These are the numbers that should really panic Number 10 – politicalbetting.com

kinabalu said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

IshmaelZ said:

Dura_Ace said:

Heathener said:

Good piece on Johnson's 'red meat policy' lurch to the right:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/may/30/johnsons-red-meat-policy-proposals-are-telling-of-his-insecurity

"It is a moment often seen in the downward trajectory of embattled prime ministers: a whirl of new policy ideas intended to appeal to voters, but which are in fact more often aimed at placating their own MPs. Boris Johnson is, some would argue, approaching this point.

In recent days Downing Street has briefed in favour of grammar schools and imperial measurements. Earlier weeks saw forays into other Conservative comfort zones, including bashing the EU and talking up fossil fuels.

Such nostalgia politics is routinely promoted by Conservative backbenchers. But it is one of the paradoxes of Tory party politics that the more secure a prime minister is in office, the less they have to indulge these ideas."

If Johnson loses both by-elections he'll have to go Full Tonto and offer a vote on fox hunting.

Our best hope there is: monarchy abolished, SF start taking seats, hold whip hand in minority government. In the meantime there's always the Emerald Isle. Begorrah.

None of the 3 main party leaders now want to abolish the monarchy, nor is it even a priority for SF who just want to be governed by Dublin not London

Oh? Do the LDs want a republic?

Absolutely not, Davey supports our constitutional monarchy

You do know that Davey isn't god don't you. He doesn't decide LD policy.

62% of LD voters also want to keep the monarchy, significantly higher than the 43% of Labour voters who want to keep the monarchy even if not quite as high as the 86% of Conservative voters who want to keep the monarchy

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/05/21/young-britons-are-turning-their-backs-monarchy

It's not a massive issue for me but if perchance there was a Referendum on keeping the monarchy I think I'd vote No. That's a change of heart compared to say 10 years ago.

The reason? Because the institution we have with its pomp and scale is really a hangover from our grand imperial past. It feels out of time now. More than this, it feels absurd and just a touch embarrassing. I get that feeling more than I do the rather heavier sense of it reinforcing white supremacy and class privilege. I also think it infantilizes us a bit. Along with the harmless and positive aspects it does that. Which is not a great thing esp when we have a PM doing the same albeit in a different way.

So, on balance with the monarchy, a la Duncan Bannatyne on Dragons Den - it's a No from me.

YBarddCwsc said:

kle4 said:

bondegezou said:

geoffw said:

Foxy said:

geoffw said:

Nigelb said:

This should be of huge significance. While it’s a compromise to accommodate Russia friendly Hungary, it affects two thirds or more of oil exports to the EU.

EU leaders agree to partial embargo of Russian oil imports
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/30/eu-nears-compromise-agreement-for-partial-ban-on-russian-oil

Nevertheless they will be importing oil from somewhere and the oil market is a global market. Russia can sell its oil elsewhere, just with a bit of inconvenience. An ineffective policy masquerading as 'something' for the something-must-be-done mindset. Gas is different.

One difficulty is that dislike of what Russia is doing is mostly a European and North American thing. Africa, Middle East and Latin America are more mixed in opinion, and India remains pro-Russian.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/30/negative-views-of-russia-mainly-limited-to-western-liberal-democracies-poll-shows?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_b-gdnnews&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1653885569

My enemy's enemy is my friend is the prevailing attitude of "anti-colonialists". They don't care about the rights and wrongs of an unprovoked invasion of a peaceful country.

I think anti-colonialists care deeply about the wrongs of an unprovoked invasion of a peaceful country, specifically their own peaceful country that was invaded without provocation by an imperial power. I think they should care more about the imperialist invasion of Ukraine by Russia, but I can understand if they have a different perspective on the topic than the West.

Maybe, but it does undercut if they should seek to claim a moral high ground on such issues in future, given the lack of overt concern showed. Take a cold practical view, as nations typically do, and dont be surprised if attempts to play the moral card later, about historical wrongs which they want present action over, dont work. Of course we face that outcome ourselves.

Many nations that were once colonies are probably receptive to the Russian argument that the boundaries are wrong.

Their own boundaries are often squiggles on a map, handed down by the former colonial powers.

So, it is not too surprising that Africa, Middle East and Latin America are more mixed in their opinion.

(I don't think boundaries should be changed by war, but it is perfectly reasonable to question whether the existing boundaries of a country are justified).

Sandpit said:

Leon said:

MattW said:

Leon said:

boulay said:

tlg86 said:

Leon said:

An authoritative account of the Disaster of St Denis


https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/may/31/champions-league-paris-final-fiasco-triggers-hillsborough-survivor-trauma?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

What strikes me is the pathetic inertia and complacency of the UEFA and FIFA officials, even when told of the horrible chaos outside the stadium, going on there and then. Shameful

The Olympic Games will be fun in 2024.

Rugby World Cup there first. Saturday will ultimately save France from a worse bashing - they will throw everything at it to ensure nothing like it happens during the World Cup - I imagine the police will be ringing the whole area to avoid the mugging etc rather than focussing onwards on the fans.

If that sort of behaviour happened at the World Cup then it would point to the police/authorities but if they do everything to avoid it they will no doubt say “see, we told you it was those naughty Liverpool fans”.

I see the French sports minister has doubled down blaming it on Liverpool “letting their fans out into the wild”. If that’s the case they seem to have encountered the savages of St Denis on this safari. Who knew that the suburbs of Paris were the “wilds”?

The French public and media are not buying the minister’s feeble diversions, however. He’s getting fierce criticism from Left and Right. The Left are blaming the government and police, the Right are blaming the scum of the suburbs, and the socialists that try to excuse them

Virtually no one - in France - is blaming the Liverpool fans. Across all the newspapers it is “France wins the trophy for incompetence “ or “France is humiliated on the world stage”. They are taking it seriously and it is still front page news

And the Spanish media is filled with similar accounts of chaos and mugging gangs.

Must be quite a shock for Macron and friends that the strategy of "1) Blame the Brits" followed by "2) Lie your heads off" has stopped working.

Even France 24 are calling them out on it.

I think the thing that will hurt is questions about whether this will happen at the 2024 Olympics. eg Will anybody standing in a queue or presenting a ticket at a turnstyle at Paris 2024 be at risk of random assault by Police Officers with Pepper Spray, and how will such police officers be held to account.

Why they built the French national stadium in - literally - the worst, most dangerous part of France - is quite the mystery. I guess they hoped it would boost the area?

Now it’s a source of national humiliation

It made no sense at all to build the stadium where they did, without also clearing the slums actively regenerating the whole area around it.

kinabalu said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

IshmaelZ said:

Dura_Ace said:

Heathener said:

Good piece on Johnson's 'red meat policy' lurch to the right:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/may/30/johnsons-red-meat-policy-proposals-are-telling-of-his-insecurity

"It is a moment often seen in the downward trajectory of embattled prime ministers: a whirl of new policy ideas intended to appeal to voters, but which are in fact more often aimed at placating their own MPs. Boris Johnson is, some would argue, approaching this point.

In recent days Downing Street has briefed in favour of grammar schools and imperial measurements. Earlier weeks saw forays into other Conservative comfort zones, including bashing the EU and talking up fossil fuels.

Such nostalgia politics is routinely promoted by Conservative backbenchers. But it is one of the paradoxes of Tory party politics that the more secure a prime minister is in office, the less they have to indulge these ideas."

If Johnson loses both by-elections he'll have to go Full Tonto and offer a vote on fox hunting.

Our best hope there is: monarchy abolished, SF start taking seats, hold whip hand in minority government. In the meantime there's always the Emerald Isle. Begorrah.

None of the 3 main party leaders now want to abolish the monarchy, nor is it even a priority for SF who just want to be governed by Dublin not London

Oh? Do the LDs want a republic?

Absolutely not, Davey supports our constitutional monarchy

You do know that Davey isn't god don't you. He doesn't decide LD policy.

62% of LD voters also want to keep the monarchy, significantly higher than the 43% of Labour voters who want to keep the monarchy even if not quite as high as the 86% of Conservative voters who want to keep the monarchy

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/05/21/young-britons-are-turning-their-backs-monarchy

It's not a massive issue for me but if perchance there was a Referendum on keeping the monarchy I think I'd vote No. That's a change of heart compared to say 10 years ago.

The reason? Because the institution we have with its pomp and scale is really a hangover from our grand imperial past. It feels out of time now. More than this, it feels absurd and just a touch embarrassing. I get that feeling more than I do the rather heavier sense of it reinforcing white supremacy and class privilege. I also think it infantilizes us a bit. Along with the harmless and positive aspects it does that. Which is not a great thing esp when we have a PM doing the same albeit in a different way.

So, on balance with the monarchy, a la Duncan Bannatyne on Dragons Den - it's a No from me.

Leon said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Bugger.
Now scouring the internet for 'I went to Berlin and all I got was lousy Covid' t shirts.

Get well soon

As someone travelling a lot right now, do you have a suspicion as to where you caught it? Plane? U-bahn?

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

IshmaelZ said:

Dura_Ace said:

Heathener said:

Good piece on Johnson's 'red meat policy' lurch to the right:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/may/30/johnsons-red-meat-policy-proposals-are-telling-of-his-insecurity

"It is a moment often seen in the downward trajectory of embattled prime ministers: a whirl of new policy ideas intended to appeal to voters, but which are in fact more often aimed at placating their own MPs. Boris Johnson is, some would argue, approaching this point.

In recent days Downing Street has briefed in favour of grammar schools and imperial measurements. Earlier weeks saw forays into other Conservative comfort zones, including bashing the EU and talking up fossil fuels.

Such nostalgia politics is routinely promoted by Conservative backbenchers. But it is one of the paradoxes of Tory party politics that the more secure a prime minister is in office, the less they have to indulge these ideas."

If Johnson loses both by-elections he'll have to go Full Tonto and offer a vote on fox hunting.

Our best hope there is: monarchy abolished, SF start taking seats, hold whip hand in minority government. In the meantime there's always the Emerald Isle. Begorrah.

None of the 3 main party leaders now want to abolish the monarchy, nor is it even a priority for SF who just want to be governed by Dublin not London

Oh? Do the LDs want a republic?

Absolutely not, Davey supports our constitutional monarchy

You do know that Davey isn't god don't you. He doesn't decide LD policy.

