I've seen bits of his evidence livestreamed. He is very, very funny, running rings round his cross examiners.
Goering, mind you, had the room in stitches throughout his trial at Nuremberg, and Wilde was pretty good in the witness box, so it is not a prognosticator of the outcome.
Out of interest, is that true of Goering? Would have assumed it was a joke only I know it’s often said the prosecution of him was incompetent.
Just imagine how bad it would have been if we didn't hold all the cards.
Thank goodness for the PM's oven ready deal!
The irony is the more the government talks about fixing the Northern Ireland Protocol it reminds the voters about Brexit and how badly Boris Johnson has handled it.
Elect a clown, you get a circus. Still, the punters like the entertainment and nobody worries about anything happening outside the Big Tent...
IMO, this version of the Tory Party deserves to be utterly routed at the next election and replaced with the sort of Conservatives that used to do competent, fiscal policies. You know..... serious people with some actual ability unlike the suit called Raab and the Hang'em and Flog'em Home Secretary we have.
You mean like austerity Osborne who you in the left also despised from 2010 to 2015
Actually, I voted for Cameron and Osborne.
I suppose from your political viewpoint, that makes me a "Lefty"
For Socialists the Cameron and Osborne government was worse than the current Boris and Sunak one as it was pursuing deeper spending cuts while this one has even increased spending.
Liberals however hate this government more than the Coalition, because of Brexit as well as the fact the latter included the LDs unlike this one
Please explain how voting Conservative makes me a Leftie
You're not the right kind of Conservative. You're the old kind.
I've seen bits of his evidence livestreamed. He is very, very funny, running rings round his cross examiners.
Goering, mind you, had the room in stitches throughout his trial at Nuremberg, and Wilde was pretty good in the witness box, so it is not a prognosticator of the outcome.
Ken Dodd completely humiliated counsel for the prosecution, of course.
If Depp wins, what then? Do we have a tiebreaker chaired by a French judge or something?
Just imagine how bad it would have been if we didn't hold all the cards.
Thank goodness for the PM's oven ready deal!
The irony is the more the government talks about fixing the Northern Ireland Protocol it reminds the voters about Brexit and how badly Boris Johnson has handled it.
Elect a clown, you get a circus. Still, the punters like the entertainment and nobody worries about anything happening outside the Big Tent...
IMO, this version of the Tory Party deserves to be utterly routed at the next election and replaced with the sort of Conservatives that used to do competent, fiscal policies. You know..... serious people with some actual ability unlike the suit called Raab and the Hang'em and Flog'em Home Secretary we have.
You mean like austerity Osborne who you in the left also despised from 2010 to 2015
Actually, I voted for Cameron and Osborne.
I suppose from your political viewpoint, that makes me a "Lefty"
For Socialists the Cameron and Osborne government was worse than the current Boris and Sunak one as it was pursuing deeper spending cuts while this one has even increased spending.
Liberals however hate this government more than the Coalition, because of Brexit as well as the fact the latter included the LDs unlike this one
You have a unique ability to know exactly what your opponents think, don't you? You will go far.
He thinks I'm a Commie, as good as. Which shows how much he knows.
But it's all bullshit to cover up for the fact he advocates free private schooling on the taxes and rates for himself and his mates - just call then C of E schools and then keep out the riff-raff. Only select for the middle class parents. Job done, especially as it's the rest of us who pay for this subsidy junkie's free private selective schools.
I think you need to ask how many people want another referendum.... And the answer will be very few people. About 10% Even if we did have another vote, few would like the likely terms on offer (free movement, euro, schengen etc), saying Brexit was a bad decision is not quite the same as support for rejoin. It has fallen off the agenda. I think that the EU has gone back to being an obscure issue that no one particularly cares about.
Not so, Darkage. A poll asked exactly that in November - 40% said yes, they would like another referendum. 33% said no, they wouldn't.
It's one of those issues that seems to have gone away because no political party is proposing it, but actually it'd probably be a real vote-winner if a party picked it up.
For Socialists the Cameron and Osborne government was worse than the current Boris and Sunak one as it was pursuing deeper spending cuts while this one has even increased spending.
Liberals however hate this government more than the Coalition, because of Brexit as well as the fact the latter included the LDs unlike this one
An interesting distortion of history - the Coalition supported measures to bring the public finances back under control after the disasters of the Brown era and the global financial crash of 2008. The recovery from that and the return of tax receipts helped get the deficit under control.
The reason the current Conservative administration is "hated" (your word, not mine) by Liberals and liberals is it is far more illiberal than its predecessors as can be seen in the legislation passed which continues to concentrate and centralise power within Whitehall and with Ministers in contrast to the Cameron period where MPs like Nick Hurd strongly supported the de-centralisation of power away from Whitehall and back to accountable local authorities.
Which does not defeat my point that Socialists hated the Cameron and Osborne government even more than this one at all, even if Liberals loathe this government more than Cameron's
I'll happily concede the second point but I can't comment on the first as I'm not a socialist though I see where you are coming from in economic terms.
I suspect there are other aspects of the way this Government comports itself which would annoy socialists far more than anything "the Quad" of Cameron, Clegg, Osborne and Alexander ever proposed.
For Socialists the Cameron and Osborne government was worse than the current Boris and Sunak one as it was pursuing deeper spending cuts while this one has even increased spending.
Liberals however hate this government more than the Coalition, because of Brexit as well as the fact the latter included the LDs unlike this one
An interesting distortion of history - the Coalition supported measures to bring the public finances back under control after the disasters of the Brown era and the global financial crash of 2008. The recovery from that and the return of tax receipts helped get the deficit under control.
The reason the current Conservative administration is "hated" (your word, not mine) by Liberals and liberals is it is far more illiberal than its predecessors as can be seen in the legislation passed which continues to concentrate and centralise power within Whitehall and with Ministers in contrast to the Cameron period where MPs like Nick Hurd strongly supported the de-centralisation of power away from Whitehall and back to accountable local authorities.
Nor did previous Conservative administrations advocate drowning migrants / asylum-seekers in the Channel or prosecuting anyone who helped them. Nor did previous administrations suggest proroging Parliament unlawfully, or breaking the laws which they themselves has passed mere months earlier.
For Socialists the Cameron and Osborne government was worse than the current Boris and Sunak one as it was pursuing deeper spending cuts while this one has even increased spending.
Liberals however hate this government more than the Coalition, because of Brexit as well as the fact the latter included the LDs unlike this one
An interesting distortion of history - the Coalition supported measures to bring the public finances back under control after the disasters of the Brown era and the global financial crash of 2008. The recovery from that and the return of tax receipts helped get the deficit under control.
The reason the current Conservative administration is "hated" (your word, not mine) by Liberals and liberals is it is far more illiberal than its predecessors as can be seen in the legislation passed which continues to concentrate and centralise power within Whitehall and with Ministers in contrast to the Cameron period where MPs like Nick Hurd strongly supported the de-centralisation of power away from Whitehall and back to accountable local authorities.
Nor did previous Conservative administrations advocate drowning migrants / asylum-seekers in the Channel or prosecuting anyone who helped them. Nor did previous administrations suggest proroging Parliament unlawfully, or breaking the laws which they themselves has passed mere months earlier.
But they are the wrong kind of Conservative. Like most of the Tories on PB.
I was shocked how little attention that received on the Six o'clock News tonight.
Given what the Kremlin has already said and done this week, it should be top of everyone’s mind. Entirely the right move by the US, but very ballsy - and ballsy on behalf of us all.
His lawyers, PR executives and other advisors basically took the loss in London, and prepared like crazy for this one. Every bit of this is scripted, every question that Ms Heard's attorney might throw has been prepared for. And jury consultants have sculpted every part of Mr Depp's demenaor.
Ms Heard, on the other hand, seems to have assumed that this would be a straight rerun of London, and has been caught rather off guard.
So, yes, I think he wins this one. But I am equally sure that we are not seeing anything like the real Mr Depp. We are seeing a Mr Depp designed for jury (and public) consumption.
I think you need to ask how many people want another referendum.... And the answer will be very few people. About 10% Even if we did have another vote, few would like the likely terms on offer (free movement, euro, schengen etc), saying Brexit was a bad decision is not quite the same as support for rejoin. It has fallen off the agenda. I think that the EU has gone back to being an obscure issue that no one particularly cares about.
Not so, Darkage. A poll asked exactly that in November - 40% said yes, they would like another referendum. 33% said no, they wouldn't.
It's one of those issues that seems to have gone away because no political party is proposing it, but actually it'd probably be a real vote-winner if a party picked it up.
IT's particularly interesting in a context of Scottish and NI politics, too.
Moan away if you wish. But most of you don't know why you lost. Saying the same thing again isn't productive, and incidentally, Einstein always denied that quote.
Anyone who voted for it is a fool or a knave and probably both. Keep believing that. Keep believing that France will welcome us back with open arms. The referendum result could have been different, but the mindset of some Remainers were and remain their worst enemy.
That is such bullshit. it's quite easy to sell anything to anyone if your claims do not have to have any basis in fact. Before non political advertising was as lawless as political advertising people were told cigarettes made you sexy and were good for you.
The notion that because more people were persuaded by a pack of lies it therefore was a good wise or correct decision is demented.
I was shocked how little attention that received on the Six o'clock News tonight.
Given what the Kremlin has already said and done this week, it should be top of everyone’s mind. Entirely the right move by the US, but very ballsy - and ballsy on behalf of us all.
And they've picked the right day to be Ballsy.
Putin is a Hammers fan and focused on the football?
Just imagine how bad it would have been if we didn't hold all the cards.
Thank goodness for the PM's oven ready deal!
The irony is the more the government talks about fixing the Northern Ireland Protocol it reminds the voters about Brexit and how badly Boris Johnson has handled it.
Elect a clown, you get a circus. Still, the punters like the entertainment and nobody worries about anything happening outside the Big Tent...
IMO, this version of the Tory Party deserves to be utterly routed at the next election and replaced with the sort of Conservatives that used to do competent, fiscal policies. You know..... serious people with some actual ability unlike the suit called Raab and the Hang'em and Flog'em Home Secretary we have.
You mean like austerity Osborne who you in the left also despised from 2010 to 2015
Actually, I voted for Cameron and Osborne.
