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Next Thursday looks like being a “mini referendum” on the PM – politicalbetting.com

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  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,825
    Leon said:

    It was, of course, a bunch of “leading virologists” who told us the Lab Leak Hypothesis was a “racist conspiracy theory”, and forbade us from even talking about it
    I hope you're not drifting back to posting links from far right crazies. You've done less of that in recent times, credit where credit's due.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,356
    IshmaelZ said:

    Mussolini was never anything other than a joke either.
    Striking for how long ‘we’ (the Allies) also portrayed AH as a joke figure, I seem to have a permanent cartoon of a ridiculous little bloke with a moustache being booted up the arse by someone or other imprinted on my memory. Of course a huge death toll is a great vouchsafe of being taken seriously. The Nazis were inherently ridiculous, a bunch of fat arsed farmers in brown (brown!) jodhpurs stomping about the place, but the attempted extermination of a race is a great way to stop the laughing.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,570
    HYUFD said:

    Even Kinnock led Thatcher's Tories in 1990 and Ed Miliband was often ahead of Cameron’s Tories midterm.
    Maybe Labour will get lucky thanks to Durham police and can get a new leader.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,852
    edited June 2022

    "...forbade us from even talking about it..."

    How effective was that?
    VERY, for about a year


    “Facebook lifts ban on posts claiming Covid-19 was man-made
    Social network says policy comes ‘in light of ongoing investigations into the origin’ of virus”


    “Anyone posting claims that Covid-19 was “man-made or manufactured” could have seen their posts removed or restricted, and repeatedly sharing the allegation could have led to a ban from the site entirely.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/may/27/facebook-lifts-ban-on-posts-claiming-covid-19-was-man-made?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


    https://unherd.com/2021/05/how-facebook-censored-the-lab-leak-theory/
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,302
    Leon said:

    VERY, for about a year


    “Facebook lifts ban on posts claiming Covid-19 was man-made
    Social network says policy comes ‘in light of ongoing investigations into the origin’ of virus”


    “Anyone posting claims that Covid-19 was “man-made or manufactured” could have seen their posts removed or restricted, and repeatedly sharing the allegation could have led to a ban from the site entirely.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/may/27/facebook-lifts-ban-on-posts-claiming-covid-19-was-man-made?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


    https://unherd.com/2021/05/how-facebook-censored-the-lab-leak-theory/
    I don't remember it stopping you EVER.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,302

    Maybe Labour will get lucky thanks to Durham police and can get a new leader.
    That would be somewhat ironic - Daily Mail campaign leads to charismatic, election-winning Labour leader.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,846

    At best it was a "Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?" situation. But I think that is giving Trump too much leeway. He wanted to remain president, and encouraged his supporters to believe that the election was stolen. I'd argue everything was heading up to the riots as if there was a central plan, I think from stuff that was said even before the election.

    What makes you think he was 'horrified' at what happened? To me, his reaction was: "Nothing to do with me, guv."

    Trump makes both Johnson and Corbyn appear like saintly figures. He really is orders of magnitude worse than out worst.
    I think he was horrified about the blowback on him, not the actual human cost. Like I said, not a terribly nice man. But definitely not the only such specimen in the Washington fishtank either. I agree that both Johnson and Corbyn are much nicer.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    edited June 2022

    Striking for how long ‘we’ (the Allies) also portrayed AH as a joke figure, I seem to have a permanent cartoon of a ridiculous little bloke with a moustache being booted up the arse by someone or other imprinted on my memory. Of course a huge death toll is a great vouchsafe of being taken seriously. The Nazis were inherently ridiculous, a bunch of fat arsed farmers in brown (brown!) jodhpurs stomping about the place, but the attempted extermination of a race is a great way to stop the laughing.
    https://old.bombercommandmuseum.ca/noseartnls4.html

    Bader's cartoon might be what you have in mind? By a Raff type in flying boots.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,846

    Striking for how long ‘we’ (the Allies) also portrayed AH as a joke figure, I seem to have a permanent cartoon of a ridiculous little bloke with a moustache being booted up the arse by someone or other imprinted on my memory. Of course a huge death toll is a great vouchsafe of being taken seriously. The Nazis were inherently ridiculous, a bunch of fat arsed farmers in brown (brown!) jodhpurs stomping about the place, but the attempted extermination of a race is a great way to stop the laughing.
    'Addy and Hermy' was in the Dandy or Beano I think.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,852

