I genuinely don’t understand this mad Republican admiration for Putin and his deeds
Yes I think Putin is right on Wokeness, I also think Mussolini handled the Mafia well and Hitler was great at flag design. I can still see that they are all malign tyrants who generally do - or did - bad stuff.
Farage is the same. And Salmond. Some weird fanboi worship of brutal power. Is that it? Is that all it is?
Putin pretends to be a Christian, is fervently nationalistic and hates gays. That's enough.
Yes, as with Trump, many people don't really follow the details - they decide on superficial evidence if someone is their sort of guy and then dismiss criticism as biased or made-up. It's like left-wingers who thought Pol Pot was a good guy until the Vietnamese - hardly right-wingers themselves - decided they'd had enough of him. And right-wingers who deplored Vietnam's intervention because they were those commies who'd caused so much trouble for the US. See Alastair's piece for more on this sort of thinking.
Most people are more or less rational, and there does come a point where they do say hell, I can't support THIS. Most of the left is now vehemently anti-Putin - all the MPs who signed the equivocal Stop the War statement have now withdrawn their support, and McDonnell said last night that he's helping organise a demo outside the Russian Embassy tomorrow. Conversely, I know Republicans who remain viscerally anti-Democrat but simply will not tolerate the idea of voting for Trump.
The extreme left in the Labour party who have supported STW and signed up to all their letters and petitions have for years agitated on the basis that almost everything aggressive about Russia is the fault of the USA, NATO and the UK.
Such as this on 22 Feb - three days ago
This dispute could and should be resolved peacefully, and that remains the only basis for a lasting settlement, rather than the imposition of military solutions. That it has not been resolved is not, however, the responsibility of the Russian or Ukrainian governments alone.
The conflict is the product of thirty years of failed policies, including the expansion of NATO and US hegemony at the expense of other countries as well as major wars of aggression by the USA, Britain and other NATO powers which have undermined international law and the United Nations.
The tragedy is that there are elements here that definitely have some basis, but they can't see the present imperative. The West definitely made errors that were not just defensive but also offensive, but Putin has been off on a course after that which was possibly unrecoverable for as much as 15 years now. Farage also doesn't know what he's talking about in mentioning 2014.
No, in the light of this week's events it is very clear that the likes of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland were justified in seeking the benefit of collective security within NATO membership, and NATO was right to extend their security guarantee accordingly, because had they not those states would clearly be next on Putin's list. Just as they were on Stalin's list when they were last invaded by Russia in 1939/40. It is not about Western "hegemony", it is about giving democratic states the right to peacefully exist through agreements that guarantee their security against a hostile expansionist dictatorship.
We hear repeatedly that Russia is 'entitled' to its security demands being met but the same people don't seem interested in how that might affect the security of Russia's neighbours.
Its bizarre.
Consider which is the most likely:
Russia attacking Finland or Finland attacking Russia. Russia attacking Estonia or Estonia attacking Russia. Russia attacking Latvia or Latvia attacking Russia.
"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard...
"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard
Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade
I cannot hate the Russian people, they are victims in this as well
We must concentrate all our energy to rid the world of Putin and his acolytes
When did Russia ever have even half-decent Government?
You'd have to be going back to the Tsars and my knowledge of them is very thin.
Aren't the Czars which are held in high regard the military expansionist ones - Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Catherine the Great ?
Most effective rulers seem to have been bastards, though not all bastards were effective. Without being so you might lose all authority.
Henry VI. Lovely man. Devoted to his people. Opposed to torture and execution. Tried to avoid heavy taxes. Notable for not fighting many wars (and losing both the ones he did).
"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard
Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade
I cannot hate the Russian people, they are victims in this as well
We must concentrate all our energy to rid the world of Putin and his acolytes
When did Russia ever have even half-decent Government?
You'd have to be going back to the Tsars and my knowledge of them is very thin.
Aren't the Czars which are held in high regard the military expansionist ones - Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Catherine the Great ?
Most effective rulers seem to have been bastards, though not all bastards were effective. Without being so you might lose all authority.
Henry VI. Lovely man. Devoted to his people. Opposed to torture and execution. Tried to avoid heavy taxes. Notable for not fighting many wars (and losing both the ones he did).
"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard
Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade
I cannot hate the Russian people, they are victims in this as well
We must concentrate all our energy to rid the world of Putin and his acolytes
When did Russia ever have even half-decent Government?
You'd have to be going back to the Tsars and my knowledge of them is very thin.
Even by the standards of their time they were not great - except perhaps in achieving conquest os their neighbours. Not much has changed.
"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard
Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade
I cannot hate the Russian people, they are victims in this as well
We must concentrate all our energy to rid the world of Putin and his acolytes
When did Russia ever have even half-decent Government?
You'd have to be going back to the Tsars and my knowledge of them is very thin.
Aren't the Czars which are held in high regard the military expansionist ones - Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Catherine the Great ?
Most effective rulers seem to have been bastards, though not all bastards were effective. Without being so you might lose all authority.
Henry VI. Lovely man. Devoted to his people. Opposed to torture and execution. Tried to avoid heavy taxes. Notable for not fighting many wars (and losing both the ones he did).
Deposed and murdered by the age of 50.
Asoka had a radical transformation. He certainly did good things and ruled a large Empire for a long time. Spectacularly enlightened for his day.
"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard
Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade
I cannot hate the Russian people, they are victims in this as well
We must concentrate all our energy to rid the world of Putin and his acolytes
When did Russia ever have even half-decent Government?
You'd have to be going back to the Tsars and my knowledge of them is very thin.
Aren't the Czars which are held in high regard the military expansionist ones - Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Catherine the Great ?
Most effective rulers seem to have been bastards, though not all bastards were effective. Without being so you might lose all authority.
Henry VI. Lovely man. Devoted to his people. Opposed to torture and execution. Tried to avoid heavy taxes. Notable for not fighting many wars (and losing both the ones he did).
Lavrov is just as bonkers as Putin. Ranting on about banning English in countries such as Ireland and what the western reaction would be, ranting about Anglo Saxons, Ukrainian government are Nazis..
Struggling hard to justify the invasion
Indeed - I struggle to believe that he's the insider to topple the dictator. There are some other figures.
(And possibly pretty foolish. I can't prove it, but I suspect that tendrils of the government employ a lot of the lower-paid graduates.)
You don't start to repay until earning over £25k and continue repayments into your 50s now as that is the age of highest earning
Since the calculations are based on lifetime earnings, that's factored in.
At the moment we have a graduate tax in all but name- see the Martin Lewis stuff on this if you want to be persuaded.
The reforms increase the tax take at the bottom end (by reducing the repayment threshold and increasing the liability time) and reduce them at the top end (by reducing the interest rate so that the richest grads will pay them off and reduce their payments to zero.)
How deliberate the misunderstanding of the current system is, I don't know.
"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard
Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade
I cannot hate the Russian people, they are victims in this as well
We must concentrate all our energy to rid the world of Putin and his acolytes
When did Russia ever have even half-decent Government?
You'd have to be going back to the Tsars and my knowledge of them is very thin.
Aren't the Czars which are held in high regard the military expansionist ones - Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Catherine the Great ?
Most effective rulers seem to have been bastards, though not all bastards were effective. Without being so you might lose all authority.
Henry VI. Lovely man. Devoted to his people. Opposed to torture and execution. Tried to avoid heavy taxes. Notable for not fighting many wars (and losing both the ones he did).
Deposed and murdered by the age of 50.
Also mad though.
Well, yes, that didn't help of course. But even before he went mad, he was under severe pressure which included at least one outright rebellion.
"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard
Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade
I cannot hate the Russian people, they are victims in this as well
We must concentrate all our energy to rid the world of Putin and his acolytes
When did Russia ever have even half-decent Government?
You'd have to be going back to the Tsars and my knowledge of them is very thin.
Aren't the Czars which are held in high regard the military expansionist ones - Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Catherine the Great ?
Most effective rulers seem to have been bastards, though not all bastards were effective. Without being so you might lose all authority.
Henry VI. Lovely man. Devoted to his people. Opposed to torture and execution. Tried to avoid heavy taxes. Notable for not fighting many wars (and losing both the ones he did).
British teacher on bbc telly in Kharkov right now. Told by the anchor that as we’ve been speaking, the mayor has just given the order to seek refuge in the subway immediately.
“Well I don’t know about that”. Rather than following the advice, he then spent 5 mins to explain how this was all Britain and America’s fault for “pushing Ukraine into NATO”.
I genuinely don’t understand this mad Republican admiration for Putin and his deeds
Yes I think Putin is right on Wokeness, I also think Mussolini handled the Mafia well and Hitler was great at flag design. I can still see that they are all malign tyrants who generally do - or did - bad stuff.
Farage is the same. And Salmond. Some weird fanboi worship of brutal power. Is that it? Is that all it is?
Putin pretends to be a Christian, is fervently nationalistic and hates gays. That's enough.
Yes, as with Trump, many people don't really follow the details - they decide on superficial evidence if someone is their sort of guy and then dismiss criticism as biased or made-up. It's like left-wingers who thought Pol Pot was a good guy until the Vietnamese - hardly right-wingers themselves - decided they'd had enough of him. And right-wingers who deplored Vietnam's intervention because they were those commies who'd caused so much trouble for the US. See Alastair's piece for more on this sort of thinking.
