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  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    edited September 2014
    Listening to Nicola Sturgeon's tonight in that speech, words just fail me. Today, a friends elderly father was verbally abused by two SNP supporters in the country of his birth, and last week another friend who has lived in Scotland for nearly thirty years was left shaken and upset after being subjected to a nasty verbal tirade just because of their accent. I hope that Salmond and Sturgeon are proud of the job they have done creating tension and division where they was previously none in many families or among friends Scotland.

    And yes, I do blame them, just look at the way Salmond helped whip up the anger towards Nick Robinson and other journalists at the BBC over the last week for simply trying to do their jobs!
  • HughHugh Posts: 955

    Hugh said:

    I have never wanted to be as wrong about anything as I want to be wrong about tomorrow's vote.but i have never been more certain I am right. I just cannot see No winning. Scotland seems to have been enveloped by a fog of delusion, caused by justified anger at the Westminster machine and the outrageous lies of the Yes side. I truly feel for people like DavidL, seeing their country slipping away on the back of a lemming-like rush to self-destruction.

    It's not "delusion". It's enthusiasm, realism and optimism.

    It's a breath of fresh air, and it is great to see ordinary folk cause complete turmoil and confusion amongst the rightwing Establishment.

    There's nothing refreshing about seeing people being lied to about issues that are fundamental to their economic prospects by nationalists whose primary aim is to create an international frontier and divisions. The establishment will be mildly discomfited, some political careers will end, but things will basically carry on as before - except the UK will have been torn asunder and most Scots will have significantly lower living standards. Hilarious!

    People haven't been "lied to", don't be daft. That implies the electorate are gullible or dumb.

    Nationalists have put forward a vision, and the people of Scotland have liked it.

    Voters are intelligent enough to realise that the transition to independence may not be smooth, the tractor stats might dip for a while, but they don't care. The end result is worth it.

    That's what no-one in the No campaign has understood until Gordon decided he'd had enough of their crap and would step in.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    William Hill - Council area with highest No vote %

    Dumfries and Galloway 5/1
    East Renfrewshire 5/1
    South Ayrshire 5/1
    Borders 7/1
    East Dunbartonshire 7/1
    Orkney 9/1
    Shetland 9/1
    Edinburgh 12/1
    Renfrewshire 14/1
    East Lothian 16/1

    I've always thought it would be Shetland.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    AndyJS said:

    Pulpstar said:

    AndyJS said:

    , assuming Labour can't win a majority, which is the view of most experts.

    "Most experts" ?!
    Peter Kellner, Stephen Fisher, etc.
    Lol. Stephen Fisher hasn't given a view, he's specifically said so that his model is a model and not his view ^_~ Right now his model has a very real chance of a Labour majority.


  • Well I have plenty of idea what it is like 'up here' having been wandering around Aberdeen today. No sign at all of the idiocy you describe and I am firmly of the opinion that these incidents are very rare and being highlighted by the press to make it seem like it is the norm.

    It isn't and you should stop trying to pretend otherwise.

    You may well be right about other places - I can only speak for where I live. And it is a I describe. I can vouch for it and I am not pretending. Your last comment is, frankly, an ignorant insult.

    Your "You folks down south have no idea of what it is like up here." is the real insult and shows you are trying to smear the Yes campaign by painting incredibly rare isolated incidents as if they are the norm.

    It is shameful, malicious and ignorant.

    I have done no such thing. I have described what has happened here, in the town where I live. Do you live here? I have no idea what is happening in other parts of the country as I do not live there. You are the one who decided to trade insults. Suggest you leave off.


    Nope. As long as you persist in trying to paint a false impression of what is happening in Scotland I will happily continue to point out your dishonesty. Feel free to say what you see and know. Don't pretend it is symptomatic of the rest of the campaign.


    You really have a problem comprehending English, don't you. I related an incident here where I live and did not "pretend it is symptomatic of the rest of the campaign." - although some of the reported surveys in the media suggest that a large proportion of No voters do feel intimidated. No doubt they are dishonest too though.

    "You folks down south have no idea of what it is like up here."

    Your words or not?

    Stop wriggling and admit you were smearing.

    IE - folks down south have no idea that incidents like this are happening up here. Which they are. As I have just experienced such an incident (or rather the upset lady on the other end of my phone has just experienced it). How widespread, no idea. I sincerely hope not.

    This, by the way, was reported in The Guardian livefeed: "Getting on for half of no voters have felt “personally threatened” by the yes campaign, according to a poll of 3,000 voters by YouGov for BuzzFeed."

    Lot of smearing going on.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11102371/Archbishop-of-Canterbury-my-doubts-about-existence-of-God.html?utm_content=buffer04c5d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

    Archbishop of Canterbury: my doubts about existence of God
    Justin Welby says he asks himself ‘is there a God?’ and says Christians cannot explain why there is suffering in the world
    ---------------------------
    If the Archbishop can't believe in God then he can't believe in Jesus, the Son of God.
    Whats he doing being a Christian Archbishop in the first place? No wonder Christianity is dying in the UK.

  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    IOS said:

    Tomorrow, the country I have lived in my entire life, my effectively cease to exist.

    Can't really get my head around it.

    Which country? The uk?

    Until the last week or two I can't remember anyone saying they were from the United Kingdom
    That depends on what circles you move in I guess. Of course many of us use Britain as a synonym for the UK, as in TeamGB, excluding the oft forgotten northern Irish.

    And of course UKIP are to be thanked for reminding everyone that they fight for the United Kingdom with their name every time it is spoken or written.
    I think expats are far more used to using UK than other names for Britain. I always say I am British, and always refer to UK, have done for decades.
  • audreyanneaudreyanne Posts: 1,376
    edited September 2014

    IOS said:

    Tomorrow, the country I have lived in my entire life, my effectively cease to exist.

    Can't really get my head around it.

    I can't get my head around why so few people outside Scotland seem to care.

    I suppose this is what happens when you're the only country in Europe that doesn't teach all its children history in school.
    Speaking for myself it's because it isn't very relevant besides the world's bigger problems: ISIL, Putin, Ebola, Aids and a host of others that make the decision whether an outlier of these isles goes from devolved to independent pretty unimportant.
  • IOSIOS Posts: 1,450
    Antifrank

    The problem is that the electorate are not yet willing to accept a "postcode" lottery. Any form of devolution will create areas that do better at certain things and others that do worse. Yes, that is not great for people in the "worse" areas but, for me at least, it is an article of faith that this competition will mean that all ships rise with the tide. Providing we have an engaged electorate, which is something I believe you would get more off if local decisions really mattered.

  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376
    Any sign of which way Rupert's breaking?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Watching Ed justify why the Scottish 53 should prop up his government is going to be some contortionist act..
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014

    DavidL said:

    I have never wanted to be as wrong about anything as I want to be wrong about tomorrow's vote.but i have never been more certain I am right. I just cannot see No winning. Scotland seems to have been enveloped by a fog of delusion, caused by justified anger at the Westminster machine and the outrageous lies of the Yes side. I truly feel for people like DavidL, seeing their country slipping away on the back of a lemming-like rush to self-destruction.

