What should the West do? the UK view of a range of suggestions – YouGov – politicalbetting.com
What should the West do? the UK view of a range of suggestions – YouGov – politicalbetting.com
Comments
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Seize Chelsea and then close them down.1
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Bizarre set of questions, because it is surely only the totality of which you can say it either goes far enough or doesn't?2
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Crikey, I never realised 13% of people were Chelsea supporters
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And what is the point of banning Russia from *exporting* high tech products when it doesn't make any, and not asking the import question?
I hardly ever see a yougov survey without thinking they should hire me to edit it3 -
I support this measure.tlg86 said:Seize Chelsea and then close them down.
UEFA are bellends though.
How am I supposed to get a hotel ticket for the CL final in Paris to see Liverpool win Number 7 when the French Open is taking place at the same time.
Also, UEFA are still letting Russia/Russian teams play. Go full South Africa on them.2 -
One problem with the Russian Oligarchs is it is difficult to disentangle how much they are really Putin advocates and how much Putin is simply shaking them down because he knows all their dirty secrets e.g. from the Navalny documentary, we know Abramovich and a number of others were "encouraged" to donate masses of money to a medical charity, which was in fact just a Putin slush fund. It was 100% a shake down and we have seen a number of UK based Russian come to mysterious ends when it seems like they have stopped providing such funding.1
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I'm feeling rather pessimistic at the moment.
The further invasion of Ukraine feels like a Sudetenland 1938 moment.4 -
On Topic. SWIFT may be more nuanced than the Germany bashing this morning suggested. the explanation above may be true, and anti-reactionary and very thoughtful response… but it’s also true that list are the ones whose banks are exposed to Russian money.FeersumEnjineeya said:Regarding SWIFT, I see that Austria and Cyprus, in addition to Germany, Italy and Hungary, are against including it in sanctions at the moment. Austria's Chancellor Karl Nehammer said that suspending SWIFT would hurt the EU rather more than it would hurt Russia, and that Russia has its own payment system, or could immediately switch to using the Chinese system.
https://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/europa/eu-sanktionen-121.html
Does PB really know the answer on this one?0 -
What a ridiculous poll2
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That would require UEFA to have scruples.....hears the Champions League theme tune in my head, this programme is bought to you in association with Gazprom...TheScreamingEagles said:
I support this measure.tlg86 said:Seize Chelsea and then close them down.
UEFA are bellends though.
How am I supposed to get a hotel ticket for the CL final in Paris to see Liverpool win Number 7 when the French Open is taking place at the same time.
Also, UEFA are still letting Russia/Russian teams play. Go full South Africa on them.0 -
Why Wasn’t Russia Cut Off From SWIFT?MoonRabbit said:
On Topic. SWIFT may be more nuanced than the Germany bashing this morning suggested. the explanation above may be true, and anti-reactionary and very thoughtful response… but it’s also true that list are the ones whose banks are exposed to Russian money.FeersumEnjineeya said:Regarding SWIFT, I see that Austria and Cyprus, in addition to Germany, Italy and Hungary, are against including it in sanctions at the moment. Austria's Chancellor Karl Nehammer said that suspending SWIFT would hurt the EU rather more than it would hurt Russia, and that Russia has its own payment system, or could immediately switch to using the Chinese system.
https://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/europa/eu-sanktionen-121.html
Does PB really know the answer on this one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-SuaO0ZSxw&t=310s0 -
It has "what do you reckon?" vibes.state_go_away said:What a ridiculous poll
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All right thinking people and football fans should be cheering for Liverpool this weekend.
If Chelsea win it will be a victory for evil and darkness.
If you support Chelsea you are a traitor. FACT.1 -
That’s probably the tenth draft. These things are generally scribbled by gophers.IshmaelZ said:And what is the point of banning Russia from *exporting* high tech products when it doesn't make any, and not asking the import question?
I hardly ever see a yougov survey without thinking they should hire me to edit it0 -
well for instance how do you go further than banning russian airplanes from the UK? Hijacking them ?TheWhiteRabbit said:1 -
on topic. Boris, in a failure of his leadership hasn’t made clear sanctions are a two way street hurting us too, not just bashing Putin, how does this play into such polling?0
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I'm not a football expert but judging by general football fan reactions, closing down Chelsea is probably an automatic vote-winner at any time, war or no war.
The number one thing that would damage Russia is if the West (that includes us, but particularly the EU as well) stops buying from them. This is difficult to do as so many raw materials come from there.
En passant: by Vlad's logic, if he takes Kiev will he be giving Saint Petersburg back to Sweden?1 -
I think we will be fine. this is more a "in a fit of pique he decided to napalm Cheltenham" moment. I would be betting on Putin out of office by y/e if I were not so heavily invested in BJ being out of office, errm, worryingly soonTheScreamingEagles said:I'm feeling rather pessimistic at the moment.
The further invasion of Ukraine feels like a Sudetenland 1938 moment.
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I can see the Russian Teams ending up in the final as every team they are drawn against refuse to play the away leg.TheScreamingEagles said:
I support this measure.tlg86 said:Seize Chelsea and then close them down.
UEFA are bellends though.
How am I supposed to get a hotel ticket for the CL final in Paris to see Liverpool win Number 7 when the French Open is taking place at the same time.
Also, UEFA are still letting Russia/Russian teams play. Go full South Africa on them.0 -
They've been barred from playing in Russia.eek said:
I can see the Russian Teams ending up in the final as every team they are drawn against refuse to play the away leg.TheScreamingEagles said:
I support this measure.tlg86 said:Seize Chelsea and then close them down.
UEFA are bellends though.
How am I supposed to get a hotel ticket for the CL final in Paris to see Liverpool win Number 7 when the French Open is taking place at the same time.
Also, UEFA are still letting Russia/Russian teams play. Go full South Africa on them.0 -
Surely you can at least start by refusing the money - final switched, but the Gazprom sponsor link remains? F1 race cancelled, but taking the money remains?TheScreamingEagles said:
I support this measure.tlg86 said:Seize Chelsea and then close them down.
UEFA are bellends though.
How am I supposed to get a hotel ticket for the CL final in Paris to see Liverpool win Number 7 when the French Open is taking place at the same time.
Also, UEFA are still letting Russia/Russian teams play. Go full South Africa on them.0 -
Assuming that this view has nothing whatever to do with Ukraine and is merely a reflection of hostility to Chelsea FC, I wholeheartedly agree.tlg86 said:Seize Chelsea and then close them down.
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They should have given it to somewhere where there is no realistic chance of one of their teams being in the final like Portugal or Manchester.TheScreamingEagles said:
I support this measure.tlg86 said:Seize Chelsea and then close them down.
UEFA are bellends though.
How am I supposed to get a hotel ticket for the CL final in Paris to see Liverpool win Number 7 when the French Open is taking place at the same time.
Also, UEFA are still letting Russia/Russian teams play. Go full South Africa on them.0 -
Can't you fly in and out on the day by private jet? 👍TheScreamingEagles said:
I support this measure.tlg86 said:Seize Chelsea and then close them down.
UEFA are bellends though.
How am I supposed to get a hotel ticket for the CL final in Paris to see Liverpool win Number 7 when the French Open is taking place at the same time.
Also, UEFA are still letting Russia/Russian teams play. Go full South Africa on them.0 -
Revive the Statute of Edward IV of 1477 banning football and mandating archery in it place.FrancisUrquhart said:
That would require UEFA to have scruples.....hears the Champions League theme tune in my head, this programme is bought to you in association with Gazprom...TheScreamingEagles said:
I support this measure.tlg86 said:Seize Chelsea and then close them down.
UEFA are bellends though.
How am I supposed to get a hotel ticket for the CL final in Paris to see Liverpool win Number 7 when the French Open is taking place at the same time.
Also, UEFA are still letting Russia/Russian teams play. Go full South Africa on them.
Update it to Davy Crockett recoils rifles and we are good to go...
In 1608 - ""With the ffotebale...[there] hath beene greate disorder in our towne of Manchester we are told, and glasse windowes broken yearlye and spoyled by a companie of lewd and disordered persons ..."1 -
It could be I agree with you. But if Russia dictate where, Zelenskiy will be flown to Moscow as I suspect.darkage said:
Presumably the negotiations could be done on Teams/Zoom?MoonRabbit said:
He doesn’t regard us as shoulder to shoulder, although UK government still spinning that impression out for internal consumption.kle4 said:
Moved on from the more harmonious talk of allies, which is fair enough.MoonRabbit said:
“The EU is preparing to freeze the assets of Russia’s president Vladimir Putin and foreign minister Sergei Lavrov as part of a third round of sanctions against Russia, the Financial Times reports.”CarlottaVance said:Italian prime minister Mario Draghi successfully secured a carve out for Italian luxury goods from the EU's package of economic sanctions against Nato, EU dip tells me. 'Apparently selling Gucci loafers to oligarchs is more of a priority than hitting back at Putin,' source adds.
https://twitter.com/Barnes_Joe/status/1497194009038626842?
Wow! Getting seriously tough on them now then. 🙄
Wasn’t this done years ago? How many times down the years can they keep announcing this?