Most people are more or less rational, and there does come a point where they do say hell, I can't support THIS. Most of the left is now vehemently anti-Putin - all the MPs who signed the equivocal Stop the War statement have now withdrawn their support, and McDonnell said last night that he's helping organise a demo outside the Russian Embassy tomorrow. Conversely, I know Republicans who remain viscerally anti-Democrat but simply will not tolerate the idea of voting for Trump.
The extreme left in the Labour party who have supported STW and signed up to all their letters and petitions have for years agitated on the basis that almost everything aggressive about Russia is the fault of the USA, NATO and the UK.
Such as this on 22 Feb - three days ago
This dispute could and should be resolved peacefully, and that remains the only basis for a lasting settlement, rather than the imposition of military solutions. That it has not been resolved is not, however, the responsibility of the Russian or Ukrainian governments alone.
The conflict is the product of thirty years of failed policies, including the expansion of NATO and US hegemony at the expense of other countries as well as major wars of aggression by the USA, Britain and other NATO powers which have undermined international law and the United Nations.
The tragedy is that there are elements here that definitely have some basis, but they can't see the present imperative. The West definitely made errors that were not just defensive but also offensive, but Putin has been off on a course after that which was possibly unrecoverable for as much as 15 years now. Farage also doesn't know what he's talking about in mentioning 2014.
No, in the light of this week's events it is very clear that the likes of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland were justified in seeking the benefit of collective security within NATO membership, and NATO was right to extend their security guarantee accordingly, because had they not those states would clearly be next on Putin's list. Just as they were on Stalin's list when they were last invaded by Russia in 1939/40. It is not about Western "hegemony", it is about giving democratic states the right to peacefully exist through agreements that guarantee their security against a hostile expansionist dictatorship.
There was nothing wrong with giving those states memebership, I would say. The issues with any credibility were the verbal guarantees not to extend to Russia's borders, and then from a legal point of view in terms of Putin's faith in the Western heralding of the rules-based order after Iraq.
He was clearly and obviously predisposed to return to an autocratic direction as a KGB man, as mentioned , but there's no question that the west also made clear offensive mistakes there , particularly between about 2001 and 2004. The defensive mistakes then came later, with extensive Russian money and soft power allowed right into the West, when he was already set on a rotten course.
"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard
Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade
I cannot hate the Russian people, they are victims in this as well
We must concentrate all our energy to rid the world of Putin and his acolytes
When did Russia ever have even half-decent Government?
You'd have to be going back to the Tsars and my knowledge of them is very thin.
Aren't the Czars which are held in high regard the military expansionist ones - Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Catherine the Great ?
Most effective rulers seem to have been bastards, though not all bastards were effective. Without being so you might lose all authority.
Henry VI. Lovely man. Devoted to his people. Opposed to torture and execution. Tried to avoid heavy taxes. Notable for not fighting many wars (and losing both the ones he did).
Deposed and murdered by the age of 50.
He also founded Eton.
He wasn't deposed and murdered quickly enough, then.
"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard
Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade
I cannot hate the Russian people, they are victims in this as well
We must concentrate all our energy to rid the world of Putin and his acolytes
When did Russia ever have even half-decent Government?
You'd have to be going back to the Tsars and my knowledge of them is very thin.
When I did Russian History in school, when we got to the provisional Government, I almost had a feeling akin to hope. I felt like it almost came good. Of course, sat in a classroom in the late naughties I knew how it actually went...
Why wasn't more done to defend Ukraine after Crimea in 2014?
Russian oil, handy dirrty Russian money. Trump. A disbelief that Putin would go the whole 9 yards.
Western leaders over the last 15 or so years can look at hemselves in the mirror and resign themselves that the hey could have averted this by some means or another
Obama was in power in 2014!
And? I am blaming Western Leaders for the last fifteen years. Obama,, one could argue doing nothing in 2014, facitated the Putin backed Trump victory. Keep up!
Agreed.
Though it's worth remembering that Putin's propaganda was far more effective back in 2014. Quite a few were arguing on his behalf that Crimea really was Russian anyway, and that it's being part of Ukraine was an anomaly. And some even accepted the tale of a popular uprising aided by the Russians rather than an armed land grab.
What's happening now is the destruction of a democracy and unprovoked military occupation of an independent state. That's obvious even to Russia's propagandised citizens.
Sir Alex Younger (ex head of MI6) on R4 this am had an interesting take on Putin, that he had in fact changed over the years and current events are not the culmination of some decades-long strategy but the outcome of Putin’s current mindset. I guess 2014 could be seen as the first symptom of the ‘new’ Putin. He also seemed to think VVP had misjudged this situation and may come a cropper. Hope springs eternal..
I woud personally see 2008, and the South Ossetia business as the first conclusive sign of the "new" Putin. Disillusioned with the West, quietly seething about Iraq and his concerns about NATO being sidelined, and coming under pressure from his old Chechen friends to revert to authoritarian leadership. It was also exactly around 2008 that press freedom in Russia took a sudden dive, and a few months later the journalist Anna Politovskaya was murdered, probably by his henchmen from the Chechnya conflict again. The pattern seems to have been increasingly set after that.
It was also in 2008 that year that he released "learn Judo with Vladimir Putin." The cult of personality was underway.
The current situation has been an obvious scenario for years. When I said on here that we needed to push back, after Crimea, after Donbass, after MH17, after the Syrian chemical weapons debacle, after Salisbury - people said I just wanted to start WWIII.
Well, we didn't do enough then, and we're deeper into the abyss than ever.
They did not have answers, only apologies foe evil.
"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard...
Zelensky has managed, even in the midst of this.
Insofar as I have a fcuking clue, none of the Ukrainian vox pops I’ve seen have shown an iota of negativity towards the Russian people. Going by the protests in St Petersburg, Moscow and other places there seems to be quite a lot of fraternal feeling felt by Russians towards Ukrainians also. The tweet below by a Scottish journo who is pretty anti Putin seems to support this.
because its yellow? one of the colers on the Ukrainian flag?
Yes, against Chelski in blue
That's actually a really good gesture if they did that. 👍
I am not sure a bit of contrived virtue signalling really does anything - I am not sure it gives any solace to anyone in Ukraine or offends anyone in Russia . What exactly is the point beyond more Premiership virtue but empty signalling - I know you are against taking the knee for this reason
(And possibly pretty foolish. I can't prove it, but I suspect that tendrils of the government employ a lot of the lower-paid graduates.)
You don't start to repay until earning over £25k and continue repayments into your 50s now as that is the age of highest earning
Since the calculations are based on lifetime earnings, that's factored in.
At the moment we have a graduate tax in all but name- see the Martin Lewis stuff on this if you want to be persuaded.
The reforms increase the tax take at the bottom end (by reducing the repayment threshold and increasing the liability time) and reduce them at the top end (by reducing the interest rate so that the richest grads will pay them off and reduce their payments to zero.)
How deliberate the misunderstanding of the current system is, I don't know.
What makes the redistribution from poorer to richer all the more maddening is that any criticism is met with the argument, "why should a binman pay for your degree?"
It's an example of how the Right has been kicking the Left's arse for ages, because they're going to get away with it.
"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard
Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade
I cannot hate the Russian people, they are victims in this as well
We must concentrate all our energy to rid the world of Putin and his acolytes
When did Russia ever have even half-decent Government?
You'd have to be going back to the Tsars and my knowledge of them is very thin.
Aren't the Czars which are held in high regard the military expansionist ones - Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Catherine the Great ?
Most effective rulers seem to have been bastards, though not all bastards were effective. Without being so you might lose all authority.
Henry VI. Lovely man. Devoted to his people. Opposed to torture and execution. Tried to avoid heavy taxes. Notable for not fighting many wars (and losing both the ones he did).
Deposed and murdered by the age of 50.
Not sure how effective he was. Didn't he lose his marbles? And he founded Eton, which surely can't be regarded as overall; a Good Thing!
British teacher on bbc telly in Kharkov right now. Told by the anchor that as we’ve been speaking, the mayor has just given the order to seek refuge in the subway immediately.
“Well I don’t know about that”. Rather than following the advice, he then spent 5 mins to explain how this was all Britain and America’s fault for “pushing Ukraine into NATO”.
Quite amazing the propaganda job Putin has done.
Maybe he'll be joining the red army when they roll in.
Mr. Dickson, do you think Scottish nationalism, which would've separated Scotland from both the UK and EU, would also have been a 'triumph for Putin'?
I suspect that Putin would encourage Sindy too, as he did with Brexit. A major theme of his foreign policy is to foment internal division in Western countries. Hence his troll farms being anti-woke too.
It doesn't invalidate the legitimacy of the issue, whether Brexit or Sindy, or BLM, but we should be aware of Putin's manipulations, and decide issues on their own merits.
Putin also foments Wokeness, on the Woke side. Of course you fastidiously pretend otherwise
Heck, Putin probably has a Reasonable Centrist Dad department in one of his troll farms. Sowing as many divisions as possible is what he does.
He knows there will be no united or effective responsive to his invasion from the west and sadly he will be proved right. The fact we are talking about moving the Champions League final from St Petersburg as if this will strike a terrible blow to Russia indicates the paucity of the response.
There has been a united effective response. Everyone is united in wanting to make life miserable for the Russian elite for the next few years. This is the only sustainable solution albeit less quick and emotionally satisfying that firing a gun. Everyone is also united in not wanting a war with a nuclear superpower (except Ben Wallace).
So far the united response has been to make strong speeches but otherwise do very little of real substance because we can't agree what to do.
I don't think there would have been the stomach for military intervention on behalf of Ukraine so I don't think there is much else we could do to really damage Putin. He knows that and, sadly, I think he will be proved right.