I suppose from your political viewpoint, that makes me a "Lefty"
For Socialists the Cameron and Osborne government was worse than the current Boris and Sunak one as it was pursuing deeper spending cuts while this one has even increased spending.
Liberals however hate this government more than the Coalition, because of Brexit as well as the fact the latter included the LDs unlike this one
Please explain how voting Conservative makes me a Leftie
You're not the right kind of Conservative. You're the old kind.
That is the basic problem and why I switched to LibDem in 2017 and did not vote in 2019.
I've seen bits of his evidence livestreamed. He is very, very funny, running rings round his cross examiners.
Goering, mind you, had the room in stitches throughout his trial at Nuremberg, and Wilde was pretty good in the witness box, so it is not a prognosticator of the outcome.
Out of interest, is that true of Goering? Would have assumed it was a joke only I know it’s often said the prosecution of him was incompetent.
I know it by hearsay. Give me 10 minutes...
OK not proven. There's lots of photos of him and other Nazis laughing, in one case apparently at a translator who mistranslated the order of succession after AH as Hess 2, Goering 3 when actually it was the other way round. A joke which is lost in translation, on me anyway
Spookily there's lots of b&w footage of the trials on youtube.
I've seen bits of his evidence livestreamed. He is very, very funny, running rings round his cross examiners.
Goering, mind you, had the room in stitches throughout his trial at Nuremberg, and Wilde was pretty good in the witness box, so it is not a prognosticator of the outcome.
A fat lot of good it did him. He was still sentenced to hang...
For Socialists the Cameron and Osborne government was worse than the current Boris and Sunak one as it was pursuing deeper spending cuts while this one has even increased spending.
Liberals however hate this government more than the Coalition, because of Brexit as well as the fact the latter included the LDs unlike this one
An interesting distortion of history - the Coalition supported measures to bring the public finances back under control after the disasters of the Brown era and the global financial crash of 2008. The recovery from that and the return of tax receipts helped get the deficit under control.
The reason the current Conservative administration is "hated" (your word, not mine) by Liberals and liberals is it is far more illiberal than its predecessors as can be seen in the legislation passed which continues to concentrate and centralise power within Whitehall and with Ministers in contrast to the Cameron period where MPs like Nick Hurd strongly supported the de-centralisation of power away from Whitehall and back to accountable local authorities.
Which does not defeat my point that Socialists hated the Cameron and Osborne government even more than this one at all, even if Liberals loathe this government more than Cameron's
Talk about stating the bleeding obvious. Yes liberals hate this govt more than the Cameron govt because this govt is much less err liberal.
I think you need to ask how many people want another referendum.... And the answer will be very few people. About 10% Even if we did have another vote, few would like the likely terms on offer (free movement, euro, schengen etc), saying Brexit was a bad decision is not quite the same as support for rejoin. It has fallen off the agenda. I think that the EU has gone back to being an obscure issue that no one particularly cares about.
Not so, Darkage. A poll asked exactly that in November - 40% said yes, they would like another referendum. 33% said no, they wouldn't.
It's one of those issues that seems to have gone away because no political party is proposing it, but actually it'd probably be a real vote-winner if a party picked it up.
I think a lot of those Brexit questions are too emotional for some people to answer accurately, which skews the polling. Plenty will still be answering were you in favour of Brexit or is Brexit going well, rather than should we rejoin.
Rejoin would seem to have a lot of the same delivery problems that leave had back in 2015. It is nostalgic, unstable and ill defined, mostly relying on emotional connection. It would be another act of folly and self harm, so perhaps our brilliant electorate will actually choose it!
I've seen bits of his evidence livestreamed. He is very, very funny, running rings round his cross examiners.
Goering, mind you, had the room in stitches throughout his trial at Nuremberg, and Wilde was pretty good in the witness box, so it is not a prognosticator of the outcome.
Ken Dodd completely humiliated counsel for the prosecution, of course.
If Depp wins, what then? Do we have a tiebreaker chaired by a French judge or something?
I must be missing the funny bits. The bit I watched was tedious in the extreme
Just imagine how bad it would have been if we didn't hold all the cards.
Thank goodness for the PM's oven ready deal!
The irony is the more the government talks about fixing the Northern Ireland Protocol it reminds the voters about Brexit and how badly Boris Johnson has handled it.
Elect a clown, you get a circus. Still, the punters like the entertainment and nobody worries about anything happening outside the Big Tent...
IMO, this version of the Tory Party deserves to be utterly routed at the next election and replaced with the sort of Conservatives that used to do competent, fiscal policies. You know..... serious people with some actual ability unlike the suit called Raab and the Hang'em and Flog'em Home Secretary we have.
You mean like austerity Osborne who you in the left also despised from 2010 to 2015
Actually, I voted for Cameron and Osborne.
I suppose from your political viewpoint, that makes me a "Lefty"
For Socialists the Cameron and Osborne government was worse than the current Boris and Sunak one as it was pursuing deeper spending cuts while this one has even increased spending.
Liberals however hate this government more than the Coalition, because of Brexit as well as the fact the latter included the LDs unlike this one
Please explain how voting Conservative makes me a Leftie
You're not the right kind of Conservative. You're the old kind.
That is the basic problem and why I switched to LibDem in 2017 and did not vote in 2019.
The older I get the more I want a proper “none of the above” box. Would be a lot easier for all to see who might not think of spoiling their ballot. Would be the best way of saying “I care and I’m engaged, but I won’t vote any of this mob”.
I've seen bits of his evidence livestreamed. He is very, very funny, running rings round his cross examiners.
Goering, mind you, had the room in stitches throughout his trial at Nuremberg, and Wilde was pretty good in the witness box, so it is not a prognosticator of the outcome.
A fat lot of good it did him. He was still sentenced to hang...
For Socialists the Cameron and Osborne government was worse than the current Boris and Sunak one as it was pursuing deeper spending cuts while this one has even increased spending.
Liberals however hate this government more than the Coalition, because of Brexit as well as the fact the latter included the LDs unlike this one
An interesting distortion of history - the Coalition supported measures to bring the public finances back under control after the disasters of the Brown era and the global financial crash of 2008. The recovery from that and the return of tax receipts helped get the deficit under control.
The reason the current Conservative administration is "hated" (your word, not mine) by Liberals and liberals is it is far more illiberal than its predecessors as can be seen in the legislation passed which continues to concentrate and centralise power within Whitehall and with Ministers in contrast to the Cameron period where MPs like Nick Hurd strongly supported the de-centralisation of power away from Whitehall and back to accountable local authorities.
Which does not defeat my point that Socialists hated the Cameron and Osborne government even more than this one at all, even if Liberals loathe this government more than Cameron's
I have put this to my Socialist friends. Anecdote would suggest that you are not anywhere remotely near accurate on that point.
I've seen bits of his evidence livestreamed. He is very, very funny, running rings round his cross examiners.
Goering, mind you, had the room in stitches throughout his trial at Nuremberg, and Wilde was pretty good in the witness box, so it is not a prognosticator of the outcome.
Out of interest, is that true of Goering? Would have assumed it was a joke only I know it’s often said the prosecution of him was incompetent.
I know it by hearsay. Give me 10 minutes...
OK not proven. There's lots of photos of him and other Nazis laughing, in one case apparently at a translator who mistranslated the order of succession after AH as Hess 2, Goering 3 when actually it was the other way round. A joke which is lost in translation, on me anyway
Spookily there's lots of b&w footage of the trials on youtube.
Shame. I loved the idea of him having a judge in stitches, just as he was reaching for the black cap.
His lawyers, PR executives and other advisors basically took the loss in London, and prepared like crazy for this one. Every bit of this is scripted, every question that Ms Heard's attorney might throw has been prepared for. And jury consultants have sculpted every part of Mr Depp's demenaor.
Ms Heard, on the other hand, seems to have assumed that this would be a straight rerun of London, and has been caught rather off guard.
So, yes, I think he wins this one. But I am equally sure that we are not seeing anything like the real Mr Depp. We are seeing a Mr Depp designed for jury (and public) consumption.
“Faecal delivery” was a good line delivered well. Bravo who came up with that.
Is it not the supporting witness statements that might be the telling blow? Eg The attending police officer saying that he didn’t consider Ms Heard a victim of domestic abuse so he didn’t give her a pamphlet.
His lawyers, PR executives and other advisors basically took the loss in London, and prepared like crazy for this one. Every bit of this is scripted, every question that Ms Heard's attorney might throw has been prepared for. And jury consultants have sculpted every part of Mr Depp's demenaor.
Ms Heard, on the other hand, seems to have assumed that this would be a straight rerun of London, and has been caught rather off guard.
So, yes, I think he wins this one. But I am equally sure that we are not seeing anything like the real Mr Depp. We are seeing a Mr Depp designed for jury (and public) consumption.
have you seen him being cross examined? Presumably that is not rehearsed. The substantive questions might have been, but the reaction to the way they are put is extemporary and, as I say, very funny.
Interestingly in 2016 Tory Cabinet Ministers voted overwhelmingly Remain. 23 out of 30. I can't find the number of Tory MPs but I'd assume it was a majority. It's easy to forget that Leavers were a small rump gathered around oddballs like IDS
I think you need to ask how many people want another referendum.... And the answer will be very few people. About 10% Even if we did have another vote, few would like the likely terms on offer (free movement, euro, schengen etc), saying Brexit was a bad decision is not quite the same as support for rejoin. It has fallen off the agenda. I think that the EU has gone back to being an obscure issue that no one particularly cares about.
Not so, Darkage. A poll asked exactly that in November - 40% said yes, they would like another referendum. 33% said no, they wouldn't.
It's one of those issues that seems to have gone away because no political party is proposing it, but actually it'd probably be a real vote-winner if a party picked it up.
I think a lot of those Brexit questions are too emotional for some people to answer accurately, which skews the polling. Plenty will still be answering were you in favour of Brexit or is Brexit going well, rather than should we rejoin.
Rejoin would seem to have a lot of the same delivery problems that leave had back in 2015. It is nostalgic, unstable and ill defined, mostly relying on emotional connection. It would be another act of folly and self harm, so perhaps our brilliant electorate will actually choose it!
