🚨 #UKRAINE NEWS | Battle of Chernihiv - According to the UK Ministry of Defence, Russian forces attacking Chernihiv on the 24th were halted outside the city. Ukraine say they repelled an attack by the Russian army in Chernihiv and seized Russian equipment and documents.
Bullies and tyrants are only crushed when decisive and punitive action is taken against them.
NATO should admit Ukraine with effect from midnight tonight.
NATO admitting Russia more likely.
I'll go with Finland.
Bosnia are next in the queue but Serbia will probably invade them to stop it happening.
Yep. It will kick off there any day now under cover of all the rest of the mess in Ukraine. Unless Putin orders his puppets in Balkans to hang fire for some reason.
Hmmm… remind me, who were Tito and Stalin allied with? Must have been right evil bastards?
Tito was never really 'allied' with anybody. He occasionally worked with other people when it suited his purposes.
He was also the author of one of three letters Stalin kept by him at all times, presumably because he was amused by it. The gist ran:
'Joe, stop sending those assassins of yours. They're useless fuckers and I'm getting bored of shooting them after they've cocked up. If you keep doing it, I'll send one of my teams to deal with you, and I won't need to send another.'
Damn gutsy people, the Ukrainians. If their resistance hastens the end of Putin in the Kremlin, then the world will owe them a huge debt of gratitude.
They stand at the opposite end of the spectrum of regard than those spineless, self-centred leaders within the EU. Today more than ever, I am relieved we are now unshackled from that moral vacuum.
Macron has performed better than Johnson, I would say personally. I can't see what lasting impact Johnson and Truss with all their arm waving have made, anywhere in this crisis.
Biden has provided accurate intelligence ; Macron has kept a channel of communication open. That's about it, as far as I can see.
The last I saw this week was that he was claiming that Putin had been "duplicitous".
He sounded like a Mark who had only just noticed he'd been had.
(Yes, I am skeptical where all things Marcon are concerned.)
But he's also carved out an independent channel of communication, which remains crucial when you're dealing with a madman. I'm not sure what Johnson's done distinct from the US that will leave any lasting legacy on how this conflict works out, by comparison.
This also depends on what happens next, ofcourse. Overall I think he's achieved little that's distinct so far, though.
What good is an "independent" channel of communication, when he communicates at variance with the West's general position, and portrays that Putin's interlocutors are going to tolerate an invasion?
If push comes to shove, independent communication are what places such as Switzerland are for.
We're at an extremely dangerous juncture, and it appears Putin may not be entirely all there mentally. Good channels of communication straight to a major European power are absolutely crucial in this situation.
Bullies and tyrants are only crushed when decisive and punitive action is taken against them.
NATO should admit Ukraine with effect from midnight tonight.
NATO admitting Russia more likely.
I'll go with Finland.
Bosnia are next in the queue but Serbia will probably invade them to stop it happening.
Yep. It will kick off there any day now under cover of all the rest of the mess in Ukraine. Unless Putin orders his puppets in Balkans to hang fire for some reason.
Hmmm… remind me, who were Tito and Stalin allied with? Must have been right evil bastards?
Tito was never really 'allied' with anybody. He occasionally worked with other people when it suited his purposes.
He was also the author of one of three letters Stalin kept by him at all times, presumably because he was amused by it. The gist ran:
'Joe, stop sending those assassins of yours. They're useless fuckers and I'm getting bored of shooting them after they've cocked up. If you keep doing it, I'll send one of my teams to deal with you, and I won't need to send another.'
But did Tito actually have any/many people assassinated ?
Sometimes war provides a moment of clarity. What this war has clarified is the idiocy of the Putin worshipers in the West. This group congregates on the far Left and the far Right. Those on the Left are perhaps more easily dealt with. Their idiocy isn't driven by their feelings towards Putin and Putinism primarily, but by an unbalanced hatred of Western capitalism and Western foreign policy, a bizarre inability to comprehend that, wile we are not perfect, we are not always the bad guy. I find those on the Right more concerning, because their Putin worship seems to be more genuine. They genuinely admire his strong man posturing, his muscular defence of Christian Europe, his attacks on Western decadence, Wokeness and the like. As though it is not precisely that mindset that has led him to this hideous, murderous assault on Ukraine. I hope that this grotesque admiration of this brutal, limited man and his toxic ideology will be the first casualty of this war.
Simply put, the people who are dying must be doing so for a greater purpose, and it is for us to decide whether or not that is the case. We are either abandoning europe to tyranny, or we aren't.
Champions League final moved from Russia to Paris.
I'm pleasantly surprised by this and the speed of this.
Now I’m just hoping that the FIS (world skiing’s governing body) cancels their two Russian events in March, and that the NHL kick out their pro-Putin star players.
Oh yes, and that the UCI immediately suspends all Russian racers from the spring classics and grand tours. Fuck em.
Bullies and tyrants are only crushed when decisive and punitive action is taken against them.
NATO should admit Ukraine with effect from midnight tonight.
NATO admitting Russia more likely.
I'll go with Finland.
Bosnia are next in the queue but Serbia will probably invade them to stop it happening.
Yep. It will kick off there any day now under cover of all the rest of the mess in Ukraine. Unless Putin orders his puppets in Balkans to hang fire for some reason.
Hmmm… remind me, who were Tito and Stalin allied with? Must have been right evil bastards?
Tito was never really 'allied' with anybody. He occasionally worked with other people when it suited his purposes.
He was also the author of one of three letters Stalin kept by him at all times, presumably because he was amused by it. The gist ran:
'Joe, stop sending those assassins of yours. They're useless fuckers and I'm getting bored of shooting them after they've cocked up. If you keep doing it, I'll send one of my teams to deal with you, and I won't need to send another.'
Bullies and tyrants are only crushed when decisive and punitive action is taken against them.
NATO should admit Ukraine with effect from midnight tonight.
NATO admitting Russia more likely.
I'll go with Finland.
Bosnia are next in the queue but Serbia will probably invade them to stop it happening.
Yep. It will kick off there any day now under cover of all the rest of the mess in Ukraine. Unless Putin orders his puppets in Balkans to hang fire for some reason.
Hmmm… remind me, who were Tito and Stalin allied with? Must have been right evil bastards?
Tito was never really 'allied' with anybody. He occasionally worked with other people when it suited his purposes.
He was also the author of one of three letters Stalin kept by him at all times, presumably because he was amused by it. The gist ran:
'Joe, stop sending those assassins of yours. They're useless fuckers and I'm getting bored of shooting them after they've cocked up. If you keep doing it, I'll send one of my teams to deal with you, and I won't need to send another.'
But did Tito actually have any/many people assassinated ?
Yes - lots.
And a nice little program of expelling anyone guilt of being a bit Italian from Yugoslavia - ethnic cleansing. Tidying up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rijeka etc.....
Bullies and tyrants are only crushed when decisive and punitive action is taken against them.
NATO should admit Ukraine with effect from midnight tonight.
NATO admitting Russia more likely.
I'll go with Finland.
Bosnia are next in the queue but Serbia will probably invade them to stop it happening.
Yep. It will kick off there any day now under cover of all the rest of the mess in Ukraine. Unless Putin orders his puppets in Balkans to hang fire for some reason.
Hmmm… remind me, who were Tito and Stalin allied with? Must have been right evil bastards?
Tito was never really 'allied' with anybody. He occasionally worked with other people when it suited his purposes.
He was also the author of one of three letters Stalin kept by him at all times, presumably because he was amused by it. The gist ran:
'Joe, stop sending those assassins of yours. They're useless fuckers and I'm getting bored of shooting them after they've cocked up. If you keep doing it, I'll send one of my teams to deal with you, and I won't need to send another.'
But did Tito actually have any/many people assassinated ?
I don't think it was fun being an ethnic German in Yugoslavia in the mid 1940s, of which there were quite a lot not linked to Nazism.
As for political enemies that I will admit I don't know.
My MP has facebook posted about a 1% council tax rise and 3% adult social care precept increase. But the BBC describes it as a 4% increase.
Now the district, fire, police and parish still needs to be added on (298.54, 101.38, 224.25, 83.03 at last count) but those are two completely different numbers.
From my last bill...
(1749.26- 182.89) + 1% = 1582.03 182.89 + 3% = 188.38 ---------- 1582.03 + 188.38 = 1770.41 (Band E) <- Calc according to MP graphic 1749.26 * 1.04 = 1819.23 (Band E) <- Calc according to BBC
Why wasn't more done to defend Ukraine after Crimea in 2014?
Russian oil, handy dirrty Russian money. Trump. A disbelief that Putin would go the whole 9 yards.
Western leaders over the last 15 or so years can look at hemselves in the mirror and resign themselves that the hey could have averted this by some means or another
Obama was in power in 2014!
And? I am blaming Western Leaders for the last fifteen years. Obama,, one could argue doing nothing in 2014, facitated the Putin backed Trump victory. Keep up!
Agreed.
Though it's worth remembering that Putin's propaganda was far more effective back in 2014. Quite a few were arguing on his behalf that Crimea really was Russian anyway, and that it's being part of Ukraine was an anomaly. And some even accepted the tale of a popular uprising aided by the Russians rather than an armed land grab.
