Guving the PCP an ideal excuse in a time of conflict to only select one runner and stop the choice going to the membership. Question is do you trust PCP to make the right choice?
There are very few members of the PCP who would be a worse PM than BoZo so the odds are good
Johnson, Trump, Putin, Xi and Bolsonaro are on a plane together. The plane crashes. Who is saved?
The rest of us...
Reminds me of a joke.
"Trump and Putin die in the same plane crash and go to hell. The devil greets them and says to help them settle in he'll give them one wish.
Trump asks if he can carry on speaking to his underlings in the Trump organisation. The devil says sure and points to a pay phone in the corner. "You can use that but it'll cost you £100 a minute ".
Putin asks is he can carry on speaking to his secret service in Russia. The devil points to the pay phone and says calls will be 10p a minute. "Why so cheap" asks Putin. The devil smiles and says "Because it's a local call".
Come off it. He would be dropping the nukes on Kiev himself.
What an unbelievably childish and stupid comment from EPG. Straight out of the sixth form debating society playbook that has led us to where we are.
Indeed.
Trump would be telling the Ukrainians he'd get involved, so long as they dig up dirt on his political opponents for him.
German policy over the last decade is turning into a total and complete catastrophe. Trump, arrogant and insensitive as he is, saw that, and tried to warn them in the excerpt HYUFD quoted.
Oh but its all Trump's fault, right? delusional.
I specifically attacked Germany and Italy before for selling their souls and was inanely accused of anti European prejudice by Kinabalu and now you think I delusionally believe it's all about Trump.
How about no. Germany's policies for years have been an utter disaster. So was Trump. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Germany "selling their soul" for Russian gas. This is the sort of thing I mean. Not just you but tons of people expressing themselves like this.
I watched a doc the other day about the StalinRussia/NaziGermany conflict - the dense black core of WW2 militarily if anything can be described that way. It wasn't that long ago, really, and this terrible history (between those nations) weighs heavy. In Germany there is great guilt and sensitivity about it.
So, ok, Germany seeking to normalize relations with Russia, be friends, trading actively with them, the energy arrangements, all of this now stands revealed as a serious geopolitical mistake - but "selling their soul"? C'mon.
Yes selling their soul.
Trading with friendly allies is one thing, but Russia is not a friendly ally. So why is Germany refusing to expel them from SWIFT?
The French tried diplomacy too, but once Russia invaded they said that they'd been lied to and that action now needed to be taken. Credit to Macron for that.
But Germany is blocking sanctions. That's not to "normalise" relations, there's nothing "normal" about one European nation invading a European democracy.
There is no excuse to blocking the sanctions, except that they've sold their souls because of the gas. Sanctions should hurt yourself as well as the other party - even Sir Keir Starmer said that, credit where it's due - but two nations are refusing to do so.
If not because they've sold their souls for gas, then why?
They have bought the gas, using money, to heat and light their houses. Souls form no part of the transaction.
Unless Russian gas is made from Dead Souls?!
I listened to some of that on r4 a year or two ago and keep meaning to read it
Ha, me too! I think Palin was the narrator, I always enjoy the tone of his voice.
R4 dramatisations of 'great' literature can be a bit iffy, the recent Berlin Alexanderplatz being a case in point.
Come off it. He would be dropping the nukes on Kiev himself.
What an unbelievably childish and stupid comment from EPG. Straight out of the sixth form debating society playbook that has led us to where we are.
Indeed.
Trump would be telling the Ukrainians he'd get involved, so long as they dig up dirt on his political opponents for him.
German policy over the last decade is turning into a total and complete catastrophe. Trump, arrogant and insensitive as he is, saw that, and tried to warn them in the excerpt HYUFD quoted.
Oh but its all Trump's fault, right? delusional.
I specifically attacked Germany and Italy before for selling their souls and was inanely accused of anti European prejudice by Kinabalu and now you think I delusionally believe it's all about Trump.
How about no. Germany's policies for years have been an utter disaster. So was Trump. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Germany "selling their soul" for Russian gas. This is the sort of thing I mean. Not just you but tons of people expressing themselves like this.
I watched a doc the other day about the StalinRussia/NaziGermany conflict - the dense black core of WW2 militarily if anything can be described that way. It wasn't that long ago, really, and this terrible history (between those nations) weighs heavy. In Germany there is great guilt and sensitivity about it.
