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Something to ponder – politicalbetting.com

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 30,018

    Have just come up with solution to Wales economic development challenge.

    Relocate Disney World and Disney international HQ to the Province from the Sunshine State.

    Ordinarily this would NOT be within human ken HOWEVER thanks to strange outbreak of head-up-ass disease in Tallahassee, the Welsh have opportunity to take advantage of the Republican Party's War on Woke in general, and the De Santis-Disney conflict in particular.

    Anyway, isn't Daffy really Welsh? Even though his Uncle Scrooge is obviously Scottish. However, Goofy is another Taffy, right? Of course, Mickey is quintessentially Hibernian - but at least he's musical.

    Bunch of Eden Project style domes - why not?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,454
    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    GaryL said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    So it's obvious that Scottish football is far inferior to English. The question is, why?

    It depends on what you want out of your football team. Trophies are clearly important to fans, but not the only reason to support. Teams up and down the Leagues get people paying to watch teams that never win anything, apart from ocassional division trophies, and often not many of those. It is intrinsic to the structure of both Leagues and Cups that most teams have virtually empty trophy cabinets.

    It is possible to devise a system for a League with perpetual turnover at the top. The American Football Leagues do this via a draft system, so the bottom teams get preference for the players coming up from the College system. The equivalent here would be Norwich not being relegated and having both the money and right to buy in Haarland. Interesting maybe, but is it what we want?
    That's what the Super League scummers wanted, but just for the Euroelite.
    Ironically the nfl is much more socialist than premier league Honestly can't understand the mentality of a 60 year old man supporting a team like Carlisle united
    Round here men aged between about 60 and about 120+ form the backbone of Carlisle United support base. As an Arsenal supporter in exile we have a good deal in common. Arsenal win all the games except those that actually matter, and Carlisle lose all the games including all those that actually matter, punctuated by a random sequence of away wins mid season that permits them to come about 20th.

    Youngsters can be quite fanatical too. One of the big pitch invasions last week was at Port Vale.
    Including violence against Swindon players, mainly Harry Mckirdy who left Vale after not really clicking.
    I understand the exuberance but I fear someone may get seriously hurt soon.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 104,916

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    By the way, if NZ is any guide, any move to PR will lead to various breakaway attempts by assorted gadflies and nutters, and a certain period of instability.

    Over time though we could expect there to be five main parties represented (and assorted nationalists), to wit: Con, Lab, LD, Green and Reform.

    Lab would alternate between Lab/Green and Lab/LD coalitions.

    Con would alternate between Con/Ref and Con/LD coalitions.

    One confounding factor is the SNP and their ability to hold Westminster to random for repeated Indy refs. This needs to be sorted one way or another before PR can really be “safe”.

    You can make exactly the same argument about the LDs or indeed any other third//fourth party. I'm sure the LDs will seek to reverse Brexit and have another referendum, for instance, and as for Ref .... So that argument is moot - it's part and parcel of such a voting system.
    The difference is, third parties in most polities don’t seek to dissolve the actual state.

    It would be daft for Westminster to put itself in a position which strengthened those who literally wish its end.
    You're confusing anarchists and autonomists.
    No, I’m not.

    I simply note that the SNP’s chief policy is to break up the UK.

    If you are “the UK”, you’d want to avoid that.
    That's to split the state - not dissolve it. Dissolve the union of 1707, yes. But that's a different thing.
    Ignorance is breathtaking.
    I didn't know you and I were total anarchists, not to mention subversives.*

    *NB. This is a sarcastic reply, for the benefit of anyone who doesn't know the difference between an independista and an anarcista.
    I’m afraid you’re talking garbage.

    Scottish independence means the end of the UK. Continue to make the case for independence, if you like, but don’t pretend that’s not the case.
    That's an intensely Britnat attitude, or could be taken as one - that the state is the borders of 1707, sorry 1800, sorry 1922, sorry 1956 ...

    Also, I don't recall (genuinely) if you were here for 2014 and the run up, but the Unionist attitude was emphatically that the UK would continue even if Scotland was independent.
    It was indeed.

    ‘How dare you Nats suggest that the UK would not continue? The departure of you oat munching benefit junkies would be but a flesh wound.’
    As this government will continue to refuse an indyref2 it is not an issue anyway
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,565

    Mitt Romney on Putin's nukes:



    We Must Prepare for Putin’s Worst Weapons

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/21/opinion/putin-nuclear-weapons.html

    Lucid and direct from Romney. He would be a much better POTUS than Biden or Trump
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,476

    Foxy said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    "Interesting" proposals for second homes in Wales.

    Council tax will up to 400% of the base level, and you can't register it as a business to avoid it unless it is available for guests 252 days a year, and actually occupied by paying guests for at least 182 days.

    That CT surcharge is around £5k extra where Councils implement it for a Band D house.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-61525903

    We discussed wrt England that such proposals would be easy to dodge.

    Will this work? Is 182 days occupancy common in Welsh holiday lets?

    £5k extra looks big enough to me to deter at least ordinary 2nd home owners. Not such how much £7k of Council Tax is on a standard Welsh holiday let turnover.

    They’re trying to distinguish between a genuine holiday let, and a second home that’s empty most of the time.
    Yes I know.

    The current threshold for occupancy to register it as a business is 70 days. Not sure what the availability criteria is.
    I'm not an expert but I would have thought the normal occupancy rate for a genuine holiday let in Wales would be more like 140 days. In which case this bill will be a right bastard for anyone trying to run a letting agency. Plus the cleaning businesses, accountants, any tourism related stuff.

    However, I wonder if they would make it applicable only to those people who don't live in Wales. That would solve the problem for quite a lot of genuine holiday lets.
    So, general PB reaction across the piece seems to be "Hmmmm" rather than "Shock Horror!".

    That's really quite interesting.

    I can see there being a marginal effect on 'main dwelling' housing supply in Wales - perhaps 1% as a one-off - but no long term impact or noticeable impact on house prices, so there will be demands for more action within 2-3 years.
    The effect is presumably in various hotspots like Pembrokeshire.

    I think the 183 day rule is very onerous - presumably deliberately so - and will severely impair the “AirBnB” market.

    So if you want to stay in Wales on holiday, you are going to have much less accommodation choice; and owning a second home is going to be much less appealing, too.

    The impact SHOULD be suppressed housing prices in holiday hotspots, and therefore better affordability for locals. Perhaps fewer holiday “ghost towns”, too?

    As I say upthread, I cautiously welcome this although I wonder whether something more targeted would be more useful.
    There is a serious problem, especially with some of the pretty resorts on the coast (e.g., Aberdyfi, Abersoch, Solva, Tenby), with second home owners.

    However, many of the areas of rural Wales are depopulating (much like Vermont or New Hampshire). There are plenty of semi-derelict, falling down, houses in the Welsh countryside. Plenty of decaying big houses as well, the local Plas.

    People blame second-home owners for their sons and daughters moving away. But, in most of rural Wales, there are no jobs. So, people move away. So, there is depopulation and there are empty houses, falling to bits.

    It is very clear that the Welsh Government has no idea how to bring jobs to Wales. Indeed they have admitted it-- here is Lee Waters:

    https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/we-dont-know-what-were-16483471

    "For 20 years we’ve pretended we know what we’re doing on the economy – and the truth is we don’t really know what we’re doing on the economy. Nobody knows what they’re doing on the economy.

    “Everybody is making it up as we go along – and let’s just be honest about that. We’ve thrown all the orthodox tools we can think of at growing the economy in the conventional way, and we’ve achieved static GDP over 20 years." (Lee Waters, MS for Llanelli)

    Without providing jobs in the areas, they will continue to depopulate and there will be empty houses.

    If they can't be sold to outsiders, then they will fall down.

    Drakeford's proposals look to me to be a very blunt tool to tackle the problem of second home ownership.

    The depopulation is not mainly due to second home ownership -- but I certainly agree there are big problems in some of the prettiest places and in the National Parks in which locals are priced out.

    It will be interesting to see what happens.

    But, 182 days occupancy looks really brutal -- I think it will kill some businesses.
    It is actually quite hard to create good well paid jobs. You need to have productive innovative firms with ready access to customers. That's not easy to do, especially in geographically peripheral places like Wales (or indeed most of the UK outside of the South East). Governments can't just magic these jobs into existence. They can help by investing in infrastructure and skills, creating a business friendly environment and ensuring ready access to markets and customers. Unfortunately the government here is shit at most of that, especially with their Brexit shit fest.
    I only partly agree.

    West Wales has 4 Universities (Aberystwyth, Bangor, Lampeter or UTSD, Swansea).

    They should be funding research expertise in these Universities that can spin off into companies.

    I also think fast broadband is another thing the Welsh Government should invest in. As you hint at, it is perfectly possible to do a very well paid job from the middle of nowhere if the infrastructure is there.

    Instead, Llafur has bought the loss-making Cardiff Airport for a hugely inflated price and sunk money into Aston Martin.

    There is a 1960s feel to the Welsh Government's ideas on the economy. Not a 2020s feel.
    I wouldn’t disagree with any of this.
    The problem is that only three people live in West Wales.

    Grow Cardiff, and you effectively grow Wales.
    Cardiff is more remote than London for us in North Wales
    That’s not relevant to my point.

    Most of the Welsh population live in South East Wales, and any viable economic strategy for Wales needs to figure out how to promote the creation of high value add industries there.

    We also know that innovation and economic growth happens in cities, via agglomeration effects.

    There’s no reality in which Llandudno or Llandrindod Wells become the next “Silicon Valley”.
    North Wales is far closer to Liverpool and Manchester and Airbus is a hugely successful North Wales business

    Furthermore there are plans for a tidal barrier between Llandudno and Prestatyn and we have the 5th biggest windfarm in the word, which I am looking out on just now

    Indeed if you have ever flown on an airbus aircraft, its wings will have been made here in North Wales

    You really do not understand the disconnect between North Wales and Cardiff

    I do understand the disconnect, see my other post.

    It appears, however, that you don’t understand the economic geography of Wales as a whole.
    I know that under labour in Wales the NHS and education are in crisis, and we have a Welsh government that wants to tax the North Wales holiday industry and also gerrymander the voting system

    If you are expecting Welsh labour to develop high tecs industries then you are in for a long wait
    Substituted, it works equally for England:

    I know that under the Tories in England the NHS and education are in crisis, and we have a English government that wants to tax the holiday industry and also gerrymander the voting system

    If you are expecting the English Tories to develop high tecs industries then you are in for a long wait
    This weeks announcement for nuclear on Anglesey and Trawsfynydd together with improved train services in North Wales has obviously not registered
    I was corrected yesterday on here that Trawsfynydd mini nuke is a Drakeford white elephant.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 104,916
    Leon said:

    Mitt Romney on Putin's nukes:



    We Must Prepare for Putin’s Worst Weapons

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/21/opinion/putin-nuclear-weapons.html

    Lucid and direct from Romney. He would be a much better POTUS than Biden or Trump
    Probably the best President we never had of the 21st century. Certainly better than Gore, Kerry, McCain and Hillary Clinton
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 2,148
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    By the way, if NZ is any guide, any move to PR will lead to various breakaway attempts by assorted gadflies and nutters, and a certain period of instability.

    Over time though we could expect there to be five main parties represented (and assorted nationalists), to wit: Con, Lab, LD, Green and Reform.

    Lab would alternate between Lab/Green and Lab/LD coalitions.

    Con would alternate between Con/Ref and Con/LD coalitions.

    One confounding factor is the SNP and their ability to hold Westminster to random for repeated Indy refs. This needs to be sorted one way or another before PR can really be “safe”.

    You can make exactly the same argument about the LDs or indeed any other third//fourth party. I'm sure the LDs will seek to reverse Brexit and have another referendum, for instance, and as for Ref .... So that argument is moot - it's part and parcel of such a voting system.
    The difference is, third parties in most polities don’t seek to dissolve the actual state.

    It would be daft for Westminster to put itself in a position which strengthened those who literally wish its end.
    You're confusing anarchists and autonomists.
    No, I’m not.

    I simply note that the SNP’s chief policy is to break up the UK.

    If you are “the UK”, you’d want to avoid that.
    That's to split the state - not dissolve it. Dissolve the union of 1707, yes. But that's a different thing.
    Ignorance is breathtaking.
    I didn't know you and I were total anarchists, not to mention subversives.*

    *NB. This is a sarcastic reply, for the benefit of anyone who doesn't know the difference between an independista and an anarcista.
    I’m afraid you’re talking garbage.

    Scottish independence means the end of the UK. Continue to make the case for independence, if you like, but don’t pretend that’s not the case.
    That's an intensely Britnat attitude, or could be taken as one - that the state is the borders of 1707, sorry 1800, sorry 1922, sorry 1956 ...

    Also, I don't recall (genuinely) if you were here for 2014 and the run up, but the Unionist attitude was emphatically that the UK would continue even if Scotland was independent.
    It was indeed.

    ‘How dare you Nats suggest that the UK would not continue? The departure of you oat munching benefit junkies would be but a flesh wound.’
    As this government will continue to refuse an indyref2 it is not an issue anyway
    They won’t need to for as long as Sturgeon is in charge. When she gets her coveted UN job (in charge of world wokery or some such) she will be off, to be replaced by Angus Robertson, who won’t change anything.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,284
    Berlin, I am in you.
    Just roond the corner from where Marlene was born as it happens.

    https://youtu.be/Zq6vz8GHx-4

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 23,700
    On topic. Is the expectation that voting reform would happen without a referendum?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 6,547

    algarkirk said:

    carnforth said:

    From the Times. I assume it excludes restaurant spending.



    Bet we pay more for housing though….

    That figure is because, as I understand the media, everyone lives on gravel and the off scourings of Foodbanks. The 11% all goes on Haribos and lard.
    You have gravel?

    {picks up pry bar and rips the top off a case of Château de Chasselas.... uncorks a bottle}

    You lucky, lucky...
    Round here it's Domaine Leflaive Montrachet Grand Cru every day, or gravel but not both. Savings have to be made.

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    edited May 22
    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    carnforth said:

    From the Times. I assume it excludes restaurant spending.



    Bet we pay more for housing though….

    That figure is because, as I understand the media, everyone lives on gravel and the off scourings of Foodbanks. The 11% all goes on Haribos and lard.
    That table does correlate pretty well with the standard of domestic culinary experise. British people are eager consumers of easy to cook/eat junk. Just spy on peoples baskets at the supermarkets.
    Read that last sentence back to yourself, and have a think what it says about you.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 2,148

    ydoethur said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Re historic inflation, £1 worth the same in 1800 as 1914. Worth £122 in today's money

    Measuring Worth does not altogether agree with you. In fact, they suggest in real terms the pound in 1800 was worth less in real terms, due to deflationary pressures.



    Although it should be noted trying to measure relative value in a time of such extraordinarily rapid economic and social change is a very inexact science.
    Aye, time was, you could walk down to Beardmore, order 2 dreadnoughts for a pound. And get change.
    If only dreadnoughts could be built in Llandrindod Wells, the Mid Wales economy would be transformed!
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 6,547
    tlg86 said:

    On topic. Is the expectation that voting reform would happen without a referendum?

