I heard someone today predict that if its a Yes vote there will be protests, if its a No vote there will be riots. Over recent weeks, I have come to the conclusion that Salmond, Sturgeon&Co have no intention of trying to take the heat out of the divisions created in this debate, and that really worries me. Regardless of the result, they will indeed see the angry nationalism they have created amongst some Scots as job done.
Listening to Nicola Sturgeon's tonight in that speech, words just fail me. Today, a friends elderly father was verbally abused by two SNP supporters in the country of his birth, and last week another friend who has lived in Scotland for nearly thirty years was left shaken and upset after being subjected to a nasty verbal tirade just because of their accent. I hope that Salmond and Sturgeon are proud of the job they have done creating tension and division where they was previously none in many families or among friends Scotland.
And yes, I do blame them, just look at the way Salmond helped whip up the anger towards Nick Robinson and other journalists at the BBC over the last week for simply trying to do their jobs!
If the result is No I very much hope Salmond and Sturgeon ask their supporters to accept the democratic verdict magnanimously.
Archbishop of Canterbury: my doubts about existence of God Justin Welby says he asks himself ‘is there a God?’ and says Christians cannot explain why there is suffering in the world --------------------------- If the Archbishop can't believe in God then he can't believe in Jesus, the Son of God. Whats he doing being a Christian Archbishop in the first place? No wonder Christianity is dying in the UK.
What a fatuously stupid remark. If an Archbishop cannot question then what's he (or she) doing being Archbishop?
Or have you forgotten that Jesus, the Son of God, screamed one of the greatest questions in history from the cross?
I have. What was the question? The only quotation from the cross I can recall is 'Forgive them father' etc etc
'Forgive them father.' isn't a question.
How about:
'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?'
Christianity's greatest response to suffering comes on the cross, not as a statement, but a question, a divine disruption that echoes across time. When the world falls silent in the face of evil, moral and natural, there is a man hanging there with a ?
I didn't say I thought that quote was a question, i said it was the only quote I could recall from the cross.
I had a nasty feeling you were going to respond with that. Read back the conversation. It began with MikeL lamenting the Archbishop asking questions about his face because of suffering. You jumped in with a non sequitur.
Well forgive me for intruding upon a private matter. I was just curious what the damn question was because my religious education was lax and I didn't know the answer, I did not realise this constituted a non-sequiter, and then misread some tone of comment. One thousand apologies for such a faux pas.
Please no one comment upon my being sarcastic or unreasonable in this post you are the one specifically addressed, I don't want more non-sequiters.
I have never wanted to be as wrong about anything as I want to be wrong about tomorrow's vote.but i have never been more certain I am right. I just cannot see No winning. Scotland seems to have been enveloped by a fog of delusion, caused by justified anger at the Westminster machine and the outrageous lies of the Yes side. I truly feel for people like DavidL, seeing their country slipping away on the back of a lemming-like rush to self-destruction.
We are not beaten yet. Have faith. Scots are not stupid. At least more than 50% of them are not.
Polling station 7-10 then knocking doors. Going to be a long day.
So, you are calling Yes voters "stupid" now?
You know what? I am. To call anybody that can believe Salmond's lies stupid is actually a compliment because the alternatives are worse.
Tipping point.
So when MalcolmG a few months ago, called No voters retards, and mentally ill was that also a tipping point?
When you blocked James Kelly was a tipping point. Words cannot begin to describe the low esteem in which you are held.
James declared UDI didn't he, when he refused to abide by the rules and rulings of the site - and very publicly and proudly said so? No-one moderating could have had any choice in the matter. He basically blocked himself.
I have never wanted to be as wrong about anything as I want to be wrong about tomorrow's vote.but i have never been more certain I am right. I just cannot see No winning. Scotland seems to have been enveloped by a fog of delusion, caused by justified anger at the Westminster machine and the outrageous lies of the Yes side. I truly feel for people like DavidL, seeing their country slipping away on the back of a lemming-like rush to self-destruction.