    I don't remember it stopping you EVER.
    Well, it silenced me into thoughtfulness for a few months. Because the scientists were SO EMPHATIC

    Then I wised up and realised they were trying to hoodwink us, and all the circumstantial evidence was against them

    As ever, I was a pioneer here on PB. Now *almost* everyone else has caught up
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,302

    Striking for how long ‘we’ (the Allies) also portrayed AH as a joke figure, I seem to have a permanent cartoon of a ridiculous little bloke with a moustache being booted up the arse by someone or other imprinted on my memory. Of course a huge death toll is a great vouchsafe of being taken seriously. The Nazis were inherently ridiculous, a bunch of fat arsed farmers in brown (brown!) jodhpurs stomping about the place, but the attempted extermination of a race is a great way to stop the laughing.
    Indeed. See also Chaplin's The Great Dictator as evidence of the Comical Adolf meme.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,302
    edited June 2022
    Leon said:

    Well, it silenced me into thoughtfulness for a few months. Because the scientists were SO EMPHATIC

    Then I wised up and realised they were trying to hoodwink us, and all the circumstantial evidence was against them

    As ever, I was a pioneer here on PB. Now *almost* everyone else has caught up
    I am not sure many have yet caught up with your pioneering admiration for Putin however.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,852
    edited June 2022
    About to go for a hike here in the Armenian Caucasus

    Remarkably I have been told to carry a big stick and stamp it loudly on the ground, every few metres. to frighten off “all the snakes”

    Even more remarkably, I’ve been told to be really careful “in case there are bears”

    Bears?? In Armenia?? But apparently it is so. Lots of them. So I was wrong about “the lack of fauna”

    And yet it looks like this. Completely benign


  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,846

    That’s a joke answer.

    You asked what Trump had done that was dramatically out of kilter with other Presidents. Your have in your own words described something that was dramatically out of kilter with other Presidents. QED.

    Yes, I'll concede that. Trump has used (and abused) social media in a way that none of his predecessors (or successor) has done. His successor's moves in the direction of censoring social media aren't great imo, but that's a different issue.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,644
    @JosiasJessop

    'I'm pleased to say I never voted for Corbyn's Labour, or Johnson's Conservatives. My conscience is clear. ;)'

    Well done!

    I'm not quite so pure. I did vote for Johnson for Mayor of London, although in my defence I must say he did present as pro-EU at the time and the main alternative was Ken Livingstone. Nevertheless it's a mea culpa as I should have recognised him for what he is.

    Apart from that blemish though, I'm clean.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    edited June 2022
    Leon said:

    About to go for a hike here in the Armenian Caucasus

    Remarkably I have been told to carry a big stick and stamp it loudly on the ground, every few metres. to frighten off “all the snakes”

    Even more remarkably, I’ve been told to be really careful “in case there are bears”

    Bears?? In Armenia?? But apparently it is so. Lots of them. So I was wrong about “the lack of fauna”

    And yet it looks like this. Completely benign


    Very nice country for bears and snakes. The potential dinner* delivers itself pre-marinated, so to speak.

    *But one hopes, not actual.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,163
    Lib Dems gain seat in Rutland. Not exactly news I hear you say. But the election was to be held on July 14th. However when nominations closed yesterday there was only one candidate - the Lib Dem.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,852
    edited June 2022
    Carnyx said:

    Very nice country for bears and snakes. The potential dinner* delivers itself pre-marinated, so to speak.

    *But one hopes, not actual.
    I somehow always imagined bears living in deeply forested places. These hills are largely bald, or blessed with low shrubs

    Who knew

    The charming woman who runs these lodges says she has seen bears “many times”. They even have a little sprinkling of leopards

    So maybe I did see a wildcat last night. It was definitely not a domestic tabby
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,399

    I think he was horrified about the blowback on him, not the actual human cost. Like I said, not a terribly nice man. But definitely not the only such specimen in the Washington fishtank either. I agree that both Johnson and Corbyn are much nicer.
    Yes, but what makes you think that?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    Leon said:

    I somehow always imagined bears living in deeply forested places. These hills are largely bald, or blessed with low shrubs