    My feeling is no. How the national parliament, therefore government, is formed is fundamental to the constitution. Referendum required. And of course there is now a precedent.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,917

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    As I prepare to take a nice looooong walk into the first really nice, sunny and reasonably-warm day so far in Seattle during this merry month of May, I'm thinking of my friend who left town one week ago, on his bicycle heading toward New York.

    As of last night he was halfway across Oregon, heading toward the Snake River Valley and the Grand Tetons. Yesterday he "only" covered 57 miles . . . but did over 5k feet in elevation. Large part was because he went up AND down then back up, but he's definitely on generally upward trajectory until he reaches the Continental Divide.

    Just pull out a map of the United States and see just what a trip from sea to shining sea truly entails.

    Some of the most illuminating books I ever read about US and Canadian history were about the transcontinental railroads. Like cyclists, they like the flat ... and the books gave such a sense of the great continent and its diversity.
    Pierre Berton's trilogy on financing, politicking, warring and finally building the Canadian Pacific is still a great classic. As also captured in this great Gordon Lightfoot song:

    Canadian Railroad Trilogy - Gordon Lightfoot
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiSFZBDAH9Y
    I read the Last Spike and the National Dream, yes! But was there a third? Have Imissed one??
    Just two, my bad.

    Stand fast Craigellachie! (But do NOT forget the Pacific Scandal - toot! toot!)

    Addendum - If you liked those Pierre Berton books, check out his on the Klondike Gold Rush
    Thank you. Duly ordered!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,453

    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    GaryL said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    So it's obvious that Scottish football is far inferior to English. The question is, why?

    It depends on what you want out of your football team. Trophies are clearly important to fans, but not the only reason to support. Teams up and down the Leagues get people paying to watch teams that never win anything, apart from ocassional division trophies, and often not many of those. It is intrinsic to the structure of both Leagues and Cups that most teams have virtually empty trophy cabinets.

    It is possible to devise a system for a League with perpetual turnover at the top. The American Football Leagues do this via a draft system, so the bottom teams get preference for the players coming up from the College system. The equivalent here would be Norwich not being relegated and having both the money and right to buy in Haarland. Interesting maybe, but is it what we want?
    That's what the Super League scummers wanted, but just for the Euroelite.
    Ironically the nfl is much more socialist than premier league Honestly can't understand the mentality of a 60 year old man supporting a team like Carlisle united
    Round here men aged between about 60 and about 120+ form the backbone of Carlisle United support base. As an Arsenal supporter in exile we have a good deal in common. Arsenal win all the games except those that actually matter, and Carlisle lose all the games including all those that actually matter, punctuated by a random sequence of away wins mid season that permits them to come about 20th.

    Youngsters can be quite fanatical too. One of the big pitch invasions last week was at Port Vale.
    Including violence against Swindon players, mainly Harry Mckirdy who left Vale after not really clicking.
    I understand the exuberance but I fear someone may get seriously hurt soon.
    Impeccable behaviour at the King Power today. Southampton fans were taunting Vardy "Jamie Vardy, your wife is a grass" and "Rooooney!". After he scored, Jamie taunted them back with his celebration from a respectful distance. Opposition fans never seem to realise that winding up Jamie just feeds his edge.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 17,631
    The LibDems want STV? Jesus wept.

    "A new dawn has broken, but we are still bloody counting!"
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,631

    ydoethur said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Re historic inflation, £1 worth the same in 1800 as 1914. Worth £122 in today's money

    Measuring Worth does not altogether agree with you. In fact, they suggest in real terms the pound in 1800 was worth less in real terms, due to deflationary pressures.



    Although it should be noted trying to measure relative value in a time of such extraordinarily rapid economic and social change is a very inexact science.
    Aye, time was, you could walk down to Beardmore, order 2 dreadnoughts for a pound. And get change.
    Since they were to prove worthless, you were still cheated.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 42,597

    Have just come up with solution to Wales economic development challenge.

    Relocate Disney World and Disney international HQ to the Province from the Sunshine State.

    Ordinarily this would NOT be within human ken HOWEVER thanks to strange outbreak of head-up-ass disease in Tallahassee, the Welsh have opportunity to take advantage of the Republican Party's War on Woke in general, and the De Santis-Disney conflict in particular.

    Anyway, isn't Daffy really Welsh? Even though his Uncle Scrooge is obviously Scottish. However, Goofy is another Taffy, right? Of course, Mickey is quintessentially Hibernian - but at least he's musical.

    DONALD! Not Daffy! Daffy is Warner Bros.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,453

    The LibDems want STV? Jesus wept.

    "A new dawn has broken, but we are still bloody counting!"

    A fair result is well worth the wait.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 104,916
    Sir Gavin Williamson lauded as a hero in Somaliland after championing the de facto state's independence

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sir-gavin-williamson-reborn-as-somaliland-independence-hero-2dhn5n50w
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,917
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    "Interesting" proposals for second homes in Wales.

    Council tax will up to 400% of the base level, and you can't register it as a business to avoid it unless it is available for guests 252 days a year, and actually occupied by paying guests for at least 182 days.

    That CT surcharge is around £5k extra where Councils implement it for a Band D house.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-61525903

    We discussed wrt England that such proposals would be easy to dodge.

    Will this work? Is 182 days occupancy common in Welsh holiday lets?

    £5k extra looks big enough to me to deter at least ordinary 2nd home owners. Not such how much £7k of Council Tax is on a standard Welsh holiday let turnover.

    They’re trying to distinguish between a genuine holiday let, and a second home that’s empty most of the time.
    Yes I know.

    The current threshold for occupancy to register it as a business is 70 days. Not sure what the availability criteria is.
    I'm not an expert but I would have thought the normal occupancy rate for a genuine holiday let in Wales would be more like 140 days. In which case this bill will be a right bastard for anyone trying to run a letting agency. Plus the cleaning businesses, accountants, any tourism related stuff.

    However, I wonder if they would make it applicable only to those people who don't live in Wales. That would solve the problem for quite a lot of genuine holiday lets.
    So, general PB reaction across the piece seems to be "Hmmmm" rather than "Shock Horror!".

    That's really quite interesting.

    I can see there being a marginal effect on 'main dwelling' housing supply in Wales - perhaps 1% as a one-off - but no long term impact or noticeable impact on house prices, so there will be demands for more action within 2-3 years.
    The effect is presumably in various hotspots like Pembrokeshire.

    I think the 183 day rule is very onerous - presumably deliberately so - and will severely impair the “AirBnB” market.

    So if you want to stay in Wales on holiday, you are going to have much less accommodation choice; and owning a second home is going to be much less appealing, too.

    The impact SHOULD be suppressed housing prices in holiday hotspots, and therefore better affordability for locals. Perhaps fewer holiday “ghost towns”, too?

    As I say upthread, I cautiously welcome this although I wonder whether something more targeted would be more useful.
    There is a serious problem, especially with some of the pretty resorts on the coast (e.g., Aberdyfi, Abersoch, Solva, Tenby), with second home owners.

    However, many of the areas of rural Wales are depopulating (much like Vermont or New Hampshire). There are plenty of semi-derelict, falling down, houses in the Welsh countryside. Plenty of decaying big houses as well, the local Plas.

    People blame second-home owners for their sons and daughters moving away. But, in most of rural Wales, there are no jobs. So, people move away. So, there is depopulation and there are empty houses, falling to bits.

    It is very clear that the Welsh Government has no idea how to bring jobs to Wales. Indeed they have admitted it-- here is Lee Waters:

    https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/we-dont-know-what-were-16483471

    "For 20 years we’ve pretended we know what we’re doing on the economy – and the truth is we don’t really know what we’re doing on the economy. Nobody knows what they’re doing on the economy.

    “Everybody is making it up as we go along – and let’s just be honest about that. We’ve thrown all the orthodox tools we can think of at growing the economy in the conventional way, and we’ve achieved static GDP over 20 years." (Lee Waters, MS for Llanelli)

    Without providing jobs in the areas, they will continue to depopulate and there will be empty houses.

    If they can't be sold to outsiders, then they will fall down.

    Drakeford's proposals look to me to be a very blunt tool to tackle the problem of second home ownership.

    The depopulation is not mainly due to second home ownership -- but I certainly agree there are big problems in some of the prettiest places and in the National Parks in which locals are priced out.

    It will be interesting to see what happens.

    But, 182 days occupancy looks really brutal -- I think it will kill some businesses.
    It is actually quite hard to create good well paid jobs. You need to have productive innovative firms with ready access to customers. That's not easy to do, especially in geographically peripheral places like Wales (or indeed most of the UK outside of the South East). Governments can't just magic these jobs into existence. They can help by investing in infrastructure and skills, creating a business friendly environment and ensuring ready access to markets and customers. Unfortunately the government here is shit at most of that, especially with their Brexit shit fest.
    I only partly agree.

    West Wales has 4 Universities (Aberystwyth, Bangor, Lampeter or UTSD, Swansea).

    They should be funding research expertise in these Universities that can spin off into companies.

    I also think fast broadband is another thing the Welsh Government should invest in. As you hint at, it is perfectly possible to do a very well paid job from the middle of nowhere if the infrastructure is there.

    Instead, Llafur has bought the loss-making Cardiff Airport for a hugely inflated price and sunk money into Aston Martin.

    There is a 1960s feel to the Welsh Government's ideas on the economy. Not a 2020s feel.
    I wouldn’t disagree with any of this.
    The problem is that only three people live in West Wales.

    Grow Cardiff, and you effectively grow Wales.
    Cardiff is more remote than London for us in North Wales
    That’s not relevant to my point.

    Most of the Welsh population live in South East Wales, and any viable economic strategy for Wales needs to figure out how to promote the creation of high value add industries there.

    We also know that innovation and economic growth happens in cities, via agglomeration effects.

    There’s no reality in which Llandudno or Llandrindod Wells become the next “Silicon Valley”.
    North Wales is far closer to Liverpool and Manchester and Airbus is a hugely successful North Wales business

    Furthermore there are plans for a tidal barrier between Llandudno and Prestatyn and we have the 5th biggest windfarm in the word, which I am looking out on just now

    Indeed if you have ever flown on an airbus aircraft, its wings will have been made here in North Wales

    You really do not understand the disconnect between North Wales and Cardiff

    I do understand the disconnect, see my other post.

    It appears, however, that you don’t understand the economic geography of Wales as a whole.
    I know that under labour in Wales the NHS and education are in crisis, and we have a Welsh government that wants to tax the North Wales holiday industry and also gerrymander the voting system

    If you are expecting Welsh labour to develop high tecs industries then you are in for a long wait
    Substituted, it works equally for England:

    I know that under the Tories in England the NHS and education are in crisis, and we have a English government that wants to tax the holiday industry and also gerrymander the voting system

    If you are expecting the English Tories to develop high tecs industries then you are in for a long wait
    This weeks announcement for nuclear on Anglesey and Trawsfynydd together with improved train services in North Wales has obviously not registered
    Yeah, Johnson always makes lots of promises. Believe it when it actually happens.
    And the reactors don't exist yet. Always a red flag.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,917
    edited May 22
    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    carnforth said:

    From the Times. I assume it excludes restaurant spending.



    Bet we pay more for housing though….

    That figure is because, as I understand the media, everyone lives on gravel and the off scourings of Foodbanks. The 11% all goes on Haribos and lard.
    That table does correlate pretty well with the standard of domestic culinary experise. British people are eager consumers of easy to cook/eat junk. Just spy on peoples baskets at the supermarkets.
    Read that last sentence back to yourself, and have a think what it says about you.
    He is a specialist in diabetes. Of course he ****ing looks at supermarket baskets when he's waiting in the queue. I do too, out oif curiosity and nothing else to do. And I've got no dog in the struggle against diabetes, professionally.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,917

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    By the way, if NZ is any guide, any move to PR will lead to various breakaway attempts by assorted gadflies and nutters, and a certain period of instability.

    Over time though we could expect there to be five main parties represented (and assorted nationalists), to wit: Con, Lab, LD, Green and Reform.

    Lab would alternate between Lab/Green and Lab/LD coalitions.

    Con would alternate between Con/Ref and Con/LD coalitions.

    One confounding factor is the SNP and their ability to hold Westminster to random for repeated Indy refs. This needs to be sorted one way or another before PR can really be “safe”.

    You can make exactly the same argument about the LDs or indeed any other third//fourth party. I'm sure the LDs will seek to reverse Brexit and have another referendum, for instance, and as for Ref .... So that argument is moot - it's part and parcel of such a voting system.
    The difference is, third parties in most polities don’t seek to dissolve the actual state.

    It would be daft for Westminster to put itself in a position which strengthened those who literally wish its end.
    You're confusing anarchists and autonomists.
    No, I’m not.

    I simply note that the SNP’s chief policy is to break up the UK.

    If you are “the UK”, you’d want to avoid that.
    That's to split the state - not dissolve it. Dissolve the union of 1707, yes. But that's a different thing.
    Ignorance is breathtaking.
    I didn't know you and I were total anarchists, not to mention subversives.*

    *NB. This is a sarcastic reply, for the benefit of anyone who doesn't know the difference between an independista and an anarcista.
    I’m afraid you’re talking garbage.

    Scottish independence means the end of the UK. Continue to make the case for independence, if you like, but don’t pretend that’s not the case.
    That's an intensely Britnat attitude, or could be taken as one - that the state is the borders of 1707, sorry 1800, sorry 1922, sorry 1956 ...

    Also, I don't recall (genuinely) if you were here for 2014 and the run up, but the Unionist attitude was emphatically that the UK would continue even if Scotland was independent.
    It was indeed.

    ‘How dare you Nats suggest that the UK would not continue? The departure of you oat munching benefit junkies would be but a flesh wound.’
    Indeed. Gardenwalker is at serious risk of becoming an unperson. I did try to warn him ...
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,454
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    GaryL said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    So it's obvious that Scottish football is far inferior to English. The question is, why?

    It depends on what you want out of your football team. Trophies are clearly important to fans, but not the only reason to support. Teams up and down the Leagues get people paying to watch teams that never win anything, apart from ocassional division trophies, and often not many of those. It is intrinsic to the structure of both Leagues and Cups that most teams have virtually empty trophy cabinets.

    It is possible to devise a system for a League with perpetual turnover at the top. The American Football Leagues do this via a draft system, so the bottom teams get preference for the players coming up from the College system. The equivalent here would be Norwich not being relegated and having both the money and right to buy in Haarland. Interesting maybe, but is it what we want?
    That's what the Super League scummers wanted, but just for the Euroelite.
    Ironically the nfl is much more socialist than premier league Honestly can't understand the mentality of a 60 year old man supporting a team like Carlisle united
    Round here men aged between about 60 and about 120+ form the backbone of Carlisle United support base. As an Arsenal supporter in exile we have a good deal in common. Arsenal win all the games except those that actually matter, and Carlisle lose all the games including all those that actually matter, punctuated by a random sequence of away wins mid season that permits them to come about 20th.

