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Comments
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Is there any empirical evidence that countries with PR are less economically successful?Richard_Nabavi said:
Seriously? When and how?Sean_F said:Both main parties are responsible for misgovernment.
Eternal coalitions, the LibDems possibly permanently in power, governments stitched up in smoke-free rooms by buying off minor parties with bribes and concessions to single-issue vested interests, voters not having a clue what they are voting for.Sean_F said:If the Conservatives are worried about a split vote returning a Labour government, then they should offer PR. If they won't, then they have no right to complain.
PR is a fudge, the avoidance of choice. But choice has to be made.
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Can you, firmly on the right as you are, provide a few examples of how the present government has 'misgoverned'?Sean_F said:
Both main parties are responsible for misgovernment.Richard_Nabavi said:
... by working to put back into power the party that was responsible for the misgovernment.Sean_F said:The agenda has moved on. Four years ago, UKIP were indeed a single-issue party. Now, as with the SNP, their supporters are rebelling against misgovernment at Westminster.
If the Conservatives are worried about a split vote returning a Labour government, then they should offer PR. If they won't, then they have no right to complain.0 -
How do you know he was SNP? Did you ask to see his card? He's far more likely to be a disaffected Labour voter there. Glaswegian street humour can be very sarcastic. Vide the infamous Imperial Death March accompaniment a few moments earlier.MonikerDiCanio said:
The SNP skinhead's offensive mimicking of a black American slave was self-defeating since the cliche is Yes suh massah. Yes suh massah Rupert.Scott_P said:The Yes Bully Boy charm offensive (and I do mean offensive)
@christopherhope: ICYMI here's my video of Labour MPs being called slaves and the N-word in Glasgow by Donald Dewar's statue yesterday: http://t.co/6veYo1n2Ij
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ICM indyref poll out at 12.30 today ?0
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Dave down to his last few arse licking mates from Sainsburys and M&S now.
You'll probably lose some of your financial services industry whether you vote no or yes, I reckon.
If you vote yes you'll lose it all.0 -
My money's on No voters are bluffing ;-)TGOHF said:
Expect dissection of the figures - "if you take out English born voters..... ", "if you take out foreigners....", "if you take out old people who wont be alive in 20 years......"Alanbrooke said:
It's quite possible that Salmond will claim a majority irrespective of a No having more votes.Slackbladder said:
The SNP/Cybernats are quickly diverging from reality...TheScreamingEagles said:
Per that video, How has David Cameron's visit to Scotland made things worse?malcolmg said:
David Cameron in his bunker
www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsRzO18nM8A
Before Yes were ahead, afterwards No are ahead.0 -
Source/Link please?TGOHF said:ICM indyref poll out at 12.30 today ?
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Oh, it's being extensively discussed up here. A look at twitter shows people are pretty clued up o the issues (purdah, breach of the Edinburgh Agreement in spirit if not letter of law, devomax not the same as devo-a-wee-bit-more, getting a real commitment beyond the end of a Westminster administration, etc., not ot menton memories of 1979). Doesn't mean it's being reported everywhere, that's the trouble.FrankBooth said:
I can't believe it. I agree with Dan Hodges. I would stop short of saying it will destroy Labour though. Dan is allowing his own personal fantasies free rein there.TheScreamingEagles said:Guess who wrote this?
Ed Miliband and Gordon Brown haven't saved the Union. But they may have killed the Labour Party
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100286169/ed-miliband-and-gordon-brown-havent-saved-the-union-but-they-may-have-killed-the-labour-party/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
I can't understand why the Yes campaign isn't tearing all this devomax stuff apart. It's going to cause all kind of problems. It's daft to think it will all be sorted quickly because Gordon Brown says so.
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Westminster panicked. And it panicked because it is losing. No party in England commands majority support among English voters. And what we need is a constitutional settlement that reflects that. Scotland is currently reflecting a UK-wide disenchantment with Westminster machine politics. Whatever happens next Thursday this has to be tackled. And if that means right wing governments for England, so be it if it is the will of the people. My suspicion is that actually things are a lot more nuanced than many assume. England is a mixed bag.FrankBooth said:
I can't believe it. I agree with Dan Hodges. I would stop short of saying it will destroy Labour though. Dan is allowing his own personal fantasies free rein there.TheScreamingEagles said:Guess who wrote this?
Ed Miliband and Gordon Brown haven't saved the Union. But they may have killed the Labour Party
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100286169/ed-miliband-and-gordon-brown-havent-saved-the-union-but-they-may-have-killed-the-labour-party/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
I can't understand why the Yes campaign isn't tearing all this devomax stuff apart. It's going to cause all kind of problems. It's daft to think it will all be sorted quickly because Gordon Brown says so.
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Yorkshire! Yorkshire! Yorkshire!0
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That and the marginal cost of producing that oil. What we see in the North sea is all the low hanging fruit has gone. There is more fruit higher up and further along the branches but it is more difficult and expensive to get.Alanbrooke said:
The North Sea oil story isn't about the volume of production it's about the world price of oil, since the second peak oil is about price not volume.rottenborough said:
Not necessarily IMHO. The passion for 'Yes' may well fade quite quickly. In another 10 years it will be clearer what the real story about North Sea oil is.numbertwelve said:
My prediction is in the event of a no, unless there's constitutional change on an extreme scale we'd be looking at another vote within 30 years.welshowl said:Scotland's population was according to the 2011 census 5.295m. Any odds on a drop either absolute or relative to rUk in 2021?
This is all getting so shrill up there, and downright nasty I fear, and it's going to probably be pretty close meaning another round in 10 years? So I'm beginning to wonder that even if there's a No will some folk quietly sell up and leave thereby avoiding a future tartan People's Republic (ok I exaggerate a bit)?
In June Brent crude was at $115 a barrel, yesterday it hit $ 98.
The result is that it is barely profitable to get it which means there is not a gain to tax. We may end up effectively subsidising the latter stage of north sea oil production with generous tax breaks, allowing costs to be set off against upstream operations and allowing full set off of the decommissioning costs. In short although it will remain an important source of employment (which will produce some indirect taxes) and ancillary investment activity it will cease to be a significant earner for either the Scottish or the UK Treasuries.
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Reality.Slackbladder said:If It's a NO vote, whats stopping Salmond demanding a re-run in 6 months say?
