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These are the numbers that should really panic Number 10 – politicalbetting.com

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  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,157
    edited May 2022

    MattW said:

    dixiedean said:

    Top tip.
    Professional landlords. Solve your financial problems by simply getting a proper job.

    Why is providing high quality housing services not a proper job?

    Houses don't maintain or invest in themselves. Traditionally 15-20% or so of the income goes on maintenance and investment, often done in advance during a full refurbishment with a 10 year+ return period.
    So they’re doing 15-20% of a proper job?

    What?

    You think that businesses are only entitled to one element of their business expenses, and no income?

    So a butcher is only entitled to the money paid for meat supplies, and not the revenue that pays for the shop, the staff expenses, the tax and the maintenance of the finance which allowed investment in the business?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,929
    Eabhal said:

    Some SNP types are blaming Unionists for the failure of the census. Could get quite interesting if Sturgeon takes that line too.

    Decoupling it from the English one seemed so petty. And their argument for doing so, that Covid would reduce participation, has been shown to be completely wrong.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,632
    edited May 2022
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://order-order.com/2022/05/31/john-mcdonnell-defends-comrade-sunaks-inflationary-cash-splashing-from-labour-criticism/

    If Tory MPs weren’t comfortable with Comrade Sunak’s £21 billion cost of living package announced last week, they should check out the bizarre through-the-looking-glass situation on Twitter this morning, as John McDonnell defends the Tory chancellor’s spending plans against attacks from Labour that it might cause greater inflation.

    Pretty much sums up where we're at, to be honest.

    Yup, I said this is socialism.

    Mrs Thatcher is spinning in her grave.
    My dad's reaction when he visited us yesterday on the windfall tax "supposedly the party of low taxes", he has voted Tory for 40+ years and was a member for 30+, Boris and Rishi are losing core voters.
    I said last week that I'm expecting rent controls next from this government.
    I've honestly never known a Tory government to simply give up on supply side economics. It's as if Rishi has just thrown away all of the first year economics text books and decided that pumping up demand is going to solve the inflation problem. Completely mad.
    It's frankly terrifying how much of Labour's 1983 manifesto and Corbyn's went dreams this government are actually delivering.

    I remember how we used to criticise Labour for protecting their voters in the public sector and the Tories are doing even worse protecting the oldies.

    That NI rankles, I mean I don't mind paying, but oldies get exempted from it.

    Apply the same level of taper rate we do for universal credit on incomes for pensioners earning more than the state pension.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639

    Julian Jessop 🇬🇧 🇺🇦
    @julianHjessop
    ·
    1h
    Another reason why the UK economy should avoid a #recession...

    This morning's Bank of England money and credit data confirm that the household sector as a whole (not everyone, of course) still has plenty of excess savings accumulated during the pandemic 👇

    https://twitter.com/julianHjessop/status/1531571901251854336

    It is reflected in the fact that discretionary spending is still happening to a very large extent.

    I keep hearing about a cost of living crisis, compare now with the early 80's, early 90s, 2008, those must have been a cost of living armageddon.

    Millions of ordinary people have plenty of money at the moment.
    It's just that nowadays so many people want a handout, want others to take responsibility and won't stand on their own two feet! And this government is encouraging that mentality!!

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402

    dixiedean said:

    This is a tad worrying, from Cummings, in the UnHerd interview....

    "And they actually could get somebody worse: Liz Truss would be even worse than Boris. She’s about as close to properly crackers as anybody I’ve met in Parliament."

    My father and I had a discussion on the phone this morning, i brought up Boris and that i think its game over. He's a non voter/occasional Tory (voted Tory 2019 and 2010 but not bothered in 15 or 17 and hadn't voted prior since 92 he tells me, but he always votes for a councillor (of all stripes))
    Anyway, he is virulently anti Truss (as much as he now despises Johnson)
    FWIW, the Woolie's Dad tip is Ben Wallace 'he seems a good bloke'
    Thing about Wallace is. He may be good. He may not. The only job he's had is Defence. It's ridiculously low profile. Then there's a War. He can't really lose there. He hasn't had a difficult gig in public.
    Hie expenses in 2008 may be an issue too.
    Fourth highest trougher in an ultra-competitive field.
    He was a campaigner for expenses transparency though and he wasn't accused of duck house silliness, just a large bill.
    Yeah, hed be a risk but, on quick reflection after Dads comments, i think he might be an option as relatively unknown and thus clearer of taint. His military service wont hurt him.
    If the Tories want to play safe, stop the LD advance as much as possible, give up some red wall ground (but maybe retain the likes of Bishop Auckland etc) and restrict 2024 to 'at worst' opposition against a minority labour govt they'll go for Hunt
    Tbf. I can think of twenty worse in the current Cabinet.
    My issue is this. He's been an MP since 2005. Took him 14 years to make Cabinet. 10 years to make a Junior Minister. Hardly a fast track high flyer. Did no one spot the talent of a future PM for a decade?
    He's had the easiest wicket in government since then. Nowt much to do during the pandemic. Then a War with a policy on which there isn't any disagreement, which thrusts him into the media spotlight.
    He's good there. But he hasn't taken a single difficult decision as far as I can tell.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,564

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://order-order.com/2022/05/31/john-mcdonnell-defends-comrade-sunaks-inflationary-cash-splashing-from-labour-criticism/

    If Tory MPs weren’t comfortable with Comrade Sunak’s £21 billion cost of living package announced last week, they should check out the bizarre through-the-looking-glass situation on Twitter this morning, as John McDonnell defends the Tory chancellor’s spending plans against attacks from Labour that it might cause greater inflation.

    Pretty much sums up where we're at, to be honest.

    Yup, I said this is socialism.

    Mrs Thatcher is spinning in her grave.
    My dad's reaction when he visited us yesterday on the windfall tax "supposedly the party of low taxes", he has voted Tory for 40+ years and was a member for 30+, Boris and Rishi are losing core voters.
    I said last week that I'm expecting rent controls next from this government.
    I've honestly never known a Tory government to simply give up on supply side economics. It's as if Rishi has just thrown away all of the first year economics text books and decided that pumping up demand is going to solve the inflation problem. Completely mad.
    Hes given labour a double digit lead as party of low tax. Quite insane.
    Does anybody think that after a year in Government, Labour would still be thought of as "low tax"?

    Not a cat in hell's chance.

  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,059

    Oh!! This is massive n'est pas?



    Steven Swinford
    @Steven_Swinford
    ·
    1h
    There’s a myth doing rounds that once Brady has got letters to trigger a vote he goes back to each Tory MP to check with them

    This is untrue - when threshold is crossed vote it triggered

    It makes Chief Whip’s plan to submit 10 letters and withdraw them to save PM precarious

    N’est-ce pas, with a “-ce”, confusingly.

    It’s a bit of bizarre system. You feel it should at least have a reset process, like at the beginning of the Parliamentary term, all older letters are thrown away and people have to re-send if they still feel that way.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,929

    Oh!! This is massive n'est pas?



    Steven Swinford
    @Steven_Swinford
    ·
    1h
    There’s a myth doing rounds that once Brady has got letters to trigger a vote he goes back to each Tory MP to check with them

    This is untrue - when threshold is crossed vote it triggered

    It makes Chief Whip’s plan to submit 10 letters and withdraw them to save PM precarious

    N’est-ce pas, with a “-ce”, confusingly.

    It’s a bit of bizarre system. You feel it should at least have a reset process, like at the beginning of the Parliamentary term, all older letters are thrown away and people have to re-send if they still feel that way.
    The reset system is MPs deciding they once again have confidence in the leader, and withdrawing their letter. No need for it to be automatic.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    Sandpit said:

    Trans activist who heckled Nadhim Zahawi off Warwick University campus is the son of Ed Balls and Labour Shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper

    In video posted by the Warwick Labour society, Joel Cooper interrupts the Education Secretary's Q&A to heckle him over his stance on trans rights. He then sits down after his monologue to cheers from fellow Labour activists

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10870697/Trans-activist-heckled-Nadhim-Zahawi-Warwick-University-campus-son-Yvette-Cooper.html

    I believe there was a bit of a dust up yesterday on here with at the time unsupported claims there was a Labour angle involved in this story.

    Ah yes, more Tory bigots stoking a culture war.
    I'm shocked*, frankly, as an alumnus.

    *That Warwick has a Conservative Association :wink:

    (More seriously, the area where most of the chanting can be seen is public - to students/staff, at least - space within the arts centre and one of the thoroughfares of the university, if I identify it correctly. People should be free to protest there, as they should be outside the building, if they wish. Would be good to see them moved on though if causing an obstruction and/or disrupting events within the meeting room, e.g. if the sound carried - I seem to recall two sets of doors to the theatre, so may not have carried through. I'd also like to think they could do a bit better than "Tory scum". I do also find it distasteful and unfair to single out Cooper simply because of who his parents are).
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191
    edited May 2022

    Oh!! This is massive n'est pas?



    Steven Swinford
    @Steven_Swinford
    ·
    1h
    There’s a myth doing rounds that once Brady has got letters to trigger a vote he goes back to each Tory MP to check with them

    This is untrue - when threshold is crossed vote it triggered

    It makes Chief Whip’s plan to submit 10 letters and withdraw them to save PM precarious

    N’est-ce pas, with a “-ce”, confusingly.

    It’s a bit of bizarre system. You feel it should at least have a reset process, like at the beginning of the Parliamentary term, all older letters are thrown away and people have to re-send if they still feel that way.
    MPs can withdraw their letter at any time. Old lady Brady seems to be a fair enough arbiter on these matters.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    ydoethur said:

    PJH said:

    Heathener said:

    I'd think Hunt and Wallace appeal to the same "serious common sense" sector of the party, which is probably more represented in the Parliamentary party than the wider membership, who are more into "serious conservatism". So I'd have thought a Hunt vs Truss final was more likely than a Hunt vs Wallace one. But others here are better-placed to judge, eh?

    Certainly betting on a VONC happening seems a strong option, but beware of Betfair's market on this - you're betting on whether the VONC succeeds, perhaps a more iffy proposition.

    A new leader will certainly give a temporary bounce - lots of people like BigG and dyedwoolie are natural Conservatives who would return to the fold. But the situation is objectively difficult, so the new person will struggle to come up with bright new prospects. From that viewpoint, the Tories might be best off with a change next year, by which time the energy price spike may have unwound, giving the new leader an aura of miraculous success. Either way it does seem to me that the dominant public view is that the Conservatives have run out of steam, much as they felt about Labour in 2009-10.

    Tbf Nick even my dislike of Labour is starting to feel like not enough regardless of what the Tories do for next time.
    I quite like imperial measurements, so does my butcher for example, however bringing them back in some triumphant flag waving weirdness whilst we are mired in war, economic crisis and coming out of a really depressing 2 years makes the Cones Hotline look good politics.
    Indeed.

    The thing is, we already use a mixture of metric and imperial as it is. It may not be neat and tidy but we're used to it, from old to young. No one is suddenly going to be thrilled to see £7 a gallon petrol signs appearing.

    If David Canzini, or whichever muppet dreamt this up, thinks it's going to fix Boris Johnson's popularity then they are stark raving bonkers. Or working for the Opposition.
    I'd be happy to see £7 per gallon. That would be a substantial discount on what I paid last night. £120 to fill up... Gulp!
    What do you drive, a chieftain tank?
    Other than my Tesla, I can't think of a car I have had in the last 5 years that hasn't cost £120 to fill up lol.
    With the price of electricity, that will soon cost £550 to fill up.
    It is still about 1/3 of cost of petrol per mile even on a supercharger. Even less if charged on low rate economy 7 over night.
    Have got a Tesla Model Y on order which I have deferred back into Q3 whilst awaiting work stuff to become more clear. Moving car costs to pre tax from post tax makes a lot of sense. Only problem is that I am becoming more attached to my Outlander PHEV now that I've reserved its replacement.

    Fuel costs are only one part of the total cost - and however great pence per mile may look at the moment on leccy vs dino juice, that equation will keep changing.
    It was the BIK that sold it to me. That and the absurd acceleration! It is also very good to drive, and in spite of what the plonkerish CEO of BMW said, easily as good as any of the German cars I have had.
    I note it's reported BMW are considering moving to a cylindrical battery format for their EVs.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,632
    Hurrah for the Aussies.

    Australia’s new Labor prime minister has created an “assistant minister for the republic”, sparking celebrations among those who wish to end the Queen’s role as head of state.

    Anthony Albanese announced that Matt Thistlethwaite, a Sydney MP, would take the role. Previous Labor leaders have promised a referendum on removing the Queen as Australia’s head of state but Albanese, a long-time republican, did not make the promise a feature of his election campaign before his victory in last week’s general election.

    “We are on our way!” tweeted the author and former rugby international Peter FitzSimons, a prominent republican. “Let the record show, for the first time in the history of the Commonwealth, Australia has a member of the government singularly devoted to removing the Crown, and helping Australia become a republic,” he added.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/australias-anthony-albanese-appoints-minister-for-republic-as-debate-to-remove-queen-grows-zsh653kwb

    Means I will no longer be able to sing 'God save YOUR Queen' to the Aussies at cricket and rugby matches.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    MISTY said:

    Leon said:

    As the Labour lead has increased since Rishi Sunak gave everyone £9,000, a bag of second hand salt, and a tiny inflatable plastic wildebeest, one has to wonder what would have happened if he had NOT been so generous. Would the Labour lead be 20 points plus? Or have the voters just banked the money and decided, Well, the Tories are mad spaffing socialists, I might as well support Labour - ie, would the Tories be doing better if they were meaner and more Tory?

    It is certainly possible

    When in power, labour can be relied on to be labour.

    The tories, by their actions over the last two and half years, cannot be relied to on be anything. From the moment they adopted the Chinese Communist Party policy of lockdown, on top of the Maoist arbitrary hard target of Net Zero by 2050 At All Costs, they were finished.

    And I think they are finished. Not just now, and not just for a generation. For ever.

    How could they ever sell themselves to the electorate as anything again? It would be like Hal the computer in A Space Odyssey telling Dave he was alright now.

    I'm feeling much better now voters. I favour low taxation. I favour personal responsibility. I want a small state and fiscal discipline. I want law and order. Mr sThatcher is my heroine. All as the voters shut the whole thing down.

    A new party/brand on the right will have to replace them.

    The Tories are indeed in deep shit, but both sides have tremendous problems

    Here is just one for Labour. Brexit

    If the polls continue fair for Starmer, and the Tories keep smashing themselves in the face with a shovel, he could actually win a majority. What would he do with that majority? Suddenly he has all the reins of power, he doesn’t have to rely on the Nats or the Libs.

    In that case I think he would come under intense pressure to reverse Brexit in some form. Not immediately rejoin, not yet, but re-enter the Single Market, accept Freedom of Movement again. Everyone around him is a Remainer, he is a Remainer, his friends and allies: they are all Remainers. They won’t be able to resist moving closer to the EU. They might be able to sell it as making life easier for traders and exporters, etc etc

    And that way lies much trouble
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,260
    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    tlg86 said:

    Leon said:

    An authoritative account of the Disaster of St Denis


    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/may/31/champions-league-paris-final-fiasco-triggers-hillsborough-survivor-trauma?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    What strikes me is the pathetic inertia and complacency of the UEFA and FIFA officials, even when told of the horrible chaos outside the stadium, going on there and then. Shameful

    The Olympic Games will be fun in 2024.
    Rugby World Cup there first. Saturday will ultimately save France from a worse bashing - they will throw everything at it to ensure nothing like it happens during the World Cup - I imagine the police will be ringing the whole area to avoid the mugging etc rather than focussing onwards on the fans.

    If that sort of behaviour happened at the World Cup then it would point to the police/authorities but if they do everything to avoid it they will no doubt say “see, we told you it was those naughty Liverpool fans”.

    I see the French sports minister has doubled down blaming it on Liverpool “letting their fans out into the wild”. If that’s the case they seem to have encountered the savages of St Denis on this safari. Who knew that the suburbs of Paris were the “wilds”?
    The French public and media are not buying the minister’s feeble diversions, however. He’s getting fierce criticism from Left and Right. The Left are blaming the government and police, the Right are blaming the scum of the suburbs, and the socialists that try to excuse them

    Virtually no one - in France - is blaming the Liverpool fans. Across all the newspapers it is “France wins the trophy for incompetence “ or “France is humiliated on the world stage”. They are taking it seriously and it is still front page news

    And the Spanish media is filled with similar accounts of chaos and mugging gangs.

    Must be quite a shock for Macron and friends that the strategy of "1) Blame the Brits" followed by "2) Lie your heads off" has stopped working.

    Even France 24 are calling them out on it.

    I think the thing that will hurt is questions about whether this will happen at the 2024 Olympics. eg Will anybody standing in a queue or presenting a ticket at a turnstyle at Paris 2024 be at risk of random assault by Police Officers with Pepper Spray, and how will such police officers be held to account.
    Why they built the French national stadium in - literally - the worst, most dangerous part of France - is quite the mystery. I guess they hoped it would boost the area?

    Now it’s a source of national humiliation
    It made no sense at all to build the stadium where they did, without also clearing the slums actively regenerating the whole area around it.
    Indeed. Stratford was hardly a desirable location when we built ours.
    The French decided to take the equivalent of a random 150m x 100m piece of land between Brixton and Streatham, and put the national stadium there, with no other improvements to the area, making sure that all the stadium’s visitors would have to park in or walk through the dodgiest part of the city to get there.
    Bit harsh on Brixton and Streatham!
    St Denis is far worse than Brixton or streatham. There isn’t really an equivalent in London, not even Tottenham - it’s not just the deprivation, there is a seething hatred of the authorities and police, all of it mixed in a toxic, lawless brew of Islamism and radicalism
    I talked with someone in the compliance world yesterday. He reckons that secondary markets/touts for football matches are heavily used for money laundering.