    Youngsters can be quite fanatical too. One of the big pitch invasions last week was at Port Vale.
    Including violence against Swindon players, mainly Harry Mckirdy who left Vale after not really clicking.
    I understand the exuberance but I fear someone may get seriously hurt soon.
    Impeccable behaviour at the King Power today. Southampton fans were taunting Vardy "Jamie Vardy, your wife is a grass" and "Rooooney!". After he scored, Jamie taunted them back with his celebration from a respectful distance. Opposition fans never seem to realise that winding up Jamie just feeds his edge.
    Mckirdy said that he expects dogs abuse from the stands and that’s part of the game, but he should be able to go to his place of work and not be physicallly attacked.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 23,700
    algarkirk said:

    tlg86 said:

    On topic. Is the expectation that voting reform would happen without a referendum?

    My feeling is no. How the national parliament, therefore government, is formed is fundamental to the constitution. Referendum required. And of course there is now a precedent.
    And we know how supportive Labour MPs were for the abolition of first past the post the last time the question was put to the people.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,917

    ydoethur said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Re historic inflation, £1 worth the same in 1800 as 1914. Worth £122 in today's money

    Measuring Worth does not altogether agree with you. In fact, they suggest in real terms the pound in 1800 was worth less in real terms, due to deflationary pressures.



    Although it should be noted trying to measure relative value in a time of such extraordinarily rapid economic and social change is a very inexact science.
    Aye, time was, you could walk down to Beardmore, order 2 dreadnoughts for a pound. And get change.
    If only dreadnoughts could be built in Llandrindod Wells, the Mid Wales economy would be transformed!
    Maybe a bit less change if you got one of those at the same time:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5TUpaxw4ME
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 16,537
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    By the way, if NZ is any guide, any move to PR will lead to various breakaway attempts by assorted gadflies and nutters, and a certain period of instability.

    Over time though we could expect there to be five main parties represented (and assorted nationalists), to wit: Con, Lab, LD, Green and Reform.

    Lab would alternate between Lab/Green and Lab/LD coalitions.

    Con would alternate between Con/Ref and Con/LD coalitions.

    One confounding factor is the SNP and their ability to hold Westminster to random for repeated Indy refs. This needs to be sorted one way or another before PR can really be “safe”.

    You can make exactly the same argument about the LDs or indeed any other third//fourth party. I'm sure the LDs will seek to reverse Brexit and have another referendum, for instance, and as for Ref .... So that argument is moot - it's part and parcel of such a voting system.
    The difference is, third parties in most polities don’t seek to dissolve the actual state.

    It would be daft for Westminster to put itself in a position which strengthened those who literally wish its end.
    You're confusing anarchists and autonomists.
    No, I’m not.

    I simply note that the SNP’s chief policy is to break up the UK.

    If you are “the UK”, you’d want to avoid that.
    That's to split the state - not dissolve it. Dissolve the union of 1707, yes. But that's a different thing.
    Ignorance is breathtaking.
    I didn't know you and I were total anarchists, not to mention subversives.*

    *NB. This is a sarcastic reply, for the benefit of anyone who doesn't know the difference between an independista and an anarcista.
    I’m afraid you’re talking garbage.

    Scottish independence means the end of the UK. Continue to make the case for independence, if you like, but don’t pretend that’s not the case.
    That's an intensely Britnat attitude, or could be taken as one - that the state is the borders of 1707, sorry 1800, sorry 1922, sorry 1956 ...

    Also, I don't recall (genuinely) if you were here for 2014 and the run up, but the Unionist attitude was emphatically that the UK would continue even if Scotland was independent.
    It was indeed.

    ‘How dare you Nats suggest that the UK would not continue? The departure of you oat munching benefit junkies would be but a flesh wound.’
    Indeed. Gardenwalker is at serious risk of becoming an unperson. I did try to warn him ...
    I am very surprised by how touchy the Scottish Nationalists are.

    If I wasn’t persuaded by Scottish independence before, I’m even less so now.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673

    The LibDems want STV? Jesus wept.

    "A new dawn has broken, but we are still bloody counting!"

    I think the left is making a mistake with PR. Before the referendum UKIP + Tories were often >52%. That would mean a much further right government.
  • GaryLGaryL Posts: 131
    IshmaelZ said:

    GaryL said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    So it's obvious that Scottish football is far inferior to English. The question is, why?

    It depends on what you want out of your football team. Trophies are clearly important to fans, but not the only reason to support. Teams up and down the Leagues get people paying to watch teams that never win anything, apart from ocassional division trophies, and often not many of those. It is intrinsic to the structure of both Leagues and Cups that most teams have virtually empty trophy cabinets.

    It is possible to devise a system for a League with perpetual turnover at the top. The American Football Leagues do this via a draft system, so the bottom teams get preference for the players coming up from the College system. The equivalent here would be Norwich not being relegated and having both the money and right to buy in Haarland. Interesting maybe, but is it what we want?
    That's what the Super League scummers wanted, but just for the Euroelite.
    Ironically the nfl is much more socialist than premier league Honestly can't understand the mentality of a 60 year old man supporting a team like Carlisle united
    What? I mean, big picture-wise the appropriate advice to any adult who claims to support a football team is Get a life, but how do age, sex and Carlisle come in to it?
    Just an example of an older man pointlessly wasting their time on a lost cause
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    GaryL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    GaryL said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    So it's obvious that Scottish football is far inferior to English. The question is, why?

    It depends on what you want out of your football team. Trophies are clearly important to fans, but not the only reason to support. Teams up and down the Leagues get people paying to watch teams that never win anything, apart from ocassional division trophies, and often not many of those. It is intrinsic to the structure of both Leagues and Cups that most teams have virtually empty trophy cabinets.

    It is possible to devise a system for a League with perpetual turnover at the top. The American Football Leagues do this via a draft system, so the bottom teams get preference for the players coming up from the College system. The equivalent here would be Norwich not being relegated and having both the money and right to buy in Haarland. Interesting maybe, but is it what we want?
    That's what the Super League scummers wanted, but just for the Euroelite.
    Ironically the nfl is much more socialist than premier league Honestly can't understand the mentality of a 60 year old man supporting a team like Carlisle united
    What? I mean, big picture-wise the appropriate advice to any adult who claims to support a football team is Get a life, but how do age, sex and Carlisle come in to it?
    Just an example of an older man pointlessly wasting their time on a lost cause
    Like those sad tossers still backing Putin-style ethnonationalist kleptocracy. Western democracy is the future.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,565
    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    carnforth said:

    From the Times. I assume it excludes restaurant spending.



    Bet we pay more for housing though….

    That figure is because, as I understand the media, everyone lives on gravel and the off scourings of Foodbanks. The 11% all goes on Haribos and lard.
    That table does correlate pretty well with the standard of domestic culinary experise. British people are eager consumers of easy to cook/eat junk. Just spy on peoples baskets at the supermarkets.
    Read that last sentence back to yourself, and have a think what it says about you.
    He is a specialist in diabetes. Of course he ****ing looks at supermarket baskets when he's waiting in the queue. I do too, out oif curiosity and nothing else to do. And I've got no dog in the struggle against diabetes, professionally.
    The asterisks give the unfortunate impression that Dr @Foxy is WANKING into supermarket baskets
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,453

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    GaryL said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    So it's obvious that Scottish football is far inferior to English. The question is, why?

    It depends on what you want out of your football team. Trophies are clearly important to fans, but not the only reason to support. Teams up and down the Leagues get people paying to watch teams that never win anything, apart from ocassional division trophies, and often not many of those. It is intrinsic to the structure of both Leagues and Cups that most teams have virtually empty trophy cabinets.

    It is possible to devise a system for a League with perpetual turnover at the top. The American Football Leagues do this via a draft system, so the bottom teams get preference for the players coming up from the College system. The equivalent here would be Norwich not being relegated and having both the money and right to buy in Haarland. Interesting maybe, but is it what we want?
    That's what the Super League scummers wanted, but just for the Euroelite.
    Ironically the nfl is much more socialist than premier league Honestly can't understand the mentality of a 60 year old man supporting a team like Carlisle united
    Round here men aged between about 60 and about 120+ form the backbone of Carlisle United support base. As an Arsenal supporter in exile we have a good deal in common. Arsenal win all the games except those that actually matter, and Carlisle lose all the games including all those that actually matter, punctuated by a random sequence of away wins mid season that permits them to come about 20th.

    Youngsters can be quite fanatical too. One of the big pitch invasions last week was at Port Vale.
    Including violence against Swindon players, mainly Harry Mckirdy who left Vale after not really clicking.
    I understand the exuberance but I fear someone may get seriously hurt soon.
    Impeccable behaviour at the King Power today. Southampton fans were taunting Vardy "Jamie Vardy, your wife is a grass" and "Rooooney!". After he scored, Jamie taunted them back with his celebration from a respectful distance. Opposition fans never seem to realise that winding up Jamie just feeds his edge.
    Mckirdy said that he expects dogs abuse from the stands and that’s part of the game, but he should be able to go to his place of work and not be physicallly attacked.
    I agree. Taunting opposition players is part of the pantomime of live football, physical threats are not acceptable.
  • GaryLGaryL Posts: 131

    GaryL said:

    GaryL said:

    carnforth said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:



    You literally have no passport? You NEVER travel abroad? Really?

    17% of people don't. (In the US, it's 60%!) It's one of those things that people who have them can't imagine not having, like a TV or a bicycle, but which many people don't feel they need/ (I have a passport, but not a TV or a bike...)
    To be fair to Americans, they have a lot more geography. When your country is that big it fulfils many of the reasons Brits go abroad (i.e. for sun, or snow).

    And when they want a tropical holiday they go to Hawaii
    In addition, some of the caribbean islands do not require a passport for flights from the US.
    Neither does Mexico ,, this stuff about people in the USA being uninterested in world because don't have passport is rubbish, majority of people in UK only go abroad for weather not the culture
    Speaking for my wife and myself who have been round the world many times, visiting all the bucket shop locations, including Antarctica your comment is not supported by all the fellow travellers we have met on these journeys who have travelled not just to broaden their horizons but enjoy the culture of the places visited, and yes we have even been in the Kremlin
    Yes but people like you are the minority Most people jus want that week of sun in benidorm
    Even Benidorm has culture

    Most every holidaymaker will take in the culture of the places they visit wherever they are
    Lol you are on a windup average uk holidaymaker just wants cheap booze and English food,,,
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,917

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    By the way, if NZ is any guide, any move to PR will lead to various breakaway attempts by assorted gadflies and nutters, and a certain period of instability.

    Over time though we could expect there to be five main parties represented (and assorted nationalists), to wit: Con, Lab, LD, Green and Reform.

    Lab would alternate between Lab/Green and Lab/LD coalitions.

    Con would alternate between Con/Ref and Con/LD coalitions.

    One confounding factor is the SNP and their ability to hold Westminster to random for repeated Indy refs. This needs to be sorted one way or another before PR can really be “safe”.

    You can make exactly the same argument about the LDs or indeed any other third//fourth party. I'm sure the LDs will seek to reverse Brexit and have another referendum, for instance, and as for Ref .... So that argument is moot - it's part and parcel of such a voting system.
    The difference is, third parties in most polities don’t seek to dissolve the actual state.

    It would be daft for Westminster to put itself in a position which strengthened those who literally wish its end.
    You're confusing anarchists and autonomists.
    No, I’m not.

    I simply note that the SNP’s chief policy is to break up the UK.

    If you are “the UK”, you’d want to avoid that.
    That's to split the state - not dissolve it. Dissolve the union of 1707, yes. But that's a different thing.
    Ignorance is breathtaking.
    I didn't know you and I were total anarchists, not to mention subversives.*

    *NB. This is a sarcastic reply, for the benefit of anyone who doesn't know the difference between an independista and an anarcista.
    I’m afraid you’re talking garbage.

    Scottish independence means the end of the UK. Continue to make the case for independence, if you like, but don’t pretend that’s not the case.
    That's an intensely Britnat attitude, or could be taken as one - that the state is the borders of 1707, sorry 1800, sorry 1922, sorry 1956 ...

    Also, I don't recall (genuinely) if you were here for 2014 and the run up, but the Unionist attitude was emphatically that the UK would continue even if Scotland was independent.
    It was indeed.

    ‘How dare you Nats suggest that the UK would not continue? The departure of you oat munching benefit junkies would be but a flesh wound.’
    Indeed. Gardenwalker is at serious risk of becoming an unperson. I did try to warn him ...
    I am very surprised by how touchy the Scottish Nationalists are.

    If I wasn’t persuaded by Scottish independence before, I’m even less so now.
    You're missing the point - it was the Britnats who were amazingly touchy about the UK not continuing. It's so unusual to find anyone remotely critical of the indy movement who doesn't at once latch onto the idea that the UK will always continue.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 7,640
    edited May 22
    Aslan said:

    The LibDems want STV? Jesus wept.

    "A new dawn has broken, but we are still bloody counting!"

    I think the left is making a mistake with PR. Before the referendum UKIP + Tories were often >52%. That would mean a much further right government.
    Maybe some people on the "left" want to see fair representation even if it's not the government they want.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,917
    edited May 22
    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    carnforth said:

    From the Times. I assume it excludes restaurant spending.



    Bet we pay more for housing though….

    That figure is because, as I understand the media, everyone lives on gravel and the off scourings of Foodbanks. The 11% all goes on Haribos and lard.
    That table does correlate pretty well with the standard of domestic culinary experise. British people are eager consumers of easy to cook/eat junk. Just spy on peoples baskets at the supermarkets.
    Read that last sentence back to yourself, and have a think what it says about you.
    He is a specialist in diabetes. Of course he ****ing looks at supermarket baskets when he's waiting in the queue. I do too, out oif curiosity and nothing else to do. And I've got no dog in the struggle against diabetes, professionally.
    The asterisks give the unfortunate impression that Dr @Foxy is WANKING into supermarket baskets
    Not consistent with the grammar and parsing, alas. But an intriguing concept and a revelation of the imaginative scope of your intellect.

    TBF: I did once see someone indulging in that activity, but in a bookshop. Decidedly jarring.
  • GaryLGaryL Posts: 131
    Aslan said:

    GaryL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    GaryL said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    So it's obvious that Scottish football is far inferior to English. The question is, why?

    It depends on what you want out of your football team. Trophies are clearly important to fans, but not the only reason to support. Teams up and down the Leagues get people paying to watch teams that never win anything, apart from ocassional division trophies, and often not many of those. It is intrinsic to the structure of both Leagues and Cups that most teams have virtually empty trophy cabinets.