Meanwhile, Zelenskiy latest address has said:
* UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT ACCUSES EUROPE OF INSUFFICIENT REACTION, SLOW HELP TO UKRAINE
* UKRAINE’S ZELENSKIY SAYS RUSSIAN ASSAULT LIKE REPEAT OF WORLD WAR TWO UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT CALLS ON EUROPEAN CITIZENS TO PROTEST TO FORCE THEIR GOVERNMENTS TO MORE DECISIVELY
What do we make of this bit. Does Zelenskiy really want to surrender to neutrality in talks with Putin?
Volodymyr Zelenskiy’s recent comments as he called on Vladimir Putin to sit return to the negotiation table.
In a televised statement today, Zelenskiy said he is calling on the Russian leader to negotiate to put an end to the fighting.
Will Zelenskiy stay alive to allow Moscow to use him as a puppet? Or give himself both barrels like Allende. Or flee to Spain like Peron?
Allende shot himself rather than be used as a puppet. Will Zelenskiy Putin puppet and neutral Ukraine be the end game and some sort of closure? If so, it means the NATO position of not really helping, and the fact sanctions and other help has been rubbish is justified, and could have come from our intelligence suggesting Zelenskiy would end up doing this?
My prediction is Zelenskiy will be in Moscow having talks very soon.
Does PB think Zelenskiy is serious about discussing Ukraine neutrality with Moscow?
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Why stop at Greater Finland? We want Bornholm back. And Trøndelag. And while we’re at it give us back Bremen-Verden, Pomerania and Wismar too. Thieving bastards.LDLF said:I'm not a football expert but judging by general football fan reactions, closing down Chelsea is probably an automatic vote-winner at any time, war or no war.
The number one thing that would damage Russia is if the West (that includes us, but particularly the EU as well) stops buying from them. This is difficult to do as so many raw materials come from there.
En passant: by Vlad's logic, if he takes Kiev will he be giving Saint Petersburg back to Sweden?
Come to think of it, it was us who invented Kievan Russia…0 -
Yes - banning Aeroflot wouldn't be enough on its own, but in terms of aerospace-related sanctions it seems about right. What do the 29% 'don't go far enough' respondents expect us to do? Send the RAF to shoot an Aeroflot passenger liner down if the tip of its wing brushes against our airspace?IshmaelZ said:Bizarre set of questions, because it is surely only the totality of which you can say it either goes far enough or doesn't?
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Don't you mean nuke Luton Airport? Having been there, completely understandable...IshmaelZ said:
I think we will be fine. this is more a "in a fit of pique he decided to napalm Cheltenham" moment. I would be betting on Putin out of office by y/e if I were not so heavily invested in BJ being out of office, errm, worryingly soonTheScreamingEagles said:I'm feeling rather pessimistic at the moment.
The further invasion of Ukraine feels like a Sudetenland 1938 moment.0 -
And in 1608 they weren’t even snorting coke or setting off flares in their arse hole.Malmesbury said:
Revive the Statute of Edward IV of 1477 banning football and mandating archery in it place.FrancisUrquhart said:
That would require UEFA to have scruples.....hears the Champions League theme tune in my head, this programme is bought to you in association with Gazprom...TheScreamingEagles said:
I support this measure.tlg86 said:Seize Chelsea and then close them down.
UEFA are bellends though.
How am I supposed to get a hotel ticket for the CL final in Paris to see Liverpool win Number 7 when the French Open is taking place at the same time.
Also, UEFA are still letting Russia/Russian teams play. Go full South Africa on them.
Update it to Davy Crockett recoils rifles and we are good to go...
In 1608 - ""With the ffotebale...[there] hath beene greate disorder in our towne of Manchester we are told, and glasse windowes broken yearlye and spoyled by a companie of lewd and disordered persons ..."0 -
Hopefully Putin does not follow Hitler and invade Poland too, otherwise we would then be in WW3.TheScreamingEagles said:I'm feeling rather pessimistic at the moment.
The further invasion of Ukraine feels like a Sudetenland 1938 moment.
Though Putin might want to bring the entire Eastern block under Russian control, in reality I think he would only add a few other non NATO states like Georgia and Moldova to the Ukraine and Belarus which are already in the Russian orbit now. Even if he wanted to restore the old Tsarist empire that would also likely only include non NATO Finland beyond the above.
However, while the West will not go to war with Russia to defend a non NATO action, the economic sanctions against Russia as suggested in the Yougov poll should all be considered by every NATO nation. The Defence Secretary has now ruled out any UK troops being sent to Ukraine
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-605227450 -
Better in the Hague surely. Putin could be shown to a small waiting room ahead of time.MoonRabbit said:
It could be I agree with you. But if Russia dictate where, Zelenskiy will be flown to Moscow as I suspect.darkage said:
Presumably the negotiations could be done on Teams/Zoom?MoonRabbit said:
He doesn’t regard us as shoulder to shoulder, although UK government still spinning that impression out for internal consumption.kle4 said:
Moved on from the more harmonious talk of allies, which is fair enough.MoonRabbit said:
“The EU is preparing to freeze the assets of Russia’s president Vladimir Putin and foreign minister Sergei Lavrov as part of a third round of sanctions against Russia, the Financial Times reports.”CarlottaVance said:Italian prime minister Mario Draghi successfully secured a carve out for Italian luxury goods from the EU's package of economic sanctions against Nato, EU dip tells me. 'Apparently selling Gucci loafers to oligarchs is more of a priority than hitting back at Putin,' source adds.
https://twitter.com/Barnes_Joe/status/1497194009038626842?
Wow! Getting seriously tough on them now then. 🙄
Wasn’t this done years ago? How many times down the years can they keep announcing this?
Meanwhile, Zelenskiy latest address has said:
* UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT ACCUSES EUROPE OF INSUFFICIENT REACTION, SLOW HELP TO UKRAINE
* UKRAINE’S ZELENSKIY SAYS RUSSIAN ASSAULT LIKE REPEAT OF WORLD WAR TWO UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT CALLS ON EUROPEAN CITIZENS TO PROTEST TO FORCE THEIR GOVERNMENTS TO MORE DECISIVELY
What do we make of this bit. Does Zelenskiy really want to surrender to neutrality in talks with Putin?
Volodymyr Zelenskiy’s recent comments as he called on Vladimir Putin to sit return to the negotiation table.
In a televised statement today, Zelenskiy said he is calling on the Russian leader to negotiate to put an end to the fighting.
Will Zelenskiy stay alive to allow Moscow to use him as a puppet? Or give himself both barrels like Allende. Or flee to Spain like Peron?
Allende shot himself rather than be used as a puppet. Will Zelenskiy Putin puppet and neutral Ukraine be the end game and some sort of closure? If so, it means the NATO position of not really helping, and the fact sanctions and other help has been rubbish is justified, and could have come from our intelligence suggesting Zelenskiy would end up doing this?
My prediction is Zelenskiy will be in Moscow having talks very soon.
Does PB think Zelenskiy is serious about discussing Ukraine neutrality with Moscow?1 -
So you should go with my idea to re-unite Sweden with Russia, in exchange for leaving the Baltics alone....StuartDickson said:
Why stop at Greater Finland? We want Bornholm back. And Trøndelag. And while we’re at it give us back Bremen-Verden, Pomerania and Wismar too. Thieving bastards.LDLF said:I'm not a football expert but judging by general football fan reactions, closing down Chelsea is probably an automatic vote-winner at any time, war or no war.
The number one thing that would damage Russia is if the West (that includes us, but particularly the EU as well) stops buying from them. This is difficult to do as so many raw materials come from there.
En passant: by Vlad's logic, if he takes Kiev will he be giving Saint Petersburg back to Sweden?
Come to think of it, it was us who invented Kievan Russia…0 -
Three questions:
Was the west right to signal so clearly that it would allow an invasion without fighting back militarily?
Was the west right not to use the promise of nuclear engagement if Russia crossed line X?
Not long ago a Russian action of this sort was thought impossible - like Germany they were past that stage of political development. Wrong.
So a third question about the impossible: If the UK invaded the neutral RoI, which eastern European countries (Ukraine being one) would take decisive and military action to defend and protect the RoI against the UK?
0 -
The Scottish Acts also banned golf. Bloody good legislation.Malmesbury said:
Revive the Statute of Edward IV of 1477 banning football and mandating archery in it place.FrancisUrquhart said:
That would require UEFA to have scruples.....hears the Champions League theme tune in my head, this programme is bought to you in association with Gazprom...TheScreamingEagles said:
I support this measure.tlg86 said:Seize Chelsea and then close them down.
UEFA are bellends though.
How am I supposed to get a hotel ticket for the CL final in Paris to see Liverpool win Number 7 when the French Open is taking place at the same time.
Also, UEFA are still letting Russia/Russian teams play. Go full South Africa on them.
Update it to Davy Crockett recoils rifles and we are good to go...
In 1608 - ""With the ffotebale...[there] hath beene greate disorder in our towne of Manchester we are told, and glasse windowes broken yearlye and spoyled by a companie of lewd and disordered persons ..."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_Act_14240 -
If anyone has any doubts about Russia's goals in Ukraine, the foreign ministry said they are to "bring the current puppet regime to justice"
https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1497212417629208581?s=210 -
I am more optimistic. Firstly the Ukrainians are fighting back and it isn't a 'cakewalk' for Russia. There is no great capitulation. Sadly, the worse it is for Russia, the better.TheScreamingEagles said:I'm feeling rather pessimistic at the moment.
The further invasion of Ukraine feels like a Sudetenland 1938 moment.
