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A poll lead for the Tories in March? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,690
edited March 2022 in General
imageA poll lead for the Tories in March? – politicalbetting.com

Tonight in London at the headquarters of the Smarkets betting exchange there will be the PB 18th birthday party – the first gathering for several years. It is being hosted by Smarkets as part of a big effort by the firm to establish itself as a leading political bookmaker alongside all its other activities.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Doubtful
  • Options
    Gary_BurtonGary_Burton Posts: 737
    One or two Tory leads are possible, possibly most likely with opinium.
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    londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,199
    Not really that bothered with polls at the moment!
  • Options

    Not really that bothered with polls at the moment!

    Lead or no lead, its utterly irrelevant. Unless you're looking to win a wager, in which case my money would be on yes but it couldn't matter less either way.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,987
    Good from Starmer.
    Specific people being raised for sanctioning.
  • Options
    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited March 2022
    FPT : This is a bit of a concerning backpedalling from the rhetoric yesterday, from Lavrov. Yesterday he completely ruled it out, suggesting a weakening of Putin's authority. Now he's saying it could be both nuclear and destructive. The threats are back on, but still slightly back from Putin's original rhetoric, with the more negative "destructive" also indicating potential connotations for Putin.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10568685/Russias-foreign-minister-warns-world-war-NUCLEAR-destructive.html

    This is a bit concerning, because these movements on such high-stakes rhetoric suggest to me there could be a power struggle going on.
  • Options
    Interesting tone to PMQs. Big Dog is defending the rights of Russian oligarchs to keep washing money through London. He keeps saying "here's how we're leading the way" without actually doing so.
  • Options

    Interesting tone to PMQs. Big Dog is defending the rights of Russian oligarchs to keep washing money through London. He keeps saying "here's how we're leading the way" without actually doing so.

    Russian's being stupid enough to put their money into the UK (and the USA and EU too) strengthens British (and US etc) sanctions, it doesn't weaken them.

    Them putting their money into our jurisdiction is the way we can then access those funds in order to sanction them. If they weren't in our jurisdiction, then our sanctions would be having considerably less impact than they really are.

    The FT had a good explainer recently as to why even liquid Russian assets as well as hard assets are getting caught up now in sanctions: https://mobile.twitter.com/FT/status/1498072586399399937
  • Options
    BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489

    Kevin Schofield
    @KevinASchofield
    ·
    2h
    EXCL: Former shadow chancellor John McDonnell is set to lose the Labour whip if he goes ahead with a planned appearance at a Stop The War rally in London tonight.

    Did he put his name to the StW letter and then take it off?

    Are we expecting many to attend?
  • Options
    Blackford making an excellent point and in the right tone
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    eekeek Posts: 24,997

    dixiedean said:

    Good from Starmer.
    Specific people being raised for sanctioning.

    Odd that Johnson has again dug his heels in. Clearly too many friends have too many shadows that they don't want exposing.
    Bozo protecting his mates isn't Odd - it's surely expected.

    Mind you I wouldn't be adding names without a valid reason in case I screwed up.
  • Options
    BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,454
    Very interesting, and comprehensible for non-finance people like me, article on the impact the Fed and ECB could have on the Russian economy. Could be utterly devastating. Hope, then?

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/02/how-russian-sanctions-work/622940/

    "Central-bank sanctions are a weapon so devastating, in fact, that the only question is whether they might do more damage than Western governments might wish. They could potentially bankrupt the entire Russian banking system and push the ruble into worthlessness."
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    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,797
    I've not kept up with all the discussions on PB because of work. But two things have come in to my mind.

    1. Russia will probably win- in the sense that they will be successful in invading Ukraine. They've advanced through a large part of Ukraine in a week. In any normal circumstances (where the opposing side does not control the narrative about the war) it would look like a cakewalk. The danger is that by focusing on well publicised errors we convince ourselves that Russia aren't going to win. They are, they always were. We shouldn't get too disappointed if they eventually do.

    2. The problem will come for Russia when they do win. What then? We established yesterday that support for Pro Russian parties was about 16% in the most recent parliamentary election (2019). By hiving off Crimea and the Donbass, Putin has reduced the part of Ukraine favourable to him to a small minority, and the invasion including the attacks on civilians is hardly going to increase this number. How could that ever be the basis of a legitimate government in Ukraine?

    I would say that the military losses, financial sanctions and global isolation are just the very beginning of Putins problems.

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    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,556

    FPT : This is a bit of a concerning backpedalling from the rhetoric yesterday, from Lavrov. Yesterday he completely ruled it out, suggesting a weakening of Putin's authority. Now he's saying it could be both nuclear and destructive. The threats are back on, but still slightly back from Putin's original rhetoric, with the more negative "destructive" also indicating potential connotations for Putin.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10568685/Russias-foreign-minister-warns-world-war-NUCLEAR-destructive.html

    This is a bit concerning, because these movements on such high-stakes rhetoric suggest to me there could be a power struggle going on.

    The other issue it raises is this. Russia is feeling free to mention the nuclear option among the things it might do if...

    Will there come a point at which the west, in the form of USA, says to Russia: we will place that same threat on the table unless you desist from X within Y days; or alternatively do so if you do Z now or ever.



  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,266

    Very interesting, and comprehensible for non-finance people like me, article on the impact the Fed and ECB could have on the Russian economy. Could be utterly devastating. Hope, then?

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/02/how-russian-sanctions-work/622940/

    "Central-bank sanctions are a weapon so devastating, in fact, that the only question is whether they might do more damage than Western governments might wish. They could potentially bankrupt the entire Russian banking system and push the ruble into worthlessness."

    Warner in Telegraph is floating the idea that RU central bank could actually subtly engineer hyperinflation to help move things along as it were.
  • Options

    Blackford making an excellent point and in the right tone

    And now a second one. For all that Big Dog beats his chest and says "we are leading", the facts show the opposite. We must do more on freezing dodgy russian money being laundered and more to allow refugees to flee here.

    On the latter, that it took 4 attempts for Patel to even open an offer to British resident Ukranians to allow them to have their siblings take refuge with them is a shameful misread of the public mood.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,987
    eek said:

    dixiedean said:

    Good from Starmer.
    Specific people being raised for sanctioning.

    Odd that Johnson has again dug his heels in. Clearly too many friends have too many shadows that they don't want exposing.
    Bozo protecting his mates isn't Odd - it's surely expected.

    Mind you I wouldn't be adding names without a valid reason in case I screwed up.
    Presumably that's why it stopped at two.
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,047

    Very interesting, and comprehensible for non-finance people like me, article on the impact the Fed and ECB could have on the Russian economy. Could be utterly devastating. Hope, then?

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/02/how-russian-sanctions-work/622940/

    "Central-bank sanctions are a weapon so devastating, in fact, that the only question is whether they might do more damage than Western governments might wish. They could potentially bankrupt the entire Russian banking system and push the ruble into worthlessness."

    Warner in Telegraph is floating the idea that RU central bank could actually subtly engineer hyperinflation to help move things along as it were.
    Self sabotage within Russia is just another possibility we need to consider.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,315
    BigRich said:

    Kevin Schofield
    @KevinASchofield
    ·
    2h
    EXCL: Former shadow chancellor John McDonnell is set to lose the Labour whip if he goes ahead with a planned appearance at a Stop The War rally in London tonight.

    Did he put his name to the StW letter and then take it off?

    Are we expecting many to attend?
    Bear in mind that "Russian troops out!" is now more prominent on their propaganda than "no to NATO expansion" so could be decent numbers on the basis of the former.
  • Options
    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited March 2022
    algarkirk said:

    FPT : This is a bit of a concerning backpedalling from the rhetoric yesterday, from Lavrov. Yesterday he completely ruled it out, suggesting a weakening of Putin's authority. Now he's saying it could be both nuclear and destructive. The threats are back on, but still slightly back from Putin's original rhetoric, with the more negative "destructive" also indicating potential connotations for Putin.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10568685/Russias-foreign-minister-warns-world-war-NUCLEAR-destructive.html

    This is a bit concerning, because these movements on such high-stakes rhetoric suggest to me there could be a power struggle going on.