    It is possible to devise a system for a League with perpetual turnover at the top. The American Football Leagues do this via a draft system, so the bottom teams get preference for the players coming up from the College system. The equivalent here would be Norwich not being relegated and having both the money and right to buy in Haarland. Interesting maybe, but is it what we want?
    That's what the Super League scummers wanted, but just for the Euroelite.
    Ironically the nfl is much more socialist than premier league Honestly can't understand the mentality of a 60 year old man supporting a team like Carlisle united
    What? I mean, big picture-wise the appropriate advice to any adult who claims to support a football team is Get a life, but how do age, sex and Carlisle come in to it?
    Just an example of an older man pointlessly wasting their time on a lost cause
    Like those sad tossers still backing Putin-style ethnonationalist kleptocracy. Western democracy is the future.
    Why are you obsessed with putin,, does he threaten your manhood with his macho ways,,
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 16,537
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    By the way, if NZ is any guide, any move to PR will lead to various breakaway attempts by assorted gadflies and nutters, and a certain period of instability.

    Over time though we could expect there to be five main parties represented (and assorted nationalists), to wit: Con, Lab, LD, Green and Reform.

    Lab would alternate between Lab/Green and Lab/LD coalitions.

    Con would alternate between Con/Ref and Con/LD coalitions.

    One confounding factor is the SNP and their ability to hold Westminster to random for repeated Indy refs. This needs to be sorted one way or another before PR can really be “safe”.

    You can make exactly the same argument about the LDs or indeed any other third//fourth party. I'm sure the LDs will seek to reverse Brexit and have another referendum, for instance, and as for Ref .... So that argument is moot - it's part and parcel of such a voting system.
    The difference is, third parties in most polities don’t seek to dissolve the actual state.

    It would be daft for Westminster to put itself in a position which strengthened those who literally wish its end.
    You're confusing anarchists and autonomists.
    No, I’m not.

    I simply note that the SNP’s chief policy is to break up the UK.

    If you are “the UK”, you’d want to avoid that.
    That's to split the state - not dissolve it. Dissolve the union of 1707, yes. But that's a different thing.
    Ignorance is breathtaking.
    I didn't know you and I were total anarchists, not to mention subversives.*

    *NB. This is a sarcastic reply, for the benefit of anyone who doesn't know the difference between an independista and an anarcista.
    I’m afraid you’re talking garbage.

    Scottish independence means the end of the UK. Continue to make the case for independence, if you like, but don’t pretend that’s not the case.
    That's an intensely Britnat attitude, or could be taken as one - that the state is the borders of 1707, sorry 1800, sorry 1922, sorry 1956 ...

    Also, I don't recall (genuinely) if you were here for 2014 and the run up, but the Unionist attitude was emphatically that the UK would continue even if Scotland was independent.
    It was indeed.

    ‘How dare you Nats suggest that the UK would not continue? The departure of you oat munching benefit junkies would be but a flesh wound.’
    Indeed. Gardenwalker is at serious risk of becoming an unperson. I did try to warn him ...
    I am very surprised by how touchy the Scottish Nationalists are.

    If I wasn’t persuaded by Scottish independence before, I’m even less so now.
    You're missing the point - it was the Britnats who were amazingly touchy about the UK not continuing. It's so unusual to find anyone remotely critical of the indy movement who doesn't at once latch onto the idea that the UK will always continue.
    I see.
    Well Unionism (capital U) doesn’t strike me as especially unionist, either.
  • GaryLGaryL Posts: 131
    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    carnforth said:

    From the Times. I assume it excludes restaurant spending.



    Bet we pay more for housing though….

    That figure is because, as I understand the media, everyone lives on gravel and the off scourings of Foodbanks. The 11% all goes on Haribos and lard.
    That table does correlate pretty well with the standard of domestic culinary experise. British people are eager consumers of easy to cook/eat junk. Just spy on peoples baskets at the supermarkets.
    Read that last sentence back to yourself, and have a think what it says about you.
    He is a specialist in diabetes. Of course he ****ing looks at supermarket baskets when he's waiting in the queue. I do too, out oif curiosity and nothing else to do. And I've got no dog in the struggle against diabetes, professionally.
    The asterisks give the unfortunate impression that Dr @Foxy is WANKING into supermarket baskets
    Must admit I'm shocked by the average content of supermarket baskets,,,maybe rising food prices won't be such a bad thing
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 104,916
    tlg86 said:

    algarkirk said:

    tlg86 said:

    On topic. Is the expectation that voting reform would happen without a referendum?

    My feeling is no. How the national parliament, therefore government, is formed is fundamental to the constitution. Referendum required. And of course there is now a precedent.
    And we know how supportive Labour MPs were for the abolition of first past the post the last time the question was put to the people.
    No surprise as a third of them would have lost their seats with PR.

    In 1997 Labour got 63% of the seats under FPTP on only 43% of the vote
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,917

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    By the way, if NZ is any guide, any move to PR will lead to various breakaway attempts by assorted gadflies and nutters, and a certain period of instability.

    Over time though we could expect there to be five main parties represented (and assorted nationalists), to wit: Con, Lab, LD, Green and Reform.

    Lab would alternate between Lab/Green and Lab/LD coalitions.

    Con would alternate between Con/Ref and Con/LD coalitions.

    One confounding factor is the SNP and their ability to hold Westminster to random for repeated Indy refs. This needs to be sorted one way or another before PR can really be “safe”.

    You can make exactly the same argument about the LDs or indeed any other third//fourth party. I'm sure the LDs will seek to reverse Brexit and have another referendum, for instance, and as for Ref .... So that argument is moot - it's part and parcel of such a voting system.
    The difference is, third parties in most polities don’t seek to dissolve the actual state.

    It would be daft for Westminster to put itself in a position which strengthened those who literally wish its end.
    You're confusing anarchists and autonomists.
    No, I’m not.

    I simply note that the SNP’s chief policy is to break up the UK.

    If you are “the UK”, you’d want to avoid that.
    That's to split the state - not dissolve it. Dissolve the union of 1707, yes. But that's a different thing.
    Ignorance is breathtaking.
    I didn't know you and I were total anarchists, not to mention subversives.*

    *NB. This is a sarcastic reply, for the benefit of anyone who doesn't know the difference between an independista and an anarcista.
    I’m afraid you’re talking garbage.

    Scottish independence means the end of the UK. Continue to make the case for independence, if you like, but don’t pretend that’s not the case.
    That's an intensely Britnat attitude, or could be taken as one - that the state is the borders of 1707, sorry 1800, sorry 1922, sorry 1956 ...

    Also, I don't recall (genuinely) if you were here for 2014 and the run up, but the Unionist attitude was emphatically that the UK would continue even if Scotland was independent.
    It was indeed.

    ‘How dare you Nats suggest that the UK would not continue? The departure of you oat munching benefit junkies would be but a flesh wound.’
    Indeed. Gardenwalker is at serious risk of becoming an unperson. I did try to warn him ...
    I am very surprised by how touchy the Scottish Nationalists are.

    If I wasn’t persuaded by Scottish independence before, I’m even less so now.
    You're missing the point - it was the Britnats who were amazingly touchy about the UK not continuing. It's so unusual to find anyone remotely critical of the indy movement who doesn't at once latch onto the idea that the UK will always continue.
    I see.
    Well Unionism (capital U) doesn’t strike me as especially unionist, either.
    Hmm. Irish British or Scottish British or Scottish Irish?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    GaryL said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    carnforth said:

    From the Times. I assume it excludes restaurant spending.



    Bet we pay more for housing though….

    That figure is because, as I understand the media, everyone lives on gravel and the off scourings of Foodbanks. The 11% all goes on Haribos and lard.
    That table does correlate pretty well with the standard of domestic culinary experise. British people are eager consumers of easy to cook/eat junk. Just spy on peoples baskets at the supermarkets.
    Read that last sentence back to yourself, and have a think what it says about you.
    He is a specialist in diabetes. Of course he ****ing looks at supermarket baskets when he's waiting in the queue. I do too, out oif curiosity and nothing else to do. And I've got no dog in the struggle against diabetes, professionally.
    The asterisks give the unfortunate impression that Dr @Foxy is WANKING into supermarket baskets
    Must admit I'm shocked by the average content of supermarket baskets,,,maybe rising food prices won't be such a bad thing
    What, so the proles can't afford so much guacamole?

    Forgive my asking but are you a complete arsehole? Don't answer if you would prefer not to say.
  • GaryLGaryL Posts: 131
    I would honestly support rationing of junk food to improve the nations health, max 6 packs of crisps per person per week
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,032
    GaryL said:

    Aslan said:

    GaryL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    GaryL said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    So it's obvious that Scottish football is far inferior to English. The question is, why?

    It depends on what you want out of your football team. Trophies are clearly important to fans, but not the only reason to support. Teams up and down the Leagues get people paying to watch teams that never win anything, apart from ocassional division trophies, and often not many of those. It is intrinsic to the structure of both Leagues and Cups that most teams have virtually empty trophy cabinets.

    It is possible to devise a system for a League with perpetual turnover at the top. The American Football Leagues do this via a draft system, so the bottom teams get preference for the players coming up from the College system. The equivalent here would be Norwich not being relegated and having both the money and right to buy in Haarland. Interesting maybe, but is it what we want?
    That's what the Super League scummers wanted, but just for the Euroelite.
    Ironically the nfl is much more socialist than premier league Honestly can't understand the mentality of a 60 year old man supporting a team like Carlisle united
    What? I mean, big picture-wise the appropriate advice to any adult who claims to support a football team is Get a life, but how do age, sex and Carlisle come in to it?
    Just an example of an older man pointlessly wasting their time on a lost cause
    Like those sad tossers still backing Putin-style ethnonationalist kleptocracy. Western democracy is the future.
    Why are you obsessed with putin,, does he threaten your manhood with his macho ways,,
    More importantly he kills women and children and bombs hospitals

    Everyone who values freedom and democracy should vow to rid the world of this monster
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,453
    Aslan said:

    The LibDems want STV? Jesus wept.

    "A new dawn has broken, but we are still bloody counting!"

    I think the left is making a mistake with PR. Before the referendum UKIP + Tories were often >52%. That would mean a much further right government.
    Sure, that is possible, it is democracy.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,859
    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    carnforth said:

    From the Times. I assume it excludes restaurant spending.



    Bet we pay more for housing though….

    That figure is because, as I understand the media, everyone lives on gravel and the off scourings of Foodbanks. The 11% all goes on Haribos and lard.
    That table does correlate pretty well with the standard of domestic culinary experise. British people are eager consumers of easy to cook/eat junk. Just spy on peoples baskets at the supermarkets.
    Read that last sentence back to yourself, and have a think what it says about you.
    He is a specialist in diabetes. Of course he ****ing looks at supermarket baskets when he's waiting in the queue. I do too, out oif curiosity and nothing else to do. And I've got no dog in the struggle against diabetes, professionally.
    The asterisks give the unfortunate impression that Dr @Foxy is WANKING into supermarket baskets
    I rarely come on pb in the evenings and this is why.

    I'm only on tonight because I am on some travels. I will leave it there.
  • GaryLGaryL Posts: 131
    IshmaelZ said:

    GaryL said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    carnforth said:

    From the Times. I assume it excludes restaurant spending.



    Bet we pay more for housing though….

    That figure is because, as I understand the media, everyone lives on gravel and the off scourings of Foodbanks. The 11% all goes on Haribos and lard.
    That table does correlate pretty well with the standard of domestic culinary experise. British people are eager consumers of easy to cook/eat junk. Just spy on peoples baskets at the supermarkets.
    Read that last sentence back to yourself, and have a think what it says about you.
    He is a specialist in diabetes. Of course he ****ing looks at supermarket baskets when he's waiting in the queue. I do too, out oif curiosity and nothing else to do. And I've got no dog in the struggle against diabetes, professionally.
    The asterisks give the unfortunate impression that Dr @Foxy is WANKING into supermarket baskets
    Must admit I'm shocked by the average content of supermarket baskets,,,maybe rising food prices won't be such a bad thing
    What, so the proles can't afford so much guacamole?

    Forgive my asking but are you a complete arsehole? Don't answer if you would prefer not to say.
    Sadly as we have learnt the past fifty years rising prosperity brings its own problems,,, people can make very bad choices with excess money
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 7,640
    malcolmg said:

    Farooq said:

    malcolmg said:

    Farooq said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Farooq said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Farooq said:

    So it's obvious that Scottish football is far inferior to English. The question is, why?

    Smaller pool, less money, inherent Scotch inferiority.

    What would you like the answer to be?
    I would like the answer to be the right one. I don't have a view here, I'm just interested people's thoughts.
    Scotch pop = 5m English midlands pop = 10m says the internet. There's your answer, no more needed.
    I'm not sure that's enough of an explanation. Ireland has a similar population and Scottish football is head and shoulders above Irish. Turkey has a bigger population than the UK but it's down at about the same level as Scotland. I reckon Cypriot football is a touch above Scotland's, and its population is about half that of Glasgow.
    Cypriot football my butt.
    Actually, you might be right, but only recently. Cypriot football was relatively strong til about three years ago. I just looked at the UEFA coefficients and yes, they've slipped down in recent seasons.
    Scotland had a dire spell whilst Rangers were out but now they are flying due to having both them and Celtic winning lots more ties in recent years. Cannot say I have heard much of cypriot football but never seen or heard of them in European competitions.
    APOEL made the quarter-finals of the Champions League ten years ago.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 30,018

    GaryL said:

    Aslan said:

    GaryL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    GaryL said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    So it's obvious that Scottish football is far inferior to English. The question is, why?

    It depends on what you want out of your football team. Trophies are clearly important to fans, but not the only reason to support. Teams up and down the Leagues get people paying to watch teams that never win anything, apart from ocassional division trophies, and often not many of those. It is intrinsic to the structure of both Leagues and Cups that most teams have virtually empty trophy cabinets.

    It is possible to devise a system for a League with perpetual turnover at the top. The American Football Leagues do this via a draft system, so the bottom teams get preference for the players coming up from the College system. The equivalent here would be Norwich not being relegated and having both the money and right to buy in Haarland. Interesting maybe, but is it what we want?
    That's what the Super League scummers wanted, but just for the Euroelite.
    Ironically the nfl is much more socialist than premier league Honestly can't understand the mentality of a 60 year old man supporting a team like Carlisle united
    What? I mean, big picture-wise the appropriate advice to any adult who claims to support a football team is Get a life, but how do age, sex and Carlisle come in to it?
    Just an example of an older man pointlessly wasting their time on a lost cause
    Like those sad tossers still backing Putin-style ethnonationalist kleptocracy. Western democracy is the future.
    Why are you obsessed with putin,, does he threaten your manhood with his macho ways,,
    More importantly he kills women and children and bombs hospitals

    Everyone who values freedom and democracy should vow to rid the world of this monster
    Light recreational genocide is one thing.

    His taste in interior furnishing is another. Nuke him until he glows. Then shoot him in the dark....

    image
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,453
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    carnforth said:

    From the Times. I assume it excludes restaurant spending.



    Bet we pay more for housing though….

