Graham Brady – the man to whom the VONC letters are sent – politicalbetting.com

Stuartinromford said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Sandpit said:

.

Foxy said:

kjh said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

noneoftheabove said:

Casino_Royale said:

noneoftheabove said:

Scott_xP said:

Taking back control-
Aviation chaos: We need to talk about Brexit | The Independent https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/airport-airline-chaos-flight-brexit-b2091300.html

“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death.
https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752

Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.

Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?

I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.

We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.

Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.

Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.

It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.

I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.

I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.

Lets get on with it.

However what we do re NI I have no idea.

I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.

Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.

Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.

Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.

Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions

Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so

Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.

Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .

Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic

And for now, he's right to do so. Noise and toxicity beat raw numbers.

I stick by my calendar proposed on Brexit Day;

The 2024 rewrite of the TCA (which has to happen) will actually promote trade and co-operation at the expense of the UK giving up some of the more hypothetical freedoms.

2029 will be EEA in all but name.

2040ish will be the UK choosing to be in the room when decisions are taken.

FrankBooth said:

Too good to be true?

There's a suggestion going around that Ukrainian forces who were supposed to have withdrawn from Severodonetsk have instead trapped the Russians there. Would be a very interesting move and apparently there are the same network of underground tunnels as we saw in Mariupol.

Leon said:

OldKingCole said:

Leon said:

OldKingCole said:

Farooq said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Sandpit said:

.

Foxy said:

kjh said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

noneoftheabove said:

Casino_Royale said:

noneoftheabove said:

Scott_xP said:

Taking back control-
Aviation chaos: We need to talk about Brexit | The Independent https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/airport-airline-chaos-flight-brexit-b2091300.html

“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death.
https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752

Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.

Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?

I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.

We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.

Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.

Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.

It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.

I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.

I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.

Lets get on with it.

However what we do re NI I have no idea.

I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.

Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.

Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.

Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.

Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions

Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so

Remainers: we don't like this one little bit
Leavers: STOP SUBVERTING THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE TRAITOR. GET OUT OF THE WAY, SIT DOWN, SHUT UP, AND LET US GET ON WITH THIS
Remainers: ...
Leavers: WHY AREN'T YOU ADMITTING YOU WANT TO REJOIN?

I don't know anyone who has anything to do with international trade, or with reasonably high education, who doesn't think Leaving was a mistake, and doesn't want to rejoin.

You don’t get out much if you don’t meet well-educated Leavers

On the other hand, you express an underlying truth which I have now been noting for a while. There is a lot of Rejoin sentiment out there, especially on the Left (where it is intense), as soon as Labour reach power (they will try and hide all this until then) it will burst into the open like a nest of spiderlings hatching out. Starmer, if he is PM, will come under immediate, severe pressure to move swiftly closer to the EU

Una popcornio momenta

Sadly, Leon, I can barely get out at all these days. I should have said anyone outside one or two people on boards such as this, to be more accurate.

I’m sorry to hear that and I hope PB provides a modicum of entertainment to distract you

Big_G_NorthWales said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

https://twitter.com/mattuthompson/status/1532659758691454976

LBC's Matthew Thompson on Twitter: Well. What was previously a joyous atmosphere turns to a chorus of boos and whistles as Boris and Carrie Johnson walk up the steps into St Paul’s Cathedral.

"They want to touch him, they love Boris".

He's finished.

Actually Sky kept playing his reception and concluded he received applause and boos much in equal number

Carnyx said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

algarkirk said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Sandpit said:

.

Foxy said:

kjh said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

noneoftheabove said:

Casino_Royale said:

noneoftheabove said:

Scott_xP said:

Taking back control-
Aviation chaos: We need to talk about Brexit | The Independent https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/airport-airline-chaos-flight-brexit-b2091300.html

“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death.
https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752

Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.

Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?

I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.

We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.

Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.

Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.

It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.

I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.

I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.

Lets get on with it.

However what we do re NI I have no idea.

I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.

Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.

Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.

Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.

Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions

Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so

Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.

Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .

Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic

Agree. The tricky questions are: What about EEA/EFTA
and
under a non Boris government would the EU be more open to flexible negotiation about SM and derogation from FOM.

Brexit would never have won if there had been a common sense derogation over FOM.