62% of LD voters also want to keep the monarchy, significantly higher than the 43% of Labour voters who want to keep the monarchy even if not quite as high as the 86% of Conservative voters who want to keep the monarchy

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/05/21/young-britons-are-turning-their-backs-monarchy

And what on earth has that got to do with what I said? Your response had no relevance to the point I was making. I was simply pointing out that as usual you are in awe of the people at the top of the hierarchy. All I care about is his views are largely in accordance with the party and liberal philosophy. I am not in awe of our lord's and masters.

You were suggesting most LDs were republicans and disagreed with Davey, I was showing on the contrary most LD voters like Davey support our constitutional monarchy

No I wasn't. It is amazing how you can misread posts. Your ability to misunderstand stuff is truly awesome.

I was simply pointing out that we LDs are not in awe of our betters like you, i.e. Davey isn't god. We all think for ourselves and are not guided by our supreme leader.

dixiedean said:

@leon makes the pertinent point here.
This poll comes after the money has been splashed.
Suggests the public may have made up their minds.
I expected a large swingback after the cash. Nowt at all.
Opinions seem to range between. Not before time. Why does X get Y and I only get Z? To those who say we can't afford it at all.
That's the problem when your big reveal is exactly what everyone expected.

kinabalu said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

IshmaelZ said:

Dura_Ace said:

Heathener said:

Good piece on Johnson's 'red meat policy' lurch to the right:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/may/30/johnsons-red-meat-policy-proposals-are-telling-of-his-insecurity

"It is a moment often seen in the downward trajectory of embattled prime ministers: a whirl of new policy ideas intended to appeal to voters, but which are in fact more often aimed at placating their own MPs. Boris Johnson is, some would argue, approaching this point.

In recent days Downing Street has briefed in favour of grammar schools and imperial measurements. Earlier weeks saw forays into other Conservative comfort zones, including bashing the EU and talking up fossil fuels.

Such nostalgia politics is routinely promoted by Conservative backbenchers. But it is one of the paradoxes of Tory party politics that the more secure a prime minister is in office, the less they have to indulge these ideas."

If Johnson loses both by-elections he'll have to go Full Tonto and offer a vote on fox hunting.

Our best hope there is: monarchy abolished, SF start taking seats, hold whip hand in minority government. In the meantime there's always the Emerald Isle. Begorrah.

None of the 3 main party leaders now want to abolish the monarchy, nor is it even a priority for SF who just want to be governed by Dublin not London

Oh? Do the LDs want a republic?

Absolutely not, Davey supports our constitutional monarchy

You do know that Davey isn't god don't you. He doesn't decide LD policy.

62% of LD voters also want to keep the monarchy, significantly higher than the 43% of Labour voters who want to keep the monarchy even if not quite as high as the 86% of Conservative voters who want to keep the monarchy

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/05/21/young-britons-are-turning-their-backs-monarchy

It's not a massive issue for me but if perchance there was a Referendum on keeping the monarchy I think I'd vote No. That's a change of heart compared to say 10 years ago.

The reason? Because the institution we have with its pomp and scale is really a hangover from our grand imperial past. It feels out of time now. More than this, it feels absurd and just a touch embarrassing. I get that feeling more than I do the rather heavier sense of it reinforcing white supremacy and class privilege. I also think it infantilizes us a bit. Along with the harmless and positive aspects it does that. Which is not a great thing esp when we have a PM doing the same albeit in a different way.

So, on balance with the monarchy, a la Duncan Bannatyne on Dragons Den - it's a No from me.

kjh said:

kinabalu said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

IshmaelZ said:

Dura_Ace said:

Heathener said:

Good piece on Johnson's 'red meat policy' lurch to the right:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/may/30/johnsons-red-meat-policy-proposals-are-telling-of-his-insecurity

"It is a moment often seen in the downward trajectory of embattled prime ministers: a whirl of new policy ideas intended to appeal to voters, but which are in fact more often aimed at placating their own MPs. Boris Johnson is, some would argue, approaching this point.

In recent days Downing Street has briefed in favour of grammar schools and imperial measurements. Earlier weeks saw forays into other Conservative comfort zones, including bashing the EU and talking up fossil fuels.

Such nostalgia politics is routinely promoted by Conservative backbenchers. But it is one of the paradoxes of Tory party politics that the more secure a prime minister is in office, the less they have to indulge these ideas."

If Johnson loses both by-elections he'll have to go Full Tonto and offer a vote on fox hunting.

Our best hope there is: monarchy abolished, SF start taking seats, hold whip hand in minority government. In the meantime there's always the Emerald Isle. Begorrah.

None of the 3 main party leaders now want to abolish the monarchy, nor is it even a priority for SF who just want to be governed by Dublin not London

Oh? Do the LDs want a republic?

Absolutely not, Davey supports our constitutional monarchy

You do know that Davey isn't god don't you. He doesn't decide LD policy.

62% of LD voters also want to keep the monarchy, significantly higher than the 43% of Labour voters who want to keep the monarchy even if not quite as high as the 86% of Conservative voters who want to keep the monarchy

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/05/21/young-britons-are-turning-their-backs-monarchy

It's not a massive issue for me but if perchance there was a Referendum on keeping the monarchy I think I'd vote No. That's a change of heart compared to say 10 years ago.

The reason? Because the institution we have with its pomp and scale is really a hangover from our grand imperial past. It feels out of time now. More than this, it feels absurd and just a touch embarrassing. I get that feeling more than I do the rather heavier sense of it reinforcing white supremacy and class privilege. I also think it infantilizes us a bit. Along with the harmless and positive aspects it does that. Which is not a great thing esp when we have a PM doing the same albeit in a different way.

So, on balance with the monarchy, a la Duncan Bannatyne on Dragons Den - it's a No from me.

I'm happy to leave well alone. In principle I am a republican because of my liberal views, but this is so low on any to do list it would never get done because in the words of Douglas Adams they are mostly harmless and I would add bring some joy to many. And I really quite like most of them. Even Andrew is a hoot.

DecrepiterJohnL said:

ydoethur said:

Stocky said:

My best guess of the two that make it to the membership vote: Wallace and Hunt.

I don't think Wallace is PM material but at least he has a functioning brain.

Similarly I always found Hunt rather a slippery character but he is at least competent.

Either would be an improvement.

I've made a start on Jeremy Hunt's new book, Zero, about reducing accidents in the NHS. It is better than I'd expected, at least for the couple of chapters read so far.

Cynics would point to the serendipity of a prominent leadership contender publishing just last week a serious book about policy and politics.

Stocky said:

kinabalu said:

Slackbladder said:

Scott_xP said:

William Hague reacts to @andrealeadsom joining the list of MPs calling for Boris Johnson to quit:

"the fuse is getting closer to the dynamite here and it's speeding up....the Conservative Party is moving faster towards a vote of confidence or no confidence." @TimesRadio
https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1531565273622499329

If the tories want to win the next election, the time to act is now.

The cabinet need a good sweeping out and a roll of the dice for replacements. Rees-Mogg, Patel, Dorries, all need to be ditched.

But will he lose a conf vote if it happens?

What's your gut feel on this? I'm about 75% lose, 25% win.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Taz said:

Large labour lead

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1531554047983030273?s=21&t=3hKEGfosZyHqgG1CUMQg6g

11% is over @HYUFD 10% for Boris to be in trouble

Come on @HYUFD join those of us calling for Boris to go

SirNorfolkPassmore said:

tlg86 said:

MattW said:

Leon said:

boulay said:

tlg86 said:

Leon said:

An authoritative account of the Disaster of St Denis


https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/may/31/champions-league-paris-final-fiasco-triggers-hillsborough-survivor-trauma?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

What strikes me is the pathetic inertia and complacency of the UEFA and FIFA officials, even when told of the horrible chaos outside the stadium, going on there and then. Shameful

The Olympic Games will be fun in 2024.

Rugby World Cup there first. Saturday will ultimately save France from a worse bashing - they will throw everything at it to ensure nothing like it happens during the World Cup - I imagine the police will be ringing the whole area to avoid the mugging etc rather than focussing onwards on the fans.

If that sort of behaviour happened at the World Cup then it would point to the police/authorities but if they do everything to avoid it they will no doubt say “see, we told you it was those naughty Liverpool fans”.

I see the French sports minister has doubled down blaming it on Liverpool “letting their fans out into the wild”. If that’s the case they seem to have encountered the savages of St Denis on this safari. Who knew that the suburbs of Paris were the “wilds”?

The French public and media are not buying the minister’s feeble diversions, however. He’s getting fierce criticism from Left and Right. The Left are blaming the government and police, the Right are blaming the scum of the suburbs, and the socialists that try to excuse them

Virtually no one - in France - is blaming the Liverpool fans. Across all the newspapers it is “France wins the trophy for incompetence “ or “France is humiliated on the world stage”. They are taking it seriously and it is still front page news

And the Spanish media is filled with similar accounts of chaos and mugging gangs.

Must be quite a shock for Macron and friends that the strategy of "1) Blame the Brits" followed by "2) Lie your heads off" has stopped working.

Even France 24 are calling them out on it.

I think the thing that will hurt is questions about whether this will happen at the 2024 Olympics. eg Will anybody standing in a queue or presenting a ticket at a turnstyle at Paris 2024 be at risk of random assault by Police Officers with Pepper Spray, and how will such police officers be held to account.

I'd have thought the policing would be different given that people going to the Olympics don't tend to spend the preceding five hours drinking in the city.

However, the Stade de France isn't in a purpose built Olympic Park. It isn't a particularly nice location, so all the other stuff to do with the locals, could be an issue.

The challenges of an Olympic Games are very different - crowds aren't segregated and you don't really get the boisterous behaviour that comes with football (not saying that was to blame here but it's an issue that needs to be managed with such crowds).

However, what this does demonstrate is a potentially very serious problem in the planning, decision making and command structure. The response was straightforwardly chaotic. There's no point "blaming" fake tickets - the fact is both that there were problems long before that, and the turnstiles weren't allowing the expected numbers through leading to a dangerous situation. It doesn't matter if that was due to fake tickets, a computer glitch, or something else - it's the sort of problem that can happen, and it's how you plan for and manage it.

So where is the risk register and what was the plan? It SURELY wasn't to disperse the crowd with pepper spray - but if it was something else, why wasn't that enacted on the ground?