We are not beaten yet. Have faith. Scots are not stupid. At least more than 50% of them are not.
Polling station 7-10 then knocking doors. Going to be a long day.
So, you are calling Yes voters "stupid" now?
You know what? I am. To call anybody that can believe Salmond's lies stupid is actually a compliment because the alternatives are worse.
It's not about Salmond, or even his arguments, it never has been.
It's about Scotland, and her nationhood.
I can accept that for the vanishingly few who actually think that way but their cold indifference to the suffering they will cause their fellow citizens makes me shudder. And the fact that they are so willing to lie and deceive to obtain their "principled" position is really only worthy of contempt.
It's not about the SNP and their lies.
The people of Scotland aren't stupid enough to believe the SNP and their lies.
What the people of Scotland DO like is the central vision of the SNP. An independent Scotland.
I, and some others who have long been sent away from PB, have been pointing this out for a long time. That NO need to sell a similar vision. Only Gordon Brown, in the last week, has risen to the challenge.
PS. I'm not a Scottish nationalist.
Brown's speech today made much of the lies the SNP have told about everything from the NHS to currency.
Mr. Bolger, entirely possible to feel English and British (and a Yorkshireman, if one is fortunate enough to have been born in God's Own County, the blessed land that gave the world Emperor Constantine the Great).
Did not know that Geoffrey Boycott was going by that name now...
I just came back from an rally. It was organised last minute and it was an invitation to all foreign nationals living in Edinburgh or visiting to participate and show support for a Yes vote. Thousands turned out. There were speakers from around the world including English speakers who were well received. After they finished speaking the crowd wanted more so they decided to march down the Royal Mile to the Parliament. There were families with babies, many nationalities, many working class Scots and the although the march took over the road there was no trouble, people singing out of windows to the crowd and cars caught in the throng tooted their horns and waved. There were some No signs in windows but it was a carnival atmosphere and not a nasty word was spoken and the police kept a low profile. When the crowd got to the parliament where many foreign news crews are setting up for Friday morning, many of the crews covered the impromptu gathering and the crowd repeatedly sang "Where's your cameras BBC?"
It was peaceful and democratic and passionate and there were thousands. If there is a narrow No vote, these people are not going away - you can be absolutely sure of that! The Union is over, it is just a question of when not if.
Haven't the leaders of both sides agreed that they'd consider it settled for 20-30 years.
I heard someone today predict that if its a Yes vote there will be protests, if its a No vote there will be riots. Over recent weeks, I have come to the conclusion that Salmond, Sturgeon&Co have no intention of trying to take the heat out of the divisions created in this debate, and that really worries me. Regardless of the result, they will indeed see the angry nationalism they have created amongst some Scots as job done.
Well they haven't got policies worth a toss, stirring up nationalism is all they've got, so I wouldn't expect them to stop if it's a NO vote.
Archbishop of Canterbury: my doubts about existence of God Justin Welby says he asks himself ‘is there a God?’ and says Christians cannot explain why there is suffering in the world --------------------------- If the Archbishop can't believe in God then he can't believe in Jesus, the Son of God. Whats he doing being a Christian Archbishop in the first place? No wonder Christianity is dying in the UK.
What a fatuously stupid remark. If an Archbishop cannot question then what's he (or she) doing being Archbishop?
Or have you forgotten that Jesus, the Son of God, screamed one of the greatest questions in history from the cross?
I have. What was the question? The only quotation from the cross I can recall is 'Forgive them father' etc etc
'Forgive them father.' isn't a question.
How about:
'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?'
Christianity's greatest response to suffering comes on the cross, not as a statement, but a question, a divine disruption that echoes across time. When the world falls silent in the face of evil, moral and natural, there is a man hanging there with a ?
I thought Jesus was God. Why did he need to talk to himself?
I'm assuming that's a tongue-in-cheek question as if you were three years old?
Have a look at Wolfhart Pannenberg, Jurgen Moltmann, Eberhard Jungel, Paul Fiddes and many theologians who have written on the Trinity, especially as it relates to suffering and the cross.