    That figure is because, as I understand the media, everyone lives on gravel and the off scourings of Foodbanks. The 11% all goes on Haribos and lard.
    That table does correlate pretty well with the standard of domestic culinary experise. British people are eager consumers of easy to cook/eat junk. Just spy on peoples baskets at the supermarkets.
    Read that last sentence back to yourself, and have a think what it says about you.
    He is a specialist in diabetes. Of course he ****ing looks at supermarket baskets when he's waiting in the queue. I do too, out oif curiosity and nothing else to do. And I've got no dog in the struggle against diabetes, professionally.
    The asterisks give the unfortunate impression that Dr @Foxy is WANKING into supermarket baskets
    Not consistent with the grammar and parsing, alas. But an intriguing concept and a revelation of the imaginative scope of your intellect.

    TBF: I did once see someone indulging in that activity, but in a bookshop. Decidedly jarring.
    @Leon is in the wanking business. It is a key part of his clientele, and he needs to keep aware of their habits.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,032
    GaryL said:

    GaryL said:

    GaryL said:

    carnforth said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:



    You literally have no passport? You NEVER travel abroad? Really?

    17% of people don't. (In the US, it's 60%!) It's one of those things that people who have them can't imagine not having, like a TV or a bicycle, but which many people don't feel they need/ (I have a passport, but not a TV or a bike...)
    To be fair to Americans, they have a lot more geography. When your country is that big it fulfils many of the reasons Brits go abroad (i.e. for sun, or snow).

    And when they want a tropical holiday they go to Hawaii
    In addition, some of the caribbean islands do not require a passport for flights from the US.
    Neither does Mexico ,, this stuff about people in the USA being uninterested in world because don't have passport is rubbish, majority of people in UK only go abroad for weather not the culture
    Speaking for my wife and myself who have been round the world many times, visiting all the bucket shop locations, including Antarctica your comment is not supported by all the fellow travellers we have met on these journeys who have travelled not just to broaden their horizons but enjoy the culture of the places visited, and yes we have even been in the Kremlin
    Yes but people like you are the minority Most people jus want that week of sun in benidorm
    Even Benidorm has culture

    Most every holidaymaker will take in the culture of the places they visit wherever they are
    Lol you are on a windup average uk holidaymaker just wants cheap booze and English food,,,
    Your link for that claim?
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,859
    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    carnforth said:

    From the Times. I assume it excludes restaurant spending.



    Bet we pay more for housing though….

    That figure is because, as I understand the media, everyone lives on gravel and the off scourings of Foodbanks. The 11% all goes on Haribos and lard.
    That table does correlate pretty well with the standard of domestic culinary experise. British people are eager consumers of easy to cook/eat junk. Just spy on peoples baskets at the supermarkets.
    Read that last sentence back to yourself, and have a think what it says about you.
    I've got no dog in the struggle
    I also feel like I've stepped into an alternative version of the English language ;)

    Peace all. I'm kinda joshing.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 7,640
    GaryL said:

    Aslan said:

    GaryL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    GaryL said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    So it's obvious that Scottish football is far inferior to English. The question is, why?

    It depends on what you want out of your football team. Trophies are clearly important to fans, but not the only reason to support. Teams up and down the Leagues get people paying to watch teams that never win anything, apart from ocassional division trophies, and often not many of those. It is intrinsic to the structure of both Leagues and Cups that most teams have virtually empty trophy cabinets.

    It is possible to devise a system for a League with perpetual turnover at the top. The American Football Leagues do this via a draft system, so the bottom teams get preference for the players coming up from the College system. The equivalent here would be Norwich not being relegated and having both the money and right to buy in Haarland. Interesting maybe, but is it what we want?
    That's what the Super League scummers wanted, but just for the Euroelite.
    Ironically the nfl is much more socialist than premier league Honestly can't understand the mentality of a 60 year old man supporting a team like Carlisle united
    What? I mean, big picture-wise the appropriate advice to any adult who claims to support a football team is Get a life, but how do age, sex and Carlisle come in to it?
    Just an example of an older man pointlessly wasting their time on a lost cause
    Like those sad tossers still backing Putin-style ethnonationalist kleptocracy. Western democracy is the future.
    Why are you obsessed with putin,, does he threaten your manhood with his macho ways,,
    Gee I wonder why an anti-semitic genocidal dictator waging war on several countries, murdering people on the streets of UK, and threatening our allies occupies our attention? A riddle indeed.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,859
    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    carnforth said:

    From the Times. I assume it excludes restaurant spending.



    Bet we pay more for housing though….

    That figure is because, as I understand the media, everyone lives on gravel and the off scourings of Foodbanks. The 11% all goes on Haribos and lard.
    That table does correlate pretty well with the standard of domestic culinary experise. British people are eager consumers of easy to cook/eat junk. Just spy on peoples baskets at the supermarkets.
    Read that last sentence back to yourself, and have a think what it says about you.
    I've got no dog in the struggle
    I also feel like I've stepped into an alternative version of the English language ;)

    Peace all. I'm kinda joshing.
  • GaryLGaryL Posts: 131

    GaryL said:

    Aslan said:

    GaryL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    GaryL said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    So it's obvious that Scottish football is far inferior to English. The question is, why?

    It depends on what you want out of your football team. Trophies are clearly important to fans, but not the only reason to support. Teams up and down the Leagues get people paying to watch teams that never win anything, apart from ocassional division trophies, and often not many of those. It is intrinsic to the structure of both Leagues and Cups that most teams have virtually empty trophy cabinets.

    It is possible to devise a system for a League with perpetual turnover at the top. The American Football Leagues do this via a draft system, so the bottom teams get preference for the players coming up from the College system. The equivalent here would be Norwich not being relegated and having both the money and right to buy in Haarland. Interesting maybe, but is it what we want?
    That's what the Super League scummers wanted, but just for the Euroelite.
    Ironically the nfl is much more socialist than premier league Honestly can't understand the mentality of a 60 year old man supporting a team like Carlisle united
    What? I mean, big picture-wise the appropriate advice to any adult who claims to support a football team is Get a life, but how do age, sex and Carlisle come in to it?
    Just an example of an older man pointlessly wasting their time on a lost cause
    Like those sad tossers still backing Putin-style ethnonationalist kleptocracy. Western democracy is the future.
    Why are you obsessed with putin,, does he threaten your manhood with his macho ways,,
    More importantly he kills women and children and bombs hospitals

    Everyone who values freedom and democracy should vow to rid the world of this monster
    We all want that it is a question of how we arrive at this objective and how many innocent Ukrainians we are prepared to sacrifice
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,032
    edited May 22
    GaryL said:

    GaryL said:

    Aslan said:

    GaryL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    GaryL said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    So it's obvious that Scottish football is far inferior to English. The question is, why?

    It depends on what you want out of your football team. Trophies are clearly important to fans, but not the only reason to support. Teams up and down the Leagues get people paying to watch teams that never win anything, apart from ocassional division trophies, and often not many of those. It is intrinsic to the structure of both Leagues and Cups that most teams have virtually empty trophy cabinets.

    It is possible to devise a system for a League with perpetual turnover at the top. The American Football Leagues do this via a draft system, so the bottom teams get preference for the players coming up from the College system. The equivalent here would be Norwich not being relegated and having both the money and right to buy in Haarland. Interesting maybe, but is it what we want?
    That's what the Super League scummers wanted, but just for the Euroelite.
    Ironically the nfl is much more socialist than premier league Honestly can't understand the mentality of a 60 year old man supporting a team like Carlisle united
    What? I mean, big picture-wise the appropriate advice to any adult who claims to support a football team is Get a life, but how do age, sex and Carlisle come in to it?
    Just an example of an older man pointlessly wasting their time on a lost cause
    Like those sad tossers still backing Putin-style ethnonationalist kleptocracy. Western democracy is the future.
    Why are you obsessed with putin,, does he threaten your manhood with his macho ways,,
    More importantly he kills women and children and bombs hospitals

    Everyone who values freedom and democracy should vow to rid the world of this monster
    We all want that it is a question of how we arrive at this objective and how many innocent Ukrainians we are prepared to sacrifice
    Did you learn that line in the Kremlin?
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,859
    edited May 22
    By the way, and this might be one for @Leon to get his teeth into, in case this hasn't been posited before:

    Anyone think the Hepatitis and Monkeypox outbreaks could be the work of Putin?

    Or has this been suggested a zillion times in my frequent absences?
  • GaryLGaryL Posts: 131
    Farooq said:

    GaryL said:

    Aslan said:

    GaryL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    GaryL said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    So it's obvious that Scottish football is far inferior to English. The question is, why?

    It depends on what you want out of your football team. Trophies are clearly important to fans, but not the only reason to support. Teams up and down the Leagues get people paying to watch teams that never win anything, apart from ocassional division trophies, and often not many of those. It is intrinsic to the structure of both Leagues and Cups that most teams have virtually empty trophy cabinets.

    It is possible to devise a system for a League with perpetual turnover at the top. The American Football Leagues do this via a draft system, so the bottom teams get preference for the players coming up from the College system. The equivalent here would be Norwich not being relegated and having both the money and right to buy in Haarland. Interesting maybe, but is it what we want?
    That's what the Super League scummers wanted, but just for the Euroelite.
    Ironically the nfl is much more socialist than premier league Honestly can't understand the mentality of a 60 year old man supporting a team like Carlisle united
    What? I mean, big picture-wise the appropriate advice to any adult who claims to support a football team is Get a life, but how do age, sex and Carlisle come in to it?
    Just an example of an older man pointlessly wasting their time on a lost cause
    Like those sad tossers still backing Putin-style ethnonationalist kleptocracy. Western democracy is the future.
    Why are you obsessed with putin,, does he threaten your manhood with his macho ways,,
    Gee I wonder why an anti-semitic genocidal dictator waging war on several countries, murdering people on the streets of UK, and threatening our allies occupies our attention? A riddle indeed.
    I'm hearing another hardliner is running things in the Kremlin now and Putin has stepped back from many of his duties
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,032
    GaryL said:

    Farooq said:

    GaryL said:

    Aslan said:

    GaryL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    GaryL said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    So it's obvious that Scottish football is far inferior to English. The question is, why?

    It depends on what you want out of your football team. Trophies are clearly important to fans, but not the only reason to support. Teams up and down the Leagues get people paying to watch teams that never win anything, apart from ocassional division trophies, and often not many of those. It is intrinsic to the structure of both Leagues and Cups that most teams have virtually empty trophy cabinets.

    It is possible to devise a system for a League with perpetual turnover at the top. The American Football Leagues do this via a draft system, so the bottom teams get preference for the players coming up from the College system. The equivalent here would be Norwich not being relegated and having both the money and right to buy in Haarland. Interesting maybe, but is it what we want?
    That's what the Super League scummers wanted, but just for the Euroelite.
    Ironically the nfl is much more socialist than premier league Honestly can't understand the mentality of a 60 year old man supporting a team like Carlisle united
    What? I mean, big picture-wise the appropriate advice to any adult who claims to support a football team is Get a life, but how do age, sex and Carlisle come in to it?
    Just an example of an older man pointlessly wasting their time on a lost cause
    Like those sad tossers still backing Putin-style ethnonationalist kleptocracy. Western democracy is the future.
    Why are you obsessed with putin,, does he threaten your manhood with his macho ways,,
    Gee I wonder why an anti-semitic genocidal dictator waging war on several countries, murdering people on the streets of UK, and threatening our allies occupies our attention? A riddle indeed.
    I'm hearing another hardliner is running things in the Kremlin now and Putin has stepped back from many of his duties
    Was that from your briefing today ?
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,859
    GaryL said:

    Farooq said:

    GaryL said:

    Aslan said:

    GaryL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    GaryL said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    So it's obvious that Scottish football is far inferior to English. The question is, why?

    It depends on what you want out of your football team. Trophies are clearly important to fans, but not the only reason to support. Teams up and down the Leagues get people paying to watch teams that never win anything, apart from ocassional division trophies, and often not many of those. It is intrinsic to the structure of both Leagues and Cups that most teams have virtually empty trophy cabinets.

    It is possible to devise a system for a League with perpetual turnover at the top. The American Football Leagues do this via a draft system, so the bottom teams get preference for the players coming up from the College system. The equivalent here would be Norwich not being relegated and having both the money and right to buy in Haarland. Interesting maybe, but is it what we want?
    That's what the Super League scummers wanted, but just for the Euroelite.
    Ironically the nfl is much more socialist than premier league Honestly can't understand the mentality of a 60 year old man supporting a team like Carlisle united
    What? I mean, big picture-wise the appropriate advice to any adult who claims to support a football team is Get a life, but how do age, sex and Carlisle come in to it?
    Just an example of an older man pointlessly wasting their time on a lost cause
    Like those sad tossers still backing Putin-style ethnonationalist kleptocracy. Western democracy is the future.
    Why are you obsessed with putin,, does he threaten your manhood with his macho ways,,
    Gee I wonder why an anti-semitic genocidal dictator waging war on several countries, murdering people on the streets of UK, and threatening our allies occupies our attention? A riddle indeed.
    I'm hearing another hardliner is running things in the Kremlin now
    Your boss?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,454
    edited May 22
    GaryL said:

    Farooq said:

    GaryL said:

    Aslan said:

    GaryL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    GaryL said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    So it's obvious that Scottish football is far inferior to English. The question is, why?

    It depends on what you want out of your football team. Trophies are clearly important to fans, but not the only reason to support. Teams up and down the Leagues get people paying to watch teams that never win anything, apart from ocassional division trophies, and often not many of those. It is intrinsic to the structure of both Leagues and Cups that most teams have virtually empty trophy cabinets.

    It is possible to devise a system for a League with perpetual turnover at the top. The American Football Leagues do this via a draft system, so the bottom teams get preference for the players coming up from the College system. The equivalent here would be Norwich not being relegated and having both the money and right to buy in Haarland. Interesting maybe, but is it what we want?
    That's what the Super League scummers wanted, but just for the Euroelite.
    Ironically the nfl is much more socialist than premier league Honestly can't understand the mentality of a 60 year old man supporting a team like Carlisle united
    What? I mean, big picture-wise the appropriate advice to any adult who claims to support a football team is Get a life, but how do age, sex and Carlisle come in to it?
    Just an example of an older man pointlessly wasting their time on a lost cause
    Like those sad tossers still backing Putin-style ethnonationalist kleptocracy. Western democracy is the future.
    Why are you obsessed with putin,, does he threaten your manhood with his macho ways,,
    Gee I wonder why an anti-semitic genocidal dictator waging war on several countries, murdering people on the streets of UK, and threatening our allies occupies our attention? A riddle indeed.
    I'm hearing another hardliner is running things in the Kremlin now and Putin has stepped back from many of his duties
    Begs lots of questions...
    (a) Hearing from who/whom?
    (b) By what medium (radio, TV, newspaper, twitter, word of mouth)?
    (c) Why are you finding out and not serious analysts and reporters?
    (d) Why am I wasting time replying to a bot?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,917

    GaryL said:

    Farooq said:

    GaryL said:

    Aslan said:

    GaryL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    GaryL said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    So it's obvious that Scottish football is far inferior to English. The question is, why?

