“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death. https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752
Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.
Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?
I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.
We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.
Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.
Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.
It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.
I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.
I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.
Lets get on with it.
However what we do re NI I have no idea.
I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.
Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.
Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.
Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.
Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions
Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so
Remainers: we don't like this one little bit Leavers: STOP SUBVERTING THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE TRAITOR. GET OUT OF THE WAY, SIT DOWN, SHUT UP, AND LET US GET ON WITH THIS Remainers: ... Leavers: WHY AREN'T YOU ADMITTING YOU WANT TO REJOIN?
I don't know anyone who has anything to do with international trade, or with reasonably high education, who doesn't think Leaving was a mistake, and doesn't want to rejoin.
You don’t get out much if you don’t meet well-educated Leavers
On the other hand, you express an underlying truth which I have now been noting for a while. There is a lot of Rejoin sentiment out there, especially on the Left (where it is intense), as soon as Labour reach power (they will try and hide all this until then) it will burst into the open like a nest of spiderlings hatching out. Starmer, if he is PM, will come under immediate, severe pressure to move swiftly closer to the EU
Una popcornio momenta
Sadly, Leon, I can barely get out at all these days. I should have said anyone outside one or two people on boards such as this, to be more accurate.
We are always pleased to have you here OKC, I hope you are keeping well.
LBC's Matthew Thompson on Twitter: Well. What was previously a joyous atmosphere turns to a chorus of boos and whistles as Boris and Carrie Johnson walk up the steps into St Paul’s Cathedral.
"They want to touch him, they love Boris".
He's finished.
Sounds like a mix of booing and cheering.
About what you'd expect from any PM, especially a controversial Tory one.
If everyone who was ever booed was "finished" then we'd never have a Tory government.
Question - does the UK have a designated survivor for public events like the US does? Seems like an awful lot of the UK's senior people are all in one place right now.
“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death. https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752
Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.
Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?
I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.
We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.
Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.
Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.
It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.
I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.
I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.
Lets get on with it.
However what we do re NI I have no idea.
I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.
Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.
Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.
Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.
Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions
Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so
Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.
Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .
Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic
And for now, he's right to do so. Noise and toxicity beat raw numbers.
I stick by my calendar proposed on Brexit Day;
The 2024 rewrite of the TCA (which has to happen) will actually promote trade and co-operation at the expense of the UK giving up some of the more hypothetical freedoms.
2029 will be EEA in all but name.
2040ish will be the UK choosing to be in the room when decisions are taken.
Yes, that will be the broad timetable. By then it will be a bigger EU, containing the South Balkans, Ukraine, Georgia, and Scotland.
Question - does the UK have a designated survivor for public events like the US does? Seems like an awful lot of the UK's senior people are all in one place right now.
LBC's Matthew Thompson on Twitter: Well. What was previously a joyous atmosphere turns to a chorus of boos and whistles as Boris and Carrie Johnson walk up the steps into St Paul’s Cathedral.
"They want to touch him, they love Boris".
He's finished.
Sounds like a mix of booing and cheering.
About what you'd expect from any PM, especially a controversial Tory one.
If everyone who was ever booed was "finished" then we'd never have a Tory government.
LBC's Matthew Thompson on Twitter: Well. What was previously a joyous atmosphere turns to a chorus of boos and whistles as Boris and Carrie Johnson walk up the steps into St Paul’s Cathedral.
"They want to touch him, they love Boris".
He's finished.
Actually Sky kept playing his reception and concluded he received applause and boos much in equal number
As long as the mob are booing politicians and not the royals then all is well in England.
“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death. https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752
Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.
Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?
I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.
We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.
Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.
Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.
It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.
I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.
I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.
Lets get on with it.
However what we do re NI I have no idea.
I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.
Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.
Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.
Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.
Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions
Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so
Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.
Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .
Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic
And for now, he's right to do so. Noise and toxicity beat raw numbers.
I stick by my calendar proposed on Brexit Day;
The 2024 rewrite of the TCA (which has to happen) will actually promote trade and co-operation at the expense of the UK giving up some of the more hypothetical freedoms.
2029 will be EEA in all but name.
2040ish will be the UK choosing to be in the room when decisions are taken.
I don't see it, if Labour start talking about rewriting the TCA the Tories get the band back together and smash them at the election so the Labour manifesto will have a freeze on it.
By 2029 it's impossible to say what's going to happen. For all we know Russia has rolled it's tanks through Poland and we've all been vapourised by Russian nukes.
“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death. https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752
Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.
Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?
I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.
We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.
Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.
Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.
It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.
I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.
I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.
Lets get on with it.
However what we do re NI I have no idea.
I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.
Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.
Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.
Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.
Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions
Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so
Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.
Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .
Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic
Oh, I agree, but they do support much closer regulatory alignment, which means following EU rules and policy. It is the same direction but a slower track.
Following EU rules, but without any say in them, is a recipe for disaster.
Macron would delight in adding a “Screw the British” clause into every single piece of legislation, and direct tough enforcement for minor transgressions - as the French continue to ignore any rules they don’t like.
“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death. https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752
Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.
Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?
I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.
We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.
Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.
Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.
It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.
I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.
I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.
Lets get on with it.
However what we do re NI I have no idea.
I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.
Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.
Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.
Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.
Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions
Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so
Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.
Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .
Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic
And for now, he's right to do so. Noise and toxicity beat raw numbers.
I stick by my calendar proposed on Brexit Day;
The 2024 rewrite of the TCA (which has to happen) will actually promote trade and co-operation at the expense of the UK giving up some of the more hypothetical freedoms.
2029 will be EEA in all but name.
2040ish will be the UK choosing to be in the room when decisions are taken.
A generation of withered trade and soured relationships. And all so Boomers with 3 O-Levels could get a different coloured passport and a vacuum cleaner that pumps out useless extra heat.
There's a suggestion going around that Ukrainian forces who were supposed to have withdrawn from Severodonetsk have instead trapped the Russians there. Would be a very interesting move and apparently there are the same network of underground tunnels as we saw in Mariupol.
Possibly too good to be true. However: the Ukrainians have had a couple of months to prepare, and the experience of Mariupol (where they had much less time) shows they are very good at defensive strategies.
In the meantime, the Russians just seem to be going for a dumb throw-men-and-material-at-the-problem strategy.
Even by the standards of the MOD this seems to be egregiously bad.
A review of the Ajax project by the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) concluded a "litany of failures" had led to the years-long delays.
So far no operational vehicles have been delivered, despite the 12-year-old project already costing over £3bn.
The new reconnaissance vehicle was supposed to enter service in 2017...
Since the contract was signed in 2014, the project has delivered 26 reconnaissance vehicles out of a promised 589 vehicles - which can only be used for training...
However, the army has said it is "cautiously optimistic" that Ajax can enter service by 2030.
Even after all the delays it is only 'cautiously optimistic' they will enter service by 2030, and we all know that means it definitely won't.
How do contractors get away with this shit? There's no way that's just incompetence. You expect goverment to be in bed with defence contractors, but to allow this kind of thing must mean outright corruption, surely? Given the problems are never fixed and always reoccur.
Everybody involved gets some of the blame for this, there's plenty to go round.
It should, of course, be cancelled but the army will fight for it harder than they ever did in Basra or Helman because they quite correctly assume they won't get the money to buy anything else if they bin this off.
“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death. https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752
Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.
Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?
I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.
We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.
Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.
Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.
It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.
I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.
I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.
Lets get on with it.
However what we do re NI I have no idea.
I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.
Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.
Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.
Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.
Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions
Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so
Remainers: we don't like this one little bit Leavers: STOP SUBVERTING THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE TRAITOR. GET OUT OF THE WAY, SIT DOWN, SHUT UP, AND LET US GET ON WITH THIS Remainers: ... Leavers: WHY AREN'T YOU ADMITTING YOU WANT TO REJOIN?
I don't know anyone who has anything to do with international trade, or with reasonably high education, who doesn't think Leaving was a mistake, and doesn't want to rejoin.
You don’t get out much if you don’t meet well-educated Leavers
On the other hand, you express an underlying truth which I have now been noting for a while. There is a lot of Rejoin sentiment out there, especially on the Left (where it is intense), as soon as Labour reach power (they will try and hide all this until then) it will burst into the open like a nest of spiderlings hatching out. Starmer, if he is PM, will come under immediate, severe pressure to move swiftly closer to the EU
Una popcornio momenta
Sadly, Leon, I can barely get out at all these days. I should have said anyone outside one or two people on boards such as this, to be more accurate.
I’m sorry to hear that and I hope PB provides a modicum of entertainment to distract you
Thank you; it does and the descriptions of your travels enable me to, vicariously at least, enjoy places I would like to have visited but now, almost certainly, never will.
LBC's Matthew Thompson on Twitter: Well. What was previously a joyous atmosphere turns to a chorus of boos and whistles as Boris and Carrie Johnson walk up the steps into St Paul’s Cathedral.
"They want to touch him, they love Boris".
He's finished.
Sounds like a mix of booing and cheering.
About what you'd expect from any PM, especially a controversial Tory one.
If everyone who was ever booed was "finished" then we'd never have a Tory government.
No; it's such a strange occasion to even boo anyone. Remember this will be wall to wall Royalists, ergo the elderly/Tory in particular, with a few tourists without any hound in the fight.
LBC's Matthew Thompson on Twitter: Well. What was previously a joyous atmosphere turns to a chorus of boos and whistles as Boris and Carrie Johnson walk up the steps into St Paul’s Cathedral.
"They want to touch him, they love Boris".
He's finished.
Actually Sky kept playing his reception and concluded he received applause and boos much in equal number
I remember when Tim made a song and dance about George Osborne getting booed at the London Olympics.
He remained Chancellor for four more years, including helping the Tories gain seats and win an overall majority three years after the booing.
Boris should go, but boos are nothing new or newsworthy.
Question - does the UK have a designated survivor for public events like the US does? Seems like an awful lot of the UK's senior people are all in one place right now.
We do not, surviving MPs/cabinet would select a PM, crown to next in line thats not wiped out, i assume Andrew would be convinced to pass it, or would take a turn for the worse, sharpish
“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death. https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752
Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.
Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?
I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.
We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.
Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.
Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.
It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.
I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.
I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.
Lets get on with it.
However what we do re NI I have no idea.
I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.
Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.
Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.
Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.
Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions
Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so
Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.
Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .
Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic
Agree. The tricky questions are: What about EEA/EFTA and under a non Boris government would the EU be more open to flexible negotiation about SM and derogation from FOM.
Brexit would never have won if there had been a common sense derogation over FOM.
Your last sentence is spot on, and the EU have a lot of responsibility over their inflexibility which led to Brexit
You mean the incompetence of the governments you supported which did nothing about the key driver of FOM - entitlement to jobs and benefits simply by residence, without further qualification. Absolutely classic example of a Brexiter blaming the EU for his own government's incompetence.
Cameron did everything to seek the EU to compromise and no compromise came
I voted remain, and your inability to agree with the view the EU's stubborn attitude is not shared by many others
“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death. https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752
Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.
Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?
I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.
We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.
Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.
Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.
It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.
I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.
I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.
Lets get on with it.
However what we do re NI I have no idea.
I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.
Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.
Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.
Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.
Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions
Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so
Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.
Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .
Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic
Agree. The tricky questions are: What about EEA/EFTA and under a non Boris government would the EU be more open to flexible negotiation about SM and derogation from FOM.
Brexit would never have won if there had been a common sense derogation over FOM.
Your last sentence is spot on, and the EU have a lot of responsibility over their inflexibility which led to Brexit
You mean the incompetence of the governments you supported which did nothing about the key driver of FOM - entitlement to jobs and benefits simply by residence, without further qualification. Absolutely classic example of a Brexiter blaming the EU for his own government's incompetence.
Cameron did everything to seek the EU to compromise and no compromise came
I voted remain, and your inability to agree with the view the EU's stubborn attitude is not shared by many others
Other EU members have no problem with residence/ebnefits restrictions. Ergo your (then) favoured governments' sloth, incompetence and malicious blaming of the EU.
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 12m It's not exactly Ceausescu on the balcony. But Tory MPs will have noticed the boos for Boris. London crowd yes, but a crowd primarily made up of royal watchers.
Johnson is done if that's the public reaction, he's no longer "one of the lads", he's a spineless coward, bully and a liar. He has nothing left.
Labour should be absolutely storming in any GE, I really should consider chucking a quid on a landslide
They should. But they arent. They are a few ahead. Even Blair would have been only just into landslide without Scotland and he started many seats closer
There's a suggestion going around that Ukrainian forces who were supposed to have withdrawn from Severodonetsk have instead trapped the Russians there. Would be a very interesting move and apparently there are the same network of underground tunnels as we saw in Mariupol.
Possibly too good to be true. However: the Ukrainians have had a couple of months to prepare, and the experience of Mariupol (where they had much less time) shows they are very good at defensive strategies.
In the meantime, the Russians just seem to be going for a dumb throw-men-and-material-at-the-problem strategy.
But sometimes dumb wins...
Evenually, every army runs out of men and materiel, certainly in terms of what it can get to the front lines.
In other news, Ukranians are training in the UK on medium-range rocket-launchers due to be supplied there shortly. The Russians are dragging T-62s out of storage, and trying to keep them working long enough to get somewhere near a front line.
LBC's Matthew Thompson on Twitter: Well. What was previously a joyous atmosphere turns to a chorus of boos and whistles as Boris and Carrie Johnson walk up the steps into St Paul’s Cathedral.
"They want to touch him, they love Boris".
He's finished.
Actually Sky kept playing his reception and concluded he received applause and boos much in equal number
I remember when Tim made a song and dance about George Osborne getting booed at the London Olympics.
He remained Chancellor for four more years, including helping the Tories gain seats and win an overall majority three years after the booing.
Boris should go, but boos are nothing new or newsworthy.
No, the Olympics were blatantly political. This is a specifically Royal event. Like breaking wind at an Easter service in Cantderbury Cathedral, only it's intentional. Utterly intrusive.
LBC's Matthew Thompson on Twitter: Well. What was previously a joyous atmosphere turns to a chorus of boos and whistles as Boris and Carrie Johnson walk up the steps into St Paul’s Cathedral.
"They want to touch him, they love Boris".
He's finished.
Sounds like a mix of booing and cheering.
About what you'd expect from any PM, especially a controversial Tory one.
If everyone who was ever booed was "finished" then we'd never have a Tory government.
No; it's such a strange occasion to even boo anyone. Remember this will be wall to wall Royalists, ergo the elderly/Tory in particular, with a few tourists without any hound in the fight.
We need a camera on the crowd to know for sure. If there's a section of protesters who are there just to boo the PM then fine, it doesn't tell us anything. If it's 50-something new grandmothers with little union flags there to see the royals, then Boris is heading for a nasty (and well-deserved) crunch.
Question - does the UK have a designated survivor for public events like the US does? Seems like an awful lot of the UK's senior people are all in one place right now.
We do not, surviving MPs/cabinet would select a PM, crown to next in line thats not wiped out, i assume Andrew would be convinced to pass it, or would take a turn for the worse, sharpish
Isn't the Queen the designated survivor this morning?
She's a home watching it on tv with a cuppa and a packet of hobnobs.
LBC's Matthew Thompson on Twitter: Well. What was previously a joyous atmosphere turns to a chorus of boos and whistles as Boris and Carrie Johnson walk up the steps into St Paul’s Cathedral.
"They want to touch him, they love Boris".
He's finished.
Sounds like a mix of booing and cheering.
About what you'd expect from any PM, especially a controversial Tory one.
If everyone who was ever booed was "finished" then we'd never have a Tory government.
No; it's such a strange occasion to even boo anyone. Remember this will be wall to wall Royalists, ergo the elderly/Tory in particular, with a few tourists without any hound in the fight.
Does suggest defenestration equals big bounce as Fat Rover is the main issue
There's a suggestion going around that Ukrainian forces who were supposed to have withdrawn from Severodonetsk have instead trapped the Russians there. Would be a very interesting move and apparently there are the same network of underground tunnels as we saw in Mariupol.
Possibly too good to be true. However: the Ukrainians have had a couple of months to prepare, and the experience of Mariupol (where they had much less time) shows they are very good at defensive strategies.
In the meantime, the Russians just seem to be going for a dumb throw-men-and-material-at-the-problem strategy.
But sometimes dumb wins...
There is presumably a level of force from which no clever tactics or bravery can overcome. If that is the case, we can but hope it cannot be sustained for long and so can be reversed.
Question - does the UK have a designated survivor for public events like the US does? Seems like an awful lot of the UK's senior people are all in one place right now.
LBC's Matthew Thompson on Twitter: Well. What was previously a joyous atmosphere turns to a chorus of boos and whistles as Boris and Carrie Johnson walk up the steps into St Paul’s Cathedral.
"They want to touch him, they love Boris".
He's finished.
Sounds like a mix of booing and cheering.
About what you'd expect from any PM, especially a controversial Tory one.
If everyone who was ever booed was "finished" then we'd never have a Tory government.
Eat this delicious sandwich, the filling is a mix of shit and smoked salmon.
Question - does the UK have a designated survivor for public events like the US does? Seems like an awful lot of the UK's senior people are all in one place right now.
We do not, surviving MPs/cabinet would select a PM, crown to next in line thats not wiped out, i assume Andrew would be convinced to pass it, or would take a turn for the worse, sharpish
Isn't the Queen the designated survivor this morning?
She's a home watching it on tv with a cuppa and a packet of hobnobs.
'In this time of greatest need I have heard the people's call for stability and experience, and so appoint myself as Prime Minister'
Question - does the UK have a designated survivor for public events like the US does? Seems like an awful lot of the UK's senior people are all in one place right now.
We do not, surviving MPs/cabinet would select a PM, crown to next in line thats not wiped out, i assume Andrew would be convinced to pass it, or would take a turn for the worse, sharpish
Isn't the Queen the designated survivor this morning?
She's a home watching it on tv with a cuppa and a packet of hobnobs.
This is a rather pertinent point i had forgotten as im not watching!
“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death. https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752
Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.
Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?
I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.
We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.
Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.
Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.
It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.
I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.
I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.
Lets get on with it.
However what we do re NI I have no idea.
I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.
Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.
Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.
Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.
Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions
Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so
Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.
Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .
Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic
Agree. The tricky questions are: What about EEA/EFTA and under a non Boris government would the EU be more open to flexible negotiation about SM and derogation from FOM.
Brexit would never have won if there had been a common sense derogation over FOM.
Your last sentence is spot on, and the EU have a lot of responsibility over their inflexibility which led to Brexit
You mean the incompetence of the governments you supported which did nothing about the key driver of FOM - entitlement to jobs and benefits simply by residence, without further qualification. Absolutely classic example of a Brexiter blaming the EU for his own government's incompetence.
Cameron did everything to seek the EU to compromise and no compromise came
I voted remain, and your inability to agree with the view the EU's stubborn attitude is not shared by many others
Other EU members have no problem with residence/ebnefits restrictions. Ergo your (then) favoured governments' sloth, incompetence and malicious blaming of the EU.
Residence/benefits restrictions do next to nothing in curbing immigration of this type. The problem was low skilled workers.
The reality is that every time France or Germsny needed to EU to bend for them, it was done. When the UK asked, it was met with a brick wall. Just look at the Spitzenkandidat issue when the UK didn't like the one "chosen" vs when Germany didn't.
Johnson is done if that's the public reaction, he's no longer "one of the lads", he's a spineless coward, bully and a liar. He has nothing left.
Labour should be absolutely storming in any GE, I really should consider chucking a quid on a landslide
They should. But they arent. They are a few ahead. Even Blair would have been only just into landslide without Scotland and he started many seats closer
If you look at Green + LD + Labour they are way ahead of the Tories. That's where Blair was pulling the numbers from when he polled so far ahead.
Recall that in 1997 he only achieved 43%, so not far off where Labour are now and the Tories got 29%. Not far off where they are now.
We are in the range of landslide, Labour just have more seats to make up + Scotland as you said (although with being second they'll probably win 7+ seats there anyway)
LBC's Matthew Thompson on Twitter: Well. What was previously a joyous atmosphere turns to a chorus of boos and whistles as Boris and Carrie Johnson walk up the steps into St Paul’s Cathedral.
"They want to touch him, they love Boris".
He's finished.
Sounds like a mix of booing and cheering.
