What should the West do? the UK view of a range of suggestions – YouGov – politicalbetting.com
Comments
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I remember seeing a report about an online covid conference with him about a year ago now, and being struck that there was something quite noticeably odd and new about his expression. His face looked permanently curled into some sort of passively malign, but also almost frozen or medicated, sneer. He's had this for about 18 months now ; he now looks physically unwell, too.RandallFlagg said:
Maybe Putin really has gone completely mental.Gardenwalker said:Russia has warned Finland, Sweden of military consequences if they seek to join NATO.
https://twitter.com/jasongroves1/status/1497222749252632583?s=210 -
Does Putin have a stronger easier alternative than use Zelenskiy, if Zelenskiy willing to talk on that?Nigelb said:
if you think that's the limit of Putin's demands, then I think you're being naive.MoonRabbit said:
I think that right. What it effectively means is constitution no longer calls for NATO membership - they have never even put in an application and even the most ardent NATO supporters on this forum reckon there’s no chance of it being approved?kle4 said:
I think it would be neutrality at the point of a gun, but he'd be under a lot of pressure from all sides to agree that as privately it would be less of a headache for the West to accept that even if officially they csnt say it.MoonRabbit said:
It could be I agree with you. But if Russia dictate where, Zelenskiy will be flown to Moscow as I suspect.darkage said:
Presumably the negotiations could be done on Teams/Zoom?MoonRabbit said:
He doesn’t regard us as shoulder to shoulder, although UK government still spinning that impression out for internal consumption.kle4 said:
Moved on from the more harmonious talk of allies, which is fair enough.MoonRabbit said:
“The EU is preparing to freeze the assets of Russia’s president Vladimir Putin and foreign minister Sergei Lavrov as part of a third round of sanctions against Russia, the Financial Times reports.”CarlottaVance said:Italian prime minister Mario Draghi successfully secured a carve out for Italian luxury goods from the EU's package of economic sanctions against Nato, EU dip tells me. 'Apparently selling Gucci loafers to oligarchs is more of a priority than hitting back at Putin,' source adds.
https://twitter.com/Barnes_Joe/status/1497194009038626842?
Wow! Getting seriously tough on them now then. 🙄
Wasn’t this done years ago? How many times down the years can they keep announcing this?
Meanwhile, Zelenskiy latest address has said:
* UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT ACCUSES EUROPE OF INSUFFICIENT REACTION, SLOW HELP TO UKRAINE
* UKRAINE’S ZELENSKIY SAYS RUSSIAN ASSAULT LIKE REPEAT OF WORLD WAR TWO UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT CALLS ON EUROPEAN CITIZENS TO PROTEST TO FORCE THEIR GOVERNMENTS TO MORE DECISIVELY
What do we make of this bit. Does Zelenskiy really want to surrender to neutrality in talks with Putin?
Volodymyr Zelenskiy’s recent comments as he called on Vladimir Putin to sit return to the negotiation table.
In a televised statement today, Zelenskiy said he is calling on the Russian leader to negotiate to put an end to the fighting.
Will Zelenskiy stay alive to allow Moscow to use him as a puppet? Or give himself both barrels like Allende. Or flee to Spain like Peron?
Allende shot himself rather than be used as a puppet. Will Zelenskiy Putin puppet and neutral Ukraine be the end game and some sort of closure? If so, it means the NATO position of not really helping, and the fact sanctions and other help has been rubbish is justified, and could have come from our intelligence suggesting Zelenskiy would end up doing this?
My prediction is Zelenskiy will be in Moscow having talks very soon.
Does PB think Zelenskiy is serious about discussing Ukraine neutrality with Moscow?
Also, in the crunch, as West never really stood shoulder to shoulder with Ukraine, either militarily or with strong sanctions, this may just have pushed Ukraine government a little bit back East. The tricky Eastern Ukraine border would calm down to.
“ it would be less of a headache for the West to accept that even if officially they csnt say it. “ as you say, NATO HQ, EU, Washington, London would all sigh privately - thank God for that....
Go on spell out what you think.0 -
I wonder how the Russian military establishment will be viewing Putin if that happens.Foxy said:
I think that highly likely.CarlottaVance said:What's clear is that is that if Moscow had hopes of quick and easy gains, they were terribly optimistic. My main concern is that over time the Russian military may revert to heavy use of firepower, and this will result in immense destruction, and large civilian casualties.
https://twitter.com/KofmanMichael/status/1497227242233077766?
City fighting evens things up a lot. Plenty of cover for snipers and anti tank weapons. Use of air power and artillery highly destructive, as we saw in Syria. I think that would be the Russian plan B.0 -
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Bloody fool thing to do if so. What's the first rule when facing a coup? Don't Piss Off The Army.Leon said:
I wonder if there is a coup being plotted - he is 69 - and this is a desperate distraction he has createdOmnium said:
No maybe about it.RandallFlagg said:
Maybe Putin really has gone completely mental.Gardenwalker said:Russia has warned Finland, Sweden of military consequences if they seek to join NATO.
https://twitter.com/jasongroves1/status/1497222749252632583?s=211 -
Side benefit of Brexit - one less Putinist mole at the EU emergency summit.0
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I can't see it doing Le Pen much good either.ydoethur said:
Ironically, Trump, who got elected by telling people what they wanted to hear, is now pro-vaccine and pro-Putin when his supporters are not.NorthofStoke said:
Dare we hope that Putin's miscalculation will not only result in his own removal but also the end of Trump's malign influence?Mexicanpete said:
Nonetheless a former President, former Mayor of NY, ex-Editor of Breitbart and most Fox News presenters remain behind the eight ball.CarlottaVance said:The view of the American public:
Views of Russia are tanking.
85% now view it unfavorably -- the highest since the end of the Cold War.
http://on.gallup.com/3BRjqP1
https://twitter.com/AaronBlake/status/1497199646699102209
They were a lot faster off the mark than some of their politicians during the Falklands too.
That could be costly for him.
Currently 1.86 on Smarkets to not make the second round. Reasonable value. Though Pecresse making it at 5.3 may be better value.
Zemmour and Melenchon have been openly pro Putin too.
https://twitter.com/ChassNews/status/1496948847767334914?t=Sd2GYNVgz0hI-hE7bIeH5Q&s=19
Or maybe just back Macron.
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Sadly the Russians did win in the end and took 10% of pre-war Finnish territory including its second-largest city and only arctic port.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Russians got a bloody nose when they tried to invade in 1939.Peter_the_Punter said:
Seriously, wouldn't the addition of Finland to NATO strengthen it massively?StuartDickson said:
Why stop at Greater Finland? We want Bornholm back. And Trøndelag. And while we’re at it give us back Bremen-Verden, Pomerania and Wismar too. Thieving bastards.LDLF said:I'm not a football expert but judging by general football fan reactions, closing down Chelsea is probably an automatic vote-winner at any time, war or no war.
The number one thing that would damage Russia is if the West (that includes us, but particularly the EU as well) stops buying from them. This is difficult to do as so many raw materials come from there.
En passant: by Vlad's logic, if he takes Kiev will he be giving Saint Petersburg back to Sweden?
Come to think of it, it was us who invented Kievan Russia…
It has a huge land border with Russia. NATO could conduct 'exercises' along it all year round and the Russians would be obliged to post large numbers of troops on their side 'just in case'.
I do believe attitudes towards NATO have changed markedly in Finland of late. The Finns of course have every reason to be hostile and suspicious towards the Russians.
OTOH, Stalin almost certainly wanted to at least impose a communist government, and set up in the border town of Terijoki the so-called Finnish Democratic Republic as an alternative regime. Probably the FDR would have then "requested" to be admitted to the USSR, similar to how the imposed communist governments of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania did in 1940.0 -
There was also some admiration for the way the Finns fought. Their mobile, ski-based guerrilla tactics were made use of on the Eastern Front by the Soviets.NickPalmer said:
42-28 were against joining in January and the PM ruled it out, according to this:Peter_the_Punter said:
Seriously, wouldn't the addition of Finland to NATO strengthen it massively?StuartDickson said:
Why stop at Greater Finland? We want Bornholm back. And Trøndelag. And while we’re at it give us back Bremen-Verden, Pomerania and Wismar too. Thieving bastards.LDLF said:I'm not a football expert but judging by general football fan reactions, closing down Chelsea is probably an automatic vote-winner at any time, war or no war.
The number one thing that would damage Russia is if the West (that includes us, but particularly the EU as well) stops buying from them. This is difficult to do as so many raw materials come from there.
En passant: by Vlad's logic, if he takes Kiev will he be giving Saint Petersburg back to Sweden?
