And what about the wine party the Met said was "necessary for work" despite Carrie and baby being there. The Met said no fine and no investigation, will they now re-open it?
Strange how the PB Tories are oddly quiet on this?
Was Johnson's pub visit to Hartlepool the following week within the letter of the law?
I am surprised, no shocked, that BigG. is not demanding an investigation.
Still think Cooper coronation is the likeliest outcome if Starmer resigned. I don't think PLP really fancies a lengthy leadership contest which will involve considerable navel gazing and will distract the party for months. Then there's fact it might take a while for an inexperienced new leader to adapt to the role. So, I suspect the PLP will rally round a candidate who has a considerable experience in front bench roles and who'd be able to take Boris on from the off. With Burnham not being an MP, then only Yvette really fits that profile. The Socialist Campaign Group would try and fail to get a candidate on the ballot. The PLP surely aren't going to be stupid enough to lend nominations to 'broaden the debate' this time. Yvette Cooper as next PM looks a value bet, for me.
Yeah, I'd like to hear Malky's view on it too. It never ceases to strike me how effective Sturgeon is. I've said in the past that I admire her. A measure of her success is the way the Conservatives were over the moon with the 2017 results and now in 2022 Labour also very pleased at wresting 2nd place back off them. When your opponents are pleased with second, it says a lot.
Salmond is just the latest in a long line of politicians who've tried to take her down and ended up in a crumpled heap instead. Whether you like her or not, her electoral record is astonishing.
EDIT Too slow, Malky's thoughts now apparent.
NS is a political colossus, no doubt, but her success is built on the foundation of conspicuously wanting, but not actually doing much to get, independence. While that approach has been electorally successful for a very long time it must run out of steam at some point.
It's one of the reasons I think Johnson would be happy to offer an indyref to the SNP as the price of confidence and support. He knows NS doesn't really want one and he'd believe, with some justification, that he could win it anyway.
The other reason he might do it is that he doesn't give a fuck about Scotland. That country being a minor subset of the many things that aren't Boris Johnson that he doesn't give a fuck about.
I hear it so much it makes me doubt myself, but I'm still quite convinced that this is a mistaken view. I detect a real eagerness for a vote from the SNP leadership, but they've put the lid on it because of Covid. Now the locals are out of the way, we'll see whether I'm right or wrong. I expect a big move before the summer is out. If we get to September and it's all tumbleweed, you're right and I'm wrong.
EDIT: rethinking slightly, by the end of the conference, when is that, October?
On topic, IF Starmer goes and Rayner is in the same boat/curry club, then (since apparently being a woman is the only criteria) the options surely are:
Reeves Cooper Nandy
That order is my preference, though I suspect Nandy would win as she's norvern, innit?
Nandy wouldn't win, she is a complete lightweight and she didn't do that well in 2020 either, even Long Bailey beat her with Labour members let alone Starmer.
I would add Streeting to Reeves and Cooper though I think Boris and Starmer stay until the next general election
Point of order, when it comes to factional contests, the order of the candidates is less important than the order of the factions. If you reran 2020 just removing Starmer, Nandy would pick up a huge number of the Starmer votes and leapfrog RLB. Easily.
RLB won't stand, Reeves, Cooper or Streeting would easily defeat Nandy and pick up most Starmer votes, Burnham would pick up more northern votes if and when he returns to the Commons.
For a Tory councillor, you have an astonishing insight into the minds of Labour members - impressive. But you're wrong on Nandy, who is both capable and popular within the party.
He understands the way politics works and calls it pretty straight.
I think he's wrong about Nandy though, but we shall see....or not, as the (police) case may be.
I'm not disputing his wisdom, I just have a different take. I don't think Burnham or Cooper will succeed Starmer - after all, they couldn't even beat Corbyn back in 2015 or whenever it was. Nandy has as good a chance as any of the remaining contenders.
Yeah, I'd like to hear Malky's view on it too. It never ceases to strike me how effective Sturgeon is. I've said in the past that I admire her. A measure of her success is the way the Conservatives were over the moon with the 2017 results and now in 2022 Labour also very pleased at wresting 2nd place back off them. When your opponents are pleased with second, it says a lot.
Salmond is just the latest in a long line of politicians who've tried to take her down and ended up in a crumpled heap instead. Whether you like her or not, her electoral record is astonishing.
EDIT Too slow, Malky's thoughts now apparent.
NS is a political colossus, no doubt, but her success is built on the foundation of conspicuously wanting, but not actually doing much to get, independence. While that approach has been electorally successful for a very long time it must run out of steam at some point.
It's one of the reasons I think Johnson would be happy to offer an indyref to the SNP as the price of confidence and support. He knows NS doesn't really want one and he'd believe, with some justification, that he could win it anyway.
The other reason he might do it is that he doesn't give a fuck about Scotland. That country being a minor subset of the many things that aren't Boris Johnson that he doesn't give a fuck about.
We would go into opposition rather than do any deals with the SNP. I would not accept any Tory leader allowing an indyref2 for a generation as Boris had also made clear he won't.
There is also no way the SNP would tolerate any deals with the Tories and it would not even be a consideration unless the Conservatives were largest party which on current polling they clearly are not
Sunday Times claims Boris Johnson personally "despises" his opposite number. An ally says: "He genuinely does not like Keir. He sees this man as part of a privileged, metropolitan, narrow-minded elite uncomfortable with the raw instincts of the vast majority of British people."
Coming very late to this discussion due to work so probably everything has already been said. But I do hope TSE is right and Starmer does do he right thing and stand down if he is fined. I have no particular like or dislike for Starmer and think it would maybe be a bit of a shame if he were to go but it would be the right thing to do and, to my mind, would hopefully precipitate the end of Johnson. That seems to be very much a sacrifice worth Starmer making for the sake of the country.
Of course I presume this would also mean Angela Rayner going but again I am not really fussed one way or another about that. Undermining Johnson's ridiculous position seems to me to be the great prize in this game.
I very much doubt Johnson will resign in any case. The interesting question to me is whether Starmer going in the case of getting a FPN (which I think is more likely not to happen but Durham Police will make the call on that ) - will that weaken the Labour Party because Starmer is actually not bad or because of the turmoil? Or would Labour be strengthened by getting a different leader, presumably to the detriment of the Tories.
Yeah, I'd like to hear Malky's view on it too. It never ceases to strike me how effective Sturgeon is. I've said in the past that I admire her. A measure of her success is the way the Conservatives were over the moon with the 2017 results and now in 2022 Labour also very pleased at wresting 2nd place back off them. When your opponents are pleased with second, it says a lot.
Salmond is just the latest in a long line of politicians who've tried to take her down and ended up in a crumpled heap instead. Whether you like her or not, her electoral record is astonishing.
EDIT Too slow, Malky's thoughts now apparent.
NS is a political colossus, no doubt, but her success is built on the foundation of conspicuously wanting, but not actually doing much to get, independence. While that approach has been electorally successful for a very long time it must run out of steam at some point.
It's one of the reasons I think Johnson would be happy to offer an indyref to the SNP as the price of confidence and support. He knows NS doesn't really want one and he'd believe, with some justification, that he could win it anyway.
The other reason he might do it is that he doesn't give a fuck about Scotland. That country being a minor subset of the many things that aren't Boris Johnson that he doesn't give a fuck about.
We would go into opposition rather than do any deals with the SNP. I would not accept any Tory leader allowing an indyref2 for a generation as Boris had also made clear he won't.
There is also no way the SNP would tolerate any deals with the Tories and it would not even be a consideration unless the Conservatives were largest party which on current polling they clearly are not
HYUFD is back on his usual form and I have my HYUFD Indy Bingo card half filled in already!
On topic, IF Starmer goes and Rayner is in the same boat/curry club, then (since apparently being a woman is the only criteria) the options surely are:
Reeves Cooper Nandy
That order is my preference, though I suspect Nandy would win as she's norvern, innit?
Nandy wouldn't win, she is a complete lightweight and she didn't do that well in 2020 either, even Long Bailey beat her with Labour members let alone Starmer.
I would add Streeting to Reeves and Cooper though I think Boris and Starmer stay until the next general election
Point of order, when it comes to factional contests, the order of the candidates is less important than the order of the factions. If you reran 2020 just removing Starmer, Nandy would pick up a huge number of the Starmer votes and leapfrog RLB. Easily.
RLB won't stand, Reeves, Cooper or Streeting would easily defeat Nandy and pick up most Starmer votes, Burnham would pick up more northern votes if and when he returns to the Commons.
For a Tory councillor, you have an astonishing insight into the minds of Labour members - impressive. But you're wrong on Nandy, who is both capable and popular within the party.
She only got 16% in 2020 from Labour members, she is too Brexity for the current Labour membership as Hunt is too Remain for the current Tory membership
Doxxing is not fine. So we should stop it. Calling someone "a twat" IS fine, clearly, otherwise 90% of my commentary is forbidden
As for @Heathener I agree with @NickPalmer. I used to think she was a troll, but I don't any more. If she is a Russian troll, she's not very good, she barely mentions anything-to-do-with Russia from one week to the next. She seems to be what she says she is, an opinionated Labour supporting woman with a fondness for Buddhism, she might be eccentric, but we are all eccentric - we're on here, for a start
Peace!
Technical question, if someone has used a series of made up usernames previously, can referring to them truly be said to be doxxing? Not that I’m suggesting that you’re an expert or anything.
"Scientists Say There’s an ‘Anti-Universe’ Running Backward in Time
"Could it be that a newly discovered “anti-universe” might run parallel to our own universe? If so, it would essentially spread out “backward” in time, prior to the Big Bang, in the same way our universe progressed “forward” in time."
Doxxing is not fine. So we should stop it. Calling someone "a twat" IS fine, clearly, otherwise 90% of my commentary is forbidden
As for @Heathener I agree with @NickPalmer. I used to think she was a troll, but I don't any more. If she is a Russian troll, she's not very good, she barely mentions anything-to-do-with Russia from one week to the next. She seems to be what she says she is, an opinionated Labour supporting woman with a fondness for Buddhism, she might be eccentric, but we are all eccentric - we're on here, for a start
Peace!
Technical question, if someone has used a series of made up usernames previously, can referring to them truly be said to be doxxing? Not that I’m suggesting that you’re an expert or anything.
Normally, no. But if one of the the previous usernames points to a meatspace identity, then yes.
On topic, IF Starmer goes and Rayner is in the same boat/curry club, then (since apparently being a woman is the only criteria) the options surely are:
Reeves Cooper Nandy
That order is my preference, though I suspect Nandy would win as she's norvern, innit?
Nandy wouldn't win, she is a complete lightweight and she didn't do that well in 2020 either, even Long Bailey beat her with Labour members let alone Starmer.
I would add Streeting to Reeves and Cooper though I think Boris and Starmer stay until the next general election
Point of order, when it comes to factional contests, the order of the candidates is less important than the order of the factions. If you reran 2020 just removing Starmer, Nandy would pick up a huge number of the Starmer votes and leapfrog RLB. Easily.
RLB won't stand, Reeves, Cooper or Streeting would easily defeat Nandy and pick up most Starmer votes, Burnham would pick up more northern votes if and when he returns to the Commons.
For a Tory councillor, you have an astonishing insight into the minds of Labour members - impressive. But you're wrong on Nandy, who is both capable and popular within the party.
She only got 16% in 2020 from Labour members, she is too Brexity for the current Labour membership as Hunt is too Remain for the current Tory membership
Hi HYUFD hope you are staying well.
It's not Brexit for Nandy, it's that she has no ideas and isn't a good public speaker. I actually think she'd be worse than Starmer.
. A Starmer FPN and he goes. Replace with Andy Burnham
Under NO circumstances:
He failed massively to win last time. Why? Because he is no bloody good.
He's not even an MP. Duh.
He will put off all the new Labour voters down sarf. And we still need them.
He has a penis.
So in the words of Maggie, 'No. No. No.'
What the fuck difference does it make that "he has a penis"? Are you high?
Says a man. And a tory man at that.
It makes 'the fuck difference' because Labour MUST choose a woman as next leader.
End of.
And I'm a Labour supporter. You're not. So piss off.
xx
Given that your party can't define what a woman is it's all a bit academic isn't it?
Non sequitur.
We need our next leader to be a woman. Whether that's someone who is a trans woman is another issue but I doubt the red wall thickos like Fucker Faroq would cope with it.
Next Labour leader must be a woman. End of.
Must be hard to keep track of your lines to take today, Vlad.
Yeah right Phillip Thompson.
See? Two can play the game.
The next Labour leader must and will be a woman. Sorry that this is causing such confusion for the right wing gammons.
Have a nice day folks.
Off out to walk around Hook Heath. I guess I could meet up with tlg86 some time and then that really will make you 'you're a troll' tories look even more stupid and dumbass than you already are (if that's poss.)
@PBModerator has said it's against the rules to doxx people.
Hoist with your own petard situation I'd have thought if you want to call vlad
Only if he genuinely is Vlad though.
One is a joke, a turn of phrase, the other is doxxing with full name.
Oh how we laughed and why should they be a "he"
Malcolm, do you think Alba still have a future after these elections? Not a single councillor in the whole of Scotland and some truly embarrassing figures in individual constituencies. It seems as if the SNP have drilled loyalty into their membership too well for a break off to thrive.
Looks a forlorn hope David. Looks like it will need to be Labour that cleanse the SNP ( the sheeple seem to forgive every useless policy , disaster , etc). If only they had a backbone and some independent thinking rather than just London clones. At some point someone with brains will get them out of just being patsies taking orders. They need to swing at least some way to independence , full fiscal autonomy or they will get nowhere. SNP are useless till Sturgeon and her clique of crooks, rogues and self ider's are history. She must fall soon , no-one can keep all that manure hidden forever. Meanwhile Scotland burns, gets ever more like a basket case that deserves to be just a colony.
Surely if you are a nationalist and dislike Sturgeon you already have a successful party to vote for - the Scottish Greens. I'm not a nat but recognise the clear electoral mandate last year for a 2nd referendum. Dodgy Alex and his cult weren't needed to deliver that, so why care that they have largely died out?
The Scottish Greens are ridiculously Woke, especially on things like Trans - they are even Wokier than the SNP (which is going some)
I don't think @malcolmg is particularly Woke, so I see his dilemma. Alba promised to be the non-Woke Nats, but they've now evanesced
We all take your perspective on Woke u Der advisement.
In the real world there are two established nationalist parties and there wasn't room for a third.
But both indy parties are social democratic leftwing parties
What about economic and cultural conservatives who also like indy? What should they do? Grin and bear it forever?
It is a problem for the cause
What is conservative about breaking up the union? There are no right wing nat parties because it's not a right wing position.
Then again, with right wing conservatives now arguing for the merits of trade barriers and costly red tape anything is possible...
What a cringingly stupid remark
I think he's got a point. A conservative position is to persist and preserve things that are not obviously broken. The state of the union is an interesting one because there are arguments both ways but living in Scotland I can tell you that, despite your view of the house colours in Wick, it's not all dreary and horrible. It works, to some extent. So a natural conservative position is, don't overthrow this, it's working. So what is the conservative argument for independence? I can come up with a couple of weakish ones, but they're not altogether convincing.
Well I suppose if you were very conservative you could make the case that the Union as a whole had always been a mistake, and so opposing the Act of Union as a radical innovation.
But it's a mistake to identify the right-wing as always being small 'c' conservatives. The Right can be very radical when they want to. And in general the Right tend to make the argument of drawing a tighter circle of empathy and leaving more people on the outside, so it goes quite naturally with nationalism. I find it very easy to see the right-wing case for Scottish independence.
It's the left-wing argument for Scottish independence that I find hard to understand. What part of "Workers of the World Unite" involves creating a new border on the island of Britain?
If Scots and English can't cooperate then what chance for cooperating across greater cultural differences?
Sunday Times claims Boris Johnson personally "despises" his opposite number. An ally says: "He genuinely does not like Keir. He sees this man as part of a privileged, metropolitan, narrow-minded elite uncomfortable with the raw instincts of the vast majority of British people."
Yeah, I'd like to hear Malky's view on it too. It never ceases to strike me how effective Sturgeon is. I've said in the past that I admire her. A measure of her success is the way the Conservatives were over the moon with the 2017 results and now in 2022 Labour also very pleased at wresting 2nd place back off them. When your opponents are pleased with second, it says a lot.
Salmond is just the latest in a long line of politicians who've tried to take her down and ended up in a crumpled heap instead. Whether you like her or not, her electoral record is astonishing.
EDIT Too slow, Malky's thoughts now apparent.
NS is a political colossus, no doubt, but her success is built on the foundation of conspicuously wanting, but not actually doing much to get, independence. While that approach has been electorally successful for a very long time it must run out of steam at some point.
It's one of the reasons I think Johnson would be happy to offer an indyref to the SNP as the price of confidence and support. He knows NS doesn't really want one and he'd believe, with some justification, that he could win it anyway.
The other reason he might do it is that he doesn't give a fuck about Scotland. That country being a minor subset of the many things that aren't Boris Johnson that he doesn't give a fuck about.
I hear it so much it makes me doubt myself, but I'm still quite convinced that this is a mistaken view. I detect a real eagerness for a vote from the SNP leadership, but they've put the lid on it because of Covid. Now the locals are out of the way, we'll see whether I'm right or wrong. I expect a big move before the summer is out. If we get to September and it's all tumbleweed, you're right and I'm wrong.
EDIT: rethinking slightly, by the end of the conference, when is that, October?
they have cancelled all conferences nowadays, they don't allow members a say, all run by the woke self id politbureau
"Scientists Say There’s an ‘Anti-Universe’ Running Backward in Time
"Could it be that a newly discovered “anti-universe” might run parallel to our own universe? If so, it would essentially spread out “backward” in time, prior to the Big Bang, in the same way our universe progressed “forward” in time."
Yeah, I'd like to hear Malky's view on it too. It never ceases to strike me how effective Sturgeon is. I've said in the past that I admire her. A measure of her success is the way the Conservatives were over the moon with the 2017 results and now in 2022 Labour also very pleased at wresting 2nd place back off them. When your opponents are pleased with second, it says a lot.
Salmond is just the latest in a long line of politicians who've tried to take her down and ended up in a crumpled heap instead. Whether you like her or not, her electoral record is astonishing.
EDIT Too slow, Malky's thoughts now apparent.
NS is a political colossus, no doubt, but her success is built on the foundation of conspicuously wanting, but not actually doing much to get, independence. While that approach has been electorally successful for a very long time it must run out of steam at some point.
It's one of the reasons I think Johnson would be happy to offer an indyref to the SNP as the price of confidence and support. He knows NS doesn't really want one and he'd believe, with some justification, that he could win it anyway.
The other reason he might do it is that he doesn't give a fuck about Scotland. That country being a minor subset of the many things that aren't Boris Johnson that he doesn't give a fuck about.
I hear it so much it makes me doubt myself, but I'm still quite convinced that this is a mistaken view. I detect a real eagerness for a vote from the SNP leadership, but they've put the lid on it because of Covid. Now the locals are out of the way, we'll see whether I'm right or wrong. I expect a big move before the summer is out. If we get to September and it's all tumbleweed, you're right and I'm wrong.
EDIT: rethinking slightly, by the end of the conference, when is that, October?
Fake news, they have been coming up wit hthat year after year, keeps the sheep happy for another year. Has been annual now since 2014.
"Scientists Say There’s an ‘Anti-Universe’ Running Backward in Time
"Could it be that a newly discovered “anti-universe” might run parallel to our own universe? If so, it would essentially spread out “backward” in time, prior to the Big Bang, in the same way our universe progressed “forward” in time."
Does this mean that they only have 3 more years of Boris as PM and we are still at risk of another 6? Lucky sods.
Think of all those poor sods hurtling towards the sickening inevitability of voting for BJ.
In the reverse-time universe, they are voting for him to lose his majority, and for him to pull ideological opponents back into the Conservative Party. A few months later, Conservative members will eject him from office and replace him with Theresa May, who will dance her way back into a majority and hand over to Cam who will heal the country's divides and make the Brexit vote a thing of the past future.
. A Starmer FPN and he goes. Replace with Andy Burnham
Under NO circumstances:
He failed massively to win last time. Why? Because he is no bloody good.
He's not even an MP. Duh.
He will put off all the new Labour voters down sarf. And we still need them.
He has a penis.
So in the words of Maggie, 'No. No. No.'
What the fuck difference does it make that "he has a penis"? Are you high?
Says a man. And a tory man at that.
It makes 'the fuck difference' because Labour MUST choose a woman as next leader.
End of.
And I'm a Labour supporter. You're not. So piss off.
xx
Given that your party can't define what a woman is it's all a bit academic isn't it?
Non sequitur.
We need our next leader to be a woman. Whether that's someone who is a trans woman is another issue but I doubt the red wall thickos like Fucker Faroq would cope with it.
Next Labour leader must be a woman. End of.
Must be hard to keep track of your lines to take today, Vlad.
Yeah right Phillip Thompson.
See? Two can play the game.
The next Labour leader must and will be a woman. Sorry that this is causing such confusion for the right wing gammons.
Have a nice day folks.