Perhaps a little self indulgent, but there is also the idea that Britain and the rest of Europe will 'wake up' to the true nature of Putin's regime, and start directing our energy towards these external threats, rather than being consumed by internal distracting conflicts (Brexit, scots Indy, statue toppling).
I've also been feeling better after deciding that I would give money to the Ukrainians who are fighting Russia. Commenting on websites isn't enough.
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What’s all this “union” nonsense? That’s for wimps. We shall be their overlords and masters.Malmesbury said:
So you should go with my idea to re-unite Sweden with Russia, in exchange for leaving the Baltics alone....StuartDickson said:
Why stop at Greater Finland? We want Bornholm back. And Trøndelag. And while we’re at it give us back Bremen-Verden, Pomerania and Wismar too. Thieving bastards.LDLF said:I'm not a football expert but judging by general football fan reactions, closing down Chelsea is probably an automatic vote-winner at any time, war or no war.
The number one thing that would damage Russia is if the West (that includes us, but particularly the EU as well) stops buying from them. This is difficult to do as so many raw materials come from there.
En passant: by Vlad's logic, if he takes Kiev will he be giving Saint Petersburg back to Sweden?
Come to think of it, it was us who invented Kievan Russia…0 -
I'll bet... Some Yobe Entrin'd A Patard In His Nethers, Much To The Discomfit Of Himself and His Companions....MoonRabbit said:
And in 1608 they weren’t even snorting coke or setting off flares in their arse hole.Malmesbury said:
Revive the Statute of Edward IV of 1477 banning football and mandating archery in it place.FrancisUrquhart said:
That would require UEFA to have scruples.....hears the Champions League theme tune in my head, this programme is bought to you in association with Gazprom...TheScreamingEagles said:
I support this measure.tlg86 said:Seize Chelsea and then close them down.
UEFA are bellends though.
How am I supposed to get a hotel ticket for the CL final in Paris to see Liverpool win Number 7 when the French Open is taking place at the same time.
Also, UEFA are still letting Russia/Russian teams play. Go full South Africa on them.
Update it to Davy Crockett recoils rifles and we are good to go...
In 1608 - ""With the ffotebale...[there] hath beene greate disorder in our towne of Manchester we are told, and glasse windowes broken yearlye and spoyled by a companie of lewd and disordered persons ..."0 -
I love footy but hate golf! And don't get me started about cricket!StuartDickson said:
The Scottish Acts also banned golf. Bloody good legislation.Malmesbury said:
Revive the Statute of Edward IV of 1477 banning football and mandating archery in it place.FrancisUrquhart said:
That would require UEFA to have scruples.....hears the Champions League theme tune in my head, this programme is bought to you in association with Gazprom...TheScreamingEagles said:
I support this measure.tlg86 said:Seize Chelsea and then close them down.
UEFA are bellends though.
How am I supposed to get a hotel ticket for the CL final in Paris to see Liverpool win Number 7 when the French Open is taking place at the same time.
Also, UEFA are still letting Russia/Russian teams play. Go full South Africa on them.
Update it to Davy Crockett recoils rifles and we are good to go...
In 1608 - ""With the ffotebale...[there] hath beene greate disorder in our towne of Manchester we are told, and glasse windowes broken yearlye and spoyled by a companie of lewd and disordered persons ..."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_Act_14240 -
I’m not sure what “more” the Great British public think we should do than banning Russian aircraft from arrival and overflight?
Shoot them down?
Oh no, it’s the Russians that do that.
So far only Poland has joined the UK in banning Russian aircraft.2 -
Then what?CarlottaVance said:If anyone has any doubts about Russia's goals in Ukraine, the foreign ministry said they are to "bring the current puppet regime to justice"
https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1497212417629208581?s=210 -
Bet that's what they said in Scotland when......StuartDickson said:
What’s all this “union” nonsense? That’s for wimps. We shall be their overlords and masters.Malmesbury said:
So you should go with my idea to re-unite Sweden with Russia, in exchange for leaving the Baltics alone....StuartDickson said:
Why stop at Greater Finland? We want Bornholm back. And Trøndelag. And while we’re at it give us back Bremen-Verden, Pomerania and Wismar too. Thieving bastards.LDLF said:I'm not a football expert but judging by general football fan reactions, closing down Chelsea is probably an automatic vote-winner at any time, war or no war.
The number one thing that would damage Russia is if the West (that includes us, but particularly the EU as well) stops buying from them. This is difficult to do as so many raw materials come from there.
En passant: by Vlad's logic, if he takes Kiev will he be giving Saint Petersburg back to Sweden?
Come to think of it, it was us who invented Kievan Russia…0 -
Not exactly a promising start to negotiations…TheWhiteRabbit said:
Then what?CarlottaVance said:If anyone has any doubts about Russia's goals in Ukraine, the foreign ministry said they are to "bring the current puppet regime to justice"
https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1497212417629208581?s=210 -
It'll be one of the most glorious moments in world history if it turns out Putin has miscalculated and he ends up being turfed out of office.IshmaelZ said:
I think we will be fine. this is more a "in a fit of pique he decided to napalm Cheltenham" moment. I would be betting on Putin out of office by y/e if I were not so heavily invested in BJ being out of office, errm, worryingly soonTheScreamingEagles said:I'm feeling rather pessimistic at the moment.
The further invasion of Ukraine feels like a Sudetenland 1938 moment.2 -
Russian imperialism = badalgarkirk said:Three questions:
Was the west right to signal so clearly that it would allow an invasion without fighting back militarily?
Was the west right not to use the promise of nuclear engagement if Russia crossed line X?
Not long ago a Russian action of this sort was thought impossible - like Germany they were past that stage of political development. Wrong.
So a third question about the impossible: If the UK invaded the neutral RoI, which eastern European countries (Ukraine being one) would take decisive and military action to defend and protect the RoI against the UK?
British imperialism = good
In fact two sides of the same dud currency.0 -
This Ukraine Crisis could, likely will, quickly subside into nothing from here now, with ceasefire, Ukraine surrender, talks in Moscow between the governments.IshmaelZ said:
I think we will be fine. this is more a "in a fit of pique he decided to napalm Cheltenham" moment. I would be betting on Putin out of office by y/e if I were not so heavily invested in BJ being out of office, errm, worryingly soonTheScreamingEagles said:I'm feeling rather pessimistic at the moment.
The further invasion of Ukraine feels like a Sudetenland 1938 moment.
The reckoning on Boris is not cancelled till summer, it’s coming as soon as this thing dies down as the lazy and poor way he has handled the crisis only adds to the reasons to replace him.
What’s different and new from the last fortnight is how there is also reckoning coming now to how the Tory Party rolled in bed with dirty rubble in the run up to this slaughter of Ukraine sovereignty and self determination.
TSE posted last month that he signed up to vote for next leader outside current cabinet, and I laughed at and was very rude to him. I was wrong. After the last two weeks the next Tory leader can only come from outside this cabinet. Tugendhat or Harper it is then.0 -
"The old concepts of fighting big tank battles on European land mass are over," Boris rather naively told Tobias Ellwood last year.
Russia has the biggest number of tanks in the world and has just launched the first land invasion of an independent sovereign state in Europe since WW2.
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1497139951552671744?s=20&t=M3ZRMfdjWd-gYHi9u8MyuQ
Boris, we need more tanks and we need to send them to Poland and the Baltic States1 -
Re your third question about the impossible.algarkirk said:Three questions:
Was the west right to signal so clearly that it would allow an invasion without fighting back militarily?
Was the west right not to use the promise of nuclear engagement if Russia crossed line X?
Not long ago a Russian action of this sort was thought impossible - like Germany they were past that stage of political development. Wrong.
So a third question about the impossible: If the UK invaded the neutral RoI, which eastern European countries (Ukraine being one) would take decisive and military action to defend and protect the RoI against the UK?
Flip it around and if the Republic of Ireland invaded Northern Ireland in a fit of madness and the UK invoked NATO Article 5 would we see the US and EU members of NATO stepping up to their obligation?
If not then NATO is clearly BS as they can’t pick and choose and have any future.
Obviously this is bonkers but stranger things have happened….0 -
Football badSunil_Prasannan said:
I love footy but hate golf! And don't get me started about cricket!StuartDickson said:
The Scottish Acts also banned golf. Bloody good legislation.Malmesbury said:
Revive the Statute of Edward IV of 1477 banning football and mandating archery in it place.FrancisUrquhart said:
That would require UEFA to have scruples.....hears the Champions League theme tune in my head, this programme is bought to you in association with Gazprom...TheScreamingEagles said:
I support this measure.tlg86 said:Seize Chelsea and then close them down.
UEFA are bellends though.
How am I supposed to get a hotel ticket for the CL final in Paris to see Liverpool win Number 7 when the French Open is taking place at the same time.
Also, UEFA are still letting Russia/Russian teams play. Go full South Africa on them.
Update it to Davy Crockett recoils rifles and we are good to go...