Most people are pissed off with 3 years of pure tedium
Westminster won't pass the legislation0 -
Quite so. The much touted "blow to Salmond" recent reduction in tax take from the North Sea was, as I understand it, a direct response to Mr Osborne's sudden tax hike of a year or so back - the companies reduced production and/or directed effort to investment etc., ergo less tax take.Richard_Tyndall said:
As I have already said it would be difficult for the Scots to present a regime that was harsher and more ill considered than that perpetuated by successive UK governments over the last 2 decades.TheWatcher said:
BP was originally referred to in the Sillar's posts below.Richard_Tyndall said:
The BP example is quite the most ridiculous of companies threatening to 'pull out' in the event of a Yes. BP have already pulled much of their operations out of the UK entirely. Their Head Office is already in London not Aberdeen and the only operations they have in Scotland are those necessary for running their North Sea assets.TheWatcher said:
As for BP, make life too difficult and they'll simply shut down operations and spend their time and money on exploration and production elsewhere. If there's no profit in it why bother.Alanbrooke said:
ROFLScott_P said:@AlanRoden: Jim Sillars: "When we get a Yes majority, we will use that power for a day of reckoning with BP and the banks." #indyref
Words fail me
which banks ? There won't be any.
Is Sillars going to take malcolm out in a dinghy, to man the platforms himself?
Whether or not they pull out of North Sea operations will have nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not Scotland in independent. It will depend entirely on he balance of costs to profits (including tax regime) and the Oil price.
As I have mentioned before, the UK government have grossly mismanaged the tax regime for UK oil exploration and have caused a big drop in exploration and development since 2010. However incompetent the Scottish government were it would actually be difficult for them to run the system in a more damaging manner than the current and previous UK governments.
'Whether or not they pull out of North Sea operations will have nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not Scotland in independent.'
It's never been suggested that they would. The posts relate to how they might theoretically respond to Big Jim's 'day of reckoning' were it to be too harsh to continue profitable operations.
The fact that it is better to operate in Norway than the UK at the moment surely says something about how bad the UK is managing the North Sea.
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Dan Sabbagh @dansabbagh · 10 minsTheScreamingEagles said:
Source/Link please?TGOHF said:ICM indyref poll out at 12.30 today ?
Guardian/ICM poll on Scottish independence will be published at 12.30pm. It's a telephone poll.
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This is just so perfectly put blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100286169/ed-miliband-and-gordon-brown-havent-saved-the-union-but-they-may-have-killed-the-labour-party/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
At which point the penny finally is going to drop for Miliband. He will be faced with a choice. He will have to try and cobble together some specious argument for why English voters are to be denied the same constitutional rights as their Scottish neighbours – an argument the Conservative Party and Ukip will gleefully tear to shreds – or he will have to endorse a constitutional settlement that will effective neuter him and his party politically for a generation.
And why? How has this catastrophic state of affairs been allowed to come about? Because last Sunday 13 people told one pollster in one opinion poll they would be voting “Yes” in next week’s referendum, rather than voting “No”.0 -
That must be when the main chains pull out, and Poundland Food move in.malcolmg said:Ha Ha Ha , ASDA and Morrison's now saying prices could fall in an independent Scotland.
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So the Hodges paradox is that defenders of the union, having saved the union, will immediately set out to destroy the union by attacking Scotland and Wales.taffys said:I can't believe it. I agree with Dan Hodges.
It is difficult to disagree with what Hodges says. England will never acccept more powers for Scotland without a freezout of Scottish MPs from English measures.
And when the arguing starts, Wales will be drawn into the argument too, because Welsh MPs can vote on English education and health, not content with destroying both in their own country,
Blair may have won without Scotland, but I'm not sure even he could win without Scotland AND Wales.0 -
Jim Waterson @jimwaterson 9mTheScreamingEagles said:
Source/Link please?TGOHF said:ICM indyref poll out at 12.30 today ?
Next #indyref poll from ICM/Guardian out at 12.30pm this afternoon.
Edinburgh, City of Edinburgh
Jim WatersonVerified account
@jimwaterson
Deputy Editor at @BuzzfeedUK.0 -
ThanksSlackbladder said:
Dan Sabbagh @dansabbagh · 10 minsTheScreamingEagles said:
Source/Link please?TGOHF said:ICM indyref poll out at 12.30 today ?
Guardian/ICM poll on Scottish independence will be published at 12.30pm. It's a telephone poll.0 -
I think that twitter rumour was started by a daily mail journo.TheScreamingEagles said:
Source/Link please?TGOHF said:ICM indyref poll out at 12.30 today ?
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It's always someone else isn't it?Carnyx said:
How do you know he was SNP? Did you ask to see his card? He's far more likely to be a disaffected Labour voter there. Glaswegian street humour can be very sarcastic. Vide the infamous Imperial Death March accompaniment a few moments earlier.MonikerDiCanio said:
The SNP skinhead's offensive mimicking of a black American slave was self-defeating since the cliche is Yes suh massah. Yes suh massah Rupert.Scott_P said:The Yes Bully Boy charm offensive (and I do mean offensive)
@christopherhope: ICYMI here's my video of Labour MPs being called slaves and the N-word in Glasgow by Donald Dewar's statue yesterday: http://t.co/6veYo1n2Ij
I wonder if Nats are capable of taking responsibility for anything.
New party slogan - "It wasnae me!"
Answers all uncomfortable questions such as 'Who destroyed the Scottish banking sector', or 'Who wiped out tourism?'
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I agree. Clegg's whole pitch has been (misguidedly in my view) that the LDs have gone from being a party of protest to a party of government. To then decide not to run candidates everywhere would make them look cowardly and rather 2nd rate.AndyJS said:
I think they'll definitely contest all GB seats except maybe Bercow's. Prestige demands it, however unpretty the results.Lennon said:
Do you think that there is a chance that the Lib Dems just don't contest all constituencies (excl NI)?AndyJS said:UKIP have selected 25% more candidates than the LDs so far. Shows where the momentum is, as confirmed by almost every poll putting the former ahead of the latter.