These are really serious questions. The risk register and the challenges won't be the same for the Olympics... but there does need to be confidence in it, and there can't be at the moment.

Before we get too smug, of course, there were similar crises of confidence pre-2012 with contractor problems leading to the Army being brought in, and concerns over handling of the London Riots not all that long before the Olympics. So this isn't specific to France. But they do need to move on from denial and learn some lessons pretty fast.

Farooq said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

IshmaelZ said:

Dura_Ace said:

Heathener said:

Good piece on Johnson's 'red meat policy' lurch to the right:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/may/30/johnsons-red-meat-policy-proposals-are-telling-of-his-insecurity

"It is a moment often seen in the downward trajectory of embattled prime ministers: a whirl of new policy ideas intended to appeal to voters, but which are in fact more often aimed at placating their own MPs. Boris Johnson is, some would argue, approaching this point.

In recent days Downing Street has briefed in favour of grammar schools and imperial measurements. Earlier weeks saw forays into other Conservative comfort zones, including bashing the EU and talking up fossil fuels.

Such nostalgia politics is routinely promoted by Conservative backbenchers. But it is one of the paradoxes of Tory party politics that the more secure a prime minister is in office, the less they have to indulge these ideas."

If Johnson loses both by-elections he'll have to go Full Tonto and offer a vote on fox hunting.

Our best hope there is: monarchy abolished, SF start taking seats, hold whip hand in minority government. In the meantime there's always the Emerald Isle. Begorrah.

None of the 3 main party leaders now want to abolish the monarchy, nor is it even a priority for SF who just want to be governed by Dublin not London

Oh? Do the LDs want a republic?

Absolutely not, Davey supports our constitutional monarchy

You do know that Davey isn't god don't you. He doesn't decide LD policy.

62% of LD voters also want to keep the monarchy, significantly higher than the 43% of Labour voters who want to keep the monarchy even if not quite as high as the 86% of Conservative voters who want to keep the monarchy

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/05/21/young-britons-are-turning-their-backs-monarchy

And what on earth has that got to do with what I said? Your response had no relevance to the point I was making. I was simply pointing out that as usual you are in awe of the people at the top of the hierarchy. All I care about is his views are largely in accordance with the party and liberal philosophy. I am not in awe of our lord's and masters.

You were suggesting most LDs were republicans and disagreed with Davey, I was showing on the contrary most LD voters like Davey support our constitutional monarchy

No I wasn't. It is amazing how you can misread posts. Your ability to misunderstand stuff is truly awesome.

I was simply pointing out that we LDs are not in awe of our betters like you, i.e. Davey isn't god. We all think for ourselves and are not guided by our supreme leader.

Hmm, HYUFD rather missed my point that he should have said "four main parties". Unless he thinks Scotland is a republic?

The SNP do not stand in the UK as a whole unlike the main 3, only in Scotland and even Sturgeon has said she would not remove the monarchy as a priority even if Scotland became independent

They're still objectively the UK's 3rd party

Theuniondivvie said:

Bugger.
Now scouring the internet for 'I went to Berlin and all I got was lousy Covid' t shirts.

Theuniondivvie said:

Bugger.
Now scouring the internet for 'I went to Berlin and all I got was lousy Covid' t shirts.

Nigel_Foremain said:

Scott_xP said:

The Telegraph discrediting both "dead cats" deployed to save flailing Johnson feels like quite a significant moment. Especially since they seem custom-made for its readership. ~AA https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1531567821389549569/photo/1

Even the Brexitgraph doesn't like to be associated with an incompetent loser it seems. Rats and sinking ships

MattW said:

SirNorfolkPassmore said:

tlg86 said:

MattW said:

Leon said:

boulay said:

tlg86 said:

Leon said:

An authoritative account of the Disaster of St Denis


https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/may/31/champions-league-paris-final-fiasco-triggers-hillsborough-survivor-trauma?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

What strikes me is the pathetic inertia and complacency of the UEFA and FIFA officials, even when told of the horrible chaos outside the stadium, going on there and then. Shameful

The Olympic Games will be fun in 2024.

Rugby World Cup there first. Saturday will ultimately save France from a worse bashing - they will throw everything at it to ensure nothing like it happens during the World Cup - I imagine the police will be ringing the whole area to avoid the mugging etc rather than focussing onwards on the fans.

If that sort of behaviour happened at the World Cup then it would point to the police/authorities but if they do everything to avoid it they will no doubt say “see, we told you it was those naughty Liverpool fans”.

I see the French sports minister has doubled down blaming it on Liverpool “letting their fans out into the wild”. If that’s the case they seem to have encountered the savages of St Denis on this safari. Who knew that the suburbs of Paris were the “wilds”?

The French public and media are not buying the minister’s feeble diversions, however. He’s getting fierce criticism from Left and Right. The Left are blaming the government and police, the Right are blaming the scum of the suburbs, and the socialists that try to excuse them

Virtually no one - in France - is blaming the Liverpool fans. Across all the newspapers it is “France wins the trophy for incompetence “ or “France is humiliated on the world stage”. They are taking it seriously and it is still front page news

And the Spanish media is filled with similar accounts of chaos and mugging gangs.

Must be quite a shock for Macron and friends that the strategy of "1) Blame the Brits" followed by "2) Lie your heads off" has stopped working.

Even France 24 are calling them out on it.

I think the thing that will hurt is questions about whether this will happen at the 2024 Olympics. eg Will anybody standing in a queue or presenting a ticket at a turnstyle at Paris 2024 be at risk of random assault by Police Officers with Pepper Spray, and how will such police officers be held to account.

I'd have thought the policing would be different given that people going to the Olympics don't tend to spend the preceding five hours drinking in the city.

However, the Stade de France isn't in a purpose built Olympic Park. It isn't a particularly nice location, so all the other stuff to do with the locals, could be an issue.

The challenges of an Olympic Games are very different - crowds aren't segregated and you don't really get the boisterous behaviour that comes with football (not saying that was to blame here but it's an issue that needs to be managed with such crowds).

However, what this does demonstrate is a potentially very serious problem in the planning, decision making and command structure. The response was straightforwardly chaotic. There's no point "blaming" fake tickets - the fact is both that there were problems long before that, and the turnstiles weren't allowing the expected numbers through leading to a dangerous situation. It doesn't matter if that was due to fake tickets, a computer glitch, or something else - it's the sort of problem that can happen, and it's how you plan for and manage it.

So where is the risk register and what was the plan? It SURELY wasn't to disperse the crowd with pepper spray - but if it was something else, why wasn't that enacted on the ground?

These are really serious questions. The risk register and the challenges won't be the same for the Olympics... but there does need to be confidence in it, and there can't be at the moment.

Before we get too smug, of course, there were similar crises of confidence pre-2012 with contractor problems leading to the Army being brought in, and concerns over handling of the London Riots not all that long before the Olympics. So this isn't specific to France. But they do need to move on from denial and learn some lessons pretty fast.

Agree. I think the fans' behaviour is not the issue.

The boisterous behaviour last w/e was local criminal gangs, locals breaking into the stadium, and police pepper spraying people doing nothing wrong as if they were watering the garden.

Plus things like security threatening journalists with being prevented entering the stadium if they did not delete their footage.

Plus the stuff like forcing 20k of people through a couple of narrow gaps.

That's institutional reform, culture change and development of professionalism in the authorities needed, which is far trickier to do in 2 years. Even without the Government standing on their head in a bucket.

One difference is that the counterparty will be the Olympic Organising Committee not UEFA.

rottenborough said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Scott_xP said:

The Telegraph discrediting both "dead cats" deployed to save flailing Johnson feels like quite a significant moment. Especially since they seem custom-made for its readership. ~AA https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1531567821389549569/photo/1

Even the Brexitgraph doesn't like to be associated with an incompetent loser it seems. Rats and sinking ships

This isn't particularly new. There has been a steady stream of columnists attacking Johnson, particularly over failure to actually be a conservative for weeks now. Heath, Johnston, Timothy etc etc.

rottenborough said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Scott_xP said:

The Telegraph discrediting both "dead cats" deployed to save flailing Johnson feels like quite a significant moment. Especially since they seem custom-made for its readership. ~AA https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1531567821389549569/photo/1

Even the Brexitgraph doesn't like to be associated with an incompetent loser it seems. Rats and sinking ships

This isn't particularly new. There has been a steady stream of columnists attacking Johnson, particularly over failure to actually be a conservative for weeks now. Heath, Johnston, Timothy etc etc.

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

IshmaelZ said:

Dura_Ace said:

Heathener said:

Good piece on Johnson's 'red meat policy' lurch to the right:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/may/30/johnsons-red-meat-policy-proposals-are-telling-of-his-insecurity

"It is a moment often seen in the downward trajectory of embattled prime ministers: a whirl of new policy ideas intended to appeal to voters, but which are in fact more often aimed at placating their own MPs. Boris Johnson is, some would argue, approaching this point.

In recent days Downing Street has briefed in favour of grammar schools and imperial measurements. Earlier weeks saw forays into other Conservative comfort zones, including bashing the EU and talking up fossil fuels.

Such nostalgia politics is routinely promoted by Conservative backbenchers. But it is one of the paradoxes of Tory party politics that the more secure a prime minister is in office, the less they have to indulge these ideas."

If Johnson loses both by-elections he'll have to go Full Tonto and offer a vote on fox hunting.

Our best hope there is: monarchy abolished, SF start taking seats, hold whip hand in minority government. In the meantime there's always the Emerald Isle. Begorrah.

None of the 3 main party leaders now want to abolish the monarchy, nor is it even a priority for SF who just want to be governed by Dublin not London

Oh? Do the LDs want a republic?

Absolutely not, Davey supports our constitutional monarchy

You do know that Davey isn't god don't you. He doesn't decide LD policy.

62% of LD voters also want to keep the monarchy, significantly higher than the 43% of Labour voters who want to keep the monarchy even if not quite as high as the 86% of Conservative voters who want to keep the monarchy

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/05/21/young-britons-are-turning-their-backs-monarchy

And what on earth has that got to do with what I said? Your response had no relevance to the point I was making. I was simply pointing out that as usual you are in awe of the people at the top of the hierarchy. All I care about is his views are largely in accordance with the party and liberal philosophy. I am not in awe of our lord's and masters.

