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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If Scotland rejects independence next week it will be becau

SystemSystem Posts: 12,213
edited September 2014 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If Scotland rejects independence next week it will be because of the failure to convince women

The big difference between the latest YouGov IndyRef poll and the one from last weekend showing a 2% YES lead has been a big switch amongst women voters.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    first.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    dr_spyn said:

    first.

    Unlike Eck
  • Needs to put Sturgeon up front for final week.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Said this yesterday...

    @benrileysmith: Salmond's contradictory RBS stance.
    A) Old news, not significant, has no consequences.
    B) Sensitive info, outrageous leak, inquiry needed.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    The head of the civil service has rejected claims by Alex Salmond that the Treasury deliberately leaked sensitive information to damage the campaign for Scottish independence.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29169114
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,336
    edited September 2014
    Plato said:

    Oh dammit - too early for me - yes Westies.

    I'm trying to think of a suitable EuroMutt - a Labradoodle doesn't cut the mustard. More of a Daschoodle perhaps?

    Carnyx said:

    Plato said:

    Will elderly couples no longer have white Scottie dogs as child substitutes? What about tartan dog coat and collar manufacturers!?

    Will Caesar have a RUK dog on their tins instead? No doubt Kippers will worry about a EuroMutt taking over.

    I Think We Should Be Told.

    I see that "Life and Style" has a feature on how to de-tartanise your wardrobe.

    Just one aspect of the backlash to come.

    No longer will the Celtic tail wag the English dog.
    You mean West Highland terriers, surely?



    Would an Alsatian do? [edited to remove double entendre]
  • BenMBenM Posts: 1,795
    FPT

    The Clacton turnout for the Tory open primary has been announced: it's 0.36%. [67,000 eligible voters, actually voting 240]

    Open primaries are an interesting idea, but maybe need a bit more thought.

    Another American-style import that hasn't travelled well.
  • BenM said:

    FPT

    The Clacton turnout for the Tory open primary has been announced: it's 0.36%. [67,000 eligible voters, actually voting 240]

    Open primaries are an interesting idea, but maybe need a bit more thought.

    Another American-style import that hasn't travelled well.
    What would you prefer? Labour stictch-ups win conjunction with the unions?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Scott_P said:

    Said this yesterday...

    @benrileysmith: Salmond's contradictory RBS stance.
    A) Old news, not significant, has no consequences.
    B) Sensitive info, outrageous leak, inquiry needed.

    Didn't see Eck so animated when HMRC in East Kilbride were leaking to the BBC left right and centre..
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    FPT: Nick Palmer - "The Clacton turnout for the Tory open primary has been announced: it's 0.36%. [67,000 eligible voters, actually voting 240]

    Open primaries are an interesting idea, but maybe need a bit more thought."

    No doubt the good people of Broxtowe will relish their ability to participate in an open primary to select the Labour candidate.

    No? You surprise me....
  • Women must be the hardest voters to pleaw, they don't like Eck, Ed or Dave - all parties pander to them, but still they resist be lured. It's an interesting dynamic.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @iainmartin1: Did I hear correctly on @BBCr4today that @YesScotland is organising march to polling stations in Glasgow on Thursday? Really?

    @hugorifkind: This. RT @VictoriaPeckham: Also Yes voters organising community marches to polling stations seems intimidating & counter democratic to me.

    Get your armbands on folks
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406

    BenM said:

    FPT

    The Clacton turnout for the Tory open primary has been announced: it's 0.36%. [67,000 eligible voters, actually voting 240]

    Open primaries are an interesting idea, but maybe need a bit more thought.

    Another American-style import that hasn't travelled well.
    What would you prefer? Labour stictch-ups win conjunction with the unions?
    All women shortlists won by Mrs Harman ^_~
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @GroomB: BoE: Scotland would have to hold £34bn currency reserves to match Denmark’s ratio or £155bn to match Hong Kong’s. http://t.co/xX9uQFHyYu

    Will they accept Tunnock's Tea Cakes as collateral?
  • Scott_P said:

    @iainmartin1: Did I hear correctly on @BBCr4today that @YesScotland is organising march to polling stations in Glasgow on Thursday? Really?

    @hugorifkind: This. RT @VictoriaPeckham: Also Yes voters organising community marches to polling stations seems intimidating & counter democratic to me.

    Get your armbands on folks

    Scary stuff.... things could get nasty.
  • BenMBenM Posts: 1,795

    BenM said:

    FPT

    The Clacton turnout for the Tory open primary has been announced: it's 0.36%. [67,000 eligible voters, actually voting 240]

    Open primaries are an interesting idea, but maybe need a bit more thought.

    Another American-style import that hasn't travelled well.
    What would you prefer? Labour stictch-ups win conjunction with the unions?
    I prefer Tory stitch ups with old school tie buddies getting soft Surrey seats.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @AlanRoden: Jim Sillars: "When we get a Yes majority, we will use that power for a day of reckoning with BP and the banks." #indyref

    Words fail me
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Pulpstar said:

    BenM said:

    FPT

    The Clacton turnout for the Tory open primary has been announced: it's 0.36%. [67,000 eligible voters, actually voting 240]

    Open primaries are an interesting idea, but maybe need a bit more thought.