What's happening now is the destruction of a democracy and unprovoked military occupation of an independent state. That's obvious even to Russia's propagandised citizens.
Sir Alex Younger (ex head of MI6) on R4 this am had an interesting take on Putin, that he had in fact changed over the years and current events are not the culmination of some decades-long strategy but the outcome of Putin’s current mindset. I guess 2014 could be seen as the first symptom of the ‘new’ Putin. He also seemed to think VVP had misjudged this situation and may come a cropper. Hope springs eternal..
I woud personally see 2008, and the South Ossetia business as the first conclusive sign of the "new" Putin. Disillusioned with the West, quietly seething about Iraq and his concerns about NATO being sidelined, and coming under pressure from his old Chechen friends to revert to authoritarian leadership. It was also exactly around 2008 that press freedom in Russia took a sudden dive, and a few months later the journalist Anna Politovskaya was murdered, probably by his henchmen from the Chechnya conflict again. The pattern seems to have been increasingly set after that.
It was also in 2008 that year that he released "learn Judo with Vladimir Putin." The cult of personality was underway.
Sometimes war provides a moment of clarity. What this war has clarified is the idiocy of the Putin worshipers in the West. This group congregates on the far Left and the far Right. Those on the Left are perhaps more easily dealt with. Their idiocy isn't driven by their feelings towards Putin and Putinism primarily, but by an unbalanced hatred of Western capitalism and Western foreign policy, a bizarre inability to comprehend that, wile we are not perfect, we are not always the bad guy. I find those on the Right more concerning, because their Putin worship seems to be more genuine. They genuinely admire his strong man posturing, his muscular defence of Christian Europe, his attacks on Western decadence, Wokeness and the like. As though it is not precisely that mindset that has led him to this hideous, murderous assault on Ukraine. I hope that this grotesque admiration of this brutal, limited man and his toxic ideology will be the first casualty of this war.
Yes even in microcosm, the absence of the sinister Trumpton ‘Mr Ed’ on this forum is perhaps telling.
Good on Napoli and Barcelona last night. Would be good to see this at all PL games this weekend and the EFL Cup Final:
I’m hoping the Liverpool fans are suitably noisy about Chelsea’s owner and have banners prepared so anyone watching globally get the message.
Related though, the bit of the UEFA statement that amused me about the move of the final to Paris (probably could have waited until after this round and give it to a country with no teams potentially in the final)….
"Uefa wishes to express its thanks and appreciation to French Republic President Emmanuel Macron for his personal support and commitment to have European club football’s most prestigious game moved to France at a time of unparalleled crisis.”
Who would have thought that Macron would move so quickly to secure a prestigious sporting event in Paris?
Bullies and tyrants are only crushed when decisive and punitive action is taken against them.
NATO should admit Ukraine with effect from midnight tonight.
NATO admitting Russia more likely.
I'll go with Finland.
Bosnia are next in the queue but Serbia will probably invade them to stop it happening.
Yep. It will kick off there any day now under cover of all the rest of the mess in Ukraine. Unless Putin orders his puppets in Balkans to hang fire for some reason.
Hmmm… remind me, who were Tito and Stalin allied with? Must have been right evil bastards?
Tito was never really 'allied' with anybody. He occasionally worked with other people when it suited his purposes.
He was also the author of one of three letters Stalin kept by him at all times, presumably because he was amused by it. The gist ran:
'Joe, stop sending those assassins of yours. They're useless fuckers and I'm getting bored of shooting them after they've cocked up. If you keep doing it, I'll send one of my teams to deal with you, and I won't need to send another.'
But did Tito actually have any/many people assassinated ?
I don't think it was fun being an ethnic German in Yugoslavia in the mid 1940s, of which there were quite a lot not linked to Nazism.
As for political enemies that I will admit I don't know.
The liberating Red Army didn't like them either, AIUI; treated them rather like they did the Transylvanian Saxons,
"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
Why wasn't more done to defend Ukraine after Crimea in 2014?
Russian oil, handy dirrty Russian money. Trump. A disbelief that Putin would go the whole 9 yards.
Western leaders over the last 15 or so years can look at hemselves in the mirror and resign themselves that the hey could have averted this by some means or another
Obama was in power in 2014!
And? I am blaming Western Leaders for the last fifteen years. Obama,, one could argue doing nothing in 2014, facitated the Putin backed Trump victory. Keep up!
Agreed.
Though it's worth remembering that Putin's propaganda was far more effective back in 2014. Quite a few were arguing on his behalf that Crimea really was Russian anyway, and that it's being part of Ukraine was an anomaly. And some even accepted the tale of a popular uprising aided by the Russians rather than an armed land grab.
What's happening now is the destruction of a democracy and unprovoked military occupation of an independent state. That's obvious even to Russia's propagandised citizens.
Sir Alex Younger (ex head of MI6) on R4 this am had an interesting take on Putin, that he had in fact changed over the years and current events are not the culmination of some decades-long strategy but the outcome of Putin’s current mindset. I guess 2014 could be seen as the first symptom of the ‘new’ Putin. He also seemed to think VVP had misjudged this situation and may come a cropper. Hope springs eternal..
I woud personally see 2008, and the South Ossetia business as the first conclusive sign of the "new" Putin. Disillusioned with the West, quietly seething about Iraq and his concerns about NATO being sidelined, and coming under pressure from his old Chechen friends to revert to authoritarian leadership. It was also exactly around 2008 that press freedom in Russia took a sudden dive, and a few months later the journalist Anna Politovskaya was murdered, probably by his henchmen from the Chechnya conflict again. The pattern seems to have been increasingly set after that.
It was also in 2008 that year that he released "learn Judo with Vladimir Putin." The cult of personality was underway.
Why wasn't more done to defend Ukraine after Crimea in 2014?
Russian oil, handy dirrty Russian money. Trump. A disbelief that Putin would go the whole 9 yards.
Western leaders over the last 15 or so years can look at hemselves in the mirror and resign themselves that the hey could have averted this by some means or another
Obama was in power in 2014!
And? I am blaming Western Leaders for the last fifteen years. Obama,, one could argue doing nothing in 2014, facitated the Putin backed Trump victory. Keep up!
Agreed.
Though it's worth remembering that Putin's propaganda was far more effective back in 2014. Quite a few were arguing on his behalf that Crimea really was Russian anyway, and that it's being part of Ukraine was an anomaly. And some even accepted the tale of a popular uprising aided by the Russians rather than an armed land grab.
What's happening now is the destruction of a democracy and unprovoked military occupation of an independent state. That's obvious even to Russia's propagandised citizens.
Sir Alex Younger (ex head of MI6) on R4 this am had an interesting take on Putin, that he had in fact changed over the years and current events are not the culmination of some decades-long strategy but the outcome of Putin’s current mindset. I guess 2014 could be seen as the first symptom of the ‘new’ Putin. He also seemed to think VVP had misjudged this situation and may come a cropper. Hope springs eternal..
I woud personally see 2008, and the South Ossetia business as the first conclusive sign of the "new" Putin. Disillusioned with the West, quietly seething about Iraq and his concerns about NATO being sidelined, and coming under pressure from his old Chechen friends to revert to authoritarian leadership. It was also exactly around 2008 that press freedom in Russia took a sudden dive, and a few months later the journalist Anna Politovskaya was murdered, probably by his henchmen from the Chechnya conflict again. The pattern seems to have been increasingly set after that.
It was also in 2008 that year that he released "learn Judo with Vladimir Putin." The cult of personality was underway.
June 1999 NATO troops were beaten to Pristina airport by Russian Paratroopers in Kosovo, Russia was highly critical of the Kosovo intervention.... several weeks after that event Putin became Russian PM (under an ailing President) thats when the relationship soured
Lol, Ukraine's tragedy is a Scottish Yoon's opportunity to whine about the Paddys.
Obviously the 2 are not directly comparable.
However nonetheless, the Republic of Ireland now calls itself Ireland thus making a claim to Northern Ireland. Throughout the Brexit talks the Republic of Ireland also worked with the EU to bring Northern Ireland into its orbit.
The main difference is Ireland would not invade Northern Ireland as Russia invaded Ukraine, not least as the UK has a bigger militarily than the Republic of Ireland has
It’s like the GFA never happened. Of course for some it never did.
Sometimes war provides a moment of clarity. What this war has clarified is the idiocy of the Putin worshipers in the West. This group congregates on the far Left and the far Right. Those on the Left are perhaps more easily dealt with. Their idiocy isn't driven by their feelings towards Putin and Putinism primarily, but by an unbalanced hatred of Western capitalism and Western foreign policy, a bizarre inability to comprehend that, wile we are not perfect, we are not always the bad guy. I find those on the Right more concerning, because their Putin worship seems to be more genuine. They genuinely admire his strong man posturing, his muscular defence of Christian Europe, his attacks on Western decadence, Wokeness and the like. As though it is not precisely that mindset that has led him to this hideous, murderous assault on Ukraine. I hope that this grotesque admiration of this brutal, limited man and his toxic ideology will be the first casualty of this war.