Off out to walk around Hook Heath. I guess I could meet up with tlg86 some time and then that really will make you 'you're a troll' tories look even more stupid and dumbass than you already are (if that's poss.)
@PBModerator has said it's against the rules to doxx people.
Hoist with your own petard situation I'd have thought if you want to call vlad
Only if he genuinely is Vlad though.
One is a joke, a turn of phrase, the other is doxxing with full name.
Oh how we laughed and why should they be a "he"
Malcolm, do you think Alba still have a future after these elections? Not a single councillor in the whole of Scotland and some truly embarrassing figures in individual constituencies. It seems as if the SNP have drilled loyalty into their membership too well for a break off to thrive.
Looks a forlorn hope David. Looks like it will need to be Labour that cleanse the SNP ( the sheeple seem to forgive every useless policy , disaster , etc). If only they had a backbone and some independent thinking rather than just London clones. At some point someone with brains will get them out of just being patsies taking orders. They need to swing at least some way to independence , full fiscal autonomy or they will get nowhere. SNP are useless till Sturgeon and her clique of crooks, rogues and self ider's are history. She must fall soon , no-one can keep all that manure hidden forever. Meanwhile Scotland burns, gets ever more like a basket case that deserves to be just a colony.
Surely if you are a nationalist and dislike Sturgeon you already have a successful party to vote for - the Scottish Greens. I'm not a nat but recognise the clear electoral mandate last year for a 2nd referendum. Dodgy Alex and his cult weren't needed to deliver that, so why care that they have largely died out?
The Scottish Greens are ridiculously Woke, especially on things like Trans - they are even Wokier than the SNP (which is going some)
I don't think @malcolmg is particularly Woke, so I see his dilemma. Alba promised to be the non-Woke Nats, but they've now evanesced
We all take your perspective on Woke u Der advisement.
In the real world there are two established nationalist parties and there wasn't room for a third.
But both indy parties are social democratic leftwing parties
What about economic and cultural conservatives who also like indy? What should they do? Grin and bear it forever?
It is a problem for the cause
What is conservative about breaking up the union? There are no right wing nat parties because it's not a right wing position.
Then again, with right wing conservatives now arguing for the merits of trade barriers and costly red tape anything is possible...
What a cringingly stupid remark
I think he's got a point. A conservative position is to persist and preserve things that are not obviously broken. The state of the union is an interesting one because there are arguments both ways but living in Scotland I can tell you that, despite your view of the house colours in Wick, it's not all dreary and horrible. It works, to some extent. So a natural conservative position is, don't overthrow this, it's working. So what is the conservative argument for independence? I can come up with a couple of weakish ones, but they're not altogether convincing.
Well I suppose if you were very conservative you could make the case that the Union as a whole had always been a mistake, and so opposing the Act of Union as a radical innovation.
But it's a mistake to identify the right-wing as always being small 'c' conservatives. The Right can be very radical when they want to. And in general the Right tend to make the argument of drawing a tighter circle of empathy and leaving more people on the outside, so it goes quite naturally with nationalism. I find it very easy to see the right-wing case for Scottish independence.
It's the left-wing argument for Scottish independence that I find hard to understand. What part of "Workers of the World Unite" involves creating a new border on the island of Britain?
If Scots and English can't cooperate then what chance for cooperating across greater cultural differences?
The problem with that was and remains - why should the Scots deny their own choice of politics to prevent the English getting their own choicve of politics? Given that the rUK mostly votes in Tory parties, Scotland not (Wales is a separate argument but the logic is similar).
Would Starmer defending his potential fine in court instead of resigning be plausible? Guess the problem is it might take many many months (years?) to get to court?
The Tories own the Home Office and would lean on the CPS toi speed up.
Surely the other way around? Starmer would win in court, nearly every challenge has won, including some clear breaches like gyms staying open. So the Tories would want it hanging over him for months, Starmer would want it asap.
(I think Boris/Rishi would have won if they had challenged their birthday cake one as well, although perhaps not on a couple of the other no 10 parties.)
"Scientists Say There’s an ‘Anti-Universe’ Running Backward in Time
"Could it be that a newly discovered “anti-universe” might run parallel to our own universe? If so, it would essentially spread out “backward” in time, prior to the Big Bang, in the same way our universe progressed “forward” in time."
Does this mean that they only have 3 more years of Boris as PM and we are still at risk of another 6? Lucky sods.
Think of all those poor sods hurtling towards the sickening inevitability of voting for BJ.
In the reverse-time universe, they are voting for him to lose his majority, and for him to pull ideological opponents back into the Conservative Party. A few months later, Conservative members will eject him from office and replace him with Theresa May, who will dance her way back into a majority and hand over to Cam who will heal the country's divides and make the Brexit vote a thing of the past future.
I'm looking forward to Gordon Brown presiding over a huge boom in the economy followed by Tony Blair bringing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis back to life.
"Scientists Say There’s an ‘Anti-Universe’ Running Backward in Time
"Could it be that a newly discovered “anti-universe” might run parallel to our own universe? If so, it would essentially spread out “backward” in time, prior to the Big Bang, in the same way our universe progressed “forward” in time."
Does this mean that they only have 3 more years of Boris as PM and we are still at risk of another 6? Lucky sods.
Think of all those poor sods hurtling towards the sickening inevitability of voting for BJ.
In the reverse-time universe, they are voting for him to lose his majority, and for him to pull ideological opponents back into the Conservative Party. A few months later, Conservative members will eject him from office and replace him with Theresa May, who will dance her way back into a majority and hand over to Cam who will heal the country's divides and make the Brexit vote a thing of the past future.
And British society will head towards the 1950's keeping IDS happy.
And then towards the 1850's, making JRM even happier.
. A Starmer FPN and he goes. Replace with Andy Burnham
Under NO circumstances:
He failed massively to win last time. Why? Because he is no bloody good.
He's not even an MP. Duh.
He will put off all the new Labour voters down sarf. And we still need them.
He has a penis.
So in the words of Maggie, 'No. No. No.'
What the fuck difference does it make that "he has a penis"? Are you high?
Says a man. And a tory man at that.
It makes 'the fuck difference' because Labour MUST choose a woman as next leader.
End of.
And I'm a Labour supporter. You're not. So piss off.
xx
Given that your party can't define what a woman is it's all a bit academic isn't it?
Non sequitur.
We need our next leader to be a woman. Whether that's someone who is a trans woman is another issue but I doubt the red wall thickos like Fucker Faroq would cope with it.
Next Labour leader must be a woman. End of.
Must be hard to keep track of your lines to take today, Vlad.
Yeah right Phillip Thompson.
See? Two can play the game.
The next Labour leader must and will be a woman. Sorry that this is causing such confusion for the right wing gammons.
Have a nice day folks.
Off out to walk around Hook Heath. I guess I could meet up with tlg86 some time and then that really will make you 'you're a troll' tories look even more stupid and dumbass than you already are (if that's poss.)
@PBModerator has said it's against the rules to doxx people.
Hoist with your own petard situation I'd have thought if you want to call vlad
Only if he genuinely is Vlad though.
One is a joke, a turn of phrase, the other is doxxing with full name.
Oh how we laughed and why should they be a "he"
Malcolm, do you think Alba still have a future after these elections? Not a single councillor in the whole of Scotland and some truly embarrassing figures in individual constituencies. It seems as if the SNP have drilled loyalty into their membership too well for a break off to thrive.
Looks a forlorn hope David. Looks like it will need to be Labour that cleanse the SNP ( the sheeple seem to forgive every useless policy , disaster , etc). If only they had a backbone and some independent thinking rather than just London clones. At some point someone with brains will get them out of just being patsies taking orders. They need to swing at least some way to independence , full fiscal autonomy or they will get nowhere. SNP are useless till Sturgeon and her clique of crooks, rogues and self ider's are history. She must fall soon , no-one can keep all that manure hidden forever. Meanwhile Scotland burns, gets ever more like a basket case that deserves to be just a colony.
Surely if you are a nationalist and dislike Sturgeon you already have a successful party to vote for - the Scottish Greens. I'm not a nat but recognise the clear electoral mandate last year for a 2nd referendum. Dodgy Alex and his cult weren't needed to deliver that, so why care that they have largely died out?
The Scottish Greens are ridiculously Woke, especially on things like Trans - they are even Wokier than the SNP (which is going some)
I don't think @malcolmg is particularly Woke, so I see his dilemma. Alba promised to be the non-Woke Nats, but they've now evanesced
We all take your perspective on Woke u Der advisement.
In the real world there are two established nationalist parties and there wasn't room for a third.
But both indy parties are social democratic leftwing parties
What about economic and cultural conservatives who also like indy? What should they do? Grin and bear it forever?
It is a problem for the cause
What is conservative about breaking up the union? There are no right wing nat parties because it's not a right wing position.
Then again, with right wing conservatives now arguing for the merits of trade barriers and costly red tape anything is possible...
What a cringingly stupid remark
I think he's got a point. A conservative position is to persist and preserve things that are not obviously broken. The state of the union is an interesting one because there are arguments both ways but living in Scotland I can tell you that, despite your view of the house colours in Wick, it's not all dreary and horrible. It works, to some extent. So a natural conservative position is, don't overthrow this, it's working. So what is the conservative argument for independence? I can come up with a couple of weakish ones, but they're not altogether convincing.
Well I suppose if you were very conservative you could make the case that the Union as a whole had always been a mistake, and so opposing the Act of Union as a radical innovation.
But it's a mistake to identify the right-wing as always being small 'c' conservatives. The Right can be very radical when they want to. And in general the Right tend to make the argument of drawing a tighter circle of empathy and leaving more people on the outside, so it goes quite naturally with nationalism. I find it very easy to see the right-wing case for Scottish independence.
It's the left-wing argument for Scottish independence that I find hard to understand. What part of "Workers of the World Unite" involves creating a new border on the island of Britain?
If Scots and English can't cooperate then what chance for cooperating across greater cultural differences?
Quite. Nationalism is generally a rightwing thing (see Ireland, where some of the separatists flirted with Fascism). Scotland is actually quite unusual in that its Nationalism is now prismed through leftwing parties.
Scot Nattery wasn't always like this. The SNP were once called "the Tartan Tories" for a reason
Sunday Times claims Boris Johnson personally "despises" his opposite number. An ally says: "He genuinely does not like Keir. He sees this man as part of a privileged, metropolitan, narrow-minded elite uncomfortable with the raw instincts of the vast majority of British people."
Ah, so that's why he got the Mail on this
If the Mail get their man here, any Johnson foe (inside or outside the Conservative Party) will be fair game for the tabloids (including the comic that is now the Telegraph).
Is it too much to hope that one outcome out of this embarrassing nonsense might be that politicians of all stripes will be less quick to reach for legislation the next time we have some sort of crisis?
The Covid restrictions should have been limited to shops, restaurants and pubs opening times. Everything else should have been guidance. And the likes of Boris, SKS and Sturgeon would not have been made to look even more ridiculous than normal.
. A Starmer FPN and he goes. Replace with Andy Burnham
Under NO circumstances:
He failed massively to win last time. Why? Because he is no bloody good.
He's not even an MP. Duh.
He will put off all the new Labour voters down sarf. And we still need them.
He has a penis.
So in the words of Maggie, 'No. No. No.'
What the fuck difference does it make that "he has a penis"? Are you high?
Says a man. And a tory man at that.
It makes 'the fuck difference' because Labour MUST choose a woman as next leader.
End of.
And I'm a Labour supporter. You're not. So piss off.
xx
Given that your party can't define what a woman is it's all a bit academic isn't it?
Non sequitur.
We need our next leader to be a woman. Whether that's someone who is a trans woman is another issue but I doubt the red wall thickos like Fucker Faroq would cope with it.
Next Labour leader must be a woman. End of.
Must be hard to keep track of your lines to take today, Vlad.
Yeah right Phillip Thompson.
See? Two can play the game.
The next Labour leader must and will be a woman. Sorry that this is causing such confusion for the right wing gammons.
Have a nice day folks.
Off out to walk around Hook Heath. I guess I could meet up with tlg86 some time and then that really will make you 'you're a troll' tories look even more stupid and dumbass than you already are (if that's poss.)
@PBModerator has said it's against the rules to doxx people.
Hoist with your own petard situation I'd have thought if you want to call vlad
Only if he genuinely is Vlad though.
One is a joke, a turn of phrase, the other is doxxing with full name.
Oh how we laughed and why should they be a "he"
Malcolm, do you think Alba still have a future after these elections? Not a single councillor in the whole of Scotland and some truly embarrassing figures in individual constituencies. It seems as if the SNP have drilled loyalty into their membership too well for a break off to thrive.
Looks a forlorn hope David. Looks like it will need to be Labour that cleanse the SNP ( the sheeple seem to forgive every useless policy , disaster , etc). If only they had a backbone and some independent thinking rather than just London clones. At some point someone with brains will get them out of just being patsies taking orders. They need to swing at least some way to independence , full fiscal autonomy or they will get nowhere. SNP are useless till Sturgeon and her clique of crooks, rogues and self ider's are history. She must fall soon , no-one can keep all that manure hidden forever. Meanwhile Scotland burns, gets ever more like a basket case that deserves to be just a colony.
Surely if you are a nationalist and dislike Sturgeon you already have a successful party to vote for - the Scottish Greens. I'm not a nat but recognise the clear electoral mandate last year for a 2nd referendum. Dodgy Alex and his cult weren't needed to deliver that, so why care that they have largely died out?
The Scottish Greens are ridiculously Woke, especially on things like Trans - they are even Wokier than the SNP (which is going some)
I don't think @malcolmg is particularly Woke, so I see his dilemma. Alba promised to be the non-Woke Nats, but they've now evanesced
We all take your perspective on Woke u Der advisement.
In the real world there are two established nationalist parties and there wasn't room for a third.
But both indy parties are social democratic leftwing parties
What about economic and cultural conservatives who also like indy? What should they do? Grin and bear it forever?
It is a problem for the cause
What is conservative about breaking up the union? There are no right wing nat parties because it's not a right wing position.
Then again, with right wing conservatives now arguing for the merits of trade barriers and costly red tape anything is possible...
What a cringingly stupid remark
I think he's got a point. A conservative position is to persist and preserve things that are not obviously broken. The state of the union is an interesting one because there are arguments both ways but living in Scotland I can tell you that, despite your view of the house colours in Wick, it's not all dreary and horrible. It works, to some extent. So a natural conservative position is, don't overthrow this, it's working. So what is the conservative argument for independence? I can come up with a couple of weakish ones, but they're not altogether convincing.
Well I suppose if you were very conservative you could make the case that the Union as a whole had always been a mistake, and so opposing the Act of Union as a radical innovation.
But it's a mistake to identify the right-wing as always being small 'c' conservatives. The Right can be very radical when they want to. And in general the Right tend to make the argument of drawing a tighter circle of empathy and leaving more people on the outside, so it goes quite naturally with nationalism. I find it very easy to see the right-wing case for Scottish independence.
It's the left-wing argument for Scottish independence that I find hard to understand. What part of "Workers of the World Unite" involves creating a new border on the island of Britain?
If Scots and English can't cooperate then what chance for cooperating across greater cultural differences?
The problem with that was and remains - why should the Scots deny their own choice of politics to prevent the English getting their own choicve of politics? Given that the rUK mostly votes in Tory parties, Scotland not (Wales is a separate argument but the logic is similar).
You are taking it as an axiom that politics in Scotland is fundamentally different to that in England. I just don't think there are any fundamental differences.
. A Starmer FPN and he goes. Replace with Andy Burnham
Under NO circumstances:
He failed massively to win last time. Why? Because he is no bloody good.
He's not even an MP. Duh.
He will put off all the new Labour voters down sarf. And we still need them.
He has a penis.
So in the words of Maggie, 'No. No. No.'
What the fuck difference does it make that "he has a penis"? Are you high?
Says a man. And a tory man at that.
It makes 'the fuck difference' because Labour MUST choose a woman as next leader.
End of.
And I'm a Labour supporter. You're not. So piss off.
xx
Given that your party can't define what a woman is it's all a bit academic isn't it?
Non sequitur.
We need our next leader to be a woman. Whether that's someone who is a trans woman is another issue but I doubt the red wall thickos like Fucker Faroq would cope with it.
Next Labour leader must be a woman. End of.
Must be hard to keep track of your lines to take today, Vlad.
Yeah right Phillip Thompson.
See? Two can play the game.
The next Labour leader must and will be a woman. Sorry that this is causing such confusion for the right wing gammons.
Have a nice day folks.
Off out to walk around Hook Heath. I guess I could meet up with tlg86 some time and then that really will make you 'you're a troll' tories look even more stupid and dumbass than you already are (if that's poss.)
@PBModerator has said it's against the rules to doxx people.
Hoist with your own petard situation I'd have thought if you want to call vlad
Only if he genuinely is Vlad though.
One is a joke, a turn of phrase, the other is doxxing with full name.
Oh how we laughed and why should they be a "he"
Malcolm, do you think Alba still have a future after these elections? Not a single councillor in the whole of Scotland and some truly embarrassing figures in individual constituencies. It seems as if the SNP have drilled loyalty into their membership too well for a break off to thrive.
Looks a forlorn hope David. Looks like it will need to be Labour that cleanse the SNP ( the sheeple seem to forgive every useless policy , disaster , etc). If only they had a backbone and some independent thinking rather than just London clones. At some point someone with brains will get them out of just being patsies taking orders. They need to swing at least some way to independence , full fiscal autonomy or they will get nowhere. SNP are useless till Sturgeon and her clique of crooks, rogues and self ider's are history. She must fall soon , no-one can keep all that manure hidden forever. Meanwhile Scotland burns, gets ever more like a basket case that deserves to be just a colony.
Surely if you are a nationalist and dislike Sturgeon you already have a successful party to vote for - the Scottish Greens. I'm not a nat but recognise the clear electoral mandate last year for a 2nd referendum. Dodgy Alex and his cult weren't needed to deliver that, so why care that they have largely died out?
The Scottish Greens are ridiculously Woke, especially on things like Trans - they are even Wokier than the SNP (which is going some)
I don't think @malcolmg is particularly Woke, so I see his dilemma. Alba promised to be the non-Woke Nats, but they've now evanesced
We all take your perspective on Woke u Der advisement.
In the real world there are two established nationalist parties and there wasn't room for a third.
But both indy parties are social democratic leftwing parties
What about economic and cultural conservatives who also like indy? What should they do? Grin and bear it forever?
It is a problem for the cause
What is conservative about breaking up the union? There are no right wing nat parties because it's not a right wing position.
Then again, with right wing conservatives now arguing for the merits of trade barriers and costly red tape anything is possible...
What a cringingly stupid remark
I think he's got a point. A conservative position is to persist and preserve things that are not obviously broken. The state of the union is an interesting one because there are arguments both ways but living in Scotland I can tell you that, despite your view of the house colours in Wick, it's not all dreary and horrible. It works, to some extent. So a natural conservative position is, don't overthrow this, it's working. So what is the conservative argument for independence? I can come up with a couple of weakish ones, but they're not altogether convincing.
Well I suppose if you were very conservative you could make the case that the Union as a whole had always been a mistake, and so opposing the Act of Union as a radical innovation.
But it's a mistake to identify the right-wing as always being small 'c' conservatives. The Right can be very radical when they want to. And in general the Right tend to make the argument of drawing a tighter circle of empathy and leaving more people on the outside, so it goes quite naturally with nationalism. I find it very easy to see the right-wing case for Scottish independence.
It's the left-wing argument for Scottish independence that I find hard to understand. What part of "Workers of the World Unite" involves creating a new border on the island of Britain?
If Scots and English can't cooperate then what chance for cooperating across greater cultural differences?
The problem with that was and remains - why should the Scots deny their own choice of politics to prevent the English getting their own choicve of politics? Given that the rUK mostly votes in Tory parties, Scotland not (Wales is a separate argument but the logic is similar).
The Tories lost in Scotland as well as in England on Thursday but in England it was a narrow defeat.
If the SNP got into bed with the Tories however, that would lead to a Labour landslide in Scotland as well as England. I say that as a Tory. I would rather do a deal with Labour, which would never happen, than even consider a deal with the SNP
. A Starmer FPN and he goes. Replace with Andy Burnham
Under NO circumstances:
He failed massively to win last time. Why? Because he is no bloody good.
He's not even an MP. Duh.
He will put off all the new Labour voters down sarf. And we still need them.
He has a penis.
So in the words of Maggie, 'No. No. No.'
What the fuck difference does it make that "he has a penis"? Are you high?
Says a man. And a tory man at that.
It makes 'the fuck difference' because Labour MUST choose a woman as next leader.
End of.
And I'm a Labour supporter. You're not. So piss off.
xx
Given that your party can't define what a woman is it's all a bit academic isn't it?
Non sequitur.
We need our next leader to be a woman. Whether that's someone who is a trans woman is another issue but I doubt the red wall thickos like Fucker Faroq would cope with it.
Next Labour leader must be a woman. End of.
Must be hard to keep track of your lines to take today, Vlad.
Yeah right Phillip Thompson.
See? Two can play the game.
The next Labour leader must and will be a woman. Sorry that this is causing such confusion for the right wing gammons.
Have a nice day folks.