    Another American-style import that hasn't travelled well.
    What would you prefer? Labour stictch-ups win conjunction with the unions?
    All women shortlists won by Mrs Harman ^_~
    I'll set Andrea on you.

  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,970
    Heard a radio program yesterday with Sturgeon Galloway Davidson and Hervie. I thought Davidson was quite good as was Sturgeon whereas Galloway was very disappointing and Hervie though OK was too convoluted to make a coherent case.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    If Scotland rejects independence next week it will be because there have been no answers given to questions affecting some of the most fundamental issues relating to an independent nation.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    If Scotland rejects independence next week it will be because there have been no answers given to questions affecting some of the most fundamental issues relating to an independent nation.

    Phil Collins in the Times is excellent on this today.

    Scotland is already a 'nation'; what it does not have is all the apparatus of a state, and those are the questions that Eck has no answers for.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    BenM said:

    BenM said:

    FPT

    The Clacton turnout for the Tory open primary has been announced: it's 0.36%. [67,000 eligible voters, actually voting 240]

    Open primaries are an interesting idea, but maybe need a bit more thought.

    Another American-style import that hasn't travelled well.
    What would you prefer? Labour stictch-ups win conjunction with the unions?
    I prefer Tory stitch ups with old school tie buddies getting soft Surrey seats.
    My MP is Sarah Wollaston - a fully paid up member of the Awkward Squad and a bloody superb example of how the primary system could operate to give us free-thinking members of Parliament, rather than the sorry parade of placemen that all parties currently deliver.

  • BenM said:

    BenM said:

    FPT

    The Clacton turnout for the Tory open primary has been announced: it's 0.36%. [67,000 eligible voters, actually voting 240]

    Open primaries are an interesting idea, but maybe need a bit more thought.

    Another American-style import that hasn't travelled well.
    What would you prefer? Labour stictch-ups win conjunction with the unions?
    I prefer Tory stitch ups with old school tie buddies getting soft Surrey seats.
    To be serious for a moment, you have a point. One of the biggest problems with parliament is that it - like the HoL - is getting filled with lifetime politicos. With Labour it is union yes-men, SPADs, and other assorted hangers-on. With the Conservatives there are too many old school boys.

    But Labour has no idea to address it. AWS just get women who have been through the political process and have the same mindset as the men, and is (in my mind at least) misandric.

    Open primaries are a tool to cure this, albeit one that needs careful use. The Conservatives need congratulating for at least trying them and getting more varied people into parliament.

    (NIck Palmer is a welcome exception to the above).
  • As I correctly predicted yesterday, Stephen Fisher's latest 2015 GE seats projection, based on UKPR's average polling figures, has Labour overtaking the Tories, (showing changes compared with last week) as follows:

    Lab ............ 299 (+4 seats)
    Con ........... 295 (-6 seats)
    LibDem ....... 27 (+1 seat)
    Other .......... 29 (+1 seat)

    Total ........ 650 seats
  • FPT: King Cole, don't care.

    I don't want to see the UK end, but I'd rather lose Scotland than England.

    Mr. Owl, you're quite right.

    Mr. Verulamius, don't be daft. A Yorkshire Parliament (and others) would institutionalise intra-English division and discord. Did the Scottish Parliament 'kill nationalism stone dead', or did it lead to the very realistic prospect of Scotland leaving altogether?

    On-topic: this line seems odd to me. If Yes wins will people say it was because No couldn't persuade men?
  • No workable majority for Lab/Lib or Con/Lib!
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited September 2014
    BenM said:

    I prefer Tory stitch ups with old school tie buddies getting soft Surrey seats.

    My favourite is Farage making the selection without even bothering to tell the local party or the guy who thought he was the candidate, which is deliciously ironic for a party which claims to be against 'cosy stitch-ups' and whose new candidate was, until he stitched himself in, a leading advocate of open primaries.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    A lot of the people complaining about the lack of detail about what independence might mean havent read all the information out there about what independence might mean. And a lot of the areas of genuine uncertainty are for negotiation after a 'yes' vote and it suits the other party to those negotiations to leave these as uncertain as possible until the vote has been held.

  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    BenM said:

    I prefer Tory stitch ups with old school tie buddies getting soft Surrey seats.

    My favourite is Farage making the selection without even bothering to tell the local party or the guy who thought he was the candidate, which is deliciously ironic for a party which claims to be against 'cosy stictch-ups' and whose new candidate was, until he stiched himself in, a leading advocate of open primaries.
    I don't think Carswell supported open primaries for sitting MPs.
  • No workable majority for Lab/Lib or Con/Lib!

    As I have been warning for some time. Perhaps the financial markets, once IndyRef is out of the way, will wake up to this risk.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    IIRC German Shepherds were renamed Alastians because of the WWs. Now it's back to GSDs again.

    Perhaps a Great Dane?
    Carnyx said:

    Plato said:

    Oh dammit - too early for me - yes Westies.

    I'm trying to think of a suitable EuroMutt - a Labradoodle doesn't cut the mustard. More of a Daschoodle perhaps?