    We are not beaten yet. Have faith. Scots are not stupid. At least more than 50% of them are not.

    Polling station 7-10 then knocking doors. Going to be a long day.
    You wearing your Labour NO badge David?

    Not today. I was wearing no thanks badges and never actually mentioned Labour.

    But I will if necessary tomorrow. This is far, far more important than party politics for me.
  • We're getting a Survation phone poll for the Daily Record tonight
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,808

    I'm going to call it for Yes.

    I have a feeling the Yes momentum and desire for change has been horribly underestimated by the pollsters.

    Me too. I hope we're wrong, but having been born and lived in Scotland for a fair chunk of my life, it's a gut feeling.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    Hugh said:

    I have never wanted to be as wrong about anything as I want to be wrong about tomorrow's vote.but i have never been more certain I am right. I just cannot see No winning. Scotland seems to have been enveloped by a fog of delusion, caused by justified anger at the Westminster machine and the outrageous lies of the Yes side. I truly feel for people like DavidL, seeing their country slipping away on the back of a lemming-like rush to self-destruction.

    It's not "delusion". It's enthusiasm, realism and optimism.

    It's a breath of fresh air, and it is great to see ordinary folk cause complete turmoil and confusion amongst the rightwing Establishment.
    All fine and dandy but what if much of the "scaremongering" proves to be accurate? If YES wins I am quite looking forward to watching how it pans out (happily from the relative safety of being south of the border)
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    MikeK said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11102371/Archbishop-of-Canterbury-my-doubts-about-existence-of-God.html?utm_content=buffer04c5d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

    Archbishop of Canterbury: my doubts about existence of God
    Justin Welby says he asks himself ‘is there a God?’ and says Christians cannot explain why there is suffering in the world
    ---------------------------
    If the Archbishop can't believe in God then he can't believe in Jesus, the Son of God.
    Whats he doing being a Christian Archbishop in the first place? No wonder Christianity is dying in the UK.

    I think that you are being a little harsh. Doubt is part of the Christian experience.
    After all Jesus is recorded as saying on the cross "Father, why have you forsaken me?"

    If Jesus can have doubts, then we are in good company. Leave certainty to the fanatics.
  • audreyanneaudreyanne Posts: 1,376
    MikeK said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11102371/Archbishop-of-Canterbury-my-doubts-about-existence-of-God.html?utm_content=buffer04c5d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

    Archbishop of Canterbury: my doubts about existence of God
    Justin Welby says he asks himself ‘is there a God?’ and says Christians cannot explain why there is suffering in the world
    ---------------------------
    If the Archbishop can't believe in God then he can't believe in Jesus, the Son of God.
    Whats he doing being a Christian Archbishop in the first place? No wonder Christianity is dying in the UK.

    What a fatuously stupid remark. If an Archbishop cannot question then what's he (or she) doing being Archbishop?

    Or have you forgotten that Jesus, the Son of God, screamed one of the greatest questions in history from the cross?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    IOS said:

    Tomorrow, the country I have lived in my entire life, my effectively cease to exist.

    Can't really get my head around it.

    Which country? The uk?

    Until the last week or two I can't remember anyone saying they were from the United Kingdom
    That depends on what circles you move in I guess. Of course many of us use Britain as a synonym for the UK, as in TeamGB, excluding the oft forgotten northern Irish.

    And of course UKIP are to be thanked for reminding everyone that they fight for the United Kingdom with their name every time it is spoken or written.
    Wouldn't even cross my mind to say British, each to their own
    My instinctive approach is while in the UK I would say English, as odds are anyone else asking will be British as well, but abroad I would specify British, English Variant
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "46% of No voters say they have felt personally threatened by the Yes campaign at some point - BuzzFeed/YouGov poll: buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/sc…"

    https://mobile.twitter.com/flashboy
  • Best prices - Fife result

    No 1/3 (Shadsy)
    Yes 5/2 (PP)
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Yes mongs climbing on the cenotaph in George Sq - scum.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,808
    TGOHF said:

    Watching Ed justify why the Scottish 53 should prop up his government is going to be some contortionist act..

    Can't you just bury your petty hatred for 48 hours?
  • I identify myself as English. As much as sympathise with the DavidL's and Fitalass's of this parish, unshackling from the increasingly socially, economically and culturally incompatible deadweight of Scotland will be a long term strategic win for England. Fingers crossed for Yes.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    MikeK said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11102371/Archbishop-of-Canterbury-my-doubts-about-existence-of-God.html?utm_content=buffer04c5d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

    Archbishop of Canterbury: my doubts about existence of God
    Justin Welby says he asks himself ‘is there a God?’ and says Christians cannot explain why there is suffering in the world
    ---------------------------
    If the Archbishop can't believe in God then he can't believe in Jesus, the Son of God.
    Whats he doing being a Christian Archbishop in the first place? No wonder Christianity is dying in the UK.

    It's a fundamental requirement for Archbishops of Canterbury to have grave doubts about the existence of God.
  • Ladbrokes - Highland result

    No 2/5
    Yes 7/4
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    I'll offer an honest bet with you.

    Mr Llama - Maybe....lets talk again when the result is in? might be academic
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014

    DavidL said:

    I have never wanted to be as wrong about anything as I want to be wrong about tomorrow's vote.but i have never been more certain I am right. I just cannot see No winning. Scotland seems to have been enveloped by a fog of delusion, caused by justified anger at the Westminster machine and the outrageous lies of the Yes side. I truly feel for people like DavidL, seeing their country slipping away on the back of a lemming-like rush to self-destruction.

    We are not beaten yet. Have faith. Scots are not stupid. At least more than 50% of them are not.

    Polling station 7-10 then knocking doors. Going to be a long day.
    So, you are calling Yes voters "stupid" now?
    You know what? I am. To call anybody that can believe Salmond's lies stupid is actually a compliment because the alternatives are worse.
  • Miss Fitalass, sorry to hear that, but sadly not surprised.

    Mr. K, I'm not a fan of the archsocialist, but if he's expressing doubt that's not inconsistent with belief. Faith has to include an element of doubt, otherwise you're just acknowledging a self-evident fact. Nobody has belief or faith in gravity, because it's obviously extant.
  • Best prices - Glasgow result

    Yes 8/11 (Shadsy)
    No 6/5 (PP)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578

    IOS said:

    Tomorrow, the country I have lived in my entire life, my effectively cease to exist.

    Can't really get my head around it.

    I can't get my head around why so few people outside Scotland seem to care.

    I suppose this is what happens when you're the only country in Europe that doesn't teach all its children history in school.
    Speaking for myself it's because it isn't very relevant besides the world's bigger problems: ISIL, Putin, Ebola, Aids and a host of others that make the decision whether an outlier of these isles goes from devolved to independent pretty unimportant.
    What country you are a part of is pretty darn important even with all the threats in the world, as it is part of the context of how you will see the world and the world will see you. People need not feel an obligation to get themselves all aflutter about like me and other political wonks, that is entirely their choice, but it is relevant to them regardless.
  • RodCrosby said:

    YES into 4.5...