    As banking and other areas have tightened up (somewhat!) the bad guys are searching for new avenues.

    Football tickets with very high faces values are perfect for this. As is the ability to sell them for actual cash. The easy to forge bit then appeals to the criminals who think of it as increasing the take on the laundering.

    See the career of Rudi Kurniwan

    While this fuck up doesn’t seem to be mostly about fake tickets, this is something that needs dealing with.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402
    edited May 2022
    Leon said:

    MISTY said:

    Leon said:

    As the Labour lead has increased since Rishi Sunak gave everyone £9,000, a bag of second hand salt, and a tiny inflatable plastic wildebeest, one has to wonder what would have happened if he had NOT been so generous. Would the Labour lead be 20 points plus? Or have the voters just banked the money and decided, Well, the Tories are mad spaffing socialists, I might as well support Labour - ie, would the Tories be doing better if they were meaner and more Tory?

    It is certainly possible

    When in power, labour can be relied on to be labour.

    The tories, by their actions over the last two and half years, cannot be relied to on be anything. From the moment they adopted the Chinese Communist Party policy of lockdown, on top of the Maoist arbitrary hard target of Net Zero by 2050 At All Costs, they were finished.

    And I think they are finished. Not just now, and not just for a generation. For ever.

    How could they ever sell themselves to the electorate as anything again? It would be like Hal the computer in A Space Odyssey telling Dave he was alright now.

    I'm feeling much better now voters. I favour low taxation. I favour personal responsibility. I want a small state and fiscal discipline. I want law and order. Mr sThatcher is my heroine. All as the voters shut the whole thing down.

    A new party/brand on the right will have to replace them.

    The Tories are indeed in deep shit, but both sides have tremendous problems

    Here is just one for Labour. Brexit

    If the polls continue fair for Starmer, and the Tories keep smashing themselves in the face with a shovel, he could actually win a majority. What would he do with that majority? Suddenly he has all the reins of power, he doesn’t have to rely on the Nats or the Libs.

    In that case I think he would come under intense pressure to reverse Brexit in some form. Not immediately rejoin, not yet, but re-enter the Single Market, accept Freedom of Movement again. Everyone around him is a Remainer, he is a Remainer, his friends and allies: they are all Remainers. They won’t be able to resist moving closer to the EU. They might be able to sell it as making life easier for traders and exporters, etc etc

    And that way lies much trouble
    No he wouldn't.
    Brexit is over.
    And we're nowhere near majority land anyways.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    This is a tad worrying, from Cummings, in the UnHerd interview....

    "And they actually could get somebody worse: Liz Truss would be even worse than Boris. She’s about as close to properly crackers as anybody I’ve met in Parliament."

    My father and I had a discussion on the phone this morning, i brought up Boris and that i think its game over. He's a non voter/occasional Tory (voted Tory 2019 and 2010 but not bothered in 15 or 17 and hadn't voted prior since 92 he tells me, but he always votes for a councillor (of all stripes))
    Anyway, he is virulently anti Truss (as much as he now despises Johnson)
    FWIW, the Woolie's Dad tip is Ben Wallace 'he seems a good bloke'
    Thing about Wallace is. He may be good. He may not. The only job he's had is Defence. It's ridiculously low profile. Then there's a War. He can't really lose there. He hasn't had a difficult gig in public.
    Hie expenses in 2008 may be an issue too.
    Fourth highest trougher in an ultra-competitive field.
    He was a campaigner for expenses transparency though and he wasn't accused of duck house silliness, just a large bill.
    Yeah, hed be a risk but, on quick reflection after Dads comments, i think he might be an option as relatively unknown and thus clearer of taint. His military service wont hurt him.
    If the Tories want to play safe, stop the LD advance as much as possible, give up some red wall ground (but maybe retain the likes of Bishop Auckland etc) and restrict 2024 to 'at worst' opposition against a minority labour govt they'll go for Hunt
    Tbf. I can think of twenty worse in the current Cabinet.
    My issue is this. He's been an MP since 2005. Took him 14 years to make Cabinet. 10 years to make a Junior Minister. Hardly a fast track high flyer. Did no one spot the talent of a future PM for a decade?
    He's had the easiest wicket in government since then. Nowt much to do during the pandemic. Then a War with a policy on which there isn't any disagreement, which thrusts him into the media spotlight.
    He's good there. But he hasn't taken a single difficult decision as far as I can tell.
    A big risk, yes. But less baggage with which to be blown off course.
    If he is a a decent bloke as Dad suggests, maybe we need that as a country to settle down in the face of crises. Get a decent team and face off the crises whilst the scandal fest dissipates
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    edited May 2022
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    PJH said:

    Heathener said:

    I'd think Hunt and Wallace appeal to the same "serious common sense" sector of the party, which is probably more represented in the Parliamentary party than the wider membership, who are more into "serious conservatism". So I'd have thought a Hunt vs Truss final was more likely than a Hunt vs Wallace one. But others here are better-placed to judge, eh?

    Certainly betting on a VONC happening seems a strong option, but beware of Betfair's market on this - you're betting on whether the VONC succeeds, perhaps a more iffy proposition.

    A new leader will certainly give a temporary bounce - lots of people like BigG and dyedwoolie are natural Conservatives who would return to the fold. But the situation is objectively difficult, so the new person will struggle to come up with bright new prospects. From that viewpoint, the Tories might be best off with a change next year, by which time the energy price spike may have unwound, giving the new leader an aura of miraculous success. Either way it does seem to me that the dominant public view is that the Conservatives have run out of steam, much as they felt about Labour in 2009-10.

    Tbf Nick even my dislike of Labour is starting to feel like not enough regardless of what the Tories do for next time.
    I quite like imperial measurements, so does my butcher for example, however bringing them back in some triumphant flag waving weirdness whilst we are mired in war, economic crisis and coming out of a really depressing 2 years makes the Cones Hotline look good politics.
    Indeed.

    The thing is, we already use a mixture of metric and imperial as it is. It may not be neat and tidy but we're used to it, from old to young. No one is suddenly going to be thrilled to see £7 a gallon petrol signs appearing.

    If David Canzini, or whichever muppet dreamt this up, thinks it's going to fix Boris Johnson's popularity then they are stark raving bonkers. Or working for the Opposition.
    I'd be happy to see £7 per gallon. That would be a substantial discount on what I paid last night. £120 to fill up... Gulp!
    What do you drive, a chieftain tank?
    Other than my Tesla, I can't think of a car I have had in the last 5 years that hasn't cost £120 to fill up lol.
    With the price of electricity, that will soon cost £550 to fill up.
    It is still about 1/3 of cost of petrol per mile even on a supercharger. Even less if charged on low rate economy 7 over night.
    Have got a Tesla Model Y on order which I have deferred back into Q3 whilst awaiting work stuff to become more clear. Moving car costs to pre tax from post tax makes a lot of sense. Only problem is that I am becoming more attached to my Outlander PHEV now that I've reserved its replacement.

    Fuel costs are only one part of the total cost - and however great pence per mile may look at the moment on leccy vs dino juice, that equation will keep changing.
    It was the BIK that sold it to me. That and the absurd acceleration! It is also very good to drive, and in spite of what the plonkerish CEO of BMW said, easily as good as any of the German cars I have had.
    I note it's reported BMW are considering moving to a cylindrical battery format for their EVs.
    Like this?
    image

    (As this is pedant central, yes I do know that's a cell, not a battery!)
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Meanwhile, this is interesting, even if one doesn't believe a single word of it.

    https://unherd.com/2022/05/dominic-cummings-i-dont-like-parties/

    The direct quotes of shit that Johnson has said about money, etc sound all too believable.

    The rest of it where he tries to market himself as a cross between Stafford Beer and Leclerc Du Tremblay is less convincing.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,632
    Excellent point in The Times.

    Some 29 have openly questioned Johnson’s leadership, with a further 15 publicly criticising him since the publication of Sue Gray’s report into parties in Downing Street during lockdown.

    It may appear that Johnson is safe. However, some Tory MPs are understood to have submitted letters without publicly declaring that they have done so. In 2018, only 27 Tory MPs had gone public with their demands for a confidence vote in Theresa May when the threshold of 48 at the time was met, triggering a ballot.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/who-are-the-tory-rebels-and-what-have-they-said-about-boris-johnson-gmx25ltlw
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310
    Leon said:

    MISTY said:

    Leon said:

    As the Labour lead has increased since Rishi Sunak gave everyone £9,000, a bag of second hand salt, and a tiny inflatable plastic wildebeest, one has to wonder what would have happened if he had NOT been so generous. Would the Labour lead be 20 points plus? Or have the voters just banked the money and decided, Well, the Tories are mad spaffing socialists, I might as well support Labour - ie, would the Tories be doing better if they were meaner and more Tory?

    It is certainly possible

    When in power, labour can be relied on to be labour.

    The tories, by their actions over the last two and half years, cannot be relied to on be anything. From the moment they adopted the Chinese Communist Party policy of lockdown, on top of the Maoist arbitrary hard target of Net Zero by 2050 At All Costs, they were finished.

    And I think they are finished. Not just now, and not just for a generation. For ever.

    How could they ever sell themselves to the electorate as anything again? It would be like Hal the computer in A Space Odyssey telling Dave he was alright now.

    I'm feeling much better now voters. I favour low taxation. I favour personal responsibility. I want a small state and fiscal discipline. I want law and order. Mr sThatcher is my heroine. All as the voters shut the whole thing down.

    A new party/brand on the right will have to replace them.

    The Tories are indeed in deep shit, but both sides have tremendous problems

    Here is just one for Labour. Brexit

    If the polls continue fair for Starmer, and the Tories keep smashing themselves in the face with a shovel, he could actually win a majority. What would he do with that majority? Suddenly he has all the reins of power, he doesn’t have to rely on the Nats or the Libs.

    In that case I think he would come under intense pressure to reverse Brexit in some form. Not immediately rejoin, not yet, but re-enter the Single Market, accept Freedom of Movement again. Everyone around him is a Remainer, he is a Remainer, his friends and allies: they are all Remainers. They won’t be able to resist moving closer to the EU. They might be able to sell it as making life easier for traders and exporters, etc etc

    And that way lies much trouble
    Brexit was a manifesto of madness. A policy designed for gullible fools. The only thing worse would now be to try and reverse it. It isn't going to happen. If that is the only straw that The Clown has to cling to then Labour will win a majority.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,260
    Pulpstar said:

    Who runs the airports ?
    Seem to be thick as mince.

    The airports are run for the benefit of

    1) the owners
    2) the airlines
    3) the security people
    4) the various retailers.
    .
    .
    187) the passengers
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,632
    MISTY said:

    Leon said:

    As the Labour lead has increased since Rishi Sunak gave everyone £9,000, a bag of second hand salt, and a tiny inflatable plastic wildebeest, one has to wonder what would have happened if he had NOT been so generous. Would the Labour lead be 20 points plus? Or have the voters just banked the money and decided, Well, the Tories are mad spaffing socialists, I might as well support Labour - ie, would the Tories be doing better if they were meaner and more Tory?

    It is certainly possible

    When in power, labour can be relied on to be labour.

    The tories, by their actions over the last two and half years, cannot be relied to on be anything. From the moment they adopted the Chinese Communist Party policy of lockdown, on top of the Maoist arbitrary hard target of Net Zero by 2050 At All Costs, they were finished.

    And I think they are finished. Not just now, and not just for a generation. For ever.

    How could they ever sell themselves to the electorate as anything again? It would be like Hal the computer in A Space Odyssey telling Dave he was alright now.

    I'm feeling much better now voters. I favour low taxation. I favour personal responsibility. I want a small state and fiscal discipline. I want law and order. Mr sThatcher is my heroine. All as the voters shut the whole thing down.

    A new party/brand on the right will have to replace them.

    I must have missed the bit where the UK government welded the houses of citizens?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://order-order.com/2022/05/31/john-mcdonnell-defends-comrade-sunaks-inflationary-cash-splashing-from-labour-criticism/

    If Tory MPs weren’t comfortable with Comrade Sunak’s £21 billion cost of living package announced last week, they should check out the bizarre through-the-looking-glass situation on Twitter this morning, as John McDonnell defends the Tory chancellor’s spending plans against attacks from Labour that it might cause greater inflation.

    Pretty much sums up where we're at, to be honest.

    Yup, I said this is socialism.

    Mrs Thatcher is spinning in her grave.
    My dad's reaction when he visited us yesterday on the windfall tax "supposedly the party of low taxes", he has voted Tory for 40+ years and was a member for 30+, Boris and Rishi are losing core voters.
    I said last week that I'm expecting rent controls next from this government.
    I've honestly never known a Tory government to simply give up on supply side economics. It's as if Rishi has just thrown away all of the first year economics text books and decided that pumping up demand is going to solve the inflation problem. Completely mad.
    Hes given labour a double digit lead as party of low tax. Quite insane.
    Does anybody think that after a year in Government, Labour would still be thought of as "low tax"?

    Not a cat in hell's chance.

    Well, no, but letting them be thought that now is helping them in to dash those hopes later
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    This is a tad worrying, from Cummings, in the UnHerd interview....

    "And they actually could get somebody worse: Liz Truss would be even worse than Boris. She’s about as close to properly crackers as anybody I’ve met in Parliament."

    My father and I had a discussion on the phone this morning, i brought up Boris and that i think its game over. He's a non voter/occasional Tory (voted Tory 2019 and 2010 but not bothered in 15 or 17 and hadn't voted prior since 92 he tells me, but he always votes for a councillor (of all stripes))
    Anyway, he is virulently anti Truss (as much as he now despises Johnson)
    FWIW, the Woolie's Dad tip is Ben Wallace 'he seems a good bloke'
    I suspect Wallace would last about 10 minutes, if he were actually made leader, before revealing his complete inadequacy for the step up from minister to PM.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    PJH said:

    Heathener said:

    I'd think Hunt and Wallace appeal to the same "serious common sense" sector of the party, which is probably more represented in the Parliamentary party than the wider membership, who are more into "serious conservatism". So I'd have thought a Hunt vs Truss final was more likely than a Hunt vs Wallace one. But others here are better-placed to judge, eh?

    Certainly betting on a VONC happening seems a strong option, but beware of Betfair's market on this - you're betting on whether the VONC succeeds, perhaps a more iffy proposition.

    A new leader will certainly give a temporary bounce - lots of people like BigG and dyedwoolie are natural Conservatives who would return to the fold. But the situation is objectively difficult, so the new person will struggle to come up with bright new prospects. From that viewpoint, the Tories might be best off with a change next year, by which time the energy price spike may have unwound, giving the new leader an aura of miraculous success. Either way it does seem to me that the dominant public view is that the Conservatives have run out of steam, much as they felt about Labour in 2009-10.

    Tbf Nick even my dislike of Labour is starting to feel like not enough regardless of what the Tories do for next time.
    I quite like imperial measurements, so does my butcher for example, however bringing them back in some triumphant flag waving weirdness whilst we are mired in war, economic crisis and coming out of a really depressing 2 years makes the Cones Hotline look good politics.
    Indeed.

    The thing is, we already use a mixture of metric and imperial as it is. It may not be neat and tidy but we're used to it, from old to young. No one is suddenly going to be thrilled to see £7 a gallon petrol signs appearing.

    If David Canzini, or whichever muppet dreamt this up, thinks it's going to fix Boris Johnson's popularity then they are stark raving bonkers. Or working for the Opposition.
    I'd be happy to see £7 per gallon. That would be a substantial discount on what I paid last night. £120 to fill up... Gulp!
    What do you drive, a chieftain tank?
    Other than my Tesla, I can't think of a car I have had in the last 5 years that hasn't cost £120 to fill up lol.
    With the price of electricity, that will soon cost £550 to fill up.
    It is still about 1/3 of cost of petrol per mile even on a supercharger. Even less if charged on low rate economy 7 over night.
    Have got a Tesla Model Y on order which I have deferred back into Q3 whilst awaiting work stuff to become more clear. Moving car costs to pre tax from post tax makes a lot of sense. Only problem is that I am becoming more attached to my Outlander PHEV now that I've reserved its replacement.

    Fuel costs are only one part of the total cost - and however great pence per mile may look at the moment on leccy vs dino juice, that equation will keep changing.
    It was the BIK that sold it to me. That and the absurd acceleration! It is also very good to drive, and in spite of what the plonkerish CEO of BMW said, easily as good as any of the German cars I have had.
    I note it's reported BMW are considering moving to a cylindrical battery format for their EVs.
    The big problem for all competitors to Tesla have is that they don't have the charger network. Other EV users I know have had serious problems with charging. I have had none with my Tesla. Maybe I have been lucky, but I have never had to wait. Famous last words!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    MISTY said:

    Leon said:

    As the Labour lead has increased since Rishi Sunak gave everyone £9,000, a bag of second hand salt, and a tiny inflatable plastic wildebeest, one has to wonder what would have happened if he had NOT been so generous. Would the Labour lead be 20 points plus? Or have the voters just banked the money and decided, Well, the Tories are mad spaffing socialists, I might as well support Labour - ie, would the Tories be doing better if they were meaner and more Tory?