Off out to walk around Hook Heath. I guess I could meet up with tlg86 some time and then that really will make you 'you're a troll' tories look even more stupid and dumbass than you already are (if that's poss.)
@PBModerator has said it's against the rules to doxx people.
Hoist with your own petard situation I'd have thought if you want to call vlad
Only if he genuinely is Vlad though.
One is a joke, a turn of phrase, the other is doxxing with full name.
Oh how we laughed and why should they be a "he"
Malcolm, do you think Alba still have a future after these elections? Not a single councillor in the whole of Scotland and some truly embarrassing figures in individual constituencies. It seems as if the SNP have drilled loyalty into their membership too well for a break off to thrive.
Looks a forlorn hope David. Looks like it will need to be Labour that cleanse the SNP ( the sheeple seem to forgive every useless policy , disaster , etc). If only they had a backbone and some independent thinking rather than just London clones. At some point someone with brains will get them out of just being patsies taking orders. They need to swing at least some way to independence , full fiscal autonomy or they will get nowhere. SNP are useless till Sturgeon and her clique of crooks, rogues and self ider's are history. She must fall soon , no-one can keep all that manure hidden forever. Meanwhile Scotland burns, gets ever more like a basket case that deserves to be just a colony.
Surely if you are a nationalist and dislike Sturgeon you already have a successful party to vote for - the Scottish Greens. I'm not a nat but recognise the clear electoral mandate last year for a 2nd referendum. Dodgy Alex and his cult weren't needed to deliver that, so why care that they have largely died out?
The Scottish Greens are ridiculously Woke, especially on things like Trans - they are even Wokier than the SNP (which is going some)
I don't think @malcolmg is particularly Woke, so I see his dilemma. Alba promised to be the non-Woke Nats, but they've now evanesced
We all take your perspective on Woke u Der advisement.
In the real world there are two established nationalist parties and there wasn't room for a third.
But both indy parties are social democratic leftwing parties
What about economic and cultural conservatives who also like indy? What should they do? Grin and bear it forever?
It is a problem for the cause
What is conservative about breaking up the union? There are no right wing nat parties because it's not a right wing position.
Then again, with right wing conservatives now arguing for the merits of trade barriers and costly red tape anything is possible...
What a cringingly stupid remark
I think he's got a point. A conservative position is to persist and preserve things that are not obviously broken. The state of the union is an interesting one because there are arguments both ways but living in Scotland I can tell you that, despite your view of the house colours in Wick, it's not all dreary and horrible. It works, to some extent. So a natural conservative position is, don't overthrow this, it's working. So what is the conservative argument for independence? I can come up with a couple of weakish ones, but they're not altogether convincing.
Well I suppose if you were very conservative you could make the case that the Union as a whole had always been a mistake, and so opposing the Act of Union as a radical innovation.
But it's a mistake to identify the right-wing as always being small 'c' conservatives. The Right can be very radical when they want to. And in general the Right tend to make the argument of drawing a tighter circle of empathy and leaving more people on the outside, so it goes quite naturally with nationalism. I find it very easy to see the right-wing case for Scottish independence.
It's the left-wing argument for Scottish independence that I find hard to understand. What part of "Workers of the World Unite" involves creating a new border on the island of Britain?
If Scots and English can't cooperate then what chance for cooperating across greater cultural differences?
The problem with that was and remains - why should the Scots deny their own choice of politics to prevent the English getting their own choicve of politics? Given that the rUK mostly votes in Tory parties, Scotland not (Wales is a separate argument but the logic is similar).
You are taking it as an axiom that politics in Scotland is fundamentally different to that in England. I just don't think there are any fundamental differences.
Not axiom: observed behaviour. Look at the votes for Tory and LD and Labour for a start.
. A Starmer FPN and he goes. Replace with Andy Burnham
Under NO circumstances:
He failed massively to win last time. Why? Because he is no bloody good.
He's not even an MP. Duh.
He will put off all the new Labour voters down sarf. And we still need them.
He has a penis.
So in the words of Maggie, 'No. No. No.'
What the fuck difference does it make that "he has a penis"? Are you high?
Says a man. And a tory man at that.
It makes 'the fuck difference' because Labour MUST choose a woman as next leader.
End of.
And I'm a Labour supporter. You're not. So piss off.
xx
Given that your party can't define what a woman is it's all a bit academic isn't it?
Non sequitur.
We need our next leader to be a woman. Whether that's someone who is a trans woman is another issue but I doubt the red wall thickos like Fucker Faroq would cope with it.
Next Labour leader must be a woman. End of.
Must be hard to keep track of your lines to take today, Vlad.
Yeah right Phillip Thompson.
See? Two can play the game.
The next Labour leader must and will be a woman. Sorry that this is causing such confusion for the right wing gammons.
Have a nice day folks.
Off out to walk around Hook Heath. I guess I could meet up with tlg86 some time and then that really will make you 'you're a troll' tories look even more stupid and dumbass than you already are (if that's poss.)
@PBModerator has said it's against the rules to doxx people.
Hoist with your own petard situation I'd have thought if you want to call vlad
Only if he genuinely is Vlad though.
One is a joke, a turn of phrase, the other is doxxing with full name.
Oh how we laughed and why should they be a "he"
Malcolm, do you think Alba still have a future after these elections? Not a single councillor in the whole of Scotland and some truly embarrassing figures in individual constituencies. It seems as if the SNP have drilled loyalty into their membership too well for a break off to thrive.
I think they're doomed. And the election results are not much to do with the membership, but more the voters. Most voters aren't members, and the voters took one look at Alba and went "nah mate". It's over for Salmond. Not with a bang but with a whimper.
That was very much my view but @malcolmg has been a strong supporter and I wondered if he could give us any insight from the inside. Guilty or not guilty the hatchet job done on Salmond has worked a treat for Nicola.
Yeah, I'd like to hear Malky's view on it too. It never ceases to strike me how effective Sturgeon is. I've said in the past that I admire her. A measure of her success is the way the Conservatives were over the moon with the 2017 results and now in 2022 Labour also very pleased at wresting 2nd place back off them. When your opponents are pleased with second, it says a lot.
Salmond is just the latest in a long line of politicians who've tried to take her down and ended up in a crumpled heap instead. Whether you like her or not, her electoral record is astonishing.
EDIT Too slow, Malky's thoughts now apparent.
Apologies if I’ve said similar before, but what is most astonishing about Salmond’s whimper is that there was a way back for him, with voters at least. If he’d shown a hint of even minimal contrition for his admitted behaviour, better concealed his desire to destroy Sturgeon, not allied himself with the likes of D.Davis, the Speccy & the Tele in aid of that desire and not surrounded himself with some of the flakiest people in the Indy movement, Salmond might have retained some elder statesman credibility, even some small electoral relevance. ‘Why won’t the crooked, scummy SNP work with us’ is one of the most pitiful electoral strategies going.
Yeah, I'd like to hear Malky's view on it too. It never ceases to strike me how effective Sturgeon is. I've said in the past that I admire her. A measure of her success is the way the Conservatives were over the moon with the 2017 results and now in 2022 Labour also very pleased at wresting 2nd place back off them. When your opponents are pleased with second, it says a lot.
Salmond is just the latest in a long line of politicians who've tried to take her down and ended up in a crumpled heap instead. Whether you like her or not, her electoral record is astonishing.
EDIT Too slow, Malky's thoughts now apparent.
NS is a political colossus, no doubt, but her success is built on the foundation of conspicuously wanting, but not actually doing much to get, independence. While that approach has been electorally successful for a very long time it must run out of steam at some point.
It's one of the reasons I think Johnson would be happy to offer an indyref to the SNP as the price of confidence and support. He knows NS doesn't really want one and he'd believe, with some justification, that he could win it anyway.
The other reason he might do it is that he doesn't give a fuck about Scotland. That country being a minor subset of the many things that aren't Boris Johnson that he doesn't give a fuck about.
I hear it so much it makes me doubt myself, but I'm still quite convinced that this is a mistaken view. I detect a real eagerness for a vote from the SNP leadership, but they've put the lid on it because of Covid. Now the locals are out of the way, we'll see whether I'm right or wrong. I expect a big move before the summer is out. If we get to September and it's all tumbleweed, you're right and I'm wrong.
EDIT: rethinking slightly, by the end of the conference, when is that, October?
But there is nothing she can DO
Even if the entire Conference and its Nan decides "2023 is the year" she can call for a referendum and legislate for this and that and then Boris says No, and.... er..... then what?
She won't go for UDI or a wildcat vote
She is then reliant on Starmer (if he survives currygate) winning but winning so narrowly he needs to offer the SNP indyref2 in return for their support (but I don't believe Starmer would do that, either)
The Nat cause is in a fix. I am not sure how the fix is fixed
This has been confirmed by the Times, please stop repeating the Mail lies.
Starmer himself has said there were 30 attending
And there could have been 60 attending for all that it makes a difference. The event was either legal or it was illegal. How many people attended or whether Rayner attended or if the party had created an agenda for the event or how much was spent on curry and did that include poppadoms is irrelevant.
Legal. Or illegal. That's all it is. We know the Tory events were illegal because fines have been issued and the spin machine is already making excuses for the fines to come ("yes Boris was at the party in the flat but he was conducting a job interview"). We don't yet know if the Starmer campaign event was illegal. We know much if the evidence actually makes the case for Starmer because the Tory clicktivists and hacks don't understand the law. But it's all down to the police and if they issue a fine Starmer has to go
Technical we know that the Met issued a FPN and the recipients chose not to contest them. Not quite the same as "we know [they] were illegal"
This does seem trial by media in which case I expect the Mirror will be substantiating Starmers story that he returned to work with some splash over the next few days .
Sunday Times claims Boris Johnson personally "despises" his opposite number. An ally says: "He genuinely does not like Keir. He sees this man as part of a privileged, metropolitan, narrow-minded elite uncomfortable with the raw instincts of the vast majority of British people."
Ah, so that's why he got the Mail on this
Astonishing projection from Boris there
This is more likely to be a disaffected left wing labour plot then anything else, not least that the information is coming from attendees at the gathering and certainly I do not see any conservatives at that event
It is fair to say the mail are front and centre of this investigative journalism but also the rest of the media, as they do, have logged onto the story and it looks like it will continue over the next couple of months
There is an amazing irony in all of this that Starmer should be caught out by his demands for Boris to resign in exactly these circumstances, ie being investigated by the police and before their verdict
Sunday Times claims Boris Johnson personally "despises" his opposite number. An ally says: "He genuinely does not like Keir. He sees this man as part of a privileged, metropolitan, narrow-minded elite uncomfortable with the raw instincts of the vast majority of British people."
Ah, so that's why he got the Mail on this
If the Mail get their man here, any Johnson foe (inside or outside the Conservative Party) will be fair game for the tabloids (including the comic that is now the Telegraph).
Neither the mail not anyone else can make bricks without straw. there's a story here and the scandal would be it not making the news
Yeah, I'd like to hear Malky's view on it too. It never ceases to strike me how effective Sturgeon is. I've said in the past that I admire her. A measure of her success is the way the Conservatives were over the moon with the 2017 results and now in 2022 Labour also very pleased at wresting 2nd place back off them. When your opponents are pleased with second, it says a lot.
Salmond is just the latest in a long line of politicians who've tried to take her down and ended up in a crumpled heap instead. Whether you like her or not, her electoral record is astonishing.
EDIT Too slow, Malky's thoughts now apparent.
NS is a political colossus, no doubt, but her success is built on the foundation of conspicuously wanting, but not actually doing much to get, independence. While that approach has been electorally successful for a very long time it must run out of steam at some point.
It's one of the reasons I think Johnson would be happy to offer an indyref to the SNP as the price of confidence and support. He knows NS doesn't really want one and he'd believe, with some justification, that he could win it anyway.
The other reason he might do it is that he doesn't give a fuck about Scotland. That country being a minor subset of the many things that aren't Boris Johnson that he doesn't give a fuck about.
I hear it so much it makes me doubt myself, but I'm still quite convinced that this is a mistaken view. I detect a real eagerness for a vote from the SNP leadership, but they've put the lid on it because of Covid. Now the locals are out of the way, we'll see whether I'm right or wrong. I expect a big move before the summer is out. If we get to September and it's all tumbleweed, you're right and I'm wrong.
EDIT: rethinking slightly, by the end of the conference, when is that, October?
But there is nothing she can DO
Even if the entire Conference and its Nan decides "2023 is the year" she can call for a referendum and legislate for this and that and then Boris says No, and.... er..... then what?
She won't go for UDI or a wildcat vote
She is then reliant on Starmer (if he survives currygate) winning but winning so narrowly he needs to offer the SNP indyref2 in return for their support (but I don't believe Starmer would do that, either)
The Nat cause is in a fix. I am not sure how the fix is fixed
You're quite right, but what I'm saying is making the request and even taking it to court kills the "she doesn't really want it" narrative.
My prediction is that the SNP will move seriously on this. That's not the same as saying it will be granted by London. That's why it's "over to you, Nicola" and not "over to you, Boris" yet.
. A Starmer FPN and he goes. Replace with Andy Burnham
Under NO circumstances:
He failed massively to win last time. Why? Because he is no bloody good.
He's not even an MP. Duh.
He will put off all the new Labour voters down sarf. And we still need them.
He has a penis.
So in the words of Maggie, 'No. No. No.'
What the fuck difference does it make that "he has a penis"? Are you high?
Says a man. And a tory man at that.
It makes 'the fuck difference' because Labour MUST choose a woman as next leader.
End of.
And I'm a Labour supporter. You're not. So piss off.
xx
Given that your party can't define what a woman is it's all a bit academic isn't it?
Non sequitur.
We need our next leader to be a woman. Whether that's someone who is a trans woman is another issue but I doubt the red wall thickos like Fucker Faroq would cope with it.
Next Labour leader must be a woman. End of.
Must be hard to keep track of your lines to take today, Vlad.
Yeah right Phillip Thompson.
See? Two can play the game.
The next Labour leader must and will be a woman. Sorry that this is causing such confusion for the right wing gammons.
Have a nice day folks.
Off out to walk around Hook Heath. I guess I could meet up with tlg86 some time and then that really will make you 'you're a troll' tories look even more stupid and dumbass than you already are (if that's poss.)
@PBModerator has said it's against the rules to doxx people.
Hoist with your own petard situation I'd have thought if you want to call vlad
Only if he genuinely is Vlad though.
One is a joke, a turn of phrase, the other is doxxing with full name.
Oh how we laughed and why should they be a "he"
Malcolm, do you think Alba still have a future after these elections? Not a single councillor in the whole of Scotland and some truly embarrassing figures in individual constituencies. It seems as if the SNP have drilled loyalty into their membership too well for a break off to thrive.
Looks a forlorn hope David. Looks like it will need to be Labour that cleanse the SNP ( the sheeple seem to forgive every useless policy , disaster , etc). If only they had a backbone and some independent thinking rather than just London clones. At some point someone with brains will get them out of just being patsies taking orders. They need to swing at least some way to independence , full fiscal autonomy or they will get nowhere. SNP are useless till Sturgeon and her clique of crooks, rogues and self ider's are history. She must fall soon , no-one can keep all that manure hidden forever. Meanwhile Scotland burns, gets ever more like a basket case that deserves to be just a colony.
Surely if you are a nationalist and dislike Sturgeon you already have a successful party to vote for - the Scottish Greens. I'm not a nat but recognise the clear electoral mandate last year for a 2nd referendum. Dodgy Alex and his cult weren't needed to deliver that, so why care that they have largely died out?
The Scottish Greens are ridiculously Woke, especially on things like Trans - they are even Wokier than the SNP (which is going some)
I don't think @malcolmg is particularly Woke, so I see his dilemma. Alba promised to be the non-Woke Nats, but they've now evanesced
We all take your perspective on Woke u Der advisement.
In the real world there are two established nationalist parties and there wasn't room for a third.
But both indy parties are social democratic leftwing parties
What about economic and cultural conservatives who also like indy? What should they do? Grin and bear it forever?
It is a problem for the cause
What is conservative about breaking up the union? There are no right wing nat parties because it's not a right wing position.
Then again, with right wing conservatives now arguing for the merits of trade barriers and costly red tape anything is possible...
What a cringingly stupid remark
I think he's got a point. A conservative position is to persist and preserve things that are not obviously broken. The state of the union is an interesting one because there are arguments both ways but living in Scotland I can tell you that, despite your view of the house colours in Wick, it's not all dreary and horrible. It works, to some extent. So a natural conservative position is, don't overthrow this, it's working. So what is the conservative argument for independence? I can come up with a couple of weakish ones, but they're not altogether convincing.
Well I suppose if you were very conservative you could make the case that the Union as a whole had always been a mistake, and so opposing the Act of Union as a radical innovation.
But it's a mistake to identify the right-wing as always being small 'c' conservatives. The Right can be very radical when they want to. And in general the Right tend to make the argument of drawing a tighter circle of empathy and leaving more people on the outside, so it goes quite naturally with nationalism. I find it very easy to see the right-wing case for Scottish independence.
It's the left-wing argument for Scottish independence that I find hard to understand. What part of "Workers of the World Unite" involves creating a new border on the island of Britain?
If Scots and English can't cooperate then what chance for cooperating across greater cultural differences?
Quite. Nationalism is generally a rightwing thing (see Ireland, where some of the separatists flirted with Fascism). Scotland is actually quite unusual in that its Nationalism is now prismed through leftwing parties.
Scot Nattery wasn't always like this. The SNP were once called "the Tartan Tories" for a reason
Indeed, the Tories liked their Fascists too as I recall. It was a Tory MP not a SNP activist who got jailed for kmost of the war.
The Tartan Tory bit however had much more to do with sectarianism, nativist religious sectarianism, which it shared with the Unionist Party (=Scons now) in opposition to the Labour/RC/Irish side of the division. It's the Tory party in Scotland which retained that sectarianism, not always very well hidden, much longer than the SNP which purged it long ago. Which at least shows that a centre right wing party with support for independence can and did, and of course now does with Alba, exist.
Slab still poisonously resent the SNP dumping the sectarian stuff and having a rapprochement with the RC establishment, working class voters, etc. which they think they own as of right.
. A Starmer FPN and he goes. Replace with Andy Burnham
Under NO circumstances:
He failed massively to win last time. Why? Because he is no bloody good.
He's not even an MP. Duh.
He will put off all the new Labour voters down sarf. And we still need them.
He has a penis.
So in the words of Maggie, 'No. No. No.'
What the fuck difference does it make that "he has a penis"? Are you high?
Says a man. And a tory man at that.
It makes 'the fuck difference' because Labour MUST choose a woman as next leader.
End of.
And I'm a Labour supporter. You're not. So piss off.
xx
Given that your party can't define what a woman is it's all a bit academic isn't it?
Non sequitur.
We need our next leader to be a woman. Whether that's someone who is a trans woman is another issue but I doubt the red wall thickos like Fucker Faroq would cope with it.
Next Labour leader must be a woman. End of.
Must be hard to keep track of your lines to take today, Vlad.
Yeah right Phillip Thompson.
See? Two can play the game.
The next Labour leader must and will be a woman. Sorry that this is causing such confusion for the right wing gammons.
Have a nice day folks.
Off out to walk around Hook Heath. I guess I could meet up with tlg86 some time and then that really will make you 'you're a troll' tories look even more stupid and dumbass than you already are (if that's poss.)
@PBModerator has said it's against the rules to doxx people.
Hoist with your own petard situation I'd have thought if you want to call vlad
Only if he genuinely is Vlad though.
One is a joke, a turn of phrase, the other is doxxing with full name.
Oh how we laughed and why should they be a "he"
Malcolm, do you think Alba still have a future after these elections? Not a single councillor in the whole of Scotland and some truly embarrassing figures in individual constituencies. It seems as if the SNP have drilled loyalty into their membership too well for a break off to thrive.
Looks a forlorn hope David. Looks like it will need to be Labour that cleanse the SNP ( the sheeple seem to forgive every useless policy , disaster , etc). If only they had a backbone and some independent thinking rather than just London clones. At some point someone with brains will get them out of just being patsies taking orders. They need to swing at least some way to independence , full fiscal autonomy or they will get nowhere. SNP are useless till Sturgeon and her clique of crooks, rogues and self ider's are history. She must fall soon , no-one can keep all that manure hidden forever. Meanwhile Scotland burns, gets ever more like a basket case that deserves to be just a colony.
Surely if you are a nationalist and dislike Sturgeon you already have a successful party to vote for - the Scottish Greens. I'm not a nat but recognise the clear electoral mandate last year for a 2nd referendum. Dodgy Alex and his cult weren't needed to deliver that, so why care that they have largely died out?
The Scottish Greens are ridiculously Woke, especially on things like Trans - they are even Wokier than the SNP (which is going some)
I don't think @malcolmg is particularly Woke, so I see his dilemma. Alba promised to be the non-Woke Nats, but they've now evanesced
We all take your perspective on Woke u Der advisement.
In the real world there are two established nationalist parties and there wasn't room for a third.
But both indy parties are social democratic leftwing parties
What about economic and cultural conservatives who also like indy? What should they do? Grin and bear it forever?
