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Something to ponder – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,162
edited June 2022 in General
Something to ponder – politicalbetting.com

Why the Tories have more to fear from a Starmer-led coalition than an outright Labour victory https://t.co/MDuUTk5605

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,631
    Test.
  • northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,639
    We can but hope.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,695
    it would take the parties a while to get used to new voting systems. Look at Scottish council elections, where Scottish Labour are still tying themselves into knots about whether or not to allow coalitions, despite over a decade of an electoral system that practically guarantees their necessity.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    Interesting but assumes the public, who would surely need to be consulted, would vote for PR of some sort. They didn’t last time.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    I’m not convinced the British public would vote in favour of STV at Westminster given the choice.

    And no way would Starmer impose it.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    STV is an odd system; it’s strange that Labor wins a majority in Australia with only 30% of first voice votes.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited May 2022
    Once again I’d encourage people to look at the “MMP” system used in NZ.

    After around 10 years of instability after moving from FPP, it works very well I think.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    This is wrong, because 2011. There's a kind of ratchet effect with ghastly referendums whereby once you've had one about something you can't then revert to HMG making decisions on behalf of the proles on that issue. Therwilloftherpeople must be determined, and we are straight back to a Tory pro-no campaign on the tried and tested lines of Anyone who votes yes hates sick children and wants them to die.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,246

    I’m not convinced the British public would vote in favour of STV at Westminster given the choice.

    And no way would Starmer impose it.

    Doubt if the LibDems would demand a referendum next time.
  • Labour trying to gerrymander voting systems to lock out the Tories doesn't exactly have a shining record of success, does it?

    Utterly off topic but does anyone know if you can have Picture In Picture for multiple football matches on Sky Q? I want to be able to watch the Liverpool game but also have the Villa/City game on too. Could steam the latter on my Laptop, but any good way to get PIP working instead?

    If you scroll through the TV guide on the screen you can get an image of channels sometimes but then you have the rest of the bar popping up too, not sure if there's a way to just get the picture and nothing else?
  • northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,639

    We can but hope.

    To qualify this, I don’t want to lock the Tories out but I would like to see the back of FPTP. I’d like to see more coalitions, more messy, difficult compromises that have to be made, rather then elected dictatorships. Particularly when mass membership of political parties has gone and the rump memberships are often swivel-eyed oddball nutters full of blind ideological zeal. I include myself in that dig.
  • STV is a poor electoral system that scraps constituency links that work well at the minute and ratchets power away from smaller locations getting their own representative and towards larger cities or regions having them instead.

    Right now, if you want to know eg the MP for Newcastle Under Lyme then you can know who that is. STV that link would be lost and there wouldn't be an MP for Newcastle under Lyme, there'd be another MP for Stoke on Trent instead.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    I’m not convinced the British public would vote in favour of STV at Westminster given the choice.

    And no way would Starmer impose it.

    Doubt if the LibDems would demand a referendum next time.
    Therpeople would.
  • I’m not convinced the British public would vote in favour of STV at Westminster given the choice.

    And no way would Starmer impose it.

    Doubt if the LibDems would demand a referendum next time.
    "We know the public rejected electoral reform last time we asked them the question, so don't bother asking them again in case they give the wrong answer again?"

    Sounds about right.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,915
    Starmer has shown that he'll say whatever he needs to to get into the Shadow Cabinet and to become LotO. I'm sure he'd say whatever he needed to to become PM. So he's certainly coalitionable. God knows what he'd actually try to do as PM.
  • gettingbettergettingbetter Posts: 552

    STV is an odd system; it’s strange that Labor wins a majority in Australia with only 30% of first voice votes.

    But the system they use for Australian MPs is, I think, what we call the alternative vote, not STV.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,291

    STV is an odd system; it’s strange that Labor wins a majority in Australia with only 30% of first voice votes.

    But the system they use for Australian MPs is, I think, what we call the alternative vote, not STV.
    AV for the House of Representatives and STV for the Senate.
  • STV is an odd system; it’s strange that Labor wins a majority in Australia with only 30% of first voice votes.

    But the system they use for Australian MPs is, I think, what we call the alternative vote, not STV.
    It's STV with single member constituencies, so keeping the link to constituencies like my example of Newcastle under Lyme instead of subsuming them within bigger locations like Stoke that already have their own representation.

    If you're going to insist upon STV it's the best version of it.
  • alednamalednam Posts: 186
    It seems to me that Labour is bound to have a manifesto saying that they'll explore constitutional changes incl. the electoral system. In the course of campaigning, they surely have to make plain not only how bad governance of the country has been with a PM devoid of standards and a massive Commons majority, but also how our "system" has allowed it to be so bad.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    The answer to this is -- careful what you pray for.

    The LibDems think this will help them.

    Their experience in both Scotland & Wales strongly suggests otherwise.
  • STV is a poor electoral system that scraps constituency links that work well at the minute and ratchets power away from smaller locations getting their own representative and towards larger cities or regions having them instead.

    Right now, if you want to know eg the MP for Newcastle Under Lyme then you can know who that is. STV that link would be lost and there wouldn't be an MP for Newcastle under Lyme, there'd be another MP for Stoke on Trent instead.

    I would support STV for local elections in England at least in urban areas where there are already 3 member wards but not at the national level. It is true that it is somewhat biased against the Tories though if you look at the local election results in Edinburgh in particular where SNP, Labour, Greens and LDs are more transfer friendly.

    There is also the issue that STV is only really a semi proportional system particularly with only 3/4 member constituencies (as mainly used in Scotland)compared with 5 member seats in NI.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    edited May 2022

    I’m not convinced the British public would vote in favour of STV at Westminster given the choice.

    And no way would Starmer impose it.

    Doubt if the LibDems would demand a referendum next time.
    "We know the public rejected electoral reform last time we asked them the question, so don't bother asking them again in case they give the wrong answer again?"

    Sounds about right.
    By just over 2 to 1. None of your 52/48 stuff here.

    That about wraps it up for Forsyth. Silly person.

    ETA only hint of a way round this would be electoral reform in the Lab manifesto, and why would they do that?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401

    STV is an odd system; it’s strange that Labor wins a majority in Australia with only 30% of first voice votes.