I’m basically an optimist. One really has no other option in the current circumstances. Things will get better. And we will learn.
"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard
Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade
Mr. Dickson, do you think Scottish nationalism, which would've separated Scotland from both the UK and EU, would also have been a 'triumph for Putin'?
I suspect that Putin would encourage Sindy too, as he did with Brexit. A major theme of his foreign policy is to foment internal division in Western countries. Hence his troll farms being anti-woke too.
It doesn't invalidate the legitimacy of the issue, whether Brexit or Sindy, or BLM, but we should be aware of Putin's manipulations, and decide issues on their own merits.
Putin also foments Wokeness, on the Woke side. Of course you fastidiously pretend otherwise
Heck, Putin probably has a Reasonable Centrist Dad department in one of his troll farms. Sowing as many divisions as possible is what he does.
Correct. Putin understands how to undermine liberal democracies and render them ineffectual against the likes of Russia and China.
He knows there will be no united or effective responsive to his invasion from the west and sadly he will be proved right. The fact we are talking about moving the Champions League final from St Petersburg as if this will strike a terrible blow to Russia indicates the paucity of the response.
The response is unlikely to be any better next time particularly if Trump makes it back to the White House and Germany is still dependent on Russian energy.
"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
I genuinely don’t understand this mad Republican admiration for Putin and his deeds
Yes I think Putin is right on Wokeness, I also think Mussolini handled the Mafia well and Hitler was great at flag design. I can still see that they are all malign tyrants who generally do - or did - bad stuff.
Farage is the same. And Salmond. Some weird fanboi worship of brutal power. Is that it? Is that all it is?
Putin pretends to be a Christian, is fervently nationalistic and hates gays. That's enough.
Yes, as with Trump, many people don't really follow the details - they decide on superficial evidence if someone is their sort of guy and then dismiss criticism as biased or made-up. It's like left-wingers who thought Pol Pot was a good guy until the Vietnamese - hardly right-wingers themselves - decided they'd had enough of him. And right-wingers who deplored Vietnam's intervention because they were those commies who'd caused so much trouble for the US. See Alastair's piece for more on this sort of thinking.
Most people are more or less rational, and there does come a point where they do say hell, I can't support THIS. Most of the left is now vehemently anti-Putin - all the MPs who signed the equivocal Stop the War statement have now withdrawn their support, and McDonnell said last night that he's helping organise a demo outside the Russian Embassy tomorrow. Conversely, I know Republicans who remain viscerally anti-Democrat but simply will not tolerate the idea of voting for Trump.
The extreme left in the Labour party who have supported STW and signed up to all their letters and petitions have for years agitated on the basis that almost everything aggressive about Russia is the fault of the USA, NATO and the UK.
Such as this on 22 Feb - three days ago
This dispute could and should be resolved peacefully, and that remains the only basis for a lasting settlement, rather than the imposition of military solutions. That it has not been resolved is not, however, the responsibility of the Russian or Ukrainian governments alone.
The conflict is the product of thirty years of failed policies, including the expansion of NATO and US hegemony at the expense of other countries as well as major wars of aggression by the USA, Britain and other NATO powers which have undermined international law and the United Nations.
The tragedy is that there are elements here that definitely have some basis, but they can't see the present imperative. The West definitely made errors that were not just defensive but also offensive, but Putin has been off on a course after that which was possibly unrecoverable for as much as 15 years now. Farage also doesn't know what he's talking about in mentioning 2014.
I think that is fair. The causes of the Second World War were set in the Treaty of Versailles, though it needed a Hitler to set Europe on fire.
The causes of this conflict go back to the West's response to the fall of the Soviet Union, though it needed a Putin to set Ukraine on fire.
Good on Napoli and Barcelona last night. Would be good to see this at all PL games this weekend and the EFL Cup Final:
I’m hoping the Liverpool fans are suitably noisy about Chelsea’s owner and have banners prepared so anyone watching globally get the message.
Related though, the bit of the UEFA statement that amused me about the move of the final to Paris (probably could have waited until after this round and give it to a country with no teams potentially in the final)….
"Uefa wishes to express its thanks and appreciation to French Republic President Emmanuel Macron for his personal support and commitment to have European club football’s most prestigious game moved to France at a time of unparalleled crisis.”
Who would have thought that Macron would move so quickly to secure a prestigious sporting event in Paris?
Please spit more venom in your posts. Most unherdlike to be so restrained.
"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard
Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade
I think we can legitimately hold the Russian people responsible for the action of their leaders. I don't see any reason to let them off the hook so easily.
Bullies and tyrants are only crushed when decisive and punitive action is taken against them.
NATO should admit Ukraine with effect from midnight tonight.
NATO admitting Russia more likely.
I'll go with Finland.
Bosnia are next in the queue but Serbia will probably invade them to stop it happening.
Yep. It will kick off there any day now under cover of all the rest of the mess in Ukraine. Unless Putin orders his puppets in Balkans to hang fire for some reason.
Hmmm… remind me, who were Tito and Stalin allied with? Must have been right evil bastards?
Tito was never really 'allied' with anybody. He occasionally worked with other people when it suited his purposes.
He was also the author of one of three letters Stalin kept by him at all times, presumably because he was amused by it. The gist ran:
'Joe, stop sending those assassins of yours. They're useless fuckers and I'm getting bored of shooting them after they've cocked up. If you keep doing it, I'll send one of my teams to deal with you, and I won't need to send another.'
But did Tito actually have any/many people assassinated ?
Yes - lots.
And a nice little program of expelling anyone guilt of being a bit Italian from Yugoslavia - ethnic cleansing. Tidying up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rijeka etc.....
I knew about the murders and expulsions but not foreign assassinations of political enemies.
"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard
Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade
Seems that it needs to be relearned by the strong man fanbois a bit more frequently than every decade.
Why wasn't more done to defend Ukraine after Crimea in 2014?
Russian oil, handy dirrty Russian money. Trump. A disbelief that Putin would go the whole 9 yards.
Western leaders over the last 15 or so years can look at hemselves in the mirror and resign themselves that the hey could have averted this by some means or another
Obama was in power in 2014!
And? I am blaming Western Leaders for the last fifteen years. Obama,, one could argue doing nothing in 2014, facitated the Putin backed Trump victory. Keep up!
Agreed.
Though it's worth remembering that Putin's propaganda was far more effective back in 2014. Quite a few were arguing on his behalf that Crimea really was Russian anyway, and that it's being part of Ukraine was an anomaly. And some even accepted the tale of a popular uprising aided by the Russians rather than an armed land grab.
What's happening now is the destruction of a democracy and unprovoked military occupation of an independent state. That's obvious even to Russia's propagandised citizens.
Sir Alex Younger (ex head of MI6) on R4 this am had an interesting take on Putin, that he had in fact changed over the years and current events are not the culmination of some decades-long strategy but the outcome of Putin’s current mindset. I guess 2014 could be seen as the first symptom of the ‘new’ Putin. He also seemed to think VVP had misjudged this situation and may come a cropper. Hope springs eternal..
I woud personally see 2008, and the South Ossetia business as the first conclusive sign of the "new" Putin. Disillusioned with the West, quietly seething about Iraq and his concerns about NATO being sidelined, and coming under pressure from his old Chechen friends to revert to authoritarian leadership. It was also exactly around 2008 that press freedom in Russia took a sudden dive, and a few months later the journalist Anna Politovskaya was murdered, probably by his henchmen from the Chechnya conflict again. The pattern seems to have been increasingly set after that.
It was also in 2008 that year that he released "learn Judo with Vladimir Putin." The cult of personality was underway.
June 1999 NATO troops were beaten to Pristina airport by Russian Paratroopers in Kosovo, Russia was highly critical of the Kosovo intervention.... several weeks after that event Putin became Russian PM (under an ailing President) thats when the relationship soured
Serbia was a long, long time ally of Russia.
The Greater Russian Nationalists saw the Yugoslav Wars in terms of their ally Serbia, doing the tough work of keeping that part of the world for the Slavs.
The gradual pushing back of Serbia (and the broader Serb community) and the eventual defeat of the Greater Serbian Nationalists, was seen as yet another humiliation for Russia.
Sometimes war provides a moment of clarity. What this war has clarified is the idiocy of the Putin worshipers in the West. This group congregates on the far Left and the far Right. Those on the Left are perhaps more easily dealt with. Their idiocy isn't driven by their feelings towards Putin and Putinism primarily, but by an unbalanced hatred of Western capitalism and Western foreign policy, a bizarre inability to comprehend that, wile we are not perfect, we are not always the bad guy. I find those on the Right more concerning, because their Putin worship seems to be more genuine. They genuinely admire his strong man posturing, his muscular defence of Christian Europe, his attacks on Western decadence, Wokeness and the like. As though it is not precisely that mindset that has led him to this hideous, murderous assault on Ukraine. I hope that this grotesque admiration of this brutal, limited man and his toxic ideology will be the first casualty of this war.
There are certainly different aspects of the political right - authoritarian right, business right, conservative right and libertarian right being some of them.