It is a problem for the cause
What is conservative about breaking up the union? There are no right wing nat parties because it's not a right wing position.
Then again, with right wing conservatives now arguing for the merits of trade barriers and costly red tape anything is possible...
What a cringingly stupid remark
I think he's got a point. A conservative position is to persist and preserve things that are not obviously broken. The state of the union is an interesting one because there are arguments both ways but living in Scotland I can tell you that, despite your view of the house colours in Wick, it's not all dreary and horrible. It works, to some extent. So a natural conservative position is, don't overthrow this, it's working. So what is the conservative argument for independence? I can come up with a couple of weakish ones, but they're not altogether convincing.
Well I suppose if you were very conservative you could make the case that the Union as a whole had always been a mistake, and so opposing the Act of Union as a radical innovation.
But it's a mistake to identify the right-wing as always being small 'c' conservatives. The Right can be very radical when they want to. And in general the Right tend to make the argument of drawing a tighter circle of empathy and leaving more people on the outside, so it goes quite naturally with nationalism. I find it very easy to see the right-wing case for Scottish independence.
It's the left-wing argument for Scottish independence that I find hard to understand. What part of "Workers of the World Unite" involves creating a new border on the island of Britain?
If Scots and English can't cooperate then what chance for cooperating across greater cultural differences?
Quite. Nationalism is generally a rightwing thing (see Ireland, where some of the separatists flirted with Fascism). Scotland is actually quite unusual in that its Nationalism is now prismed through leftwing parties.
Scot Nattery wasn't always like this. The SNP were once called "the Tartan Tories" for a reason
It was a clever strategic move by the SNP to shift to the left as part of a strategy to create as much difference with England as possible. They will receive votes from many Scottish Nationalists despite the left-wing politics, and can then use the left-wing politics to attract voters who would otherwise be suspicious of nationalism.
As soon as the referendum is won the left-wing politics will be dropped. It will then be "in the national interest".
Can you prove he didn’t ? This is the issue with how you differentiate between work and social . Is eating curry and discussing campaign strategy work or social .
. A Starmer FPN and he goes. Replace with Andy Burnham
Under NO circumstances:
He failed massively to win last time. Why? Because he is no bloody good.
He's not even an MP. Duh.
He will put off all the new Labour voters down sarf. And we still need them.
He has a penis.
So in the words of Maggie, 'No. No. No.'
What the fuck difference does it make that "he has a penis"? Are you high?
Says a man. And a tory man at that.
It makes 'the fuck difference' because Labour MUST choose a woman as next leader.
End of.
And I'm a Labour supporter. You're not. So piss off.
xx
Given that your party can't define what a woman is it's all a bit academic isn't it?
Non sequitur.
We need our next leader to be a woman. Whether that's someone who is a trans woman is another issue but I doubt the red wall thickos like Fucker Faroq would cope with it.
Next Labour leader must be a woman. End of.
Must be hard to keep track of your lines to take today, Vlad.
Yeah right Phillip Thompson.
See? Two can play the game.
The next Labour leader must and will be a woman. Sorry that this is causing such confusion for the right wing gammons.
Have a nice day folks.
Off out to walk around Hook Heath. I guess I could meet up with tlg86 some time and then that really will make you 'you're a troll' tories look even more stupid and dumbass than you already are (if that's poss.)
@PBModerator has said it's against the rules to doxx people.
Hoist with your own petard situation I'd have thought if you want to call vlad
Only if he genuinely is Vlad though.
One is a joke, a turn of phrase, the other is doxxing with full name.
Oh how we laughed and why should they be a "he"
Malcolm, do you think Alba still have a future after these elections? Not a single councillor in the whole of Scotland and some truly embarrassing figures in individual constituencies. It seems as if the SNP have drilled loyalty into their membership too well for a break off to thrive.
Looks a forlorn hope David. Looks like it will need to be Labour that cleanse the SNP ( the sheeple seem to forgive every useless policy , disaster , etc). If only they had a backbone and some independent thinking rather than just London clones. At some point someone with brains will get them out of just being patsies taking orders. They need to swing at least some way to independence , full fiscal autonomy or they will get nowhere. SNP are useless till Sturgeon and her clique of crooks, rogues and self ider's are history. She must fall soon , no-one can keep all that manure hidden forever. Meanwhile Scotland burns, gets ever more like a basket case that deserves to be just a colony.
Surely if you are a nationalist and dislike Sturgeon you already have a successful party to vote for - the Scottish Greens. I'm not a nat but recognise the clear electoral mandate last year for a 2nd referendum. Dodgy Alex and his cult weren't needed to deliver that, so why care that they have largely died out?
The Scottish Greens are ridiculously Woke, especially on things like Trans - they are even Wokier than the SNP (which is going some)
I don't think @malcolmg is particularly Woke, so I see his dilemma. Alba promised to be the non-Woke Nats, but they've now evanesced
We all take your perspective on Woke u Der advisement.
In the real world there are two established nationalist parties and there wasn't room for a third.
But both indy parties are social democratic leftwing parties
What about economic and cultural conservatives who also like indy? What should they do? Grin and bear it forever?
It is a problem for the cause
What is conservative about breaking up the union? There are no right wing nat parties because it's not a right wing position.
Then again, with right wing conservatives now arguing for the merits of trade barriers and costly red tape anything is possible...
What a cringingly stupid remark
I think he's got a point. A conservative position is to persist and preserve things that are not obviously broken. The state of the union is an interesting one because there are arguments both ways but living in Scotland I can tell you that, despite your view of the house colours in Wick, it's not all dreary and horrible. It works, to some extent. So a natural conservative position is, don't overthrow this, it's working. So what is the conservative argument for independence? I can come up with a couple of weakish ones, but they're not altogether convincing.
Well I suppose if you were very conservative you could make the case that the Union as a whole had always been a mistake, and so opposing the Act of Union as a radical innovation.
But it's a mistake to identify the right-wing as always being small 'c' conservatives. The Right can be very radical when they want to. And in general the Right tend to make the argument of drawing a tighter circle of empathy and leaving more people on the outside, so it goes quite naturally with nationalism. I find it very easy to see the right-wing case for Scottish independence.
It's the left-wing argument for Scottish independence that I find hard to understand. What part of "Workers of the World Unite" involves creating a new border on the island of Britain?
If Scots and English can't cooperate then what chance for cooperating across greater cultural differences?
Quite. Nationalism is generally a rightwing thing (see Ireland, where some of the separatists flirted with Fascism). Scotland is actually quite unusual in that its Nationalism is now prismed through leftwing parties.
Scot Nattery wasn't always like this. The SNP were once called "the Tartan Tories" for a reason
It was a clever strategic move by the SNP to shift to the left as part of a strategy to create as much difference with England as possible. They will receive votes from many Scottish Nationalists despite the left-wing politics, and can then use the left-wing politics to attract voters who would otherwise be suspicious of nationalism.
As soon as the referendum is won the left-wing politics will be dropped. It will then be "in the national interest".
On the final point - the voters can then vote for whomsoever they want after independence. And get the politics they want. Which is the whole point.
. A Starmer FPN and he goes. Replace with Andy Burnham
Under NO circumstances:
He failed massively to win last time. Why? Because he is no bloody good.
He's not even an MP. Duh.
He will put off all the new Labour voters down sarf. And we still need them.
He has a penis.
So in the words of Maggie, 'No. No. No.'
What the fuck difference does it make that "he has a penis"? Are you high?
Says a man. And a tory man at that.
It makes 'the fuck difference' because Labour MUST choose a woman as next leader.
End of.
And I'm a Labour supporter. You're not. So piss off.
xx
Given that your party can't define what a woman is it's all a bit academic isn't it?
Non sequitur.
We need our next leader to be a woman. Whether that's someone who is a trans woman is another issue but I doubt the red wall thickos like Fucker Faroq would cope with it.
Next Labour leader must be a woman. End of.
Must be hard to keep track of your lines to take today, Vlad.
Yeah right Phillip Thompson.
See? Two can play the game.
The next Labour leader must and will be a woman. Sorry that this is causing such confusion for the right wing gammons.
Have a nice day folks.
Off out to walk around Hook Heath. I guess I could meet up with tlg86 some time and then that really will make you 'you're a troll' tories look even more stupid and dumbass than you already are (if that's poss.)
@PBModerator has said it's against the rules to doxx people.
Hoist with your own petard situation I'd have thought if you want to call vlad
Only if he genuinely is Vlad though.
One is a joke, a turn of phrase, the other is doxxing with full name.
Oh how we laughed and why should they be a "he"
Malcolm, do you think Alba still have a future after these elections? Not a single councillor in the whole of Scotland and some truly embarrassing figures in individual constituencies. It seems as if the SNP have drilled loyalty into their membership too well for a break off to thrive.
Looks a forlorn hope David. Looks like it will need to be Labour that cleanse the SNP ( the sheeple seem to forgive every useless policy , disaster , etc). If only they had a backbone and some independent thinking rather than just London clones. At some point someone with brains will get them out of just being patsies taking orders. They need to swing at least some way to independence , full fiscal autonomy or they will get nowhere. SNP are useless till Sturgeon and her clique of crooks, rogues and self ider's are history. She must fall soon , no-one can keep all that manure hidden forever. Meanwhile Scotland burns, gets ever more like a basket case that deserves to be just a colony.
Surely if you are a nationalist and dislike Sturgeon you already have a successful party to vote for - the Scottish Greens. I'm not a nat but recognise the clear electoral mandate last year for a 2nd referendum. Dodgy Alex and his cult weren't needed to deliver that, so why care that they have largely died out?
The Scottish Greens are ridiculously Woke, especially on things like Trans - they are even Wokier than the SNP (which is going some)
I don't think @malcolmg is particularly Woke, so I see his dilemma. Alba promised to be the non-Woke Nats, but they've now evanesced
We all take your perspective on Woke u Der advisement.
In the real world there are two established nationalist parties and there wasn't room for a third.
But both indy parties are social democratic leftwing parties
What about economic and cultural conservatives who also like indy? What should they do? Grin and bear it forever?
It is a problem for the cause
What is conservative about breaking up the union? There are no right wing nat parties because it's not a right wing position.
Then again, with right wing conservatives now arguing for the merits of trade barriers and costly red tape anything is possible...
What a cringingly stupid remark
I think he's got a point. A conservative position is to persist and preserve things that are not obviously broken. The state of the union is an interesting one because there are arguments both ways but living in Scotland I can tell you that, despite your view of the house colours in Wick, it's not all dreary and horrible. It works, to some extent. So a natural conservative position is, don't overthrow this, it's working. So what is the conservative argument for independence? I can come up with a couple of weakish ones, but they're not altogether convincing.
Well I suppose if you were very conservative you could make the case that the Union as a whole had always been a mistake, and so opposing the Act of Union as a radical innovation.
But it's a mistake to identify the right-wing as always being small 'c' conservatives. The Right can be very radical when they want to. And in general the Right tend to make the argument of drawing a tighter circle of empathy and leaving more people on the outside, so it goes quite naturally with nationalism. I find it very easy to see the right-wing case for Scottish independence.
It's the left-wing argument for Scottish independence that I find hard to understand. What part of "Workers of the World Unite" involves creating a new border on the island of Britain?
If Scots and English can't cooperate then what chance for cooperating across greater cultural differences?
Quite. Nationalism is generally a rightwing thing (see Ireland, where some of the separatists flirted with Fascism). Scotland is actually quite unusual in that its Nationalism is now prismed through leftwing parties.
Scot Nattery wasn't always like this. The SNP were once called "the Tartan Tories" for a reason
It was a clever strategic move by the SNP to shift to the left as part of a strategy to create as much difference with England as possible. They will receive votes from many Scottish Nationalists despite the left-wing politics, and can then use the left-wing politics to attract voters who would otherwise be suspicious of nationalism.
As soon as the referendum is won the left-wing politics will be dropped. It will then be "in the national interest".
In your somewhat partial hypothesis, there won’t be an SNP, just post-indy parties of various hues. Insofar as left wing politics were involved, I’m pretty sure every UK Labour government has explicitly stated that they govern ‘in the national interest’.
Can you prove he didn’t ? This is the issue with how you differentiate between work and social . Is eating curry and discussing campaign strategy work or social .
Nah, it's all just shite. He needs to go, just like Boris and Rishi should have gone.
. A Starmer FPN and he goes. Replace with Andy Burnham
Under NO circumstances:
He failed massively to win last time. Why? Because he is no bloody good.
He's not even an MP. Duh.
He will put off all the new Labour voters down sarf. And we still need them.
He has a penis.
So in the words of Maggie, 'No. No. No.'
What the fuck difference does it make that "he has a penis"? Are you high?
Says a man. And a tory man at that.
It makes 'the fuck difference' because Labour MUST choose a woman as next leader.
End of.
And I'm a Labour supporter. You're not. So piss off.
xx
Given that your party can't define what a woman is it's all a bit academic isn't it?
Non sequitur.
We need our next leader to be a woman. Whether that's someone who is a trans woman is another issue but I doubt the red wall thickos like Fucker Faroq would cope with it.
Next Labour leader must be a woman. End of.
Must be hard to keep track of your lines to take today, Vlad.
Yeah right Phillip Thompson.
See? Two can play the game.
The next Labour leader must and will be a woman. Sorry that this is causing such confusion for the right wing gammons.
Have a nice day folks.
Off out to walk around Hook Heath. I guess I could meet up with tlg86 some time and then that really will make you 'you're a troll' tories look even more stupid and dumbass than you already are (if that's poss.)
@PBModerator has said it's against the rules to doxx people.
Hoist with your own petard situation I'd have thought if you want to call vlad
Only if he genuinely is Vlad though.
One is a joke, a turn of phrase, the other is doxxing with full name.
Oh how we laughed and why should they be a "he"
Malcolm, do you think Alba still have a future after these elections? Not a single councillor in the whole of Scotland and some truly embarrassing figures in individual constituencies. It seems as if the SNP have drilled loyalty into their membership too well for a break off to thrive.
Looks a forlorn hope David. Looks like it will need to be Labour that cleanse the SNP ( the sheeple seem to forgive every useless policy , disaster , etc). If only they had a backbone and some independent thinking rather than just London clones. At some point someone with brains will get them out of just being patsies taking orders. They need to swing at least some way to independence , full fiscal autonomy or they will get nowhere. SNP are useless till Sturgeon and her clique of crooks, rogues and self ider's are history. She must fall soon , no-one can keep all that manure hidden forever. Meanwhile Scotland burns, gets ever more like a basket case that deserves to be just a colony.
Surely if you are a nationalist and dislike Sturgeon you already have a successful party to vote for - the Scottish Greens. I'm not a nat but recognise the clear electoral mandate last year for a 2nd referendum. Dodgy Alex and his cult weren't needed to deliver that, so why care that they have largely died out?
The Scottish Greens are ridiculously Woke, especially on things like Trans - they are even Wokier than the SNP (which is going some)
I don't think @malcolmg is particularly Woke, so I see his dilemma. Alba promised to be the non-Woke Nats, but they've now evanesced
We all take your perspective on Woke u Der advisement.
In the real world there are two established nationalist parties and there wasn't room for a third.
But both indy parties are social democratic leftwing parties
What about economic and cultural conservatives who also like indy? What should they do? Grin and bear it forever?
It is a problem for the cause
What is conservative about breaking up the union? There are no right wing nat parties because it's not a right wing position.
Then again, with right wing conservatives now arguing for the merits of trade barriers and costly red tape anything is possible...
What a cringingly stupid remark
I think he's got a point. A conservative position is to persist and preserve things that are not obviously broken. The state of the union is an interesting one because there are arguments both ways but living in Scotland I can tell you that, despite your view of the house colours in Wick, it's not all dreary and horrible. It works, to some extent. So a natural conservative position is, don't overthrow this, it's working. So what is the conservative argument for independence? I can come up with a couple of weakish ones, but they're not altogether convincing.
Well I suppose if you were very conservative you could make the case that the Union as a whole had always been a mistake, and so opposing the Act of Union as a radical innovation.
But it's a mistake to identify the right-wing as always being small 'c' conservatives. The Right can be very radical when they want to. And in general the Right tend to make the argument of drawing a tighter circle of empathy and leaving more people on the outside, so it goes quite naturally with nationalism. I find it very easy to see the right-wing case for Scottish independence.
It's the left-wing argument for Scottish independence that I find hard to understand. What part of "Workers of the World Unite" involves creating a new border on the island of Britain?
If Scots and English can't cooperate then what chance for cooperating across greater cultural differences?
The problem with that was and remains - why should the Scots deny their own choice of politics to prevent the English getting their own choicve of politics? Given that the rUK mostly votes in Tory parties, Scotland not (Wales is a separate argument but the logic is similar).
You are taking it as an axiom that politics in Scotland is fundamentally different to that in England. I just don't think there are any fundamental differences.
Not axiom: observed behaviour. Look at the votes for Tory and LD and Labour for a start.
I think a lot of this is contingent. Things like having the poll tax introduced in Scotland first, and having a proportional element to elections to Holyrood, which allowed parties like the Scottish Socialists and the Greens to have a voice. And then also an effect of the SNP deciding to advocate for left-wing policies is that it shifts the Overton Window to the left.
So I see the current difference in voting patterns as a result of contingent events, and not a fundamental aspect of the nature of people in England or Scotland, and so I hope that left-wing politics will advance in England - and there are some promising signs of the Green Party making progress, for example.
Sunday Times claims Boris Johnson personally "despises" his opposite number. An ally says: "He genuinely does not like Keir. He sees this man as part of a privileged, metropolitan, narrow-minded elite uncomfortable with the raw instincts of the vast majority of British people."
Ah, so that's why he got the Mail on this
Astonishing projection from Boris there
This is more likely to be a disaffected left wing labour plot then anything else, not least that the information is coming from attendees at the gathering and certainly I do not see any conservatives at that event
It is fair to say the mail are front and centre of this investigative journalism but also the rest of the media, as they do, have logged onto the story and it looks like it will continue over the next couple of months
There is an amazing irony in all of this that Starmer should be caught out by his demands for Boris to resign in exactly these circumstances, ie being investigated by the police and before their verdict
None of that says that Boris isn't part of the out-of-touch urban elite reeking of privilege, which is the point about the projection I'm accusing him of. It's a little surprising that a Bullingdon twat who's been paid millions by the Telegraph and who has JRM in his government wants to talk about someone else's privilege, and frankly astonishing that anyone doesn't just laugh in his face for trying it on.
We don’t know what evidence Starmer will give to police to prove he was working after the curry. If there is strong evidence then I’d expect a leak of that to the Mirror or friendly journalist .
. A Starmer FPN and he goes. Replace with Andy Burnham
Under NO circumstances:
He failed massively to win last time. Why? Because he is no bloody good.
He's not even an MP. Duh.
He will put off all the new Labour voters down sarf. And we still need them.
He has a penis.
So in the words of Maggie, 'No. No. No.'
What the fuck difference does it make that "he has a penis"? Are you high?
Says a man. And a tory man at that.
It makes 'the fuck difference' because Labour MUST choose a woman as next leader.
End of.
And I'm a Labour supporter. You're not. So piss off.
xx
Given that your party can't define what a woman is it's all a bit academic isn't it?
Non sequitur.
We need our next leader to be a woman. Whether that's someone who is a trans woman is another issue but I doubt the red wall thickos like Fucker Faroq would cope with it.
Next Labour leader must be a woman. End of.
Must be hard to keep track of your lines to take today, Vlad.
Yeah right Phillip Thompson.
See? Two can play the game.
The next Labour leader must and will be a woman. Sorry that this is causing such confusion for the right wing gammons.
Have a nice day folks.
Off out to walk around Hook Heath. I guess I could meet up with tlg86 some time and then that really will make you 'you're a troll' tories look even more stupid and dumbass than you already are (if that's poss.)
@PBModerator has said it's against the rules to doxx people.
Hoist with your own petard situation I'd have thought if you want to call vlad
Only if he genuinely is Vlad though.
One is a joke, a turn of phrase, the other is doxxing with full name.
Oh how we laughed and why should they be a "he"
Malcolm, do you think Alba still have a future after these elections? Not a single councillor in the whole of Scotland and some truly embarrassing figures in individual constituencies. It seems as if the SNP have drilled loyalty into their membership too well for a break off to thrive.
Looks a forlorn hope David. Looks like it will need to be Labour that cleanse the SNP ( the sheeple seem to forgive every useless policy , disaster , etc). If only they had a backbone and some independent thinking rather than just London clones. At some point someone with brains will get them out of just being patsies taking orders. They need to swing at least some way to independence , full fiscal autonomy or they will get nowhere. SNP are useless till Sturgeon and her clique of crooks, rogues and self ider's are history. She must fall soon , no-one can keep all that manure hidden forever. Meanwhile Scotland burns, gets ever more like a basket case that deserves to be just a colony.
Surely if you are a nationalist and dislike Sturgeon you already have a successful party to vote for - the Scottish Greens. I'm not a nat but recognise the clear electoral mandate last year for a 2nd referendum. Dodgy Alex and his cult weren't needed to deliver that, so why care that they have largely died out?