    I saw that you were (I think narrowly, Although I now can't check) backing Yes.

    If you can be bothered, I'd be interested to know your reasoning.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    Ladbrokes - Highland result

    No 2/5
    Yes 7/4

    If Yes are going to win Highland there must be an awful lot of LD voters going against the position of their party.
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I have never wanted to be as wrong about anything as I want to be wrong about tomorrow's vote.but i have never been more certain I am right. I just cannot see No winning. Scotland seems to have been enveloped by a fog of delusion, caused by justified anger at the Westminster machine and the outrageous lies of the Yes side. I truly feel for people like DavidL, seeing their country slipping away on the back of a lemming-like rush to self-destruction.

    We are not beaten yet. Have faith. Scots are not stupid. At least more than 50% of them are not.

    Polling station 7-10 then knocking doors. Going to be a long day.
    So, you are calling Yes voters "stupid" now?
    You know what? I am. To call anybody that can believe Salmond's lies stupid is actually a compliment because the alternatives are worse.
    Tipping point.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    taffys said:

    It's Wednesday. Wait until Friday. If it's relevant then.

    That is what the tory whips are desperately telling their troops.

    I am not a Tory but regardless of how the vote goes tomorrow I think there will be a hell of a political backlash in rUK. Personally I think it's now best all round if Scotland leaves, people are going to have very long memories about what has been said and done over recent months and I suspect Tory backbenchers are not the only ones biting their tongues for the moment.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578

    MikeK said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11102371/Archbishop-of-Canterbury-my-doubts-about-existence-of-God.html?utm_content=buffer04c5d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

    Archbishop of Canterbury: my doubts about existence of God
    Justin Welby says he asks himself ‘is there a God?’ and says Christians cannot explain why there is suffering in the world
    ---------------------------
    If the Archbishop can't believe in God then he can't believe in Jesus, the Son of God.
    Whats he doing being a Christian Archbishop in the first place? No wonder Christianity is dying in the UK.

    What a fatuously stupid remark. If an Archbishop cannot question then what's he (or she) doing being Archbishop?

    Or have you forgotten that Jesus, the Son of God, screamed one of the greatest questions in history from the cross?
    I have. What was the question? The only quotation from the cross I can recall is 'Forgive them father' etc etc
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I have never wanted to be as wrong about anything as I want to be wrong about tomorrow's vote.but i have never been more certain I am right. I just cannot see No winning. Scotland seems to have been enveloped by a fog of delusion, caused by justified anger at the Westminster machine and the outrageous lies of the Yes side. I truly feel for people like DavidL, seeing their country slipping away on the back of a lemming-like rush to self-destruction.

    We are not beaten yet. Have faith. Scots are not stupid. At least more than 50% of them are not.

    Polling station 7-10 then knocking doors. Going to be a long day.
    So, you are calling Yes voters "stupid" now?
    You know what? I am. To call anybody that can believe Salmond's lies stupid is actually a compliment because the alternatives are worse.
    Tipping point.
    So when MalcolmG a few months ago, called No voters retards, and mentally ill was that also a tipping point?
  • HughHugh Posts: 955
    fitalass said:

    Listening to Nicola Sturgeon's tonight in that speech, words just fail me. Today, a friends elderly father was verbally abused by two SNP supporters in the country of his birth, and last week another friend who has lived in Scotland for nearly thirty years was left shaken and upset after being subjected to a nasty verbal tirade just because of their accent. I hope that Salmond and Sturgeon are proud of the job they have done creating tension and division where they was previously none in many families or among friends Scotland.

    And yes, I do blame them, just look at the way Salmond helped whip up the anger towards Nick Robinson and other journalists at the BBC over the last week for simply trying to do their jobs!

    Simper simper, nasty nats, please don't hurt Dave, simper...
  • Mr. Bolger, entirely possible to feel English and British (and a Yorkshireman, if one is fortunate enough to have been born in God's Own County, the blessed land that gave the world Emperor Constantine the Great).
  • AndyJS said:

    William Hill - Council area with highest No vote %

    Dumfries and Galloway 5/1
    East Renfrewshire 5/1
    South Ayrshire 5/1
    Borders 7/1
    East Dunbartonshire 7/1
    Orkney 9/1
    Shetland 9/1
    Edinburgh 12/1
    Renfrewshire 14/1
    East Lothian 16/1

    I've always thought it would be Shetland.
    Profoundly unlikely.

    Our canvass results in Shetland have been truly outstanding (and highly unexpected), and then this happened:

    http://www.shetnews.co.uk/features/scottish-independence-debate/9293-shetland-news-says-yes-to-independence
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    fitalass said:

    Listening to Nicola Sturgeon's tonight in that speech, words just fail me. Today, a friends elderly father was verbally abused by two SNP supporters in the country of his birth, and last week another friend who has lived in Scotland for nearly thirty years was left shaken and upset after being subjected to a nasty verbal tirade just because of their accent. I hope that Salmond and Sturgeon are proud of the job they have done creating tension and division where they was previously none in many families or among friends Scotland.

    And yes, I do blame them, just look at the way Salmond helped whip up the anger towards Nick Robinson and other journalists at the BBC over the last week for simply trying to do their jobs!

    If the result is No I very much hope Salmond and Sturgeon ask their supporters to accept the democratic verdict magnanimously.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    GIN1138 said:

    Any sign of which way Rupert's breaking?

    Following the weather.
  • IOSIOS Posts: 1,450
    Go on then Stuart.

    What result %'s are you going for.
  • Incidentally, I must've been asleep or actually doing some work when the trend started, but what is this tipping point nonsense about? Is there a pb nocturnal excursion planned, during which the primary activity will be cow tipping?
  • IOS said:

    Antifrank

    We don't need a separate English parliament. We just need to find a way of making sure Westminster can accommodate English only votes. We also need a massive dose of local government devolution.

    We do indeed need a massive dose of devolution in England. But the smaller the scale of the authority you vest the devolved powers in, the harder it is to make it massive. Although I agree that local government is unduly restricted, it's not practicable to devolve anything approaching the powers Scotland or Wales have to hundreds of counties/met districts/unitaries/London boroughs all to take the same sort of decisions taken by the Scottish Parliament. That's why the various options for regional government are being talked of seriously again, broadly equivalent to the scale at which devolution has taken place in England and Wales, because it would allow a greater transfer of power from Whitehall than under any other model.
  • HughHugh Posts: 955
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I have never wanted to be as wrong about anything as I want to be wrong about tomorrow's vote.but i have never been more certain I am right. I just cannot see No winning. Scotland seems to have been enveloped by a fog of delusion, caused by justified anger at the Westminster machine and the outrageous lies of the Yes side. I truly feel for people like DavidL, seeing their country slipping away on the back of a lemming-like rush to self-destruction.