    The other issue it raises is this. Russia is feeling free to mention the nuclear option among the things it might do if...

    Will there come a point at which the west, in the form of USA, says to Russia: we will place that same threat on the table unless you desist from X within Y days; or alternatively do so if you do Z now or ever.



    I don't see the West issuing any nuclear ultimatums at the moment, which I think is sensible. That would only come if Russia made a threat against NATO countries distinct from a threat about military interference, I would say, which I can't see happening at the moment.

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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,966
    eek said:

    dixiedean said:

    Good from Starmer.
    Specific people being raised for sanctioning.

    Odd that Johnson has again dug his heels in. Clearly too many friends have too many shadows that they don't want exposing.
    Bozo protecting his mates isn't Odd - it's surely expected.

    Mind you I wouldn't be adding names without a valid reason in case I screwed up.
    In Parliament at least Starmer can do this and the only damage to him would be reputational if he screws up. He cannot be sued by anyone he might slander. And Newspapers can then report this so long as they are only reporting Starmer's claims, not making any additional claims themselves.
  • Options

    Blackford making an excellent point and in the right tone

    And now a second one. For all that Big Dog beats his chest and says "we are leading", the facts show the opposite. We must do more on freezing dodgy russian money being laundered and more to allow refugees to flee here.

    On the latter, that it took 4 attempts for Patel to even open an offer to British resident Ukranians to allow them to have their siblings take refuge with them is a shameful misread of the public mood.
    The facts show that the UK is leading the way, and the whole West is moving forward to the entire West's credit, in sanctions. Sanctions that started off mild are now globally amongst the toughest the world has ever seen.

    I agree fully that we should be doing more regarding those fleeing war.
  • Options
    MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594
    Sandpit said:

    Lovely moment at the start of PMQs

    The house all stand and applaud the attendance of Ukraine’s Ambassador

    That was lovely to watch, as is the packed house wearing Ukranian colours, including the Speaker.
    Virtue signalling b*ll*cks

  • Options
    MISTY said:

    Sandpit said:

    Lovely moment at the start of PMQs

    The house all stand and applaud the attendance of Ukraine’s Ambassador

    That was lovely to watch, as is the packed house wearing Ukranian colours, including the Speaker.
    Virtue signalling b*ll*cks

    Shameful response
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,760
    Per @fpleitgenCNN, the Russian Central Bank has suspended transfers from the accounts of non-residents abroad.

    https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1498996144663412740?s=20&t=-MfFCZAfrVBbcTk8VUzHKg
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,997

    Blackford making an excellent point and in the right tone

    And now a second one. For all that Big Dog beats his chest and says "we are leading", the facts show the opposite. We must do more on freezing dodgy russian money being laundered and more to allow refugees to flee here.

    On the latter, that it took 4 attempts for Patel to even open an offer to British resident Ukranians to allow them to have their siblings take refuge with them is a shameful misread of the public mood.
    Is it? It's a shameful misreading of the mood of the people I know and on here but is it a complete misreading of the mood of the nation as a whole?

    The Tory party are for reasons I don't grasp breaching the the converted while scaring (more accurately horrifying) potential voters away without realising
  • Options
    MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594

    MISTY said:

    Sandpit said:

    Lovely moment at the start of PMQs

    The house all stand and applaud the attendance of Ukraine’s Ambassador

    That was lovely to watch, as is the packed house wearing Ukranian colours, including the Speaker.
    Virtue signalling b*ll*cks

    Bullshit.

    Signalling your support for allies who are literally fighting for their freedom matters.

    Morale matters.

    Symbolism matters.
    No they don't. As Darkage says, Putin is probably going to win at, which makes these gestures empty nothings.
  • Options
    MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,448
    @Cyclefree

    One for you...

    https://www.ft.com/content/bfea0069-4143-4e4b-accb-9712ce95a282

    Credit Suisse asks investors to destroy documents linked to oligarch and tycoon yacht loans

    Swiss bank issues legal request to stem information leaks after FT story on lending unit
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,988
    Shouldn't refer to the PM as a dog.

    Dogs are renowned for their loyalty.
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    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    Sandpit said:

    Lovely moment at the start of PMQs

    The house all stand and applaud the attendance of Ukraine’s Ambassador

    That was lovely to watch, as is the packed house wearing Ukranian colours, including the Speaker.
    Virtue signalling b*ll*cks

    Bullshit.

    Signalling your support for allies who are literally fighting for their freedom matters.

    Morale matters.

    Symbolism matters.
    No they don't. As Darkage says, Putin is probably going to win at, which makes these gestures empty nothings.
    Darkage is wrong.

    Your mate Trump who called this genius is wrong too.

    These gestures, backed up by hard munitions like NLAWs and hard sanctions on finance etc, absolutely are not empty.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Sandpit said:

    MISTY said:

    Sandpit said:

    Lovely moment at the start of PMQs

    The house all stand and applaud the attendance of Ukraine’s Ambassador

    That was lovely to watch, as is the packed house wearing Ukranian colours, including the Speaker.
    Virtue signalling b*ll*cks

    As I keep saying, this sort of thing will be on the news in Ukraine tonight.

    One man’s virtue signalling b*ll*cks, is another country’s morale-boosting show of support.
    Sometimes it is really pleasing to be able to signal that you have virtue....
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    Ukraine fighting back

    olexander scherba🇺🇦
    @olex_scherba

    Reports of UA going in counterattack. The RU-occupied Horlivka is liberated.

    #UkraineRussiaWar #ukrainekicksass
    12:21 PM · Mar 2, 2022·Twitter for iPhone
    https://twitter.com/olex_scherba/status/1498996954134720526
  • Options
    MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594
    Sandpit said:

    MISTY said:

    Sandpit said:

    Lovely moment at the start of PMQs

    The house all stand and applaud the attendance of Ukraine’s Ambassador

    That was lovely to watch, as is the packed house wearing Ukranian colours, including the Speaker.
    Virtue signalling b*ll*cks

    As I keep saying, this sort of thing will be on the news in Ukraine tonight.

    One man’s virtue signalling b*ll*cks, is another country’s morale-boosting show of support.
    We are clearly afraid of Russia and we don't really want to get involved.

    These gestures are to assuage your conscience on that matter. We all know that we are standing around watching a defenceless person getting beaten to a pulp by a bunch of bullies.

    IF wearing the Ukrainian flag makes you feel better about that, good for you.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,599
    The 20 min BBC WS programme about Russian Money in London I recommended earlier is now up:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/w3ct1jpy

    Thanks for the articles today, and have a good knees-up without kneejerks this evening.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,760
    Johnson waffling in reply to Starmer’s questions of why 18 months on property and why wait for publishing details on beneficial ownership - Monday Labour will table amendments to bill - will be interesting to see outcomes
  • Options
    MISTY said:

    Sandpit said:

    MISTY said:

    Sandpit said:

    Lovely moment at the start of PMQs

    The house all stand and applaud the attendance of Ukraine’s Ambassador

    That was lovely to watch, as is the packed house wearing Ukranian colours, including the Speaker.
    Virtue signalling b*ll*cks

    As I keep saying, this sort of thing will be on the news in Ukraine tonight.

    One man’s virtue signalling b*ll*cks, is another country’s morale-boosting show of support.
    We are clearly afraid of Russia and we don't really want to get involved.

    These gestures are to assuage your conscience on that matter. We all know that we are standing around watching a defenceless person getting beaten to a pulp by a bunch of bullies.

