Support for Brexit drops to new low – politicalbetting.com

bigjohnowls said:

HYUFD said:

mwadams said:

HYUFD said:

stodge said:

HYUFD said:

For Socialists the Cameron and Osborne government was worse than the current Boris and Sunak one as it was pursuing deeper spending cuts while this one has even increased spending.

Liberals however hate this government more than the Coalition, because of Brexit as well as the fact the latter included the LDs unlike this one

An interesting distortion of history - the Coalition supported measures to bring the public finances back under control after the disasters of the Brown era and the global financial crash of 2008. The recovery from that and the return of tax receipts helped get the deficit under control.

The reason the current Conservative administration is "hated" (your word, not mine) by Liberals and liberals is it is far more illiberal than its predecessors as can be seen in the legislation passed which continues to concentrate and centralise power within Whitehall and with Ministers in contrast to the Cameron period where MPs like Nick Hurd strongly supported the de-centralisation of power away from Whitehall and back to accountable local authorities.

Which does not defeat my point that Socialists hated the Cameron and Osborne government even more than this one at all, even if Liberals loathe this government more than Cameron's

I have put this to my Socialist friends. Anecdote would suggest that you are not anywhere remotely near accurate on that point.

I am, you only have to compare the views of a socialist like BJO on Boris and Starmer and Corbyn on here to those of liberals.

TBF I am a Socialist and I despised Cameron and May more than levelling up Socialist Boris!!!

Seriously though the deliberate "were in this together" (not) of the austerity years was everything I despise of the Tories. By comparison the Town Deals levelling up monies are at least trying to make amends.

My own town has had £millions from Boris more than from any Labour Govt. The illusion of Lab, particularly under SKS, being on our side is broken, probably forever, definitely whilst SKS is leader

Gardenwalker said:

biggles said:

StuartDickson said:

YouGov are the only pollster to correctly weigh geographical sub-samples.

London
Lab 50%
Con 21%
LD 12%
Grn 8%

Rest of South
Con 41%
Lab 33%
LD 14%
Grn 7%
Ref 3%

Midlands and Wales
Con 40%
Lab 38%
LD 9%
Ref 5%
Grn 4%

North
Lab 51%
Con 29%
Grn 8%
LD 8%
Ref 3%

Scotland
SNP 47%
Lab 23%
Con 14%
LD 7%
Grn 3%

(YouGov / The Times; Sample Size: 1779; Fieldwork: 26th - 27th April 2022)

“Ref”? Is that the Farage vehicle? Is it still going and is it standing in the locals?

It’s incredible that the Tories are still ahead in the Midlands. Do they suffer from very poor channels of communication inland?

Is it, essentially, still 2019 or something in Nuneaton?

HYUFD said:

SandyRentool said:

HYUFD said:

mwadams said:

HYUFD said:

stodge said:

HYUFD said:

For Socialists the Cameron and Osborne government was worse than the current Boris and Sunak one as it was pursuing deeper spending cuts while this one has even increased spending.

Liberals however hate this government more than the Coalition, because of Brexit as well as the fact the latter included the LDs unlike this one

An interesting distortion of history - the Coalition supported measures to bring the public finances back under control after the disasters of the Brown era and the global financial crash of 2008. The recovery from that and the return of tax receipts helped get the deficit under control.

The reason the current Conservative administration is "hated" (your word, not mine) by Liberals and liberals is it is far more illiberal than its predecessors as can be seen in the legislation passed which continues to concentrate and centralise power within Whitehall and with Ministers in contrast to the Cameron period where MPs like Nick Hurd strongly supported the de-centralisation of power away from Whitehall and back to accountable local authorities.

Which does not defeat my point that Socialists hated the Cameron and Osborne government even more than this one at all, even if Liberals loathe this government more than Cameron's

I have put this to my Socialist friends. Anecdote would suggest that you are not anywhere remotely near accurate on that point.

I am, you only have to compare the views of a socialist like BJO on Boris and Starmer and Corbyn on here to those of liberals.

Out of curiosity, do you consider me to be a Socialist?

Social Democrat

nico679 said:

People don’t like being reminded of bad choices so there will be a hardcore of Leavers still clinging to the Brexit fantasy .

You won’t be able to dislodge these people as they limpet themselves onto the fantasy and scratch around for the alleged benefits .

HYUFD said:

biggles said:

StuartDickson said:

YouGov are the only pollster to correctly weigh geographical sub-samples.

London
Lab 50%
Con 21%
LD 12%
Grn 8%

Rest of South
Con 41%
Lab 33%
LD 14%
Grn 7%
Ref 3%

Midlands and Wales
Con 40%
Lab 38%
LD 9%
Ref 5%
Grn 4%

North
Lab 51%
Con 29%
Grn 8%
LD 8%
Ref 3%

Scotland
SNP 47%
Lab 23%
Con 14%
LD 7%
Grn 3%

(YouGov / The Times; Sample Size: 1779; Fieldwork: 26th - 27th April 2022)

“Ref”? Is that the Farage vehicle? Is it still going and is it standing in the locals?