Come to think of it, it was us who invented Kievan Russia…
It has a huge land border with Russia. NATO could conduct 'exercises' along it all year round and the Russians would be obliged to post large numbers of troops on their side 'just in case'.
I do believe attitudes towards NATO have changed markedly in Finland of late. The Finns of course have every reason to be hostile and suspicious towards the Russians.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/finlands-pm-says-nato-membership-is-very-unlikely-her-watch-2022-01-19/
Recent events may have shifted attitudes, though. A Feb poll by the Farmers' Union suggests 45-33 in favour:
https://yle.fi/news/3-12305027#:~:text=A fresh poll commissioned and published by the,that membership were recommended by the nation's leaders
I've never heard of Russia showing any real interest in Finland since WW2, though others may know otherwise. As neighbourly relations go, everyone seemed to move on after Russia had attacked Finland and Finland had then allied with Germany to attack Russia - you'd think it would have left lasting bad feeling, but it apprently didn't, perhaps because Finland has been ostentiously neutral ever since (which is why the PM is still reluctant). Active dislike between Russia and the Baltic States is far more intense, and there it really is NATO membership which is likely to be a deterrent.0 -
I think its interesting that they are allowed to broadcast their misinformation on YouTube without sanction. YouTube and other social media companies have been quick to shut down others who continually broadcast falsehoods.CarlottaVance said:
Because OFCOM are still investigating.Mexicanpete said:
Point of order.CarlottaVance said:
Any messages home from conscripts are unlikely to conform to the official version.NorthofStoke said:
From some of the reputable news reports it appears he hasn't prepared Russian public opinion for this. I'm beginning to think that he genuinely believed there was a lot of pro-invasion support in Ukraine itself. If the Ukrainians have scattered lots of small units with modern anti-tank weapons and they have the morale to fight then Russian casualties will be large.williamglenn said:I think Putin's domestic position will come under increasing pressure and he'll end up with the perfect storm of street protests coinciding with elite discontent. I just hope Zelensky lives to see it.
Why are RT still broadcasting on UK Freeview?
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Putin's not a leftie either!MoonRabbit said:
LOL 😂 it’s quite clear from 2500 posts I’m not a Putinist, nor a leftie!JosiasJessop said:
Ah, two cheeks of the same Putinist arse.Heathener said:
I agree completely.MoonRabbit said:
This Ukraine Crisis could, likely will, quickly subside into nothing from here now, with ceasefire, Ukraine surrender, talks in Moscow between the governments.IshmaelZ said:
I think we will be fine. this is more a "in a fit of pique he decided to napalm Cheltenham" moment. I would be betting on Putin out of office by y/e if I were not so heavily invested in BJ being out of office, errm, worryingly soonTheScreamingEagles said:I'm feeling rather pessimistic at the moment.
The further invasion of Ukraine feels like a Sudetenland 1938 moment.
The reckoning on Boris is not cancelled till summer, it’s coming as soon as this thing dies down as the lazy and poor way he has handled the crisis only adds to the reasons to replace him.
Russia will have overrun Ukraine by the end of the weekend and I'm afraid it will subside as news until the next of Putin's atrocities threatens to wake us up.
We will back to domestic politics very soon.
We may see this is appalling (it is) but MoonRabbit is right.0 -
The irony of course is that if there is trouble in Russia over a bungled invasion it will be social media that spreads the information...FrancisUrquhart said:
I think its interesting that they are allowed to broadcast their misinformation on YouTube without sanction. YouTube and other social media companies have been quick to shut down others who continually broadcast falsehoods.CarlottaVance said:
Because OFCOM are still investigating.Mexicanpete said:
Point of order.CarlottaVance said:
Any messages home from conscripts are unlikely to conform to the official version.NorthofStoke said:
From some of the reputable news reports it appears he hasn't prepared Russian public opinion for this. I'm beginning to think that he genuinely believed there was a lot of pro-invasion support in Ukraine itself. If the Ukrainians have scattered lots of small units with modern anti-tank weapons and they have the morale to fight then Russian casualties will be large.williamglenn said:I think Putin's domestic position will come under increasing pressure and he'll end up with the perfect storm of street protests coinciding with elite discontent. I just hope Zelensky lives to see it.
Why are RT still broadcasting on UK Freeview?0 -
Sweden?Gardenwalker said:Russia has warned Finland, Sweden of military consequences if they seek to join NATO.
https://twitter.com/jasongroves1/status/1497222749252632583?s=21
He truly has lost it.4 -
Draghi is most certainly not a twit.CarlottaVance said:Draghi really is a twit - I wonder what possibly might have delayed the President of Ukraine from ordering some fine leather goods taking a phone call?
Italian PM Draghi: "We had a phone appointment at 9.30am [with Zelensky], but it was not possible to make the call, he was no longer available."
Yes, PM #Draghi, Ukrainians are busy with tanks and rockets. Italy is not helping much. #SWIFT
That remark led to a flurry of stories about Zelenskyy having fled Kyiv…..notably promoted by China State media.0 -
Ah your spelling is off should be 'footling' !WhisperingOracle said:
What an absolute fu***ing lunatic. And I rarely swear.Gardenwalker said:Russia has warned Finland, Sweden of military consequences if they seek to join NATO.
https://twitter.com/jasongroves1/status/1497222749252632583?s=211 -
Jumping the gun and being probably overly optimistic I hope very much that, if Russia has to withdraw with their tails between their legs, absolutely none of the sanctions in place will be removed at all until Russia pays Ukraine giant reparations from their foreign currency reserve.
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Disaster backpedalling from all sorts of Russians. Fuck off.
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Germany‘s 5000 helmets are finally on their way in two trucks. They will be given to the Ukrainian authorities outside their country, in order to avoid any risk for the German side, according to @dpa
https://twitter.com/hemicker/status/14972308572072632390 -
Suggests if Scotland ever got independence if an indyref2 was allowed by the UK government and a Yes vote which Westminster implemented, then Putin would also threaten Scotland if it tried to join NATO.dixiedean said:
Sweden?Gardenwalker said:Russia has warned Finland, Sweden of military consequences if they seek to join NATO.
https://twitter.com/jasongroves1/status/1497222749252632583?s=21
He truly has lost it.
Salmond as head of a puppet regime even1 -
"The war started because of the vile Russians and their villainous empire-building!"Taz said:
Pants on his head, pencils up his nose.RandallFlagg said:
Maybe Putin really has gone completely mental.Gardenwalker said:Russia has warned Finland, Sweden of military consequences if they seek to join NATO.
https://twitter.com/jasongroves1/status/1497222749252632583?s=211 -
Putin calling on the Ukrainian army to overthrow its own government.
That really is having lost all touch with reality.1 -
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LXXA6hsATDELeon said:That Snake Island audio. My God. Russia is dishonoured in front of the whole world. Shameful
And those brave Ukrainians. Dudes0 -
The type of error to be expected from a modern historian. The true rule is that if the Praetorian Guard is on side and paid up to date, the rest of the army can go screw itself.ydoethur said:
Bloody fool thing to do if so. What's the first rule when facing a coup? Don't Piss Off The Army.Leon said:
I wonder if there is a coup being plotted - he is 69 - and this is a desperate distraction he has createdOmnium said:
No maybe about it.RandallFlagg said:
Maybe Putin really has gone completely mental.Gardenwalker said:Russia has warned Finland, Sweden of military consequences if they seek to join NATO.
https://twitter.com/jasongroves1/status/1497222749252632583?s=21
Wallace's "tonto" diagnosis is surprsingly bang on the money. I expect things to get very very messy in the Kremlin, but regime change is coming, and if the new regime wants to ingratiate itself with the army it will withdraw.0 -
Wish you better, Cyclefree, and do take care. Those things can be very nasty.Cyclefree said:Well, am back in A&E following a 111 call. A daft thing really but tiresome - a thumb infection which has lasted a week and is now getting worse and painful. I'll spare you the gory details.
3rd time in 2 years my immune system has been unable to fight off a small infection. Not ideal.
The wait is estimated to be 5 hours .........