So, ok, Germany seeking to normalize relations with Russia, be friends, trading actively with them, the energy arrangements, all of this now stands revealed as a serious geopolitical mistake - but "selling their soul"? C'mon.
Yes selling their soul.
Trading with friendly allies is one thing, but Russia is not a friendly ally. So why is Germany refusing to expel them from SWIFT?
The French tried diplomacy too, but once Russia invaded they said that they'd been lied to and that action now needed to be taken. Credit to Macron for that.
But Germany is blocking sanctions. That's not to "normalise" relations, there's nothing "normal" about one European nation invading a European democracy.
There is no excuse to blocking the sanctions, except that they've sold their souls because of the gas. Sanctions should hurt yourself as well as the other party - even Sir Keir Starmer said that, credit where it's due - but two nations are refusing to do so.
If not because they've sold their souls for gas, then why?
I'm not defending Germany's stance right now on sanctions. I'm giving some context on why Germany has, since the fall of the USSR and their reunification, been especially motivated to have a positive relationship with Russia. If you want to view these efforts as "selling their soul", so be it, but for me it's a shallow and jaundiced take.
No I am not viewing past efforts as "selling their soul".
I am saying their current stance is because they've sold their soul. The objection isn't to what they've done in the past, its to what they are [not] doing today.
Can't you understand that?
So the gas/money transaction becomes a gas/souls transaction retrospectively, spooky backwards in time kinda thing?
I watched Looper yesterday. Meh, the Willis character is too much of a shit and the plot is too Terminator. Also can't decide if the spooky little boy is also the other two.
I quite liked the concept, but thought it was pretty badly done. The only decent bit was the 'final confrontation' scene.
The Russians have yet to make the decisive breakthrough in Ukraine. They will do so eventually, but despite overwhelming numbers they seem to be making heavy weather of it. I wonder if military leaders would countenance an attack on a NATO member state, even if Putin wanted it to happen.
I don’t think Putin is seriously considering an attack on NATO. At the moment, anyway.
There’s a reason he’s chosen Ukraine. He wants to reunite “all the Russias” (if not as part of Russia as some form of sphere of influence or possibly confederation) and make it clear NATO is not expanding any further. Other ex-Soviet states may also be on the list. The Baltics are the point he’d strike at if he was really keen on testing NATO, but that’s a very different proposition than an invasion of Ukraine - they are EU and NATO members.
I don’t think he is so unhinged as to go there right now. The danger zone will be in a few years time, depending on what happens in Ukraine and how the world reacts.
The Russians have yet to make the decisive breakthrough in Ukraine. They will do so eventually, but despite overwhelming numbers they seem to be making heavy weather of it. I wonder if military leaders would countenance an attack on a NATO member state, even if Putin wanted it to happen.
Come off it. He would be dropping the nukes on Kiev himself.
What an unbelievably childish and stupid comment from EPG. Straight out of the sixth form debating society playbook that has led us to where we are.
Indeed.
Trump would be telling the Ukrainians he'd get involved, so long as they dig up dirt on his political opponents for him.
German policy over the last decade is turning into a total and complete catastrophe. Trump, arrogant and insensitive as he is, saw that, and tried to warn them in the excerpt HYUFD quoted.
Oh but its all Trump's fault, right? delusional.
I specifically attacked Germany and Italy before for selling their souls and was inanely accused of anti European prejudice by Kinabalu and now you think I delusionally believe it's all about Trump.
How about no. Germany's policies for years have been an utter disaster. So was Trump. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Germany "selling their soul" for Russian gas. This is the sort of thing I mean. Not just you but tons of people expressing themselves like this.
I watched a doc the other day about the StalinRussia/NaziGermany conflict - the dense black core of WW2 militarily if anything can be described that way. It wasn't that long ago, really, and this terrible history (between those nations) weighs heavy. In Germany there is great guilt and sensitivity about it.
So, ok, Germany seeking to normalize relations with Russia, be friends, trading actively with them, the energy arrangements, all of this now stands revealed as a serious geopolitical mistake - but "selling their soul"? C'mon.
If it gets to the point where your financial reliance or commitments prevent you from doing what is morally right - either as a country or an individual then in my view you have indeed sold your soul.