    We are not beaten yet. Have faith. Scots are not stupid. At least more than 50% of them are not.

    Polling station 7-10 then knocking doors. Going to be a long day.
    So, you are calling Yes voters "stupid" now?
    You know what? I am. To call anybody that can believe Salmond's lies stupid is actually a compliment because the alternatives are worse.
    It's not about Salmond, or even his arguments, it never has been.

    It's about Scotland, and her nationhood.
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I have never wanted to be as wrong about anything as I want to be wrong about tomorrow's vote.but i have never been more certain I am right. I just cannot see No winning. Scotland seems to have been enveloped by a fog of delusion, caused by justified anger at the Westminster machine and the outrageous lies of the Yes side. I truly feel for people like DavidL, seeing their country slipping away on the back of a lemming-like rush to self-destruction.

    We are not beaten yet. Have faith. Scots are not stupid. At least more than 50% of them are not.

    Polling station 7-10 then knocking doors. Going to be a long day.
    So, you are calling Yes voters "stupid" now?
    You know what? I am. To call anybody that can believe Salmond's lies stupid is actually a compliment because the alternatives are worse.
    Tipping point.
    So when MalcolmG a few months ago, called No voters retards, and mentally ill was that also a tipping point?
    When you blocked James Kelly was a tipping point. Words cannot begin to describe the low esteem in which you are held.
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I have never wanted to be as wrong about anything as I want to be wrong about tomorrow's vote.but i have never been more certain I am right. I just cannot see No winning. Scotland seems to have been enveloped by a fog of delusion, caused by justified anger at the Westminster machine and the outrageous lies of the Yes side. I truly feel for people like DavidL, seeing their country slipping away on the back of a lemming-like rush to self-destruction.

    We are not beaten yet. Have faith. Scots are not stupid. At least more than 50% of them are not.

    Polling station 7-10 then knocking doors. Going to be a long day.
    So, you are calling Yes voters "stupid" now?
    You know what? I am. To call anybody that can believe Salmond's lies stupid is actually a compliment because the alternatives are worse.
    Tipping point.
    So when MalcolmG a few months ago, called No voters retards, and mentally ill was that also a tipping point?
    When you blocked James Kelly was a tipping point. Words cannot begin to describe the low esteem in which you are held.
    Mike blocked James Kelly, not me.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    IOS said:

    Tomorrow, the country I have lived in my entire life, my effectively cease to exist.

    Can't really get my head around it.

    Which country? The uk?

    Until the last week or two I can't remember anyone saying they were from the United Kingdom
    That depends on what circles you move in I guess. Of course many of us use Britain as a synonym for the UK, as in TeamGB, excluding the oft forgotten northern Irish.

    And of course UKIP are to be thanked for reminding everyone that they fight for the United Kingdom with their name every time it is spoken or written.
    Wouldn't even cross my mind to say British, each to their own
    I generally identify as British when abroad or talking to foreigners, although I suppose an English mother and welsh father may have pushed that feeling onto me.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578

    kle4 said:

    Just spoken to someone who lives in an estate that has been visited by a flash mob of Yes supporters. Roads blocked by dozens of vehicles. Kids screaming "yes, yes, yes". She's a proud Scot who said that she is proud to be British when knocked up by them. Was told to "Go back to London". She was shaking with rage at the intimidation. You folks down south have no idea of what it is like up here.

    Well I have plenty of idea what it is like 'up here' having been wandering around Aberdeen today. No sign at all of the idiocy you describe and I am firmly of the opinion that these incidents are very rare and being highlighted by the press to make it seem like it is the norm.

    It isn't and you should stop trying to pretend otherwise.
    You may well be right about other places - I can only speak for where I live. And it is a I describe. I can vouch for it and I am not pretending. Your last comment is, frankly, an ignorant insult.
    Your "You folks down south have no idea of what it is like up here." is the real insult and shows you are trying to smear the Yes campaign by painting incredibly rare isolated incidents as if they are the norm.

    It is shameful, malicious and ignorant.
    I hav

    Nope. As long as you persist in trying to paint a false impression of what is happening in Scotland I will happily continue to point out your dishonesty. Feel free to say what you see and know. Don't pretend it is symptomatic of the rest of the campaign.
    Ho
    That wasn't what he originally said.

    Go back and look at the original posting where he repeated a personal experience and then tried to pretend it was the norm with the phrase "You folks down south have no idea of what it is like up here."

    Trying to backtrack later when he is picked up on it shows he knew what he was doing in the first place.
    Or the original words were unclear, so were challenged, and then clarified? Why assume malicious intent when they've not only clarified, but in such a way to accept the point you made (that is, one cannot say all Yes are like that), rather than some weasel words which might leave open the implication they still meant what had been originally perceived?
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    IOS said:

    Tomorrow, the country I have lived in my entire life, my effectively cease to exist.

    Can't really get my head around it.

    Which country? The uk?

    Until the last week or two I can't remember anyone saying they were from the United Kingdom
    That depends on what circles you move in I guess. Of course many of us use Britain as a synonym for the UK, as in TeamGB, excluding the oft forgotten northern Irish.

    And of course UKIP are to be thanked for reminding everyone that they fight for the United Kingdom with their name every time it is spoken or written.
    Wouldn't even cross my mind to say British, each to their own
    I generally identify as British when abroad or talking to foreigners, although I suppose an English mother and welsh father may have pushed that feeling onto me.
    Me too. I would describe myself as British, or, if asked where I was from, would say "the UK".
  • audreyanneaudreyanne Posts: 1,376
    edited September 2014
    kle4 said:

    MikeK said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11102371/Archbishop-of-Canterbury-my-doubts-about-existence-of-God.html?utm_content=buffer04c5d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

    Archbishop of Canterbury: my doubts about existence of God
    Justin Welby says he asks himself ‘is there a God?’ and says Christians cannot explain why there is suffering in the world
    ---------------------------
    If the Archbishop can't believe in God then he can't believe in Jesus, the Son of God.
    Whats he doing being a Christian Archbishop in the first place? No wonder Christianity is dying in the UK.

    What a fatuously stupid remark. If an Archbishop cannot question then what's he (or she) doing being Archbishop?

    Or have you forgotten that Jesus, the Son of God, screamed one of the greatest questions in history from the cross?
    I have. What was the question? The only quotation from the cross I can recall is 'Forgive them father' etc etc
    'Forgive them father.' isn't a question.

    How about:

    'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?'

    Christianity's greatest response to suffering comes on the cross, not as a statement, but a question, a divine disruption that echoes across time. When the world falls silent in the face of evil, moral and natural, there is a man hanging there with a ?
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    edited September 2014

    Miss Fitalass, sorry to hear that, but sadly not surprised.

    Mr. K, I'm not a fan of the archsocialist, but if he's expressing doubt that's not inconsistent with belief. Faith has to include an element of doubt, otherwise you're just acknowledging a self-evident fact. Nobody has belief or faith in gravity, because it's obviously extant.