Infuriatingly it's quite spring like outside .....4 -
https://twitter.com/aletweetsnews/status/1497008826201124870BigRich said:
I haven't heard/seen that, Do you have a link?Leon said:That Snake Island audio. My God. Russia is dishonoured in front of the whole world. Shameful
And those brave Ukrainians. Dudes0 -
Well I am right of centre, but It’s true though that once this crisis recedes and domestic politics truce eased off, the questions of Tory Party embracing money from Russia, McMafia Oligarchs and China, and the whitewashed Russia interference report, especially from between Salisbury outrage and Ukraine invasion, is going to be top of the political agenda for some time, isn’t it? Partly because Boris is an attack minded politician, he pulled the rug from under Starmer’s attack on Wednesday by referring to Barry Gardner, so question marks how this lazy politician will play it.felix said:
Everyone who disagrees is an 'extreme right-winger' in Heathener's world.Richard_Tyndall said:
If you consider JJ to be a right winger then your whole political compass is terminally skewed.Heathener said:
You're a really unpleasant extreme right winger.JosiasJessop said:
Ah, two cheeks of the same Putinist arse.Heathener said:
I agree completely.MoonRabbit said:
This Ukraine Crisis could, likely will, quickly subside into nothing from here now, with ceasefire, Ukraine surrender, talks in Moscow between the governments.IshmaelZ said:
I think we will be fine. this is more a "in a fit of pique he decided to napalm Cheltenham" moment. I would be betting on Putin out of office by y/e if I were not so heavily invested in BJ being out of office, errm, worryingly soonTheScreamingEagles said:I'm feeling rather pessimistic at the moment.
The further invasion of Ukraine feels like a Sudetenland 1938 moment.
The reckoning on Boris is not cancelled till summer, it’s coming as soon as this thing dies down as the lazy and poor way he has handled the crisis only adds to the reasons to replace him.
Russia will have overrun Ukraine by the end of the weekend and I'm afraid it will subside as news until the next of Putin's atrocities threatens to wake us up.
We will back to domestic politics very soon.
We may see this is appalling (it is) but MoonRabbit is right.
I posted a sensible comment and you resorted to your usual pompous bellicosity.
(p.s. I loathe Putin)1 -
And withdraws form the Crimean Peninsular.boulay said:Jumping the gun and being probably overly optimistic I hope very much that, if Russia has to withdraw with their tails between their legs, absolutely none of the sanctions in place will be removed at all until Russia pays Ukraine giant reparations from their foreign currency reserve.
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Romanian (so NATO) ship hit earlier was actually Moldovan (so neutral)
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/russian-forces-fire-neutral-european-263298320 -
You think he was deliberately helping the Russian cause?Mango said:
Draghi is most certainly not a twit.CarlottaVance said:Draghi really is a twit - I wonder what possibly might have delayed the President of Ukraine from ordering some fine leather goods taking a phone call?
Italian PM Draghi: "We had a phone appointment at 9.30am [with Zelensky], but it was not possible to make the call, he was no longer available."
Yes, PM #Draghi, Ukrainians are busy with tanks and rockets. Italy is not helping much. #SWIFT
That remark led to a flurry of stories about Zelenskyy having fled Kyiv…..notably promoted by China State media.
1 -
The Moldovans are saying they believe it was a Ukrainian registered ship but (ironically) with a Russian crew.BlancheLivermore said:Romanian (so NATO) ship hit earlier was actually Moldovan (so neutral)
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/russian-forces-fire-neutral-european-263298320 -
Squad of Chechen special forces ‘hunters’ is unleashed in Ukraine to detain - or kill - Kyiv officials
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10551327/Chechen-special-forces-hunters-unleashed-Ukraine-detain-kill-Kyiv-officials.html0 -
You mean it’s time to give good old vlad six of the best, trousers down ?Sunil_Prasannan said:
"The war started because of the vile Russians and their villainous empire-building!"Taz said:
Pants on his head, pencils up his nose.RandallFlagg said:
Maybe Putin really has gone completely mental.Gardenwalker said:Russia has warned Finland, Sweden of military consequences if they seek to join NATO.
https://twitter.com/jasongroves1/status/1497222749252632583?s=210 -
Putins speech earlier in the week was a paradigm shift, intentionally or otherwise. It was seen as a claim on Finland, as much as it was on Ukraine and other parts of Eastern Europe. If Russia no longer respects Finlands status and neutrality, then Finland has to get ready to fight Russia again. NATO membership is the logical conclusion, as Finlands 200,000 (ish?) strong standing army could be otherwise be overrun, although Russia would perhaps find it difficult to govern after the invasion.NickPalmer said:
42-28 were against joining in January and the PM ruled it out, according to this:Peter_the_Punter said:
Seriously, wouldn't the addition of Finland to NATO strengthen it massively?StuartDickson said:
Why stop at Greater Finland? We want Bornholm back. And Trøndelag. And while we’re at it give us back Bremen-Verden, Pomerania and Wismar too. Thieving bastards.LDLF said:I'm not a football expert but judging by general football fan reactions, closing down Chelsea is probably an automatic vote-winner at any time, war or no war.
The number one thing that would damage Russia is if the West (that includes us, but particularly the EU as well) stops buying from them. This is difficult to do as so many raw materials come from there.
En passant: by Vlad's logic, if he takes Kiev will he be giving Saint Petersburg back to Sweden?
Come to think of it, it was us who invented Kievan Russia…
It has a huge land border with Russia. NATO could conduct 'exercises' along it all year round and the Russians would be obliged to post large numbers of troops on their side 'just in case'.
I do believe attitudes towards NATO have changed markedly in Finland of late. The Finns of course have every reason to be hostile and suspicious towards the Russians.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/finlands-pm-says-nato-membership-is-very-unlikely-her-watch-2022-01-19/
Recent events may have shifted attitudes, though. A Feb poll by the Farmers' Union suggests 45-33 in favour:
https://yle.fi/news/3-12305027#:~:text=A fresh poll commissioned and published by the,that membership were recommended by the nation's leaders
I've never heard of Russia showing any real interest in Finland since WW2, though others may know otherwise. As neighbourly relations go, everyone seemed to move on after Russia had attacked Finland and Finland had then allied with Germany to attack Russia - you'd think it would have left lasting bad feeling, but it apprently didn't, perhaps because Finland has been ostentiously neutral ever since (which is why the PM is still reluctant). Active dislike between Russia and the Baltic States is far more intense, and there it really is NATO membership which is likely to be a deterrent.1 -
Russia appears to have lost some of its momentum, still hasn't achieved air superiority over Ukraine - US official
https://twitter.com/phildstewart/status/14972344817945845801 -
Putin's statement today suggests Russia would invade any non NATO member in Europe which applied for NATO membership, even Finland and Sweden.darkage said:
Putins speech earlier in the week was a paradigm shift, intentionally or otherwise. It was seen as a claim on Finland, as much as it was on Ukraine and other parts of Eastern Europe. If Russia no longer respects Finlands status and neutrality, then Finland has to get ready to fight Russia again. NATO membership is the logical conclusion, as Finlands 200,000 (ish?) strong standing army could be otherwise be overrun, although Russia would perhaps find it difficult to govern after the invasion.NickPalmer said:
42-28 were against joining in January and the PM ruled it out, according to this:Peter_the_Punter said:
Seriously, wouldn't the addition of Finland to NATO strengthen it massively?StuartDickson said:
Why stop at Greater Finland? We want Bornholm back. And Trøndelag. And while we’re at it give us back Bremen-Verden, Pomerania and Wismar too. Thieving bastards.LDLF said:I'm not a football expert but judging by general football fan reactions, closing down Chelsea is probably an automatic vote-winner at any time, war or no war.
The number one thing that would damage Russia is if the West (that includes us, but particularly the EU as well) stops buying from them. This is difficult to do as so many raw materials come from there.
En passant: by Vlad's logic, if he takes Kiev will he be giving Saint Petersburg back to Sweden?
Come to think of it, it was us who invented Kievan Russia…
It has a huge land border with Russia. NATO could conduct 'exercises' along it all year round and the Russians would be obliged to post large numbers of troops on their side 'just in case'.
I do believe attitudes towards NATO have changed markedly in Finland of late. The Finns of course have every reason to be hostile and suspicious towards the Russians.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/finlands-pm-says-nato-membership-is-very-unlikely-her-watch-2022-01-19/
Recent events may have shifted attitudes, though. A Feb poll by the Farmers' Union suggests 45-33 in favour:
https://yle.fi/news/3-12305027#:~:text=A fresh poll commissioned and published by the,that membership were recommended by the nation's leaders
I've never heard of Russia showing any real interest in Finland since WW2, though others may know otherwise. As neighbourly relations go, everyone seemed to move on after Russia had attacked Finland and Finland had then allied with Germany to attack Russia - you'd think it would have left lasting bad feeling, but it apprently didn't, perhaps because Finland has been ostentiously neutral ever since (which is why the PM is still reluctant). Active dislike between Russia and the Baltic States is far more intense, and there it really is NATO membership which is likely to be a deterrent.