Let's get back to the Indy and save theology for another day.
Two more polls then?
Any convincing argument should be able to be expressed simply. If people try waving their hand towards others to make their argument for them, then it's a good sign they are on weak ground.
Tomorrow, the country I have lived in my entire life, my effectively cease to exist.
Can't really get my head around it.
The Yookay is not a country. It is a state.
The two are the same thing. Whether people choose to identify with it is another matter. That said, terminology for political units is hopelessly confused and interchangeable.
The best single test as to whether two areas are part of the same country is to ask: are both sets of residents subject to the same body of law? The answer with Scotland and the rest of the UK is a resounding no - try buying land, getting divorced, or making a will and dying, in both places. The Union was, if for that reason alone, a half-hearted stitch-up.
Archbishop of Canterbury: my doubts about existence of God Justin Welby says he asks himself ‘is there a God?’ and says Christians cannot explain why there is suffering in the world --------------------------- If the Archbishop can't believe in God then he can't believe in Jesus, the Son of God. Whats he doing being a Christian Archbishop in the first place? No wonder Christianity is dying in the UK.
I think that you are being a little harsh. Doubt is part of the Christian experience. After all Jesus is recorded as saying on the cross "Father, why have you forsaken me?"
If Jesus can have doubts, then we are in good company. Leave certainty to the fanatics.
One of the best things about the Church of England is that questioning their faith is so common. I've always thought it was a good sign that senior members of the clergy have the same doubts as their flock.
Mr Glw, yes up to a point it is. I have had many interesting conversations with my vicars over the years. However, at some point the CofE, or indeed an other church, has to say, "This is what we believe in". The CofE's problem is it has not, at least in my lifetime, ever screwed its courage to the sticking place. So now nobody really knows what it stands for or believes in.
And what has been the result of this pandering to every cause? Some years ago I was walking home from the 8 o'clock with my son and he said, "I was the only person in church without grey hair". In an attempt to be "relevant" and "modern" the CofE has rendered itself neither.
Archbishop of Canterbury: my doubts about existence of God Justin Welby says he asks himself ‘is there a God?’ and says Christians cannot explain why there is suffering in the world --------------------------- If the Archbishop can't believe in God then he can't believe in Jesus, the Son of God. Whats he doing being a Christian Archbishop in the first place? No wonder Christianity is dying in the UK.
What a fatuously stupid remark. If an Archbishop cannot question then what's he (or she) doing being Archbishop?
Or have you forgotten that Jesus, the Son of God, screamed one of the greatest questions in history from the cross?
I have. What was the question? The only quotation from the cross I can recall is 'Forgive them father' etc etc
'Forgive them father.' isn't a question.
How about:
'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?'
Christianity's greatest response to suffering comes on the cross, not as a statement, but a question, a divine disruption that echoes across time. When the world falls silent in the face of evil, moral and natural, there is a man hanging there with a ?
I thought Jesus was God. Why did he need to talk to himself?
I'm assuming that's a tongue-in-cheek question as if you were three years old?
Have a look at Wolfhart Pannenberg, Jurgen Moltmann, Eberhard Jungel, Paul Fiddes and many theologians who have written on the Trinity, especially as it relates to suffering and the cross.
Let's get back to the Indy and save theology for another day.
Two more polls then?
Any convincing argument should be able to be expressed simply. If people try waving their hand towards others to make their argument for them, then it's a good sign they are on weak ground.
No it's because I don't think this is the time or place to take you through the doctrine of the Trinity. This is a political betting site not a theology class. However, according to Christians Jesus wasn't talking to himself when he prayed. He was, for them, both human and divine, the second person of the Trinity. You know that full well, so stop being mischievous.
I have never wanted to be as wrong about anything as I want to be wrong about tomorrow's vote.but i have never been more certain I am right. I just cannot see No winning. Scotland seems to have been enveloped by a fog of delusion, caused by justified anger at the Westminster machine and the outrageous lies of the Yes side. I truly feel for people like DavidL, seeing their country slipping away on the back of a lemming-like rush to self-destruction.
