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Korma chameleon, you come and go – politicalbetting.com

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  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 52,132

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    I disagree. It shows his contempt for his own laws and for those he expected to follow them. It's also an issue because it feeds in to the perception that he thinks rules are for lesser mortals, not for the Great Leader. Finally, it's an issue because it happened repeatedly, he's lied about it and blamed others to deflect attention from his own culpability.

    In Starmer's case, it will matter because he's been running with it for weeks.
    Quite right. A PM not obeying his own laws is not ok. If the law is wrong, get rid of it, don’t break it.
    If it had been a one-off, due to confusion, and he'd held his hands up and apologised, it would have been OK.

    But it isn't. And it confirms in a very public way that he's a liar and a fool who holds the rest of us in contempt.

    Downing Street thought they were above the laws they made, 'because they were working so hard and under so much stress.' Bollocks. They were under one tenth of the stress of doctors or nurses, and they kept the laws. And many times Downing Street staff were doing things that made matters worse, not better.

    And it's also not just parties. Quarantine was broken. Lockdown was ignored. No wonder Covid spread like wildfire. The whole thing shows an arrogance and a lack of common sense that is also a real political issue. Such people should not be running the country because they're clearly not fit to.
    The curious thing about some of the conversations recently.

    I'd the aim is to say that Downing Street cake equals Durham Curry, then there's a reasonable conversation to be had.

    But does anyone really think that the cake is the only incident in which Johnson is involved?

    This may bring Starmer down (in which case, who is the Harold Wilson to his Hugh Gaitskell?), but how does Johnson then survive what's incoming? Shamelessness only goes so far.

    I suspect that what CCHQ want is to weaken Starmer without destroying him. That may not be an option.
    In my best Peter Cook voice:

    'A man so incompetent he couldn't even carry out a simple bit of political mud slinging without cocking the whole thing up.'
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 46,536
    The Adder Party: 16,472 votes
    Everyone else: no votes

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-61345463
  • TazTaz Posts: 5,775
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheet hypocrisy too.
    Could Starmer have changed the law? No
    Could Boris have changed the law? Yes.

    The leader of the opposition does not carry same responsibility as the prime minister.

    PS Looking at the way Starmer operates, like many ceos personally I suspect he continued working until late through the night. Others may have gone to bed., but he probably carried on in some way.
    “Party I support - no problem, party I don’t support - problem”
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 8,227
    Stocky said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheer hypocrisy too.
    Would your view change if Johnson ends up with four or five FPNs?
    No. For me the FPN issue is Boolean. Either you have one or not.

    If you thought that what you were doing was legal, then you can get multiple FPNs after the fact from the same issue happening multiple times.

    If you don't care about breaking the law, you can get caught multiple times, just once, or never.

    One is giving the benefit of the doubt, the other isn't. But quantity is immaterial to me. I've never thought it reasonable to issue multiple FPNs for the same offence before the last FPN had been issued.

    It's weird to me how in criminal justice those with serious offences ending in imprisonment the sentence gets served concurrently, but with FPNs the opposite attitude exists. Unless the next FPN is for an offence after the prior one was served, it should be treated concurrently in my view.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 16,937
    Jonathan said:

    There's not a single thing I understand about Drakeford's appeal.

    He looks like he's escaped from Wilson's 1974 administration:


    You voted for Boris and Mogg, who looks like they escaped from a silent movie parody of the worst excesses of the British aristocracy.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVYA3oTG8fg
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 52,132
    Taz said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheet hypocrisy too.
    Could Starmer have changed the law? No
    Could Boris have changed the law? Yes.

    The leader of the opposition does not carry same responsibility as the prime minister.

    PS Looking at the way Starmer operates, like many ceos personally I suspect he continued working until late through the night. Others may have gone to bed., but he probably carried on in some way.
    “Party I support - no problem, party I don’t support - problem”
    The whole issue is about the number of parties people were supporting!
  • felixfelix Posts: 14,262
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Why should anyone apologise to Starmer - he said Boris should resign simply for being investigated - so he should already be packing his bags.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 18,793

    Jonathan said:

    There's not a single thing I understand about Drakeford's appeal.

    He looks like he's escaped from Wilson's 1974 administration:

    You voted for Boris and Mogg, who looks like they escaped from a silent movie parody of the worst excesses of the British aristocracy.
    I voted for Damian Hinds.

    Did you vote Labour in December 2019?
    I keep who I vote for to myself. Over the years, I’ve been known to do the occasional tactical manoeuvre. But if you think Boris is ok, it’s not such a huge stretch to understand that some people like Drakeford.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 8,227
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    So according to their own written records this was planned food and drink at the end of the day, with no work scheduled for afterwards?

    I can't see any difference between this and the BYOB party now to be honest.

    You can’t tell the difference between a meal and a ‘party? Breakfast must be a hoot round your place this morning.
    An hour and a half scheduled for food and drinks at the end of the day, after work has finished.

    How is that not a party, but having food at 1pm and then returning to work is?

    They held an after work party and had no intention of returning to work after their party.
    Done that plenty of times at work after a long slog at work in workshops and meetings. It’s about grabbing some sustenance and talking about the work informally before crawling into bed. Did it last week, when the boss came over from Germany. The last thing it is, is a party.
    That's not what you were saying when the conversation was about Downing Street though was it? 🤔
    Indeed, because the facts are different.
    The prime fact being that this event involved someone with a red rosette while the others involved people with a blue one?
  • TazTaz Posts: 5,775
    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Why should anyone apologise to Starmer - he said Boris should resign simply for being investigated - so he should already be packing his bags.
    Expecting consistency or principles is a lot to ask
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 18,793
    Taz said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheet hypocrisy too.
    Could Starmer have changed the law? No
    Could Boris have changed the law? Yes.

    The leader of the opposition does not carry same responsibility as the prime minister.

    PS Looking at the way Starmer operates, like many ceos personally I suspect he continued working until late through the night. Others may have gone to bed., but he probably carried on in some way.
    “Party I support - no problem, party I don’t support - problem”
    You seem to be talking about the editorial of the Daily Mail.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 8,431
    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    I disagree. It shows his contempt for his own laws and for those he expected to follow them. It's also an issue because it feeds in to the perception that he thinks rules are for lesser mortals, not for the Great Leader. Finally, it's an issue because it happened repeatedly, he's lied about it and blamed others to deflect attention from his own culpability.

    In Starmer's case, it will matter because he's been running with it for weeks.
    "It shows his contempt for his own laws and for those he expected to follow them." The government didn't expect the public to follow the laws as assiduously as proved be the case. They have said this repeatedly. The laws were to dampen the spread of the virus; they were never intended to be strictly enforced and police forces were reigned in accordingly. As I have repeatedly argued, this was guidance masquerading as laws. The aim was to increase social distancing - and this was achieved.

    The mistake was in putting guidance into laws in the first place, which went on to be extended and extended again. And which Starmer urged on more that Johnson did. Now we have police forces buckling under political and media pressure and wasting valuable time and expense investigating all this nonsense.
    So just to be clear - it isn't as bad as I've suggested because (a) they assume everyone has the same contempt for the law that they've shown and (b) they were so stupid they don't know how to manage laws as against guidelines?

    I don't think that's really helping their case...
    Stupid yes. Contempt for the law is way too strong. The government didn't give a rat's arse whether people had drinks after work or visited relatives - as long as sufficient people moderated social contact to achieve the aim of reducing the spread of the virus. Which it did. To say that someone had contempt for the law by socialising with people they had been working all day with anyway is way too dramatic.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 54,002
    edited May 8

    There's not a single thing I understand about Drakeford's appeal.

    He looks like he's escaped from Wilson's 1974 administration:


    Drakeford and labour in Wales preside over a failing NHS and Education and many areas, especially in the Valleys are living in extreme poverty

    He is a Corbynista and while it is perceived he did well over covid, Starmer is much the better leader for labour.

    However, he made the ridiculous and avoidable decision to demand Boris's resignations as soon as the Met announced their investigation into Boris

    Starmer as a lawyer should have known everyone is innocent until proved guilty which he seems to have forgotten

    I know many want to pin this on the conservative press and supporters but the evidence so far is that this may well be disaffected labourites within the party attempting to destabilise Starmer with the hope of installing a Corbynista style leader
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 46,536
    Roger said:

    Jonathan said:

    There's not a single thing I understand about Drakeford's appeal.

    He looks like he's escaped from Wilson's 1974 administration:


    You voted for Boris and Mogg, who looks like they escaped from a silent movie parody of the worst excesses of the British aristocracy.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVYA3oTG8fg
    That's a brilliant sketch.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 10,218
    Roger said:

    "My expectation is that Starmer would stand down if he was fined which would put the Prime Minister in a bind, the contrast in him and Starmer would make it impossible for the PM to continue".

    That madfe me LOL! You're on form this morning Eagle!

    'But Prime Minister you were discovered quaffing Don Perignon in a party hat while shagging a goat and the Leader of the opposition has just resigned for having a curry after a day's campaigning..."

    "Arf! Arf!

    Indeed.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 31,223

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    I disagree. It shows his contempt for his own laws and for those he expected to follow them. It's also an issue because it feeds in to the perception that he thinks rules are for lesser mortals, not for the Great Leader. Finally, it's an issue because it happened repeatedly, he's lied about it and blamed others to deflect attention from his own culpability.

    In Starmer's case, it will matter because he's been running with it for weeks.
    Quite right. A PM not obeying his own laws is not ok. If the law is wrong, get rid of it, don’t break it.
    If it had been a one-off, due to confusion, and he'd held his hands up and apologised, it would have been OK.

    But it isn't. And it confirms in a very public way that he's a liar and a fool who holds the rest of us in contempt.

    Downing Street thought they were above the laws they made, 'because they were working so hard and under so much stress.' Bollocks. They were under one tenth of the stress of doctors or nurses, and they kept the laws. And many times Downing Street staff were doing things that made matters worse, not better.

    And it's also not just parties. Quarantine was broken. Lockdown was ignored. No wonder Covid spread like wildfire. The whole thing shows an arrogance and a lack of common sense that is also a real political issue. Such people should not be running the country because they're clearly not fit to.
    The curious thing about some of the conversations recently.

    I'd the aim is to say that Downing Street cake equals Durham Curry, then there's a reasonable conversation to be had.

    But does anyone really think that the cake is the only incident in which Johnson is involved?

    This may bring Starmer down (in which case, who is the Harold Wilson to his Hugh Gaitskell?), but how does Johnson then survive what's incoming? Shamelessness only goes so far.

    I suspect that what CCHQ want is to weaken Starmer without destroying him. That may not be an option.
    I don't care if Johnson survives. But if such behaviour is seen as resigning material - as Labour and Starmer have said - then it should apply equally.

    I'd also add that the Durham event feels much more egregious, for the reasons I've mentioned before.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 52,132
    edited May 8
    Stocky said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    I disagree. It shows his contempt for his own laws and for those he expected to follow them. It's also an issue because it feeds in to the perception that he thinks rules are for lesser mortals, not for the Great Leader. Finally, it's an issue because it happened repeatedly, he's lied about it and blamed others to deflect attention from his own culpability.

    In Starmer's case, it will matter because he's been running with it for weeks.
    "It shows his contempt for his own laws and for those he expected to follow them." The government didn't expect the public to follow the laws as assiduously as proved be the case. They have said this repeatedly. The laws were to dampen the spread of the virus; they were never intended to be strictly enforced and police forces were reigned in accordingly. As I have repeatedly argued, this was guidance masquerading as laws. The aim was to increase social distancing - and this was achieved.

    The mistake was in putting guidance into laws in the first place, which went on to be extended and extended again. And which Starmer urged on more that Johnson did. Now we have police forces buckling under political and media pressure and wasting valuable time and expense investigating all this nonsense.
    So just to be clear - it isn't as bad as I've suggested because (a) they assume everyone has the same contempt for the law that they've shown and (b) they were so stupid they don't know how to manage laws as against guidelines?