OTOH this is a day when Mr R-M has basically admitted that HMG have screwed up their preparations for Brexit and fucked up totally and are postponing some of it for the 4th time - to the degree that the ports are considering suing.
It'll soon be the 5th anniversary of the vote. A child born on Brexit Day will be at school very soon. Imagine if there were no school places, no school books, no trained teachers ...
I've seen bits of his evidence livestreamed. He is very, very funny, running rings round his cross examiners.
Goering, mind you, had the room in stitches throughout his trial at Nuremberg, and Wilde was pretty good in the witness box, so it is not a prognosticator of the outcome.
A fat lot of good it did him. He was still sentenced to hang...
That was the point of my last 8 words...
Sorry. You used big words and that confused me ...
I think you need to ask how many people want another referendum.... And the answer will be very few people. About 10% Even if we did have another vote, few would like the likely terms on offer (free movement, euro, schengen etc), saying Brexit was a bad decision is not quite the same as support for rejoin. It has fallen off the agenda. I think that the EU has gone back to being an obscure issue that no one particularly cares about.
Not so, Darkage. A poll asked exactly that in November - 40% said yes, they would like another referendum. 33% said no, they wouldn't.
It's one of those issues that seems to have gone away because no political party is proposing it, but actually it'd probably be a real vote-winner if a party picked it up.
“What is the poverty rate in Natchez, Mississippi? The poverty rate in Natchez is 35.9%. One out of every 2.8 residents of Natchez lives in poverty.
“How many people in Natchez, Mississippi live in poverty? 5,339 of 14,855 Natchez residents reported income levels below the poverty line in the last year.
“How does the poverty rate in Natchez compare to the rest of Mississippi? The Poverty Rate across the state of Mississippi is 21.5%, meaning Natchez has a dramatically higher than average percentage of residents below the poverty line when compared to the rest of Mississippi.”
I am 100% sure that if we had voted to remain - and then seen the EU behave as they did over vaccines - and prevarication as they have over Ukraine - and spend the last six years attempting to extract more and more to prop up the Euro and extract trade from the city - and we're ruled over by unpopular leaders trying to govern us through a shitstorm who were irrevocably associated with Remain- that we would be seeing just as much regret over the decision to Remain as we do here over leave.
This seems to me exactly right. The problem does not have a solution (yet anyway) for two big reasons.
Firstly the immediate reason that in 2016 there was no possible outcome which would command general consent, nor was there an available outcome that was rational. Leaving created a new problem. Remaining failed to solve the old problem.
Secondly, and still overlooked, because by 2016 the UK population had not, for 40 years, been asked for their wholehearted and informed consent bit by bit for a series of measures which altered the nature of how power and authority and sovereignty worked in the UK. The EU had formed in a way which could never be accepted by a huge chunk of the UK population, but which was a juggernaut we could not do without. This democratic deficit was the biggest policy failure since the war.
There is still no outcome that commands general consent, just as in 2015 and 2016.
I think a lot of those Brexit questions are too emotional for some people to answer accurately, which skews the polling. Plenty will still be answering were you in favour of Brexit or is Brexit going well, rather than should we rejoin.
Rejoin would seem to have a lot of the same delivery problems that leave had back in 2015. It is nostalgic, unstable and ill defined, mostly relying on emotional connection. It would be another act of folly and self harm, so perhaps our brilliant electorate will actually choose it!
The problem for Rejoin will be the conditions for rejoining. It seems inconceivable for example we will get full access to the Single Market without Freedom of Movement and that's going to be the huge sticking point as it was six years ago.
None of the rest of it matters - as long as we want to control our own immigration policy and not allow open access to all EU citizens, we will be outside the Single Market.
No, it’s not. It’s grim. Real poverty here with a very thin veneer of tourism making it look ok
The downtown is a mess, at least by European standards
The difference between the America I lived in 15 years ago and the America I last visited just before lockdown is quite shocking.
The middle class barrier between ultra wealth and vast, "developing world" poverty of drugs and cardboard cities has thinned and thinned, to a point that goes a long way to explaining Trumpism.
“What is the poverty rate in Natchez, Mississippi? The poverty rate in Natchez is 35.9%. One out of every 2.8 residents of Natchez lives in poverty.
“How many people in Natchez, Mississippi live in poverty? 5,339 of 14,855 Natchez residents reported income levels below the poverty line in the last year.
“How does the poverty rate in Natchez compare to the rest of Mississippi? The Poverty Rate across the state of Mississippi is 21.5%, meaning Natchez has a dramatically higher than average percentage of residents below the poverty line when compared to the rest of Mississippi.”
I think you need to ask how many people want another referendum.... And the answer will be very few people. About 10% Even if we did have another vote, few would like the likely terms on offer (free movement, euro, schengen etc), saying Brexit was a bad decision is not quite the same as support for rejoin. It has fallen off the agenda. I think that the EU has gone back to being an obscure issue that no one particularly cares about.
Not so, Darkage. A poll asked exactly that in November - 40% said yes, they would like another referendum. 33% said no, they wouldn't.
It's one of those issues that seems to have gone away because no political party is proposing it, but actually it'd probably be a real vote-winner if a party picked it up.
40% of the population are masochists?
I think "have another referendum" should be read as "wish we could magic the last one and its consequences away."
I think you need to ask how many people want another referendum.... And the answer will be very few people. About 10% Even if we did have another vote, few would like the likely terms on offer (free movement, euro, schengen etc), saying Brexit was a bad decision is not quite the same as support for rejoin. It has fallen off the agenda. I think that the EU has gone back to being an obscure issue that no one particularly cares about.
Not so, Darkage. A poll asked exactly that in November - 40% said yes, they would like another referendum. 33% said no, they wouldn't.
It's one of those issues that seems to have gone away because no political party is proposing it, but actually it'd probably be a real vote-winner if a party picked it up.
I think a lot of those Brexit questions are too emotional for some people to answer accurately, which skews the polling. Plenty will still be answering were you in favour of Brexit or is Brexit going well, rather than should we rejoin.
Rejoin would seem to have a lot of the same delivery problems that leave had back in 2015. It is nostalgic, unstable and ill defined, mostly relying on emotional connection. It would be another act of folly and self harm, so perhaps our brilliant electorate will actually choose it!
OTOH this is a day when Mr R-M has basically admitted that HMG have screwed up their preparations for Brexit and fucked up totally and are postponing some of it for the 4th time - to the degree that the ports are considering suing.
It'll soon be the 5th anniversary of the vote. A child born on Brexit Day will be at school very soon. Imagine if there were no school places, no school books, no trained teachers ...
Yes continuing on this path is harmful as well, probably more so.
We need to move towards a much closer, co-operative partnership but now that we have left that partnership can only be stable if we are outside the EU.
So the government spent £200 million on border infrastructure which might never be used , decimated small exporters to the EU , just so Bozo could wank on about his oven ready deal.
Interestingly in 2016 Tory Cabinet Ministers voted overwhelmingly Remain. 23 out of 30. I can't find the number of Tory MPs but I'd assume it was a majority. It's easy to forget that Leavers were a small rump gathered around oddballs like IDS
I think you need to ask how many people want another referendum.... And the answer will be very few people. About 10% Even if we did have another vote, few would like the likely terms on offer (free movement, euro, schengen etc), saying Brexit was a bad decision is not quite the same as support for rejoin. It has fallen off the agenda. I think that the EU has gone back to being an obscure issue that no one particularly cares about.
Not so, Darkage. A poll asked exactly that in November - 40% said yes, they would like another referendum. 33% said no, they wouldn't.
It's one of those issues that seems to have gone away because no political party is proposing it, but actually it'd probably be a real vote-winner if a party picked it up.
I think a lot of those Brexit questions are too emotional for some people to answer accurately, which skews the polling. Plenty will still be answering were you in favour of Brexit or is Brexit going well, rather than should we rejoin.
Rejoin would seem to have a lot of the same delivery problems that leave had back in 2015. It is nostalgic, unstable and ill defined, mostly relying on emotional connection. It would be another act of folly and self harm, so perhaps our brilliant electorate will actually choose it!
OTOH this is a day when Mr R-M has basically admitted that HMG have screwed up their preparations for Brexit and fucked up totally and are postponing some of it for the 4th time - to the degree that the ports are considering suing.
It'll soon be the 5th anniversary of the vote. A child born on Brexit Day will be at school very soon. Imagine if there were no school places, no school books, no trained teachers ...
Yes continuing on this path is harmful as well, probably more so.
We need to move towards a much closer, co-operative partnership but now that we have left that partnership can only be stable if we are outside the EU.
It's not even as if they are executing a Johnsonian Brexit competently or efficiently.
I think you need to ask how many people want another referendum.... And the answer will be very few people. About 10% Even if we did have another vote, few would like the likely terms on offer (free movement, euro, schengen etc), saying Brexit was a bad decision is not quite the same as support for rejoin. It has fallen off the agenda. I think that the EU has gone back to being an obscure issue that no one particularly cares about.
Not so, Darkage. A poll asked exactly that in November - 40% said yes, they would like another referendum. 33% said no, they wouldn't.
It's one of those issues that seems to have gone away because no political party is proposing it, but actually it'd probably be a real vote-winner if a party picked it up.
I think a lot of those Brexit questions are too emotional for some people to answer accurately, which skews the polling. Plenty will still be answering were you in favour of Brexit or is Brexit going well, rather than should we rejoin.
Rejoin would seem to have a lot of the same delivery problems that leave had back in 2015. It is nostalgic, unstable and ill defined, mostly relying on emotional connection. It would be another act of folly and self harm, so perhaps our brilliant electorate will actually choose it!
OTOH this is a day when Mr R-M has basically admitted that HMG have screwed up their preparations for Brexit and fucked up totally and are postponing some of it for the 4th time - to the degree that the ports are considering suing.
It'll soon be the 5th anniversary of the vote. A child born on Brexit Day will be at school very soon. Imagine if there were no school places, no school books, no trained teachers ...
Yes continuing on this path is harmful as well, probably more so.
We need to move towards a much closer, co-operative partnership but now that we have left that partnership can only be stable if we are outside the EU.
It's not even as if they are executing a Johnsonian Brexit competently or efficiently.
