Question - does the UK have a designated survivor for public events like the US does? Seems like an awful lot of the UK's senior people are all in one place right now.
Randy Andy isn't there...
The mini Meghans have priority over him. la reine est morte, vive la reine lilibet!
None of George, Charlotte or Louis are there - and Archie is ahead of Lilibet…..
And as for the Govt…..I don’t think Raab or Patel are there….
“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death. https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752
Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.
Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?
I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.
We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.
Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.
Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.
It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.
I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.
I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.
Lets get on with it.
However what we do re NI I have no idea.
I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.
Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.
Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.
Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.
Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions
Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so
Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.
Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .
I simply have not heard the lib dems state their intention is to rejoin
Labour will have to have a credible position for the next GE
I expect Labour to catch up with the Lib Dems once they see there is no danger. That is what they usually do.
“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death. https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752
Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.
Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?
I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.
We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.
Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.
Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.
It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.
I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.
I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.
Lets get on with it.
However what we do re NI I have no idea.
I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.
Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.
Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.
Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.
Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions
Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so
Remainers: we don't like this one little bit Leavers: STOP SUBVERTING THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE TRAITOR. GET OUT OF THE WAY, SIT DOWN, SHUT UP, AND LET US GET ON WITH THIS Remainers: ... Leavers: WHY AREN'T YOU ADMITTING YOU WANT TO REJOIN?
I don't know anyone who has anything to do with international trade, or with reasonably high education, who doesn't think Leaving was a mistake, and doesn't want to rejoin.
You don’t get out much if you don’t meet well-educated Leavers
On the other hand, you express an underlying truth which I have now been noting for a while. There is a lot of Rejoin sentiment out there, especially on the Left (where it is intense), as soon as Labour reach power (they will try and hide all this until then) it will burst into the open like a nest of spiderlings hatching out. Starmer, if he is PM, will come under immediate, severe pressure to move swiftly closer to the EU
Una popcornio momenta
Sadly, Leon, I can barely get out at all these days. I should have said anyone outside one or two people on boards such as this, to be more accurate.
Sorry to hear that OKC and hope things pick up. But even when they do and you're buzzing around again you still won't meet too many top drawer Leavers. 🙂
Remainers predicting we will Rejoin by 2040 should, perhaps, consider how the world has changed in the last six years, since Brexit. They are trying to look forward TWELVE years
LBC's Matthew Thompson on Twitter: Well. What was previously a joyous atmosphere turns to a chorus of boos and whistles as Boris and Carrie Johnson walk up the steps into St Paul’s Cathedral.
"They want to touch him, they love Boris".
He's finished.
Actually Sky kept playing his reception and concluded he received applause and boos much in equal number
As long as the mob are booing politicians and not the royals then all is well in England.
Robert Lacey on BBC1 earlier remarked that the Prime Minister represents what divides us, while the monarchy represents what unites us.
Yes but I do wonder sometimes if it would be better for the PM not to always represent that.
“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death. https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752
Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.
Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?
I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.
We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.
Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.
Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.
It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.
I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.
I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.
Lets get on with it.
However what we do re NI I have no idea.
I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.
Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.
Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.
Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.
Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions
Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so
Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.
Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .
Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic
And for now, he's right to do so. Noise and toxicity beat raw numbers.
I stick by my calendar proposed on Brexit Day;
The 2024 rewrite of the TCA (which has to happen) will actually promote trade and co-operation at the expense of the UK giving up some of the more hypothetical freedoms.
2029 will be EEA in all but name.
2040ish will be the UK choosing to be in the room when decisions are taken.
A generation of withered trade and soured relationships. And all so Boomers with 3 O-Levels could get a different coloured passport and a vacuum cleaner that pumps out useless extra heat.
I suppose those with 3 O levels were to be respected previously when they voted the right way?
Well I think if we had a less in-work and pensioner poverty they might not have lashed out in such a self-defeating way. If they voted to not be poorer that's all very nice but it's the passports and vacuum cleaners they'll be getting instead.
If they can afford them.
I'm sure if they gave up their avocado toast they could. Did you know you can eat for 30p a day?
Hmmm.
1 - Don't mention that France 24 is reporting airport chaos across Europe, it will destroy the propaganda. Due to (quote) "staff shortages and passenger increase due to the pandemic", citing Dublin, Schipol and Lisbon.
For me, like many Leavers, it was the Lisbon Treaty that made me decide to leave once it was clear that no meaningful renegotiation was possible.
Amongst many things that awful treaty did, as a nakedly transparent rehash of the EU Constitution, it gave the EU legal identity so it could sign treaties in its own name, without reference to its member nations, created a president and high commissioner for foreign affairs, drove a huge extension in QMV voting, and enshrined the Charter of Fundamental Rights into EU law. This was one of the most potent drivers for me as it made rights judicable by the ECJ which led to them demanding the UK review its policy of not giving suffrage to prisoners.
This was then exacerbated by the agenda laid down by the new President Juncker who wanted to go even further and laid out a vision of EU social and fiscal union on top. A man who Cameron tried to stop and failed to stop.
No. No No No.
If Cameron had managed to achieve what he'd laid out in his Bloomberg Speech in 2013 it might have been different, but it wasn't.
I won't vote for any party that wants to take the UK back into that.
Exactly right. The failures - the greatest UK policy failure since the war - go back a long time. A dose of democracy and some referendums when others had them would have kept the thing in bounds.
Remainers predicting we will Rejoin by 2040 should, perhaps, consider how the world has changed in the last six years, since Brexit. They are trying to look forward TWELVE years
EIGHTEEN years.
Think back to 2004 and how much of our politics has changed since then. People were wondering if the Tories would ever get back into office, the Iraq war was dominating politics and the primary European debate was whether and when we should join the Euro.
If anyone makes any confident predictions for two decades time, they're a fool.
“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death. https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752
Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.
Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?
I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.
We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.
Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.
Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.
It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.
I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.
I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.
Lets get on with it.
However what we do re NI I have no idea.
I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.
Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.
Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.
Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.
Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions
Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so
Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.
Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .
Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic
And for now, he's right to do so. Noise and toxicity beat raw numbers.
I stick by my calendar proposed on Brexit Day;
The 2024 rewrite of the TCA (which has to happen) will actually promote trade and co-operation at the expense of the UK giving up some of the more hypothetical freedoms.
2029 will be EEA in all but name.
2040ish will be the UK choosing to be in the room when decisions are taken.
A generation of withered trade and soured relationships. And all so Boomers with 3 O-Levels could get a different coloured passport and a vacuum cleaner that pumps out useless extra heat.
I suppose those with 3 O levels were to be respected previously when they voted the right way?
It's the contempt Remainers can't stop. "Anyone that disagrees with me is old and thick". They are completely unable to have a level headed conversation about it.
And in most discussions they can't even make a single concession in the argument. If you point out the predictions of the Remain campaign all turned out to be flat out lies, they will twist and turn trying to pretend otherwise. At best they will try to say the predictions were from evil Tories, rather ignoring the Labour leader of the Remain campaign repeating them everywhere.
Yes, they exude a fetid stench of sneering and snobbery, the Remainers: they cannot help themselves. The reek always escapes
It’s like Ken Livingstone trying to have a sensible conversation about Jews. Just wait a few minutes. Ah. There it is. Bingo
I remember listening to one Remainer podcast where they had on the lead singer of Elbow as a guest. He was a Remainer (they never would have any Leaver on, obviously) but from a very working class background. And working class in a way that he was still proud of and in touch with his roots, not a "I am so glad I escaped these people" type.
As he talked he framed things with such respect for Leavers (clearly knowing a lot of them), often taking a "yes they are right on this bit, but I think this other thing is more important". I remember thinking "thank God this guy wasn't in charge of StrongerIn". The main panel were all clearly very uncomfortable and skirted by any criticism of the EU very quickly, however.
Heard Johnny Vegas on something (perhaps the Last Leg?) do summat similar during the campaign. He's a very bright bloke.
Remainers predicting we will Rejoin by 2040 should, perhaps, consider how the world has changed in the last six years, since Brexit. They are trying to look forward TWELVE years
The EU will be a single state or not exist by then i'd expect. Probably the latter
For me, like many Leavers, it was the Lisbon Treaty that made me decide to leave once it was clear that no meaningful renegotiation was possible.
Amongst many things that awful treaty did, as a nakedly transparent rehash of the EU Constitution, it gave the EU legal identity so it could sign treaties in its own name, without reference to its member nations, created a president and high commissioner for foreign affairs, drove a huge extension in QMV voting, and enshrined the Charter of Fundamental Rights into EU law. This was one of the most potent drivers for me as it made rights judicable by the ECJ which led to them demanding the UK review its policy of not giving suffrage to prisoners.
This was then exacerbated by the agenda laid down by the new President Juncker who wanted to go even further and laid out a vision of EU social and fiscal union on top. A man who Cameron tried to stop and failed to stop.
No. No No No.
If Cameron had managed to achieve what he'd laid out in his Bloomberg Speech in 2013 it might have been different, but it wasn't.
I won't vote for any party that wants to take the UK back into that.
The Lisbon Treaty was a vile thing in itself. Even worse, however, was the way it was smuggled into existence
Rejected twice as the Constitution, in France and the Netherlands, it was shoved in the microwave, reheated, and served up AGAIN only this time the customer had no chance to say No. Forced through parliaments
An outrage. And of course the Brits were promised a vote by both big parties, and both big parties reneged
That was the point when my heart turned entirely against the EU, and I realised that if given a binary in/out choice, I would surely have to vote Out, even tho there was much I cherished in the EU
The arrogant stupidity of europhiles in not giving us a vote earlier than 2016 resulted, paradoxically, in their dream of Europe totally crashing around their ears
“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death. https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752
Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.
Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?
I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.
We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.
Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.
Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.
It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.
I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.
I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.
Lets get on with it.
However what we do re NI I have no idea.
I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.
Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.
Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.
Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.
Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions
Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so
Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.
Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .
Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic
And for now, he's right to do so. Noise and toxicity beat raw numbers.
I stick by my calendar proposed on Brexit Day;
The 2024 rewrite of the TCA (which has to happen) will actually promote trade and co-operation at the expense of the UK giving up some of the more hypothetical freedoms.
2029 will be EEA in all but name.
2040ish will be the UK choosing to be in the room when decisions are taken.
A generation of withered trade and soured relationships. And all so Boomers with 3 O-Levels could get a different coloured passport and a vacuum cleaner that pumps out useless extra heat.
I suppose those with 3 O levels were to be respected previously when they voted the right way?
Well I think if we had a less in-work and pensioner poverty they might not have lashed out in such a self-defeating way. If they voted to not be poorer that's all very nice but it's the passports and vacuum cleaners they'll be getting instead.
If they can afford them.
I'm sure if they gave up their avocado toast they could. Did you know you can eat for 30p a day?
Hmmm.
1 - Don't mention that France 24 is reporting airport chaos across Europe, it will destroy the propaganda. Due to (quote) "staff shortages and passenger increase due to the pandemic", citing Dublin, Schipol and Lisbon.
Remainers predicting we will Rejoin by 2040 should, perhaps, consider how the world has changed in the last six years, since Brexit. They are trying to look forward TWELVE years
The EU will be a single state or not exist by then i'd expect. Probably the latter
I expect the former.
Ratchetting goes one way normally and inertia will make Brexit an oddity.
It'll be a single state (in many ways it already is actually) but with meaningful sub-states just as the USA has still after centuries of federation.
LBC's Matthew Thompson on Twitter: Well. What was previously a joyous atmosphere turns to a chorus of boos and whistles as Boris and Carrie Johnson walk up the steps into St Paul’s Cathedral.
"They want to touch him, they love Boris".
He's finished.
Actually Sky kept playing his reception and concluded he received applause and boos much in equal number
As long as the mob are booing politicians and not the royals then all is well in England.
Robert Lacey on BBC1 earlier remarked that the Prime Minister represents what divides us, while the monarchy represents what unites us.
A reasonable description of normality in a multi party democracy with a constitutional monarchy.
Is there any precedent of booing the PM at a Royal event? I see Starmer is there, was there any booing of him?
I think that booing will be seen as quite symbolic when the downfall happens.
For me, like many Leavers, it was the Lisbon Treaty that made me decide to leave once it was clear that no meaningful renegotiation was possible.
Amongst many things that awful treaty did, as a nakedly transparent rehash of the EU Constitution, it gave the EU legal identity so it could sign treaties in its own name, without reference to its member nations, created a president and high commissioner for foreign affairs, drove a huge extension in QMV voting, and enshrined the Charter of Fundamental Rights into EU law. This was one of the most potent drivers for me as it made rights judicable by the ECJ which led to them demanding the UK review its policy of not giving suffrage to prisoners.
This was then exacerbated by the agenda laid down by the new President Juncker who wanted to go even further and laid out a vision of EU social and fiscal union on top. A man who Cameron tried to stop and failed to stop.
No. No No No.
If Cameron had managed to achieve what he'd laid out in his Bloomberg Speech in 2013 it might have been different, but it wasn't.
I won't vote for any party that wants to take the UK back into that.
The Lisbon Treaty was a vile thing in itself. Even worse, however, was the way it was smuggled into existence
Rejected twice as the Constitution, in France and the Netherlands, it was shoved in the microwave, reheated, and served up AGAIN only this time the customer had no chance to say No. Forced through parliaments
An outrage. And of course the Brits were promised a vote by both big parties, and both big parties reneged
That was the point when my heart turned entirely against the EU, and I realised that if given a binary in/out choice, I would surely have to vote Out, even tho there was much I cherished in the EU
The arrogant stupidity of europhiles in not giving us a vote earlier than 2016 resulted, paradoxically, in their dream of Europe totally crashing around their ears
It's amazing that they still struggle to understand this and instead prefer to blame it on "Boomers with 3 O-Levels".
Remainers predicting we will Rejoin by 2040 should, perhaps, consider how the world has changed in the last six years, since Brexit. They are trying to look forward TWELVE years
The EU will be a single state or not exist by then i'd expect. Probably the latter
It’s impossible to say. AI could have transformed human life by then. Probably will have done so
The EU might be no more relevant by then than ANZUS is now. Or even the Warsaw Pact/Comecon
LBC's Matthew Thompson on Twitter: Well. What was previously a joyous atmosphere turns to a chorus of boos and whistles as Boris and Carrie Johnson walk up the steps into St Paul’s Cathedral.
"They want to touch him, they love Boris".
He's finished.
Sounds like a mix of booing and cheering.
About what you'd expect from any PM, especially a controversial Tory one.
If everyone who was ever booed was "finished" then we'd never have a Tory government.
No; it's such a strange occasion to even boo anyone. Remember this will be wall to wall Royalists, ergo the elderly/Tory in particular, with a few tourists without any hound in the fight.
We need a camera on the crowd to know for sure. If there's a section of protesters who are there just to boo the PM then fine, it doesn't tell us anything. If it's 50-something new grandmothers with little union flags there to see the royals, then Boris is heading for a nasty (and well-deserved) crunch.
For me, like many Leavers, it was the Lisbon Treaty that made me decide to leave once it was clear that no meaningful renegotiation was possible.
Amongst many things that awful treaty did, as a nakedly transparent rehash of the EU Constitution, it gave the EU legal identity so it could sign treaties in its own name, without reference to its member nations, created a president and high commissioner for foreign affairs, drove a huge extension in QMV voting, and enshrined the Charter of Fundamental Rights into EU law. This was one of the most potent drivers for me as it made rights judicable by the ECJ which led to them demanding the UK review its policy of not giving suffrage to prisoners.