    Who knew

    The charming woman who runs these lodges says she has seen bears “many times”. They even have a little sprinkling of leopards

    So maybe I did see a wildcat last night. It was definitely not a domestic tabby
    "Bears", hmm ... were those Scottish footie fans you mentioned the other day Rangers ones by any chance?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,846

    Yes, but what makes you think that?
    I recall him Tweeting to ask the rioters to withdraw. I don't think Trump ever changes his stance unless he's compelled strongly to do so.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    Lol, Bitcoin down another 10%, $19k now.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,356
    Carnyx said:

    https://old.bombercommandmuseum.ca/noseartnls4.html

    Bader's cartoon might be what you have in mind? By a Raff type in flying boots.
    Definitely along those lines, I suspect that formula was common enough to have become a meme. I’m pretty sure there was similar with all three Axis leader, including a distinctly racist portrayal of Hirohito.

    Interesting to see how quickly the copious body of cartooning depicting the evils of the Nazi-Soviet non aggression pact flipped to portraying our noble allies.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,825

    I think he was horrified about the blowback on him, not the actual human cost. Like I said, not a terribly nice man. But definitely not the only such specimen in the Washington fishtank either. I agree that both Johnson and Corbyn are much nicer.
    "Not a terribly nice man" - I agree with this assessment.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,203
    Putting aside the coup / non-coup definitions, how is Trump still a free man?

    Between tax, fraud, and indeed his actions on Jan 6, surely he’s committed a slam dunk crime somewhere?

    The rules of the game also require bad actors to be punished. Is Trump free because the rules of the game have already been subverted by the right, or because he’s not as bad an actor as the left claim?
  • KeystoneKeystone Posts: 127

    I agree about Boris' lack of vision - oddly, as his Brexit support was based on an opportunistic vision (and people on here will disagree about that vision).

    But Starmer also lacks vision. All we have seen from him is a WORN thesis and "I'm a big-brained lawyer, but I don't know if I broke the law." I don't get his vision.

    The Lib Dems don't seem to have much of one, either.

    I think it's slightly unfair to blame all the cost increases on Boris's PMship; much (though not all) of it is due to events outside his control. The question is how prices in other equivalent countries are increasing.
    Starter merely has to demonstrate managerial competence. Voters price will back the alternative if they look competent.

    The Tories successfully attributed the 2009 crash to Brown ignoring the Global Financial Crisis.

    It will be interesting to see if they can pull off the manoeuvre in reverse.

    Opinions are so entrenched around Brexit and cultural issues that we're arguing about a very narrow slice of the electorate.

    All the best
    Nick
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,825
    edited June 2022

    Putting aside the coup / non-coup definitions, how is Trump still a free man?

    Between tax, fraud, and indeed his actions on Jan 6, surely he’s committed a slam dunk crime somewhere?

    The rules of the game also require bad actors to be punished. Is Trump free because the rules of the game have already been subverted by the right, or because he’s not as bad an actor as the left claim?

    I wonder if the polarization he's created protects him in that any charge would be viewed as a fix-up by a big chunk of the public, then if it somehow got to court the jury would contain enough of those people to prevent a conviction.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,798
    Jonathan said:

    Extreme woke as perversion of some sentiment long forgotten that as an ideology is close to McCarthyism....
    A large part of that, though not all, is a confection of right wing media.
    And there are as a result, of course, two sides to that coin.
    https://www.propublica.org/article/georgia-dei-crt-schools-parents
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,570
    The inevitable outcome of all of this is that in his current form, Putin is becoming more of a burden to the system than its salvation. The system will search for ways to minimize his role in state decision making while guaranteeing its own continuation.

    https://carnegieendowment.org/eurasiainsight/87341
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,134
    Leon said:

    About to go for a hike here in the Armenian Caucasus

    Remarkably I have been told to carry a big stick and stamp it loudly on the ground, every few metres. to frighten off “all the snakes”

    Even more remarkably, I’ve been told to be really careful “in case there are bears”

    Bears?? In Armenia?? But apparently it is so. Lots of them. So I was wrong about “the lack of fauna”

    And yet it looks like this. Completely benign


    That will be the first bear to find out what a liqueur tastes like.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Sandpit said:

    Lol, Bitcoin down another 10%, $19k now.