They certainly spent time practising the eating of cake.
So the government spent £200 million on border infrastructure which might never be used , decimated small exporters to the EU , just so Bozo could wank on about his oven ready deal.
Just imagine how bad it would have been if we didn't hold all the cards.
Thank goodness for the PM's oven ready deal!
The irony is the more the government talks about fixing the Northern Ireland Protocol it reminds the voters about Brexit and how badly Boris Johnson has handled it.
Baffling, isn't it? You would expect them either to pretend it's all wonderful, lalalala, or change change the subject and never refer to Brexit again. Why would you want to reinforce that (a) your flagship policy is crap and (b) you can't negotiate out of a paper bag?
Ho-hum, are you still complaining about democracy? By it's nature, you win some and you lose some. You lost the argument. Don't you remember? I'm sure it was all over the media.
I think you need to remember that Democracy means that people can disagree even after the event. "Remain" lost but that does not mean that those who voted that way must shut up forever.
They are allowed to say it was a mistake, to have a contrary opinion.
It is called democracy.
You can say it's a mistake, but unless you're going to advocate Rejoining, it's just a pointless whinge.
But is life really any more than a succession of pointless whinges, anyway?
“What is the poverty rate in Natchez, Mississippi? The poverty rate in Natchez is 35.9%. One out of every 2.8 residents of Natchez lives in poverty.
“How many people in Natchez, Mississippi live in poverty? 5,339 of 14,855 Natchez residents reported income levels below the poverty line in the last year.
“How does the poverty rate in Natchez compare to the rest of Mississippi? The Poverty Rate across the state of Mississippi is 21.5%, meaning Natchez has a dramatically higher than average percentage of residents below the poverty line when compared to the rest of Mississippi.”
Mississippi of course is now staunch GOP but it used to be staunch Democrat, voting Democrat at every Presidential election from 1872 to 1964. It has always been poor but culturally conservative
Just imagine how bad it would have been if we didn't hold all the cards.
Thank goodness for the PM's oven ready deal!
The irony is the more the government talks about fixing the Northern Ireland Protocol it reminds the voters about Brexit and how badly Boris Johnson has handled it.
Elect a clown, you get a circus. Still, the punters like the entertainment and nobody worries about anything happening outside the Big Tent...
IMO, this version of the Tory Party deserves to be utterly routed at the next election and replaced with the sort of Conservatives that used to do competent, fiscal policies. You know..... serious people with some actual ability unlike the suit called Raab and the Hang'em and Flog'em Home Secretary we have.
You mean like austerity Osborne who you in the left also despised from 2010 to 2015
Actually, I voted for Cameron and Osborne.
I suppose from your political viewpoint, that makes me a "Lefty"
For Socialists the Cameron and Osborne government was worse than the current Boris and Sunak one as it was pursuing deeper spending cuts while this one has even increased spending.
Liberals however hate this government more than the Coalition, because of Brexit as well as the fact the latter included the LDs unlike this one
Please explain how voting Conservative makes me a Leftie
You're not the right kind of Conservative. You're the old kind.
That is the basic problem and why I switched to LibDem in 2017 and did not vote in 2019.
The older I get the more I want a proper “none of the above” box. Would be a lot easier for all to see who might not think of spoiling their ballot. Would be the best way of saying “I care and I’m engaged, but I won’t vote any of this mob”.
I think you need to ask how many people want another referendum.... And the answer will be very few people. About 10% Even if we did have another vote, few would like the likely terms on offer (free movement, euro, schengen etc), saying Brexit was a bad decision is not quite the same as support for rejoin. It has fallen off the agenda. I think that the EU has gone back to being an obscure issue that no one particularly cares about.
Not so, Darkage. A poll asked exactly that in November - 40% said yes, they would like another referendum. 33% said no, they wouldn't.
It's one of those issues that seems to have gone away because no political party is proposing it, but actually it'd probably be a real vote-winner if a party picked it up.
I think a lot of those Brexit questions are too emotional for some people to answer accurately, which skews the polling. Plenty will still be answering were you in favour of Brexit or is Brexit going well, rather than should we rejoin.
Rejoin would seem to have a lot of the same delivery problems that leave had back in 2015. It is nostalgic, unstable and ill defined, mostly relying on emotional connection. It would be another act of folly and self harm, so perhaps our brilliant electorate will actually choose it!
OTOH this is a day when Mr R-M has basically admitted that HMG have screwed up their preparations for Brexit and fucked up totally and are postponing some of it for the 4th time - to the degree that the ports are considering suing.
It'll soon be the 5th anniversary of the vote. A child born on Brexit Day will be at school very soon. Imagine if there were no school places, no school books, no trained teachers ...
Yes continuing on this path is harmful as well, probably more so.
We need to move towards a much closer, co-operative partnership but now that we have left that partnership can only be stable if we are outside the EU.
I am 100% sure that if we had voted to remain - and then seen the EU behave as they did over vaccines - and prevarication as they have over Ukraine - and spend the last six years attempting to extract more and more to prop up the Euro and extract trade from the city - and we're ruled over by unpopular leaders trying to govern us through a shitstorm who were irrevocably associated with Remain- that we would be seeing just as much regret over the decision to Remain as we do here over leave.
This seems to me exactly right. The problem does not have a solution (yet anyway) for two big reasons.
Firstly the immediate reason that in 2016 there was no possible outcome which would command general consent, nor was there an available outcome that was rational. Leaving created a new problem. Remaining failed to solve the old problem.
Secondly, and still overlooked, because by 2016 the UK population had not, for 40 years, been asked for their wholehearted and informed consent bit by bit for a series of measures which altered the nature of how power and authority and sovereignty worked in the UK. The EU had formed in a way which could never be accepted by a huge chunk of the UK population, but which was a juggernaut we could not do without. This democratic deficit was the biggest policy failure since the war.
There is still no outcome that commands general consent, just as in 2015 and 2016.
Strong agree with the last part - and for that, Cameron has to take a large share of the blame for the way he designed the referendum in the first place.
OT. Is Moon Rabbit a reincarnation of that Enoch Powell fan whose name I've forgotten?
Another great avatar from you Rogerdamus.
Are you a New Wave fan?
Thank you. One I took in Paris last winter. Yes I am (If you're talking about the French Nouvelle Vague) A big fan. I like most French Cinema of that time.
As wiki puts it succinctly, a French art film movement that emerged in the late 1950s. The movement was characterized by its rejection of traditional filmmaking conventions in favor of experimentation and a spirit of iconoclasm. New Wave filmmakers explored new approaches to editing, visual style, and narrative, as well as engagement with the social and political upheavals of the era, often making use of irony or exploring existential themes. The New Wave is often considered one of the most influential movements in the history of cinema.
Are you familiar with David Boring and Like a Velvet Glove Cast in Iron? Struck me as New Wave cinema scripts as soon as I read them. 🙂
So one of yours. Its excellent because I didn’t think that.
Mrs Macron didn’t mind you sneaking up and pap her then Roger?
Up to Spring 2018, Right and Wrong were nip and tuck with each other. (43 right, 44 wrong in mid May 2018). Since then, there's basically been a glacial shift to now 37 right, 49 wrong). Two blips- one at the start of Covid, the other at the vaccine wars. But otherwise, a very slow shift- a bit more than one percentage point a year. If one were being callous, it looks comparable with what you might expect from a simple model of the age profile of Leave/Remain voters and life expectancy data.
And that looks like a problem. There's a clear sense of the public thinking this is, on balance, a mistake. Baby Brexit has not endeared itself to peoples' hearts. But at the same time, there's nowhere near a mandate to reverse the policy, and nobody can really face doing that right now anyway.
For Socialists the Cameron and Osborne government was worse than the current Boris and Sunak one as it was pursuing deeper spending cuts while this one has even increased spending.
Liberals however hate this government more than the Coalition, because of Brexit as well as the fact the latter included the LDs unlike this one
An interesting distortion of history - the Coalition supported measures to bring the public finances back under control after the disasters of the Brown era and the global financial crash of 2008. The recovery from that and the return of tax receipts helped get the deficit under control.
The reason the current Conservative administration is "hated" (your word, not mine) by Liberals and liberals is it is far more illiberal than its predecessors as can be seen in the legislation passed which continues to concentrate and centralise power within Whitehall and with Ministers in contrast to the Cameron period where MPs like Nick Hurd strongly supported the de-centralisation of power away from Whitehall and back to accountable local authorities.
Which does not defeat my point that Socialists hated the Cameron and Osborne government even more than this one at all, even if Liberals loathe this government more than Cameron's
I have put this to my Socialist friends. Anecdote would suggest that you are not anywhere remotely near accurate on that point.
I am, you only have to compare the views of a socialist like BJO on Boris and Starmer and Corbyn on here to those of liberals.
I am 100% sure that if we had voted to remain - and then seen the EU behave as they did over vaccines - and prevarication as they have over Ukraine - and spend the last six years attempting to extract more and more to prop up the Euro and extract trade from the city - and we're ruled over by unpopular leaders trying to govern us through a shitstorm who were irrevocably associated with Remain- that we would be seeing just as much regret over the decision to Remain as we do here over leave.
This seems to me exactly right. The problem does not have a solution (yet anyway) for two big reasons.
Firstly the immediate reason that in 2016 there was no possible outcome which would command general consent, nor was there an available outcome that was rational. Leaving created a new problem. Remaining failed to solve the old problem.
Secondly, and still overlooked, because by 2016 the UK population had not, for 40 years, been asked for their wholehearted and informed consent bit by bit for a series of measures which altered the nature of how power and authority and sovereignty worked in the UK. The EU had formed in a way which could never be accepted by a huge chunk of the UK population, but which was a juggernaut we could not do without. This democratic deficit was the biggest policy failure since the war.
There is still no outcome that commands general consent, just as in 2015 and 2016.
Strong agree with the last part - and for that, Cameron has to take a large share of the blame for the way he designed the referendum in the first place.
Cameron committed an act of supreme constitutional vandalism with his ill-designed referendum.
It’s also astonishing that the public service let him get away with it.
“What is the poverty rate in Natchez, Mississippi? The poverty rate in Natchez is 35.9%. One out of every 2.8 residents of Natchez lives in poverty.