    But the system they use for Australian MPs is, I think, what we call the alternative vote, not STV.
    It's STV with single member constituencies, so keeping the link to constituencies like my example of Newcastle under Lyme instead of subsuming them within bigger locations like Stoke that already have their own representation.

    If you're going to insist upon STV it's the best version of it.
    To take your argument and run with it. Why Newcastle-under-Lyme?
    Why shouldn't we want to know the MP for Knutton or Chesterton? Instead of subsuming them within bigger locations? Indeed, why not an MP for 34 Hereford Avenue?
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    If it was put to a referendum then I don't think people would vote to get rid of FPTP.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375
    As long as the face is not that of Boris Johnson or Michael Fabricant I could live with the face of Britain being changed forever.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401

    If it was put to a referendum then I don't think people would vote to get rid of FPTP.

    They would if it was conducted by STV.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375

    If it was put to a referendum then I don't think people would vote to get rid of FPTP.

    It was, and they didn't. Which is why nobody will put it to a referendum if they want a change.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,631
    Not going to lie but Verstappen's DRS issues may well be the sporting highlight of 2022 for me.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375

    Not going to lie but Verstappen's DRS issues may well be the sporting highlight of 2022 for me.

    I'm just amazed that Hamilton had a racing incident with somebody *other* than Verstappen.

    Although Verstappen is trying his best to crash into Russell.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    ydoethur said:

    If it was put to a referendum then I don't think people would vote to get rid of FPTP.

    It was, and they didn't. Which is why nobody will put it to a referendum if they want a change.
    Art of the possible innit, and just making the same change as was rejected in 2011 isn't possible

    You wanna approach it via HoL reform. Sack the current bunch of Lebedevs, new Houe elected by STV, ooh look that works so well we will generalise it to HoC next time round.
  • Yes I think people are making some dodgy assumptions about a hung parliament TBH. If Labour (English MPs) are forced to work with the LDs (and SNP) they could become more liberal on stuff like drug reform.

    The idea that a hung parliament where the SNP has the 'balance of power' and is forced to prop up Lab and LDs is good for the SNP as opposed to throwing mud at a Lab-LD or Lab majority gvt from opposition is also dubious IMO.
  • dixiedean said:

    STV is an odd system; it’s strange that Labor wins a majority in Australia with only 30% of first voice votes.

    But the system they use for Australian MPs is, I think, what we call the alternative vote, not STV.
    It's STV with single member constituencies, so keeping the link to constituencies like my example of Newcastle under Lyme instead of subsuming them within bigger locations like Stoke that already have their own representation.

    If you're going to insist upon STV it's the best version of it.
    To take your argument and run with it. Why Newcastle-under-Lyme?
    Why shouldn't we want to know the MP for Knutton or Chesterton? Instead of subsuming them within bigger locations? Indeed, why not an MP for 34 Hereford Avenue?
    Liberalism ought to mean that as much as possible absolutely the residents of 34 Hereford Avenue determine their livelihood themselves without others decreeing what they do and how they live.

    So while you might be mocking, actually yes everything that can be determined at an individual or household level absolutely should be!

    However politics means that we need MPs for issues that individuals can't resolve and having those MPs be elected in single member constituencies and not rotten boroughs or multimember constituencies maximises the level of granularity to ensure local areas each get their own say.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375
    Ooops.

    Suddenly Verstappen favourite to win unless he bins it again.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    ydoethur said:

    As long as the face is not that of Boris Johnson or Michael Fabricant I could live with the face of Britain being changed forever.

    I'd like to change both those faces with a 4lb lump hammer.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    Not going to lie but Verstappen's DRS issues may well be the sporting highlight of 2022 for me.

    Classic whinging from the Red Bull pits.

    And all of a sudden…
    Ferrari.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,631
    Nigelb said:

    Not going to lie but Verstappen's DRS issues may well be the sporting highlight of 2022 for me.

    Classic whinging from the Red Bull pits.

    And all of a sudden…
    Ferrari.
    FFS.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375
    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    As long as the face is not that of Boris Johnson or Michael Fabricant I could live with the face of Britain being changed forever.

    I'd like to change both those faces with a 4lb lump hammer.
    Why? What did your 4lb lump hammer do to upset you?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    It is with a moody sense of Nordic regret that I am forced to report that, belatedly, the Danes are also getting fat
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375

    Nigelb said:

    Not going to lie but Verstappen's DRS issues may well be the sporting highlight of 2022 for me.

    Classic whinging from the Red Bull pits.

    And all of a sudden…
    Ferrari.
    FFS.
    can we all agree that it would be incredibly funny if somehow Bottas could win this?
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679
    IshmaelZ said:

    I’m not convinced the British public would vote in favour of STV at Westminster given the choice.

    And no way would Starmer impose it.

    Doubt if the LibDems would demand a referendum next time.
    "We know the public rejected electoral reform last time we asked them the question, so don't bother asking them again in case they give the wrong answer again?"

    Sounds about right.
    By just over 2 to 1. None of your 52/48 stuff here.

    That about wraps it up for Forsyth. Silly person.

    ETA only hint of a way round this would be electoral reform in the Lab manifesto, and why would they do that?
    Sounds like Forsyth is just resurrecting old bogeymen to provide Boris with some sort of selling point.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Not going to lie but Verstappen's DRS issues may well be the sporting highlight of 2022 for me.

    Classic whinging from the Red Bull pits.

    And all of a sudden…
    Ferrari.
    FFS.
    can we all agree that it would be incredibly funny if somehow Bottas could win this?
    No.
    I have some cash on Perez at nice odds.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    I’m not convinced the British public would vote in favour of STV at Westminster given the choice.

    And no way would Starmer impose it.

    Doubt if the LibDems would demand a referendum next time.
    "We know the public rejected electoral reform last time we asked them the question, so don't bother asking them again in case they give the wrong answer again?"

    Sounds about right.
    By just over 2 to 1. None of your 52/48 stuff here.

    That about wraps it up for Forsyth. Silly person.