About what you'd expect from any PM, especially a controversial Tory one.
If everyone who was ever booed was "finished" then we'd never have a Tory government.
No; it's such a strange occasion to even boo anyone. Remember this will be wall to wall Royalists, ergo the elderly/Tory in particular, with a few tourists without any hound in the fight.
Not any stranger than the London Olympics when Osborne was booed. Some people will always boo politicians.
And it won't be all elderly/Tory or Royalists, plenty of people will be there for the occasion and because its a day out, and they live locally. I'm a republican but if we lived locally, I'd probably take the girls to see it, because its something unique and different just as I went to see the Olympic Torch relay when it came to town for the same reason.
LBC's Matthew Thompson on Twitter: Well. What was previously a joyous atmosphere turns to a chorus of boos and whistles as Boris and Carrie Johnson walk up the steps into St Paul’s Cathedral.
"They want to touch him, they love Boris".
He's finished.
Sounds like a mix of booing and cheering.
About what you'd expect from any PM, especially a controversial Tory one.
If everyone who was ever booed was "finished" then we'd never have a Tory government.
No; it's such a strange occasion to even boo anyone. Remember this will be wall to wall Royalists, ergo the elderly/Tory in particular, with a few tourists without any hound in the fight.
We need a camera on the crowd to know for sure. If there's a section of protesters who are there just to boo the PM then fine, it doesn't tell us anything. If it's 50-something new grandmothers with little union flags there to see the royals, then Boris is heading for a nasty (and well-deserved) crunch.
Good point. No hint of anyone reporting a cadre of protesters, that I c an see, so far.
“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death. https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752
Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.
Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?
I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.
We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.
Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.
Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.
It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.
I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.
I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.
Lets get on with it.
However what we do re NI I have no idea.
I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.
Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.
Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.
Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.
Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions
Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so
Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.
Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .
Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic
And for now, he's right to do so. Noise and toxicity beat raw numbers.
I stick by my calendar proposed on Brexit Day;
The 2024 rewrite of the TCA (which has to happen) will actually promote trade and co-operation at the expense of the UK giving up some of the more hypothetical freedoms.
2029 will be EEA in all but name.
2040ish will be the UK choosing to be in the room when decisions are taken.
A generation of withered trade and soured relationships. And all so Boomers with 3 O-Levels could get a different coloured passport and a vacuum cleaner that pumps out useless extra heat.
I suppose those with 3 O levels were to be respected previously when they voted the right way?
Question - does the UK have a designated survivor for public events like the US does? Seems like an awful lot of the UK's senior people are all in one place right now.
We do not, surviving MPs/cabinet would select a PM, crown to next in line thats not wiped out, i assume Andrew would be convinced to pass it, or would take a turn for the worse, sharpish
Isn't the Queen the designated survivor this morning?
She's a home watching it on tv with a cuppa and a packet of hobnobs.
This is a rather pertinent point i had forgotten as im not watching!
She’s still 96 though. It would be interesting to know who’s the highest in the line of succession not to be there today apart from HM and Air Miles. Did Beatrice and Eugenie leave the babies at home?
“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death. https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752
Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.
Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?
I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.
We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.
Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.
Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.
It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.
I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.
I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.
Lets get on with it.
However what we do re NI I have no idea.
I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.
Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.
Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.
Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.
Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions
Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so
Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.
Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .
Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic
Oh, I agree, but they do support much closer regulatory alignment, which means following EU rules and policy. It is the same direction but a slower track.
Following EU rules, but without any say in them, is a recipe for disaster.
Macron would delight in adding a “Screw the British” clause into every single piece of legislation, and direct tough enforcement for minor transgressions - as the French continue to ignore any rules they don’t like.
Absolutely, which is why the logic then is to Rejoin so as to have a say in the rules.
“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death. https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752
Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.
Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?
I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.
We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.
Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.
Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.
It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.
I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.
I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.
Lets get on with it.
However what we do re NI I have no idea.
I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.
Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.
Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.
Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.
Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions
Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so
Remainers: we don't like this one little bit Leavers: STOP SUBVERTING THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE TRAITOR. GET OUT OF THE WAY, SIT DOWN, SHUT UP, AND LET US GET ON WITH THIS Remainers: ... Leavers: WHY AREN'T YOU ADMITTING YOU WANT TO REJOIN?
I don't know anyone who has anything to do with international trade, or with reasonably high education, who doesn't think Leaving was a mistake, and doesn't want to rejoin.
You don’t get out much if you don’t meet well-educated Leavers
On the other hand, you express an underlying truth which I have now been noting for a while. There is a lot of Rejoin sentiment out there, especially on the Left (where it is intense), as soon as Labour reach power (they will try and hide all this until then) it will burst into the open like a nest of spiderlings hatching out. Starmer, if he is PM, will come under immediate, severe pressure to move swiftly closer to the EU
Una popcornio momenta
Sadly, Leon, I can barely get out at all these days. I should have said anyone outside one or two people on boards such as this, to be more accurate.
We are always pleased to have you here OKC, I hope you are keeping well.
Than k you Horse. I'm not sure what I would have done with PB and one or two other similar boards. At least I had the lockdown to give me an early taste of isolation. And Mrs C and I did get to Eldest Granddaughter's birthday lunch yesterday.
I simply have not heard the lib dems state their intention is to rejoin
It's in their Europe policy paper on their website: "At our 2020 autumn conference, Liberal Democrat members agreed to call for: ‘The closest possible alignment between the UK and the EU towards customs union, single market and freedom of movement, including minimising tariff and non-tariff trade barriers, no lowering of environmental, food and animal welfare standards, and the maintenance of strong diplomatic, developmental, defence, security, judicial, educational and scientific cooperation.’ We resolved: ‘to support a longer-term objective of UK membership of the EU at an appropriate future date to be determined by political circumstances, subject to public assent, market and trade conditions and acceptable negotiated terms’."
The policy seems to be (1) initially, improve the currently adversarial UK-EU relationship; (2) work towards Single Market membership; (3) work on "maximising public support for eventual UK membership of the EU". So 'rejoin' isn't something that is an immediate aim but the party seems pretty clear that that's where they'd like to be in the long term if they can convince the general public that it's a good idea.
Seems pretty democratic to me.
It's perfectly democratic, but it is something that makes any of us much more hesitant about abandoning the Tories.
Question - does the UK have a designated survivor for public events like the US does? Seems like an awful lot of the UK's senior people are all in one place right now.
Randy Andy isn't there...
The mini Meghans have priority over him. la reine est morte, vive la reine lilibet!
“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death. https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752
Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.
Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?
I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.
We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.
Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.
Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.
It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.
I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.
I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.
Lets get on with it.
However what we do re NI I have no idea.
I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.
Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.
Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.
Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.
Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions
Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so
Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.
Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .
Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic
Agree. The tricky questions are: What about EEA/EFTA and under a non Boris government would the EU be more open to flexible negotiation about SM and derogation from FOM.
Brexit would never have won if there had been a common sense derogation over FOM.
Your last sentence is spot on, and the EU have a lot of responsibility over their inflexibility which led to Brexit
You mean the incompetence of the governments you supported which did nothing about the key driver of FOM - entitlement to jobs and benefits simply by residence, without further qualification. Absolutely classic example of a Brexiter blaming the EU for his own government's incompetence.
Cameron did everything to seek the EU to compromise and no compromise came
I voted remain, and your inability to agree with the view the EU's stubborn attitude is not shared by many others
Other EU members have no problem with residence/ebnefits restrictions. Ergo your (then) favoured governments' sloth, incompetence and malicious blaming of the EU.
Residence/benefits restrictions do next to nothing in curbing immigration of this type. The problem was low skilled workers.
The reality is that every time France or Germsny needed to EU to bend for them, it was done. When the UK asked, it was met with a brick wall. Just look at the Spitzenkandidat issue when the UK didn't like the one "chosen" vs when Germany didn't.
To be fair to the EU, Cameron went to them seeking a “renegotiation” having already sworn that he would never campaign for Leave, even as he reassured them that Remain would win, under him
Of course they gave him fuck all because he approached them from the most ludicrously self-handicapping position conceivable. “Whatever you give me will be good enough”
LBC's Matthew Thompson on Twitter: Well. What was previously a joyous atmosphere turns to a chorus of boos and whistles as Boris and Carrie Johnson walk up the steps into St Paul’s Cathedral.
"They want to touch him, they love Boris".
He's finished.
They’re shouting “buvez” in honour of his partying skills.
LBC's Matthew Thompson on Twitter: Well. What was previously a joyous atmosphere turns to a chorus of boos and whistles as Boris and Carrie Johnson walk up the steps into St Paul’s Cathedral.
“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death. https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752
Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.
Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?
I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.
We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.
Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.
Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.
It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.
I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.
I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.
Lets get on with it.
However what we do re NI I have no idea.
I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.
Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.
Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.
Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.
Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions
Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so
Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.
Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .
Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic
And for now, he's right to do so. Noise and toxicity beat raw numbers.
I stick by my calendar proposed on Brexit Day;
The 2024 rewrite of the TCA (which has to happen) will actually promote trade and co-operation at the expense of the UK giving up some of the more hypothetical freedoms.
2029 will be EEA in all but name.
2040ish will be the UK choosing to be in the room when decisions are taken.
A generation of withered trade and soured relationships. And all so Boomers with 3 O-Levels could get a different coloured passport and a vacuum cleaner that pumps out useless extra heat.
By 2040, the EU will be less than a third of our exports. The idea we will give up FTAs with places more rapidly growing to go back in is silly.
So, from the point of having NZ 45/7 before lunch yesterday, we reach the half way point in the match with a lead of NINE runs. Has any team even been so good at taking defeat from the jaws of victory?
Oh, and Lord’s management, no need to worry about those unsold Day 4 tickets. Be more worried about all the Day 3 tickets you’re going to have to refund.
Johnson is done if that's the public reaction, he's no longer "one of the lads", he's a spineless coward, bully and a liar. He has nothing left.
Labour should be absolutely storming in any GE, I really should consider chucking a quid on a landslide
They should. But they arent. They are a few ahead. Even Blair would have been only just into landslide without Scotland and he started many seats closer
If you look at Green + LD + Labour they are way ahead of the Tories. That's where Blair was pulling the numbers from when he polled so far ahead.