All the west can realistically do now is try to come up with a united plan to deter Putin from going any further.
I genuinely don’t understand this mad Republican admiration for Putin and his deeds
Yes I think Putin is right on Wokeness, I also think Mussolini handled the Mafia well and Hitler was great at flag design. I can still see that they are all malign tyrants who generally do - or did - bad stuff.
Farage is the same. And Salmond. Some weird fanboi worship of brutal power. Is that it? Is that all it is?
Putin pretends to be a Christian, is fervently nationalistic and hates gays. That's enough.
Yes, as with Trump, many people don't really follow the details - they decide on superficial evidence if someone is their sort of guy and then dismiss criticism as biased or made-up. It's like left-wingers who thought Pol Pot was a good guy until the Vietnamese - hardly right-wingers themselves - decided they'd had enough of him. And right-wingers who deplored Vietnam's intervention because they were those commies who'd caused so much trouble for the US. See Alastair's piece for more on this sort of thinking.
Most people are more or less rational, and there does come a point where they do say hell, I can't support THIS. Most of the left is now vehemently anti-Putin - all the MPs who signed the equivocal Stop the War statement have now withdrawn their support, and McDonnell said last night that he's helping organise a demo outside the Russian Embassy tomorrow. Conversely, I know Republicans who remain viscerally anti-Democrat but simply will not tolerate the idea of voting for Trump.
The extreme left in the Labour party who have supported STW and signed up to all their letters and petitions have for years agitated on the basis that almost everything aggressive about Russia is the fault of the USA, NATO and the UK.
Such as this on 22 Feb - three days ago
This dispute could and should be resolved peacefully, and that remains the only basis for a lasting settlement, rather than the imposition of military solutions. That it has not been resolved is not, however, the responsibility of the Russian or Ukrainian governments alone.
The conflict is the product of thirty years of failed policies, including the expansion of NATO and US hegemony at the expense of other countries as well as major wars of aggression by the USA, Britain and other NATO powers which have undermined international law and the United Nations.
The tragedy is that there are elements here that definitely have some basis, but they can't see the present imperative. The West definitely made errors that were not just defensive but also offensive, but Putin has been off on a course after that which was possibly unrecoverable for as much as 15 years now. Farage also doesn't know what he's talking about in mentioning 2014.
No, in the light of this week's events it is very clear that the likes of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland were justified in seeking the benefit of collective security within NATO membership, and NATO was right to extend their security guarantee accordingly, because had they not those states would clearly be next on Putin's list. Just as they were on Stalin's list when they were last invaded by Russia in 1939/40. It is not about Western "hegemony", it is about giving democratic states the right to peacefully exist through agreements that guarantee their security against a hostile expansionist dictatorship.
There was nothing wrong with giving those states memebership, I would say. The issues were the verbal guarantees not to extend to Russia's borders, and from a legal point of view in terms of Putin's faith in the Western heralding of the rules-based order after Iraq, I would say.
He was clearly predisposed to return to an autocratic direction as a KGB man, as I said, but there's no question that the west also made clear mistakes there , particularly between about 2001 and 2004.
Putin's actions hardly made those states feel secure, did they? From Georgia onwards he has shown Russia to be an unfriendly neighbour.
If he doesn't want neighbouring countries joining a bigger defence club, he should not threaten neighbouring countries.
"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard
Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade
I cannot hate the Russian people, they are victims in this as well
We must concentrate all our energy to rid the world of Putin and his acolytes
When did Russia ever have even half-decent Government?
You'd have to be going back to the Tsars and my knowledge of them is very thin.
Aren't the Czars which are held in high regard the military expansionist ones - Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Catherine the Great ?
Most effective rulers seem to have been bastards, though not all bastards were effective. Without being so you might lose all authority.
Henry VI. Lovely man. Devoted to his people. Opposed to torture and execution. Tried to avoid heavy taxes. Notable for not fighting many wars (and losing both the ones he did).
In one of the northern suburbs though whether it's the main advance or a reconnaissance unit or something else no one knows but it makes a dramatic headline.
Here's another - the FTSE 100 UP 2% today so yesterday's panic has become today's buying opportunity - can't all be down to the price of oil?
A suggestion the invasion will end in a partition of Ukraine with Kyiv and the areas to the east of the Dnipro river forming a new pro-Russian client state and the western areas allowed to remain for now.
"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard
Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade
I cannot hate the Russian people, they are victims in this as well
We must concentrate all our energy to rid the world of Putin and his acolytes
When did Russia ever have even half-decent Government?
You'd have to be going back to the Tsars and my knowledge of them is very thin.
Aren't the Czars which are held in high regard the military expansionist ones - Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Catherine the Great ?
Most effective rulers seem to have been bastards, though not all bastards were effective. Without being so you might lose all authority.
Henry VI. Lovely man. Devoted to his people. Opposed to torture and execution. Tried to avoid heavy taxes. Notable for not fighting many wars (and losing both the ones he did).
Deposed and murdered by the age of 50.
Not sure how effective he was. Didn't he lose his marbles? And he founded Eton, which surely can't be regarded as overall; a Good Thing!
That was my point. I was agreeing 'most effective rulers are bastards' by showing how one who wasn't a bastard was a disaster.
Not been following today's news but if I understand right that Germany and Italy are blocking Russia's expulsion from SWIFT then that is an utter disgrace.
They've sold their souls for Russian gas it seems and need to get it back Swiftly.
Apologies if I've misunderstood.
Ah, nothing like the smell of a visceral anti Europe post from Bartholomew Roberts in the morning.
Mr. Dickson, do you think Scottish nationalism, which would've separated Scotland from both the UK and EU, would also have been a 'triumph for Putin'?
I suspect that Putin would encourage Sindy too, as he did with Brexit. A major theme of his foreign policy is to foment internal division in Western countries. Hence his troll farms being anti-woke too.
It doesn't invalidate the legitimacy of the issue, whether Brexit or Sindy, or BLM, but we should be aware of Putin's manipulations, and decide issues on their own merits.
Putin also foments Wokeness, on the Woke side. Of course you fastidiously pretend otherwise
Heck, Putin probably has a Reasonable Centrist Dad department in one of his troll farms. Sowing as many divisions as possible is what he does.
He knows there will be no united or effective responsive to his invasion from the west and sadly he will be proved right. The fact we are talking about moving the Champions League final from St Petersburg as if this will strike a terrible blow to Russia indicates the paucity of the response.
There has been a united effective response. Everyone is united in wanting to make life miserable for the Russian elite for the next few years. This is the only sustainable solution albeit less quick and emotionally satisfying that firing a gun. Everyone is also united in not wanting a war with a nuclear superpower (except Ben Wallace).
So far the united response has been to make strong speeches but otherwise do very little of real substance because we can't agree what to do.
I don't think there would have been the stomach for military intervention on behalf of Ukraine so I don't think there is much else we could do to really damage Putin. He knows that and, sadly, I think he will be proved right.
All the west can realistically do now is try to come up with a united plan to deter Putin from going any further.
Certainly sanctions will make no difference to anything. As has just been explained on BBC News, the UK has imposed sanctions eight (AIRI) times on Russia since WWII and they've never achieved anything. The Russian economy is influenced more than anything by the oil price, and the rising price on the back of the crisis will actually deliver them more $$$
"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard
Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade
I cannot hate the Russian people, they are victims in this as well
We must concentrate all our energy to rid the world of Putin and his acolytes
When did Russia ever have even half-decent Government?
You'd have to be going back to the Tsars and my knowledge of them is very thin.
When I did Russian History in school, when we got to the provisional Government, I almost had a feeling akin to hope. I felt like it almost came good. Of course, sat in a classroom in the late naughties I knew how it actually went...
The biggest problem the Provisional Government had was their attempt to follow rules and laws.
Spending all that time working out how to create a constitution, then get a vote on that....
Anyone else would have had the Bolsheviks on trial as bunch of foreign funded terrorists and shot before lunch.
(And possibly pretty foolish. I can't prove it, but I suspect that tendrils of the government employ a lot of the lower-paid graduates.)
You don't start to repay until earning over £25k and continue repayments into your 50s now as that is the age of highest earning
The pay-level for the start of repayments has gone down, and the amount that will actually be paid has gone up.
Martin Lewis was very critical of the changes on the box last night.
The changes make it a graduate tax, except if you earn enough it isn't. A complete mess IMO.
Actually they make it less of a tax and more of a loan.
That's the trap. By forcing higher payments, you make it look like more of a loan. But if the reality is 50%+ of people still can't repay it, you've just got a worse tax.
British teacher on bbc telly in Kharkov right now. Told by the anchor that as we’ve been speaking, the mayor has just given the order to seek refuge in the subway immediately.
“Well I don’t know about that”. Rather than following the advice, he then spent 5 mins to explain how this was all Britain and America’s fault for “pushing Ukraine into NATO”.
Quite amazing the propaganda job Putin has done.
Maybe he'll be joining the red army when they roll in.
Hopefully, his new friends will give him exactly what he deserves.
British teacher on bbc telly in Kharkov right now. Told by the anchor that as we’ve been speaking, the mayor has just given the order to seek refuge in the subway immediately.
“Well I don’t know about that”. Rather than following the advice, he then spent 5 mins to explain how this was all Britain and America’s fault for “pushing Ukraine into NATO”.
Quite amazing the propaganda job Putin has done.
Maybe he'll be joining the red army when they roll in.