In 1608 - ""With the ffotebale...[there] hath beene greate disorder in our towne of Manchester we are told, and glasse windowes broken yearlye and spoyled by a companie of lewd and disordered persons ..."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_Act_1424
Golf badder
Cricket baddest0 -
That's a very good synopsis. Thanks for linking that.FrancisUrquhart said:
Why Wasn’t Russia Cut Off From SWIFT?MoonRabbit said:
On Topic. SWIFT may be more nuanced than the Germany bashing this morning suggested. the explanation above may be true, and anti-reactionary and very thoughtful response… but it’s also true that list are the ones whose banks are exposed to Russian money.FeersumEnjineeya said:Regarding SWIFT, I see that Austria and Cyprus, in addition to Germany, Italy and Hungary, are against including it in sanctions at the moment. Austria's Chancellor Karl Nehammer said that suspending SWIFT would hurt the EU rather more than it would hurt Russia, and that Russia has its own payment system, or could immediately switch to using the Chinese system.
https://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/europa/eu-sanktionen-121.html
Does PB really know the answer on this one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-SuaO0ZSxw&t=310s
I still think that on balance it would be right to cut Russia off from Swift, but I accept that the more targetted sanctions that are already in place are more likely to prove effective.
By the way, I generally hate these kinds of survey. How any asked even knew what Swift was before the war started?0 -
https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-crisis-russia-has-failed-to-take-any-of-its-major-objectives-and-has-lost-450-personnel-defence-secretary-ben-wallace-says-12550928
He's not the Impaler, he's a very naughty boy.0 -
Same colours on the Swedish and Ukrainian flags!Malmesbury said:
So you should go with my idea to re-unite Sweden with Russia, in exchange for leaving the Baltics alone....StuartDickson said:
Why stop at Greater Finland? We want Bornholm back. And Trøndelag. And while we’re at it give us back Bremen-Verden, Pomerania and Wismar too. Thieving bastards.LDLF said:I'm not a football expert but judging by general football fan reactions, closing down Chelsea is probably an automatic vote-winner at any time, war or no war.
The number one thing that would damage Russia is if the West (that includes us, but particularly the EU as well) stops buying from them. This is difficult to do as so many raw materials come from there.
En passant: by Vlad's logic, if he takes Kiev will he be giving Saint Petersburg back to Sweden?
Come to think of it, it was us who invented Kievan Russia…0 -
I think it would be neutrality at the point of a gun, but he'd be under a lot of pressure from all sides to agree that as privately it would be less of a headache for the West to accept that even if officially they csnt say it.MoonRabbit said:
It could be I agree with you. But if Russia dictate where, Zelenskiy will be flown to Moscow as I suspect.darkage said:
Presumably the negotiations could be done on Teams/Zoom?MoonRabbit said:
He doesn’t regard us as shoulder to shoulder, although UK government still spinning that impression out for internal consumption.kle4 said:
Moved on from the more harmonious talk of allies, which is fair enough.MoonRabbit said:
“The EU is preparing to freeze the assets of Russia’s president Vladimir Putin and foreign minister Sergei Lavrov as part of a third round of sanctions against Russia, the Financial Times reports.”CarlottaVance said:Italian prime minister Mario Draghi successfully secured a carve out for Italian luxury goods from the EU's package of economic sanctions against Nato, EU dip tells me. 'Apparently selling Gucci loafers to oligarchs is more of a priority than hitting back at Putin,' source adds.
https://twitter.com/Barnes_Joe/status/1497194009038626842?
Wow! Getting seriously tough on them now then. 🙄
Wasn’t this done years ago? How many times down the years can they keep announcing this?
Meanwhile, Zelenskiy latest address has said:
* UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT ACCUSES EUROPE OF INSUFFICIENT REACTION, SLOW HELP TO UKRAINE
* UKRAINE’S ZELENSKIY SAYS RUSSIAN ASSAULT LIKE REPEAT OF WORLD WAR TWO UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT CALLS ON EUROPEAN CITIZENS TO PROTEST TO FORCE THEIR GOVERNMENTS TO MORE DECISIVELY
What do we make of this bit. Does Zelenskiy really want to surrender to neutrality in talks with Putin?
Volodymyr Zelenskiy’s recent comments as he called on Vladimir Putin to sit return to the negotiation table.
In a televised statement today, Zelenskiy said he is calling on the Russian leader to negotiate to put an end to the fighting.
Will Zelenskiy stay alive to allow Moscow to use him as a puppet? Or give himself both barrels like Allende. Or flee to Spain like Peron?
Allende shot himself rather than be used as a puppet. Will Zelenskiy Putin puppet and neutral Ukraine be the end game and some sort of closure? If so, it means the NATO position of not really helping, and the fact sanctions and other help has been rubbish is justified, and could have come from our intelligence suggesting Zelenskiy would end up doing this?
My prediction is Zelenskiy will be in Moscow having talks very soon.
Does PB think Zelenskiy is serious about discussing Ukraine neutrality with Moscow?0 -
Mass murderers have to stick together.
In a telephone call with Vladimir Putin on Friday, Syrian President Bashar al-Assad praised his Russia counterpart's invasion of Ukraine as a "correction of history", a statement from the Syrian presidency says...
Not quite @ydoethur 's approach to historiography.0 -
I doubt most people really even know what SWIFT is and the media reports on it aren't always accurate i.e. it isn't actually the transfer of money, it is the messaging system.Peter_the_Punter said:
That's a very good synopsis. Thanks for linking that.FrancisUrquhart said:
Why Wasn’t Russia Cut Off From SWIFT?MoonRabbit said:
On Topic. SWIFT may be more nuanced than the Germany bashing this morning suggested. the explanation above may be true, and anti-reactionary and very thoughtful response… but it’s also true that list are the ones whose banks are exposed to Russian money.FeersumEnjineeya said:Regarding SWIFT, I see that Austria and Cyprus, in addition to Germany, Italy and Hungary, are against including it in sanctions at the moment. Austria's Chancellor Karl Nehammer said that suspending SWIFT would hurt the EU rather more than it would hurt Russia, and that Russia has its own payment system, or could immediately switch to using the Chinese system.
https://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/europa/eu-sanktionen-121.html
Does PB really know the answer on this one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-SuaO0ZSxw&t=310s
I still think that on balance it would be right to cut Russia off from Swift, but I accept that the more targetted sanctions that are already in place are more likely to prove effective.
By the way, I generally hate these kinds of survey. How any asked even knew what Swift was before the war started?2 -
I understand. When you love something so much putting it into words can be hard.Sunil_Prasannan said:
I love footy but hate golf! And don't get me started about cricket!StuartDickson said:
The Scottish Acts also banned golf. Bloody good legislation.Malmesbury said:
Revive the Statute of Edward IV of 1477 banning football and mandating archery in it place.FrancisUrquhart said:
That would require UEFA to have scruples.....hears the Champions League theme tune in my head, this programme is bought to you in association with Gazprom...TheScreamingEagles said:
I support this measure.tlg86 said:Seize Chelsea and then close them down.
UEFA are bellends though.
How am I supposed to get a hotel ticket for the CL final in Paris to see Liverpool win Number 7 when the French Open is taking place at the same time.
Also, UEFA are still letting Russia/Russian teams play. Go full South Africa on them.
Update it to Davy Crockett recoils rifles and we are good to go...
In 1608 - ""With the ffotebale...[there] hath beene greate disorder in our towne of Manchester we are told, and glasse windowes broken yearlye and spoyled by a companie of lewd and disordered persons ..."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_Act_14242 -
FPT
At this juncture, the EU foreign policy architecture has failed.
By allowing some countries to veto effective sanctions, it makes Europe - and the West - weaker.
It is not just Germany’s Wandel durch Handel that is discredited.
No wonder Tusk is furious, the Baltics scathing, and Ukraine despairing.
None of this excuses London’s own failings, but this is a monumental error by the EU (and Germany in particular), and there will be ramifications.5 -
I fear NATO has been a big bluff for a long time.boulay said:
Re your third question about the impossible.algarkirk said:Three questions:
Was the west right to signal so clearly that it would allow an invasion without fighting back militarily?
Was the west right not to use the promise of nuclear engagement if Russia crossed line X?
Not long ago a Russian action of this sort was thought impossible - like Germany they were past that stage of political development. Wrong.
So a third question about the impossible: If the UK invaded the neutral RoI, which eastern European countries (Ukraine being one) would take decisive and military action to defend and protect the RoI against the UK?
Flip it around and if the Republic of Ireland invaded Northern Ireland in a fit of madness and the UK invoked NATO Article 5 would we see the US and EU members of NATO stepping up to their obligation?
If not then NATO is clearly BS as they can’t pick and choose and have any future.
Obviously this is bonkers but stranger things have happened….0 -
This suggests other countries have closed their borders to Aeroflot in addition to the UK & Poland. The more that do, the more Russia will suffer as Aeroflot makes a lot of its money from overflight fees:
https://www.oag.com/blog/russia-closes-its-aviation-borders-affected-airlines-will-find-alternatives0 -
From the Economist:HYUFD said:"The old concepts of fighting big tank battles on European land mass are over," Boris rather naively told Tobias Ellwood last year.
Russia has the biggest number of tanks in the world and has just launched the first land invasion of an independent sovereign state in Europe since WW2.
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1497139951552671744?s=20&t=M3ZRMfdjWd-gYHi9u8MyuQ
Boris, we need more tanks and we need to send them to Poland and the Baltic States
Ukraine’s army appears to have had more opportunities to employ anti-tank weapons than many supposed. America, Britain and other European allies gave Ukraine thousands of such weapons, including long-range American Javelins and shorter-range Anglo-Swedish nlaws, over the past two months. In places, these presented serious resistance to Russian advances in the north and east. It is thought that nlaws have never been used in combat before. Video footage taken around Kharkiv appears to show damaged tanks. Ukrainian officials said that Javelins and other weapons had “neutralised” an entire column of 15 t-72 tanks in Hlukhova, in the north-west of the country close to the Russian border.