Unfortunately for both it looks like that ship has sailed and they will have to heavily spend more on their own defence0 -
Generally YouTubs policy's annoy me.FrancisUrquhart said:
I think its interesting that they are allowed to broadcast their misinformation on YouTube without sanction. YouTube and other social media companies have been quick to shut down others who continually broadcast falsehoods.CarlottaVance said:
Because OFCOM are still investigating.Mexicanpete said:
Point of order.CarlottaVance said:
Any messages home from conscripts are unlikely to conform to the official version.NorthofStoke said:
From some of the reputable news reports it appears he hasn't prepared Russian public opinion for this. I'm beginning to think that he genuinely believed there was a lot of pro-invasion support in Ukraine itself. If the Ukrainians have scattered lots of small units with modern anti-tank weapons and they have the morale to fight then Russian casualties will be large.williamglenn said:I think Putin's domestic position will come under increasing pressure and he'll end up with the perfect storm of street protests coinciding with elite discontent. I just hope Zelensky lives to see it.
Why are RT still broadcasting on UK Freeview?
However at this point in time is probably good for youTube not to give Russia an excuse to ban Youtube in Russia. Yes there would be workarounds VPNs and so n but not everybody uses one of those, and videos of Russian tanks burning, and Ukrainians resisting, will, I suspect be the thing that terns Russian public opinion against Putin.0 -
Holy fuck - just seen Putin’s address to his permanent security council where he blames US advisers corrupting the Ukrainians and the whole drug addled bit.
He doesn’t look remotely well!
It’s almost funny if it wasn’t for the completely sickening, pointless, tragic deaths being caused by this dough faced murdering fuck.
He’s almost turned into a comedy character from the Death of Stalin and I’m hoping he goes very soon like Beria.1 -
I'm not sure whether to laugh or not, but as a glorious act of defiance it puts Cambronne's famous (and apocryphal) 'merde' at Waterloo rather in the shade. Even if it ended rather more tragically for those sending it than it did for Cambronne.williamglenn said:
https://twitter.com/aletweetsnews/status/1497008826201124870BigRich said:
I haven't heard/seen that, Do you have a link?Leon said:That Snake Island audio. My God. Russia is dishonoured in front of the whole world. Shameful
And those brave Ukrainians. Dudes1 -
Stopping russian government bond sales in London and NY would be interesting. Investors want to buy them in London or NY because of legal protections and the ability of the courts to pass and enforce judgements against state actors. It could genuinely cripple the Russian state because no sensible investors would buy Russian government bonds sold under Russian or even EU law.6
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So just to be clear - the Russians are so confused they're now firing at their own people?Richard_Tyndall said:
The Moldovans are saying they believe it was a Ukrainian registered ship but (ironically) with a Russian crew.BlancheLivermore said:Romanian (so NATO) ship hit earlier was actually Moldovan (so neutral)
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/russian-forces-fire-neutral-european-26329832
This is extraordinary.0 -
Not nice.Cyclefree said:Well, am back in A&E following a 111 call. A daft thing really but tiresome - a thumb infection which has lasted a week and is now getting worse and painful. I'll spare you the gory details.
3rd time in 2 years my immune system has been unable to fight off a small infection. Not ideal.
The wait is estimated to be 5 hours .........
Infuriatingly it's quite spring like outside .....
Right not to neglect such things as they can turn nasty very quickly. Hope you're better soon.1 -
Who have you cast as Khrushchev and Zhukov?boulay said:Holy fuck - just seen Putin’s address to his permanent security council where he blames US advisers corrupting the Ukrainians and the whole drug addled bit.
He doesn’t look remotely well!
It’s almost funny if it wasn’t for the completely sickening, pointless, tragic deaths being caused by this dough faced murdering fuck.
He’s almost turned into a comedy character from the Death of Stalin and I’m hoping he goes very soon like Beria.0 -
If true, that's very surprising.CarlottaVance said:Russia appears to have lost some of its momentum, still hasn't achieved air superiority over Ukraine - US official
https://twitter.com/phildstewart/status/1497234481794584580
However, it might mean that poor Ukrainian resistance on the ground hasn't made it worth putting too many aircraft into an environment with many MANPADs - in other words, they haven't needed air superiority. I hope that's not the case.0 -
The Ukranian government has given out 18,000 guns to all civilians who wish to stay and help defend Kyiv
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-605174470 -
Juergen F 🧑🚒🚒🇵🇱 🇮🇱@Koenigstiger59CarlottaVance said:Germany‘s 5000 helmets are finally on their way in two trucks. They will be given to the Ukrainian authorities outside their country, in order to avoid any risk for the German side, according to @dpa
https://twitter.com/hemicker/status/1497230857207263239
Vienna's mayor has sent 3 trucks with FFP2 protective masks to Kiev. is even more embarrassing.
https://twitter.com/Koenigstiger59/status/14972361170532188170 -
Michael Kofman
@KofmanMichael
·
42m
What's clear is that is that if Moscow had hopes of quick and easy gains, they were terribly optimistic. My main concern is that over time the Russian military may revert to heavy use of firepower, and this will result in immense destruction, and large civilian casualties.
https://twitter.com/KofmanMichael1 -
Even if this is only half a quarter right, this is no walk in the park:
Russia has lost 2,800 troops, 80 tanks, 516 armored vehicles, 10 airplanes, and 7 helicopters in its invasion of Ukraine: [Ukrainian] deputy defense minister.
Numbers as of 3pm Ukraine time.
https://twitter.com/JackDetsch/status/14972143262136524804 -
Q - "Should I tell him to go fuck himself?"ydoethur said:
I'm not sure whether to laugh or not, but as a glorious act of defiance it puts Cambronne's famous (and apocryphal) 'merde' at Waterloo rather in the shade. Even if it ended rather more tragically for those sending it than it did for Cambronne.williamglenn said:
https://twitter.com/aletweetsnews/status/1497008826201124870BigRich said:
I haven't heard/seen that, Do you have a link?Leon said:That Snake Island audio. My God. Russia is dishonoured in front of the whole world. Shameful
And those brave Ukrainians. Dudes
A - "Just in case"
Sounded like the answer was from a woman?0 -
I was just reading up on klitschko brothers, I didn't realise that they were actually born in Kyrgyzstan and their father was a Soviet Air Force major general who was based all across the former USSR.
Its a glimpse into how complex many people's family roots are in that part of the world.2 -
And this is how Putin's hideous adventurism spreads. This time we were lucky. It won't be hard for other countries to get dragged in. Another MH17?BlancheLivermore said:Romanian (so NATO) ship hit earlier was actually Moldovan (so neutral)
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/russian-forces-fire-neutral-european-263298320 -
Idrees Ali
@idreesali114
U.S. defense official says Russian advance towards Kyiv going slower than Russia anticipated and advance towards Kharkiv still contested.
U.S. has indications that amphibious assault underway west of Mariupol, official says.
U.S. official says Russia has not taken any population centers and they do not have air superiority over country. Russia has so far launched more 200 missiles against Ukrainian targets, official says.
U.S assesses Russia has committed third of forces around Ukraine to offensive, official says .
https://twitter.com/idreesali114/status/14972334169490513930 -
The Russian condition for talks is that the Ukrainians put down their weapons - ie surrender. It would be a one way trip for Zelensky.MoonRabbit said:
Does Putin have a stronger easier alternative than use Zelenskiy, if Zelenskiy willing to talk on that?Nigelb said:
if you think that's the limit of Putin's demands, then I think you're being naive.MoonRabbit said:
I think that right. What it effectively means is constitution no longer calls for NATO membership - they have never even put in an application and even the most ardent NATO supporters on this forum reckon there’s no chance of it being approved?kle4 said:
I think it would be neutrality at the point of a gun, but he'd be under a lot of pressure from all sides to agree that as privately it would be less of a headache for the West to accept that even if officially they csnt say it.MoonRabbit said:
It could be I agree with you. But if Russia dictate where, Zelenskiy will be flown to Moscow as I suspect.darkage said:
Presumably the negotiations could be done on Teams/Zoom?MoonRabbit said:
He doesn’t regard us as shoulder to shoulder, although UK government still spinning that impression out for internal consumption.kle4 said:
Moved on from the more harmonious talk of allies, which is fair enough.MoonRabbit said:
“The EU is preparing to freeze the assets of Russia’s president Vladimir Putin and foreign minister Sergei Lavrov as part of a third round of sanctions against Russia, the Financial Times reports.”CarlottaVance said:Italian prime minister Mario Draghi successfully secured a carve out for Italian luxury goods from the EU's package of economic sanctions against Nato, EU dip tells me. 'Apparently selling Gucci loafers to oligarchs is more of a priority than hitting back at Putin,' source adds.
https://twitter.com/Barnes_Joe/status/1497194009038626842?