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I don't think it will mean permanent tory rule, but it is clear that England (on a whole) is more on the 'right' spectrum than the UK. It might shift so that we get a labour akin to new labour, and a mix of tory/UKIP governments, but overall, it will shift right.SouthamObserver said:
Westminster panicked. And it panicked because it is losing. No party in England commands majority support among English voters. And what we need is a constitutional settlement that reflects that. Scotland is currently reflecting a UK-wide disenchantment with Westminster machine politics. Whatever happens next Thursday this has to be tackled. And if that means right wing governments for England, so be it if it is the will of the people. My suspicion is that actually things are a lot more nuanced than many assume. England is a mixed bag.FrankBooth said:
I can't believe it. I agree with Dan Hodges. I would stop short of saying it will destroy Labour though. Dan is allowing his own personal fantasies free rein there.TheScreamingEagles said:Guess who wrote this?
Ed Miliband and Gordon Brown haven't saved the Union. But they may have killed the Labour Party
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100286169/ed-miliband-and-gordon-brown-havent-saved-the-union-but-they-may-have-killed-the-labour-party/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
I can't understand why the Yes campaign isn't tearing all this devomax stuff apart. It's going to cause all kind of problems. It's daft to think it will all be sorted quickly because Gordon Brown says so.0 -
So the Hodges paradox is that defenders of the union, having saved the union, will immediately set out to destroy the union by attacking Scotland and Wales.
No. Hodges argues the union will survive. At the expense of the labour party.
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The Guardian have confirmed it.Pong said:
I think that twitter rumour was started by a daily mail journo.TheScreamingEagles said:
Source/Link please?TGOHF said:ICM indyref poll out at 12.30 today ?
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LOLAlanbrooke said:
My money's on No voters are bluffing ;-)TGOHF said:
Expect dissection of the figures - "if you take out English born voters..... ", "if you take out foreigners....", "if you take out old people who wont be alive in 20 years......"Alanbrooke said:
It's quite possible that Salmond will claim a majority irrespective of a No having more votes.Slackbladder said:
The SNP/Cybernats are quickly diverging from reality...TheScreamingEagles said:
Per that video, How has David Cameron's visit to Scotland made things worse?malcolmg said:
David Cameron in his bunker
www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsRzO18nM8A
Before Yes were ahead, afterwards No are ahead.0 -
Many thanks.TGOHF said:
Jim Waterson @jimwaterson 9mTheScreamingEagles said:
Source/Link please?TGOHF said:ICM indyref poll out at 12.30 today ?
Next #indyref poll from ICM/Guardian out at 12.30pm this afternoon.
Edinburgh, City of Edinburgh
Jim WatersonVerified account
@jimwaterson
Deputy Editor at @BuzzfeedUK.0 -
The Union is already fundamentally weakened. It was from the start of devolution.DecrepitJohnL said:
So the Hodges paradox is that defenders of the union, having saved the union, will immediately set out to destroy the union by attacking Scotland and Wales.taffys said:I can't believe it. I agree with Dan Hodges.
It is difficult to disagree with what Hodges says. England will never acccept more powers for Scotland without a freezout of Scottish MPs from English measures.
And when the arguing starts, Wales will be drawn into the argument too, because Welsh MPs can vote on English education and health, not content with destroying both in their own country,
Blair may have won without Scotland, but I'm not sure even he could win without Scotland AND Wales.
It either has to loosen up, or has to fly apart. There is no status quo now
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Yorkshire wining the county championship and a Guardian phone out in in the space of an hour, this is the best day ever.0
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I blame SeanT...FrankBooth said:The trouble is those 'dodgy' polls could well have set in motion a chain of events that will destroy the UK in the medium term. As has been said devomax is asking for a constitutional quagmire.
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Inter alia, a botched strategic defence review; failure to control immigration from outside the EU; further extension of the nannying laws that the previous government was so fond of; opting back into the EU arrest warrant; a fall in the number of illegal immigrants being deported.JohnO said:
Can you, firmly on the right as you are, provide a few examples of how the present government has 'misgoverned'?Sean_F said:
Both main parties are responsible for misgovernment.Richard_Nabavi said:
... by working to put back into power the party that was responsible for the misgovernment.Sean_F said:The agenda has moved on. Four years ago, UKIP were indeed a single-issue party. Now, as with the SNP, their supporters are rebelling against misgovernment at Westminster.
If the Conservatives are worried about a split vote returning a Labour government, then they should offer PR. If they won't, then they have no right to complain.
I'm not saying Labour would do any better (they'd probably do worse).
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I don't think it will mean permanent tory rule, but it is clear that England (on a whole) is more on the 'right' spectrum than the UK.
I don't see how a union can survive when you have one part that wants to turn itself into Venezuela and another that wants to turn itself into Switzerland.
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Betfair down under 5s again..TheScreamingEagles said:Yorkshire wining the county championship and a Guardian phone out in in the space of an hour, this is the best day ever.
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ICM poll at 12.300
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It depends on what one means by right wing. If you are thinking about the beliefs held by those leading right wing parties - largely privatisation, anti-state, pro big finance, I don't get the feeling there is much support for those things in England. They are more prepared to get tough on welfare and immigration though, which has some resonance, although I think peoples' views change sometimes when they see the reality isn't always matched by the media's claims.SouthamObserver said:
Westminster panicked. And it panicked because it is losing. No party in England commands majority support among English voters. And what we need is a constitutional settlement that reflects that. Scotland is currently reflecting a UK-wide disenchantment with Westminster machine politics. Whatever happens next Thursday this has to be tackled. And if that means right wing governments for England, so be it if it is the will of the people. My suspicion is that actually things are a lot more nuanced than many assume. England is a mixed bag.FrankBooth said:
I can't believe it. I agree with Dan Hodges. I would stop short of saying it will destroy Labour though. Dan is allowing his own personal fantasies free rein there.TheScreamingEagles said:Guess who wrote this?
Ed Miliband and Gordon Brown haven't saved the Union. But they may have killed the Labour Party
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100286169/ed-miliband-and-gordon-brown-havent-saved-the-union-but-they-may-have-killed-the-labour-party/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
I can't understand why the Yes campaign isn't tearing all this devomax stuff apart. It's going to cause all kind of problems. It's daft to think it will all be sorted quickly because Gordon Brown says so.