They are highly exposed to the impact of certain sanctions and it's holding them back from doing everything we'd like to see (although they are doing some things). But "sold their soul" rhetoric would only be fair if their motives for getting themselves into such a position were naked self-interest and I don't believe this was the case. They've made a mistake - is how I view it.
The Russians have yet to make the decisive breakthrough in Ukraine. They will do so eventually, but despite overwhelming numbers they seem to be making heavy weather of it. I wonder if military leaders would countenance an attack on a NATO member state, even if Putin wanted it to happen.
'I Don't Know Why He's There': Russian Mothers Say Soldiers Tricked Into Going to Ukraine Russian law prohibits conscripts from being sent to the front unless they choose to sign a contract and become career soldiers. But in Ukraine, 'there are a lot of draftees. None of them signed up'
I thought everybody thought conscripts were a useless pita in a shooting war anyway? Why are they even there Is it possible that Putin had Sadaam's problem, that his army is shit and nobody wants to tell him?
Conscripts just created casualties in Chechnya. The problem is that trained professional soldiers are very expensive. Much easier to play games with the definition of conscripts and steal the money.
A chuck of the Russian army is very effective - their artillery, for example. How big the useful bit is, compared to the mass of conscripts is hard to say.
In other news, I read that Sunak has also been sent a questionnaire by the Met.
It was on the front of the telegraph, I flagged it up last night.
Do you think it’s true, those who can afford a good lawyer can fill this in and get off with it? Surely the police will get to the truth, no matter how clever a lawyer, there only so much they can do answering this form for you to hide the truth?
I expect the ask will be for formal recognition by Ukraine of the Luhansk and Donbass republics (And thus ceeding territory) and a constitutional amendment that Ukraine will never join NATO.
Johnson, Trump, Putin, Xi and Bolsonaro are on a plane together. The plane crashes. Who is saved?
The rest of us...
Reminds me of a joke.
"Trump and Putin die in the same plane crash and go to hell. The devil greets them and says to help them settle in he'll give them one wish.
Trump asks if he can carry on speaking to his underlings in the Trump organisation. The devil says sure and points to a pay phone in the corner. "You can use that but it'll cost you £100 a minute ".
Putin asks is he can carry on speaking to his secret service in Russia. The devil points to the pay phone and says calls will be 10p a minute. "Why so cheap" asks Putin. The devil smiles and says "Because it's a local call".
That would actually work even better the other way around.
Come off it. He would be dropping the nukes on Kiev himself.
What an unbelievably childish and stupid comment from EPG. Straight out of the sixth form debating society playbook that has led us to where we are.
Indeed.
Trump would be telling the Ukrainians he'd get involved, so long as they dig up dirt on his political opponents for him.
German policy over the last decade is turning into a total and complete catastrophe. Trump, arrogant and insensitive as he is, saw that, and tried to warn them in the excerpt HYUFD quoted.
Oh but its all Trump's fault, right? delusional.
I specifically attacked Germany and Italy before for selling their souls and was inanely accused of anti European prejudice by Kinabalu and now you think I delusionally believe it's all about Trump.
How about no. Germany's policies for years have been an utter disaster. So was Trump. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Germany "selling their soul" for Russian gas. This is the sort of thing I mean. Not just you but tons of people expressing themselves like this.
I watched a doc the other day about the StalinRussia/NaziGermany conflict - the dense black core of WW2 militarily if anything can be described that way. It wasn't that long ago, really, and this terrible history (between those nations) weighs heavy. In Germany there is great guilt and sensitivity about it.
So, ok, Germany seeking to normalize relations with Russia, be friends, trading actively with them, the energy arrangements, all of this now stands revealed as a serious geopolitical mistake - but "selling their soul"? C'mon.
Yes selling their soul.
Trading with friendly allies is one thing, but Russia is not a friendly ally. So why is Germany refusing to expel them from SWIFT?
The French tried diplomacy too, but once Russia invaded they said that they'd been lied to and that action now needed to be taken. Credit to Macron for that.
But Germany is blocking sanctions. That's not to "normalise" relations, there's nothing "normal" about one European nation invading a European democracy.
There is no excuse to blocking the sanctions, except that they've sold their souls because of the gas. Sanctions should hurt yourself as well as the other party - even Sir Keir Starmer said that, credit where it's due - but two nations are refusing to do so.
If not because they've sold their souls for gas, then why?