This was then exacerbated by the agenda laid down by the new President Juncker who wanted to go even further and laid out a vision of EU social and fiscal union on top. A man who Cameron tried to stop and failed to stop.
No. No No No.
If Cameron had managed to achieve what he'd laid out in his Bloomberg Speech in 2013 it might have been different, but it wasn't.
I won't vote for any party that wants to take the UK back into that.
The Lisbon Treaty was a vile thing in itself. Even worse, however, was the way it was smuggled into existence
Rejected twice as the Constitution, in France and the Netherlands, it was shoved in the microwave, reheated, and served up AGAIN only this time the customer had no chance to say No. Forced through parliaments
An outrage. And of course the Brits were promised a vote by both big parties, and both big parties reneged
That was the point when my heart turned entirely against the EU, and I realised that if given a binary in/out choice, I would surely have to vote Out, even tho there was much I cherished in the EU
The arrogant stupidity of europhiles in not giving us a vote earlier than 2016 resulted, paradoxically, in their dream of Europe totally crashing around their ears
It's amazing that they still struggle to understand this and instead prefer to blame it on "Boomers with 3 O-Levels".
Not only that, they are still arrogant and stupid. They’d probably contrive to lose a 2nd Brexit vote even if UK GDP halves because Brexit
Remainers predicting we will Rejoin by 2040 should, perhaps, consider how the world has changed in the last six years, since Brexit. They are trying to look forward TWELVE years
The EU will be a single state or not exist by then i'd expect. Probably the latter
I expect the former.
Ratchetting goes one way normally and inertia will make Brexit an oddity.
It'll be a single state (in many ways it already is actually) but with meaningful sub-states just as the USA has still after centuries of federation.
Time will tell, any further 'xits will likely implode it, or a financial crisis that sees the usual suspects punish the poorer nations
For me, like many Leavers, it was the Lisbon Treaty that made me decide to leave once it was clear that no meaningful renegotiation was possible.
Amongst many things that awful treaty did, as a nakedly transparent rehash of the EU Constitution, it gave the EU legal identity so it could sign treaties in its own name, without reference to its member nations, created a president and high commissioner for foreign affairs, drove a huge extension in QMV voting, and enshrined the Charter of Fundamental Rights into EU law. This was one of the most potent drivers for me as it made rights judicable by the ECJ which led to them demanding the UK review its policy of not giving suffrage to prisoners.
This was then exacerbated by the agenda laid down by the new President Juncker who wanted to go even further and laid out a vision of EU social and fiscal union on top. A man who Cameron tried to stop and failed to stop.
No. No No No.
If Cameron had managed to achieve what he'd laid out in his Bloomberg Speech in 2013 it might have been different, but it wasn't.
I won't vote for any party that wants to take the UK back into that.
The Lisbon Treaty was a vile thing in itself. Even worse, however, was the way it was smuggled into existence
Rejected twice as the Constitution, in France and the Netherlands, it was shoved in the microwave, reheated, and served up AGAIN only this time the customer had no chance to say No. Forced through parliaments
An outrage. And of course the Brits were promised a vote by both big parties, and both big parties reneged
That was the point when my heart turned entirely against the EU, and I realised that if given a binary in/out choice, I would surely have to vote Out, even tho there was much I cherished in the EU
The arrogant stupidity of europhiles in not giving us a vote earlier than 2016 resulted, paradoxically, in their dream of Europe totally crashing around their ears
It's amazing that they still struggle to understand this and instead prefer to blame it on "Boomers with 3 O-Levels".
Question - does the UK have a designated survivor for public events like the US does? Seems like an awful lot of the UK's senior people are all in one place right now.
Randy Andy isn't there...
The mini Meghans have priority over him. la reine est morte, vive la reine lilibet!
None of George, Charlotte or Louis are there - and Archie is ahead of Lilibet…..
And as for the Govt…..I don’t think Raab or Patel are there….
Yes, but all are children. Step forward great uncle Andy, your moment has come as Regent, pending George's age of majority...
Remainers predicting we will Rejoin by 2040 should, perhaps, consider how the world has changed in the last six years, since Brexit. They are trying to look forward TWELVE years
The EU will be a single state or not exist by then i'd expect. Probably the latter
I expect the former.
Ratchetting goes one way normally and inertia will make Brexit an oddity.
It'll be a single state (in many ways it already is actually) but with meaningful sub-states just as the USA has still after centuries of federation.
I don't see Italians, Spanish or French people giving up their national identity. The elites in those countries may be happy to sell their countries out but when the votes come in the people will tell them to get fucked. The last time they tried France and the Netherlands told the EU to go fuck themselves and even if there's no referenda next time the people will vote in parties that will remove them from the situation.
For me, like many Leavers, it was the Lisbon Treaty that made me decide to leave once it was clear that no meaningful renegotiation was possible.
Amongst many things that awful treaty did, as a nakedly transparent rehash of the EU Constitution, it gave the EU legal identity so it could sign treaties in its own name, without reference to its member nations, created a president and high commissioner for foreign affairs, drove a huge extension in QMV voting, and enshrined the Charter of Fundamental Rights into EU law. This was one of the most potent drivers for me as it made rights judicable by the ECJ which led to them demanding the UK review its policy of not giving suffrage to prisoners.
This was then exacerbated by the agenda laid down by the new President Juncker who wanted to go even further and laid out a vision of EU social and fiscal union on top. A man who Cameron tried to stop and failed to stop.
No. No No No.
If Cameron had managed to achieve what he'd laid out in his Bloomberg Speech in 2013 it might have been different, but it wasn't.
I won't vote for any party that wants to take the UK back into that.
The Lisbon Treaty was a vile thing in itself. Even worse, however, was the way it was smuggled into existence
Rejected twice as the Constitution, in France and the Netherlands, it was shoved in the microwave, reheated, and served up AGAIN only this time the customer had no chance to say No. Forced through parliaments
An outrage. And of course the Brits were promised a vote by both big parties, and both big parties reneged
That was the point when my heart turned entirely against the EU, and I realised that if given a binary in/out choice, I would surely have to vote Out, even tho there was much I cherished in the EU
The arrogant stupidity of europhiles in not giving us a vote earlier than 2016 resulted, paradoxically, in their dream of Europe totally crashing around their ears
It's amazing that they still struggle to understand this and instead prefer to blame it on "Boomers with 3 O-Levels".
But it absolutely was Boomers with 3 O-Levels. Sorry, as your first-order approximation that IS who voted for it. Older, and less educated, were the ones who voted Leave.
Yes yes, not all old people, we all know pensioners who voted Remain and spotty teenagers who voted Leave. But the correlations are pretty stark.
LBC's Matthew Thompson on Twitter: Well. What was previously a joyous atmosphere turns to a chorus of boos and whistles as Boris and Carrie Johnson walk up the steps into St Paul’s Cathedral.
"They want to touch him, they love Boris".
He's finished.
Actually Sky kept playing his reception and concluded he received applause and boos much in equal number
As long as the mob are booing politicians and not the royals then all is well in England.
Robert Lacey on BBC1 earlier remarked that the Prime Minister represents what divides us, while the monarchy represents what unites us.
A reasonable description of normality in a multi party democracy with a constitutional monarchy.
Is there any precedent of booing the PM at a Royal event? I see Starmer is there, was there any booing of him?
I think that booing will be seen as quite symbolic when the downfall happens.
Morning all. I think this one is pretty easy. The ideal is obviously to have standard units of measurement that everyone - young and old, right left or centrist, British or burdened by being foreign - understands and uses. That's the point of a measurement system. Clarity and consistency across people and places. So this should be the direction of travel. Going in the opposite direction, whilst not the most terrible thing in the world, is a bit silly. Which is on brand for this government. Everything they do that isn't terrible is a bit silly.
Hardly anyone in the UK uses metric measurements to describe their height.
True. I don't. But the direction of travel on measurement units should be consolidation not the other way. That's my point really.
Agree there.
I use metric when calculating BMI in my head, but then the calc in Imperial is slightly complex !
What's 5'10" squared, divided by 13 stone 12 lb.? There are limits.
My issue with Brexit now is that anyone that raises issues is told they're trying to get us to rejoin.
I have no interest in seeing us back in the EU, we've left, fine. But the current arrangement is not working
Indeed - there are some who woul dpush for that, but the pretence is that any concerns are seeking rejoin.
It's one reason people at extremes from both sides like to refight the initial vote, whether it was right or wrong and what was promised or threatened, as it is an easier fight than the question of what now?
Remainers predicting we will Rejoin by 2040 should, perhaps, consider how the world has changed in the last six years, since Brexit. They are trying to look forward TWELVE years
18 years
And as the one who mentioned 2040...
Events, sure. Though events can push the dial either way. And most events, even big ones, are more transient than we might think. You can see the Vaccine War blip in the Brexit polling (and rightly so- it was a significant mistake by Brussels, albeit one that was swifty corrected), but it was a blip.
And the tectonics- both the age profile of Yay or Nay to Brexit in the UK, the sense that it isn't going well and it's not clear where the big win comes from, and the observation that nobody on the continent is looking at the UK and saying "yes, I'll have a bit of that"- point to a couple of decades.
Remainers predicting we will Rejoin by 2040 should, perhaps, consider how the world has changed in the last six years, since Brexit. They are trying to look forward TWELVE years
The EU will be a single state or not exist by then i'd expect. Probably the latter
I expect the former.
Ratchetting goes one way normally and inertia will make Brexit an oddity.
It'll be a single state (in many ways it already is actually) but with meaningful sub-states just as the USA has still after centuries of federation.
Time will tell, any further 'xits will likely implode it, or a financial crisis that sees the usual suspects punish the poorer nations
There is a real divide between Germany and France with the Baltic countries, Poland and others that will not be easy to resolve going forward
Remainers predicting we will Rejoin by 2040 should, perhaps, consider how the world has changed in the last six years, since Brexit. They are trying to look forward TWELVE years
18 years
And as the one who mentioned 2040...
Events, sure. Though events can push the dial either way. And most events, even big ones, are more transient than we might think. You can see the Vaccine War blip in the Brexit polling (and rightly so- it was a significant mistake by Brussels, albeit one that was swifty corrected), but it was a blip.
And the tectonics- both the age profile of Yay or Nay to Brexit in the UK, the sense that it isn't going well and it's not clear where the big win comes from, and the observation that nobody on the continent is looking at the UK and saying "yes, I'll have a bit of that"- point to a couple of decades.
If that were true then the Tory party would have gone extinct decades ago.
Morning all. I think this one is pretty easy. The ideal is obviously to have standard units of measurement that everyone - young and old, right left or centrist, British or burdened by being foreign - understands and uses. That's the point of a measurement system. Clarity and consistency across people and places. So this should be the direction of travel. Going in the opposite direction, whilst not the most terrible thing in the world, is a bit silly. Which is on brand for this government. Everything they do that isn't terrible is a bit silly.
Hardly anyone in the UK uses metric measurements to describe their height.
True. I don't. But the direction of travel on measurement units should be consolidation not the other way. That's my point really.
Agree there.
I use metric when calculating BMI in my head, but then the calc in Imperial is slightly complex !
What's 5'10" squared, divided by 13 stone 12 lb.? There are limits.
I don't want to be a killjoy but if you watch the service this morning from St Paul's Cathedral where the camera moves from one royal to another and then to Johnson in the absence of the Queen there's not a lot for the the average citizen to admire
Question - does the UK have a designated survivor for public events like the US does? Seems like an awful lot of the UK's senior people are all in one place right now.
Randy Andy isn't there...
The mini Meghans have priority over him. la reine est morte, vive la reine lilibet!
None of George, Charlotte or Louis are there - and Archie is ahead of Lilibet…..
And as for the Govt…..I don’t think Raab or Patel are there….
Patel is.
Yes - don’t know how I missed her, in Pepto Bismol pink.
LBC's Matthew Thompson on Twitter: Well. What was previously a joyous atmosphere turns to a chorus of boos and whistles as Boris and Carrie Johnson walk up the steps into St Paul’s Cathedral.
"They want to touch him, they love Boris".
He's finished.
Actually Sky kept playing his reception and concluded he received applause and boos much in equal number
As long as the mob are booing politicians and not the royals then all is well in England.
Robert Lacey on BBC1 earlier remarked that the Prime Minister represents what divides us, while the monarchy represents what unites us.
A reasonable description of normality in a multi party democracy with a constitutional monarchy.
Is there any precedent of booing the PM at a Royal event? I see Starmer is there, was there any booing of him?
I think that booing will be seen as quite symbolic when the downfall happens.
Not really, people booed at George Osborne during the Olympics and the Tories went on to win pretty handily on 2015.
Remainers predicting we will Rejoin by 2040 should, perhaps, consider how the world has changed in the last six years, since Brexit. They are trying to look forward TWELVE years
The EU will be a single state or not exist by then i'd expect. Probably the latter
I expect the former.
Ratchetting goes one way normally and inertia will make Brexit an oddity.
It'll be a single state (in many ways it already is actually) but with meaningful sub-states just as the USA has still after centuries of federation.
I don't see Italians, Spanish or French people giving up their national identity. The elites in those countries may be happy to sell their countries out but when the votes come in the people will tell them to get fucked. The last time they tried France and the Netherlands told the EU to go fuck themselves and even if there's no referenda next time the people will vote in parties that will remove them from the situation.
I don't see them happily giving it up either, but it simply won't come to votes. Lisbon is the precedent here, people will tell them no, then it will just happen anyway.
Even after the public said no the Constitution, that little irritant was ignored and the elites deemed it inappropriate to ask again. Even still today you hear about people talking about Cameron's foolishness in asking the people in this country what we wanted.
For me, like many Leavers, it was the Lisbon Treaty that made me decide to leave once it was clear that no meaningful renegotiation was possible.
Amongst many things that awful treaty did, as a nakedly transparent rehash of the EU Constitution, it gave the EU legal identity so it could sign treaties in its own name, without reference to its member nations, created a president and high commissioner for foreign affairs, drove a huge extension in QMV voting, and enshrined the Charter of Fundamental Rights into EU law. This was one of the most potent drivers for me as it made rights judicable by the ECJ which led to them demanding the UK review its policy of not giving suffrage to prisoners.
This was then exacerbated by the agenda laid down by the new President Juncker who wanted to go even further and laid out a vision of EU social and fiscal union on top. A man who Cameron tried to stop and failed to stop.
No. No No No.
If Cameron had managed to achieve what he'd laid out in his Bloomberg Speech in 2013 it might have been different, but it wasn't.
I won't vote for any party that wants to take the UK back into that.
The Lisbon Treaty was a vile thing in itself. Even worse, however, was the way it was smuggled into existence
Rejected twice as the Constitution, in France and the Netherlands, it was shoved in the microwave, reheated, and served up AGAIN only this time the customer had no chance to say No. Forced through parliaments
An outrage. And of course the Brits were promised a vote by both big parties, and both big parties reneged
That was the point when my heart turned entirely against the EU, and I realised that if given a binary in/out choice, I would surely have to vote Out, even tho there was much I cherished in the EU
The arrogant stupidity of europhiles in not giving us a vote earlier than 2016 resulted, paradoxically, in their dream of Europe totally crashing around their ears
It's amazing that they still struggle to understand this and instead prefer to blame it on "Boomers with 3 O-Levels".