Your last sentence is spot on, and the EU have a lot of responsibility over their inflexibility which led to Brexit

You mean the incompetence of the governments you supported which did nothing about the key driver of FOM - entitlement to jobs and benefits simply by residence, without further qualification. Absolutely classic example of a Brexiter blaming the EU for his own government's incompetence.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Carnyx said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

algarkirk said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Sandpit said:

.

Foxy said:

kjh said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

noneoftheabove said:

Casino_Royale said:

noneoftheabove said:

Scott_xP said:

Taking back control-
Aviation chaos: We need to talk about Brexit | The Independent https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/airport-airline-chaos-flight-brexit-b2091300.html

“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death.
https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752

Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.

Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?

I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.

We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.

Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.

Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.

It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.

I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.

I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.

Lets get on with it.

However what we do re NI I have no idea.

I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.

Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.

Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.

Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.

Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions

Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so

Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.

Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .

Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic

Agree. The tricky questions are: What about EEA/EFTA
and
under a non Boris government would the EU be more open to flexible negotiation about SM and derogation from FOM.

Brexit would never have won if there had been a common sense derogation over FOM.

Your last sentence is spot on, and the EU have a lot of responsibility over their inflexibility which led to Brexit

You mean the incompetence of the governments you supported which did nothing about the key driver of FOM - entitlement to jobs and benefits simply by residence, without further qualification. Absolutely classic example of a Brexiter blaming the EU for his own government's incompetence.

Cameron did everything to seek the EU to compromise and no compromise came

I voted remain, and your inability to agree with the view the EU's stubborn attitude is not shared by many others

JosiasJessop said:

FrankBooth said:

Too good to be true?

There's a suggestion going around that Ukrainian forces who were supposed to have withdrawn from Severodonetsk have instead trapped the Russians there. Would be a very interesting move and apparently there are the same network of underground tunnels as we saw in Mariupol.

Possibly too good to be true. However: the Ukrainians have had a couple of months to prepare, and the experience of Mariupol (where they had much less time) shows they are very good at defensive strategies.

In the meantime, the Russians just seem to be going for a dumb throw-men-and-material-at-the-problem strategy.

But sometimes dumb wins...

JosiasJessop said:

FrankBooth said:

Too good to be true?

There's a suggestion going around that Ukrainian forces who were supposed to have withdrawn from Severodonetsk have instead trapped the Russians there. Would be a very interesting move and apparently there are the same network of underground tunnels as we saw in Mariupol.

Possibly too good to be true. However: the Ukrainians have had a couple of months to prepare, and the experience of Mariupol (where they had much less time) shows they are very good at defensive strategies.

In the meantime, the Russians just seem to be going for a dumb throw-men-and-material-at-the-problem strategy.

But sometimes dumb wins...

rottenborough said:

wooliedyed said:

GarethoftheVale2 said:

Question - does the UK have a designated survivor for public events like the US does? Seems like an awful lot of the UK's senior people are all in one place right now.

We do not, surviving MPs/cabinet would select a PM, crown to next in line thats not wiped out, i assume Andrew would be convinced to pass it, or would take a turn for the worse, sharpish

Isn't the Queen the designated survivor this morning?

She's a home watching it on tv with a cuppa and a packet of hobnobs.

Farooq said:

Carnyx said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

https://twitter.com/mattuthompson/status/1532659758691454976

LBC's Matthew Thompson on Twitter: Well. What was previously a joyous atmosphere turns to a chorus of boos and whistles as Boris and Carrie Johnson walk up the steps into St Paul’s Cathedral.

"They want to touch him, they love Boris".

He's finished.

Sounds like a mix of booing and cheering.

About what you'd expect from any PM, especially a controversial Tory one.

If everyone who was ever booed was "finished" then we'd never have a Tory government.

No; it's such a strange occasion to even boo anyone. Remember this will be wall to wall Royalists, ergo the elderly/Tory in particular, with a few tourists without any hound in the fight.

We need a camera on the crowd to know for sure. If there's a section of protesters who are there just to boo the PM then fine, it doesn't tell us anything.
If it's 50-something new grandmothers with little union flags there to see the royals, then Boris is heading for a nasty (and well-deserved) crunch.

wooliedyed said:

rottenborough said:

wooliedyed said:

GarethoftheVale2 said:

Question - does the UK have a designated survivor for public events like the US does? Seems like an awful lot of the UK's senior people are all in one place right now.