RefUK are standing in Redbridge in a few wards and here in Epping Forest too in Ongar

Sean_F said:

bigjohnowls said:

HYUFD said:

mwadams said:

HYUFD said:

stodge said:

HYUFD said:

For Socialists the Cameron and Osborne government was worse than the current Boris and Sunak one as it was pursuing deeper spending cuts while this one has even increased spending.

Liberals however hate this government more than the Coalition, because of Brexit as well as the fact the latter included the LDs unlike this one

An interesting distortion of history - the Coalition supported measures to bring the public finances back under control after the disasters of the Brown era and the global financial crash of 2008. The recovery from that and the return of tax receipts helped get the deficit under control.

The reason the current Conservative administration is "hated" (your word, not mine) by Liberals and liberals is it is far more illiberal than its predecessors as can be seen in the legislation passed which continues to concentrate and centralise power within Whitehall and with Ministers in contrast to the Cameron period where MPs like Nick Hurd strongly supported the de-centralisation of power away from Whitehall and back to accountable local authorities.

Which does not defeat my point that Socialists hated the Cameron and Osborne government even more than this one at all, even if Liberals loathe this government more than Cameron's

I have put this to my Socialist friends. Anecdote would suggest that you are not anywhere remotely near accurate on that point.

I am, you only have to compare the views of a socialist like BJO on Boris and Starmer and Corbyn on here to those of liberals.

TBF I am a Socialist and I despised Cameron and May more than levelling up Socialist Boris!!!

Seriously though the deliberate "were in this together" (not) of the austerity years was everything I despise of the Tories. By comparison the Town Deals levelling up monies are at least trying to make amends.

My own town has had £millions from Boris more than from any Labour Govt. The illusion of Lab, particularly under SKS, being on our side is broken, probably forever, definitely whilst SKS is leader

The people who hate Conservative governments fall into two distinct, if sometimes overlapping, groups.

Those who hate them on economic grounds, and those who hate them on cultural grounds. It's the latter who mostly hate the current government. It's the former who hated Cameron's government, or Thatcher's back in the day.

Gardenwalker said:

Sean_F said:

Leave's problem was that winning was incredibly difficult. Remain's problem is that Leave only had to win once.

No government is ever going to go back to a decade of negotiation with the EU to rejoin, and the EU is never going to want us back in any case.

I’m not so sure about the last point.
I admit both premises are unlikely, though, and the ideological project for Britain must be how to engage with the EU without actually joining.

biggles said:

nico679 said:

People don’t like being reminded of bad choices so there will be a hardcore of Leavers still clinging to the Brexit fantasy .

You won’t be able to dislodge these people as they limpet themselves onto the fantasy and scratch around for the alleged benefits .

This is why you and I will never agree on this, in a microcosm of many leavers and remainers. You see it an economic decision.

HYUFD said:

Leon said:

“What is the poverty rate in Natchez, Mississippi?
The poverty rate in Natchez is 35.9%. One out of every 2.8 residents of Natchez lives in poverty.

“How many people in Natchez, Mississippi live in poverty?
5,339 of 14,855 Natchez residents reported income levels below the poverty line in the last year.

“How does the poverty rate in Natchez compare to the rest of Mississippi?
The Poverty Rate across the state of Mississippi is 21.5%, meaning Natchez has a dramatically higher than average percentage of residents below the poverty line when compared to the rest of Mississippi.”

And Mississippi is the poorest state in the USA


https://www.welfareinfo.org/poverty-rate/mississippi/natchez

Mississippi of course is now staunch GOP but it used to be staunch Democrat, voting Democrat at every Presidential election from 1872 to 1964. It has always been poor but culturally conservative

FF43 said:

Gardenwalker said:

Sean_F said:

Leave's problem was that winning was incredibly difficult. Remain's problem is that Leave only had to win once.

No government is ever going to go back to a decade of negotiation with the EU to rejoin, and the EU is never going to want us back in any case.

I’m not so sure about the last point.
I admit both premises are unlikely, though, and the ideological project for Britain must be how to engage with the EU without actually joining.

I agree about engagement being the middle ground. The European Union runs a rules-based club. It isn't going to meet the UK half way to accommodate our requirements. Any engagement will be whatever the EU is doing anyway. So maybe the UK can engage on some programmes that it is comfortable with, but it will be limited. The EU is only show in town in Europe and there isn't a lot of engagement going on elsewhere either. The UK is out on a limb now but I don't see that changing in the foreseeable future, even though I think it should be working on those relationships

Steven Pinker, writing in an op-ed for The Wall Street Journal, claims that the poverty rate, as measured by consumption, has fallen from 11% in 1988 to 3% in 2018.[57] Burkhauser et al. find that accounting for cash income, taxes, and major in-kind transfers and updating poverty thresholds for inflation show that a Full-income Poverty Rate based on President Johnson's standards fell from 19.5 percent to 2.3 percent over the 1963–2017 period.