You can buy 270 nlaws for the cost of upgrading one Challenger 2.0 -
Cricket is the most boring "sport" in the world apart from golf!kle4 said:
I understand. When you love something so much putting it into words can be hard.Sunil_Prasannan said:
I love footy but hate golf! And don't get me started about cricket!StuartDickson said:
The Scottish Acts also banned golf. Bloody good legislation.Malmesbury said:
Revive the Statute of Edward IV of 1477 banning football and mandating archery in it place.FrancisUrquhart said:
That would require UEFA to have scruples.....hears the Champions League theme tune in my head, this programme is bought to you in association with Gazprom...TheScreamingEagles said:
I support this measure.tlg86 said:Seize Chelsea and then close them down.
UEFA are bellends though.
How am I supposed to get a hotel ticket for the CL final in Paris to see Liverpool win Number 7 when the French Open is taking place at the same time.
Also, UEFA are still letting Russia/Russian teams play. Go full South Africa on them.
Update it to Davy Crockett recoils rifles and we are good to go...
In 1608 - ""With the ffotebale...[there] hath beene greate disorder in our towne of Manchester we are told, and glasse windowes broken yearlye and spoyled by a companie of lewd and disordered persons ..."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_Act_14241 -
Meanwhile the stock markets are on big rallies today. Why? Because capitalists only care about money and they know the sanctions don't touch the real dosh.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business/market-data
Easy to blame the EU but where was London when Putin's money was flowing here over the last 15 years? When Boris played tennis for £160,000 of Putin's mafiosa money the same year that Putin shot down MH17, killing 283 innocent people including 80 children.
No Conservative can claim the moral high ground today.3 -
This is not inconceivable, Andy.Andy_JS said:
It'll be one of the most glorious moments in world history if it turns out Putin has miscalculated and he ends up being turfed out of office.IshmaelZ said:
I think we will be fine. this is more a "in a fit of pique he decided to napalm Cheltenham" moment. I would be betting on Putin out of office by y/e if I were not so heavily invested in BJ being out of office, errm, worryingly soonTheScreamingEagles said:I'm feeling rather pessimistic at the moment.
The further invasion of Ukraine feels like a Sudetenland 1938 moment.
I do think he has miscalculated. He may get away with it, or at least get off light. He may also find that he not only loses Ukraine permanently, including the previously annexed portions, but he and his pals finish up being tried for war crimes. Meanwhile Russia descends into a failed State.
There are many possibilities between the two extremes, but as a punter when I look at the his possible gains and balance them against the possible losses and how likely they are, I have to say he seems to be gambling at shit awful odds.3 -
I dont know how anyone affords warfare. One crashed jet and you're out tens of millions.Chelyabinsk said:
From the Economist:HYUFD said:"The old concepts of fighting big tank battles on European land mass are over," Boris rather naively told Tobias Ellwood last year.
Russia has the biggest number of tanks in the world and has just launched the first land invasion of an independent sovereign state in Europe since WW2.
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1497139951552671744?s=20&t=M3ZRMfdjWd-gYHi9u8MyuQ
Boris, we need more tanks and we need to send them to Poland and the Baltic States
Ukraine’s army appears to have had more opportunities to employ anti-tank weapons than many supposed. America, Britain and other European allies gave Ukraine thousands of such weapons, including long-range American Javelins and shorter-range Anglo-Swedish nlaws, over the past two months. In places, these presented serious resistance to Russian advances in the north and east. It is thought that nlaws have never been used in combat before. Video footage taken around Kharkiv appears to show damaged tanks. Ukrainian officials said that Javelins and other weapons had “neutralised” an entire column of 15 t-72 tanks in Hlukhova, in the north-west of the country close to the Russian border.
You can buy 270 nlaws for the cost of upgrading one Challenger 2.1 -
I too find the latest news on Ukraine utterly depressing. After 2 years of Covid to follow it by a return to the worst features of the Cold war is quite baffling. Finding it quite hard to be optimistic for the future. WTF have we done to ourselves.0
-
I agree completely.MoonRabbit said:
This Ukraine Crisis could, likely will, quickly subside into nothing from here now, with ceasefire, Ukraine surrender, talks in Moscow between the governments.IshmaelZ said:
I think we will be fine. this is more a "in a fit of pique he decided to napalm Cheltenham" moment. I would be betting on Putin out of office by y/e if I were not so heavily invested in BJ being out of office, errm, worryingly soonTheScreamingEagles said:I'm feeling rather pessimistic at the moment.
The further invasion of Ukraine feels like a Sudetenland 1938 moment.
The reckoning on Boris is not cancelled till summer, it’s coming as soon as this thing dies down as the lazy and poor way he has handled the crisis only adds to the reasons to replace him.
Russia will have overrun Ukraine by the end of the weekend and I'm afraid it will subside as news until the next of Putin's atrocities threatens to wake us up.
We will back to domestic politics very soon.
We may see this is appalling (it is) but MoonRabbit is right.1 -
I like the flag of Verona.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Same colours on the Swedish and Ukrainian flags!Malmesbury said:
So you should go with my idea to re-unite Sweden with Russia, in exchange for leaving the Baltics alone....StuartDickson said:
Why stop at Greater Finland? We want Bornholm back. And Trøndelag. And while we’re at it give us back Bremen-Verden, Pomerania and Wismar too. Thieving bastards.LDLF said:I'm not a football expert but judging by general football fan reactions, closing down Chelsea is probably an automatic vote-winner at any time, war or no war.
The number one thing that would damage Russia is if the West (that includes us, but particularly the EU as well) stops buying from them. This is difficult to do as so many raw materials come from there.
En passant: by Vlad's logic, if he takes Kiev will he be giving Saint Petersburg back to Sweden?
Come to think of it, it was us who invented Kievan Russia…
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Verona.svg
1 -
Football baddest, looking at the overall package. What other "sport" yields a "top ten" worst stadium disasters, like a specialised subject for Mastermind?StuartDickson said:
Football badSunil_Prasannan said:
I love footy but hate golf! And don't get me started about cricket!StuartDickson said:
The Scottish Acts also banned golf. Bloody good legislation.Malmesbury said:
Revive the Statute of Edward IV of 1477 banning football and mandating archery in it place.FrancisUrquhart said:
That would require UEFA to have scruples.....hears the Champions League theme tune in my head, this programme is bought to you in association with Gazprom...TheScreamingEagles said:
I support this measure.tlg86 said:Seize Chelsea and then close them down.
UEFA are bellends though.
How am I supposed to get a hotel ticket for the CL final in Paris to see Liverpool win Number 7 when the French Open is taking place at the same time.
Also, UEFA are still letting Russia/Russian teams play. Go full South Africa on them.
Update it to Davy Crockett recoils rifles and we are good to go...
In 1608 - ""With the ffotebale...[there] hath beene greate disorder in our towne of Manchester we are told, and glasse windowes broken yearlye and spoyled by a companie of lewd and disordered persons ..."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_Act_1424
Golf badder
Cricket baddest
https://footballgroundguide.com/news/worst-football-stadium-disasters-in-history-the-most-tragic-events.html
My first run in with the moderators here was over some deeply ill-judged remarks about Hillsborough which I now unhesitatingly withdraw, but it is almost possible to discern some kind of pattern when you think about Heysel. And consider that we have yet to see dozens of spectators massacred at Lord's because poor policing and the dilapidated state of the pavilion, and let's warble some tastefully mawkish composition about the mersey (whatever a mersey is) or not walking on your own.0 -
You can't afford not to. If you try, the Russians walk in.kle4 said:
I dont know how anyone affords warfare. One crashed jet and you're out tens if millions.Chelyabinsk said:
From the Economist:HYUFD said:"The old concepts of fighting big tank battles on European land mass are over," Boris rather naively told Tobias Ellwood last year.
Russia has the biggest number of tanks in the world and has just launched the first land invasion of an independent sovereign state in Europe since WW2.
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1497139951552671744?s=20&t=M3ZRMfdjWd-gYHi9u8MyuQ
Boris, we need more tanks and we need to send them to Poland and the Baltic States
Ukraine’s army appears to have had more opportunities to employ anti-tank weapons than many supposed. America, Britain and other European allies gave Ukraine thousands of such weapons, including long-range American Javelins and shorter-range Anglo-Swedish nlaws, over the past two months. In places, these presented serious resistance to Russian advances in the north and east. It is thought that nlaws have never been used in combat before. Video footage taken around Kharkiv appears to show damaged tanks. Ukrainian officials said that Javelins and other weapons had “neutralised” an entire column of 15 t-72 tanks in Hlukhova, in the north-west of the country close to the Russian border.