    Carnyx said:

    Plato said:

    Will elderly couples no longer have white Scottie dogs as child substitutes? What about tartan dog coat and collar manufacturers!?

    Will Caesar have a RUK dog on their tins instead? No doubt Kippers will worry about a EuroMutt taking over.

    I Think We Should Be Told.

    I see that "Life and Style" has a feature on how to de-tartanise your wardrobe.

    Just one aspect of the backlash to come.

    No longer will the Celtic tail wag the English dog.
    You mean West Highland terriers, surely?



    Would an Alsatian do? [edited to remove double entendre]
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    No workable majority for Lab/Lib or Con/Lib!

    As I have been warning for some time. Perhaps the financial markets, once IndyRef is out of the way, will wake up to this risk.
    Why should it be a risk? Con / Lab would hardly be much different to either Lab / Lib or Con / Lib and would be guaranteed to have the numbers.

  • FPT: King Cole, don't care.

    I don't want to see the UK end, but I'd rather lose Scotland than England.

    Mr. Owl, you're quite right.

    Mr. Verulamius, don't be daft. A Yorkshire Parliament (and others) would institutionalise intra-English division and discord. Did the Scottish Parliament 'kill nationalism stone dead', or did it lead to the very realistic prospect of Scotland leaving altogether?

    On-topic: this line seems odd to me. If Yes wins will people say it was because No couldn't persuade men?

    Ultimately we are a very dividend nation. We have a strong tory south, and a strong labour north. Caused by the policies and mistakes of both parties over the last 40 years.

    No matter who is in power, we have a large group, based largely on geography of unhappy people, and that does not bode well for the nation.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited September 2014
    BenM said:

    FPT

    The Clacton turnout for the Tory open primary has been announced: it's 0.36%. [67,000 eligible voters, actually voting 240]

    Open primaries are an interesting idea, but maybe need a bit more thought.

    Another American-style import that hasn't travelled well.
    It hasn't travelled well because we don't do it properly. In the US anyone can run and you'll have a genuine ideological debate between the candidates. In the UK, they are all pre-sanctioned all agree with their party leader on virtually everything. When the most compelling pitch is "I'm going to pressure the council to address potholes more!" it's not surprising people don't turn out. It's like PRC-style democracy.
  • rogerhrogerh Posts: 282
    The latest figures from you Gov is the same as the average for all recent polls ie 52 no 48 yes.
    The yes lead from previous you gov polls does not seem to have generated a band wagon but rather a pulling back from the brink particularly from women.
    I have much enjoyed the discomfort of the UK Establishment and still hope for a yes vote.However (unfortunately) it looks to me like a no vote will prevail on the 18th.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    Scott_P said:

    @AlanRoden: Jim Sillars: "When we get a Yes majority, we will use that power for a day of reckoning with BP and the banks." #indyref

    Words fail me

    Good luck Jim!

    They've managed to hollow out banking and finance, might as well do the same with oil.

    Tourism's stuffed - no one of sound mind will bother visiting such a hostile and divided nation.

    What's left?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453


    What's left?

    Turnips
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    They'll rue the day!

    Whatever side of the debate you're on - the bully-boy tactics and threats from some Yessers is really appalling.
    Scott_P said:

    @AlanRoden: Jim Sillars: "When we get a Yes majority, we will use that power for a day of reckoning with BP and the banks." #indyref

    Words fail me

  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    Scott_P said:

    Said this yesterday...

    @benrileysmith: Salmond's contradictory RBS stance.
    A) Old news, not significant, has no consequences.
    B) Sensitive info, outrageous leak, inquiry needed.

    No, I think you'll find that benrileysmith said this yesterday.

    Scott'n'paste indeed.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Scott_P said:

    @AlanRoden: Jim Sillars: "When we get a Yes majority, we will use that power for a day of reckoning with BP and the banks." #indyref

    Words fail me

    Good luck Jim!

    They've managed to hollow out banking and finance, might as well do the same with oil.

    Tourism's stuffed - no one of sound mind will bother visiting such a hostile and divided nation.

    What's left?
    I'm sure they'll be able to borrow easily on the markets to sustain a large public sector... oh wait.
  • Socrates said:

    BenM said:

    FPT

    The Clacton turnout for the Tory open primary has been announced: it's 0.36%. [67,000 eligible voters, actually voting 240]

    Open primaries are an interesting idea, but maybe need a bit more thought.

    Another American-style import that hasn't travelled well.
    It hasn't travelled well because we don't do it properly. In the US anyone can run and you'll have a genuine ideological debate between the candidates. In the UK, they are all pre-sanctioned all agree with their party leader on virtually everything. When the most compelling pitch is "I'm going to pressure the council to address potholes more!" it's not surprising people don't turn out. It's like PRC-style democracy.
    Not to mention the fact that the average backbench MP has about as much power as a 10W bulb. They're just (no offence to NP) a glorified social worker, or voting fodder.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    Re: ICM - Out tonight according to the guardian liveblog journo;

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/scottish-independence-blog/live/2014/sep/12/scottish-independence-referendum-cabinet-secretary-rejects-improper-leak-claim-live

    TheGreatBaldo
    12 September 2014 8:34am

    Hi Andrew

    Is the Guardian/ICM poll out tonight or is it out at the weekend ?