HYUFD said:

rottenborough said:

HYUFD said:

Leon said:

“What is the poverty rate in Natchez, Mississippi?
The poverty rate in Natchez is 35.9%. One out of every 2.8 residents of Natchez lives in poverty.

“How many people in Natchez, Mississippi live in poverty?
5,339 of 14,855 Natchez residents reported income levels below the poverty line in the last year.

“How does the poverty rate in Natchez compare to the rest of Mississippi?
The Poverty Rate across the state of Mississippi is 21.5%, meaning Natchez has a dramatically higher than average percentage of residents below the poverty line when compared to the rest of Mississippi.”

And Mississippi is the poorest state in the USA


https://www.welfareinfo.org/poverty-rate/mississippi/natchez

Mississippi of course is now staunch GOP but it used to be staunch Democrat, voting Democrat at every Presidential election from 1872 to 1964. It has always been poor but culturally conservative

Erm, didn't Mississippi go Dixiecrat at one point?

The Dixiecrats were Southern, states' rights Democrats

Sean_F said:

CatMan said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

Eabhal said:

Leon said:

“What is the poverty rate in Natchez, Mississippi?
The poverty rate in Natchez is 35.9%. One out of every 2.8 residents of Natchez lives in poverty.

“How many people in Natchez, Mississippi live in poverty?
5,339 of 14,855 Natchez residents reported income levels below the poverty line in the last year.

“How does the poverty rate in Natchez compare to the rest of Mississippi?
The Poverty Rate across the state of Mississippi is 21.5%, meaning Natchez has a dramatically higher than average percentage of residents below the poverty line when compared to the rest of Mississippi.”

And Mississippi is the poorest state in the USA


https://www.welfareinfo.org/poverty-rate/mississippi/natchez

Wonder if poverty is calculated state by state, or nationally.

I’m pretty sure it’s done both ways

America is fascinating for many reasons but one is that you can come here and not see ANY of the social/crime issues if you are carefully steered (which tourism authorities will do. Of course


I spent last night in Jackson, the capital of MS, and we had lovely cocktails in an antebellum house and then dinner in a chic new restaurant and I fell boozily into bed thinking Well this is refreshing, a nice safe southern city, with great bars and eateries

Then this morning I saw this:


“JACKSON, Miss. (WLBT) - People are being killed at a higher rate per capita in the state Capital City than any other major city in the U.S., according to a 3 On Your Side analysis of more than fifty municipalities across the country.

With 153 killings thus far in 2021, the homicide rate for Jackson is 99.5 per 100,000 residents, a rate that blazes past Memphis, St. Louis, and Baltimore.”

That murder rate puts it up there with some Latin American disaster zones

https://www.wlbt.com/2022/01/01/analysis-jacksons-rate-killings-per-capita-ranks-highest-us/

To put in context, that's about the same as London gets in a year. And London is a lot bigger.

London's murder rate is also sharply down this year so far (especially involving guns)

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/apr/25/no-london-shooting-deaths-in-six-months-as-police-stifle-gun-trade

By way of comparison, the murder rate in Jackson is about 45 times the rate in London.

Leon said:

FF43 said:

Gardenwalker said:

Sean_F said:

Leave's problem was that winning was incredibly difficult. Remain's problem is that Leave only had to win once.

No government is ever going to go back to a decade of negotiation with the EU to rejoin, and the EU is never going to want us back in any case.

I’m not so sure about the last point.
I admit both premises are unlikely, though, and the ideological project for Britain must be how to engage with the EU without actually joining.

I agree about engagement being the middle ground. The European Union runs a rules-based club. It isn't going to meet the UK half way to accommodate our requirements. Any engagement will be whatever the EU is doing anyway. So maybe the UK can engage on some programmes that it is comfortable with, but it will be limited. The EU is only show in town in Europe and there isn't a lot of engagement going on elsewhere either. The UK is out on a limb now but I don't see that changing in the foreseeable future, even though I think it should be working on those relationships

“Rules based club”

Jesus Christ. Do you not even slightly choke when you regurgitate this total bullshit? It’s the political equivalent of fecal vomiting

The EU is many things: good and bad. One thing it isn’t is an “organisation religiously tied to following rules”. It breaks them all the time. It’s the only reason it is still here

Leon said:

FF43 said:

Gardenwalker said:

Sean_F said:

Leave's problem was that winning was incredibly difficult. Remain's problem is that Leave only had to win once.

No government is ever going to go back to a decade of negotiation with the EU to rejoin, and the EU is never going to want us back in any case.

I’m not so sure about the last point.
I admit both premises are unlikely, though, and the ideological project for Britain must be how to engage with the EU without actually joining.