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Yes. Currently, an English Parliament (if elected by a similar system to the Scottish) would return a right-wing majority. But, there's no reason to assume it would always do so.SouthamObserver said:
Westminster panicked. And it panicked because it is losing. No party in England commands majority support among English voters. And what we need is a constitutional settlement that reflects that. Scotland is currently reflecting a UK-wide disenchantment with Westminster machine politics. Whatever happens next Thursday this has to be tackled. And if that means right wing governments for England, so be it if it is the will of the people. My suspicion is that actually things are a lot more nuanced than many assume. England is a mixed bag.FrankBooth said:
I can't believe it. I agree with Dan Hodges. I would stop short of saying it will destroy Labour though. Dan is allowing his own personal fantasies free rein there.TheScreamingEagles said:Guess who wrote this?
Ed Miliband and Gordon Brown haven't saved the Union. But they may have killed the Labour Party
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100286169/ed-miliband-and-gordon-brown-havent-saved-the-union-but-they-may-have-killed-the-labour-party/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
I can't understand why the Yes campaign isn't tearing all this devomax stuff apart. It's going to cause all kind of problems. It's daft to think it will all be sorted quickly because Gordon Brown says so.
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I'm going to predict that it will either have Yes comfortably or ahead, or the largest no mahoosively ahead.TGOHF said:
Betfair down under 5s again..TheScreamingEagles said:Yorkshire wining the county championship and a Guardian phone out in in the space of an hour, this is the best day ever.
None of this, the lead being wiped out by a MOE swing.
It will settle the matter once and for all0 -
Hodges' article is, of course, absolutely right. Labour set in train a sequence of events that has only two possible outcomes: Disintegration or a Federation. It seems from recent days that the people's overall preference is for a Federation. I agree.0
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Either not been leaked or samey if betfair not twitching much.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm going to predict that it will either have Yes comfortably or ahead, or the largest no mahoosively ahead.TGOHF said:
Betfair down under 5s again..TheScreamingEagles said:Yorkshire wining the county championship and a Guardian phone out in in the space of an hour, this is the best day ever.
None of this, the lead being wiped out by a MOE swing.
It will settle the matter once and for all
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and there's me naively thing the actual vote did that.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm going to predict that it will either have Yes comfortably or ahead, or the largest no mahoosively ahead.TGOHF said:
Betfair down under 5s again..TheScreamingEagles said:Yorkshire wining the county championship and a Guardian phone out in in the space of an hour, this is the best day ever.
None of this, the lead being wiped out by a MOE swing.
It will settle the matter once and for all0 -
Re ICM - Please note, Do not compare it to the last ICM indyref poll.
Those polls were conducted online, this a phone poll.0 -
Actually it does say more or less in so many words that we're in a trajectory towards a Labour government. A certainty no. A trajectory yes.Richard_Nabavi said:
That's not what his model says. What it says is:TCPoliticalBetting said:The value in Prof Fisher is that it indicates what a "usual" trend is likely to lead to. We are now in a trajectory towards a Lab Govt.
Approximate probabilities of key outcomes:
Con largest: 48%
… with a majority: 22%
Lab largest: 52%
… with a majority: 26%
Hung Parliament: 51%
… with Con largest: 25%
… with Lab largest: 26%
"... yet another week has gone by without the Tories improving. Our model expects the Tories to make up ground and Labour to lose it, because that’s what the historical tendencies suggest. Every week that doesn’t happen, the forecast moves slightly away from the Tories and towards Labour.
And that’s been the overall trend since October: the Tories have made no progress in the polls..."
http://electionsetc.com/2014/09/12/forecast-update-12-september-2014/0 -
For one crazy moment I thought it was a Guardian-branded mobile they were touting. You get locked in a walled garden with access to approved metrosexual websites only. And of course the spell-check doesn't work. Trying to view Guido or Breibart results in a bricked device.TheScreamingEagles said:a Guardian phone out in in the space of an hour, this is the best day ever.
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No Jim Sillars will do that.Alanbrooke said:
and there's me naively thing the actual vote did that.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm going to predict that it will either have Yes comfortably or ahead, or the largest no mahoosively ahead.TGOHF said:
Betfair down under 5s again..TheScreamingEagles said:Yorkshire wining the county championship and a Guardian phone out in in the space of an hour, this is the best day ever.
None of this, the lead being wiped out by a MOE swing.
It will settle the matter once and for all
There's going to be a reckoning.0 -
Hah, I miss one word out.Anorak said:
For one crazy moment I thought it was a Guardian-branded mobile they were touting. You get locked in a walled garden access to approved metrosexual websites only. And of course the spell-check doesn't work.TheScreamingEagles said:a Guardian phone out in in the space of an hour, this is the best day ever.
So long as it wasn't a Daily Mail phone.
And let's not even get started on a news of the world phone.0 -
As I'm not an SNP member, I couldn't literally answer your question - but you are making the mistake again (wilfully or not) of equating the Yes side with the SNP and that is a real misunderstanding given the way politics will now play out.TheWatcher said:
It's always someone else isn't it?Carnyx said:
How do you know he was SNP? Did you ask to see his card? He's far more likely to be a disaffected Labour voter there. Glaswegian street humour can be very sarcastic. Vide the infamous Imperial Death March accompaniment a few moments earlier.MonikerDiCanio said:
The SNP skinhead's offensive mimicking of a black American slave was self-defeating since the cliche is Yes suh massah. Yes suh massah Rupert.Scott_P said:The Yes Bully Boy charm offensive (and I do mean offensive)
@christopherhope: ICYMI here's my video of Labour MPs being called slaves and the N-word in Glasgow by Donald Dewar's statue yesterday: http://t.co/6veYo1n2Ij
I wonder if Nats are capable of taking responsibility for anything.
New party slogan - "It wasnae me!"
Answers all uncomfortable questions such as 'Who destroyed the Scottish banking sector', or 'Who wiped out tourism?'
As for your comment about responsbility, the SNP have run the country reasonably well for one and the best part of a second term, and rather better than SLAB and SLD in voters' demonstrable opinion. Some might say that that was not difficult, but Messrs McConnell and McLeish weren't that bad in my opinion compared to some other SLAB leaders, and had some good ideas which they pushed.
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Thank goodness the poll isn't on Yorkshire independence. No doubt a sudden burst of delirium would have Westminster proposing devomax for Yorkshire, giving them full fiscal autonomy etc. I wonder whether they would keep the Queen? Or would they try and find the rightful heir of Richard III?TheScreamingEagles said:Yorkshire wining the county championship and a Guardian phone out in in the space of an hour, this is the best day ever.