Its certainly an indictment of the GOP failings in government (and perhaps US society in general) pre Trump that it allowed such an opportunity for Trump.
"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard
Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade
I cannot hate the Russian people, they are victims in this as well
We must concentrate all our energy to rid the world of Putin and his acolytes
Sometimes war provides a moment of clarity. What this war has clarified is the idiocy of the Putin worshipers in the West. This group congregates on the far Left and the far Right. Those on the Left are perhaps more easily dealt with. Their idiocy isn't driven by their feelings towards Putin and Putinism primarily, but by an unbalanced hatred of Western capitalism and Western foreign policy, a bizarre inability to comprehend that, wile we are not perfect, we are not always the bad guy. I find those on the Right more concerning, because their Putin worship seems to be more genuine. They genuinely admire his strong man posturing, his muscular defence of Christian Europe, his attacks on Western decadence, Wokeness and the like. As though it is not precisely that mindset that has led him to this hideous, murderous assault on Ukraine. I hope that this grotesque admiration of this brutal, limited man and his toxic ideology will be the first casualty of this war.
Yes even in microcosm, the absence of the sinister Trumpton ‘Mr Ed’ on this forum is perhaps telling.
It isn't particularly helpful trying to make all this about petty culture war related disputes. I could write similar posts ridiculing the 'woke' left for being obsessed with things that happened British history that supposedly make us sinners beyond redemption, whilst taking little interest in Putin and other present day tyrants. It isn't the day for that, though.
The reality is that a lot of people on both left and right misread the nature of the Russian regime, sometimes people make mistakes and that is life. We can now all see it for what it is, and there are very few defenders of it today.
"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard
Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade
I cannot hate the Russian people, they are victims in this as well
We must concentrate all our energy to rid the world of Putin and his acolytes
When did Russia ever have even half-decent Government?
You'd have to be going back to the Tsars and my knowledge of them is very thin.
Mr. Dickson, do you think Scottish nationalism, which would've separated Scotland from both the UK and EU, would also have been a 'triumph for Putin'?
I suspect that Putin would encourage Sindy too, as he did with Brexit. A major theme of his foreign policy is to foment internal division in Western countries. Hence his troll farms being anti-woke too.
It doesn't invalidate the legitimacy of the issue, whether Brexit or Sindy, or BLM, but we should be aware of Putin's manipulations, and decide issues on their own merits.
Putin also foments Wokeness, on the Woke side. Of course you fastidiously pretend otherwise
Heck, Putin probably has a Reasonable Centrist Dad department in one of his troll farms. Sowing as many divisions as possible is what he does.
He knows there will be no united or effective responsive to his invasion from the west and sadly he will be proved right. The fact we are talking about moving the Champions League final from St Petersburg as if this will strike a terrible blow to Russia indicates the paucity of the response.
There has been a united effective response. Everyone is united in wanting to make life miserable for the Russian elite for the next few years. This is the only sustainable solution albeit less quick and emotionally satisfying that firing a gun. Everyone is also united in not wanting a war with a nuclear superpower (except Ben Wallace).
"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard
Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade
I think we can legitimately hold the Russian people responsible for the action of their leaders. I don't see any reason to let them off the hook so easily.
No, Russia is not a democracy, and it is unlikely that Putin would be in power now if it was. He does not have widespread popular support in Russia for his actions. I think we can only legitimately hold Russian people with wealth and power responsible for the action of their leaders. I do not think that we can hold responsible those brave Russians who are protesting today at the actions of their regime.
Bullies and tyrants are only crushed when decisive and punitive action is taken against them.
NATO should admit Ukraine with effect from midnight tonight.
NATO admitting Russia more likely.
I'll go with Finland.
Bosnia are next in the queue but Serbia will probably invade them to stop it happening.
Yep. It will kick off there any day now under cover of all the rest of the mess in Ukraine. Unless Putin orders his puppets in Balkans to hang fire for some reason.
Hmmm… remind me, who were Tito and Stalin allied with? Must have been right evil bastards?
Tito was never really 'allied' with anybody. He occasionally worked with other people when it suited his purposes.
He was also the author of one of three letters Stalin kept by him at all times, presumably because he was amused by it. The gist ran:
'Joe, stop sending those assassins of yours. They're useless fuckers and I'm getting bored of shooting them after they've cocked up. If you keep doing it, I'll send one of my teams to deal with you, and I won't need to send another.'
But did Tito actually have any/many people assassinated ?
Yes - lots.
And a nice little program of expelling anyone guilt of being a bit Italian from Yugoslavia - ethnic cleansing. Tidying up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rijeka etc.....
I knew about the murders and expulsions but not foreign assassinations of political enemies.
Mostly they tended to make the mistake of returning to Yugoslavia and got the classic trial+plus+pre+ordered+bullet that revolutionaries so love....
There were fair number of suspicious deaths/murders among the exiles, though.
Mr. Punter, one of the few things I know of the Tsars is that Nicholas II was hamstrung by his father deliberately not teaching him how to rule until he was older. Except his father died sooner than he anticipated...
"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard
Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade
I cannot hate the Russian people, they are victims in this as well
We must concentrate all our energy to rid the world of Putin and his acolytes
When did Russia ever have even half-decent Government?
You'd have to be going back to the Tsars and my knowledge of them is very thin.
Most of them were pretty shit as well. About the only ones who were half decent were Alexander II, Catherine II and Peter the Great - and the last two were a right nasty pair who just happened to be competent rulers. Alexander II, meanwhile, tried his best but was a bit of a muppet. Unforgettably, he was assassinated when he shouted out loud that he was fine and perfectly safe following the first attempt, causing the assassin to throw a second bomb which worked.
Good on Napoli and Barcelona last night. Would be good to see this at all PL games this weekend and the EFL Cup Final:
I’m hoping the Liverpool fans are suitably noisy about Chelsea’s owner and have banners prepared so anyone watching globally get the message.
Related though, the bit of the UEFA statement that amused me about the move of the final to Paris (probably could have waited until after this round and give it to a country with no teams potentially in the final)….
"Uefa wishes to express its thanks and appreciation to French Republic President Emmanuel Macron for his personal support and commitment to have European club football’s most prestigious game moved to France at a time of unparalleled crisis.”
Who would have thought that Macron would move so quickly to secure a prestigious sporting event in Paris?
Please spit more venom in your posts. Most unherdlike to be so restrained.
Hahahaha! You utter hypocritical twat.
If it had been Boris securing the Champions league final you would have been on spouting your usual crap against the English.
Mr. Dickson, do you think Scottish nationalism, which would've separated Scotland from both the UK and EU, would also have been a 'triumph for Putin'?
I suspect that Putin would encourage Sindy too, as he did with Brexit. A major theme of his foreign policy is to foment internal division in Western countries. Hence his troll farms being anti-woke too.
It doesn't invalidate the legitimacy of the issue, whether Brexit or Sindy, or BLM, but we should be aware of Putin's manipulations, and decide issues on their own merits.
Putin also foments Wokeness, on the Woke side. Of course you fastidiously pretend otherwise
Heck, Putin probably has a Reasonable Centrist Dad department in one of his troll farms. Sowing as many divisions as possible is what he does.
He knows there will be no united or effective responsive to his invasion from the west and sadly he will be proved right. The fact we are talking about moving the Champions League final from St Petersburg as if this will strike a terrible blow to Russia indicates the paucity of the response.
There has been a united effective response. Everyone is united in wanting to make life miserable for the Russian elite for the next few years. This is the only sustainable solution albeit less quick and emotionally satisfying that firing a gun. Everyone is also united in not wanting a war with a nuclear superpower (except Ben Wallace).
Ummm, Ben Wallace was in a joint interview on R4 this morning with a Ukrainian parliamentarian where he was saying precisely that he does not want NATO troops or no fly zone in Ukraine because he does not want it to escalate into a major war with Russia.
"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard
Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade
I cannot hate the Russian people, they are victims in this as well
We must concentrate all our energy to rid the world of Putin and his acolytes
When did Russia ever have even half-decent Government?
You'd have to be going back to the Tsars and my knowledge of them is very thin.
Why wasn't more done to defend Ukraine after Crimea in 2014?
Russian oil, handy dirrty Russian money. Trump. A disbelief that Putin would go the whole 9 yards.
Western leaders over the last 15 or so years can look at hemselves in the mirror and resign themselves that the hey could have averted this by some means or another
Obama was in power in 2014!
And? I am blaming Western Leaders for the last fifteen years. Obama,, one could argue doing nothing in 2014, facitated the Putin backed Trump victory. Keep up!
Agreed.
Though it's worth remembering that Putin's propaganda was far more effective back in 2014. Quite a few were arguing on his behalf that Crimea really was Russian anyway, and that it's being part of Ukraine was an anomaly. And some even accepted the tale of a popular uprising aided by the Russians rather than an armed land grab.
What's happening now is the destruction of a democracy and unprovoked military occupation of an independent state. That's obvious even to Russia's propagandised citizens.