    It depends on what you want out of your football team. Trophies are clearly important to fans, but not the only reason to support. Teams up and down the Leagues get people paying to watch teams that never win anything, apart from ocassional division trophies, and often not many of those. It is intrinsic to the structure of both Leagues and Cups that most teams have virtually empty trophy cabinets.

    It is possible to devise a system for a League with perpetual turnover at the top. The American Football Leagues do this via a draft system, so the bottom teams get preference for the players coming up from the College system. The equivalent here would be Norwich not being relegated and having both the money and right to buy in Haarland. Interesting maybe, but is it what we want?
    That's what the Super League scummers wanted, but just for the Euroelite.
    Ironically the nfl is much more socialist than premier league Honestly can't understand the mentality of a 60 year old man supporting a team like Carlisle united
    What? I mean, big picture-wise the appropriate advice to any adult who claims to support a football team is Get a life, but how do age, sex and Carlisle come in to it?
    Just an example of an older man pointlessly wasting their time on a lost cause
    Like those sad tossers still backing Putin-style ethnonationalist kleptocracy. Western democracy is the future.
    Why are you obsessed with putin,, does he threaten your manhood with his macho ways,,
    Gee I wonder why an anti-semitic genocidal dictator waging war on several countries, murdering people on the streets of UK, and threatening our allies occupies our attention? A riddle indeed.
    I'm hearing another hardliner is running things in the Kremlin now and Putin has stepped back from many of his duties
    Begs lots of questions...
    (a) Hearing from whom/whom?
    (b) By what medium (radio, TV, newspaper, twitter, word of mouth)?
    (c) Why are you finding out and not serious analysts and reporters?
    (d) Why am I wasting time replying to a bot?
    (d) exploring the limits of the Turing test?
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,859

    GaryL said:

    GaryL said:

    Aslan said:

    GaryL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    GaryL said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    So it's obvious that Scottish football is far inferior to English. The question is, why?

    It depends on what you want out of your football team. Trophies are clearly important to fans, but not the only reason to support. Teams up and down the Leagues get people paying to watch teams that never win anything, apart from ocassional division trophies, and often not many of those. It is intrinsic to the structure of both Leagues and Cups that most teams have virtually empty trophy cabinets.

    It is possible to devise a system for a League with perpetual turnover at the top. The American Football Leagues do this via a draft system, so the bottom teams get preference for the players coming up from the College system. The equivalent here would be Norwich not being relegated and having both the money and right to buy in Haarland. Interesting maybe, but is it what we want?
    That's what the Super League scummers wanted, but just for the Euroelite.
    Ironically the nfl is much more socialist than premier league Honestly can't understand the mentality of a 60 year old man supporting a team like Carlisle united
    What? I mean, big picture-wise the appropriate advice to any adult who claims to support a football team is Get a life, but how do age, sex and Carlisle come in to it?
    Just an example of an older man pointlessly wasting their time on a lost cause
    Like those sad tossers still backing Putin-style ethnonationalist kleptocracy. Western democracy is the future.
    Why are you obsessed with putin,, does he threaten your manhood with his macho ways,,
    More importantly he kills women and children and bombs hospitals

    Everyone who values freedom and democracy should vow to rid the world of this monster
    We all want that it is a question of how we arrive at this objective and how many innocent Ukrainians we are prepared to sacrifice
    Did you learn that line in the Kremlin?
    If he did then they need to sharpen up their use of English, especially if they want to conquer the world.

    That's the trouble with these oligarchs. They're not very good at what they do. Hitler was a great example of a really crap general. A complete buffoon militarily, like Putin.

    I may have got the invasion completely wrong but I did say it was based on them not having much chance of winning. And so it has come to pass. A rubbish army with poor equipment led by a lunatic who doesn't know what he's doing.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 19,944
    Heathener said:

    By the way, and this might be one for @Leon to get his teeth into, in case this hasn't been posited before:

    Anyone think the Hepatitis and Monkeypox outbreaks could be the work of Putin?

    Or has this been suggested a zillion times in my frequent absences?

    Definitely not the work of Putin.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    GaryL said:

    Aslan said:

    GaryL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    GaryL said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    So it's obvious that Scottish football is far inferior to English. The question is, why?

    It depends on what you want out of your football team. Trophies are clearly important to fans, but not the only reason to support. Teams up and down the Leagues get people paying to watch teams that never win anything, apart from ocassional division trophies, and often not many of those. It is intrinsic to the structure of both Leagues and Cups that most teams have virtually empty trophy cabinets.

    It is possible to devise a system for a League with perpetual turnover at the top. The American Football Leagues do this via a draft system, so the bottom teams get preference for the players coming up from the College system. The equivalent here would be Norwich not being relegated and having both the money and right to buy in Haarland. Interesting maybe, but is it what we want?
    That's what the Super League scummers wanted, but just for the Euroelite.
    Ironically the nfl is much more socialist than premier league Honestly can't understand the mentality of a 60 year old man supporting a team like Carlisle united
    What? I mean, big picture-wise the appropriate advice to any adult who claims to support a football team is Get a life, but how do age, sex and Carlisle come in to it?
    Just an example of an older man pointlessly wasting their time on a lost cause
    Like those sad tossers still backing Putin-style ethnonationalist kleptocracy. Western democracy is the future.
    Why are you obsessed with putin,, does he threaten your manhood with his macho ways,,
    Lol, a short man with saggy breasts. The only thing less masculine than him are the bottom feeders that do his bidding for a few rubles of a potemkin currency each day.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,859
    Andy_JS said:

    Heathener said:

    By the way, and this might be one for @Leon to get his teeth into, in case this hasn't been posited before:

    Anyone think the Hepatitis and Monkeypox outbreaks could be the work of Putin?

    Or has this been suggested a zillion times in my frequent absences?

    Definitely not the work of Putin.
    He has history of NBC - nuclear, biological and chemical.

    I've been half expecting some dirty deeds on the west. So I was just curious.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,454
    Heathener said:

    GaryL said:

    GaryL said:

    Aslan said:

    GaryL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    GaryL said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    So it's obvious that Scottish football is far inferior to English. The question is, why?

    It depends on what you want out of your football team. Trophies are clearly important to fans, but not the only reason to support. Teams up and down the Leagues get people paying to watch teams that never win anything, apart from ocassional division trophies, and often not many of those. It is intrinsic to the structure of both Leagues and Cups that most teams have virtually empty trophy cabinets.

    It is possible to devise a system for a League with perpetual turnover at the top. The American Football Leagues do this via a draft system, so the bottom teams get preference for the players coming up from the College system. The equivalent here would be Norwich not being relegated and having both the money and right to buy in Haarland. Interesting maybe, but is it what we want?
    That's what the Super League scummers wanted, but just for the Euroelite.
    Ironically the nfl is much more socialist than premier league Honestly can't understand the mentality of a 60 year old man supporting a team like Carlisle united
    What? I mean, big picture-wise the appropriate advice to any adult who claims to support a football team is Get a life, but how do age, sex and Carlisle come in to it?
    Just an example of an older man pointlessly wasting their time on a lost cause
    Like those sad tossers still backing Putin-style ethnonationalist kleptocracy. Western democracy is the future.
    Why are you obsessed with putin,, does he threaten your manhood with his macho ways,,
    More importantly he kills women and children and bombs hospitals

    Everyone who values freedom and democracy should vow to rid the world of this monster
    We all want that it is a question of how we arrive at this objective and how many innocent Ukrainians we are prepared to sacrifice
    Did you learn that line in the Kremlin?
    If he did then they need to sharpen up their use of English, especially if they want to conquer the world.

    That's the trouble with these oligarchs. They're not very good at what they do. Hitler was a great example of a really crap general. A complete buffoon militarily, like Putin.

    I may have got the invasion completely wrong but I did say it was based on them not having much chance of winning. And so it has come to pass. A rubbish army with poor equipment led by a lunatic who doesn't know what he's doing.
    Hitler made one really big call correctly that most generals would have got wrong - the stand fast in 1941 when the USSR counter attacked at Moscow. Almost certainly avoided a catastrophe for the German army.
    Happily for the rest of the world he then repeated this tactic for the next 4 years with disastrous consequences. For instance in Normandy it allowed the panzer divisions to be chewed up in range of the naval guns, rather than retreating inland to allow for a more strategic counter offensive.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 7,640
    GaryL said:

    Farooq said:

    GaryL said:

    Aslan said:

    GaryL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    GaryL said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    So it's obvious that Scottish football is far inferior to English. The question is, why?

    It depends on what you want out of your football team. Trophies are clearly important to fans, but not the only reason to support. Teams up and down the Leagues get people paying to watch teams that never win anything, apart from ocassional division trophies, and often not many of those. It is intrinsic to the structure of both Leagues and Cups that most teams have virtually empty trophy cabinets.

    It is possible to devise a system for a League with perpetual turnover at the top. The American Football Leagues do this via a draft system, so the bottom teams get preference for the players coming up from the College system. The equivalent here would be Norwich not being relegated and having both the money and right to buy in Haarland. Interesting maybe, but is it what we want?
    That's what the Super League scummers wanted, but just for the Euroelite.
    Ironically the nfl is much more socialist than premier league Honestly can't understand the mentality of a 60 year old man supporting a team like Carlisle united
    What? I mean, big picture-wise the appropriate advice to any adult who claims to support a football team is Get a life, but how do age, sex and Carlisle come in to it?
    Just an example of an older man pointlessly wasting their time on a lost cause
    Like those sad tossers still backing Putin-style ethnonationalist kleptocracy. Western democracy is the future.
    Why are you obsessed with putin,, does he threaten your manhood with his macho ways,,
    Gee I wonder why an anti-semitic genocidal dictator waging war on several countries, murdering people on the streets of UK, and threatening our allies occupies our attention? A riddle indeed.
    I'm hearing another hardliner is running things in the Kremlin now and Putin has stepped back from many of his duties
    He goes by name of Pladimir Vutin
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,859
    Anyhoooo, I've got to go.

    xx
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,859

    Heathener said:

    GaryL said:

    GaryL said:

    Aslan said:

    GaryL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    GaryL said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    So it's obvious that Scottish football is far inferior to English. The question is, why?

    It depends on what you want out of your football team. Trophies are clearly important to fans, but not the only reason to support. Teams up and down the Leagues get people paying to watch teams that never win anything, apart from ocassional division trophies, and often not many of those. It is intrinsic to the structure of both Leagues and Cups that most teams have virtually empty trophy cabinets.

    It is possible to devise a system for a League with perpetual turnover at the top. The American Football Leagues do this via a draft system, so the bottom teams get preference for the players coming up from the College system. The equivalent here would be Norwich not being relegated and having both the money and right to buy in Haarland. Interesting maybe, but is it what we want?
    That's what the Super League scummers wanted, but just for the Euroelite.
    Ironically the nfl is much more socialist than premier league Honestly can't understand the mentality of a 60 year old man supporting a team like Carlisle united
    What? I mean, big picture-wise the appropriate advice to any adult who claims to support a football team is Get a life, but how do age, sex and Carlisle come in to it?
    Just an example of an older man pointlessly wasting their time on a lost cause
    Like those sad tossers still backing Putin-style ethnonationalist kleptocracy. Western democracy is the future.
    Why are you obsessed with putin,, does he threaten your manhood with his macho ways,,
    More importantly he kills women and children and bombs hospitals

    Everyone who values freedom and democracy should vow to rid the world of this monster
    We all want that it is a question of how we arrive at this objective and how many innocent Ukrainians we are prepared to sacrifice
    Did you learn that line in the Kremlin?
    If he did then they need to sharpen up their use of English, especially if they want to conquer the world.

    That's the trouble with these oligarchs. They're not very good at what they do. Hitler was a great example of a really crap general. A complete buffoon militarily, like Putin.

    I may have got the invasion completely wrong but I did say it was based on them not having much chance of winning. And so it has come to pass. A rubbish army with poor equipment led by a lunatic who doesn't know what he's doing.
    Hitler made one really big call correctly that most generals would have got wrong - the stand fast in 1941 when the USSR counter attacked at Moscow. Almost certainly avoided a catastrophe for the German army.
    Happily for the rest of the world he then repeated this tactic for the next 4 years with disastrous consequences. For instance in Normandy it allowed the panzer divisions to be chewed up in range of the naval guns, rather than retreating inland to allow for a more strategic counter offensive.
    Yes indeed.

    Stalingrad for example was most certainly not an example of his finest hour. The annihilation of the German Sixth Army probably turned the entire war.

    Prior to that, opening up two fronts was idiocy and there were a series of other spectacular blunders, including Dunkirk of course.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 24,297

    So close, but what an amazing season anyway. Credit to Man City, deserved Champions, though Liverpool would have deserved it too, any club that gets over 90 points ought to be Champions.

    The Premier League is incredible, isn't it? Well done City.

    But it's FPTP.
    Aslan said:

    The LibDems want STV? Jesus wept.

    "A new dawn has broken, but we are still bloody counting!"

    I think the left is making a mistake with PR. Before the referendum UKIP + Tories were often >52%. That would mean a much further right government.
    As a Lefty, I would have no problem with that.
    If the Tory/UKIP vote was 50% plus then they should be the government.
    I have a problem with majorities bulldozing their measures through against the wishes of 2 in 3 voters.
    And yes. That includes 2005. The most egregious of the lot.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,242
    edited May 22
    GaryL said:

    GaryL said:

    Aslan said:

    GaryL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    GaryL said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    So it's obvious that Scottish football is far inferior to English. The question is, why?

    It depends on what you want out of your football team. Trophies are clearly important to fans, but not the only reason to support. Teams up and down the Leagues get people paying to watch teams that never win anything, apart from ocassional division trophies, and often not many of those. It is intrinsic to the structure of both Leagues and Cups that most teams have virtually empty trophy cabinets.

    It is possible to devise a system for a League with perpetual turnover at the top. The American Football Leagues do this via a draft system, so the bottom teams get preference for the players coming up from the College system. The equivalent here would be Norwich not being relegated and having both the money and right to buy in Haarland. Interesting maybe, but is it what we want?
    That's what the Super League scummers wanted, but just for the Euroelite.
    Ironically the nfl is much more socialist than premier league Honestly can't understand the mentality of a 60 year old man supporting a team like Carlisle united
    What? I mean, big picture-wise the appropriate advice to any adult who claims to support a football team is Get a life, but how do age, sex and Carlisle come in to it?
    Just an example of an older man pointlessly wasting their time on a lost cause
    Like those sad tossers still backing Putin-style ethnonationalist kleptocracy. Western democracy is the future.
    Why are you obsessed with putin,, does he threaten your manhood with his macho ways,,
    More importantly he kills women and children and bombs hospitals

    Everyone who values freedom and democracy should vow to rid the world of this monster
    We all want that it is a question of how we arrive at this objective and how many innocent Ukrainians we are prepared to sacrifice
    It isn't us sacrificing them. They are at the flashpoint of this confrontation through no fault of theirs, or ours for that matter. Their choice, or not, to fight on and sacrifice is theirs to make.