    I don't think that's really helping their case...
    Stupid yes. Contempt for the law is way too strong. The government didn't give a rat's arse whether people had drinks after work or visited relatives - as long as sufficient people moderated social contact to achieve the aim of reducing the spread of the virus. Which it did. To say that someone had contempt for the law by socialising with people they had been working all day with anyway is way too dramatic.
    Well, I'm afraid you're wrong. Because as they have now conceded, that was the law.

    So either they were holding it in contempt by breaking it, or they were holding it in contempt by making laws for gesture politics that they didn't expect people to follow anyway.

    Neither is a good look, and specifically, in neither case should they be making laws.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 18,793

    Roger said:

    Jonathan said:

    There's not a single thing I understand about Drakeford's appeal.

    He looks like he's escaped from Wilson's 1974 administration:


    You voted for Boris and Mogg, who looks like they escaped from a silent movie parody of the worst excesses of the British aristocracy.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVYA3oTG8fg
    That's a brilliant sketch.
    We shouldn’t have put them back into government and positions of authority. We’ve stepped back as a country since the sixties.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 17,823

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheer hypocrisy too.
    Starmer has to go, but your hyperbole is ludicrous.

    If this work event crossed the line and rules were breached which may be the case, so be it, but for you to then assert it is worse than multiple events attended, and or arranged by Johnson, who also lied to Parliament it has to be said, is absurd.

    Why does Starmer have to go but Johnson can stay? Starmer set the bar to judge Johnson. Starmer being compromised by this incident neutralises any attack he can make on Johnson when more fines and the Gray Report are released. And of course the killer, rules don't apply to Boris Johnson.
  • TazTaz Posts: 5,775
    Jonathan said:


    Taz said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheet hypocrisy too.
    Could Starmer have changed the law? No
    Could Boris have changed the law? Yes.

    The leader of the opposition does not carry same responsibility as the prime minister.

    PS Looking at the way Starmer operates, like many ceos personally I suspect he continued working until late through the night. Others may have gone to bed., but he probably carried on in some way.
    “Party I support - no problem, party I don’t support - problem”
    You seem to be talking about the editorial of the Daily Mail.
    😂😂😂😂
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 46,536
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    There's not a single thing I understand about Drakeford's appeal.

    He looks like he's escaped from Wilson's 1974 administration:

    You voted for Boris and Mogg, who looks like they escaped from a silent movie parody of the worst excesses of the British aristocracy.
    I voted for Damian Hinds.

    Did you vote Labour in December 2019?
    I keep who I vote for to myself. Over the years, I’ve been known to do the occasional tactical manoeuvre. But if you think Boris is ok, it’s not such a huge stretch to understand that some people like Drakeford.
    Lol. I rest my case.

    And I don't think Boris is ok btw: I voted for Hunt as Tory leader and have said (repeatedly) on many occasions I want Boris to go. I started banging that drum in 2020.

    I'm not betting that way, because I don't think he will, and I am able to divorce my betting positions from what I'd personally like to happen.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 54,002
    Taz said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheer hypocrisy too.
    There is also the lie about Rayner not being there.

    It seems there are several inconsistencies in the story here which doesn’t help.

    I have said I think there is nothing to this and there may well not be but labour have handled this appallingly.
    Re Rayner the absurdity of the denial is that she is actually referenced with Starmer on the heading of this leaked memo
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 18,793

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    So according to their own written records this was planned food and drink at the end of the day, with no work scheduled for afterwards?

    I can't see any difference between this and the BYOB party now to be honest.

    You can’t tell the difference between a meal and a ‘party? Breakfast must be a hoot round your place this morning.
    An hour and a half scheduled for food and drinks at the end of the day, after work has finished.

    How is that not a party, but having food at 1pm and then returning to work is?

    They held an after work party and had no intention of returning to work after their party.
    Done that plenty of times at work after a long slog at work in workshops and meetings. It’s about grabbing some sustenance and talking about the work informally before crawling into bed. Did it last week, when the boss came over from Germany. The last thing it is, is a party.
    That's not what you were saying when the conversation was about Downing Street though was it? 🤔
    Indeed, because the facts are different.
    The prime fact being that this event involved someone with a red rosette while the others involved people with a blue one?
    Nah. In this country the buck stops with the Prime Minister, not the leader of the opposition.

    But like I say politically, if Starmer is fined, I think he should consider his position. Do you think Boris should resign?
  • StockyStocky Posts: 8,431
    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    I disagree. It shows his contempt for his own laws and for those he expected to follow them. It's also an issue because it feeds in to the perception that he thinks rules are for lesser mortals, not for the Great Leader. Finally, it's an issue because it happened repeatedly, he's lied about it and blamed others to deflect attention from his own culpability.

    In Starmer's case, it will matter because he's been running with it for weeks.
    "It shows his contempt for his own laws and for those he expected to follow them." The government didn't expect the public to follow the laws as assiduously as proved be the case. They have said this repeatedly. The laws were to dampen the spread of the virus; they were never intended to be strictly enforced and police forces were reigned in accordingly. As I have repeatedly argued, this was guidance masquerading as laws. The aim was to increase social distancing - and this was achieved.

    The mistake was in putting guidance into laws in the first place, which went on to be extended and extended again. And which Starmer urged on more that Johnson did. Now we have police forces buckling under political and media pressure and wasting valuable time and expense investigating all this nonsense.
    So just to be clear - it isn't as bad as I've suggested because (a) they assume everyone has the same contempt for the law that they've shown and (b) they were so stupid they don't know how to manage laws as against guidelines?

    I don't think that's really helping their case...
    Stupid yes. Contempt for the law is way too strong. The government didn't give a rat's arse whether people had drinks after work or visited relatives - as long as sufficient people moderated social contact to achieve the aim of reducing the spread of the virus. Which it did. To say that someone had contempt for the law by socialising with people they had been working all day with anyway is way too dramatic.
    Well, I'm afraid you're wrong. Because as they have now conceded, that was the law.

    So either they were holding it in contempt by breaking it, or they were holding it in contempt by making laws for gesture politics that they didn't expect people to follow anyway.

    Neither is a good look, and specifically, in neither case should they be making laws.
    It was partly gesture politics, I agree. The weakness of this government - given its majority - was astounding to me.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 31,223

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheer hypocrisy too.
    Starmer has to go, but your hyperbole is ludicrous.

    If this work event crossed the line and rules were breached which may be the case, so be it, but for you to then assert it is worse than multiple events attended, and or arranged by Johnson, who also lied to Parliament it has to be said, is absurd.

    Why does Starmer have to go but Johnson can stay? Starmer set the bar to judge Johnson. Starmer being compromised by this incident neutralises any attack he can make on Johnson when more fines and the Gray Report are released. And of course the killer, rules don't apply to Boris Johnson.
    Johnson has only been 'done' for one event so far. The odds are that he'll be done for more - but who knows what'll come out about Starmer's behaviour? (nudge, nudge, wink, wink).

    But IMV the Durham event was worse than the No. 10 ones.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 18,804
    edited May 8

    I don't think it would put Boris in a bind if KS stood down. I think he'd just carry on, because he can. People would say "Boris, you should stand down", and Boris would say "It's more important to deal with more important matter X" and that would be that.

    Agree 100%. Johnson has decided he's going to fight the next election, and the only thing that could stop him is a successful leadership challenge from Tory MPs.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 31,223
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    So according to their own written records this was planned food and drink at the end of the day, with no work scheduled for afterwards?

    I can't see any difference between this and the BYOB party now to be honest.

    You can’t tell the difference between a meal and a ‘party? Breakfast must be a hoot round your place this morning.
    An hour and a half scheduled for food and drinks at the end of the day, after work has finished.

    How is that not a party, but having food at 1pm and then returning to work is?

    They held an after work party and had no intention of returning to work after their party.
    Done that plenty of times at work after a long slog at work in workshops and meetings. It’s about grabbing some sustenance and talking about the work informally before crawling into bed. Did it last week, when the boss came over from Germany. The last thing it is, is a party.
    That's not what you were saying when the conversation was about Downing Street though was it? 🤔
    Indeed, because the facts are different.
    The prime fact being that this event involved someone with a red rosette while the others involved people with a blue one?
    Nah. In this country the buck stops with the Prime Minister, not the leader of the opposition.

    (Snip)
    WTAF! Are you aware of what you're saying? The LOTO can break any law the government brings in - even if he votes for that law himself - because 'the buck stops with the PM' ?
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 8,227

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheer hypocrisy too.
    Starmer has to go, but your hyperbole is ludicrous.

    If this work event crossed the line and rules were breached which may be the case, so be it, but for you to then assert it is worse than multiple events attended, and or arranged by Johnson, who also lied to Parliament it has to be said, is absurd.

    Why does Starmer have to go but Johnson can stay? Starmer set the bar to judge Johnson. Starmer being compromised by this incident neutralises any attack he can make on Johnson when more fines and the Gray Report are released. And of course the killer, rules don't apply to Boris Johnson.
    The reason it's worse is because Starmer has himself set the threshold after the fact, while being in breach of his own threshold. Boris didn't do that.

    Johnson can rightly or wrongly say he didn't think that what happened was wrong at the time and he didn't intend for people having cake at work etc to be illegal, but he's paid the FPN and accepted he made a mistake. Put his hands up.

    Starmer can't do that as he's already set the threshold as to this being a resigning offence. He set a trap for the PM and jumped straight into it. How can Starmer accept he's made a mistake when he's said that it must be a resigning offence already?
  • kjhkjh Posts: 7,400

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheer hypocrisy too.
    Starmer has to go, but your hyperbole is ludicrous.

    If this work event crossed the line and rules were breached which may be the case, so be it, but for you to then assert it is worse than multiple events attended, and or arranged by Johnson, who also lied to Parliament it has to be said, is absurd.

    Why does Starmer have to go but Johnson can stay? Starmer set the bar to judge Johnson. Starmer being compromised by this incident neutralises any attack he can make on Johnson when more fines and the Gray Report are released. And of course the killer, rules don't apply to Boris Johnson.
    Johnson has only been 'done' for one event so far. The odds are that he'll be done for more - but who knows what'll come out about Starmer's behaviour? (nudge, nudge, wink, wink).

    But IMV the Durham event was worse than the No. 10 ones.
    How on earth is it worse than having a DJ/Disco, wine in a suitcase, BYOB, 100 invited, etc.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 18,793

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheer hypocrisy too.
    Starmer has to go, but your hyperbole is ludicrous.

    If this work event crossed the line and rules were breached which may be the case, so be it, but for you to then assert it is worse than multiple events attended, and or arranged by Johnson, who also lied to Parliament it has to be said, is absurd.

    Why does Starmer have to go but Johnson can stay? Starmer set the bar to judge Johnson. Starmer being compromised by this incident neutralises any attack he can make on Johnson when more fines and the Gray Report are released. And of course the killer, rules don't apply to Boris Johnson.
    The reason it's worse is because Starmer has himself set the threshold after the fact, while being in breach of his own threshold. Boris didn't do that.

    Johnson can rightly or wrongly say he didn't think that what happened was wrong at the time and he didn't intend for people having cake at work etc to be illegal, but he's paid the FPN and accepted he made a mistake. Put his hands up.

    Starmer can't do that as he's already set the threshold as to this being a resigning offence. He set a trap for the PM and jumped straight into it. How can Starmer accept he's made a mistake when he's said that it must be a resigning offence already?
    Nah. That’s just bollocks. The PM is accountable for the laws he makes.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 8,227
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    So according to their own written records this was planned food and drink at the end of the day, with no work scheduled for afterwards?

    I can't see any difference between this and the BYOB party now to be honest.