    ETA only hint of a way round this would be electoral reform in the Lab manifesto, and why would they do that?
    Sounds like Forsyth is just resurrecting old bogeymen to provide Boris with some sort of selling point.
    His subsidiary point about reducing voting age to 16 may be his better one, actually.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Not going to lie but Verstappen's DRS issues may well be the sporting highlight of 2022 for me.

    Classic whinging from the Red Bull pits.

    And all of a sudden…
    Ferrari.
    FFS.
    can we all agree that it would be incredibly funny if somehow Bottas could win this?
    No.
    I have some cash on Perez at nice odds.
    You must be happy at this moment!

    I could live with Perez winning too, but Bottas would be funnier.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    How do people 'relate to their MP' in countries like RoI?

    In my experience thee are two reasons for contacting an MP.
    1. To, deal with some problem which is governmental in nature, or relates to relationship with a government authority or
    2. To complain about, or urges changes to, some aspect of government policy.

    In the first instance, under the present system one may well get a helpful answer, unless it turns out there is a 'political' dimension.
    In the second, one will, eventually, get a polite reply thanking the poster if the MP is 'supportive' of the policy, or noting it if the MP is opposed.

    How is that affected if the area if bigger, and MP's are of different parties? For the better, I would have thought.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,783
    I have to admit that despite being relatively politically engaged - I have absolutely zero memory of the 2011 referendum. Don't remember any campaigns, don't remember voting in it, don't remember any announcement about the result.

    I'm beginning to think this is an elaborate hoax.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355

    STV is a poor electoral system that scraps constituency links that work well at the minute and ratchets power away from smaller locations getting their own representative and towards larger cities or regions having them instead.

    Right now, if you want to know eg the MP for Newcastle Under Lyme then you can know who that is. STV that link would be lost and there wouldn't be an MP for Newcastle under Lyme, there'd be another MP for Stoke on Trent instead.

    STV is the system used in Ireland and it's hard to argue that it breaks the link between small locations and their representatives.

    If anything it has had the opposite effect, making it easier for Independents to prosper. There have been quite a lot of Irish politicians who have managed to be re-elected after being thrown out of their party, and that's because of STV - we saw how brutal FPTP is to politicians who lose the party rosette at GE2019.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Not going to lie but Verstappen's DRS issues may well be the sporting highlight of 2022 for me.

    Classic whinging from the Red Bull pits.

    And all of a sudden…
    Ferrari.
    FFS.
    can we all agree that it would be incredibly funny if somehow Bottas could win this?
    No.
    I have some cash on Perez at nice odds.
    You must be happy at this moment!

    I could live with Perez winning too, but Bottas would be funnier.
    Partially cashed out now, as I don’t trust Red Bull not to shaft him.
  • STV is a poor electoral system that scraps constituency links that work well at the minute and ratchets power away from smaller locations getting their own representative and towards larger cities or regions having them instead.

    Right now, if you want to know eg the MP for Newcastle Under Lyme then you can know who that is. STV that link would be lost and there wouldn't be an MP for Newcastle under Lyme, there'd be another MP for Stoke on Trent instead.

    STV is the system used in Ireland and it's hard to argue that it breaks the link between small locations and their representatives.

    If anything it has had the opposite effect, making it easier for Independents to prosper. There have been quite a lot of Irish politicians who have managed to be re-elected after being thrown out of their party, and that's because of STV - we saw how brutal FPTP is to politicians who lose the party rosette at GE2019.
    Ireland has less than a 5 million population but has 160 representatives in its Dail.

    Scale that up to the UK population you'd need about 2200 MPs in the Commons.

    2200 MPs in the Commons would have more granularity still with single member constituencies but realistically we aren't going to have that many, are we?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Not going to lie but Verstappen's DRS issues may well be the sporting highlight of 2022 for me.

    Classic whinging from the Red Bull pits.

    And all of a sudden…
    Ferrari.
    FFS.
    can we all agree that it would be incredibly funny if somehow Bottas could win this?
    No.
    I have some cash on Perez at nice odds.
    You must be happy at this moment!

    I could live with Perez winning too, but Bottas would be funnier.
    Partially cashed out now, as I don’t trust Red Bull not to shaft him.
    In Spain? That would be very brave of them.

    But I don't expect him to win unless Vercrash'em messes up again.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    ohnotnow said:

    I have to admit that despite being relatively politically engaged - I have absolutely zero memory of the 2011 referendum. Don't remember any campaigns, don't remember voting in it, don't remember any announcement about the result.

    I'm beginning to think this is an elaborate hoax.

    All I remember is the debate on here about it. Genuinely can't remember if I voted.

    Oh, and

    Wordle 337 2/6

    ⬜⬜🟨🟩🟩
    🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Norman, who was financial secretary to the Treasury until last September, comes out firmly in favour of the windfall tax. https://twitter.com/jesse_norman/status/1528367097868435456
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,130
    IshmaelZ said:

    You wanna approach it via HoL reform. Sack the current bunch of Lebedevs, new House elected by STV, ooh look that works so well we will generalise it to HoC next time round.

    Yes, and/or local elections. (You also get the advantage that HoL and locals rules changes aren't directly affecting the MPs who'll have to negotiate and pass any such changes...) Let that bed in and demonstrate it's not the end of the world, and then when the next generation has its chance at HoC voting reform it'll be an easier lift. Incremental change is more the UK style anyway.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355
    edited May 2022

    How do people 'relate to their MP' in countries like RoI?

    In my experience thee are two reasons for contacting an MP.
    1. To, deal with some problem which is governmental in nature, or relates to relationship with a government authority or
    2. To complain about, or urges changes to, some aspect of government policy.

    In the first instance, under the present system one may well get a helpful answer, unless it turns out there is a 'political' dimension.
    In the second, one will, eventually, get a polite reply thanking the poster if the MP is 'supportive' of the policy, or noting it if the MP is opposed.

    How is that affected if the area if bigger, and MP's are of different parties? For the better, I would have thought.

    My wife was in Kerry yesterday and they saw Michael Healy-Rae, a local independent TD, driving on the road in front of them. How did they know it was him?

    The car was plastered with his name and phone number. And he was wearing the trademark Healy-Rae flat cap.