    It is certainly possible

    When in power, labour can be relied on to be labour.

    The tories, by their actions over the last two and half years, cannot be relied to on be anything. From the moment they adopted the Chinese Communist Party policy of lockdown, on top of the Maoist arbitrary hard target of Net Zero by 2050 At All Costs, they were finished.

    And I think they are finished. Not just now, and not just for a generation. For ever.

    How could they ever sell themselves to the electorate as anything again? It would be like Hal the computer in A Space Odyssey telling Dave he was alright now.

    I'm feeling much better now voters. I favour low taxation. I favour personal responsibility. I want a small state and fiscal discipline. I want law and order. Mr sThatcher is my heroine. All as the voters shut the whole thing down.

    A new party/brand on the right will have to replace them.

    The Tories are indeed in deep shit, but both sides have tremendous problems

    Here is just one for Labour. Brexit

    If the polls continue fair for Starmer, and the Tories keep smashing themselves in the face with a shovel, he could actually win a majority. What would he do with that majority? Suddenly he has all the reins of power, he doesn’t have to rely on the Nats or the Libs.

    In that case I think he would come under intense pressure to reverse Brexit in some form. Not immediately rejoin, not yet, but re-enter the Single Market, accept Freedom of Movement again. Everyone around him is a Remainer, he is a Remainer, his friends and allies: they are all Remainers. They won’t be able to resist moving closer to the EU. They might be able to sell it as making life easier for traders and exporters, etc etc

    And that way lies much trouble
    No he wouldn't.
    Brexit is over.
    He would. He will have the entire class of Guardianista badgering him to do it. And he could - as I say - justify it as helping the economy. And it will chime with his own fundamental instincts. What is the point in winning a majority if you don’t then do something important and profound which 1. You believe is right 2. Everyone you know believes is right and 3. Is arguably good for the economy and the British people?

    And remember, when it happens: you read it here first

    This is of course dependant on him winning an actual majority. Dunno how this pans out if he is a NOM PM. It may be the price of SNP support? Rejoin the SM? Possible
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,958

    Meanwhile, this is interesting, even if one doesn't believe a single word of it.

    https://unherd.com/2022/05/dominic-cummings-i-dont-like-parties/

    One thing (and it may be only one thing) I like about Dom is his bracing lack of interest in being liked. This may be the result of contrasting him with his erstwhile porcine overlord who I think wants to be liked but is only capable of projecting some ghastly caricature of what he thinks a likeable and loveable person should be.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    edited May 2022

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    tlg86 said:

    Leon said:

    An authoritative account of the Disaster of St Denis


    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/may/31/champions-league-paris-final-fiasco-triggers-hillsborough-survivor-trauma?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    What strikes me is the pathetic inertia and complacency of the UEFA and FIFA officials, even when told of the horrible chaos outside the stadium, going on there and then. Shameful

    The Olympic Games will be fun in 2024.
    Rugby World Cup there first. Saturday will ultimately save France from a worse bashing - they will throw everything at it to ensure nothing like it happens during the World Cup - I imagine the police will be ringing the whole area to avoid the mugging etc rather than focussing onwards on the fans.

    If that sort of behaviour happened at the World Cup then it would point to the police/authorities but if they do everything to avoid it they will no doubt say “see, we told you it was those naughty Liverpool fans”.

    I see the French sports minister has doubled down blaming it on Liverpool “letting their fans out into the wild”. If that’s the case they seem to have encountered the savages of St Denis on this safari. Who knew that the suburbs of Paris were the “wilds”?
    The French public and media are not buying the minister’s feeble diversions, however. He’s getting fierce criticism from Left and Right. The Left are blaming the government and police, the Right are blaming the scum of the suburbs, and the socialists that try to excuse them

    Virtually no one - in France - is blaming the Liverpool fans. Across all the newspapers it is “France wins the trophy for incompetence “ or “France is humiliated on the world stage”. They are taking it seriously and it is still front page news

    And the Spanish media is filled with similar accounts of chaos and mugging gangs.

    Must be quite a shock for Macron and friends that the strategy of "1) Blame the Brits" followed by "2) Lie your heads off" has stopped working.

    Even France 24 are calling them out on it.

    I think the thing that will hurt is questions about whether this will happen at the 2024 Olympics. eg Will anybody standing in a queue or presenting a ticket at a turnstyle at Paris 2024 be at risk of random assault by Police Officers with Pepper Spray, and how will such police officers be held to account.
    Why they built the French national stadium in - literally - the worst, most dangerous part of France - is quite the mystery. I guess they hoped it would boost the area?

    Now it’s a source of national humiliation
    It made no sense at all to build the stadium where they did, without also clearing the slums actively regenerating the whole area around it.
    Indeed. Stratford was hardly a desirable location when we built ours.
    The French decided to take the equivalent of a random 150m x 100m piece of land between Brixton and Streatham, and put the national stadium there, with no other improvements to the area, making sure that all the stadium’s visitors would have to park in or walk through the dodgiest part of the city to get there.
    Bit harsh on Brixton and Streatham!
    St Denis is far worse than Brixton or streatham. There isn’t really an equivalent in London, not even Tottenham - it’s not just the deprivation, there is a seething hatred of the authorities and police, all of it mixed in a toxic, lawless brew of Islamism and radicalism
    I talked with someone in the compliance world yesterday. He reckons that secondary markets/touts for football matches are heavily used for money laundering.

    As banking and other areas have tightened up (somewhat!) the bad guys are searching for new avenues.

    Football tickets with very high faces values are perfect for this. As is the ability to sell them for actual cash. The easy to forge bit then appeals to the criminals who think of it as increasing the take on the laundering.

    See the career of Rudi Kurniwan

    While this fuck up doesn’t seem to be mostly about fake tickets, this is something that needs dealing with.
    The irony is that elsewhere forged tickets are no longer an issue because the introduction of mobile phones has created means by which it's possible to fake tickets thanks to feedback loops.

    Anyone who has attended a concert post covid must have seen the dynamic tickets Ticketmaster and others put on your phone to use.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310
    Nigelb said:

    This is a tad worrying, from Cummings, in the UnHerd interview....

    "And they actually could get somebody worse: Liz Truss would be even worse than Boris. She’s about as close to properly crackers as anybody I’ve met in Parliament."

    My father and I had a discussion on the phone this morning, i brought up Boris and that i think its game over. He's a non voter/occasional Tory (voted Tory 2019 and 2010 but not bothered in 15 or 17 and hadn't voted prior since 92 he tells me, but he always votes for a councillor (of all stripes))
    Anyway, he is virulently anti Truss (as much as he now despises Johnson)
    FWIW, the Woolie's Dad tip is Ben Wallace 'he seems a good bloke'
    I suspect Wallace would last about 10 minutes, if he were actually made leader, before revealing his complete inadequacy for the step up from minister to PM.
    He cant be worse than the current incumbent. Pretty low bar TBF
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,632
    I wonder if I go back to Saturday's threads there'll be no PBers embarrassed by their comments when they read this story.

    Real Madrid supporters have recalled similar stories to Liverpool fans over the treatment they received at the Champions League final on Saturday, dismissing the notion the issues were solely caused by fans of the Premier League club.

    Real fans have spoken of similar bottleneck problems when entering the Stade de France and corroborated tales that those jumping security barriers were young locals rather than ticket-holders from either club.

    Supporters also spoke of their horror after the game when some fans were targeted by thieves as they made their way out of the stadium.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/champions-league-chaos-real-madrid-fans-claim-they-were-pepper-sprayed-and-robbed-in-paris-xk9qwvwg6
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310
    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    MISTY said:

    Leon said:

    As the Labour lead has increased since Rishi Sunak gave everyone £9,000, a bag of second hand salt, and a tiny inflatable plastic wildebeest, one has to wonder what would have happened if he had NOT been so generous. Would the Labour lead be 20 points plus? Or have the voters just banked the money and decided, Well, the Tories are mad spaffing socialists, I might as well support Labour - ie, would the Tories be doing better if they were meaner and more Tory?

    It is certainly possible

    When in power, labour can be relied on to be labour.

    The tories, by their actions over the last two and half years, cannot be relied to on be anything. From the moment they adopted the Chinese Communist Party policy of lockdown, on top of the Maoist arbitrary hard target of Net Zero by 2050 At All Costs, they were finished.

    And I think they are finished. Not just now, and not just for a generation. For ever.

    How could they ever sell themselves to the electorate as anything again? It would be like Hal the computer in A Space Odyssey telling Dave he was alright now.

    I'm feeling much better now voters. I favour low taxation. I favour personal responsibility. I want a small state and fiscal discipline. I want law and order. Mr sThatcher is my heroine. All as the voters shut the whole thing down.

    A new party/brand on the right will have to replace them.

    The Tories are indeed in deep shit, but both sides have tremendous problems

    Here is just one for Labour. Brexit

    If the polls continue fair for Starmer, and the Tories keep smashing themselves in the face with a shovel, he could actually win a majority. What would he do with that majority? Suddenly he has all the reins of power, he doesn’t have to rely on the Nats or the Libs.

    In that case I think he would come under intense pressure to reverse Brexit in some form. Not immediately rejoin, not yet, but re-enter the Single Market, accept Freedom of Movement again. Everyone around him is a Remainer, he is a Remainer, his friends and allies: they are all Remainers. They won’t be able to resist moving closer to the EU. They might be able to sell it as making life easier for traders and exporters, etc etc

    And that way lies much trouble
    No he wouldn't.
    Brexit is over.
    He would. He will have the entire class of Guardianista badgering him to do it. And he could - as I say - justify it as helping the economy. And it will chime with his own fundamental instincts. What is the point in winning a majority if you don’t then do something important and profound which 1. You believe is right 2. Everyone you know believes is right and 3. Is arguably good for the economy and the British people?

    And remember, when it happens: you read it here first

    This is of course dependant on him winning an actual majority. Dunno how this pans out if he is a NOM PM. It may be the price of SNP support? Rejoin the SM? Possible
    The only thing about a reversal of Brexit would be the lols. Otherwise it is as pointless as leaving was in the first place. Massive unnecessary upheaval.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    MISTY said:

    Leon said:

    As the Labour lead has increased since Rishi Sunak gave everyone £9,000, a bag of second hand salt, and a tiny inflatable plastic wildebeest, one has to wonder what would have happened if he had NOT been so generous. Would the Labour lead be 20 points plus? Or have the voters just banked the money and decided, Well, the Tories are mad spaffing socialists, I might as well support Labour - ie, would the Tories be doing better if they were meaner and more Tory?

    It is certainly possible

    When in power, labour can be relied on to be labour.

    The tories, by their actions over the last two and half years, cannot be relied to on be anything. From the moment they adopted the Chinese Communist Party policy of lockdown, on top of the Maoist arbitrary hard target of Net Zero by 2050 At All Costs, they were finished.

    And I think they are finished. Not just now, and not just for a generation. For ever.

    How could they ever sell themselves to the electorate as anything again? It would be like Hal the computer in A Space Odyssey telling Dave he was alright now.

    I'm feeling much better now voters. I favour low taxation. I favour personal responsibility. I want a small state and fiscal discipline. I want law and order. Mr sThatcher is my heroine. All as the voters shut the whole thing down.

    A new party/brand on the right will have to replace them.

    The Tories are indeed in deep shit, but both sides have tremendous problems

    Here is just one for Labour. Brexit

    If the polls continue fair for Starmer, and the Tories keep smashing themselves in the face with a shovel, he could actually win a majority. What would he do with that majority? Suddenly he has all the reins of power, he doesn’t have to rely on the Nats or the Libs.

    In that case I think he would come under intense pressure to reverse Brexit in some form. Not immediately rejoin, not yet, but re-enter the Single Market, accept Freedom of Movement again. Everyone around him is a Remainer, he is a Remainer, his friends and allies: they are all Remainers. They won’t be able to resist moving closer to the EU. They might be able to sell it as making life easier for traders and exporters, etc etc

    And that way lies much trouble
    No he wouldn't.
    Brexit is over.
    He would. He will have the entire class of Guardianista badgering him to do it. And he could - as I say - justify it as helping the economy. And it will chime with his own fundamental instincts. What is the point in winning a majority if you don’t then do something important and profound which 1. You believe is right 2. Everyone you know believes is right and 3. Is arguably good for the economy and the British people?

    And remember, when it happens: you read it here first

    This is of course dependant on him winning an actual majority. Dunno how this pans out if he is a NOM PM. It may be the price of SNP support? Rejoin the SM? Possible
    LDs will want that and a referendum on PR for propping him up for sure
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Leon said:

    MISTY said:

    Leon said:

    As the Labour lead has increased since Rishi Sunak gave everyone £9,000, a bag of second hand salt, and a tiny inflatable plastic wildebeest, one has to wonder what would have happened if he had NOT been so generous. Would the Labour lead be 20 points plus? Or have the voters just banked the money and decided, Well, the Tories are mad spaffing socialists, I might as well support Labour - ie, would the Tories be doing better if they were meaner and more Tory?

    It is certainly possible

    When in power, labour can be relied on to be labour.

    The tories, by their actions over the last two and half years, cannot be relied to on be anything. From the moment they adopted the Chinese Communist Party policy of lockdown, on top of the Maoist arbitrary hard target of Net Zero by 2050 At All Costs, they were finished.

    And I think they are finished. Not just now, and not just for a generation. For ever.

    How could they ever sell themselves to the electorate as anything again? It would be like Hal the computer in A Space Odyssey telling Dave he was alright now.

    I'm feeling much better now voters. I favour low taxation. I favour personal responsibility. I want a small state and fiscal discipline. I want law and order. Mr sThatcher is my heroine. All as the voters shut the whole thing down.

    A new party/brand on the right will have to replace them.

    The Tories are indeed in deep shit, but both sides have tremendous problems

    Here is just one for Labour. Brexit

    If the polls continue fair for Starmer, and the Tories keep smashing themselves in the face with a shovel, he could actually win a majority. What would he do with that majority? Suddenly he has all the reins of power, he doesn’t have to rely on the Nats or the Libs.

    In that case I think he would come under intense pressure to reverse Brexit in some form. Not immediately rejoin, not yet, but re-enter the Single Market, accept Freedom of Movement again. Everyone around him is a Remainer, he is a Remainer, his friends and allies: they are all Remainers. They won’t be able to resist moving closer to the EU. They might be able to sell it as making life easier for traders and exporters, etc etc

    And that way lies much trouble
    Brexit was a manifesto of madness. A policy designed for gullible fools. The only thing worse would now be to try and reverse it. It isn't going to happen. If that is the only straw that The Clown has to cling to then Labour will win a majority.
    I’m not talking about Rejoin. I’m talking about an EFTA/EEA arrangement, solving a lot of the ongoing Brexit problems

    And, by the by, regaining Freedom of Movement

    This will be intensely seductive for Keir “2nd vote” Starmer, and 95% of his allies and supporters
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402
    Hague. "To be an effective Party they have to rally behind the leader or force him out."
    Spot on.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    Meanwhile, this is interesting, even if one doesn't believe a single word of it.

    https://unherd.com/2022/05/dominic-cummings-i-dont-like-parties/

    Well I believe him on the headline - after all, he's done his level best to destroy the Tory party. Not without help from the top.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370

    Leon said:

    MISTY said:

    Leon said:

    As the Labour lead has increased since Rishi Sunak gave everyone £9,000, a bag of second hand salt, and a tiny inflatable plastic wildebeest, one has to wonder what would have happened if he had NOT been so generous. Would the Labour lead be 20 points plus? Or have the voters just banked the money and decided, Well, the Tories are mad spaffing socialists, I might as well support Labour - ie, would the Tories be doing better if they were meaner and more Tory?

    It is certainly possible

    When in power, labour can be relied on to be labour.

    The tories, by their actions over the last two and half years, cannot be relied to on be anything. From the moment they adopted the Chinese Communist Party policy of lockdown, on top of the Maoist arbitrary hard target of Net Zero by 2050 At All Costs, they were finished.

    And I think they are finished. Not just now, and not just for a generation. For ever.

    How could they ever sell themselves to the electorate as anything again? It would be like Hal the computer in A Space Odyssey telling Dave he was alright now.

    I'm feeling much better now voters. I favour low taxation. I favour personal responsibility. I want a small state and fiscal discipline. I want law and order. Mr sThatcher is my heroine. All as the voters shut the whole thing down.

    A new party/brand on the right will have to replace them.

    The Tories are indeed in deep shit, but both sides have tremendous problems

    Here is just one for Labour. Brexit

    If the polls continue fair for Starmer, and the Tories keep smashing themselves in the face with a shovel, he could actually win a majority. What would he do with that majority? Suddenly he has all the reins of power, he doesn’t have to rely on the Nats or the Libs.

    In that case I think he would come under intense pressure to reverse Brexit in some form. Not immediately rejoin, not yet, but re-enter the Single Market, accept Freedom of Movement again. Everyone around him is a Remainer, he is a Remainer, his friends and allies: they are all Remainers. They won’t be able to resist moving closer to the EU. They might be able to sell it as making life easier for traders and exporters, etc etc

    And that way lies much trouble
    Brexit was a manifesto of madness. A policy designed for gullible fools. The only thing worse would now be to try and reverse it. It isn't going to happen. If that is the only straw that The Clown has to cling to then Labour will win a majority.
    Brexit offered people their own personal unicorn. The end result was always going to be disappointment for some people. The only difference between dreams and reality is that in this reality absolutely everyone is disappointed with the Brexit that Bozo created / achieved.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,564

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://order-order.com/2022/05/31/john-mcdonnell-defends-comrade-sunaks-inflationary-cash-splashing-from-labour-criticism/

    If Tory MPs weren’t comfortable with Comrade Sunak’s £21 billion cost of living package announced last week, they should check out the bizarre through-the-looking-glass situation on Twitter this morning, as John McDonnell defends the Tory chancellor’s spending plans against attacks from Labour that it might cause greater inflation.