    You can’t tell the difference between a meal and a ‘party? Breakfast must be a hoot round your place this morning.
    An hour and a half scheduled for food and drinks at the end of the day, after work has finished.

    How is that not a party, but having food at 1pm and then returning to work is?

    They held an after work party and had no intention of returning to work after their party.
    Done that plenty of times at work after a long slog at work in workshops and meetings. It’s about grabbing some sustenance and talking about the work informally before crawling into bed. Did it last week, when the boss came over from Germany. The last thing it is, is a party.
    That's not what you were saying when the conversation was about Downing Street though was it? 🤔
    Indeed, because the facts are different.
    The prime fact being that this event involved someone with a red rosette while the others involved people with a blue one?
    Nah. In this country the buck stops with the Prime Minister, not the leader of the opposition.

    But like I say politically, if Starmer is fined, I think he should consider his position. Do you think Boris should resign?
    I've said Boris should resign since last year. I didn't wait for the fine to be issued to say so or equivocate like you are doing?

    What about you and Starmer?
  • kjhkjh Posts: 7,400
    CD13 said:

    As always, I blame the journalists. They love a good emote. Bring on everyone who has a story to tell and you don't have to work for a living. Tear-soaked relatives, and cruel, heartless politicians (Boris) who prove to be hypocrites (Keir and Boris).

    It always reminds me of the old story about the journalist arriving in the Congo "Is there anyone here who can speak English and been raped?"

    All deaths are tragic, but some are less tragic. That's not being heartless, it's being honest. I'm 72, and if I pop my clogs tomorrow, some will mourn (I hope), but there's no comparison to dying at 25.

    Some lock-down was necessary, if only to ease the numbers using the NHS. At least until the vaccines arrived. Sending patients back into nursing homes from hospital was risky. At the time, I likened it to starting a fire in a forest of Eucalyptus trees, but bed-blockers are never good news for the NHS.

    We'll have a bloody good investigation into what went wrong during Covid and the press will have their stories written for a while. And it will lead with, and concentrate on emotions. The numbers will suggest we did better than some and worse than others, but when you're dealing with varying definitions of a Covid death, and different circumstances, emotion will win.

    My view, for what it's worth, is that we didn't do too badly overall. I dislike Bojo, but I don't hate him. I quite like Starmer, but he's definitely boring. However, we don't have a numerate government or press so I'm fearing the worst.



    I don't agree with all of that, but it is a balanced post, so gets a like from me.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 16,937

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheer hypocrisy too.
    Starmer has to go, but your hyperbole is ludicrous.

    If this work event crossed the line and rules were breached which may be the case, so be it, but for you to then assert it is worse than multiple events attended, and or arranged by Johnson, who also lied to Parliament it has to be said, is absurd.

    Why does Starmer have to go but Johnson can stay? Starmer set the bar to judge Johnson. Starmer being compromised by this incident neutralises any attack he can make on Johnson when more fines and the Gray Report are released. And of course the killer, rules don't apply to Boris Johnson.
    Johnson has only been 'done' for one event so far. The odds are that he'll be done for more - but who knows what'll come out about Starmer's behaviour? (nudge, nudge, wink, wink).

    But IMV the Durham event was worse than the No. 10 ones.
    Why other than you being a fan of Johnson? The photos that anyone has seen tells exactly the opposite story.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 31,223
    kjh said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheer hypocrisy too.
    Starmer has to go, but your hyperbole is ludicrous.

    If this work event crossed the line and rules were breached which may be the case, so be it, but for you to then assert it is worse than multiple events attended, and or arranged by Johnson, who also lied to Parliament it has to be said, is absurd.

    Why does Starmer have to go but Johnson can stay? Starmer set the bar to judge Johnson. Starmer being compromised by this incident neutralises any attack he can make on Johnson when more fines and the Gray Report are released. And of course the killer, rules don't apply to Boris Johnson.
    Johnson has only been 'done' for one event so far. The odds are that he'll be done for more - but who knows what'll come out about Starmer's behaviour? (nudge, nudge, wink, wink).

    But IMV the Durham event was worse than the No. 10 ones.
    How on earth is it worse than having a DJ/Disco, wine in a suitcase, BYOB, 100 invited, etc.
    Because the purpose of the law was to avoid spreading the virus. Both events risked that, but the Durham event involved people from all over the country, making any spreading event potentially much worse. AIUI the No.10 thing involved people from the immediate area, who worked and lived at it.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 2,773

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    So according to their own written records this was planned food and drink at the end of the day, with no work scheduled for afterwards?

    I can't see any difference between this and the BYOB party now to be honest.

    You can’t tell the difference between a meal and a ‘party? Breakfast must be a hoot round your place this morning.
    An hour and a half scheduled for food and drinks at the end of the day, after work has finished.

    How is that not a party, but having food at 1pm and then returning to work is?

    They held an after work party and had no intention of returning to work after their party.
    Done that plenty of times at work after a long slog at work in workshops and meetings. It’s about grabbing some sustenance and talking about the work informally before crawling into bed. Did it last week, when the boss came over from Germany. The last thing it is, is a party.
    That's not what you were saying when the conversation was about Downing Street though was it? 🤔
    Indeed, because the facts are different.
    The prime fact being that this event involved someone with a red rosette while the others involved people with a blue one?
    Nah. In this country the buck stops with the Prime Minister, not the leader of the opposition.

    (Snip)
    WTAF! Are you aware of what you're saying? The LOTO can break any law the government brings in - even if he votes for that law himself - because 'the buck stops with the PM' ?
    I fully expect the loto to resign if he receives a fpn because I think he honestly thought that it was meal in a work event, but being a former cps he would stand by the law. It does mean that everyone who was at work during the time and had a shared lunch in the workplace is guilty as well.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 21,645
    Poor Starmer

    The one time in his life he does something vaguely interesting, he gets chased by a digital lynch mob
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 10,218
    Jonathan said:

    Roger said:

    Jonathan said:

    There's not a single thing I understand about Drakeford's appeal.

    He looks like he's escaped from Wilson's 1974 administration:


    You voted for Boris and Mogg, who looks like they escaped from a silent movie parody of the worst excesses of the British aristocracy.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVYA3oTG8fg
    That's a brilliant sketch.
    We shouldn’t have put them back into government and positions of authority. We’ve stepped back as a country since the sixties.
    England made a dreadful unforced error.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 7,400

    Taz said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheer hypocrisy too.
    There is also the lie about Rayner not being there.

    It seems there are several inconsistencies in the story here which doesn’t help.

    I have said I think there is nothing to this and there may well not be but labour have handled this appallingly.
    Re Rayner the absurdity of the denial is that she is actually referenced with Starmer on the heading of this leaked memo
    Not that I think it matters one iota, but for goodness sake was Rayner there or not. Wish they would make up their minds. She was there, then she wasn't, now she is again.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 8,431
    CD13 said:

    As always, I blame the journalists. They love a good emote. Bring on everyone who has a story to tell and you don't have to work for a living. Tear-soaked relatives, and cruel, heartless politicians (Boris) who prove to be hypocrites (Keir and Boris).

    It always reminds me of the old story about the journalist arriving in the Congo "Is there anyone here who can speak English and been raped?"

    All deaths are tragic, but some are less tragic. That's not being heartless, it's being honest. I'm 72, and if I pop my clogs tomorrow, some will mourn (I hope), but there's no comparison to dying at 25.

    Some lock-down was necessary, if only to ease the numbers using the NHS. At least until the vaccines arrived. Sending patients back into nursing homes from hospital was risky. At the time, I likened it to starting a fire in a forest of Eucalyptus trees, but bed-blockers are never good news for the NHS.

    We'll have a bloody good investigation into what went wrong during Covid and the press will have their stories written for a while. And it will lead with, and concentrate on emotions. The numbers will suggest we did better than some and worse than others, but when you're dealing with varying definitions of a Covid death, and different circumstances, emotion will win.

    My view, for what it's worth, is that we didn't do too badly overall. I dislike Bojo, but I don't hate him. I quite like Starmer, but he's definitely boring. However, we don't have a numerate government or press so I'm fearing the worst.



    Great post. There was an argument for lockdown measures in that exceptional period between when the vaccines were invented and when they were sufficiently administered. But, as with all authoritarian measures, the time limits should have be explicit.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 78,843
    Andy_JS said:

    Birmingham local elections:

    Popular vote [using highest vote method]

    Lab 106,411
    Con 59,604
    LD 31,425
    Green 14,691
    TUSC 963
    Ind 778
    Workers Party Birmingham 455
    We Matter Party 379
    Breakthrough Party 265
    Reform UK 93

    Lab 49.5%
    Con 27.7%
    LD 14.6%
    Green 6.8%
    TUSC 0.4%
    Ind 0.4%
    Workers Party Birmingham 0.2%
    We Matter Party 0.2%
    Breakthrough Party 0.1%
    Reform UK 0.0%


    Changes since 2018:

    Lab -0.8%
    Con -0.9%
    LD +0.5%
    Green +2.4%
    TUSC +0.1%
    Ind -1.4%
    Others +0.0%

    It's tough for new parties, particularly minor ones, but the hubris of your name declaring you as breaking through or mattering does amuse.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 8,227
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheer hypocrisy too.
    Starmer has to go, but your hyperbole is ludicrous.

    If this work event crossed the line and rules were breached which may be the case, so be it, but for you to then assert it is worse than multiple events attended, and or arranged by Johnson, who also lied to Parliament it has to be said, is absurd.

    Why does Starmer have to go but Johnson can stay? Starmer set the bar to judge Johnson. Starmer being compromised by this incident neutralises any attack he can make on Johnson when more fines and the Gray Report are released. And of course the killer, rules don't apply to Boris Johnson.
    The reason it's worse is because Starmer has himself set the threshold after the fact, while being in breach of his own threshold. Boris didn't do that.

    Johnson can rightly or wrongly say he didn't think that what happened was wrong at the time and he didn't intend for people having cake at work etc to be illegal, but he's paid the FPN and accepted he made a mistake. Put his hands up.

    Starmer can't do that as he's already set the threshold as to this being a resigning offence. He set a trap for the PM and jumped straight into it. How can Starmer accept he's made a mistake when he's said that it must be a resigning offence already?
    Nah. That’s just bollocks. The PM is accountable for the laws he makes.
    Starmer voted for the laws. He is accountable for the laws he made too isn't he?

    If he'd voted against them it'd be different but he didn't, in fact he was against the laws being relaxed!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 25,994

    kjh said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheer hypocrisy too.
    Starmer has to go, but your hyperbole is ludicrous.

    If this work event crossed the line and rules were breached which may be the case, so be it, but for you to then assert it is worse than multiple events attended, and or arranged by Johnson, who also lied to Parliament it has to be said, is absurd.

    Why does Starmer have to go but Johnson can stay? Starmer set the bar to judge Johnson. Starmer being compromised by this incident neutralises any attack he can make on Johnson when more fines and the Gray Report are released. And of course the killer, rules don't apply to Boris Johnson.
    Johnson has only been 'done' for one event so far. The odds are that he'll be done for more - but who knows what'll come out about Starmer's behaviour? (nudge, nudge, wink, wink).

    But IMV the Durham event was worse than the No. 10 ones.
    How on earth is it worse than having a DJ/Disco, wine in a suitcase, BYOB, 100 invited, etc.
    Because the purpose of the law was to avoid spreading the virus. Both events risked that, but the Durham event involved people from all over the country, making any spreading event potentially much worse. AIUI the No.10 thing involved people from the immediate area, who worked and lived at it.
    Lots of civil servants and pols living and commuting all over the Home Counties and London, so your comparison doesnt' work. At least one No 10 event involved people from various depts as well.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 21,645
    Roger said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheer hypocrisy too.
    Starmer has to go, but your hyperbole is ludicrous.