Sir Alex Younger (ex head of MI6) on R4 this am had an interesting take on Putin, that he had in fact changed over the years and current events are not the culmination of some decades-long strategy but the outcome of Putin’s current mindset. I guess 2014 could be seen as the first symptom of the ‘new’ Putin. He also seemed to think VVP had misjudged this situation and may come a cropper. Hope springs eternal..
I woud personally see 2008, and the South Ossetia business as the first conclusive sign of the "new" Putin. Disillusioned with the West, quietly seething about Iraq and his concerns about NATO being sidelined, and coming under pressure from his old Chechen friends to revert to authoritarian leadership. It was also exactly around 2008 that press freedom in Russia took a sudden dive, and a few months later the journalist Anna Politovskaya was murdered, probably by his henchmen from the Chechnya conflict again. The pattern seems to have been increasingly set after that.
It was also in 2008 that year that he released "learn Judo with Vladimir Putin." The cult of personality was underway.
June 1999 NATO troops were beaten to Pristina airport by Russian Paratroopers in Kosovo, Russia was highly critical of the Kosovo intervention.... several weeks after that event Putin became Russian PM (under an ailing President) thats when the relationship soured
After 9-11 that did strongly change, though. He made very pro-Western statements by Russian standards, and helped the US use to post-Soviet bases, as mentioned a couple of days ago.
After that, he felt that he had got very little in return ,and that Iraq was a slap in the face not only to him but the existing global order. His point of view on that had some merit.
Angry, disillusioned, bitter, encouraged by his Chechen hardmen to stamp down his authority, all these things seemed to have helped convince him to return to the old autocrat inside, and the longstanding Russian approach. Game over all the way back in 2008, or even 2007, I think.
Lavrov is just as bonkers as Putin. Ranting on about banning English in countries such as Ireland and what the western reaction would be, ranting about Anglo Saxons, Ukrainian government are Nazis..
"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard
Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade
I think we can legitimately hold the Russian people responsible for the action of their leaders. I don't see any reason to let them off the hook so easily.
No, Russia is not a democracy, and it is unlikely that Putin would be in power now if it was. He does not have widespread popular support in Russia for his actions. I think we can only legitimately hold Russian people with wealth and power responsible for the action of their leaders. I do not think that we can hold responsible those brave Russians who are protesting today at the actions of their regime.
I understand, and I certainly don't have anything but goodwill towards the Russian people. Nonetheless I still think that we should look to make life hard for all of them. (I admit the parallels with Iran, for example, isn't encouraging)
I woud personally see 2008, and the South Ossetia business as the first conclusive sign of the "new" Putin. Disillusioned with the West, quietly seething about Iraq and his concerns about NATO being sidelined, and coming under pressure from his old Chechen friends to revert to authoritarian leadership. It was also exactly around 2008 that press freedom in Russia took a sudden dive, and a few months later the journalist Anna Politovskaya was murdered, probably by his henchmen from the Chechnya conflict again. The pattern seems to have been increasingly set after that.
It was also in 2008 that year that he released "learn Judo with Vladimir Putin." The cult of personality was underway.
The sinking of the submarine Kursk for me way back in 2000. Given that the narrative for much of the 90s had been that we now had friendly relations with Russia, even if we were not yet allied, the Russian reaction to Western offers of help was quite revealing. Now I didn't instantly realise where it would lead, but that was when I started to feel that maybe Russia was not as friendly as we were being told.
I genuinely don’t understand this mad Republican admiration for Putin and his deeds
Yes I think Putin is right on Wokeness, I also think Mussolini handled the Mafia well and Hitler was great at flag design. I can still see that they are all malign tyrants who generally do - or did - bad stuff.
Farage is the same. And Salmond. Some weird fanboi worship of brutal power. Is that it? Is that all it is?
Putin pretends to be a Christian, is fervently nationalistic and hates gays. That's enough.
Yes, as with Trump, many people don't really follow the details - they decide on superficial evidence if someone is their sort of guy and then dismiss criticism as biased or made-up. It's like left-wingers who thought Pol Pot was a good guy until the Vietnamese - hardly right-wingers themselves - decided they'd had enough of him. And right-wingers who deplored Vietnam's intervention because they were those commies who'd caused so much trouble for the US. See Alastair's piece for more on this sort of thinking.
Most people are more or less rational, and there does come a point where they do say hell, I can't support THIS. Most of the left is now vehemently anti-Putin - all the MPs who signed the equivocal Stop the War statement have now withdrawn their support, and McDonnell said last night that he's helping organise a demo outside the Russian Embassy tomorrow. Conversely, I know Republicans who remain viscerally anti-Democrat but simply will not tolerate the idea of voting for Trump.
The extreme left in the Labour party who have supported STW and signed up to all their letters and petitions have for years agitated on the basis that almost everything aggressive about Russia is the fault of the USA, NATO and the UK.
Such as this on 22 Feb - three days ago
This dispute could and should be resolved peacefully, and that remains the only basis for a lasting settlement, rather than the imposition of military solutions. That it has not been resolved is not, however, the responsibility of the Russian or Ukrainian governments alone.
The conflict is the product of thirty years of failed policies, including the expansion of NATO and US hegemony at the expense of other countries as well as major wars of aggression by the USA, Britain and other NATO powers which have undermined international law and the United Nations.
The tragedy is that there are elements here that definitely have some basis, but they can't see the present imperative. The West definitely made errors that were not just defensive but also offensive, but Putin has been off on a course after that which was possibly unrecoverable for as much as 15 years now. Farage also doesn't know what he's talking about in mentioning 2014.
I think that is fair. The causes of the Second World War were set in the Treaty of Versailles, though it needed a Hitler to set Europe on fire.
The causes of this conflict go back to the West's response to the fall of the Soviet Union, though it needed a Putin to set Ukraine on fire.
Yes. The West made a series of dreadful errors in the years following the fall of the Wall.
its a depressing fact of modern life and media that we have short attention spans - This forum was full of ideas and angst when the Taleban captured Afghanistan - now nobody gives it a moments thought (even on here) and its what only a few months since that ?.Ukraine will go the same way . Life and politics moves on very quickly in the 21st century
"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard
Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade
I think we can legitimately hold the Russian people responsible for the action of their leaders. I don't see any reason to let them off the hook so easily.
No, Russia is not a democracy, and it is unlikely that Putin would be in power now if it was. He does not have widespread popular support in Russia for his actions. I think we can only legitimately hold Russian people with wealth and power responsible for the action of their leaders. I do not think that we can hold responsible those brave Russians who are protesting today at the actions of their regime.
I understand, and I certainly don't have anything but goodwill towards the Russian people. Nonetheless I still think that we should look to make life hard for all of them. (I admit the parallels with Iran, for example, isn't encouraging)
It would be hard to find a government and nation more structurally, intellectually and temperamentally suited to bypassing sanctions than Russia. Just about anybody in a position of any power is a scheming criminal to start with.
its a depressing fact of modern life and media that we have short attention spans - This forum was full of ideas and angst when the Taleban captured Afghanistan - now nobody gives it a moments thought (even on here) and its what only a few months since that ?.Ukraine will go the same way . Life and politics moves on very quickly in the 21st century
Sorry, I didn't make it past "modern life". I hope the rest of the post was good though.
I genuinely don’t understand this mad Republican admiration for Putin and his deeds
Yes I think Putin is right on Wokeness, I also think Mussolini handled the Mafia well and Hitler was great at flag design. I can still see that they are all malign tyrants who generally do - or did - bad stuff.
Farage is the same. And Salmond. Some weird fanboi worship of brutal power. Is that it? Is that all it is?
Putin pretends to be a Christian, is fervently nationalistic and hates gays. That's enough.
Yes, as with Trump, many people don't really follow the details - they decide on superficial evidence if someone is their sort of guy and then dismiss criticism as biased or made-up. It's like left-wingers who thought Pol Pot was a good guy until the Vietnamese - hardly right-wingers themselves - decided they'd had enough of him. And right-wingers who deplored Vietnam's intervention because they were those commies who'd caused so much trouble for the US. See Alastair's piece for more on this sort of thinking.
Most people are more or less rational, and there does come a point where they do say hell, I can't support THIS. Most of the left is now vehemently anti-Putin - all the MPs who signed the equivocal Stop the War statement have now withdrawn their support, and McDonnell said last night that he's helping organise a demo outside the Russian Embassy tomorrow. Conversely, I know Republicans who remain viscerally anti-Democrat but simply will not tolerate the idea of voting for Trump.
The extreme left in the Labour party who have supported STW and signed up to all their letters and petitions have for years agitated on the basis that almost everything aggressive about Russia is the fault of the USA, NATO and the UK.
Such as this on 22 Feb - three days ago
This dispute could and should be resolved peacefully, and that remains the only basis for a lasting settlement, rather than the imposition of military solutions. That it has not been resolved is not, however, the responsibility of the Russian or Ukrainian governments alone.
The conflict is the product of thirty years of failed policies, including the expansion of NATO and US hegemony at the expense of other countries as well as major wars of aggression by the USA, Britain and other NATO powers which have undermined international law and the United Nations.