We do not, surviving MPs/cabinet would select a PM, crown to next in line thats not wiped out, i assume Andrew would be convinced to pass it, or would take a turn for the worse, sharpish

Isn't the Queen the designated survivor this morning?

She's a home watching it on tv with a cuppa and a packet of hobnobs.

This is a rather pertinent point i had forgotten as im not watching!

CorrectHorseBattery said:

OldKingCole said:

Leon said:

OldKingCole said:

Farooq said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Sandpit said:

.

Foxy said:

kjh said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

noneoftheabove said:

Casino_Royale said:

noneoftheabove said:

Scott_xP said:

Taking back control-
Aviation chaos: We need to talk about Brexit | The Independent https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/airport-airline-chaos-flight-brexit-b2091300.html

“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death.
https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752

Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.

Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?

I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.

We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.

Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.

Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.

It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.

I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.

I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.

Lets get on with it.

However what we do re NI I have no idea.

I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.

Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.

Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.

Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.

Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions

Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so

Remainers: we don't like this one little bit
Leavers: STOP SUBVERTING THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE TRAITOR. GET OUT OF THE WAY, SIT DOWN, SHUT UP, AND LET US GET ON WITH THIS
Remainers: ...
Leavers: WHY AREN'T YOU ADMITTING YOU WANT TO REJOIN?

I don't know anyone who has anything to do with international trade, or with reasonably high education, who doesn't think Leaving was a mistake, and doesn't want to rejoin.

You don’t get out much if you don’t meet well-educated Leavers

On the other hand, you express an underlying truth which I have now been noting for a while. There is a lot of Rejoin sentiment out there, especially on the Left (where it is intense), as soon as Labour reach power (they will try and hide all this until then) it will burst into the open like a nest of spiderlings hatching out. Starmer, if he is PM, will come under immediate, severe pressure to move swiftly closer to the EU

Una popcornio momenta

Sadly, Leon, I can barely get out at all these days. I should have said anyone outside one or two people on boards such as this, to be more accurate.

We are always pleased to have you here OKC, I hope you are keeping well.

CorrectHorseBattery said:

wooliedyed said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Johnson is done if that's the public reaction, he's no longer "one of the lads", he's a spineless coward, bully and a liar. He has nothing left.

Labour should be absolutely storming in any GE, I really should consider chucking a quid on a landslide

They should. But they arent. They are a few ahead. Even Blair would have been only just into landslide without Scotland and he started many seats closer

If you look at Green + LD + Labour they are way ahead of the Tories. That's where Blair was pulling the numbers from when he polled so far ahead.

Recall that in 1997 he only achieved 43%, so not far off where Labour are now and the Tories got 29%. Not far off where they are now.

We are in the range of landslide, Labour just have more seats to make up + Scotland as you said (although with being second they'll probably win 7+ seats there anyway)

Carnyx said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

https://twitter.com/mattuthompson/status/1532659758691454976

LBC's Matthew Thompson on Twitter: Well. What was previously a joyous atmosphere turns to a chorus of boos and whistles as Boris and Carrie Johnson walk up the steps into St Paul’s Cathedral.

"They want to touch him, they love Boris".

He's finished.

Actually Sky kept playing his reception and concluded he received applause and boos much in equal number

I remember when Tim made a song and dance about George Osborne getting booed at the London Olympics.

He remained Chancellor for four more years, including helping the Tories gain seats and win an overall majority three years after the booing.

Boris should go, but boos are nothing new or newsworthy.

No, the Olympics were blatantly political. This is a specifically Royal event. Like breaking wind at an Easter service in Cantderbury Cathedral, only it's intentional. Utterly intrusive.

IshmaelZ said:

Foxy said:

GarethoftheVale2 said:

Question - does the UK have a designated survivor for public events like the US does? Seems like an awful lot of the UK's senior people are all in one place right now.

Randy Andy isn't there...

The mini Meghans have priority over him. la reine est morte, vive la reine lilibet!

JosiasJessop said:

FrankBooth said:

Too good to be true?

There's a suggestion going around that Ukrainian forces who were supposed to have withdrawn from Severodonetsk have instead trapped the Russians there. Would be a very interesting move and apparently there are the same network of underground tunnels as we saw in Mariupol.

Possibly too good to be true. However: the Ukrainians have had a couple of months to prepare, and the experience of Mariupol (where they had much less time) shows they are very good at defensive strategies.