    After months of having widely diverging polls, in the last 2 weeks, all of them have appeared to now come into line with the figures that Survation and Panelbase are producing.

    Can't remember what the last ICM poll for Scotland on Sunday said. but I'll go for this one showing a small NO lead, within the margin of error once D/K's are excluded.

    --

    Guardian staff
    AndrewSparrow

    12 September 2014 9:08am

    I think it's out tonight.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    If a week ago people had been told the average of the polls now would be 52/48 no, people supporting the union would have been beside themselves with worry... Because it's been worse on one occasion they are cheering from the rafters. Peculiar
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,970
    OT. Listening to the summing up in the OP trial I'm rapidly coming to the view that no jury trials are the way to go. We're listening to a very complex jigsaw puzzle being pieced together and it's very impressive.

    I've never sat on a jury though I imagine the machinations are very close to a pre production meeting of which I have sat through lots.....

    The remarkable thing is how often uninformed opinion can hold sway and how often bad decisions are made because so many around the table are too weak or stupid to think for themselves.
  • Scott_P said:

    @iainmartin1: Did I hear correctly on @BBCr4today that @YesScotland is organising march to polling stations in Glasgow on Thursday? Really?

    @hugorifkind: This. RT @VictoriaPeckham: Also Yes voters organising community marches to polling stations seems intimidating & counter democratic to me.

    Get your armbands on folks

    Straight out of Il Duce's play book. Profoundly disturbing.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    This Clegg stuff about more powers to the existing regions is properly stupid. I have a lot of family in Hertfordshire and Essex. Their interests lie with London, and having power move from national government to regional government extending out to East Anglia is stupid. It seems like the only reason they were put in the East of England in the first place is to equalise population between regions, rather than on economic or geographic merit.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I thought it was a masterstroke by Salmond to assert that SIndy won't pay it's share of the debts *as they aren't Scottish debts*.

    Well, I'm sure that's just the sort of reassurance the money markets love to hear.

    I honestly think he's losing his mind. Or believing his own renta-a-mob publicity. No one with their senses intact would make even idle or jocular threats like that.

    It's Swaggernomics.
    Socrates said:

    Scott_P said:

    @AlanRoden: Jim Sillars: "When we get a Yes majority, we will use that power for a day of reckoning with BP and the banks." #indyref

    Words fail me

    Good luck Jim!

    They've managed to hollow out banking and finance, might as well do the same with oil.

    Tourism's stuffed - no one of sound mind will bother visiting such a hostile and divided nation.

    What's left?
    I'm sure they'll be able to borrow easily on the markets to sustain a large public sector... oh wait.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    With Survation being 47-53 and Yougov 48-52 I have to say the 7-4 that Survation to beat Yougov in the final poll is very good odds as it looks like a coin flip to me.
  • Mr. Socrates, another sound argument against the latest Clegg idiocy. Some areas (Yorkshire, for example) are pretty large, well-populated and have a strong sense of identity. Others just don't. They're either too small, not wealthy enough or don't have enough people. We'll end up gerrymandering nonsensical boundaries when we've got the perfect boundary already (the English border).
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Mr. Verulamius, don't be daft. A Yorkshire Parliament (and others) would institutionalise intra-English division and discord. Did the Scottish Parliament 'kill nationalism stone dead', or did it lead to the very realistic prospect of Scotland leaving altogether?

    Can you imagine the fun and games to be had when an English parliament proposes independence from the Union.

    After a period of negotiation we could agree to a federation with Wales and Northern Ireland :)
  • Talking of Stephen Fisher, did we notice his piece of yesterday on the IndyRef polls?

    http://electionsetc.com/2014/09/11/how-accurate-will-the-scottish-independence-referendum-polls-be/

    So overall the evidence is mixed, but not balanced. It seems more likely that the headline poll figures excluding Don’t Knows are over rather than under-estimating the vote for Scottish independence, and this will be especially true of the final polls.
  • Since this poll, we had the IFS confirming Salmond's NHS lies, the banks scarpering and Asda, Sainsbury (albeit though King) and John Lewis saying costs will go up.

    Would tend to think that will affect the trust factor even more.

    It looks as though the leaders popping up to tell us not to go is not going to have the negative effect the Yesperates were hoping for.

    Still not home and dry yet..........

    Still waiting for Salmond's Kinnock beach or Browns bigot moment.

    Lack of sleep and Mars bars is bound to affect the man.
  • Socrates said:

    BenM said:

    FPT

    The Clacton turnout for the Tory open primary has been announced: it's 0.36%. [67,000 eligible voters, actually voting 240]

    Open primaries are an interesting idea, but maybe need a bit more thought.

    Another American-style import that hasn't travelled well.
    It hasn't travelled well because we don't do it properly. In the US anyone can run and you'll have a genuine ideological debate between the candidates. In the UK, they are all pre-sanctioned all agree with their party leader on virtually everything. When the most compelling pitch is "I'm going to pressure the council to address potholes more!" it's not surprising people don't turn out. It's like PRC-style democracy.
    Not to mention the fact that the average backbench MP has about as much power as a 10W bulb. They're just (no offence to NP) a glorified social worker, or voting fodder.
    It could be argued that the recent work of the Home Affairs Select Committee shows that there are avenues for backbench MPs to make a real difference.