I agree about engagement being the middle ground. The European Union runs a rules-based club. It isn't going to meet the UK half way to accommodate our requirements. Any engagement will be whatever the EU is doing anyway. So maybe the UK can engage on some programmes that it is comfortable with, but it will be limited. The EU is only show in town in Europe and there isn't a lot of engagement going on elsewhere either. The UK is out on a limb now but I don't see that changing in the foreseeable future, even though I think it should be working on those relationships

“Rules based club”

Jesus Christ. Do you not even slightly choke when you regurgitate this total bullshit? It’s the political equivalent of fecal vomiting

The EU is many things: good and bad. One thing it isn’t is an “organisation religiously tied to following rules”. It breaks them all the time. It’s the only reason it is still here

Gardenwalker said:

Leon said:

FF43 said:

Gardenwalker said:

Sean_F said:

Leave's problem was that winning was incredibly difficult. Remain's problem is that Leave only had to win once.

No government is ever going to go back to a decade of negotiation with the EU to rejoin, and the EU is never going to want us back in any case.

I’m not so sure about the last point.
I admit both premises are unlikely, though, and the ideological project for Britain must be how to engage with the EU without actually joining.

I agree about engagement being the middle ground. The European Union runs a rules-based club. It isn't going to meet the UK half way to accommodate our requirements. Any engagement will be whatever the EU is doing anyway. So maybe the UK can engage on some programmes that it is comfortable with, but it will be limited. The EU is only show in town in Europe and there isn't a lot of engagement going on elsewhere either. The UK is out on a limb now but I don't see that changing in the foreseeable future, even though I think it should be working on those relationships

“Rules based club”

Jesus Christ. Do you not even slightly choke when you regurgitate this total bullshit? It’s the political equivalent of fecal vomiting

The EU is many things: good and bad. One thing it isn’t is an “organisation religiously tied to following rules”. It breaks them all the time. It’s the only reason it is still here

I agree to some extent.
The EU will break rules for key members, and - in a crisis - will extemporise new rules that over-rule old ones.

Good luck trying to change the rules in a few months, though, which is what Cameron - astonishingly - attempted to do.

nico679 said:

biggles said:

nico679 said:

People don’t like being reminded of bad choices so there will be a hardcore of Leavers still clinging to the Brexit fantasy .

You won’t be able to dislodge these people as they limpet themselves onto the fantasy and scratch around for the alleged benefits .

This is why you and I will never agree on this, in a microcosm of many leavers and remainers. You see it an economic decision.

Economics is only part of this for me .

Fairliered said:

StuartDickson said:

HYUFD said:

StuartDickson said:

YouGov are the only pollster to correctly weigh geographical sub-samples.

London
Lab 50%
Con 21%
LD 12%
Grn 8%

Rest of South
Con 41%
Lab 33%
LD 14%
Grn 7%
Ref 3%

Midlands and Wales
Con 40%
Lab 38%
LD 9%
Ref 5%
Grn 4%

North
Lab 51%
Con 29%
Grn 8%
LD 8%
Ref 3%

Scotland
SNP 47%
Lab 23%
Con 14%
LD 7%
Grn 3%

(YouGov / The Times; Sample Size: 1779; Fieldwork: 26th - 27th April 2022)

Still Conservatives lead in the Midlands and South, unless that changes and he also makes more progress in Scotland, Starmer is not going to get a majority even if he does win London and the North convincingly

The markets agree with you.

NOM 1.91
Con Maj 3.55
Lab Maj 5

Whether Starmer makes progress in Scotland will be irrelevant unless Labour gains are sufficient to make the difference between being the largest party in a minority government and gaining an overall majority. This is unlikely. Scotland doesn’t have enough seats to make a significant difference.

Carnyx said:

Fairliered said:

StuartDickson said:

HYUFD said:

StuartDickson said:

YouGov are the only pollster to correctly weigh geographical sub-samples.

London
Lab 50%
Con 21%
LD 12%
Grn 8%

Rest of South
Con 41%
Lab 33%
LD 14%
Grn 7%
Ref 3%

Midlands and Wales
Con 40%
Lab 38%
LD 9%
Ref 5%
Grn 4%

North
Lab 51%
Con 29%
Grn 8%
LD 8%
Ref 3%

Scotland
SNP 47%
Lab 23%
Con 14%
LD 7%
Grn 3%

(YouGov / The Times; Sample Size: 1779; Fieldwork: 26th - 27th April 2022)

Still Conservatives lead in the Midlands and South, unless that changes and he also makes more progress in Scotland, Starmer is not going to get a majority even if he does win London and the North convincingly

The markets agree with you.

NOM 1.91
Con Maj 3.55
Lab Maj 5

Whether Starmer makes progress in Scotland will be irrelevant unless Labour gains are sufficient to make the difference between being the largest party in a minority government and gaining an overall majority. This is unlikely. Scotland doesn’t have enough seats to make a significant difference.

Especially with a local Labour party positively favouring support for the Tories, as in Mr Sarwar's change of policy towards the Labour supporters of the Tory party in Aberdeen. When are they going to shift target?

Carnyx said:

Fairliered said:

StuartDickson said:

HYUFD said:

StuartDickson said:

YouGov are the only pollster to correctly weigh geographical sub-samples.