In the meantime, the Russians just seem to be going for a dumb throw-men-and-material-at-the-problem strategy.

But sometimes dumb wins...

Farooq said:

Aslan said:

kle4 said:

Farooq said:

Stuartinromford said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Sandpit said:

.

Foxy said:

kjh said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

noneoftheabove said:

Casino_Royale said:

noneoftheabove said:

Scott_xP said:

Taking back control-
Aviation chaos: We need to talk about Brexit | The Independent https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/airport-airline-chaos-flight-brexit-b2091300.html

“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death.
https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752

Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.

Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?

I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.

We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.

Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.

Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.

It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.

I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.

I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.

Lets get on with it.

However what we do re NI I have no idea.

I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.

Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.

Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.

Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.

Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions

Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so

Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.

Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .

Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic

And for now, he's right to do so. Noise and toxicity beat raw numbers.

I stick by my calendar proposed on Brexit Day;

The 2024 rewrite of the TCA (which has to happen) will actually promote trade and co-operation at the expense of the UK giving up some of the more hypothetical freedoms.

2029 will be EEA in all but name.

2040ish will be the UK choosing to be in the room when decisions are taken.

A generation of withered trade and soured relationships. And all so Boomers with 3 O-Levels could get a different coloured passport and a vacuum cleaner that pumps out useless extra heat.

I suppose those with 3 O levels were to be respected previously when they voted the right way?

It's the contempt Remainers can't stop. "Anyone that disagrees with me is old and thick". They are completely unable to have a level headed conversation about it.

And in most discussions they can't even make a single concession in the argument. If you point out the predictions of the Remain campaign all turned out to be flat out lies, they will twist and turn trying to pretend otherwise. At best they will try to say the predictions were from evil Tories, rather ignoring the Labour leader of the Remain campaign repeating them everywhere.

Some of the Remain predictions were flat out lies.

There, happy now? It's really not hard. Sorry if I spoiled your day.

Aslan said:

Foxy said:

Sandpit said:

Foxy said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Sandpit said:

.

Foxy said:

kjh said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

noneoftheabove said:

Casino_Royale said:

noneoftheabove said:

Scott_xP said:

Taking back control-
Aviation chaos: We need to talk about Brexit | The Independent https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/airport-airline-chaos-flight-brexit-b2091300.html

“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death.
https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752

Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.

Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?

I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.

We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.

Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.

Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.

It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.

I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.

I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.

Lets get on with it.

However what we do re NI I have no idea.

I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.

Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.

Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.

Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.

Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions

Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so

Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.

Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .

Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic

Oh, I agree, but they do support much closer regulatory alignment, which means following EU rules and policy. It is the same direction but a slower track.

Following EU rules, but without any say in them, is a recipe for disaster.

Macron would delight in adding a “Screw the British” clause into every single piece of legislation, and direct tough enforcement for minor transgressions - as the French continue to ignore any rules they don’t like.

Absolutely, which is why the logic then is to Rejoin so as to have a say in the rules.

How would we have a say any more than when we were in? Remainers are still unable to give a single example of us winning out over the French-German position (agreed in advance of every EU summit).

Farooq said:

Carnyx said:

Farooq said:

kle4 said:

Farooq said:

Stuartinromford said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Sandpit said:

.

Foxy said:

kjh said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

noneoftheabove said:

Casino_Royale said:

noneoftheabove said:

Scott_xP said:

Taking back control-
Aviation chaos: We need to talk about Brexit | The Independent https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/airport-airline-chaos-flight-brexit-b2091300.html

“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death.
https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752

Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.

Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?

I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.

We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.

Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.

Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.

It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.

I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.

I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.

Lets get on with it.

However what we do re NI I have no idea.

I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.

Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.

Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.

Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.

Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions

Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so

Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.

Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .

Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic

And for now, he's right to do so. Noise and toxicity beat raw numbers.

I stick by my calendar proposed on Brexit Day;

The 2024 rewrite of the TCA (which has to happen) will actually promote trade and co-operation at the expense of the UK giving up some of the more hypothetical freedoms.

2029 will be EEA in all but name.

2040ish will be the UK choosing to be in the room when decisions are taken.

A generation of withered trade and soured relationships. And all so Boomers with 3 O-Levels could get a different coloured passport and a vacuum cleaner that pumps out useless extra heat.

I suppose those with 3 O levels were to be respected previously when they voted the right way?