But it absolutely was Boomers with 3 O-Levels. Sorry, as your first-order approximation that IS who voted for it. Older, and less educated, were the ones who voted Leave.
Yes yes, not all old people, we all know pensioners who voted Remain and spotty teenagers who voted Leave. But the correlations are pretty stark.
So… people who are not doing so well in society tend to vote against the status quo? Amazing
Of course their votes should be discounted because they are stupid, and relatively uneducated…. which means no more Labour governments, ever
I regret that I need to go because I'm off to stay with friends for a couple of days, which means I won't have a chance to provoke you any further by being haughty with facts. Been a while since I've been to Dundee. Please don't play nice.
For me, like many Leavers, it was the Lisbon Treaty that made me decide to leave once it was clear that no meaningful renegotiation was possible.
Amongst many things that awful treaty did, as a nakedly transparent rehash of the EU Constitution, it gave the EU legal identity so it could sign treaties in its own name, without reference to its member nations, created a president and high commissioner for foreign affairs, drove a huge extension in QMV voting, and enshrined the Charter of Fundamental Rights into EU law. This was one of the most potent drivers for me as it made rights judicable by the ECJ which led to them demanding the UK review its policy of not giving suffrage to prisoners.
This was then exacerbated by the agenda laid down by the new President Juncker who wanted to go even further and laid out a vision of EU social and fiscal union on top. A man who Cameron tried to stop and failed to stop.
No. No No No.
If Cameron had managed to achieve what he'd laid out in his Bloomberg Speech in 2013 it might have been different, but it wasn't.
I won't vote for any party that wants to take the UK back into that.
The Lisbon Treaty was a vile thing in itself. Even worse, however, was the way it was smuggled into existence
Rejected twice as the Constitution, in France and the Netherlands, it was shoved in the microwave, reheated, and served up AGAIN only this time the customer had no chance to say No. Forced through parliaments
An outrage. And of course the Brits were promised a vote by both big parties, and both big parties reneged
That was the point when my heart turned entirely against the EU, and I realised that if given a binary in/out choice, I would surely have to vote Out, even tho there was much I cherished in the EU
The arrogant stupidity of europhiles in not giving us a vote earlier than 2016 resulted, paradoxically, in their dream of Europe totally crashing around their ears
It's amazing that they still struggle to understand this and instead prefer to blame it on "Boomers with 3 O-Levels".
But it absolutely was Boomers with 3 O-Levels. Sorry, as your first-order approximation that IS who voted for it. Older, and less educated, were the ones who voted Leave.
Yes yes, not all old people, we all know pensioners who voted Remain and spotty teenagers who voted Leave. But the correlations are pretty stark.
So… people who are not doing so well in society tend to vote against the status quo? Amazing
Of course their votes should be discounted because they are stupid, and relatively uneducated…. which means no more Labour governments, ever
Hang on. I thought Labour voters were sneering, Metropolitan public sector high-earners?
For me, like many Leavers, it was the Lisbon Treaty that made me decide to leave once it was clear that no meaningful renegotiation was possible.
Amongst many things that awful treaty did, as a nakedly transparent rehash of the EU Constitution, it gave the EU legal identity so it could sign treaties in its own name, without reference to its member nations, created a president and high commissioner for foreign affairs, drove a huge extension in QMV voting, and enshrined the Charter of Fundamental Rights into EU law. This was one of the most potent drivers for me as it made rights judicable by the ECJ which led to them demanding the UK review its policy of not giving suffrage to prisoners.
This was then exacerbated by the agenda laid down by the new President Juncker who wanted to go even further and laid out a vision of EU social and fiscal union on top. A man who Cameron tried to stop and failed to stop.
No. No No No.
If Cameron had managed to achieve what he'd laid out in his Bloomberg Speech in 2013 it might have been different, but it wasn't.
I won't vote for any party that wants to take the UK back into that.
The Lisbon Treaty was a vile thing in itself. Even worse, however, was the way it was smuggled into existence
Rejected twice as the Constitution, in France and the Netherlands, it was shoved in the microwave, reheated, and served up AGAIN only this time the customer had no chance to say No. Forced through parliaments
An outrage. And of course the Brits were promised a vote by both big parties, and both big parties reneged
That was the point when my heart turned entirely against the EU, and I realised that if given a binary in/out choice, I would surely have to vote Out, even tho there was much I cherished in the EU
The arrogant stupidity of europhiles in not giving us a vote earlier than 2016 resulted, paradoxically, in their dream of Europe totally crashing around their ears
It's amazing that they still struggle to understand this and instead prefer to blame it on "Boomers with 3 O-Levels".
But it absolutely was Boomers with 3 O-Levels. Sorry, as your first-order approximation that IS who voted for it. Older, and less educated, were the ones who voted Leave.
Yes yes, not all old people, we all know pensioners who voted Remain and spotty teenagers who voted Leave. But the correlations are pretty stark.
So… people who are not doing so well in society tend to vote against the status quo? Amazing
Of course their votes should be discounted because they are stupid, and relatively uneducated…. which means no more Labour governments, ever
As we saw in 2019, when they voted Conservative en masse.
Remainers predicting we will Rejoin by 2040 should, perhaps, consider how the world has changed in the last six years, since Brexit. They are trying to look forward TWELVE years
The EU will be a single state or not exist by then i'd expect. Probably the latter
I expect the former.
Ratchetting goes one way normally and inertia will make Brexit an oddity.
It'll be a single state (in many ways it already is actually) but with meaningful sub-states just as the USA has still after centuries of federation.
I don't see Italians, Spanish or French people giving up their national identity. The elites in those countries may be happy to sell their countries out but when the votes come in the people will tell them to get fucked. The last time they tried France and the Netherlands told the EU to go fuck themselves and even if there's no referenda next time the people will vote in parties that will remove them from the situation.
I don't see them happily giving it up either, but it simply won't come to votes. Lisbon is the precedent here, people will tell them no, then it will just happen anyway.
Even after the public said no the Constitution, that little irritant was ignored and the elites deemed it inappropriate to ask again. Even still today you hear about people talking about Cameron's foolishness in asking the people in this country what we wanted.
And then their version of Brexit happens. Some mainstream party will be forced into giving people a vote on membership of this United States of Europe and the people will invariably tell the USE to go fuck itself. It really is an extremely unpopular idea across huge swathes of Europe and it's becoming less popular over time, not more as the EU itself makes blunder after blunder.
Sees Brexteers returning to their self-pitying vomit on how Remoaners keep calling them thick racists, immediately turns to exploring the intricacies of Virginia defamation law and looking for clips of Johnny Depp on stage with Jeff Beck.
Remainers predicting we will Rejoin by 2040 should, perhaps, consider how the world has changed in the last six years, since Brexit. They are trying to look forward TWELVE years
The EU will be a single state or not exist by then i'd expect. Probably the latter
I expect the former.
Ratchetting goes one way normally and inertia will make Brexit an oddity.
It'll be a single state (in many ways it already is actually) but with meaningful sub-states just as the USA has still after centuries of federation.
Time will tell, any further 'xits will likely implode it, or a financial crisis that sees the usual suspects punish the poorer nations
There is a real divide between Germany and France with the Baltic countries, Poland and others that will not be easy to resolve going forward
It's quite Balkanised across multiple issues, and fairly close to down the middle.
Also, UVDL is getting a bit of stick for having allowed Poland access to their portion of the "recovery fund" (that is the EUs post-Covid recovery funding mechanism). EU-integration ultras want PL punished, and are trying to use it as a lever to make sure that reforms to remove the Foreign Policy Veto for individual members proceed.
Not quite what I was expecting tbh, but with Brussels it is always kremlinology.
The fallout within @EU_Commission from @vonderleyen approval of 🇵🇱 recovery plan is unprecedented - & says a lot about the culture of VdL's COM & the extent to which she has centralised decision-making
For me, like many Leavers, it was the Lisbon Treaty that made me decide to leave once it was clear that no meaningful renegotiation was possible.
Amongst many things that awful treaty did, as a nakedly transparent rehash of the EU Constitution, it gave the EU legal identity so it could sign treaties in its own name, without reference to its member nations, created a president and high commissioner for foreign affairs, drove a huge extension in QMV voting, and enshrined the Charter of Fundamental Rights into EU law. This was one of the most potent drivers for me as it made rights judicable by the ECJ which led to them demanding the UK review its policy of not giving suffrage to prisoners.
This was then exacerbated by the agenda laid down by the new President Juncker who wanted to go even further and laid out a vision of EU social and fiscal union on top. A man who Cameron tried to stop and failed to stop.
No. No No No.
If Cameron had managed to achieve what he'd laid out in his Bloomberg Speech in 2013 it might have been different, but it wasn't.
I won't vote for any party that wants to take the UK back into that.
The Lisbon Treaty was a vile thing in itself. Even worse, however, was the way it was smuggled into existence
Rejected twice as the Constitution, in France and the Netherlands, it was shoved in the microwave, reheated, and served up AGAIN only this time the customer had no chance to say No. Forced through parliaments
An outrage. And of course the Brits were promised a vote by both big parties, and both big parties reneged
That was the point when my heart turned entirely against the EU, and I realised that if given a binary in/out choice, I would surely have to vote Out, even tho there was much I cherished in the EU
The arrogant stupidity of europhiles in not giving us a vote earlier than 2016 resulted, paradoxically, in their dream of Europe totally crashing around their ears
It's amazing that they still struggle to understand this and instead prefer to blame it on "Boomers with 3 O-Levels".
But it absolutely was Boomers with 3 O-Levels. Sorry, as your first-order approximation that IS who voted for it. Older, and less educated, were the ones who voted Leave.
Yes yes, not all old people, we all know pensioners who voted Remain and spotty teenagers who voted Leave. But the correlations are pretty stark.
So… people who are not doing so well in society tend to vote against the status quo? Amazing
Of course their votes should be discounted because they are stupid, and relatively uneducated…. which means no more Labour governments, ever
No everyone who is uneducated is stupid. I'm surprised you've made the tactical error of letting ME be the one to point that out to YOU.
And the people not doing so well aren't going to be comforted by their passports and 2kW vacuums. Are they getting the meaningful change they want?
For me, like many Leavers, it was the Lisbon Treaty that made me decide to leave once it was clear that no meaningful renegotiation was possible.
Amongst many things that awful treaty did, as a nakedly transparent rehash of the EU Constitution, it gave the EU legal identity so it could sign treaties in its own name, without reference to its member nations, created a president and high commissioner for foreign affairs, drove a huge extension in QMV voting, and enshrined the Charter of Fundamental Rights into EU law. This was one of the most potent drivers for me as it made rights judicable by the ECJ which led to them demanding the UK review its policy of not giving suffrage to prisoners.
This was then exacerbated by the agenda laid down by the new President Juncker who wanted to go even further and laid out a vision of EU social and fiscal union on top. A man who Cameron tried to stop and failed to stop.
No. No No No.
If Cameron had managed to achieve what he'd laid out in his Bloomberg Speech in 2013 it might have been different, but it wasn't.
I won't vote for any party that wants to take the UK back into that.
The Lisbon Treaty was a vile thing in itself. Even worse, however, was the way it was smuggled into existence
Rejected twice as the Constitution, in France and the Netherlands, it was shoved in the microwave, reheated, and served up AGAIN only this time the customer had no chance to say No. Forced through parliaments
An outrage. And of course the Brits were promised a vote by both big parties, and both big parties reneged
That was the point when my heart turned entirely against the EU, and I realised that if given a binary in/out choice, I would surely have to vote Out, even tho there was much I cherished in the EU
The arrogant stupidity of europhiles in not giving us a vote earlier than 2016 resulted, paradoxically, in their dream of Europe totally crashing around their ears
It's amazing that they still struggle to understand this and instead prefer to blame it on "Boomers with 3 O-Levels".
But it absolutely was Boomers with 3 O-Levels. Sorry, as your first-order approximation that IS who voted for it. Older, and less educated, were the ones who voted Leave.
Yes yes, not all old people, we all know pensioners who voted Remain and spotty teenagers who voted Leave. But the correlations are pretty stark.
How do you explain me then? A millennial with 4 A-levels, and a master's degree from a Russell Group university, who works in the professional services sector in London and has a foreign wife?
All the data shows is that most people in high-income/high-education groups who are politically apathetic/unbothered about the EU vote in their own economic self-interest, rather than on principle; not that they possess superior insight and intelligence - and are therefore right.
I don't want to be a killjoy but if you watch the service this morning from St Paul's Cathedral where the camera moves from one royal to another and then to Johnson in the absence of the Queen there's not a lot for the the average citizen to admire
The queen is doing an epic troll reversing Phillip’s service - whilst Boris and co are there she’s in Downing street getting shitfaced, puking on the Lulu Lyttle wallpaper and using his toothbrush as a bog-brush.
Remainers predicting we will Rejoin by 2040 should, perhaps, consider how the world has changed in the last six years, since Brexit. They are trying to look forward TWELVE years
18 years
And as the one who mentioned 2040...
Events, sure. Though events can push the dial either way. And most events, even big ones, are more transient than we might think. You can see the Vaccine War blip in the Brexit polling (and rightly so- it was a significant mistake by Brussels, albeit one that was swifty corrected), but it was a blip.
And the tectonics- both the age profile of Yay or Nay to Brexit in the UK, the sense that it isn't going well and it's not clear where the big win comes from, and the observation that nobody on the continent is looking at the UK and saying "yes, I'll have a bit of that"- point to a couple of decades.
If that were true then the Tory party would have gone extinct decades ago.
But the Tory party of previous generations has gone extinct. The genius of the Conservatives has always been to reinvent itself, to jettison opinions when they have become burdensome. It's one of the reasons that they are a more effective political party then their opponents.
Remainers predicting we will Rejoin by 2040 should, perhaps, consider how the world has changed in the last six years, since Brexit. They are trying to look forward TWELVE years
The EU will be a single state or not exist by then i'd expect. Probably the latter
I expect the former.
Ratchetting goes one way normally and inertia will make Brexit an oddity.
It'll be a single state (in many ways it already is actually) but with meaningful sub-states just as the USA has still after centuries of federation.
I don't see Italians, Spanish or French people giving up their national identity. The elites in those countries may be happy to sell their countries out but when the votes come in the people will tell them to get fucked. The last time they tried France and the Netherlands told the EU to go fuck themselves and even if there's no referenda next time the people will vote in parties that will remove them from the situation.
I don't see them happily giving it up either, but it simply won't come to votes. Lisbon is the precedent here, people will tell them no, then it will just happen anyway.
Even after the public said no the Constitution, that little irritant was ignored and the elites deemed it inappropriate to ask again. Even still today you hear about people talking about Cameron's foolishness in asking the people in this country what we wanted.
And then their version of Brexit happens. Some mainstream party will be forced into giving people a vote on membership of this United States of Europe and the people will invariably tell the USE to go fuck itself. It really is an extremely unpopular idea across huge swathes of Europe and it's becoming less popular over time, not more as the EU itself makes blunder after blunder.
I'm sceptical of that, I think that it will remain unpopular but griping levels of unpopularity rather than revolution levels of unpopularity.
The evolution of the EU for most of Europe is like the metaphor of a slowly boiled frog, in one go people would have said no, but slowly ratchetting it people get used to it and no intermediate step seems so dramatic by itself that people revolt against it.