    Pretty much sums up where we're at, to be honest.

    Yup, I said this is socialism.

    Mrs Thatcher is spinning in her grave.
    My dad's reaction when he visited us yesterday on the windfall tax "supposedly the party of low taxes", he has voted Tory for 40+ years and was a member for 30+, Boris and Rishi are losing core voters.
    I said last week that I'm expecting rent controls next from this government.
    I've honestly never known a Tory government to simply give up on supply side economics. It's as if Rishi has just thrown away all of the first year economics text books and decided that pumping up demand is going to solve the inflation problem. Completely mad.
    Hes given labour a double digit lead as party of low tax. Quite insane.
    Does anybody think that after a year in Government, Labour would still be thought of as "low tax"?

    Not a cat in hell's chance.

    Well, no, but letting them be thought that now is helping them in to dash those hopes later
    It won't even survive the Manifesto.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    MISTY said:

    Leon said:

    As the Labour lead has increased since Rishi Sunak gave everyone £9,000, a bag of second hand salt, and a tiny inflatable plastic wildebeest, one has to wonder what would have happened if he had NOT been so generous. Would the Labour lead be 20 points plus? Or have the voters just banked the money and decided, Well, the Tories are mad spaffing socialists, I might as well support Labour - ie, would the Tories be doing better if they were meaner and more Tory?

    It is certainly possible

    When in power, labour can be relied on to be labour.

    The tories, by their actions over the last two and half years, cannot be relied to on be anything. From the moment they adopted the Chinese Communist Party policy of lockdown, on top of the Maoist arbitrary hard target of Net Zero by 2050 At All Costs, they were finished.

    And I think they are finished. Not just now, and not just for a generation. For ever.

    How could they ever sell themselves to the electorate as anything again? It would be like Hal the computer in A Space Odyssey telling Dave he was alright now.

    I'm feeling much better now voters. I favour low taxation. I favour personal responsibility. I want a small state and fiscal discipline. I want law and order. Mr sThatcher is my heroine. All as the voters shut the whole thing down.

    A new party/brand on the right will have to replace them.

    The Tories are indeed in deep shit, but both sides have tremendous problems

    Here is just one for Labour. Brexit

    If the polls continue fair for Starmer, and the Tories keep smashing themselves in the face with a shovel, he could actually win a majority. What would he do with that majority? Suddenly he has all the reins of power, he doesn’t have to rely on the Nats or the Libs.

    In that case I think he would come under intense pressure to reverse Brexit in some form. Not immediately rejoin, not yet, but re-enter the Single Market, accept Freedom of Movement again. Everyone around him is a Remainer, he is a Remainer, his friends and allies: they are all Remainers. They won’t be able to resist moving closer to the EU. They might be able to sell it as making life easier for traders and exporters, etc etc

    And that way lies much trouble
    No he wouldn't.
    Brexit is over.
    He would. He will have the entire class of Guardianista badgering him to do it. And he could - as I say - justify it as helping the economy. And it will chime with his own fundamental instincts. What is the point in winning a majority if you don’t then do something important and profound which 1. You believe is right 2. Everyone you know believes is right and 3. Is arguably good for the economy and the British people?

    And remember, when it happens: you read it here first

    This is of course dependant on him winning an actual majority. Dunno how this pans out if he is a NOM PM. It may be the price of SNP support? Rejoin the SM? Possible
    The only thing about a reversal of Brexit would be the lols. Otherwise it is as pointless as leaving was in the first place. Massive unnecessary upheaval.
    It would also be very popular because it would annoy tories.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,215

    Meanwhile, this is interesting, even if one doesn't believe a single word of it.

    https://unherd.com/2022/05/dominic-cummings-i-dont-like-parties/

    That's very interesting indeed - I believe every word of it.

    Amongst the very interesting parts, this on the inquiry: "I think the Covid inquiry will show that groupthink was a very serious problem."
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    dixiedean said:

    Hague. "To be an effective Party they have to rally behind the leader or force him out."
    Spot on.

    And how can they possibly do the former with a straight face
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    .

    Nigelb said:

    This is a tad worrying, from Cummings, in the UnHerd interview....

    "And they actually could get somebody worse: Liz Truss would be even worse than Boris. She’s about as close to properly crackers as anybody I’ve met in Parliament."

    My father and I had a discussion on the phone this morning, i brought up Boris and that i think its game over. He's a non voter/occasional Tory (voted Tory 2019 and 2010 but not bothered in 15 or 17 and hadn't voted prior since 92 he tells me, but he always votes for a councillor (of all stripes))
    Anyway, he is virulently anti Truss (as much as he now despises Johnson)
    FWIW, the Woolie's Dad tip is Ben Wallace 'he seems a good bloke'
    I suspect Wallace would last about 10 minutes, if he were actually made leader, before revealing his complete inadequacy for the step up from minister to PM.
    He cant be worse than the current incumbent. Pretty low bar TBF
    Well probably not.
    Though you'd think a self respecting party would aim a little higher than that.
  • dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    This is a tad worrying, from Cummings, in the UnHerd interview....

    "And they actually could get somebody worse: Liz Truss would be even worse than Boris. She’s about as close to properly crackers as anybody I’ve met in Parliament."

    My father and I had a discussion on the phone this morning, i brought up Boris and that i think its game over. He's a non voter/occasional Tory (voted Tory 2019 and 2010 but not bothered in 15 or 17 and hadn't voted prior since 92 he tells me, but he always votes for a councillor (of all stripes))
    Anyway, he is virulently anti Truss (as much as he now despises Johnson)
    FWIW, the Woolie's Dad tip is Ben Wallace 'he seems a good bloke'
    Thing about Wallace is. He may be good. He may not. The only job he's had is Defence. It's ridiculously low profile. Then there's a War. He can't really lose there. He hasn't had a difficult gig in public.
    Hie expenses in 2008 may be an issue too.
    Fourth highest trougher in an ultra-competitive field.
    He was a campaigner for expenses transparency though and he wasn't accused of duck house silliness, just a large bill.
    Yeah, hed be a risk but, on quick reflection after Dads comments, i think he might be an option as relatively unknown and thus clearer of taint. His military service wont hurt him.
    If the Tories want to play safe, stop the LD advance as much as possible, give up some red wall ground (but maybe retain the likes of Bishop Auckland etc) and restrict 2024 to 'at worst' opposition against a minority labour govt they'll go for Hunt
    Tbf. I can think of twenty worse in the current Cabinet.
    My issue is this. He's been an MP since 2005. Took him 14 years to make Cabinet. 10 years to make a Junior Minister. Hardly a fast track high flyer. Did no one spot the talent of a future PM for a decade?
    He's had the easiest wicket in government since then. Nowt much to do during the pandemic. Then a War with a policy on which there isn't any disagreement, which thrusts him into the media spotlight.
    He's good there. But he hasn't taken a single difficult decision as far as I can tell.
    There's a lot of sense in that, and there's an element of flavour of the month. I'm reminded Andrea Leadsom (back in the news today) made the ballot for the leadership in 2016, and it was only when she opened her mouth that everyone realised how daft that was.

    On the other hand, I'd not read too much into his not being recognised immediately by senior colleagues - some people are growers, not showers. To use a football analogy that may appeal, Jamie Vardy was dropped by Sheffield Wednesday as a trainee, and worked his way up through non-league.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310

    I wonder if I go back to Saturday's threads there'll be no PBers embarrassed by their comments when they read this story.

    Real Madrid supporters have recalled similar stories to Liverpool fans over the treatment they received at the Champions League final on Saturday, dismissing the notion the issues were solely caused by fans of the Premier League club.

    Real fans have spoken of similar bottleneck problems when entering the Stade de France and corroborated tales that those jumping security barriers were young locals rather than ticket-holders from either club.

    Supporters also spoke of their horror after the game when some fans were targeted by thieves as they made their way out of the stadium.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/champions-league-chaos-real-madrid-fans-claim-they-were-pepper-sprayed-and-robbed-in-paris-xk9qwvwg6

    Must be a strange juxtaposition for Liverpool fans to be "*targeted* by thieves.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,059
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    dixiedean said:

    Top tip.
    Professional landlords. Solve your financial problems by simply getting a proper job.

    Why is providing high quality housing services not a proper job?

    Houses don't maintain or invest in themselves. Traditionally 15-20% or so of the income goes on maintenance and investment, often done in advance during a full refurbishment with a 10 year+ return period.
    So they’re doing 15-20% of a proper job?

    What?

    You think that businesses are only entitled to one element of their business expenses, and no income?

    So a butcher is only entitled to the money paid for meat supplies, and not the revenue that pays for the shop, the staff expenses, the tax and the maintenance of the finance which allowed investment in the business?
    I think a butcher makes a small % on top of their costs whereas a landlord makes a very large %. There is a reason why economics has the term “rent seeking”.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,747

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://order-order.com/2022/05/31/john-mcdonnell-defends-comrade-sunaks-inflationary-cash-splashing-from-labour-criticism/

    If Tory MPs weren’t comfortable with Comrade Sunak’s £21 billion cost of living package announced last week, they should check out the bizarre through-the-looking-glass situation on Twitter this morning, as John McDonnell defends the Tory chancellor’s spending plans against attacks from Labour that it might cause greater inflation.

    Pretty much sums up where we're at, to be honest.

    Yup, I said this is socialism.

    Mrs Thatcher is spinning in her grave.
    My dad's reaction when he visited us yesterday on the windfall tax "supposedly the party of low taxes", he has voted Tory for 40+ years and was a member for 30+, Boris and Rishi are losing core voters.
    I said last week that I'm expecting rent controls next from this government.
    I've honestly never known a Tory government to simply give up on supply side economics. It's as if Rishi has just thrown away all of the first year economics text books and decided that pumping up demand is going to solve the inflation problem. Completely mad.
    Hes given labour a double digit lead as party of low tax. Quite insane.
    Does anybody think that after a year in Government, Labour would still be thought of as "low tax"?

    Not a cat in hell's chance.

    Well, no, but letting them be thought that now is helping them in to dash those hopes later
    It won't even survive the Manifesto.
    Right now the only thing that would make me vote Tory next time is if Labour are foolish enough to restart the Brexit Wars. Starmer better have a good answer lined up for the inevitable question during the campaign or he’ll tank.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MISTY said:

    Leon said:

    As the Labour lead has increased since Rishi Sunak gave everyone £9,000, a bag of second hand salt, and a tiny inflatable plastic wildebeest, one has to wonder what would have happened if he had NOT been so generous. Would the Labour lead be 20 points plus? Or have the voters just banked the money and decided, Well, the Tories are mad spaffing socialists, I might as well support Labour - ie, would the Tories be doing better if they were meaner and more Tory?

    It is certainly possible

    When in power, labour can be relied on to be labour.

    The tories, by their actions over the last two and half years, cannot be relied to on be anything. From the moment they adopted the Chinese Communist Party policy of lockdown, on top of the Maoist arbitrary hard target of Net Zero by 2050 At All Costs, they were finished.

    And I think they are finished. Not just now, and not just for a generation. For ever.

    How could they ever sell themselves to the electorate as anything again? It would be like Hal the computer in A Space Odyssey telling Dave he was alright now.

    I'm feeling much better now voters. I favour low taxation. I favour personal responsibility. I want a small state and fiscal discipline. I want law and order. Mr sThatcher is my heroine. All as the voters shut the whole thing down.

    A new party/brand on the right will have to replace them.

    The Tories are indeed in deep shit, but both sides have tremendous problems

    Here is just one for Labour. Brexit

    If the polls continue fair for Starmer, and the Tories keep smashing themselves in the face with a shovel, he could actually win a majority. What would he do with that majority? Suddenly he has all the reins of power, he doesn’t have to rely on the Nats or the Libs.

    In that case I think he would come under intense pressure to reverse Brexit in some form. Not immediately rejoin, not yet, but re-enter the Single Market, accept Freedom of Movement again. Everyone around him is a Remainer, he is a Remainer, his friends and allies: they are all Remainers. They won’t be able to resist moving closer to the EU. They might be able to sell it as making life easier for traders and exporters, etc etc

    And that way lies much trouble
    Brexit was a manifesto of madness. A policy designed for gullible fools. The only thing worse would now be to try and reverse it. It isn't going to happen. If that is the only straw that The Clown has to cling to then Labour will win a majority.
    I’m not talking about Rejoin. I’m talking about an EFTA/EEA arrangement, solving a lot of the ongoing Brexit problems

    And, by the by, regaining Freedom of Movement

    This will be intensely seductive for Keir “2nd vote” Starmer, and 95% of his allies and supporters
    But that isn't "reversing Brexit".
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MISTY said:

    Leon said:

    As the Labour lead has increased since Rishi Sunak gave everyone £9,000, a bag of second hand salt, and a tiny inflatable plastic wildebeest, one has to wonder what would have happened if he had NOT been so generous. Would the Labour lead be 20 points plus? Or have the voters just banked the money and decided, Well, the Tories are mad spaffing socialists, I might as well support Labour - ie, would the Tories be doing better if they were meaner and more Tory?

    It is certainly possible

    When in power, labour can be relied on to be labour.

    The tories, by their actions over the last two and half years, cannot be relied to on be anything. From the moment they adopted the Chinese Communist Party policy of lockdown, on top of the Maoist arbitrary hard target of Net Zero by 2050 At All Costs, they were finished.

    And I think they are finished. Not just now, and not just for a generation. For ever.

    How could they ever sell themselves to the electorate as anything again? It would be like Hal the computer in A Space Odyssey telling Dave he was alright now.

    I'm feeling much better now voters. I favour low taxation. I favour personal responsibility. I want a small state and fiscal discipline. I want law and order. Mr sThatcher is my heroine. All as the voters shut the whole thing down.

    A new party/brand on the right will have to replace them.

    The Tories are indeed in deep shit, but both sides have tremendous problems

    Here is just one for Labour. Brexit

    If the polls continue fair for Starmer, and the Tories keep smashing themselves in the face with a shovel, he could actually win a majority. What would he do with that majority? Suddenly he has all the reins of power, he doesn’t have to rely on the Nats or the Libs.

    In that case I think he would come under intense pressure to reverse Brexit in some form. Not immediately rejoin, not yet, but re-enter the Single Market, accept Freedom of Movement again. Everyone around him is a Remainer, he is a Remainer, his friends and allies: they are all Remainers. They won’t be able to resist moving closer to the EU. They might be able to sell it as making life easier for traders and exporters, etc etc

    And that way lies much trouble
    Brexit was a manifesto of madness. A policy designed for gullible fools. The only thing worse would now be to try and reverse it. It isn't going to happen. If that is the only straw that The Clown has to cling to then Labour will win a majority.
    I’m not talking about Rejoin. I’m talking about an EFTA/EEA arrangement, solving a lot of the ongoing Brexit problems

    And, by the by, regaining Freedom of Movement

    This will be intensely seductive for Keir “2nd vote” Starmer, and 95% of his allies and supporters
    Sounds ideal. I'd be happy with that. Probably inevitable so I would stop worrying about it.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402
    John Stevenson writes.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    edited May 2022

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    This is a tad worrying, from Cummings, in the UnHerd interview....

    "And they actually could get somebody worse: Liz Truss would be even worse than Boris. She’s about as close to properly crackers as anybody I’ve met in Parliament."

    My father and I had a discussion on the phone this morning, i brought up Boris and that i think its game over. He's a non voter/occasional Tory (voted Tory 2019 and 2010 but not bothered in 15 or 17 and hadn't voted prior since 92 he tells me, but he always votes for a councillor (of all stripes))
    Anyway, he is virulently anti Truss (as much as he now despises Johnson)
    FWIW, the Woolie's Dad tip is Ben Wallace 'he seems a good bloke'
    Thing about Wallace is. He may be good. He may not. The only job he's had is Defence. It's ridiculously low profile. Then there's a War. He can't really lose there. He hasn't had a difficult gig in public.
    Hie expenses in 2008 may be an issue too.
    Fourth highest trougher in an ultra-competitive field.
    He was a campaigner for expenses transparency though and he wasn't accused of duck house silliness, just a large bill.
    Yeah, hed be a risk but, on quick reflection after Dads comments, i think he might be an option as relatively unknown and thus clearer of taint. His military service wont hurt him.
    If the Tories want to play safe, stop the LD advance as much as possible, give up some red wall ground (but maybe retain the likes of Bishop Auckland etc) and restrict 2024 to 'at worst' opposition against a minority labour govt they'll go for Hunt
    Tbf. I can think of twenty worse in the current Cabinet.
    My issue is this. He's been an MP since 2005. Took him 14 years to make Cabinet. 10 years to make a Junior Minister. Hardly a fast track high flyer. Did no one spot the talent of a future PM for a decade?
    He's had the easiest wicket in government since then. Nowt much to do during the pandemic. Then a War with a policy on which there isn't any disagreement, which thrusts him into the media spotlight.
    He's good there. But he hasn't taken a single difficult decision as far as I can tell.
    There's a lot of sense in that, and there's an element of flavour of the month. I'm reminded Andrea Leadsom (back in the news today) made the ballot for the leadership in 2016, and it was only when she opened her mouth that everyone realised how daft that was.