Well I think if we had a less in-work and pensioner poverty they might not have lashed out in such a self-defeating way.
If they voted to not be poorer that's all very nice but it's the passports and vacuum cleaners they'll be getting instead.

If they can afford them.

I'm sure if they gave up their avocado toast they could. Did you know you can eat for 30p a day?

Andy_JS said:

kinabalu said:

Morning all. I think this one is pretty easy. The ideal is obviously to have standard units of measurement that everyone - young and old, right left or centrist, British or burdened by being foreign - understands and uses. That's the point of a measurement system. Clarity and consistency across people and places. So this should be the direction of travel. Going in the opposite direction, whilst not the most terrible thing in the world, is a bit silly. Which is on brand for this government. Everything they do that isn't terrible is a bit silly.

Hardly anyone in the UK uses metric measurements to describe their height.

northern_monkey said:

This is an insightful piece on the Brexit omertà. https://mattcarr.substack.com/p/the-silence-of-the-lambs?utm_source=twitter&sd=fs&s=r

… Ukraine, the pandemic, and related matters are all contributing factors. But Brexit runs through almost all these developments like a stick of rock. Brexit has reduced the ability of airline companies to recruit baggage handlers and airport staff. Brexit paperwork continually slows down traffic at Dover and other ports.

Brexit has increased export costs for small businesses and larger companies. The prospect of further Brexit tariffs is one reason why Jaguar Land Rover is talking about shifting battery production to Slovakia. The UK government’s sabre-rattling about the Northern Ireland Protocol has increased pressure on the pound by deterring investors.

… there are certain aspects of our national experience that are entirely related to Brexit, and yet no one wants to mention them.

… Brexit is unsayable to the Johnson cabal and the Tory Party. Real world problems cannot be spoken about by a Vote Leave government that is more concerned with its own salvation than the real world, and a party hollowed out by a rightwing takeover that has transformed support for Brexit into the lodestone of what it means to be a Tory or even a loyal citizen.

… Brexit problems have become the invisible terrors of which Tories dare not speak… The 2016 referendum was won because Leave campaigners pretended there would be no negative consequences for leaving the European Union. Any seeds of doubt would have threatened the vote, and to some extent their ongoing silence is a continuation of that.

To acknowledge post-Brexit problems now would risk exposing the dishonesty and delusion at the heart of the Brexit project in the first place. It might lead the public to ask unwelcome questions about why these problems are taking place when Brexiteers denied that they would ever happen, and what Brexiters did to prepare for them or plan for them, and what they propose to do now.

…Terrified of falling into the Red Wall Brexit trap, the Labour Party has been almost as silent as the government, focussing on ‘making Brexit work’, without saying how, and referring to - wait for it -’post-Brexit opportunities’ while studiously ignoring post-Brexit negativities.

And how about the UK media? What about the state broadcaster? Can’t they ask the questions that politicians aren’t asking? They could, but with some exceptions, they prefer not to, and don’t draw the dots even when the outline of the picture is obvious.

… a complex and precarious democracy of 67 million people is being asked to shut its eyes to the act of gratuitous self-harm it has inflicted on itself, in order to protect a dishonest government and a clueless political class from ignominy… there are no sunlit uplands waiting for us, only an endless series of crises made so much worse by the problems that we refuse to speak about.

CarlottaVance said:

IshmaelZ said:

Foxy said:

GarethoftheVale2 said:

Question - does the UK have a designated survivor for public events like the US does? Seems like an awful lot of the UK's senior people are all in one place right now.

Randy Andy isn't there...

The mini Meghans have priority over him. la reine est morte, vive la reine lilibet!

None of George, Charlotte or Louis are there - and Archie is ahead of Lilibet…..

And as for the Govt…..I don’t think Raab or Patel are there….

CarlottaVance said:

rottenborough said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

https://twitter.com/mattuthompson/status/1532659758691454976

LBC's Matthew Thompson on Twitter: Well. What was previously a joyous atmosphere turns to a chorus of boos and whistles as Boris and Carrie Johnson walk up the steps into St Paul’s Cathedral.

"They want to touch him, they love Boris".

He's finished.

Actually Sky kept playing his reception and concluded he received applause and boos much in equal number

As long as the mob are booing politicians and not the royals then all is well in England.

Robert Lacey on BBC1 earlier remarked that the Prime Minister represents what divides us, while the monarchy represents what unites us.