You were suggesting most LDs were republicans and disagreed with Davey, I was showing on the contrary most LD voters like Davey support our constitutional monarchy

No I wasn't. It is amazing how you can misread posts. Your ability to misunderstand stuff is truly awesome.

I was simply pointing out that we LDs are not in awe of our betters like you, i.e. Davey isn't god. We all think for ourselves and are not guided by our supreme leader.

Hmm, HYUFD rather missed my point that he should have said "four main parties". Unless he thinks Scotland is a republic?

The SNP do not stand in the UK as a whole unlike the main 3, only in Scotland and even Sturgeon has said she would not remove the monarchy as a priority even if Scotland became independent

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

IshmaelZ said:

Dura_Ace said:

Heathener said:

Good piece on Johnson's 'red meat policy' lurch to the right:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/may/30/johnsons-red-meat-policy-proposals-are-telling-of-his-insecurity

"It is a moment often seen in the downward trajectory of embattled prime ministers: a whirl of new policy ideas intended to appeal to voters, but which are in fact more often aimed at placating their own MPs. Boris Johnson is, some would argue, approaching this point.

In recent days Downing Street has briefed in favour of grammar schools and imperial measurements. Earlier weeks saw forays into other Conservative comfort zones, including bashing the EU and talking up fossil fuels.

Such nostalgia politics is routinely promoted by Conservative backbenchers. But it is one of the paradoxes of Tory party politics that the more secure a prime minister is in office, the less they have to indulge these ideas."

If Johnson loses both by-elections he'll have to go Full Tonto and offer a vote on fox hunting.

Our best hope there is: monarchy abolished, SF start taking seats, hold whip hand in minority government. In the meantime there's always the Emerald Isle. Begorrah.

None of the 3 main party leaders now want to abolish the monarchy, nor is it even a priority for SF who just want to be governed by Dublin not London

Oh? Do the LDs want a republic?

Absolutely not, Davey supports our constitutional monarchy

You do know that Davey isn't god don't you. He doesn't decide LD policy.

62% of LD voters also want to keep the monarchy, significantly higher than the 43% of Labour voters who want to keep the monarchy even if not quite as high as the 86% of Conservative voters who want to keep the monarchy

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/05/21/young-britons-are-turning-their-backs-monarchy

And what on earth has that got to do with what I said? Your response had no relevance to the point I was making. I was simply pointing out that as usual you are in awe of the people at the top of the hierarchy. All I care about is his views are largely in accordance with the party and liberal philosophy. I am not in awe of our lord's and masters.

You were suggesting most LDs were republicans and disagreed with Davey, I was showing on the contrary most LD voters like Davey support our constitutional monarchy

No I wasn't. It is amazing how you can misread posts. Your ability to misunderstand stuff is truly awesome.

I was simply pointing out that we LDs are not in awe of our betters like you, i.e. Davey isn't god. We all think for ourselves and are not guided by our supreme leader.

Hmm, HYUFD rather missed my point that he should have said "four main parties". Unless he thinks Scotland is a republic?

The SNP do not stand in the UK as a whole unlike the main 3, only in Scotland and even Sturgeon has said she would not remove the monarchy as a priority even if Scotland became independent

The Tories don't stand in NI, neither do the LDs - I think Labour do?

Unless NI isn't part of the UK?

Nigel_Foremain said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

IshmaelZ said:

Dura_Ace said:

Heathener said:

Good piece on Johnson's 'red meat policy' lurch to the right:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/may/30/johnsons-red-meat-policy-proposals-are-telling-of-his-insecurity

"It is a moment often seen in the downward trajectory of embattled prime ministers: a whirl of new policy ideas intended to appeal to voters, but which are in fact more often aimed at placating their own MPs. Boris Johnson is, some would argue, approaching this point.

In recent days Downing Street has briefed in favour of grammar schools and imperial measurements. Earlier weeks saw forays into other Conservative comfort zones, including bashing the EU and talking up fossil fuels.

Such nostalgia politics is routinely promoted by Conservative backbenchers. But it is one of the paradoxes of Tory party politics that the more secure a prime minister is in office, the less they have to indulge these ideas."

If Johnson loses both by-elections he'll have to go Full Tonto and offer a vote on fox hunting.

Our best hope there is: monarchy abolished, SF start taking seats, hold whip hand in minority government. In the meantime there's always the Emerald Isle. Begorrah.

None of the 3 main party leaders now want to abolish the monarchy, nor is it even a priority for SF who just want to be governed by Dublin not London

Oh? Do the LDs want a republic?

Absolutely not, Davey supports our constitutional monarchy

You do know that Davey isn't god don't you. He doesn't decide LD policy.

62% of LD voters also want to keep the monarchy, significantly higher than the 43% of Labour voters who want to keep the monarchy even if not quite as high as the 86% of Conservative voters who want to keep the monarchy

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/05/21/young-britons-are-turning-their-backs-monarchy

And what on earth has that got to do with what I said? Your response had no relevance to the point I was making. I was simply pointing out that as usual you are in awe of the people at the top of the hierarchy. All I care about is his views are largely in accordance with the party and liberal philosophy. I am not in awe of our lord's and masters.

You were suggesting most LDs were republicans and disagreed with Davey, I was showing on the contrary most LD voters like Davey support our constitutional monarchy

No I wasn't. It is amazing how you can misread posts. Your ability to misunderstand stuff is truly awesome.

I was simply pointing out that we LDs are not in awe of our betters like you, i.e. Davey isn't god. We all think for ourselves and are not guided by our supreme leader.

Hmm, HYUFD rather missed my point that he should have said "four main parties". Unless he thinks Scotland is a republic?

The SNP do not stand in the UK as a whole unlike the main 3, only in Scotland and even Sturgeon has said she would not remove the monarchy as a priority even if Scotland became independent

The Tories don't stand in NI, neither do the LDs - I think Labour do?

Unless NI isn't part of the UK?

Traditionally the Tories were partnered with DUP and Labour SDLP. But I think you knew that anyway.

TOPPING said:

Alistair said:

IshmaelZ said:

Alistair said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

TOPPING said:

Carnyx said:

noneoftheabove said:

Dura_Ace said:

Heathener said:

Good piece on Johnson's 'red meat policy' lurch to the right:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/may/30/johnsons-red-meat-policy-proposals-are-telling-of-his-insecurity

"It is a moment often seen in the downward trajectory of embattled prime ministers: a whirl of new policy ideas intended to appeal to voters, but which are in fact more often aimed at placating their own MPs. Boris Johnson is, some would argue, approaching this point.

In recent days Downing Street has briefed in favour of grammar schools and imperial measurements. Earlier weeks saw forays into other Conservative comfort zones, including bashing the EU and talking up fossil fuels.

Such nostalgia politics is routinely promoted by Conservative backbenchers. But it is one of the paradoxes of Tory party politics that the more secure a prime minister is in office, the less they have to indulge these ideas."

If Johnson loses both by-elections he'll have to go Full Tonto and offer a vote on fox hunting.

Pritis 24 election manifesto will be led by the restoration of the death penalty, not just for cop killers but also random foxes.

Allowing fox-hunting seems morally unsound to me on two grounds, but why should I be surprised at anything this administration does?

a) Always look for any upper class/lower class differential in any 'morality'-driven regulation. Cf. divorce under the C of E of old (Scotland was a bit more sensible, not sure about Wales). In this case fox hunting is definitely toff territory, largely upper class/snobbish activity (albeit with quite a few prole followers) - but why allow nobby blood sports when banning working class ones such as cock fighting and bull baiting?

b) foxes obv don't like being hunted*, but cockerels are only too happy to have a scrap, like squaddies of different regiments in an Aldershot pub, so who's being unkind to whom?

*On empirical grounds. They run away. Cf. M. S. Dawkins's 1970s/1980s research on hens, which showed that they preferred not to live in a battery cage but in the more old fashioned alternative, simply by giving them the option.

There is plenty of treatment of animals which people disagree over. Look at the cracking social media campaign that VFC is conducting right now.

One of the criteria to be applied to any activity, from riding ponies to foxhunting to keeping goldfish to having a domestic dog to having a dairy herd to zapping a fly should be - is it cruel.

And it was determined that foxhunting was not cruel.

That said, now is not the time to have a vote to bring back foxhunting. Not least because it would be defeated. Badly.

Well said. People who think fox hunting was cruel never bothered to read the burns report because they were far too consumed by their prejudice and general hatred of genuinely rural people that don't share their plastic view of the countryside.

Quality erasure of "genuinely rural people" who think fox hunting is a bag of shite.

Or are you only genuinely rural if you think fox hunting is good?

The genuinely rural realise that death and suffering among foxes has rocketed since the hunting act because people used to want there to be some foxes. Now they don't farmers and pheasant shoots splat them with nightsights by the dozen. The wounded ones die of gangrene because they don't lick their wounds (only tamed canids do)

I am sure a countryman like you knows all that. But hey, increased animal suffering Vs spiting the toffs...

Yes, famously farmers upon seeing a fox would think "I could shoot this fucker worrying my livestock right now but I better leave it around for some wankers to chase in 3 months time".

It's more complicated than that. First off the hunt spends a lot of time visiting said farmer (who might easily hunt or have a hunting daughter/family himself) for precisely these reasons. To ensure that there is understanding and agreement (areas to avoid, making good afterwards, etc). Farmers who are anti-hunting are left alone and no one goes near their land.

And of course there are people who live in the countryside who are anti-hunting. Not everyone outside the cities and suburbs supports hunting, and that's fine. Plenty do, however.

But the bigger point is more important, and you make it yourself - you accept that one way or another the fox gets it. Either by being shot (good luck with that but of course it happens) or snaring or gassing or being hunted by hounds.

And funnily enough of all of those methods the only one AFAIA that has had a whole enquiry dedicated to it is the last, hunting by hounds, and that enquiry determined that such activity was not cruel.

Nigel_Foremain said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

IshmaelZ said:

Dura_Ace said:

Heathener said:

Good piece on Johnson's 'red meat policy' lurch to the right:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/may/30/johnsons-red-meat-policy-proposals-are-telling-of-his-insecurity

"It is a moment often seen in the downward trajectory of embattled prime ministers: a whirl of new policy ideas intended to appeal to voters, but which are in fact more often aimed at placating their own MPs. Boris Johnson is, some would argue, approaching this point.