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Maybe others in the Labour party have cottoned on to this hence Diane Abbott last night on This Week bizarrely at the time I thought appeared to be warmer to independence than a No vote and tore into Niall Fergusson who was speaking up for the Union.taffys said:So the Hodges paradox is that defenders of the union, having saved the union, will immediately set out to destroy the union by attacking Scotland and Wales.
No. Hodges argues the union will survive. At the expense of the labour party.0 -
''It seems from recent days that the people's overall preference is for a Federation. I agree.''
Labour's worst mistake now would be to give extra powers for Scotland whilst pretending to England that nothing is changing.
I wouldn't put it past them.0 -
Forgive me, but is that why Salmond and supporters continue to equate 'No' with the Tories, and their Labour stooges?Carnyx said:
'equating the Yes side with the SNP'TheWatcher said:
It's always someone else isn't it?Carnyx said:
How do you know he was SNP? Did you ask to see his card? He's far more likely to be a disaffected Labour voter there. Glaswegian street humour can be very sarcastic. Vide the infamous Imperial Death March accompaniment a few moments earlier.MonikerDiCanio said:
The SNP skinhead's offensive mimicking of a black American slave was self-defeating since the cliche is Yes suh massah. Yes suh massah Rupert.Scott_P said:The Yes Bully Boy charm offensive (and I do mean offensive)
@christopherhope: ICYMI here's my video of Labour MPs being called slaves and the N-word in Glasgow by Donald Dewar's statue yesterday: http://t.co/6veYo1n2Ij
I wonder if Nats are capable of taking responsibility for anything.
New party slogan - "It wasnae me!"
Answers all uncomfortable questions such as 'Who destroyed the Scottish banking sector', or 'Who wiped out tourism?'
I must have misheard the audio at the debates.
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In any case neither side is going to believe the poll result if it's not what they want it to say, so should anybody really be getting that excited ?TheScreamingEagles said:
No Jim Sillars will do that.Alanbrooke said:
and there's me naively thing the actual vote did that.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm going to predict that it will either have Yes comfortably or ahead, or the largest no mahoosively ahead.TGOHF said:
Betfair down under 5s again..TheScreamingEagles said:Yorkshire wining the county championship and a Guardian phone out in in the space of an hour, this is the best day ever.
None of this, the lead being wiped out by a MOE swing.
It will settle the matter once and for all
There's going to be a reckoning.
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Yorkshire doesn't want Devo Max, we want control of the whole UK.FrankBooth said:
Thank goodness the poll isn't on Yorkshire independence. No doubt a sudden burst of delirium would have Westminster proposing devomax for Yorkshire, giving them full fiscal autonomy etc. I wonder whether they would keep the Queen? Or would they try and find the rightful heir of Richard III?TheScreamingEagles said:Yorkshire wining the county championship and a Guardian phone out in in the space of an hour, this is the best day ever.
The Directly Elected Dictator of Yorkshire would be Primus Inter Pares of all the governing leaders of the UK0 -
*spills tea laughing*Anorak said:
For one crazy moment I thought it was a Guardian-branded mobile they were touting. You get locked in a walled garden with access to approved metrosexual websites only. And of course the spell-check doesn't work. Trying to view Guido or Breibart results in a bricked device.TheScreamingEagles said:a Guardian phone out in in the space of an hour, this is the best day ever.
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David Wyllie @journodave · 4 mins
BT, EE, O2, TalkTalk and Vodafone in talks over issuing statement warning of rising prices if a Yes #indyref vote http://news.sky.com/story/1334701/telecoms-giants-in-talks-on-independence-vote …
All the mobile phone masts will be shut down in Jim Sillars paradise.....0 -
A couple of things occur to me - and no doubt many others - that as ONS consistently provides information that shows that the ratio between public sector jobs and private sector jobs is around 3% higher in Scotland alone than the whole of the UK (rUK figures not supplied in the sample I saw), following a Yes vote, those that relate to the the rest of the UK ( a substantial number) will be withdrawn from Scotland, leaving just those looking after Scottish interests. That will mean the loss of jobs for many people in Scotland, an increase in unemployment in a sector with many female employees. Does anyone have any projections that show the ratio of public versus private sector jobs should Scotland secede, that would include such a rise in unemployment - an additional burden on the State?
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If no wins, the comedy value is going to be great.Alanbrooke said:
In any case neither side is going to believe the poll result if it's not what they want it to say, so should anybody really be getting that excited ?TheScreamingEagles said:
No Jim Sillars will do that.Alanbrooke said:
and there's me naively thing the actual vote did that.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm going to predict that it will either have Yes comfortably or ahead, or the largest no mahoosively ahead.TGOHF said:
Betfair down under 5s again..TheScreamingEagles said:Yorkshire wining the county championship and a Guardian phone out in in the space of an hour, this is the best day ever.
None of this, the lead being wiped out by a MOE swing.
It will settle the matter once and for all
There's going to be a reckoning.0 -
Agreed, it was botched, but it's a bit of a stretch to say that UKIP has strategic geniuses who would have done better than Liam Fox, especially given the very difficult economic circumstances and the inherited mess on defenceSean_F said:Inter alia, a botched strategic defence review;
Work in progress, hardly 'misgovernment', and in any case we have LibDems in power (as would likely be the case under PR, incidentally)Sean_F said:failure to control immigration from outside the EU
More to be done, certainly, but they've rolled back some nannying laws and in any case one man's 'nannying law' is another man's sensible piece of legislation.Sean_F said:further extension of the nannying laws that the previous government was so fond of;
Possibly, but what is the alternative?Sean_F said:opting back into the EU arrest warrant;
Is this really a big deal, even if true?Sean_F said:a fall in the number of illegal immigrants being deported.
Thanks to UKIP, you may have an opportunity to find out in a few months time.Sean_F said:I'm not saying Labour would do any better (they'd probably do worse).
In any case: what government in the last 50 years hasn't got some things wrong or not made as much progress as it might have done on some issues? Governing is hard and the pressures contradictory. To accuse the coalition of misgovernment, you have to look at the big picture. And the big picture is that on the key issues facing the country - notably the economy, welfare, and education - they have governed extremely well. They've got the big things right.