Mr. Dean, but did his dynasty/empire collapse shortly after his death?
It reminds me a bit of Diocletian's tetrachy. A governing system isn't good if it only functions during the reign of the founder.
50 years. Under weak kings. You can't have everything though. We were looking for autocratic rulers who were effective but not outright bastards. I think Ashoka probably qualifies in his later years.
"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard
Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade
I cannot hate the Russian people, they are victims in this as well
We must concentrate all our energy to rid the world of Putin and his acolytes
When did Russia ever have even half-decent Government?
You'd have to be going back to the Tsars and my knowledge of them is very thin.
Aren't the Czars which are held in high regard the military expansionist ones - Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Catherine the Great ?
Most effective rulers seem to have been bastards, though not all bastards were effective. Without being so you might lose all authority.
Henry VI. Lovely man. Devoted to his people. Opposed to torture and execution. Tried to avoid heavy taxes. Notable for not fighting many wars (and losing both the ones he did).
Deposed and murdered by the age of 50.
Not sure how effective he was. Didn't he lose his marbles? And he founded Eton, which surely can't be regarded as overall; a Good Thing!
That was my point. I was agreeing 'most effective rulers are bastards' by showing how one who wasn't a bastard was a disaster.
Take the point, but he was a penny or two short of a shilling all his life, I believe. And as he got older of course, it got worse.
Not been following today's news but if I understand right that Germany and Italy are blocking Russia's expulsion from SWIFT then that is an utter disgrace.
They've sold their souls for Russian gas it seems and need to get it back Swiftly.
Apologies if I've misunderstood.
Ah, nothing like the smell of a visceral anti Europe post from Bartholomew Roberts in the morning.
Seems many in Europe are saying the same thing to be fair
Why wasn't more done to defend Ukraine after Crimea in 2014?
Russian oil, handy dirrty Russian money. Trump. A disbelief that Putin would go the whole 9 yards.
Western leaders over the last 15 or so years can look at hemselves in the mirror and resign themselves that the hey could have averted this by some means or another
Obama was in power in 2014!
And? I am blaming Western Leaders for the last fifteen years. Obama,, one could argue doing nothing in 2014, facitated the Putin backed Trump victory. Keep up!
Agreed.
Though it's worth remembering that Putin's propaganda was far more effective back in 2014. Quite a few were arguing on his behalf that Crimea really was Russian anyway, and that it's being part of Ukraine was an anomaly. And some even accepted the tale of a popular uprising aided by the Russians rather than an armed land grab.
What's happening now is the destruction of a democracy and unprovoked military occupation of an independent state. That's obvious even to Russia's propagandised citizens.
Sir Alex Younger (ex head of MI6) on R4 this am had an interesting take on Putin, that he had in fact changed over the years and current events are not the culmination of some decades-long strategy but the outcome of Putin’s current mindset. I guess 2014 could be seen as the first symptom of the ‘new’ Putin. He also seemed to think VVP had misjudged this situation and may come a cropper. Hope springs eternal..
I woud personally see 2008, and the South Ossetia business as the first conclusive sign of the "new" Putin. Disillusioned with the West, quietly seething about Iraq and his concerns about NATO being sidelined, and coming under pressure from his old Chechen friends to revert to authoritarian leadership. It was also exactly around 2008 that press freedom in Russia took a sudden dive, and a few months later the journalist Anna Politovskaya was murdered, probably by his henchmen from the Chechnya conflict again. The pattern seems to have been increasingly set after that.
It was also in 2008 that year that he released "learn Judo with Vladimir Putin." The cult of personality was underway.
The current situation has been an obvious scenario for years. When I said on here that we needed to push back, after Crimea, after Donbass, after MH17, after the Syrian chemical weapons debacle, after Salisbury - people said I just wanted to start WWIII.
Well, we didn't do enough then, and we're deeper into the abyss than ever.
They did not have answers, only apologies foe evil.
They were too busy filling their pockets with Russian lucre.
Why wasn't more done to defend Ukraine after Crimea in 2014?
Russian oil, handy dirrty Russian money. Trump. A disbelief that Putin would go the whole 9 yards.
Western leaders over the last 15 or so years can look at hemselves in the mirror and resign themselves that the hey could have averted this by some means or another
Obama was in power in 2014!
And? I am blaming Western Leaders for the last fifteen years. Obama,, one could argue doing nothing in 2014, facitated the Putin backed Trump victory. Keep up!
Agreed.
Though it's worth remembering that Putin's propaganda was far more effective back in 2014. Quite a few were arguing on his behalf that Crimea really was Russian anyway, and that it's being part of Ukraine was an anomaly. And some even accepted the tale of a popular uprising aided by the Russians rather than an armed land grab.
What's happening now is the destruction of a democracy and unprovoked military occupation of an independent state. That's obvious even to Russia's propagandised citizens.
Sir Alex Younger (ex head of MI6) on R4 this am had an interesting take on Putin, that he had in fact changed over the years and current events are not the culmination of some decades-long strategy but the outcome of Putin’s current mindset. I guess 2014 could be seen as the first symptom of the ‘new’ Putin. He also seemed to think VVP had misjudged this situation and may come a cropper. Hope springs eternal..
I woud personally see 2008, and the South Ossetia business as the first conclusive sign of the "new" Putin. Disillusioned with the West, quietly seething about Iraq and his concerns about NATO being sidelined, and coming under pressure from his old Chechen friends to revert to authoritarian leadership. It was also exactly around 2008 that press freedom in Russia took a sudden dive, and a few months later the journalist Anna Politovskaya was murdered, probably by his henchmen from the Chechnya conflict again. The pattern seems to have been increasingly set after that.
It was also in 2008 that year that he released "learn Judo with Vladimir Putin." The cult of personality was underway.
The current situation has been an obvious scenario for years. When I said on here that we needed to push back, after Crimea, after Donbass, after MH17, after the Syrian chemical weapons debacle, after Salisbury - people said I just wanted to start WWIII.
Well, we didn't do enough then, and we're deeper into the abyss than ever.
They did not have answers, only apologies foe evil.
It's true that the West should have been much more on the ball in from 2008 onwards. But then I think that was all part of a pattern - it understimated the Russian threat because it had also underestimated the consequences of not bargaining, or at least not offering any carrots, to Putin earlier on.
"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard
Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade
I cannot hate the Russian people, they are victims in this as well
We must concentrate all our energy to rid the world of Putin and his acolytes
When did Russia ever have even half-decent Government?
You'd have to be going back to the Tsars and my knowledge of them is very thin.
Aren't the Czars which are held in high regard the military expansionist ones - Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Catherine the Great ?
Most effective rulers seem to have been bastards, though not all bastards were effective. Without being so you might lose all authority.
Henry VI. Lovely man. Devoted to his people. Opposed to torture and execution. Tried to avoid heavy taxes. Notable for not fighting many wars (and losing both the ones he did).
Deposed and murdered by the age of 50.
Not sure how effective he was. Didn't he lose his marbles? And he founded Eton, which surely can't be regarded as overall; a Good Thing!
That was my point. I was agreeing 'most effective rulers are bastards' by showing how one who wasn't a bastard was a disaster.
Are there any effective non bastards? Though I suppose it would depend whether bastard applies to personality or actions (or both).
"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard
Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade
I cannot hate the Russian people, they are victims in this as well
We must concentrate all our energy to rid the world of Putin and his acolytes
When did Russia ever have even half-decent Government?
You'd have to be going back to the Tsars and my knowledge of them is very thin.
Aren't the Czars which are held in high regard the military expansionist ones - Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Catherine the Great ?
Most effective rulers seem to have been bastards, though not all bastards were effective. Without being so you might lose all authority.
Elizabeth Ist was effective and for her time not that much of a bastard.
because its yellow? one of the colers on the Ukrainian flag?
Yes, against Chelski in blue
That's actually a really good gesture if they did that. 👍
I am not sure a bit of contrived virtue signalling really does anything - I am not sure it gives any solace to anyone in Ukraine or offends anyone in Russia . What exactly is the point beyond more Premiership virtue but empty signalling - I know you are against taking the knee for this reason
I'm in favour of taking the knee.
Gestures help. They may "only" be gestures but every little helps to get the message out and build and show support.
Why wasn't more done to defend Ukraine after Crimea in 2014?
Russian oil, handy dirrty Russian money. Trump. A disbelief that Putin would go the whole 9 yards.
Western leaders over the last 15 or so years can look at hemselves in the mirror and resign themselves that the hey could have averted this by some means or another
Obama was in power in 2014!
And? I am blaming Western Leaders for the last fifteen years. Obama,, one could argue doing nothing in 2014, facitated the Putin backed Trump victory. Keep up!
Agreed.
Though it's worth remembering that Putin's propaganda was far more effective back in 2014. Quite a few were arguing on his behalf that Crimea really was Russian anyway, and that it's being part of Ukraine was an anomaly. And some even accepted the tale of a popular uprising aided by the Russians rather than an armed land grab.
What's happening now is the destruction of a democracy and unprovoked military occupation of an independent state. That's obvious even to Russia's propagandised citizens.
Sir Alex Younger (ex head of MI6) on R4 this am had an interesting take on Putin, that he had in fact changed over the years and current events are not the culmination of some decades-long strategy but the outcome of Putin’s current mindset. I guess 2014 could be seen as the first symptom of the ‘new’ Putin. He also seemed to think VVP had misjudged this situation and may come a cropper. Hope springs eternal..