The UK was an exception as we were half-divorced already from Maastricht onwards, so it became a case of every step by them was even further from us and made an exit more and more plausible. But they're already increasingly boiled and used to it, any Eurozone nation exiting will be so dramatic it will make Brexit look like a stroll in the park.
For me, like many Leavers, it was the Lisbon Treaty that made me decide to leave once it was clear that no meaningful renegotiation was possible.
Amongst many things that awful treaty did, as a nakedly transparent rehash of the EU Constitution, it gave the EU legal identity so it could sign treaties in its own name, without reference to its member nations, created a president and high commissioner for foreign affairs, drove a huge extension in QMV voting, and enshrined the Charter of Fundamental Rights into EU law. This was one of the most potent drivers for me as it made rights judicable by the ECJ which led to them demanding the UK review its policy of not giving suffrage to prisoners.
This was then exacerbated by the agenda laid down by the new President Juncker who wanted to go even further and laid out a vision of EU social and fiscal union on top. A man who Cameron tried to stop and failed to stop.
No. No No No.
If Cameron had managed to achieve what he'd laid out in his Bloomberg Speech in 2013 it might have been different, but it wasn't.
I won't vote for any party that wants to take the UK back into that.
The Lisbon Treaty was a vile thing in itself. Even worse, however, was the way it was smuggled into existence
Rejected twice as the Constitution, in France and the Netherlands, it was shoved in the microwave, reheated, and served up AGAIN only this time the customer had no chance to say No. Forced through parliaments
An outrage. And of course the Brits were promised a vote by both big parties, and both big parties reneged
That was the point when my heart turned entirely against the EU, and I realised that if given a binary in/out choice, I would surely have to vote Out, even tho there was much I cherished in the EU
The arrogant stupidity of europhiles in not giving us a vote earlier than 2016 resulted, paradoxically, in their dream of Europe totally crashing around their ears
It's amazing that they still struggle to understand this and instead prefer to blame it on "Boomers with 3 O-Levels".
But it absolutely was Boomers with 3 O-Levels. Sorry, as your first-order approximation that IS who voted for it. Older, and less educated, were the ones who voted Leave.
Yes yes, not all old people, we all know pensioners who voted Remain and spotty teenagers who voted Leave. But the correlations are pretty stark.
So… people who are not doing so well in society tend to vote against the status quo? Amazing
Of course their votes should be discounted because they are stupid, and relatively uneducated…. which means no more Labour governments, ever
Hang on. I thought Labour voters were sneering, Metropolitan public sector high-earners?
Labour voters in 2022 are a very diverse and very flighty coalition. Theres little to bind them. Fast becoming true of tax and spend Tories too
For me, like many Leavers, it was the Lisbon Treaty that made me decide to leave once it was clear that no meaningful renegotiation was possible.
Amongst many things that awful treaty did, as a nakedly transparent rehash of the EU Constitution, it gave the EU legal identity so it could sign treaties in its own name, without reference to its member nations, created a president and high commissioner for foreign affairs, drove a huge extension in QMV voting, and enshrined the Charter of Fundamental Rights into EU law. This was one of the most potent drivers for me as it made rights judicable by the ECJ which led to them demanding the UK review its policy of not giving suffrage to prisoners.
This was then exacerbated by the agenda laid down by the new President Juncker who wanted to go even further and laid out a vision of EU social and fiscal union on top. A man who Cameron tried to stop and failed to stop.
No. No No No.
If Cameron had managed to achieve what he'd laid out in his Bloomberg Speech in 2013 it might have been different, but it wasn't.
I won't vote for any party that wants to take the UK back into that.
The Lisbon Treaty was a vile thing in itself. Even worse, however, was the way it was smuggled into existence
Rejected twice as the Constitution, in France and the Netherlands, it was shoved in the microwave, reheated, and served up AGAIN only this time the customer had no chance to say No. Forced through parliaments
An outrage. And of course the Brits were promised a vote by both big parties, and both big parties reneged
That was the point when my heart turned entirely against the EU, and I realised that if given a binary in/out choice, I would surely have to vote Out, even tho there was much I cherished in the EU
The arrogant stupidity of europhiles in not giving us a vote earlier than 2016 resulted, paradoxically, in their dream of Europe totally crashing around their ears
It's amazing that they still struggle to understand this and instead prefer to blame it on "Boomers with 3 O-Levels".
But it absolutely was Boomers with 3 O-Levels. Sorry, as your first-order approximation that IS who voted for it. Older, and less educated, were the ones who voted Leave.
Yes yes, not all old people, we all know pensioners who voted Remain and spotty teenagers who voted Leave. But the correlations are pretty stark.
The issue, I think, is tone and terminology. It comes across as dismissive and judgemental of people who are older and less educated. If not, why not just refer more neutrally to older and less educated?
Boomer is a pejorative term, and though I switched from leave to remain post referendum, I do think people are very quick to criticise the less educated in so dismissive a a way as if in itself their being less educated means their concerns and wishes are less valid, even if such a view is never raised if they vote a different way. We saw some of that in 2019 with Tories winning among the poorer and less educated, and this suddenly being presented as an issue, when it surely won't be seen as such if the trend reverses.
I'm sorry if that seems tedious, but I was in favour of a second referendum in order to change course to remain, and I just don't see why it is necessary to denigrate anybody for their vote, or change of mind, and yet even if not everyone intends that the tone leads it that way. Getting huffy about others getting huffy about it, is no high ground position either.
For me, like many Leavers, it was the Lisbon Treaty that made me decide to leave once it was clear that no meaningful renegotiation was possible.
Amongst many things that awful treaty did, as a nakedly transparent rehash of the EU Constitution, it gave the EU legal identity so it could sign treaties in its own name, without reference to its member nations, created a president and high commissioner for foreign affairs, drove a huge extension in QMV voting, and enshrined the Charter of Fundamental Rights into EU law. This was one of the most potent drivers for me as it made rights judicable by the ECJ which led to them demanding the UK review its policy of not giving suffrage to prisoners.
This was then exacerbated by the agenda laid down by the new President Juncker who wanted to go even further and laid out a vision of EU social and fiscal union on top. A man who Cameron tried to stop and failed to stop.
No. No No No.
If Cameron had managed to achieve what he'd laid out in his Bloomberg Speech in 2013 it might have been different, but it wasn't.
I won't vote for any party that wants to take the UK back into that.
The Lisbon Treaty was a vile thing in itself. Even worse, however, was the way it was smuggled into existence
Rejected twice as the Constitution, in France and the Netherlands, it was shoved in the microwave, reheated, and served up AGAIN only this time the customer had no chance to say No. Forced through parliaments
An outrage. And of course the Brits were promised a vote by both big parties, and both big parties reneged
That was the point when my heart turned entirely against the EU, and I realised that if given a binary in/out choice, I would surely have to vote Out, even tho there was much I cherished in the EU
The arrogant stupidity of europhiles in not giving us a vote earlier than 2016 resulted, paradoxically, in their dream of Europe totally crashing around their ears
It's amazing that they still struggle to understand this and instead prefer to blame it on "Boomers with 3 O-Levels".
Not only that, they are still arrogant and stupid. They’d probably contrive to lose a 2nd Brexit vote even if UK GDP halves because Brexit
I detest Boris Johnson and his behaviour in office and want him gone.
However, if I even detect one iota of this in Starmer's manifesto, or the rhetoric of his shadow cabinet, then I will wade through blood for him in 2024.
Remainers predicting we will Rejoin by 2040 should, perhaps, consider how the world has changed in the last six years, since Brexit. They are trying to look forward TWELVE years
The EU will be a single state or not exist by then i'd expect. Probably the latter
I expect the former.
Ratchetting goes one way normally and inertia will make Brexit an oddity.
It'll be a single state (in many ways it already is actually) but with meaningful sub-states just as the USA has still after centuries of federation.
I don't see Italians, Spanish or French people giving up their national identity. The elites in those countries may be happy to sell their countries out but when the votes come in the people will tell them to get fucked. The last time they tried France and the Netherlands told the EU to go fuck themselves and even if there's no referenda next time the people will vote in parties that will remove them from the situation.
I don't see them happily giving it up either, but it simply won't come to votes. Lisbon is the precedent here, people will tell them no, then it will just happen anyway.
Even after the public said no the Constitution, that little irritant was ignored and the elites deemed it inappropriate to ask again. Even still today you hear about people talking about Cameron's foolishness in asking the people in this country what we wanted.
And then their version of Brexit happens. Some mainstream party will be forced into giving people a vote on membership of this United States of Europe and the people will invariably tell the USE to go fuck itself. It really is an extremely unpopular idea across huge swathes of Europe and it's becoming less popular over time, not more as the EU itself makes blunder after blunder.
I'm sceptical of that, I think that it will remain unpopular but griping levels of unpopularity rather than revolution levels of unpopularity.
The evolution of the EU for most of Europe is like the metaphor of a slowly boiled frog, in one go people would have said no, but slowly ratchetting it people get used to it and no intermediate step seems so dramatic by itself that people revolt against it.
The UK was an exception as we were half-divorced already from Maastricht onwards, so it became a case of every step by them was even further from us and made an exit more and more plausible. But they're already increasingly boiled and used to it, any Eurozone nation exiting will be so dramatic it will make Brexit look like a stroll in the park.
The Euro was the one very big change, although the effects of it were long-term rather than short-term. It’s pretty much impossible to exit the Euro at a point of weakness, any country doing so would see their currency significantly devalued in the short term.
“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death. https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752
Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.
Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?
I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.
We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.
Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.
Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.
It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.
I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.
I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.
Lets get on with it.
However what we do re NI I have no idea.
I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.
Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.
Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.
Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.
Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions
Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so
Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.
Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .
Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic
And for now, he's right to do so. Noise and toxicity beat raw numbers.
I stick by my calendar proposed on Brexit Day;
The 2024 rewrite of the TCA (which has to happen) will actually promote trade and co-operation at the expense of the UK giving up some of the more hypothetical freedoms.
2029 will be EEA in all but name.
2040ish will be the UK choosing to be in the room when decisions are taken.
A generation of withered trade and soured relationships. And all so Boomers with 3 O-Levels could get a different coloured passport and a vacuum cleaner that pumps out useless extra heat.
I suppose those with 3 O levels were to be respected previously when they voted the right way?
Well I think if we had a less in-work and pensioner poverty they might not have lashed out in such a self-defeating way. If they voted to not be poorer that's all very nice but it's the passports and vacuum cleaners they'll be getting instead.
If they can afford them.
I'm sure if they gave up their avocado toast they could. Did you know you can eat for 30p a day?
Hmmm.
1 - Don't mention that France 24 is reporting airport chaos across Europe, it will destroy the propaganda. Due to (quote) "staff shortages and passenger increase due to the pandemic", citing Dublin, Schipol and Lisbon.
3 - Who claimed that you could eat for 30p a day? My MP Lee Anderson certainly did not.
Airlines and airports are the same everywhere at the moment. It’s a worldwide problem, they all laid off too many staff - many with specific skills, qualifications and clearances - during the pandemic, and now can’t get enough to come back as normality returns.
I think that in the years of plenty, airports were one of the areas where the jobs were hollowed out. That is, the rates of pay went from really very good to minimum wage. At the same time the conditions got worse.
Worldwide, COVID did a Great Reset (ha!) on the shit jobs
- If you are older, retire on the state pension, plus whatever personal stuff you have. Perhaps supplement with some part time work. And end up on more money.
- If you are younger, try a different job.
When *Amazon drivers* tell you that the job they have now is far better than the shit they were doing previously...
For me, like many Leavers, it was the Lisbon Treaty that made me decide to leave once it was clear that no meaningful renegotiation was possible.
Amongst many things that awful treaty did, as a nakedly transparent rehash of the EU Constitution, it gave the EU legal identity so it could sign treaties in its own name, without reference to its member nations, created a president and high commissioner for foreign affairs, drove a huge extension in QMV voting, and enshrined the Charter of Fundamental Rights into EU law. This was one of the most potent drivers for me as it made rights judicable by the ECJ which led to them demanding the UK review its policy of not giving suffrage to prisoners.
This was then exacerbated by the agenda laid down by the new President Juncker who wanted to go even further and laid out a vision of EU social and fiscal union on top. A man who Cameron tried to stop and failed to stop.
No. No No No.
If Cameron had managed to achieve what he'd laid out in his Bloomberg Speech in 2013 it might have been different, but it wasn't.
I won't vote for any party that wants to take the UK back into that.
The Lisbon Treaty was a vile thing in itself. Even worse, however, was the way it was smuggled into existence
Rejected twice as the Constitution, in France and the Netherlands, it was shoved in the microwave, reheated, and served up AGAIN only this time the customer had no chance to say No. Forced through parliaments
An outrage. And of course the Brits were promised a vote by both big parties, and both big parties reneged
That was the point when my heart turned entirely against the EU, and I realised that if given a binary in/out choice, I would surely have to vote Out, even tho there was much I cherished in the EU
The arrogant stupidity of europhiles in not giving us a vote earlier than 2016 resulted, paradoxically, in their dream of Europe totally crashing around their ears
It's amazing that they still struggle to understand this and instead prefer to blame it on "Boomers with 3 O-Levels".
But it absolutely was Boomers with 3 O-Levels. Sorry, as your first-order approximation that IS who voted for it. Older, and less educated, were the ones who voted Leave.
Yes yes, not all old people, we all know pensioners who voted Remain and spotty teenagers who voted Leave. But the correlations are pretty stark.
So… people who are not doing so well in society tend to vote against the status quo? Amazing
Of course their votes should be discounted because they are stupid, and relatively uneducated…. which means no more Labour governments, ever
Hang on. I thought Labour voters were sneering, Metropolitan public sector high-earners?
Labour voters in 2022 are a very diverse and very flighty coalition. Theres little to bind them. Fast becoming true of tax and spend Tories too
I think that may be true. Though opposition to the government (and particularly this PM) is quite a strong force at the moment. Particularly when you don't really have to do anything much.
For me, like many Leavers, it was the Lisbon Treaty that made me decide to leave once it was clear that no meaningful renegotiation was possible.
Amongst many things that awful treaty did, as a nakedly transparent rehash of the EU Constitution, it gave the EU legal identity so it could sign treaties in its own name, without reference to its member nations, created a president and high commissioner for foreign affairs, drove a huge extension in QMV voting, and enshrined the Charter of Fundamental Rights into EU law. This was one of the most potent drivers for me as it made rights judicable by the ECJ which led to them demanding the UK review its policy of not giving suffrage to prisoners.
This was then exacerbated by the agenda laid down by the new President Juncker who wanted to go even further and laid out a vision of EU social and fiscal union on top. A man who Cameron tried to stop and failed to stop.
No. No No No.
If Cameron had managed to achieve what he'd laid out in his Bloomberg Speech in 2013 it might have been different, but it wasn't.
I won't vote for any party that wants to take the UK back into that.
The Lisbon Treaty was a vile thing in itself. Even worse, however, was the way it was smuggled into existence
Rejected twice as the Constitution, in France and the Netherlands, it was shoved in the microwave, reheated, and served up AGAIN only this time the customer had no chance to say No. Forced through parliaments
An outrage. And of course the Brits were promised a vote by both big parties, and both big parties reneged
That was the point when my heart turned entirely against the EU, and I realised that if given a binary in/out choice, I would surely have to vote Out, even tho there was much I cherished in the EU
The arrogant stupidity of europhiles in not giving us a vote earlier than 2016 resulted, paradoxically, in their dream of Europe totally crashing around their ears
It's amazing that they still struggle to understand this and instead prefer to blame it on "Boomers with 3 O-Levels".