London
Lab 50%
Con 21%
LD 12%
Grn 8%

Rest of South
Con 41%
Lab 33%
LD 14%
Grn 7%
Ref 3%

Midlands and Wales
Con 40%
Lab 38%
LD 9%
Ref 5%
Grn 4%

North
Lab 51%
Con 29%
Grn 8%
LD 8%
Ref 3%

Scotland
SNP 47%
Lab 23%
Con 14%
LD 7%
Grn 3%

(YouGov / The Times; Sample Size: 1779; Fieldwork: 26th - 27th April 2022)

Still Conservatives lead in the Midlands and South, unless that changes and he also makes more progress in Scotland, Starmer is not going to get a majority even if he does win London and the North convincingly

The markets agree with you.

NOM 1.91
Con Maj 3.55
Lab Maj 5

Whether Starmer makes progress in Scotland will be irrelevant unless Labour gains are sufficient to make the difference between being the largest party in a minority government and gaining an overall majority. This is unlikely. Scotland doesn’t have enough seats to make a significant difference.

Especially with a local Labour party positively favouring support for the Tories, as in Mr Sarwar's change of policy towards the Labour supporters of the Tory party in Aberdeen. When are they going to shift target?

noneoftheabove said:

NickPalmer said:

darkage said:

I think you need to ask how many people want another referendum....
And the answer will be very few people. About 10%
Even if we did have another vote, few would like the likely terms on offer (free movement, euro, schengen etc), saying Brexit was a bad decision is not quite the same as support for rejoin.
It has fallen off the agenda.
I think that the EU has gone back to being an obscure issue that no one particularly cares about.

Not so, Darkage. A poll asked exactly that in November - 40% said yes, they would like another referendum. 33% said no, they wouldn't.

https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/news/most-brits-would-rejoin-eu-if-new-vote-held-survey-shows/

It's one of those issues that seems to have gone away because no political party is proposing it, but actually it'd probably be a real vote-winner if a party picked it up.

I think a lot of those Brexit questions are too emotional for some people to answer accurately, which skews the polling. Plenty will still be answering were you in favour of Brexit or is Brexit going well, rather than should we rejoin.

Rejoin would seem to have a lot of the same delivery problems that leave had back in 2015. It is nostalgic, unstable and ill defined, mostly relying on emotional connection. It would be another act of folly and self harm, so perhaps our brilliant electorate will actually choose it!

Aslan said:

Gardenwalker said:

Leon said:

FF43 said:

Gardenwalker said:

Sean_F said:

Leave's problem was that winning was incredibly difficult. Remain's problem is that Leave only had to win once.

No government is ever going to go back to a decade of negotiation with the EU to rejoin, and the EU is never going to want us back in any case.

I’m not so sure about the last point.
I admit both premises are unlikely, though, and the ideological project for Britain must be how to engage with the EU without actually joining.

I agree about engagement being the middle ground. The European Union runs a rules-based club. It isn't going to meet the UK half way to accommodate our requirements. Any engagement will be whatever the EU is doing anyway. So maybe the UK can engage on some programmes that it is comfortable with, but it will be limited. The EU is only show in town in Europe and there isn't a lot of engagement going on elsewhere either. The UK is out on a limb now but I don't see that changing in the foreseeable future, even though I think it should be working on those relationships

“Rules based club”

Jesus Christ. Do you not even slightly choke when you regurgitate this total bullshit? It’s the political equivalent of fecal vomiting

The EU is many things: good and bad. One thing it isn’t is an “organisation religiously tied to following rules”. It breaks them all the time. It’s the only reason it is still here

I agree to some extent.
The EU will break rules for key members, and - in a crisis - will extemporise new rules that over-rule old ones.

Good luck trying to change the rules in a few months, though, which is what Cameron - astonishingly - attempted to do.

If the French or Germans needed to change the rules in a few months, it would happen. Cameron's mistake was trying to do it while being neither French nor German.

ydoethur said:

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

So tell me, what are the odds that "Leon"'s next great opus will be -

"I'm a Fugitive From an Alabama Chain Gang: Fear and Loathing on the Natchez Trace"

How do you knap that in flint?

Leon said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

Incredibly, Jackson’s murder rate of 99.5 per 100k makes it the 3rd most homicidal city IN THE WORLD - ahead of Ciudad Juarez, way ahead of Cape Town, equal with Caracas, behind only Acapulco and Tijuana


https://worldpopulationreview.com/world-city-rankings/most-violent-cities-in-the-world


Trump is going to win in 2024

Isn't Mississippi already one of the most Red states in America, with no Democrats in any State-wide positions?

I mean there is a real sense the country is going to the dogs, crime is surging, inflation is rampant, Biden is a demented fool and Harris is a woketastic disaster

The republicans would walk it if it weren’t for trump being a loathsome bigoted crazy-ass narcissistic teetotal creepaloid weirdo

But I begin to wonder if the republicans can win even if trump is the candidate: ie trump can win

What middle Americans crave - I sense - is a no nonsense hard arsed right winger to get a handle on crime and woke and the rest of the diseased lefty shit but they DON’T want Trump. They want a kind of Giuliani (as he was, not how he is)

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

Another masterstroke from Putin the strategic genius comes home to roost:


Visegrád 24
@visegrad24
·
18m
Bulgaria’s PM Kiril Petkov met with Zelensky in Kyiv today.