Wow! Getting seriously tough on them now then. 🙄
Wasn’t this done years ago? How many times down the years can they keep announcing this?
Meanwhile, Zelenskiy latest address has said:
* UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT ACCUSES EUROPE OF INSUFFICIENT REACTION, SLOW HELP TO UKRAINE
* UKRAINE’S ZELENSKIY SAYS RUSSIAN ASSAULT LIKE REPEAT OF WORLD WAR TWO UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT CALLS ON EUROPEAN CITIZENS TO PROTEST TO FORCE THEIR GOVERNMENTS TO MORE DECISIVELY
What do we make of this bit. Does Zelenskiy really want to surrender to neutrality in talks with Putin?
Volodymyr Zelenskiy’s recent comments as he called on Vladimir Putin to sit return to the negotiation table.
In a televised statement today, Zelenskiy said he is calling on the Russian leader to negotiate to put an end to the fighting.
Will Zelenskiy stay alive to allow Moscow to use him as a puppet? Or give himself both barrels like Allende. Or flee to Spain like Peron?
Allende shot himself rather than be used as a puppet. Will Zelenskiy Putin puppet and neutral Ukraine be the end game and some sort of closure? If so, it means the NATO position of not really helping, and the fact sanctions and other help has been rubbish is justified, and could have come from our intelligence suggesting Zelenskiy would end up doing this?
My prediction is Zelenskiy will be in Moscow having talks very soon.
Does PB think Zelenskiy is serious about discussing Ukraine neutrality with Moscow?
Also, in the crunch, as West never really stood shoulder to shoulder with Ukraine, either militarily or with strong sanctions, this may just have pushed Ukraine government a little bit back East. The tricky Eastern Ukraine border would calm down to.
“ it would be less of a headache for the West to accept that even if officially they csnt say it. “ as you say, NATO HQ, EU, Washington, London would all sigh privately - thank God for that....
Go on spell out what you think.1 -
I think he's beginning to realise the scale of the task ahead and just how many losses Russia will end up having to take to get control of the government apparatus.dixiedean said:Putin calling on the Ukrainian army to overthrow its own government.
That really is having lost all touch with reality.2 -
It's one thing using your air force to bomb cities in far-away Syria, quite another to do that to cities in next door Ukraine. So not really an option, surely.nico679 said:Russia doesn’t want street battles as the body bags would pile up and that would result in higher Ukrainian civilian casualties.
Given many Russians have family links with Ukraine this could cause problems for Putin.
And the thought of hand-to-hand fighting...Jeez. (BBC just reported that 18,000 guns have been given to volunteers, alongside instructions to make Molotov cocktail).
Could be extraordinarily ugly. Has Vlad really thought this through?2 -
You never heard of "friendly fire"?ydoethur said:
So just to be clear - the Russians are so confused they're now firing at their own people?Richard_Tyndall said:
The Moldovans are saying they believe it was a Ukrainian registered ship but (ironically) with a Russian crew.BlancheLivermore said:Romanian (so NATO) ship hit earlier was actually Moldovan (so neutral)
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/russian-forces-fire-neutral-european-26329832
This is extraordinary.
Here's an example in the North Sea:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogger_Bank_incident0 -
Oh, they can do both. In fact, it's well known they have been.noneoftheabove said:
I think the Russians have found it more successful to fund fringe Western political ideas and leaders that cause division and chaos.JosiasJessop said:
It's just that if I was a paid to post stuff to benefit Russia in this current environment, on a board with a generally (*) intelligent readership and posters, I would post the stuff you are. "Oh of course I hate Putin. But look, it'll all blow over and Boris is really at fault. He needs replacing."Heathener said:
You're a really unpleasant extreme right winger.JosiasJessop said:
Ah, two cheeks of the same Putinist arse.Heathener said:
I agree completely.MoonRabbit said:
This Ukraine Crisis could, likely will, quickly subside into nothing from here now, with ceasefire, Ukraine surrender, talks in Moscow between the governments.IshmaelZ said:
I think we will be fine. this is more a "in a fit of pique he decided to napalm Cheltenham" moment. I would be betting on Putin out of office by y/e if I were not so heavily invested in BJ being out of office, errm, worryingly soonTheScreamingEagles said:I'm feeling rather pessimistic at the moment.
The further invasion of Ukraine feels like a Sudetenland 1938 moment.
The reckoning on Boris is not cancelled till summer, it’s coming as soon as this thing dies down as the lazy and poor way he has handled the crisis only adds to the reasons to replace him.
Russia will have overrun Ukraine by the end of the weekend and I'm afraid it will subside as news until the next of Putin's atrocities threatens to wake us up.
We will back to domestic politics very soon.
We may see this is appalling (it is) but MoonRabbit is right.
I posted a sensible comment and you resorted to your usual pompous bellicosity.
(p.s. I loathe Putin)
Or similar. As you did in your post.
(*) excepting myself
And to be clear: PB may be a fringe website, but it'd be a good target for misinfo because of the readership and the (generally) reasonable quality of comments.0 -
If Putin gets bogged down in a war of attrition lasting weeks - how long before the generals (who are already rumoured to not be happy about Mad Vlad) start to get more seriously uppity?CarlottaVance said:Even if this is only half a quarter right, this is no walk in the park:
Russia has lost 2,800 troops, 80 tanks, 516 armored vehicles, 10 airplanes, and 7 helicopters in its invasion of Ukraine: [Ukrainian] deputy defense minister.
Numbers as of 3pm Ukraine time.
https://twitter.com/JackDetsch/status/1497214326213652480
1 -
boulay said:
Holy fuck - just seen Putin’s address to his permanent security council where he blames US advisers corrupting the Ukrainians and the whole drug addled bit.
He doesn’t look remotely well!
It’s almost funny if it wasn’t for the completely sickening, pointless, tragic deaths being caused by this dough faced murdering fuck.
He’s almost turned into a comedy character from the Death of Stalin and I’m hoping he goes very soon like Beria.
Brezhnev: [points to one of the rifles] I'll take the tall blonde.
1 -
Yes, but this isn't friendly fire, is it? It's targeting the Russian speakers they're supposed to be helping!Sunil_Prasannan said:
You never heard of "friendly fire"?ydoethur said:
So just to be clear - the Russians are so confused they're now firing at their own people?Richard_Tyndall said:
The Moldovans are saying they believe it was a Ukrainian registered ship but (ironically) with a Russian crew.BlancheLivermore said:Romanian (so NATO) ship hit earlier was actually Moldovan (so neutral)
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/russian-forces-fire-neutral-european-26329832
This is extraordinary.
Here's an example in the North Sea:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogger_Bank_incident0 -
I don’t know but I’m desperately hoping this guy replaces Putin (he’s one of Russia’s biggest stars apparently….).ydoethur said:
Who have you cast as Khrushchev and Zhukov?boulay said:Holy fuck - just seen Putin’s address to his permanent security council where he blames US advisers corrupting the Ukrainians and the whole drug addled bit.
He doesn’t look remotely well!
It’s almost funny if it wasn’t for the completely sickening, pointless, tragic deaths being caused by this dough faced murdering fuck.
He’s almost turned into a comedy character from the Death of Stalin and I’m hoping he goes very soon like Beria.
https://youtu.be/989-7xsRLR40 -
He’s not. But so many left wing and right wing minds are hot wired and living in the past, such as the 12 Labour politicians and their letter so predictably supported Putin, they can’t tell the difference from communists or Putin in the Kremlin.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Putin's not a leftie either!MoonRabbit said:
LOL 😂 it’s quite clear from 2500 posts I’m not a Putinist, nor a leftie!JosiasJessop said:
Ah, two cheeks of the same Putinist arse.Heathener said:
I agree completely.MoonRabbit said:
This Ukraine Crisis could, likely will, quickly subside into nothing from here now, with ceasefire, Ukraine surrender, talks in Moscow between the governments.IshmaelZ said:
I think we will be fine. this is more a "in a fit of pique he decided to napalm Cheltenham" moment. I would be betting on Putin out of office by y/e if I were not so heavily invested in BJ being out of office, errm, worryingly soonTheScreamingEagles said:I'm feeling rather pessimistic at the moment.
The further invasion of Ukraine feels like a Sudetenland 1938 moment.
The reckoning on Boris is not cancelled till summer, it’s coming as soon as this thing dies down as the lazy and poor way he has handled the crisis only adds to the reasons to replace him.