In recent days Downing Street has briefed in favour of grammar schools and imperial measurements. Earlier weeks saw forays into other Conservative comfort zones, including bashing the EU and talking up fossil fuels.

Such nostalgia politics is routinely promoted by Conservative backbenchers. But it is one of the paradoxes of Tory party politics that the more secure a prime minister is in office, the less they have to indulge these ideas."

If Johnson loses both by-elections he'll have to go Full Tonto and offer a vote on fox hunting.

Our best hope there is: monarchy abolished, SF start taking seats, hold whip hand in minority government. In the meantime there's always the Emerald Isle. Begorrah.

None of the 3 main party leaders now want to abolish the monarchy, nor is it even a priority for SF who just want to be governed by Dublin not London

Oh? Do the LDs want a republic?

Absolutely not, Davey supports our constitutional monarchy

You do know that Davey isn't god don't you. He doesn't decide LD policy.

62% of LD voters also want to keep the monarchy, significantly higher than the 43% of Labour voters who want to keep the monarchy even if not quite as high as the 86% of Conservative voters who want to keep the monarchy

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/05/21/young-britons-are-turning-their-backs-monarchy

And what on earth has that got to do with what I said? Your response had no relevance to the point I was making. I was simply pointing out that as usual you are in awe of the people at the top of the hierarchy. All I care about is his views are largely in accordance with the party and liberal philosophy. I am not in awe of our lord's and masters.

You were suggesting most LDs were republicans and disagreed with Davey, I was showing on the contrary most LD voters like Davey support our constitutional monarchy

No I wasn't. It is amazing how you can misread posts. Your ability to misunderstand stuff is truly awesome.

I was simply pointing out that we LDs are not in awe of our betters like you, i.e. Davey isn't god. We all think for ourselves and are not guided by our supreme leader.

Hmm, HYUFD rather missed my point that he should have said "four main parties". Unless he thinks Scotland is a republic?

The SNP do not stand in the UK as a whole unlike the main 3, only in Scotland and even Sturgeon has said she would not remove the monarchy as a priority even if Scotland became independent

The Tories don't stand in NI, neither do the LDs - I think Labour do?

Unless NI isn't part of the UK?

Traditionally the Tories were partnered with Ulster Unionists and Labour SDLP. But I think you knew that anyway.

HYUFD said:

rottenborough said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Scott_xP said:

The Telegraph discrediting both "dead cats" deployed to save flailing Johnson feels like quite a significant moment. Especially since they seem custom-made for its readership. ~AA https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1531567821389549569/photo/1

Even the Brexitgraph doesn't like to be associated with an incompetent loser it seems. Rats and sinking ships

This isn't particularly new. There has been a steady stream of columnists attacking Johnson, particularly over failure to actually be a conservative for weeks now. Heath, Johnston, Timothy etc etc.

Of course the likelihood is if Johnson goes the Conservative Party will shift further right, especially on economics

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

IshmaelZ said:

Dura_Ace said:

Heathener said:

Good piece on Johnson's 'red meat policy' lurch to the right:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/may/30/johnsons-red-meat-policy-proposals-are-telling-of-his-insecurity

"It is a moment often seen in the downward trajectory of embattled prime ministers: a whirl of new policy ideas intended to appeal to voters, but which are in fact more often aimed at placating their own MPs. Boris Johnson is, some would argue, approaching this point.

In recent days Downing Street has briefed in favour of grammar schools and imperial measurements. Earlier weeks saw forays into other Conservative comfort zones, including bashing the EU and talking up fossil fuels.

Such nostalgia politics is routinely promoted by Conservative backbenchers. But it is one of the paradoxes of Tory party politics that the more secure a prime minister is in office, the less they have to indulge these ideas."

If Johnson loses both by-elections he'll have to go Full Tonto and offer a vote on fox hunting.

Our best hope there is: monarchy abolished, SF start taking seats, hold whip hand in minority government. In the meantime there's always the Emerald Isle. Begorrah.

None of the 3 main party leaders now want to abolish the monarchy, nor is it even a priority for SF who just want to be governed by Dublin not London

Oh? Do the LDs want a republic?

Absolutely not, Davey supports our constitutional monarchy

You do know that Davey isn't god don't you. He doesn't decide LD policy.

62% of LD voters also want to keep the monarchy, significantly higher than the 43% of Labour voters who want to keep the monarchy even if not quite as high as the 86% of Conservative voters who want to keep the monarchy

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/05/21/young-britons-are-turning-their-backs-monarchy

And what on earth has that got to do with what I said? Your response had no relevance to the point I was making. I was simply pointing out that as usual you are in awe of the people at the top of the hierarchy. All I care about is his views are largely in accordance with the party and liberal philosophy. I am not in awe of our lord's and masters.

You were suggesting most LDs were republicans and disagreed with Davey, I was showing on the contrary most LD voters like Davey support our constitutional monarchy

No I wasn't. It is amazing how you can misread posts. Your ability to misunderstand stuff is truly awesome.

I was simply pointing out that we LDs are not in awe of our betters like you, i.e. Davey isn't god. We all think for ourselves and are not guided by our supreme leader.

Hmm, HYUFD rather missed my point that he should have said "four main parties". Unless he thinks Scotland is a republic?

The SNP do not stand in the UK as a whole unlike the main 3, only in Scotland and even Sturgeon has said she would not remove the monarchy as a priority even if Scotland became independent

The Tories don't stand in NI, neither do the LDs - I think Labour do?

Unless NI isn't part of the UK?

The Conservative Party of NI certainly do stand there, all the other 2 parties stand throughout GB unlike the SNP and in NI via their sister parties the SDLP and Alliance

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_Conservatives

Stocky said:

kinabalu said:

Slackbladder said:

Scott_xP said:

William Hague reacts to @andrealeadsom joining the list of MPs calling for Boris Johnson to quit:

"the fuse is getting closer to the dynamite here and it's speeding up....the Conservative Party is moving faster towards a vote of confidence or no confidence." @TimesRadio
https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1531565273622499329

If the tories want to win the next election, the time to act is now.

The cabinet need a good sweeping out and a roll of the dice for replacements. Rees-Mogg, Patel, Dorries, all need to be ditched.

But will he lose a conf vote if it happens?

What's your gut feel on this? I'm about 75% lose, 25% win.

Farooq said:

IshmaelZ said:

Farooq said:

HYUFD said:

kinabalu said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

IshmaelZ said:

Dura_Ace said:

Heathener said:

Good piece on Johnson's 'red meat policy' lurch to the right:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/may/30/johnsons-red-meat-policy-proposals-are-telling-of-his-insecurity

"It is a moment often seen in the downward trajectory of embattled prime ministers: a whirl of new policy ideas intended to appeal to voters, but which are in fact more often aimed at placating their own MPs. Boris Johnson is, some would argue, approaching this point.

In recent days Downing Street has briefed in favour of grammar schools and imperial measurements. Earlier weeks saw forays into other Conservative comfort zones, including bashing the EU and talking up fossil fuels.

Such nostalgia politics is routinely promoted by Conservative backbenchers. But it is one of the paradoxes of Tory party politics that the more secure a prime minister is in office, the less they have to indulge these ideas."

If Johnson loses both by-elections he'll have to go Full Tonto and offer a vote on fox hunting.

Our best hope there is: monarchy abolished, SF start taking seats, hold whip hand in minority government. In the meantime there's always the Emerald Isle. Begorrah.

None of the 3 main party leaders now want to abolish the monarchy, nor is it even a priority for SF who just want to be governed by Dublin not London

Oh? Do the LDs want a republic?

Absolutely not, Davey supports our constitutional monarchy

You do know that Davey isn't god don't you. He doesn't decide LD policy.

62% of LD voters also want to keep the monarchy, significantly higher than the 43% of Labour voters who want to keep the monarchy even if not quite as high as the 86% of Conservative voters who want to keep the monarchy

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/05/21/young-britons-are-turning-their-backs-monarchy

It's not a massive issue for me but if perchance there was a Referendum on keeping the monarchy I think I'd vote No. That's a change of heart compared to say 10 years ago.

The reason? Because the institution we have with its pomp and scale is really a hangover from our grand imperial past. It feels out of time now. More than this, it feels absurd and just a touch embarrassing. I get that feeling more than I do the rather heavier sense of it reinforcing white supremacy and class privilege. I also think it infantilizes us a bit. Along with the harmless and positive aspects it does that. Which is not a great thing esp when we have a PM doing the same albeit in a different way.

So, on balance with the monarchy, a la Duncan Bannatyne on Dragons Den - it's a No from me.

We had a monarchy centuries before we had an Empire or even a Union, many nations without imperial pasts eg Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Jordan also have constitutional monarchies

Wait, you think Denmark doesn't have an imperial past?
Good god man, can you get ANYTHING right?

Or Sweden

Denmark: we claim Greenland!
HYUFD: not a real empire
Italy: we claim a quarter of the Sahara desert!
HYUFD: [places forehead on the floor]

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

IshmaelZ said:

Dura_Ace said:

Heathener said:

Good piece on Johnson's 'red meat policy' lurch to the right:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/may/30/johnsons-red-meat-policy-proposals-are-telling-of-his-insecurity

"It is a moment often seen in the downward trajectory of embattled prime ministers: a whirl of new policy ideas intended to appeal to voters, but which are in fact more often aimed at placating their own MPs. Boris Johnson is, some would argue, approaching this point.

In recent days Downing Street has briefed in favour of grammar schools and imperial measurements. Earlier weeks saw forays into other Conservative comfort zones, including bashing the EU and talking up fossil fuels.

Such nostalgia politics is routinely promoted by Conservative backbenchers. But it is one of the paradoxes of Tory party politics that the more secure a prime minister is in office, the less they have to indulge these ideas."

If Johnson loses both by-elections he'll have to go Full Tonto and offer a vote on fox hunting.

Our best hope there is: monarchy abolished, SF start taking seats, hold whip hand in minority government. In the meantime there's always the Emerald Isle. Begorrah.

None of the 3 main party leaders now want to abolish the monarchy, nor is it even a priority for SF who just want to be governed by Dublin not London

Oh? Do the LDs want a republic?

Absolutely not, Davey supports our constitutional monarchy

You do know that Davey isn't god don't you. He doesn't decide LD policy.