    IF wearing the Ukrainian flag makes you feel better about that, good for you.
    You're delusional, utterly delusional. No wonder you side with Trump who called Putin's invasion "genius".

    We are not standing around and Ukraine is not defenceless. Ukraine has had seven years of the UK supplying munitions and offering training and that is coming to light now in just how powerful supposedly-defenceless Ukraine actually is.

    If you think we're doing nothing, or Ukraine has no defenders, I think you need to pay more attention to what is going on and have a look at the impact NLAWs and more are having.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,336
    edited March 2022
    darkage said:

    I've not kept up with all the discussions on PB because of work. But two things have come in to my mind.

    1. Russia will probably win- in the sense that they will be successful in invading Ukraine. They've advanced through a large part of Ukraine in a week. In any normal circumstances (where the opposing side does not control the narrative about the war) it would look like a cakewalk. The danger is that by focusing on well publicised errors we convince ourselves that Russia aren't going to win. They are, they always were. We shouldn't get too disappointed if they eventually do.

    2. The problem will come for Russia when they do win. What then? We established yesterday that support for Pro Russian parties was about 16% in the most recent parliamentary election (2019). By hiving off Crimea and the Donbass, Putin has reduced the part of Ukraine favourable to him to a small minority, and the invasion including the attacks on civilians is hardly going to increase this number. How could that ever be the basis of a legitimate government in Ukraine?

    I would say that the military losses, financial sanctions and global isolation are just the very beginning of Putins problems.

    Very good post.

    If as looks likely if not probable the aim is to enter Kiev and install a puppet government then they are back to Afghan. A huge military presence to subdue a revolting population.

    The West might be tempted at that point to sit back and let that situation take its toll. It cannot use NATO-member Poland for any sponsoring of insurgency as that would bring Poland into play and in his current apparent mood Putin might have certain views about that.
  • Options
    PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083

    Blackford making an excellent point and in the right tone

    And now a second one. For all that Big Dog beats his chest and says "we are leading", the facts show the opposite. We must do more on freezing dodgy russian money being laundered and more to allow refugees to flee here.

    On the latter, that it took 4 attempts for Patel to even open an offer to British resident Ukranians to allow them to have their siblings take refuge with them is a shameful misread of the public mood.
    The facts show that the UK is leading the way, and the whole West is moving forward to the entire West's credit, in sanctions. Sanctions that started off mild are now globally amongst the toughest the world has ever seen.

    I agree fully that we should be doing more regarding those fleeing war.
    I don't think the facts really show the UK is leading the way - in some cases we were first to call for certain measures (sometimes including measures whose cost was rather higher for other countries than for the UK); in some we seem to have done more, such as providing military training; in others we've done much less, such as support for refugees. But regardless of the truth of it, I just don't understand the mindset that wants to insist that we are world-leading, or better, or have the best response - why are we engaged in competition with fellow countries at a time where what's needed is solidarity and co-operation? It doesn't achieve anything useful and is likely to undermine our aims by pointlessly annoying other countries.

    I realise some of this is just Johnson's technique of concealing lies through vacuous boosterism, but what is wrong with e.g. "we believe we are doing the right thing by not sanctioning these individuals" rather than "we have a world-leading response"?
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,315
    edited March 2022

    Ukraine fighting back

    olexander scherba🇺🇦
    @olex_scherba

    Reports of UA going in counterattack. The RU-occupied Horlivka is liberated.

    #UkraineRussiaWar #ukrainekicksass
    12:21 PM · Mar 2, 2022·Twitter for iPhone
    https://twitter.com/olex_scherba/status/1498996954134720526

    For reference, Horlivka is on the Russian side of the line of contact, that I don't think has moved, or at least not much, since 2014.

    Edit: That is, in the separatist-controlled Donetsk.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,472

    FPT : This is a bit of a concerning backpedalling from the rhetoric yesterday, from Lavrov. Yesterday he completely ruled it out, suggesting a weakening of Putin's authority. Now he's saying it could be both nuclear and destructive. The threats are back on, but still slightly back from Putin's original rhetoric, with the more negative "destructive" also indicating potential connotations for Putin.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10568685/Russias-foreign-minister-warns-world-war-NUCLEAR-destructive.html

    This is a bit concerning, because these movements on such high-stakes rhetoric suggest to me there could be a power struggle going on.

    Lavrov might be a potential successor. It's never going to be someone like Navalny.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,336

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    Sandpit said:

    Lovely moment at the start of PMQs

    The house all stand and applaud the attendance of Ukraine’s Ambassador

    That was lovely to watch, as is the packed house wearing Ukranian colours, including the Speaker.
    Virtue signalling b*ll*cks

    Bullshit.

    Signalling your support for allies who are literally fighting for their freedom matters.

    Morale matters.

    Symbolism matters.
    No they don't. As Darkage says, Putin is probably going to win at, which makes these gestures empty nothings.
    Darkage is wrong.

    Your mate Trump who called this genius is wrong too.

    These gestures, backed up by hard munitions like NLAWs and hard sanctions on finance etc, absolutely are not empty.
    Tell us a bit about the tactical deployment and battlefield application of NLAWs if you would.
  • Options

    Blackford making an excellent point and in the right tone

    And now a second one. For all that Big Dog beats his chest and says "we are leading", the facts show the opposite. We must do more on freezing dodgy russian money being laundered and more to allow refugees to flee here.

    On the latter, that it took 4 attempts for Patel to even open an offer to British resident Ukranians to allow them to have their siblings take refuge with them is a shameful misread of the public mood.
    The facts show that the UK is leading the way, and the whole West is moving forward to the entire West's credit, in sanctions. Sanctions that started off mild are now globally amongst the toughest the world has ever seen.

    I agree fully that we should be doing more regarding those fleeing war.
    So if we are leading the way why are we not actually leading the way?

    Its easy to claim "we're leading the way" and yet the specific examples and measures mentioned are sat there swept aside and ignored. We don't need an alliance to freeze monies and assets sat in the UK. So why don't we?
  • Options
    As for poll leads, I have bet on a Tory lead.
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    TOPPING said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    Sandpit said:

    Lovely moment at the start of PMQs

    The house all stand and applaud the attendance of Ukraine’s Ambassador

    That was lovely to watch, as is the packed house wearing Ukranian colours, including the Speaker.
    Virtue signalling b*ll*cks

    Bullshit.

    Signalling your support for allies who are literally fighting for their freedom matters.

    Morale matters.

    Symbolism matters.
    No they don't. As Darkage says, Putin is probably going to win at, which makes these gestures empty nothings.
    Darkage is wrong.

    Your mate Trump who called this genius is wrong too.

    These gestures, backed up by hard munitions like NLAWs and hard sanctions on finance etc, absolutely are not empty.
    Tell us a bit about the tactical deployment and battlefield application of NLAWs if you would.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/02/28/british-anti-tank-weapons-transforming-battlefield-ukraines/

    image

    https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/russian-convoy-blitzed-by-ukrainian-troops-armed-with-brit-anti-tank-weapons/
    image

    "empty gestures"
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,047
    Starmer rightly going on about oligarchs/Kremlin toadies and their assets in the UK because that remains our achilles' heel. I suppose the good thing about property is that it's unlikely to be sold quickly and there's time to make sure the legislation is reasonably well drafted.
  • Options
    MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594

    MISTY said:

    Sandpit said:

    MISTY said:

    Sandpit said:

    Lovely moment at the start of PMQs

    The house all stand and applaud the attendance of Ukraine’s Ambassador

    That was lovely to watch, as is the packed house wearing Ukranian colours, including the Speaker.
    Virtue signalling b*ll*cks

    As I keep saying, this sort of thing will be on the news in Ukraine tonight.

    One man’s virtue signalling b*ll*cks, is another country’s morale-boosting show of support.
    We are clearly afraid of Russia and we don't really want to get involved.