Russia will have overrun Ukraine by the end of the weekend and I'm afraid it will subside as news until the next of Putin's atrocities threatens to wake us up.
We will back to domestic politics very soon.
We may see this is appalling (it is) but MoonRabbit is right.
In his last election he campaigned on Conservative values, his support for Russian church etc. sort of things the Marxists had no time for and worse by their actions.0 -
And there are those on here who try to excuse this behaviourBlancheLivermore said:
Juergen F 🧑🚒🚒🇵🇱 🇮🇱@Koenigstiger59CarlottaVance said:Germany‘s 5000 helmets are finally on their way in two trucks. They will be given to the Ukrainian authorities outside their country, in order to avoid any risk for the German side, according to @dpa
https://twitter.com/hemicker/status/1497230857207263239
Vienna's mayor has sent 3 trucks with FFP2 protective masks to Kiev. is even more embarrassing.
https://twitter.com/Koenigstiger59/status/14972361170532188171 -
I have got no idea how how the current situation will pan out. There's what I *want* to happen (Russia to lose, Ukraine to remain a sovereign democratic state), but that's unlikely. We're sitting at the edge of a precipice, and something trivial might knock us over the edge.MoonRabbit said:
LOL 😂 it’s quite clear from 2500 posts I’m not a Putinist, nor a leftie! It’s also clear I’m trying to delve into facts behind the arguments and deliver cold sober analysis and what comes next.JosiasJessop said:
Ah, two cheeks of the same Putinist arse.Heathener said:
I agree completely.MoonRabbit said:
This Ukraine Crisis could, likely will, quickly subside into nothing from here now, with ceasefire, Ukraine surrender, talks in Moscow between the governments.IshmaelZ said:
I think we will be fine. this is more a "in a fit of pique he decided to napalm Cheltenham" moment. I would be betting on Putin out of office by y/e if I were not so heavily invested in BJ being out of office, errm, worryingly soonTheScreamingEagles said:I'm feeling rather pessimistic at the moment.
The further invasion of Ukraine feels like a Sudetenland 1938 moment.
The reckoning on Boris is not cancelled till summer, it’s coming as soon as this thing dies down as the lazy and poor way he has handled the crisis only adds to the reasons to replace him.
Russia will have overrun Ukraine by the end of the weekend and I'm afraid it will subside as news until the next of Putin's atrocities threatens to wake us up.
We will back to domestic politics very soon.
We may see this is appalling (it is) but MoonRabbit is right.
Seriously, Jos, how do you see comings weeks pan out in this war and ceasefire abroad, and politics domestically in UK, that’s different than what I said in this thread?
I think the fact this happened throws up so many questions, once the war abates, the arguments in the West will really intensify. Lots of lessons to be learned, legacy and behaviour to be trashed or defended, between the western powers, but also in each countries domestic politics.
And there is not just the question of how, but why. Some on this forum say Putin mentally I’ll and Russian Nationalist in equal measure, Putin says it’s about security nukes in Cuba style, Trump and supporters say Putin has a point.
I’d like to add a third cause. Deep deep thinking from me, maybe it was Ukraine getting richer in EU in contrast across Russian border that mostly spooks Moscow.
I don't actually care much about the domestic angle atm. Andy anger should be directed firmly where it's needed: Putin.0 -
Probably. Remember, they were border police. In any case, I believe Ukraine does allow women to serve in the army.Malmesbury said:
Q - "Should I tell him to go fuck himself?"ydoethur said:
I'm not sure whether to laugh or not, but as a glorious act of defiance it puts Cambronne's famous (and apocryphal) 'merde' at Waterloo rather in the shade. Even if it ended rather more tragically for those sending it than it did for Cambronne.williamglenn said:
https://twitter.com/aletweetsnews/status/1497008826201124870BigRich said:
I haven't heard/seen that, Do you have a link?Leon said:That Snake Island audio. My God. Russia is dishonoured in front of the whole world. Shameful
And those brave Ukrainians. Dudes
A - "Just in case"
Sounded like the answer was from a woman?1 -
maybe but Biden is hardly in great shape either...war is stressful for everyone even Putinboulay said:Holy fuck - just seen Putin’s address to his permanent security council where he blames US advisers corrupting the Ukrainians and the whole drug addled bit.
He doesn’t look remotely well!
It’s almost funny if it wasn’t for the completely sickening, pointless, tragic deaths being caused by this dough faced murdering fuck.
He’s almost turned into a comedy character from the Death of Stalin and I’m hoping he goes very soon like Beria.0 -
Maybe the Ukrainians are fucking good at Creme Brûlée?CarlottaVance said:Even if this is only half a quarter right, this is no walk in the park:
Russia has lost 2,800 troops, 80 tanks, 516 armored vehicles, 10 airplanes, and 7 helicopters in its invasion of Ukraine: [Ukrainian] deputy defense minister.
Numbers as of 3pm Ukraine time.
https://twitter.com/JackDetsch/status/14972143262136524800 -
Why is it silly? If you had to do it, isn't that what you would do?MoonRabbit said:
This post is just silly Jos, youve shown before you are better than this.JosiasJessop said:
It's just that if I was a paid to post stuff to benefit Russia in this current environment, on a board with a generally (*) intelligent readership and posters, I would post the stuff you are. "Oh of course I hate Putin. But look, it'll all blow over and Boris is really at fault. He needs replacing."Heathener said:
You're a really unpleasant extreme right winger.JosiasJessop said:
Ah, two cheeks of the same Putinist arse.Heathener said:
I agree completely.MoonRabbit said:
This Ukraine Crisis could, likely will, quickly subside into nothing from here now, with ceasefire, Ukraine surrender, talks in Moscow between the governments.IshmaelZ said:
I think we will be fine. this is more a "in a fit of pique he decided to napalm Cheltenham" moment. I would be betting on Putin out of office by y/e if I were not so heavily invested in BJ being out of office, errm, worryingly soonTheScreamingEagles said:I'm feeling rather pessimistic at the moment.
The further invasion of Ukraine feels like a Sudetenland 1938 moment.
The reckoning on Boris is not cancelled till summer, it’s coming as soon as this thing dies down as the lazy and poor way he has handled the crisis only adds to the reasons to replace him.
Russia will have overrun Ukraine by the end of the weekend and I'm afraid it will subside as news until the next of Putin's atrocities threatens to wake us up.
We will back to domestic politics very soon.
We may see this is appalling (it is) but MoonRabbit is right.
I posted a sensible comment and you resorted to your usual pompous bellicosity.
(p.s. I loathe Putin)
Or similar. As you did in your post.
(*) excepting myself
A good sockpuppet would alter their arguments for the audience.0 -
I would have thought it a bad site for misinfo as clearly incorrect things are regularly challenged quickly on here, and it is not easy to share a pb quote with a mass audience anyway (apart from the journalists who enjoy lifting articles from here, changing a few words and claiming them as their own work).JosiasJessop said:
Oh, they can do both. In fact, it's well known they have been.noneoftheabove said:
I think the Russians have found it more successful to fund fringe Western political ideas and leaders that cause division and chaos.JosiasJessop said:
It's just that if I was a paid to post stuff to benefit Russia in this current environment, on a board with a generally (*) intelligent readership and posters, I would post the stuff you are. "Oh of course I hate Putin. But look, it'll all blow over and Boris is really at fault. He needs replacing."Heathener said:
You're a really unpleasant extreme right winger.JosiasJessop said:
Ah, two cheeks of the same Putinist arse.Heathener said:
I agree completely.MoonRabbit said:
This Ukraine Crisis could, likely will, quickly subside into nothing from here now, with ceasefire, Ukraine surrender, talks in Moscow between the governments.IshmaelZ said:
I think we will be fine. this is more a "in a fit of pique he decided to napalm Cheltenham" moment. I would be betting on Putin out of office by y/e if I were not so heavily invested in BJ being out of office, errm, worryingly soonTheScreamingEagles said:I'm feeling rather pessimistic at the moment.
The further invasion of Ukraine feels like a Sudetenland 1938 moment.
The reckoning on Boris is not cancelled till summer, it’s coming as soon as this thing dies down as the lazy and poor way he has handled the crisis only adds to the reasons to replace him.
Russia will have overrun Ukraine by the end of the weekend and I'm afraid it will subside as news until the next of Putin's atrocities threatens to wake us up.
We will back to domestic politics very soon.
We may see this is appalling (it is) but MoonRabbit is right.
I posted a sensible comment and you resorted to your usual pompous bellicosity.
(p.s. I loathe Putin)
Or similar. As you did in your post.