He announced that Bulgaria will provide Ukraine with weapons and that Ukrainian military hardware will be repaired in Bulgaria.

This is a big deal.

Bulgaria has a lot of Soviet gear that Ukraine knows how to operate.

https://twitter.com/visegrad24

I am old enough to remember Bulgaria being seen as the most Pro-Russian of Eastern European states.

Foxy said:

That change of tune to being solidly in the European mainstream and looking towards the West for their future. Yet we told them to f*** off, or if not, we would f*** off. Brexit was driven by anti-east-european sentiment, we hated them for wanting to join our prosperity and freedom.

williamglenn said:

Foxy said:

That change of tune to being solidly in the European mainstream and looking towards the West for their future. Yet we told them to f*** off, or if not, we would f*** off. Brexit was driven by anti-east-european sentiment, we hated them for wanting to join our prosperity and freedom.

Why do you see everything as an expression of hate? It's not hateful to think that there are drawbacks to free movement and that immigration policy should be in the control of national governments.

Have you read anything by Ivan Krastev? The idea that you can gain instant access to modernity simply by moving west has not been an unalloyed good for countries like Bulgaria.

Foxy said:

FF43 said:

biggles said:

It’s amazing. I think some on here might genuinely believe Brexit is detectably a failure and having an impact on average people living normal lives. It’s not just a line they say. Nonsense of course, but they believe it.

Of course, they probably think I’m mad because in the end, with how it went, I concluded the only answer was a “hard” Brexit and things like the vaccine rubbish and Ukraine have only solidified my view.

That’s why there’s no point arguing on this matter. My lot won, it won’t be reversed any time soon, and all views are now fixed. Everyone just speaks past each other.

As long as the 2016 result is maintained as a frozen conflict, you are right. If we are ever to come to any kind of resolution, we will have to address this stuff. Which is why Brexit isn't done, even if it isn't going to be reversed.

I think it quite possible that Brexit will be reversed, but dont expect it to be in this or the next Parliament.

We see in the header that Brexitism is losing steam, and pro-EU sentiment maintaining its. It needs to brew somewhat longer, but as the flaws and follies of Brexit get larger, the grass will seem ever greener on the other side.

nico679 said:

MoonRabbit said:

Okay this is me doing my best not to spin it, just play it with two perfectly straight and fair questions any Libdem can ask.

What is our PB take here, Mail’s investigative project has found nothing new, just bigging up old stuff and even making stuff up into a dodgy dossier - in which case the rebuttal and suing them should be fast and effective?

Because if these revelations are true, these revelations going to be hugely damaging to Labour and the Labour leadership isn’t it? Their ratings on honesty and trust will be hollowed out, as they will be seen as just as big a liar and hypocritical as Johnson, only with Tories maybe getting a fresh face for GE with Labour lumbered with Starmer for the GE? 😦

I haven’t been able to read the full article but we’ll know if there’s anything substantial if the BBC and SKY News pick up on it . As the DM has now become just a Bozo fan magazine I’d tend to err on the lots of hysteria and not much substance for the timebeing! If this was an attempt to damage Labour before the council elections it seems a bit strange to do it at this time when most have already returned their postal votes , Parliament is in recess .

Gardenwalker said:

Foxy said:

FF43 said:

biggles said:

It’s amazing. I think some on here might genuinely believe Brexit is detectably a failure and having an impact on average people living normal lives. It’s not just a line they say. Nonsense of course, but they believe it.

Of course, they probably think I’m mad because in the end, with how it went, I concluded the only answer was a “hard” Brexit and things like the vaccine rubbish and Ukraine have only solidified my view.

That’s why there’s no point arguing on this matter. My lot won, it won’t be reversed any time soon, and all views are now fixed. Everyone just speaks past each other.

As long as the 2016 result is maintained as a frozen conflict, you are right. If we are ever to come to any kind of resolution, we will have to address this stuff. Which is why Brexit isn't done, even if it isn't going to be reversed.

I think it quite possible that Brexit will be reversed, but dont expect it to be in this or the next Parliament.

We see in the header that Brexitism is losing steam, and pro-EU sentiment maintaining its. It needs to brew somewhat longer, but as the flaws and follies of Brexit get larger, the grass will seem ever greener on the other side.

Another aspect of this, which I don’t think Brexiters realise, is that Remainers believe they didn’t just lost the vote, but that they were lied to during the campaign, and repeatedly lied to during the process of Brexit itself.

They also feel they have been continually gaslit and provoked by Brexiters.

Remainers have not forgiven, nor forgotten.
And we intend to outlive the Brexiters.

bigjohnowls said:

MoonRabbit said:

Okay this is me doing my best not to spin it, just play it with two perfectly straight and fair questions any Libdem can ask.