    TDs in Ireland go to enormous efforts to cultivate local support. Where a party is attempting to win more than one seat in a constituency they will normally split it so that, to use Bart's example, one candidate will act as the champion for Newcastle-under-Lyme, and the other for Stoke. Politics is incredibly local, because that's what the voters vote for.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Scott_xP said:

    Norman, who was financial secretary to the Treasury until last September, comes out firmly in favour of the windfall tax. https://twitter.com/jesse_norman/status/1528367097868435456

    Quite right. Morton's Fork time: you tell BP You could afford 61bn to sort out Deepwater, you can afford this. You tell the others Deepwater wasn't even your problem so you are 61bn ahead of the game.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Scott_xP said:

    Norman, who was financial secretary to the Treasury until last September, comes out firmly in favour of the windfall tax. https://twitter.com/jesse_norman/status/1528367097868435456

    Well if used to reduce energy prices for the less well off, it would tend to dampen slightly inflationary wage pressures in the autumn.

    There’s a fair case for it, as it is taxing a genuine extraordinary windfall, and energy companies have themselves said it wouldn’t unduly effect their investment decisions.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679
    edited May 2022
    ohnotnow said:

    I have to admit that despite being relatively politically engaged - I have absolutely zero memory of the 2011 referendum. Don't remember any campaigns, don't remember voting in it, don't remember any announcement about the result.

    I'm beginning to think this is an elaborate hoax.

    That referendum was dominated by the fact that Nick Clegg has previously stated that AV was a load of crap. The fact that he also thought that FPTP was even more crap didn't stop the FPTP proponents using his statement as an endorsement.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,649
    This country needs a serious shake up.

    Westminster and Whitehall have not been fit for purpose for some time. Electoral reform is necessary, but insufficient to set this country up for success.
  • How do people 'relate to their MP' in countries like RoI?

    In my experience thee are two reasons for contacting an MP.
    1. To, deal with some problem which is governmental in nature, or relates to relationship with a government authority or
    2. To complain about, or urges changes to, some aspect of government policy.

    In the first instance, under the present system one may well get a helpful answer, unless it turns out there is a 'political' dimension.
    In the second, one will, eventually, get a polite reply thanking the poster if the MP is 'supportive' of the policy, or noting it if the MP is opposed.

    How is that affected if the area if bigger, and MP's are of different parties? For the better, I would have thought.

    My wife was in Kerry yesterday and they saw Michael Healy-Rae, a local independent TD, driving on the road in front of them. How did they know it was him?

    The car was plastered with his name and phone number. And he was wearing the trademark Healy-Rae flat cap.

    TDs in Ireland go to enormous efforts to cultivate local support. Where a party is attempting to win more than one seat in a constituency they will normally split it so that, to use Bart's example, one candidate will act as the champion for Newcastle-under-Lyme, and the other for Stoke. Politics is incredibly local, because that's what the voters vote for.
    Except that there's only 31k population per TD in Ireland. For small countries politics being local works.

    For large countries, it doesn't happen. There's over 100k population per MP in this country and further divorcing politics from location doesn't help that at all.

    To be like Ireland we'd need to have close to 4 times as many MPs as we do now, and I don't see anyone advocating that.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    I'm not convinced that "if we win, we'll rig the voting system" is a vote winner.
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,130


    In my experience thee are two reasons for contacting an MP.
    1. To, deal with some problem which is governmental in nature, or relates to relationship with a government authority or
    2. To complain about, or urges changes to, some aspect of government policy.
    [...]
    How is that affected if the area if bigger, and MP's are of different parties? For the better, I would have thought.

    Yes, I agree. If you're contacting your MP, sometimes you want somebody who you feel will be sympathetic to your issue and willing to make an effort on your behalf -- then being able to who you know has an interest in X or is just the more dedicated constituency MP is helpful. Or you want to try to influence some government policy -- try the MP of the party in power. Or perhaps you're just more comfortable approaching the MP of the party you voted for than that of some other party.

    The local MP can be the port of last resort for some problems, and I think that might work better if there was some choice rather than "must be this one person, nobody else".
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355

    STV is a poor electoral system that scraps constituency links that work well at the minute and ratchets power away from smaller locations getting their own representative and towards larger cities or regions having them instead.

    Right now, if you want to know eg the MP for Newcastle Under Lyme then you can know who that is. STV that link would be lost and there wouldn't be an MP for Newcastle under Lyme, there'd be another MP for Stoke on Trent instead.

    STV is the system used in Ireland and it's hard to argue that it breaks the link between small locations and their representatives.

    If anything it has had the opposite effect, making it easier for Independents to prosper. There have been quite a lot of Irish politicians who have managed to be re-elected after being thrown out of their party, and that's because of STV - we saw how brutal FPTP is to politicians who lose the party rosette at GE2019.
    Ireland has less than a 5 million population but has 160 representatives in its Dail.

    Scale that up to the UK population you'd need about 2200 MPs in the Commons.

    2200 MPs in the Commons would have more granularity still with single member constituencies but realistically we aren't going to have that many, are we?
    There are 39 Dail constituencies. Scaled up to the UK that would be 510. Thus we can see that constituencies in Ireland cover more people each than constituencies in the UK, and yet politics in Ireland is more local than in the UK.

    Your hypothesis is contradicted by observation.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355

    How do people 'relate to their MP' in countries like RoI?

    In my experience thee are two reasons for contacting an MP.
    1. To, deal with some problem which is governmental in nature, or relates to relationship with a government authority or
    2. To complain about, or urges changes to, some aspect of government policy.

    In the first instance, under the present system one may well get a helpful answer, unless it turns out there is a 'political' dimension.
    In the second, one will, eventually, get a polite reply thanking the poster if the MP is 'supportive' of the policy, or noting it if the MP is opposed.

    How is that affected if the area if bigger, and MP's are of different parties? For the better, I would have thought.

    My wife was in Kerry yesterday and they saw Michael Healy-Rae, a local independent TD, driving on the road in front of them. How did they know it was him?

    The car was plastered with his name and phone number. And he was wearing the trademark Healy-Rae flat cap.