“How many people in Natchez, Mississippi live in poverty? 5,339 of 14,855 Natchez residents reported income levels below the poverty line in the last year.
“How does the poverty rate in Natchez compare to the rest of Mississippi? The Poverty Rate across the state of Mississippi is 21.5%, meaning Natchez has a dramatically higher than average percentage of residents below the poverty line when compared to the rest of Mississippi.”
Wonder if poverty is calculated state by state, or nationally.
I’m pretty sure it’s done both ways
America is fascinating for many reasons but one is that you can come here and not see ANY of the social/crime issues if you are carefully steered (which tourism authorities will do. Of course
I spent last night in Jackson, the capital of MS, and we had lovely cocktails in an antebellum house and then dinner in a chic new restaurant and I fell boozily into bed thinking Well this is refreshing, a nice safe southern city, with great bars and eateries
Then this morning I saw this:
“JACKSON, Miss. (WLBT) - People are being killed at a higher rate per capita in the state Capital City than any other major city in the U.S., according to a 3 On Your Side analysis of more than fifty municipalities across the country.
With 153 killings thus far in 2021, the homicide rate for Jackson is 99.5 per 100,000 residents, a rate that blazes past Memphis, St. Louis, and Baltimore.”
That murder rate puts it up there with some Latin American disaster zones
I think a lot of those Brexit questions are too emotional for some people to answer accurately, which skews the polling. Plenty will still be answering were you in favour of Brexit or is Brexit going well, rather than should we rejoin.
Rejoin would seem to have a lot of the same delivery problems that leave had back in 2015. It is nostalgic, unstable and ill defined, mostly relying on emotional connection. It would be another act of folly and self harm, so perhaps our brilliant electorate will actually choose it!
The problem for Rejoin will be the conditions for rejoining. It seems inconceivable for example we will get full access to the Single Market without Freedom of Movement and that's going to be the huge sticking point as it was six years ago.
None of the rest of it matters - as long as we want to control our own immigration policy and not allow open access to all EU citizens, we will be outside the Single Market.
As long as there is a large group of voters who (rightly) want to be in the SM, and a large group of voters - often the same people - who (rightly) think the SM should not have FoM in its present form there are no good outcomes possible.
I am 100% sure that if we had voted to remain - and then seen the EU behave as they did over vaccines - and prevarication as they have over Ukraine - and spend the last six years attempting to extract more and more to prop up the Euro and extract trade from the city - and we're ruled over by unpopular leaders trying to govern us through a shitstorm who were irrevocably associated with Remain- that we would be seeing just as much regret over the decision to Remain as we do here over leave.
This seems to me exactly right. The problem does not have a solution (yet anyway) for two big reasons.
Firstly the immediate reason that in 2016 there was no possible outcome which would command general consent, nor was there an available outcome that was rational. Leaving created a new problem. Remaining failed to solve the old problem.
Secondly, and still overlooked, because by 2016 the UK population had not, for 40 years, been asked for their wholehearted and informed consent bit by bit for a series of measures which altered the nature of how power and authority and sovereignty worked in the UK. The EU had formed in a way which could never be accepted by a huge chunk of the UK population, but which was a juggernaut we could not do without. This democratic deficit was the biggest policy failure since the war.
There is still no outcome that commands general consent, just as in 2015 and 2016.
Strong agree with the last part - and for that, Cameron has to take a large share of the blame for the way he designed the referendum in the first place.
Cameron committed an act of supreme constitutional vandalism with his ill-designed referendum.
It’s also astonishing that the public service let him get away with it.
They thought that Remain would win so it wouldn't matter.
No, it’s not. It’s grim. Real poverty here with a very thin veneer of tourism making it look ok
The downtown is a mess, at least by European standards
The difference between the America I lived in 15 years ago and the America I last visited just before lockdown is quite shocking.
The middle class barrier between ultra wealth and vast, "developing world" poverty of drugs and cardboard cities has thinned and thinned, to a point that goes a long way to explaining Trumpism.
I recently visited New York (and the USA) for the first time. It reminded me most of Cape Town. A lot of (mostly white) extreme wealth cheek by jowl with extreme (mostly black) poverty, and a swathe of people somewhere in between, in both senses.
The Brexit wave function collapsed when Lord Frost resigned.
It’s now merely a programme of administrative clear-up, policy subterfuge, and occasional performative jingo-ism for those remaining cretins who still believe in Boris.
I am 100% sure that if we had voted to remain - and then seen the EU behave as they did over vaccines - and prevarication as they have over Ukraine - and spend the last six years attempting to extract more and more to prop up the Euro and extract trade from the city - and we're ruled over by unpopular leaders trying to govern us through a shitstorm who were irrevocably associated with Remain- that we would be seeing just as much regret over the decision to Remain as we do here over leave.
This seems to me exactly right. The problem does not have a solution (yet anyway) for two big reasons.
Firstly the immediate reason that in 2016 there was no possible outcome which would command general consent, nor was there an available outcome that was rational. Leaving created a new problem. Remaining failed to solve the old problem.
Secondly, and still overlooked, because by 2016 the UK population had not, for 40 years, been asked for their wholehearted and informed consent bit by bit for a series of measures which altered the nature of how power and authority and sovereignty worked in the UK. The EU had formed in a way which could never be accepted by a huge chunk of the UK population, but which was a juggernaut we could not do without. This democratic deficit was the biggest policy failure since the war.
There is still no outcome that commands general consent, just as in 2015 and 2016.
Strong agree with the last part - and for that, Cameron has to take a large share of the blame for the way he designed the referendum in the first place.
Cameron committed an act of supreme constitutional vandalism with his ill-designed referendum.
It’s also astonishing that the public service let him get away with it.
They thought that Remain would win so it wouldn't matter.
I think a lot of those Brexit questions are too emotional for some people to answer accurately, which skews the polling. Plenty will still be answering were you in favour of Brexit or is Brexit going well, rather than should we rejoin.
Rejoin would seem to have a lot of the same delivery problems that leave had back in 2015. It is nostalgic, unstable and ill defined, mostly relying on emotional connection. It would be another act of folly and self harm, so perhaps our brilliant electorate will actually choose it!
The problem for Rejoin will be the conditions for rejoining. It seems inconceivable for example we will get full access to the Single Market without Freedom of Movement and that's going to be the huge sticking point as it was six years ago.
None of the rest of it matters - as long as we want to control our own immigration policy and not allow open access to all EU citizens, we will be outside the Single Market.
As long as there is a large group of voters who (rightly) want to be in the SM, and a large group of voters - often the same people - who (rightly) think the SM should not have FoM in its present form there are no good outcomes possible.
For Socialists the Cameron and Osborne government was worse than the current Boris and Sunak one as it was pursuing deeper spending cuts while this one has even increased spending.
Liberals however hate this government more than the Coalition, because of Brexit as well as the fact the latter included the LDs unlike this one
An interesting distortion of history - the Coalition supported measures to bring the public finances back under control after the disasters of the Brown era and the global financial crash of 2008. The recovery from that and the return of tax receipts helped get the deficit under control.
The reason the current Conservative administration is "hated" (your word, not mine) by Liberals and liberals is it is far more illiberal than its predecessors as can be seen in the legislation passed which continues to concentrate and centralise power within Whitehall and with Ministers in contrast to the Cameron period where MPs like Nick Hurd strongly supported the de-centralisation of power away from Whitehall and back to accountable local authorities.
Which does not defeat my point that Socialists hated the Cameron and Osborne government even more than this one at all, even if Liberals loathe this government more than Cameron's
I have put this to my Socialist friends. Anecdote would suggest that you are not anywhere remotely near accurate on that point.
I am, you only have to compare the views of a socialist like BJO on Boris and Starmer and Corbyn on here to those of liberals.
Out of curiosity, do you consider me to be a Socialist?
“What is the poverty rate in Natchez, Mississippi? The poverty rate in Natchez is 35.9%. One out of every 2.8 residents of Natchez lives in poverty.
“How many people in Natchez, Mississippi live in poverty? 5,339 of 14,855 Natchez residents reported income levels below the poverty line in the last year.
“How does the poverty rate in Natchez compare to the rest of Mississippi? The Poverty Rate across the state of Mississippi is 21.5%, meaning Natchez has a dramatically higher than average percentage of residents below the poverty line when compared to the rest of Mississippi.”
Wonder if poverty is calculated state by state, or nationally.
I’m pretty sure it’s done both ways
America is fascinating for many reasons but one is that you can come here and not see ANY of the social/crime issues if you are carefully steered (which tourism authorities will do. Of course
I spent last night in Jackson, the capital of MS, and we had lovely cocktails in an antebellum house and then dinner in a chic new restaurant and I fell boozily into bed thinking Well this is refreshing, a nice safe southern city, with great bars and eateries
Then this morning I saw this:
“JACKSON, Miss. (WLBT) - People are being killed at a higher rate per capita in the state Capital City than any other major city in the U.S., according to a 3 On Your Side analysis of more than fifty municipalities across the country.
With 153 killings thus far in 2021, the homicide rate for Jackson is 99.5 per 100,000 residents, a rate that blazes past Memphis, St. Louis, and Baltimore.”
That murder rate puts it up there with some Latin American disaster zones
Up to Spring 2018, Right and Wrong were nip and tuck with each other. (43 right, 44 wrong in mid May 2018). Since then, there's basically been a glacial shift to now 37 right, 49 wrong). Two blips- one at the start of Covid, the other at the vaccine wars. But otherwise, a very slow shift- a bit more than one percentage point a year. If one were being callous, it looks comparable with what you might expect from a simple model of the age profile of Leave/Remain voters and life expectancy data.
And that looks like a problem. There's a clear sense of the public thinking this is, on balance, a mistake. Baby Brexit has not endeared itself to peoples' hearts. But at the same time, there's nowhere near a mandate to reverse the policy, and nobody can really face doing that right now anyway.
It looks like a recipe for being stuck.
Being stuck is a logical necessity, once you accept that it is essential to be in the SM and essential not to have FOM. We were so stuck when we were in the EU that there had, for political reasons, to be a referendum and we are inevitably stuck now. As we would be if we had voted remain.