    On the other hand, I'd not read too much into his not being recognised immediately by senior colleagues - some people are growers, not showers. To use a football analogy that may appeal, Jamie Vardy was dropped by Sheffield Wednesday as a trainee, and worked his way up through non-league.
    Deleted. Why am i posting about Grant sodding Holt?! Im going slightly (more) insane
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MISTY said:

    Leon said:

    As the Labour lead has increased since Rishi Sunak gave everyone £9,000, a bag of second hand salt, and a tiny inflatable plastic wildebeest, one has to wonder what would have happened if he had NOT been so generous. Would the Labour lead be 20 points plus? Or have the voters just banked the money and decided, Well, the Tories are mad spaffing socialists, I might as well support Labour - ie, would the Tories be doing better if they were meaner and more Tory?

    It is certainly possible

    When in power, labour can be relied on to be labour.

    The tories, by their actions over the last two and half years, cannot be relied to on be anything. From the moment they adopted the Chinese Communist Party policy of lockdown, on top of the Maoist arbitrary hard target of Net Zero by 2050 At All Costs, they were finished.

    And I think they are finished. Not just now, and not just for a generation. For ever.

    How could they ever sell themselves to the electorate as anything again? It would be like Hal the computer in A Space Odyssey telling Dave he was alright now.

    I'm feeling much better now voters. I favour low taxation. I favour personal responsibility. I want a small state and fiscal discipline. I want law and order. Mr sThatcher is my heroine. All as the voters shut the whole thing down.

    A new party/brand on the right will have to replace them.

    The Tories are indeed in deep shit, but both sides have tremendous problems

    Here is just one for Labour. Brexit

    If the polls continue fair for Starmer, and the Tories keep smashing themselves in the face with a shovel, he could actually win a majority. What would he do with that majority? Suddenly he has all the reins of power, he doesn’t have to rely on the Nats or the Libs.

    In that case I think he would come under intense pressure to reverse Brexit in some form. Not immediately rejoin, not yet, but re-enter the Single Market, accept Freedom of Movement again. Everyone around him is a Remainer, he is a Remainer, his friends and allies: they are all Remainers. They won’t be able to resist moving closer to the EU. They might be able to sell it as making life easier for traders and exporters, etc etc

    And that way lies much trouble
    Brexit was a manifesto of madness. A policy designed for gullible fools. The only thing worse would now be to try and reverse it. It isn't going to happen. If that is the only straw that The Clown has to cling to then Labour will win a majority.
    I’m not talking about Rejoin. I’m talking about an EFTA/EEA arrangement, solving a lot of the ongoing Brexit problems

    And, by the by, regaining Freedom of Movement

    This will be intensely seductive for Keir “2nd vote” Starmer, and 95% of his allies and supporters
    But that isn't "reversing Brexit".
    I literally said “REVERSE BREXIT IN SOME FORM. NOT IMMEDIATELY REJOIN, NOT YET, BUT RE-ENTER THE SINGLE MARKET”

    FFS, read the comments
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310
    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MISTY said:

    Leon said:

    As the Labour lead has increased since Rishi Sunak gave everyone £9,000, a bag of second hand salt, and a tiny inflatable plastic wildebeest, one has to wonder what would have happened if he had NOT been so generous. Would the Labour lead be 20 points plus? Or have the voters just banked the money and decided, Well, the Tories are mad spaffing socialists, I might as well support Labour - ie, would the Tories be doing better if they were meaner and more Tory?

    It is certainly possible

    When in power, labour can be relied on to be labour.

    The tories, by their actions over the last two and half years, cannot be relied to on be anything. From the moment they adopted the Chinese Communist Party policy of lockdown, on top of the Maoist arbitrary hard target of Net Zero by 2050 At All Costs, they were finished.

    And I think they are finished. Not just now, and not just for a generation. For ever.

    How could they ever sell themselves to the electorate as anything again? It would be like Hal the computer in A Space Odyssey telling Dave he was alright now.

    I'm feeling much better now voters. I favour low taxation. I favour personal responsibility. I want a small state and fiscal discipline. I want law and order. Mr sThatcher is my heroine. All as the voters shut the whole thing down.

    A new party/brand on the right will have to replace them.

    The Tories are indeed in deep shit, but both sides have tremendous problems

    Here is just one for Labour. Brexit

    If the polls continue fair for Starmer, and the Tories keep smashing themselves in the face with a shovel, he could actually win a majority. What would he do with that majority? Suddenly he has all the reins of power, he doesn’t have to rely on the Nats or the Libs.

    In that case I think he would come under intense pressure to reverse Brexit in some form. Not immediately rejoin, not yet, but re-enter the Single Market, accept Freedom of Movement again. Everyone around him is a Remainer, he is a Remainer, his friends and allies: they are all Remainers. They won’t be able to resist moving closer to the EU. They might be able to sell it as making life easier for traders and exporters, etc etc

    And that way lies much trouble
    Brexit was a manifesto of madness. A policy designed for gullible fools. The only thing worse would now be to try and reverse it. It isn't going to happen. If that is the only straw that The Clown has to cling to then Labour will win a majority.
    I’m not talking about Rejoin. I’m talking about an EFTA/EEA arrangement, solving a lot of the ongoing Brexit problems

    And, by the by, regaining Freedom of Movement

    This will be intensely seductive for Keir “2nd vote” Starmer, and 95% of his allies and supporters
    But that isn't "reversing Brexit".
    It is probably implementing what a lot of people would have voted for if they had had a third option
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    dixiedean said:

    John Stevenson writes.

    Icy in Meeks Feb S/S
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,157
    edited May 2022

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    dixiedean said:

    Top tip.
    Professional landlords. Solve your financial problems by simply getting a proper job.

    Why is providing high quality housing services not a proper job?

    Houses don't maintain or invest in themselves. Traditionally 15-20% or so of the income goes on maintenance and investment, often done in advance during a full refurbishment with a 10 year+ return period.
    So they’re doing 15-20% of a proper job?

    What?

    You think that businesses are only entitled to one element of their business expenses, and no income?

    So a butcher is only entitled to the money paid for meat supplies, and not the revenue that pays for the shop, the staff expenses, the tax and the maintenance of the finance which allowed investment in the business?
    I think a butcher makes a small % on top of their costs whereas a landlord makes a very large %. There is a reason why economics has the term “rent seeking”.
    Your evidence of that? And that whatever the % is is universally unreasonable?

    Bearing in mind the 30-100k investment that may have been made upfront in a refurbishment.

    If rents consistently increase more slowly than inflation (which is true), and the quality of accommodation consistently increases (which it does), that actually suggests that it is working quite well.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Selebian said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    PJH said:

    Heathener said:

    I'd think Hunt and Wallace appeal to the same "serious common sense" sector of the party, which is probably more represented in the Parliamentary party than the wider membership, who are more into "serious conservatism". So I'd have thought a Hunt vs Truss final was more likely than a Hunt vs Wallace one. But others here are better-placed to judge, eh?

    Certainly betting on a VONC happening seems a strong option, but beware of Betfair's market on this - you're betting on whether the VONC succeeds, perhaps a more iffy proposition.

    A new leader will certainly give a temporary bounce - lots of people like BigG and dyedwoolie are natural Conservatives who would return to the fold. But the situation is objectively difficult, so the new person will struggle to come up with bright new prospects. From that viewpoint, the Tories might be best off with a change next year, by which time the energy price spike may have unwound, giving the new leader an aura of miraculous success. Either way it does seem to me that the dominant public view is that the Conservatives have run out of steam, much as they felt about Labour in 2009-10.

    Tbf Nick even my dislike of Labour is starting to feel like not enough regardless of what the Tories do for next time.
    I quite like imperial measurements, so does my butcher for example, however bringing them back in some triumphant flag waving weirdness whilst we are mired in war, economic crisis and coming out of a really depressing 2 years makes the Cones Hotline look good politics.
    Indeed.

    The thing is, we already use a mixture of metric and imperial as it is. It may not be neat and tidy but we're used to it, from old to young. No one is suddenly going to be thrilled to see £7 a gallon petrol signs appearing.

    If David Canzini, or whichever muppet dreamt this up, thinks it's going to fix Boris Johnson's popularity then they are stark raving bonkers. Or working for the Opposition.
    I'd be happy to see £7 per gallon. That would be a substantial discount on what I paid last night. £120 to fill up... Gulp!
    What do you drive, a chieftain tank?
    Other than my Tesla, I can't think of a car I have had in the last 5 years that hasn't cost £120 to fill up lol.
    With the price of electricity, that will soon cost £550 to fill up.
    It is still about 1/3 of cost of petrol per mile even on a supercharger. Even less if charged on low rate economy 7 over night.
    Have got a Tesla Model Y on order which I have deferred back into Q3 whilst awaiting work stuff to become more clear. Moving car costs to pre tax from post tax makes a lot of sense. Only problem is that I am becoming more attached to my Outlander PHEV now that I've reserved its replacement.

    Fuel costs are only one part of the total cost - and however great pence per mile may look at the moment on leccy vs dino juice, that equation will keep changing.
    It was the BIK that sold it to me. That and the absurd acceleration! It is also very good to drive, and in spite of what the plonkerish CEO of BMW said, easily as good as any of the German cars I have had.
    I note it's reported BMW are considering moving to a cylindrical battery format for their EVs.
    Like this?
    ...
    Like Tesla.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402

    I wonder if I go back to Saturday's threads there'll be no PBers embarrassed by their comments when they read this story.

    Real Madrid supporters have recalled similar stories to Liverpool fans over the treatment they received at the Champions League final on Saturday, dismissing the notion the issues were solely caused by fans of the Premier League club.

    Real fans have spoken of similar bottleneck problems when entering the Stade de France and corroborated tales that those jumping security barriers were young locals rather than ticket-holders from either club.

    Supporters also spoke of their horror after the game when some fans were targeted by thieves as they made their way out of the stadium.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/champions-league-chaos-real-madrid-fans-claim-they-were-pepper-sprayed-and-robbed-in-paris-xk9qwvwg6

    Must be a strange juxtaposition for Liverpool fans to be "*targeted* by thieves.
    Well. Most of them aren't from there.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402
    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MISTY said:

    Leon said:

    As the Labour lead has increased since Rishi Sunak gave everyone £9,000, a bag of second hand salt, and a tiny inflatable plastic wildebeest, one has to wonder what would have happened if he had NOT been so generous. Would the Labour lead be 20 points plus? Or have the voters just banked the money and decided, Well, the Tories are mad spaffing socialists, I might as well support Labour - ie, would the Tories be doing better if they were meaner and more Tory?

    It is certainly possible

    When in power, labour can be relied on to be labour.

    The tories, by their actions over the last two and half years, cannot be relied to on be anything. From the moment they adopted the Chinese Communist Party policy of lockdown, on top of the Maoist arbitrary hard target of Net Zero by 2050 At All Costs, they were finished.

    And I think they are finished. Not just now, and not just for a generation. For ever.

    How could they ever sell themselves to the electorate as anything again? It would be like Hal the computer in A Space Odyssey telling Dave he was alright now.

    I'm feeling much better now voters. I favour low taxation. I favour personal responsibility. I want a small state and fiscal discipline. I want law and order. Mr sThatcher is my heroine. All as the voters shut the whole thing down.

    A new party/brand on the right will have to replace them.

    The Tories are indeed in deep shit, but both sides have tremendous problems

    Here is just one for Labour. Brexit

    If the polls continue fair for Starmer, and the Tories keep smashing themselves in the face with a shovel, he could actually win a majority. What would he do with that majority? Suddenly he has all the reins of power, he doesn’t have to rely on the Nats or the Libs.

    In that case I think he would come under intense pressure to reverse Brexit in some form. Not immediately rejoin, not yet, but re-enter the Single Market, accept Freedom of Movement again. Everyone around him is a Remainer, he is a Remainer, his friends and allies: they are all Remainers. They won’t be able to resist moving closer to the EU. They might be able to sell it as making life easier for traders and exporters, etc etc

    And that way lies much trouble
    Brexit was a manifesto of madness. A policy designed for gullible fools. The only thing worse would now be to try and reverse it. It isn't going to happen. If that is the only straw that The Clown has to cling to then Labour will win a majority.
    I’m not talking about Rejoin. I’m talking about an EFTA/EEA arrangement, solving a lot of the ongoing Brexit problems

    And, by the by, regaining Freedom of Movement

    This will be intensely seductive for Keir “2nd vote” Starmer, and 95% of his allies and supporters
    But that isn't "reversing Brexit".
    I literally said “REVERSE BREXIT IN SOME FORM. NOT IMMEDIATELY REJOIN, NOT YET, BUT RE-ENTER THE SINGLE MARKET”

    FFS, read the comments
    Which isn't reversing Brexit in some form. Unless you think re-writing the NI Protocol is also reversing it as well.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MISTY said:

    Leon said:

    As the Labour lead has increased since Rishi Sunak gave everyone £9,000, a bag of second hand salt, and a tiny inflatable plastic wildebeest, one has to wonder what would have happened if he had NOT been so generous. Would the Labour lead be 20 points plus? Or have the voters just banked the money and decided, Well, the Tories are mad spaffing socialists, I might as well support Labour - ie, would the Tories be doing better if they were meaner and more Tory?

    It is certainly possible

    When in power, labour can be relied on to be labour.

    The tories, by their actions over the last two and half years, cannot be relied to on be anything. From the moment they adopted the Chinese Communist Party policy of lockdown, on top of the Maoist arbitrary hard target of Net Zero by 2050 At All Costs, they were finished.

    And I think they are finished. Not just now, and not just for a generation. For ever.

    How could they ever sell themselves to the electorate as anything again? It would be like Hal the computer in A Space Odyssey telling Dave he was alright now.

    I'm feeling much better now voters. I favour low taxation. I favour personal responsibility. I want a small state and fiscal discipline. I want law and order. Mr sThatcher is my heroine. All as the voters shut the whole thing down.

    A new party/brand on the right will have to replace them.

    The Tories are indeed in deep shit, but both sides have tremendous problems

    Here is just one for Labour. Brexit

    If the polls continue fair for Starmer, and the Tories keep smashing themselves in the face with a shovel, he could actually win a majority. What would he do with that majority? Suddenly he has all the reins of power, he doesn’t have to rely on the Nats or the Libs.

    In that case I think he would come under intense pressure to reverse Brexit in some form. Not immediately rejoin, not yet, but re-enter the Single Market, accept Freedom of Movement again. Everyone around him is a Remainer, he is a Remainer, his friends and allies: they are all Remainers. They won’t be able to resist moving closer to the EU. They might be able to sell it as making life easier for traders and exporters, etc etc

    And that way lies much trouble
    Brexit was a manifesto of madness. A policy designed for gullible fools. The only thing worse would now be to try and reverse it. It isn't going to happen. If that is the only straw that The Clown has to cling to then Labour will win a majority.
    I’m not talking about Rejoin. I’m talking about an EFTA/EEA arrangement, solving a lot of the ongoing Brexit problems

    And, by the by, regaining Freedom of Movement

    This will be intensely seductive for Keir “2nd vote” Starmer, and 95% of his allies and supporters
    Good way to send the UK into Gillets Jaune territory.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402
    IshmaelZ said:

    dixiedean said:

    John Stevenson writes.

    Icy in Meeks Feb S/S
    Yeah.
    It's developing a momentum though now. Each one makes the next more likely.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MISTY said:

    Leon said:

    As the Labour lead has increased since Rishi Sunak gave everyone £9,000, a bag of second hand salt, and a tiny inflatable plastic wildebeest, one has to wonder what would have happened if he had NOT been so generous. Would the Labour lead be 20 points plus? Or have the voters just banked the money and decided, Well, the Tories are mad spaffing socialists, I might as well support Labour - ie, would the Tories be doing better if they were meaner and more Tory?

    It is certainly possible

    When in power, labour can be relied on to be labour.

    The tories, by their actions over the last two and half years, cannot be relied to on be anything. From the moment they adopted the Chinese Communist Party policy of lockdown, on top of the Maoist arbitrary hard target of Net Zero by 2050 At All Costs, they were finished.

    And I think they are finished. Not just now, and not just for a generation. For ever.

    How could they ever sell themselves to the electorate as anything again? It would be like Hal the computer in A Space Odyssey telling Dave he was alright now.

    I'm feeling much better now voters. I favour low taxation. I favour personal responsibility. I want a small state and fiscal discipline. I want law and order. Mr sThatcher is my heroine. All as the voters shut the whole thing down.

    A new party/brand on the right will have to replace them.

    The Tories are indeed in deep shit, but both sides have tremendous problems

    Here is just one for Labour. Brexit

    If the polls continue fair for Starmer, and the Tories keep smashing themselves in the face with a shovel, he could actually win a majority. What would he do with that majority? Suddenly he has all the reins of power, he doesn’t have to rely on the Nats or the Libs.