Recall that in 1997 he only achieved 43%, so not far off where Labour are now and the Tories got 29%. Not far off where they are now.
We are in the range of landslide, Labour just have more seats to make up + Scotland as you said (although with being second they'll probably win 7+ seats there anyway)
They won 56 in Scotland in 1997, so take ca 100 off the majority and Blairs majority would have been 79, borderline landslide. Blair also led by up to 40% mid term in the polling and was popular. We are nowhere near the range of landslide, we are not in the realms of majoriry reliably.
Question - does the UK have a designated survivor for public events like the US does? Seems like an awful lot of the UK's senior people are all in one place right now.
“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death. https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752
Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.
Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?
I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.
We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.
Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.
Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.
It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.
I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.
I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.
Lets get on with it.
However what we do re NI I have no idea.
I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.
Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.
Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.
Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.
Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions
Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so
Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.
Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .
Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic
And for now, he's right to do so. Noise and toxicity beat raw numbers.
I stick by my calendar proposed on Brexit Day;
The 2024 rewrite of the TCA (which has to happen) will actually promote trade and co-operation at the expense of the UK giving up some of the more hypothetical freedoms.
2029 will be EEA in all but name.
2040ish will be the UK choosing to be in the room when decisions are taken.
A generation of withered trade and soured relationships. And all so Boomers with 3 O-Levels could get a different coloured passport and a vacuum cleaner that pumps out useless extra heat.
I suppose those with 3 O levels were to be respected previously when they voted the right way?
Well I think if we had a less in-work and pensioner poverty they might not have lashed out in such a self-defeating way. If they voted to not be poorer that's all very nice but it's the passports and vacuum cleaners they'll be getting instead.
LBC's Matthew Thompson on Twitter: Well. What was previously a joyous atmosphere turns to a chorus of boos and whistles as Boris and Carrie Johnson walk up the steps into St Paul’s Cathedral.
"They want to touch him, they love Boris".
He's finished.
Actually Sky kept playing his reception and concluded he received applause and boos much in equal number
I remember when Tim made a song and dance about George Osborne getting booed at the London Olympics.
He remained Chancellor for four more years, including helping the Tories gain seats and win an overall majority three years after the booing.
Boris should go, but boos are nothing new or newsworthy.
No, the Olympics were blatantly political. This is a specifically Royal event. Like breaking wind at an Easter service in Cantderbury Cathedral, only it's intentional. Utterly intrusive.
How very HYUFDian of you to genuflect to the Royals so much, but much of the country is not the same.
Aside from on sombre Remembrance services, there are people who will go where the politicians are for the express intention of booing them disregarding whatever the politicians themselves are there for. Some people there might be protestors there solely to do this.
Claiming that this is a Royal event so only Royalists will be present is like saying that at Tory Conference only Tories will be present so boos as people enter Conference would be unusual. The last time I went to Tory Conference was in 2016 but every time I went you entered through a wall of boos and being spat at until you were past security.
“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death. https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752
Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.
Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?
I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.
We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.
Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.
Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.
It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.
I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.
I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.
Lets get on with it.
However what we do re NI I have no idea.
I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.
Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.
Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.
Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.
Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions
Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so
Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.
Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .
Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic
And for now, he's right to do so. Noise and toxicity beat raw numbers.
I stick by my calendar proposed on Brexit Day;
The 2024 rewrite of the TCA (which has to happen) will actually promote trade and co-operation at the expense of the UK giving up some of the more hypothetical freedoms.
2029 will be EEA in all but name.
2040ish will be the UK choosing to be in the room when decisions are taken.
A generation of withered trade and soured relationships. And all so Boomers with 3 O-Levels could get a different coloured passport and a vacuum cleaner that pumps out useless extra heat.
I suppose those with 3 O levels were to be respected previously when they voted the right way?
Well I think if we had a less in-work and pensioner poverty they might not have lashed out in such a self-defeating way. If they voted to not be poorer that's all very nice but it's the passports and vacuum cleaners they'll be getting instead.
“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death. https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752
Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.
Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?
I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.
We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.
Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.
Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.
It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.
I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.
I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.
Lets get on with it.
However what we do re NI I have no idea.
I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.
Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.
Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.
Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.
Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions
Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so
Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.
Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .
Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic
And for now, he's right to do so. Noise and toxicity beat raw numbers.
I stick by my calendar proposed on Brexit Day;
The 2024 rewrite of the TCA (which has to happen) will actually promote trade and co-operation at the expense of the UK giving up some of the more hypothetical freedoms.
2029 will be EEA in all but name.
2040ish will be the UK choosing to be in the room when decisions are taken.
A generation of withered trade and soured relationships. And all so Boomers with 3 O-Levels could get a different coloured passport and a vacuum cleaner that pumps out useless extra heat.
I suppose those with 3 O levels were to be respected previously when they voted the right way?
It's the contempt Remainers can't stop. "Anyone that disagrees with me is old and thick". They are completely unable to have a level headed conversation about it.
And in most discussions they can't even make a single concession in the argument. If you point out the predictions of the Remain campaign all turned out to be flat out lies, they will twist and turn trying to pretend otherwise. At best they will try to say the predictions were from evil Tories, rather ignoring the Labour leader of the Remain campaign repeating them everywhere.
LBC's Matthew Thompson on Twitter: Well. What was previously a joyous atmosphere turns to a chorus of boos and whistles as Boris and Carrie Johnson walk up the steps into St Paul’s Cathedral.
"They want to touch him, they love Boris".
He's finished.
Actually Sky kept playing his reception and concluded he received applause and boos much in equal number
I remember when Tim made a song and dance about George Osborne getting booed at the London Olympics.
He remained Chancellor for four more years, including helping the Tories gain seats and win an overall majority three years after the booing.
Boris should go, but boos are nothing new or newsworthy.
No, the Olympics were blatantly political. This is a specifically Royal event. Like breaking wind at an Easter service in Cantderbury Cathedral, only it's intentional. Utterly intrusive.
How very HYUFDian of you to genuflect to the Royals so much, but much of the country is not the same.
Aside from on sombre Remembrance services, there are people who will go where the politicians are for the express intention of booing them disregarding whatever the politicians themselves are there for. Some people there might be protestors there solely to do this.
Claiming that this is a Royal event so only Royalists will be present is like saying that at Tory Conference only Tories will be present so boos as people enter Conference would be unusual. The last time I went to Tory Conference was in 2016 but every time I went you entered through a wall of boos and being spat at until you were past security.
There is a difference between holding a torch for the royals per se, and observing that behaviour in others.
One difference is that people behave differently outside a Tory conference and outside a Royal jubilee event. They don't normally mix the two.
Question - does the UK have a designated survivor for public events like the US does? Seems like an awful lot of the UK's senior people are all in one place right now.
Randy Andy isn't there...
The mini Meghans have priority over him. la reine est morte, vive la reine lilibet!
“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death. https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752
Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.
Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?
I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.
We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.
Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.
Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.
It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.
I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.
I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.
Lets get on with it.
However what we do re NI I have no idea.
I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.
Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.
Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.
Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.
Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions
Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so
Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.
Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .
Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic
And for now, he's right to do so. Noise and toxicity beat raw numbers.
I stick by my calendar proposed on Brexit Day;
The 2024 rewrite of the TCA (which has to happen) will actually promote trade and co-operation at the expense of the UK giving up some of the more hypothetical freedoms.
2029 will be EEA in all but name.
2040ish will be the UK choosing to be in the room when decisions are taken.
A generation of withered trade and soured relationships. And all so Boomers with 3 O-Levels could get a different coloured passport and a vacuum cleaner that pumps out useless extra heat.
I suppose those with 3 O levels were to be respected previously when they voted the right way?
Well I think if we had a less in-work and pensioner poverty they might not have lashed out in such a self-defeating way. If they voted to not be poorer that's all very nice but it's the passports and vacuum cleaners they'll be getting instead.
If they can afford them.
I'm sure if they gave up their avocado toast they could. Did you know you can eat for 30p a day?
There's a suggestion going around that Ukrainian forces who were supposed to have withdrawn from Severodonetsk have instead trapped the Russians there. Would be a very interesting move and apparently there are the same network of underground tunnels as we saw in Mariupol.
Possibly too good to be true. However: the Ukrainians have had a couple of months to prepare, and the experience of Mariupol (where they had much less time) shows they are very good at defensive strategies.
In the meantime, the Russians just seem to be going for a dumb throw-men-and-material-at-the-problem strategy.
But sometimes dumb wins...
Evenually, every army runs out of men and materiel, certainly in terms of what it can get to the front lines.
In other news, Ukranians are training in the UK on medium-range rocket-launchers due to be supplied there shortly. The Russians are dragging T-62s out of storage, and trying to keep them working long enough to get somewhere near a front line.
The problem for the Ukranians is that the modern arms are complex and sparse, so the Russian artillery has the advantage, particularly in the Donbas, with Russias short supply lines, and Ukranian ones more exposed.
I think what the Ukranians have done in Severodonetsk is what the Vietcong called "hugging the enemy". The aim is to be so close to the enemy that they cannot use their artillery and airpower, thereby levelling the playing field. At that point morale and local knowledge become decisive.
“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death. https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752
Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.
Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?
I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.
We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.
Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.
Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.
It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.
I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.
I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.
Lets get on with it.
However what we do re NI I have no idea.
I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.
Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.
Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.
Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.
Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions
Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so
Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.
Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .
Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic
Oh, I agree, but they do support much closer regulatory alignment, which means following EU rules and policy. It is the same direction but a slower track.
Following EU rules, but without any say in them, is a recipe for disaster.
Macron would delight in adding a “Screw the British” clause into every single piece of legislation, and direct tough enforcement for minor transgressions - as the French continue to ignore any rules they don’t like.
Absolutely, which is why the logic then is to Rejoin so as to have a say in the rules.
How would we have a say any more than when we were in? Remainers are still unable to give a single example of us winning out over the French-German position (agreed in advance of every EU summit).
“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death. https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752
Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.
Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?
I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.
We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.
Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.
Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.
It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.
I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.
I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.
Lets get on with it.
However what we do re NI I have no idea.
I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.
Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.
Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.
Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.
Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions
Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so
Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.
Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .
Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic
And for now, he's right to do so. Noise and toxicity beat raw numbers.
I stick by my calendar proposed on Brexit Day;
The 2024 rewrite of the TCA (which has to happen) will actually promote trade and co-operation at the expense of the UK giving up some of the more hypothetical freedoms.