What the history of polling shows essentially is that it was wrong to be in, and wrong to be out. That this has come about it a past and historic policy failure of horrendous proportions.
Up to Spring 2018, Right and Wrong were nip and tuck with each other. (43 right, 44 wrong in mid May 2018). Since then, there's basically been a glacial shift to now 37 right, 49 wrong). Two blips- one at the start of Covid, the other at the vaccine wars. But otherwise, a very slow shift- a bit more than one percentage point a year. If one were being callous, it looks comparable with what you might expect from a simple model of the age profile of Leave/Remain voters and life expectancy data.
And that looks like a problem. There's a clear sense of the public thinking this is, on balance, a mistake. Baby Brexit has not endeared itself to peoples' hearts. But at the same time, there's nowhere near a mandate to reverse the policy, and nobody can really face doing that right now anyway.
It looks like a recipe for being stuck.
Yes. Excluding don’t knows, it’s 57/43. Wake me up when it’s 60/40.
The Brexit wave function collapsed when Lord Frost resigned.
It’s now merely a programme of administrative clear-up, policy subterfuge, and occasional performative jingo-ism for those remaining cretins who still believe in Boris.
Still fighting it out on Twitter
A thread on a remarkable speech by @DavidGHFrost in which he admits he blinked in the negotiations & that the PM misled people about the deal, seems oblivious to the damage it has done and has the nerve to portray himself as a Unionist despite risking it to get Brexit done 1/n https://twitter.com/DavidGHFrost/status/1519358622417006594
I think you need to ask how many people want another referendum.... And the answer will be very few people. About 10% Even if we did have another vote, few would like the likely terms on offer (free movement, euro, schengen etc), saying Brexit was a bad decision is not quite the same as support for rejoin. It has fallen off the agenda. I think that the EU has gone back to being an obscure issue that no one particularly cares about.
Not so, Darkage. A poll asked exactly that in November - 40% said yes, they would like another referendum. 33% said no, they wouldn't.
It's one of those issues that seems to have gone away because no political party is proposing it, but actually it'd probably be a real vote-winner if a party picked it up.
I think a lot of those Brexit questions are too emotional for some people to answer accurately, which skews the polling. Plenty will still be answering were you in favour of Brexit or is Brexit going well, rather than should we rejoin.
Rejoin would seem to have a lot of the same delivery problems that leave had back in 2015. It is nostalgic, unstable and ill defined, mostly relying on emotional connection. It would be another act of folly and self harm, so perhaps our brilliant electorate will actually choose it!
OTOH this is a day when Mr R-M has basically admitted that HMG have screwed up their preparations for Brexit and fucked up totally and are postponing some of it for the 4th time - to the degree that the ports are considering suing.
It'll soon be the 5th anniversary of the vote. A child born on Brexit Day will be at school very soon. Imagine if there were no school places, no school books, no trained teachers ...
Yes continuing on this path is harmful as well, probably more so.
We need to move towards a much closer, co-operative partnership but now that we have left that partnership can only be stable if we are outside the EU.
Yes, eventually. That much closer, co-operative partnership will be largely on the EU's terms, which won't be a comfortable place for a country that rhetorically thinks of itself as world-beating. I don't there is a market for a partnership right now from either the UK or the EU, but it is good to move on from 2016 and start to think about how we can get out of the mess.
Incredibly, Jackson’s murder rate of 99.5 per 100k makes it the 3rd most homicidal city IN THE WORLD - ahead of Ciudad Juarez, way ahead of Cape Town, equal with Caracas, behind only Acapulco and Tijuana
Moan away if you wish. But most of you don't know why you lost. Saying the same thing again isn't productive, and incidentally, Einstein always denied that quote.
Anyone who voted for it is a fool or a knave and probably both. Keep believing that. Keep believing that France will welcome us back with open arms. The referendum result could have been different, but the mindset of some Remainers were and remain their worst enemy.
That is such bullshit. it's quite easy to sell anything to anyone if your claims do not have to have any basis in fact. Before non political advertising was as lawless as political advertising people were told cigarettes made you sexy and were good for you.
The notion that because more people were persuaded by a pack of lies it therefore was a good wise or correct decision is demented.
Wait: are you saying that cigarettes aren't good for me?
Incredibly, Jackson’s murder rate of 99.5 per 100k makes it the 3rd most homicidal city IN THE WORLD - ahead of Ciudad Juarez, way ahead of Cape Town, equal with Caracas, behind only Acapulco and Tijuana
Up to Spring 2018, Right and Wrong were nip and tuck with each other. (43 right, 44 wrong in mid May 2018). Since then, there's basically been a glacial shift to now 37 right, 49 wrong). Two blips- one at the start of Covid, the other at the vaccine wars. But otherwise, a very slow shift- a bit more than one percentage point a year. If one were being callous, it looks comparable with what you might expect from a simple model of the age profile of Leave/Remain voters and life expectancy data.
And that looks like a problem. There's a clear sense of the public thinking this is, on balance, a mistake. Baby Brexit has not endeared itself to peoples' hearts. But at the same time, there's nowhere near a mandate to reverse the policy, and nobody can really face doing that right now anyway.
It looks like a recipe for being stuck.
Yes. Excluding don’t knows, it’s 57/43. Wake me up when it’s 60/40.
“What is the poverty rate in Natchez, Mississippi? The poverty rate in Natchez is 35.9%. One out of every 2.8 residents of Natchez lives in poverty.
“How many people in Natchez, Mississippi live in poverty? 5,339 of 14,855 Natchez residents reported income levels below the poverty line in the last year.
“How does the poverty rate in Natchez compare to the rest of Mississippi? The Poverty Rate across the state of Mississippi is 21.5%, meaning Natchez has a dramatically higher than average percentage of residents below the poverty line when compared to the rest of Mississippi.”
Wonder if poverty is calculated state by state, or nationally.
I’m pretty sure it’s done both ways
America is fascinating for many reasons but one is that you can come here and not see ANY of the social/crime issues if you are carefully steered (which tourism authorities will do. Of course
I spent last night in Jackson, the capital of MS, and we had lovely cocktails in an antebellum house and then dinner in a chic new restaurant and I fell boozily into bed thinking Well this is refreshing, a nice safe southern city, with great bars and eateries
Then this morning I saw this:
“JACKSON, Miss. (WLBT) - People are being killed at a higher rate per capita in the state Capital City than any other major city in the U.S., according to a 3 On Your Side analysis of more than fifty municipalities across the country.
With 153 killings thus far in 2021, the homicide rate for Jackson is 99.5 per 100,000 residents, a rate that blazes past Memphis, St. Louis, and Baltimore.”
That murder rate puts it up there with some Latin American disaster zones
Incredibly, Jackson’s murder rate of 99.5 per 100k makes it the 3rd most homicidal city IN THE WORLD - ahead of Ciudad Juarez, way ahead of Cape Town, equal with Caracas, behind only Acapulco and Tijuana
I think a lot of those Brexit questions are too emotional for some people to answer accurately, which skews the polling. Plenty will still be answering were you in favour of Brexit or is Brexit going well, rather than should we rejoin.
Rejoin would seem to have a lot of the same delivery problems that leave had back in 2015. It is nostalgic, unstable and ill defined, mostly relying on emotional connection. It would be another act of folly and self harm, so perhaps our brilliant electorate will actually choose it!
The problem for Rejoin will be the conditions for rejoining. It seems inconceivable for example we will get full access to the Single Market without Freedom of Movement and that's going to be the huge sticking point as it was six years ago.
None of the rest of it matters - as long as we want to control our own immigration policy and not allow open access to all EU citizens, we will be outside the Single Market.
As long as there is a large group of voters who (rightly) want to be in the SM, and a large group of voters - often the same people - who (rightly) think the SM should not have FoM in its present form there are no good outcomes possible.
Why rightly?
Because there is a perfectly decent case for the SM, although in its external protectionism was far from perfect, in its essence it was a decent example of Ricardianism along with a reduction in friction. So 'rightly'.
Because humans are not a commodity, and FOM between economies at very different levels of development has huge cultural and demographic downsides, and a high political price. So 'rightly'.
The nutters on the bus go Brexit Brexit Brexit Brexit Brexit Brexit Brexit Brexit Brexit The nutters on the bus go Brexit Brexit Brexit All through the town
Boris lied about Brexit, and then he lied about having an oven ready deal. He lied to the Northern Irish about a border down the Irish Sea.
As was predicted, we see a decline in British export performance, a decline in FDI, a decline in the sterling, and instability to the Good Friday Agreement.
It’s an astonishing legacy, and one has to wonder, when he is finally expelled, how he will psychologically make sense of it.
Incredibly, Jackson’s murder rate of 99.5 per 100k makes it the 3rd most homicidal city IN THE WORLD - ahead of Ciudad Juarez, way ahead of Cape Town, equal with Caracas, behind only Acapulco and Tijuana
The arrest of British Virgin Islands Premier Andrew Fahie on drugs trafficking and money laundering charges is an appalling development which demonstrates the importance of the Commission of Inquiry into governance on the Territory. My statement here 👇
I think a lot of those Brexit questions are too emotional for some people to answer accurately, which skews the polling. Plenty will still be answering were you in favour of Brexit or is Brexit going well, rather than should we rejoin.
Rejoin would seem to have a lot of the same delivery problems that leave had back in 2015. It is nostalgic, unstable and ill defined, mostly relying on emotional connection. It would be another act of folly and self harm, so perhaps our brilliant electorate will actually choose it!
The problem for Rejoin will be the conditions for rejoining. It seems inconceivable for example we will get full access to the Single Market without Freedom of Movement and that's going to be the huge sticking point as it was six years ago.
None of the rest of it matters - as long as we want to control our own immigration policy and not allow open access to all EU citizens, we will be outside the Single Market.
As long as there is a large group of voters who (rightly) want to be in the SM, and a large group of voters - often the same people - who (rightly) think the SM should not have FoM in its present form there are no good outcomes possible.
Why rightly?
Because there is a perfectly decent case for the SM, although in its external protectionism was far from perfect, in its essence it was a decent example of Ricardianism along with a reduction in friction. So 'rightly'.