The Scottish Greens are ridiculously Woke, especially on things like Trans - they are even Wokier than the SNP (which is going some)
I don't think @malcolmg is particularly Woke, so I see his dilemma. Alba promised to be the non-Woke Nats, but they've now evanesced
We all take your perspective on Woke u Der advisement.
In the real world there are two established nationalist parties and there wasn't room for a third.
But both indy parties are social democratic leftwing parties
What about economic and cultural conservatives who also like indy? What should they do? Grin and bear it forever?
It is a problem for the cause
What is conservative about breaking up the union? There are no right wing nat parties because it's not a right wing position.
Then again, with right wing conservatives now arguing for the merits of trade barriers and costly red tape anything is possible...
What a cringingly stupid remark
I think he's got a point. A conservative position is to persist and preserve things that are not obviously broken. The state of the union is an interesting one because there are arguments both ways but living in Scotland I can tell you that, despite your view of the house colours in Wick, it's not all dreary and horrible. It works, to some extent. So a natural conservative position is, don't overthrow this, it's working. So what is the conservative argument for independence? I can come up with a couple of weakish ones, but they're not altogether convincing.
Well I suppose if you were very conservative you could make the case that the Union as a whole had always been a mistake, and so opposing the Act of Union as a radical innovation.
But it's a mistake to identify the right-wing as always being small 'c' conservatives. The Right can be very radical when they want to. And in general the Right tend to make the argument of drawing a tighter circle of empathy and leaving more people on the outside, so it goes quite naturally with nationalism. I find it very easy to see the right-wing case for Scottish independence.
It's the left-wing argument for Scottish independence that I find hard to understand. What part of "Workers of the World Unite" involves creating a new border on the island of Britain?
If Scots and English can't cooperate then what chance for cooperating across greater cultural differences?
The problem with that was and remains - why should the Scots deny their own choice of politics to prevent the English getting their own choicve of politics? Given that the rUK mostly votes in Tory parties, Scotland not (Wales is a separate argument but the logic is similar).
You are taking it as an axiom that politics in Scotland is fundamentally different to that in England. I just don't think there are any fundamental differences.
Not axiom: observed behaviour. Look at the votes for Tory and LD and Labour for a start.
I think Labour's 'tradition' of losing general elections has more to do with them often having crap leaders and crap policies than the English being essentially right wing.
Sending a tweet while he was eating a curry hardly amounts to continuing to work
Anyway that can easily be proven by the record of when he returned to his hotel, which by the way was serving food upto 9.00pm and room service after. Furthermore eating establishments were open despite Starmer saying there were not
Sending a tweet while he was eating a curry hardly amounts to continuing to work
Anyway that can easily be proven by the record of when he returned to his hotel, which by the way was serving food upto 9.00pm and room service after. Furthermore eating establishments were open despite Starmer saying there were not
1. Have you never eaten and worked at the same time? I do that several times most weeks. 2. Tweeting can be work. Many organisations from charities to companies to public sector organisations literally pay people tweet.
Sunday Times claims Boris Johnson personally "despises" his opposite number. An ally says: "He genuinely does not like Keir. He sees this man as part of a privileged, metropolitan, narrow-minded elite uncomfortable with the raw instincts of the vast majority of British people."
Ah, so that's why he got the Mail on this
Astonishing projection from Boris there
This is more likely to be a disaffected left wing labour plot then anything else, not least that the information is coming from attendees at the gathering and certainly I do not see any conservatives at that event
It is fair to say the mail are front and centre of this investigative journalism but also the rest of the media, as they do, have logged onto the story and it looks like it will continue over the next couple of months
There is an amazing irony in all of this that Starmer should be caught out by his demands for Boris to resign in exactly these circumstances, ie being investigated by the police and before their verdict
None of that says that Boris isn't part of the out-of-touch urban elite reeking of privilege, which is the point about the projection I'm accusing him of. It's a little surprising that a Bullingdon twat who's been paid millions by the Telegraph and who has JRM in his government wants to talk about someone else's privilege, and frankly astonishing that anyone doesn't just laugh in his face for trying it on.
. A Starmer FPN and he goes. Replace with Andy Burnham
Under NO circumstances:
He failed massively to win last time. Why? Because he is no bloody good.
He's not even an MP. Duh.
He will put off all the new Labour voters down sarf. And we still need them.
He has a penis.
So in the words of Maggie, 'No. No. No.'
What the fuck difference does it make that "he has a penis"? Are you high?
Says a man. And a tory man at that.
It makes 'the fuck difference' because Labour MUST choose a woman as next leader.
End of.
And I'm a Labour supporter. You're not. So piss off.
xx
Given that your party can't define what a woman is it's all a bit academic isn't it?
Non sequitur.
We need our next leader to be a woman. Whether that's someone who is a trans woman is another issue but I doubt the red wall thickos like Fucker Faroq would cope with it.
Next Labour leader must be a woman. End of.
Must be hard to keep track of your lines to take today, Vlad.
Yeah right Phillip Thompson.
See? Two can play the game.
The next Labour leader must and will be a woman. Sorry that this is causing such confusion for the right wing gammons.
Have a nice day folks.
Off out to walk around Hook Heath. I guess I could meet up with tlg86 some time and then that really will make you 'you're a troll' tories look even more stupid and dumbass than you already are (if that's poss.)
@PBModerator has said it's against the rules to doxx people.
Hoist with your own petard situation I'd have thought if you want to call vlad
Only if he genuinely is Vlad though.
One is a joke, a turn of phrase, the other is doxxing with full name.
Oh how we laughed and why should they be a "he"
Malcolm, do you think Alba still have a future after these elections? Not a single councillor in the whole of Scotland and some truly embarrassing figures in individual constituencies. It seems as if the SNP have drilled loyalty into their membership too well for a break off to thrive.
I think they're doomed. And the election results are not much to do with the membership, but more the voters. Most voters aren't members, and the voters took one look at Alba and went "nah mate". It's over for Salmond. Not with a bang but with a whimper.
That was very much my view but @malcolmg has been a strong supporter and I wondered if he could give us any insight from the inside. Guilty or not guilty the hatchet job done on Salmond has worked a treat for Nicola.
Yeah, I'd like to hear Malky's view on it too. It never ceases to strike me how effective Sturgeon is. I've said in the past that I admire her. A measure of her success is the way the Conservatives were over the moon with the 2017 results and now in 2022 Labour also very pleased at wresting 2nd place back off them. When your opponents are pleased with second, it says a lot.
Salmond is just the latest in a long line of politicians who've tried to take her down and ended up in a crumpled heap instead. Whether you like her or not, her electoral record is astonishing.
EDIT Too slow, Malky's thoughts now apparent.
I think she has strong backing from London, we see lots of rubbish in print but I think she has an understanding that the boat only gets rocked so much. Can be no other reason why she has failed to do anything for so many years. Power crazy and is looking for a big job. Would be interesting to see what her superinjuctions are about as well and seems Swinney may also a naughty boy. They have managed to get rid of any thinking people and surrounded themselves with a bunch of grasping wasters. They will run out of cash though and unlike the other regional parties do not have London to bail them out.
Alternatively, she only wants to hold a referendum when there is a near certainty of winning. Another lost referendum - when would the third be?
. A Starmer FPN and he goes. Replace with Andy Burnham
Under NO circumstances:
He failed massively to win last time. Why? Because he is no bloody good.
He's not even an MP. Duh.
He will put off all the new Labour voters down sarf. And we still need them.
He has a penis.
So in the words of Maggie, 'No. No. No.'
What the fuck difference does it make that "he has a penis"? Are you high?
Says a man. And a tory man at that.
It makes 'the fuck difference' because Labour MUST choose a woman as next leader.
End of.
And I'm a Labour supporter. You're not. So piss off.
xx
Given that your party can't define what a woman is it's all a bit academic isn't it?
Non sequitur.
We need our next leader to be a woman. Whether that's someone who is a trans woman is another issue but I doubt the red wall thickos like Fucker Faroq would cope with it.
Next Labour leader must be a woman. End of.
Must be hard to keep track of your lines to take today, Vlad.
Yeah right Phillip Thompson.
See? Two can play the game.
The next Labour leader must and will be a woman. Sorry that this is causing such confusion for the right wing gammons.
Have a nice day folks.
Off out to walk around Hook Heath. I guess I could meet up with tlg86 some time and then that really will make you 'you're a troll' tories look even more stupid and dumbass than you already are (if that's poss.)
@PBModerator has said it's against the rules to doxx people.
Hoist with your own petard situation I'd have thought if you want to call vlad
Only if he genuinely is Vlad though.
One is a joke, a turn of phrase, the other is doxxing with full name.
Oh how we laughed and why should they be a "he"
Malcolm, do you think Alba still have a future after these elections? Not a single councillor in the whole of Scotland and some truly embarrassing figures in individual constituencies. It seems as if the SNP have drilled loyalty into their membership too well for a break off to thrive.
Looks a forlorn hope David. Looks like it will need to be Labour that cleanse the SNP ( the sheeple seem to forgive every useless policy , disaster , etc). If only they had a backbone and some independent thinking rather than just London clones. At some point someone with brains will get them out of just being patsies taking orders. They need to swing at least some way to independence , full fiscal autonomy or they will get nowhere. SNP are useless till Sturgeon and her clique of crooks, rogues and self ider's are history. She must fall soon , no-one can keep all that manure hidden forever. Meanwhile Scotland burns, gets ever more like a basket case that deserves to be just a colony.
Surely if you are a nationalist and dislike Sturgeon you already have a successful party to vote for - the Scottish Greens. I'm not a nat but recognise the clear electoral mandate last year for a 2nd referendum. Dodgy Alex and his cult weren't needed to deliver that, so why care that they have largely died out?
The Scottish Greens are ridiculously Woke, especially on things like Trans - they are even Wokier than the SNP (which is going some)
I don't think @malcolmg is particularly Woke, so I see his dilemma. Alba promised to be the non-Woke Nats, but they've now evanesced
We all take your perspective on Woke u Der advisement.
In the real world there are two established nationalist parties and there wasn't room for a third.
But both indy parties are social democratic leftwing parties
What about economic and cultural conservatives who also like indy? What should they do? Grin and bear it forever?
It is a problem for the cause
What is conservative about breaking up the union? There are no right wing nat parties because it's not a right wing position.
Then again, with right wing conservatives now arguing for the merits of trade barriers and costly red tape anything is possible...
What a cringingly stupid remark
I think he's got a point. A conservative position is to persist and preserve things that are not obviously broken. The state of the union is an interesting one because there are arguments both ways but living in Scotland I can tell you that, despite your view of the house colours in Wick, it's not all dreary and horrible. It works, to some extent. So a natural conservative position is, don't overthrow this, it's working. So what is the conservative argument for independence? I can come up with a couple of weakish ones, but they're not altogether convincing.
Well I suppose if you were very conservative you could make the case that the Union as a whole had always been a mistake, and so opposing the Act of Union as a radical innovation.
But it's a mistake to identify the right-wing as always being small 'c' conservatives. The Right can be very radical when they want to. And in general the Right tend to make the argument of drawing a tighter circle of empathy and leaving more people on the outside, so it goes quite naturally with nationalism. I find it very easy to see the right-wing case for Scottish independence.
It's the left-wing argument for Scottish independence that I find hard to understand. What part of "Workers of the World Unite" involves creating a new border on the island of Britain?
If Scots and English can't cooperate then what chance for cooperating across greater cultural differences?
The problem with that was and remains - why should the Scots deny their own choice of politics to prevent the English getting their own choicve of politics? Given that the rUK mostly votes in Tory parties, Scotland not (Wales is a separate argument but the logic is similar).
You are taking it as an axiom that politics in Scotland is fundamentally different to that in England. I just don't think there are any fundamental differences.
Not axiom: observed behaviour. Look at the votes for Tory and LD and Labour for a start.
I think Labour's 'tradition' of losing general elections has more to do with them often having crap leaders and crap policies than the English being essentially right wing.
Er, can't you see that the two are one and the same thing? And look at the history of Labour in Scotland before 2010.
Sending a tweet while he was eating a curry hardly amounts to continuing to work
Anyway that can easily be proven by the record of when he returned to his hotel, which by the way was serving food upto 9.00pm and room service after. Furthermore eating establishments were open despite Starmer saying there were not
1. Have you never eaten and worked at the same time? I do that several times most weeks. 2. Tweeting can be work. Many organisations from charities to companies to public sector organisations literally pay people tweet.
Bearing in mind it's the Labour Party Twitter account, tweeting about campaigning, sent whilst the memo says they were at work/eating, you'd have to have conclusive proof it wasn't work and that probably doesn't exist.
I think this really confirms that they were working.
Along with the value of the food and beer, seems like a bog-standard working dinner to me.
. A Starmer FPN and he goes. Replace with Andy Burnham
Under NO circumstances:
He failed massively to win last time. Why? Because he is no bloody good.
He's not even an MP. Duh.
He will put off all the new Labour voters down sarf. And we still need them.
He has a penis.
So in the words of Maggie, 'No. No. No.'
What the fuck difference does it make that "he has a penis"? Are you high?
Says a man. And a tory man at that.
It makes 'the fuck difference' because Labour MUST choose a woman as next leader.
End of.
And I'm a Labour supporter. You're not. So piss off.
xx
Given that your party can't define what a woman is it's all a bit academic isn't it?
Non sequitur.
We need our next leader to be a woman. Whether that's someone who is a trans woman is another issue but I doubt the red wall thickos like Fucker Faroq would cope with it.
Next Labour leader must be a woman. End of.
Must be hard to keep track of your lines to take today, Vlad.
Yeah right Phillip Thompson.
See? Two can play the game.
The next Labour leader must and will be a woman. Sorry that this is causing such confusion for the right wing gammons.
Have a nice day folks.
Off out to walk around Hook Heath. I guess I could meet up with tlg86 some time and then that really will make you 'you're a troll' tories look even more stupid and dumbass than you already are (if that's poss.)
@PBModerator has said it's against the rules to doxx people.
Hoist with your own petard situation I'd have thought if you want to call vlad
Only if he genuinely is Vlad though.
One is a joke, a turn of phrase, the other is doxxing with full name.
Oh how we laughed and why should they be a "he"
Malcolm, do you think Alba still have a future after these elections? Not a single councillor in the whole of Scotland and some truly embarrassing figures in individual constituencies. It seems as if the SNP have drilled loyalty into their membership too well for a break off to thrive.
Looks a forlorn hope David. Looks like it will need to be Labour that cleanse the SNP ( the sheeple seem to forgive every useless policy , disaster , etc). If only they had a backbone and some independent thinking rather than just London clones. At some point someone with brains will get them out of just being patsies taking orders. They need to swing at least some way to independence , full fiscal autonomy or they will get nowhere. SNP are useless till Sturgeon and her clique of crooks, rogues and self ider's are history. She must fall soon , no-one can keep all that manure hidden forever. Meanwhile Scotland burns, gets ever more like a basket case that deserves to be just a colony.
Surely if you are a nationalist and dislike Sturgeon you already have a successful party to vote for - the Scottish Greens. I'm not a nat but recognise the clear electoral mandate last year for a 2nd referendum. Dodgy Alex and his cult weren't needed to deliver that, so why care that they have largely died out?
The Scottish Greens are ridiculously Woke, especially on things like Trans - they are even Wokier than the SNP (which is going some)
I don't think @malcolmg is particularly Woke, so I see his dilemma. Alba promised to be the non-Woke Nats, but they've now evanesced
We all take your perspective on Woke u Der advisement.
In the real world there are two established nationalist parties and there wasn't room for a third.
But both indy parties are social democratic leftwing parties
What about economic and cultural conservatives who also like indy? What should they do? Grin and bear it forever?
It is a problem for the cause
What is conservative about breaking up the union? There are no right wing nat parties because it's not a right wing position.
Then again, with right wing conservatives now arguing for the merits of trade barriers and costly red tape anything is possible...
What a cringingly stupid remark
I think he's got a point. A conservative position is to persist and preserve things that are not obviously broken. The state of the union is an interesting one because there are arguments both ways but living in Scotland I can tell you that, despite your view of the house colours in Wick, it's not all dreary and horrible. It works, to some extent. So a natural conservative position is, don't overthrow this, it's working. So what is the conservative argument for independence? I can come up with a couple of weakish ones, but they're not altogether convincing.
Well I suppose if you were very conservative you could make the case that the Union as a whole had always been a mistake, and so opposing the Act of Union as a radical innovation.
But it's a mistake to identify the right-wing as always being small 'c' conservatives. The Right can be very radical when they want to. And in general the Right tend to make the argument of drawing a tighter circle of empathy and leaving more people on the outside, so it goes quite naturally with nationalism. I find it very easy to see the right-wing case for Scottish independence.
It's the left-wing argument for Scottish independence that I find hard to understand. What part of "Workers of the World Unite" involves creating a new border on the island of Britain?
If Scots and English can't cooperate then what chance for cooperating across greater cultural differences?
Quite. Nationalism is generally a rightwing thing (see Ireland, where some of the separatists flirted with Fascism). Scotland is actually quite unusual in that its Nationalism is now prismed through leftwing parties.
Scot Nattery wasn't always like this. The SNP were once called "the Tartan Tories" for a reason
It was a clever strategic move by the SNP to shift to the left as part of a strategy to create as much difference with England as possible. They will receive votes from many Scottish Nationalists despite the left-wing politics, and can then use the left-wing politics to attract voters who would otherwise be suspicious of nationalism.
As soon as the referendum is won the left-wing politics will be dropped. It will then be "in the national interest".
On the final point - the voters can then vote for whomsoever they want after independence. And get the politics they want. Which is the whole point.
It will be the pressure of events that will drive politics to the right. The desperate need to balance the budget. The imperative to compete economically with England. Politicians turning to Nationalistic rhetoric to compensate for disappointed dreams.
That's pretty much exactly what happened in Ireland, which goes some way to explain the shambles there with the HSE, and politics dominated for a century by two centre-right parties, with only a small Labour Party.
Scottish independence would be a massive, epochal defeat for left-wing politics on the island of Britain.
Sending a tweet while he was eating a curry hardly amounts to continuing to work
Anyway that can easily be proven by the record of when he returned to his hotel, which by the way was serving food upto 9.00pm and room service after. Furthermore eating establishments were open despite Starmer saying there were not
1. Have you never eaten and worked at the same time? I do that several times most weeks. 2. Tweeting can be work. Many organisations from charities to companies to public sector organisations literally pay people tweet.
To be fair when I worked before I retired tweeting was not a thing
. A Starmer FPN and he goes. Replace with Andy Burnham
Under NO circumstances:
He failed massively to win last time. Why? Because he is no bloody good.
He's not even an MP. Duh.
He will put off all the new Labour voters down sarf. And we still need them.
He has a penis.
So in the words of Maggie, 'No. No. No.'
What the fuck difference does it make that "he has a penis"? Are you high?
Says a man. And a tory man at that.
It makes 'the fuck difference' because Labour MUST choose a woman as next leader.
End of.
And I'm a Labour supporter. You're not. So piss off.
xx
Given that your party can't define what a woman is it's all a bit academic isn't it?
Non sequitur.
We need our next leader to be a woman. Whether that's someone who is a trans woman is another issue but I doubt the red wall thickos like Fucker Faroq would cope with it.
Next Labour leader must be a woman. End of.
Must be hard to keep track of your lines to take today, Vlad.
Yeah right Phillip Thompson.
See? Two can play the game.
The next Labour leader must and will be a woman. Sorry that this is causing such confusion for the right wing gammons.
Have a nice day folks.
Off out to walk around Hook Heath. I guess I could meet up with tlg86 some time and then that really will make you 'you're a troll' tories look even more stupid and dumbass than you already are (if that's poss.)
@PBModerator has said it's against the rules to doxx people.
Hoist with your own petard situation I'd have thought if you want to call vlad
Only if he genuinely is Vlad though.
One is a joke, a turn of phrase, the other is doxxing with full name.
Oh how we laughed and why should they be a "he"
Malcolm, do you think Alba still have a future after these elections? Not a single councillor in the whole of Scotland and some truly embarrassing figures in individual constituencies. It seems as if the SNP have drilled loyalty into their membership too well for a break off to thrive.
Looks a forlorn hope David. Looks like it will need to be Labour that cleanse the SNP ( the sheeple seem to forgive every useless policy , disaster , etc). If only they had a backbone and some independent thinking rather than just London clones. At some point someone with brains will get them out of just being patsies taking orders. They need to swing at least some way to independence , full fiscal autonomy or they will get nowhere. SNP are useless till Sturgeon and her clique of crooks, rogues and self ider's are history. She must fall soon , no-one can keep all that manure hidden forever. Meanwhile Scotland burns, gets ever more like a basket case that deserves to be just a colony.
Surely if you are a nationalist and dislike Sturgeon you already have a successful party to vote for - the Scottish Greens. I'm not a nat but recognise the clear electoral mandate last year for a 2nd referendum. Dodgy Alex and his cult weren't needed to deliver that, so why care that they have largely died out?
The Scottish Greens are ridiculously Woke, especially on things like Trans - they are even Wokier than the SNP (which is going some)
I don't think @malcolmg is particularly Woke, so I see his dilemma. Alba promised to be the non-Woke Nats, but they've now evanesced
We all take your perspective on Woke u Der advisement.