    If this work event crossed the line and rules were breached which may be the case, so be it, but for you to then assert it is worse than multiple events attended, and or arranged by Johnson, who also lied to Parliament it has to be said, is absurd.

    Why does Starmer have to go but Johnson can stay? Starmer set the bar to judge Johnson. Starmer being compromised by this incident neutralises any attack he can make on Johnson when more fines and the Gray Report are released. And of course the killer, rules don't apply to Boris Johnson.
    Johnson has only been 'done' for one event so far. The odds are that he'll be done for more - but who knows what'll come out about Starmer's behaviour? (nudge, nudge, wink, wink).

    But IMV the Durham event was worse than the No. 10 ones.
    Why other than you being a fan of Johnson? The photos that anyone has seen tells exactly the opposite story.
    yes, but when the revelations about cocaine and hookers come out it will look different
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 17,823
    edited May 8

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheer hypocrisy too.
    Starmer has to go, but your hyperbole is ludicrous.

    If this work event crossed the line and rules were breached which may be the case, so be it, but for you to then assert it is worse than multiple events attended, and or arranged by Johnson, who also lied to Parliament it has to be said, is absurd.

    Why does Starmer have to go but Johnson can stay? Starmer set the bar to judge Johnson. Starmer being compromised by this incident neutralises any attack he can make on Johnson when more fines and the Gray Report are released. And of course the killer, rules don't apply to Boris Johnson.
    The reason it's worse is because Starmer has himself set the threshold after the fact, while being in breach of his own threshold. Boris didn't do that.

    Johnson can rightly or wrongly say he didn't think that what happened was wrong at the time and he didn't intend for people having cake at work etc to be illegal, but he's paid the FPN and accepted he made a mistake. Put his hands up.

    Starmer can't do that as he's already set the threshold as to this being a resigning offence. He set a trap for the PM and jumped straight into it. How can Starmer accept he's made a mistake when he's said that it must be a resigning offence already?
    You are as usual writing absolute and utter nonsense.

    I have agreed with you Starmer set the bar by which a breach of Covid rules is measured, and as such he must go having been busted.

    But worse than the man who wrote the rules, lied to Parliament and attended events which according to the already released bits of the Gray
    Report could number around eight?

    You have Starmer, by the nuts, Johnson has his scalp, BigDog is saved and his foe vanquished. So why would you mislead the board by claiming Starmer's charge means multiple charges against Johnson are now trivial?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 31,223
    Roger said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheer hypocrisy too.
    Starmer has to go, but your hyperbole is ludicrous.

    If this work event crossed the line and rules were breached which may be the case, so be it, but for you to then assert it is worse than multiple events attended, and or arranged by Johnson, who also lied to Parliament it has to be said, is absurd.

    Why does Starmer have to go but Johnson can stay? Starmer set the bar to judge Johnson. Starmer being compromised by this incident neutralises any attack he can make on Johnson when more fines and the Gray Report are released. And of course the killer, rules don't apply to Boris Johnson.
    Johnson has only been 'done' for one event so far. The odds are that he'll be done for more - but who knows what'll come out about Starmer's behaviour? (nudge, nudge, wink, wink).

    But IMV the Durham event was worse than the No. 10 ones.
    Why other than you being a fan of Johnson? The photos that anyone has seen tells exactly the opposite story.
    "you being a fan of Johnson"

    LOL. You obviously missed the many, many posts where I called for anyone but Johnson to be Conservative leader. You obviously missed where I have not voted Conservative since he got power. The posts where I have repeatedly called him a clown and worse. Where I absolutely lambasted him for the Garden Bridge debacle, and said he was unfit to be PM because of it (which I think has probably been proved correct).

    I was saying all of this when many now anti-Boris people were hailing him as their new God because of Brexit.

    So aside from that, yeah, I'm a fan.

    Not. :)
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 18,793

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheer hypocrisy too.
    Starmer has to go, but your hyperbole is ludicrous.

    If this work event crossed the line and rules were breached which may be the case, so be it, but for you to then assert it is worse than multiple events attended, and or arranged by Johnson, who also lied to Parliament it has to be said, is absurd.

    Why does Starmer have to go but Johnson can stay? Starmer set the bar to judge Johnson. Starmer being compromised by this incident neutralises any attack he can make on Johnson when more fines and the Gray Report are released. And of course the killer, rules don't apply to Boris Johnson.
    The reason it's worse is because Starmer has himself set the threshold after the fact, while being in breach of his own threshold. Boris didn't do that.

    Johnson can rightly or wrongly say he didn't think that what happened was wrong at the time and he didn't intend for people having cake at work etc to be illegal, but he's paid the FPN and accepted he made a mistake. Put his hands up.

    Starmer can't do that as he's already set the threshold as to this being a resigning offence. He set a trap for the PM and jumped straight into it. How can Starmer accept he's made a mistake when he's said that it must be a resigning offence already?
    Nah. That’s just bollocks. The PM is accountable for the laws he makes.
    Starmer voted for the laws. He is accountable for the laws he made too isn't he?

    If he'd voted against them it'd be different but he didn't, in fact he was against the laws being relaxed!
    The buck stops with the PM, not the leader of the opposition. You’ll be arguing that the Tories were responsible for Iraq next.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 31,223
    Carnyx said:

    kjh said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheer hypocrisy too.
    Starmer has to go, but your hyperbole is ludicrous.

    If this work event crossed the line and rules were breached which may be the case, so be it, but for you to then assert it is worse than multiple events attended, and or arranged by Johnson, who also lied to Parliament it has to be said, is absurd.

    Why does Starmer have to go but Johnson can stay? Starmer set the bar to judge Johnson. Starmer being compromised by this incident neutralises any attack he can make on Johnson when more fines and the Gray Report are released. And of course the killer, rules don't apply to Boris Johnson.
    Johnson has only been 'done' for one event so far. The odds are that he'll be done for more - but who knows what'll come out about Starmer's behaviour? (nudge, nudge, wink, wink).

    But IMV the Durham event was worse than the No. 10 ones.
    How on earth is it worse than having a DJ/Disco, wine in a suitcase, BYOB, 100 invited, etc.
    Because the purpose of the law was to avoid spreading the virus. Both events risked that, but the Durham event involved people from all over the country, making any spreading event potentially much worse. AIUI the No.10 thing involved people from the immediate area, who worked and lived at it.
    Lots of civil servants and pols living and commuting all over the Home Counties and London, so your comparison doesnt' work. At least one No 10 event involved people from various depts as well.
    All people who would normally meet up at various times of the day/week during the normal work of government, surely?
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 6,813

    Let's just agree to get rid of them both.

    They are both pretty useless.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 52,132

    Carnyx said:

    kjh said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheer hypocrisy too.
    Starmer has to go, but your hyperbole is ludicrous.

    If this work event crossed the line and rules were breached which may be the case, so be it, but for you to then assert it is worse than multiple events attended, and or arranged by Johnson, who also lied to Parliament it has to be said, is absurd.

    Why does Starmer have to go but Johnson can stay? Starmer set the bar to judge Johnson. Starmer being compromised by this incident neutralises any attack he can make on Johnson when more fines and the Gray Report are released. And of course the killer, rules don't apply to Boris Johnson.
    Johnson has only been 'done' for one event so far. The odds are that he'll be done for more - but who knows what'll come out about Starmer's behaviour? (nudge, nudge, wink, wink).

    But IMV the Durham event was worse than the No. 10 ones.
    How on earth is it worse than having a DJ/Disco, wine in a suitcase, BYOB, 100 invited, etc.
    Because the purpose of the law was to avoid spreading the virus. Both events risked that, but the Durham event involved people from all over the country, making any spreading event potentially much worse. AIUI the No.10 thing involved people from the immediate area, who worked and lived at it.
    Lots of civil servants and pols living and commuting all over the Home Counties and London, so your comparison doesnt' work. At least one No 10 event involved people from various depts as well.
    All people who would normally meet up at various times of the day/week during the normal work of government, surely?
    In my best Private Frazer voice:

    'You don't call what they do a day's work, do you?'
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 78,843
    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I don't think it would put Boris in a bind if KS stood down. I think he'd just carry on, because he can. People would say "Boris, you should stand down", and Boris would say "It's more important to deal with more important matter X" and that would be that.

    Yep, there is no way Johnson would stand down.

    You're very big and definite and full of certainties: the same yesterday with a 'no way' riposte.

    Maybe, just maybe, you're not always right and it would be worth your while pausing to reflect a little more. Just a thought.

    I am expressing a view based on long observation of the way in which Boris Johnson conducts himself. I am sorry if that upsets you!

    It doesn't upset me, it bemuses me.
    It's not a requirement that people caveat every prediction with confirmation nothing is certain in life. I think we can take it as read in such declarations that someone is merely confident in their view, not claiming omniscient prognostication.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 54,002
    kjh said:

    Taz said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheer hypocrisy too.
    There is also the lie about Rayner not being there.

    It seems there are several inconsistencies in the story here which doesn’t help.

    I have said I think there is nothing to this and there may well not be but labour have handled this appallingly.
    Re Rayner the absurdity of the denial is that she is actually referenced with Starmer on the heading of this leaked memo
    Not that I think it matters one iota, but for goodness sake was Rayner there or not. Wish they would make up their minds. She was there, then she wasn't, now she is again.
    She was there and it matters as she is likely to receive a FPN if Starmer does
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 8,227

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheer hypocrisy too.
    Starmer has to go, but your hyperbole is ludicrous.

    If this work event crossed the line and rules were breached which may be the case, so be it, but for you to then assert it is worse than multiple events attended, and or arranged by Johnson, who also lied to Parliament it has to be said, is absurd.

    Why does Starmer have to go but Johnson can stay? Starmer set the bar to judge Johnson. Starmer being compromised by this incident neutralises any attack he can make on Johnson when more fines and the Gray Report are released. And of course the killer, rules don't apply to Boris Johnson.
    The reason it's worse is because Starmer has himself set the threshold after the fact, while being in breach of his own threshold. Boris didn't do that.

    Johnson can rightly or wrongly say he didn't think that what happened was wrong at the time and he didn't intend for people having cake at work etc to be illegal, but he's paid the FPN and accepted he made a mistake. Put his hands up.

    Starmer can't do that as he's already set the threshold as to this being a resigning offence. He set a trap for the PM and jumped straight into it. How can Starmer accept he's made a mistake when he's said that it must be a resigning offence already?
    You are as usual writing absolute and utter nonsense.

    I have agreed with you Starmer set the bar by which a breach of Covid rules is measured, and as such he must go having been busted.

    But worse than the man who wrote the rules, lied to Parliament and attended events which according to the already released bits of the Gray
    Report could number around eight.

    You have Starmer, by the nuts, Johnson has his scalp, BigDog is saved and his foe vanquished. So why would you mislead the board by claiming Starmer's charge means multiple charges against Johnson are now trivial?
    I never said Johnson's events are trivial, I said he should resign over them. I stand by that.

    But Starmer is worse because he set the threshold of this being a resigning offence AFTER the facts came out. Boris didn't.

    So Starmer has clearly surpassed his own resignation threshold he gave to Parliament. Was he lying to Parliament when he said that those investigated by the Police should resign? After the facts came out.

    Boris can (wrongly in my view) grasp at the straw of saying "I made a mistake, I'm sorry, I didn't think this was against the rules. I'm sorry for what happened and lessons will be learnt."

    Starmer has no straws to clutch at as he went in with a two footed studs first challenge over what Boris did.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 21,645


    Let's just agree to get rid of them both.

    They are both pretty useless.

    seconded
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 25,994

    Carnyx said:

    kjh said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheer hypocrisy too.
    Starmer has to go, but your hyperbole is ludicrous.

    If this work event crossed the line and rules were breached which may be the case, so be it, but for you to then assert it is worse than multiple events attended, and or arranged by Johnson, who also lied to Parliament it has to be said, is absurd.