We are not beaten yet. Have faith. Scots are not stupid. At least more than 50% of them are not.
Polling station 7-10 then knocking doors. Going to be a long day.
So, you are calling Yes voters "stupid" now?
You know what? I am. To call anybody that can believe Salmond's lies stupid is actually a compliment because the alternatives are worse.
It's not about Salmond, or even his arguments, it never has been.
It's about Scotland, and her nationhood.
I can accept that for the vanishingly few who actually think that way but their cold indifference to the suffering they will cause their fellow citizens makes me shudder. And the fact that they are so willing to lie and deceive to obtain their "principled" position is really only worthy of contempt.
It's not about the SNP and their lies.
The people of Scotland aren't stupid enough to believe the SNP and their lies.
What the people of Scotland DO like is the central vision of the SNP. An independent Scotland.
I, and some others who have long been sent away from PB, have been pointing this out for a long time. That NO need to sell a similar vision. Only Gordon Brown, in the last week, has risen to the challenge.
PS. I'm not a Scottish nationalist.
Brown's speech today made much of the lies the SNP have told about everything from the NHS to currency.
Indeed so.
But he didn't drone on about currency, or trident, or big business, or process, which is all the NO campaign has done until Gordon stepped in.
He sold a vision of the Union, then pulled apart the opposing vision.
It was peaceful and democratic and passionate and there were thousands. If there is a narrow No vote, these people are not going away - you can be absolutely sure of that! The Union is over, it is just a question of when not if.
It's reassuring to see that the nationalists only believe in their ludicrous myth of the "sovereign will of the Scottish people" when that will coincides with their views.
I just came back from an rally. It was organised last minute and it was an invitation to all foreign nationals living in Edinburgh or visiting to participate and show support for a Yes vote. Thousands turned out. There were speakers from around the world including English speakers who were well received. After they finished speaking the crowd wanted more so they decided to march down the Royal Mile to the Parliament. There were families with babies, many nationalities, many working class Scots and the although the march took over the road there was no trouble, people singing out of windows to the crowd and cars caught in the throng tooted their horns and waved. There were some No signs in windows but it was a carnival atmosphere and not a nasty word was spoken and the police kept a low profile. When the crowd got to the parliament where many foreign news crews are setting up for Friday morning, many of the crews covered the impromptu gathering and the crowd repeatedly sang "Where's your cameras BBC?"
It was peaceful and democratic and passionate and there were thousands. If there is a narrow No vote, these people are not going away - you can be absolutely sure of that! The Union is over, it is just a question of when not if.
Haven't the leaders of both sides agreed that they'd consider it settled for 20-30 years.
Hahahahahaha.
Yes they have. But with such a narrow margin expected either way, even if the leaderships wanted to, the issue will rumble on too intensely to let the question slide for too long. I doubt talk of when the question would be put again would come up for a couple of years, but it shouldn't think it will take as long as 20 before another vote was taken. Human nature to fight it again when it was so close. The suggestion that the vote be retaken over and over every few years until one side wins by a clear and substantial margin is unlikely and terrifying, but has some merit.
But I am not feeling well this evening, so I shall take my leave for now. Here's hoping the negotiations so not get too rancorous when Yes win this thing.
I have never wanted to be as wrong about anything as I want to be wrong about tomorrow's vote.but i have never been more certain I am right. I just cannot see No winning. Scotland seems to have been enveloped by a fog of delusion, caused by justified anger at the Westminster machine and the outrageous lies of the Yes side. I truly feel for people like DavidL, seeing their country slipping away on the back of a lemming-like rush to self-destruction.
We are not beaten yet. Have faith. Scots are not stupid. At least more than 50% of them are not.
Polling station 7-10 then knocking doors. Going to be a long day.
So, you are calling Yes voters "stupid" now?
You know what? I am. To call anybody that can believe Salmond's lies stupid is actually a compliment because the alternatives are worse.
It's not about Salmond, or even his arguments, it never has been.
It's about Scotland, and her nationhood.