In the real world there are two established nationalist parties and there wasn't room for a third.
But both indy parties are social democratic leftwing parties
What about economic and cultural conservatives who also like indy? What should they do? Grin and bear it forever?
It is a problem for the cause
What is conservative about breaking up the union? There are no right wing nat parties because it's not a right wing position.
Then again, with right wing conservatives now arguing for the merits of trade barriers and costly red tape anything is possible...
What a cringingly stupid remark
I think he's got a point. A conservative position is to persist and preserve things that are not obviously broken. The state of the union is an interesting one because there are arguments both ways but living in Scotland I can tell you that, despite your view of the house colours in Wick, it's not all dreary and horrible. It works, to some extent. So a natural conservative position is, don't overthrow this, it's working. So what is the conservative argument for independence? I can come up with a couple of weakish ones, but they're not altogether convincing.
Well I suppose if you were very conservative you could make the case that the Union as a whole had always been a mistake, and so opposing the Act of Union as a radical innovation.
But it's a mistake to identify the right-wing as always being small 'c' conservatives. The Right can be very radical when they want to. And in general the Right tend to make the argument of drawing a tighter circle of empathy and leaving more people on the outside, so it goes quite naturally with nationalism. I find it very easy to see the right-wing case for Scottish independence.
It's the left-wing argument for Scottish independence that I find hard to understand. What part of "Workers of the World Unite" involves creating a new border on the island of Britain?
If Scots and English can't cooperate then what chance for cooperating across greater cultural differences?
The problem with that was and remains - why should the Scots deny their own choice of politics to prevent the English getting their own choicve of politics? Given that the rUK mostly votes in Tory parties, Scotland not (Wales is a separate argument but the logic is similar).
You are taking it as an axiom that politics in Scotland is fundamentally different to that in England. I just don't think there are any fundamental differences.
Not axiom: observed behaviour. Look at the votes for Tory and LD and Labour for a start.
I think a lot of this is contingent. Things like having the poll tax introduced in Scotland first, and having a proportional element to elections to Holyrood, which allowed parties like the Scottish Socialists and the Greens to have a voice. And then also an effect of the SNP deciding to advocate for left-wing policies is that it shifts the Overton Window to the left.
So I see the current difference in voting patterns as a result of contingent events, and not a fundamental aspect of the nature of people in England or Scotland, and so I hope that left-wing politics will advance in England - and there are some promising signs of the Green Party making progress, for example.
Over half a century? That's a lot of contingency you are adducing. Things really started diverging about 1955 whern the Unionist Party gave up it sindependence and became part of the Conservatives.
Is it possible Starmer went back to work and some other people didn’t .
In which case what happens then .
I don't think that's relevant. AFAIK Durham Police have to determine two things: was the event illegal and did Starmer participate? This clearly was a work event and the schedule leaked by the Mail yesterday actually corroborates that. It would be illegal if there was a significant degree of apparently unscheduled socialisation. The case for an event that was actually promoted as "Birthday Party!" seems easier to make.
We don't know what evidence Durham Police are looking at, nor how they are going to call it. Going on what's known in the public domain it doesn't look particularly obvious to me, but I take a fairly relaxed view on all of these events/parties.
There is a potential hypocrisy argument to make against Starmer but (a) hypocrisy isn't illegal; (b) while Johnson refuses to resign over his actual FPN(s) it doesn't really land on Starmer. It would be different if Starmer is served with an FPN and also refuses to resign. I don't think that will happen because I think it more likely he won't get an FPN and he will resign anyway if he does.
Yeah, I'd like to hear Malky's view on it too. It never ceases to strike me how effective Sturgeon is. I've said in the past that I admire her. A measure of her success is the way the Conservatives were over the moon with the 2017 results and now in 2022 Labour also very pleased at wresting 2nd place back off them. When your opponents are pleased with second, it says a lot.
Salmond is just the latest in a long line of politicians who've tried to take her down and ended up in a crumpled heap instead. Whether you like her or not, her electoral record is astonishing.
EDIT Too slow, Malky's thoughts now apparent.
NS is a political colossus, no doubt, but her success is built on the foundation of conspicuously wanting, but not actually doing much to get, independence. While that approach has been electorally successful for a very long time it must run out of steam at some point.
It's one of the reasons I think Johnson would be happy to offer an indyref to the SNP as the price of confidence and support. He knows NS doesn't really want one and he'd believe, with some justification, that he could win it anyway.
The other reason he might do it is that he doesn't give a fuck about Scotland. That country being a minor subset of the many things that aren't Boris Johnson that he doesn't give a fuck about.
I hear it so much it makes me doubt myself, but I'm still quite convinced that this is a mistaken view. I detect a real eagerness for a vote from the SNP leadership, but they've put the lid on it because of Covid. Now the locals are out of the way, we'll see whether I'm right or wrong. I expect a big move before the summer is out. If we get to September and it's all tumbleweed, you're right and I'm wrong.
EDIT: rethinking slightly, by the end of the conference, when is that, October?
But there is nothing she can DO
Even if the entire Conference and its Nan decides "2023 is the year" she can call for a referendum and legislate for this and that and then Boris says No, and.... er..... then what?
She won't go for UDI or a wildcat vote
She is then reliant on Starmer (if he survives currygate) winning but winning so narrowly he needs to offer the SNP indyref2 in return for their support (but I don't believe Starmer would do that, either)
The Nat cause is in a fix. I am not sure how the fix is fixed
You're quite right, but what I'm saying is making the request and even taking it to court kills the "she doesn't really want it" narrative.
My prediction is that the SNP will move seriously on this. That's not the same as saying it will be granted by London. That's why it's "over to you, Nicola" and not "over to you, Boris" yet.
I agree. She has to do *something* and given that she won’t do UDI and Boris will say No to a vote it will then be a court case. Which she will surely lose
She then has to hope this riles Scots so much they give her an enormous majority at the next Holyrood elex (2025?) which she can then use as moral leverage to secure indyref2 from a weak London government. And by the late 2020s the “generation” argument will begin to wear thin
Trouble for her is that I don’t see this movement in Scottish public opinion. Which seems as bitterly and closely divided as ever. There has NOT been a decisive move to YES. Indeed the polls nudge towards NO of late
So it’s an impasse.
However no one got rich underestimating Sturgeon, she’s a formidable operator and a cunning politician, she may have some secret and brilliant plan up her manly sleeve
Sending a tweet while he was eating a curry hardly amounts to continuing to work
Anyway that can easily be proven by the record of when he returned to his hotel, which by the way was serving food upto 9.00pm and room service after. Furthermore eating establishments were open despite Starmer saying there were not
1. Have you never eaten and worked at the same time? I do that several times most weeks. 2. Tweeting can be work. Many organisations from charities to companies to public sector organisations literally pay people tweet.
Bearing in mind it's the Labour Party Twitter account, tweeting about campaigning, sent whilst the memo says they were at work/eating, you'd have to have conclusive proof it wasn't work and that probably doesn't exist.
I think this really confirms that they were working.
Along with the value of the food and beer, seems like a bog-standard working dinner to me.
The issue here is that attendees are refuting the idea it was work
. A Starmer FPN and he goes. Replace with Andy Burnham
Under NO circumstances:
He failed massively to win last time. Why? Because he is no bloody good.
He's not even an MP. Duh.
He will put off all the new Labour voters down sarf. And we still need them.
He has a penis.
So in the words of Maggie, 'No. No. No.'
What the fuck difference does it make that "he has a penis"? Are you high?
Says a man. And a tory man at that.
It makes 'the fuck difference' because Labour MUST choose a woman as next leader.
End of.
And I'm a Labour supporter. You're not. So piss off.
xx
Given that your party can't define what a woman is it's all a bit academic isn't it?
Non sequitur.
We need our next leader to be a woman. Whether that's someone who is a trans woman is another issue but I doubt the red wall thickos like Fucker Faroq would cope with it.
Next Labour leader must be a woman. End of.
Must be hard to keep track of your lines to take today, Vlad.
Yeah right Phillip Thompson.
See? Two can play the game.
The next Labour leader must and will be a woman. Sorry that this is causing such confusion for the right wing gammons.
Have a nice day folks.
Off out to walk around Hook Heath. I guess I could meet up with tlg86 some time and then that really will make you 'you're a troll' tories look even more stupid and dumbass than you already are (if that's poss.)
@PBModerator has said it's against the rules to doxx people.
Hoist with your own petard situation I'd have thought if you want to call vlad
Only if he genuinely is Vlad though.
One is a joke, a turn of phrase, the other is doxxing with full name.
Oh how we laughed and why should they be a "he"
Malcolm, do you think Alba still have a future after these elections? Not a single councillor in the whole of Scotland and some truly embarrassing figures in individual constituencies. It seems as if the SNP have drilled loyalty into their membership too well for a break off to thrive.
Looks a forlorn hope David. Looks like it will need to be Labour that cleanse the SNP ( the sheeple seem to forgive every useless policy , disaster , etc). If only they had a backbone and some independent thinking rather than just London clones. At some point someone with brains will get them out of just being patsies taking orders. They need to swing at least some way to independence , full fiscal autonomy or they will get nowhere. SNP are useless till Sturgeon and her clique of crooks, rogues and self ider's are history. She must fall soon , no-one can keep all that manure hidden forever. Meanwhile Scotland burns, gets ever more like a basket case that deserves to be just a colony.
Surely if you are a nationalist and dislike Sturgeon you already have a successful party to vote for - the Scottish Greens. I'm not a nat but recognise the clear electoral mandate last year for a 2nd referendum. Dodgy Alex and his cult weren't needed to deliver that, so why care that they have largely died out?
The Scottish Greens are ridiculously Woke, especially on things like Trans - they are even Wokier than the SNP (which is going some)
I don't think @malcolmg is particularly Woke, so I see his dilemma. Alba promised to be the non-Woke Nats, but they've now evanesced
We all take your perspective on Woke u Der advisement.
In the real world there are two established nationalist parties and there wasn't room for a third.
But both indy parties are social democratic leftwing parties
What about economic and cultural conservatives who also like indy? What should they do? Grin and bear it forever?
It is a problem for the cause
What is conservative about breaking up the union? There are no right wing nat parties because it's not a right wing position.
Then again, with right wing conservatives now arguing for the merits of trade barriers and costly red tape anything is possible...
What a cringingly stupid remark
I think he's got a point. A conservative position is to persist and preserve things that are not obviously broken. The state of the union is an interesting one because there are arguments both ways but living in Scotland I can tell you that, despite your view of the house colours in Wick, it's not all dreary and horrible. It works, to some extent. So a natural conservative position is, don't overthrow this, it's working. So what is the conservative argument for independence? I can come up with a couple of weakish ones, but they're not altogether convincing.
Well I suppose if you were very conservative you could make the case that the Union as a whole had always been a mistake, and so opposing the Act of Union as a radical innovation.
But it's a mistake to identify the right-wing as always being small 'c' conservatives. The Right can be very radical when they want to. And in general the Right tend to make the argument of drawing a tighter circle of empathy and leaving more people on the outside, so it goes quite naturally with nationalism. I find it very easy to see the right-wing case for Scottish independence.
It's the left-wing argument for Scottish independence that I find hard to understand. What part of "Workers of the World Unite" involves creating a new border on the island of Britain?
If Scots and English can't cooperate then what chance for cooperating across greater cultural differences?
Quite. Nationalism is generally a rightwing thing (see Ireland, where some of the separatists flirted with Fascism). Scotland is actually quite unusual in that its Nationalism is now prismed through leftwing parties.
Scot Nattery wasn't always like this. The SNP were once called "the Tartan Tories" for a reason
It was a clever strategic move by the SNP to shift to the left as part of a strategy to create as much difference with England as possible. They will receive votes from many Scottish Nationalists despite the left-wing politics, and can then use the left-wing politics to attract voters who would otherwise be suspicious of nationalism.
As soon as the referendum is won the left-wing politics will be dropped. It will then be "in the national interest".
On the final point - the voters can then vote for whomsoever they want after independence. And get the politics they want. Which is the whole point.
It will be the pressure of events that will drive politics to the right. The desperate need to balance the budget. The imperative to compete economically with England. Politicians turning to Nationalistic rhetoric to compensate for disappointed dreams.
That's pretty much exactly what happened in Ireland, which goes some way to explain the shambles there with the HSE, and politics dominated for a century by two centre-right parties, with only a small Labour Party.
Scottish independence would be a massive, epochal defeat for left-wing politics on the island of Britain.
You mean that it's not defeated already? Come off it, it's already dead, except in Scotland and Wales, on the electoral evidence. Even Labour in Scotland is markedly to the right of the SNP, never mind the SGs.
Edit: OK, slight exaggeration in the heat of the moment. But the basic point stands. Labour is, as always, asking the Scots to suck it up because they are so incompetent, or people won't vote for them, in the UK as a whole.
That's not proof that the Tweet was sent from the event; that it was him who sent it; that the event as a whole wasn't tainted even if he was working (the "Rishi" scenario).
Not saying you are wrong, just that you haven't proved it
"The [public] inquiry must not be diverted into the minutiae of arguments about whether we should have locked down a week or two weeks earlier. It must be free to examine the whole strategy - in particular, why robust social science evidence on managing emergencies, and its contribution to pandemic planning since the early 2000s, was abandoned so precipitately."
Ncuti Gatwa will take over from Jodie Whittaker as the star of Doctor Who, the BBC has announced. The 29-year-old actor will become the 14th Time Lord on the popular science fiction show, and the first non-white Doctor.
One user is positively orgasmic over Starmer, he's wetting his pants right now
I know you are very focused on "bullying" as an issue.
You really should look at the beam in your own eye first.
That kind of demeaning language denigrates and undermines an individual (we all know who it is) and is a classic example of the the type of behaviour that would weigh heavily in "creating a hostile environment" in a legal situation
Coming very late to this discussion due to work so probably everything has already been said. But I do hope TSE is right and Starmer does do he right thing and stand down if he is fined. I have no particular like or dislike for Starmer and think it would maybe be a bit of a shame if he were to go but it would be the right thing to do and, to my mind, would hopefully precipitate the end of Johnson. That seems to be very much a sacrifice worth Starmer making for the sake of the country.
Of course I presume this would also mean Angela Rayner going but again I am not really fussed one way or another about that. Undermining Johnson's ridiculous position seems to me to be the great prize in this game.
Not sure this would work out as intended. Can see Starmer resigning, Boris staying and that actually re-enforcing the Boris brand of being a winner, invincible and someone above normal politics. Plenty of votes from those characteristics, even if it costs him other votes on the other side (shameless, lying, selfish, one rule for him etc).
UNfortunately that seems likely in that scenario.
Perhaps Starmer could offer his resignation in a public vote of no confidence, open to not just Labour members. High risk, but he'd likely win.
. A Starmer FPN and he goes. Replace with Andy Burnham
Under NO circumstances:
He failed massively to win last time. Why? Because he is no bloody good.
He's not even an MP. Duh.
He will put off all the new Labour voters down sarf. And we still need them.
He has a penis.
So in the words of Maggie, 'No. No. No.'
What the fuck difference does it make that "he has a penis"? Are you high?
Says a man. And a tory man at that.
It makes 'the fuck difference' because Labour MUST choose a woman as next leader.
End of.
And I'm a Labour supporter. You're not. So piss off.
xx
Given that your party can't define what a woman is it's all a bit academic isn't it?
Non sequitur.
We need our next leader to be a woman. Whether that's someone who is a trans woman is another issue but I doubt the red wall thickos like Fucker Faroq would cope with it.
Next Labour leader must be a woman. End of.
Must be hard to keep track of your lines to take today, Vlad.
Yeah right Phillip Thompson.
See? Two can play the game.
The next Labour leader must and will be a woman. Sorry that this is causing such confusion for the right wing gammons.
Have a nice day folks.
Off out to walk around Hook Heath. I guess I could meet up with tlg86 some time and then that really will make you 'you're a troll' tories look even more stupid and dumbass than you already are (if that's poss.)
@PBModerator has said it's against the rules to doxx people.
Hoist with your own petard situation I'd have thought if you want to call vlad
Only if he genuinely is Vlad though.
One is a joke, a turn of phrase, the other is doxxing with full name.
Oh how we laughed and why should they be a "he"
Malcolm, do you think Alba still have a future after these elections? Not a single councillor in the whole of Scotland and some truly embarrassing figures in individual constituencies. It seems as if the SNP have drilled loyalty into their membership too well for a break off to thrive.
Looks a forlorn hope David. Looks like it will need to be Labour that cleanse the SNP ( the sheeple seem to forgive every useless policy , disaster , etc). If only they had a backbone and some independent thinking rather than just London clones. At some point someone with brains will get them out of just being patsies taking orders. They need to swing at least some way to independence , full fiscal autonomy or they will get nowhere. SNP are useless till Sturgeon and her clique of crooks, rogues and self ider's are history. She must fall soon , no-one can keep all that manure hidden forever. Meanwhile Scotland burns, gets ever more like a basket case that deserves to be just a colony.
Surely if you are a nationalist and dislike Sturgeon you already have a successful party to vote for - the Scottish Greens. I'm not a nat but recognise the clear electoral mandate last year for a 2nd referendum. Dodgy Alex and his cult weren't needed to deliver that, so why care that they have largely died out?
The Scottish Greens are ridiculously Woke, especially on things like Trans - they are even Wokier than the SNP (which is going some)
I don't think @malcolmg is particularly Woke, so I see his dilemma. Alba promised to be the non-Woke Nats, but they've now evanesced
We all take your perspective on Woke u Der advisement.
In the real world there are two established nationalist parties and there wasn't room for a third.
But both indy parties are social democratic leftwing parties
What about economic and cultural conservatives who also like indy? What should they do? Grin and bear it forever?
It is a problem for the cause
What is conservative about breaking up the union? There are no right wing nat parties because it's not a right wing position.
Then again, with right wing conservatives now arguing for the merits of trade barriers and costly red tape anything is possible...
What a cringingly stupid remark
I think he's got a point. A conservative position is to persist and preserve things that are not obviously broken. The state of the union is an interesting one because there are arguments both ways but living in Scotland I can tell you that, despite your view of the house colours in Wick, it's not all dreary and horrible. It works, to some extent. So a natural conservative position is, don't overthrow this, it's working. So what is the conservative argument for independence? I can come up with a couple of weakish ones, but they're not altogether convincing.
Well I suppose if you were very conservative you could make the case that the Union as a whole had always been a mistake, and so opposing the Act of Union as a radical innovation.
But it's a mistake to identify the right-wing as always being small 'c' conservatives. The Right can be very radical when they want to. And in general the Right tend to make the argument of drawing a tighter circle of empathy and leaving more people on the outside, so it goes quite naturally with nationalism. I find it very easy to see the right-wing case for Scottish independence.
It's the left-wing argument for Scottish independence that I find hard to understand. What part of "Workers of the World Unite" involves creating a new border on the island of Britain?
If Scots and English can't cooperate then what chance for cooperating across greater cultural differences?
The problem with that was and remains - why should the Scots deny their own choice of politics to prevent the English getting their own choicve of politics? Given that the rUK mostly votes in Tory parties, Scotland not (Wales is a separate argument but the logic is similar).
You are taking it as an axiom that politics in Scotland is fundamentally different to that in England. I just don't think there are any fundamental differences.
Not axiom: observed behaviour. Look at the votes for Tory and LD and Labour for a start.
I think a lot of this is contingent. Things like having the poll tax introduced in Scotland first, and having a proportional element to elections to Holyrood, which allowed parties like the Scottish Socialists and the Greens to have a voice. And then also an effect of the SNP deciding to advocate for left-wing policies is that it shifts the Overton Window to the left.
So I see the current difference in voting patterns as a result of contingent events, and not a fundamental aspect of the nature of people in England or Scotland, and so I hope that left-wing politics will advance in England - and there are some promising signs of the Green Party making progress, for example.
Over half a century? That's a lot of contingency you are adducing. Things really started diverging about 1955 whern the Unionist Party gave up it sindependence and became part of the Conservatives.
You seem to be agreeing with me that a political divergence occurred in reaction to events. This implies that it's not fundamental and a convergence can happen in the future.
One user is positively orgasmic over Starmer, he's wetting his pants right now
I know you are very focused on "bullying" as an issue.
You really should look at the beam in your own eye first.
That kind of demeaning language denigrates and undermines an individual (we all know who it is) and is a classic example of the the type of behaviour that would weigh heavily in "creating a hostile environment" in a legal situation
And I love he fact that sending a tweet apparently equates to 'work'.
It might even make me join twitter.
"Yes dear, I'm working hard. I'm just letting people know my opinion on Strictly Coming Dancing..."
It proves they were doing work for a campaign, which is what they claimed.
You have no way to prove he didn't send it, or if one of his team there sent it. That is proof that they were working after/during the meal.
Lordy. You evidently have a very different definition of 'work' to me.
It's hilarious seeing *some* of the Labour supporters who gave Boris absolutely no quarter in partygate now looking for any little thing that might absolve their leader. It suggests they're not actually bothered about the sin, more the identity of the sinner...