    Why does Starmer have to go but Johnson can stay? Starmer set the bar to judge Johnson. Starmer being compromised by this incident neutralises any attack he can make on Johnson when more fines and the Gray Report are released. And of course the killer, rules don't apply to Boris Johnson.
    Johnson has only been 'done' for one event so far. The odds are that he'll be done for more - but who knows what'll come out about Starmer's behaviour? (nudge, nudge, wink, wink).

    But IMV the Durham event was worse than the No. 10 ones.
    How on earth is it worse than having a DJ/Disco, wine in a suitcase, BYOB, 100 invited, etc.
    Because the purpose of the law was to avoid spreading the virus. Both events risked that, but the Durham event involved people from all over the country, making any spreading event potentially much worse. AIUI the No.10 thing involved people from the immediate area, who worked and lived at it.
    Lots of civil servants and pols living and commuting all over the Home Counties and London, so your comparison doesnt' work. At least one No 10 event involved people from various depts as well.
    All people who would normally meet up at various times of the day/week during the normal work of government, surely?
    Cross-departmental parties are not the normal work of gmt ... and some at least of the people at Durham met regularly at Westminster. PLus they were there for the working meeting anyway.

    I don't recall that travellign around on trains was banned at the time, either.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 37,175

    Taz said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheer hypocrisy too.
    There is also the lie about Rayner not being there.

    It seems there are several inconsistencies in the story here which doesn’t help.

    I have said I think there is nothing to this and there may well not be but labour have handled this appallingly.
    Re Rayner the absurdity of the denial is that she is actually referenced with Starmer on the heading of this leaked memo
    The absurdity of the denial certainly lends credence to the notion that it was cock-up rather than conspiracy.

  • kjhkjh Posts: 7,400

    kjh said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheer hypocrisy too.
    Starmer has to go, but your hyperbole is ludicrous.

    If this work event crossed the line and rules were breached which may be the case, so be it, but for you to then assert it is worse than multiple events attended, and or arranged by Johnson, who also lied to Parliament it has to be said, is absurd.

    Why does Starmer have to go but Johnson can stay? Starmer set the bar to judge Johnson. Starmer being compromised by this incident neutralises any attack he can make on Johnson when more fines and the Gray Report are released. And of course the killer, rules don't apply to Boris Johnson.
    Johnson has only been 'done' for one event so far. The odds are that he'll be done for more - but who knows what'll come out about Starmer's behaviour? (nudge, nudge, wink, wink).

    But IMV the Durham event was worse than the No. 10 ones.
    How on earth is it worse than having a DJ/Disco, wine in a suitcase, BYOB, 100 invited, etc.
    Because the purpose of the law was to avoid spreading the virus. Both events risked that, but the Durham event involved people from all over the country, making any spreading event potentially much worse. AIUI the No.10 thing involved people from the immediate area, who worked and lived at it.
    Surely the civil servants and politicians would have come from at least all over the Home Counties and from different buildings and there were a lot more of them. Also meetings were allowed so if any rule was broken it was technical, whereas (some of ) No 10 breaks were clear abuses. It is like comparing someone doing 35 in a 30 mile zone to someone doing 70 in a 30 mile zone and you think it is the other way around.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 8,227
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheer hypocrisy too.
    Starmer has to go, but your hyperbole is ludicrous.

    If this work event crossed the line and rules were breached which may be the case, so be it, but for you to then assert it is worse than multiple events attended, and or arranged by Johnson, who also lied to Parliament it has to be said, is absurd.

    Why does Starmer have to go but Johnson can stay? Starmer set the bar to judge Johnson. Starmer being compromised by this incident neutralises any attack he can make on Johnson when more fines and the Gray Report are released. And of course the killer, rules don't apply to Boris Johnson.
    The reason it's worse is because Starmer has himself set the threshold after the fact, while being in breach of his own threshold. Boris didn't do that.

    Johnson can rightly or wrongly say he didn't think that what happened was wrong at the time and he didn't intend for people having cake at work etc to be illegal, but he's paid the FPN and accepted he made a mistake. Put his hands up.

    Starmer can't do that as he's already set the threshold as to this being a resigning offence. He set a trap for the PM and jumped straight into it. How can Starmer accept he's made a mistake when he's said that it must be a resigning offence already?
    Nah. That’s just bollocks. The PM is accountable for the laws he makes.
    Starmer voted for the laws. He is accountable for the laws he made too isn't he?

    If he'd voted against them it'd be different but he didn't, in fact he was against the laws being relaxed!
    The buck stops with the PM, not the leader of the opposition. You’ll be arguing that the Tories were responsible for Iraq next.
    The Tories voted for Iraq, of course they share responsibility.

    The Lib Dems didn't. They don't.

    That's how Parliament works.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 23,445
    Wordle today...
  • kjhkjh Posts: 7,400
    Carnyx said:

    kjh said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheer hypocrisy too.
    Starmer has to go, but your hyperbole is ludicrous.

    If this work event crossed the line and rules were breached which may be the case, so be it, but for you to then assert it is worse than multiple events attended, and or arranged by Johnson, who also lied to Parliament it has to be said, is absurd.

    Why does Starmer have to go but Johnson can stay? Starmer set the bar to judge Johnson. Starmer being compromised by this incident neutralises any attack he can make on Johnson when more fines and the Gray Report are released. And of course the killer, rules don't apply to Boris Johnson.
    Johnson has only been 'done' for one event so far. The odds are that he'll be done for more - but who knows what'll come out about Starmer's behaviour? (nudge, nudge, wink, wink).

    But IMV the Durham event was worse than the No. 10 ones.
    How on earth is it worse than having a DJ/Disco, wine in a suitcase, BYOB, 100 invited, etc.
    Because the purpose of the law was to avoid spreading the virus. Both events risked that, but the Durham event involved people from all over the country, making any spreading event potentially much worse. AIUI the No.10 thing involved people from the immediate area, who worked and lived at it.
    Lots of civil servants and pols living and commuting all over the Home Counties and London, so your comparison doesnt' work. At least one No 10 event involved people from various depts as well.
    Snap.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 17,823

    Roger said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheer hypocrisy too.
    Starmer has to go, but your hyperbole is ludicrous.

    If this work event crossed the line and rules were breached which may be the case, so be it, but for you to then assert it is worse than multiple events attended, and or arranged by Johnson, who also lied to Parliament it has to be said, is absurd.

    Why does Starmer have to go but Johnson can stay? Starmer set the bar to judge Johnson. Starmer being compromised by this incident neutralises any attack he can make on Johnson when more fines and the Gray Report are released. And of course the killer, rules don't apply to Boris Johnson.
    Johnson has only been 'done' for one event so far. The odds are that he'll be done for more - but who knows what'll come out about Starmer's behaviour? (nudge, nudge, wink, wink).

    But IMV the Durham event was worse than the No. 10 ones.
    Why other than you being a fan of Johnson? The photos that anyone has seen tells exactly the opposite story.
    yes, but when the revelations about cocaine and hookers come out it will look different
    Steady on. Is it too early for the libel Lawyers to be up and about?
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,160
    Perhaps the police could give Ms Rayner a Schrodinger FPN?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 31,223

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    So according to their own written records this was planned food and drink at the end of the day, with no work scheduled for afterwards?

    I can't see any difference between this and the BYOB party now to be honest.

    You can’t tell the difference between a meal and a ‘party? Breakfast must be a hoot round your place this morning.
    An hour and a half scheduled for food and drinks at the end of the day, after work has finished.

    How is that not a party, but having food at 1pm and then returning to work is?

    They held an after work party and had no intention of returning to work after their party.
    Done that plenty of times at work after a long slog at work in workshops and meetings. It’s about grabbing some sustenance and talking about the work informally before crawling into bed. Did it last week, when the boss came over from Germany. The last thing it is, is a party.
    That's not what you were saying when the conversation was about Downing Street though was it? 🤔
    Indeed, because the facts are different.
    The prime fact being that this event involved someone with a red rosette while the others involved people with a blue one?
    Nah. In this country the buck stops with the Prime Minister, not the leader of the opposition.

    (Snip)
    WTAF! Are you aware of what you're saying? The LOTO can break any law the government brings in - even if he votes for that law himself - because 'the buck stops with the PM' ?
    I fully expect the loto to resign if he receives a fpn because I think he honestly thought that it was meal in a work event, but being a former cps he would stand by the law. It does mean that everyone who was at work during the time and had a shared lunch in the workplace is guilty as well.
    Not really, if the assumption is that people go back to work after a lunch. Most workplaces do not allow booze during work hours (and rightly so IMO). In both the No. 10 and Durham cases, the presence of alcohol blows the 'work' excuse out of the water. But at least the No. 10 events occurred in the middle of the day, when going back to work was an option.

    It wasn't in the Durham case. Unless that time I got pi**ed at the Fort St George and talked about some coding problems with an equally-drunk colleague one night could be called 'work'.

    Neither event should have been illegal, given the situation. But Labour made it an issue, and they're getting caught out by their own witch hunt.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 8,431

    kjh said:

    Taz said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheer hypocrisy too.
    There is also the lie about Rayner not being there.

    It seems there are several inconsistencies in the story here which doesn’t help.

    I have said I think there is nothing to this and there may well not be but labour have handled this appallingly.
    Re Rayner the absurdity of the denial is that she is actually referenced with Starmer on the heading of this leaked memo
    Not that I think it matters one iota, but for goodness sake was Rayner there or not. Wish they would make up their minds. She was there, then she wasn't, now she is again.
    She was there and it matters as she is likely to receive a FPN if Starmer does
    It's all bollox.

    The police shouldn't be investigating, Johnson should never have got a FPN and neither should SKS. I can't believe Sunak got issued with one - poor bugger. For Sunak to get one this must amount to the strictest draconian application of the laws, well after the event - and in the context of none - yes nil - new infections in London on that particular day. I don't mean nil deaths I mean nil new infections.

    Also worth mentioning that Johnson's birthday "party" was reported at the time and no-one gave a monkey's.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 23,445
    Boris is going nowhere. Doubt SKS is either.
    That is my considered opinion.
    Whether they should or not is a separate issue
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 31,223
    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheer hypocrisy too.
    Starmer has to go, but your hyperbole is ludicrous.

    If this work event crossed the line and rules were breached which may be the case, so be it, but for you to then assert it is worse than multiple events attended, and or arranged by Johnson, who also lied to Parliament it has to be said, is absurd.

    Why does Starmer have to go but Johnson can stay? Starmer set the bar to judge Johnson. Starmer being compromised by this incident neutralises any attack he can make on Johnson when more fines and the Gray Report are released. And of course the killer, rules don't apply to Boris Johnson.
    Johnson has only been 'done' for one event so far. The odds are that he'll be done for more - but who knows what'll come out about Starmer's behaviour? (nudge, nudge, wink, wink).

    But IMV the Durham event was worse than the No. 10 ones.
    How on earth is it worse than having a DJ/Disco, wine in a suitcase, BYOB, 100 invited, etc.
    Because the purpose of the law was to avoid spreading the virus. Both events risked that, but the Durham event involved people from all over the country, making any spreading event potentially much worse. AIUI the No.10 thing involved people from the immediate area, who worked and lived at it.
    Surely the civil servants and politicians would have come from at least all over the Home Counties and from different buildings and there were a lot more of them. Also meetings were allowed so if any rule was broken it was technical, whereas (some of ) No 10 breaks were clear abuses. It is like comparing someone doing 35 in a 30 mile zone to someone doing 70 in a 30 mile zone and you think it is the other way around.
    This is where we really need a list of attendees to all the events. ;)

    But ISTR that local activists went to the Durham do as well?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 37,175

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheer hypocrisy too.
    It was a plan. Plans change. We know Starmer’s plans changed because he was filmed having his beer when the plan said he should have been heading back to his hotel.