Because humans are not a commodity, and FOM between economies at very different levels of development has huge cultural and demographic downsides, and a high political price. So 'rightly'.
FOM does not imply that “humans are a commodity”. Bizarre you should think so.
The nutters on the bus go Brexit Brexit Brexit Brexit Brexit Brexit Brexit Brexit Brexit The nutters on the bus go Brexit Brexit Brexit All through the town
Don't they just. In this thread in particular.
One of the good features of this thread is that it has rather stopped being about Johnsonian Brexit, Right or Wrong? (when Rees Mogg is describing it as a cluster fuck that argument ends)
Instead it is about what that realisation is doing to voters, and were the trend takes us by 2024/5.
Boris lied about Brexit, and then he lied about having an oven ready deal. He lied to the Northern Irish about a border down the Irish Sea.
As was predicted, we see a decline in British export performance, a decline in FDI, a decline in the sterling, and instability to the Good Friday Agreement.
It’s an astonishing legacy, and one has to wonder, when he is finally expelled, how he will psychologically make sense of it.
So Brexit is to blame for Sterling's decline (that's been happening for over 100 years) is it? Nothing to do with the fact that latterly we've been printing money faster than they can cut down trees.
YouGov are the only pollster to correctly weigh geographical sub-samples.
London Lab 50% Con 21% LD 12% Grn 8%
Rest of South Con 41% Lab 33% LD 14% Grn 7% Ref 3%
Midlands and Wales Con 40% Lab 38% LD 9% Ref 5% Grn 4%
North Lab 51% Con 29% Grn 8% LD 8% Ref 3%
Scotland SNP 47% Lab 23% Con 14% LD 7% Grn 3%
(YouGov / The Times; Sample Size: 1779; Fieldwork: 26th - 27th April 2022)
Still Conservatives lead in the Midlands and South, unless that changes and he also makes more progress in Scotland, Starmer is not going to get a majority even if he does win London and the North convincingly
Boris lied about Brexit, and then he lied about having an oven ready deal. He lied to the Northern Irish about a border down the Irish Sea.
As was predicted, we see a decline in British export performance, a decline in FDI, a decline in the sterling, and instability to the Good Friday Agreement.
It’s an astonishing legacy, and one has to wonder, when he is finally expelled, how he will psychologically make sense of it.
I suspect he will ignore it and flit his butterfly brain to the next thing.
For Socialists the Cameron and Osborne government was worse than the current Boris and Sunak one as it was pursuing deeper spending cuts while this one has even increased spending.
Liberals however hate this government more than the Coalition, because of Brexit as well as the fact the latter included the LDs unlike this one
An interesting distortion of history - the Coalition supported measures to bring the public finances back under control after the disasters of the Brown era and the global financial crash of 2008. The recovery from that and the return of tax receipts helped get the deficit under control.
The reason the current Conservative administration is "hated" (your word, not mine) by Liberals and liberals is it is far more illiberal than its predecessors as can be seen in the legislation passed which continues to concentrate and centralise power within Whitehall and with Ministers in contrast to the Cameron period where MPs like Nick Hurd strongly supported the de-centralisation of power away from Whitehall and back to accountable local authorities.
Which does not defeat my point that Socialists hated the Cameron and Osborne government even more than this one at all, even if Liberals loathe this government more than Cameron's
I have put this to my Socialist friends. Anecdote would suggest that you are not anywhere remotely near accurate on that point.
I am, you only have to compare the views of a socialist like BJO on Boris and Starmer and Corbyn on here to those of liberals.
Out of curiosity, do you consider me to be a Socialist?
Boris lied about Brexit, and then he lied about having an oven ready deal. He lied to the Northern Irish about a border down the Irish Sea.
As was predicted, we see a decline in British export performance, a decline in FDI, a decline in the sterling, and instability to the Good Friday Agreement.
It’s an astonishing legacy, and one has to wonder, when he is finally expelled, how he will psychologically make sense of it.
So Brexit is to blame for Sterling's decline (that's been happening for over 100 years) is it? Nothing to do with the fact that latterly we've been printing money faster than they can cut down trees.
A decline in export performance and FDI will themselves cause a decline in currency value, ceteris paribas.
“What is the poverty rate in Natchez, Mississippi? The poverty rate in Natchez is 35.9%. One out of every 2.8 residents of Natchez lives in poverty.
“How many people in Natchez, Mississippi live in poverty? 5,339 of 14,855 Natchez residents reported income levels below the poverty line in the last year.
“How does the poverty rate in Natchez compare to the rest of Mississippi? The Poverty Rate across the state of Mississippi is 21.5%, meaning Natchez has a dramatically higher than average percentage of residents below the poverty line when compared to the rest of Mississippi.”
Wonder if poverty is calculated state by state, or nationally.
I’m pretty sure it’s done both ways
America is fascinating for many reasons but one is that you can come here and not see ANY of the social/crime issues if you are carefully steered (which tourism authorities will do. Of course
I spent last night in Jackson, the capital of MS, and we had lovely cocktails in an antebellum house and then dinner in a chic new restaurant and I fell boozily into bed thinking Well this is refreshing, a nice safe southern city, with great bars and eateries
Then this morning I saw this:
“JACKSON, Miss. (WLBT) - People are being killed at a higher rate per capita in the state Capital City than any other major city in the U.S., according to a 3 On Your Side analysis of more than fifty municipalities across the country.
With 153 killings thus far in 2021, the homicide rate for Jackson is 99.5 per 100,000 residents, a rate that blazes past Memphis, St. Louis, and Baltimore.”
That murder rate puts it up there with some Latin American disaster zones
Leave's problem was that winning was incredibly difficult. Remain's problem is that Leave only had to win once.
No government is ever going to go back to a decade of negotiation with the EU to rejoin, and the EU is never going to want us back in any case.
I’m not so sure about the last point. I admit both premises are unlikely, though, and the ideological project for Britain must be how to engage with the EU without actually joining.
For Socialists the Cameron and Osborne government was worse than the current Boris and Sunak one as it was pursuing deeper spending cuts while this one has even increased spending.
Liberals however hate this government more than the Coalition, because of Brexit as well as the fact the latter included the LDs unlike this one
An interesting distortion of history - the Coalition supported measures to bring the public finances back under control after the disasters of the Brown era and the global financial crash of 2008. The recovery from that and the return of tax receipts helped get the deficit under control.
The reason the current Conservative administration is "hated" (your word, not mine) by Liberals and liberals is it is far more illiberal than its predecessors as can be seen in the legislation passed which continues to concentrate and centralise power within Whitehall and with Ministers in contrast to the Cameron period where MPs like Nick Hurd strongly supported the de-centralisation of power away from Whitehall and back to accountable local authorities.
Which does not defeat my point that Socialists hated the Cameron and Osborne government even more than this one at all, even if Liberals loathe this government more than Cameron's
I have put this to my Socialist friends. Anecdote would suggest that you are not anywhere remotely near accurate on that point.
I am, you only have to compare the views of a socialist like BJO on Boris and Starmer and Corbyn on here to those of liberals.
TBF I am a Socialist and I despised Cameron and May more than levelling up Socialist Boris!!!
Seriously though the deliberate "were in this together" (not) of the austerity years was everything I despise of the Tories. By comparison the Town Deals levelling up monies are at least trying to make amends.
My own town has had £millions from Boris more than from any Labour Govt. The illusion of Lab, particularly under SKS, being on our side is broken, probably forever, definitely whilst SKS is leader
Incredibly, Jackson’s murder rate of 99.5 per 100k makes it the 3rd most homicidal city IN THE WORLD - ahead of Ciudad Juarez, way ahead of Cape Town, equal with Caracas, behind only Acapulco and Tijuana
Isn't Mississippi already one of the most Red states in America, with no Democrats in any State-wide positions?
I mean there is a real sense the country is going to the dogs, crime is surging, inflation is rampant, Biden is a demented fool and Harris is a woketastic disaster
The republicans would walk it if it weren’t for trump being a loathsome bigoted crazy-ass narcissistic teetotal creepaloid weirdo
But I begin to wonder if the republicans can win even if trump is the candidate: ie trump can win
What middle Americans crave - I sense - is a no nonsense hard arsed right winger to get a handle on crime and woke and the rest of the diseased lefty shit but they DON’T want Trump. They want a kind of Giuliani (as he was, not how he is)
Boris lied about Brexit, and then he lied about having an oven ready deal. He lied to the Northern Irish about a border down the Irish Sea.
As was predicted, we see a decline in British export performance, a decline in FDI, a decline in the sterling, and instability to the Good Friday Agreement.
It’s an astonishing legacy, and one has to wonder, when he is finally expelled, how he will psychologically make sense of it.
I suspect he will ignore it and flit his butterfly brain to the next thing.
By coincidence, that's exactly what I do when PB's remainiac contingent start doing their pub bore act.
Boris lied about Brexit, and then he lied about having an oven ready deal. He lied to the Northern Irish about a border down the Irish Sea.
As was predicted, we see a decline in British export performance, a decline in FDI, a decline in the sterling, and instability to the Good Friday Agreement.
It’s an astonishing legacy, and one has to wonder, when he is finally expelled, how he will psychologically make sense of it.
I doubt he will care. I expect him to be too busy looking for money-making opportunities from his time as PM
“What is the poverty rate in Natchez, Mississippi? The poverty rate in Natchez is 35.9%. One out of every 2.8 residents of Natchez lives in poverty.
“How many people in Natchez, Mississippi live in poverty? 5,339 of 14,855 Natchez residents reported income levels below the poverty line in the last year.
“How does the poverty rate in Natchez compare to the rest of Mississippi? The Poverty Rate across the state of Mississippi is 21.5%, meaning Natchez has a dramatically higher than average percentage of residents below the poverty line when compared to the rest of Mississippi.”
Wonder if poverty is calculated state by state, or nationally.
I’m pretty sure it’s done both ways
America is fascinating for many reasons but one is that you can come here and not see ANY of the social/crime issues if you are carefully steered (which tourism authorities will do. Of course
I spent last night in Jackson, the capital of MS, and we had lovely cocktails in an antebellum house and then dinner in a chic new restaurant and I fell boozily into bed thinking Well this is refreshing, a nice safe southern city, with great bars and eateries
Then this morning I saw this:
“JACKSON, Miss. (WLBT) - People are being killed at a higher rate per capita in the state Capital City than any other major city in the U.S., according to a 3 On Your Side analysis of more than fifty municipalities across the country.