    If an MP wants to be lazy and be voting fodder, then they can. They also have the opportunity to make a real difference to their constituent's lives.

    But only if they want to.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited September 2014
    Plato said:

    They'll rue the day!

    Whatever side of the debate you're on - the bully-boy tactics and threats from some Yessers is really appalling.

    Scott_P said:

    @AlanRoden: Jim Sillars: "When we get a Yes majority, we will use that power for a day of reckoning with BP and the banks." #indyref

    Words fail me

    BP, and Banks first.

    Followed by anyone who voted 'No'.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,608

    No workable majority for Lab/Lib or Con/Lib!

    As I have been warning for some time. Perhaps the financial markets, once IndyRef is out of the way, will wake up to this risk.
    Since 1955, in periods where Italy had no working government, they averaged 4.4% GDP growth, as opposed to 1.3% when they had a functioning coalition, and just 0.1% when they had a single governing party.

    Basically, government turned out to be bad for economic growth.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Plato said:

    IIRC German Shepherds were renamed Alastians because of the WWs. Now it's back to GSDs again.

    I think you'll like this:
    http://www.petsworld.in/blog/panda-dog-yes-this-looks-like-a-panda-but-is-a-dog.html
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    The most startling part for Scotland about the vindictiveness and general levels of economic stupidity being shown by the SNP is that when the voters reject independence, then we return to the status quo ante - of these same belligerent people still being in control of the levers of Scottish power.

    Any Board facing a strategic decision on whether to be based in Scotland or England (or frankly, anywhere else in the known Universe) will be taking note.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,970
    BIG john

    Prof Fisher

    From the link you posted


    "The scales have tipped. After favouring the Tories since it launched in October last year, our model now makes Labour the favourite to emerge as the largest party in May".

    Surely the whole point of Prof Fisher's convoluted methodology is that he predicts the actual result way ahead of time. If every week he changes his projection we might as well ask SeanT
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    bohanroy said:


    Still waiting for Salmond's Kinnock beach

    The sycophantic applause at the 'International Press Conference' yesterday was a good effort
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    Yep, we blokes can do all the important stuff like waging war and poncing around playing alpha male---PMQs e.g.---and leave the unimportant stuff to the women, like raising a family and being practical.
  • Pulpstar said:

    With Survation being 47-53 and Yougov 48-52 I have to say the 7-4 that Survation to beat Yougov in the final poll is very good odds as it looks like a coin flip to me.

    Good spot ...... which bookie is offering this market btw?
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Mr. Socrates, another sound argument against the latest Clegg idiocy. Some areas (Yorkshire, for example) are pretty large, well-populated and have a strong sense of identity. Others just don't. They're either too small, not wealthy enough or don't have enough people. We'll end up gerrymandering nonsensical boundaries when we've got the perfect boundary already (the English border).

    We don't even have a Yorkshire region. For some reason they threw in north Lincolnshire with it.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    This is a very passionate campaign – dominated by optimism, but also with a unmistakable dash of fear. A dark side of nationalism is starting to present itself in Scotland: I was accused of being English by a ‘yes’ activist yesterday, his parting shot – and his ultimate insult. The Glaswegian pensioner I was talking to tells me that she hears that all the time, and she’s worried about it.

    Salmond has done a good job keeping a lid on the xenophobic elements of nationalism. But his agenda – Scotland for the Scots, etc - is undeniably the politics of disunity. Is it any surprise that it also encourages the politics of intolerance?
    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/09/how-the-young-and-the-english-restored-scotlands-no-lead/
  • rcs1000 said:

    Since 1955, in periods where Italy had no working government, they averaged 4.4% GDP growth, as opposed to 1.3% when they had a functioning coalition, and just 0.1% when they had a single governing party.

    Basically, government turned out to be bad for economic growth.

    Very different electoral system, leading to pork-barrelling coalitions which can't take difficult decisions. We have been extremely lucky in this parliament that we've had a coalition prepared to get on with addressing our problems, but it's naive to assume that the same luck will continue next time. Even if the arithmetic does add up, the politics may not.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    Scott_P said:

    @AlanRoden: Jim Sillars: "When we get a Yes majority, we will use that power for a day of reckoning with BP and the banks." #indyref

    Words fail me

    ROFL

    which banks ? There won't be any.

  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    Scott_P said:

    This is a very passionate campaign – dominated by optimism, but also with a unmistakable dash of fear. A dark side of nationalism is starting to present itself in Scotland: I was accused of being English by a ‘yes’ activist yesterday, his parting shot – and his ultimate insult. The Glaswegian pensioner I was talking to tells me that she hears that all the time, and she’s worried about it.

    Salmond has done a good job keeping a lid on the xenophobic elements of nationalism. But his agenda – Scotland for the Scots, etc - is undeniably the politics of disunity. Is it any surprise that it also encourages the politics of intolerance?
    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/09/how-the-young-and-the-english-restored-scotlands-no-lead/

    You wouldn't want to own any property in Scotland. The entire country could be in negative equity after a 'Yes' vote.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Roger said:


    The remarkable thing is how often uninformed opinion can hold sway and how often bad decisions are made because so many around the table are too weak or stupid to think for themselves.