    These gestures are to assuage your conscience on that matter. We all know that we are standing around watching a defenceless person getting beaten to a pulp by a bunch of bullies.

    IF wearing the Ukrainian flag makes you feel better about that, good for you.
    You do know that @Sandpit has family in Ukraine and your response is simply shocking

    I for one absolutely support @Sandpit, his family and all the Ukraine people, and will wear the Ukraine badge with pride until Putin falls
    I am happy to apologise to Sandpit, but not for my comments.

    Rather, for the self congratulatory feebleness of our response.

    So sorry, Sandpit.
  • Options

    Johnson waffling in reply to Starmer’s questions of why 18 months on property and why wait for publishing details on beneficial ownership - Monday Labour will table amendments to bill - will be interesting to see outcomes

    There must be a reason for the 18 months and it is good that Boris and Starmer are to work together on this legislation
  • Options
    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited March 2022
    I wonder if the Chinese might put out a veiled statement about toning the threats down. They're not happy, although they haven't cut funding yet - but their statement yesterday clearly indicated that.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125

    Shouldn't refer to the PM as a dog.

    Dogs are renowned for their loyalty.

    Poon hound rather than dog shouldn't be controversial....
  • Options
    eek said:

    Blackford making an excellent point and in the right tone

    And now a second one. For all that Big Dog beats his chest and says "we are leading", the facts show the opposite. We must do more on freezing dodgy russian money being laundered and more to allow refugees to flee here.

    On the latter, that it took 4 attempts for Patel to even open an offer to British resident Ukranians to allow them to have their siblings take refuge with them is a shameful misread of the public mood.
    Is it? It's a shameful misreading of the mood of the people I know and on here but is it a complete misreading of the mood of the nation as a whole?

    The Tory party are for reasons I don't grasp breaching the the converted while scaring (more accurately horrifying) potential voters away without realising
    I'm not talking about everyone. Edward Leigh stood up and said "we don't want the forrin here" - he clearly still thinks the good people of Lincolnshire still think that way.

    But they may now be in the minority. The reason why the government had to keep backtracking was because they confidently thought people wanted to keep asylum seekers out. But a stack of Tory MPs disagreed based on feedback from constituents and finally we are being decent.

    So there is hope! In all horror situations you can find hope, and positive changes. This may be one of ours. And hopefully not treating the EUSSR as the evil empire will be another.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,336
    edited March 2022

    TOPPING said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    Sandpit said:

    Lovely moment at the start of PMQs

    The house all stand and applaud the attendance of Ukraine’s Ambassador

    That was lovely to watch, as is the packed house wearing Ukranian colours, including the Speaker.
    Virtue signalling b*ll*cks

    Bullshit.

    Signalling your support for allies who are literally fighting for their freedom matters.

    Morale matters.

    Symbolism matters.
    No they don't. As Darkage says, Putin is probably going to win at, which makes these gestures empty nothings.
    Darkage is wrong.

    Your mate Trump who called this genius is wrong too.

    These gestures, backed up by hard munitions like NLAWs and hard sanctions on finance etc, absolutely are not empty.
    Tell us a bit about the tactical deployment and battlefield application of NLAWs if you would.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/02/28/british-anti-tank-weapons-transforming-battlefield-ukraines/

    image

    https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/russian-convoy-blitzed-by-ukrainian-troops-armed-with-brit-anti-tank-weapons/
    image

    "empty gestures"
    LOL. Tell us a bit about the tactical deployment and battlefield application of NLAWs.

    Edit: and whatever was responsible for that bottom photo it wasn't NLAWs.
  • Options
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    Sandpit said:

    Lovely moment at the start of PMQs

    The house all stand and applaud the attendance of Ukraine’s Ambassador

    That was lovely to watch, as is the packed house wearing Ukranian colours, including the Speaker.
    Virtue signalling b*ll*cks

    Bullshit.

    Signalling your support for allies who are literally fighting for their freedom matters.

    Morale matters.

    Symbolism matters.
    No they don't. As Darkage says, Putin is probably going to win at, which makes these gestures empty nothings.
    Darkage is wrong.

    Your mate Trump who called this genius is wrong too.

    These gestures, backed up by hard munitions like NLAWs and hard sanctions on finance etc, absolutely are not empty.
    Tell us a bit about the tactical deployment and battlefield application of NLAWs if you would.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/02/28/british-anti-tank-weapons-transforming-battlefield-ukraines/

    image

    https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/russian-convoy-blitzed-by-ukrainian-troops-armed-with-brit-anti-tank-weapons/
    image

    "empty gestures"
    LOL. Tell us a bit about the tactical deployment and battlefield application of NLAWs.
    https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/russian-convoy-blitzed-by-ukrainian-troops-armed-with-brit-anti-tank-weapons/
    image
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,669

    Not really that bothered with polls at the moment!

    Yes, who cares (apart from those putting money on it) ?
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,336

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    Sandpit said:

    Lovely moment at the start of PMQs

    The house all stand and applaud the attendance of Ukraine’s Ambassador

    That was lovely to watch, as is the packed house wearing Ukranian colours, including the Speaker.
    Virtue signalling b*ll*cks

    Bullshit.

    Signalling your support for allies who are literally fighting for their freedom matters.

    Morale matters.

    Symbolism matters.
    No they don't. As Darkage says, Putin is probably going to win at, which makes these gestures empty nothings.
    Darkage is wrong.

    Your mate Trump who called this genius is wrong too.

    These gestures, backed up by hard munitions like NLAWs and hard sanctions on finance etc, absolutely are not empty.
    Tell us a bit about the tactical deployment and battlefield application of NLAWs if you would.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/02/28/british-anti-tank-weapons-transforming-battlefield-ukraines/

    image

    https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/russian-convoy-blitzed-by-ukrainian-troops-armed-with-brit-anti-tank-weapons/
    image

    "empty gestures"
    LOL. Tell us a bit about the tactical deployment and battlefield application of NLAWs.
    https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/russian-convoy-blitzed-by-ukrainian-troops-armed-with-brit-anti-tank-weapons/
    image
    To repeat, whatever did that it wasn't NLAWs.
  • Options
    FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 3,891
    Re: How long is the convoy?

    I checked the Sentinel images and the latest without cloud cover was from 1a on the 28th Feb

    https://apps.sentinel-hub.com/eo-browser/?zoom=14&lat=50.85334&lng=30.01791&themeId=DEFAULT-THEME&visualizationUrl=https://services.sentinel-hub.com/ogc/wms/f2068f4f-3c75-42cf-84a1-42948340a846&datasetId=S1_AWS_IW_VVVH&fromTime=2022-02-28T00:00:00.000Z&toTime=2022-02-28T23:59:59.999Z&layerId=8_RGB-RATIO

    Looks about 10km long to me, stuck near Fenevychi. There may be other parts to it.

    Unfortunately it was cloudy yesterday.



  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,760
    For any who didn’t see it - HoC standing ovation for Ukrainian Ambassador

    https://twitter.com/GlennBBC/status/1499002750058876931
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,174

    Blackford making an excellent point and in the right tone

    And now a second one. For all that Big Dog beats his chest and says "we are leading", the facts show the opposite. We must do more on freezing dodgy russian money being laundered and more to allow refugees to flee here.

    On the latter, that it took 4 attempts for Patel to even open an offer to British resident Ukranians to allow them to have their siblings take refuge with them is a shameful misread of the public mood.
    That is their modus operandi though, specifically on immigration and Br*xit, they try the the minimum and wait and see if they’ve gotten away with it, then make minimal adjustments if the clamour gets too loud or a PL footballer shames them into it.

    On immigration the Cons know the welcoming and generous voter can flip to ‘where are they flocking from’ v. quickly.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,046
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    Sandpit said:

    Lovely moment at the start of PMQs

    The house all stand and applaud the attendance of Ukraine’s Ambassador

    That was lovely to watch, as is the packed house wearing Ukranian colours, including the Speaker.
    Virtue signalling b*ll*cks

    Bullshit.