But it absolutely was Boomers with 3 O-Levels. Sorry, as your first-order approximation that IS who voted for it. Older, and less educated, were the ones who voted Leave.
Yes yes, not all old people, we all know pensioners who voted Remain and spotty teenagers who voted Leave. But the correlations are pretty stark.
How do you explain me then? A millennial with 4 A-levels, and a master's degree from a Russell Group university, who works in the professional services sector in London and has a foreign wife?
All the data shows is that most people in high-income/high-education groups who are politically apathetic/unbothered about the EU vote in their own economic self-interest, rather than on principle; not that they possess superior insight and intelligence - and are therefore right.
You’re on the right and relatively well off. I would imagine you voted for the Singapore-on-Thames, I don’t like those bloody EU socialists dictating to us Brexit, not back to the 50s and 60s when everything was better Brexit I think many Red Wall voters wanted - the unspoken corollary of that being when there were no non-whites.
You’re probably socially liberal and economically dry. The opposite of millions of Brexit voters and what they expect Brexit to bring.
Hence it is perceived to be failing. Because no-one is getting what they want.
For me, like many Leavers, it was the Lisbon Treaty that made me decide to leave once it was clear that no meaningful renegotiation was possible.
Amongst many things that awful treaty did, as a nakedly transparent rehash of the EU Constitution, it gave the EU legal identity so it could sign treaties in its own name, without reference to its member nations, created a president and high commissioner for foreign affairs, drove a huge extension in QMV voting, and enshrined the Charter of Fundamental Rights into EU law. This was one of the most potent drivers for me as it made rights judicable by the ECJ which led to them demanding the UK review its policy of not giving suffrage to prisoners.
This was then exacerbated by the agenda laid down by the new President Juncker who wanted to go even further and laid out a vision of EU social and fiscal union on top. A man who Cameron tried to stop and failed to stop.
No. No No No.
If Cameron had managed to achieve what he'd laid out in his Bloomberg Speech in 2013 it might have been different, but it wasn't.
I won't vote for any party that wants to take the UK back into that.
The Lisbon Treaty was a vile thing in itself. Even worse, however, was the way it was smuggled into existence
Rejected twice as the Constitution, in France and the Netherlands, it was shoved in the microwave, reheated, and served up AGAIN only this time the customer had no chance to say No. Forced through parliaments
An outrage. And of course the Brits were promised a vote by both big parties, and both big parties reneged
That was the point when my heart turned entirely against the EU, and I realised that if given a binary in/out choice, I would surely have to vote Out, even tho there was much I cherished in the EU
The arrogant stupidity of europhiles in not giving us a vote earlier than 2016 resulted, paradoxically, in their dream of Europe totally crashing around their ears
It's amazing that they still struggle to understand this and instead prefer to blame it on "Boomers with 3 O-Levels".
But it absolutely was Boomers with 3 O-Levels. Sorry, as your first-order approximation that IS who voted for it. Older, and less educated, were the ones who voted Leave.
Yes yes, not all old people, we all know pensioners who voted Remain and spotty teenagers who voted Leave. But the correlations are pretty stark.
So… people who are not doing so well in society tend to vote against the status quo? Amazing
Of course their votes should be discounted because they are stupid, and relatively uneducated…. which means no more Labour governments, ever
Except the Status Quo is now Tory Brexit, so how will those not doing so well vote now? Levelling up has gone backwards in the Q3 regional GDP figures, with London growing strongly, NE in decline.
I don't want to be a killjoy but if you watch the service this morning from St Paul's Cathedral where the camera moves from one royal to another and then to Johnson in the absence of the Queen there's not a lot for the the average citizen to admire
The queen is doing an epic troll reversing Phillip’s service - whilst Boris and co are there she’s in Downing street getting shitfaced, puking on the Lulu Lyttle wallpaper and using his toothbrush as a bog-brush.
Whoever chose the reading for Johnson knew how to take the piss. QE2 does have a reputation for humour.
Remainers predicting we will Rejoin by 2040 should, perhaps, consider how the world has changed in the last six years, since Brexit. They are trying to look forward TWELVE years
The EU will be a single state or not exist by then i'd expect. Probably the latter
I expect the former.
Ratchetting goes one way normally and inertia will make Brexit an oddity.
It'll be a single state (in many ways it already is actually) but with meaningful sub-states just as the USA has still after centuries of federation.
I don't see Italians, Spanish or French people giving up their national identity. The elites in those countries may be happy to sell their countries out but when the votes come in the people will tell them to get fucked. The last time they tried France and the Netherlands told the EU to go fuck themselves and even if there's no referenda next time the people will vote in parties that will remove them from the situation.
I don't see them happily giving it up either, but it simply won't come to votes. Lisbon is the precedent here, people will tell them no, then it will just happen anyway.
Even after the public said no the Constitution, that little irritant was ignored and the elites deemed it inappropriate to ask again. Even still today you hear about people talking about Cameron's foolishness in asking the people in this country what we wanted.
And then their version of Brexit happens. Some mainstream party will be forced into giving people a vote on membership of this United States of Europe and the people will invariably tell the USE to go fuck itself. It really is an extremely unpopular idea across huge swathes of Europe and it's becoming less popular over time, not more as the EU itself makes blunder after blunder.
I'm sceptical of that, I think that it will remain unpopular but griping levels of unpopularity rather than revolution levels of unpopularity.
The evolution of the EU for most of Europe is like the metaphor of a slowly boiled frog, in one go people would have said no, but slowly ratchetting it people get used to it and no intermediate step seems so dramatic by itself that people revolt against it.
The UK was an exception as we were half-divorced already from Maastricht onwards, so it became a case of every step by them was even further from us and made an exit more and more plausible. But they're already increasingly boiled and used to it, any Eurozone nation exiting will be so dramatic it will make Brexit look like a stroll in the park.
The Euro was the one very big change, although the effects of it were long-term rather than short-term. It’s pretty much impossible to exit the Euro at a point of weakness, any country doing so would see their currency significantly devalued in the short term.
There's a balance between desire for countries to be independent, and countervailing pressures.
We already know what the claims were that we had to negotiate on paying back. Since we exited a common financing mechanism has been introduced for one, so if eg It or Gr wanted to leave they would have to deal individually with their part of the EU-backed debt (ie underwritten by Germany, Denmark etc). I can see Brussels demanding that it all be paid back in cash-on-the-nail immediately.
Part of the integration strategy is to make it impractical and difficult to leave.
Remainers predicting we will Rejoin by 2040 should, perhaps, consider how the world has changed in the last six years, since Brexit. They are trying to look forward TWELVE years
The EU will be a single state or not exist by then i'd expect. Probably the latter
I expect the former.
Ratchetting goes one way normally and inertia will make Brexit an oddity.
It'll be a single state (in many ways it already is actually) but with meaningful sub-states just as the USA has still after centuries of federation.
I don't see Italians, Spanish or French people giving up their national identity. The elites in those countries may be happy to sell their countries out but when the votes come in the people will tell them to get fucked. The last time they tried France and the Netherlands told the EU to go fuck themselves and even if there's no referenda next time the people will vote in parties that will remove them from the situation.
I don't see them happily giving it up either, but it simply won't come to votes. Lisbon is the precedent here, people will tell them no, then it will just happen anyway.
Even after the public said no the Constitution, that little irritant was ignored and the elites deemed it inappropriate to ask again. Even still today you hear about people talking about Cameron's foolishness in asking the people in this country what we wanted.
And then their version of Brexit happens. Some mainstream party will be forced into giving people a vote on membership of this United States of Europe and the people will invariably tell the USE to go fuck itself. It really is an extremely unpopular idea across huge swathes of Europe and it's becoming less popular over time, not more as the EU itself makes blunder after blunder.
I'm sceptical of that, I think that it will remain unpopular but griping levels of unpopularity rather than revolution levels of unpopularity.
The evolution of the EU for most of Europe is like the metaphor of a slowly boiled frog, in one go people would have said no, but slowly ratchetting it people get used to it and no intermediate step seems so dramatic by itself that people revolt against it.
The UK was an exception as we were half-divorced already from Maastricht onwards, so it became a case of every step by them was even further from us and made an exit more and more plausible. But they're already increasingly boiled and used to it, any Eurozone nation exiting will be so dramatic it will make Brexit look like a stroll in the park.
The Euro was the one very big change, although the effects of it were long-term rather than short-term. It’s pretty much impossible to exit the Euro at a point of weakness, any country doing so would see their currency significantly devalued in the short term.
Precisely. The one country that could easily exit the Euro is Germany, but they never would as they have just what they want with it.
Greece showed that beggars can't be choosers.
Typically he who pays the piper calls the tune and Germany fulfills that role there, the UK was in a very unusual situation in that we were massive payers towards Europe but we weren't calling the tune. That's a situation that was fairly unique to Britain, most other nations that are significant contributors either get what they need from Europe (like France and Germany) or are very small nations who are better off without borders (like the Netherlands).
Any more *-xits would need to be semi-divorced, net contributing nations that aren't in the Eurozone. Just about the only nation that leaves that's plausible is Sweden.
Remainers predicting we will Rejoin by 2040 should, perhaps, consider how the world has changed in the last six years, since Brexit. They are trying to look forward TWELVE years
18 years
And as the one who mentioned 2040...
Events, sure. Though events can push the dial either way. And most events, even big ones, are more transient than we might think. You can see the Vaccine War blip in the Brexit polling (and rightly so- it was a significant mistake by Brussels, albeit one that was swifty corrected), but it was a blip.
And the tectonics- both the age profile of Yay or Nay to Brexit in the UK, the sense that it isn't going well and it's not clear where the big win comes from, and the observation that nobody on the continent is looking at the UK and saying "yes, I'll have a bit of that"- point to a couple of decades.
But it is 18 years
Try and pick an 18 year period since, say, 1900, in which the world has not been transformed
1900-1918. The Great War, the Russian Revolution, the Spanish flu, the end of the Austrian and Ottoman empires, and much more
1918-1936? The Great Depression, the Russian Civil War, the rise of Hitler, Mussolini, Irish indy, the Spanish civil war
1936-1954 I shan’t bother
1954-1974 Space is explored. Man on the moon. Indian independence. End of empires. The sexual revolution. The pill. Nuclear stand off. The EEC is founded, Vietnam
1974-1992 Vietnam War ends. Watergate. Britain collapses. Thatcher, Reagan. Berlin Wall falls. The end of communism. EEC evolves towards EU. The internet begins
1992-2010 History speeds up again. Germany reunited. Collapse of USSR. War across Asia. American hegemony then the end of the American century. China rises. Incredible globalisation. Internet goes mad. 9/11. Terrorism. Smartphones. Iraq.
2010-now transformation of global economy. China becomes biggest trader. Africa turns to Beijing. EU expands. Scottish indy no. Brexit! Mass migration. Climate change. Social media changes humanity. Trump. Global plague. Ukraine
Ergo, predicting there will be a recognisable UK to join a recognisable EU in 18 years time is a fool’s errand. 18 years is an epoch and so much will happen to render this prediction quite fatuous
Remainers predicting we will Rejoin by 2040 should, perhaps, consider how the world has changed in the last six years, since Brexit. They are trying to look forward TWELVE years
18 years
And as the one who mentioned 2040...
Events, sure. Though events can push the dial either way. And most events, even big ones, are more transient than we might think. You can see the Vaccine War blip in the Brexit polling (and rightly so- it was a significant mistake by Brussels, albeit one that was swifty corrected), but it was a blip.
And the tectonics- both the age profile of Yay or Nay to Brexit in the UK, the sense that it isn't going well and it's not clear where the big win comes from, and the observation that nobody on the continent is looking at the UK and saying "yes, I'll have a bit of that"- point to a couple of decades.
But it is 18 years
Try and pick an 18 year period since, say, 1900, in which the world has not been transformed
1900-1918. The Great War, the Russian Revolution, the Spanish flu, the end of the Austrian and Ottoman empires, and much more
1918-1936? The Great Depression, the Russian Civil War, the rise of Hitler, Mussolini, Irish indy, the Spanish civil war
1936-1954 I shan’t bother
1954-1974 Space is explored. Man on the moon. Indian independence. End of empires. The sexual revolution. The pill. Nuclear stand off. The EEC is founded, Vietnam
1974-1992 Vietnam War ends. Watergate. Britain collapses. Thatcher, Reagan. Berlin Wall falls. The end of communism. EEC evolves towards EU. The internet begins
1992-2010 History speeds up again. Germany reunited. Collapse of USSR. War across Asia. American hegemony then the end of the American century. China rises. Incredible globalisation. Internet goes mad. 9/11. Terrorism. Smartphones. Iraq.
2010-now transformation of global economy. China becomes biggest trader. Africa turns to Beijing. EU expands. Scottish indy no. Brexit! Mass migration. Climate change. Social media changes humanity. Trump. Global plague. Ukraine
Ergo, predicting there will be a recognisable UK to join a recognisable EU in 18 years time is a fool’s errand. 18 years is an epoch and so much will happen to render this prediction quite fatuous
For me, like many Leavers, it was the Lisbon Treaty that made me decide to leave once it was clear that no meaningful renegotiation was possible.
Amongst many things that awful treaty did, as a nakedly transparent rehash of the EU Constitution, it gave the EU legal identity so it could sign treaties in its own name, without reference to its member nations, created a president and high commissioner for foreign affairs, drove a huge extension in QMV voting, and enshrined the Charter of Fundamental Rights into EU law. This was one of the most potent drivers for me as it made rights judicable by the ECJ which led to them demanding the UK review its policy of not giving suffrage to prisoners.
This was then exacerbated by the agenda laid down by the new President Juncker who wanted to go even further and laid out a vision of EU social and fiscal union on top. A man who Cameron tried to stop and failed to stop.
No. No No No.
If Cameron had managed to achieve what he'd laid out in his Bloomberg Speech in 2013 it might have been different, but it wasn't.
I won't vote for any party that wants to take the UK back into that.
The Lisbon Treaty was a vile thing in itself. Even worse, however, was the way it was smuggled into existence
Rejected twice as the Constitution, in France and the Netherlands, it was shoved in the microwave, reheated, and served up AGAIN only this time the customer had no chance to say No. Forced through parliaments
An outrage. And of course the Brits were promised a vote by both big parties, and both big parties reneged
That was the point when my heart turned entirely against the EU, and I realised that if given a binary in/out choice, I would surely have to vote Out, even tho there was much I cherished in the EU
The arrogant stupidity of europhiles in not giving us a vote earlier than 2016 resulted, paradoxically, in their dream of Europe totally crashing around their ears
It's amazing that they still struggle to understand this and instead prefer to blame it on "Boomers with 3 O-Levels".
But it absolutely was Boomers with 3 O-Levels. Sorry, as your first-order approximation that IS who voted for it. Older, and less educated, were the ones who voted Leave.
Yes yes, not all old people, we all know pensioners who voted Remain and spotty teenagers who voted Leave. But the correlations are pretty stark.
The issue, I think, is tone and terminology. It comes across as dismissive and judgemental of people who are older and less educated. If not, why not just refer more neutrally to older and less educated?