The tragedy is that there are elements here that definitely have some basis, but they can't see the present imperative. The West definitely made errors that were not just defensive but also offensive, but Putin has been off on a course after that which was possibly unrecoverable for as much as 15 years now. Farage also doesn't know what he's talking about in mentioning 2014.
I think that is fair. The causes of the Second World War were set in the Treaty of Versailles, though it needed a Hitler to set Europe on fire.
The causes of this conflict go back to the West's response to the fall of the Soviet Union, though it needed a Putin to set Ukraine on fire.
Yes. The West made a series of dreadful errors in the years following the fall of the Wall.
Sorry, just replied to an earlier message of yours and it came across as rude and hostile when was supposed to be more joshing. My apologies.
Good on Napoli and Barcelona last night. Would be good to see this at all PL games this weekend and the EFL Cup Final:
I’m hoping the Liverpool fans are suitably noisy about Chelsea’s owner and have banners prepared so anyone watching globally get the message.
Related though, the bit of the UEFA statement that amused me about the move of the final to Paris (probably could have waited until after this round and give it to a country with no teams potentially in the final)….
"Uefa wishes to express its thanks and appreciation to French Republic President Emmanuel Macron for his personal support and commitment to have European club football’s most prestigious game moved to France at a time of unparalleled crisis.”
Who would have thought that Macron would move so quickly to secure a prestigious sporting event in Paris?
Please spit more venom in your posts. Most unherdlike to be so restrained.
Hahahaha! You utter hypocritical twat.
If it had been Boris securing the Champions league final you would have been on spouting your usual crap against the English.
Mr. Dickson, do you think Scottish nationalism, which would've separated Scotland from both the UK and EU, would also have been a 'triumph for Putin'?
I suspect that Putin would encourage Sindy too, as he did with Brexit. A major theme of his foreign policy is to foment internal division in Western countries. Hence his troll farms being anti-woke too.
It doesn't invalidate the legitimacy of the issue, whether Brexit or Sindy, or BLM, but we should be aware of Putin's manipulations, and decide issues on their own merits.
Putin also foments Wokeness, on the Woke side. Of course you fastidiously pretend otherwise
Heck, Putin probably has a Reasonable Centrist Dad department in one of his troll farms. Sowing as many divisions as possible is what he does.
He knows there will be no united or effective responsive to his invasion from the west and sadly he will be proved right. The fact we are talking about moving the Champions League final from St Petersburg as if this will strike a terrible blow to Russia indicates the paucity of the response.
There has been a united effective response. Everyone is united in wanting to make life miserable for the Russian elite for the next few years. This is the only sustainable solution albeit less quick and emotionally satisfying that firing a gun. Everyone is also united in not wanting a war with a nuclear superpower (except Ben Wallace).
Ummm, Ben Wallace was in a joint interview on R4 this morning with a Ukrainian parliamentarian where he was saying precisely that he does not want NATO troops or no fly zone in Ukraine because he does not want it to escalate into a major war with Russia.
Boris would have wanted paid to take the final, trumped by Macron yet again.
Mr. Punter, one of the few things I know of the Tsars is that Nicholas II was hamstrung by his father deliberately not teaching him how to rule until he was older. Except his father died sooner than he anticipated...
Pretty common occurrence, even by otherwise great rulers.
its a depressing fact of modern life and media that we have short attention spans - This forum was full of ideas and angst when the Taleban captured Afghanistan - now nobody gives it a moments thought (even on here) and its what only a few months since that ?.Ukraine will go the same way . Life and politics moves on very quickly in the 21st century
Sorry, I didn't make it past "modern life". I hope the rest of the post was good though.
That's the second post of yours that's made LOL. The first was comparing a picture of Boris to a Zika baby.
Lavrov is just as bonkers as Putin. Ranting on about banning English in countries such as Ireland and what the western reaction would be, ranting about Anglo Saxons, Ukrainian government are Nazis..
Struggling hard to justify the invasion
LOL. A relation of Mons. Macron?
French set to replace English as EU’s ‘working language’ Notes, minutes, letters and meetings will be ‘French-first’ when France takes over European Council’s presidency In an article for Le Figaro, they said the use of French in Brussels “had diminished to the benefit of English, and more often to Globish – that ersatz of the English language, which narrows the scope of one’s thoughts, and restricts one’s ability to express him or herself”.
"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard
Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade
I cannot hate the Russian people, they are victims in this as well
We must concentrate all our energy to rid the world of Putin and his acolytes
When did Russia ever have even half-decent Government?
You'd have to be going back to the Tsars and my knowledge of them is very thin.
Aren't the Czars which are held in high regard the military expansionist ones - Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Catherine the Great ?
Latvian Minister of Defence and Deputy Prime Minister on the BBC just now furious with Germany, Italy and others over swift and effectively saying only the UK - US and the Baltic States are providing real help to Ukraine
I genuinely don’t understand this mad Republican admiration for Putin and his deeds
Yes I think Putin is right on Wokeness, I also think Mussolini handled the Mafia well and Hitler was great at flag design. I can still see that they are all malign tyrants who generally do - or did - bad stuff.
Farage is the same. And Salmond. Some weird fanboi worship of brutal power. Is that it? Is that all it is?
Putin pretends to be a Christian, is fervently nationalistic and hates gays. That's enough.
Yes, as with Trump, many people don't really follow the details - they decide on superficial evidence if someone is their sort of guy and then dismiss criticism as biased or made-up. It's like left-wingers who thought Pol Pot was a good guy until the Vietnamese - hardly right-wingers themselves - decided they'd had enough of him. And right-wingers who deplored Vietnam's intervention because they were those commies who'd caused so much trouble for the US. See Alastair's piece for more on this sort of thinking.
Most people are more or less rational, and there does come a point where they do say hell, I can't support THIS. Most of the left is now vehemently anti-Putin - all the MPs who signed the equivocal Stop the War statement have now withdrawn their support, and McDonnell said last night that he's helping organise a demo outside the Russian Embassy tomorrow. Conversely, I know Republicans who remain viscerally anti-Democrat but simply will not tolerate the idea of voting for Trump.
The extreme left in the Labour party who have supported STW and signed up to all their letters and petitions have for years agitated on the basis that almost everything aggressive about Russia is the fault of the USA, NATO and the UK.
Such as this on 22 Feb - three days ago
This dispute could and should be resolved peacefully, and that remains the only basis for a lasting settlement, rather than the imposition of military solutions. That it has not been resolved is not, however, the responsibility of the Russian or Ukrainian governments alone.
The conflict is the product of thirty years of failed policies, including the expansion of NATO and US hegemony at the expense of other countries as well as major wars of aggression by the USA, Britain and other NATO powers which have undermined international law and the United Nations.
The tragedy is that there are elements here that definitely have some basis, but they can't see the present imperative. The West definitely made errors that were not just defensive but also offensive, but Putin has been off on a course after that which was possibly unrecoverable for as much as 15 years now. Farage also doesn't know what he's talking about in mentioning 2014.
No, in the light of this week's events it is very clear that the likes of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland were justified in seeking the benefit of collective security within NATO membership, and NATO was right to extend their security guarantee accordingly, because had they not those states would clearly be next on Putin's list. Just as they were on Stalin's list when they were last invaded by Russia in 1939/40. It is not about Western "hegemony", it is about giving democratic states the right to peacefully exist through agreements that guarantee their security against a hostile expansionist dictatorship.
its a depressing fact of modern life and media that we have short attention spans - This forum was full of ideas and angst when the Taleban captured Afghanistan - now nobody gives it a moments thought (even on here) and its what only a few months since that ?.Ukraine will go the same way . Life and politics moves on very quickly in the 21st century
Depressingly, short of a nuclear exchange, you’re probably right. However it’s good to see that the excitable types who were calling Kabul a second Saigon and the Taliban the new Khmer Rouge have learned their lesson and are now dialling it down.
"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard
Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade
I think we can legitimately hold the Russian people responsible for the action of their leaders. I don't see any reason to let them off the hook so easily.
No, Russia is not a democracy, and it is unlikely that Putin would be in power now if it was. He does not have widespread popular support in Russia for his actions. I think we can only legitimately hold Russian people with wealth and power responsible for the action of their leaders. I do not think that we can hold responsible those brave Russians who are protesting today at the actions of their regime.
I understand, and I certainly don't have anything but goodwill towards the Russian people. Nonetheless I still think that we should look to make life hard for all of them. (I admit the parallels with Iran, for example, isn't encouraging)
It would be hard to find a government and nation more structurally, intellectually and temperamentally suited to bypassing sanctions than Russia. Just about anybody in a position of any power is a scheming criminal to start with.
Yes. That's why the pressure had to be broad-based. That criminal wealth spreads a long way.
Everything has to be done to encourage the Russians to undo this.
(And possibly pretty foolish. I can't prove it, but I suspect that tendrils of the government employ a lot of the lower-paid graduates.)
You don't start to repay until earning over £25k and continue repayments into your 50s now as that is the age of highest earning
I think it looks pretty reasonable (the new changes ) .My suspicion on Higher Education though is not the financing bu the quality of teaching and VFM for tuition fees - Covid seems to have given universities an excuse to degrade the quality without reducing fees
"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard
Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade
I cannot hate the Russian people, they are victims in this as well
We must concentrate all our energy to rid the world of Putin and his acolytes
When did Russia ever have even half-decent Government?