    In that case I think he would come under intense pressure to reverse Brexit in some form. Not immediately rejoin, not yet, but re-enter the Single Market, accept Freedom of Movement again. Everyone around him is a Remainer, he is a Remainer, his friends and allies: they are all Remainers. They won’t be able to resist moving closer to the EU. They might be able to sell it as making life easier for traders and exporters, etc etc

    And that way lies much trouble
    Brexit was a manifesto of madness. A policy designed for gullible fools. The only thing worse would now be to try and reverse it. It isn't going to happen. If that is the only straw that The Clown has to cling to then Labour will win a majority.
    I’m not talking about Rejoin. I’m talking about an EFTA/EEA arrangement, solving a lot of the ongoing Brexit problems

    And, by the by, regaining Freedom of Movement

    This will be intensely seductive for Keir “2nd vote” Starmer, and 95% of his allies and supporters
    Sounds ideal. I'd be happy with that. Probably inevitable so I would stop worrying about it.
    I’m not “worrying”. I’m sitting on my ridiculously ramshackle new Tbilisi terrace staring across the old town at Shameba cathedral sipping cold white Georgian wine as I listen to the small children argue in Ossetian just below me

    It’s brilliant.




    I too would be OK with Freedom of Movement restored. But many won’t be. Yet that is the direction PM Starmer will want to go, emotionally
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175

    I wonder if I go back to Saturday's threads there'll be no PBers embarrassed by their comments when they read this story.

    Real Madrid supporters have recalled similar stories to Liverpool fans over the treatment they received at the Champions League final on Saturday, dismissing the notion the issues were solely caused by fans of the Premier League club.

    Real fans have spoken of similar bottleneck problems when entering the Stade de France and corroborated tales that those jumping security barriers were young locals rather than ticket-holders from either club.

    Supporters also spoke of their horror after the game when some fans were targeted by thieves as they made their way out of the stadium.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/champions-league-chaos-real-madrid-fans-claim-they-were-pepper-sprayed-and-robbed-in-paris-xk9qwvwg6

    Hang on, that suggests that Liverpool fans weren't treated any differently to the Real fans. Yet the Real fans seemed to be in the ground in plenty of time.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MISTY said:

    Leon said:

    As the Labour lead has increased since Rishi Sunak gave everyone £9,000, a bag of second hand salt, and a tiny inflatable plastic wildebeest, one has to wonder what would have happened if he had NOT been so generous. Would the Labour lead be 20 points plus? Or have the voters just banked the money and decided, Well, the Tories are mad spaffing socialists, I might as well support Labour - ie, would the Tories be doing better if they were meaner and more Tory?

    It is certainly possible

    When in power, labour can be relied on to be labour.

    The tories, by their actions over the last two and half years, cannot be relied to on be anything. From the moment they adopted the Chinese Communist Party policy of lockdown, on top of the Maoist arbitrary hard target of Net Zero by 2050 At All Costs, they were finished.

    And I think they are finished. Not just now, and not just for a generation. For ever.

    How could they ever sell themselves to the electorate as anything again? It would be like Hal the computer in A Space Odyssey telling Dave he was alright now.

    I'm feeling much better now voters. I favour low taxation. I favour personal responsibility. I want a small state and fiscal discipline. I want law and order. Mr sThatcher is my heroine. All as the voters shut the whole thing down.

    A new party/brand on the right will have to replace them.

    The Tories are indeed in deep shit, but both sides have tremendous problems

    Here is just one for Labour. Brexit

    If the polls continue fair for Starmer, and the Tories keep smashing themselves in the face with a shovel, he could actually win a majority. What would he do with that majority? Suddenly he has all the reins of power, he doesn’t have to rely on the Nats or the Libs.

    In that case I think he would come under intense pressure to reverse Brexit in some form. Not immediately rejoin, not yet, but re-enter the Single Market, accept Freedom of Movement again. Everyone around him is a Remainer, he is a Remainer, his friends and allies: they are all Remainers. They won’t be able to resist moving closer to the EU. They might be able to sell it as making life easier for traders and exporters, etc etc

    And that way lies much trouble
    Brexit was a manifesto of madness. A policy designed for gullible fools. The only thing worse would now be to try and reverse it. It isn't going to happen. If that is the only straw that The Clown has to cling to then Labour will win a majority.
    I’m not talking about Rejoin. I’m talking about an EFTA/EEA arrangement, solving a lot of the ongoing Brexit problems

    And, by the by, regaining Freedom of Movement

    This will be intensely seductive for Keir “2nd vote” Starmer, and 95% of his allies and supporters
    Which, in the mildly unlikely event of an incoming government adopting it as a priority, wouldn't be 'reversing' Brexit.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,632
    tlg86 said:

    I wonder if I go back to Saturday's threads there'll be no PBers embarrassed by their comments when they read this story.

    Real Madrid supporters have recalled similar stories to Liverpool fans over the treatment they received at the Champions League final on Saturday, dismissing the notion the issues were solely caused by fans of the Premier League club.

    Real fans have spoken of similar bottleneck problems when entering the Stade de France and corroborated tales that those jumping security barriers were young locals rather than ticket-holders from either club.

    Supporters also spoke of their horror after the game when some fans were targeted by thieves as they made their way out of the stadium.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/champions-league-chaos-real-madrid-fans-claim-they-were-pepper-sprayed-and-robbed-in-paris-xk9qwvwg6

    Hang on, that suggests that Liverpool fans weren't treated any differently to the Real fans. Yet the Real fans seemed to be in the ground in plenty of time.
    They were targeted, just not as robustly as Liverpool fans were.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,386
    tlg86 said:

    I wonder if I go back to Saturday's threads there'll be no PBers embarrassed by their comments when they read this story.

    Real Madrid supporters have recalled similar stories to Liverpool fans over the treatment they received at the Champions League final on Saturday, dismissing the notion the issues were solely caused by fans of the Premier League club.

    Real fans have spoken of similar bottleneck problems when entering the Stade de France and corroborated tales that those jumping security barriers were young locals rather than ticket-holders from either club.

    Supporters also spoke of their horror after the game when some fans were targeted by thieves as they made their way out of the stadium.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/champions-league-chaos-real-madrid-fans-claim-they-were-pepper-sprayed-and-robbed-in-paris-xk9qwvwg6

    Hang on, that suggests that Liverpool fans weren't treated any differently to the Real fans. Yet the Real fans seemed to be in the ground in plenty of time.
    Because they weren't fakes.

    I thank you.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,999
    edited May 2022

    I wonder if I go back to Saturday's threads there'll be no PBers embarrassed by their comments when they read this story.

    Real Madrid supporters have recalled similar stories to Liverpool fans over the treatment they received at the Champions League final on Saturday, dismissing the notion the issues were solely caused by fans of the Premier League club.

    Real fans have spoken of similar bottleneck problems when entering the Stade de France and corroborated tales that those jumping security barriers were young locals rather than ticket-holders from either club.

    Supporters also spoke of their horror after the game when some fans were targeted by thieves as they made their way out of the stadium.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/champions-league-chaos-real-madrid-fans-claim-they-were-pepper-sprayed-and-robbed-in-paris-xk9qwvwg6

    I actually think fairly quickly people on here (even before kick-off) said hold on a minute look at the videos there is a pattern here and it doesn't seem on the whole to be anything to do with English, I mean Scouse, Liverpool fans. Not unless the Liverpool fanbase has suddenly become overwhelmingly dominated by fluent French speakers of North African descent.

    Although have to be careful in pigeonholing I heard there are some genuine Liverpool fans who wear genuine £2000 shoes and speak fluent French with no hint of a scouse accent. They could easily be labelled as not a genuine fan.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402
    edited May 2022
    The only thing which would shake my determination to vote Labour next time would be a promise to waste 5 years banging on about Brexit.
    Might as well have the Tories. At least they are good at it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MISTY said:

    Leon said:

    As the Labour lead has increased since Rishi Sunak gave everyone £9,000, a bag of second hand salt, and a tiny inflatable plastic wildebeest, one has to wonder what would have happened if he had NOT been so generous. Would the Labour lead be 20 points plus? Or have the voters just banked the money and decided, Well, the Tories are mad spaffing socialists, I might as well support Labour - ie, would the Tories be doing better if they were meaner and more Tory?

    It is certainly possible

    When in power, labour can be relied on to be labour.

    The tories, by their actions over the last two and half years, cannot be relied to on be anything. From the moment they adopted the Chinese Communist Party policy of lockdown, on top of the Maoist arbitrary hard target of Net Zero by 2050 At All Costs, they were finished.

    And I think they are finished. Not just now, and not just for a generation. For ever.

    How could they ever sell themselves to the electorate as anything again? It would be like Hal the computer in A Space Odyssey telling Dave he was alright now.

    I'm feeling much better now voters. I favour low taxation. I favour personal responsibility. I want a small state and fiscal discipline. I want law and order. Mr sThatcher is my heroine. All as the voters shut the whole thing down.

    A new party/brand on the right will have to replace them.

    The Tories are indeed in deep shit, but both sides have tremendous problems

    Here is just one for Labour. Brexit

    If the polls continue fair for Starmer, and the Tories keep smashing themselves in the face with a shovel, he could actually win a majority. What would he do with that majority? Suddenly he has all the reins of power, he doesn’t have to rely on the Nats or the Libs.

    In that case I think he would come under intense pressure to reverse Brexit in some form. Not immediately rejoin, not yet, but re-enter the Single Market, accept Freedom of Movement again. Everyone around him is a Remainer, he is a Remainer, his friends and allies: they are all Remainers. They won’t be able to resist moving closer to the EU. They might be able to sell it as making life easier for traders and exporters, etc etc

    And that way lies much trouble
    Brexit was a manifesto of madness. A policy designed for gullible fools. The only thing worse would now be to try and reverse it. It isn't going to happen. If that is the only straw that The Clown has to cling to then Labour will win a majority.
    I’m not talking about Rejoin. I’m talking about an EFTA/EEA arrangement, solving a lot of the ongoing Brexit problems

    And, by the by, regaining Freedom of Movement

    This will be intensely seductive for Keir “2nd vote” Starmer, and 95% of his allies and supporters
    But that isn't "reversing Brexit".
    I literally said “REVERSE BREXIT IN SOME FORM. NOT IMMEDIATELY REJOIN, NOT YET, BUT RE-ENTER THE SINGLE MARKET”

    FFS, read the comments
    We read the comments.
    That's not reversing Brexit.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    I wonder if I go back to Saturday's threads there'll be no PBers embarrassed by their comments when they read this story.

    Real Madrid supporters have recalled similar stories to Liverpool fans over the treatment they received at the Champions League final on Saturday, dismissing the notion the issues were solely caused by fans of the Premier League club.

    Real fans have spoken of similar bottleneck problems when entering the Stade de France and corroborated tales that those jumping security barriers were young locals rather than ticket-holders from either club.

    Supporters also spoke of their horror after the game when some fans were targeted by thieves as they made their way out of the stadium.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/champions-league-chaos-real-madrid-fans-claim-they-were-pepper-sprayed-and-robbed-in-paris-xk9qwvwg6

    Poverty and violence tourists encounter violent poor people.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,630
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MISTY said:

    Leon said:

    As the Labour lead has increased since Rishi Sunak gave everyone £9,000, a bag of second hand salt, and a tiny inflatable plastic wildebeest, one has to wonder what would have happened if he had NOT been so generous. Would the Labour lead be 20 points plus? Or have the voters just banked the money and decided, Well, the Tories are mad spaffing socialists, I might as well support Labour - ie, would the Tories be doing better if they were meaner and more Tory?

    It is certainly possible

    When in power, labour can be relied on to be labour.

    The tories, by their actions over the last two and half years, cannot be relied to on be anything. From the moment they adopted the Chinese Communist Party policy of lockdown, on top of the Maoist arbitrary hard target of Net Zero by 2050 At All Costs, they were finished.

    And I think they are finished. Not just now, and not just for a generation. For ever.

    How could they ever sell themselves to the electorate as anything again? It would be like Hal the computer in A Space Odyssey telling Dave he was alright now.

    I'm feeling much better now voters. I favour low taxation. I favour personal responsibility. I want a small state and fiscal discipline. I want law and order. Mr sThatcher is my heroine. All as the voters shut the whole thing down.

    A new party/brand on the right will have to replace them.

    The Tories are indeed in deep shit, but both sides have tremendous problems

    Here is just one for Labour. Brexit

    If the polls continue fair for Starmer, and the Tories keep smashing themselves in the face with a shovel, he could actually win a majority. What would he do with that majority? Suddenly he has all the reins of power, he doesn’t have to rely on the Nats or the Libs.

    In that case I think he would come under intense pressure to reverse Brexit in some form. Not immediately rejoin, not yet, but re-enter the Single Market, accept Freedom of Movement again. Everyone around him is a Remainer, he is a Remainer, his friends and allies: they are all Remainers. They won’t be able to resist moving closer to the EU. They might be able to sell it as making life easier for traders and exporters, etc etc

    And that way lies much trouble
    Brexit was a manifesto of madness. A policy designed for gullible fools. The only thing worse would now be to try and reverse it. It isn't going to happen. If that is the only straw that The Clown has to cling to then Labour will win a majority.
    I’m not talking about Rejoin. I’m talking about an EFTA/EEA arrangement, solving a lot of the ongoing Brexit problems

    And, by the by, regaining Freedom of Movement

    This will be intensely seductive for Keir “2nd vote” Starmer, and 95% of his allies and supporters
    Paradoxically I think a deal for reciprocal free movement (that any future government could amend) would be less politically toxic than regulatory alignment by stealth.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    edited May 2022
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MISTY said:

    Leon said:

    As the Labour lead has increased since Rishi Sunak gave everyone £9,000, a bag of second hand salt, and a tiny inflatable plastic wildebeest, one has to wonder what would have happened if he had NOT been so generous. Would the Labour lead be 20 points plus? Or have the voters just banked the money and decided, Well, the Tories are mad spaffing socialists, I might as well support Labour - ie, would the Tories be doing better if they were meaner and more Tory?

    It is certainly possible

    When in power, labour can be relied on to be labour.

    The tories, by their actions over the last two and half years, cannot be relied to on be anything. From the moment they adopted the Chinese Communist Party policy of lockdown, on top of the Maoist arbitrary hard target of Net Zero by 2050 At All Costs, they were finished.

    And I think they are finished. Not just now, and not just for a generation. For ever.

    How could they ever sell themselves to the electorate as anything again? It would be like Hal the computer in A Space Odyssey telling Dave he was alright now.

    I'm feeling much better now voters. I favour low taxation. I favour personal responsibility. I want a small state and fiscal discipline. I want law and order. Mr sThatcher is my heroine. All as the voters shut the whole thing down.

    A new party/brand on the right will have to replace them.

    The Tories are indeed in deep shit, but both sides have tremendous problems

    Here is just one for Labour. Brexit

    If the polls continue fair for Starmer, and the Tories keep smashing themselves in the face with a shovel, he could actually win a majority. What would he do with that majority? Suddenly he has all the reins of power, he doesn’t have to rely on the Nats or the Libs.

    In that case I think he would come under intense pressure to reverse Brexit in some form. Not immediately rejoin, not yet, but re-enter the Single Market, accept Freedom of Movement again. Everyone around him is a Remainer, he is a Remainer, his friends and allies: they are all Remainers. They won’t be able to resist moving closer to the EU. They might be able to sell it as making life easier for traders and exporters, etc etc

    And that way lies much trouble
    Brexit was a manifesto of madness. A policy designed for gullible fools. The only thing worse would now be to try and reverse it. It isn't going to happen. If that is the only straw that The Clown has to cling to then Labour will win a majority.
    I’m not talking about Rejoin. I’m talking about an EFTA/EEA arrangement, solving a lot of the ongoing Brexit problems

    And, by the by, regaining Freedom of Movement

    This will be intensely seductive for Keir “2nd vote” Starmer, and 95% of his allies and supporters
    Heaven forfend that Keir Starmer do something that would "solve a lot of problems".

    It will lead to electoral DOOM, I tell you.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486
    tlg86 said:

    I wonder if I go back to Saturday's threads there'll be no PBers embarrassed by their comments when they read this story.

    Real Madrid supporters have recalled similar stories to Liverpool fans over the treatment they received at the Champions League final on Saturday, dismissing the notion the issues were solely caused by fans of the Premier League club.

    Real fans have spoken of similar bottleneck problems when entering the Stade de France and corroborated tales that those jumping security barriers were young locals rather than ticket-holders from either club.

    Supporters also spoke of their horror after the game when some fans were targeted by thieves as they made their way out of the stadium.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/champions-league-chaos-real-madrid-fans-claim-they-were-pepper-sprayed-and-robbed-in-paris-xk9qwvwg6

    Hang on, that suggests that Liverpool fans weren't treated any differently to the Real fans. Yet the Real fans seemed to be in the ground in plenty of time.
    The Liverpool fans entrance was via a different route to the Madrid fans. Reading on French twitter threads yesterday they were saying there was an issue with the metro station that takes you to that part of the stadium and the access is also different and so the bad access points that were made worse by police narrowing them added to the different layout of approach and arrival contributed to two different outcomes.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Look at this courtyard on my immediate right





    How fucking brilliant is that? Earlier there was literally A SHIRTLESS, VILLAINOUS LOOKING MAN standing at that wooden window. I’ve no doubt he will soon burst into Neapolitan-esque song, and then hurl obscure and violent curses at me - which I won’t even understand, and I shall smile unsurely and wave and say “gamarjoba”, with a hint of British awkwardness
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    .
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    dixiedean said:

    Top tip.
    Professional landlords. Solve your financial problems by simply getting a proper job.

    Why is providing high quality housing services not a proper job?

    Houses don't maintain or invest in themselves. Traditionally 15-20% or so of the income goes on maintenance and investment, often done in advance during a full refurbishment with a 10 year+ return period.
    So they’re doing 15-20% of a proper job?

    What?

    You think that businesses are only entitled to one element of their business expenses, and no income?