    TDs in Ireland go to enormous efforts to cultivate local support. Where a party is attempting to win more than one seat in a constituency they will normally split it so that, to use Bart's example, one candidate will act as the champion for Newcastle-under-Lyme, and the other for Stoke. Politics is incredibly local, because that's what the voters vote for.
    Except that there's only 31k population per TD in Ireland. For small countries politics being local works.

    For large countries, it doesn't happen. There's over 100k population per MP in this country and further divorcing politics from location doesn't help that at all.

    To be like Ireland we'd need to have close to 4 times as many MPs as we do now, and I don't see anyone advocating that.
    So you are now saying that it's the total number of MPs that we have that determines how local politics is and not the size of the constituencies?

    Ireland shows that multi-member constituencies don't stop politics from being local.
  • STV is a poor electoral system that scraps constituency links that work well at the minute and ratchets power away from smaller locations getting their own representative and towards larger cities or regions having them instead.

    Right now, if you want to know eg the MP for Newcastle Under Lyme then you can know who that is. STV that link would be lost and there wouldn't be an MP for Newcastle under Lyme, there'd be another MP for Stoke on Trent instead.

    STV is the system used in Ireland and it's hard to argue that it breaks the link between small locations and their representatives.

    If anything it has had the opposite effect, making it easier for Independents to prosper. There have been quite a lot of Irish politicians who have managed to be re-elected after being thrown out of their party, and that's because of STV - we saw how brutal FPTP is to politicians who lose the party rosette at GE2019.
    Ireland has less than a 5 million population but has 160 representatives in its Dail.

    Scale that up to the UK population you'd need about 2200 MPs in the Commons.

    2200 MPs in the Commons would have more granularity still with single member constituencies but realistically we aren't going to have that many, are we?
    There are 39 Dail constituencies. Scaled up to the UK that would be 510. Thus we can see that constituencies in Ireland cover more people each than constituencies in the UK, and yet politics in Ireland is more local than in the UK.

    Your hypothesis is contradicted by observation.
    It isn't, you're making false comparisons.

    There's only one MP per constituency in this country.

    Try having 2200 single member FPTP constituencies for a like-for-like comparison and see how "local" FPTP gets.

    Or consider the UK having just 130 five member constituencies and then it'd be a like for like comparison.

    Any advantages Ireland has from being small is because Ireland is small, not because of their voting system. We are never going to be able to have their granularity without thousands of MPs which nobody advocates, but only having 650MPs in 130 five member constituencies isn't going to make politics more local, it'll see representation for areas currently reserved to get a representative wiped out instead.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    “You’re on a different strategy”…
    LOL.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375
    @Nigelb

    Sounds like you were right about the shafting.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,631
    Nigelb said:

    “You’re on a different strategy”…
    LOL.

    They might as rename Red Bull to Team Verstappen.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355

    STV is a poor electoral system that scraps constituency links that work well at the minute and ratchets power away from smaller locations getting their own representative and towards larger cities or regions having them instead.

    Right now, if you want to know eg the MP for Newcastle Under Lyme then you can know who that is. STV that link would be lost and there wouldn't be an MP for Newcastle under Lyme, there'd be another MP for Stoke on Trent instead.

    STV is the system used in Ireland and it's hard to argue that it breaks the link between small locations and their representatives.

    If anything it has had the opposite effect, making it easier for Independents to prosper. There have been quite a lot of Irish politicians who have managed to be re-elected after being thrown out of their party, and that's because of STV - we saw how brutal FPTP is to politicians who lose the party rosette at GE2019.
    Ireland has less than a 5 million population but has 160 representatives in its Dail.

    Scale that up to the UK population you'd need about 2200 MPs in the Commons.

    2200 MPs in the Commons would have more granularity still with single member constituencies but realistically we aren't going to have that many, are we?
    There are 39 Dail constituencies. Scaled up to the UK that would be 510. Thus we can see that constituencies in Ireland cover more people each than constituencies in the UK, and yet politics in Ireland is more local than in the UK.

    Your hypothesis is contradicted by observation.
    It isn't, you're making false comparisons.

    There's only one MP per constituency in this country.

    Try having 2200 single member FPTP constituencies for a like-for-like comparison and see how "local" FPTP gets.

    Or consider the UK having just 130 five member constituencies and then it'd be a like for like comparison.

    Any advantages Ireland has from being small is because Ireland is small, not because of their voting system. We are never going to be able to have their granularity without thousands of MPs which nobody advocates, but only having 650MPs in 130 five member constituencies isn't going to make politics more local, it'll see representation for areas currently reserved to get a representative wiped out instead.
    You said having larger constituencies would make politics less local. Ireland has larger constituencies. It's politics is more local. You are wrong.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    ydoethur said:

    @Nigelb

    Sounds like you were right about the shafting.

    Red Bull are the most cynical team on the circuit, by several laps.
    No surprise.
  • How do people 'relate to their MP' in countries like RoI?

    In my experience thee are two reasons for contacting an MP.
    1. To, deal with some problem which is governmental in nature, or relates to relationship with a government authority or
    2. To complain about, or urges changes to, some aspect of government policy.

    In the first instance, under the present system one may well get a helpful answer, unless it turns out there is a 'political' dimension.
    In the second, one will, eventually, get a polite reply thanking the poster if the MP is 'supportive' of the policy, or noting it if the MP is opposed.

    How is that affected if the area if bigger, and MP's are of different parties? For the better, I would have thought.

    My wife was in Kerry yesterday and they saw Michael Healy-Rae, a local independent TD, driving on the road in front of them. How did they know it was him?

    The car was plastered with his name and phone number. And he was wearing the trademark Healy-Rae flat cap.

    TDs in Ireland go to enormous efforts to cultivate local support. Where a party is attempting to win more than one seat in a constituency they will normally split it so that, to use Bart's example, one candidate will act as the champion for Newcastle-under-Lyme, and the other for Stoke. Politics is incredibly local, because that's what the voters vote for.
    Except that there's only 31k population per TD in Ireland. For small countries politics being local works.

    For large countries, it doesn't happen. There's over 100k population per MP in this country and further divorcing politics from location doesn't help that at all.