62% of LD voters also want to keep the monarchy, significantly higher than the 43% of Labour voters who want to keep the monarchy even if not quite as high as the 86% of Conservative voters who want to keep the monarchy

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/05/21/young-britons-are-turning-their-backs-monarchy

And what on earth has that got to do with what I said? Your response had no relevance to the point I was making. I was simply pointing out that as usual you are in awe of the people at the top of the hierarchy. All I care about is his views are largely in accordance with the party and liberal philosophy. I am not in awe of our lord's and masters.

You were suggesting most LDs were republicans and disagreed with Davey, I was showing on the contrary most LD voters like Davey support our constitutional monarchy

No I wasn't. It is amazing how you can misread posts. Your ability to misunderstand stuff is truly awesome.

I was simply pointing out that we LDs are not in awe of our betters like you, i.e. Davey isn't god. We all think for ourselves and are not guided by our supreme leader.

Hmm, HYUFD rather missed my point that he should have said "four main parties". Unless he thinks Scotland is a republic?

The SNP do not stand in the UK as a whole unlike the main 3, only in Scotland and even Sturgeon has said she would not remove the monarchy as a priority even if Scotland became independent

The Tories don't stand in NI, neither do the LDs - I think Labour do?

Unless NI isn't part of the UK?

The Conservative Party of NI certainly do stand there, all the other 2 parties stand throughout GB unlike the SNP and in NI via their sister parties the SDLP and Alliance

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_Conservatives

SDLP and Alliance are not the same parties as their so-called 'sisters' (your expression). Look at the Electoral Commission criteria. You're fiddling things yet again becvause you can't bear to be caught out in a schoolchild error about politics.

Pro_Rata said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

kinabalu said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

IshmaelZ said:

Dura_Ace said:

Heathener said:

Good piece on Johnson's 'red meat policy' lurch to the right:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/may/30/johnsons-red-meat-policy-proposals-are-telling-of-his-insecurity

"It is a moment often seen in the downward trajectory of embattled prime ministers: a whirl of new policy ideas intended to appeal to voters, but which are in fact more often aimed at placating their own MPs. Boris Johnson is, some would argue, approaching this point.

In recent days Downing Street has briefed in favour of grammar schools and imperial measurements. Earlier weeks saw forays into other Conservative comfort zones, including bashing the EU and talking up fossil fuels.

Such nostalgia politics is routinely promoted by Conservative backbenchers. But it is one of the paradoxes of Tory party politics that the more secure a prime minister is in office, the less they have to indulge these ideas."

If Johnson loses both by-elections he'll have to go Full Tonto and offer a vote on fox hunting.

Our best hope there is: monarchy abolished, SF start taking seats, hold whip hand in minority government. In the meantime there's always the Emerald Isle. Begorrah.

None of the 3 main party leaders now want to abolish the monarchy, nor is it even a priority for SF who just want to be governed by Dublin not London

Oh? Do the LDs want a republic?

Absolutely not, Davey supports our constitutional monarchy

You do know that Davey isn't god don't you. He doesn't decide LD policy.

62% of LD voters also want to keep the monarchy, significantly higher than the 43% of Labour voters who want to keep the monarchy even if not quite as high as the 86% of Conservative voters who want to keep the monarchy

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/05/21/young-britons-are-turning-their-backs-monarchy

It's not a massive issue for me but if perchance there was a Referendum on keeping the monarchy I think I'd vote No. That's a change of heart compared to say 10 years ago.

The reason? Because the institution we have with its pomp and scale is really a hangover from our grand imperial past. It feels out of time now. More than this, it feels absurd and just a touch embarrassing. I get that feeling more than I do the rather heavier sense of it reinforcing white supremacy and class privilege. I also think it infantilizes us a bit. Along with the harmless and positive aspects it does that. Which is not a great thing esp when we have a PM doing the same albeit in a different way.

So, on balance with the monarchy, a la Duncan Bannatyne on Dragons Den - it's a No from me.

My view on it is the same as my view on leaving the EU. I am not massively in favour and not massively against. Nonetheless, it would be a totally unnecessary constitutional change, so the change and upheaval is pointless. The House of Lords on the other hand...

My views would be to structure things so as to preserve as much of the current status quo as possible under democratic consent.

For royalty, I would elect the head of the privy council on a long tenure, who would be understood to step in as political head of state in any republican settlement. I'd then put some kind of public acclamation vote on a new head of state in the first few years of reign and perhaps at long periods thereafter. Failure of acclamation would put a stronger onus on the privy council, but only repeat losses would lead to a vote on the monarchy itself. I'd also remove the disbarment of Catholics, and allow for separation in who would succeed as religious head of state in those circumstances.

For the Lords, I would go for a Regional PR system (close to EU election system), with parties having regional appointment committees. Lords elections would coincide with GEs, but then Lords would only be appointed to rebalance from the lists annually, based on aggregate 15 year results (30 per yr X 15 yr tenure). Cross-bench lists would be a baked in feature, and a transition period with 1/15 of current peers retiring annually to be replaced in proportion to the last 15 years GE results to be started. (this could also incorporate legal, spiritual and hereditary strands in the closed lists if necessary).

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

IshmaelZ said:

Dura_Ace said:

Heathener said:

Good piece on Johnson's 'red meat policy' lurch to the right:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/may/30/johnsons-red-meat-policy-proposals-are-telling-of-his-insecurity

"It is a moment often seen in the downward trajectory of embattled prime ministers: a whirl of new policy ideas intended to appeal to voters, but which are in fact more often aimed at placating their own MPs. Boris Johnson is, some would argue, approaching this point.

In recent days Downing Street has briefed in favour of grammar schools and imperial measurements. Earlier weeks saw forays into other Conservative comfort zones, including bashing the EU and talking up fossil fuels.

Such nostalgia politics is routinely promoted by Conservative backbenchers. But it is one of the paradoxes of Tory party politics that the more secure a prime minister is in office, the less they have to indulge these ideas."

If Johnson loses both by-elections he'll have to go Full Tonto and offer a vote on fox hunting.

Our best hope there is: monarchy abolished, SF start taking seats, hold whip hand in minority government. In the meantime there's always the Emerald Isle. Begorrah.

None of the 3 main party leaders now want to abolish the monarchy, nor is it even a priority for SF who just want to be governed by Dublin not London

Oh? Do the LDs want a republic?

Absolutely not, Davey supports our constitutional monarchy

You do know that Davey isn't god don't you. He doesn't decide LD policy.

62% of LD voters also want to keep the monarchy, significantly higher than the 43% of Labour voters who want to keep the monarchy even if not quite as high as the 86% of Conservative voters who want to keep the monarchy

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/05/21/young-britons-are-turning-their-backs-monarchy

And what on earth has that got to do with what I said? Your response had no relevance to the point I was making. I was simply pointing out that as usual you are in awe of the people at the top of the hierarchy. All I care about is his views are largely in accordance with the party and liberal philosophy. I am not in awe of our lord's and masters.

You were suggesting most LDs were republicans and disagreed with Davey, I was showing on the contrary most LD voters like Davey support our constitutional monarchy

No I wasn't. It is amazing how you can misread posts. Your ability to misunderstand stuff is truly awesome.

I was simply pointing out that we LDs are not in awe of our betters like you, i.e. Davey isn't god. We all think for ourselves and are not guided by our supreme leader.

You changed tack to that but your original statement was clearly suggesting LD voters were anti monarchy and Davey could not dictate LD policy over that

No it wasn't you Pillock. How can you so obviously misunderstand just 14 words. I'm not even anti and had no idea what LD voters views were.

You really are mad.

kinabalu said:

kjh said:

kinabalu said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

IshmaelZ said:

Dura_Ace said:

Heathener said:

Good piece on Johnson's 'red meat policy' lurch to the right:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/may/30/johnsons-red-meat-policy-proposals-are-telling-of-his-insecurity

"It is a moment often seen in the downward trajectory of embattled prime ministers: a whirl of new policy ideas intended to appeal to voters, but which are in fact more often aimed at placating their own MPs. Boris Johnson is, some would argue, approaching this point.

In recent days Downing Street has briefed in favour of grammar schools and imperial measurements. Earlier weeks saw forays into other Conservative comfort zones, including bashing the EU and talking up fossil fuels.

Such nostalgia politics is routinely promoted by Conservative backbenchers. But it is one of the paradoxes of Tory party politics that the more secure a prime minister is in office, the less they have to indulge these ideas."

If Johnson loses both by-elections he'll have to go Full Tonto and offer a vote on fox hunting.

Our best hope there is: monarchy abolished, SF start taking seats, hold whip hand in minority government. In the meantime there's always the Emerald Isle. Begorrah.

None of the 3 main party leaders now want to abolish the monarchy, nor is it even a priority for SF who just want to be governed by Dublin not London

Oh? Do the LDs want a republic?

Absolutely not, Davey supports our constitutional monarchy

You do know that Davey isn't god don't you. He doesn't decide LD policy.

62% of LD voters also want to keep the monarchy, significantly higher than the 43% of Labour voters who want to keep the monarchy even if not quite as high as the 86% of Conservative voters who want to keep the monarchy

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/05/21/young-britons-are-turning-their-backs-monarchy

It's not a massive issue for me but if perchance there was a Referendum on keeping the monarchy I think I'd vote No. That's a change of heart compared to say 10 years ago.

The reason? Because the institution we have with its pomp and scale is really a hangover from our grand imperial past. It feels out of time now. More than this, it feels absurd and just a touch embarrassing. I get that feeling more than I do the rather heavier sense of it reinforcing white supremacy and class privilege. I also think it infantilizes us a bit. Along with the harmless and positive aspects it does that. Which is not a great thing esp when we have a PM doing the same albeit in a different way.

So, on balance with the monarchy, a la Duncan Bannatyne on Dragons Den - it's a No from me.

I'm happy to leave well alone. In principle I am a republican because of my liberal views, but this is so low on any to do list it would never get done because in the words of Douglas Adams they are mostly harmless and I would add bring some joy to many. And I really quite like most of them. Even Andrew is a hoot.

I'm not that fussed either. But if there were a binary Ref, keep v not, I'd vote not. I just thought about it properly this morning and slightly surprised myself with that conclusion.

kinabalu said:

Stocky said:

kinabalu said:

Slackbladder said:

Scott_xP said:

William Hague reacts to @andrealeadsom joining the list of MPs calling for Boris Johnson to quit:

"the fuse is getting closer to the dynamite here and it's speeding up....the Conservative Party is moving faster towards a vote of confidence or no confidence." @TimesRadio
https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1531565273622499329

If the tories want to win the next election, the time to act is now.