    Signalling your support for allies who are literally fighting for their freedom matters.

    Morale matters.

    Symbolism matters.
    No they don't. As Darkage says, Putin is probably going to win at, which makes these gestures empty nothings.
    Darkage is wrong.

    Your mate Trump who called this genius is wrong too.

    These gestures, backed up by hard munitions like NLAWs and hard sanctions on finance etc, absolutely are not empty.
    Tell us a bit about the tactical deployment and battlefield application of NLAWs if you would.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/02/28/british-anti-tank-weapons-transforming-battlefield-ukraines/

    image

    https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/russian-convoy-blitzed-by-ukrainian-troops-armed-with-brit-anti-tank-weapons/
    image

    "empty gestures"
    LOL. Tell us a bit about the tactical deployment and battlefield application of NLAWs.

    Edit: and whatever was responsible for that bottom photo it wasn't NLAWs.
    Yep, it probably won't all be NLAW. But two points:

    *) Some of the weaponry used in the attack might have been NLAWs. Just not solely. We cannot know.
    *) In a war that will be chewing weapons up faster than soldiers, provision of the the NLAWs might have freed up the weapons that did this.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,432
    Economic statistics and Brexit enthusiasts should note some shiny new numbers from HMG. I've not looked but they were sent out with the daily Covid update email.

    Payrolled employments in the UK by region, industry and nationality, from July 2014 to June 2021

    This experimental statistics publication provides counts of payrolled employments in the UK from July 2014 to June 2021, with analysis by geographical region, industrial sector and nationality.


    https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/changes-in-payrolled-employments-held-by-non-uk-nationals-during-the-coronavirus-covid-19-pandemic-and-eu-exit-periods

    Changes in payrolled employments held by non-UK nationals during the coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic and EU Exit periods

    Using new Experimental Statistics from HMRC Pay As You Earn (PAYE) Real Time Information (RTI) data linked to Migrant Worker Scan (MWS) to explore changes in payrolled employments in the labour market by nationality, region and industry from July 2014 to June 2021.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/changes-in-payrolled-employments-held-by-non-uk-nationals-during-the-coronavirus-covid-19-pandemic-and-eu-exit-periods
  • Options
    PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083

    Johnson waffling in reply to Starmer’s questions of why 18 months on property and why wait for publishing details on beneficial ownership - Monday Labour will table amendments to bill - will be interesting to see outcomes

    There must be a reason for the 18 months and it is good that Boris and Starmer are to work together on this legislation
    If there was a "good reason", presumably Johnson would have said what it was. If it's just a "reason" it could include lack of preparation, opposition from the Treasury, lobbying from those affected, and so on.

    I expect Labour will table amendments to make the measures much more aggressive, so it's going to cause some difficulty for the government if they witter on about "world-beating" while whipping against the amendments, unless some genuine reasons can be brought forward.

    Expectations of the government's ability to legislate and act at speed have been totally changed by Covid legislation which means the optics of any delay are not great.
  • Options
    NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    The approach on Russian owned assets should be to start with a small "white list" (opposition figures) and confiscate everything else above a certain value (middle class Russians not really hit). Some of the assets to be returned subject to future enquiries. Those not returned to be sold to help Ukraine.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,458

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    Sandpit said:

    Lovely moment at the start of PMQs

    The house all stand and applaud the attendance of Ukraine’s Ambassador

    That was lovely to watch, as is the packed house wearing Ukranian colours, including the Speaker.
    Virtue signalling b*ll*cks

    Bullshit.

    Signalling your support for allies who are literally fighting for their freedom matters.

    Morale matters.

    Symbolism matters.
    No they don't. As Darkage says, Putin is probably going to win at, which makes these gestures empty nothings.
    Darkage is wrong.

    Your mate Trump who called this genius is wrong too.

    These gestures, backed up by hard munitions like NLAWs and hard sanctions on finance etc, absolutely are not empty.
    Tell us a bit about the tactical deployment and battlefield application of NLAWs if you would.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/02/28/british-anti-tank-weapons-transforming-battlefield-ukraines/

    image

    https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/russian-convoy-blitzed-by-ukrainian-troops-armed-with-brit-anti-tank-weapons/
    image

    "empty gestures"
    LOL. Tell us a bit about the tactical deployment and battlefield application of NLAWs.

    Edit: and whatever was responsible for that bottom photo it wasn't NLAWs.
    Yep, it probably won't all be NLAW. But two points:

    *) Some of the weaponry used in the attack might have been NLAWs. Just not solely. We cannot know.
    *) In a war that will be chewing weapons up faster than soldiers, provision of the the NLAWs might have freed up the weapons that did this.
    Maybe it's just me, but having zoomed in on that picture - all I can see a number of burned out vehicles. Given they seem to have cooked off ammunition in the fires, I couldn't make out any evidence of what hit them in the first place.
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,779
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    Sandpit said:

    Lovely moment at the start of PMQs

    The house all stand and applaud the attendance of Ukraine’s Ambassador

    That was lovely to watch, as is the packed house wearing Ukranian colours, including the Speaker.
    Virtue signalling b*ll*cks

    Bullshit.

    Signalling your support for allies who are literally fighting for their freedom matters.

    Morale matters.

    Symbolism matters.
    No they don't. As Darkage says, Putin is probably going to win at, which makes these gestures empty nothings.
    Darkage is wrong.

    Your mate Trump who called this genius is wrong too.

    These gestures, backed up by hard munitions like NLAWs and hard sanctions on finance etc, absolutely are not empty.
    Tell us a bit about the tactical deployment and battlefield application of NLAWs if you would.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/02/28/british-anti-tank-weapons-transforming-battlefield-ukraines/

    image

    https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/russian-convoy-blitzed-by-ukrainian-troops-armed-with-brit-anti-tank-weapons/
    image

    "empty gestures"
    LOL. Tell us a bit about the tactical deployment and battlefield application of NLAWs.
    https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/russian-convoy-blitzed-by-ukrainian-troops-armed-with-brit-anti-tank-weapons/
    image
    To repeat, whatever did that it wasn't NLAWs.
    Did the person who named that weapon the NLAW end up getting divorced by any chance?
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,336

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    Sandpit said:

    Lovely moment at the start of PMQs

    The house all stand and applaud the attendance of Ukraine’s Ambassador

    That was lovely to watch, as is the packed house wearing Ukranian colours, including the Speaker.
    Virtue signalling b*ll*cks

    Bullshit.

    Signalling your support for allies who are literally fighting for their freedom matters.

    Morale matters.

    Symbolism matters.
    No they don't. As Darkage says, Putin is probably going to win at, which makes these gestures empty nothings.
    Darkage is wrong.

    Your mate Trump who called this genius is wrong too.

    These gestures, backed up by hard munitions like NLAWs and hard sanctions on finance etc, absolutely are not empty.
    Tell us a bit about the tactical deployment and battlefield application of NLAWs if you would.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/02/28/british-anti-tank-weapons-transforming-battlefield-ukraines/

    image

    https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/russian-convoy-blitzed-by-ukrainian-troops-armed-with-brit-anti-tank-weapons/
    image

    "empty gestures"
    LOL. Tell us a bit about the tactical deployment and battlefield application of NLAWs.

    Edit: and whatever was responsible for that bottom photo it wasn't NLAWs.
    Yep, it probably won't all be NLAW. But two points:

    *) Some of the weaponry used in the attack might have been NLAWs. Just not solely. We cannot know.
    *) In a war that will be chewing weapons up faster than soldiers, provision of the the NLAWs might have freed up the weapons that did this.
    Jesus fucking Christ I know that conflicts in distant lands turn all PB posters into a cross between Sun Tzu and Metternich but just look at the fucking picture. How do you suppose an NLAW operates. I don't even know why I am having this discussion. In fact new rule: stop discussing military matters with PB's armchair generals. Go for your life. Great NLAW action.