    But he has to go go if he gets an FPN. Of that there is no doubt.

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 18,793

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheer hypocrisy too.
    Starmer has to go, but your hyperbole is ludicrous.

    If this work event crossed the line and rules were breached which may be the case, so be it, but for you to then assert it is worse than multiple events attended, and or arranged by Johnson, who also lied to Parliament it has to be said, is absurd.

    Why does Starmer have to go but Johnson can stay? Starmer set the bar to judge Johnson. Starmer being compromised by this incident neutralises any attack he can make on Johnson when more fines and the Gray Report are released. And of course the killer, rules don't apply to Boris Johnson.
    The reason it's worse is because Starmer has himself set the threshold after the fact, while being in breach of his own threshold. Boris didn't do that.

    Johnson can rightly or wrongly say he didn't think that what happened was wrong at the time and he didn't intend for people having cake at work etc to be illegal, but he's paid the FPN and accepted he made a mistake. Put his hands up.

    Starmer can't do that as he's already set the threshold as to this being a resigning offence. He set a trap for the PM and jumped straight into it. How can Starmer accept he's made a mistake when he's said that it must be a resigning offence already?
    Nah. That’s just bollocks. The PM is accountable for the laws he makes.
    Starmer voted for the laws. He is accountable for the laws he made too isn't he?

    If he'd voted against them it'd be different but he didn't, in fact he was against the laws being relaxed!
    The buck stops with the PM, not the leader of the opposition. You’ll be arguing that the Tories were responsible for Iraq next.
    The Tories voted for Iraq, of course they share responsibility.

    The Lib Dems didn't. They don't.

    That's how Parliament works.
    The executive writes the laws and uses it’s majority to pass them. We pay Boris lots of money for something. I thought the buck stops with him as leader of the government. Clearly, that’s not the case in your world. I must be naive. Responsibility for the government’s laws and conduct lies with the Member for Chipping Sodbury South West. The government has nothing to do withe laws it writes.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 78,843
    edited May 8
    Stocky said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    I disagree. It shows his contempt for his own laws and for those he expected to follow them. It's also an issue because it feeds in to the perception that he thinks rules are for lesser mortals, not for the Great Leader. Finally, it's an issue because it happened repeatedly, he's lied about it and blamed others to deflect attention from his own culpability.

    In Starmer's case, it will matter because he's been running with it for weeks.
    "It shows his contempt for his own laws and for those he expected to follow them." The government didn't expect the public to follow the laws as assiduously as proved be the case. They have said this repeatedly. The laws were to dampen the spread of the virus; they were never intended to be strictly enforced and police forces were reigned in accordingly. As I have repeatedly argued, this was guidance masquerading as laws. The aim was to increase social distancing - and this was achieved.

    The mistake was in putting guidance into laws in the first place, which went on to be extended and extended again. And which Starmer urged on more that Johnson did. Now we have police forces buckling under political and media pressure and wasting valuable time and expense investigating all this nonsense.
    So just to be clear - it isn't as bad as I've suggested because (a) they assume everyone has the same contempt for the law that they've shown and (b) they were so stupid they don't know how to manage laws as against guidelines?

    I don't think that's really helping their case...
    Stupid yes. Contempt for the law is way too strong. The government didn't give a rat's arse whether people had drinks after work or visited relatives - as long as sufficient people moderated social contact to achieve the aim of reducing the spread of the virus. Which it did. To say that someone had contempt for the law by socialising with people they had been working all day with anyway is way too dramatic.
    It's not too dramatic if as claimed the law prohibited it.

    They had options when creating the laws. If they went for over the top and rigid that was a choice, and it would show contempt to act without a care for any law made in that situation.

    If rules are stupid you get them changed, you dont just ignore them and complain that those who did not ignore them, because you told them not too, get mad.

    Lots of regular activities were prevented. If the government wanted a more nuanced law to modulate peoples behaviour as needed it could have. But I remember people defending the blunt hammer of the rules on the basis the public would not take it seriously otherwise.
  • pingping Posts: 2,659
    edited May 8
    Stocky said:

    kjh said:

    Taz said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheer hypocrisy too.
    There is also the lie about Rayner not being there.

    It seems there are several inconsistencies in the story here which doesn’t help.

    I have said I think there is nothing to this and there may well not be but labour have handled this appallingly.
    Re Rayner the absurdity of the denial is that she is actually referenced with Starmer on the heading of this leaked memo
    Not that I think it matters one iota, but for goodness sake was Rayner there or not. Wish they would make up their minds. She was there, then she wasn't, now she is again.
    She was there and it matters as she is likely to receive a FPN if Starmer does
    It's all bollox.

    The police shouldn't be investigating, Johnson should never have got a FPN and neither should SKS. I can't believe Sunak got issued with one - poor bugger. For Sunak to get one this must amount to the strictest draconian application of the laws, well after the event - and in the context of none - yes nil - new infections in London on that particular day. I don't mean nil deaths I mean nil new infections.

    Also worth mentioning that Johnson's birthday "party" was reported at the time and no-one gave a monkey's.
    Great post.

    I agree - it’s all bollocks. Boris should come out and reverse all the fines.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 9,977
    Was anybody actually daft enough to follow the rules? At the height of lockdown I went to Livingston just to get various car bits zinc plated and to France (twice) via the Rotterdam 'underground railroad'.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 54,002
    Stocky said:

    kjh said:

    Taz said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheer hypocrisy too.
    There is also the lie about Rayner not being there.

    It seems there are several inconsistencies in the story here which doesn’t help.

    I have said I think there is nothing to this and there may well not be but labour have handled this appallingly.
    Re Rayner the absurdity of the denial is that she is actually referenced with Starmer on the heading of this leaked memo
    Not that I think it matters one iota, but for goodness sake was Rayner there or not. Wish they would make up their minds. She was there, then she wasn't, now she is again.
    She was there and it matters as she is likely to receive a FPN if Starmer does
    It's all bollox.

    The police shouldn't be investigating, Johnson should never have got a FPN and neither should SKS. I can't believe Sunak got issued with one - poor bugger. For Sunak to get one this must amount to the strictest draconian application of the laws, well after the event - and in the context of none - yes nil - new infections in London on that particular day. I don't mean nil deaths I mean nil new infections.

    Also worth mentioning that Johnson's birthday "party" was reported at the time and no-one gave a monkey's.
    I have commented several times the idea the PM, COE, and leader and deputy leader of the labour party should lose their jobs over a FPN is surreal and it must not happen in the future in any health crisis
  • TazTaz Posts: 5,775
    dixiedean said:

    Wordle today...

    One for our neck of the woods.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 25,994
    Dura_Ace said:

    Was anybody actually daft enough to follow the rules? At the height of lockdown I went to Livingston just to get various car bits zinc plated and to France (twice) via the Rotterdam 'underground railroad'.

    I hope you didn't try to do 200mph on the Dolphinton Straight. The polis there are very clued up.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 6,654
    Stocky said:

    kjh said:

    Taz said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheer hypocrisy too.
    There is also the lie about Rayner not being there.

    It seems there are several inconsistencies in the story here which doesn’t help.

    I have said I think there is nothing to this and there may well not be but labour have handled this appallingly.
    Re Rayner the absurdity of the denial is that she is actually referenced with Starmer on the heading of this leaked memo
    Not that I think it matters one iota, but for goodness sake was Rayner there or not. Wish they would make up their minds. She was there, then she wasn't, now she is again.
    She was there and it matters as she is likely to receive a FPN if Starmer does
    It's all bollox.

    The police shouldn't be investigating, Johnson should never have got a FPN and neither should SKS. I can't believe Sunak got issued with one - poor bugger. For Sunak to get one this must amount to the strictest draconian application of the laws, well after the event - and in the context of none - yes nil - new infections in London on that particular day. I don't mean nil deaths I mean nil new infections.

    Also worth mentioning that Johnson's birthday "party" was reported at the time and no-one gave a monkey's.
    These shenanigans have turned the country into a laughing stock.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 78,843
    Presumably if Keir gets a fine Boris will jump in to defend him and say he shouldn't resign? He cannot very well claim it's an outrage to get a fine, nor can he praise it as an honourable decision to stand down.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 25,994
    edited May 8

    Stocky said:

    kjh said:

    Taz said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheer hypocrisy too.
    There is also the lie about Rayner not being there.

    It seems there are several inconsistencies in the story here which doesn’t help.

    I have said I think there is nothing to this and there may well not be but labour have handled this appallingly.
    Re Rayner the absurdity of the denial is that she is actually referenced with Starmer on the heading of this leaked memo
    Not that I think it matters one iota, but for goodness sake was Rayner there or not. Wish they would make up their minds. She was there, then she wasn't, now she is again.
    She was there and it matters as she is likely to receive a FPN if Starmer does
    It's all bollox.

    The police shouldn't be investigating, Johnson should never have got a FPN and neither should SKS. I can't believe Sunak got issued with one - poor bugger. For Sunak to get one this must amount to the strictest draconian application of the laws, well after the event - and in the context of none - yes nil - new infections in London on that particular day. I don't mean nil deaths I mean nil new infections.

    Also worth mentioning that Johnson's birthday "party" was reported at the time and no-one gave a monkey's.
    I have commented several times the idea the PM, COE, and leader and deputy leader of the labour party should lose their jobs over a FPN is surreal and it must not happen in the future in any health crisis
    Spare us the catering pack of sliced onions. There is always a health crisis somewhere in the UK.

    You'll be saying that HMG cabinet ministers shouldn't lose their jobs for accepting bribes for themselves and the Party, allowing the fiddling of payments to their political chums for dodgy PPE, and barbecuing kittens in the No 10 garden next.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 6,813

    The Welsh LibDems are already in trouble.

    Their newly elected councillor for Disserth & Trecoed on Powys CC, who goes by the name of Little-One Brighouse

    https://www.brlibdems.org.uk/disserth

    is thrown out of the party for antisemitic TikTok videos.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 37,175

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    So according to their own written records this was planned food and drink at the end of the day, with no work scheduled for afterwards?

    I can't see any difference between this and the BYOB party now to be honest.

    You can’t tell the difference between a meal and a ‘party? Breakfast must be a hoot round your place this morning.
    An hour and a half scheduled for food and drinks at the end of the day, after work has finished.

    How is that not a party, but having food at 1pm and then returning to work is?

    They held an after work party and had no intention of returning to work after their party.
    Done that plenty of times at work after a long slog at work in workshops and meetings. It’s about grabbing some sustenance and talking about the work informally before crawling into bed. Did it last week, when the boss came over from Germany. The last thing it is, is a party.
    That's not what you were saying when the conversation was about Downing Street though was it? 🤔
    Indeed, because the facts are different.
    The prime fact being that this event involved someone with a red rosette while the others involved people with a blue one?
    Nah. In this country the buck stops with the Prime Minister, not the leader of the opposition.

    (Snip)
    WTAF! Are you aware of what you're saying? The LOTO can break any law the government brings in - even if he votes for that law himself - because 'the buck stops with the PM' ?
    I fully expect the loto to resign if he receives a fpn because I think he honestly thought that it was meal in a work event, but being a former cps he would stand by the law. It does mean that everyone who was at work during the time and had a shared lunch in the workplace is guilty as well.
    Not really, if the assumption is that people go back to work after a lunch. Most workplaces do not allow booze during work hours (and rightly so IMO). In both the No. 10 and Durham cases, the presence of alcohol blows the 'work' excuse out of the water. But at least the No. 10 events occurred in the middle of the day, when going back to work was an option.

    It wasn't in the Durham case. Unless that time I got pi**ed at the Fort St George and talked about some coding problems with an equally-drunk colleague one night could be called 'work'.