You can buy 270 nlaws for the cost of upgrading one Challenger 2.1 -
It would be quite the comeuppance for Ukraine to recover the republics (Crimea seems no chance) as a best case from this. But hard to be optimistic so early in.Peter_the_Punter said:
This is not inconceivable, Andy.Andy_JS said:
It'll be one of the most glorious moments in world history if it turns out Putin has miscalculated and he ends up being turfed out of office.IshmaelZ said:
I think we will be fine. this is more a "in a fit of pique he decided to napalm Cheltenham" moment. I would be betting on Putin out of office by y/e if I were not so heavily invested in BJ being out of office, errm, worryingly soonTheScreamingEagles said:I'm feeling rather pessimistic at the moment.
The further invasion of Ukraine feels like a Sudetenland 1938 moment.
I do think he has miscalculated. He may get away with it, or at least get off light. He may also find that he not only loses Ukraine permanently, including the previously annexed portions, but he and his pals finish up being tried for war crimes. Meanwhile Russia descends into a failed State.
There are many possibilities between the two extremes, but as a punter when I look at the his possible gains and balance them against the possible losses and how likely they are, I have to say he seems to be gambling at shit awful odds.0 -
Looking at FlightRadar, it would appear Aeroflot is preparing to avoid Czechia.CarlottaVance said:This suggests other countries have closed their borders to Aeroflot in addition to the UK & Poland. The more that do, the more Russia will suffer as Aeroflot makes a lot of its money from overflight fees:
https://www.oag.com/blog/russia-closes-its-aviation-borders-affected-airlines-will-find-alternatives0 -
I think he has and I think he will be.Andy_JS said:
It'll be one of the most glorious moments in world history if it turns out Putin has miscalculated and he ends up being turfed out of office.IshmaelZ said:
I think we will be fine. this is more a "in a fit of pique he decided to napalm Cheltenham" moment. I would be betting on Putin out of office by y/e if I were not so heavily invested in BJ being out of office, errm, worryingly soonTheScreamingEagles said:I'm feeling rather pessimistic at the moment.
The further invasion of Ukraine feels like a Sudetenland 1938 moment.3 -
Ukraine does NOT have a northwestern border with Russia.Chelyabinsk said:
From the Economist:HYUFD said:"The old concepts of fighting big tank battles on European land mass are over," Boris rather naively told Tobias Ellwood last year.
Russia has the biggest number of tanks in the world and has just launched the first land invasion of an independent sovereign state in Europe since WW2.
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1497139951552671744?s=20&t=M3ZRMfdjWd-gYHi9u8MyuQ
Boris, we need more tanks and we need to send them to Poland and the Baltic States
Ukraine’s army appears to have had more opportunities to employ anti-tank weapons than many supposed. America, Britain and other European allies gave Ukraine thousands of such weapons, including long-range American Javelins and shorter-range Anglo-Swedish nlaws, over the past two months. In places, these presented serious resistance to Russian advances in the north and east. It is thought that nlaws have never been used in combat before. Video footage taken around Kharkiv appears to show damaged tanks. Ukrainian officials said that Javelins and other weapons had “neutralised” an entire column of 15 t-72 tanks in Hlukhova, in the north-west of the country close to the Russian border.
You can buy 270 nlaws for the cost of upgrading one Challenger 2.0 -
Ah, two cheeks of the same Putinist arse.Heathener said:
I agree completely.MoonRabbit said:
This Ukraine Crisis could, likely will, quickly subside into nothing from here now, with ceasefire, Ukraine surrender, talks in Moscow between the governments.IshmaelZ said:
I think we will be fine. this is more a "in a fit of pique he decided to napalm Cheltenham" moment. I would be betting on Putin out of office by y/e if I were not so heavily invested in BJ being out of office, errm, worryingly soonTheScreamingEagles said:I'm feeling rather pessimistic at the moment.
The further invasion of Ukraine feels like a Sudetenland 1938 moment.
The reckoning on Boris is not cancelled till summer, it’s coming as soon as this thing dies down as the lazy and poor way he has handled the crisis only adds to the reasons to replace him.
Russia will have overrun Ukraine by the end of the weekend and I'm afraid it will subside as news until the next of Putin's atrocities threatens to wake us up.
We will back to domestic politics very soon.
We may see this is appalling (it is) but MoonRabbit is right.0 -
Correct, Hlukhova is near the Belarussian border.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Ukraine does NOT have a northwestern border with Russia.Chelyabinsk said:
From the Economist:HYUFD said:"The old concepts of fighting big tank battles on European land mass are over," Boris rather naively told Tobias Ellwood last year.
Russia has the biggest number of tanks in the world and has just launched the first land invasion of an independent sovereign state in Europe since WW2.
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1497139951552671744?s=20&t=M3ZRMfdjWd-gYHi9u8MyuQ
Boris, we need more tanks and we need to send them to Poland and the Baltic States
Ukraine’s army appears to have had more opportunities to employ anti-tank weapons than many supposed. America, Britain and other European allies gave Ukraine thousands of such weapons, including long-range American Javelins and shorter-range Anglo-Swedish nlaws, over the past two months. In places, these presented serious resistance to Russian advances in the north and east. It is thought that nlaws have never been used in combat before. Video footage taken around Kharkiv appears to show damaged tanks. Ukrainian officials said that Javelins and other weapons had “neutralised” an entire column of 15 t-72 tanks in Hlukhova, in the north-west of the country close to the Russian border.
You can buy 270 nlaws for the cost of upgrading one Challenger 2.0 -
SWIFT does not just underpin international payments but potentially even more importantly it is the tool that facilitates trade finance. Documentary credits (Letters of credit) and stand by letters of credit (on demand payment guarantees) are issued through the SWIFT system. It would be a major blow if Russia was excluded from this.FrancisUrquhart said:
I doubt most people really even know what SWIFT is and the media reports on it aren't always accurate i.e. it isn't actually the transfer of money, it is the messaging system.Peter_the_Punter said:
That's a very good synopsis. Thanks for linking that.FrancisUrquhart said:
Why Wasn’t Russia Cut Off From SWIFT?MoonRabbit said:
On Topic. SWIFT may be more nuanced than the Germany bashing this morning suggested. the explanation above may be true, and anti-reactionary and very thoughtful response… but it’s also true that list are the ones whose banks are exposed to Russian money.FeersumEnjineeya said:Regarding SWIFT, I see that Austria and Cyprus, in addition to Germany, Italy and Hungary, are against including it in sanctions at the moment. Austria's Chancellor Karl Nehammer said that suspending SWIFT would hurt the EU rather more than it would hurt Russia, and that Russia has its own payment system, or could immediately switch to using the Chinese system.
https://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/europa/eu-sanktionen-121.html
Does PB really know the answer on this one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-SuaO0ZSxw&t=310s
I still think that on balance it would be right to cut Russia off from Swift, but I accept that the more targetted sanctions that are already in place are more likely to prove effective.
By the way, I generally hate these kinds of survey. How any asked even knew what Swift was before the war started?0 -
Not yet.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Ukraine does NOT have a northwestern border with Russia.Chelyabinsk said:
From the Economist:HYUFD said:"The old concepts of fighting big tank battles on European land mass are over," Boris rather naively told Tobias Ellwood last year.
Russia has the biggest number of tanks in the world and has just launched the first land invasion of an independent sovereign state in Europe since WW2.
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1497139951552671744?s=20&t=M3ZRMfdjWd-gYHi9u8MyuQ
Boris, we need more tanks and we need to send them to Poland and the Baltic States
Ukraine’s army appears to have had more opportunities to employ anti-tank weapons than many supposed. America, Britain and other European allies gave Ukraine thousands of such weapons, including long-range American Javelins and shorter-range Anglo-Swedish nlaws, over the past two months. In places, these presented serious resistance to Russian advances in the north and east. It is thought that nlaws have never been used in combat before. Video footage taken around Kharkiv appears to show damaged tanks. Ukrainian officials said that Javelins and other weapons had “neutralised” an entire column of 15 t-72 tanks in Hlukhova, in the north-west of the country close to the Russian border.
You can buy 270 nlaws for the cost of upgrading one Challenger 2.
But with mini Russia there not much distinction.1 -
Hungary and Czechoslovakia both wave hello.HYUFD said:"The old concepts of fighting big tank battles on European land mass are over," Boris rather naively told Tobias Ellwood last year.
Russia has the biggest number of tanks in the world and has just launched the first land invasion of an independent sovereign state in Europe since WW2.
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1497139951552671744?s=20&t=M3ZRMfdjWd-gYHi9u8MyuQ
Boris, we need more tanks and we need to send them to Poland and the Baltic States1 -
It should say near the border with Belarus, which might as well be considered Russia at the moment.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Ukraine does NOT have a northwestern border with Russia.Chelyabinsk said:
From the Economist:HYUFD said:"The old concepts of fighting big tank battles on European land mass are over," Boris rather naively told Tobias Ellwood last year.
Russia has the biggest number of tanks in the world and has just launched the first land invasion of an independent sovereign state in Europe since WW2.
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1497139951552671744?s=20&t=M3ZRMfdjWd-gYHi9u8MyuQ
Boris, we need more tanks and we need to send them to Poland and the Baltic States
Ukraine’s army appears to have had more opportunities to employ anti-tank weapons than many supposed. America, Britain and other European allies gave Ukraine thousands of such weapons, including long-range American Javelins and shorter-range Anglo-Swedish nlaws, over the past two months. In places, these presented serious resistance to Russian advances in the north and east. It is thought that nlaws have never been used in combat before. Video footage taken around Kharkiv appears to show damaged tanks. Ukrainian officials said that Javelins and other weapons had “neutralised” an entire column of 15 t-72 tanks in Hlukhova, in the north-west of the country close to the Russian border.