    Terrific news.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    IanB2 said:

    That will be the first bear to find out what a liqueur tastes like.
    Unlikely. There is probably a correlation between alcohol consumption and “incidents” with dangerous wild animals.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    ‘Workers cannot expect pay rises to keep up with soaring cost of living, Treasury warns’

    In other words: brace yourselves for a real decline in living standards.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,651
    Nigelb said:

    Agree with every word.

    I'd add that the ECHR is not perfect, and one might make a reasonable case for other arrangements.
    But to do so in the context of what is a temporary injunction, which merely pauses a policy for a matter of weeks so that UK courts can hold a full hearing on its merits, is beyond suspicious.

    That the policy is one brought into being by administrative fiat rather than legislation makes it worse.

    And for the Home Secretary to label a perfectly reasonable judicial decision (whether she agrees with it or not) as "outrageous" is disgraceful rabble rousing.
    Agreed that the ECHR is not perfect. But those attacking it are not acting in good faith. The attacks are in utter bad faith because they do not want to make it better or more effective. They simply want to get rid of it. The judge being foreign is simply the pretext used.

    The Tory party is increasingly adopting a "l'etat c'est moi" cast of mind. This is profoundly unconservative and dangerous for our democracy.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,950

    ‘Workers cannot expect pay rises to keep up with soaring cost of living, Treasury warns’

    In other words: brace yourselves for a real decline in living standards.

    And industrial action.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620

    Unlikely. There is probably a correlation between alcohol consumption and “incidents” with dangerous wild animals.
    That rings a bell ...

    https://darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin2007-08.html

    'The man's mauled corpse was found inside the bear habitat along with plenty of beer cans. Masha and Misha "reacted angrily" when keepers tried to recover the man's corpse, but were eventually persuaded to give up their prize.'
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Cyclefree said:

    Agreed that the ECHR is not perfect. But those attacking it are not acting in good faith. The attacks are in utter bad faith because they do not want to make it better or more effective. They simply want to get rid of it. The judge being foreign is simply the pretext used.

    The Tory party is increasingly adopting a "l'etat c'est moi" cast of mind. This is profoundly unconservative and dangerous for our democracy.
    « L’État, c’est nous » ? Non, « l’Etat, c’est eux » !
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,698

    ‘Workers cannot expect pay rises to keep up with soaring cost of living, Treasury warns’

    In other words: brace yourselves for a real decline in living standards.

    But of course the bosses will deserve a double digit pay rise to reward them for making the tough decisions to give everyone else a derisory pay rise.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620

    But of course the bosses will deserve a double digit pay rise to reward them for making the tough decisions to give everyone else a derisory pay rise.
    Be interesting to see what happens with MPs. Bearing in mind the additional personal income many of them have, often just because they are MPs.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,580
    Cyclefree said:

    Agreed that the ECHR is not perfect. But those attacking it are not acting in good faith. The attacks are in utter bad faith because they do not want to make it better or more effective. They simply want to get rid of it. The judge being foreign is simply the pretext used.

    The Tory party is increasingly adopting a "l'etat c'est moi" cast of mind. This is profoundly unconservative and dangerous for our democracy.
    It used to be sent to Essex University was a Left-wing place. I wonder if it wasn't by the time Priti Patel studied politics there or she had such a bad time she reacted against it!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,302

    Terrific news.
    I am no fan of bitcoin but why is it 'terrific news'?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,538

    I am no fan of bitcoin but why is it 'terrific news'?
    Bitcoin has a carbon footprint equal to that of Serbia (at least, I think that used to be what was said).
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    But of course the bosses will deserve a double digit pay rise to reward them for making the tough decisions to give everyone else a derisory pay rise.
    Sounds about right.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,356
    edited June 2022
    Lol, Yoons so desperate that they're reduced to bigging up Scotland. I wonder who is the 'we' that Murdo keeps referring to who will be losing all that good shit?