    So a butcher is only entitled to the money paid for meat supplies, and not the revenue that pays for the shop, the staff expenses, the tax and the maintenance of the finance which allowed investment in the business?
    I think a butcher makes a small % on top of their costs whereas a landlord makes a very large %. There is a reason why economics has the term “rent seeking”.
    Your evidence of that? And that whatever the % is is universally unreasonable?

    Bearing in mind the 30-100k investment that may have been made upfront in a refurbishment.

    If rents consistently increase more slowly than inflation (which is true), and the quality of accommodation consistently increases (which it does), that actually suggests that it is working quite well.
    What about the large number of BTL landlords who use the rent to pay their mortgage?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MISTY said:

    Leon said:

    As the Labour lead has increased since Rishi Sunak gave everyone £9,000, a bag of second hand salt, and a tiny inflatable plastic wildebeest, one has to wonder what would have happened if he had NOT been so generous. Would the Labour lead be 20 points plus? Or have the voters just banked the money and decided, Well, the Tories are mad spaffing socialists, I might as well support Labour - ie, would the Tories be doing better if they were meaner and more Tory?

    It is certainly possible

    When in power, labour can be relied on to be labour.

    The tories, by their actions over the last two and half years, cannot be relied to on be anything. From the moment they adopted the Chinese Communist Party policy of lockdown, on top of the Maoist arbitrary hard target of Net Zero by 2050 At All Costs, they were finished.

    And I think they are finished. Not just now, and not just for a generation. For ever.

    How could they ever sell themselves to the electorate as anything again? It would be like Hal the computer in A Space Odyssey telling Dave he was alright now.

    I'm feeling much better now voters. I favour low taxation. I favour personal responsibility. I want a small state and fiscal discipline. I want law and order. Mr sThatcher is my heroine. All as the voters shut the whole thing down.

    A new party/brand on the right will have to replace them.

    The Tories are indeed in deep shit, but both sides have tremendous problems

    Here is just one for Labour. Brexit

    If the polls continue fair for Starmer, and the Tories keep smashing themselves in the face with a shovel, he could actually win a majority. What would he do with that majority? Suddenly he has all the reins of power, he doesn’t have to rely on the Nats or the Libs.

    In that case I think he would come under intense pressure to reverse Brexit in some form. Not immediately rejoin, not yet, but re-enter the Single Market, accept Freedom of Movement again. Everyone around him is a Remainer, he is a Remainer, his friends and allies: they are all Remainers. They won’t be able to resist moving closer to the EU. They might be able to sell it as making life easier for traders and exporters, etc etc

    And that way lies much trouble
    Brexit was a manifesto of madness. A policy designed for gullible fools. The only thing worse would now be to try and reverse it. It isn't going to happen. If that is the only straw that The Clown has to cling to then Labour will win a majority.
    ...solving a lot of the ongoing Brexit problems
    Problems you say?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    edited May 2022

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MISTY said:

    Leon said:

    As the Labour lead has increased since Rishi Sunak gave everyone £9,000, a bag of second hand salt, and a tiny inflatable plastic wildebeest, one has to wonder what would have happened if he had NOT been so generous. Would the Labour lead be 20 points plus? Or have the voters just banked the money and decided, Well, the Tories are mad spaffing socialists, I might as well support Labour - ie, would the Tories be doing better if they were meaner and more Tory?

    It is certainly possible

    When in power, labour can be relied on to be labour.

    The tories, by their actions over the last two and half years, cannot be relied to on be anything. From the moment they adopted the Chinese Communist Party policy of lockdown, on top of the Maoist arbitrary hard target of Net Zero by 2050 At All Costs, they were finished.

    And I think they are finished. Not just now, and not just for a generation. For ever.

    How could they ever sell themselves to the electorate as anything again? It would be like Hal the computer in A Space Odyssey telling Dave he was alright now.

    I'm feeling much better now voters. I favour low taxation. I favour personal responsibility. I want a small state and fiscal discipline. I want law and order. Mr sThatcher is my heroine. All as the voters shut the whole thing down.

    A new party/brand on the right will have to replace them.

    The Tories are indeed in deep shit, but both sides have tremendous problems

    Here is just one for Labour. Brexit

    If the polls continue fair for Starmer, and the Tories keep smashing themselves in the face with a shovel, he could actually win a majority. What would he do with that majority? Suddenly he has all the reins of power, he doesn’t have to rely on the Nats or the Libs.

    In that case I think he would come under intense pressure to reverse Brexit in some form. Not immediately rejoin, not yet, but re-enter the Single Market, accept Freedom of Movement again. Everyone around him is a Remainer, he is a Remainer, his friends and allies: they are all Remainers. They won’t be able to resist moving closer to the EU. They might be able to sell it as making life easier for traders and exporters, etc etc

    And that way lies much trouble
    Brexit was a manifesto of madness. A policy designed for gullible fools. The only thing worse would now be to try and reverse it. It isn't going to happen. If that is the only straw that The Clown has to cling to then Labour will win a majority.
    I’m not talking about Rejoin. I’m talking about an EFTA/EEA arrangement, solving a lot of the ongoing Brexit problems

    And, by the by, regaining Freedom of Movement

    This will be intensely seductive for Keir “2nd vote” Starmer, and 95% of his allies and supporters
    Heaven forfend that Keir Starmer do something that would "solve a lot of problems".

    It will lead to electoral DOOM, I tell you.
    Even this would lead to reigniting the foulness of 2017 to 2019 but even more pronounced. There is no way Starmer would be able to sell it to all those that voted in droves to 'get Brexit done' nor contain their rage at what would be seen as an undoing (without even a referendum). Would be socially disastrous.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,788
    Mr. Eagles, if Hunt were to win a leadership contest in the near future, would that be sufficient (if he behaves as one might expect) to get you back in the Conservative fold?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,059
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    dixiedean said:

    Top tip.
    Professional landlords. Solve your financial problems by simply getting a proper job.

    Why is providing high quality housing services not a proper job?

    Houses don't maintain or invest in themselves. Traditionally 15-20% or so of the income goes on maintenance and investment, often done in advance during a full refurbishment with a 10 year+ return period.
    So they’re doing 15-20% of a proper job?

    What?

    You think that businesses are only entitled to one element of their business expenses, and no income?

    So a butcher is only entitled to the money paid for meat supplies, and not the revenue that pays for the shop, the staff expenses, the tax and the maintenance of the finance which allowed investment in the business?
    I think a butcher makes a small % on top of their costs whereas a landlord makes a very large %. There is a reason why economics has the term “rent seeking”.
    Your evidence of that? And that whatever the % is is universally unreasonable?

    Bearing in mind the 30-100k investment that may have been made upfront in a refurbishment.

    If rents consistently increase more slowly than inflation (which is true), and the quality of accommodation consistently increases (which it does), that actually suggests that it is working quite well.
    My evidence for economics having a term “rent seeking”? Look in an economics textbook.

    As for landlords, I thought this an interesting article that touches on some of these issues: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13563467.2017.1401055
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,241
    Leon said:

    Look at this courtyard on my immediate right





    How fucking brilliant is that? Earlier there was literally A SHIRTLESS, VILLAINOUS LOOKING MAN standing at that wooden window. I’ve no doubt he will soon burst into Neapolitan-esque song, and then hurl obscure and violent curses at me - which I won’t even understand, and I shall smile unsurely and wave and say “gamarjoba”, with a hint of British awkwardness

    You've been doing the luxury travelling thing for too long. On my low cost carrier and Booking.com trips I see that sort of thing all the time. You will like Albania, especially the old Ottoman cities of Berat and Gjirokaster.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    boulay said:

    tlg86 said:

    I wonder if I go back to Saturday's threads there'll be no PBers embarrassed by their comments when they read this story.

    Real Madrid supporters have recalled similar stories to Liverpool fans over the treatment they received at the Champions League final on Saturday, dismissing the notion the issues were solely caused by fans of the Premier League club.

    Real fans have spoken of similar bottleneck problems when entering the Stade de France and corroborated tales that those jumping security barriers were young locals rather than ticket-holders from either club.

    Supporters also spoke of their horror after the game when some fans were targeted by thieves as they made their way out of the stadium.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/champions-league-chaos-real-madrid-fans-claim-they-were-pepper-sprayed-and-robbed-in-paris-xk9qwvwg6

    Hang on, that suggests that Liverpool fans weren't treated any differently to the Real fans. Yet the Real fans seemed to be in the ground in plenty of time.
    The Liverpool fans entrance was via a different route to the Madrid fans. Reading on French twitter threads yesterday they were saying there was an issue with the metro station that takes you to that part of the stadium and the access is also different and so the bad access points that were made worse by police narrowing them added to the different layout of approach and arrival contributed to two different outcomes.

    Yep. The Madrid fans were sent to a different station (another RER station?) because their end of the stadium was better accessed from that station. That’s all it is. Pure luck, or bad luck. The ugly locals waited outside “Liverpool’s” station. Apparently

    Indeed if i was a racaille from the hood determined on thieving, I would personally prefer to target Madrid fans over Liverpool fans, as probably being wealthier, less punchy, less drunk, and therefore less likely to resist
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,632

    Mr. Eagles, if Hunt were to win a leadership contest in the near future, would that be sufficient (if he behaves as one might expect) to get you back in the Conservative fold?

    Yes.

    He will need my assistance to purge the Boris enablers.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,632
    Same.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    Mr. Eagles, if Hunt were to win a leadership contest in the near future, would that be sufficient (if he behaves as one might expect) to get you back in the Conservative fold?

    Yes.

    He will need my assistance to purge the Boris enablers.
    All 14 million of them?
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679
    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MISTY said:

    Leon said:

    As the Labour lead has increased since Rishi Sunak gave everyone £9,000, a bag of second hand salt, and a tiny inflatable plastic wildebeest, one has to wonder what would have happened if he had NOT been so generous. Would the Labour lead be 20 points plus? Or have the voters just banked the money and decided, Well, the Tories are mad spaffing socialists, I might as well support Labour - ie, would the Tories be doing better if they were meaner and more Tory?

    It is certainly possible

    When in power, labour can be relied on to be labour.

    The tories, by their actions over the last two and half years, cannot be relied to on be anything. From the moment they adopted the Chinese Communist Party policy of lockdown, on top of the Maoist arbitrary hard target of Net Zero by 2050 At All Costs, they were finished.

    And I think they are finished. Not just now, and not just for a generation. For ever.

    How could they ever sell themselves to the electorate as anything again? It would be like Hal the computer in A Space Odyssey telling Dave he was alright now.

    I'm feeling much better now voters. I favour low taxation. I favour personal responsibility. I want a small state and fiscal discipline. I want law and order. Mr sThatcher is my heroine. All as the voters shut the whole thing down.

    A new party/brand on the right will have to replace them.

    The Tories are indeed in deep shit, but both sides have tremendous problems

    Here is just one for Labour. Brexit

    If the polls continue fair for Starmer, and the Tories keep smashing themselves in the face with a shovel, he could actually win a majority. What would he do with that majority? Suddenly he has all the reins of power, he doesn’t have to rely on the Nats or the Libs.

    In that case I think he would come under intense pressure to reverse Brexit in some form. Not immediately rejoin, not yet, but re-enter the Single Market, accept Freedom of Movement again. Everyone around him is a Remainer, he is a Remainer, his friends and allies: they are all Remainers. They won’t be able to resist moving closer to the EU. They might be able to sell it as making life easier for traders and exporters, etc etc

    And that way lies much trouble
    Brexit was a manifesto of madness. A policy designed for gullible fools. The only thing worse would now be to try and reverse it. It isn't going to happen. If that is the only straw that The Clown has to cling to then Labour will win a majority.
    I’m not talking about Rejoin. I’m talking about an EFTA/EEA arrangement, solving a lot of the ongoing Brexit problems

    And, by the by, regaining Freedom of Movement

    This will be intensely seductive for Keir “2nd vote” Starmer, and 95% of his allies and supporters
    But that isn't "reversing Brexit".
    I literally said “REVERSE BREXIT IN SOME FORM. NOT IMMEDIATELY REJOIN, NOT YET, BUT RE-ENTER THE SINGLE MARKET”

    FFS, read the comments
    Hold on. Mr Rees-Mogg has released his 2,000 Brexit benefits this very morn. Let's just wait. Could be a game changer. The freedom of not having to do certain electrical safety checks could put the Tories 20 points ahead.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,241
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MISTY said:

    Leon said:

    As the Labour lead has increased since Rishi Sunak gave everyone £9,000, a bag of second hand salt, and a tiny inflatable plastic wildebeest, one has to wonder what would have happened if he had NOT been so generous. Would the Labour lead be 20 points plus? Or have the voters just banked the money and decided, Well, the Tories are mad spaffing socialists, I might as well support Labour - ie, would the Tories be doing better if they were meaner and more Tory?

    It is certainly possible

    When in power, labour can be relied on to be labour.

    The tories, by their actions over the last two and half years, cannot be relied to on be anything. From the moment they adopted the Chinese Communist Party policy of lockdown, on top of the Maoist arbitrary hard target of Net Zero by 2050 At All Costs, they were finished.

    And I think they are finished. Not just now, and not just for a generation. For ever.

    How could they ever sell themselves to the electorate as anything again? It would be like Hal the computer in A Space Odyssey telling Dave he was alright now.

    I'm feeling much better now voters. I favour low taxation. I favour personal responsibility. I want a small state and fiscal discipline. I want law and order. Mr sThatcher is my heroine. All as the voters shut the whole thing down.

    A new party/brand on the right will have to replace them.

    The Tories are indeed in deep shit, but both sides have tremendous problems

    Here is just one for Labour. Brexit

    If the polls continue fair for Starmer, and the Tories keep smashing themselves in the face with a shovel, he could actually win a majority. What would he do with that majority? Suddenly he has all the reins of power, he doesn’t have to rely on the Nats or the Libs.

    In that case I think he would come under intense pressure to reverse Brexit in some form. Not immediately rejoin, not yet, but re-enter the Single Market, accept Freedom of Movement again. Everyone around him is a Remainer, he is a Remainer, his friends and allies: they are all Remainers. They won’t be able to resist moving closer to the EU. They might be able to sell it as making life easier for traders and exporters, etc etc

    And that way lies much trouble
    Brexit was a manifesto of madness. A policy designed for gullible fools. The only thing worse would now be to try and reverse it. It isn't going to happen. If that is the only straw that The Clown has to cling to then Labour will win a majority.
    I’m not talking about Rejoin. I’m talking about an EFTA/EEA arrangement, solving a lot of the ongoing Brexit problems

    And, by the by, regaining Freedom of Movement

    This will be intensely seductive for Keir “2nd vote” Starmer, and 95% of his allies and supporters
    Sounds ideal. I'd be happy with that. Probably inevitable so I would stop worrying about it.
    I’m not “worrying”. I’m sitting on my ridiculously ramshackle new Tbilisi terrace staring across the old town at Shameba cathedral sipping cold white Georgian wine as I listen to the small children argue in Ossetian just below me

    It’s brilliant.




    I too would be OK with Freedom of Movement restored. But many won’t be. Yet that is the direction PM Starmer will want to go, emotionally
    Have you tried the qvevri yet? What did you think?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,386

    Same.

    I'm pretty sure it was the first, actually...
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,632
    Applicant said:

    Mr. Eagles, if Hunt were to win a leadership contest in the near future, would that be sufficient (if he behaves as one might expect) to get you back in the Conservative fold?

    Yes.

    He will need my assistance to purge the Boris enablers.
    All 14 million of them?
    No the socialists in the Parliamentary Conservative Party.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MISTY said:

    Leon said:

    As the Labour lead has increased since Rishi Sunak gave everyone £9,000, a bag of second hand salt, and a tiny inflatable plastic wildebeest, one has to wonder what would have happened if he had NOT been so generous. Would the Labour lead be 20 points plus? Or have the voters just banked the money and decided, Well, the Tories are mad spaffing socialists, I might as well support Labour - ie, would the Tories be doing better if they were meaner and more Tory?

    It is certainly possible

    When in power, labour can be relied on to be labour.

    The tories, by their actions over the last two and half years, cannot be relied to on be anything. From the moment they adopted the Chinese Communist Party policy of lockdown, on top of the Maoist arbitrary hard target of Net Zero by 2050 At All Costs, they were finished.

    And I think they are finished. Not just now, and not just for a generation. For ever.

    How could they ever sell themselves to the electorate as anything again? It would be like Hal the computer in A Space Odyssey telling Dave he was alright now.

    I'm feeling much better now voters. I favour low taxation. I favour personal responsibility. I want a small state and fiscal discipline. I want law and order. Mr sThatcher is my heroine. All as the voters shut the whole thing down.

    A new party/brand on the right will have to replace them.

    The Tories are indeed in deep shit, but both sides have tremendous problems

    Here is just one for Labour. Brexit

    If the polls continue fair for Starmer, and the Tories keep smashing themselves in the face with a shovel, he could actually win a majority. What would he do with that majority? Suddenly he has all the reins of power, he doesn’t have to rely on the Nats or the Libs.