    Tossers.
  • Options
    BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    Sandpit said:

    Lovely moment at the start of PMQs

    The house all stand and applaud the attendance of Ukraine’s Ambassador

    That was lovely to watch, as is the packed house wearing Ukranian colours, including the Speaker.
    Virtue signalling b*ll*cks

    Bullshit.

    Signalling your support for allies who are literally fighting for their freedom matters.

    Morale matters.

    Symbolism matters.
    No they don't. As Darkage says, Putin is probably going to win at, which makes these gestures empty nothings.
    Darkage is wrong.

    Your mate Trump who called this genius is wrong too.

    These gestures, backed up by hard munitions like NLAWs and hard sanctions on finance etc, absolutely are not empty.
    Tell us a bit about the tactical deployment and battlefield application of NLAWs if you would.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/02/28/british-anti-tank-weapons-transforming-battlefield-ukraines/

    image

    https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/russian-convoy-blitzed-by-ukrainian-troops-armed-with-brit-anti-tank-weapons/
    image

    "empty gestures"
    LOL. Tell us a bit about the tactical deployment and battlefield application of NLAWs.

    Edit: and whatever was responsible for that bottom photo it wasn't NLAWs.
    Why do you say that?

    I am no expert but ALOW destroys tanks and other armed vehicles, those or Russian Armand vehicles and the Ukrainians have NLAWs supplied by UK.

    Can you tell by the type of damage?
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,760
    UK MOD just released a map of the situation in Ukraine

    https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1499004831473844229
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,336

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    Sandpit said:

    Lovely moment at the start of PMQs

    The house all stand and applaud the attendance of Ukraine’s Ambassador

    That was lovely to watch, as is the packed house wearing Ukranian colours, including the Speaker.
    Virtue signalling b*ll*cks

    Bullshit.

    Signalling your support for allies who are literally fighting for their freedom matters.

    Morale matters.

    Symbolism matters.
    No they don't. As Darkage says, Putin is probably going to win at, which makes these gestures empty nothings.
    Darkage is wrong.

    Your mate Trump who called this genius is wrong too.

    These gestures, backed up by hard munitions like NLAWs and hard sanctions on finance etc, absolutely are not empty.
    Tell us a bit about the tactical deployment and battlefield application of NLAWs if you would.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/02/28/british-anti-tank-weapons-transforming-battlefield-ukraines/

    image

    https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/russian-convoy-blitzed-by-ukrainian-troops-armed-with-brit-anti-tank-weapons/
    image

    "empty gestures"
    LOL. Tell us a bit about the tactical deployment and battlefield application of NLAWs.
    https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/russian-convoy-blitzed-by-ukrainian-troops-armed-with-brit-anti-tank-weapons/
    image
    To repeat, whatever did that it wasn't NLAWs.
    Did the person who named that weapon the NLAW end up getting divorced by any chance?
    LOL now that is a discussion I can get involved in. Perhaps would be my answer.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,030

    TOPPING said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    Sandpit said:

    Lovely moment at the start of PMQs

    The house all stand and applaud the attendance of Ukraine’s Ambassador

    That was lovely to watch, as is the packed house wearing Ukranian colours, including the Speaker.
    Virtue signalling b*ll*cks

    Bullshit.

    Signalling your support for allies who are literally fighting for their freedom matters.

    Morale matters.

    Symbolism matters.
    No they don't. As Darkage says, Putin is probably going to win at, which makes these gestures empty nothings.
    Darkage is wrong.

    Your mate Trump who called this genius is wrong too.

    These gestures, backed up by hard munitions like NLAWs and hard sanctions on finance etc, absolutely are not empty.
    Tell us a bit about the tactical deployment and battlefield application of NLAWs if you would.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/02/28/british-anti-tank-weapons-transforming-battlefield-ukraines/

    image

    https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/russian-convoy-blitzed-by-ukrainian-troops-armed-with-brit-anti-tank-weapons/
    image

    "empty gestures"
    Exactly, we have done what we could sending Ukraine military supplies before the Russian invasion and our doing all we can do.

    President Biden has ruled out sending US troops to Ukraine and imposing a no fly zone and we will not do anything beyond what the US is doing. Namely economic sanctions.

    In terms of confronting Russia and China global realpolitik is that we follow the US lead within NATO, even more so now we have left the EU
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,315
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    Sandpit said:

    Lovely moment at the start of PMQs

    The house all stand and applaud the attendance of Ukraine’s Ambassador

    That was lovely to watch, as is the packed house wearing Ukranian colours, including the Speaker.
    Virtue signalling b*ll*cks

    Bullshit.

    Signalling your support for allies who are literally fighting for their freedom matters.

    Morale matters.

    Symbolism matters.
    No they don't. As Darkage says, Putin is probably going to win at, which makes these gestures empty nothings.
    Darkage is wrong.

    Your mate Trump who called this genius is wrong too.

    These gestures, backed up by hard munitions like NLAWs and hard sanctions on finance etc, absolutely are not empty.
    Tell us a bit about the tactical deployment and battlefield application of NLAWs if you would.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/02/28/british-anti-tank-weapons-transforming-battlefield-ukraines/

    image

    https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/russian-convoy-blitzed-by-ukrainian-troops-armed-with-brit-anti-tank-weapons/
    image

    "empty gestures"
    LOL. Tell us a bit about the tactical deployment and battlefield application of NLAWs.

    Edit: and whatever was responsible for that bottom photo it wasn't NLAWs.
    Yep, it probably won't all be NLAW. But two points:

    *) Some of the weaponry used in the attack might have been NLAWs. Just not solely. We cannot know.
    *) In a war that will be chewing weapons up faster than soldiers, provision of the the NLAWs might have freed up the weapons that did this.
    Jesus fucking Christ I know that conflicts in distant lands turn all PB posters into a cross between Sun Tzu and Metternich but just look at the fucking picture. How do you suppose an NLAW operates. I don't even know why I am having this discussion. In fact new rule: stop discussing military matters with PB's armchair generals. Go for your life. Great NLAW action.

    Tossers.
    I'd find it helpful if you'd explain rather than simply insist everyone accepts your expert opinion. It would be more interesting too.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,472
    edited March 2022
    I don't really understand this debate about Ukrainian assylum seekers. We have an assylum system, which offers assylum to people fleeing persecution and war. If someone is fleeing the war in Ukraine, their assylum claim will be successful. I don't understand why we'd have a debate about fruit picking or other schemes.
  • Options
    MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594
    Sandpit said:

    MISTY said:

    Sandpit said:

    MISTY said:

    Sandpit said:

    Lovely moment at the start of PMQs

    The house all stand and applaud the attendance of Ukraine’s Ambassador

    That was lovely to watch, as is the packed house wearing Ukranian colours, including the Speaker.
    Virtue signalling b*ll*cks

    As I keep saying, this sort of thing will be on the news in Ukraine tonight.

    One man’s virtue signalling b*ll*cks, is another country’s morale-boosting show of support.
    We are clearly afraid of Russia and we don't really want to get involved.

    These gestures are to assuage your conscience on that matter. We all know that we are standing around watching a defenceless person getting beaten to a pulp by a bunch of bullies.

    IF wearing the Ukrainian flag makes you feel better about that, good for you.
    We are rightly afraid of nuclear war and escalation by a lunatic dictator, but that doesn’t mean we do either all or nothing.

    Wearing a Ukranian flag sure as hell makes me feel better, if only as a show of support for my Ukranian wife, her family and friends - some of whom are sleeping in the metro in Kiev at the moment.

    Shows of support from overseas matter a lot to the Ukranians at the moment, it’s good for them to see that the whole world is standing behind them and wanting them to succeed.