    “We lose … roughly 1/3 of the land mass of Great Britain, probably about half of our territorial waters, we lose the magnificent resource that is Scottish fishing waters, we lose the opportunities from North sea oil and gas (still there despite Nicola Sturgeon’s best efforts), we lose the potential for renewable energy from Scotland’s coasts in the North Sea and the Atlantic, we lose access to barrier-free trade for scotch whisky and scotch salmon, all these fantastic exports, and the opportunity to study at some of the world’s greatest universities … and the joy of having Scots as part of the great British nation … why would you want to throw all that away?”



    https://twitter.com/eRestUK/status/1538045258348519424?s=20&t=kkH5IARydJ_XkEEbTlYl2Q
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Lol, Yoons so desperate that they're reduced to bigging up Scotland. I wonder who is the 'we' that Murdo keeps referring to who will be losing all that good shit?



    https://twitter.com/eRestUK/status/1538045258348519424?s=20&t=kkH5IARydJ_XkEEbTlYl2Q

    Stunning lack of self-awareness.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,121

    It used to be sent to Essex University was a Left-wing place. I wonder if it wasn't by the time Priti Patel studied politics there or she had such a bad time she reacted against it!
    Virtually every university in the country is a leftwing place apart from maybe Buckingham and St Andrews and at a push Durham and a handful of the poshest Oxbridge colleges.



  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,196
    Cyclefree said:

    Agreed that the ECHR is not perfect. But those attacking it are not acting in good faith. The attacks are in utter bad faith because they do not want to make it better or more effective. They simply want to get rid of it. The judge being foreign is simply the pretext used.

    The Tory party is increasingly adopting a "l'etat c'est moi" cast of mind. This is profoundly unconservative and dangerous for our democracy.
    I agree with this too but in this case 3 English courts had refused to make interim orders suspending the transfer of the refugees to Rwanda. This suggests to me that they were persuaded that there was not even a prima facie case that what was being done was wrong in law. The quid pro quo was that the Home Secretary had given undertakings that if it was found to be unlawful at some future hearing the refugees would be returned; in other words no final decision as to their fate was being made.

    In these circumstances I find the fact that a Judge on the ECtHR was willing to give an interim order without even hearing from the UK government pretty remarkable. The law has standing because it is impartial and applied fairly without fear or favour. I simply do not understand how this Judge felt able to do this.

    This is an entirely separate question from whether this is a good policy or not: my view, on which I have been very clear, is that it is not. It is immoral gesture politics both callous and cruel directed against very vulnerable people. We do not, however, have courts of morals, we have courts of law and the ECtHR really did itself no favours at all in forgetting that.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,356

    Stunning lack of self-awareness.
    Stunning to think that Murdo is probably the smartest out of the current SCon line up.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,356
    Good questions Rory, good questions.




  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,716
    tlg86 said:

    Bitcoin has a carbon footprint equal to that of Serbia (at least, I think that used to be what was said).
    Yup, and it goes up and down in line with the price, so bit-coin will be half as polluting at $20k as it was at $40k.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,196

    Stunning lack of self-awareness.
    He is very obviously answering the question of why England should care. And there are indeed excellent reasons to do so. Our union has been a fabulous success because everyone brings things to the party. We are better together, to coin a phrase.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,302

    The inevitable outcome of all of this is that in his current form, Putin is becoming more of a burden to the system than its salvation. The system will search for ways to minimize his role in state decision making while guaranteeing its own continuation.

    https://carnegieendowment.org/eurasiainsight/87341

    I fear this may be wishful thinking.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,302

    Good questions Rory, good questions.



    It's surely going to say 'Conservative Party' on the ballot paper; both of which are unfortunate words for the candidate.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,121

    Lol, Yoons so desperate that they're reduced to bigging up Scotland. I wonder who is the 'we' that Murdo keeps referring to who will be losing all that good shit?

    “We lose … roughly 1/3 of the land mass of Great Britain, probably about half of our territorial waters, we lose the magnificent resource that is Scottish fishing waters, we lose the opportunities from North sea oil and gas (still there despite Nicola Sturgeon’s best efforts), we lose the potential for renewable energy from Scotland’s coasts in the North Sea and the Atlantic, we lose access to barrier-free trade for scotch whisky and scotch salmon, all these fantastic exports, and the opportunity to study at some of the world’s greatest universities … and the joy of having Scots as part of the great British nation … why would you want to throw all that away?”



    https://twitter.com/eRestUK/status/1538045258348519424?s=20&t=kkH5IARydJ_XkEEbTlYl2Q