    Roger, if you've left it to the meeting to try to make decisions I think it may have been your own political skills that failed you.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited September 2014
    Scott_P said:

    @AlanRoden: Jim Sillars: "When we get a Yes majority, we will use that power for a day of reckoning with BP and the banks." #indyref

    Words fail me

    Would that be 'Alan Roden' Political Editor of the Scottish Daily Mail. Secretary of the Scottish Parliamentary Journalists' Association?

    Sillars sounds like a complete nutter.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    Scott_P said:

    @AlanRoden: Jim Sillars: "When we get a Yes majority, we will use that power for a day of reckoning with BP and the banks." #indyref

    Words fail me

    ROFL

    which banks ? There won't be any.

    As for BP, make life too difficult and they'll simply shut down operations and spend their time and money on exploration and production elsewhere. If there's no profit in it why bother.

    Is Sillars going to take malcolm out in a dinghy, to man the platforms himself?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,608
    edited September 2014

    rcs1000 said:

    Since 1955, in periods where Italy had no working government, they averaged 4.4% GDP growth, as opposed to 1.3% when they had a functioning coalition, and just 0.1% when they had a single governing party.

    Basically, government turned out to be bad for economic growth.

    Very different electoral system, leading to pork-barrelling coalitions which can't take difficult decisions. We have been extremely lucky in this parliament that we've had a coalition prepared to get on with addressing our problems, but it's naive to assume that the same luck will continue next time. Even if the arithmetic does add up, the politics may not.
    Yeah, I know.

    But it's still fun fact :-)

    And I like the fact that when no decisions at all were being taken was the time when the economy did best...
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453


    Is Sillars going to take malcolm out in a dinghy, to man the platforms himself?

    Don't you mean THE dinghy
  • Do we know what Jim Sillars actually said? Is that just Alan Roden's interpretation of what he said?

    If he really did say what Roden is claiming, he's certifiably insane.
  • isam said:

    If a week ago people had been told the average of the polls now would be 52/48 no, people supporting the union would have been beside themselves with worry... Because it's been worse on one occasion they are cheering from the rafters. Peculiar

    Never interrupt a PB daisy chain in full engagement, it can get messy.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    Scott_P said:


    Is Sillars going to take malcolm out in a dinghy, to man the platforms himself?

    Don't you mean THE dinghy
    AKA The Scot Navy.
  • Roger said:

    BIG john
    Prof Fisher From the link you posted
    "The scales have tipped. After favouring the Tories since it launched in October last year, our model now makes Labour the favourite to emerge as the largest party in May".
    Surely the whole point of Prof Fisher's convoluted methodology is that he predicts the actual result way ahead of time. If every week he changes his projection we might as well ask SeanT

    The value in Prof Fisher is that it indicates what a "usual" trend is likely to lead to. We are now in a trajectory towards a Lab Govt. Although we have never had an General election date fixed so far ahead, which still creates some uncertainty.
  • RobCRobC Posts: 398
    Roger said:

    OT. Listening to the summing up in the OP trial I'm rapidly coming to the view that no jury trials are the way to go. We're listening to a very complex jigsaw puzzle being pieced together and it's very impressive.

    I've never sat on a jury though I imagine the machinations are very close to a pre production meeting of which I have sat through lots.....

    The remarkable thing is how often uninformed opinion can hold sway and how often bad decisions are made because so many around the table are too weak or stupid to think for themselves.

    Having been a foreman on a jury I'm not so sure about that. We took our duties in quite a long complex fraud trial very seriously. It did take its personal toll on some of the jurors though so certain types of crime such as complex fraud perhaps could be better dealt with in the way you suggest.

    The judge in the OP case has been very thorough and I don't disagree with her verdict. The notion though that Pistorius might escape with a large fine would seem curious to British eyes where culpable homicide or manslaughter and even firing a gun in a restaurant would be treated as very serious offences. I'd certainly feel in the circumstances he should receive a significant custodial sentence.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Since 1955, in periods where Italy had no working government, they averaged 4.4% GDP growth, as opposed to 1.3% when they had a functioning coalition, and just 0.1% when they had a single governing party.

    Basically, government turned out to be bad for economic growth.

    Very different electoral system, leading to pork-barrelling coalitions which can't take difficult decisions. We have been extremely lucky in this parliament that we've had a coalition prepared to get on with addressing our problems, but it's naive to assume that the same luck will continue next time. Even if the arithmetic does add up, the politics may not.
    Yeah, I know.

    But it's still fun fact :-)

    And I like the fact that when no decisions at all were being taken was the time when the economy did best...
    However much I complain about our politicians, the politicians of large chunks of Europe make them look like saints. In places like France, Italy, Romania, Czechia etc the political class is almost like an extractive class, when corruption is the norm. That's why it's bloody insane to try to politically integrate with them. The rot will just spread.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Populus Lab 37 Con 33 LD 9 UKIP 13 Green 2
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited September 2014

    isam said:

    If a week ago people had been told the average of the polls now would be 52/48 no, people supporting the union would have been beside themselves with worry... Because it's been worse on one occasion they are cheering from the rafters. Peculiar

    Never interrupt a PB daisy chain in full engagement, it can get messy.
    It's all about direction of travel, and the two most recent polls have sharply reversed that direction.