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What would Ukip's economic policies be? The party is hard to keep up with. I sill get the feeling it is a party of Thatcherites supported by grumpy, largely socially conservative voters. It all depends what you mean by right wing.Sean_F said:
Yes. Currently, an English Parliament (if elected by a similar system to the Scottish) would return a right-wing majority. But, there's no reason to assume it would always do so.SouthamObserver said:
Westminster panicked. And it panicked because it is losing. No party in England commands majority support among English voters. And what we need is a constitutional settlement that reflects that. Scotland is currently reflecting a UK-wide disenchantment with Westminster machine politics. Whatever happens next Thursday this has to be tackled. And if that means right wing governments for England, so be it if it is the will of the people. My suspicion is that actually things are a lot more nuanced than many assume. England is a mixed bag.FrankBooth said:
I can't believe it. I agree with Dan Hodges. I would stop short of saying it will destroy Labour though. Dan is allowing his own personal fantasies free rein there.TheScreamingEagles said:Guess who wrote this?
Ed Miliband and Gordon Brown haven't saved the Union. But they may have killed the Labour Party
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100286169/ed-miliband-and-gordon-brown-havent-saved-the-union-but-they-may-have-killed-the-labour-party/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
I can't understand why the Yes campaign isn't tearing all this devomax stuff apart. It's going to cause all kind of problems. It's daft to think it will all be sorted quickly because Gordon Brown says so.0 -
OK, but compared to overall economic management - surely the big one - fundamental education and welfare reforms, aren't the areas you listed, though demonstrably important (naturally I wouldn't agree with your depiction of all of them but that's another issue), relatively secondary?Sean_F said:
Inter alia, a botched strategic defence review; failure to control immigration from outside the EU; further extension of the nannying laws that the previous government was so fond of; opting back into the EU arrest warrant; a fall in the number of illegal immigrants being deported.JohnO said:
Can you, firmly on the right as you are, provide a few examples of how the present government has 'misgoverned'?Sean_F said:
Both main parties are responsible for misgovernment.Richard_Nabavi said:
... by working to put back into power the party that was responsible for the misgovernment.Sean_F said:The agenda has moved on. Four years ago, UKIP were indeed a single-issue party. Now, as with the SNP, their supporters are rebelling against misgovernment at Westminster.
If the Conservatives are worried about a split vote returning a Labour government, then they should offer PR. If they won't, then they have no right to complain.
I'm not saying Labour would do any better (they'd probably do worse).
And not worth risking a Labour government which assuredly would do (far) worse across the board?
PS I promise there was no confering with Dr N!0 -
Given the lack of coverage in large parts of Scotland, would anyone know if all the masts had been shut downSlackbladder said:David Wyllie @journodave · 4 mins
BT, EE, O2, TalkTalk and Vodafone in talks over issuing statement warning of rising prices if a Yes #indyref vote http://news.sky.com/story/1334701/telecoms-giants-in-talks-on-independence-vote …
All the mobile phone masts will be shut down in Jim Sillars paradise.....0 -
That's one way of putting it....TheScreamingEagles said:
If no wins, the comedy value is going to be great.Alanbrooke said:
In any case neither side is going to believe the poll result if it's not what they want it to say, so should anybody really be getting that excited ?TheScreamingEagles said:
No Jim Sillars will do that.Alanbrooke said:
and there's me naively thing the actual vote did that.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm going to predict that it will either have Yes comfortably or ahead, or the largest no mahoosively ahead.TGOHF said:
Betfair down under 5s again..TheScreamingEagles said:Yorkshire wining the county championship and a Guardian phone out in in the space of an hour, this is the best day ever.
None of this, the lead being wiped out by a MOE swing.
It will settle the matter once and for all
There's going to be a reckoning.0 -
But will they make a feature film about it? A tartan version of hanging chads?TheScreamingEagles said:
If no wins, the comedy value is going to be great.Alanbrooke said:
In any case neither side is going to believe the poll result if it's not what they want it to say, so should anybody really be getting that excited ?TheScreamingEagles said:
No Jim Sillars will do that.Alanbrooke said:
and there's me naively thing the actual vote did that.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm going to predict that it will either have Yes comfortably or ahead, or the largest no mahoosively ahead.TGOHF said:
Betfair down under 5s again..TheScreamingEagles said:Yorkshire wining the county championship and a Guardian phone out in in the space of an hour, this is the best day ever.
None of this, the lead being wiped out by a MOE swing.
It will settle the matter once and for all
There's going to be a reckoning.0 -
Just think, you'll be able to point out to the Nats, the people of Scotland prefer to be ruled by Dave, Ed & Nick, rather than Salmond.Slackbladder said:
That's one way of putting it....TheScreamingEagles said:
If no wins, the comedy value is going to be great.Alanbrooke said:
In any case neither side is going to believe the poll result if it's not what they want it to say, so should anybody really be getting that excited ?TheScreamingEagles said:
No Jim Sillars will do that.Alanbrooke said:
and there's me naively thing the actual vote did that.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm going to predict that it will either have Yes comfortably or ahead, or the largest no mahoosively ahead.TGOHF said:
Betfair down under 5s again..TheScreamingEagles said:Yorkshire wining the county championship and a Guardian phone out in in the space of an hour, this is the best day ever.
None of this, the lead being wiped out by a MOE swing.
It will settle the matter once and for all
There's going to be a reckoning.0 -
@JohnO - You put it more succinctly than I did!0
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They'll be nationalised by Scot Mob. It will make it easier to monitor calls for any sign of dissent by disaffected 'No' voters.Slackbladder said:David Wyllie @journodave · 4 mins
BT, EE, O2, TalkTalk and Vodafone in talks over issuing statement warning of rising prices if a Yes #indyref vote http://news.sky.com/story/1334701/telecoms-giants-in-talks-on-independence-vote …
All the mobile phone masts will be shut down in Jim Sillars paradise.....0 -
Just remember that in Nat speak "rising prices" means "you will pay less".Slackbladder said:David Wyllie @journodave · 4 mins
BT, EE, O2, TalkTalk and Vodafone in talks over issuing statement warning of rising prices if a Yes
Orwell would be so proud of them...