    And Scots lose the biggest and wealthiest city in Europe, the largest financial centre in Europe, the 2 best universities in Europe and membership of the G7, G20 and permanent membership of the UN Security Council
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Stunning to think that Murdo is probably the smartest out of the current SCon line up.
    Certainly helps explain their inferiority complex.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,302
    tlg86 said:

    Bitcoin has a carbon footprint equal to that of Serbia (at least, I think that used to be what was said).
    Fair point. I've made up my mind never to buy any ;-)
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,196
    HYUFD said:

    And Scots lose the biggest and wealthiest city in Europe, the largest financial centre in Europe, the 2 best universities in Europe and membership of the G7, G20 and permanent membership of the UN Security Council
    Plus some fairly significant subsidies.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    DavidL said:

    He is very obviously answering the question of why England should care. And there are indeed excellent reasons to do so. Our union has been a fabulous success because everyone brings things to the party. We are better together, to coin a phrase.
    It is not in the interests of England to exploit a neighbour.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,356
    HYUFD said:

    And Scots lose the biggest and wealthiest city in Europe, the largest financial centre in Europe, the 2 best universities in Europe and membership of the G7, G20 and permanent membership of the UN Security Council
    I think it's Murdo you need to be persuading..
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,121
    edited June 2022
    DavidL said:

    Plus some fairly significant subsidies.
    Plus of course on the current UK and EU trade deal there would be barriers to Scottish exports going to rUK, there would no be longer be a single market between Scotland and England
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,196

    It is not in the interests of England to exploit a neighbour.
    Nobody is exploiting anybody. Scotland has a lot to offer. So does England. Isn't it great that we can share all of it?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,356
    HYUFD said:

    Plus of course on the current UK and EU trade deal there would be barriers to Scottish exports going to rUK, there would be longer be a single market between Scotland and England
    Yer awfy (unpersuasively) squeaky for someone who is certain there's not going to be another referendum.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Fair point. I've made up my mind never to buy any ;-)
    You’ll soon be able to buy for buttons.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,302

    Good questions Rory, good questions.


    Is "Devon's Choice" an actual publication or just a Tory leaflet?

    If the latter, "Our view on the by-election Why we're backing Helen Hurford" is a bit disingenuous, to put it mildly.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,121

    Yer awfy (unpersuasively) squeaky for someone who is certain there's not going to be another referendum.
    I would never allow another referendum for a generation and the government has made clear it wouldn't either but if it did and Yes won that would be the result.

    Realistically though only a hung parliament and Starmer needing SNP confidence and supply to become PM leads to indyref2
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,302
    Nigelb said:

    A large part of that, though not all, is a confection of right wing media.
    And there are as a result, of course, two sides to that coin.
    https://www.propublica.org/article/georgia-dei-crt-schools-parents
    Perhaps @Leon's right after all - there is such a thing as a Cancel Culture, judging by that Propublica article.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,121

    Is "Devon's Choice" an actual publication or just a Tory leaflet?

    If the latter, "Our view on the by-election Why we're backing Helen Hurford" is a bit disingenuous, to put it mildly.
    It is by far the best chance to scrape a Tory win in the by election though, with a good local candidate the focus
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,012
    Cyclefree said:

    Agreed that the ECHR is not perfect. But those attacking it are not acting in good faith. The attacks are in utter bad faith because they do not want to make it better or more effective. They simply want to get rid of it. The judge being foreign is simply the pretext used.

    The Tory party is increasingly adopting a "l'etat c'est moi" cast of mind. This is profoundly unconservative and dangerous for our democracy.
    This, understandably, confuses two positions. It is a perfectly reasonable position to believe that the best way of protecting human rights within the UK is by adhering to the principles of the ECHR under the jurisdiction of UK courts.

    Less brilliant of course is to think that all foreign/international systems are rubbish.

  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,485

    Is "Devon's Choice" an actual publication or just a Tory leaflet?

    If the latter, "Our view on the by-election Why we're backing Helen Hurford" is a bit disingenuous, to put it mildly.
    No doubt some lovely pictures of the aforementioned and presumably all the Tory activists' dogs (who apparently love eating LD literature) will find this much less digestible.