    To put in another way: After all the talk of momentum, it looks like we've reached the top of Mount Sindy, came face-to-face with a tribe of economic yetis, and are now careering back down the other side to safety. Some people, of course, are still denying the yetis ever existed.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,702
    Anorak said:

    Mr. Verulamius, don't be daft. A Yorkshire Parliament (and others) would institutionalise intra-English division and discord. Did the Scottish Parliament 'kill nationalism stone dead', or did it lead to the very realistic prospect of Scotland leaving altogether?

    Can you imagine the fun and games to be had when an English parliament proposes independence from the Union.

    After a period of negotiation we could agree to a federation with Wales and Northern Ireland :)
    I woud remind you that even the Republic of Ireland doesn’t seem to want the rest of Ulster at the moment!
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited September 2014
    RobC said:

    Roger said:

    OT. Listening to the summing up in the OP trial I'm rapidly coming to the view that no jury trials are the way to go. We're listening to a very complex jigsaw puzzle being pieced together and it's very impressive.

    I've never sat on a jury though I imagine the machinations are very close to a pre production meeting of which I have sat through lots.....

    The remarkable thing is how often uninformed opinion can hold sway and how often bad decisions are made because so many around the table are too weak or stupid to think for themselves.

    Having been a foreman on a jury I'm not so sure about that. We took our duties in quite a long complex fraud trial very seriously. It did take its personal toll on some of the jurors though so certain types of crime such as complex fraud perhaps could be better dealt with in the way you suggest.

    The judge in the OP case has been very thorough and I don't disagree with her verdict. The notion though that Pistorius might escape with a large fine would seem curious to British eyes where culpable homicide or manslaughter and even firing a gun in a restaurant would be treated as very serious offences. I'd certainly feel in the circumstances he should receive a significant custodial sentence.
    Right. Trial by jury is a hard-won privilege to make sure the criminal justice system reflects the views of the public rather than being the tool of the elite. It would be mad to get rid of it. I appreciate it's a difficult choice in South Africa, where the bulk of the population is so poorly educated so probably would not be able to do a good job.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited September 2014
    IIRC Jim Sillars was responsible for Harold Wilson losing his overall majority in 1975 when he defected to his newly-created party "Scottish Labour", complaining that the government "wasn't left-wing enough". It was of course the last time the party had a majority for 22 years.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited September 2014
    *double post expunged*
  • The value in Prof Fisher is that it indicates what a "usual" trend is likely to lead to. We are now in a trajectory towards a Lab Govt.

    That's not what his model says. What it says is:

    Approximate probabilities of key outcomes:

    Con largest: 48%
    … with a majority: 22%
    Lab largest: 52%
    … with a majority: 26%
    Hung Parliament: 51%
    … with Con largest: 25%
    … with Lab largest: 26%
  • Populus ‏@PopulusPolls 1m

    Latest Populus VI: Lab 37 (+1), Con 33 (-1), LD 9 (=), UKIP 13 (+1), Oth 7 (-2). Tables here: http://popu.lu/s_vi140912
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    And on the roll of shame goes
    A Rotherham Labour MP opposed calls for a investigation into the town’s child-sex scandal because he did not think it would help young victims or their families, it can be revealed. John Healey questioned the benefits of holding an inquiry into agencies’ handling of sex-exploitation cases, “especially if it focuses solely on Rotherham and on Asian men grooming white girls”.

    He was replying to a constituent who told the MP two years ago that he was “deeply disturbed” by articles in The Times accusing police and senior council officials in the South Yorkshire town of failing for a decade to protect children and prosecute their abusers.
    thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article4204153.ece
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited September 2014

    No workable majority for Lab/Lib or Con/Lib!
    Don't worry, Farage and chums will help make up the numbers.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    We know where you live...

    Plato said:

    They'll rue the day!

    Whatever side of the debate you're on - the bully-boy tactics and threats from some Yessers is really appalling.

    Scott_P said:

    @AlanRoden: Jim Sillars: "When we get a Yes majority, we will use that power for a day of reckoning with BP and the banks." #indyref

    Words fail me

    BP, and Banks first.

    Followed by anyone who voted 'No'.

  • Scott_P said:

    bohanroy said:


    Still waiting for Salmond's Kinnock beach

    The sycophantic applause at the 'International Press Conference' yesterday was a good effort

    That was weird, sometimes even Salmond didn't seem to know what they were clapping for.