I can accept that for the vanishingly few who actually think that way but their cold indifference to the suffering they will cause their fellow citizens makes me shudder. And the fact that they are so willing to lie and deceive to obtain their "principled" position is really only worthy of contempt.
And what about the lies being told by the Unionists? That infamous 'vow' from yesterday and the lies today from Alexander about EVEL.
Both sides have lied to further their aims. They are politicians after all it is what they do.
To try and pretend this is any different to the lies they tell every day to further their aims and do us all harm or that they would ever behave any differently is naive in the extreme.
I suspect you are just upset because Salmond might prove to be better at it than his opponents.
There is no doubt that Salmond is a world class liar. He knows he'll be found out but he does not care because he knows it will be too late.
Archbishop of Canterbury: my doubts about existence of God Justin Welby says he asks himself ‘is there a God?’ and says Christians cannot explain why there is suffering in the world --------------------------- If the Archbishop can't believe in God then he can't believe in Jesus, the Son of God. Whats he doing being a Christian Archbishop in the first place? No wonder Christianity is dying in the UK.
I thought Jesus was God. Why did he need to talk to himself?
I'm assuming that's a tongue-in-cheek question as if you were three years old?
Have a look at Wolfhart Pannenberg, Jurgen Moltmann, Eberhard Jungel, Paul Fiddes and many theologians who have written on the Trinity, especially as it relates to suffering and the cross.
Let's get back to the Indy and save theology for another day.
Two more polls then?
Any convincing argument should be able to be expressed simply. If people try waving their hand towards others to make their argument for them, then it's a good sign they are on weak ground.
No it's because I don't think this is the time or place to take you through the doctrine of the Trinity. This is a political betting site not a theology class. However, according to Christians Jesus wasn't talking to himself when he prayed. He was, for them, both human and divine, the second person of the Trinity. You know that full well, so stop being mischievous.
This website has long been an open forum where lots of different matters are discussed. I'm aware of the concept of the Trinity. I just don't think the concept works when you actually question it. If he was both human and divine, couldn't the divine aspect of him know why God had forsaken him? Seeing that he was that God and alll...
3AM/5AM 19/9 11/10 After 5AM 19/9 7/4 Before 3AM 19/9 5/2
Surely it's going to be much later than that? I really don't put much store in these estimated declaration times which have been claiming most councils will be done and dusted by 6am, given the expected turnouts. Even at the last general election, the declaration times were majorly delayed with a not-so-overwhelming 65% turnout.
It was peaceful and democratic and passionate and there were thousands. If there is a narrow No vote, these people are not going away - you can be absolutely sure of that! The Union is over, it is just a question of when not if.
Haven't the leaders of both sides agreed that they'd consider it settled for 20-30 years.
The Scottish people can have a referendum any time they want. No-one can tell them otherwise, leaders or not. This campaign has separated many voters from the Labour party meaning the chance of another landslide for pro-independence parties is high. Add into the mix the threat of the UK leaving either the EU or the Council of Europe and various other political and economic events and the call for another quite soon is not beyond imagination. Salmond was careful to say that he would not call one and that it was only his opinion that another would not be called for..
Tomorrow, the country I have lived in my entire life, my effectively cease to exist.
Can't really get my head around it.
The Yookay is not a country. It is a state.
Meaningless semantics. The UK has been my country since I was born. We are all animals on this planet -pretending that your frame of reference has any greater meaning than someone else's is idiotic.
Archbishop of Canterbury: my doubts about existence of God Justin Welby says he asks himself ‘is there a God?’ and says Christians cannot explain why there is suffering in the world --------------------------- If the Archbishop can't believe in God then he can't believe in Jesus, the Son of God. Whats he doing being a Christian Archbishop in the first place? No wonder Christianity is dying in the UK.
I thought Jesus was God. Why did he need to talk to himself?
I'm assuming that's a tongue-in-cheek question as if you were three years old?
Have a look at Wolfhart Pannenberg, Jurgen Moltmann, Eberhard Jungel, Paul Fiddes and many theologians who have written on the Trinity, especially as it relates to suffering and the cross.