    To be like Ireland we'd need to have close to 4 times as many MPs as we do now, and I don't see anyone advocating that.
    So you are now saying that it's the total number of MPs that we have that determines how local politics is and not the size of the constituencies?

    Ireland shows that multi-member constituencies don't stop politics from being local.
    No, I'm saying it's both.

    More MPs per population inevitably gives more local granularity, as does smaller constituencies.

    Due to their tiny size they manage have roughly the same number of constitiencies we have when you scale it but with multiple members per constituency, we couldn't do that without quadrupling our number of MPs.

    If you want a like for like comparison you'd need to compare us with an STV nation with a comparable number of population per representative.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,971
    edited May 2022

    STV is a poor electoral system that scraps constituency links that work well at the minute and ratchets power away from smaller locations getting their own representative and towards larger cities or regions having them instead.

    Right now, if you want to know eg the MP for Newcastle Under Lyme then you can know who that is. STV that link would be lost and there wouldn't be an MP for Newcastle under Lyme, there'd be another MP for Stoke on Trent instead.

    STV is the system used in Ireland and it's hard to argue that it breaks the link between small locations and their representatives.

    If anything it has had the opposite effect, making it easier for Independents to prosper. There have been quite a lot of Irish politicians who have managed to be re-elected after being thrown out of their party, and that's because of STV - we saw how brutal FPTP is to politicians who lose the party rosette at GE2019.
    Ireland has less than a 5 million population but has 160 representatives in its Dail.

    Scale that up to the UK population you'd need about 2200 MPs in the Commons.

    2200 MPs in the Commons would have more granularity still with single member constituencies but realistically we aren't going to have that many, are we?
    There are 39 Dail constituencies. Scaled up to the UK that would be 510. Thus we can see that constituencies in Ireland cover more people each than constituencies in the UK, and yet politics in Ireland is more local than in the UK.

    Your hypothesis is contradicted by observation.
    It isn't, you're making false comparisons.

    There's only one MP per constituency in this country.

    Try having 2200 single member FPTP constituencies for a like-for-like comparison and see how "local" FPTP gets.

    Or consider the UK having just 130 five member constituencies and then it'd be a like for like comparison.

    Any advantages Ireland has from being small is because Ireland is small, not because of their voting system. We are never going to be able to have their granularity without thousands of MPs which nobody advocates, but only having 650MPs in 130 five member constituencies isn't going to make politics more local, it'll see representation for areas currently reserved to get a representative wiped out instead.
    You said having larger constituencies would make politics less local. Ireland has larger constituencies. It's politics is more local. You are wrong.
    It's constituencies are not significantly larger than in the UK. You are wrong and making false comparisons.

    Eliminate three quarters of their representatives or quadruple ours and you'd have a like for like comparison.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    edited May 2022
    Hamilton fastest lap (probably to be taken by Russell when he pits) at least slightly reduces Verstappen’s haul.

    Chance of Bottas podium still.
    Edit, gone. :smile:
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,904
    Applicant said:

    I'm not convinced that "if we win, we'll rig the voting system" is a vote winner.

    But "if we win, we'll unrig the voting system" could well be attractive.

    Time to put an end to FPTP, which is wrongly named. The present system should be called Leading Candidate Grabs Everything. It suits the Tory Party, of course.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,783

    ohnotnow said:

    I have to admit that despite being relatively politically engaged - I have absolutely zero memory of the 2011 referendum. Don't remember any campaigns, don't remember voting in it, don't remember any announcement about the result.

    I'm beginning to think this is an elaborate hoax.

    That referendum was dominated by the fact that Nick Clegg has previously stated that AV was a load of crap. The fact that he also thought that FPTP was even more crap didn't stop the FPTP proponents using his statement as an endorsement.
    Yeah - I've just been reading the wikipedia page and some of it faintly rings a bell. But it is very faint. And I still have no memory of voting in it or the results being in the news. Hey ho.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355
    I am confident that if we had an STV electoral system we would see more independents and local party MPs elected to the Commons. They would find it easier to be elected than under FPTP.

    An electoral system that would damage the local link would be something like closed list PR. But that's very different to STV. You can't just use the same arguments against all proportional systems as though they're the same.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    ClippP said:

    Applicant said:

    I'm not convinced that "if we win, we'll rig the voting system" is a vote winner.

    But "if we win, we'll unrig the voting system" could well be attractive.

    Time to put an end to FPTP, which is wrongly named. The present system should be called Leading Candidate Grabs Everything. It suits the Tory Party, of course.
    "Leading Candidate Grabs Everything" is just a synonym for "Winner Wins".
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    Voting systems, Australia.

    Obviously we need the Seventh Vote.

    Or is that all wet as an idea?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Interesting thing for Mercedes is the success of the engine upgrade.
    If they can properly sort the chassis they’re a real contender for wins this season - and with no real chance if the championship, they might try what they did last year and take penalties to get extra greasy engines.

    Could really mess with the Red Bull / Ferrari fight.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    ohnotnow said:

    ohnotnow said:

    I have to admit that despite being relatively politically engaged - I have absolutely zero memory of the 2011 referendum. Don't remember any campaigns, don't remember voting in it, don't remember any announcement about the result.

    I'm beginning to think this is an elaborate hoax.

    That referendum was dominated by the fact that Nick Clegg has previously stated that AV was a load of crap. The fact that he also thought that FPTP was even more crap didn't stop the FPTP proponents using his statement as an endorsement.
    Yeah - I've just been reading the wikipedia page and some of it faintly rings a bell. But it is very faint. And I still have no memory of voting in it or the results being in the news. Hey ho.
    It was never in doubt.

    Changing the voting system without some deeper change of the political system seems pointless at best, and probably counterproductive.

    The question advocates have to answer is "what are you trying to achieve"? In 2011, the answer was "Lib Dems want more Lib Dem MPs", and the public accordingly rejected the proposal decisively.

    I'm not sure the arguments have moved on since then.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,631
    Nigelb said:

    Interesting thing for Mercedes is the success of the engine upgrade.
    If they can properly sort the chassis they’re a real contender for wins this season - and with no real chance if the championship, they might try what they did last year and take penalties to get extra greasy engines.