    Others, though, may find this soft, long and highly absorbing.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,302

    You’ll soon be able to buy for buttons.
    I'll stick to tulip bulbs - I am sure their time will come again.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,735

    Is "Devon's Choice" an actual publication or just a Tory leaflet?

    If the latter, "Our view on the by-election Why we're backing Helen Hurford" is a bit disingenuous, to put it mildly.
    A Tory leaflet.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,121
    Yougov. Would you prefer your children to study for a degree or do an apprenticeship?

    Degree 35%
    Apprenticeship 44%

    Remainers Degree 50%

    Leavers Apprenticeship 56%


    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1538115066200981505?s=20&t=VGA1FQQWBV_3HS6SnWXgbg
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,196

    I'll stick to tulip bulbs - I am sure their time will come again.
    I'm tempted to go for choclate buttons myself but there may be dangerous stock control problems.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,846
    edited June 2022
    ..

    I think it's Murdo you need to be persuading..
    This is a pretty piss poor attack by you. There is a profound economical and social benefit to England and RUK to having Scotland stay, and I don't see any harm in it being stated, other than to be moronically posted about as further grievance material. The people offended and appalled by this were already offended and appalled.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,203

    ..

    This is a pretty piss poor attack by you. There is a profound economic and social benefit to England and RUK to having Scotland stay, and I don't see any harm in it being stated, other than to be moronically posted about as further grievance material. The people offended and appalled by this were already offended and appalled.
    One thing I notice is that such folks are “offended and appalled” pretty much regardless of Murdo et al’s activities.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,570
    HYUFD said:

    I would never allow another referendum for a generation and the government has made clear it wouldn't either but if it did and Yes won that would be the result.

    Realistically though only a hung parliament and Starmer needing SNP confidence and supply to become PM leads to indyref2
    Johnson might agree to one as he knows Nicola doesn't actually want one in next year because she would lose and then SNP implodes.

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,356

    ..

    This is a pretty piss poor attack by you. There is a profound economic and social benefit to England and RUK to having Scotland stay, and I don't see any harm in it being stated, other than to be moronically posted about as further grievance material. The people offended and appalled by this were already offended and appalled.
    Who's offended and appalled (apart from you at perceived pissy poorness)? I'm gratified and amused!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,302
    DavidL said:

    I'm tempted to go for choclate buttons myself but there may be dangerous stock control problems.
    That is proving to be an ongoing problem with my vintage wine portfolio tbf.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,929
    edited June 2022
    Leon said:

    I somehow always imagined bears living in deeply forested places. These hills are largely bald, or blessed with low shrubs

    Who knew

    The charming woman who runs these lodges says she has seen bears “many times”. They even have a little sprinkling of leopards

    So maybe I did see a wildcat last night. It was definitely not a domestic tabby
    The bears I've met in the US were in semi-open landscapes with low shrubs - although the low shrubs were huckleberries and therefore food.

    At least you could see them at a distance. Surprising one in any sort of cover is what you don't want to do, hence the recommendation to make some noise.

    Some US hikers have bells but that gets annoying after a while, so we always spoke a few loud words before turning a blind corner. 'No bears, no bears' etc.


    Talking of encountering strange things outdoors, I had a Gasteruption jaculator in the garden yesterday...

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,846

    Who's offended and appalled (apart from you at perceived pissy poorness)? I'm gratified and amused!
    I suppose I'd just like to be treated to premium economy class Scottish nationalist grievance mongering if possible, rather than the Easyjet stuff.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    dixiedean said:

    Was there an "it's up to them, they are free individuals with agency" option?
    You’ve just highlighted one of the starkest weaknesses in contemporary English society: it is assumed that elders are betters. They really aren’t.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,121

    Johnson might agree to one as he knows Nicola doesn't actually want one in next year because she would lose and then SNP implodes.

    But if Johnson loses it he is definitely out of No 10, so he won't
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,356

    I suppose I'd just like to be treated to premium economy class Scottish nationalist grievance mongering if possible, rather than the Easyjet stuff.
    On PB it's usually replacement bus service Yoon grievance mongering going round the same old route of 8 years ago, but bus conductor Murdo's new approach of reciting the reasons that Scotland could thrive as an independent country makes a refreshing change.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Wow! This is horrific. How the British Empire treated the men who died in support of the regime:

    The long-held explanation is grisly: according to reports made soon after the conflict, the bones were collected, pulverised and turned into fertiliser for agricultural use.