(*) excepting myself
And to be clear: PB may be a fringe website, but it'd be a good target for misinfo because of the readership and the (generally) reasonable quality of comments.2 -
Then maybe he shouldn't have fecking started one.PJohnson said:
maybe but Biden is hardly in great shape either...war is stressful for everyone even Putinboulay said:Holy fuck - just seen Putin’s address to his permanent security council where he blames US advisers corrupting the Ukrainians and the whole drug addled bit.
He doesn’t look remotely well!
It’s almost funny if it wasn’t for the completely sickening, pointless, tragic deaths being caused by this dough faced murdering fuck.
He’s almost turned into a comedy character from the Death of Stalin and I’m hoping he goes very soon like Beria.3 -
It's for the consumption of his own people. They know he is lying. He knows they know he is lying. And so on...dixiedean said:Putin calling on the Ukrainian army to overthrow its own government.
That really is having lost all touch with reality.0 -
the reason some right wingers support Putin by the way is they see him as potentially defending Christian values against a woke decadent west...they may be wrong but thats their reasoning0
-
What are you on about?HYUFD said:
Suggests if Scotland ever got independence if an indyref2 was allowed by the UK government and a Yes vote which Westminster implemented, then Putin would also threaten Scotland if it tried to join NATO.dixiedean said:
Sweden?Gardenwalker said:Russia has warned Finland, Sweden of military consequences if they seek to join NATO.
https://twitter.com/jasongroves1/status/1497222749252632583?s=21
He truly has lost it.
Salmond as head of a puppet regime even1 -
Yeah even at 10% of those numbers that's more that Putin expected to lose over the whole conflict. If that's even close to correct the pressure at home will start building as husbands, brothers, sons and fathers start coming home in body bags.CarlottaVance said:Even if this is only half a quarter right, this is no walk in the park:
Russia has lost 2,800 troops, 80 tanks, 516 armored vehicles, 10 airplanes, and 7 helicopters in its invasion of Ukraine: [Ukrainian] deputy defense minister.
Numbers as of 3pm Ukraine time.
https://twitter.com/JackDetsch/status/1497214326213652480
That's up to 2800 families who have had their lives ruined for Putin's vanity.1 -
Conversely it is a good site to share info that is based in reality, but not yet widely understood or considered.noneoftheabove said:
I would have thought it a bad site for misinfo as clearly incorrect things are regularly challenged quickly on here, and it is not easy to share a pb quote with a mass audience anyway (apart from the journalists who enjoy lifting articles from here, changing a few words and claiming them as their own work).JosiasJessop said:
Oh, they can do both. In fact, it's well known they have been.noneoftheabove said:
I think the Russians have found it more successful to fund fringe Western political ideas and leaders that cause division and chaos.JosiasJessop said:
It's just that if I was a paid to post stuff to benefit Russia in this current environment, on a board with a generally (*) intelligent readership and posters, I would post the stuff you are. "Oh of course I hate Putin. But look, it'll all blow over and Boris is really at fault. He needs replacing."Heathener said:
You're a really unpleasant extreme right winger.JosiasJessop said:
Ah, two cheeks of the same Putinist arse.Heathener said:
I agree completely.MoonRabbit said:
This Ukraine Crisis could, likely will, quickly subside into nothing from here now, with ceasefire, Ukraine surrender, talks in Moscow between the governments.IshmaelZ said:
I think we will be fine. this is more a "in a fit of pique he decided to napalm Cheltenham" moment. I would be betting on Putin out of office by y/e if I were not so heavily invested in BJ being out of office, errm, worryingly soonTheScreamingEagles said:I'm feeling rather pessimistic at the moment.
The further invasion of Ukraine feels like a Sudetenland 1938 moment.
The reckoning on Boris is not cancelled till summer, it’s coming as soon as this thing dies down as the lazy and poor way he has handled the crisis only adds to the reasons to replace him.
Russia will have overrun Ukraine by the end of the weekend and I'm afraid it will subside as news until the next of Putin's atrocities threatens to wake us up.
We will back to domestic politics very soon.
We may see this is appalling (it is) but MoonRabbit is right.
I posted a sensible comment and you resorted to your usual pompous bellicosity.
(p.s. I loathe Putin)
Or similar. As you did in your post.
(*) excepting myself
And to be clear: PB may be a fringe website, but it'd be a good target for misinfo because of the readership and the (generally) reasonable quality of comments.2 -
"Just in case" - up there with "Then, we will fight in the shade"ydoethur said:
Probably. Remember, they were border police. In any case, I believe Ukraine does allow women to serve in the army.Malmesbury said:
Q - "Should I tell him to go fuck himself?"ydoethur said:
I'm not sure whether to laugh or not, but as a glorious act of defiance it puts Cambronne's famous (and apocryphal) 'merde' at Waterloo rather in the shade. Even if it ended rather more tragically for those sending it than it did for Cambronne.williamglenn said:
https://twitter.com/aletweetsnews/status/1497008826201124870BigRich said:
I haven't heard/seen that, Do you have a link?Leon said:That Snake Island audio. My God. Russia is dishonoured in front of the whole world. Shameful
And those brave Ukrainians. Dudes
A - "Just in case"
Sounded like the answer was from a woman?1 -
It is almost comicalMexicanpete said:
What are you on about?HYUFD said:
Suggests if Scotland ever got independence if an indyref2 was allowed by the UK government and a Yes vote which Westminster implemented, then Putin would also threaten Scotland if it tried to join NATO.dixiedean said:
Sweden?Gardenwalker said:Russia has warned Finland, Sweden of military consequences if they seek to join NATO.
https://twitter.com/jasongroves1/status/1497222749252632583?s=21
He truly has lost it.
Salmond as head of a puppet regime even1 -
Hadn't realised that President Zelensky of Ukraine is Jewish. Apparently Jewish community about 43,000 now. 1.5m at the the beginning of WW2.
Makes Vlad's charges of Ukraine being led by neo-Nazis even less plausible.
From the Beeb:
"Here's more from Vladimir Putin, who is addressing the Russian Security Council - and, indirectly, the Ukrainian military.
"He says Banderites - a reference to World War Two anti-Soviet fighter Stepan Bandera - and so-called neo-Nazis 'have put up heavy armaments including multiple rocket launch systems' in cities, including Kyiv and Kharkiv."
"'Neo-Nazis' is regularly used by President Putin to deride the Ukrainian government. Ukraine's President Zelensky, who is Jewish, has dismissed the term."
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That worked so well for Pertinax and Didius Julianus...IshmaelZ said:
The type of error to be expected from a modern historian. The true rule is that if the Praetorian Guard is on side and paid up to date, the rest of the army can go screw itself.ydoethur said:
Bloody fool thing to do if so. What's the first rule when facing a coup? Don't Piss Off The Army.Leon said:
I wonder if there is a coup being plotted - he is 69 - and this is a desperate distraction he has createdOmnium said:
No maybe about it.RandallFlagg said:
Maybe Putin really has gone completely mental.Gardenwalker said:Russia has warned Finland, Sweden of military consequences if they seek to join NATO.
https://twitter.com/jasongroves1/status/1497222749252632583?s=21
Wallace's "tonto" diagnosis is surprsingly bang on the money. I expect things to get very very messy in the Kremlin, but regime change is coming, and if the new regime wants to ingratiate itself with the army it will withdraw.0 -
"You take a standard G.I sock, cram it with as much Comp B as it can hold, rig up a simple fuse, then coat the whole thing with axle grease. Now when you throw it, it should stick. It's a bomb that sticks, it's a "sticky bomb". Think of a better way to knock out the tracks of a tank and I'm all ears."Burgessian said:
It's one thing using your air force to bomb cities in far-away Syria, quite another to do that to cities in next door Ukraine. So not really an option, surely.nico679 said:Russia doesn’t want street battles as the body bags would pile up and that would result in higher Ukrainian civilian casualties.
Given many Russians have family links with Ukraine this could cause problems for Putin.
And the thought of hand-to-hand fighting...Jeez. (BBC just reported that 18,000 guns have been given to volunteers, alongside instructions to make Molotov cocktail).
Could be extraordinarily ugly. Has Vlad really thought this through?0 -
Slapton Sands comes to mind.Sunil_Prasannan said:
You never heard of "friendly fire"?ydoethur said:
So just to be clear - the Russians are so confused they're now firing at their own people?Richard_Tyndall said:
The Moldovans are saying they believe it was a Ukrainian registered ship but (ironically) with a Russian crew.BlancheLivermore said:Romanian (so NATO) ship hit earlier was actually Moldovan (so neutral)
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/russian-forces-fire-neutral-european-26329832
This is extraordinary.