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Boris will apparently read "whatever is true, whatever is honourable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is pleasing, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence and if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things". Which is quite a bold play...

MattW said:

Farooq said:

Carnyx said:

Farooq said:

kle4 said:

Farooq said:

Stuartinromford said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Sandpit said:

.

Foxy said:

kjh said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

noneoftheabove said:

Casino_Royale said:

noneoftheabove said:

Scott_xP said:

Taking back control-
Aviation chaos: We need to talk about Brexit | The Independent https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/airport-airline-chaos-flight-brexit-b2091300.html

“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death.
https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752

Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.

Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?

I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.

We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.

Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.

Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.

It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.

I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.

I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.

Lets get on with it.

However what we do re NI I have no idea.

I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.

Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.

Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.

Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.

Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions

Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so

Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.

Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .

Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic

And for now, he's right to do so. Noise and toxicity beat raw numbers.

I stick by my calendar proposed on Brexit Day;

The 2024 rewrite of the TCA (which has to happen) will actually promote trade and co-operation at the expense of the UK giving up some of the more hypothetical freedoms.

2029 will be EEA in all but name.

2040ish will be the UK choosing to be in the room when decisions are taken.

A generation of withered trade and soured relationships. And all so Boomers with 3 O-Levels could get a different coloured passport and a vacuum cleaner that pumps out useless extra heat.

I suppose those with 3 O levels were to be respected previously when they voted the right way?

Well I think if we had a less in-work and pensioner poverty they might not have lashed out in such a self-defeating way.
If they voted to not be poorer that's all very nice but it's the passports and vacuum cleaners they'll be getting instead.

If they can afford them.

I'm sure if they gave up their avocado toast they could. Did you know you can eat for 30p a day?

Hmmm.

1 - Don't mention that France 24 is reporting airport chaos across Europe, it will destroy the propaganda. Due to (quote) "staff shortages and passenger increase due to the pandemic", citing Dublin, Schipol and Lisbon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMelspGa5Gk

2 - Interesting comments.

3 - Who claimed that you could eat for 30p a day? My MP Lee Anderson certainly did not.

Foxy said:

Sandpit said:

JosiasJessop said:

FrankBooth said:

Too good to be true?

There's a suggestion going around that Ukrainian forces who were supposed to have withdrawn from Severodonetsk have instead trapped the Russians there. Would be a very interesting move and apparently there are the same network of underground tunnels as we saw in Mariupol.

Possibly too good to be true. However: the Ukrainians have had a couple of months to prepare, and the experience of Mariupol (where they had much less time) shows they are very good at defensive strategies.

In the meantime, the Russians just seem to be going for a dumb throw-men-and-material-at-the-problem strategy.

But sometimes dumb wins...

Evenually, every army runs out of men and materiel, certainly in terms of what it can get to the front lines.

In other news, Ukranians are training in the UK on medium-range rocket-launchers due to be supplied there shortly. The Russians are dragging T-62s out of storage, and trying to keep them working long enough to get somewhere near a front line.

The problem for the Ukranians is that the modern arms are complex and sparse, so the Russian artillery has the advantage, particularly in the Donbas, with Russias short supply lines, and Ukranian ones more exposed.

I think what the Ukranians have done in Severodonetsk is what the Vietcong called "hugging the enemy". The aim is to be so close to the enemy that they cannot use their artillery and airpower, thereby levelling the playing field. At that point morale and local knowledge become decisive.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Sandpit said:

.

Foxy said:

kjh said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

noneoftheabove said:

Casino_Royale said:

noneoftheabove said:

Scott_xP said:

Taking back control-
Aviation chaos: We need to talk about Brexit | The Independent https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/airport-airline-chaos-flight-brexit-b2091300.html

“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death.
https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752

Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.

Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?

I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.

We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.

Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.

Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.

It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.

I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.

I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.

Lets get on with it.

However what we do re NI I have no idea.

I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.

Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.

Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.

Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.

Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions

Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so

Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.

Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .

I simply have not heard the lib dems state their intention is to rejoin

Labour will have to have a credible position for the next GE

Leon said:

Remainers predicting we will Rejoin by 2040 should, perhaps, consider how the world has changed in the last six years, since Brexit. They are trying to look forward TWELVE years

Farooq said:

MattW said:

Farooq said:

Carnyx said:

Farooq said:

kle4 said:

Farooq said:

Stuartinromford said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Sandpit said:

.