    Thankfully it’s not just words though, the West and NATO have responded admirably, sending plenty of weapons and training to the Ukranians over the past eight years, and happy to keep the military supply lines open now, when they are most needed.
    I apologised to you Sandpit, see my later post.

    I think your country is incredibly brave and noble, but I think all this 'standing with Ukraine' from our leaders when we are standing by watching your cities get turned to rubble, is empty gestures to make them feel better about their choices.

  • Options
    Polruan said:

    Johnson waffling in reply to Starmer’s questions of why 18 months on property and why wait for publishing details on beneficial ownership - Monday Labour will table amendments to bill - will be interesting to see outcomes

    There must be a reason for the 18 months and it is good that Boris and Starmer are to work together on this legislation
    If there was a "good reason", presumably Johnson would have said what it was. If it's just a "reason" it could include lack of preparation, opposition from the Treasury, lobbying from those affected, and so on.

    I expect Labour will table amendments to make the measures much more aggressive, so it's going to cause some difficulty for the government if they witter on about "world-beating" while whipping against the amendments, unless some genuine reasons can be brought forward.

    Expectations of the government's ability to legislate and act at speed have been totally changed by Covid legislation which means the optics of any delay are not great.
    Fair comment, but I would not be at all surprised if it was legal with many highly paid lawyers in London complicating matters to favour their Russian clients

    I hope Boris and Starmer find a solution
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,266
    if Putin goes ahead and levels Ukraine’s biggest cities and its capital, Kyiv, he and all of his cronies will never again see the London and New York apartments they bought with all their stolen riches. There will be no more Davos and no more St. Moritz. Instead, they will all be locked in a big prison called Russia — with the freedom to travel only to Syria, Crimea, Belarus, North Korea and China, maybe. Their kids will be thrown out of private boarding schools from Switzerland to Oxford.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/01/opinion/ukraine-russia-putin.html
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,009
    BigRich said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    Sandpit said:

    Lovely moment at the start of PMQs

    The house all stand and applaud the attendance of Ukraine’s Ambassador

    That was lovely to watch, as is the packed house wearing Ukranian colours, including the Speaker.
    Virtue signalling b*ll*cks

    Bullshit.

    Signalling your support for allies who are literally fighting for their freedom matters.

    Morale matters.

    Symbolism matters.
    No they don't. As Darkage says, Putin is probably going to win at, which makes these gestures empty nothings.
    Darkage is wrong.

    Your mate Trump who called this genius is wrong too.

    These gestures, backed up by hard munitions like NLAWs and hard sanctions on finance etc, absolutely are not empty.
    Tell us a bit about the tactical deployment and battlefield application of NLAWs if you would.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/02/28/british-anti-tank-weapons-transforming-battlefield-ukraines/

    image

    https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/russian-convoy-blitzed-by-ukrainian-troops-armed-with-brit-anti-tank-weapons/
    image

    "empty gestures"
    LOL. Tell us a bit about the tactical deployment and battlefield application of NLAWs.

    Edit: and whatever was responsible for that bottom photo it wasn't NLAWs.
    Why do you say that?

    I am no expert but ALOW destroys tanks and other armed vehicles, those or Russian Armand vehicles and the Ukrainians have NLAWs supplied by UK.

    Can you tell by the type of damage?
    An NLAW round is about the size of a cheap dildo. It just can't deliver that level of carnage.

    For whatever reason the UK didn't give Ukraine Javelin which has a much bigger warhead and longer range. They got a round of applause instead. NHS staff can sympathise.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,997
    MISTY said:

    Sandpit said:

    MISTY said:

    Sandpit said:

    MISTY said:

    Sandpit said:

    Lovely moment at the start of PMQs

    The house all stand and applaud the attendance of Ukraine’s Ambassador

    That was lovely to watch, as is the packed house wearing Ukranian colours, including the Speaker.
    Virtue signalling b*ll*cks

    As I keep saying, this sort of thing will be on the news in Ukraine tonight.

    One man’s virtue signalling b*ll*cks, is another country’s morale-boosting show of support.
    We are clearly afraid of Russia and we don't really want to get involved.

    These gestures are to assuage your conscience on that matter. We all know that we are standing around watching a defenceless person getting beaten to a pulp by a bunch of bullies.

    IF wearing the Ukrainian flag makes you feel better about that, good for you.
    We are rightly afraid of nuclear war and escalation by a lunatic dictator, but that doesn’t mean we do either all or nothing.

    Wearing a Ukranian flag sure as hell makes me feel better, if only as a show of support for my Ukranian wife, her family and friends - some of whom are sleeping in the metro in Kiev at the moment.

    Shows of support from overseas matter a lot to the Ukranians at the moment, it’s good for them to see that the whole world is standing behind them and wanting them to succeed.

    Thankfully it’s not just words though, the West and NATO have responded admirably, sending plenty of weapons and training to the Ukranians over the past eight years, and happy to keep the military supply lines open now, when they are most needed.
    I apologised to you Sandpit, see my later post.

    I think your country is incredibly brave and noble, but I think all this 'standing with Ukraine' from our leaders when we are standing by watching your cities get turned to rubble, is empty gestures to make them feel better about their choices.

    No because at the moment there is sod all else we can do that won't result in things escalating seriously badly very quickly.

    Because Russia seem to be angling for a fight (which makes little sense given how badly the invasion has gone) the West is having to be very careful when it comes to military matters and spending a lot of time making sure that no theoretical white line is breached that Russia could use as an excuse to escalate things further.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,299
    edited March 2022

    Blackford making an excellent point and in the right tone

    And now a second one. For all that Big Dog beats his chest and says "we are leading", the facts show the opposite. We must do more on freezing dodgy russian money being laundered and more to allow refugees to flee here.

    On the latter, that it took 4 attempts for Patel to even open an offer to British resident Ukranians to allow them to have their siblings take refuge with them is a shameful misread of the public mood.
    The facts show that the UK is leading the way, and the whole West is moving forward to the entire West's credit, in sanctions. Sanctions that started off mild are now globally amongst the toughest the world has ever seen.

    I agree fully that we should be doing more regarding those fleeing war.
    Nevertheless had the clown wanted to fulfil his dream of being the new Churchill, he would have spent the last few years tirelessly warning us about the dangers of Russia, not encouraging the country to keep on taking their money, and flying off for secret meetings with wealthy Russians.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,997

    I don't really understand this debate about Ukrainian assylum seekers. We have an assylum system, which offers assylum to people fleeing persecution and war. If someone is fleeing the war in Ukraine, their assylum claim will be successful. I don't understand why we'd have a debate about fruit picking or other schemes.

    The issue comes down to the fact that a law abiding Ukrainian cannot get on a flight to the UK without a valid visa (even though they are a refugee). A £25,000 fine per person has an impact on airline decision making.

    And at the moment we aren't issuing free visas to Ukrainians we are still charging them £100 / £1000s in visa processing fees.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,236
    Polruan said:

    Blackford making an excellent point and in the right tone

    And now a second one. For all that Big Dog beats his chest and says "we are leading", the facts show the opposite. We must do more on freezing dodgy russian money being laundered and more to allow refugees to flee here.

    On the latter, that it took 4 attempts for Patel to even open an offer to British resident Ukranians to allow them to have their siblings take refuge with them is a shameful misread of the public mood.
    The facts show that the UK is leading the way, and the whole West is moving forward to the entire West's credit, in sanctions. Sanctions that started off mild are now globally amongst the toughest the world has ever seen.

    I agree fully that we should be doing more regarding those fleeing war.
    I don't think the facts really show the UK is leading the way - in some cases we were first to call for certain measures (sometimes including measures whose cost was rather higher for other countries than for the UK); in some we seem to have done more, such as providing military training; in others we've done much less, such as support for refugees. But regardless of the truth of it, I just don't understand the mindset that wants to insist that we are world-leading, or better, or have the best response - why are we engaged in competition with fellow countries at a time where what's needed is solidarity and co-operation? It doesn't achieve anything useful and is likely to undermine our aims by pointlessly annoying other countries.