2029 will be EEA in all but name.
2040ish will be the UK choosing to be in the room when decisions are taken.
A generation of withered trade and soured relationships. And all so Boomers with 3 O-Levels could get a different coloured passport and a vacuum cleaner that pumps out useless extra heat.
I suppose those with 3 O levels were to be respected previously when they voted the right way?
It's the contempt Remainers can't stop. "Anyone that disagrees with me is old and thick". They are completely unable to have a level headed conversation about it.
And in most discussions they can't even make a single concession in the argument. If you point out the predictions of the Remain campaign all turned out to be flat out lies, they will twist and turn trying to pretend otherwise. At best they will try to say the predictions were from evil Tories, rather ignoring the Labour leader of the Remain campaign repeating them everywhere.
Some of the Remain predictions were flat out lies.
There, happy now? It's really not hard. Sorry if I spoiled your day.
LBC's Matthew Thompson on Twitter: Well. What was previously a joyous atmosphere turns to a chorus of boos and whistles as Boris and Carrie Johnson walk up the steps into St Paul’s Cathedral.
"They want to touch him, they love Boris".
He's finished.
Actually Sky kept playing his reception and concluded he received applause and boos much in equal number
As long as the mob are booing politicians and not the royals then all is well in England.
Robert Lacey on BBC1 earlier remarked that the Prime Minister represents what divides us, while the monarchy represents what unites us.
There's a suggestion going around that Ukrainian forces who were supposed to have withdrawn from Severodonetsk have instead trapped the Russians there. Would be a very interesting move and apparently there are the same network of underground tunnels as we saw in Mariupol.
Possibly too good to be true. However: the Ukrainians have had a couple of months to prepare, and the experience of Mariupol (where they had much less time) shows they are very good at defensive strategies.
In the meantime, the Russians just seem to be going for a dumb throw-men-and-material-at-the-problem strategy.
But sometimes dumb wins...
"Reculer pour mieux sauter" is a long-established tactic, which is why "it ain't over till it's over" is as true of war as of baseball.
“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death. https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752
Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.
Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?
I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.
We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.
Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.
Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.
It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.
I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.
I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.
Lets get on with it.
However what we do re NI I have no idea.
I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.
Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.
Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.
Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.
Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions
Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so
Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.
Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .
Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic
And for now, he's right to do so. Noise and toxicity beat raw numbers.
I stick by my calendar proposed on Brexit Day;
The 2024 rewrite of the TCA (which has to happen) will actually promote trade and co-operation at the expense of the UK giving up some of the more hypothetical freedoms.
2029 will be EEA in all but name.
2040ish will be the UK choosing to be in the room when decisions are taken.
A generation of withered trade and soured relationships. And all so Boomers with 3 O-Levels could get a different coloured passport and a vacuum cleaner that pumps out useless extra heat.
I suppose those with 3 O levels were to be respected previously when they voted the right way?
It's the contempt Remainers can't stop. "Anyone that disagrees with me is old and thick". They are completely unable to have a level headed conversation about it.
And in most discussions they can't even make a single concession in the argument. If you point out the predictions of the Remain campaign all turned out to be flat out lies, they will twist and turn trying to pretend otherwise. At best they will try to say the predictions were from evil Tories, rather ignoring the Labour leader of the Remain campaign repeating them everywhere.
Yes, they exude a fetid stench of sneering and snobbery, the Remainers: they cannot help themselves. The reek always escapes
It’s like Ken Livingstone trying to have a sensible conversation about Jews. Just wait a few minutes. Ah. There it is. Bingo
Boris will apparently read "whatever is true, whatever is honourable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is pleasing, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence and if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things". Which is quite a bold play...
“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death. https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752
Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.
Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?
I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.
We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.
Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.
Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.
It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.
I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.
I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.
Lets get on with it.
However what we do re NI I have no idea.
I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.
Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.
Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.
Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.
Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions
Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so
Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.
Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .
Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic
And for now, he's right to do so. Noise and toxicity beat raw numbers.
I stick by my calendar proposed on Brexit Day;
The 2024 rewrite of the TCA (which has to happen) will actually promote trade and co-operation at the expense of the UK giving up some of the more hypothetical freedoms.
2029 will be EEA in all but name.
2040ish will be the UK choosing to be in the room when decisions are taken.
A generation of withered trade and soured relationships. And all so Boomers with 3 O-Levels could get a different coloured passport and a vacuum cleaner that pumps out useless extra heat.
I suppose those with 3 O levels were to be respected previously when they voted the right way?
It's the contempt Remainers can't stop. "Anyone that disagrees with me is old and thick". They are completely unable to have a level headed conversation about it.
And in most discussions they can't even make a single concession in the argument. If you point out the predictions of the Remain campaign all turned out to be flat out lies, they will twist and turn trying to pretend otherwise. At best they will try to say the predictions were from evil Tories, rather ignoring the Labour leader of the Remain campaign repeating them everywhere.
Some of the Remain predictions were flat out lies.
There, happy now? It's really not hard. Sorry if I spoiled your day.
“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death. https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752
Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.
Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?
I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.
We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.
Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.
Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.
It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.
I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.
I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.
Lets get on with it.
However what we do re NI I have no idea.
I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.
Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.
Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.
Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.
Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions
Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so
Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.
Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .
Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic
And for now, he's right to do so. Noise and toxicity beat raw numbers.
I stick by my calendar proposed on Brexit Day;
The 2024 rewrite of the TCA (which has to happen) will actually promote trade and co-operation at the expense of the UK giving up some of the more hypothetical freedoms.
2029 will be EEA in all but name.
2040ish will be the UK choosing to be in the room when decisions are taken.
A generation of withered trade and soured relationships. And all so Boomers with 3 O-Levels could get a different coloured passport and a vacuum cleaner that pumps out useless extra heat.
I suppose those with 3 O levels were to be respected previously when they voted the right way?
It's the contempt Remainers can't stop. "Anyone that disagrees with me is old and thick". They are completely unable to have a level headed conversation about it.
And in most discussions they can't even make a single concession in the argument. If you point out the predictions of the Remain campaign all turned out to be flat out lies, they will twist and turn trying to pretend otherwise. At best they will try to say the predictions were from evil Tories, rather ignoring the Labour leader of the Remain campaign repeating them everywhere.
Some of the Remain predictions were flat out lies.
There, happy now? It's really not hard. Sorry if I spoiled your day.
Not all lies though. Sir Stuart Rose was quite correct, when he said on the first day of the campaign that leaving the EU will lead to wages going up.
“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death. https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752
Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.
Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?
I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.
We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.
Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.
Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.
It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.
I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.
I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.
Lets get on with it.
However what we do re NI I have no idea.
I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.
Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.
Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.
Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.
Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions
Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so
Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.
Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .
Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic
Oh, I agree, but they do support much closer regulatory alignment, which means following EU rules and policy. It is the same direction but a slower track.
Following EU rules, but without any say in them, is a recipe for disaster.
Macron would delight in adding a “Screw the British” clause into every single piece of legislation, and direct tough enforcement for minor transgressions - as the French continue to ignore any rules they don’t like.
Absolutely, which is why the logic then is to Rejoin so as to have a say in the rules.
How would we have a say any more than when we were in? Remainers are still unable to give a single example of us winning out over the French-German position (agreed in advance of every EU summit).
I don't think you understand the concept of discussion before agreement.
“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death. https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752
Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.
Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?
I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.
We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.
Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.
Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.
It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.
I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.
I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.
Lets get on with it.
However what we do re NI I have no idea.
I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.
Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.
Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.
Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.
Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions
Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so
Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.
Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .
Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic
And for now, he's right to do so. Noise and toxicity beat raw numbers.
I stick by my calendar proposed on Brexit Day;
The 2024 rewrite of the TCA (which has to happen) will actually promote trade and co-operation at the expense of the UK giving up some of the more hypothetical freedoms.
2029 will be EEA in all but name.
2040ish will be the UK choosing to be in the room when decisions are taken.
A generation of withered trade and soured relationships. And all so Boomers with 3 O-Levels could get a different coloured passport and a vacuum cleaner that pumps out useless extra heat.
I suppose those with 3 O levels were to be respected previously when they voted the right way?
It's the contempt Remainers can't stop. "Anyone that disagrees with me is old and thick". They are completely unable to have a level headed conversation about it.
And in most discussions they can't even make a single concession in the argument. If you point out the predictions of the Remain campaign all turned out to be flat out lies, they will twist and turn trying to pretend otherwise. At best they will try to say the predictions were from evil Tories, rather ignoring the Labour leader of the Remain campaign repeating them everywhere.
Some of the Remain predictions were flat out lies.
There, happy now? It's really not hard. Sorry if I spoiled your day.
Ok, great, progress. Can you also accept the facts that employment increased and low skilled wages spiked after Brexit, up until COVID hit?
“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death. https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752
Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.
Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?
I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.
We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.
Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.
Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.
It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.
I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.
I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.
Lets get on with it.
However what we do re NI I have no idea.
I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.
Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.
Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.
Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.
Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions
Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so
Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.
Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .
Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic
Oh, I agree, but they do support much closer regulatory alignment, which means following EU rules and policy. It is the same direction but a slower track.
Following EU rules, but without any say in them, is a recipe for disaster.
Macron would delight in adding a “Screw the British” clause into every single piece of legislation, and direct tough enforcement for minor transgressions - as the French continue to ignore any rules they don’t like.
Absolutely, which is why the logic then is to Rejoin so as to have a say in the rules.
How would we have a say any more than when we were in? Remainers are still unable to give a single example of us winning out over the French-German position (agreed in advance of every EU summit).
I don't think you understand the concept of discussion before agreement.
But the French-German agreement happens before the discussion at every EU summit.
Question - does the UK have a designated survivor for public events like the US does? Seems like an awful lot of the UK's senior people are all in one place right now.
Randy Andy isn't there...
The mini Meghans have priority over him. la reine est morte, vive la reine lilibet!
None of George, Charlotte or Louis are there - and Archie is ahead of Lilibet…..
And as for the Govt…..I don’t think Raab or Patel are there….
Question - does the UK have a designated survivor for public events like the US does? Seems like an awful lot of the UK's senior people are all in one place right now.
“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death. https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752
Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.
Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?
I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.
We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.
Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.
Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.
It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.
I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.
I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.
Lets get on with it.
However what we do re NI I have no idea.
I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.
Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.
Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.
Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.
Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions
Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so
Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.
Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .
Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic
And for now, he's right to do so. Noise and toxicity beat raw numbers.
I stick by my calendar proposed on Brexit Day;
The 2024 rewrite of the TCA (which has to happen) will actually promote trade and co-operation at the expense of the UK giving up some of the more hypothetical freedoms.
2029 will be EEA in all but name.
2040ish will be the UK choosing to be in the room when decisions are taken.
A generation of withered trade and soured relationships. And all so Boomers with 3 O-Levels could get a different coloured passport and a vacuum cleaner that pumps out useless extra heat.
I suppose those with 3 O levels were to be respected previously when they voted the right way?
Well I think if we had a less in-work and pensioner poverty they might not have lashed out in such a self-defeating way. If they voted to not be poorer that's all very nice but it's the passports and vacuum cleaners they'll be getting instead.
If they can afford them.
I'm sure if they gave up their avocado toast they could. Did you know you can eat for 30p a day?
Hmmm.
1 - Don't mention that France 24 is reporting airport chaos across Europe, it will destroy the propaganda. Due to (quote) "staff shortages and passenger increase due to the pandemic", citing Dublin, Schipol and Lisbon.
Remainers predicting we will Rejoin by 2040 should, perhaps, consider how the world has changed in the last six years, since Brexit. They are trying to look forward TWELVE years
Morning all. I think this one is pretty easy. The ideal is obviously to have standard units of measurement that everyone - young and old, right left or centrist, British or burdened by being foreign - understands and uses. That's the point of a measurement system. Clarity and consistency across people and places. So this should be the direction of travel. Going in the opposite direction, whilst not the most terrible thing in the world, is a bit silly. Which is on brand for this government. Everything they do that isn't terrible is a bit silly.
Hardly anyone in the UK uses metric measurements to describe their height.
True. I don't. But the direction of travel on measurement units should be consolidation not the other way. That's my point really.
Question - does the UK have a designated survivor for public events like the US does? Seems like an awful lot of the UK's senior people are all in one place right now.
Randy Andy isn't there...
The mini Meghans have priority over him. la reine est morte, vive la reine lilibet!
LBC's Matthew Thompson on Twitter: Well. What was previously a joyous atmosphere turns to a chorus of boos and whistles as Boris and Carrie Johnson walk up the steps into St Paul’s Cathedral.
"They want to touch him, they love Boris".
He's finished.
Actually Sky kept playing his reception and concluded he received applause and boos much in equal number
I remember when Tim made a song and dance about George Osborne getting booed at the London Olympics.
He remained Chancellor for four more years, including helping the Tories gain seats and win an overall majority three years after the booing.
Boris should go, but boos are nothing new or newsworthy.
No, the Olympics were blatantly political. This is a specifically Royal event. Like breaking wind at an Easter service in Cantderbury Cathedral, only it's intentional. Utterly intrusive.
How very HYUFDian of you to genuflect to the Royals so much, but much of the country is not the same.
Aside from on sombre Remembrance services, there are people who will go where the politicians are for the express intention of booing them disregarding whatever the politicians themselves are there for. Some people there might be protestors there solely to do this.
Claiming that this is a Royal event so only Royalists will be present is like saying that at Tory Conference only Tories will be present so boos as people enter Conference would be unusual. The last time I went to Tory Conference was in 2016 but every time I went you entered through a wall of boos and being spat at until you were past security.
good
Just point us to a royal wedding/jubilee/coronation where the PM has been booed like this. Take your time. And the point is *no one* is booing royalty here so where does anti monarchism come in to it? These people very specifically hate the PM and are prepared to defy convention and good manners to tell the world about it. And I think they have just cost Boris the VONC. Huzzah! Her Majesty's last and most valuable gift to her subjects
“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death. https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752
Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.
Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?
I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.
We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.
Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.
Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.
It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.
I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.
I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.
Lets get on with it.
However what we do re NI I have no idea.
I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.
Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.
Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.
Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.
Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions
Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so
Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.
Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .
Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic
And for now, he's right to do so. Noise and toxicity beat raw numbers.
I stick by my calendar proposed on Brexit Day;
The 2024 rewrite of the TCA (which has to happen) will actually promote trade and co-operation at the expense of the UK giving up some of the more hypothetical freedoms.
2029 will be EEA in all but name.
2040ish will be the UK choosing to be in the room when decisions are taken.
A generation of withered trade and soured relationships. And all so Boomers with 3 O-Levels could get a different coloured passport and a vacuum cleaner that pumps out useless extra heat.
I suppose those with 3 O levels were to be respected previously when they voted the right way?
It's the contempt Remainers can't stop. "Anyone that disagrees with me is old and thick". They are completely unable to have a level headed conversation about it.
And in most discussions they can't even make a single concession in the argument. If you point out the predictions of the Remain campaign all turned out to be flat out lies, they will twist and turn trying to pretend otherwise. At best they will try to say the predictions were from evil Tories, rather ignoring the Labour leader of the Remain campaign repeating them everywhere.
Some of the Remain predictions were flat out lies.
There, happy now? It's really not hard. Sorry if I spoiled your day.
Ok, great, progress. Can you also accept the facts that employment increased and low skilled wages spiked after Brexit, up until COVID hit?
No. I've repeatedly asked for evidence for that and I don't think there is any. I've been met with vague handwaving anecdotes (my cousin's in the building trade, and he says that.. etc) The time between Brexit and Covid was as good as zero.
For me, like many Leavers, it was the Lisbon Treaty that made me decide to leave once it was clear that no meaningful renegotiation was possible.
Amongst many things that awful treaty did, as a nakedly transparent rehash of the EU Constitution, it gave the EU legal identity so it could sign treaties in its own name, without reference to its member nations, created a president and high commissioner for foreign affairs, drove a huge extension in QMV voting, and enshrined the Charter of Fundamental Rights into EU law. This was one of the most potent drivers for me as it made rights judicable by the ECJ which led to them demanding the UK review its policy of not giving suffrage to prisoners.
This was then exacerbated by the agenda laid down by the new President Juncker who wanted to go even further and laid out a vision of EU social and fiscal union on top. A man who Cameron tried to stop and failed to stop.
No. No No No.
If Cameron had managed to achieve what he'd laid out in his Bloomberg Speech in 2013 it might have been different, but it wasn't.
I won't vote for any party that wants to take the UK back into that.
“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death. https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752
Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.
Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?
I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.
We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.
Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.
Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.
It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.
I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.
I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.
Lets get on with it.
However what we do re NI I have no idea.
I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.
Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.
Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.
Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.
Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions
Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so
Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.
Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .
Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic
Oh, I agree, but they do support much closer regulatory alignment, which means following EU rules and policy. It is the same direction but a slower track.
Following EU rules, but without any say in them, is a recipe for disaster.
Macron would delight in adding a “Screw the British” clause into every single piece of legislation, and direct tough enforcement for minor transgressions - as the French continue to ignore any rules they don’t like.
Absolutely, which is why the logic then is to Rejoin so as to have a say in the rules.
How would we have a say any more than when we were in? Remainers are still unable to give a single example of us winning out over the French-German position (agreed in advance of every EU summit).
I don't think you understand the concept of discussion before agreement.
But the French-German agreement happens before the discussion at every EU summit.
Not just them, but increasingly Eurozone nations were having pre-summit discussions to reach agreements - and of course they carried a QMV majority between them too.
The reality is that with QMV the UK could be ignored within the EU on almost everything post-Lisbon. If anyone actually cared about taking the UK to "the centre of Europe" as Blair used to claim that may have been different, but that would involve the Euro, Schengen, the whole shebang.
A semi-divorced half-interested Britain as we were from Maastricht to Brexit was unstable and inappropriate. Finalising the divorce may have been traumatic for some, but it was the right decision.
… Ukraine, the pandemic, and related matters are all contributing factors. But Brexit runs through almost all these developments like a stick of rock. Brexit has reduced the ability of airline companies to recruit baggage handlers and airport staff. Brexit paperwork continually slows down traffic at Dover and other ports.
Brexit has increased export costs for small businesses and larger companies. The prospect of further Brexit tariffs is one reason why Jaguar Land Rover is talking about shifting battery production to Slovakia. The UK government’s sabre-rattling about the Northern Ireland Protocol has increased pressure on the pound by deterring investors.
… there are certain aspects of our national experience that are entirely related to Brexit, and yet no one wants to mention them.
… Brexit is unsayable to the Johnson cabal and the Tory Party. Real world problems cannot be spoken about by a Vote Leave government that is more concerned with its own salvation than the real world, and a party hollowed out by a rightwing takeover that has transformed support for Brexit into the lodestone of what it means to be a Tory or even a loyal citizen.
… Brexit problems have become the invisible terrors of which Tories dare not speak… The 2016 referendum was won because Leave campaigners pretended there would be no negative consequences for leaving the European Union. Any seeds of doubt would have threatened the vote, and to some extent their ongoing silence is a continuation of that.
To acknowledge post-Brexit problems now would risk exposing the dishonesty and delusion at the heart of the Brexit project in the first place. It might lead the public to ask unwelcome questions about why these problems are taking place when Brexiteers denied that they would ever happen, and what Brexiters did to prepare for them or plan for them, and what they propose to do now.
…Terrified of falling into the Red Wall Brexit trap, the Labour Party has been almost as silent as the government, focussing on ‘making Brexit work’, without saying how, and referring to - wait for it -’post-Brexit opportunities’ while studiously ignoring post-Brexit negativities.
And how about the UK media? What about the state broadcaster? Can’t they ask the questions that politicians aren’t asking? They could, but with some exceptions, they prefer not to, and don’t draw the dots even when the outline of the picture is obvious.
… a complex and precarious democracy of 67 million people is being asked to shut its eyes to the act of gratuitous self-harm it has inflicted on itself, in order to protect a dishonest government and a clueless political class from ignominy… there are no sunlit uplands waiting for us, only an endless series of crises made so much worse by the problems that we refuse to speak about.