The cabinet need a good sweeping out and a roll of the dice for replacements. Rees-Mogg, Patel, Dorries, all need to be ditched.

But will he lose a conf vote if it happens?

What's your gut feel on this? I'm about 75% lose, 25% win.

Have it more 50/50 but it's not much of a gut feel. Tories something of a mystery to me sometimes.

H is the view to get if he's in a candid helpful mood.

Alistair said:

TOPPING said:

Alistair said:

IshmaelZ said:

Alistair said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

TOPPING said:

Carnyx said:

noneoftheabove said:

Dura_Ace said:

Heathener said:

Good piece on Johnson's 'red meat policy' lurch to the right:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/may/30/johnsons-red-meat-policy-proposals-are-telling-of-his-insecurity

"It is a moment often seen in the downward trajectory of embattled prime ministers: a whirl of new policy ideas intended to appeal to voters, but which are in fact more often aimed at placating their own MPs. Boris Johnson is, some would argue, approaching this point.

In recent days Downing Street has briefed in favour of grammar schools and imperial measurements. Earlier weeks saw forays into other Conservative comfort zones, including bashing the EU and talking up fossil fuels.

Such nostalgia politics is routinely promoted by Conservative backbenchers. But it is one of the paradoxes of Tory party politics that the more secure a prime minister is in office, the less they have to indulge these ideas."

If Johnson loses both by-elections he'll have to go Full Tonto and offer a vote on fox hunting.

Pritis 24 election manifesto will be led by the restoration of the death penalty, not just for cop killers but also random foxes.

Allowing fox-hunting seems morally unsound to me on two grounds, but why should I be surprised at anything this administration does?

a) Always look for any upper class/lower class differential in any 'morality'-driven regulation. Cf. divorce under the C of E of old (Scotland was a bit more sensible, not sure about Wales). In this case fox hunting is definitely toff territory, largely upper class/snobbish activity (albeit with quite a few prole followers) - but why allow nobby blood sports when banning working class ones such as cock fighting and bull baiting?

b) foxes obv don't like being hunted*, but cockerels are only too happy to have a scrap, like squaddies of different regiments in an Aldershot pub, so who's being unkind to whom?

*On empirical grounds. They run away. Cf. M. S. Dawkins's 1970s/1980s research on hens, which showed that they preferred not to live in a battery cage but in the more old fashioned alternative, simply by giving them the option.

There is plenty of treatment of animals which people disagree over. Look at the cracking social media campaign that VFC is conducting right now.

One of the criteria to be applied to any activity, from riding ponies to foxhunting to keeping goldfish to having a domestic dog to having a dairy herd to zapping a fly should be - is it cruel.

And it was determined that foxhunting was not cruel.

That said, now is not the time to have a vote to bring back foxhunting. Not least because it would be defeated. Badly.

Well said. People who think fox hunting was cruel never bothered to read the burns report because they were far too consumed by their prejudice and general hatred of genuinely rural people that don't share their plastic view of the countryside.

Quality erasure of "genuinely rural people" who think fox hunting is a bag of shite.

Or are you only genuinely rural if you think fox hunting is good?

The genuinely rural realise that death and suffering among foxes has rocketed since the hunting act because people used to want there to be some foxes. Now they don't farmers and pheasant shoots splat them with nightsights by the dozen. The wounded ones die of gangrene because they don't lick their wounds (only tamed canids do)

I am sure a countryman like you knows all that. But hey, increased animal suffering Vs spiting the toffs...

Yes, famously farmers upon seeing a fox would think "I could shoot this fucker worrying my livestock right now but I better leave it around for some wankers to chase in 3 months time".

It's more complicated than that. First off the hunt spends a lot of time visiting said farmer (who might easily hunt or have a hunting daughter/family himself) for precisely these reasons. To ensure that there is understanding and agreement (areas to avoid, making good afterwards, etc). Farmers who are anti-hunting are left alone and no one goes near their land.

And of course there are people who live in the countryside who are anti-hunting. Not everyone outside the cities and suburbs supports hunting, and that's fine. Plenty do, however.

But the bigger point is more important, and you make it yourself - you accept that one way or another the fox gets it. Either by being shot (good luck with that but of course it happens) or snaring or gassing or being hunted by hounds.

And funnily enough of all of those methods the only one AFAIA that has had a whole enquiry dedicated to it is the last, hunting by hounds, and that enquiry determined that such activity was not cruel.

The enquiry determined there was not enough evidence to say whether it was cruel or not. That is a different thing.

Stark_Dawning said:

HYUFD said:

rottenborough said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Scott_xP said:

The Telegraph discrediting both "dead cats" deployed to save flailing Johnson feels like quite a significant moment. Especially since they seem custom-made for its readership. ~AA https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1531567821389549569/photo/1

Even the Brexitgraph doesn't like to be associated with an incompetent loser it seems. Rats and sinking ships

This isn't particularly new. There has been a steady stream of columnists attacking Johnson, particularly over failure to actually be a conservative for weeks now. Heath, Johnston, Timothy etc etc.

Of course the likelihood is if Johnson goes the Conservative Party will shift further right, especially on economics

Not necessarily. They might conclude that tax-and-spend populism plus Woke Wars is these days the only viable formula for the political Right. It just needs to be better managed.

TOPPING said:

Alistair said:

TOPPING said:

Alistair said:

IshmaelZ said:

Alistair said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

TOPPING said:

Carnyx said:

noneoftheabove said:

Dura_Ace said:

Heathener said:

Good piece on Johnson's 'red meat policy' lurch to the right:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/may/30/johnsons-red-meat-policy-proposals-are-telling-of-his-insecurity

"It is a moment often seen in the downward trajectory of embattled prime ministers: a whirl of new policy ideas intended to appeal to voters, but which are in fact more often aimed at placating their own MPs. Boris Johnson is, some would argue, approaching this point.

In recent days Downing Street has briefed in favour of grammar schools and imperial measurements. Earlier weeks saw forays into other Conservative comfort zones, including bashing the EU and talking up fossil fuels.

Such nostalgia politics is routinely promoted by Conservative backbenchers. But it is one of the paradoxes of Tory party politics that the more secure a prime minister is in office, the less they have to indulge these ideas."

If Johnson loses both by-elections he'll have to go Full Tonto and offer a vote on fox hunting.

Pritis 24 election manifesto will be led by the restoration of the death penalty, not just for cop killers but also random foxes.

Allowing fox-hunting seems morally unsound to me on two grounds, but why should I be surprised at anything this administration does?

a) Always look for any upper class/lower class differential in any 'morality'-driven regulation. Cf. divorce under the C of E of old (Scotland was a bit more sensible, not sure about Wales). In this case fox hunting is definitely toff territory, largely upper class/snobbish activity (albeit with quite a few prole followers) - but why allow nobby blood sports when banning working class ones such as cock fighting and bull baiting?

b) foxes obv don't like being hunted*, but cockerels are only too happy to have a scrap, like squaddies of different regiments in an Aldershot pub, so who's being unkind to whom?

*On empirical grounds. They run away. Cf. M. S. Dawkins's 1970s/1980s research on hens, which showed that they preferred not to live in a battery cage but in the more old fashioned alternative, simply by giving them the option.

There is plenty of treatment of animals which people disagree over. Look at the cracking social media campaign that VFC is conducting right now.

One of the criteria to be applied to any activity, from riding ponies to foxhunting to keeping goldfish to having a domestic dog to having a dairy herd to zapping a fly should be - is it cruel.

And it was determined that foxhunting was not cruel.

That said, now is not the time to have a vote to bring back foxhunting. Not least because it would be defeated. Badly.

Well said. People who think fox hunting was cruel never bothered to read the burns report because they were far too consumed by their prejudice and general hatred of genuinely rural people that don't share their plastic view of the countryside.

Quality erasure of "genuinely rural people" who think fox hunting is a bag of shite.

Or are you only genuinely rural if you think fox hunting is good?

The genuinely rural realise that death and suffering among foxes has rocketed since the hunting act because people used to want there to be some foxes. Now they don't farmers and pheasant shoots splat them with nightsights by the dozen. The wounded ones die of gangrene because they don't lick their wounds (only tamed canids do)

I am sure a countryman like you knows all that. But hey, increased animal suffering Vs spiting the toffs...

Yes, famously farmers upon seeing a fox would think "I could shoot this fucker worrying my livestock right now but I better leave it around for some wankers to chase in 3 months time".

It's more complicated than that. First off the hunt spends a lot of time visiting said farmer (who might easily hunt or have a hunting daughter/family himself) for precisely these reasons. To ensure that there is understanding and agreement (areas to avoid, making good afterwards, etc). Farmers who are anti-hunting are left alone and no one goes near their land.

And of course there are people who live in the countryside who are anti-hunting. Not everyone outside the cities and suburbs supports hunting, and that's fine. Plenty do, however.

But the bigger point is more important, and you make it yourself - you accept that one way or another the fox gets it. Either by being shot (good luck with that but of course it happens) or snaring or gassing or being hunted by hounds.

And funnily enough of all of those methods the only one AFAIA that has had a whole enquiry dedicated to it is the last, hunting by hounds, and that enquiry determined that such activity was not cruel.

The enquiry determined there was not enough evidence to say whether it was cruel or not. That is a different thing.

"In a later debate in the House of Lords, the inquiry chairman, Lord Burns, also stated that "Naturally, people ask whether we were implying that hunting is cruel... The short answer to that question is no. There was not sufficient verifiable evidence or data safely to reach views about cruelty. It is a complex area."[7]"

wiki

kinabalu said:

HYUFD said:

kinabalu said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

IshmaelZ said:

Dura_Ace said:

Heathener said:

Good piece on Johnson's 'red meat policy' lurch to the right:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/may/30/johnsons-red-meat-policy-proposals-are-telling-of-his-insecurity

"It is a moment often seen in the downward trajectory of embattled prime ministers: a whirl of new policy ideas intended to appeal to voters, but which are in fact more often aimed at placating their own MPs. Boris Johnson is, some would argue, approaching this point.

In recent days Downing Street has briefed in favour of grammar schools and imperial measurements. Earlier weeks saw forays into other Conservative comfort zones, including bashing the EU and talking up fossil fuels.