I'm not defending Germany's stance right now on sanctions. I'm giving some context on why Germany has, since the fall of the USSR and their reunification, been especially motivated to have a positive relationship with Russia. If you want to view these efforts as "selling their soul", so be it, but for me it's a shallow and jaundiced take.
No I am not viewing past efforts as "selling their soul".
I am saying their current stance is because they've sold their soul. The objection isn't to what they've done in the past, its to what they are [not] doing today.
Can't you understand that?
Has any Western country so far imposed sanctions on the Russians that will cause it any meaningful pain? If we are asking the Germans to do that, shouldn't we be prepared to do it, too?
EU member states including the Baltic are asking Germany, who are refusing and coming under a lot of pressure from within the EU and from Ukraine
Lavrov says Zelensky had been trying to expel Russian speakers from Ukraine. Compares it to what would have been the reaction if the Republic of Ireland had tried to expel English speakers or if Belgium had tried to expel French speakers.
I expect the ask will be for formal recognition by Ukraine of the Luhansk and Donbass republics (And thus ceeding territory) and a constitutional amendment that Ukraine will never join NATO.
To which the answer is “withdraw your troops and we can negotiate”
Come off it. He would be dropping the nukes on Kiev himself.
What an unbelievably childish and stupid comment from EPG. Straight out of the sixth form debating society playbook that has led us to where we are.
Indeed.
Trump would be telling the Ukrainians he'd get involved, so long as they dig up dirt on his political opponents for him.
German policy over the last decade is turning into a total and complete catastrophe. Trump, arrogant and insensitive as he is, saw that, and tried to warn them in the excerpt HYUFD quoted.
Oh but its all Trump's fault, right? delusional.
I specifically attacked Germany and Italy before for selling their souls and was inanely accused of anti European prejudice by Kinabalu and now you think I delusionally believe it's all about Trump.
How about no. Germany's policies for years have been an utter disaster. So was Trump. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Germany "selling their soul" for Russian gas. This is the sort of thing I mean. Not just you but tons of people expressing themselves like this.
I watched a doc the other day about the StalinRussia/NaziGermany conflict - the dense black core of WW2 militarily if anything can be described that way. It wasn't that long ago, really, and this terrible history (between those nations) weighs heavy. In Germany there is great guilt and sensitivity about it.
So, ok, Germany seeking to normalize relations with Russia, be friends, trading actively with them, the energy arrangements, all of this now stands revealed as a serious geopolitical mistake - but "selling their soul"? C'mon.
If it gets to the point where your financial reliance or commitments prevent you from doing what is morally right - either as a country or an individual then in my view you have indeed sold your soul.
They are highly exposed to the impact of certain sanctions and it's holding them back from doing everything we'd like to see (although they are doing some things). But "sold their soul" rhetoric would only be fair if their motives for getting themselves into such a position were naked self-interest and I don't believe this was the case. They've made a mistake - is how I view it.
I expect the ask will be for formal recognition by Ukraine of the Luhansk and Donbass republics (And thus ceeding territory) and a constitutional amendment that Ukraine will never join NATO.
To which the answer is “withdraw your troops and we can negotiate”
8.Russian morale is lower than expected. Some units appear to have anticipated being met with grateful Ukrainian crowds instead of stiff opposition. 8/
Lavrov says Zelensky had been trying to expel Russian speakers from Ukraine. Compares it to what would have been the reaction if the Republic of Ireland had tried to expel English speakers or if Belgium had tried to expel French speakers.
The irony being it is Putin who expelled the Russian speakers from Ukraine, when he forcibly evacuated them from Donetsk and Luhansk to clear the way for his army.
But Lavrov is so drunk and stupid he probably will never spot it.
Johnson, Trump, Putin, Xi and Bolsonaro are on a plane together. The plane crashes. Who is saved?
The rest of us...
Reminds me of a joke.
"Trump and Putin die in the same plane crash and go to hell. The devil greets them and says to help them settle in he'll give them one wish.
Trump asks if he can carry on speaking to his underlings in the Trump organisation. The devil says sure and points to a pay phone in the corner. "You can use that but it'll cost you £100 a minute ".
Putin asks is he can carry on speaking to his secret service in Russia. The devil points to the pay phone and says calls will be 10p a minute. "Why so cheap" asks Putin. The devil smiles and says "Because it's a local call".