    I don't know why people still try out the 'people dying is bad, therefore Ukraine should give up/people should stop supporting them' dodge after all this time. Trying to present it as deriving from compassion doesn't disguise that that is the argument being made, as a logical follow on from the attempt to flip responsibility for any deaths onto, say, us. The flipping is the giveaway about what argument is actually being made, even when it is not outright stated.

    The 'compassion' line tries to make the idea of supporting Ukrainians in their resistance to be a complex issue ('but but, it means some people will die'), but in fact it is very simple indeed. Some things are. If they are willing to keep fighting, there are zero difficult issues around the morality of that. Some might want to take a hard nosed realpolitik view about the costs to ourselves, but that is not the position of the 'compassionate' crowd.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 42,597
    Aslan said:

    The LibDems want STV? Jesus wept.

    "A new dawn has broken, but we are still bloody counting!"

    I think the left is making a mistake with PR. Before the referendum UKIP + Tories were often >52%. That would mean a much further right government.
    And in 2019?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 30,018
    GaryL said:

    GaryL said:

    Aslan said:

    GaryL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    GaryL said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    So it's obvious that Scottish football is far inferior to English. The question is, why?

    It depends on what you want out of your football team. Trophies are clearly important to fans, but not the only reason to support. Teams up and down the Leagues get people paying to watch teams that never win anything, apart from ocassional division trophies, and often not many of those. It is intrinsic to the structure of both Leagues and Cups that most teams have virtually empty trophy cabinets.

    It is possible to devise a system for a League with perpetual turnover at the top. The American Football Leagues do this via a draft system, so the bottom teams get preference for the players coming up from the College system. The equivalent here would be Norwich not being relegated and having both the money and right to buy in Haarland. Interesting maybe, but is it what we want?
    That's what the Super League scummers wanted, but just for the Euroelite.
    Ironically the nfl is much more socialist than premier league Honestly can't understand the mentality of a 60 year old man supporting a team like Carlisle united
    What? I mean, big picture-wise the appropriate advice to any adult who claims to support a football team is Get a life, but how do age, sex and Carlisle come in to it?
    Just an example of an older man pointlessly wasting their time on a lost cause
    Like those sad tossers still backing Putin-style ethnonationalist kleptocracy. Western democracy is the future.
    Why are you obsessed with putin,, does he threaten your manhood with his macho ways,,
    More importantly he kills women and children and bombs hospitals

    Everyone who values freedom and democracy should vow to rid the world of this monster
    We all want that it is a question of how we arrive at this objective and how many innocent Ukrainians we are prepared to sacrifice
    Ask the democratically elected Ukrainian government - it’s their sacrifice, by their people.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 30,018
    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    GaryL said:

    GaryL said:

    Aslan said:

    GaryL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    GaryL said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    So it's obvious that Scottish football is far inferior to English. The question is, why?

    It depends on what you want out of your football team. Trophies are clearly important to fans, but not the only reason to support. Teams up and down the Leagues get people paying to watch teams that never win anything, apart from ocassional division trophies, and often not many of those. It is intrinsic to the structure of both Leagues and Cups that most teams have virtually empty trophy cabinets.

    It is possible to devise a system for a League with perpetual turnover at the top. The American Football Leagues do this via a draft system, so the bottom teams get preference for the players coming up from the College system. The equivalent here would be Norwich not being relegated and having both the money and right to buy in Haarland. Interesting maybe, but is it what we want?
    That's what the Super League scummers wanted, but just for the Euroelite.
    Ironically the nfl is much more socialist than premier league Honestly can't understand the mentality of a 60 year old man supporting a team like Carlisle united
    What? I mean, big picture-wise the appropriate advice to any adult who claims to support a football team is Get a life, but how do age, sex and Carlisle come in to it?
    Just an example of an older man pointlessly wasting their time on a lost cause
    Like those sad tossers still backing Putin-style ethnonationalist kleptocracy. Western democracy is the future.
    Why are you obsessed with putin,, does he threaten your manhood with his macho ways,,
    More importantly he kills women and children and bombs hospitals

    Everyone who values freedom and democracy should vow to rid the world of this monster
    We all want that it is a question of how we arrive at this objective and how many innocent Ukrainians we are prepared to sacrifice
    Did you learn that line in the Kremlin?
    If he did then they need to sharpen up their use of English, especially if they want to conquer the world.

    That's the trouble with these oligarchs. They're not very good at what they do. Hitler was a great example of a really crap general. A complete buffoon militarily, like Putin.

    I may have got the invasion completely wrong but I did say it was based on them not having much chance of winning. And so it has come to pass. A rubbish army with poor equipment led by a lunatic who doesn't know what he's doing.
    Hitler made one really big call correctly that most generals would have got wrong - the stand fast in 1941 when the USSR counter attacked at Moscow. Almost certainly avoided a catastrophe for the German army.
    Happily for the rest of the world he then repeated this tactic for the next 4 years with disastrous consequences. For instance in Normandy it allowed the panzer divisions to be chewed up in range of the naval guns, rather than retreating inland to allow for a more strategic counter offensive.
    Yes indeed.

    Stalingrad for example was most certainly not an example of his finest hour. The annihilation of the German Sixth Army probably turned the entire war.

    Prior to that, opening up two fronts was idiocy and there were a series of other spectacular blunders, including Dunkirk of course.
    Worth mentioning that judging the likelihood of a war breaking out by the objective probability of winning is a bad methodology - the side starting a war, since the industrial revolution, has ended up losing, more often than not.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 15,025
    kjh said:

    Omnium said:

    Sean_F said:

    On topic, I don't think for one moment that changing the voting system to PR would guarantee a permanent left wing majority. Parties of the Right outpolled parties of the Left in each of the EU elections in 2004, 2009, and 2014, and were very close in 2019, all of them conducted under PR.

    If you change the voting system, many people will just vote differently.

    Well it would guarantee Ed Davey a permanant place in Government. I can't speak for everyone but if we dissect that then the worst leader ever of an unpopular party becomes kingmaker.

    I don't think it does. You are assuming nothing changes re the parties and as @Sean_F points out people would also vote differently. New parties would form and existing ones would split. I assume there would be a small liberal party and a separate bigger SDP made up from ex LDs and some Labour. I think the Tories would split also into two with a large centre right group and smaller more right wing group. I would probably be in the small liberal party.
    If I recall, Teddy Edward was quite a decent minister when in power.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 10,472
    edited May 22
    dixiedean said:

    So close, but what an amazing season anyway. Credit to Man City, deserved Champions, though Liverpool would have deserved it too, any club that gets over 90 points ought to be Champions.

    The Premier League is incredible, isn't it? Well done City.

    But it's FPTP.
    Aslan said:

    The LibDems want STV? Jesus wept.

    "A new dawn has broken, but we are still bloody counting!"

    I think the left is making a mistake with PR. Before the referendum UKIP + Tories were often >52%. That would mean a much further right government.
    As a Lefty, I would have no problem with that.
    If the Tory/UKIP vote was 50% plus then they should be the government.
    I have a problem with majorities bulldozing their measures through against the wishes of 2 in 3 voters.
    And yes. That includes 2005. The most egregious of the lot.
    Yes. If we'd had PR, and Blair had been turfed out of office after GE2005, I think that would have been pretty good for British politics following Iraq.

    Instead FPTP kept Blair in place.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 7,640

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    GaryL said:

    GaryL said:

    Aslan said:

    GaryL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    GaryL said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    So it's obvious that Scottish football is far inferior to English. The question is, why?

    It depends on what you want out of your football team. Trophies are clearly important to fans, but not the only reason to support. Teams up and down the Leagues get people paying to watch teams that never win anything, apart from ocassional division trophies, and often not many of those. It is intrinsic to the structure of both Leagues and Cups that most teams have virtually empty trophy cabinets.

    It is possible to devise a system for a League with perpetual turnover at the top. The American Football Leagues do this via a draft system, so the bottom teams get preference for the players coming up from the College system. The equivalent here would be Norwich not being relegated and having both the money and right to buy in Haarland. Interesting maybe, but is it what we want?
    That's what the Super League scummers wanted, but just for the Euroelite.
    Ironically the nfl is much more socialist than premier league Honestly can't understand the mentality of a 60 year old man supporting a team like Carlisle united
    What? I mean, big picture-wise the appropriate advice to any adult who claims to support a football team is Get a life, but how do age, sex and Carlisle come in to it?
    Just an example of an older man pointlessly wasting their time on a lost cause
    Like those sad tossers still backing Putin-style ethnonationalist kleptocracy. Western democracy is the future.
    Why are you obsessed with putin,, does he threaten your manhood with his macho ways,,
    More importantly he kills women and children and bombs hospitals

    Everyone who values freedom and democracy should vow to rid the world of this monster
    We all want that it is a question of how we arrive at this objective and how many innocent Ukrainians we are prepared to sacrifice
    Did you learn that line in the Kremlin?
    If he did then they need to sharpen up their use of English, especially if they want to conquer the world.

    That's the trouble with these oligarchs. They're not very good at what they do. Hitler was a great example of a really crap general. A complete buffoon militarily, like Putin.

    I may have got the invasion completely wrong but I did say it was based on them not having much chance of winning. And so it has come to pass. A rubbish army with poor equipment led by a lunatic who doesn't know what he's doing.
    Hitler made one really big call correctly that most generals would have got wrong - the stand fast in 1941 when the USSR counter attacked at Moscow. Almost certainly avoided a catastrophe for the German army.
    Happily for the rest of the world he then repeated this tactic for the next 4 years with disastrous consequences. For instance in Normandy it allowed the panzer divisions to be chewed up in range of the naval guns, rather than retreating inland to allow for a more strategic counter offensive.
    Yes indeed.

    Stalingrad for example was most certainly not an example of his finest hour. The annihilation of the German Sixth Army probably turned the entire war.

    Prior to that, opening up two fronts was idiocy and there were a series of other spectacular blunders, including Dunkirk of course.
    Worth mentioning that judging the likelihood of a war breaking out by the objective probability of winning is a bad methodology - the side starting a war, since the industrial revolution, has ended up losing, more often than not.
    Not taking your word on this. Naming who "started" a war is itself often contested. Sounds very dubious indeed.
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 515
    edited May 22
    dixiedean said:

    Aslan said:


    I think the left is making a mistake with PR. Before the referendum UKIP + Tories were often >52%. That would mean a much further right government.

    As a Lefty, I would have no problem with that.
    If the Tory/UKIP vote was 50% plus then they should be the government.
    I have a problem with majorities bulldozing their measures through against the wishes of 2 in 3 voters.
    Yes, this. If we're a 52:48 country with the right on the 52 side then yes, right wing parties should generally be in government. But they should have the kind of majority that 52:48 implies, which in turn means that they have to govern in a way that works for (at minimum) all of that 52, not just their core vote. (And the Tory party might prefer coalition with some more centrist party over coalition with UKIP sometimes, of course.)
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 2,697
    GaryL said:

    GaryL said:

    GaryL said:

    carnforth said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:



    You literally have no passport? You NEVER travel abroad? Really?

    17% of people don't. (In the US, it's 60%!) It's one of those things that people who have them can't imagine not having, like a TV or a bicycle, but which many people don't feel they need/ (I have a passport, but not a TV or a bike...)
    To be fair to Americans, they have a lot more geography. When your country is that big it fulfils many of the reasons Brits go abroad (i.e. for sun, or snow).

    And when they want a tropical holiday they go to Hawaii
    In addition, some of the caribbean islands do not require a passport for flights from the US.
    Neither does Mexico ,, this stuff about people in the USA being uninterested in world because don't have passport is rubbish, majority of people in UK only go abroad for weather not the culture
    Speaking for my wife and myself who have been round the world many times, visiting all the bucket shop locations, including Antarctica your comment is not supported by all the fellow travellers we have met on these journeys who have travelled not just to broaden their horizons but enjoy the culture of the places visited, and yes we have even been in the Kremlin
    Yes but people like you are the minority Most people jus want that week of sun in benidorm
    Even Benidorm has culture

    Most every holidaymaker will take in the culture of the places they visit wherever they are
    Lol you are on a windup average uk holidaymaker just wants cheap booze and English food,,,
    The most fascinating thing about these bots is the misuse of punctuation. There was another earlier this year that spammed in ellipses, this one doing the same but with commas.

    Our resident Russia expert (DA) advised us that this is not an artifact of Russian-English translation, so wonder what it is?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,453

    GaryL said:

    GaryL said:

    Aslan said:

    GaryL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    GaryL said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    So it's obvious that Scottish football is far inferior to English. The question is, why?

    It depends on what you want out of your football team. Trophies are clearly important to fans, but not the only reason to support. Teams up and down the Leagues get people paying to watch teams that never win anything, apart from ocassional division trophies, and often not many of those. It is intrinsic to the structure of both Leagues and Cups that most teams have virtually empty trophy cabinets.

    It is possible to devise a system for a League with perpetual turnover at the top. The American Football Leagues do this via a draft system, so the bottom teams get preference for the players coming up from the College system. The equivalent here would be Norwich not being relegated and having both the money and right to buy in Haarland. Interesting maybe, but is it what we want?
    That's what the Super League scummers wanted, but just for the Euroelite.
    Ironically the nfl is much more socialist than premier league Honestly can't understand the mentality of a 60 year old man supporting a team like Carlisle united
    What? I mean, big picture-wise the appropriate advice to any adult who claims to support a football team is Get a life, but how do age, sex and Carlisle come in to it?
    Just an example of an older man pointlessly wasting their time on a lost cause
    Like those sad tossers still backing Putin-style ethnonationalist kleptocracy. Western democracy is the future.
    Why are you obsessed with putin,, does he threaten your manhood with his macho ways,,
    More importantly he kills women and children and bombs hospitals

    Everyone who values freedom and democracy should vow to rid the world of this monster
    We all want that it is a question of how we arrive at this objective and how many innocent Ukrainians we are prepared to sacrifice
    Ask the democratically elected Ukrainian government - it’s their sacrifice, by their people.
    I think they anticipate that more innocent Ukranians will die if they surrender than if they fight.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 46,938
    HYUFD said:

    Sir Gavin Williamson lauded as a hero in Somaliland after championing the de facto state's independence

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sir-gavin-williamson-reborn-as-somaliland-independence-hero-2dhn5n50w

    Until he posts from there on pb.com, he's nothing.....
  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 752
    edited May 22
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    By the way, if NZ is any guide, any move to PR will lead to various breakaway attempts by assorted gadflies and nutters, and a certain period of instability.

    Over time though we could expect there to be five main parties represented (and assorted nationalists), to wit: Con, Lab, LD, Green and Reform.

    Lab would alternate between Lab/Green and Lab/LD coalitions.