An excellent piece. Before the Brexit vote they conducted a poll among the advertising fraternity and 97% were against Brexit. An internationally successful industry which punched well above its weight and saw itself as outward looking was never going to favour Brexit. There will be some of the brightest and best agencies falling over themselves to get behind a campaign to reintegrate the UK with Europe again. Who the client will be I have no idea at the moment but it's something I'm looking forward to
Putin is turning Africa into a pawn in his war on the west. It would be a terrible indictment of western diplomacy if he was allowed to get away with that. We need to make clear to those countries that we are ready and willing to ship the grain from Ukraine. It is Putin who is blocking it.
If he won't remove the blockade without preconditions he should be seen to own the humanitarian crisis. I hope people across the developing world see it that way and don't fall into a reflex 'blame it on the west' mindset. Pointing out that forcibly deporting thousands of children to be adopted in another country is a form of genocide under the 1948 convention would be a good start.
Question - does the UK have a designated survivor for public events like the US does? Seems like an awful lot of the UK's senior people are all in one place right now.
Randy Andy isn't there...
The mini Meghans have priority over him. la reine est morte, vive la reine lilibet!
None of George, Charlotte or Louis are there - and Archie is ahead of Lilibet…..
And as for the Govt…..I don’t think Raab or Patel are there….
Remainers predicting we will Rejoin by 2040 should, perhaps, consider how the world has changed in the last six years, since Brexit. They are trying to look forward TWELVE years
“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death. https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752
Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.
Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?
I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.
We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.
Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.
Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.
It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.
I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.
I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.
Lets get on with it.
However what we do re NI I have no idea.
I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.
Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.
Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.
Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.
Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions
Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so
Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.
Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .
Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic
And for now, he's right to do so. Noise and toxicity beat raw numbers.
I stick by my calendar proposed on Brexit Day;
The 2024 rewrite of the TCA (which has to happen) will actually promote trade and co-operation at the expense of the UK giving up some of the more hypothetical freedoms.
2029 will be EEA in all but name.
2040ish will be the UK choosing to be in the room when decisions are taken.
A generation of withered trade and soured relationships. And all so Boomers with 3 O-Levels could get a different coloured passport and a vacuum cleaner that pumps out useless extra heat.
I suppose those with 3 O levels were to be respected previously when they voted the right way?
It's the contempt Remainers can't stop. "Anyone that disagrees with me is old and thick". They are completely unable to have a level headed conversation about it.
And in most discussions they can't even make a single concession in the argument. If you point out the predictions of the Remain campaign all turned out to be flat out lies, they will twist and turn trying to pretend otherwise. At best they will try to say the predictions were from evil Tories, rather ignoring the Labour leader of the Remain campaign repeating them everywhere.
Some of the Remain predictions were flat out lies.
There, happy now? It's really not hard. Sorry if I spoiled your day.
LBC's Matthew Thompson on Twitter: Well. What was previously a joyous atmosphere turns to a chorus of boos and whistles as Boris and Carrie Johnson walk up the steps into St Paul’s Cathedral.
"They want to touch him, they love Boris".
He's finished.
Actually Sky kept playing his reception and concluded he received applause and boos much in equal number
As long as the mob are booing politicians and not the royals then all is well in England.
Robert Lacey on BBC1 earlier remarked that the Prime Minister represents what divides us, while the monarchy represents what unites us.
A reasonable description of normality in a multi party democracy with a constitutional monarchy.
Remainers predicting we will Rejoin by 2040 should, perhaps, consider how the world has changed in the last six years, since Brexit. They are trying to look forward TWELVE years
18 years
Quite so. Flatulent brain after a big Georgian lunch
Boris will apparently read "whatever is true, whatever is honourable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is pleasing, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence and if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things". Which is quite a bold play...
Presumably "whatever" will be read in the tones of a sarky, whiny Valley Girl.
“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death. https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752
Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.
Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?
I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.
We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.
Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.
Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.
It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.
I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.
I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.
Lets get on with it.
However what we do re NI I have no idea.
I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.
Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.
Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.
Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.
Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions
Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so
Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.
Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .
Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic
And for now, he's right to do so. Noise and toxicity beat raw numbers.
I stick by my calendar proposed on Brexit Day;
The 2024 rewrite of the TCA (which has to happen) will actually promote trade and co-operation at the expense of the UK giving up some of the more hypothetical freedoms.
2029 will be EEA in all but name.
2040ish will be the UK choosing to be in the room when decisions are taken.
A generation of withered trade and soured relationships. And all so Boomers with 3 O-Levels could get a different coloured passport and a vacuum cleaner that pumps out useless extra heat.
I suppose those with 3 O levels were to be respected previously when they voted the right way?
It's the contempt Remainers can't stop. "Anyone that disagrees with me is old and thick". They are completely unable to have a level headed conversation about it.
And in most discussions they can't even make a single concession in the argument. If you point out the predictions of the Remain campaign all turned out to be flat out lies, they will twist and turn trying to pretend otherwise. At best they will try to say the predictions were from evil Tories, rather ignoring the Labour leader of the Remain campaign repeating them everywhere.
Yes, they exude a fetid stench of sneering and snobbery, the Remainers: they cannot help themselves. The reek always escapes
It’s like Ken Livingstone trying to have a sensible conversation about Jews. Just wait a few minutes. Ah. There it is. Bingo
I remember listening to one Remainer podcast where they had on the lead singer of Elbow as a guest. He was a Remainer (they never would have any Leaver on, obviously) but from a very working class background. And working class in a way that he was still proud of and in touch with his roots, not a "I am so glad I escaped these people" type.
As he talked he framed things with such respect for Leavers (clearly knowing a lot of them), often taking a "yes they are right on this bit, but I think this other thing is more important". I remember thinking "thank God this guy wasn't in charge of StrongerIn". The main panel were all clearly very uncomfortable and skirted by any criticism of the EU very quickly, however.
“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death. https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752
Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.
Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?
I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.
We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.
Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.
Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.
It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.
I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.
I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.
Lets get on with it.
However what we do re NI I have no idea.
I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.
Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.
Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.
Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.
Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions
Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so
Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.
Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .
Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic
And for now, he's right to do so. Noise and toxicity beat raw numbers.
I stick by my calendar proposed on Brexit Day;
The 2024 rewrite of the TCA (which has to happen) will actually promote trade and co-operation at the expense of the UK giving up some of the more hypothetical freedoms.
2029 will be EEA in all but name.
2040ish will be the UK choosing to be in the room when decisions are taken.
A generation of withered trade and soured relationships. And all so Boomers with 3 O-Levels could get a different coloured passport and a vacuum cleaner that pumps out useless extra heat.
I suppose those with 3 O levels were to be respected previously when they voted the right way?
Well I think if we had a less in-work and pensioner poverty they might not have lashed out in such a self-defeating way. If they voted to not be poorer that's all very nice but it's the passports and vacuum cleaners they'll be getting instead.
If they can afford them.
I'm sure if they gave up their avocado toast they could. Did you know you can eat for 30p a day?
Hmmm.
1 - Don't mention that France 24 is reporting airport chaos across Europe, it will destroy the propaganda. Due to (quote) "staff shortages and passenger increase due to the pandemic", citing Dublin, Schipol and Lisbon.
3 - Who claimed that you could eat for 30p a day? My MP Lee Anderson certainly did not.
Airlines and airports are the same everywhere at the moment. It’s a worldwide problem, they all laid off too many staff - many with specific skills, qualifications and clearances - during the pandemic, and now can’t get enough to come back as normality returns.
Boris will apparently read "whatever is true, whatever is honourable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is pleasing, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence and if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things". Which is quite a bold play...
Slow handclap, please, if anyone in the congregation is reading this
“Brexit was a mistake which is causing harm but we shouldn’t do anything to reverse it” is a bizarre way of thinking. It’s like mishandling a knife and then resolving to let yourself bleed to death. https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1532630897173962752
Not really. Some divorces are mistakes and people find out the grass is not greener. For that group it would still be the exception rather than the rule to get back together with the ex.
Perhaps we should try and tempt the EU with friends with benefits instead of a second marriage or bitter enemies bitching about each other?
I think that, in time, the UK and the EU will adopt a closer and more cooperative relationship with each other but we'll never go back to full EU membership. You can't ever put the genie wholly back in the box.
We had decades of friction over our membership for very good reasons and I think both sides recognise it was the wrong model for both the EU and the UK.
Agree with that although would replace wrong with imperfect. The Ukraine war may actually open up possibilities for different levels of involvement with the EU and a strong UK government would be exploring what possibilities an outside EU satellite group could develop.
Of course, if you look at the original Vote Leave manifesto (and I'm not trying to trigger anyone here) but 'create a new European institutional architecture' was in there.
It's certainly what I voted for, and would consider supporting today too.
I think that's a bit naïve, CR. Anything that puts the UK back in the EU's orbit is, IMO, unacceptable. I have no issue with co-operation with the EU as long as it's a very tightly defined set of rules with the basis of co-operation set out in separate agreements or treaties rather than one overall and undefined relationship based on "trust" or relying on the other partner to act favourably. No more freebies, no more favours.
I agree with that post. I am a remainer, but we have left and so what you describe is the way forward. I wish both sides would get on with it. In my opinion there are hundreds of trivial to complex agreements that have to be made to make all our lives better. Red tape on trade, and a particular bug bear of mine, is red tape on temporary exports, and then we trivial things, but which have significant real effects on people, like the pet passport fiasco and the 90 day in 180 day travel issue.
Lets get on with it.
However what we do re NI I have no idea.
I think that broadly will be the Labour, and LD, approach to Brexit at the next election To "do away with unnessecary Brexit red tape", the former tacitly, and the latter expicitly to ultimate Rejoin.
Red Wall Tory MPs would be over the moon if Labour takes that approach.
Recent polling on Brexit as a mistake and the 58% voting Lab/LD/Green suggests other wise.
Doubling down on Brexit culture wars is not the votewinner that you think.
Thinking it was a mistake but wanting to reverse it are two different questions
Furthermore, why are those who want to rejoin not standing fair and square and honestly saying so
Oh, I think the LD policy is honestly stated. To have a closer relationship inclusing rejoining the SM with the long term aim of Rejoin once opinion has moved.
Labours is less transparent, but clearly a move to closer alignment, which in practice means following EU regulations .
Absolutely not. Labour has no intention of joining the EU short or long term under Starmer. The issue is toxic
And for now, he's right to do so. Noise and toxicity beat raw numbers.