Let's get back to the Indy and save theology for another day.
Two more polls then?
Any convincing argument should be able to be expressed simply. If people try waving their hand towards others to make their argument for them, then it's a good sign they are on weak ground.
No it's because I don't think this is the time or place to take you through the doctrine of the Trinity. This is a political betting site not a theology class. However, according to Christians Jesus wasn't talking to himself when he prayed. He was, for them, both human and divine, the second person of the Trinity. You know that full well, so stop being mischievous.
This website has long been an open forum where lots of different matters are discussed. I'm aware of the concept of the Trinity. I just don't think the concept works when you actually question it. If he was both human and divine, couldn't the divine aspect of him know why God had forsaken him? Seeing that he was that God and alll...
Nor, as it happens, ultimately do I but I still think it's damned impressive which is probably why I wrote my PhD thesis on it.
It was peaceful and democratic and passionate and there were thousands. If there is a narrow No vote, these people are not going away - you can be absolutely sure of that! The Union is over, it is just a question of when not if.
Haven't the leaders of both sides agreed that they'd consider it settled for 20-30 years.
The Scottish people can have a referendum any time they want. No-one can tell them otherwise, leaders or not. This campaign has separated many voters from the Labour party meaning the chance of another landslide for pro-independence parties is high. Add into the mix the threat of the UK leaving either the EU or the Council of Europe and various other political and economic events and the call for another quite soon is not beyond imagination. Salmond was careful to say that he would not call one and that it was only his opinion that another would not be called for..
Meh. It'll be twenty five years before we have another referendum. In the meantime we can sort out the Barnett nonsense so us in the South East stop subsidising higher spending levels north of Berwick.
Archbishop of Canterbury: my doubts about existence of God Justin Welby says he asks himself ‘is there a God?’ and says Christians cannot explain why there is suffering in the world --------------------------- If the Archbishop can't believe in God then he can't believe in Jesus, the Son of God. Whats he doing being a Christian Archbishop in the first place? No wonder Christianity is dying in the UK.
I thought Jesus was God. Why did he need to talk to himself?
I'm assuming that's a tongue-in-cheek question as if you were three years old?
Have a look at Wolfhart Pannenberg, Jurgen Moltmann, Eberhard Jungel, Paul Fiddes and many theologians who have written on the Trinity, especially as it relates to suffering and the cross.
Let's get back to the Indy and save theology for another day.
Two more polls then?
Any convincing argument should be able to be expressed simply. If people try waving their hand towards others to make their argument for them, then it's a good sign they are on weak ground.
No it's because I don't think this is the time or place to take you through the doctrine of the Trinity. This is a political betting site not a theology class. However, according to Christians Jesus wasn't talking to himself when he prayed. He was, for them, both human and divine, the second person of the Trinity. You know that full well, so stop being mischievous.
This website has long been an open forum where lots of different matters are discussed. I'm aware of the concept of the Trinity. I just don't think the concept works when you actually question it. If he was both human and divine, couldn't the divine aspect of him know why God had forsaken him? Seeing that he was that God and alll...
Ugh! Next you'll be getting into the nature of the host in Communion...
Tom Newton Dunn @tnewtondunn 9s EXCL: Britain will hold together - but only just, YouGov/Sun poll on #indyref tonight predicts; No 52%, Yes 48% (1/5) http://bit.ly/1qZqNeb
And actually was the Empire technically anything other than India - afaik the monarch was only ever Emperor/ress of there, not any of the colonies and dominions?
Mr. Owls, if Yes win then the next election is blown wide open. [Except for the Lib Dems being massacred. To avoid that they'd need Nick Clegg to be replaced by Jesus, and even then he'd need to break out the miracles].
Archbishop of Canterbury: my doubts about existence of God Justin Welby says he asks himself ‘is there a God?’ and says Christians cannot explain why there is suffering in the world --------------------------- If the Archbishop can't believe in God then he can't believe in Jesus, the Son of God. Whats he doing being a Christian Archbishop in the first place? No wonder Christianity is dying in the UK.