I woud personally see 2008, and the South Ossetia business as the first conclusive sign of the "new" Putin. Disillusioned with the West, quietly seething about Iraq and his concerns about NATO being sidelined, and coming under pressure from his old Chechen friends to revert to authoritarian leadership. It was also exactly around 2008 that press freedom in Russia took a sudden dive, and a few months later the journalist Anna Politovskaya was murdered, probably by his henchmen from the Chechnya conflict again. The pattern seems to have been increasingly set after that.
It was also in 2008 that year that he released "learn Judo with Vladimir Putin." The cult of personality was underway.
The current situation has been an obvious scenario for years. When I said on here that we needed to push back, after Crimea, after Donbass, after MH17, after the Syrian chemical weapons debacle, after Salisbury - people said I just wanted to start WWIII.
Well, we didn't do enough then, and we're deeper into the abyss than ever.
They did not have answers, only apologies foe evil.
They were too busy filling their pockets with Russian lucre.
While Wee 'Eck was earning an honest rouble working for a UK based production company.
Not been following today's news but if I understand right that Germany and Italy are blocking Russia's expulsion from SWIFT then that is an utter disgrace.
They've sold their souls for Russian gas it seems and need to get it back Swiftly.
Apologies if I've misunderstood.
Ah, nothing like the smell of a visceral anti Europe post from Bartholomew Roberts in the morning.
It's not visceral anti Europe and shame on you if that is what you read into it!
Many European nations have been very strong on this. According to Sky's Europe correspondent last night most European nations are in favour of expelling Russia from Swift but just Italy and Germany are against it, because of gas allegedly.
So kudos to the majority of European nations who want to do the right thing and shame on the two named specific nations (and any others if they exist too) that don't!
And shame on you for thinking there's anything but revulsion at Putin invading Ukraine and a firm belief that Russia must face the most serious sanctions including SWIFT expulsion as a result.
because its yellow? one of the colers on the Ukrainian flag?
Yes, against Chelski in blue
That's actually a really good gesture if they did that. 👍
I am not sure a bit of contrived virtue signalling really does anything - I am not sure it gives any solace to anyone in Ukraine or offends anyone in Russia . What exactly is the point beyond more Premiership virtue but empty signalling - I know you are against taking the knee for this reason
I'm in favour of taking the knee.
Gestures help. They may "only" be gestures but every little helps to get the message out and build and show support.
well in this case I dont think they do "help" - I think they are useless and detract from not actually giving any help and comforting ourselves that we are helping. If we cannot ban Russia from "swift" then farting around trying to virtue signal is a bit hypocritical and pathetic
The Germans need to keep it as a lever just in case the Russians take the far worse step than invading their neighbour and DARE TO TURN OFF GERMAN GAS. The Germans have to be able to turn off the money if they do. Apparently..
"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard
Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade
I cannot hate the Russian people, they are victims in this as well
We must concentrate all our energy to rid the world of Putin and his acolytes
When did Russia ever have even half-decent Government?
You'd have to be going back to the Tsars and my knowledge of them is very thin.
Aren't the Czars which are held in high regard the military expansionist ones - Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Catherine the Great ?
Most effective rulers seem to have been bastards, though not all bastards were effective. Without being so you might lose all authority.
Elizabeth Ist was effective and for her time not that much of a bastard.
Same with Henry VIIth or Henry 1st
Wasn’t Elisabeth literally declared a bastard after her dad offed her mum?
When I did Russian History in school, when we got to the provisional Government, I almost had a feeling akin to hope. I felt like it almost came good. Of course, sat in a classroom in the late naughties I knew how it actually went...
My mother's family knew the Kerenskys and I met Mrs Kerensky (who by then, quite elderly, was separated from her husband) a few times myself - I remember wriggling in her bear-hug, as small boys do. My rather apolitical mother's view was that Kerensky was a decent guy but out of touch with popular feeling in 1917, preoccupied with constitutional reform and liberal democracy when people were close to hunger, so the Bolshevik "peace and bread" slogan cut through. She was an infant herself at the time so was merely passing on what she was told later. My impression (at two removes) is that the intelligentsia in Moscow at that time was genuinely persuaded by liberal thinking, but very much isolated from what ordinary people in provinces were thinking after 3 years of war.
The Germans need to keep it as a lever just in case the Russians take the far worse step than invading their neighbour and DARE TO TURN OFF GERMAN GAS. The Germans have to be able to turn off the money if they do. Apparently..
(And possibly pretty foolish. I can't prove it, but I suspect that tendrils of the government employ a lot of the lower-paid graduates.)
You don't start to repay until earning over £25k and continue repayments into your 50s now as that is the age of highest earning
The pay-level for the start of repayments has gone down, and the amount that will actually be paid has gone up.
Martin Lewis was very critical of the changes on the box last night.
£25k for the start of graduate repayments is still well above the median salary for a young non-graduate of £21,500
It turns out that this is not just valid for when they are young and starting out, but, shockingly, remains an imposition all the way into their thirties. And forties. And fifties. And now, the sixties.
Believe it or not.
(I'm assuming you were unaware as you just zoomed in on the earliest days of its imposition)
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Sky banging on about disgraceful that UK doesn't support a no-fly zone.
Given the Russian have the whole airspace covered by S-400 anti-aircraft system, how would you do it, even if you wanted to? You would have to take out this before you even got started, which would be WW3 stuff.
The Germans need to keep it as a lever just in case the Russians take the far worse step than invading their neighbour and DARE TO TURN OFF GERMAN GAS. The Germans have to be able to turn off the money if they do. Apparently..
They could always. as I previously suggested, take a leaf from Obama's book.
In one of the negotiations with Iran about the nuclear program, the issue of a pile of money frozen by the US since the revolution came up. Due to Iran being excluded from the SWIFT system, it couldn't be sent to Iran via bank transfer. So the Americans sent cash, shrink-wrapped, on pallets.
If Russia is excluded from SWIFT, the Germans can carry on buying gas from them in the same same way. I'm sure that Putin won't mind payment in medium denomination bills, non-sequential etc etc.
"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard
Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade
I cannot hate the Russian people, they are victims in this as well
We must concentrate all our energy to rid the world of Putin and his acolytes
When did Russia ever have even half-decent Government?
You'd have to be going back to the Tsars and my knowledge of them is very thin.
Aren't the Czars which are held in high regard the military expansionist ones - Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Catherine the Great ?
Most effective rulers seem to have been bastards, though not all bastards were effective. Without being so you might lose all authority.
Henry VI. Lovely man. Devoted to his people. Opposed to torture and execution. Tried to avoid heavy taxes. Notable for not fighting many wars (and losing both the ones he did).
Deposed and murdered by the age of 50.
Asoka had a radical transformation. He certainly did good things and ruled a large Empire for a long time. Spectacularly enlightened for his day.
Marcus Aurelius? A lot of his thinking is persuasive even today, but he was an effective military leader as well.
Sky banging on about disgraceful that UK doesn't support a no-fly zone.
Given the Russian have the whole airspace covered by S-400 anti-craft system, how would you do it, even if you wanted to? You would have to take out this before you even got started, which would be WW3 stuff.
If we were going to try that we might as well send troops, tanks and planes and retake Ukraine.
its a depressing fact of modern life and media that we have short attention spans - This forum was full of ideas and angst when the Taleban captured Afghanistan - now nobody gives it a moments thought (even on here) and its what only a few months since that ?.Ukraine will go the same way . Life and politics moves on very quickly in the 21st century
It was striking how when the Afghan story lost the drama of the US exit it faded right away. The ongoing oppression and hardship isn't enough to keep it in the news. This shows that much of the talk about our concern for the Afghan people was for show. I don't think it's due to modern short attention spans, though. I think it's more that people are naturally engaged by military plotlines and by things happening close to home or which involve the UK or the US. When those things are absent they kind of put the book down.
Why wasn't more done to defend Ukraine after Crimea in 2014?
Russian oil, handy dirrty Russian money. Trump. A disbelief that Putin would go the whole 9 yards.
Western leaders over the last 15 or so years can look at hemselves in the mirror and resign themselves that the hey could have averted this by some means or another
Obama was in power in 2014!
And? I am blaming Western Leaders for the last fifteen years. Obama,, one could argue doing nothing in 2014, facitated the Putin backed Trump victory. Keep up!
Agreed.
Though it's worth remembering that Putin's propaganda was far more effective back in 2014. Quite a few were arguing on his behalf that Crimea really was Russian anyway, and that it's being part of Ukraine was an anomaly. And some even accepted the tale of a popular uprising aided by the Russians rather than an armed land grab.
What's happening now is the destruction of a democracy and unprovoked military occupation of an independent state. That's obvious even to Russia's propagandised citizens.
Sir Alex Younger (ex head of MI6) on R4 this am had an interesting take on Putin, that he had in fact changed over the years and current events are not the culmination of some decades-long strategy but the outcome of Putin’s current mindset. I guess 2014 could be seen as the first symptom of the ‘new’ Putin. He also seemed to think VVP had misjudged this situation and may come a cropper. Hope springs eternal..
I woud personally see 2008, and the South Ossetia business as the first conclusive sign of the "new" Putin. Disillusioned with the West, quietly seething about Iraq and his concerns about NATO being sidelined, and coming under pressure from his old Chechen friends to revert to authoritarian leadership. It was also exactly around 2008 that press freedom in Russia took a sudden dive, and a few months later the journalist Anna Politovskaya was murdered, probably by his henchmen from the Chechnya conflict again. The pattern seems to have been increasingly set after that.