"The [public] inquiry must not be diverted into the minutiae of arguments about whether we should have locked down a week or two weeks earlier. It must be free to examine the whole strategy - in particular, why robust social science evidence on managing emergencies, and its contribution to pandemic planning since the early 2000s, was abandoned so precipitately."
And I love he fact that sending a tweet apparently equates to 'work'.
It might even make me join twitter.
"Yes dear, I'm working hard. I'm just letting people know my opinion on Strictly Coming Dancing..."
It proves they were doing work for a campaign, which is what they claimed.
You have no way to prove he didn't send it, or if one of his team there sent it. That is proof that they were working after/during the meal.
Lordy. You evidently have a very different definition of 'work' to me.
It's hilarious seeing *some* of the Labour supporters who gave Boris absolutely no quarter in partygate now looking for any little thing that might absolve their leader. It suggests they're not actually bothered about the sin, more the identity of the sinner...
If Starmer gets fined by the Durham Police he must resign. Absolutely 100%. Until then we can speculate.
That's not proof that the Tweet was sent from the event; that it was him who sent it; that the event as a whole wasn't tainted even if he was working (the "Rishi" scenario).
Not saying you are wrong, just that you haven't proved it
This is very much at the heart of the issue and the source was an attendee
The source who was present is willing to help police with their inquiries. Crucially, the source said Starmer did not go back to work after eating his curry: “It has been claimed that Starmer worked during the curry and then after the curry. None of those two things happened. He did not go back to work to the best of my knowledge.”
They also accused some attendees, including Foy and her staff, of not working at all and only being there to socialise.
“They were just there drinking,” said the source. “This made some people feel uncomfortable because they knew there was a risk we could be accused of breaking the rules.
“Mary Foy and her staff were not working and I have not got a problem telling that to the police. They were just getting pissed. They were just there for a jolly. It’s not something that I am prepared to defend. They just thought it was pretty cool to hang out with the leader and deputy leader of the Labour Party. I wouldn’t say they were hammered but they were definitely a little bit tipsy by the end.”
The source added: “In my view, it was an event that is akin to when the prime minister and Rishi Sunak were ambushed by a birthday cake.”
Yeah, I'd like to hear Malky's view on it too. It never ceases to strike me how effective Sturgeon is. I've said in the past that I admire her. A measure of her success is the way the Conservatives were over the moon with the 2017 results and now in 2022 Labour also very pleased at wresting 2nd place back off them. When your opponents are pleased with second, it says a lot.
Salmond is just the latest in a long line of politicians who've tried to take her down and ended up in a crumpled heap instead. Whether you like her or not, her electoral record is astonishing.
EDIT Too slow, Malky's thoughts now apparent.
NS is a political colossus, no doubt, but her success is built on the foundation of conspicuously wanting, but not actually doing much to get, independence. While that approach has been electorally successful for a very long time it must run out of steam at some point.
It's one of the reasons I think Johnson would be happy to offer an indyref to the SNP as the price of confidence and support. He knows NS doesn't really want one and he'd believe, with some justification, that he could win it anyway.
The other reason he might do it is that he doesn't give a fuck about Scotland. That country being a minor subset of the many things that aren't Boris Johnson that he doesn't give a fuck about.
I think complaining about the Union but doing little to leave it is in line with the wishes of the majority of Scottish voters.
Which would explain why it only seems to be a small subset of the SNP ranks (and the handful who have jumped ship to Alba) who are truly mad at her for not pushing hard enough. The rest seem content to take their time.
. A Starmer FPN and he goes. Replace with Andy Burnham
Under NO circumstances:
He failed massively to win last time. Why? Because he is no bloody good.
He's not even an MP. Duh.
He will put off all the new Labour voters down sarf. And we still need them.
He has a penis.
So in the words of Maggie, 'No. No. No.'
What the fuck difference does it make that "he has a penis"? Are you high?
Says a man. And a tory man at that.
It makes 'the fuck difference' because Labour MUST choose a woman as next leader.
End of.
And I'm a Labour supporter. You're not. So piss off.
xx
Given that your party can't define what a woman is it's all a bit academic isn't it?
Non sequitur.
We need our next leader to be a woman. Whether that's someone who is a trans woman is another issue but I doubt the red wall thickos like Fucker Faroq would cope with it.
Next Labour leader must be a woman. End of.
Must be hard to keep track of your lines to take today, Vlad.
Yeah right Phillip Thompson.
See? Two can play the game.
The next Labour leader must and will be a woman. Sorry that this is causing such confusion for the right wing gammons.
Have a nice day folks.
Off out to walk around Hook Heath. I guess I could meet up with tlg86 some time and then that really will make you 'you're a troll' tories look even more stupid and dumbass than you already are (if that's poss.)
@PBModerator has said it's against the rules to doxx people.
Hoist with your own petard situation I'd have thought if you want to call vlad
Only if he genuinely is Vlad though.
One is a joke, a turn of phrase, the other is doxxing with full name.
Oh how we laughed and why should they be a "he"
Malcolm, do you think Alba still have a future after these elections? Not a single councillor in the whole of Scotland and some truly embarrassing figures in individual constituencies. It seems as if the SNP have drilled loyalty into their membership too well for a break off to thrive.
Looks a forlorn hope David. Looks like it will need to be Labour that cleanse the SNP ( the sheeple seem to forgive every useless policy , disaster , etc). If only they had a backbone and some independent thinking rather than just London clones. At some point someone with brains will get them out of just being patsies taking orders. They need to swing at least some way to independence , full fiscal autonomy or they will get nowhere. SNP are useless till Sturgeon and her clique of crooks, rogues and self ider's are history. She must fall soon , no-one can keep all that manure hidden forever. Meanwhile Scotland burns, gets ever more like a basket case that deserves to be just a colony.
Surely if you are a nationalist and dislike Sturgeon you already have a successful party to vote for - the Scottish Greens. I'm not a nat but recognise the clear electoral mandate last year for a 2nd referendum. Dodgy Alex and his cult weren't needed to deliver that, so why care that they have largely died out?
The Scottish Greens are ridiculously Woke, especially on things like Trans - they are even Wokier than the SNP (which is going some)
I don't think @malcolmg is particularly Woke, so I see his dilemma. Alba promised to be the non-Woke Nats, but they've now evanesced
We all take your perspective on Woke u Der advisement.
In the real world there are two established nationalist parties and there wasn't room for a third.
But both indy parties are social democratic leftwing parties
What about economic and cultural conservatives who also like indy? What should they do? Grin and bear it forever?
It is a problem for the cause
What is conservative about breaking up the union? There are no right wing nat parties because it's not a right wing position.
Then again, with right wing conservatives now arguing for the merits of trade barriers and costly red tape anything is possible...
What a cringingly stupid remark
I think he's got a point. A conservative position is to persist and preserve things that are not obviously broken. The state of the union is an interesting one because there are arguments both ways but living in Scotland I can tell you that, despite your view of the house colours in Wick, it's not all dreary and horrible. It works, to some extent. So a natural conservative position is, don't overthrow this, it's working. So what is the conservative argument for independence? I can come up with a couple of weakish ones, but they're not altogether convincing.
Well I suppose if you were very conservative you could make the case that the Union as a whole had always been a mistake, and so opposing the Act of Union as a radical innovation.
But it's a mistake to identify the right-wing as always being small 'c' conservatives. The Right can be very radical when they want to. And in general the Right tend to make the argument of drawing a tighter circle of empathy and leaving more people on the outside, so it goes quite naturally with nationalism. I find it very easy to see the right-wing case for Scottish independence.
It's the left-wing argument for Scottish independence that I find hard to understand. What part of "Workers of the World Unite" involves creating a new border on the island of Britain?
If Scots and English can't cooperate then what chance for cooperating across greater cultural differences?
Quite. Nationalism is generally a rightwing thing (see Ireland, where some of the separatists flirted with Fascism). Scotland is actually quite unusual in that its Nationalism is now prismed through leftwing parties.
Scot Nattery wasn't always like this. The SNP were once called "the Tartan Tories" for a reason
It was a clever strategic move by the SNP to shift to the left as part of a strategy to create as much difference with England as possible. They will receive votes from many Scottish Nationalists despite the left-wing politics, and can then use the left-wing politics to attract voters who would otherwise be suspicious of nationalism.
As soon as the referendum is won the left-wing politics will be dropped. It will then be "in the national interest".
On the final point - the voters can then vote for whomsoever they want after independence. And get the politics they want. Which is the whole point.
It will be the pressure of events that will drive politics to the right. The desperate need to balance the budget. The imperative to compete economically with England. Politicians turning to Nationalistic rhetoric to compensate for disappointed dreams.
That's pretty much exactly what happened in Ireland, which goes some way to explain the shambles there with the HSE, and politics dominated for a century by two centre-right parties, with only a small Labour Party.
Scottish independence would be a massive, epochal defeat for left-wing politics on the island of Britain.
You mean that it's not defeated already? Come off it, it's already dead, except in Scotland and Wales, on the electoral evidence. Even Labour in Scotland is markedly to the right of the SNP, never mind the SGs.
Edit: OK, slight exaggeration in the heat of the moment. But the basic point stands. Labour is, as always, asking the Scots to suck it up because they are so incompetent, or people won't vote for them, in the UK as a whole.
It's a fundamental tenet of left-wing politics that the future can be better than the past. Left-wing politics is struggling in most places at the moment, but of course I believe that the arguments can be made again, better in the future, with better leaders, and past defeats reversed.
If I didn't believe that I'd have to give up and find refuge in some petty nationalism instead...
Sunday Times claims Boris Johnson personally "despises" his opposite number. An ally says: "He genuinely does not like Keir. He sees this man as part of a privileged, metropolitan, narrow-minded elite uncomfortable with the raw instincts of the vast majority of British people."
Ah, so that's why he got the Mail on this
Astonishing projection from Boris there
I find the claimed comment to be pretty disturbing. He must be a petty man indeed to outright despise someone for be allegedly privileged and 'uncomfortable' (not even opposed, but uncomfortable) with the public on some issues.
That's not proof that the Tweet was sent from the event; that it was him who sent it; that the event as a whole wasn't tainted even if he was working (the "Rishi" scenario).
Not saying you are wrong, just that you haven't proved it
This is very much at the heart of the issue and the source was an attendee
The source who was present is willing to help police with their inquiries. Crucially, the source said Starmer did not go back to work after eating his curry: “It has been claimed that Starmer worked during the curry and then after the curry. None of those two things happened. He did not go back to work to the best of my knowledge.”
They also accused some attendees, including Foy and her staff, of not working at all and only being there to socialise.
“They were just there drinking,” said the source. “This made some people feel uncomfortable because they knew there was a risk we could be accused of breaking the rules.
“Mary Foy and her staff were not working and I have not got a problem telling that to the police. They were just getting pissed. They were just there for a jolly. It’s not something that I am prepared to defend. They just thought it was pretty cool to hang out with the leader and deputy leader of the Labour Party. I wouldn’t say they were hammered but they were definitely a little bit tipsy by the end.”
The source added: “In my view, it was an event that is akin to when the prime minister and Rishi Sunak were ambushed by a birthday cake.”
To the best of my knowledge ! Look out for the Mirror and Guardian over the next few days . If they don’t produce something helpful for Starmer then I’d see that as curtains for him , if they do he might survive .
Coming very late to this discussion due to work so probably everything has already been said. But I do hope TSE is right and Starmer does do he right thing and stand down if he is fined. I have no particular like or dislike for Starmer and think it would maybe be a bit of a shame if he were to go but it would be the right thing to do and, to my mind, would hopefully precipitate the end of Johnson. That seems to be very much a sacrifice worth Starmer making for the sake of the country.
Of course I presume this would also mean Angela Rayner going but again I am not really fussed one way or another about that. Undermining Johnson's ridiculous position seems to me to be the great prize in this game.
I very much doubt Johnson will resign in any case. The interesting question to me is whether Starmer going in the case of getting a FPN (which I think is more likely not to happen but Durham Police will make the call on that ) - will that weaken the Labour Party because Starmer is actually not bad or because of the turmoil? Or would Labour be strengthened by getting a different leader, presumably to the detriment of the Tories.
Depends on the leader, I think. Rebecca Long Bailey would see Ed Davey as LOTO, imo, whereas Streeting would be continuity Starmer and in with a shout of triangulating the Tories to their reactionary hardcore.
. A Starmer FPN and he goes. Replace with Andy Burnham
Under NO circumstances:
He failed massively to win last time. Why? Because he is no bloody good.
He's not even an MP. Duh.
He will put off all the new Labour voters down sarf. And we still need them.
He has a penis.
So in the words of Maggie, 'No. No. No.'
What the fuck difference does it make that "he has a penis"? Are you high?
Says a man. And a tory man at that.
It makes 'the fuck difference' because Labour MUST choose a woman as next leader.
End of.
And I'm a Labour supporter. You're not. So piss off.
xx
Given that your party can't define what a woman is it's all a bit academic isn't it?
Non sequitur.
We need our next leader to be a woman. Whether that's someone who is a trans woman is another issue but I doubt the red wall thickos like Fucker Faroq would cope with it.
Next Labour leader must be a woman. End of.
Must be hard to keep track of your lines to take today, Vlad.
Yeah right Phillip Thompson.
See? Two can play the game.
The next Labour leader must and will be a woman. Sorry that this is causing such confusion for the right wing gammons.
Have a nice day folks.
Off out to walk around Hook Heath. I guess I could meet up with tlg86 some time and then that really will make you 'you're a troll' tories look even more stupid and dumbass than you already are (if that's poss.)
@PBModerator has said it's against the rules to doxx people.
Hoist with your own petard situation I'd have thought if you want to call vlad
Only if he genuinely is Vlad though.
One is a joke, a turn of phrase, the other is doxxing with full name.
Oh how we laughed and why should they be a "he"
Malcolm, do you think Alba still have a future after these elections? Not a single councillor in the whole of Scotland and some truly embarrassing figures in individual constituencies. It seems as if the SNP have drilled loyalty into their membership too well for a break off to thrive.
Looks a forlorn hope David. Looks like it will need to be Labour that cleanse the SNP ( the sheeple seem to forgive every useless policy , disaster , etc). If only they had a backbone and some independent thinking rather than just London clones. At some point someone with brains will get them out of just being patsies taking orders. They need to swing at least some way to independence , full fiscal autonomy or they will get nowhere. SNP are useless till Sturgeon and her clique of crooks, rogues and self ider's are history. She must fall soon , no-one can keep all that manure hidden forever. Meanwhile Scotland burns, gets ever more like a basket case that deserves to be just a colony.
Surely if you are a nationalist and dislike Sturgeon you already have a successful party to vote for - the Scottish Greens. I'm not a nat but recognise the clear electoral mandate last year for a 2nd referendum. Dodgy Alex and his cult weren't needed to deliver that, so why care that they have largely died out?
The Scottish Greens are ridiculously Woke, especially on things like Trans - they are even Wokier than the SNP (which is going some)
I don't think @malcolmg is particularly Woke, so I see his dilemma. Alba promised to be the non-Woke Nats, but they've now evanesced
We all take your perspective on Woke u Der advisement.
In the real world there are two established nationalist parties and there wasn't room for a third.
But both indy parties are social democratic leftwing parties
What about economic and cultural conservatives who also like indy? What should they do? Grin and bear it forever?
It is a problem for the cause
What is conservative about breaking up the union? There are no right wing nat parties because it's not a right wing position.
Then again, with right wing conservatives now arguing for the merits of trade barriers and costly red tape anything is possible...
What a cringingly stupid remark
I think he's got a point. A conservative position is to persist and preserve things that are not obviously broken. The state of the union is an interesting one because there are arguments both ways but living in Scotland I can tell you that, despite your view of the house colours in Wick, it's not all dreary and horrible. It works, to some extent. So a natural conservative position is, don't overthrow this, it's working. So what is the conservative argument for independence? I can come up with a couple of weakish ones, but they're not altogether convincing.
Well I suppose if you were very conservative you could make the case that the Union as a whole had always been a mistake, and so opposing the Act of Union as a radical innovation.
But it's a mistake to identify the right-wing as always being small 'c' conservatives. The Right can be very radical when they want to. And in general the Right tend to make the argument of drawing a tighter circle of empathy and leaving more people on the outside, so it goes quite naturally with nationalism. I find it very easy to see the right-wing case for Scottish independence.
It's the left-wing argument for Scottish independence that I find hard to understand. What part of "Workers of the World Unite" involves creating a new border on the island of Britain?
If Scots and English can't cooperate then what chance for cooperating across greater cultural differences?
The problem with that was and remains - why should the Scots deny their own choice of politics to prevent the English getting their own choicve of politics? Given that the rUK mostly votes in Tory parties, Scotland not (Wales is a separate argument but the logic is similar).
You are taking it as an axiom that politics in Scotland is fundamentally different to that in England. I just don't think there are any fundamental differences.
Not axiom: observed behaviour. Look at the votes for Tory and LD and Labour for a start.
I think a lot of this is contingent. Things like having the poll tax introduced in Scotland first, and having a proportional element to elections to Holyrood, which allowed parties like the Scottish Socialists and the Greens to have a voice. And then also an effect of the SNP deciding to advocate for left-wing policies is that it shifts the Overton Window to the left.
So I see the current difference in voting patterns as a result of contingent events, and not a fundamental aspect of the nature of people in England or Scotland, and so I hope that left-wing politics will advance in England - and there are some promising signs of the Green Party making progress, for example.
Over half a century? That's a lot of contingency you are adducing. Things really started diverging about 1955 whern the Unionist Party gave up it sindependence and became part of the Conservatives.
You seem to be agreeing with me that a political divergence occurred in reaction to events. This implies that it's not fundamental and a convergence can happen in the future.
Oh yes, but timescales, timescales. Confronted with the likelihood of the Tories winning the next election once Mr J has been dumped, and the one after that, and so on and so on ...
Sunday Times claims Boris Johnson personally "despises" his opposite number. An ally says: "He genuinely does not like Keir. He sees this man as part of a privileged, metropolitan, narrow-minded elite uncomfortable with the raw instincts of the vast majority of British people."
As opposed to the privileged guy entirely confident in the raw instincts of Boris Johnson which he projects onto the ‘vast majority of British people’?
. A Starmer FPN and he goes. Replace with Andy Burnham
Under NO circumstances:
He failed massively to win last time. Why? Because he is no bloody good.
He's not even an MP. Duh.
He will put off all the new Labour voters down sarf. And we still need them.
He has a penis.
So in the words of Maggie, 'No. No. No.'
What the fuck difference does it make that "he has a penis"? Are you high?
Says a man. And a tory man at that.
It makes 'the fuck difference' because Labour MUST choose a woman as next leader.
End of.
And I'm a Labour supporter. You're not. So piss off.
xx
Given that your party can't define what a woman is it's all a bit academic isn't it?
Non sequitur.
We need our next leader to be a woman. Whether that's someone who is a trans woman is another issue but I doubt the red wall thickos like Fucker Faroq would cope with it.
Next Labour leader must be a woman. End of.
Must be hard to keep track of your lines to take today, Vlad.
Yeah right Phillip Thompson.
See? Two can play the game.
The next Labour leader must and will be a woman. Sorry that this is causing such confusion for the right wing gammons.
Have a nice day folks.
Off out to walk around Hook Heath. I guess I could meet up with tlg86 some time and then that really will make you 'you're a troll' tories look even more stupid and dumbass than you already are (if that's poss.)
@PBModerator has said it's against the rules to doxx people.
Hoist with your own petard situation I'd have thought if you want to call vlad
Only if he genuinely is Vlad though.
One is a joke, a turn of phrase, the other is doxxing with full name.
Oh how we laughed and why should they be a "he"
Malcolm, do you think Alba still have a future after these elections? Not a single councillor in the whole of Scotland and some truly embarrassing figures in individual constituencies. It seems as if the SNP have drilled loyalty into their membership too well for a break off to thrive.
Looks a forlorn hope David. Looks like it will need to be Labour that cleanse the SNP ( the sheeple seem to forgive every useless policy , disaster , etc). If only they had a backbone and some independent thinking rather than just London clones. At some point someone with brains will get them out of just being patsies taking orders. They need to swing at least some way to independence , full fiscal autonomy or they will get nowhere. SNP are useless till Sturgeon and her clique of crooks, rogues and self ider's are history. She must fall soon , no-one can keep all that manure hidden forever. Meanwhile Scotland burns, gets ever more like a basket case that deserves to be just a colony.
Surely if you are a nationalist and dislike Sturgeon you already have a successful party to vote for - the Scottish Greens. I'm not a nat but recognise the clear electoral mandate last year for a 2nd referendum. Dodgy Alex and his cult weren't needed to deliver that, so why care that they have largely died out?
The Scottish Greens are ridiculously Woke, especially on things like Trans - they are even Wokier than the SNP (which is going some)
I don't think @malcolmg is particularly Woke, so I see his dilemma. Alba promised to be the non-Woke Nats, but they've now evanesced
We all take your perspective on Woke u Der advisement.
In the real world there are two established nationalist parties and there wasn't room for a third.
But both indy parties are social democratic leftwing parties
What about economic and cultural conservatives who also like indy? What should they do? Grin and bear it forever?