    This answers all:
    I'm not saying one shouldn't doubt. I'm saying in a round about way, that there is time and place to express ones doubts and not cast a blanket of public doubt on the whole religion.

    I myself gave up believing in the ONE GOD years ago and now have several of the buggers to whom I turn to in stress.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I have never wanted to be as wrong about anything as I want to be wrong about tomorrow's vote.but i have never been more certain I am right. I just cannot see No winning. Scotland seems to have been enveloped by a fog of delusion, caused by justified anger at the Westminster machine and the outrageous lies of the Yes side. I truly feel for people like DavidL, seeing their country slipping away on the back of a lemming-like rush to self-destruction.

    We are not beaten yet. Have faith. Scots are not stupid. At least more than 50% of them are not.

    Polling station 7-10 then knocking doors. Going to be a long day.
    So, you are calling Yes voters "stupid" now?
    You know what? I am. To call anybody that can believe Salmond's lies stupid is actually a compliment because the alternatives are worse.
    Tipping point.
    So when MalcolmG a few months ago, called No voters retards, and mentally ill was that also a tipping point?
    When you blocked James Kelly was a tipping point. Words cannot begin to describe the low esteem in which you are held.
    Nice way to dodge the question.
  • Hugh said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I have never wanted to be as wrong about anything as I want to be wrong about tomorrow's vote.but i have never been more certain I am right. I just cannot see No winning. Scotland seems to have been enveloped by a fog of delusion, caused by justified anger at the Westminster machine and the outrageous lies of the Yes side. I truly feel for people like DavidL, seeing their country slipping away on the back of a lemming-like rush to self-destruction.

    We are not beaten yet. Have faith. Scots are not stupid. At least more than 50% of them are not.

    Polling station 7-10 then knocking doors. Going to be a long day.
    So, you are calling Yes voters "stupid" now?
    You know what? I am. To call anybody that can believe Salmond's lies stupid is actually a compliment because the alternatives are worse.
    It's about Scotland, and her nationhood.
    Scotland has been a nation for centuries - and will continue to be whatever the result of the referendum.

    The referendum is about how she chooses to pool her sovereignty - and for some, directly elected politicians in Westminster = bad, unelected politicians in Brussels = good.....

  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,808
    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    IOS said:

    Tomorrow, the country I have lived in my entire life, my effectively cease to exist.

    Can't really get my head around it.

    Which country? The uk?

    Until the last week or two I can't remember anyone saying they were from the United Kingdom
    That depends on what circles you move in I guess. Of course many of us use Britain as a synonym for the UK, as in TeamGB, excluding the oft forgotten northern Irish.

    And of course UKIP are to be thanked for reminding everyone that they fight for the United Kingdom with their name every time it is spoken or written.
    Wouldn't even cross my mind to say British, each to their own
    I generally identify as British when abroad or talking to foreigners, although I suppose an English mother and welsh father may have pushed that feeling onto me.
    Born, in Scotland, now live in England, English parents but one of Welsh extraction. Support Scotland at Rugby and England at football. I see myself as British.
  • I always say I'm from London.

    isam would not approve.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    TGOHF said:

    Yes mongs climbing on the cenotaph in George Sq - scum.

    Is that a haiku?

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    Hugh said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I have never wanted to be as wrong about anything as I want to be wrong about tomorrow's vote.but i have never been more certain I am right. I just cannot see No winning. Scotland seems to have been enveloped by a fog of delusion, caused by justified anger at the Westminster machine and the outrageous lies of the Yes side. I truly feel for people like DavidL, seeing their country slipping away on the back of a lemming-like rush to self-destruction.

    We are not beaten yet. Have faith. Scots are not stupid. At least more than 50% of them are not.

    Polling station 7-10 then knocking doors. Going to be a long day.
    So, you are calling Yes voters "stupid" now?
    You know what? I am. To call anybody that can believe Salmond's lies stupid is actually a compliment because the alternatives are worse.
    It's not about Salmond, or even his arguments, it never has been.

    It's about Scotland, and her nationhood.
    The arguments should still be relevant for people. They don't have to accept them, or believe it makes a difference given the benefits, but ignoring arguments whichever side one falls on is incredibly reckless. It is what is happening, and fortunately in this case the sky is not about to fall in even if the worst predictions are all true, but it would still be reckless.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    Hugh said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I have never wanted to be as wrong about anything as I want to be wrong about tomorrow's vote.but i have never been more certain I am right. I just cannot see No winning. Scotland seems to have been enveloped by a fog of delusion, caused by justified anger at the Westminster machine and the outrageous lies of the Yes side. I truly feel for people like DavidL, seeing their country slipping away on the back of a lemming-like rush to self-destruction.

    We are not beaten yet. Have faith. Scots are not stupid. At least more than 50% of them are not.

    Polling station 7-10 then knocking doors. Going to be a long day.
    So, you are calling Yes voters "stupid" now?
    You know what? I am. To call anybody that can believe Salmond's lies stupid is actually a compliment because the alternatives are worse.
    It's not about Salmond, or even his arguments, it never has been.

    It's about Scotland, and her nationhood.
    I can accept that for the vanishingly few who actually think that way but their cold indifference to the suffering they will cause their fellow citizens makes me shudder. And the fact that they are so willing to lie and deceive to obtain their "principled" position is really only worthy of contempt.
  • kle4 said:

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    IOS said:

    Tomorrow, the country I have lived in my entire life, my effectively cease to exist.

    Can't really get my head around it.

    Which country? The uk?

    Until the last week or two I can't remember anyone saying they were from the United Kingdom
    That depends on what circles you move in I guess. Of course many of us use Britain as a synonym for the UK, as in TeamGB, excluding the oft forgotten northern Irish.

    And of course UKIP are to be thanked for reminding everyone that they fight for the United Kingdom with their name every time it is spoken or written.
    Wouldn't even cross my mind to say British, each to their own
    My instinctive approach is while in the UK I would say English, as odds are anyone else asking will be British as well, but abroad I would specify British, English Variant
    I had to temporarily register for a GP yesterday in Aberdeen. I was interested to see on the form that where they asked my ethnic background the choices - amongst many others - included English, Scottish and British.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    MTimT said:

    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    IOS said:

    Tomorrow, the country I have lived in my entire life, my effectively cease to exist.

    Can't really get my head around it.

    Which country? The uk?

    Until the last week or two I can't remember anyone saying they were from the United Kingdom
    That depends on what circles you move in I guess. Of course many of us use Britain as a synonym for the UK, as in TeamGB, excluding the oft forgotten northern Irish.

    And of course UKIP are to be thanked for reminding everyone that they fight for the United Kingdom with their name every time it is spoken or written.
    I think expats are far more used to using UK than other names for Britain. I always say I am British, and always refer to UK, have done for decades.
    I thought you had been an American citizen for decades now.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578

    Incidentally, I must've been asleep or actually doing some work when the trend started, but what is this tipping point nonsense about? Is there a pb nocturnal excursion planned, during which the primary activity will be cow tipping?