It was also in 2008 that year that he released "learn Judo with Vladimir Putin." The cult of personality was underway.
The current situation has been an obvious scenario for years. When I said on here that we needed to push back, after Crimea, after Donbass, after MH17, after the Syrian chemical weapons debacle, after Salisbury - people said I just wanted to start WWIII.
Well, we didn't do enough then, and we're deeper into the abyss than ever.
They did not have answers, only apologies foe evil.
They were too busy filling their pockets with Russian lucre.
While Wee 'Eck was earning an honest rouble working for a UK based production company.
He was selling an independent product to an ofcom regulated business, since you are such a smart arse can you justify any of teh millions pocketed by Tories and what services were rendered for it. Thick tw*t.
Why wasn't more done to defend Ukraine after Crimea in 2014?
Russian oil, handy dirrty Russian money. Trump. A disbelief that Putin would go the whole 9 yards.
Western leaders over the last 15 or so years can look at hemselves in the mirror and resign themselves that the hey could have averted this by some means or another
Obama was in power in 2014!
And? I am blaming Western Leaders for the last fifteen years. Obama,, one could argue doing nothing in 2014, facitated the Putin backed Trump victory. Keep up!
Agreed.
Though it's worth remembering that Putin's propaganda was far more effective back in 2014. Quite a few were arguing on his behalf that Crimea really was Russian anyway, and that it's being part of Ukraine was an anomaly. And some even accepted the tale of a popular uprising aided by the Russians rather than an armed land grab.
What's happening now is the destruction of a democracy and unprovoked military occupation of an independent state. That's obvious even to Russia's propagandised citizens.
Sir Alex Younger (ex head of MI6) on R4 this am had an interesting take on Putin, that he had in fact changed over the years and current events are not the culmination of some decades-long strategy but the outcome of Putin’s current mindset. I guess 2014 could be seen as the first symptom of the ‘new’ Putin. He also seemed to think VVP had misjudged this situation and may come a cropper. Hope springs eternal..
I woud personally see 2008, and the South Ossetia business as the first conclusive sign of the "new" Putin. Disillusioned with the West, quietly seething about Iraq and his concerns about NATO being sidelined, and coming under pressure from his old Chechen friends to revert to authoritarian leadership. It was also exactly around 2008 that press freedom in Russia took a sudden dive, and a few months later the journalist Anna Politovskaya was murdered, probably by his henchmen from the Chechnya conflict again. The pattern seems to have been increasingly set after that.
It was also in 2008 that year that he released "learn Judo with Vladimir Putin." The cult of personality was underway.
The current situation has been an obvious scenario for years. When I said on here that we needed to push back, after Crimea, after Donbass, after MH17, after the Syrian chemical weapons debacle, after Salisbury - people said I just wanted to start WWIII.
Well, we didn't do enough then, and we're deeper into the abyss than ever.
They did not have answers, only apologies foe evil.
They were too busy filling their pockets with Russian lucre.
Malc, could you point me to a post from those times where you called for more action against Russia and Putin?
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Agree the EU's response is disappointing, but SWIFT really isn't the ultimate weapon you think it is. The US's action to block Russian banks from dollar clearing is way more draconian. SWIFT can be bypassed. Dollar clearing can't.
Lavrov is just as bonkers as Putin. Ranting on about banning English in countries such as Ireland and what the western reaction would be, ranting about Anglo Saxons, Ukrainian government are Nazis..
Struggling hard to justify the invasion
LOL. A relation of Mons. Macron?
French set to replace English as EU’s ‘working language’ Notes, minutes, letters and meetings will be ‘French-first’ when France takes over European Council’s presidency In an article for Le Figaro, they said the use of French in Brussels “had diminished to the benefit of English, and more often to Globish – that ersatz of the English language, which narrows the scope of one’s thoughts, and restricts one’s ability to express him or herself”.
Sky banging on about disgraceful that UK doesn't support a no-fly zone.
Given the Russian have the whole airspace covered by S-400 anti-aircraft system, how would you do it, even if you wanted to? You would have to take out this before you even got started, which would be WW3 stuff.
So much posturing. We're dealing with the possibly the most dangerous man worldwide for 77 years.
Why wasn't more done to defend Ukraine after Crimea in 2014?
Russian oil, handy dirrty Russian money. Trump. A disbelief that Putin would go the whole 9 yards.
Western leaders over the last 15 or so years can look at hemselves in the mirror and resign themselves that the hey could have averted this by some means or another
Obama was in power in 2014!
And? I am blaming Western Leaders for the last fifteen years. Obama,, one could argue doing nothing in 2014, facitated the Putin backed Trump victory. Keep up!
Agreed.
Though it's worth remembering that Putin's propaganda was far more effective back in 2014. Quite a few were arguing on his behalf that Crimea really was Russian anyway, and that it's being part of Ukraine was an anomaly. And some even accepted the tale of a popular uprising aided by the Russians rather than an armed land grab.
What's happening now is the destruction of a democracy and unprovoked military occupation of an independent state. That's obvious even to Russia's propagandised citizens.
Sir Alex Younger (ex head of MI6) on R4 this am had an interesting take on Putin, that he had in fact changed over the years and current events are not the culmination of some decades-long strategy but the outcome of Putin’s current mindset. I guess 2014 could be seen as the first symptom of the ‘new’ Putin. He also seemed to think VVP had misjudged this situation and may come a cropper. Hope springs eternal..
I woud personally see 2008, and the South Ossetia business as the first conclusive sign of the "new" Putin. Disillusioned with the West, quietly seething about Iraq and his concerns about NATO being sidelined, and coming under pressure from his old Chechen friends to revert to authoritarian leadership. It was also exactly around 2008 that press freedom in Russia took a sudden dive, and a few months later the journalist Anna Politovskaya was murdered, probably by his henchmen from the Chechnya conflict again. The pattern seems to have been increasingly set after that.
It was also in 2008 that year that he released "learn Judo with Vladimir Putin." The cult of personality was underway.
The current situation has been an obvious scenario for years. When I said on here that we needed to push back, after Crimea, after Donbass, after MH17, after the Syrian chemical weapons debacle, after Salisbury - people said I just wanted to start WWIII.
Well, we didn't do enough then, and we're deeper into the abyss than ever.
They did not have answers, only apologies foe evil.
They were too busy filling their pockets with Russian lucre.
While Wee 'Eck was earning an honest rouble working for a UK based production company.
He was selling an independent product to an ofcom regulated business, since you are such a smart arse can you justify any of teh millions pocketed by Tories and what services were rendered for it. Thick tw*t.
"And far away behind their lines the partisans are stirring in the forest Coming unexpectedly upon their outposts, growing like a promise You'll never know, you'll never know which way to turn, which way to look you'll never see us As we're stealing through the blackness of the night You'll never know, you'll never hear us"
Why wasn't more done to defend Ukraine after Crimea in 2014?
Russian oil, handy dirrty Russian money. Trump. A disbelief that Putin would go the whole 9 yards.
Western leaders over the last 15 or so years can look at hemselves in the mirror and resign themselves that the hey could have averted this by some means or another
Obama was in power in 2014!
And? I am blaming Western Leaders for the last fifteen years. Obama,, one could argue doing nothing in 2014, facitated the Putin backed Trump victory. Keep up!
Agreed.
Though it's worth remembering that Putin's propaganda was far more effective back in 2014. Quite a few were arguing on his behalf that Crimea really was Russian anyway, and that it's being part of Ukraine was an anomaly. And some even accepted the tale of a popular uprising aided by the Russians rather than an armed land grab.
What's happening now is the destruction of a democracy and unprovoked military occupation of an independent state. That's obvious even to Russia's propagandised citizens.
Sir Alex Younger (ex head of MI6) on R4 this am had an interesting take on Putin, that he had in fact changed over the years and current events are not the culmination of some decades-long strategy but the outcome of Putin’s current mindset. I guess 2014 could be seen as the first symptom of the ‘new’ Putin. He also seemed to think VVP had misjudged this situation and may come a cropper. Hope springs eternal..
I woud personally see 2008, and the South Ossetia business as the first conclusive sign of the "new" Putin. Disillusioned with the West, quietly seething about Iraq and his concerns about NATO being sidelined, and coming under pressure from his old Chechen friends to revert to authoritarian leadership. It was also exactly around 2008 that press freedom in Russia took a sudden dive, and a few months later the journalist Anna Politovskaya was murdered, probably by his henchmen from the Chechnya conflict again. The pattern seems to have been increasingly set after that.
It was also in 2008 that year that he released "learn Judo with Vladimir Putin." The cult of personality was underway.
The current situation has been an obvious scenario for years. When I said on here that we needed to push back, after Crimea, after Donbass, after MH17, after the Syrian chemical weapons debacle, after Salisbury - people said I just wanted to start WWIII.
Well, we didn't do enough then, and we're deeper into the abyss than ever.
They did not have answers, only apologies foe evil.
They were too busy filling their pockets with Russian lucre.
While Wee 'Eck was earning an honest rouble working for a UK based production company.
He was selling an independent product to an ofcom regulated business, since you are such a smart arse can you justify any of teh millions pocketed by Tories and what services were rendered for it. Thick tw*t.
Salmond took money from Russia's propaganda arm. Tories took money from British citizens.
Yeah, that's the same thing in your eyes. And you call others thick?
Get your dick out or Salmond's arse. I've been calling Boris a disgrace who should go, why can't you do the same for Salmond even years after he's gone?
Come off it. He would be dropping the nukes on Kiev himself.