    Could really mess with the Red Bull / Ferrari fight.

    Just look at the way he went past the Ferrari there.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    If labour wins most seats and try and govern with SNP support that will likely mean SNP mp's voting on england only issues to get bills through. If that happens any party that is thought might govern with snp support will lose big in england. Just as a party would in scotland who relied on votes from people where the outcome did not affect their constituents.

    I don't think labour will end up largest party. I do think they may be able to cobble together a majority if they include the snp. I think if they do it will end labour
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375

    Voting systems, Australia.

    Obviously we need the Seventh Vote.

    Or is that all wet as an idea?

    Your way or no highway?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    Nigelb said:

    Interesting thing for Mercedes is the success of the engine upgrade.
    If they can properly sort the chassis they’re a real contender for wins this season - and with no real chance if the championship, they might try what they did last year and take penalties to get extra greasy engines.

    Could really mess with the Red Bull / Ferrari fight.

    Just look at the way he went past the Ferrari there.
    ‘Greasy’ was autocorrect weirdness, though it does sound a bit like DuraAce slang.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826
    edited May 2022
    Is Rory McIlroy worth a punt for the PGA Championship at 100/1?

    If he shoots 64(-6) and he shot 65(-5) on Thursday he'd be in with a chance.

    The current leader Guillermo Mito Pereira has no major championship pedigree.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Nigelb said:

    ‘Greasy’ was autocorrect weirdness, though it does sound a bit like DuraAce slang.

    Trailer Park Boys...
  • .
    Applicant said:

    ClippP said:

    Applicant said:

    I'm not convinced that "if we win, we'll rig the voting system" is a vote winner.

    But "if we win, we'll unrig the voting system" could well be attractive.

    Time to put an end to FPTP, which is wrongly named. The present system should be called Leading Candidate Grabs Everything. It suits the Tory Party, of course.
    "Leading Candidate Grabs Everything" is just a synonym for "Winner Wins".
    Indeed it's funny how some people want to convince themselves the only reason they lose is because the system is rigged against them, rather than because they're unpopular.

    The John Cleese attitude that the only reason people aren't voting Lib Dem is they think they wont win.

    It's ironic that in the past decade there have been two major binary referendums first proposed by the Lib Dems, for which tactical voting couldn't be an issue, and they lost them both.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    Pagan2 said:

    If labour wins most seats and try and govern with SNP support that will likely mean SNP mp's voting on england only issues to get bills through. If that happens any party that is thought might govern with snp support will lose big in england. Just as a party would in scotland who relied on votes from people where the outcome did not affect their constituents.

    I don't think labour will end up largest party. I do think they may be able to cobble together a majority if they include the snp. I think if they do it will end labour

    Agreed. They would never be trusted in England again! Not sure they are trusted that much anyway!
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,971
    edited May 2022

    Voting systems, Australia.

    Obviously we need the Seventh Vote.

    Or is that all wet as an idea?

    Some people want the Ankh Morpork voting system.

    Ankh-Morpork had dallied with many forms of government and had ended up with that form of democracy known as One Man, One Vote. The Patrician was the Man; he had the Vote.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Water leak ??
    New engines not fully sorted either, by the sound of it.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871

    .

    Applicant said:

    ClippP said:

    Applicant said:

    I'm not convinced that "if we win, we'll rig the voting system" is a vote winner.

    But "if we win, we'll unrig the voting system" could well be attractive.

    Time to put an end to FPTP, which is wrongly named. The present system should be called Leading Candidate Grabs Everything. It suits the Tory Party, of course.
    "Leading Candidate Grabs Everything" is just a synonym for "Winner Wins".
    Indeed it's funny how some people want to convince themselves the only reason they lose is because the system is rigged against them, rather than because they're unpopular.

    The John Cleese attitude that the only reason people aren't voting Lib Dem is they think they wont win.

    It's ironic that in the past decade there have been two major binary referendums first proposed by the Lib Dems, for which tactical voting couldn't be an issue, and they lost them both.
    No one votes lib dem because they don't really stand for anything but just say whatever is popular locally. This used to work when people didn't communicate so widely but now people can see the lib dems are saying "no to housing" in consitutency A and "yes to more housing in constituency b" just because that is popular. Well lets just say people are catching on that the lib dems will support just about anything in a constituency to get them elected.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Scott_xP said:

    Nigelb said:

    ‘Greasy’ was autocorrect weirdness, though it does sound a bit like DuraAce slang.

    Trailer Park Boys...
    Johnson is like Ricky in some respects. Moral vacuum that babbles only partially comprehensible mendacity.

  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    .

    Applicant said:

    ClippP said:

    Applicant said:

    I'm not convinced that "if we win, we'll rig the voting system" is a vote winner.

    But "if we win, we'll unrig the voting system" could well be attractive.

    Time to put an end to FPTP, which is wrongly named. The present system should be called Leading Candidate Grabs Everything. It suits the Tory Party, of course.
    "Leading Candidate Grabs Everything" is just a synonym for "Winner Wins".
    Indeed it's funny how some people want to convince themselves the only reason they lose is because the system is rigged against them, rather than because they're unpopular.

    The John Cleese attitude that the only reason people aren't voting Lib Dem is they think they wont win.

    It's ironic that in the past decade there have been two major binary referendums first proposed by the Lib Dems, for which tactical voting couldn't be an issue, and they lost them both.
    BIB: Encouraging tactical voting surely doesn't help with this.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Nigelb said:

    ‘Greasy’ was autocorrect weirdness, though it does sound a bit like DuraAce slang.

    Trailer Park Boys...
    Johnson is like Ricky in some respects. Moral vacuum that babbles only partially comprehensible mendacity.

    And looks like he lives in his car...
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    F1: when did engines stop being called engines?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    Applicant said:

    .

    Applicant said:

    ClippP said:

    Applicant said:

    I'm not convinced that "if we win, we'll rig the voting system" is a vote winner.

    But "if we win, we'll unrig the voting system" could well be attractive.

    Time to put an end to FPTP, which is wrongly named. The present system should be called Leading Candidate Grabs Everything. It suits the Tory Party, of course.
    "Leading Candidate Grabs Everything" is just a synonym for "Winner Wins".
    Indeed it's funny how some people want to convince themselves the only reason they lose is because the system is rigged against them, rather than because they're unpopular.