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Replace "pay" with "buy", and they'd have a point.Beverley_C said:
Just remember that in Nat speak "rising prices" means "you will pay less".Slackbladder said:David Wyllie @journodave · 4 mins
BT, EE, O2, TalkTalk and Vodafone in talks over issuing statement warning of rising prices if a Yes
Orwell would be so proud of them...0 -
Possibly because Better Together (specifically) is in large part Labour backed with Tory money and supplies and the odd visit? Mind you, we do have UKIP and then the Orange Order coming up for variety, but they are not, so far as I know, officially accepted as part of BT, and even then I don't recall their visit being discussed much by the Yes side (except to warn folk to keep clear and leave them to them enjoy their visit).TheWatcher said:
Is that why Salmond and supporters continue to equate 'No' with the Tories, and their Labour stooges?Carnyx said:
'equating the Yes side with the SNP'TheWatcher said:
It's always someone else isn't it?Carnyx said:
How do you know he was SNP? Did you ask to see his card? He's far more likely to be a disaffected Labour voter there. Glaswegian street humour can be very sarcastic. Vide the infamous Imperial Death March accompaniment a few moments earlier.MonikerDiCanio said:
The SNP skinhead's offensive mimicking of a black American slave was self-defeating since the cliche is Yes suh massah. Yes suh massah Rupert.Scott_P said:The Yes Bully Boy charm offensive (and I do mean offensive)
@christopherhope: ICYMI here's my video of Labour MPs being called slaves and the N-word in Glasgow by Donald Dewar's statue yesterday: http://t.co/6veYo1n2Ij
I wonder if Nats are capable of taking responsibility for anything.
New party slogan - "It wasnae me!"
Answers all uncomfortable questions such as 'Who destroyed the Scottish banking sector', or 'Who wiped out tourism?'
There is the risk of believing one's own BT side's propaganda about everything being due to Mr Salmond, which could be counterproductive given that for some time now the Yes movement has become decentralised and almost organic in its development, and I'm not talking about Henderson's Salad Bar, in a way BT doesn't seem to be. For one thing, that makes it silly to speak of a monolithic organization. For another, I've come to feel of late that Labour is increasingly finding itself fighting a second front in the form of a metaphorical civil war with the lefties - including very many ex-Labour types - in the council schemes. This is something to watch whatever happens next week, and I think that what we saw yesterday has a great deal to do with that.
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When was the last ICM phone poll?TheScreamingEagles said:Re ICM - Please note, Do not compare it to the last ICM indyref poll.
Those polls were conducted online, this a phone poll.0 -
They haven't done a phone poll on the indyref before.RobD said:
When was the last ICM phone poll?TheScreamingEagles said:Re ICM - Please note, Do not compare it to the last ICM indyref poll.
Those polls were conducted online, this a phone poll.
0 -
So the result will be sensational for Yes, regardless!TheScreamingEagles said:
They haven't do a phone poll on the indyref before.RobD said:
When was the last ICM phone poll?TheScreamingEagles said:Re ICM - Please note, Do not compare it to the last ICM indyref poll.
Those polls were conducted online, this a phone poll.0 -
Yes down to 4.7 from 5 an hour ago on betfair0
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Paul Waugh @paulwaugh · 7 mins
Is marching to a polling station even legal? Has @ElectoralCommUK made a ruling? #indyref
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Probably, plus, ICM and the Guardian haven't leaked or sent out embargoed copies of the poll.SeanT said:
It was around 4.7 about two hours ago. Random noise - I think.TheScreamingEagles said:Yes down to 4.7 from 5 an hour ago on betfair
So only a handful of people know the exact figures0 -
Well a tenner of that is me (yes big spender I know!!)TheScreamingEagles said:Yes down to 4.7 from 5 an hour ago on betfair
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As we have recently seen with this kind of 'threat' - they normally come to pass.Slackbladder said:David Wyllie @journodave · 4 mins
BT, EE, O2, TalkTalk and Vodafone in talks over issuing statement warning of rising prices if a Yes #indyref vote http://news.sky.com/story/1334701/telecoms-giants-in-talks-on-independence-vote …0 -
If it isnt they could always skip to the polling station.Slackbladder said:Paul Waugh @paulwaugh · 7 mins
Is marching to a polling station even legal? Has @ElectoralCommUK made a ruling? #indyref0 -
The notice I have seen says free facepainting for children and adults too!Neil said:
If it isnt they could always skip to the polling station.Slackbladder said:Paul Waugh @paulwaugh · 7 mins
Is marching to a polling station even legal? Has @ElectoralCommUK made a ruling? #indyref0 -
Just looked through the data, young people and women have swung it towards no. That must be a response to the no blitz about future jobs and wheeling out big companies to talk doom and gloom about jobs has definitely taken its toll on yes. Young people looking at their own futures may be more worried now than before the blitz. To people with settled futures companies talking about leaving ught not mean a lot, but for young people and students companies like BAe, RBS, Lloyds or Standard Life leaving means fewer job opportunities.0
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Depending on where your constituency is, it might be more likely UKIP win it then the Tories do. Also, if we abandon UKIP, then we will face the same issue next time, and the next time, and perpetually be choosing the poor option over the very poor option. Now that might suit the Richard Nabavis of this world, but it's not a very compelling strategy if you're not an ultraloyalist. If we get a UKIP break through this time, then in five years time they could very well get a few dozen seats, including in a bunch of Labour areas. That might mean a bigger right-wing majority in parliament. We must plan for the longer term.JohnO said:
OK, but compared to overall economic management - surely the big one - fundamental education and welfare reforms, aren't the areas you listed, though demonstrably important (naturally I wouldn't agree with your depiction of all of them but that's another issue), relatively secondary?Sean_F said:
Inter alia, a botched strategic defence review; failure to control immigration from outside the EU; further extension of the nannying laws that the previous government was so fond of; opting back into the EU arrest warrant; a fall in the number of illegal immigrants being deported.JohnO said:
Can you, firmly on the right as you are, provide a few examples of how the present government has 'misgoverned'?Sean_F said:
Both main parties are responsible for misgovernment.Richard_Nabavi said:
... by working to put back into power the party that was responsible for the misgovernment.Sean_F said:The agenda has moved on. Four years ago, UKIP were indeed a single-issue party. Now, as with the SNP, their supporters are rebelling against misgovernment at Westminster.
If the Conservatives are worried about a split vote returning a Labour government, then they should offer PR. If they won't, then they have no right to complain.
I'm not saying Labour would do any better (they'd probably do worse).