He was absolutely right about the likes of Germany not paying their way in respect to NATO and just expecting America to always be willing to do the heavy lifting.
You can think Trump was a disgraceful president while also willing to acknowledge he had a point from time to time.
Its like Corbyn, I have little to no time for him or his ideology, but you have to look at why he gained popularity, because he was the canary in the coalmine there are problems across UK society.
Disappointing there from the Taliban. They should be calling for an Ukrainian insurgency against the foreign occupier - and maybe throwing in some expert advice on how to run one.
Can anyone (Dr Y?) think of a leader who had a longish time in power who is looked upon as having been universally successful and good?
(I said 'longish time in power' as the obvious answer is someone like William Harrison)
FDR? Mind, some time ago. Apparently it was not uncommon to find framed pictures of him in the houses of working people. Can't imagine that of any contemporary politicians.
Why wasn't more done to defend Ukraine after Crimea in 2014?
Russian oil, handy dirrty Russian money. Trump. A disbelief that Putin would go the whole 9 yards.
Western leaders over the last 15 or so years can look at hemselves in the mirror and resign themselves that the hey could have averted this by some means or another
Obama was in power in 2014!
And? I am blaming Western Leaders for the last fifteen years. Obama,, one could argue doing nothing in 2014, facitated the Putin backed Trump victory. Keep up!
Agreed.
Though it's worth remembering that Putin's propaganda was far more effective back in 2014. Quite a few were arguing on his behalf that Crimea really was Russian anyway, and that it's being part of Ukraine was an anomaly. And some even accepted the tale of a popular uprising aided by the Russians rather than an armed land grab.
What's happening now is the destruction of a democracy and unprovoked military occupation of an independent state. That's obvious even to Russia's propagandised citizens.
Sir Alex Younger (ex head of MI6) on R4 this am had an interesting take on Putin, that he had in fact changed over the years and current events are not the culmination of some decades-long strategy but the outcome of Putin’s current mindset. I guess 2014 could be seen as the first symptom of the ‘new’ Putin. He also seemed to think VVP had misjudged this situation and may come a cropper. Hope springs eternal..
I woud personally see 2008, and the South Ossetia business as the first conclusive sign of the "new" Putin. Disillusioned with the West, quietly seething about Iraq and his concerns about NATO being sidelined, and coming under pressure from his old Chechen friends to revert to authoritarian leadership. It was also exactly around 2008 that press freedom in Russia took a sudden dive, and a few months later the journalist Anna Politovskaya was murdered, probably by his henchmen from the Chechnya conflict again. The pattern seems to have been increasingly set after that.
It was also in 2008 that year that he released "learn Judo with Vladimir Putin." The cult of personality was underway.
The current situation has been an obvious scenario for years. When I said on here that we needed to push back, after Crimea, after Donbass, after MH17, after the Syrian chemical weapons debacle, after Salisbury - people said I just wanted to start WWIII.
Well, we didn't do enough then, and we're deeper into the abyss than ever.
They did not have answers, only apologies foe evil.
They were too busy filling their pockets with Russian lucre.
Malc, could you point me to a post from those times where you called for more action against Russia and Putin?
No?
WTF did I have to do with Russia, that is what I pay the robbing cheating Tories thousands every month for. If they did their jobs rather than lining their pockets with any crooks money they can get then perhaps we would not be here. Get a F***ing grip and be realistic, wtf have you done about it, suare root of F*** all as you have no say in anything just like me. next it will be Salmond making money pish. PS: I have previously said that licking teh butt of dictator's would not end well.
(And possibly pretty foolish. I can't prove it, but I suspect that tendrils of the government employ a lot of the lower-paid graduates.)
You don't start to repay until earning over £25k and continue repayments into your 50s now as that is the age of highest earning
The pay-level for the start of repayments has gone down, and the amount that will actually be paid has gone up.
Martin Lewis was very critical of the changes on the box last night.
£25k for the start of graduate repayments is still well above the median salary for a young non-graduate of £21,500
It turns out that this is not just valid for when they are young and starting out, but, shockingly, remains an imposition all the way into their thirties. And forties. And fifties. And now, the sixties.
Believe it or not.
(I'm assuming you were unaware as you just zoomed in on the earliest days of its imposition)
If you study creative arts for example at university and never earn £25,000 or more then you do not need to repay a single penny of your student loan.
If as a graduate you do earn over £25,000 then yes you will now keep repaying into your 50s, not your 60s, as that is the age of peak earnings
(And possibly pretty foolish. I can't prove it, but I suspect that tendrils of the government employ a lot of the lower-paid graduates.)
You don't start to repay until earning over £25k and continue repayments into your 50s now as that is the age of highest earning
The pay-level for the start of repayments has gone down, and the amount that will actually be paid has gone up.
Martin Lewis was very critical of the changes on the box last night.
£25k for the start of graduate repayments is still well above the median salary for a young non-graduate of £21,500
It turns out that this is not just valid for when they are young and starting out, but, shockingly, remains an imposition all the way into their thirties. And forties. And fifties. And now, the sixties.
Believe it or not.
(I'm assuming you were unaware as you just zoomed in on the earliest days of its imposition)
The original Plan 1 loans went/go until 65. The amounts were, of course, much smaller.
Why wasn't more done to defend Ukraine after Crimea in 2014?
Russian oil, handy dirrty Russian money. Trump. A disbelief that Putin would go the whole 9 yards.
Western leaders over the last 15 or so years can look at hemselves in the mirror and resign themselves that the hey could have averted this by some means or another
Obama was in power in 2014!
And? I am blaming Western Leaders for the last fifteen years. Obama,, one could argue doing nothing in 2014, facitated the Putin backed Trump victory. Keep up!
Agreed.
Though it's worth remembering that Putin's propaganda was far more effective back in 2014. Quite a few were arguing on his behalf that Crimea really was Russian anyway, and that it's being part of Ukraine was an anomaly. And some even accepted the tale of a popular uprising aided by the Russians rather than an armed land grab.
What's happening now is the destruction of a democracy and unprovoked military occupation of an independent state. That's obvious even to Russia's propagandised citizens.
Sir Alex Younger (ex head of MI6) on R4 this am had an interesting take on Putin, that he had in fact changed over the years and current events are not the culmination of some decades-long strategy but the outcome of Putin’s current mindset. I guess 2014 could be seen as the first symptom of the ‘new’ Putin. He also seemed to think VVP had misjudged this situation and may come a cropper. Hope springs eternal..
I woud personally see 2008, and the South Ossetia business as the first conclusive sign of the "new" Putin. Disillusioned with the West, quietly seething about Iraq and his concerns about NATO being sidelined, and coming under pressure from his old Chechen friends to revert to authoritarian leadership. It was also exactly around 2008 that press freedom in Russia took a sudden dive, and a few months later the journalist Anna Politovskaya was murdered, probably by his henchmen from the Chechnya conflict again. The pattern seems to have been increasingly set after that.
It was also in 2008 that year that he released "learn Judo with Vladimir Putin." The cult of personality was underway.
The current situation has been an obvious scenario for years. When I said on here that we needed to push back, after Crimea, after Donbass, after MH17, after the Syrian chemical weapons debacle, after Salisbury - people said I just wanted to start WWIII.
Well, we didn't do enough then, and we're deeper into the abyss than ever.
They did not have answers, only apologies foe evil.
They were too busy filling their pockets with Russian lucre.
While Wee 'Eck was earning an honest rouble working for a UK based production company.
He was selling an independent product to an ofcom regulated business, since you are such a smart arse can you justify any of teh millions pocketed by Tories and what services were rendered for it. Thick tw*t.
Salmond took money from Russia's propaganda arm. Tories took money from British citizens.
Yeah, that's the same thing in your eyes. And you call others thick?
Get your dick out or Salmond's arse. I've been calling Boris a disgrace who should go, why can't you do the same for Salmond even years after he's gone?
How do you call for someone to go after they’ve gone?
I assume the potty mouth is the result of that fifth double espresso of the morning.
I genuinely don’t understand this mad Republican admiration for Putin and his deeds
Yes I think Putin is right on Wokeness, I also think Mussolini handled the Mafia well and Hitler was great at flag design. I can still see that they are all malign tyrants who generally do - or did - bad stuff.
Farage is the same. And Salmond. Some weird fanboi worship of brutal power. Is that it? Is that all it is?
Putin pretends to be a Christian, is fervently nationalistic and hates gays. That's enough.
Yes, as with Trump, many people don't really follow the details - they decide on superficial evidence if someone is their sort of guy and then dismiss criticism as biased or made-up. It's like left-wingers who thought Pol Pot was a good guy until the Vietnamese - hardly right-wingers themselves - decided they'd had enough of him. And right-wingers who deplored Vietnam's intervention because they were those commies who'd caused so much trouble for the US. See Alastair's piece for more on this sort of thinking.
Most people are more or less rational, and there does come a point where they do say hell, I can't support THIS. Most of the left is now vehemently anti-Putin - all the MPs who signed the equivocal Stop the War statement have now withdrawn their support, and McDonnell said last night that he's helping organise a demo outside the Russian Embassy tomorrow. Conversely, I know Republicans who remain viscerally anti-Democrat but simply will not tolerate the idea of voting for Trump.
The extreme left in the Labour party who have supported STW and signed up to all their letters and petitions have for years agitated on the basis that almost everything aggressive about Russia is the fault of the USA, NATO and the UK.