Boomer is a pejorative term, and though I switched from leave to remain post referendum, I do think people are very quick to criticise the less educated in so dismissive a a way as if in itself their being less educated means their concerns and wishes are less valid, even if such a view is never raised if they vote a different way. We saw some of that in 2019 with Tories winning among the poorer and less educated, and this suddenly being presented as an issue, when it surely won't be seen as such if the trend reverses.
I'm sorry if that seems tedious, but I was in favour of a second referendum in order to change course to remain, and I just don't see why it is necessary to denigrate anybody for their vote, or change of mind, and yet even if not everyone intends that the tone leads it that way. Getting huffy about others getting huffy about it, is no high ground position either.
The reality is that much of the Remainer electorate thinks of anyone without a degree as plebs that can't be trusted. It is an inherent undemocratic mindset, which is a strong reason why so many support the EU in the first place. Isn't it so much better to be ruled by sophisticated continental elites who can overrule the troglodyte British electorate? Haven't you even been to Stoke or Nottingham? Those people are ghastly!
The Brexit vote was determined in 2004, courtesy of Tony. I remember the Government being given license to slow down the open doors policy - a sop to those less keen on uncontrolled immigarion. I return to Boston regularly to see family and I was surprised by the reaction as time went on. We'd had some Portuguese migrants initially, to only minor comment, but the numbers suddenly swelled when Eastern Europe was opened up.
I was surprised; they were white, Catholic (as I am), and worked hard. OK, they increased the drink-driving figures, used knives - but mainly between themselves, and at that time, many of them spoke Russian as a second language, which caused problems for the local teachers. But it was the sheer numbers, encouraged by Blair et al who claimed very few would come, alongside a silly wish to 'rub the right's nose in it'.
Ths caused a massive trust problem. But Tony was on a roll. I have faith in Bostonians, I'm sure with more sure-footedness political instincts, the problem would have eased. But power and absolute power do strange things.
The farmers gained, the local RC Church boomed, but the feeling grew that no one was listening. Having only 76% vote Leave was a triumph in the circumstances. Tin-eared politicians are always with us, and BoJo is no exception. But the die was cast then, and there's no going back. It was never an economc argument in the first place. The Remain storm troppers tried to make it one, but soon reverted to accusations of their opponents being racists and ignorant scum. The result was inevitable. As you sow.
For me, like many Leavers, it was the Lisbon Treaty that made me decide to leave once it was clear that no meaningful renegotiation was possible.
Amongst many things that awful treaty did, as a nakedly transparent rehash of the EU Constitution, it gave the EU legal identity so it could sign treaties in its own name, without reference to its member nations, created a president and high commissioner for foreign affairs, drove a huge extension in QMV voting, and enshrined the Charter of Fundamental Rights into EU law. This was one of the most potent drivers for me as it made rights judicable by the ECJ which led to them demanding the UK review its policy of not giving suffrage to prisoners.
This was then exacerbated by the agenda laid down by the new President Juncker who wanted to go even further and laid out a vision of EU social and fiscal union on top. A man who Cameron tried to stop and failed to stop.
No. No No No.
If Cameron had managed to achieve what he'd laid out in his Bloomberg Speech in 2013 it might have been different, but it wasn't.
I won't vote for any party that wants to take the UK back into that.
The Lisbon Treaty was a vile thing in itself. Even worse, however, was the way it was smuggled into existence
Rejected twice as the Constitution, in France and the Netherlands, it was shoved in the microwave, reheated, and served up AGAIN only this time the customer had no chance to say No. Forced through parliaments
An outrage. And of course the Brits were promised a vote by both big parties, and both big parties reneged
That was the point when my heart turned entirely against the EU, and I realised that if given a binary in/out choice, I would surely have to vote Out, even tho there was much I cherished in the EU
The arrogant stupidity of europhiles in not giving us a vote earlier than 2016 resulted, paradoxically, in their dream of Europe totally crashing around their ears
It's amazing that they still struggle to understand this and instead prefer to blame it on "Boomers with 3 O-Levels".
But it absolutely was Boomers with 3 O-Levels. Sorry, as your first-order approximation that IS who voted for it. Older, and less educated, were the ones who voted Leave.
Yes yes, not all old people, we all know pensioners who voted Remain and spotty teenagers who voted Leave. But the correlations are pretty stark.
The issue, I think, is tone and terminology. It comes across as dismissive and judgemental of people who are older and less educated. If not, why not just refer more neutrally to older and less educated?
Boomer is a pejorative term, and though I switched from leave to remain post referendum, I do think people are very quick to criticise the less educated in so dismissive a a way as if in itself their being less educated means their concerns and wishes are less valid, even if such a view is never raised if they vote a different way. We saw some of that in 2019 with Tories winning among the poorer and less educated, and this suddenly being presented as an issue, when it surely won't be seen as such if the trend reverses.
I'm sorry if that seems tedious, but I was in favour of a second referendum in order to change course to remain, and I just don't see why it is necessary to denigrate anybody for their vote, or change of mind, and yet even if not everyone intends that the tone leads it that way. Getting huffy about others getting huffy about it, is no high ground position either.
The reality is that much of the Remainer electorate thinks of anyone without a degree as plebs that can't be trusted. It is an inherent undemocratic mindset, which is a strong reason why so many support the EU in the first place. Isn't it so much better to be ruled by sophisticated continental elites who can overrule the troglodyte British electorate? Haven't you even been to Stoke or Nottingham? Those people are ghastly!
Lol, yes. Also one of my periods is 20 years rather than 18.
Still, the point is good
If a week is a long time in politics then 18 years is an absolute fucking aeon in modern geopolitics, technological advance, and human culture, and in none of those 18 year periods could anyone at the start have correctly predicted what the world would look like at the end
Tesla CEO Elon Musk has a "super bad feeling" about the economy and needs to cut about 10% of jobs at the electric carmaker, he said in an email to executives seen by Reuters.
The message, sent on Thursday and titled "pause all hiring worldwide", came two days after the billionaire told staff to return to the workplace or leave, and adds to a growing chorus of warnings from business leaders about the risks of recession.
Indeed, when you look at human history that way - as chunks of 18 years - a generation, when a baby becomes an adult - then the speed of change since 1900 is astounding
A person who lives to the age of 75 can expect to see revolutionary transformations four times or more in that lifespan
Morning all. I think this one is pretty easy. The ideal is obviously to have standard units of measurement that everyone - young and old, right left or centrist, British or burdened by being foreign - understands and uses. That's the point of a measurement system. Clarity and consistency across people and places. So this should be the direction of travel. Going in the opposite direction, whilst not the most terrible thing in the world, is a bit silly. Which is on brand for this government. Everything they do that isn't terrible is a bit silly.
Hardly anyone in the UK uses metric measurements to describe their height.
Height really is the exteme in the measurement discussion though. In Australia they introduced the metric system for everything well over fifty years ago. When I lived there 20 years ago, most people still quoted their height in feet and inches even though all other linear measurements were in m/km/cm/mm and not many know how far 10 miles is. Weight is always given in Kg even in informal conversation.
I'm sure the reason for this is that people numeric height's are quoted and discussed in informal conversation very often (much more often than weight is) and so the old units remain in common usage for a long time.
Tesla CEO Elon Musk has a "super bad feeling" about the economy and needs to cut about 10% of jobs at the electric carmaker, he said in an email to executives seen by Reuters.
The message, sent on Thursday and titled "pause all hiring worldwide", came two days after the billionaire told staff to return to the workplace or leave, and adds to a growing chorus of warnings from business leaders about the risks of recession.
VW ID.4 and Chevy Bolt are starting to eat into the Model Y cash cow sales. The clear run in the BEV market is over for Tesla.
For me, like many Leavers, it was the Lisbon Treaty that made me decide to leave once it was clear that no meaningful renegotiation was possible.
Amongst many things that awful treaty did, as a nakedly transparent rehash of the EU Constitution, it gave the EU legal identity so it could sign treaties in its own name, without reference to its member nations, created a president and high commissioner for foreign affairs, drove a huge extension in QMV voting, and enshrined the Charter of Fundamental Rights into EU law. This was one of the most potent drivers for me as it made rights judicable by the ECJ which led to them demanding the UK review its policy of not giving suffrage to prisoners.
This was then exacerbated by the agenda laid down by the new President Juncker who wanted to go even further and laid out a vision of EU social and fiscal union on top. A man who Cameron tried to stop and failed to stop.
No. No No No.
If Cameron had managed to achieve what he'd laid out in his Bloomberg Speech in 2013 it might have been different, but it wasn't.
I won't vote for any party that wants to take the UK back into that.
The Lisbon Treaty was a vile thing in itself. Even worse, however, was the way it was smuggled into existence
Rejected twice as the Constitution, in France and the Netherlands, it was shoved in the microwave, reheated, and served up AGAIN only this time the customer had no chance to say No. Forced through parliaments
An outrage. And of course the Brits were promised a vote by both big parties, and both big parties reneged
That was the point when my heart turned entirely against the EU, and I realised that if given a binary in/out choice, I would surely have to vote Out, even tho there was much I cherished in the EU
The arrogant stupidity of europhiles in not giving us a vote earlier than 2016 resulted, paradoxically, in their dream of Europe totally crashing around their ears
It's amazing that they still struggle to understand this and instead prefer to blame it on "Boomers with 3 O-Levels".
But it absolutely was Boomers with 3 O-Levels. Sorry, as your first-order approximation that IS who voted for it. Older, and less educated, were the ones who voted Leave.
Yes yes, not all old people, we all know pensioners who voted Remain and spotty teenagers who voted Leave. But the correlations are pretty stark.
The issue, I think, is tone and terminology. It comes across as dismissive and judgemental of people who are older and less educated. If not, why not just refer more neutrally to older and less educated?
Boomer is a pejorative term, and though I switched from leave to remain post referendum, I do think people are very quick to criticise the less educated in so dismissive a a way as if in itself their being less educated means their concerns and wishes are less valid, even if such a view is never raised if they vote a different way. We saw some of that in 2019 with Tories winning among the poorer and less educated, and this suddenly being presented as an issue, when it surely won't be seen as such if the trend reverses.
I'm sorry if that seems tedious, but I was in favour of a second referendum in order to change course to remain, and I just don't see why it is necessary to denigrate anybody for their vote, or change of mind, and yet even if not everyone intends that the tone leads it that way. Getting huffy about others getting huffy about it, is no high ground position either.
The reality is that much of the Remainer electorate thinks of anyone without a degree as plebs that can't be trusted. It is an inherent undemocratic mindset, which is a strong reason why so many support the EU in the first place. Isn't it so much better to be ruled by sophisticated continental elites who can overrule the troglodyte British electorate? Haven't you even been to Stoke or Nottingham? Those people are ghastly!
The reality is that slightly more people voted Leave than Remain, so we’re no longer in the EU. And there’s not a chance we’re going back in. Most people of working age voted Remain, but a higher percentage of older people voted Leave and turnout was highest among the older demographics. It was age more than anything else that determined the outcome. PB is not representative of either Leave or Remain voters. Neither is Twitter.
What would be nice is if we could get to a form of Brexit that does not involve harming ourselves. But we’re a long way from that, unfortunately. Too many on both sides of the equation think we still might rejoin. Until we get past this absurdity, we’re going to struggle.
Morning all. I think this one is pretty easy. The ideal is obviously to have standard units of measurement that everyone - young and old, right left or centrist, British or burdened by being foreign - understands and uses. That's the point of a measurement system. Clarity and consistency across people and places. So this should be the direction of travel. Going in the opposite direction, whilst not the most terrible thing in the world, is a bit silly. Which is on brand for this government. Everything they do that isn't terrible is a bit silly.
Hardly anyone in the UK uses metric measurements to describe their height.
Height really is the exteme in the measurement discussion though. In Australia they introduced the metric system for everything well over fifty years ago. When I lived there 20 years ago, most people still quoted their height in feet and inches even though all other linear measurements were in m/km/cm/mm and not many know how far 10 miles is. Weight is always given in Kg even in informal conversation.
I'm sure the reason for this is that people numeric height's are quoted and discussed in informal conversation very often (much more often than weight is) and so the old units remain in common usage for a long time.
Also height, unlike weight, effectively doesn't change for an adult.
Once you know your height, as an adult, you quote the same number pretty much for the rest of your life. Quoting a different number would be as alien as changing your date of birth.
For me, like many Leavers, it was the Lisbon Treaty that made me decide to leave once it was clear that no meaningful renegotiation was possible.
Amongst many things that awful treaty did, as a nakedly transparent rehash of the EU Constitution, it gave the EU legal identity so it could sign treaties in its own name, without reference to its member nations, created a president and high commissioner for foreign affairs, drove a huge extension in QMV voting, and enshrined the Charter of Fundamental Rights into EU law. This was one of the most potent drivers for me as it made rights judicable by the ECJ which led to them demanding the UK review its policy of not giving suffrage to prisoners.
This was then exacerbated by the agenda laid down by the new President Juncker who wanted to go even further and laid out a vision of EU social and fiscal union on top. A man who Cameron tried to stop and failed to stop.
No. No No No.
If Cameron had managed to achieve what he'd laid out in his Bloomberg Speech in 2013 it might have been different, but it wasn't.
I won't vote for any party that wants to take the UK back into that.
The Lisbon Treaty was a vile thing in itself. Even worse, however, was the way it was smuggled into existence
Rejected twice as the Constitution, in France and the Netherlands, it was shoved in the microwave, reheated, and served up AGAIN only this time the customer had no chance to say No. Forced through parliaments
An outrage. And of course the Brits were promised a vote by both big parties, and both big parties reneged
That was the point when my heart turned entirely against the EU, and I realised that if given a binary in/out choice, I would surely have to vote Out, even tho there was much I cherished in the EU
The arrogant stupidity of europhiles in not giving us a vote earlier than 2016 resulted, paradoxically, in their dream of Europe totally crashing around their ears
It's amazing that they still struggle to understand this and instead prefer to blame it on "Boomers with 3 O-Levels".
But it absolutely was Boomers with 3 O-Levels. Sorry, as your first-order approximation that IS who voted for it. Older, and less educated, were the ones who voted Leave.
Yes yes, not all old people, we all know pensioners who voted Remain and spotty teenagers who voted Leave. But the correlations are pretty stark.
How do you explain me then? A millennial with 4 A-levels, and a master's degree from a Russell Group university, who works in the professional services sector in London and has a foreign wife?
All the data shows is that most people in high-income/high-education groups who are politically apathetic/unbothered about the EU vote in their own economic self-interest, rather than on principle; not that they possess superior insight and intelligence - and are therefore right.
You’re on the right and relatively well off. I would imagine you voted for the Singapore-on-Thames, I don’t like those bloody EU socialists dictating to us Brexit, not back to the 50s and 60s when everything was better Brexit I think many Red Wall voters wanted - the unspoken corollary of that being when there were no non-whites.
Isn't it quite a major element of the leftist critique of the EU that it is an organisation founded on "Neoliberal" assumptions, and therefore antithetical to socialism?
Though I'd have to do some reading to draw a line around which bits of the left take that position, and which ones have a different view.
Remainers predicting we will Rejoin by 2040 should, perhaps, consider how the world has changed in the last six years, since Brexit. They are trying to look forward TWELVE years
18 years
And as the one who mentioned 2040...