And not worth risking a Labour government which assuredly would do (far) worse across the board?
PS I promise there was no confering with Dr N!0 -
0
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Phone polls affected by "shy Nos" factor (compared with less so/not at all for online poll), therefore expect good result for "Yes". I'll go for a 50% : 50% dead heat excl DKs.TheScreamingEagles said:Re ICM - Please note, Do not compare it to the last ICM indyref poll.
Those polls were conducted online, this a phone poll.0 -
Post-hoc rationalisation of what is clearly a bonkers strategy.Socrates said:Depending on where your constituency is, it might be more likely UKIP win it then the Tories do. Also, if we abandon UKIP, then we will face the same issue next time, and the next time, and perpetually be choosing the poor option over the very poor option. Now that might suit the Richard Nabavis of this world, but it's not a very compelling strategy if you're not an ultraloyalist. If we get a UKIP break through this time, then in five years time they could very well get a few dozen seats, including in a bunch of Labour areas. That might mean a bigger right-wing majority in parliament. We must plan for the longer term.
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MD , as any sensible person knows , prices go up and down in the UK all the time, mainly up though. It is therefore no different if we are independent.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. G, so if they say prices could fall it's gospel, and if they say prices could rise they've been nobbled by the evil machinations of a perfidious Englishman?
Dave and his cronies assume we are thick and will be easily taken in by lies.0 -
@Vulturemedia: You must not campaign near polling stations in a way that could be seen by voters as aggressive or intimidating… @paulwaugh
@Vulturemedia: … for example, large groups of supporters carrying banners…" @paulwaugh0 -
@peter_from_putney
I hope not, PB has only just started returning to it's normal state of Scot bashing.0 -
I think that's right - my impression is that todays 16 -24 year olds are very sober and hard working. Their baby boomer parents extended blowout culminating in the 2007 - 2013 crash has made them so.MaxPB said:Just looked through the data, young people and women have swung it towards no. That must be a response to the no blitz about future jobs and wheeling out big companies to talk doom and gloom about jobs has definitely taken its toll on yes. Young people looking at their own futures may be more worried now than before the blitz. To people with settled futures companies talking about leaving ught not mean a lot, but for young people and students companies like BAe, RBS, Lloyds or Standard Life leaving means fewer job opportunities.
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Monica is a nutjobCarnyx said:
How do you know he was SNP? Did you ask to see his card? He's far more likely to be a disaffected Labour voter there. Glaswegian street humour can be very sarcastic. Vide the infamous Imperial Death March accompaniment a few moments earlier.MonikerDiCanio said:
The SNP skinhead's offensive mimicking of a black American slave was self-defeating since the cliche is Yes suh massah. Yes suh massah Rupert.Scott_P said:The Yes Bully Boy charm offensive (and I do mean offensive)
@christopherhope: ICYMI here's my video of Labour MPs being called slaves and the N-word in Glasgow by Donald Dewar's statue yesterday: http://t.co/6veYo1n2Ij0 -
I would rather have 10 more UKIP MPs and 10 fewer Labour ones.Richard_Nabavi said:
Post-hoc rationalisation of what is clearly a bonkers strategy.Socrates said:Depending on where your constituency is, it might be more likely UKIP win it then the Tories do. Also, if we abandon UKIP, then we will face the same issue next time, and the next time, and perpetually be choosing the poor option over the very poor option. Now that might suit the Richard Nabavis of this world, but it's not a very compelling strategy if you're not an ultraloyalist. If we get a UKIP break through this time, then in five years time they could very well get a few dozen seats, including in a bunch of Labour areas. That might mean a bigger right-wing majority in parliament. We must plan for the longer term.
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John Lettice @Vulturemedia · 5 mins
You must not campaign near polling stations in a way that could be seen by voters as aggressive or intimidating… @paulwaugh
RETWEETED BY Paul Waugh
John Lettice @Vulturemedia · 5 mins
… for example, large groups of supporters carrying banners…" @paulwaugh
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Hmm, not so sure about that. On-line polls have a big problem with self-select bias (although the reputable on-line pollsters make big efforts to correct for this). That may mean the online polls are more favourable to Yes than this phone poll will be, but we shall see in a few minutes.peter_from_putney said:Phone polls affected by "shy Nos" factor, therefore expect good result for "Yes". .
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I think young people are likely to be softer Yes's because they expect to live in a globalised world. Older people because they are still influenced by the War spirit of their parents. Men in early middle age are most enthusiastic Yes'ers and ironically will be worst affected by the post independence recession. Young people can emigrate, but they have families holding them here.MaxPB said:Just looked through the data, young people and women have swung it towards no. That must be a response to the no blitz about future jobs and wheeling out big companies to talk doom and gloom about jobs has definitely taken its toll on yes. Young people looking at their own futures may be more worried now than before the blitz. To people with settled futures companies talking about leaving ught not mean a lot, but for young people and students companies like BAe, RBS, Lloyds or Standard Life leaving means fewer job opportunities.
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@RichardNabavi
Non-EU immigration is a "work in progress"? Given that you're only 5% the way there towards net immigration in the tens of thousands, this is a ridiculous exaggeration. Even if EU immigration had fell alongside it, you still haven't made it half-way on non-EU immigration. And what are the plans to cut it further? Bring back the primary purpose rule? A higher income requirement for family visas? A higher salary level needed for work visas? As with EU negotiation, it's all airy fairy words and no commitment to what will practically be done, or even aimed at.0 -
So would I. Unfortunately that is not on offer.MaxPB said:I would rather have 10 more UKIP MPs and 10 fewer Labour ones.
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I expect there will be something in the manifesto on that.Socrates said:And what are the plans to cut it further?
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Martin Boon @martinboon · 2h
Don't forget to listen to objective but worried @icmresearch pollster on @BBCRadio4 More or Less 4.30pm today. #indyref0 -
YES now 4.60
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Cuckoo halfwitBeverley_C said:
Just remember that in Nat speak "rising prices" means "you will pay less".Slackbladder said:David Wyllie @journodave · 4 mins
BT, EE, O2, TalkTalk and Vodafone in talks over issuing statement warning of rising prices if a Yes
Orwell would be so proud of them...0
![[Deleted User]](https://wd.vanillicon.com/d2ea526b1b06ed109333f390c7ae956b_100.png)