You'd have to be going back to the Tsars and my knowledge of them is very thin.
Aren't the Czars which are held in high regard the military expansionist ones - Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Catherine the Great ?
You could add Elizabeth, I suppose, who is better remembered for her education reforms.
But generally the Tsars were a pretty rubbish bunch. Nicholas II is one of those were historians, trying to find a positive, can only think of one - 'good husband.'
Not been following today's news but if I understand right that Germany and Italy are blocking Russia's expulsion from SWIFT then that is an utter disgrace.
They've sold their souls for Russian gas it seems and need to get it back Swiftly.
"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard
Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade
I cannot hate the Russian people, they are victims in this as well
We must concentrate all our energy to rid the world of Putin and his acolytes
When did Russia ever have even half-decent Government?
You'd have to be going back to the Tsars and my knowledge of them is very thin.
Most of them were pretty shit as well. About the only ones who were half decent were Alexander II, Catherine II and Peter the Great - and the last two were a right nasty pair who just happened to be competent rulers. Alexander II, meanwhile, tried his best but was a bit of a muppet. Unforgettably, he was assassinated when he shouted out loud that he was fine and perfectly safe following the first attempt, causing the assassin to throw a second bomb which worked.
Yes. Alex II and Gorbachev are probably the only two who were compus mentis and at least trying to do well.
"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard
Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade
I cannot hate the Russian people, they are victims in this as well
We must concentrate all our energy to rid the world of Putin and his acolytes
When did Russia ever have even half-decent Government?
You'd have to be going back to the Tsars and my knowledge of them is very thin.
Aren't the Czars which are held in high regard the military expansionist ones - Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Catherine the Great ?
Most effective rulers seem to have been bastards, though not all bastards were effective. Without being so you might lose all authority.
I genuinely don’t understand this mad Republican admiration for Putin and his deeds
Yes I think Putin is right on Wokeness, I also think Mussolini handled the Mafia well and Hitler was great at flag design. I can still see that they are all malign tyrants who generally do - or did - bad stuff.
Farage is the same. And Salmond. Some weird fanboi worship of brutal power. Is that it? Is that all it is?
Putin pretends to be a Christian, is fervently nationalistic and hates gays. That's enough.
Yes, as with Trump, many people don't really follow the details - they decide on superficial evidence if someone is their sort of guy and then dismiss criticism as biased or made-up. It's like left-wingers who thought Pol Pot was a good guy until the Vietnamese - hardly right-wingers themselves - decided they'd had enough of him. And right-wingers who deplored Vietnam's intervention because they were those commies who'd caused so much trouble for the US. See Alastair's piece for more on this sort of thinking.
Most people are more or less rational, and there does come a point where they do say hell, I can't support THIS. Most of the left is now vehemently anti-Putin - all the MPs who signed the equivocal Stop the War statement have now withdrawn their support, and McDonnell said last night that he's helping organise a demo outside the Russian Embassy tomorrow. Conversely, I know Republicans who remain viscerally anti-Democrat but simply will not tolerate the idea of voting for Trump.
The extreme left in the Labour party who have supported STW and signed up to all their letters and petitions have for years agitated on the basis that almost everything aggressive about Russia is the fault of the USA, NATO and the UK.
Such as this on 22 Feb - three days ago
This dispute could and should be resolved peacefully, and that remains the only basis for a lasting settlement, rather than the imposition of military solutions. That it has not been resolved is not, however, the responsibility of the Russian or Ukrainian governments alone.
The conflict is the product of thirty years of failed policies, including the expansion of NATO and US hegemony at the expense of other countries as well as major wars of aggression by the USA, Britain and other NATO powers which have undermined international law and the United Nations.
The tragedy is that there are elements here that definitely have some basis, but they can't see the present imperative. The West definitely made errors that were not just defensive but also offensive, but Putin has been off on a course after that which was possibly unrecoverable for as much as 15 years now. Farage also doesn't know what he's talking about in mentioning 2014.
I think that is fair. The causes of the Second World War were set in the Treaty of Versailles, though it needed a Hitler to set Europe on fire.
The causes of this conflict go back to the West's response to the fall of the Soviet Union, though it needed a Putin to set Ukraine on fire.
Yes. The West made a series of dreadful errors in the years following the fall of the Wall.
Sorry, just replied to an earlier message of yours and it came across as rude and hostile when was supposed to be more joshing. My apologies.
No worries. Rude and hostile tends to be a default around here. I’m sure we’re all lovely people in real life. Except Sean.
Not sure why the markets have rebounded a little this morning.
It's looking like it's going to be a short war.
Hold on didn't the Ukrainians retake the key airfield or some such ?
Who the fuck knows what's going on. The Ukranians are completely overmatched in every way though and getting fuck all help of any worth.
Well, clearly you do as that seems a very succinct summary of the situation.
Ultimately, the whole Western strategy on Ukraine was to stop the Russian invasion happening by making it impossible for them to claim a casus belli. Which might have worked insofar as Putin isn't invading because of Ukraine's actions, but to demonstrate he can. But it hasn't stopped the invasion and short of a dramatic collapse in the Russian army there isn't much hope that Ukraine can repel it.
I genuinely don’t understand this mad Republican admiration for Putin and his deeds
Yes I think Putin is right on Wokeness, I also think Mussolini handled the Mafia well and Hitler was great at flag design. I can still see that they are all malign tyrants who generally do - or did - bad stuff.
Farage is the same. And Salmond. Some weird fanboi worship of brutal power. Is that it? Is that all it is?
Putin pretends to be a Christian, is fervently nationalistic and hates gays. That's enough.
Yes, as with Trump, many people don't really follow the details - they decide on superficial evidence if someone is their sort of guy and then dismiss criticism as biased or made-up. It's like left-wingers who thought Pol Pot was a good guy until the Vietnamese - hardly right-wingers themselves - decided they'd had enough of him. And right-wingers who deplored Vietnam's intervention because they were those commies who'd caused so much trouble for the US. See Alastair's piece for more on this sort of thinking.
Most people are more or less rational, and there does come a point where they do say hell, I can't support THIS. Most of the left is now vehemently anti-Putin - all the MPs who signed the equivocal Stop the War statement have now withdrawn their support, and McDonnell said last night that he's helping organise a demo outside the Russian Embassy tomorrow. Conversely, I know Republicans who remain viscerally anti-Democrat but simply will not tolerate the idea of voting for Trump.
The extreme left in the Labour party who have supported STW and signed up to all their letters and petitions have for years agitated on the basis that almost everything aggressive about Russia is the fault of the USA, NATO and the UK.
Such as this on 22 Feb - three days ago
This dispute could and should be resolved peacefully, and that remains the only basis for a lasting settlement, rather than the imposition of military solutions. That it has not been resolved is not, however, the responsibility of the Russian or Ukrainian governments alone.
The conflict is the product of thirty years of failed policies, including the expansion of NATO and US hegemony at the expense of other countries as well as major wars of aggression by the USA, Britain and other NATO powers which have undermined international law and the United Nations.
The tragedy is that there are elements here that definitely have some basis, but they can't see the present imperative. The West definitely made errors that were not just defensive but also offensive, but Putin has been off on a course after that which was possibly unrecoverable for as much as 15 years now. Farage also doesn't know what he's talking about in mentioning 2014.
I think that is fair. The causes of the Second World War were set in the Treaty of Versailles, though it needed a Hitler to set Europe on fire.
The causes of this conflict go back to the West's response to the fall of the Soviet Union, though it needed a Putin to set Ukraine on fire.
Yes. The West made a series of dreadful errors in the years following the fall of the Wall.
Too busy high fiving and filling our boots with lucre to make any other plans.
I genuinely don’t understand this mad Republican admiration for Putin and his deeds
Yes I think Putin is right on Wokeness, I also think Mussolini handled the Mafia well and Hitler was great at flag design. I can still see that they are all malign tyrants who generally do - or did - bad stuff.
Farage is the same. And Salmond. Some weird fanboi worship of brutal power. Is that it? Is that all it is?
Putin pretends to be a Christian, is fervently nationalistic and hates gays. That's enough.
Yes, as with Trump, many people don't really follow the details - they decide on superficial evidence if someone is their sort of guy and then dismiss criticism as biased or made-up. It's like left-wingers who thought Pol Pot was a good guy until the Vietnamese - hardly right-wingers themselves - decided they'd had enough of him. And right-wingers who deplored Vietnam's intervention because they were those commies who'd caused so much trouble for the US. See Alastair's piece for more on this sort of thinking.
Most people are more or less rational, and there does come a point where they do say hell, I can't support THIS. Most of the left is now vehemently anti-Putin - all the MPs who signed the equivocal Stop the War statement have now withdrawn their support, and McDonnell said last night that he's helping organise a demo outside the Russian Embassy tomorrow. Conversely, I know Republicans who remain viscerally anti-Democrat but simply will not tolerate the idea of voting for Trump.