I thought Jesus was God. Why did he need to talk to himself?
I'm assuming that's a tongue-in-cheek question as if you were three years old?
Have a look at Wolfhart Pannenberg, Jurgen Moltmann, Eberhard Jungel, Paul Fiddes and many theologians who have written on the Trinity, especially as it relates to suffering and the cross.
Let's get back to the Indy and save theology for another day.
Two more polls then?
Any convincing argument should be able to be expressed simply. If people try waving their hand towards others to make their argument for them, then it's a good sign they are on weak ground.
No it's because I don't think this is the time or place to take you through the doctrine of the Trinity. This is a political betting site not a theology class. However, according to Christians Jesus wasn't talking to himself when he prayed. He was, for them, both human and divine, the second person of the Trinity. You know that full well, so stop being mischievous.
This website has long been an open forum where lots of different matters are discussed. I'm aware of the concept of the Trinity. I just don't think the concept works when you actually question it. If he was both human and divine, couldn't the divine aspect of him know why God had forsaken him? Seeing that he was that God and alll...
What a shame you weren't around when St Augustin and Thomas Aquinas were writing -it would have saved them so much time and effort if you'd been around to tell them the concept doesn't work when you actually question it.
Tom Newton Dunn@tnewtondunn·36 secs …and a stinker for Labour; Cameron now marginally more trusted than Ed Miliband in Scotland, by 26% to 25% (5/5) http://bit.ly/1qZqNeb
A YES vote is likely to create so much bitterness. This will not be a 'velvet' transition, but a hard fought nasty one which will damage these islands for a long time to come. Not sure a NO vote is much better as the likely English backlash to devomax will be very divisive.
It was peaceful and democratic and passionate and there were thousands. If there is a narrow No vote, these people are not going away - you can be absolutely sure of that! The Union is over, it is just a question of when not if.
Haven't the leaders of both sides agreed that they'd consider it settled for 20-30 years.
The Scottish people can have a referendum any time they want. No-one can tell them otherwise, leaders or not. This campaign has separated many voters from the Labour party meaning the chance of another landslide for pro-independence parties is high. Add into the mix the threat of the UK leaving either the EU or the Council of Europe and various other political and economic events and the call for another quite soon is not beyond imagination. Salmond was careful to say that he would not call one and that it was only his opinion that another would not be called for..
Meh. It'll be twenty five years before we have another referendum. In the meantime we can sort out the Barnett nonsense so us in the South East stop subsidising higher spending levels north of Berwick.
The next Lib/Lab coalition government in Holyrood should change the electoral system to STV (as in the local elections) so this can never happen again. Given the way Scotland is tearing itself apart perhaps there is something to be said for political apathy after all.
A YES vote is likely to create so much bitterness. This will not be a 'velvet' transition, but a hard fought nasty one which will damage these islands for a long time to come. Not sure a NO vote is much better as the likely English backlash to devomax will be very divisive.
Been out all evening, sorry I didn't reply to earlier posts on EVFEL - thanks. Got to dash (again) as I'm at my sister's birthday now. I will revisit again on Friday once it's all calmed down, hopefully.
All I will say is, based on the experience of Quebec 1995, where YES held notable leads in the final polls, I think we can be fairly confident the Union will hold now. But it should never have been this close. Only two polls showing a YES lead from the whole damn lot? Not good enough. GOTV can't compensate for that.
A series unforced and totally unnecessary stupid errors by the Union campaign have brought us to the very edge of a precipice.
Tom Newton Dunn@tnewtondunn·36 secs …and a stinker for Labour; Cameron now marginally more trusted than Ed Miliband in Scotland, by 26% to 25% (5/5) http://bit.ly/1qZqNeb
Although obviously minor compared with the question of whether the UK is about to break up, the collapse of Scottish Labour and the failure of Ed M to connect with his core vote there is a remarkable side-show.