You can buy 270 nlaws for the cost of upgrading one Challenger 2.1 -
There is as much chance of the UK invading RoI as there is of Sweden invading Norway. Such hypotheticals help no one and just reveal your bigotry.StuartDickson said:
Russian imperialism = badalgarkirk said:Three questions:
Was the west right to signal so clearly that it would allow an invasion without fighting back militarily?
Was the west right not to use the promise of nuclear engagement if Russia crossed line X?
Not long ago a Russian action of this sort was thought impossible - like Germany they were past that stage of political development. Wrong.
So a third question about the impossible: If the UK invaded the neutral RoI, which eastern European countries (Ukraine being one) would take decisive and military action to defend and protect the RoI against the UK?
British imperialism = good
In fact two sides of the same dud currency.2 -
Agree with you about football and golf.StuartDickson said:
Football badSunil_Prasannan said:
I love footy but hate golf! And don't get me started about cricket!StuartDickson said:
The Scottish Acts also banned golf. Bloody good legislation.Malmesbury said:
Revive the Statute of Edward IV of 1477 banning football and mandating archery in it place.FrancisUrquhart said:
That would require UEFA to have scruples.....hears the Champions League theme tune in my head, this programme is bought to you in association with Gazprom...TheScreamingEagles said:
I support this measure.tlg86 said:Seize Chelsea and then close them down.
UEFA are bellends though.
How am I supposed to get a hotel ticket for the CL final in Paris to see Liverpool win Number 7 when the French Open is taking place at the same time.
Also, UEFA are still letting Russia/Russian teams play. Go full South Africa on them.
Update it to Davy Crockett recoils rifles and we are good to go...
In 1608 - ""With the ffotebale...[there] hath beene greate disorder in our towne of Manchester we are told, and glasse windowes broken yearlye and spoyled by a companie of lewd and disordered persons ..."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_Act_1424
Golf badder
Cricket baddest0 -
Shame all the Scottish Oil has run out. Or so you BritNats keep telling us.HYUFD said:"The old concepts of fighting big tank battles on European land mass are over," Boris rather naively told Tobias Ellwood last year.
Russia has the biggest number of tanks in the world and has just launched the first land invasion of an independent sovereign state in Europe since WW2.
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1497139951552671744?s=20&t=M3ZRMfdjWd-gYHi9u8MyuQ
Boris, we need more tanks and we need to send them to Poland and the Baltic States0 -
Batting a ball away and running up and down until someone else throws it back, versus batting a ball away and then going looking for it yourself? That’s a tough one.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Cricket is the most boring "sport" in the world apart from golf!kle4 said:
I understand. When you love something so much putting it into words can be hard.Sunil_Prasannan said:
I love footy but hate golf! And don't get me started about cricket!StuartDickson said:
The Scottish Acts also banned golf. Bloody good legislation.Malmesbury said:
Revive the Statute of Edward IV of 1477 banning football and mandating archery in it place.FrancisUrquhart said:
That would require UEFA to have scruples.....hears the Champions League theme tune in my head, this programme is bought to you in association with Gazprom...TheScreamingEagles said:
I support this measure.tlg86 said:Seize Chelsea and then close them down.
UEFA are bellends though.
How am I supposed to get a hotel ticket for the CL final in Paris to see Liverpool win Number 7 when the French Open is taking place at the same time.
Also, UEFA are still letting Russia/Russian teams play. Go full South Africa on them.
Update it to Davy Crockett recoils rifles and we are good to go...
In 1608 - ""With the ffotebale...[there] hath beene greate disorder in our towne of Manchester we are told, and glasse windowes broken yearlye and spoyled by a companie of lewd and disordered persons ..."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_Act_14241 -
I think it's a principled act by a cold and soulless administration with really shitty principles.kinabalu said:
What do you think? Do you think it's a malicious act by a cold and soulless nation?BlancheLivermore said:
Was this a 'mistake'?
"Germany reportedly refused to allow Estonia to send its German-made weapons to Ukraine. Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania pledged support to Kyiv against possible Russian aggression."
https://www.dw.com/en/germany-blocks-estonian-arms-exports-to-ukraine-report/a-60520988
Your turn. What do you think of it?0 -
The big question about tanks is whether the investment in heavy armour actually buys you a big gain - much as warships now have little more than spall armour around the magazines.Chelyabinsk said:
From the Economist:HYUFD said:"The old concepts of fighting big tank battles on European land mass are over," Boris rather naively told Tobias Ellwood last year.
Russia has the biggest number of tanks in the world and has just launched the first land invasion of an independent sovereign state in Europe since WW2.
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1497139951552671744?s=20&t=M3ZRMfdjWd-gYHi9u8MyuQ
Boris, we need more tanks and we need to send them to Poland and the Baltic States
Ukraine’s army appears to have had more opportunities to employ anti-tank weapons than many supposed. America, Britain and other European allies gave Ukraine thousands of such weapons, including long-range American Javelins and shorter-range Anglo-Swedish nlaws, over the past two months. In places, these presented serious resistance to Russian advances in the north and east. It is thought that nlaws have never been used in combat before. Video footage taken around Kharkiv appears to show damaged tanks. Ukrainian officials said that Javelins and other weapons had “neutralised” an entire column of 15 t-72 tanks in Hlukhova, in the north-west of the country close to the Russian border.
You can buy 270 nlaws for the cost of upgrading one Challenger 2.
DK Brown relates the moment that armour died in the RN for the Admirals - they asked the design section to armour the magazines in a new carrier design against a rocket propelled 2,000lb bomb. The deign section pointed out that such a weapon could pierce armour thicker than any armour could be made (there are specific limits on face hardened armour).
Tanks are (possibly) doomed by a solar problem - the thick armour is there against septic threats. Armouring the top of a tank to the same level is impossible.
In a future war involving NATO, the Americans would be dropping https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BLU-108 by the zillion. Point defence systems on tanks might protect against that - maybe...
In surface anti-tank weapons, cheap top-attack munitions are here (NLAW) - fire and forget, the weapon flies itself *over* the tank and explodes downward.0 -
The B2 bombers cost well over $1 billion each, allegedly worth their weight in gold. A US politician said something like: "In the old days, if we lost a plane it was a tragedy for the family of the pilot. Nowadays it's a tragedy for the nation."kle4 said:
I dont know how anyone affords warfare. One crashed jet and you're out tens of millions.Chelyabinsk said:
From the Economist:HYUFD said:"The old concepts of fighting big tank battles on European land mass are over," Boris rather naively told Tobias Ellwood last year.
Russia has the biggest number of tanks in the world and has just launched the first land invasion of an independent sovereign state in Europe since WW2.
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1497139951552671744?s=20&t=M3ZRMfdjWd-gYHi9u8MyuQ
Boris, we need more tanks and we need to send them to Poland and the Baltic States
Ukraine’s army appears to have had more opportunities to employ anti-tank weapons than many supposed. America, Britain and other European allies gave Ukraine thousands of such weapons, including long-range American Javelins and shorter-range Anglo-Swedish nlaws, over the past two months. In places, these presented serious resistance to Russian advances in the north and east. It is thought that nlaws have never been used in combat before. Video footage taken around Kharkiv appears to show damaged tanks. Ukrainian officials said that Javelins and other weapons had “neutralised” an entire column of 15 t-72 tanks in Hlukhova, in the north-west of the country close to the Russian border.
You can buy 270 nlaws for the cost of upgrading one Challenger 2.
Then they lost one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9hb-OutGAY0 -
Can't be ruled out. If outcomes are swift (except on SWIFT) nations move on surprisingly quick.Heathener said:
I agree completely.MoonRabbit said:
This Ukraine Crisis could, likely will, quickly subside into nothing from here now, with ceasefire, Ukraine surrender, talks in Moscow between the governments.IshmaelZ said:
I think we will be fine. this is more a "in a fit of pique he decided to napalm Cheltenham" moment. I would be betting on Putin out of office by y/e if I were not so heavily invested in BJ being out of office, errm, worryingly soonTheScreamingEagles said:I'm feeling rather pessimistic at the moment.
The further invasion of Ukraine feels like a Sudetenland 1938 moment.
The reckoning on Boris is not cancelled till summer, it’s coming as soon as this thing dies down as the lazy and poor way he has handled the crisis only adds to the reasons to replace him.
Russia will have overrun Ukraine by the end of the weekend and I'm afraid it will subside as news until the next of Putin's atrocities threatens to wake us up.
We will back to domestic politics very soon.
We may see this is appalling (it is) but MoonRabbit is right.2 -
He'd get a C, Putin a U, Lukashenko an N, and Xi will provide the teas.Nigelb said:Mass murderers have to stick together.
In a telephone call with Vladimir Putin on Friday, Syrian President Bashar al-Assad praised his Russia counterpart's invasion of Ukraine as a "correction of history", a statement from the Syrian presidency says...
Not quite @ydoethur 's approach to historiography.
This all adds up to...1 -
You have already spent the money on purchasing the jet in the first place - so what is the marginal cost? Ok I accept that you may have to replace in the jet sooner than you expected, but that is a few years time?kle4 said:
I dont know how anyone affords warfare. One crashed jet and you're out tens of millions.Chelyabinsk said:
From the Economist:HYUFD said:"The old concepts of fighting big tank battles on European land mass are over," Boris rather naively told Tobias Ellwood last year.