Here's an example in the North Sea:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogger_Bank_incident0 -
The head of the German Intelligence Agency had to be evacuated from Ukraine. Apparently he didn't believe an invasion would happen...
https://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-krise/praesident-des-bundesnachrichtendienstes-wurde-aus-hoechster-not-aus-der-ukraine-gerettet_id_59192174.html0 -
May also explain the Corbynites' reluctance to back Ukraine?Burgessian said:Hadn't realised that President Zelensky of Ukraine is Jewish. Apparently Jewish community about 43,000 now. 1.5m at the the beginning of WW2.
Makes Vlad's charges of Ukraine being led by neo-Nazis even less plausible.
From the Beeb:
"Here's more from Vladimir Putin, who is addressing the Russian Security Council - and, indirectly, the Ukrainian military.
"He says Banderites - a reference to World War Two anti-Soviet fighter Stepan Bandera - and so-called neo-Nazis 'have put up heavy armaments including multiple rocket launch systems' in cities, including Kyiv and Kharkiv."
"'Neo-Nazis' is regularly used by President Putin to deride the Ukrainian government. Ukraine's President Zelensky, who is Jewish, has dismissed the term."0 -
The BBC quotes the MoD as saying "Russian armoured vehicles have opened up a new advance route towards the capital, having been unsuccessful in capturing Chernihiv".0
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Hard to think of many less Christian or decadent than Putin.PJohnson said:the reason some right wingers support Putin by the way is they see him as potentially defending Christian values against a woke decadent west...they may be wrong but thats their reasoning
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They won't be swift in action.williamglenn said:The head of the German Intelligence Agency had to be evacuated from Ukraine. Apparently he didn't believe an invasion would happen...
https://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-krise/praesident-des-bundesnachrichtendienstes-wurde-aus-hoechster-not-aus-der-ukraine-gerettet_id_59192174.html
I thank you.0 -
Sadly they are cremating their loses and not sending body bags homeMaxPB said:
Yeah even at 10% of those numbers that's more that Putin expected to lose over the whole conflict. If that's even close to correct the pressure at home will start building as husbands, brothers, sons and fathers start coming home in body bags.CarlottaVance said:Even if this is only half a quarter right, this is no walk in the park:
Russia has lost 2,800 troops, 80 tanks, 516 armored vehicles, 10 airplanes, and 7 helicopters in its invasion of Ukraine: [Ukrainian] deputy defense minister.
Numbers as of 3pm Ukraine time.
https://twitter.com/JackDetsch/status/1497214326213652480
That's up to 2800 families who have had their lives ruined for Putin's vanity.0 -
The original version - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sticky_bombSunil_Prasannan said:
"You take a standard G.I sock, cram it with as much Composition B as it can hold, rig up a simple fuse, then coat the whole thing with axle grease. Now when you throw it, it should stick. It's a bomb that sticks, it's a "sticky bomb". Think of a better way to knock out the tracks and I'm all ears."Burgessian said:
It's one thing using your air force to bomb cities in far-away Syria, quite another to do that to cities in next door Ukraine. So not really an option, surely.nico679 said:Russia doesn’t want street battles as the body bags would pile up and that would result in higher Ukrainian civilian casualties.
Given many Russians have family links with Ukraine this could cause problems for Putin.
And the thought of hand-to-hand fighting...Jeez. (BBC just reported that 18,000 guns have been given to volunteers, alongside instructions to make Molotov cocktail).
Could be extraordinarily ugly. Has Vlad really thought this through?0 -
Ive got a feeling the Russian Army is not very goodChris said:The BBC quotes the MoD as saying "Russian armoured vehicles have opened up a new advance route towards the capital, having been unsuccessful in capturing Chernihiv".
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My theory is they are all very poor, and they would love to be wealthier and have nice things, and that’s something they share across that disputed border where twelve thousand people have been killed in last 7 years.rottenborough said:What I can't work out, unless the basic theory that Vlad has gone mad or his medication has sent him mad, is why he wants Ukraine as a locked in part of Russia?
You are bringing millions of people who have had a taste of democracy into the 'family' of Russia fed, thousands of whom will no doubt join up with and covertly work with pro-democracy forces in Russia itself.
He's helping seed the inevitable revolution that brings his lot down.
Maybe he really does know he has run out of time?
So if those on the Uranian side join EU and get wealthier from it, it appears to a Greater Russian Nationalist sat in the Kremlin just like you said “seed the inevitable revolution that brings” what he prefers down.
Does being in EU diminish Nationalism over time?
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Is there a vote? Hurrah. Bless you Boris. I had you down as a wrong un. Just shows you how wrong you can be about people.Burgessian said:
Jeezo.StuartDickson said:
Shame all the Scottish Oil has run out. Or so you BritNats keep telling us.HYUFD said:"The old concepts of fighting big tank battles on European land mass are over," Boris rather naively told Tobias Ellwood last year.
Russia has the biggest number of tanks in the world and has just launched the first land invasion of an independent sovereign state in Europe since WW2.
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1497139951552671744?s=20&t=M3ZRMfdjWd-gYHi9u8MyuQ
Boris, we need more tanks and we need to send them to Poland and the Baltic States
Why not give it a rest?
Who's gonna vote to dismember the strongest European NATO member, strip it of its nuclear deterrent, ban nuclear power generation, and scrap oil and gas extraction, now?
Well you, I guess?0 -
To put it into context, in the second Iraq war the US lost about 4,500 people killed, from combat and other causes. In Afghanistan, they lost about 2,300. Those were in wars that lasted over a decade in the first case, and two decades in the second.MaxPB said:
Yeah even at 10% of those numbers that's more that Putin expected to lose over the whole conflict. If that's even close to correct the pressure at home will start building as husbands, brothers, sons and fathers start coming home in body bags.CarlottaVance said:Even if this is only half a quarter right, this is no walk in the park:
Russia has lost 2,800 troops, 80 tanks, 516 armored vehicles, 10 airplanes, and 7 helicopters in its invasion of Ukraine: [Ukrainian] deputy defense minister.
Numbers as of 3pm Ukraine time.
https://twitter.com/JackDetsch/status/1497214326213652480
That's up to 2800 families who have had their lives ruined for Putin's vanity.
Over many years in Vietnam, they lost ~60,000.
If Russia's lost anything near 2,800 in less than two days, then that's terrible.
I would caution using figures provided from one side, though.0 -
If this turns into Vlad’s Russo-Japanese war it will be the start of the end, just as that conflict was for Nicholas II….NerysHughes said:
Ive got a feeling the Russian Army is not very goodChris said:The BBC quotes the MoD as saying "Russian armoured vehicles have opened up a new advance route towards the capital, having been unsuccessful in capturing Chernihiv".
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BREAKING: In a video conference call last night Ukraine President Zelensky told EU leaders: "This might be the last time you see me alive", two sources briefed on the call told me
https://twitter.com/barakravid/status/1497214423756197889?s=211 -
Put it on the list. This is a war, the sanctions should be total.MaxPB said:Stopping russian government bond sales in London and NY would be interesting. Investors want to buy them in London or NY because of legal protections and the ability of the courts to pass and enforce judgements against state actors. It could genuinely cripple the Russian state because no sensible investors would buy Russian government bonds sold under Russian or even EU law.
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From what I've read passim, some parts of it are excellent, world-beating (literally). Other parts - perhaps the majority - is piss-poor.NerysHughes said:
Ive got a feeling the Russian Army is not very goodChris said:The BBC quotes the MoD as saying "Russian armoured vehicles have opened up a new advance route towards the capital, having been unsuccessful in capturing Chernihiv".
Their problem is trying to maintain a military almost on par with the US's with one-tenth the budget.0 -
He had to be rescued by the Ukrainian army who are banned from using his country's weapons in this war.williamglenn said:The head of the German Intelligence Agency had to be evacuated from Ukraine. Apparently he didn't believe an invasion would happen...
https://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-krise/praesident-des-bundesnachrichtendienstes-wurde-aus-hoechster-not-aus-der-ukraine-gerettet_id_59192174.html1 -
Just for comparison, the Nazis lost 16,000 dead in their "September Campaign" in Poland, and 27,000 dead during the Battle of France, both of which lasted many weeks.CarlottaVance said:Even if this is only half a quarter right, this is no walk in the park:
Russia has lost 2,800 troops, 80 tanks, 516 armored vehicles, 10 airplanes, and 7 helicopters in its invasion of Ukraine: [Ukrainian] deputy defense minister.
Numbers as of 3pm Ukraine time.
https://twitter.com/JackDetsch/status/14972143262136524800