    Neither event should have been illegal, given the situation. But Labour made it an issue, and they're getting caught out by their own witch hunt.
    But alcohol is an integral part of many political working days, often because such days do extend well into the night - see votes in the House of Commons, for example. Beer and sandwiches at Downing Street were a staple of the Wilson and Callaghan years; Johnson himself has been photographed many times drinking alcohol while working.

  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 2,073

    kjh said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheer hypocrisy too.
    Starmer has to go, but your hyperbole is ludicrous.

    If this work event crossed the line and rules were breached which may be the case, so be it, but for you to then assert it is worse than multiple events attended, and or arranged by Johnson, who also lied to Parliament it has to be said, is absurd.

    Why does Starmer have to go but Johnson can stay? Starmer set the bar to judge Johnson. Starmer being compromised by this incident neutralises any attack he can make on Johnson when more fines and the Gray Report are released. And of course the killer, rules don't apply to Boris Johnson.
    Johnson has only been 'done' for one event so far. The odds are that he'll be done for more - but who knows what'll come out about Starmer's behaviour? (nudge, nudge, wink, wink).

    But IMV the Durham event was worse than the No. 10 ones.
    How on earth is it worse than having a DJ/Disco, wine in a suitcase, BYOB, 100 invited, etc.
    Because the purpose of the law was to avoid spreading the virus. Both events risked that, but the Durham event involved people from all over the country, making any spreading event potentially much worse. AIUI the No.10 thing involved people from the immediate area, who worked and lived at it.
    It appears we await more details of “beergate”. We definitely still await more details of the twelve No. 10 gatherings under police investigation.

    As I understand it, the Durham event involved a group of people who were working together then also eating together. The longer people are together, the greater the chance of spreading the virus, but it’s not a huge additional risk if they’ve been working together for several hours already. If anyone turned up just for the food, that would be more worrying. I’m not aware of that being claimed.

    There were various Downing Street events. Some likewise involved teams who had been working together, so again not a huge additional risk. Some of the Downing Street events, however, brought people together who had not been working together. We’ve talked about Carrie’s presence. The socially distanced drinks in the garden mixed people from across the many different teams working there, although being held outdoors means it was less risky than indoor events. Some of the leaving drinks at No. 10 also seem to have involved bringing people together who were not routinely working together. We need full attendance lists to really assess the issue, but No. 10 have refused to divulge such.

    One can also ask about what happened at these events. Booze was not outlawed, but drunk people will be less careful with social distancing. Some of the more raucous Downing Street events involving singing and breaking garden furniture suggest a greater transmission risk than anything reported from Durham.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 18,804
    edited May 8
    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Birmingham local elections:

    Popular vote [using highest vote method]

    Lab 106,411
    Con 59,604
    LD 31,425
    Green 14,691
    TUSC 963
    Ind 778
    Workers Party Birmingham 455
    We Matter Party 379
    Breakthrough Party 265
    Reform UK 93

    Lab 49.5%
    Con 27.7%
    LD 14.6%
    Green 6.8%
    TUSC 0.4%
    Ind 0.4%
    Workers Party Birmingham 0.2%
    We Matter Party 0.2%
    Breakthrough Party 0.1%
    Reform UK 0.0%


    Changes since 2018:

    Lab -0.8%
    Con -0.9%
    LD +0.5%
    Green +2.4%
    TUSC +0.1%
    Ind -1.4%
    Others +0.0%

    It's tough for new parties, particularly minor ones, but the hubris of your name declaring you as breaking through or mattering does amuse.
    I hadn't thought of it like that. Those parties always do really badly. There was one in Gateshead called "Save Us Now" with 2 candidates. They got 46 and 17 votes respectively.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 9,513

    I don't think it would put Boris in a bind if KS stood down. I think he'd just carry on, because he can. People would say "Boris, you should stand down", and Boris would say "It's more important to deal with more important matter X" and that would be that.

    Not only that, but weirdly I think it could help him. Subconsciously some people would think, "Starmer broke the rules so badly that he had to resign, but Boris only accidentally broke the rules which is why he hasn't."
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 46,536
    Dura_Ace said:

    Was anybody actually daft enough to follow the rules? At the height of lockdown I went to Livingston just to get various car bits zinc plated and to France (twice) via the Rotterdam 'underground railroad'.

    I drove to Dundee in just my underpants and ate a whole Tobolerone.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 16,479
    Taz said:

    Levelling up ideas to regenerate town centres which won’t have wealthy, entitled, southerners jealous resentment over the poorer parts of the country getting a few crumbs off the table.

    https://news.sky.com/story/pm-to-reveal-plans-to-revive-struggling-town-centres-in-queens-speech-12608197

    Compulsory purchase of empty shops. Compulsory rental auctions. So much for property rights. Although Mr Speaker will not be happy that Jeremy Corbyn Boris has told the media before parliament.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 17,823
    edited May 8

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    So according to their own written records this was planned food and drink at the end of the day, with no work scheduled for afterwards?

    I can't see any difference between this and the BYOB party now to be honest.

    You can’t tell the difference between a meal and a ‘party? Breakfast must be a hoot round your place this morning.
    An hour and a half scheduled for food and drinks at the end of the day, after work has finished.

    How is that not a party, but having food at 1pm and then returning to work is?

    They held an after work party and had no intention of returning to work after their party.
    Done that plenty of times at work after a long slog at work in workshops and meetings. It’s about grabbing some sustenance and talking about the work informally before crawling into bed. Did it last week, when the boss came over from Germany. The last thing it is, is a party.
    That's not what you were saying when the conversation was about Downing Street though was it? 🤔
    Indeed, because the facts are different.
    The prime fact being that this event involved someone with a red rosette while the others involved people with a blue one?
    Nah. In this country the buck stops with the Prime Minister, not the leader of the opposition.

    (Snip)
    WTAF! Are you aware of what you're saying? The LOTO can break any law the government brings in - even if he votes for that law himself - because 'the buck stops with the PM' ?
    I fully expect the loto to resign if he receives a fpn because I think he honestly thought that it was meal in a work event, but being a former cps he would stand by the law. It does mean that everyone who was at work during the time and had a shared lunch in the workplace is guilty as well.
    Not really, if the assumption is that people go back to work after a lunch. Most workplaces do not allow booze during work hours (and rightly so IMO). In both the No. 10 and Durham cases, the presence of alcohol blows the 'work' excuse out of the water. But at least the No. 10 events occurred in the middle of the day, when going back to work was an option.

    It wasn't in the Durham case. Unless that time I got pi**ed at the Fort St George and talked about some coding problems with an equally-drunk colleague one night could be called 'work'.

    Neither event should have been illegal, given the situation. But Labour made it an issue, and they're getting caught out by their own witch hunt.
    The pre-invited bring a bottle parties that Johnson either attended or was aware of and then lying about them to Parliament is what should bring Johnson down, but it won't because rules and precedents don't apply to Johnson.

    But as the Met went for the "ambushed by cake" event, the reality of which appears somewhat different to the No 10 spin, Starmer's event on the surface at least seems similar, so Durham Constabulary can bang him to rights if they so wish.

    Should Starmer decline an FPN, how confident are we that it would reach the threshold for court? Isn't that the measure by which an FPN would be issued?

    Nonetheless before all that Starmer is finished, he needs to at least attempt to steal the high ground and resign, damaging Johnson further.

    I anticipate a Conservative lead in the next set of polls, although it will be short lived, unless Zelensky can quickly win the Ukraine war for Johnson.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 18,804
    edited May 8
    This no booze at lunchtime rule seems really puritanical to me, the sort of thing that started in the United States about 40 years ago and then slowly spread to everywhere else in the Anglosphere.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 54,002
    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    kjh said:

    Taz said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheer hypocrisy too.
    There is also the lie about Rayner not being there.

    It seems there are several inconsistencies in the story here which doesn’t help.

    I have said I think there is nothing to this and there may well not be but labour have handled this appallingly.
    Re Rayner the absurdity of the denial is that she is actually referenced with Starmer on the heading of this leaked memo
    Not that I think it matters one iota, but for goodness sake was Rayner there or not. Wish they would make up their minds. She was there, then she wasn't, now she is again.
    She was there and it matters as she is likely to receive a FPN if Starmer does
    It's all bollox.

    The police shouldn't be investigating, Johnson should never have got a FPN and neither should SKS. I can't believe Sunak got issued with one - poor bugger. For Sunak to get one this must amount to the strictest draconian application of the laws, well after the event - and in the context of none - yes nil - new infections in London on that particular day. I don't mean nil deaths I mean nil new infections.

    Also worth mentioning that Johnson's birthday "party" was reported at the time and no-one gave a monkey's.
    I have commented several times the idea the PM, COE, and leader and deputy leader of the labour party should lose their jobs over a FPN is surreal and it must not happen in the future in any health crisis
    Spare us the catering pack of sliced onions. There is always a health crisis somewhere in the UK.

    You'll be saying that HMG cabinet ministers shouldn't lose their jobs for accepting bribes for themselves and the Party, allowing the fiddling of payments to their political chums for dodgy PFE, and barbecuing kittens in the No 10 garden next.
    There has never been such a level of restrictions and criminal sanctions in my lifetime

    As far as your last paragraph is concerned of course I wouldn't
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 8,227
    kle4 said:

    Presumably if Keir gets a fine Boris will jump in to defend him and say he shouldn't resign? He cannot very well claim it's an outrage to get a fine, nor can he praise it as an honourable decision to stand down.

    There's a certain life lesson here that in general being "the bigger person" can serve your own self interest.

    When Boris was fined for breaking the rules then he was seriously damaged. Starmer had no need to go in with a two footed challenge himself, rejecting the apology, which has now come back to haunt him as his own words are thrown back at him.

    Starmer could have been the bigger person and accepted the apology. Being cynical he could have done so while leaving it to his "attack dogs" on social media, the media and his MPs to do the attacks against Boris.

    If Starmer had been the bigger person and accepted Boris's apology, this would not be a story now and if it became (a much smaller one) he could just issue his own apology to get rid of it and the precedent would have been set and the story would just look stupid after that.
  • pingping Posts: 2,659
    edited May 8
    Dura_Ace said:

    Was anybody actually daft enough to follow the rules? At the height of lockdown I went to Livingston just to get various car bits zinc plated and to France (twice) via the Rotterdam 'underground railroad'.

    Of course not.

    People are complete hypocrites. Pretty much everyone broke the rules to varying degrees.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 25,994

    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    kjh said:

    Taz said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheer hypocrisy too.
    There is also the lie about Rayner not being there.

    It seems there are several inconsistencies in the story here which doesn’t help.

    I have said I think there is nothing to this and there may well not be but labour have handled this appallingly.
    Re Rayner the absurdity of the denial is that she is actually referenced with Starmer on the heading of this leaked memo
    Not that I think it matters one iota, but for goodness sake was Rayner there or not. Wish they would make up their minds. She was there, then she wasn't, now she is again.
    She was there and it matters as she is likely to receive a FPN if Starmer does
    It's all bollox.

    The police shouldn't be investigating, Johnson should never have got a FPN and neither should SKS. I can't believe Sunak got issued with one - poor bugger. For Sunak to get one this must amount to the strictest draconian application of the laws, well after the event - and in the context of none - yes nil - new infections in London on that particular day. I don't mean nil deaths I mean nil new infections.

    Also worth mentioning that Johnson's birthday "party" was reported at the time and no-one gave a monkey's.
    I have commented several times the idea the PM, COE, and leader and deputy leader of the labour party should lose their jobs over a FPN is surreal and it must not happen in the future in any health crisis
    Spare us the catering pack of sliced onions. There is always a health crisis somewhere in the UK.