Russia has the biggest number of tanks in the world and has just launched the first land invasion of an independent sovereign state in Europe since WW2.
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1497139951552671744?s=20&t=M3ZRMfdjWd-gYHi9u8MyuQ
Boris, we need more tanks and we need to send them to Poland and the Baltic States
Ukraine’s army appears to have had more opportunities to employ anti-tank weapons than many supposed. America, Britain and other European allies gave Ukraine thousands of such weapons, including long-range American Javelins and shorter-range Anglo-Swedish nlaws, over the past two months. In places, these presented serious resistance to Russian advances in the north and east. It is thought that nlaws have never been used in combat before. Video footage taken around Kharkiv appears to show damaged tanks. Ukrainian officials said that Javelins and other weapons had “neutralised” an entire column of 15 t-72 tanks in Hlukhova, in the north-west of the country close to the Russian border.
You can buy 270 nlaws for the cost of upgrading one Challenger 2.0 -
You don't want to go too far down that road though do you. I thought you were against fracking?StuartDickson said:
Shame all the Scottish Oil has run out. Or so you BritNats keep telling us.HYUFD said:"The old concepts of fighting big tank battles on European land mass are over," Boris rather naively told Tobias Ellwood last year.
Russia has the biggest number of tanks in the world and has just launched the first land invasion of an independent sovereign state in Europe since WW2.
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1497139951552671744?s=20&t=M3ZRMfdjWd-gYHi9u8MyuQ
Boris, we need more tanks and we need to send them to Poland and the Baltic States
(My view is that it's best to get to renewables as fast as possible, but I'd not object to fracking in the UK if it helped get Germany off the Russian hook)0 -
You're a really unpleasant extreme right winger.JosiasJessop said:
Ah, two cheeks of the same Putinist arse.Heathener said:
I agree completely.MoonRabbit said:
This Ukraine Crisis could, likely will, quickly subside into nothing from here now, with ceasefire, Ukraine surrender, talks in Moscow between the governments.IshmaelZ said:
I think we will be fine. this is more a "in a fit of pique he decided to napalm Cheltenham" moment. I would be betting on Putin out of office by y/e if I were not so heavily invested in BJ being out of office, errm, worryingly soonTheScreamingEagles said:I'm feeling rather pessimistic at the moment.
The further invasion of Ukraine feels like a Sudetenland 1938 moment.
The reckoning on Boris is not cancelled till summer, it’s coming as soon as this thing dies down as the lazy and poor way he has handled the crisis only adds to the reasons to replace him.
Russia will have overrun Ukraine by the end of the weekend and I'm afraid it will subside as news until the next of Putin's atrocities threatens to wake us up.
We will back to domestic politics very soon.
We may see this is appalling (it is) but MoonRabbit is right.
I posted a sensible comment and you resorted to your usual pompous bellicosity.
(p.s. I loathe Putin)0 -
Manchester United have made a start by dropping their sponsorship deal with Aeroflot todayMoonRabbit said:
Surely you can at least start by refusing the money - final switched, but the Gazprom sponsor link remains? F1 race cancelled, but taking the money remains?TheScreamingEagles said:
I support this measure.tlg86 said:Seize Chelsea and then close them down.
UEFA are bellends though.
How am I supposed to get a hotel ticket for the CL final in Paris to see Liverpool win Number 7 when the French Open is taking place at the same time.
Also, UEFA are still letting Russia/Russian teams play. Go full South Africa on them.1 -
Siberian overflight is expensive:
EU explained just last month that, in one year alone, European airlines paid around $420 million in overflight charges – most of it directly to…Aeroflot!
EU said it is a breach of EU laws whereby airlines should not be forced into financially supporting a direct competitor.
https://twitter.com/AlexInAir/status/14971379754062561590 -
In the Suny oblast on the main road to Kyiv, north of Kharkiv, I think.TheWhiteRabbit said:
Correct, Hlukhova is near the Belarussian border.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Ukraine does NOT have a northwestern border with Russia.Chelyabinsk said:
From the Economist:HYUFD said:"The old concepts of fighting big tank battles on European land mass are over," Boris rather naively told Tobias Ellwood last year.
Russia has the biggest number of tanks in the world and has just launched the first land invasion of an independent sovereign state in Europe since WW2.
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1497139951552671744?s=20&t=M3ZRMfdjWd-gYHi9u8MyuQ
Boris, we need more tanks and we need to send them to Poland and the Baltic States
Ukraine’s army appears to have had more opportunities to employ anti-tank weapons than many supposed. America, Britain and other European allies gave Ukraine thousands of such weapons, including long-range American Javelins and shorter-range Anglo-Swedish nlaws, over the past two months. In places, these presented serious resistance to Russian advances in the north and east. It is thought that nlaws have never been used in combat before. Video footage taken around Kharkiv appears to show damaged tanks. Ukrainian officials said that Javelins and other weapons had “neutralised” an entire column of 15 t-72 tanks in Hlukhova, in the north-west of the country close to the Russian border.
You can buy 270 nlaws for the cost of upgrading one Challenger 2.1 -
If you consider JJ to be a right winger then your whole political compass is terminally skewed.Heathener said:
You're a really unpleasant extreme right winger.JosiasJessop said:
Ah, two cheeks of the same Putinist arse.Heathener said:
I agree completely.MoonRabbit said:
This Ukraine Crisis could, likely will, quickly subside into nothing from here now, with ceasefire, Ukraine surrender, talks in Moscow between the governments.IshmaelZ said:
I think we will be fine. this is more a "in a fit of pique he decided to napalm Cheltenham" moment. I would be betting on Putin out of office by y/e if I were not so heavily invested in BJ being out of office, errm, worryingly soonTheScreamingEagles said:I'm feeling rather pessimistic at the moment.
The further invasion of Ukraine feels like a Sudetenland 1938 moment.
The reckoning on Boris is not cancelled till summer, it’s coming as soon as this thing dies down as the lazy and poor way he has handled the crisis only adds to the reasons to replace him.
Russia will have overrun Ukraine by the end of the weekend and I'm afraid it will subside as news until the next of Putin's atrocities threatens to wake us up.
We will back to domestic politics very soon.
We may see this is appalling (it is) but MoonRabbit is right.
I posted a sensible comment and you resorted to your usual pompous bellicosity.
(p.s. I loathe Putin)7 -
I mourned the death of comedy this morning. Hurrah! I was premature.IanB2 said:
Batting a ball away and running up and down until someone else throws it back, versus batting a ball away and then going looking for it yourself? That’s a tough one.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Cricket is the most boring "sport" in the world apart from golf!kle4 said:
I understand. When you love something so much putting it into words can be hard.Sunil_Prasannan said:
I love footy but hate golf! And don't get me started about cricket!StuartDickson said:
The Scottish Acts also banned golf. Bloody good legislation.Malmesbury said:
Revive the Statute of Edward IV of 1477 banning football and mandating archery in it place.FrancisUrquhart said:
That would require UEFA to have scruples.....hears the Champions League theme tune in my head, this programme is bought to you in association with Gazprom...TheScreamingEagles said:
I support this measure.tlg86 said:Seize Chelsea and then close them down.
UEFA are bellends though.
How am I supposed to get a hotel ticket for the CL final in Paris to see Liverpool win Number 7 when the French Open is taking place at the same time.
Also, UEFA are still letting Russia/Russian teams play. Go full South Africa on them.
Update it to Davy Crockett recoils rifles and we are good to go...
In 1608 - ""With the ffotebale...[there] hath beene greate disorder in our towne of Manchester we are told, and glasse windowes broken yearlye and spoyled by a companie of lewd and disordered persons ..."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_Act_14240 -
I think Putin's domestic position will come under increasing pressure and he'll end up with the perfect storm of street protests coinciding with elite discontent. I just hope Zelensky lives to see it.3
-
It was a joke about the ballooning cost of defence procurement.NickyBreakspear said:
You have already spent the money on purchasing the jet in the first place - so what is the marginal cost? Ok I accept that you may have to replace in the jet sooner than you expected, but that is a few years time?kle4 said:
I dont know how anyone affords warfare. One crashed jet and you're out tens of millions.Chelyabinsk said:
From the Economist:HYUFD said:"The old concepts of fighting big tank battles on European land mass are over," Boris rather naively told Tobias Ellwood last year.
Russia has the biggest number of tanks in the world and has just launched the first land invasion of an independent sovereign state in Europe since WW2.
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1497139951552671744?s=20&t=M3ZRMfdjWd-gYHi9u8MyuQ
Boris, we need more tanks and we need to send them to Poland and the Baltic States
Ukraine’s army appears to have had more opportunities to employ anti-tank weapons than many supposed. America, Britain and other European allies gave Ukraine thousands of such weapons, including long-range American Javelins and shorter-range Anglo-Swedish nlaws, over the past two months. In places, these presented serious resistance to Russian advances in the north and east. It is thought that nlaws have never been used in combat before. Video footage taken around Kharkiv appears to show damaged tanks. Ukrainian officials said that Javelins and other weapons had “neutralised” an entire column of 15 t-72 tanks in Hlukhova, in the north-west of the country close to the Russian border.
You can buy 270 nlaws for the cost of upgrading one Challenger 2.0