    During the mass unionist panic when Yes got that poll in the lead, a poster (I forget who) starting quoting many of the examples as demonstrating a tipping point had been reached in the campaign toward Yes winning. As I thought Yes would win for years now, I got a head start on the panicking.
  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    edited September 2014
    William Hill - What Colours Will The Union Flag Be If Scotland Votes Yes To Independence?

    Red And White EVS
    Red White And Blue 11/4
    Green Red And White 4/1
    Black White And Red 6/1
    Blue, Yellow And White 50/1
    Orange, White And Red 50/1
    Pink Green and Purple 500/1
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I have never wanted to be as wrong about anything as I want to be wrong about tomorrow's vote.but i have never been more certain I am right. I just cannot see No winning. Scotland seems to have been enveloped by a fog of delusion, caused by justified anger at the Westminster machine and the outrageous lies of the Yes side. I truly feel for people like DavidL, seeing their country slipping away on the back of a lemming-like rush to self-destruction.

    We are not beaten yet. Have faith. Scots are not stupid. At least more than 50% of them are not.

    Polling station 7-10 then knocking doors. Going to be a long day.
    So, you are calling Yes voters "stupid" now?
    You know what? I am. To call anybody that can believe Salmond's lies stupid is actually a compliment because the alternatives are worse.
    Tipping point.
    So when MalcolmG a few months ago, called No voters retards, and mentally ill was that also a tipping point?
    Of course not. Only No supporters insult people.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    IOS said:

    Stuart

    Semantics. I feel British. I want to stay that way. But hey. Not my call if Scotland wants to go. All I will say is don't expect a currency Union.

    If you go, you are really on your own. Something, which from your previous posts I would suggest you will actually welcome more so.

    If Irish people can still call themselves Irish despite part of Ireland missing from their country, then British people can still call themselves British despite part of Britain missing from their country.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Yes back out to 4.7
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Socrates said:

    MTimT said:

    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    IOS said:

    Tomorrow, the country I have lived in my entire life, my effectively cease to exist.

    Can't really get my head around it.

    Which country? The uk?

    Until the last week or two I can't remember anyone saying they were from the United Kingdom
    That depends on what circles you move in I guess. Of course many of us use Britain as a synonym for the UK, as in TeamGB, excluding the oft forgotten northern Irish.

    And of course UKIP are to be thanked for reminding everyone that they fight for the United Kingdom with their name every time it is spoken or written.
    I think expats are far more used to using UK than other names for Britain. I always say I am British, and always refer to UK, have done for decades.
    I thought you had been an American citizen for decades now.
    No still British, no US citizenship, just a Green Card.
  • IOS said:

    Tomorrow, the country I have lived in my entire life, my effectively cease to exist.

    Can't really get my head around it.

    The Yookay is not a country. It is a state.
    The two are the same thing. Whether people choose to identify with it is another matter. That said, terminology for political units is hopelessly confused and interchangeable.
  • Survation ‏@Survation 22s

    *POLL ALERT* We will be reporting our FINAL #indyref poll at 10pm. Telephone. Conducted over last 24 hours with fieldwork completing at 9pm.
  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371
    Who would have thought so many PB Hodges would be looking to Gord to save the Union....strange times.
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I have never wanted to be as wrong about anything as I want to be wrong about tomorrow's vote.but i have never been more certain I am right. I just cannot see No winning. Scotland seems to have been enveloped by a fog of delusion, caused by justified anger at the Westminster machine and the outrageous lies of the Yes side. I truly feel for people like DavidL, seeing their country slipping away on the back of a lemming-like rush to self-destruction.

    We are not beaten yet. Have faith. Scots are not stupid. At least more than 50% of them are not.

    Polling station 7-10 then knocking doors. Going to be a long day.
    So, you are calling Yes voters "stupid" now?
    You know what? I am. To call anybody that can believe Salmond's lies stupid is actually a compliment because the alternatives are worse.
    Tipping point.
    So when MalcolmG a few months ago, called No voters retards, and mentally ill was that also a tipping point?
    When you blocked James Kelly was a tipping point. Words cannot begin to describe the low esteem in which you are held.
    Mike blocked James Kelly, not me.
    Yes, and because James explicitly refused to follow Mike's request.

    He had no one to blame but himself.

    But I suspect the little pity-party on Comical James Goes Pop keeps them feeling reassured of their intellectual superiority........
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    isam said:

    Andrew Gale of Yorkshire charged with racism for calling Ashwell Prince a "Kolpak"

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/county-cricket-2014/content/current/story/781849.html

    I blame the EU

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolpak_ruling

    How on Earth is that racist?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578

    kle4 said:

    MikeK said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11102371/Archbishop-of-Canterbury-my-doubts-about-existence-of-God.html?utm_content=buffer04c5d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

    Archbishop of Canterbury: my doubts about existence of God
    Justin Welby says he asks himself ‘is there a God?’ and says Christians cannot explain why there is suffering in the world
    ---------------------------
    If the Archbishop can't believe in God then he can't believe in Jesus, the Son of God.
    Whats he doing being a Christian Archbishop in the first place? No wonder Christianity is dying in the UK.

    What a fatuously stupid remark. If an Archbishop cannot question then what's he (or she) doing being Archbishop?

    Or have you forgotten that Jesus, the Son of God, screamed one of the greatest questions in history from the cross?
    I have. What was the question? The only quotation from the cross I can recall is 'Forgive them father' etc etc
    'Forgive them father.' isn't a question.

    How about:

    'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?'

    Christianity's greatest response to suffering comes on the cross, not as a statement, but a question, a divine disruption that echoes across time. When the world falls silent in the face of evil, moral and natural, there is a man hanging there with a ?
    I didn't say I thought that quote was a question, i said it was the only quote I could recall from the cross.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    In the PB tradition of declaring you backed a big price winner when you backed more than one selection but don't mention the losers...

    Jerome Boateng 80/1 kerching
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    William Hill - What Colours Will The Union Flag Be If Scotland Votes Yes To Independence?

    Red And White EVS
    Red White And Blue 11/4
    Green Red And White 4/1
    Black White And Red 6/1
    Blue, Yellow And White 50/1
    Orange, White And Red 50/1
    Pink Green and Purple 500/1

    11/4 is free money.
  • I just came back from an rally. It was organised last minute and it was an invitation to all foreign nationals living in Edinburgh or visiting to participate and show support for a Yes vote. Thousands turned out. There were speakers from around the world including English speakers who were well received. After they finished speaking the crowd wanted more so they decided to march down the Royal Mile to the Parliament. There were families with babies, many nationalities, many working class Scots and the although the march took over the road there was no trouble, people singing out of windows to the crowd and cars caught in the throng tooted their horns and waved. There were some No signs in windows but it was a carnival atmosphere and not a nasty word was spoken and the police kept a low profile. When the crowd got to the parliament where many foreign news crews are setting up for Friday morning, many of the crews covered the impromptu gathering and the crowd repeatedly sang "Where's your cameras BBC?"