The extreme left in the Labour party who have supported STW and signed up to all their letters and petitions have for years agitated on the basis that almost everything aggressive about Russia is the fault of the USA, NATO and the UK.
Such as this on 22 Feb - three days ago
This dispute could and should be resolved peacefully, and that remains the only basis for a lasting settlement, rather than the imposition of military solutions. That it has not been resolved is not, however, the responsibility of the Russian or Ukrainian governments alone.
The conflict is the product of thirty years of failed policies, including the expansion of NATO and US hegemony at the expense of other countries as well as major wars of aggression by the USA, Britain and other NATO powers which have undermined international law and the United Nations.
The tragedy is that there are elements here that definitely have some basis, but they can't see the present imperative. The West definitely made errors that were not just defensive but also offensive, but Putin has been off on a course after that which was possibly unrecoverable for as much as 15 years now. Farage also doesn't know what he's talking about in mentioning 2014.
No, in the light of this week's events it is very clear that the likes of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland were justified in seeking the benefit of collective security within NATO membership, and NATO was right to extend their security guarantee accordingly, because had they not those states would clearly be next on Putin's list. Just as they were on Stalin's list when they were last invaded by Russia in 1939/40. It is not about Western "hegemony", it is about giving democratic states the right to peacefully exist through agreements that guarantee their security against a hostile expansionist dictatorship.
We hear repeatedly that Russia is 'entitled' to its security demands being met but the same people don't seem interested in how that might affect the security of Russia's neighbours.
Its bizarre.
Consider which is the most likely:
Russia attacking Finland or Finland attacking Russia. Russia attacking Estonia or Estonia attacking Russia. Russia attacking Latvia or Latvia attacking Russia.
"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard...
"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard
Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade
I cannot hate the Russian people, they are victims in this as well
We must concentrate all our energy to rid the world of Putin and his acolytes
When did Russia ever have even half-decent Government?
You'd have to be going back to the Tsars and my knowledge of them is very thin.
Aren't the Czars which are held in high regard the military expansionist ones - Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Catherine the Great ?
Most effective rulers seem to have been bastards, though not all bastards were effective. Without being so you might lose all authority.
Henry VI. Lovely man. Devoted to his people. Opposed to torture and execution. Tried to avoid heavy taxes. Notable for not fighting many wars (and losing both the ones he did).
Comments
He was also the author of one of three letters Stalin kept by him at all times, presumably because he was amused by it. The gist ran:
'Joe, stop sending those assassins of yours. They're useless fuckers and I'm getting bored of shooting them after they've cocked up. If you keep doing it, I'll send one of my teams to deal with you, and I won't need to send another.'
https://www.dw.com/en/german-arms-exports-hit-new-record-during-merkels-last-days/a-60256034
And why do you think I'm a Tory ?
Doesn't say to where, though.
I find those on the Right more concerning, because their Putin worship seems to be more genuine. They genuinely admire his strong man posturing, his muscular defence of Christian Europe, his attacks on Western decadence, Wokeness and the like. As though it is not precisely that mindset that has led him to this hideous, murderous assault on Ukraine.
I hope that this grotesque admiration of this brutal, limited man and his toxic ideology will be the first casualty of this war.
Oh yes, and that the UCI immediately suspends all Russian racers from the spring classics and grand tours. Fuck em.
And a nice little program of expelling anyone guilt of being a bit Italian from Yugoslavia - ethnic cleansing. Tidying up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rijeka etc.....
As for political enemies that I will admit I don't know.
My MP has facebook posted about a 1% council tax rise and 3% adult social care precept increase. But the BBC describes it as a 4% increase.
Now the district, fire, police and parish still needs to be added on (298.54, 101.38, 224.25, 83.03 at last count) but those are two completely different numbers.
From my last bill...
(1749.26- 182.89) + 1% = 1582.03
182.89 + 3% = 188.38
----------
1582.03 + 188.38 = 1770.41 (Band E) <- Calc according to MP graphic
1749.26 * 1.04 = 1819.23 (Band E) <- Calc according to BBC
In Ukraine, a Russian tank had driven over the civilian car. Terrifying footage. My thoughts are with the people of Ukraine.
https://twitter.com/franakviacorka/status/1497134141627850789
Further down the thread there's video of passers by trying to extricate the elderly man from what remained of his car.
It was also in 2008 that year that he released "learn Judo with Vladimir Putin." The cult of personality was underway.
Related though, the bit of the UEFA statement that amused me about the move of the final to Paris (probably could have waited until after this round and give it to a country with no teams potentially in the final)….
"Uefa wishes to express its thanks and appreciation to French Republic President Emmanuel Macron for his personal support and commitment to have European club football’s most prestigious game moved to France at a time of unparalleled crisis.”
Who would have thought that Macron would move so quickly to secure a prestigious sporting event in Paris?
How you going to find a neutral venue?
Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.
It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.
One of the truest things ever said
Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade
He knows there will be no united or effective responsive to his invasion from the west and sadly he will be proved right. The fact we are talking about moving the Champions League final from St Petersburg as if this will strike a terrible blow to Russia indicates the paucity of the response.
The response is unlikely to be any better next time particularly if Trump makes it back to the White House and Germany is still dependent on Russian energy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_FIFA_World_Cup_qualification_–_UEFA_Group_3
Dynamo Tbilisi were a very strong team at that time.
The causes of this conflict go back to the West's response to the fall of the Soviet Union, though it needed a Putin to set Ukraine on fire.
https://twitter.com/alexcrawfordsky/status/1497118565421527041?s=21
The Greater Russian Nationalists saw the Yugoslav Wars in terms of their ally Serbia, doing the tough work of keeping that part of the world for the Slavs.
The gradual pushing back of Serbia (and the broader Serb community) and the eventual defeat of the Greater Serbian Nationalists, was seen as yet another humiliation for Russia.
Its certainly an indictment of the GOP failings in government (and perhaps US society in general) pre Trump that it allowed such an opportunity for Trump.
We must concentrate all our energy to rid the world of Putin and his acolytes
The reality is that a lot of people on both left and right misread the nature of the Russian regime, sometimes people make mistakes and that is life. We can now all see it for what it is, and there are very few defenders of it today.
You'd have to be going back to the Tsars and my knowledge of them is very thin.
There were fair number of suspicious deaths/murders among the exiles, though.
If it had been Boris securing the Champions league final you would have been on spouting your usual crap against the English. Ummm, Ben Wallace was in a joint interview on R4 this morning with a Ukrainian parliamentarian where he was saying precisely that he does not want NATO troops or no fly zone in Ukraine because he does not want it to escalate into a major war with Russia.
https://edition.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/09/10/ar911.russia.putin/index.html
After that, he felt that he had got very little in return ,and that Iraq was a slap in the face not only to him but the existing global order. His point of view on that had some merit.
https://edition.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/09/10/ar911.russia.putin/index.html
Angry, disillusioned, bitter, encouraged by his Chechen hardmen to stamp down his authority, all these things seemed to have helped convince him to return to the old autocrat inside, and the longstanding Russian approach. Game over all the way back in 2008, or even 2007, I think.
Struggling hard to justify the invasion
https://twitter.com/TheIFS/status/1497124959440756737?s=20&t=OS6pr39W7ijBMzoBJ_yEYg
(And possibly pretty foolish. I can't prove it, but I suspect that tendrils of the government employ a lot of the lower-paid graduates.)
https://snyder.substack.com/p/a-few-ways-to-help-ukrainians?utm_source=url
But I doubt any rally will be sustained.
French set to replace English as EU’s ‘working language’
Notes, minutes, letters and meetings will be ‘French-first’ when France takes over European Council’s presidency
In an article for Le Figaro, they said the use of French in Brussels “had diminished to the benefit of English, and more often to Globish – that ersatz of the English language, which narrows the scope of one’s thoughts, and restricts one’s ability to express him or herself”.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brexit-france-eu-french-english-b1861087.html
However it’s good to see that the excitable types who were calling Kabul a second Saigon and the Taliban the new Khmer Rouge have learned their lesson and are now dialling it down.
Everything has to be done to encourage the Russians to undo this.
But generally the Tsars were a pretty rubbish bunch. Nicholas II is one of those were historians, trying to find a positive, can only think of one - 'good husband.'
Not been following today's news but if I understand right that Germany and Italy are blocking Russia's expulsion from SWIFT then that is an utter disgrace.
They've sold their souls for Russian gas it seems and need to get it back Swiftly.
Apologies if I've misunderstood.
Ultimately, the whole Western strategy on Ukraine was to stop the Russian invasion happening by making it impossible for them to claim a casus belli. Which might have worked insofar as Putin isn't invading because of Ukraine's actions, but to demonstrate he can. But it hasn't stopped the invasion and short of a dramatic collapse in the Russian army there isn't much hope that Ukraine can repel it.
However, there wasn't much at the time.
Its bizarre.
Consider which is the most likely:
Russia attacking Finland or Finland attacking Russia.
Russia attacking Estonia or Estonia attacking Russia.
Russia attacking Latvia or Latvia attacking Russia.
Ditto all the way down to Georgia.
Deposed and murdered by the age of 50.