    In that case I think he would come under intense pressure to reverse Brexit in some form. Not immediately rejoin, not yet, but re-enter the Single Market, accept Freedom of Movement again. Everyone around him is a Remainer, he is a Remainer, his friends and allies: they are all Remainers. They won’t be able to resist moving closer to the EU. They might be able to sell it as making life easier for traders and exporters, etc etc

    And that way lies much trouble
    Brexit was a manifesto of madness. A policy designed for gullible fools. The only thing worse would now be to try and reverse it. It isn't going to happen. If that is the only straw that The Clown has to cling to then Labour will win a majority.
    I’m not talking about Rejoin. I’m talking about an EFTA/EEA arrangement, solving a lot of the ongoing Brexit problems

    And, by the by, regaining Freedom of Movement

    This will be intensely seductive for Keir “2nd vote” Starmer, and 95% of his allies and supporters
    But that isn't "reversing Brexit".
    I literally said “REVERSE BREXIT IN SOME FORM. NOT IMMEDIATELY REJOIN, NOT YET, BUT RE-ENTER THE SINGLE MARKET”

    FFS, read the comments
    Hold on. Mr Rees-Mogg has released his 2,000 Brexit benefits this very morn. Let's just wait. Could be a game changer. The freedom of not having to do certain electrical safety checks could put the Tories 20 points ahead.
    The Minister for Brexit Opportunities.
    Or Without Portfolio as we used to call it.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    If anyone is in any doubt about what SKS might or might not do were he to become PM they could do a lot worse than read up on TBlair's current position. The two meet regularly and not I'm sure to talk about late flowering shrubs.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,039
    Has this been reported

    John Stevenson becomes letter number 28
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005

    Same.

    There is surely zero chance that Theresa hasn't put in her letter already.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    edited May 2022
    AlistairM said:

    Same.

    There is surely zero chance that Theresa hasn't put in her letter already.
    Oh totally. She will enjoy every moment.
    Although she might be waiting so when rumours of 'its close' emerge she can try and ensure its over the line
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    AlistairM said:

    Same.

    There is surely zero chance that Theresa hasn't put in her letter already.
    I'm assuming hers has been in since December 2019.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402

    Has this been reported

    John Stevenson becomes letter number 28

    Yes. It's gathering. It can't be far off now. The PM is vindictive. I would think twice about publicly confirming it.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MISTY said:

    Leon said:

    As the Labour lead has increased since Rishi Sunak gave everyone £9,000, a bag of second hand salt, and a tiny inflatable plastic wildebeest, one has to wonder what would have happened if he had NOT been so generous. Would the Labour lead be 20 points plus? Or have the voters just banked the money and decided, Well, the Tories are mad spaffing socialists, I might as well support Labour - ie, would the Tories be doing better if they were meaner and more Tory?

    It is certainly possible

    When in power, labour can be relied on to be labour.

    The tories, by their actions over the last two and half years, cannot be relied to on be anything. From the moment they adopted the Chinese Communist Party policy of lockdown, on top of the Maoist arbitrary hard target of Net Zero by 2050 At All Costs, they were finished.

    And I think they are finished. Not just now, and not just for a generation. For ever.

    How could they ever sell themselves to the electorate as anything again? It would be like Hal the computer in A Space Odyssey telling Dave he was alright now.

    I'm feeling much better now voters. I favour low taxation. I favour personal responsibility. I want a small state and fiscal discipline. I want law and order. Mr sThatcher is my heroine. All as the voters shut the whole thing down.

    A new party/brand on the right will have to replace them.

    The Tories are indeed in deep shit, but both sides have tremendous problems

    Here is just one for Labour. Brexit

    If the polls continue fair for Starmer, and the Tories keep smashing themselves in the face with a shovel, he could actually win a majority. What would he do with that majority? Suddenly he has all the reins of power, he doesn’t have to rely on the Nats or the Libs.

    In that case I think he would come under intense pressure to reverse Brexit in some form. Not immediately rejoin, not yet, but re-enter the Single Market, accept Freedom of Movement again. Everyone around him is a Remainer, he is a Remainer, his friends and allies: they are all Remainers. They won’t be able to resist moving closer to the EU. They might be able to sell it as making life easier for traders and exporters, etc etc

    And that way lies much trouble
    Brexit was a manifesto of madness. A policy designed for gullible fools. The only thing worse would now be to try and reverse it. It isn't going to happen. If that is the only straw that The Clown has to cling to then Labour will win a majority.
    I’m not talking about Rejoin. I’m talking about an EFTA/EEA arrangement, solving a lot of the ongoing Brexit problems

    And, by the by, regaining Freedom of Movement

    This will be intensely seductive for Keir “2nd vote” Starmer, and 95% of his allies and supporters
    Sounds ideal. I'd be happy with that. Probably inevitable so I would stop worrying about it.
    I’m not “worrying”. I’m sitting on my ridiculously ramshackle new Tbilisi terrace staring across the old town at Shameba cathedral sipping cold white Georgian wine as I listen to the small children argue in Ossetian just below me

    It’s brilliant.




    I too would be OK with Freedom of Movement restored. But many won’t be. Yet that is the direction PM Starmer will want to go, emotionally
    Have you tried the qvevri yet? What did you think?
    What is qvevri? I’m trying a lot of wine, is that the amber coloured one? If so, yes. I have, and its delicious
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,386
    Applicant said:

    AlistairM said:

    Same.

    There is surely zero chance that Theresa hasn't put in her letter already.
    I'm assuming hers has been in since December 2019.
    REally? I always assumed she put it in in August 2019!
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MISTY said:

    Leon said:

    As the Labour lead has increased since Rishi Sunak gave everyone £9,000, a bag of second hand salt, and a tiny inflatable plastic wildebeest, one has to wonder what would have happened if he had NOT been so generous. Would the Labour lead be 20 points plus? Or have the voters just banked the money and decided, Well, the Tories are mad spaffing socialists, I might as well support Labour - ie, would the Tories be doing better if they were meaner and more Tory?

    It is certainly possible

    When in power, labour can be relied on to be labour.

    The tories, by their actions over the last two and half years, cannot be relied to on be anything. From the moment they adopted the Chinese Communist Party policy of lockdown, on top of the Maoist arbitrary hard target of Net Zero by 2050 At All Costs, they were finished.

    And I think they are finished. Not just now, and not just for a generation. For ever.

    How could they ever sell themselves to the electorate as anything again? It would be like Hal the computer in A Space Odyssey telling Dave he was alright now.

    I'm feeling much better now voters. I favour low taxation. I favour personal responsibility. I want a small state and fiscal discipline. I want law and order. Mr sThatcher is my heroine. All as the voters shut the whole thing down.

    A new party/brand on the right will have to replace them.

    The Tories are indeed in deep shit, but both sides have tremendous problems

    Here is just one for Labour. Brexit

    If the polls continue fair for Starmer, and the Tories keep smashing themselves in the face with a shovel, he could actually win a majority. What would he do with that majority? Suddenly he has all the reins of power, he doesn’t have to rely on the Nats or the Libs.

    In that case I think he would come under intense pressure to reverse Brexit in some form. Not immediately rejoin, not yet, but re-enter the Single Market, accept Freedom of Movement again. Everyone around him is a Remainer, he is a Remainer, his friends and allies: they are all Remainers. They won’t be able to resist moving closer to the EU. They might be able to sell it as making life easier for traders and exporters, etc etc

    And that way lies much trouble
    Brexit was a manifesto of madness. A policy designed for gullible fools. The only thing worse would now be to try and reverse it. It isn't going to happen. If that is the only straw that The Clown has to cling to then Labour will win a majority.
    I’m not talking about Rejoin. I’m talking about an EFTA/EEA arrangement, solving a lot of the ongoing Brexit problems

    And, by the by, regaining Freedom of Movement

    This will be intensely seductive for Keir “2nd vote” Starmer, and 95% of his allies and supporters
    But that isn't "reversing Brexit".
    I literally said “REVERSE BREXIT IN SOME FORM. NOT IMMEDIATELY REJOIN, NOT YET, BUT RE-ENTER THE SINGLE MARKET”

    FFS, read the comments
    Hold on. Mr Rees-Mogg has released his 2,000 Brexit benefits this very morn. Let's just wait. Could be a game changer. The freedom of not having to do certain electrical safety checks could put the Tories 20 points ahead.
    Don't forget more powerful vacuum cleaners.
    This government sucks.
    Big time.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,901

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MISTY said:

    Leon said:

    As the Labour lead has increased since Rishi Sunak gave everyone £9,000, a bag of second hand salt, and a tiny inflatable plastic wildebeest, one has to wonder what would have happened if he had NOT been so generous. Would the Labour lead be 20 points plus? Or have the voters just banked the money and decided, Well, the Tories are mad spaffing socialists, I might as well support Labour - ie, would the Tories be doing better if they were meaner and more Tory?

    It is certainly possible

    When in power, labour can be relied on to be labour.

    The tories, by their actions over the last two and half years, cannot be relied to on be anything. From the moment they adopted the Chinese Communist Party policy of lockdown, on top of the Maoist arbitrary hard target of Net Zero by 2050 At All Costs, they were finished.

    And I think they are finished. Not just now, and not just for a generation. For ever.

    How could they ever sell themselves to the electorate as anything again? It would be like Hal the computer in A Space Odyssey telling Dave he was alright now.

    I'm feeling much better now voters. I favour low taxation. I favour personal responsibility. I want a small state and fiscal discipline. I want law and order. Mr sThatcher is my heroine. All as the voters shut the whole thing down.

    A new party/brand on the right will have to replace them.

    The Tories are indeed in deep shit, but both sides have tremendous problems

    Here is just one for Labour. Brexit

    If the polls continue fair for Starmer, and the Tories keep smashing themselves in the face with a shovel, he could actually win a majority. What would he do with that majority? Suddenly he has all the reins of power, he doesn’t have to rely on the Nats or the Libs.

    In that case I think he would come under intense pressure to reverse Brexit in some form. Not immediately rejoin, not yet, but re-enter the Single Market, accept Freedom of Movement again. Everyone around him is a Remainer, he is a Remainer, his friends and allies: they are all Remainers. They won’t be able to resist moving closer to the EU. They might be able to sell it as making life easier for traders and exporters, etc etc

    And that way lies much trouble
    Brexit was a manifesto of madness. A policy designed for gullible fools. The only thing worse would now be to try and reverse it. It isn't going to happen. If that is the only straw that The Clown has to cling to then Labour will win a majority.
    I’m not talking about Rejoin. I’m talking about an EFTA/EEA arrangement, solving a lot of the ongoing Brexit problems

    And, by the by, regaining Freedom of Movement

    This will be intensely seductive for Keir “2nd vote” Starmer, and 95% of his allies and supporters
    Paradoxically I think a deal for reciprocal free movement (that any future government could amend) would be less politically toxic than regulatory alignment by stealth.
    But we have full regulatory alignment. And as Rees-Mogg announced that to deviate would be "self-harm" that isn't going to change. Has anyone noticed? Does anyone care? Find me a normal who voted for Brexit because they wanted to end regulatory alignment. Or knew what that even was. They wanted an end to Brussels telling us we couldn't sell straight bananas. They know have that as no such ban existed anyway.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,386
    We've just had the most almighty cloudburst here. Literally couldn't here the music I'm playing.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MISTY said:

    Leon said:

    As the Labour lead has increased since Rishi Sunak gave everyone £9,000, a bag of second hand salt, and a tiny inflatable plastic wildebeest, one has to wonder what would have happened if he had NOT been so generous. Would the Labour lead be 20 points plus? Or have the voters just banked the money and decided, Well, the Tories are mad spaffing socialists, I might as well support Labour - ie, would the Tories be doing better if they were meaner and more Tory?

    It is certainly possible

    When in power, labour can be relied on to be labour.

    The tories, by their actions over the last two and half years, cannot be relied to on be anything. From the moment they adopted the Chinese Communist Party policy of lockdown, on top of the Maoist arbitrary hard target of Net Zero by 2050 At All Costs, they were finished.

    And I think they are finished. Not just now, and not just for a generation. For ever.

    How could they ever sell themselves to the electorate as anything again? It would be like Hal the computer in A Space Odyssey telling Dave he was alright now.

    I'm feeling much better now voters. I favour low taxation. I favour personal responsibility. I want a small state and fiscal discipline. I want law and order. Mr sThatcher is my heroine. All as the voters shut the whole thing down.

    A new party/brand on the right will have to replace them.

    The Tories are indeed in deep shit, but both sides have tremendous problems

    Here is just one for Labour. Brexit

    If the polls continue fair for Starmer, and the Tories keep smashing themselves in the face with a shovel, he could actually win a majority. What would he do with that majority? Suddenly he has all the reins of power, he doesn’t have to rely on the Nats or the Libs.

    In that case I think he would come under intense pressure to reverse Brexit in some form. Not immediately rejoin, not yet, but re-enter the Single Market, accept Freedom of Movement again. Everyone around him is a Remainer, he is a Remainer, his friends and allies: they are all Remainers. They won’t be able to resist moving closer to the EU. They might be able to sell it as making life easier for traders and exporters, etc etc

    And that way lies much trouble
    Brexit was a manifesto of madness. A policy designed for gullible fools. The only thing worse would now be to try and reverse it. It isn't going to happen. If that is the only straw that The Clown has to cling to then Labour will win a majority.
    I’m not talking about Rejoin. I’m talking about an EFTA/EEA arrangement, solving a lot of the ongoing Brexit problems

    And, by the by, regaining Freedom of Movement

    This will be intensely seductive for Keir “2nd vote” Starmer, and 95% of his allies and supporters
    Heaven forfend that Keir Starmer do something that would "solve a lot of problems".

    It will lead to electoral DOOM, I tell you.
    Even this would lead to reigniting the foulness of 2017 to 2019 but even more pronounced. There is no way Starmer would be able to sell it to all those that voted in droves to 'get Brexit done' nor contain their rage at what would be seen as an undoing (without even a referendum). Would be socially disastrous.
    Nah, it won't.

    It will be a thousand incremental little movements towards EEA/EFTA. Starmer is not going to stand up in the HoC and say "We are signing a new accord with the EU which restores our former status."

    It will be two lines in a repeatedly-iterated treaty towards solving the Northern Ireland issues. It will be an MoU for (insert UK agency of some sort) to work more closely with (insert EU agency of some sort). And so on, a thousand times.

    Occasionally a Tory backbencher or an unreconstructed DUP Paisleyite will stand up during the third reading of the Agricultural Concordance Bill (2025) and fulminate about where all this is going. Giles Fraser will write something self-righteous in Unherd. We will have a few in vino veritas moments with Leon and we love him for it.

    But that will be it. Little by little, we will get back to something akin to our 1990s EU membership.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,059
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MISTY said:

    Leon said:

    As the Labour lead has increased since Rishi Sunak gave everyone £9,000, a bag of second hand salt, and a tiny inflatable plastic wildebeest, one has to wonder what would have happened if he had NOT been so generous. Would the Labour lead be 20 points plus? Or have the voters just banked the money and decided, Well, the Tories are mad spaffing socialists, I might as well support Labour - ie, would the Tories be doing better if they were meaner and more Tory?

    It is certainly possible

    When in power, labour can be relied on to be labour.

    The tories, by their actions over the last two and half years, cannot be relied to on be anything. From the moment they adopted the Chinese Communist Party policy of lockdown, on top of the Maoist arbitrary hard target of Net Zero by 2050 At All Costs, they were finished.

    And I think they are finished. Not just now, and not just for a generation. For ever.

    How could they ever sell themselves to the electorate as anything again? It would be like Hal the computer in A Space Odyssey telling Dave he was alright now.

    I'm feeling much better now voters. I favour low taxation. I favour personal responsibility. I want a small state and fiscal discipline. I want law and order. Mr sThatcher is my heroine. All as the voters shut the whole thing down.

    A new party/brand on the right will have to replace them.

    The Tories are indeed in deep shit, but both sides have tremendous problems

    Here is just one for Labour. Brexit

    If the polls continue fair for Starmer, and the Tories keep smashing themselves in the face with a shovel, he could actually win a majority. What would he do with that majority? Suddenly he has all the reins of power, he doesn’t have to rely on the Nats or the Libs.

    In that case I think he would come under intense pressure to reverse Brexit in some form. Not immediately rejoin, not yet, but re-enter the Single Market, accept Freedom of Movement again. Everyone around him is a Remainer, he is a Remainer, his friends and allies: they are all Remainers. They won’t be able to resist moving closer to the EU. They might be able to sell it as making life easier for traders and exporters, etc etc

    And that way lies much trouble
    Brexit was a manifesto of madness. A policy designed for gullible fools. The only thing worse would now be to try and reverse it. It isn't going to happen. If that is the only straw that The Clown has to cling to then Labour will win a majority.
    I’m not talking about Rejoin. I’m talking about an EFTA/EEA arrangement, solving a lot of the ongoing Brexit problems

    And, by the by, regaining Freedom of Movement

    This will be intensely seductive for Keir “2nd vote” Starmer, and 95% of his allies and supporters
    Sounds ideal. I'd be happy with that. Probably inevitable so I would stop worrying about it.
    I’m not “worrying”. I’m sitting on my ridiculously ramshackle new Tbilisi terrace staring across the old town at Shameba cathedral sipping cold white Georgian wine as I listen to the small children argue in Ossetian just below me

    It’s brilliant.




    I too would be OK with Freedom of Movement restored. But many won’t be. Yet that is the direction PM Starmer will want to go, emotionally
    How do you know the children are speaking Ossetian? (Ossetian, or Ossetic, is fairly close to Pashto.)
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,219
    dixiedean said:

    Has this been reported

    John Stevenson becomes letter number 28

    Yes. It's gathering. It can't be far off now. The PM is vindictive. I would think twice about publicly confirming it.
    Rule by fear only works as long as people have reason to fear you. See that Ceaușescu speech just before Christmas 1989.
This discussion has been closed.