Comments
Please no one comment upon my being sarcastic or unreasonable in this post you are the one specifically addressed, I don't want more non-sequiters.
3AM/5AM 19/9 11/10
After 5AM 19/9 7/4
Before 3AM 19/9 5/2
I hope for a No tomorrow. Breaking up the UK seems so pointless.
It's devomacs (No) or austeritymacs (Yes).
I fear the worst.
And what has been the result of this pandering to every cause? Some years ago I was walking home from the 8 o'clock with my son and he said, "I was the only person in church without grey hair". In an attempt to be "relevant" and "modern" the CofE has rendered itself neither.
Mr. X, the world should consider itself lucky the UK didn't put the effort in, then!:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Empire#mediaviewer/File:The_British_Empire.png
But he didn't drone on about currency, or trident, or big business, or process, which is all the NO campaign has done until Gordon stepped in.
He sold a vision of the Union, then pulled apart the opposing vision.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/english-tourists-cancelling-holidays-to-scotland-1-3544968#.VBnCfo5JBzk.twitter
Yes they have. But with such a narrow margin expected either way, even if the leaderships wanted to, the issue will rumble on too intensely to let the question slide for too long. I doubt talk of when the question would be put again would come up for a couple of years, but it shouldn't think it will take as long as 20 before another vote was taken. Human nature to fight it again when it was so close. The suggestion that the vote be retaken over and over every few years until one side wins by a clear and substantial margin is unlikely and terrifying, but has some merit.
But I am not feeling well this evening, so I shall take my leave for now. Here's hoping the negotiations so not get too rancorous when Yes win this thing.
http://www.freemaptools.com/measure-distance.htm
I'm not seeing many that are keen to stay together with such a half hearted associate as Scotland.
David Cameron's speech about sunlight that time was good too.
YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead remains three points: CON 33%, LAB 36%, LD 8%, UKIP 13%, GRN 5%
The Scottish people can have a referendum any time they want. No-one can tell them otherwise, leaders or not. This campaign has separated many voters from the Labour party meaning the chance of another landslide for pro-independence parties is high. Add into the mix the threat of the UK leaving either the EU or the Council of Europe and various other political and economic events and the call for another quite soon is not beyond imagination. Salmond was careful to say that he would not call one and that it was only his opinion that another would not be called for..
Back to Indy?
Meh. It'll be twenty five years before we have another referendum. In the meantime we can sort out the Barnett nonsense so us in the South East stop subsidising higher spending levels north of Berwick.
EICIPM
Michael Vaughan @MichaelVaughan ·
15000 Indians booed a very proud English player in Moeen Ali who happens to be a Muslim and the @ECB_cricket did nothing..... #Justsaying
EXCL: Britain will hold together - but only just, YouGov/Sun poll on #indyref tonight predicts; No 52%, Yes 48% (1/5) http://bit.ly/1qZqNeb
And actually was the Empire technically anything other than India - afaik the monarch was only ever Emperor/ress of there, not any of the colonies and dominions?
FINAL poll is a Telephone poll conducted over the last 24 hours, completed at 9pm tonight. Headlines figs NO 53 YES 47. NO 48 YES 43 DK 9
YouGov ducks the question!
No way every poll is wrong by enough of a margin for Yes to win.
Tom Newton Dunn@tnewtondunn·36 secs
…and a stinker for Labour; Cameron now marginally more trusted than Ed Miliband in Scotland, by 26% to 25% (5/5) http://bit.ly/1qZqNeb
Neil Oliver has come out in favour of the Union..
He's got nearly 15,000 likes in an hour on Facebook. For BT/No that's nuts.
I hope Arkell vs Pressdram is the result for Mr Salmond.
All I will say is, based on the experience of Quebec 1995, where YES held notable leads in the final polls, I think we can be fairly confident the Union will hold now. But it should never have been this close. Only two polls showing a YES lead from the whole damn lot? Not good enough. GOTV can't compensate for that.
A series unforced and totally unnecessary stupid errors by the Union campaign have brought us to the very edge of a precipice.
What politics should always be like.