I stick by my calendar proposed on Brexit Day;
The 2024 rewrite of the TCA (which has to happen) will actually promote trade and co-operation at the expense of the UK giving up some of the more hypothetical freedoms.
2029 will be EEA in all but name.
2040ish will be the UK choosing to be in the room when decisions are taken.
A generation of withered trade and soured relationships. And all so Boomers with 3 O-Levels could get a different coloured passport and a vacuum cleaner that pumps out useless extra heat.
I suppose those with 3 O levels were to be respected previously when they voted the right way?
Well I think if we had a less in-work and pensioner poverty they might not have lashed out in such a self-defeating way. If they voted to not be poorer that's all very nice but it's the passports and vacuum cleaners they'll be getting instead.
If they can afford them.
I'm sure if they gave up their avocado toast they could. Did you know you can eat for 30p a day?
Hmmm.
1 - Don't mention that France 24 is reporting airport chaos across Europe, it will destroy the propaganda. Due to (quote) "staff shortages and passenger increase due to the pandemic", citing Dublin, Schipol and Lisbon.
There's a suggestion going around that Ukrainian forces who were supposed to have withdrawn from Severodonetsk have instead trapped the Russians there. Would be a very interesting move and apparently there are the same network of underground tunnels as we saw in Mariupol.
Possibly too good to be true. However: the Ukrainians have had a couple of months to prepare, and the experience of Mariupol (where they had much less time) shows they are very good at defensive strategies.
In the meantime, the Russians just seem to be going for a dumb throw-men-and-material-at-the-problem strategy.
But sometimes dumb wins...
Evenually, every army runs out of men and materiel, certainly in terms of what it can get to the front lines.
In other news, Ukranians are training in the UK on medium-range rocket-launchers due to be supplied there shortly. The Russians are dragging T-62s out of storage, and trying to keep them working long enough to get somewhere near a front line.
The problem for the Ukranians is that the modern arms are complex and sparse, so the Russian artillery has the advantage, particularly in the Donbas, with Russias short supply lines, and Ukranian ones more exposed.
I think what the Ukranians have done in Severodonetsk is what the Vietcong called "hugging the enemy". The aim is to be so close to the enemy that they cannot use their artillery and airpower, thereby levelling the playing field. At that point morale and local knowledge become decisive.
I'm thinking that the scarcest resource at present is possibly competent Russian soldiers. Putin will run out of meat before he breaks the Ukrainian sausage machine.
In WW2 the numbers of soldiers were in the millions in this theatre. I've been listening to a video about the WW2 battles in the Crimea this morning, because I was too asleep to stop Youtube.
Comments
About what you'd expect from any PM, especially a controversial Tory one.
If everyone who was ever booed was "finished" then we'd never have a Tory government.
By 2029 it's impossible to say what's going to happen. For all we know Russia has rolled it's tanks through Poland and we've all been vapourised by Russian nukes.
Macron would delight in adding a “Screw the British” clause into every single piece of legislation, and direct tough enforcement for minor transgressions - as the French continue to ignore any rules they don’t like.
In the meantime, the Russians just seem to be going for a dumb throw-men-and-material-at-the-problem strategy.
But sometimes dumb wins...
He remained Chancellor for four more years, including helping the Tories gain seats and win an overall majority three years after the booing.
Boris should go, but boos are nothing new or newsworthy.
I voted remain, and your inability to agree with the view the EU's stubborn attitude is not shared by many others
Labour should be absolutely storming in any GE, I really should consider chucking a quid on a landslide
@DPJHodges
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12m
It's not exactly Ceausescu on the balcony. But Tory MPs will have noticed the boos for Boris. London crowd yes, but a crowd primarily made up of royal watchers.
The frustrating thing for me as an England supporter is that every time this batting line-up is put under pressure they cannot withstand it.
If only we knew someone who used to be able to do that.
In other news, Ukranians are training in the UK on medium-range rocket-launchers due to be supplied there shortly. The Russians are dragging T-62s out of storage, and trying to keep them working long enough to get somewhere near a front line.
If it's 50-something new grandmothers with little union flags there to see the royals, then Boris is heading for a nasty (and well-deserved) crunch.
She's a home watching it on tv with a cuppa and a packet of hobnobs.
Crafty lady.
The reality is that every time France or Germsny needed to EU to bend for them, it was done. When the UK asked, it was met with a brick wall. Just look at the Spitzenkandidat issue when the UK didn't like the one "chosen" vs when Germany didn't.
Recall that in 1997 he only achieved 43%, so not far off where Labour are now and the Tories got 29%. Not far off where they are now.
We are in the range of landslide, Labour just have more seats to make up + Scotland as you said (although with being second they'll probably win 7+ seats there anyway)
And it won't be all elderly/Tory or Royalists, plenty of people will be there for the occasion and because its a day out, and they live locally. I'm a republican but if we lived locally, I'd probably take the girls to see it, because its something unique and different just as I went to see the Olympic Torch relay when it came to town for the same reason.
https://twitter.com/vicderbyshire/status/1532660093489119233
And Mrs C and I did get to Eldest Granddaughter's birthday lunch yesterday.
Of course they gave him fuck all because he approached them from the most ludicrously self-handicapping position conceivable. “Whatever you give me will be good enough”
Sadly, for him, it was not good enough
It is on BBC but surprisingly not Sky
https://twitter.com/vicderbyshire/status/1532660093489119233
"Erm, no, they're saying Boo-ris! Boo-ris!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Kpb8eu1pEY
Oh, and Lord’s management, no need to worry about those unsold Day 4 tickets. Be more worried about all the Day 3 tickets you’re going to have to refund.
We are nowhere near the range of landslide, we are not in the realms of majoriry reliably.
If they voted to not be poorer that's all very nice but it's the passports and vacuum cleaners they'll be getting instead.
Aside from on sombre Remembrance services, there are people who will go where the politicians are for the express intention of booing them disregarding whatever the politicians themselves are there for. Some people there might be protestors there solely to do this.
Claiming that this is a Royal event so only Royalists will be present is like saying that at Tory Conference only Tories will be present so boos as people enter Conference would be unusual. The last time I went to Tory Conference was in 2016 but every time I went you entered through a wall of boos and being spat at until you were past security.
And in most discussions they can't even make a single concession in the argument. If you point out the predictions of the Remain campaign all turned out to be flat out lies, they will twist and turn trying to pretend otherwise. At best they will try to say the predictions were from evil Tories, rather ignoring the Labour leader of the Remain campaign repeating them everywhere.
One difference is that people behave differently outside a Tory conference and outside a Royal jubilee event. They don't normally mix the two.
I think what the Ukranians have done in Severodonetsk is what the Vietcong called "hugging the enemy". The aim is to be so close to the enemy that they cannot use their artillery and airpower, thereby levelling the playing field. At that point morale and local knowledge become decisive.
There, happy now? It's really not hard. Sorry if I spoiled your day.
It’s like Ken Livingstone trying to have a sensible conversation about Jews. Just wait a few minutes. Ah. There it is. Bingo
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/624/cpsprodpb/vivo/live/images/2022/6/3/7cf90858-a1d9-4ff9-a927-cb8b0178cc98.png
Although perhaps the most disturbing comparison is Priti Patel as a toned-down Zara Tindall...
And as for the Govt…..I don’t think Raab or Patel are there….
I have no interest in seeing us back in the EU, we've left, fine. But the current arrangement is not working
1 - Don't mention that France 24 is reporting airport chaos across Europe, it will destroy the propaganda. Due to (quote) "staff shortages and passenger increase due to the pandemic", citing Dublin, Schipol and Lisbon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMelspGa5Gk
2 - Interesting comments.
3 - Who claimed that you could eat for 30p a day? My MP Lee Anderson certainly did not.
Just point us to a royal wedding/jubilee/coronation where the PM has been booed like this. Take your time. And the point is *no one* is booing royalty here so where does anti monarchism come in to it? These people very specifically hate the PM and are prepared to defy convention and good manners to tell the world about it. And I think they have just cost Boris the VONC. Huzzah! Her Majesty's last and most valuable gift to her subjects
The time between Brexit and Covid was as good as zero.
Amongst many things that awful treaty did, as a nakedly transparent rehash of the EU Constitution, it gave the EU legal identity so it could sign treaties in its own name, without reference to its member nations, created a president and high commissioner for foreign affairs, drove a huge extension in QMV voting, and enshrined the Charter of Fundamental Rights into EU law. This was one of the most potent drivers for me as it made rights judicable by the ECJ which led to them demanding the UK review its policy of not giving suffrage to prisoners.
This was then exacerbated by the agenda laid down by the new President Juncker who wanted to go even further and laid out a vision of EU social and fiscal union on top. A man who Cameron tried to stop and failed to stop.
No. No No No.
If Cameron had managed to achieve what he'd laid out in his Bloomberg Speech in 2013 it might have been different, but it wasn't.
I won't vote for any party that wants to take the UK back into that.
The reality is that with QMV the UK could be ignored within the EU on almost everything post-Lisbon. If anyone actually cared about taking the UK to "the centre of Europe" as Blair used to claim that may have been different, but that would involve the Euro, Schengen, the whole shebang.
A semi-divorced half-interested Britain as we were from Maastricht to Brexit was unstable and inappropriate. Finalising the divorce may have been traumatic for some, but it was the right decision.
If he won't remove the blockade without preconditions he should be seen to own the humanitarian crisis. I hope people across the developing world see it that way and don't fall into a reflex 'blame it on the west' mindset. Pointing out that forcibly deporting thousands of children to be adopted in another country is a form of genocide under the 1948 convention would be a good start.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/572613/eu-referendum-decision-by-highest-educational-attainment-uk/
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted
As he talked he framed things with such respect for Leavers (clearly knowing a lot of them), often taking a "yes they are right on this bit, but I think this other thing is more important". I remember thinking "thank God this guy wasn't in charge of StrongerIn". The main panel were all clearly very uncomfortable and skirted by any criticism of the EU very quickly, however.
In WW2 the numbers of soldiers were in the millions in this theatre. I've been listening to a video about the WW2 battles in the Crimea this morning, because I was too asleep to stop Youtube.