With 153 killings thus far in 2021, the homicide rate for Jackson is 99.5 per 100,000 residents, a rate that blazes past Memphis, St. Louis, and Baltimore.”
That murder rate puts it up there with some Latin American disaster zones
Leave's problem was that winning was incredibly difficult. Remain's problem is that Leave only had to win once.
No government is ever going to go back to a decade of negotiation with the EU to rejoin, and the EU is never going to want us back in any case.
Yup. Picture it - a government behind in the polls tries to negotiate entry to the EU, or even just the EEA, while the Tory opposition highlights all the issues with it and says it will leave again on taking office. We’d be vetoed.
We’re not going back for many years, if ever. But we might join enough peripheral, linked, things to count as “half in” like we used to be “half out”.
Comments
If Depp wins, what then? Do we have a tiebreaker chaired by a French judge or something?
But it's all bullshit to cover up for the fact he advocates free private schooling on the taxes and rates for himself and his mates - just call then C of E schools and then keep out the riff-raff. Only select for the middle class parents. Job done, especially as it's the rest of us who pay for this subsidy junkie's free private selective schools.
Conservative, my arse.
https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/news/most-brits-would-rejoin-eu-if-new-vote-held-survey-shows/
It's one of those issues that seems to have gone away because no political party is proposing it, but actually it'd probably be a real vote-winner if a party picked it up.
I suspect there are other aspects of the way this Government comports itself which would annoy socialists far more than anything "the Quad" of Cameron, Clegg, Osborne and Alexander ever proposed.
For him Brexit has become a raging success, without Brexit it is unlikely he would have reached the top of the greasy pole.
Ms Heard, on the other hand, seems to have assumed that this would be a straight rerun of London, and has been caught rather off guard.
So, yes, I think he wins this one. But I am equally sure that we are not seeing anything like the real Mr Depp. We are seeing a Mr Depp designed for jury (and public) consumption.
The notion that because more people were persuaded by a pack of lies it therefore was a good wise or correct decision is demented.
Spookily there's lots of b&w footage of the trials on youtube.
Rejoin would seem to have a lot of the same delivery problems that leave had back in 2015. It is nostalgic, unstable and ill defined, mostly relying on emotional connection. It would be another act of folly and self harm, so perhaps our brilliant electorate will actually choose it!
The downtown is a mess, at least by European standards
not content with this
“The remaining import controls on EU goods will no longer be introduced this year – saving British businesses up to £1bn in annual costs” @Jacob_Rees_Mogg admits the Brexit deal will cost £1bn a year https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-statements/detail/2022-04-28/hcws796
he followed up with this
Implementing Brexit deal we negotiated “an act of self harm” says Rees-Mogg. https://twitter.com/huffpostuk/status/1519738324797345794
Well, he can put his feet up (again) now
UK ports consider legal action after Rees-Mogg delays Brexit controls https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/apr/28/uk-sea-ports-consider-legal-action-delay-brexit-controls-jacob-rees-mogg?CMP=share_btn_tw
Is it not the supporting witness statements that might be the telling blow? Eg The attending police officer saying that he didn’t consider Ms Heard a victim of domestic abuse so he didn’t give her a pamphlet.
It'll soon be the 5th anniversary of the vote. A child born on Brexit Day will be at school very soon. Imagine if there were no school places, no school books, no trained teachers ...
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/apr/28/uk-sea-ports-consider-legal-action-delay-brexit-controls-jacob-rees-mogg
The poverty rate in Natchez is 35.9%. One out of every 2.8 residents of Natchez lives in poverty.
“How many people in Natchez, Mississippi live in poverty?
5,339 of 14,855 Natchez residents reported income levels below the poverty line in the last year.
“How does the poverty rate in Natchez compare to the rest of Mississippi?
The Poverty Rate across the state of Mississippi is 21.5%, meaning Natchez has a dramatically higher than average percentage of residents below the poverty line when compared to the rest of Mississippi.”
And Mississippi is the poorest state in the USA
https://www.welfareinfo.org/poverty-rate/mississippi/natchez
Firstly the immediate reason that in 2016 there was no possible outcome which would command general consent, nor was there an available outcome that was rational. Leaving created a new problem. Remaining failed to solve the old problem.
Secondly, and still overlooked, because by 2016 the UK population had not, for 40 years, been asked for their wholehearted and informed consent bit by bit for a series of measures which altered the nature of how power and authority and sovereignty worked in the UK. The EU had formed in a way which could never be accepted by a huge chunk of the UK population, but which was a juggernaut we could not do without. This democratic deficit was the biggest policy failure since the war.
There is still no outcome that commands general consent, just as in 2015 and 2016.
None of the rest of it matters - as long as we want to control our own immigration policy and not allow open access to all EU citizens, we will be outside the Single Market.
The middle class barrier between ultra wealth and vast, "developing world" poverty of drugs and cardboard cities has thinned and thinned, to a point that goes a long way to explaining Trumpism.
We need to move towards a much closer, co-operative partnership but now that we have left that partnership can only be stable if we are outside the EU.
Prime Minister Basil Brush it is then.
Boom boom.
https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/
Up to Spring 2018, Right and Wrong were nip and tuck with each other. (43 right, 44 wrong in mid May 2018). Since then, there's basically been a glacial shift to now 37 right, 49 wrong). Two blips- one at the start of Covid, the other at the vaccine wars. But otherwise, a very slow shift- a bit more than one percentage point a year. If one were being callous, it looks comparable with what you might expect from a simple model of the age profile of Leave/Remain voters and life expectancy data.
And that looks like a problem. There's a clear sense of the public thinking this is, on balance, a mistake. Baby Brexit has not endeared itself to peoples' hearts. But at the same time, there's nowhere near a mandate to reverse the policy, and nobody can really face doing that right now anyway.
It looks like a recipe for being stuck.
It’s also astonishing that the public service let him get away with it.
America is fascinating for many reasons but one is that you can come here and not see ANY of the social/crime issues if you are carefully steered (which tourism authorities will do. Of course
I spent last night in Jackson, the capital of MS, and we had lovely cocktails in an antebellum house and then dinner in a chic new restaurant and I fell boozily into bed thinking Well this is refreshing, a nice safe southern city, with great bars and eateries
Then this morning I saw this:
“JACKSON, Miss. (WLBT) - People are being killed at a higher rate per capita in the state Capital City than any other major city in the U.S., according to a 3 On Your Side analysis of more than fifty municipalities across the country.
With 153 killings thus far in 2021, the homicide rate for Jackson is 99.5 per 100,000 residents, a rate that blazes past Memphis, St. Louis, and Baltimore.”
That murder rate puts it up there with some Latin American disaster zones
https://www.wlbt.com/2022/01/01/analysis-jacksons-rate-killings-per-capita-ranks-highest-us/
It’s now merely a programme of administrative clear-up, policy subterfuge, and occasional performative jingo-ism for those remaining cretins who still believe in Boris.
Insanity.
Unbelievable how grim it was, far worse than a Scottish council estate.
What the history of polling shows essentially is that it was wrong to be in, and wrong to be out. That this has come about it a past and historic policy failure of horrendous proportions.
Wake me up when it’s 60/40.
A thread on a remarkable speech by @DavidGHFrost in which he admits he blinked in the negotiations & that the PM misled people about the deal, seems oblivious to the damage it has done and has the nerve to portray himself as a Unionist despite risking it to get Brexit done 1/n https://twitter.com/DavidGHFrost/status/1519358622417006594
https://worldpopulationreview.com/world-city-rankings/most-violent-cities-in-the-world
Trump is going to win in 2024
London
Lab 50%
Con 21%
LD 12%
Grn 8%
Rest of South
Con 41%
Lab 33%
LD 14%
Grn 7%
Ref 3%
Midlands and Wales
Con 40%
Lab 38%
LD 9%
Ref 5%
Grn 4%
North
Lab 51%
Con 29%
Grn 8%
LD 8%
Ref 3%
Scotland
SNP 47%
Lab 23%
Con 14%
LD 7%
Grn 3%
(YouGov / The Times; Sample Size: 1779; Fieldwork: 26th - 27th April 2022)
Because humans are not a commodity, and FOM between economies at very different levels of development has huge cultural and demographic downsides, and a high political price. So 'rightly'.
He lied to the Northern Irish about a border down the Irish Sea.
As was predicted, we see a decline in British export performance, a decline in FDI, a decline in the sterling, and instability to the Good Friday Agreement.
It’s an astonishing legacy, and one has to wonder, when he is finally expelled, how he will psychologically make sense of it.
Trump needs Pennsylvania and Wisconsin to win, Mississippi is already firmly in his column
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/foreign-secretary-statement-on-bvi-premier-arrest
Instead it is about what that realisation is doing to voters, and were the trend takes us by 2024/5.
No government is ever going to go back to a decade of negotiation with the EU to rejoin, and the EU is never going to want us back in any case.
I admit both premises are unlikely, though, and the ideological project for Britain must be how to engage with the EU without actually joining.
Seriously though the deliberate "were in this together" (not) of the austerity years was everything I despise of the Tories. By comparison the Town Deals levelling up monies are at least trying to make amends.
My own town has had £millions from Boris more than from any Labour Govt. The illusion of Lab, particularly under SKS, being on our side is broken, probably forever, definitely whilst SKS is leader
The republicans would walk it if it weren’t for trump being a loathsome bigoted crazy-ass narcissistic teetotal creepaloid weirdo
But I begin to wonder if the republicans can win even if trump is the candidate: ie trump can win
What middle Americans crave - I sense - is a no nonsense hard arsed right winger to get a handle on crime and woke and the rest of the diseased lefty shit but they DON’T want Trump. They want a kind of Giuliani (as he was, not how he is)
Is it, essentially, still 2019 or something in Nuneaton?
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/apr/25/no-london-shooting-deaths-in-six-months-as-police-stifle-gun-trade
We’re not going back for many years, if ever. But we might join enough peripheral, linked, things to count as “half in” like we used to be “half out”.