    Con would alternate between Con/Ref and Con/LD coalitions.

    One confounding factor is the SNP and their ability to hold Westminster to random for repeated Indy refs. This needs to be sorted one way or another before PR can really be “safe”.

    You can make exactly the same argument about the LDs or indeed any other third//fourth party. I'm sure the LDs will seek to reverse Brexit and have another referendum, for instance, and as for Ref .... So that argument is moot - it's part and parcel of such a voting system.
    The difference is, third parties in most polities don’t seek to dissolve the actual state.

    It would be daft for Westminster to put itself in a position which strengthened those who literally wish its end.
    You're confusing anarchists and autonomists.
    No, I’m not.

    I simply note that the SNP’s chief policy is to break up the UK.

    If you are “the UK”, you’d want to avoid that.
    That's to split the state - not dissolve it. Dissolve the union of 1707, yes. But that's a different thing.
    Ignorance is breathtaking.
    I didn't know you and I were total anarchists, not to mention subversives.*

    *NB. This is a sarcastic reply, for the benefit of anyone who doesn't know the difference between an independista and an anarcista.
    I’m afraid you’re talking garbage.

    Scottish independence means the end of the UK. Continue to make the case for independence, if you like, but don’t pretend that’s not the case.
    That's an intensely Britnat attitude, or could be taken as one - that the state is the borders of 1707, sorry 1800, sorry 1922, sorry 1956 ...

    Also, I don't recall (genuinely) if you were here for 2014 and the run up, but the Unionist attitude was emphatically that the UK would continue even if Scotland was independent.
    It was indeed.

    ‘How dare you Nats suggest that the UK would not continue? The departure of you oat munching benefit junkies would be but a flesh wound.’
    Indeed. Gardenwalker is at serious risk of becoming an unperson. I did try to warn him ...
    Wasn't the attitude more that there would be a successor state to the UK (which would get the pound, UN Security Council seat etc...), rather than the UK per se continuing? Just as the Russian Federation was (well outside Ukraine, ironically) recognised as the successor state to the USSR.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,347
    kle4 said:

    Zahawi looking very tetchy being questioned about Sue Gray earlier. Not itself indicative of a lie, but it is not generally a good sign when politicians fall back on expressing annoyance at facing questions they don't like (and which they are answering 'I don't know, but it's not relevant' to, rather than irritated because the interviewer won't accept an answer).

    To be fair when I say “I don’t know” and someone asks the same question again several times I get annoyed too!
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,347

    GaryL said:

    GaryL said:

    carnforth said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:



    You literally have no passport? You NEVER travel abroad? Really?

    17% of people don't. (In the US, it's 60%!) It's one of those things that people who have them can't imagine not having, like a TV or a bicycle, but which many people don't feel they need/ (I have a passport, but not a TV or a bike...)
    To be fair to Americans, they have a lot more geography. When your country is that big it fulfils many of the reasons Brits go abroad (i.e. for sun, or snow).

    And when they want a tropical holiday they go to Hawaii
    In addition, some of the caribbean islands do not require a passport for flights from the US.
    Neither does Mexico ,, this stuff about people in the USA being uninterested in world because don't have passport is rubbish, majority of people in UK only go abroad for weather not the culture
    Speaking for my wife and myself who have been round the world many times, visiting all the bucket shop locations, including Antarctica your comment is not supported by all the fellow travellers we have met on these journeys who have travelled not just to broaden their horizons but enjoy the culture of the places visited, and yes we have even been in the Kremlin
    Yes but people like you are the minority Most people jus want that week of sun in benidorm
    Even Benidorm has culture

    Most every holidaymaker will take in the culture of the places they visit wherever they are
    Old joke:

    What the difference between Australia Benidorm and a pot of yoghurt?

    Yoghurt has a culture…
  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 752
    edited May 22

    dixiedean said:

    So close, but what an amazing season anyway. Credit to Man City, deserved Champions, though Liverpool would have deserved it too, any club that gets over 90 points ought to be Champions.

    The Premier League is incredible, isn't it? Well done City.

    But it's FPTP.
    Aslan said:

    The LibDems want STV? Jesus wept.

    "A new dawn has broken, but we are still bloody counting!"

    I think the left is making a mistake with PR. Before the referendum UKIP + Tories were often >52%. That would mean a much further right government.
    As a Lefty, I would have no problem with that.
    If the Tory/UKIP vote was 50% plus then they should be the government.
    I have a problem with majorities bulldozing their measures through against the wishes of 2 in 3 voters.
    And yes. That includes 2005. The most egregious of the lot.
    Yes. If we'd had PR, and Blair had been turfed out of office after GE2005, I think that would have been pretty good for British politics following Iraq.

    Instead FPTP kept Blair in place.
    I'm presuming that Blair getting kicked out in 2005 would be because it would be Charlie Kennedy's price for a Lab-Lib coalition, rather than because he had desire to install Michael Howard as PM instead?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,109

    dixiedean said:

    So close, but what an amazing season anyway. Credit to Man City, deserved Champions, though Liverpool would have deserved it too, any club that gets over 90 points ought to be Champions.

    The Premier League is incredible, isn't it? Well done City.

    But it's FPTP.
    Aslan said:

    The LibDems want STV? Jesus wept.

    "A new dawn has broken, but we are still bloody counting!"

    I think the left is making a mistake with PR. Before the referendum UKIP + Tories were often >52%. That would mean a much further right government.
    As a Lefty, I would have no problem with that.
    If the Tory/UKIP vote was 50% plus then they should be the government.
    I have a problem with majorities bulldozing their measures through against the wishes of 2 in 3 voters.
    And yes. That includes 2005. The most egregious of the lot.
    Yes. If we'd had PR, and Blair had been turfed out of office after GE2005, I think that would have been pretty good for British politics following Iraq.

    Instead FPTP kept Blair in place.
    I think STV/PR can either disrupt a cosy consensus or the tyranny of a majority, as it allows new views/opinions to be reflected much earlier; however, it's perfectly possible for the political establishment to try and "lock" fringe parties out of power for a long time, if ultimately to their chagrin.

    The Swedish Democrats are one such example, as are Sinn Fein in Eire.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 42,597
    dixiedean said:

    So close, but what an amazing season anyway. Credit to Man City, deserved Champions, though Liverpool would have deserved it too, any club that gets over 90 points ought to be Champions.

    The Premier League is incredible, isn't it? Well done City.

    But it's FPTP.
    Aslan said:

    The LibDems want STV? Jesus wept.

    "A new dawn has broken, but we are still bloody counting!"

    I think the left is making a mistake with PR. Before the referendum UKIP + Tories were often >52%. That would mean a much further right government.
    As a Lefty, I would have no problem with that.
    If the Tory/UKIP vote was 50% plus then they should be the government.
    I have a problem with majorities bulldozing their measures through against the wishes of 2 in 3 voters.
    And yes. That includes 2005. The most egregious of the lot.
    In 2019, the Left got more than 50%.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,334
    HYUFD said:

    Tiverton and Honiton Conservatives pick Helen Hurford as their candidate for the by election. A local, she was born in Tiverton and has been a headteacher and run a Honiton based business

    https://twitter.com/simonjamesjupp/status/1528436681879191556?s=20&t=bPTuvAnBFkHb8EHZOaR0qg

    Was the academy primary school where she was Head for a couple of years the Honiton based business, young HY?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,347
    Heathener said:

    By the way, and this might be one for @Leon to get his teeth into, in case this hasn't been posited before:

    Anyone think the Hepatitis and Monkeypox outbreaks could be the work of Putin?

    Or has this been suggested a zillion times in my frequent absences?

    No. And No.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    GaryL said:

    Farooq said:

    GaryL said:

    Aslan said:

    GaryL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    GaryL said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    So it's obvious that Scottish football is far inferior to English. The question is, why?

    It depends on what you want out of your football team. Trophies are clearly important to fans, but not the only reason to support. Teams up and down the Leagues get people paying to watch teams that never win anything, apart from ocassional division trophies, and often not many of those. It is intrinsic to the structure of both Leagues and Cups that most teams have virtually empty trophy cabinets.

    It is possible to devise a system for a League with perpetual turnover at the top. The American Football Leagues do this via a draft system, so the bottom teams get preference for the players coming up from the College system. The equivalent here would be Norwich not being relegated and having both the money and right to buy in Haarland. Interesting maybe, but is it what we want?
    That's what the Super League scummers wanted, but just for the Euroelite.
    Ironically the nfl is much more socialist than premier league Honestly can't understand the mentality of a 60 year old man supporting a team like Carlisle united
    What? I mean, big picture-wise the appropriate advice to any adult who claims to support a football team is Get a life, but how do age, sex and Carlisle come in to it?
    Just an example of an older man pointlessly wasting their time on a lost cause
    Like those sad tossers still backing Putin-style ethnonationalist kleptocracy. Western democracy is the future.
    Why are you obsessed with putin,, does he threaten your manhood with his macho ways,,
    Gee I wonder why an anti-semitic genocidal dictator waging war on several countries, murdering people on the streets of UK, and threatening our allies occupies our attention? A riddle indeed.
    I'm hearing another hardliner is running things in the Kremlin now and Putin has stepped back from many of his duties
    You are not very good at this
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,109
    dixiedean said:

    So close, but what an amazing season anyway. Credit to Man City, deserved Champions, though Liverpool would have deserved it too, any club that gets over 90 points ought to be Champions.

    The Premier League is incredible, isn't it? Well done City.

    But it's FPTP.
    Aslan said:

    The LibDems want STV? Jesus wept.

    "A new dawn has broken, but we are still bloody counting!"

    I think the left is making a mistake with PR. Before the referendum UKIP + Tories were often >52%. That would mean a much further right government.
    As a Lefty, I would have no problem with that.
    If the Tory/UKIP vote was 50% plus then they should be the government.
    I have a problem with majorities bulldozing their measures through against the wishes of 2 in 3 voters.
    And yes. That includes 2005. The most egregious of the lot.
    But, it means Brexit would probably have happened regardless. I don't think you can 'game' any political point of view out of the system by making elections more proportional.

    You can by gerrymandering.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 24,297
    edited May 22
    To be clear. I am in favour of the government being supported by 50 %+ 1 of the voters in contrast to the alternative
    This applies to 'Con/UKIP.. And Blair/Kennedy opposed to Howard.
    And yes. BoJo struggles to leap that bar.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 2,551
    Is Sue Gray going to say anything in her report that is going to cause Johnson problems .

    How can you be expected to write something that could be deeply critical of your boss . The whole charade is being trailed as an independent enquiry which is laughable .

    What other line of work has an underling being tasked with this type of process ?

    I expect a whitewash with those around Johnson being the sacrificial lambs.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,347
    ClippP said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tiverton and Honiton Conservatives pick Helen Hurford as their candidate for the by election. A local, she was born in Tiverton and has been a headteacher and run a Honiton based business

    https://twitter.com/simonjamesjupp/status/1528436681879191556?s=20&t=bPTuvAnBFkHb8EHZOaR0qg

    Was the academy primary school where she was Head for a couple of years the Honiton based business, young HY?
    Not according to the linked tweet

    She *was* headmistress
    She *is* now a businesswoman
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,654
    nico679 said:

    Is Sue Gray going to say anything in her report that is going to cause Johnson problems .

    How can you be expected to write something that could be deeply critical of your boss . The whole charade is being trailed as an independent enquiry which is laughable .

    What other line of work has an underling being tasked with this type of process ?

    I expect a whitewash with those around Johnson being the sacrificial lambs.

    To be fair - if the report is bad and the conduct terrible- you’d have to imagine Johnsons own judgement comes into it. Being that it’s, you know, his own house
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,493

    GaryL said:

    GaryL said:

    Aslan said:

    GaryL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    GaryL said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    So it's obvious that Scottish football is far inferior to English. The question is, why?

    It depends on what you want out of your football team. Trophies are clearly important to fans, but not the only reason to support. Teams up and down the Leagues get people paying to watch teams that never win anything, apart from ocassional division trophies, and often not many of those. It is intrinsic to the structure of both Leagues and Cups that most teams have virtually empty trophy cabinets.

    It is possible to devise a system for a League with perpetual turnover at the top. The American Football Leagues do this via a draft system, so the bottom teams get preference for the players coming up from the College system. The equivalent here would be Norwich not being relegated and having both the money and right to buy in Haarland. Interesting maybe, but is it what we want?
    That's what the Super League scummers wanted, but just for the Euroelite.
    Ironically the nfl is much more socialist than premier league Honestly can't understand the mentality of a 60 year old man supporting a team like Carlisle united
    What? I mean, big picture-wise the appropriate advice to any adult who claims to support a football team is Get a life, but how do age, sex and Carlisle come in to it?
    Just an example of an older man pointlessly wasting their time on a lost cause
    Like those sad tossers still backing Putin-style ethnonationalist kleptocracy. Western democracy is the future.
    Why are you obsessed with putin,, does he threaten your manhood with his macho ways,,
    More importantly he kills women and children and bombs hospitals

    Everyone who values freedom and democracy should vow to rid the world of this monster
    We all want that it is a question of how we arrive at this objective and how many innocent Ukrainians we are prepared to sacrifice
    Ask the democratically elected Ukrainian government - it’s their sacrifice, by their people.
    It seems quaint to think that it's still their choice. The US has $40bn of aid on order, I don't see Uncle Joe being very happy to ask for a refund.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,093
    ClippP said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tiverton and Honiton Conservatives pick Helen Hurford as their candidate for the by election. A local, she was born in Tiverton and has been a headteacher and run a Honiton based business

    https://twitter.com/simonjamesjupp/status/1528436681879191556?s=20&t=bPTuvAnBFkHb8EHZOaR0qg

    Was the academy primary school where she was Head for a couple of years the Honiton based business, young HY?
    She's entitled to her 15mins of fame. But come the 24th June it's back to the day job me thinks.

  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 7,109
    Looks like Rory McIlroy was a couple of birdies short of a serious challenge. Not a bad suggestion of mine at 100/1 though.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 7,640

    dixiedean said:

    So close, but what an amazing season anyway. Credit to Man City, deserved Champions, though Liverpool would have deserved it too, any club that gets over 90 points ought to be Champions.

    The Premier League is incredible, isn't it? Well done City.

    But it's FPTP.
    Aslan said:

    The LibDems want STV? Jesus wept.

    "A new dawn has broken, but we are still bloody counting!"

    I think the left is making a mistake with PR. Before the referendum UKIP + Tories were often >52%. That would mean a much further right government.
    As a Lefty, I would have no problem with that.
    If the Tory/UKIP vote was 50% plus then they should be the government.
    I have a problem with majorities bulldozing their measures through against the wishes of 2 in 3 voters.
    And yes. That includes 2005. The most egregious of the lot.
    But, it means Brexit would probably have happened regardless. I don't think you can 'game' any political point of view out of the system by making elections more proportional.

    You can by gerrymandering.
    I'm not clear why Brexit just entered the conversation
This discussion has been closed.