Foxy said:

kjh said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

noneoftheabove said:

Casino_Royale said:

noneoftheabove said:

Scott_xP said:

Taking back control-
Aviation chaos: We need to talk about Brexit | The Independent https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/airport-airline-chaos-flight-brexit-b2091300.html

“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death.
https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752

Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.

Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?

I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.

We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.

Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.

Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.

It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.

I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.

I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.

Lets get on with it.

However what we do re NI I have no idea.

I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.

Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.

Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.

Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.

Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions

Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so

Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.

Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .

Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic

And for now, he's right to do so. Noise and toxicity beat raw numbers.

I stick by my calendar proposed on Brexit Day;

The 2024 rewrite of the TCA (which has to happen) will actually promote trade and co-operation at the expense of the UK giving up some of the more hypothetical freedoms.

2029 will be EEA in all but name.

2040ish will be the UK choosing to be in the room when decisions are taken.

A generation of withered trade and soured relationships. And all so Boomers with 3 O-Levels could get a different coloured passport and a vacuum cleaner that pumps out useless extra heat.

I suppose those with 3 O levels were to be respected previously when they voted the right way?

Well I think if we had a less in-work and pensioner poverty they might not have lashed out in such a self-defeating way.
If they voted to not be poorer that's all very nice but it's the passports and vacuum cleaners they'll be getting instead.

If they can afford them.

I'm sure if they gave up their avocado toast they could. Did you know you can eat for 30p a day?

Hmmm.

1 - Don't mention that France 24 is reporting airport chaos across Europe, it will destroy the propaganda. Due to (quote) "staff shortages and passenger increase due to the pandemic", citing Dublin, Schipol and Lisbon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMelspGa5Gk

2 - Interesting comments.

3 - Who claimed that you could eat for 30p a day? My MP Lee Anderson certainly did not.

Who said anything about airports?

Aslan said:

Leon said:

Aslan said:

kle4 said:

Farooq said:

Stuartinromford said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Sandpit said:

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Foxy said:

kjh said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

noneoftheabove said:

Casino_Royale said:

noneoftheabove said:

Scott_xP said:

Taking back control-
Aviation chaos: We need to talk about Brexit | The Independent https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/airport-airline-chaos-flight-brexit-b2091300.html

“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death.
https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752

Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.

Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?

I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.

We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.

Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.

Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.

It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.

I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.

I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.

Lets get on with it.

However what we do re NI I have no idea.

I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.

Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.

Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.

Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.

Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions

Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so

Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.

Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .

Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic

And for now, he's right to do so. Noise and toxicity beat raw numbers.

I stick by my calendar proposed on Brexit Day;

The 2024 rewrite of the TCA (which has to happen) will actually promote trade and co-operation at the expense of the UK giving up some of the more hypothetical freedoms.

2029 will be EEA in all but name.

2040ish will be the UK choosing to be in the room when decisions are taken.

A generation of withered trade and soured relationships. And all so Boomers with 3 O-Levels could get a different coloured passport and a vacuum cleaner that pumps out useless extra heat.

I suppose those with 3 O levels were to be respected previously when they voted the right way?

It's the contempt Remainers can't stop. "Anyone that disagrees with me is old and thick". They are completely unable to have a level headed conversation about it.

And in most discussions they can't even make a single concession in the argument. If you point out the predictions of the Remain campaign all turned out to be flat out lies, they will twist and turn trying to pretend otherwise. At best they will try to say the predictions were from evil Tories, rather ignoring the Labour leader of the Remain campaign repeating them everywhere.

Yes, they exude a fetid stench of sneering and snobbery, the Remainers: they cannot help themselves. The reek always escapes

It’s like Ken Livingstone trying to have a sensible conversation about Jews. Just wait a few minutes. Ah. There it is. Bingo

I remember listening to one Remainer podcast where they had on the lead singer of Elbow as a guest. He was a Remainer (they never would have any Leaver on, obviously) but from a very working class background. And working class in a way that he was still proud of and in touch with his roots, not a "I am so glad I escaped these people" type.

As he talked he framed things with such respect for Leavers (clearly knowing a lot of them), often taking a "yes they are right on this bit, but I think this other thing is more important". I remember thinking "thank God this guy wasn't in charge of StrongerIn". The main panel were all clearly very uncomfortable and skirted by any criticism of the EU very quickly, however.