    It was peaceful and democratic and passionate and there were thousands. If there is a narrow No vote, these people are not going away - you can be absolutely sure of that! The Union is over, it is just a question of when not if.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    taffys said:

    I'll offer an honest bet with you.

    Mr Llama - Maybe....lets talk again when the result is in? might be academic

    Fair go, Mr. Taffys.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    kle4 said:

    MikeK said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11102371/Archbishop-of-Canterbury-my-doubts-about-existence-of-God.html?utm_content=buffer04c5d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

    Archbishop of Canterbury: my doubts about existence of God
    Justin Welby says he asks himself ‘is there a God?’ and says Christians cannot explain why there is suffering in the world
    ---------------------------
    If the Archbishop can't believe in God then he can't believe in Jesus, the Son of God.
    Whats he doing being a Christian Archbishop in the first place? No wonder Christianity is dying in the UK.

    What a fatuously stupid remark. If an Archbishop cannot question then what's he (or she) doing being Archbishop?

    Or have you forgotten that Jesus, the Son of God, screamed one of the greatest questions in history from the cross?
    I have. What was the question? The only quotation from the cross I can recall is 'Forgive them father' etc etc
    'Forgive them father.' isn't a question.

    How about:

    'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?'

    Christianity's greatest response to suffering comes on the cross, not as a statement, but a question, a divine disruption that echoes across time. When the world falls silent in the face of evil, moral and natural, there is a man hanging there with a ?
    I thought Jesus was God. Why did he need to talk to himself?
  • Mr. Socrates, a sound point on us remaining British.

    If it happened to annoy Salmond that would merely be a bonus.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,954

    MikeK said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11102371/Archbishop-of-Canterbury-my-doubts-about-existence-of-God.html?utm_content=buffer04c5d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

    Archbishop of Canterbury: my doubts about existence of God
    Justin Welby says he asks himself ‘is there a God?’ and says Christians cannot explain why there is suffering in the world
    ---------------------------
    If the Archbishop can't believe in God then he can't believe in Jesus, the Son of God.
    Whats he doing being a Christian Archbishop in the first place? No wonder Christianity is dying in the UK.

    I think that you are being a little harsh. Doubt is part of the Christian experience.
    After all Jesus is recorded as saying on the cross "Father, why have you forsaken me?"

    If Jesus can have doubts, then we are in good company. Leave certainty to the fanatics.
    One of the best things about the Church of England is that questioning their faith is so common. I've always thought it was a good sign that senior members of the clergy have the same doubts as their flock.
  • Twitter rumour is YouGov 52% or 53% NO. Speculation of course...
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Survation telephone poll out at 10pm as well!
  • Hugh said:

    Hugh said:

    I have never wanted to be as wrong about anything as I want to be wrong about tomorrow's vote.but i have never been more certain I am right. I just cannot see No winning. Scotland seems to have been enveloped by a fog of delusion, caused by justified anger at the Westminster machine and the outrageous lies of the Yes side. I truly feel for people like DavidL, seeing their country slipping away on the back of a lemming-like rush to self-destruction.

    It's not "delusion". It's enthusiasm, realism and optimism.

    It's a breath of fresh air, and it is great to see ordinary folk cause complete turmoil and confusion amongst the rightwing Establishment.

    There's nothing refreshing about seeing people being lied to about issues that are fundamental to their economic prospects by nationalists whose primary aim is to create an international frontier and divisions. The establishment will be mildly discomfited, some political careers will end, but things will basically carry on as before - except the UK will have been torn asunder and most Scots will have significantly lower living standards. Hilarious!

    People haven't been "lied to", don't be daft. That implies the electorate are gullible or dumb.

    Nationalists have put forward a vision, and the people of Scotland have liked it.

    Voters are intelligent enough to realise that the transition to independence may not be smooth, the tractor stats might dip for a while, but they don't care. The end result is worth it.

    That's what no-one in the No campaign has understood until Gordon decided he'd had enough of their crap and would step in.

    In which case why has the Yes side chosen to tell so many lies - about currency, EU membership, the NHS and so on. If you are right none of that was necessary.


  • jam2809 said:

    Twitter rumour is YouGov 52% or 53% NO. Speculation of course...

    ugh - sorry. Please ignore. The above is last week's YouGov. No idea or rumour for tonight's...
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245

    Who would have thought so many PB Hodges would be looking to Gord to save the Union....strange times.

    HOUSE!!!
  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371
    edited September 2014
    Basil has just put down the polling crossover goalposts to make a prediction.....49.2% Yes 50.8% No.

    http://www.greysquirrel.net/pics/popball.gif - Go with the squirrel.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Mr. Socrates, a sound point on us remaining British.

    If it happened to annoy Salmond that would merely be a bonus.

    We should change as little as possible should Scotland leave. Maybe just add a "southern" to the name of our country, so that we are the "United Kingdom of Southern Britain and Northern Ireland". Keep the flag, keep the British nationality, keep the UNSC seat, keep our nuclear weapons, keep the pound. Oh, and keep more of our money.
  • HughHugh Posts: 955
    DavidL said:

    Hugh said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I have never wanted to be as wrong about anything as I want to be wrong about tomorrow's vote.but i have never been more certain I am right. I just cannot see No winning. Scotland seems to have been enveloped by a fog of delusion, caused by justified anger at the Westminster machine and the outrageous lies of the Yes side. I truly feel for people like DavidL, seeing their country slipping away on the back of a lemming-like rush to self-destruction.

    We are not beaten yet. Have faith. Scots are not stupid. At least more than 50% of them are not.

    Polling station 7-10 then knocking doors. Going to be a long day.
    So, you are calling Yes voters "stupid" now?
    You know what? I am. To call anybody that can believe Salmond's lies stupid is actually a compliment because the alternatives are worse.
    It's not about Salmond, or even his arguments, it never has been.

    It's about Scotland, and her nationhood.
    I can accept that for the vanishingly few who actually think that way but their cold indifference to the suffering they will cause their fellow citizens makes me shudder. And the fact that they are so willing to lie and deceive to obtain their "principled" position is really only worthy of contempt.
    It's not about the SNP and their lies.

    The people of Scotland aren't stupid enough to believe the SNP and their lies.

    What the people of Scotland DO like is the central vision of the SNP. An independent Scotland.

    I, and some others who have long been sent away from PB, have been pointing this out for a long time. That NO need to sell a similar vision. Only Gordon Brown, in the last week, has risen to the challenge.

    PS. I'm not a Scottish nationalist.
  • Socrates said:

    IOS said:

    Stuart

    Semantics. I feel British. I want to stay that way. But hey. Not my call if Scotland wants to go. All I will say is don't expect a currency Union.

    If you go, you are really on your own. Something, which from your previous posts I would suggest you will actually welcome more so.