  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    FPT:
    Re #Richard_Tyndall and #rcs1000

    I quite agree, I'm something of a libertarian myself. Unfortunately a wholly libertarian party will not get elected in this country (UK). People are too addicted to the teat of benefits and after 69 years of being told that the country (government) will look after you from cradle to grave, it is going to be a mighty battle to turn things around. The thing that is going for UKIP, at the moment, is that people are at last beginning, and only beginning, to see what a mess the established parties have made of the UK: with a notion also, that we as a nation are lying defenceless against a massive muslim threat and anything else that may harm us.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    VillanUK ‏@villanUK71 19m
    @libertyIAB @DavidJo52951945 @Nigel_Farage He never hides his opinion,dosnt sit on the fence, you know his policies. Cant be said for others

    Farage is on LBC this morning.
  • isam said:

    If a week ago people had been told the average of the polls now would be 52/48 no, people supporting the union would have been beside themselves with worry... Because it's been worse on one occasion they are cheering from the rafters. Peculiar

    Never interrupt a PB daisy chain in full engagement, it can get messy.
    Tipping point!
  • Scott_P said:

    @AlanRoden: Jim Sillars: "When we get a Yes majority, we will use that power for a day of reckoning with BP and the banks." #indyref

    Words fail me

    ROFL

    which banks ? There won't be any.

    As for BP, make life too difficult and they'll simply shut down operations and spend their time and money on exploration and production elsewhere. If there's no profit in it why bother.

    Is Sillars going to take malcolm out in a dinghy, to man the platforms himself?
    The BP example is quite the most ridiculous of companies threatening to 'pull out' in the event of a Yes. BP have already pulled much of their operations out of the UK entirely. Their Head Office is already in London not Aberdeen and the only operations they have in Scotland are those necessary for running their North Sea assets.

    Whether or not they pull out of North Sea operations will have nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not Scotland in independent. It will depend entirely on he balance of costs to profits (including tax regime) and the Oil price.

    As I have mentioned before, the UK government have grossly mismanaged the tax regime for UK oil exploration and have caused a big drop in exploration and development since 2010. However incompetent the Scottish government were it would actually be difficult for them to run the system in a more damaging manner than the current and previous UK governments.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,608
    Socrates said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Since 1955, in periods where Italy had no working government, they averaged 4.4% GDP growth, as opposed to 1.3% when they had a functioning coalition, and just 0.1% when they had a single governing party.

    Basically, government turned out to be bad for economic growth.

    Very different electoral system, leading to pork-barrelling coalitions which can't take difficult decisions. We have been extremely lucky in this parliament that we've had a coalition prepared to get on with addressing our problems, but it's naive to assume that the same luck will continue next time. Even if the arithmetic does add up, the politics may not.
    Yeah, I know.

    But it's still fun fact :-)

    And I like the fact that when no decisions at all were being taken was the time when the economy did best...
    However much I complain about our politicians, the politicians of large chunks of Europe make them look like saints. In places like France, Italy, Romania, Czechia etc the political class is almost like an extractive class, when corruption is the norm. That's why it's bloody insane to try to politically integrate with them. The rot will just spread.
    It reminds me of the famous exchange between Mrs Thatcher and an Italian voter

    "But surely you don't want to be ruled by Brussels" said Mrs. T
    "It has to be better than being ruled by Rome" said the Italian voter, shrugging...
  • Miss Plato, is Healey standing again in 2015?

    He deserves to be slaughtered at the ballot box.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Plato said:

    And on the roll of shame goes

    A Rotherham Labour MP opposed calls for a investigation into the town’s child-sex scandal because he did not think it would help young victims or their families, it can be revealed. John Healey questioned the benefits of holding an inquiry into agencies’ handling of sex-exploitation cases, “especially if it focuses solely on Rotherham and on Asian men grooming white girls”.

    He was replying to a constituent who told the MP two years ago that he was “deeply disturbed” by articles in The Times accusing police and senior council officials in the South Yorkshire town of failing for a decade to protect children and prosecute their abusers.
    thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article4204153.ece

    “especially if it focuses solely on Rotherham and on Asian men grooming white girls”

    We all know what was motivating him.

    Still, I suppose it's not likely to be as bad as the suspended Labour councillor who was head of a taxi firm and had a cousin that worked for him arrested for rape.
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited September 2014
    Scott_P said:

    @AlanRoden: Jim Sillars: "When we get a Yes majority, we will use that power for a day of reckoning with BP and the banks." #indyref
    Words fail me

    No problem, Scotland's Yes believe in a socialist paradise. Money grows on trees, the rich taxed to death and after death, endless welfare, mass immigration and open to invaders. Who needs capitalists? Everyone living to the same level of Glaswegians so they can have an African level of life chances and mortality rates. Hic.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    Plato said:

    We know where you live...

    Plato said:

    They'll rue the day!

    Whatever side of the debate you're on - the bully-boy tactics and threats from some Yessers is really appalling.

    Scott_P said:

    @AlanRoden: Jim Sillars: "When we get a Yes majority, we will use that power for a day of reckoning with BP and the banks." #indyref

    Words fail me

    BP, and Banks first.

    Followed by anyone who voted 'No'.

    Ah, that explains the Community Marches.

    They're going to 'liberate' the Registers for future use.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,702

    No workable majority for Lab/Lib or Con/Lib!
    SF with 5 seats don’t attend. PC, Green generally sympathetic to Labour. I would have thought that Lab/LD’s just about workable. Especially if Tories actually do lose 1 or 2 to UKIP and start tearing themselves apart.
This discussion has been closed.