    The John Cleese attitude that the only reason people aren't voting Lib Dem is they think they wont win.

    It's ironic that in the past decade there have been two major binary referendums first proposed by the Lib Dems, for which tactical voting couldn't be an issue, and they lost them both.
    BIB: Encouraging tactical voting surely doesn't help with this.
    I dont think the lib dems actually wanted an in out referendum though. Clegg just proposed it when he thought it would be popular but was no chance of happening. I suspect if cameron had turned around in the coalition years and went yeah good idea he would have been in reverse gear pretty pronto.
  • Pagan2 said:

    .

    Applicant said:

    ClippP said:

    Applicant said:

    I'm not convinced that "if we win, we'll rig the voting system" is a vote winner.

    But "if we win, we'll unrig the voting system" could well be attractive.

    Time to put an end to FPTP, which is wrongly named. The present system should be called Leading Candidate Grabs Everything. It suits the Tory Party, of course.
    "Leading Candidate Grabs Everything" is just a synonym for "Winner Wins".
    Indeed it's funny how some people want to convince themselves the only reason they lose is because the system is rigged against them, rather than because they're unpopular.

    The John Cleese attitude that the only reason people aren't voting Lib Dem is they think they wont win.

    It's ironic that in the past decade there have been two major binary referendums first proposed by the Lib Dems, for which tactical voting couldn't be an issue, and they lost them both.
    No one votes lib dem because they don't really stand for anything but just say whatever is popular locally. This used to work when people didn't communicate so widely but now people can see the lib dems are saying "no to housing" in consitutency A and "yes to more housing in constituency b" just because that is popular. Well lets just say people are catching on that the lib dems will support just about anything in a constituency to get them elected.
    Indeed. It's a shame as I'm a politically homeless liberal ex-Conserative and of all the other parties I could vote for the closest would be the Lib Dems, but their pandering to NIMBYism is a big No No to me. Drop the NIMBYism and I'd happily join the party.

    The problem with trying to be all things to all people is you can be nothing to anyone.

    They are the political equivalent of the Jack of All Trades.
  • Pagan2 said:

    Applicant said:

    .

    Applicant said:

    ClippP said:

    Applicant said:

    I'm not convinced that "if we win, we'll rig the voting system" is a vote winner.

    But "if we win, we'll unrig the voting system" could well be attractive.

    Time to put an end to FPTP, which is wrongly named. The present system should be called Leading Candidate Grabs Everything. It suits the Tory Party, of course.
    "Leading Candidate Grabs Everything" is just a synonym for "Winner Wins".
    Indeed it's funny how some people want to convince themselves the only reason they lose is because the system is rigged against them, rather than because they're unpopular.

    The John Cleese attitude that the only reason people aren't voting Lib Dem is they think they wont win.

    It's ironic that in the past decade there have been two major binary referendums first proposed by the Lib Dems, for which tactical voting couldn't be an issue, and they lost them both.
    BIB: Encouraging tactical voting surely doesn't help with this.
    I dont think the lib dems actually wanted an in out referendum though. Clegg just proposed it when he thought it would be popular but was no chance of happening. I suspect if cameron had turned around in the coalition years and went yeah good idea he would have been in reverse gear pretty pronto.
    He (Cameron) did and he (Clegg) did too.

    Clegg was horrified when Cameron adopted Clegg's policy.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Pagan2 said:

    If labour wins most seats and try and govern with SNP support that will likely mean SNP mp's voting on england only issues to get bills through. If that happens any party that is thought might govern with snp support will lose big in england. Just as a party would in scotland who relied on votes from people where the outcome did not affect their constituents.

    I don't think labour will end up largest party. I do think they may be able to cobble together a majority if they include the snp. I think if they do it will end labour

    Agreed. They would never be trusted in England again! Not sure they are trusted that much anyway!
    The SNP’s literally insane new Defence policy - hey we’re now super pro nukes! And we love that NATO nuclear umbrella! We just don’t want any nukes in Scotland let England pay for them and look after them and still protect us in Scotland!! - is going to be a fucking hard sell for the Nats, but also, I suggest, for any British party that seeks to govern with their help

    It’s an open wound and the Tories will rub shite in it to make it worse, like the Viet Cong
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    Pagan2 said:

    Applicant said:

    .

    Applicant said:

    ClippP said:

    Applicant said:

    I'm not convinced that "if we win, we'll rig the voting system" is a vote winner.

    But "if we win, we'll unrig the voting system" could well be attractive.

    Time to put an end to FPTP, which is wrongly named. The present system should be called Leading Candidate Grabs Everything. It suits the Tory Party, of course.
    "Leading Candidate Grabs Everything" is just a synonym for "Winner Wins".
    Indeed it's funny how some people want to convince themselves the only reason they lose is because the system is rigged against them, rather than because they're unpopular.

    The John Cleese attitude that the only reason people aren't voting Lib Dem is they think they wont win.

    It's ironic that in the past decade there have been two major binary referendums first proposed by the Lib Dems, for which tactical voting couldn't be an issue, and they lost them both.
    BIB: Encouraging tactical voting surely doesn't help with this.
    I dont think the lib dems actually wanted an in out referendum though. Clegg just proposed it when he thought it would be popular but was no chance of happening. I suspect if cameron had turned around in the coalition years and went yeah good idea he would have been in reverse gear pretty pronto.
    Since it's been mentioned, I'll share a comment I made 8 years ago today courtesy of Facebook "On This Day". I think the second half at least aged quite well.

    Cameron explicitly opposes "ever closer union" (i.e. a federal EU/United States of Europe). The Conservatives (mostly) want a move back more towards the common market (knowing that if the renegotiation fails outright the British people will vote OUT come the referendum).
  • MonkeysMonkeys Posts: 757
    FPTP gives the electorate certainty more often. I'd argue that the last election was the triumph of certainty over brexit over uncertainty. Maybe they like it.

    Certainly the more proportional scottish system has effectively been hacked by the electorate to give FPTP outcomes
This discussion has been closed.