Events, sure. Though events can push the dial either way. And most events, even big ones, are more transient than we might think. You can see the Vaccine War blip in the Brexit polling (and rightly so- it was a significant mistake by Brussels, albeit one that was swifty corrected), but it was a blip.
And the tectonics- both the age profile of Yay or Nay to Brexit in the UK, the sense that it isn't going well and it's not clear where the big win comes from, and the observation that nobody on the continent is looking at the UK and saying "yes, I'll have a bit of that"- point to a couple of decades.
But it is 18 years
Try and pick an 18 year period since, say, 1900, in which the world has not been transformed
1900-1918. The Great War, the Russian Revolution, the Spanish flu, the end of the Austrian and Ottoman empires, and much more
1918-1936? The Great Depression, the Russian Civil War, the rise of Hitler, Mussolini, Irish indy, the Spanish civil war
1936-1954 I shan’t bother
1954-1974 Space is explored. Man on the moon. Indian independence. End of empires. The sexual revolution. The pill. Nuclear stand off. The EEC is founded, Vietnam
1974-1992 Vietnam War ends. Watergate. Britain collapses. Thatcher, Reagan. Berlin Wall falls. The end of communism. EEC evolves towards EU. The internet begins
1992-2010 History speeds up again. Germany reunited. Collapse of USSR. War across Asia. American hegemony then the end of the American century. China rises. Incredible globalisation. Internet goes mad. 9/11. Terrorism. Smartphones. Iraq.
2010-now transformation of global economy. China becomes biggest trader. Africa turns to Beijing. EU expands. Scottish indy no. Brexit! Mass migration. Climate change. Social media changes humanity. Trump. Global plague. Ukraine
Ergo, predicting there will be a recognisable UK to join a recognisable EU in 18 years time is a fool’s errand. 18 years is an epoch and so much will happen to render this prediction quite fatuous
Having just returned from a holiday to France, Portugal and Spain, the rumours of Europe's demise are greatly exaggerated.
Busy cities, hardly any mask wearing and a sense of normality very much the theme.
I live the travel journals to others but Lisbon and Seville are both beautiful cities and Cartagena has grown on me. I also loved the Ile de Re on the French west coast - a land of salt and cognac so I am told.
On the ship (there's a clue), mask wearing recommended and the poor crew were wearing them all the time but most passengers didn't. The ship was only 45-50% full on this trip (which was very pleasant for us but not good for the cruise line economically) but the cruise heading put from Southampton today running at 90% capacity.
Remainers predicting we will Rejoin by 2040 should, perhaps, consider how the world has changed in the last six years, since Brexit. They are trying to look forward TWELVE years
EIGHTEEN years.
Think back to 2004 and how much of our politics has changed since then. People were wondering if the Tories would ever get back into office, the Iraq war was dominating politics and the primary European debate was whether and when we should join the Euro.
If anyone makes any confident predictions for two decades time, they're a fool.
It is, as you say, difficult to predict 2 decades ahead, yet good governance requires some long-term planning with a horizon of 2+ decades. We might not know where we will be in 20 years, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t plot a course.
Remainers predicting we will Rejoin by 2040 should, perhaps, consider how the world has changed in the last six years, since Brexit. They are trying to look forward TWELVE years
18 years
And as the one who mentioned 2040...
Events, sure. Though events can push the dial either way. And most events, even big ones, are more transient than we might think. You can see the Vaccine War blip in the Brexit polling (and rightly so- it was a significant mistake by Brussels, albeit one that was swifty corrected), but it was a blip.
And the tectonics- both the age profile of Yay or Nay to Brexit in the UK, the sense that it isn't going well and it's not clear where the big win comes from, and the observation that nobody on the continent is looking at the UK and saying "yes, I'll have a bit of that"- point to a couple of decades.
But it is 18 years
Try and pick an 18 year period since, say, 1900, in which the world has not been transformed
1900-1918. The Great War, the Russian Revolution, the Spanish flu, the end of the Austrian and Ottoman empires, and much more
1918-1936? The Great Depression, the Russian Civil War, the rise of Hitler, Mussolini, Irish indy, the Spanish civil war
1936-1954 I shan’t bother
1954-1974 Space is explored. Man on the moon. Indian independence. End of empires. The sexual revolution. The pill. Nuclear stand off. The EEC is founded, Vietnam
1974-1992 Vietnam War ends. Watergate. Britain collapses. Thatcher, Reagan. Berlin Wall falls. The end of communism. EEC evolves towards EU. The internet begins
1992-2010 History speeds up again. Germany reunited. Collapse of USSR. War across Asia. American hegemony then the end of the American century. China rises. Incredible globalisation. Internet goes mad. 9/11. Terrorism. Smartphones. Iraq.
2010-now transformation of global economy. China becomes biggest trader. Africa turns to Beijing. EU expands. Scottish indy no. Brexit! Mass migration. Climate change. Social media changes humanity. Trump. Global plague. Ukraine
Ergo, predicting there will be a recognisable UK to join a recognisable EU in 18 years time is a fool’s errand. 18 years is an epoch and so much will happen to render this prediction quite fatuous
I sometimes think of my grandfather in this context, who was born before motor cars were invented and lived long enough to watch men on the moon on his TV. Somehow managed to take it all in his stride.
For me, like many Leavers, it was the Lisbon Treaty that made me decide to leave once it was clear that no meaningful renegotiation was possible.
Amongst many things that awful treaty did, as a nakedly transparent rehash of the EU Constitution, it gave the EU legal identity so it could sign treaties in its own name, without reference to its member nations, created a president and high commissioner for foreign affairs, drove a huge extension in QMV voting, and enshrined the Charter of Fundamental Rights into EU law. This was one of the most potent drivers for me as it made rights judicable by the ECJ which led to them demanding the UK review its policy of not giving suffrage to prisoners.
This was then exacerbated by the agenda laid down by the new President Juncker who wanted to go even further and laid out a vision of EU social and fiscal union on top. A man who Cameron tried to stop and failed to stop.
No. No No No.
If Cameron had managed to achieve what he'd laid out in his Bloomberg Speech in 2013 it might have been different, but it wasn't.
I won't vote for any party that wants to take the UK back into that.
The Lisbon Treaty was a vile thing in itself. Even worse, however, was the way it was smuggled into existence
Rejected twice as the Constitution, in France and the Netherlands, it was shoved in the microwave, reheated, and served up AGAIN only this time the customer had no chance to say No. Forced through parliaments
An outrage. And of course the Brits were promised a vote by both big parties, and both big parties reneged
That was the point when my heart turned entirely against the EU, and I realised that if given a binary in/out choice, I would surely have to vote Out, even tho there was much I cherished in the EU
The arrogant stupidity of europhiles in not giving us a vote earlier than 2016 resulted, paradoxically, in their dream of Europe totally crashing around their ears
It's amazing that they still struggle to understand this and instead prefer to blame it on "Boomers with 3 O-Levels".
But it absolutely was Boomers with 3 O-Levels. Sorry, as your first-order approximation that IS who voted for it. Older, and less educated, were the ones who voted Leave.
Yes yes, not all old people, we all know pensioners who voted Remain and spotty teenagers who voted Leave. But the correlations are pretty stark.
The issue, I think, is tone and terminology. It comes across as dismissive and judgemental of people who are older and less educated. If not, why not just refer more neutrally to older and less educated?
Boomer is a pejorative term, and though I switched from leave to remain post referendum, I do think people are very quick to criticise the less educated in so dismissive a a way as if in itself their being less educated means their concerns and wishes are less valid, even if such a view is never raised if they vote a different way. We saw some of that in 2019 with Tories winning among the poorer and less educated, and this suddenly being presented as an issue, when it surely won't be seen as such if the trend reverses.
I'm sorry if that seems tedious, but I was in favour of a second referendum in order to change course to remain, and I just don't see why it is necessary to denigrate anybody for their vote, or change of mind, and yet even if not everyone intends that the tone leads it that way. Getting huffy about others getting huffy about it, is no high ground position either.
The reality is that much of the Remainer electorate thinks of anyone without a degree as plebs that can't be trusted. It is an inherent undemocratic mindset, which is a strong reason why so many support the EU in the first place. Isn't it so much better to be ruled by sophisticated continental elites who can overrule the troglodyte British electorate? Haven't you even been to Stoke or Nottingham? Those people are ghastly!
The reality is that slightly more people voted Leave than Remain, so we’re no longer in the EU. And there’s not a chance we’re going back in. Most people of working age voted Remain, but a higher percentage of older people voted Leave and turnout was highest among the older demographics. It was age more than anything else that determined the outcome. PB is not representative of either Leave or Remain voters. Neither is Twitter.
What would be nice is if we could get to a form of Brexit that does not involve harming ourselves. But we’re a long way from that, unfortunately. Too many on both sides of the equation think we still might rejoin. Until we get past this absurdity, we’re going to struggle.
To be constructive, what would help is this: all the major players in Brexit leaving the scene, once and for all. Of course this means Boris, he has to go anyway, but this would be another positive consequence of his departure. It would help to drain the poison of Brexit
However, it also means Starmer has to go. He was shadow Brexit secretary and a VERY prominent “2nd Voter”. Leavers simply won’t trust him not to try and smuggle us back in
We need a clean sweep of all of them. Then we can reset
@vicderbyshire@BorisJohnson@BBCNews This is the second time in two days that Carrie Johnson has worn a big hat that allows her to stand next to Boris Johnson and not have to look at him.
Back to the Platinum Jubilee celebrations and a busy Waterloo Station this morning - the tubes much quieter.
On the wider issue, I yield to no one in my admiration for the Queen's life of duty and service which has been exemplary. It's incredible to think when she came to the throne, Churchill was PM, Truman was President and Stalin still ruled the USSR. The continuity she has provided in an incredibly changing world is perhaps what many will miss.
I'm no ardent monarchist but my line is very much akin to Churchill's on capitalism. The current system works and as long as the incumbent monarch plays his or her part there's no reason to change it. Both George VI and her daughter have been examples of what a constitutional monarchy should be. We have been, to an extent, lucky. Would we have been so had Edward VIII continued as King - I don't know. I've few concerns going forward but there will come a day when the King or Queen doesn't comport themselves in a way many will find appropriate either through opinion or action.
Let's not forget the monarchy was deeply unpopular at times in the 19th Century and the assumption of continued popular support can never be taken for granted.
The truth continues to emerge and it is terrifying. @EmmanuelMacron wallows in silence. @GDarmanin equivocates. The Government must apologise to the British people and the prefect, like the minister, must resign. What happened is shameful.
The Brexit vote was determined in 2004, courtesy of Tony. I remember the Government being given license to slow down the open doors policy - a sop to those less keen on uncontrolled immigarion. I return to Boston regularly to see family and I was surprised by the reaction as time went on. We'd had some Portuguese migrants initially, to only minor comment, but the numbers suddenly swelled when Eastern Europe was opened up.
I was surprised; they were white, Catholic (as I am), and worked hard. OK, they increased the drink-driving figures, used knives - but mainly between themselves, and at that time, many of them spoke Russian as a second language, which caused problems for the local teachers. But it was the sheer numbers, encouraged by Blair et al who claimed very few would come, alongside a silly wish to 'rub the right's nose in it'.
Ths caused a massive trust problem. But Tony was on a roll. I have faith in Bostonians, I'm sure with more sure-footedness political instincts, the problem would have eased. But power and absolute power do strange things.
The farmers gained, the local RC Church boomed, but the feeling grew that no one was listening. Having only 76% vote Leave was a triumph in the circumstances. Tin-eared politicians are always with us, and BoJo is no exception. But the die was cast then, and there's no going back. It was never an economc argument in the first place. The Remain storm troppers tried to make it one, but soon reverted to accusations of their opponents being racists and ignorant scum. The result was inevitable. As you sow.
It could have been so different.
Yes. FOM was the decisive factor in making the (correct) Brexit decision possible and this was brought about by ludicrous hubris from UK elites. But the EU project was run with outrageous hubris too. This mixed with democratic deficit was utterly toxic.
By 2016 there were no good options and no good outcomes in the short to medium term. EFTA would have been easily the best (though not solving FOM). There are still no good options. If there were Labour would be having a go at telling us what they are.
There would be no good options if we were still in the EU either.
That state, as it is now, indicates a long term policy fail of epic proportions.
My issue with Brexit now is that anyone that raises issues is told they're trying to get us to rejoin.
I have no interest in seeing us back in the EU, we've left, fine. But the current arrangement is not working
Indeed - there are some who woul dpush for that, but the pretence is that any concerns are seeking rejoin.
It's one reason people at extremes from both sides like to refight the initial vote, whether it was right or wrong and what was promised or threatened, as it is an easier fight than the question of what now?
The Leave campaign said we’d be in a free trade zone that stretched from Iceland to Turkiye. That sounds good to me; let’s negotiate that. It is eminently achievable while staying out of the EU.
@vicderbyshire@BorisJohnson@BBCNews This is the second time in two days that Carrie Johnson has worn a big hat that allows her to stand next to Boris Johnson and not have to look at him.
For me, like many Leavers, it was the Lisbon Treaty that made me decide to leave once it was clear that no meaningful renegotiation was possible.
Amongst many things that awful treaty did, as a nakedly transparent rehash of the EU Constitution, it gave the EU legal identity so it could sign treaties in its own name, without reference to its member nations, created a president and high commissioner for foreign affairs, drove a huge extension in QMV voting, and enshrined the Charter of Fundamental Rights into EU law. This was one of the most potent drivers for me as it made rights judicable by the ECJ which led to them demanding the UK review its policy of not giving suffrage to prisoners.
This was then exacerbated by the agenda laid down by the new President Juncker who wanted to go even further and laid out a vision of EU social and fiscal union on top. A man who Cameron tried to stop and failed to stop.
No. No No No.
If Cameron had managed to achieve what he'd laid out in his Bloomberg Speech in 2013 it might have been different, but it wasn't.
I won't vote for any party that wants to take the UK back into that.
The Lisbon Treaty was a vile thing in itself. Even worse, however, was the way it was smuggled into existence
Rejected twice as the Constitution, in France and the Netherlands, it was shoved in the microwave, reheated, and served up AGAIN only this time the customer had no chance to say No. Forced through parliaments
An outrage. And of course the Brits were promised a vote by both big parties, and both big parties reneged
That was the point when my heart turned entirely against the EU, and I realised that if given a binary in/out choice, I would surely have to vote Out, even tho there was much I cherished in the EU
The arrogant stupidity of europhiles in not giving us a vote earlier than 2016 resulted, paradoxically, in their dream of Europe totally crashing around their ears
It's amazing that they still struggle to understand this and instead prefer to blame it on "Boomers with 3 O-Levels".
But it absolutely was Boomers with 3 O-Levels. Sorry, as your first-order approximation that IS who voted for it. Older, and less educated, were the ones who voted Leave.
Yes yes, not all old people, we all know pensioners who voted Remain and spotty teenagers who voted Leave. But the correlations are pretty stark.
The issue, I think, is tone and terminology. It comes across as dismissive and judgemental of people who are older and less educated. If not, why not just refer more neutrally to older and less educated?
Boomer is a pejorative term, and though I switched from leave to remain post referendum, I do think people are very quick to criticise the less educated in so dismissive a a way as if in itself their being less educated means their concerns and wishes are less valid, even if such a view is never raised if they vote a different way. We saw some of that in 2019 with Tories winning among the poorer and less educated, and this suddenly being presented as an issue, when it surely won't be seen as such if the trend reverses.