It is a problem for the cause
What is conservative about breaking up the union? There are no right wing nat parties because it's not a right wing position.
Then again, with right wing conservatives now arguing for the merits of trade barriers and costly red tape anything is possible...
What a cringingly stupid remark
I think he's got a point. A conservative position is to persist and preserve things that are not obviously broken. The state of the union is an interesting one because there are arguments both ways but living in Scotland I can tell you that, despite your view of the house colours in Wick, it's not all dreary and horrible. It works, to some extent. So a natural conservative position is, don't overthrow this, it's working. So what is the conservative argument for independence? I can come up with a couple of weakish ones, but they're not altogether convincing.
Well I suppose if you were very conservative you could make the case that the Union as a whole had always been a mistake, and so opposing the Act of Union as a radical innovation.
But it's a mistake to identify the right-wing as always being small 'c' conservatives. The Right can be very radical when they want to. And in general the Right tend to make the argument of drawing a tighter circle of empathy and leaving more people on the outside, so it goes quite naturally with nationalism. I find it very easy to see the right-wing case for Scottish independence.
It's the left-wing argument for Scottish independence that I find hard to understand. What part of "Workers of the World Unite" involves creating a new border on the island of Britain?
If Scots and English can't cooperate then what chance for cooperating across greater cultural differences?
Quite. Nationalism is generally a rightwing thing (see Ireland, where some of the separatists flirted with Fascism). Scotland is actually quite unusual in that its Nationalism is now prismed through leftwing parties.
Scot Nattery wasn't always like this. The SNP were once called "the Tartan Tories" for a reason
It was a clever strategic move by the SNP to shift to the left as part of a strategy to create as much difference with England as possible. They will receive votes from many Scottish Nationalists despite the left-wing politics, and can then use the left-wing politics to attract voters who would otherwise be suspicious of nationalism.
As soon as the referendum is won the left-wing politics will be dropped. It will then be "in the national interest".
In your somewhat partial hypothesis, there won’t be an SNP, just post-indy parties of various hues. Insofar as left wing politics were involved, I’m pretty sure every UK Labour government has explicitly stated that they govern ‘in the national interest’.
Didn't every government until this one claim that? (Now, as we know from certain fans, governing for the winning side alone is ok)
Is it possible Starmer went back to work and some other people didn’t .
In which case what happens then .
I don't think that's relevant. AFAIK Durham Police have to determine two things: was the event illegal and did Starmer participate? This clearly was a work event and the schedule leaked by the Mail yesterday actually corroborates that. It would be illegal if there was a significant degree of apparently unscheduled socialisation. The case for an event that was actually promoted as "Birthday Party!" seems easier to make.
We don't know what evidence Durham Police are looking at, nor how they are going to call it. Going on what's known in the public domain it doesn't look particularly obvious to me, but I take a fairly relaxed view on all of these events/parties.
There is a potential hypocrisy argument to make against Starmer but (a) hypocrisy isn't illegal; (b) while Johnson refuses to resign over his actual FPN(s) it doesn't really land on Starmer. It would be different if Starmer is served with an FPN and also refuses to resign. I don't think that will happen because I think it more likely he won't get an FPN and he will resign anyway if he does.
The issue, as I see it, isn't whether it was "a work event" but whether it was "reasonably necessary for work".
We know that there were other sources of food available, so the teams could have returned to their hotels and eaten separately.
For it to be "reasonably necessary" in my view then they would have needed to return to work after dinner - i.e. was a break from work vs. something that was tagged on at the end of the work day to say thank you to the troops.
One user is positively orgasmic over Starmer, he's wetting his pants right now
On the other hand your posts look a lot like those pathetic Tories defending Boris being "ambushed by cake". How the roles have reversed.
The issue is Starmer having no political judgement, not waiting until the penalties were handed out to call for a resignation and, IMO, getting involved with it in the first instance. Again and again Starmer has not said what he would do differently to the Tories so he's had to go on fluff like this and now it's backfired.
Tbh, I think Starmer will brazen it out if he gets a FPN and the Tories will soft pedal because keeping him in place with that benefits them as it neutralises the biggest story of the day for them.
Sunday Times claims Boris Johnson personally "despises" his opposite number. An ally says: "He genuinely does not like Keir. He sees this man as part of a privileged, metropolitan, narrow-minded elite uncomfortable with the raw instincts of the vast majority of British people."
As opposed to the privileged guy entirely confident in the raw instincts of Boris Johnson which he projects onto the ‘vast majority of British people’?
One explanation proffered up for the Locals results was that the public want the government to focus on the things they care about. Which means they must not have been doing that up to now. Which means that Boris has admitted with that explanation he did not know the instincts of the vast majority of the British People, or he did but was not following those instincts. Possibly because he was uncomfortable with them.
One user is positively orgasmic over Starmer, he's wetting his pants right now
I know you are very focused on "bullying" as an issue.
You really should look at the beam in your own eye first.
That kind of demeaning language denigrates and undermines an individual (we all know who it is) and is a classic example of the the type of behaviour that would weigh heavily in "creating a hostile environment" in a legal situation
Well done Horse!
You flagged a post that was mildly critical of your behaviour.
One user is positively orgasmic over Starmer, he's wetting his pants right now
On the other hand your posts look a lot like those pathetic Tories defending Boris being "ambushed by cake". How the roles have reversed.
The issue is Starmer having no political judgement, not waiting until the penalties were handed out to call for a resignation and, IMO, getting involved with it in the first instance. Again and again Starmer has not said what he would do differently to the Tories so he's had to go on fluff like this and now it's backfired.
Tbh, I think Starmer will brazen it out if he gets a FPN and the Tories will soft pedal because keeping him in place with that benefits them as it neutralises the biggest story of the day for them.
I'd have to abstain from voting or vote Lib Dem if Starmer stays after being fined.
I already said, if Starmer gets fined he must go. I trust the Police to do the right thing, I do not trust the Tories here to be objective. I am sure the feeling very much mutual.
. A Starmer FPN and he goes. Replace with Andy Burnham
Under NO circumstances:
He failed massively to win last time. Why? Because he is no bloody good.
He's not even an MP. Duh.
He will put off all the new Labour voters down sarf. And we still need them.
He has a penis.
So in the words of Maggie, 'No. No. No.'
What the fuck difference does it make that "he has a penis"? Are you high?
Says a man. And a tory man at that.
It makes 'the fuck difference' because Labour MUST choose a woman as next leader.
End of.
And I'm a Labour supporter. You're not. So piss off.
xx
Given that your party can't define what a woman is it's all a bit academic isn't it?
Non sequitur.
We need our next leader to be a woman. Whether that's someone who is a trans woman is another issue but I doubt the red wall thickos like Fucker Faroq would cope with it.
Next Labour leader must be a woman. End of.
Must be hard to keep track of your lines to take today, Vlad.
Yeah right Phillip Thompson.
See? Two can play the game.
The next Labour leader must and will be a woman. Sorry that this is causing such confusion for the right wing gammons.
Have a nice day folks.
Off out to walk around Hook Heath. I guess I could meet up with tlg86 some time and then that really will make you 'you're a troll' tories look even more stupid and dumbass than you already are (if that's poss.)
@PBModerator has said it's against the rules to doxx people.
Hoist with your own petard situation I'd have thought if you want to call vlad
Only if he genuinely is Vlad though.
One is a joke, a turn of phrase, the other is doxxing with full name.
Oh how we laughed and why should they be a "he"
Malcolm, do you think Alba still have a future after these elections? Not a single councillor in the whole of Scotland and some truly embarrassing figures in individual constituencies. It seems as if the SNP have drilled loyalty into their membership too well for a break off to thrive.
Looks a forlorn hope David. Looks like it will need to be Labour that cleanse the SNP ( the sheeple seem to forgive every useless policy , disaster , etc). If only they had a backbone and some independent thinking rather than just London clones. At some point someone with brains will get them out of just being patsies taking orders. They need to swing at least some way to independence , full fiscal autonomy or they will get nowhere. SNP are useless till Sturgeon and her clique of crooks, rogues and self ider's are history. She must fall soon , no-one can keep all that manure hidden forever. Meanwhile Scotland burns, gets ever more like a basket case that deserves to be just a colony.
Surely if you are a nationalist and dislike Sturgeon you already have a successful party to vote for - the Scottish Greens. I'm not a nat but recognise the clear electoral mandate last year for a 2nd referendum. Dodgy Alex and his cult weren't needed to deliver that, so why care that they have largely died out?
The Scottish Greens are ridiculously Woke, especially on things like Trans - they are even Wokier than the SNP (which is going some)
I don't think @malcolmg is particularly Woke, so I see his dilemma. Alba promised to be the non-Woke Nats, but they've now evanesced
We all take your perspective on Woke u Der advisement.
In the real world there are two established nationalist parties and there wasn't room for a third.
But both indy parties are social democratic leftwing parties
What about economic and cultural conservatives who also like indy? What should they do? Grin and bear it forever?
It is a problem for the cause
What is conservative about breaking up the union? There are no right wing nat parties because it's not a right wing position.
Then again, with right wing conservatives now arguing for the merits of trade barriers and costly red tape anything is possible...
What a cringingly stupid remark
I think he's got a point. A conservative position is to persist and preserve things that are not obviously broken. The state of the union is an interesting one because there are arguments both ways but living in Scotland I can tell you that, despite your view of the house colours in Wick, it's not all dreary and horrible. It works, to some extent. So a natural conservative position is, don't overthrow this, it's working. So what is the conservative argument for independence? I can come up with a couple of weakish ones, but they're not altogether convincing.
Well I suppose if you were very conservative you could make the case that the Union as a whole had always been a mistake, and so opposing the Act of Union as a radical innovation.
But it's a mistake to identify the right-wing as always being small 'c' conservatives. The Right can be very radical when they want to. And in general the Right tend to make the argument of drawing a tighter circle of empathy and leaving more people on the outside, so it goes quite naturally with nationalism. I find it very easy to see the right-wing case for Scottish independence.
It's the left-wing argument for Scottish independence that I find hard to understand. What part of "Workers of the World Unite" involves creating a new border on the island of Britain?
If Scots and English can't cooperate then what chance for cooperating across greater cultural differences?
Quite. Nationalism is generally a rightwing thing (see Ireland, where some of the separatists flirted with Fascism). Scotland is actually quite unusual in that its Nationalism is now prismed through leftwing parties.
Scot Nattery wasn't always like this. The SNP were once called "the Tartan Tories" for a reason
It was a clever strategic move by the SNP to shift to the left as part of a strategy to create as much difference with England as possible. They will receive votes from many Scottish Nationalists despite the left-wing politics, and can then use the left-wing politics to attract voters who would otherwise be suspicious of nationalism.
As soon as the referendum is won the left-wing politics will be dropped. It will then be "in the national interest".
On the final point - the voters can then vote for whomsoever they want after independence. And get the politics they want. Which is the whole point.
It will be the pressure of events that will drive politics to the right. The desperate need to balance the budget. The imperative to compete economically with England. Politicians turning to Nationalistic rhetoric to compensate for disappointed dreams.
That's pretty much exactly what happened in Ireland, which goes some way to explain the shambles there with the HSE, and politics dominated for a century by two centre-right parties, with only a small Labour Party.
Scottish independence would be a massive, epochal defeat for left-wing politics on the island of Britain.
You mean that it's not defeated already? Come off it, it's already dead, except in Scotland and Wales, on the electoral evidence. Even Labour in Scotland is markedly to the right of the SNP, never mind the SGs.
Edit: OK, slight exaggeration in the heat of the moment. But the basic point stands. Labour is, as always, asking the Scots to suck it up because they are so incompetent, or people won't vote for them, in the UK as a whole.
It's a fundamental tenet of left-wing politics that the future can be better than the past. Left-wing politics is struggling in most places at the moment, but of course I believe that the arguments can be made again, better in the future, with better leaders, and past defeats reversed.
If I didn't believe that I'd have to give up and find refuge in some petty nationalism instead...
It's entirely possible to be in favour of leftwing or centrist politics as well as independence for one's polity. That is how the Labour Party began - twins with the SNP (strictly, NPS).
Comments
I am surprised, no shocked, that BigG. is not demanding an investigation.
I don't think PLP really fancies a lengthy leadership contest which will involve considerable navel gazing and will distract the party for months. Then there's fact it might take a while for an inexperienced new leader to adapt to the role. So, I suspect the PLP will rally round a candidate who has a considerable experience in front bench roles and who'd be able to take Boris on from the off. With Burnham not being an MP, then only Yvette really fits that profile.
The Socialist Campaign Group would try and fail to get a candidate on the ballot. The PLP surely aren't going to be stupid enough to lend nominations to 'broaden the debate' this time.
Yvette Cooper as next PM looks a value bet, for me.
EDIT: rethinking slightly, by the end of the conference, when is that, October?
There is also no way the SNP would tolerate any deals with the Tories and it would not even be a consideration unless the Conservatives were largest party which on current polling they clearly are not
Ah, so that's why he got the Mail on this
It's not Brexit for Nandy, it's that she has no ideas and isn't a good public speaker. I actually think she'd be worse than Starmer.
But it's a mistake to identify the right-wing as always being small 'c' conservatives. The Right can be very radical when they want to. And in general the Right tend to make the argument of drawing a tighter circle of empathy and leaving more people on the outside, so it goes quite naturally with nationalism. I find it very easy to see the right-wing case for Scottish independence.
It's the left-wing argument for Scottish independence that I find hard to understand. What part of "Workers of the World Unite" involves creating a new border on the island of Britain?
If Scots and English can't cooperate then what chance for cooperating across greater cultural differences?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36xSrKhCojw
(I think Boris/Rishi would have won if they had challenged their birthday cake one as well, although perhaps not on a couple of the other no 10 parties.)
And then towards the 1850's, making JRM even happier.
Scot Nattery wasn't always like this. The SNP were once called "the Tartan Tories" for a reason
https://www.scotsman.com/arts-and-culture/books/book-review-the-year-the-world-went-mad-by-mark-woolhouse-3604686
If the SNP got into bed with the Tories however, that would lead to a Labour landslide in Scotland as well as England. I say that as a Tory. I would rather do a deal with Labour, which would never happen, than even consider a deal with the SNP
Even if the entire Conference and its Nan decides "2023 is the year" she can call for a referendum and legislate for this and that and then Boris says No, and.... er..... then what?
She won't go for UDI or a wildcat vote
She is then reliant on Starmer (if he survives currygate) winning but winning so narrowly he needs to offer the SNP indyref2 in return for their support (but I don't believe Starmer would do that, either)
The Nat cause is in a fix. I am not sure how the fix is fixed
In which case what happens then .
And here we have a Tweet to prove it.
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1388240092398071809
10:13 PM.
It is fair to say the mail are front and centre of this investigative journalism but also the rest of the media, as they do, have logged onto the story and it looks like it will continue over the next couple of months
There is an amazing irony in all of this that Starmer should be caught out by his demands for Boris to resign in exactly these circumstances, ie being investigated by the police and before their verdict
My prediction is that the SNP will move seriously on this. That's not the same as saying it will be granted by London. That's why it's "over to you, Nicola" and not "over to you, Boris" yet.
The Tartan Tory bit however had much more to do with sectarianism, nativist religious sectarianism, which it shared with the Unionist Party (=Scons now) in opposition to the Labour/RC/Irish side of the division. It's the Tory party in Scotland which retained that sectarianism, not always very well hidden, much longer than the SNP which purged it long ago. Which at least shows that a centre right wing party with support for independence can and did, and of course now does with Alba, exist.
Slab still poisonously resent the SNP dumping the sectarian stuff and having a rapprochement with the RC establishment, working class voters, etc. which they think they own as of right.
As soon as the referendum is won the left-wing politics will be dropped. It will then be "in the national interest".
It might even make me join twitter.
"Yes dear, I'm working hard. I'm just letting people know my opinion on Strictly Coming Dancing..."
Terrible political radar all round.
So I see the current difference in voting patterns as a result of contingent events, and not a fundamental aspect of the nature of people in England or Scotland, and so I hope that left-wing politics will advance in England - and there are some promising signs of the Green Party making progress, for example.
Anyway that can easily be proven by the record of when he returned to his hotel, which by the way was serving food upto 9.00pm and room service after. Furthermore eating establishments were open despite Starmer saying there were not
You have no way to prove he didn't send it, or if one of his team there sent it. That is proof that they were working after/during the meal.
2. Tweeting can be work. Many organisations from charities to companies to public sector organisations literally pay people tweet.
I think this really confirms that they were working.
Along with the value of the food and beer, seems like a bog-standard working dinner to me.
That's pretty much exactly what happened in Ireland, which goes some way to explain the shambles there with the HSE, and politics dominated for a century by two centre-right parties, with only a small Labour Party.
Scottish independence would be a massive, epochal defeat for left-wing politics on the island of Britain.
It’s simply not possible to allow this story to continue for weeks without some sort of fightback.
If nothing leaks as a defence then I’d see that as bad news for Starmer .
We don't know what evidence Durham Police are looking at, nor how they are going to call it. Going on what's known in the public domain it doesn't look particularly obvious to me, but I take a fairly relaxed view on all of these events/parties.
There is a potential hypocrisy argument to make against Starmer but (a) hypocrisy isn't illegal; (b) while Johnson refuses to resign over his actual FPN(s) it doesn't really land on Starmer. It would be different if Starmer is served with an FPN and also refuses to resign. I don't think that will happen because I think it more likely he won't get an FPN and he will resign anyway if he does.
She then has to hope this riles Scots so much they give her an enormous majority at the next Holyrood elex (2025?) which she can then use as moral leverage to secure indyref2 from a weak London government. And by the late 2020s the “generation” argument will begin to wear thin
Trouble for her is that I don’t see this movement in Scottish public opinion. Which seems as bitterly and closely divided as ever. There has NOT been a decisive move to YES. Indeed the polls nudge towards NO of late
So it’s an impasse.
However no one got rich underestimating Sturgeon, she’s a formidable operator and a cunning politician, she may have some secret and brilliant plan up her manly sleeve
Edit: OK, slight exaggeration in the heat of the moment. But the basic point stands. Labour is, as always, asking the Scots to suck it up because they are so incompetent, or people won't vote for them, in the UK as a whole.
Not saying you are wrong, just that you haven't proved it
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/05/07/swedens-figures-must-radically-change-terms-covid-inquiry/
Ncuti Gatwa will take over from Jodie Whittaker as the star of Doctor Who, the BBC has announced.
The 29-year-old actor will become the 14th Time Lord on the popular science fiction show, and the first non-white Doctor.
This is vastly different from all the events in no 10.
Bring your own booze is clearly a social event .
You really should look at the beam in your own eye first.
That kind of demeaning language denigrates and undermines an individual (we all know who it is) and is a classic example of the the type of behaviour that would weigh heavily in "creating a hostile environment" in a legal situation
Perhaps Starmer could offer his resignation in a public vote of no confidence, open to not just Labour members. High risk, but he'd likely win.
It's hilarious seeing *some* of the Labour supporters who gave Boris absolutely no quarter in partygate now looking for any little thing that might absolve their leader. It suggests they're not actually bothered about the sin, more the identity of the sinner...
The source who was present is willing to help police with their inquiries. Crucially, the source said Starmer did not go back to work after eating his curry: “It has been claimed that Starmer worked during the curry and then after the curry. None of those two things happened. He did not go back to work to the best of my knowledge.”
They also accused some attendees, including Foy and her staff, of not working at all and only being there to socialise.
“They were just there drinking,” said the source. “This made some people feel uncomfortable because they knew there was a risk we could be accused of breaking the rules.
“Mary Foy and her staff were not working and I have not got a problem telling that to the police. They were just getting pissed. They were just there for a jolly. It’s not something that I am prepared to defend. They just thought it was pretty cool to hang out with the leader and deputy leader of the Labour Party. I wouldn’t say they were hammered but they were definitely a little bit tipsy by the end.”
The source added: “In my view, it was an event that is akin to when the prime minister and Rishi Sunak were ambushed by a birthday cake.”
https://twitter.com/expatua/status/1523266828797026305
(Actually, kudos to them for going.)
...
If I didn't believe that I'd have to give up and find refuge in some petty nationalism instead...
The EU have put forward some solutions , whether they go far enough isn’t the point . He’s making out as if they’ve offered nothing at all.
We know that there were other sources of food available, so the teams could have returned to their hotels and eaten separately.
For it to be "reasonably necessary" in my view then they would have needed to return to work after dinner - i.e. was a break from work vs. something that was tagged on at the end of the work day to say thank you to the troops.
The issue is Starmer having no political judgement, not waiting until the penalties were handed out to call for a resignation and, IMO, getting involved with it in the first instance. Again and again Starmer has not said what he would do differently to the Tories so he's had to go on fluff like this and now it's backfired.
Tbh, I think Starmer will brazen it out if he gets a FPN and the Tories will soft pedal because keeping him in place with that benefits them as it neutralises the biggest story of the day for them.
You flagged a post that was mildly critical of your behaviour.
I already said, if Starmer gets fined he must go. I trust the Police to do the right thing, I do not trust the Tories here to be objective. I am sure the feeling very much mutual.
Hope you are keeping well Max