    I realise some of this is just Johnson's technique of concealing lies through vacuous boosterism, but what is wrong with e.g. "we believe we are doing the right thing by not sanctioning these individuals" rather than "we have a world-leading response"?
    If Johnson has made a claim in Parliament it has to be copper bottomed true. He wouldn't dare mislead Parliament. That being so he would have to resign.
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    MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,448
    "Why are we giving Putin's cronies 18 months to quietly launder their money?"

    Labour leader Keir Starmer questions effectiveness of Boris Johnson's sanctions package, but the U.K. PM insists they're already having an impact on Russian regime http://bloom.bg/3tmlriC
    https://twitter.com/BloombergUK/status/1498998462326751236

    'Leading the way..'
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    Sandpit said:

    Lovely moment at the start of PMQs

    The house all stand and applaud the attendance of Ukraine’s Ambassador

    That was lovely to watch, as is the packed house wearing Ukranian colours, including the Speaker.
    Virtue signalling b*ll*cks

    Bullshit.

    Signalling your support for allies who are literally fighting for their freedom matters.

    Morale matters.

    Symbolism matters.
    No they don't. As Darkage says, Putin is probably going to win at, which makes these gestures empty nothings.
    Darkage is wrong.

    Your mate Trump who called this genius is wrong too.

    These gestures, backed up by hard munitions like NLAWs and hard sanctions on finance etc, absolutely are not empty.
    Tell us a bit about the tactical deployment and battlefield application of NLAWs if you would.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/02/28/british-anti-tank-weapons-transforming-battlefield-ukraines/

    image

    https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/russian-convoy-blitzed-by-ukrainian-troops-armed-with-brit-anti-tank-weapons/
    image

    "empty gestures"
    LOL. Tell us a bit about the tactical deployment and battlefield application of NLAWs.
    https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/russian-convoy-blitzed-by-ukrainian-troops-armed-with-brit-anti-tank-weapons/
    image
    To repeat, whatever did that it wasn't NLAWs.
    Did the person who named that weapon the NLAW end up getting divorced by any chance?
    Gonna be so many young guys packing the wife's parents off to Ukraine "to help the war effort - they are crying out for yer...."
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,315

    I don't really understand this debate about Ukrainian assylum seekers. We have an assylum system, which offers assylum to people fleeing persecution and war. If someone is fleeing the war in Ukraine, their assylum claim will be successful. I don't understand why we'd have a debate about fruit picking or other schemes.

    You can't claim asylum unless you are in the UK. Ukrainians cannot legally enter the UK without a visa. This means you are asking Ukrainians to enter the UK illegally in order to claim asylum - more passengers for the small boats crossing the channel?
  • Options
    FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 3,891

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    Sandpit said:

    Lovely moment at the start of PMQs

    The house all stand and applaud the attendance of Ukraine’s Ambassador

    That was lovely to watch, as is the packed house wearing Ukranian colours, including the Speaker.
    Virtue signalling b*ll*cks

    Bullshit.

    Signalling your support for allies who are literally fighting for their freedom matters.

    Morale matters.

    Symbolism matters.
    No they don't. As Darkage says, Putin is probably going to win at, which makes these gestures empty nothings.
    Darkage is wrong.

    Your mate Trump who called this genius is wrong too.

    These gestures, backed up by hard munitions like NLAWs and hard sanctions on finance etc, absolutely are not empty.
    Tell us a bit about the tactical deployment and battlefield application of NLAWs if you would.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/02/28/british-anti-tank-weapons-transforming-battlefield-ukraines/

    image

    https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/russian-convoy-blitzed-by-ukrainian-troops-armed-with-brit-anti-tank-weapons/
    image

    "empty gestures"
    LOL. Tell us a bit about the tactical deployment and battlefield application of NLAWs.

    Edit: and whatever was responsible for that bottom photo it wasn't NLAWs.
    Yep, it probably won't all be NLAW. But two points:

    *) Some of the weaponry used in the attack might have been NLAWs. Just not solely. We cannot know.
    *) In a war that will be chewing weapons up faster than soldiers, provision of the the NLAWs might have freed up the weapons that did this.
    Surely you hit the armour with NLAW and the rest with RPGs? If you have the choice.

    Unfortunately this will only push the Russians towards the Grozny solution.

    We have to try and make sure every Russian knows what its government is doing. But how?

    I don't really understand this debate about Ukrainian assylum seekers. We have an assylum system, which offers assylum to people fleeing persecution and war. If someone is fleeing the war in Ukraine, their assylum claim will be successful. I don't understand why we'd have a debate about fruit picking or other schemes.

    My guess, and this is just a guess, is that someone asked the home office what the quickest way of getting people official temporary visas was, and they thought, I know, fruit picking works, lets do that, even if they aren't actually fruit picking.

    Instead of throwing away the bureaucracy as they should, they suggest a workaround.

    Same goes for charging people silly money. That's what the process says, and we can't change the process...
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,997

    if Putin goes ahead and levels Ukraine’s biggest cities and its capital, Kyiv, he and all of his cronies will never again see the London and New York apartments they bought with all their stolen riches. There will be no more Davos and no more St. Moritz. Instead, they will all be locked in a big prison called Russia — with the freedom to travel only to Syria, Crimea, Belarus, North Korea and China, maybe. Their kids will be thrown out of private boarding schools from Switzerland to Oxford.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/01/opinion/ukraine-russia-putin.html

    They don't just have the joys of that limited choice of options. They will also have an open invite to the Hague and some awkward and very painful (sadly only verbally rather than physically) meetings followed by a few to a lot of years in a very small studio flat without cooking facilities.
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,797
    Sandpit said:

    MISTY said:

    Sandpit said:

    MISTY said:

    Sandpit said:

    Lovely moment at the start of PMQs

    The house all stand and applaud the attendance of Ukraine’s Ambassador

    That was lovely to watch, as is the packed house wearing Ukranian colours, including the Speaker.
    Virtue signalling b*ll*cks

    As I keep saying, this sort of thing will be on the news in Ukraine tonight.

    One man’s virtue signalling b*ll*cks, is another country’s morale-boosting show of support.
    We are clearly afraid of Russia and we don't really want to get involved.

    These gestures are to assuage your conscience on that matter. We all know that we are standing around watching a defenceless person getting beaten to a pulp by a bunch of bullies.

    IF wearing the Ukrainian flag makes you feel better about that, good for you.
    We are rightly afraid of nuclear war and escalation by a lunatic dictator, but that doesn’t mean we do either all or nothing.

    Wearing a Ukranian flag sure as hell makes me feel better, if only as a show of support for my Ukranian wife, her family and friends - some of whom are sleeping in the metro in Kiev at the moment.

    Shows of support from overseas matter a lot to the Ukranians at the moment, it’s good for them to see that the whole world is standing behind them and wanting them to succeed.

    Thankfully it’s not just words though, the West and NATO have responded admirably, sending plenty of weapons and training to the Ukranians over the past eight years, and happy to keep the military supply lines open now, when they are most needed.

    Edit: I see your apology upthread. Accepted. For some of us, this war is very personal indeed.
    Interesting thoughts, @Sandpit.
    I imagine that part of all this is that Ukraine feels insecure as a nation - particularly as Russia is trying to rubbish it (literally) and is saying that it should not exist.
    Personally I don't feel particularly comfortable with flag waving - I made my own decision several days ago, I would give significant amounts of money to the war effort and I've stuck with that. I don't object to it though and think it is great.
    The challenge however is that there are dark days coming, there is probably not going to be a happy ending any time soon, and we need to be in this for the long term.
This discussion has been closed.