I'm sorry if that seems tedious, but I was in favour of a second referendum in order to change course to remain, and I just don't see why it is necessary to denigrate anybody for their vote, or change of mind, and yet even if not everyone intends that the tone leads it that way. Getting huffy about others getting huffy about it, is no high ground position either.
The reality is that much of the Remainer electorate thinks of anyone without a degree as plebs that can't be trusted. It is an inherent undemocratic mindset, which is a strong reason why so many support the EU in the first place. Isn't it so much better to be ruled by sophisticated continental elites who can overrule the troglodyte British electorate? Haven't you even been to Stoke or Nottingham? Those people are ghastly!
The reality is that slightly more people voted Leave than Remain, so we’re no longer in the EU. And there’s not a chance we’re going back in. Most people of working age voted Remain, but a higher percentage of older people voted Leave and turnout was highest among the older demographics. It was age more than anything else that determined the outcome. PB is not representative of either Leave or Remain voters. Neither is Twitter.
What would be nice is if we could get to a form of Brexit that does not involve harming ourselves. But we’re a long way from that, unfortunately. Too many on both sides of the equation think we still might rejoin. Until we get past this absurdity, we’re going to struggle.
To be constructive, what would help is this: all the major players in Brexit leaving the scene, once and for all. Of course this means Boris, he has to go anyway, but this would be another positive consequence of his departure. It would help to drain the poison of Brexit
However, it also means Starmer has to go. He was shadow Brexit secretary and a VERY prominent “2nd Voter”. Leavers simply won’t trust him not to try and smuggle us back in
We need a clean sweep of all of them. Then we can reset
I’m inclined to agree. Starmer is hamstrung because of what he did before. He cannot move on anything. I also think it will need a new French president because that well is now so poisoned. We’ve got at least another four years of, at best, stasis to look forward to. But for as long as this UK government and Macron are facing each other it will get worse.
Remainers predicting we will Rejoin by 2040 should, perhaps, consider how the world has changed in the last six years, since Brexit. They are trying to look forward TWELVE years
EIGHTEEN years.
Think back to 2004 and how much of our politics has changed since then. People were wondering if the Tories would ever get back into office, the Iraq war was dominating politics and the primary European debate was whether and when we should join the Euro.
If anyone makes any confident predictions for two decades time, they're a fool.
It is, as you say, difficult to predict 2 decades ahead, yet good governance requires some long-term planning with a horizon of 2+ decades. We might not know where we will be in 20 years, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t plot a course.
One of the criticism of Johnson's government is that doesn't plan or chart a course. It is a government with ADHD, grasping any idea that the random policy generator chucks out. It isn't just Starmer who struggles with the vision thing.
Comments
"Aviation chaos: We need to talk about Brexit "
If anyone makes any confident predictions for two decades time, they're a fool.
He's a very bright bloke.
Rejected twice as the Constitution, in France and the Netherlands, it was shoved in the microwave, reheated, and served up AGAIN only this time the customer had no chance to say No. Forced through parliaments
An outrage. And of course the Brits were promised a vote by both big parties, and both big parties reneged
That was the point when my heart turned entirely against the EU, and I realised that if given a binary in/out choice, I would surely have to vote Out, even tho there was much I cherished in the EU
The arrogant stupidity of europhiles in not giving us a vote earlier than 2016 resulted, paradoxically, in their dream of Europe totally crashing around their ears
https://twitter.com/luckyma_man/status/1532611741233864704/photo/1
The conversation moved on quite a lot before I stuck my oar in.
Ratchetting goes one way normally and inertia will make Brexit an oddity.
It'll be a single state (in many ways it already is actually) but with meaningful sub-states just as the USA has still after centuries of federation.
I think that booing will be seen as quite symbolic when the downfall happens.
The EU might be no more relevant by then than ANZUS is now. Or even the Warsaw Pact/Comecon
Yes yes, not all old people, we all know pensioners who voted Remain and spotty teenagers who voted Leave. But the correlations are pretty stark.
I use metric when calculating BMI in my head, but then the calc in Imperial is slightly complex !
What's 5'10" squared, divided by 13 stone 12 lb.? There are limits.
It's one reason people at extremes from both sides like to refight the initial vote, whether it was right or wrong and what was promised or threatened, as it is an easier fight than the question of what now?
Events, sure. Though events can push the dial either way. And most events, even big ones, are more transient than we might think. You can see the Vaccine War blip in the Brexit polling (and rightly so- it was a significant mistake by Brussels, albeit one that was swifty corrected), but it was a blip.
And the tectonics- both the age profile of Yay or Nay to Brexit in the UK, the sense that it isn't going well and it's not clear where the big win comes from, and the observation that nobody on the continent is looking at the UK and saying "yes, I'll have a bit of that"- point to a couple of decades.
Even after the public said no the Constitution, that little irritant was ignored and the elites deemed it inappropriate to ask again. Even still today you hear about people talking about Cameron's foolishness in asking the people in this country what we wanted.
Of course their votes should be discounted because they are stupid, and relatively uneducated…. which means no more Labour governments, ever
Sees Brexteers returning to their self-pitying vomit on how Remoaners keep calling them thick racists, immediately turns to exploring the intricacies of Virginia defamation law and looking for clips of Johnny Depp on stage with Jeff Beck.
Also, UVDL is getting a bit of stick for having allowed Poland access to their portion of the "recovery fund" (that is the EUs post-Covid recovery funding mechanism). EU-integration ultras want PL punished, and are trying to use it as a lever to make sure that reforms to remove the Foreign Policy Veto for individual members proceed.
Not quite what I was expecting tbh, but with Brussels it is always kremlinology.
The fallout within @EU_Commission from @vonderleyen approval of 🇵🇱 recovery plan is unprecedented - & says a lot about the culture of VdL's COM & the extent to which she has centralised decision-making
She has to be more inclusive - & try to keep her top team involved & on board
https://twitter.com/Mij_Europe/status/1532112922473807874
I'm surprised you've made the tactical error of letting ME be the one to point that out to YOU.
And the people not doing so well aren't going to be comforted by their passports and 2kW vacuums. Are they getting the meaningful change they want?
See you x
All the data shows is that most people in high-income/high-education groups who are politically apathetic/unbothered about the EU vote in their own economic self-interest, rather than on principle; not that they possess superior insight and intelligence - and are therefore right.
The evolution of the EU for most of Europe is like the metaphor of a slowly boiled frog, in one go people would have said no, but slowly ratchetting it people get used to it and no intermediate step seems so dramatic by itself that people revolt against it.
The UK was an exception as we were half-divorced already from Maastricht onwards, so it became a case of every step by them was even further from us and made an exit more and more plausible. But they're already increasingly boiled and used to it, any Eurozone nation exiting will be so dramatic it will make Brexit look like a stroll in the park.
Boomer is a pejorative term, and though I switched from leave to remain post referendum, I do think people are very quick to criticise the less educated in so dismissive a a way as if in itself their being less educated means their concerns and wishes are less valid, even if such a view is never raised if they vote a different way. We saw some of that in 2019 with Tories winning among the poorer and less educated, and this suddenly being presented as an issue, when it surely won't be seen as such if the trend reverses.
I'm sorry if that seems tedious, but I was in favour of a second referendum in order to change course to remain, and I just don't see why it is necessary to denigrate anybody for their vote, or change of mind, and yet even if not everyone intends that the tone leads it that way. Getting huffy about others getting huffy about it, is no high ground position either.
However, if I even detect one iota of this in Starmer's manifesto, or the rhetoric of his shadow cabinet, then I will wade through blood for him in 2024.
Worldwide, COVID did a Great Reset (ha!) on the shit jobs
- If you are older, retire on the state pension, plus whatever personal stuff you have. Perhaps supplement with some part time work. And end up on more money.
- If you are younger, try a different job.
When *Amazon drivers* tell you that the job they have now is far better than the shit they were doing previously...
Particularly when you don't really have to do anything much.
You’re probably socially liberal and economically dry. The opposite of millions of Brexit voters and what they expect Brexit to bring.
Hence it is perceived to be failing. Because no-one is getting what they want.
Edit - by which i mean visit the family.
We already know what the claims were that we had to negotiate on paying back. Since we exited a common financing mechanism has been introduced for one, so if eg It or Gr wanted to leave they would have to deal individually with their part of the EU-backed debt (ie underwritten by Germany, Denmark etc). I can see Brussels demanding that it all be paid back in cash-on-the-nail immediately.
Part of the integration strategy is to make it impractical and difficult to leave.
Greece showed that beggars can't be choosers.
Typically he who pays the piper calls the tune and Germany fulfills that role there, the UK was in a very unusual situation in that we were massive payers towards Europe but we weren't calling the tune. That's a situation that was fairly unique to Britain, most other nations that are significant contributors either get what they need from Europe (like France and Germany) or are very small nations who are better off without borders (like the Netherlands).
Any more *-xits would need to be semi-divorced, net contributing nations that aren't in the Eurozone. Just about the only nation that leaves that's plausible is Sweden.
Try and pick an 18 year period since, say, 1900, in which the world has not been transformed
1900-1918. The Great War, the Russian Revolution, the Spanish flu, the end of the Austrian and Ottoman empires, and much more
1918-1936? The Great Depression, the Russian Civil War, the rise of Hitler, Mussolini, Irish indy, the Spanish civil war
1936-1954 I shan’t bother
1954-1974 Space is explored. Man on the moon. Indian independence. End of empires. The sexual revolution. The pill. Nuclear stand off. The EEC is founded, Vietnam
1974-1992 Vietnam War ends. Watergate. Britain collapses. Thatcher, Reagan. Berlin Wall falls. The end of communism. EEC evolves towards EU. The internet begins
1992-2010 History speeds up again. Germany reunited. Collapse of USSR. War across Asia. American hegemony then the end of the American century. China rises. Incredible globalisation. Internet goes mad. 9/11. Terrorism. Smartphones. Iraq.
2010-now transformation of global economy. China becomes biggest trader. Africa turns to Beijing. EU expands. Scottish indy no. Brexit! Mass migration. Climate change. Social media changes humanity. Trump. Global plague. Ukraine
Ergo, predicting there will be a recognisable UK to join a recognisable EU in 18 years time is a fool’s errand. 18 years is an epoch and so much will happen to render this prediction quite fatuous
EDIT: Gah, I still got the dates wrong
I was surprised; they were white, Catholic (as I am), and worked hard. OK, they increased the drink-driving figures, used knives - but mainly between themselves, and at that time, many of them spoke Russian as a second language, which caused problems for the local teachers. But it was the sheer numbers, encouraged by Blair et al who claimed very few would come, alongside a silly wish to 'rub the right's nose in it'.
Ths caused a massive trust problem. But Tony was on a roll. I have faith in Bostonians, I'm sure with more sure-footedness political instincts, the problem would have eased. But power and absolute power do strange things.
The farmers gained, the local RC Church boomed, but the feeling grew that no one was listening. Having only 76% vote Leave was a triumph in the circumstances. Tin-eared politicians are always with us, and BoJo is no exception. But the die was cast then, and there's no going back. It was never an economc argument in the first place. The Remain storm troppers tried to make it one, but soon reverted to accusations of their opponents being racists and ignorant scum. The result was inevitable. As you sow.
It could have been so different.
In fact it's a bit like Jaws - just when you think it's safe to return to PB, Brexit reappears and savages you. FFS.
Still, the point is good
If a week is a long time in politics then 18 years is an absolute fucking aeon in modern geopolitics, technological advance, and human culture, and in none of those 18 year periods could anyone at the start have correctly predicted what the world would look like at the end
Tesla CEO Elon Musk has a "super bad feeling" about the economy and needs to cut about 10% of jobs at the electric carmaker, he said in an email to executives seen by Reuters.
The message, sent on Thursday and titled "pause all hiring worldwide", came two days after the billionaire told staff to return to the workplace or leave, and adds to a growing chorus of warnings from business leaders about the risks of recession.
A person who lives to the age of 75 can expect to see revolutionary transformations four times or more in that lifespan
“Omicron subvariant drives spike in cases and deaths in Portugal
“Europe faces prospect of further Covid measures later in the year as share of Omicron BA.5 cases rise in Portugal and Germany”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/03/omicron-covid-subvariant-drives-spike-in-cases-and-deaths-in-portgual?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
I'm sure the reason for this is that people numeric height's are quoted and discussed in informal conversation very often (much more often than weight is) and so the old units remain in common usage for a long time.
What would be nice is if we could get to a form of Brexit that does not involve harming ourselves. But we’re a long way from that, unfortunately. Too many on both sides of the equation think we still might rejoin. Until we get past this absurdity, we’re going to struggle.
Once you know your height, as an adult, you quote the same number pretty much for the rest of your life. Quoting a different number would be as alien as changing your date of birth.
Though I'd have to do some reading to draw a line around which bits of the left take that position, and which ones have a different view.
Busy cities, hardly any mask wearing and a sense of normality very much the theme.
I live the travel journals to others but Lisbon and Seville are both beautiful cities and Cartagena has grown on me. I also loved the Ile de Re on the French west coast - a land of salt and cognac so I am told.
On the ship (there's a clue), mask wearing recommended and the poor crew were wearing them all the time but most passengers didn't. The ship was only 45-50% full on this trip (which was very pleasant for us but not good for the cruise line economically) but the cruise heading put from Southampton today running at 90% capacity.
However, it also means Starmer has to go. He was shadow Brexit secretary and a VERY prominent “2nd Voter”. Leavers simply won’t trust him not to try and smuggle us back in
We need a clean sweep of all of them. Then we can reset
There's a surprise
After weeks of no-show.
#PlatinumJubilee
#platinumjubilee2022
#platiniumjubilee
#PlattyJoobs
#Boofhead
#CarrieAntoinette https://twitter.com/bloggerheads/status/1532666977998802946/video/1
Back to the Platinum Jubilee celebrations and a busy Waterloo Station this morning - the tubes much quieter.
On the wider issue, I yield to no one in my admiration for the Queen's life of duty and service which has been exemplary. It's incredible to think when she came to the throne, Churchill was PM, Truman was President and Stalin still ruled the USSR. The continuity she has provided in an incredibly changing world is perhaps what many will miss.
I'm no ardent monarchist but my line is very much akin to Churchill's on capitalism. The current system works and as long as the incumbent monarch plays his or her part there's no reason to change it. Both George VI and her daughter have been examples of what a constitutional monarchy should be. We have been, to an extent, lucky. Would we have been so had Edward VIII continued as King - I don't know. I've few concerns going forward but there will come a day when the King or Queen doesn't comport themselves in a way many will find appropriate either through opinion or action.
Let's not forget the monarchy was deeply unpopular at times in the 19th Century and the assumption of continued popular support can never be taken for granted.
https://twitter.com/JulienAubert84/status/1532678949238673408
The truth continues to emerge and it is terrifying. @EmmanuelMacron wallows in silence. @GDarmanin equivocates. The Government must apologise to the British people and the prefect, like the minister, must resign. What happened is shameful.
By 2016 there were no good options and no good outcomes in the short to medium term. EFTA would have been easily the best (though not solving FOM). There are still no good options. If there were Labour would be having a go at telling us what they are.
There would be no good options if we were still in the EU either.
That state, as it is now, indicates a long term policy fail of epic proportions.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/06/03/boris-carrie-johnson-booed-arrive-st-pauls/