    If Irish people can still call themselves Irish despite part of Ireland missing from their country, then British people can still call themselves British despite part of Britain missing from their country.
    Of course we can call ourselves 'British' - we're from the 'British Isles'....and foreign countries get no say in what were called, our flag....and so on.....
  • audreyanneaudreyanne Posts: 1,376
    edited September 2014
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    MikeK said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11102371/Archbishop-of-Canterbury-my-doubts-about-existence-of-God.html?utm_content=buffer04c5d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

    Archbishop of Canterbury: my doubts about existence of God
    Justin Welby says he asks himself ‘is there a God?’ and says Christians cannot explain why there is suffering in the world
    ---------------------------
    If the Archbishop can't believe in God then he can't believe in Jesus, the Son of God.
    Whats he doing being a Christian Archbishop in the first place? No wonder Christianity is dying in the UK.

    What a fatuously stupid remark. If an Archbishop cannot question then what's he (or she) doing being Archbishop?

    Or have you forgotten that Jesus, the Son of God, screamed one of the greatest questions in history from the cross?
    I have. What was the question? The only quotation from the cross I can recall is 'Forgive them father' etc etc
    'Forgive them father.' isn't a question.

    How about:

    'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?'

    Christianity's greatest response to suffering comes on the cross, not as a statement, but a question, a divine disruption that echoes across time. When the world falls silent in the face of evil, moral and natural, there is a man hanging there with a ?
    I didn't say I thought that quote was a question, i said it was the only quote I could recall from the cross.
    I had a nasty feeling you were going to respond with that. Read back the conversation. It began with MikeL lamenting the Archbishop asking questions about his faith because of suffering. You jumped in with a non sequitur.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578



    It was peaceful and democratic and passionate and there were thousands. If there is a narrow No vote, these people are not going away - you can be absolutely sure of that! The Union is over, it is just a question of when not if.

    Probably. A No win, and obviously it would be narrow if it were to occur, would give at least the opportunity to create a settlement that would stand the tests of the next century better, but that would e fiendishly difficult to create, and in all probability beyond us, but it's a chance. Quebec voted No by the narrowest margin, and PQ just lost serious momentum when they suggested asking the question yet again and lost heavily in elections to their assembly. It too may still go its own way, but clearly support for asking the question again has dropped for the time being, the same could happen over here.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited September 2014
    antifrank said:

    I always say I'm from London.

    isam would not approve.

    Each to their own... When I lived in North London I used to say " I live in North London but I'm from Essex" for no other reason other than it was the truth

    But that whole argument was just silly and nothing really to do with the point I was trying to make... it did show how keen people were to be thought of from London though!
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    Socrates said:

    isam said:

    Andrew Gale of Yorkshire charged with racism for calling Ashwell Prince a "Kolpak"

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/county-cricket-2014/content/current/story/781849.html

    I blame the EU

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolpak_ruling

    How on Earth is that racist?
    Reading the link it wasn't just that, but was part of a 'get back to your own country' thing.

    Still to go in front of a disciplinary committee to decide.
  • TGOHF said:

    William Hill - What Colours Will The Union Flag Be If Scotland Votes Yes To Independence?

    Red And White EVS
    Red White And Blue 11/4
    Green Red And White 4/1
    Black White And Red 6/1
    Blue, Yellow And White 50/1
    Orange, White And Red 50/1
    Pink Green and Purple 500/1

    11/4 is free money.
    Yeah but you tie your money up for two years. Read the small print: What colour will the offical flag of the Union of England, Wales and Northern Ireland be on midnight 31st December 2016 in the event Scotland votes yes to Independence. Others on request. Bets void if Scotland votes no to independence.
  • audreyanneaudreyanne Posts: 1,376
    Socrates said:

    kle4 said:

    MikeK said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11102371/Archbishop-of-Canterbury-my-doubts-about-existence-of-God.html?utm_content=buffer04c5d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

    Archbishop of Canterbury: my doubts about existence of God
    Justin Welby says he asks himself ‘is there a God?’ and says Christians cannot explain why there is suffering in the world
    ---------------------------
    If the Archbishop can't believe in God then he can't believe in Jesus, the Son of God.
    Whats he doing being a Christian Archbishop in the first place? No wonder Christianity is dying in the UK.

    What a fatuously stupid remark. If an Archbishop cannot question then what's he (or she) doing being Archbishop?

    Or have you forgotten that Jesus, the Son of God, screamed one of the greatest questions in history from the cross?
    I have. What was the question? The only quotation from the cross I can recall is 'Forgive them father' etc etc
    'Forgive them father.' isn't a question.

    How about:

    'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?'

    Christianity's greatest response to suffering comes on the cross, not as a statement, but a question, a divine disruption that echoes across time. When the world falls silent in the face of evil, moral and natural, there is a man hanging there with a ?
    I thought Jesus was God. Why did he need to talk to himself?
    I'm assuming that's a tongue-in-cheek question as if you were three years old?

    Have a look at Wolfhart Pannenberg, Jurgen Moltmann, Eberhard Jungel, Paul Fiddes and many theologians who have written on the Trinity, especially as it relates to suffering and the cross.

    Let's get back to the Indy and save theology for another day.

    Two more polls then?
  • DavidL said:

    Hugh said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I have never wanted to be as wrong about anything as I want to be wrong about tomorrow's vote.but i have never been more certain I am right. I just cannot see No winning. Scotland seems to have been enveloped by a fog of delusion, caused by justified anger at the Westminster machine and the outrageous lies of the Yes side. I truly feel for people like DavidL, seeing their country slipping away on the back of a lemming-like rush to self-destruction.

    We are not beaten yet. Have faith. Scots are not stupid. At least more than 50% of them are not.

    Polling station 7-10 then knocking doors. Going to be a long day.
    So, you are calling Yes voters "stupid" now?
    You know what? I am. To call anybody that can believe Salmond's lies stupid is actually a compliment because the alternatives are worse.
    It's not about Salmond, or even his arguments, it never has been.

    It's about Scotland, and her nationhood.
    I can accept that for the vanishingly few who actually think that way but their cold indifference to the suffering they will cause their fellow citizens makes me shudder. And the fact that they are so willing to lie and deceive to obtain their "principled" position is really only worthy of contempt.
    And what about the lies being told by the Unionists? That infamous 'vow' from yesterday and the lies today from Alexander about EVEL.

    Both sides have lied to further their aims. They are politicians after all it is what they do.

    To try and pretend this is any different to the lies they tell every day to further their aims and do us all harm or that they would ever behave any differently is naive in the extreme.

    I suspect you are just upset because Salmond might prove to be better at it than his opponents.
  • It was peaceful and democratic and passionate and there were thousands. If there is a narrow No vote, these people are not going away - you can be absolutely sure of that! The Union is over, it is just a question of when not if.

    It's reassuring to see that the nationalists only believe in their ludicrous myth of the "sovereign will of the Scottish people" when that will coincides with their views.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    Could the special needs theology discussion group perhaps adjourn to a different classroom? There's some quite interesting political stuff happening.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376
    I wonder whether BBC/ITV/SKY will do an "exit poll" for tomorrow night's programme?
This discussion has been closed.