    You'll be saying that HMG cabinet ministers shouldn't lose their jobs for accepting bribes for themselves and the Party, allowing the fiddling of payments to their political chums for dodgy PFE, and barbecuing kittens in the No 10 garden next.
    There has never been such a level of restrictions and criminal sanctions in my lifetime

    As far as your last paragraph is concerned of course I wouldn't
    Actually, there has. WW2. When someone got banged up for refusing to put a bus ticket in a recycling bin and then arguing about it. But that was before you got interested in politics, tbf!
  • StockyStocky Posts: 8,431
    edited May 8
    Dura_Ace said:

    Was anybody actually daft enough to follow the rules? At the height of lockdown I went to Livingston just to get various car bits zinc plated and to France (twice) via the Rotterdam 'underground railroad'.

    Well, I'm with you as you can probably guess. What gets me the most is when people say they couldn't visit a parent in need - fuck off! - wild horses couldn't keep me from visiting one of my parents in need. And don't get me started on the inability to see my mum in her care home, who now has dementia and can't remember my name. I was stopped from visiting her, not because I couldn't leave my house or dodge the police and travel the 200 miles to visit, but because the care home - a fucking private company - was blocking my path and I could do nothing about it.

    Even though it was not my fault and I tried the best I could I will never forgive myself for not visiting my mum during the last useful year and a half of her life.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 78,843
    geoffw said:

    Stocky said:

    kjh said:

    Taz said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheer hypocrisy too.
    There is also the lie about Rayner not being there.

    It seems there are several inconsistencies in the story here which doesn’t help.

    I have said I think there is nothing to this and there may well not be but labour have handled this appallingly.
    Re Rayner the absurdity of the denial is that she is actually referenced with Starmer on the heading of this leaked memo
    Not that I think it matters one iota, but for goodness sake was Rayner there or not. Wish they would make up their minds. She was there, then she wasn't, now she is again.
    She was there and it matters as she is likely to receive a FPN if Starmer does
    It's all bollox.

    The police shouldn't be investigating, Johnson should never have got a FPN and neither should SKS. I can't believe Sunak got issued with one - poor bugger. For Sunak to get one this must amount to the strictest draconian application of the laws, well after the event - and in the context of none - yes nil - new infections in London on that particular day. I don't mean nil deaths I mean nil new infections.

    Also worth mentioning that Johnson's birthday "party" was reported at the time and no-one gave a monkey's.
    These shenanigans have turned the country into a laughing stock.

    I think its positive that even the highest figures are facing political heat for at best an uncaring approach to the law, even in very small incidents. We dont have massive corruption generally (Tower Hamlets aside) but whilst you can go too far, at present at least theres still some attempt to care about standards (albeit not from the top, given the tried to sabotage the whole process for a mate, probably with a view to undercutting any future issues).

    Let the small stuff go and the big stuff will follow.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 17,823

    I don't think it would put Boris in a bind if KS stood down. I think he'd just carry on, because he can. People would say "Boris, you should stand down", and Boris would say "It's more important to deal with more important matter X" and that would be that.

    Not only that, but weirdly I think it could help him. Subconsciously some people would think, "Starmer broke the rules so badly that he had to resign, but Boris only accidentally broke the rules which is why he hasn't."
    You are taking the voters for fools, only fully signed up Johnsonians would believe that line.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 18,793
    kle4 said:

    geoffw said:

    Stocky said:

    kjh said:

    Taz said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    felix said:


    Truly amazing how stupid our politicians are.

    When I saw all the partying at No 10 ... I thought, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    Now I see the party at Durham ... I think, 'How stupid these people are? Did they really think they could get away with it'.

    No wonder the UK is such a mess, it really is run by stupid and stupider.

    (Is Ed Davey really is to dull to be embroiled in a LibDem Tofu-gate. That must surely be next.)

    Whatever happens now it is worth reminding ourselves that politics rarely runs in a straight line for any length of time and certainties about future election results are way off the line. The only time you can truly tell when politicians are telling fibs is when they open their mouths.
    TBF, it must be almost impossible for a politician to run their lives perfectly when trying to run a top job. The amount of undeserved ordure they get dumped on them by opponents (and not just those in another party) is amazing.

    Remember the controversy of Boris' bike ride during lockdown? How dare he?

    On the previous thread, someone expressed that Starmer was running the campaign for a really important by-election. Well, Boris was trying to run the country through a pandemic. The stress on everyone involved must have been immense.

    We want politicians to be 'like' us. Yet we also want them to be perfect in all ways. Sadly, I am not perfect. No-one reading this is perfect. If we were put under the same minute critical examination that Johnson, Starmer or any top politician has been, then we would have stories about us.

    Very few people are angels. And they might not have the skills needed to run a country.
    There's a lot to nail Boris for. But, "partygate" is small beer. It ought to be small beer for Starmer, but then, he's made so much of the issue.
    It’s not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations, like not visiting dying relatives for example. Those that make the law should follow the law. If it was a bad law, that is the fault of the law maker.
    Well, the same applies to Starmer, doesn't it? Why were people getting pi**ed at a do whilst others could not visit dying relatives? That's not small beer to those who had to struggle with the regulations.

    Starmer voted for the law. Did he say it was a bad law when he voted for it (I assume not, but someone'll have more info.)

    Starmer and Labour have been caught by their own witch hunt. It is pure incompetence on their part not to realise the trap they had laid for themselves.
    Personally I think it’s less serious than a PM disobeying his own law, but as LoO Starmer also has some responsibility here. It doesn’t rally matter in any case politically after Starmer called for the PM to resign.

    If Starmer is fined, the wise move politically might be to resign. If Starmer isn’t fined, some people will owe him an apology. Either way Boris should go. His offence is proven and as PM it is the most serious.
    Starmer is a law maker too. If he'd been opposing the restrictions then it would be less serious but he actually was opposing the relaxation of the restrictions after his own party. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's every bit as guilty or more as Boris is. After calling for him to go. Hypocrite.

    Plus he's outright lied about the events saying he was eating between work, when his own memo says the party was at the end of the day. Liar.

    I've said since last year Boris should go, but Starmer is every bit as bad if not worse for the sheer hypocrisy too.
    There is also the lie about Rayner not being there.

    It seems there are several inconsistencies in the story here which doesn’t help.

    I have said I think there is nothing to this and there may well not be but labour have handled this appallingly.
    Re Rayner the absurdity of the denial is that she is actually referenced with Starmer on the heading of this leaked memo
    Not that I think it matters one iota, but for goodness sake was Rayner there or not. Wish they would make up their minds. She was there, then she wasn't, now she is again.
    She was there and it matters as she is likely to receive a FPN if Starmer does
    It's all bollox.

    The police shouldn't be investigating, Johnson should never have got a FPN and neither should SKS. I can't believe Sunak got issued with one - poor bugger. For Sunak to get one this must amount to the strictest draconian application of the laws, well after the event - and in the context of none - yes nil - new infections in London on that particular day. I don't mean nil deaths I mean nil new infections.

    Also worth mentioning that Johnson's birthday "party" was reported at the time and no-one gave a monkey's.
    These shenanigans have turned the country into a laughing stock.

    I think its positive that even the highest figures are facing political heat for at best an uncaring approach to the law, even in very small incidents. We dont have massive corruption generally (Tower Hamlets aside) but whilst you can go too far, at present at least theres still some attempt to care about standards (albeit not from the top, given the tried to sabotage the whole process for a mate, probably with a view to undercutting any future issues).

    Let the small stuff go and the big stuff will follow.
    Wouldn’t happen in Russia. That’s for sure.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 9,513

    Labour performance, in terms of numbers of councillors:

    Welsh Labour +14.3%
    Scottish Labour +7.6%
    English Labour +1.3%

    I think it is fair to conclude that Drakeford is Labour’s best leader, and Starmer is a dud.

    Up 1.3% against an horrifically poor Tory government, mid-term, is just eye-wateringly pathetic.

    Statistically nonsense. It's easier to get larger percentage increases among smaller populations, and a lot more people voted in London than in Wales, let alone England as a whole.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 17,823

    kle4 said:

    Presumably if Keir gets a fine Boris will jump in to defend him and say he shouldn't resign? He cannot very well claim it's an outrage to get a fine, nor can he praise it as an honourable decision to stand down.

    There's a certain life lesson here that in general being "the bigger person" can serve your own self interest.

    When Boris was fined for breaking the rules then he was seriously damaged. Starmer had no need to go in with a two footed challenge himself, rejecting the apology, which has now come back to haunt him as his own words are thrown back at him.

    Starmer could have been the bigger person and accepted the apology. Being cynical he could have done so while leaving it to his "attack dogs" on social media, the media and his MPs to do the attacks against Boris.

    If Starmer had been the bigger person and accepted Boris's apology, this would not be a story now and if it became (a much smaller one) he could just issue his own apology to get rid of it and the precedent would have been set and the story would just look stupid after that.
    You are on fire today! Be careful of the hyperbole burns.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 23,445
    Wordle today...

    Taz said:

    Levelling up ideas to regenerate town centres which won’t have wealthy, entitled, southerners jealous resentment over the poorer parts of the country getting a few crumbs off the table.

    https://news.sky.com/story/pm-to-reveal-plans-to-revive-struggling-town-centres-in-queens-speech-12608197

    Compulsory purchase of empty shops. Compulsory rental auctions. So much for property rights. Although Mr Speaker will not be happy that Jeremy Corbyn Boris has told the media before parliament.
    Far be it from me to quibble.
    But surely shops are empty because no one wants to rent them?
    Unless this bill comes with demolition or change of use powers.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 2,073

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    So according to their own written records this was planned food and drink at the end of the day, with no work scheduled for afterwards?

    I can't see any difference between this and the BYOB party now to be honest.

    You can’t tell the difference between a meal and a ‘party? Breakfast must be a hoot round your place this morning.
    An hour and a half scheduled for food and drinks at the end of the day, after work has finished.

    How is that not a party, but having food at 1pm and then returning to work is?

    They held an after work party and had no intention of returning to work after their party.
    Done that plenty of times at work after a long slog at work in workshops and meetings. It’s about grabbing some sustenance and talking about the work informally before crawling into bed. Did it last week, when the boss came over from Germany. The last thing it is, is a party.
    That's not what you were saying when the conversation was about Downing Street though was it? 🤔
    Indeed, because the facts are different.
    The prime fact being that this event involved someone with a red rosette while the others involved people with a blue one?
    Nah. In this country the buck stops with the Prime Minister, not the leader of the opposition.

    (Snip)
    WTAF! Are you aware of what you're saying? The LOTO can break any law the government brings in - even if he votes for that law himself - because 'the buck stops with the PM' ?
    I fully expect the loto to resign if he receives a fpn because I think he honestly thought that it was meal in a work event, but being a former cps he would stand by the law. It does mean that everyone who was at work during the time and had a shared lunch in the workplace is guilty as well.
    Not really, if the assumption is that people go back to work after a lunch. Most workplaces do not allow booze during work hours (and rightly so IMO). In both the No. 10 and Durham cases, the presence of alcohol blows the 'work' excuse out of the water. But at least the No. 10 events occurred in the middle of the day, when going back to work was an option.

    It wasn't in the Durham case. Unless that time I got pi**ed at the Fort St George and talked about some coding problems with an equally-drunk colleague one night could be called 'work'.

    Neither event should have been illegal, given the situation. But Labour made it an issue, and they're getting caught out by their own witch hunt.
    The majority of the No. 10 gatherings that have been under police investigation were at the end of the day. The 18 June 2020 event, both 13 November 2020 events, the 15 December 2020 Xmas quiz, both 17 December 2020 events, the 18 December 2020 cheese and wine night, the 14 January 2021 leaving party, and the 16 April 2021 leaving parties were all after usual working hours.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 78,843
    Andy_JS said:

    This no booze at lunchtime rule seems really puritanical to me, the sort of thing that started in the United States about 40 years ago and then slowly spread to everywhere else in the Anglosphere.

    Seems perfectly reasonable to me. You dont need to get pissed during the working day, and if you werent intending to get pissed who cares if you have to have a coke not a beer?
This discussion has been closed.