Such as this on 22 Feb - three days ago
This dispute could and should be resolved peacefully, and that remains the only basis for a lasting settlement, rather than the imposition of military solutions. That it has not been resolved is not, however, the responsibility of the Russian or Ukrainian governments alone.
The conflict is the product of thirty years of failed policies, including the expansion of NATO and US hegemony at the expense of other countries as well as major wars of aggression by the USA, Britain and other NATO powers which have undermined international law and the United Nations.
The tragedy is that there are elements here that definitely have some basis, but they can't see the present imperative. The West definitely made errors that were not just defensive but also offensive, but Putin has been off on a course after that which was possibly unrecoverable for as much as 15 years now. Farage also doesn't know what he's talking about in mentioning 2014.
No, in the light of this week's events it is very clear that the likes of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland were justified in seeking the benefit of collective security within NATO membership, and NATO was right to extend their security guarantee accordingly, because had they not those states would clearly be next on Putin's list. Just as they were on Stalin's list when they were last invaded by Russia in 1939/40. It is not about Western "hegemony", it is about giving democratic states the right to peacefully exist through agreements that guarantee their security against a hostile expansionist dictatorship.
There was nothing wrong with giving those states memebership, I would say. The issues were the verbal guarantees not to extend to Russia's borders, and from a legal point of view in terms of Putin's faith in the Western heralding of the rules-based order after Iraq, I would say.
He was clearly predisposed to return to an autocratic direction as a KGB man, as I said, but there's no question that the west also made clear mistakes there , particularly between about 2001 and 2004.
Putin's actions hardly made those states feel secure, did they? From Georgia onwards he has shown Russia to be an unfriendly neighbour.
If he doesn't want neighbouring countries joining a bigger defence club, he should not threaten neighbouring countries.
I agree, but there also seem to have been verbal assurances that Ukraine wouldn't be considered for membership. A "neutral state" option might have worked our better, but this was just one of the things sending Putin off on his crazy way.
its a depressing fact of modern life and media that we have short attention spans - This forum was full of ideas and angst when the Taleban captured Afghanistan - now nobody gives it a moments thought (even on here) and its what only a few months since that ?.Ukraine will go the same way . Life and politics moves on very quickly in the 21st century
It was striking how when the Afghan story lost the drama of the US exit it faded right away. The ongoing oppression and hardship isn't enough to keep it in the news. This shows that much of the talk about our concern for the Afghan people was for show. I don't think it's due to modern short attention spans, though. I think it's more that people are naturally engaged by military plotlines and by things happening close to home or which involve the UK or the US. When those things are absent they kind of put the book down.
In part it is the amount of information, reporting and video footage that is available. There will be no shortage from Ukraine. Ukraine is also a modern European country and is surrounded by nervous neighbours whose security we are guaranteeing. This is going to affect the public's sentiments and western politics like nothing else has since 9/11.
Nick Robinson on R4 this morning was taking pains to pronounce it Kyiv - and Lyse Doucet remarked that a big change she has noticed is that Ukrainians now take pains to correct foreigners use of the Russian pronunciation.
Comments
However, there wasn't much at the time.
Its bizarre.
Consider which is the most likely:
Russia attacking Finland or Finland attacking Russia.
Russia attacking Estonia or Estonia attacking Russia.
Russia attacking Latvia or Latvia attacking Russia.
Ditto all the way down to Georgia.
Deposed and murdered by the age of 50.
Not much has changed.
At the moment we have a graduate tax in all but name- see the Martin Lewis stuff on this if you want to be persuaded.
The reforms increase the tax take at the bottom end (by reducing the repayment threshold and increasing the liability time) and reduce them at the top end (by reducing the interest rate so that the richest grads will pay them off and reduce their payments to zero.)
How deliberate the misunderstanding of the current system is, I don't know.
Martin Lewis was very critical of the changes on the box last night.
“Well I don’t know about that”. Rather than following the advice, he then spent 5 mins to explain how this was all Britain and America’s fault for “pushing Ukraine into NATO”.
Quite amazing the propaganda job Putin has done.
He was clearly and obviously predisposed to return to an autocratic direction as a KGB man, as mentioned , but there's no question that the west also made clear offensive mistakes there , particularly between about 2001 and 2004. The defensive mistakes then came later, with extensive Russian money and soft power allowed right into the West, when he was already set on a rotten course.
Well, we didn't do enough then, and we're deeper into the abyss than ever.
They did not have answers, only apologies foe evil.
It reminds me a bit of Diocletian's tetrachy. A governing system isn't good if it only functions during the reign of the founder.
https://twitter.com/leaskyht/status/1496905696557862912?s=21
It's an example of how the Right has been kicking the Left's arse for ages, because they're going to get away with it.
And he founded Eton, which surely can't be regarded as overall; a Good Thing!
John Rentoul
@JohnRentoul
The @Independent style has changed from Kiev to Kyiv (the Ukrainians’ preferred spelling)
https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1497160804189224960
I don't think there would have been the stomach for military intervention on behalf of Ukraine so I don't think there is much else we could do to really damage Putin. He knows that and, sadly, I think he will be proved right.
All the west can realistically do now is try to come up with a united plan to deter Putin from going any further.
If he doesn't want neighbouring countries joining a bigger defence club, he should not threaten neighbouring countries.
Here's another - the FTSE 100 UP 2% today so yesterday's panic has become today's buying opportunity - can't all be down to the price of oil?
A suggestion the invasion will end in a partition of Ukraine with Kyiv and the areas to the east of the Dnipro river forming a new pro-Russian client state and the western areas allowed to remain for now.
Spending all that time working out how to create a constitution, then get a vote on that....
Anyone else would have had the Bolsheviks on trial as bunch of foreign funded terrorists and shot before lunch.
(I said 'longish time in power' as the obvious answer is someone like William Harrison)
We were looking for autocratic rulers who were effective but not outright bastards. I think Ashoka probably qualifies in his later years.
Same with Henry VIIth or Henry 1st
Gestures help. They may "only" be gestures but every little helps to get the message out and build and show support.
Why Wasn’t Russia Cut Off From SWIFT?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-SuaO0ZSxw
Many European nations have been very strong on this. According to Sky's Europe correspondent last night most European nations are in favour of expelling Russia from Swift but just Italy and Germany are against it, because of gas allegedly.
So kudos to the majority of European nations who want to do the right thing and shame on the two named specific nations (and any others if they exist too) that don't!
And shame on you for thinking there's anything but revulsion at Putin invading Ukraine and a firm belief that Russia must face the most serious sanctions including SWIFT expulsion as a result.
12% NI, 20% income tax, 9% student loan.
Which is 1% higher than a 66 yr old earning between £50,271 and £150,000...
Believe it or not.
(I'm assuming you were unaware as you just zoomed in on the earliest days of its imposition)
https://mobile.twitter.com/YoungLabourUK/status/1497149945123647498
Young Labour
@YoungLabourUK
We regret to inform you that access to the
@YoungLabourUK
Twitter account has been restricted until further notice.
As an official channel for the Youth Wing of the Labour Party, we expect certain standards of behaviour from those with responsibility for this page’s output.
The poor scrabbling about for meagre firewood in the freezing cold on a Bank Holiday?
Why hadn't he sorted fuel poverty?
Given the Russian have the whole airspace covered by S-400 anti-aircraft system, how would you do it, even if you wanted to? You would have to take out this before you even got started, which would be WW3 stuff.
https://gofund.me/2b43a9ec
Add in 13.25% Employers NI too which is every bit as much a part of their tax in reality and its even higher ...
In one of the negotiations with Iran about the nuclear program, the issue of a pile of money frozen by the US since the revolution came up. Due to Iran being excluded from the SWIFT system, it couldn't be sent to Iran via bank transfer. So the Americans sent cash, shrink-wrapped, on pallets.
If Russia is excluded from SWIFT, the Germans can carry on buying gas from them in the same same way. I'm sure that Putin won't mind payment in medium denomination bills, non-sequential etc etc.
If you're going to do WW3, do it properly.
No?
https://twitter.com/frances_coppola/status/1497128247204749312?s=21
https://twitter.com/JustinPulitzer/status/1496709662602932224?s=20&t=42voNY77PZHViCB_UA1U8w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjKajpMoUxM
"And far away behind their lines the partisans are stirring in the forest
Coming unexpectedly upon their outposts, growing like a promise
You'll never know, you'll never know which way to turn, which way to look you'll never see us
As we're stealing through the blackness of the night
You'll never know, you'll never hear us"
Tories took money from British citizens.
Yeah, that's the same thing in your eyes. And you call others thick?
Get your dick out or Salmond's arse. I've been calling Boris a disgrace who should go, why can't you do the same for Salmond even years after he's gone?
You can think Trump was a disgraceful president while also willing to acknowledge he had a point from time to time.
Its like Corbyn, I have little to no time for him or his ideology, but you have to look at why he gained popularity, because he was the canary in the coalmine there are problems across UK society.
Apparently it was not uncommon to find framed pictures of him in the houses of working people. Can't imagine that of any contemporary politicians.
Get a F***ing grip and be realistic, wtf have you done about it, suare root of F*** all as you have no say in anything just like me.
next it will be Salmond making money pish.
PS: I have previously said that licking teh butt of dictator's would not end well.
If you study creative arts for example at university and never earn £25,000 or more then you do not need to repay a single penny of your student loan.
If as a graduate you do earn over £25,000 then yes you will now keep repaying into your 50s, not your 60s, as that is the age of peak earnings
I assume the potty mouth is the result of that fifth double espresso of the morning.
All too late now, and we are where we are.