What is our PB take here, Mail’s investigative project has found nothing new, just bigging up old stuff and even making stuff up into a dodgy dossier - in which case the rebuttal and suing them should be fast and effective?

Because if these revelations are true, these revelations going to be hugely damaging to Labour and the Labour leadership isn’t it? Their ratings on honesty and trust will be hollowed out, as they will be seen as just as big a liar and hypocritical as Johnson, only with Tories maybe getting a fresh face for GE with Labour lumbered with Starmer for the GE? 😦

Not exactly an SKS fan but 6 page dossier my arse.😀

MoonRabbit said:

Okay this is me doing my best not to spin it, just play it with two perfectly straight and fair questions any Libdem can ask.

What is our PB take here, Mail’s investigative project has found nothing new, just bigging up old stuff and even making stuff up into a dodgy dossier - in which case the rebuttal and suing them should be fast and effective?

Because if these revelations are true, these revelations going to be hugely damaging to Labour and the Labour leadership isn’t it? Their ratings on honesty and trust will be hollowed out, as they will be seen as just as big a liar and hypocritical as Johnson, only with Tories maybe getting a fresh face for GE with Labour lumbered with Starmer for the GE? 😦

nico679 said:

MoonRabbit said:

nico679 said:

MoonRabbit said:

Okay this is me doing my best not to spin it, just play it with two perfectly straight and fair questions any Libdem can ask.

What is our PB take here, Mail’s investigative project has found nothing new, just bigging up old stuff and even making stuff up into a dodgy dossier - in which case the rebuttal and suing them should be fast and effective?

Because if these revelations are true, these revelations going to be hugely damaging to Labour and the Labour leadership isn’t it? Their ratings on honesty and trust will be hollowed out, as they will be seen as just as big a liar and hypocritical as Johnson, only with Tories maybe getting a fresh face for GE with Labour lumbered with Starmer for the GE? 😦

I haven’t been able to read the full article but we’ll know if there’s anything substantial if the BBC and SKY News pick up on it . As the DM has now become just a Bozo fan magazine I’d tend to err on the lots of hysteria and not much substance for the timebeing! If this was an attempt to damage Labour before the council elections it seems a bit strange to do it at this time when most have already returned their postal votes , Parliament is in recess .

👍🏻 . .

Regarding the elections . I don’t think the Tories will do as badly as anticipated , I think the Lib Dems will do very well and Labour okay but not make dramatic gains .

As you’re a Lib Dem I’m happy to say I used to live in Surbiton during the famous Ed Davey win by 52 votes and voted for him . I’m a Labour /Lib Dem mixer and do use my vote tactically if need be . And in Surbition voting Labour is just helping to enable the Tories .

MoonRabbit said:

nico679 said:

MoonRabbit said:

nico679 said:

MoonRabbit said:

Okay this is me doing my best not to spin it, just play it with two perfectly straight and fair questions any Libdem can ask.

What is our PB take here, Mail’s investigative project has found nothing new, just bigging up old stuff and even making stuff up into a dodgy dossier - in which case the rebuttal and suing them should be fast and effective?

Because if these revelations are true, these revelations going to be hugely damaging to Labour and the Labour leadership isn’t it? Their ratings on honesty and trust will be hollowed out, as they will be seen as just as big a liar and hypocritical as Johnson, only with Tories maybe getting a fresh face for GE with Labour lumbered with Starmer for the GE? 😦

I haven’t been able to read the full article but we’ll know if there’s anything substantial if the BBC and SKY News pick up on it . As the DM has now become just a Bozo fan magazine I’d tend to err on the lots of hysteria and not much substance for the timebeing! If this was an attempt to damage Labour before the council elections it seems a bit strange to do it at this time when most have already returned their postal votes , Parliament is in recess .

👍🏻 . .

Regarding the elections . I don’t think the Tories will do as badly as anticipated , I think the Lib Dems will do very well and Labour okay but not make dramatic gains .

As you’re a Lib Dem I’m happy to say I used to live in Surbiton during the famous Ed Davey win by 52 votes and voted for him . I’m a Labour /Lib Dem mixer and do use my vote tactically if need be . And in Surbition voting Labour is just helping to enable the Tories .

We went to a party in Surbiton 👍🏻

I think your analysis of what to expect is spot on. The nations top pesodolphonists have effectively advised us to expect a “meh” nothing to see here, result.

BigRich said:

MoonRabbit said:

Okay this is me doing my best not to spin it, just play it with two perfectly straight and fair questions any Libdem can ask.

What is our PB take here, Mail’s investigative project has found nothing new, just bigging up old stuff and even making stuff up into a dodgy dossier - in which case the rebuttal and suing them should be fast and effective?

Because if these revelations are true, these revelations going to be hugely damaging to Labour and the Labour leadership isn’t it? Their ratings on honesty and trust will be hollowed out, as they will be seen as just as big a liar and hypocritical as Johnson, only with Tories maybe getting a fresh face for GE with Labour lumbered with Starmer for the GE? 😦

No need to worry, the BBC will make shore it gets little or no attention, and most of the public will be unaware of it.