    “It is certainly a singular fact that Great Britain should have sent out multitudes of soldiers to fight the battles of this country upon the continent of Europe, and should then import the bones as an article of commerce to fatten her soil!” the London Observer reported in November 1822.

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2022/jun/18/mystery-of-waterloos-dead-soldiers-to-be-re-examined-by-academics
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,121
    dixiedean said:

    Was there an "it's up to them, they are free individuals with agency" option?
    Notable however that Remainers strongly favour degrees and Leavers even more strongly apprenticeships, so another proxy for the graduates v non graduates divide which was the key division of Brexit. Even more than age eg graduates over 65 voted Remain and non graduates under 35 voted Leave
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,575
    HYUFD said:

    And Scots lose the biggest and wealthiest city in Europe, the largest financial centre in Europe, the 2 best universities in Europe and membership of the G7, G20 and permanent membership of the UN Security Council
    Moscow's not in the UK.

    As for the unis, I reckon Hull would be interested in an offer from Scotland.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,121

    Wow! This is horrific. How the British Empire treated the men who died in support of the regime:

    The long-held explanation is grisly: according to reports made soon after the conflict, the bones were collected, pulverised and turned into fertiliser for agricultural use.

    “It is certainly a singular fact that Great Britain should have sent out multitudes of soldiers to fight the battles of this country upon the continent of Europe, and should then import the bones as an article of commerce to fatten her soil!” the London Observer reported in November 1822.

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2022/jun/18/mystery-of-waterloos-dead-soldiers-to-be-re-examined-by-academics

    What a ludicrous take, there were more Belgians and Dutch in Wellington's forces at Waterloo v Napoleon than non Europeans from the emerging British Empire.

    Not to mention the Prussians joined the British too later in the battle
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,121

    On PB it's usually replacement bus service Yoon grievance mongering going round the same old route of 8 years ago, but bus conductor Murdo's new approach of reciting the reasons that Scotland could thrive as an independent country makes a refreshing change.
    Scottish independence would be a loss to England no doubt.

    However even more a loss to Scotland once the trade barriers are erected to its largest export destination, Westminster subsidies to Scotland are ended and Scotland had to leave the G7, G20 and UN Security Council
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,177

    ‘Workers cannot expect pay rises to keep up with soaring cost of living, Treasury warns’

    In other words: brace yourselves for a real decline in living standards.

    Why the fuck shouldn’t we expect pay rises to keep up with inflation??
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,121

    Why the fuck shouldn’t we expect pay rises to keep up with inflation??
    As it drives inflation further and we are back to the 1970s
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,177
    HYUFD said:

    As it drives inflation further and we are back to the 1970s
    Then clearly we never fixed the problem.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,121

    Then clearly we never fixed the problem.
    Thatcher and Major did through tight controls on spending and wage restraint. It can come back again as it already is starting to after the Ukraine war and excess demand post lockdown
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,356
    HYUFD said:

    What a ludicrous take, there were more Belgians and Dutch in Wellington's forces at Waterloo v Napoleon than non Europeans from the emerging British Empire.

    Not to mention the Prussians joined the British too later in the battle
    Who mentioned non Europeans? English, Scottish and Irish troops were as much defenders of the Empire as anyone. I believe at least half of Wellington's British troops were Irish and Scottish.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,177
    HYUFD said:

    Thatcher and Major did through tight controls on spending and wage restraint. It can come back again as it already is starting to after the Ukraine war and excess demand post lockdown
    There will be no control on spending Though. The Tory client vote demands the money tap being left on.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,121

    Who mentioned non Europeans? English, Scottish and Irish troops were as much defenders of the Empire as anyone. I believe at least half of Wellington's British troops were Irish and Scottish.
    They weren't part of the Empire but the Union of the UK.

    Indeed most of the Empire in Africa and the Middle East for example had not yet been created and in India, Australia, Canada and New Zealand it was only barely emerging.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,076

    Is "Devon's Choice" an actual publication or just a Tory leaflet?

    If the latter, "Our view on the by-election Why we're backing Helen Hurford" is a bit disingenuous, to put it mildly.
    Devon's choice: "right arm over"
This discussion has been closed.