Such nostalgia politics is routinely promoted by Conservative backbenchers. But it is one of the paradoxes of Tory party politics that the more secure a prime minister is in office, the less they have to indulge these ideas."

If Johnson loses both by-elections he'll have to go Full Tonto and offer a vote on fox hunting.

Our best hope there is: monarchy abolished, SF start taking seats, hold whip hand in minority government. In the meantime there's always the Emerald Isle. Begorrah.

None of the 3 main party leaders now want to abolish the monarchy, nor is it even a priority for SF who just want to be governed by Dublin not London

Oh? Do the LDs want a republic?

Absolutely not, Davey supports our constitutional monarchy

You do know that Davey isn't god don't you. He doesn't decide LD policy.

62% of LD voters also want to keep the monarchy, significantly higher than the 43% of Labour voters who want to keep the monarchy even if not quite as high as the 86% of Conservative voters who want to keep the monarchy

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/05/21/young-britons-are-turning-their-backs-monarchy

It's not a massive issue for me but if perchance there was a Referendum on keeping the monarchy I think I'd vote No. That's a change of heart compared to say 10 years ago.

The reason? Because the institution we have with its pomp and scale is really a hangover from our grand imperial past. It feels out of time now. More than this, it feels absurd and just a touch embarrassing. I get that feeling more than I do the rather heavier sense of it reinforcing white supremacy and class privilege. I also think it infantilizes us a bit. Along with the harmless and positive aspects it does that. Which is not a great thing esp when we have a PM doing the same albeit in a different way.

So, on balance with the monarchy, a la Duncan Bannatyne on Dragons Den - it's a No from me.

We had a monarchy centuries before we had an Empire or even a Union, many nations without imperial pasts eg Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Jordan also have constitutional monarchies

You'd vote to keep this full monty anachronism then? No slimming down or reform?

Alistair said:

TOPPING said:

Alistair said:

IshmaelZ said:

Alistair said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

TOPPING said:

Carnyx said:

noneoftheabove said:

Dura_Ace said:

Heathener said:

Good piece on Johnson's 'red meat policy' lurch to the right:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/may/30/johnsons-red-meat-policy-proposals-are-telling-of-his-insecurity

"It is a moment often seen in the downward trajectory of embattled prime ministers: a whirl of new policy ideas intended to appeal to voters, but which are in fact more often aimed at placating their own MPs. Boris Johnson is, some would argue, approaching this point.

In recent days Downing Street has briefed in favour of grammar schools and imperial measurements. Earlier weeks saw forays into other Conservative comfort zones, including bashing the EU and talking up fossil fuels.

Such nostalgia politics is routinely promoted by Conservative backbenchers. But it is one of the paradoxes of Tory party politics that the more secure a prime minister is in office, the less they have to indulge these ideas."

If Johnson loses both by-elections he'll have to go Full Tonto and offer a vote on fox hunting.

Pritis 24 election manifesto will be led by the restoration of the death penalty, not just for cop killers but also random foxes.

Allowing fox-hunting seems morally unsound to me on two grounds, but why should I be surprised at anything this administration does?

a) Always look for any upper class/lower class differential in any 'morality'-driven regulation. Cf. divorce under the C of E of old (Scotland was a bit more sensible, not sure about Wales). In this case fox hunting is definitely toff territory, largely upper class/snobbish activity (albeit with quite a few prole followers) - but why allow nobby blood sports when banning working class ones such as cock fighting and bull baiting?

b) foxes obv don't like being hunted*, but cockerels are only too happy to have a scrap, like squaddies of different regiments in an Aldershot pub, so who's being unkind to whom?

*On empirical grounds. They run away. Cf. M. S. Dawkins's 1970s/1980s research on hens, which showed that they preferred not to live in a battery cage but in the more old fashioned alternative, simply by giving them the option.

There is plenty of treatment of animals which people disagree over. Look at the cracking social media campaign that VFC is conducting right now.

One of the criteria to be applied to any activity, from riding ponies to foxhunting to keeping goldfish to having a domestic dog to having a dairy herd to zapping a fly should be - is it cruel.

And it was determined that foxhunting was not cruel.

That said, now is not the time to have a vote to bring back foxhunting. Not least because it would be defeated. Badly.

Well said. People who think fox hunting was cruel never bothered to read the burns report because they were far too consumed by their prejudice and general hatred of genuinely rural people that don't share their plastic view of the countryside.

Quality erasure of "genuinely rural people" who think fox hunting is a bag of shite.

Or are you only genuinely rural if you think fox hunting is good?

The genuinely rural realise that death and suffering among foxes has rocketed since the hunting act because people used to want there to be some foxes. Now they don't farmers and pheasant shoots splat them with nightsights by the dozen. The wounded ones die of gangrene because they don't lick their wounds (only tamed canids do)

I am sure a countryman like you knows all that. But hey, increased animal suffering Vs spiting the toffs...

Yes, famously farmers upon seeing a fox would think "I could shoot this fucker worrying my livestock right now but I better leave it around for some wankers to chase in 3 months time".

It's more complicated than that. First off the hunt spends a lot of time visiting said farmer (who might easily hunt or have a hunting daughter/family himself) for precisely these reasons. To ensure that there is understanding and agreement (areas to avoid, making good afterwards, etc). Farmers who are anti-hunting are left alone and no one goes near their land.

And of course there are people who live in the countryside who are anti-hunting. Not everyone outside the cities and suburbs supports hunting, and that's fine. Plenty do, however.

But the bigger point is more important, and you make it yourself - you accept that one way or another the fox gets it. Either by being shot (good luck with that but of course it happens) or snaring or gassing or being hunted by hounds.

And funnily enough of all of those methods the only one AFAIA that has had a whole enquiry dedicated to it is the last, hunting by hounds, and that enquiry determined that such activity was not cruel.

The enquiry determined there was not enough evidence to say whether it was cruel or not. That is a different thing.

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

OldKingCole said:

HYUFD said:

Farooq said:

HYUFD said:

kinabalu said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

IshmaelZ said:

Dura_Ace said:

Heathener said:

Good piece on Johnson's 'red meat policy' lurch to the right:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/may/30/johnsons-red-meat-policy-proposals-are-telling-of-his-insecurity

"It is a moment often seen in the downward trajectory of embattled prime ministers: a whirl of new policy ideas intended to appeal to voters, but which are in fact more often aimed at placating their own MPs. Boris Johnson is, some would argue, approaching this point.

In recent days Downing Street has briefed in favour of grammar schools and imperial measurements. Earlier weeks saw forays into other Conservative comfort zones, including bashing the EU and talking up fossil fuels.

Such nostalgia politics is routinely promoted by Conservative backbenchers. But it is one of the paradoxes of Tory party politics that the more secure a prime minister is in office, the less they have to indulge these ideas."

If Johnson loses both by-elections he'll have to go Full Tonto and offer a vote on fox hunting.

Our best hope there is: monarchy abolished, SF start taking seats, hold whip hand in minority government. In the meantime there's always the Emerald Isle. Begorrah.

None of the 3 main party leaders now want to abolish the monarchy, nor is it even a priority for SF who just want to be governed by Dublin not London

Oh? Do the LDs want a republic?

Absolutely not, Davey supports our constitutional monarchy

You do know that Davey isn't god don't you. He doesn't decide LD policy.

62% of LD voters also want to keep the monarchy, significantly higher than the 43% of Labour voters who want to keep the monarchy even if not quite as high as the 86% of Conservative voters who want to keep the monarchy

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/05/21/young-britons-are-turning-their-backs-monarchy

It's not a massive issue for me but if perchance there was a Referendum on keeping the monarchy I think I'd vote No. That's a change of heart compared to say 10 years ago.

The reason? Because the institution we have with its pomp and scale is really a hangover from our grand imperial past. It feels out of time now. More than this, it feels absurd and just a touch embarrassing. I get that feeling more than I do the rather heavier sense of it reinforcing white supremacy and class privilege. I also think it infantilizes us a bit. Along with the harmless and positive aspects it does that. Which is not a great thing esp when we have a PM doing the same albeit in a different way.

So, on balance with the monarchy, a la Duncan Bannatyne on Dragons Den - it's a No from me.

We had a monarchy centuries before we had an Empire or even a Union, many nations without imperial pasts eg Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Jordan also have constitutional monarchies

Wait, you think Denmark doesn't have an imperial past?
Good god man, can you get ANYTHING right?

Compared to the Spanish Empire, the Russian Empire, the French Empire, the British Empire, the German Empires or even the Italian and Austrian empires no it doesn't.

Most of those are republics

That wasn't the question, anyway. Denmark's main 'imperialism' might be a bit further back, although the sovereign of Denmark was also that of Iceland until 1944 or so, and Norway until 1905.
In 'early modern' times Sweden was very aggressive in Mid and Eastern Europe.

That is little different to the UK union, it is not a grand global imperial past like that of Britain or Germany or France or even a large European empire like that of Austria.

Certainly being a republican because of your nation's imperial past is ludicrous, France had a big imperial past and is a republic with an imperial presidency, see Bastille Day

Some UK subjects might differ. They might quite like to be proper citizens instead of being expected to cringe to people who went to posh schools and posh unis.

TheScreamingEagles said:

For Sunday I think I'll publish a piece reminding you that the Conservative Party uses a form of quasi AV to elect their party leader.

IshmaelZ said:

Sandpit said:

IshmaelZ said:

"I'm not leaving until the bailiffs come". That was the latest email sent to me from a tenant. This is the third tenant this year I am evicting due to rent arrears.

In my entire landlord career of 20 years, I have never seen an environment turn so quickly and so badly – and that includes the financial crisis and pandemic. The amount of money owed in rental arrears is in the thousands of pounds and quickly rising. Supposedly good tenants are souring quickly and I am left wondering who I can trust."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/buy-to-let/had-evict-three-tenants-year-going-get-worse/

very very ominous

That’s worrying, especially that this downturn doesn’t appear (yet!) to have high unemployment associated with it.

Is it a warning of unemployment to come, or is it a regulatory issue, that tenants have collectively realised they can get away for months without paying rent before they get evicted?

Markets including markets in loopholes tend to be efficient. If you want your theory to stand up you need to point to some recent, major, tenant friendly (ie UnConservative) change in the law. I don't know of any. I f it were a longer standing thing they'd have been doing it already.