MarqueeMark said:

Gardenwalker said:

Foxy said:

FF43 said:

biggles said:

It’s amazing. I think some on here might genuinely believe Brexit is detectably a failure and having an impact on average people living normal lives. It’s not just a line they say. Nonsense of course, but they believe it.

Of course, they probably think I’m mad because in the end, with how it went, I concluded the only answer was a “hard” Brexit and things like the vaccine rubbish and Ukraine have only solidified my view.

That’s why there’s no point arguing on this matter. My lot won, it won’t be reversed any time soon, and all views are now fixed. Everyone just speaks past each other.

As long as the 2016 result is maintained as a frozen conflict, you are right. If we are ever to come to any kind of resolution, we will have to address this stuff. Which is why Brexit isn't done, even if it isn't going to be reversed.

I think it quite possible that Brexit will be reversed, but dont expect it to be in this or the next Parliament.

We see in the header that Brexitism is losing steam, and pro-EU sentiment maintaining its. It needs to brew somewhat longer, but as the flaws and follies of Brexit get larger, the grass will seem ever greener on the other side.

Another aspect of this, which I don’t think Brexiters realise, is that Remainers believe they didn’t just lost the vote, but that they were lied to during the campaign, and repeatedly lied to during the process of Brexit itself.

They also feel they have been continually gaslit and provoked by Brexiters.

Remainers have not forgiven, nor forgotten.
And we intend to outlive the Brexiters.

In America.

LOL

Gardenwalker said:

MarqueeMark said:

Gardenwalker said:

Foxy said:

FF43 said:

biggles said:

It’s amazing. I think some on here might genuinely believe Brexit is detectably a failure and having an impact on average people living normal lives. It’s not just a line they say. Nonsense of course, but they believe it.

Of course, they probably think I’m mad because in the end, with how it went, I concluded the only answer was a “hard” Brexit and things like the vaccine rubbish and Ukraine have only solidified my view.

That’s why there’s no point arguing on this matter. My lot won, it won’t be reversed any time soon, and all views are now fixed. Everyone just speaks past each other.

As long as the 2016 result is maintained as a frozen conflict, you are right. If we are ever to come to any kind of resolution, we will have to address this stuff. Which is why Brexit isn't done, even if it isn't going to be reversed.

I think it quite possible that Brexit will be reversed, but dont expect it to be in this or the next Parliament.

We see in the header that Brexitism is losing steam, and pro-EU sentiment maintaining its. It needs to brew somewhat longer, but as the flaws and follies of Brexit get larger, the grass will seem ever greener on the other side.

Another aspect of this, which I don’t think Brexiters realise, is that Remainers believe they didn’t just lost the vote, but that they were lied to during the campaign, and repeatedly lied to during the process of Brexit itself.

They also feel they have been continually gaslit and provoked by Brexiters.

Remainers have not forgiven, nor forgotten.
And we intend to outlive the Brexiters.

In America.

LOL

I am not sure why my current location should be of particular amusement to you, but they do say that unexplained bouts of laughter is a sure sign of insanity.

Gardenwalker said:

MoonRabbit said:

nico679 said:

MoonRabbit said:

nico679 said:

MoonRabbit said:

Okay this is me doing my best not to spin it, just play it with two perfectly straight and fair questions any Libdem can ask.

What is our PB take here, Mail’s investigative project has found nothing new, just bigging up old stuff and even making stuff up into a dodgy dossier - in which case the rebuttal and suing them should be fast and effective?

Because if these revelations are true, these revelations going to be hugely damaging to Labour and the Labour leadership isn’t it? Their ratings on honesty and trust will be hollowed out, as they will be seen as just as big a liar and hypocritical as Johnson, only with Tories maybe getting a fresh face for GE with Labour lumbered with Starmer for the GE? 😦

I haven’t been able to read the full article but we’ll know if there’s anything substantial if the BBC and SKY News pick up on it . As the DM has now become just a Bozo fan magazine I’d tend to err on the lots of hysteria and not much substance for the timebeing! If this was an attempt to damage Labour before the council elections it seems a bit strange to do it at this time when most have already returned their postal votes , Parliament is in recess .

👍🏻 . .

Regarding the elections . I don’t think the Tories will do as badly as anticipated , I think the Lib Dems will do very well and Labour okay but not make dramatic gains .

As you’re a Lib Dem I’m happy to say I used to live in Surbiton during the famous Ed Davey win by 52 votes and voted for him . I’m a Labour /Lib Dem mixer and do use my vote tactically if need be . And in Surbition voting Labour is just helping to enable the Tories .

We went to a party in Surbiton 👍🏻

I think your analysis of what to expect is spot on. The nations top pesodolphonists have effectively advised us to expect a “meh” nothing to see here, result.

Jerry and Margot are both voting LD this year.
They sacrificed while Boris partied.

(Tom and Barbara have obviously always voted LD).