I stopped reading after the first sentence, to end on a happy thought.
Come off it. He would be dropping the nukes on Kiev himself.
What an unbelievably childish and stupid comment from EPG. Straight out of the sixth form debating society playbook that has led us to where we are.
Indeed.
Trump would be telling the Ukrainians he'd get involved, so long as they dig up dirt on his political opponents for him.
German policy over the last decade is turning into a total and complete catastrophe. Trump, arrogant and insensitive as he is, saw that, and tried to warn them in the excerpt HYUFD quoted.
Oh but its all Trump's fault, right? delusional.
I specifically attacked Germany and Italy before for selling their souls and was inanely accused of anti European prejudice by Kinabalu and now you think I delusionally believe it's all about Trump.
How about no. Germany's policies for years have been an utter disaster. So was Trump. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Germany "selling their soul" for Russian gas. This is the sort of thing I mean. Not just you but tons of people expressing themselves like this.
I watched a doc the other day about the StalinRussia/NaziGermany conflict - the dense black core of WW2 militarily if anything can be described that way. It wasn't that long ago, really, and this terrible history (between those nations) weighs heavy. In Germany there is great guilt and sensitivity about it.
So, ok, Germany seeking to normalize relations with Russia, be friends, trading actively with them, the energy arrangements, all of this now stands revealed as a serious geopolitical mistake - but "selling their soul"? C'mon.
If it gets to the point where your financial reliance or commitments prevent you from doing what is morally right - either as a country or an individual then in my view you have indeed sold your soul.
They are highly exposed to the impact of certain sanctions and it's holding them back from doing everything we'd like to see (although they are doing some things). But "sold their soul" rhetoric would only be fair if their motives for getting themselves into such a position were naked self-interest and I don't believe this was the case. They've made a mistake - is how I view it.
Can't really subscribe to the notion of a whole country selling its soul in any case, eg I would resist the temptation to say the UK had sold its soul despite various governments crawling up the ass of the Saudis and pimping out state visits with Brenda to everyone from Putin to Trump.
The Russians have yet to make the decisive breakthrough in Ukraine. They will do so eventually, but despite overwhelming numbers they seem to be making heavy weather of it. I wonder if military leaders would countenance an attack on a NATO member state, even if Putin wanted it to happen.
'I Don't Know Why He's There': Russian Mothers Say Soldiers Tricked Into Going to Ukraine Russian law prohibits conscripts from being sent to the front unless they choose to sign a contract and become career soldiers. But in Ukraine, 'there are a lot of draftees. None of them signed up'
I thought everybody thought conscripts were a useless pita in a shooting war anyway? Why are they even there Is it possible that Putin had Sadaam's problem, that his army is shit and nobody wants to tell him?
Conscripts just created casualties in Chechnya. The problem is that trained professional soldiers are very expensive. Much easier to play games with the definition of conscripts and steal the money.
A chuck of the Russian army is very effective - their artillery, for example. How big the useful bit is, compared to the mass of conscripts is hard to say.
Interestinglyish, Max Hastings' view of the British army in WW2 is that despite pockets of excellence it was only the gunners who outperformed consistently
This is a media war. Memes and tiktoks of heroic defenders plus deserting conscripts plus protesting Russians are what will do for Putin. I am almost confident enough to call this as about peak Vlad.
Come off it. He would be dropping the nukes on Kiev himself.
What an unbelievably childish and stupid comment from EPG. Straight out of the sixth form debating society playbook that has led us to where we are.
Indeed.
Trump would be telling the Ukrainians he'd get involved, so long as they dig up dirt on his political opponents for him.
German policy over the last decade is turning into a total and complete catastrophe. Trump, arrogant and insensitive as he is, saw that, and tried to warn them in the excerpt HYUFD quoted.
Oh but its all Trump's fault, right? delusional.
I specifically attacked Germany and Italy before for selling their souls and was inanely accused of anti European prejudice by Kinabalu and now you think I delusionally believe it's all about Trump.
How about no. Germany's policies for years have been an utter disaster. So was Trump. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Germany "selling their soul" for Russian gas. This is the sort of thing I mean. Not just you but tons of people expressing themselves like this.
I watched a doc the other day about the StalinRussia/NaziGermany conflict - the dense black core of WW2 militarily if anything can be described that way. It wasn't that long ago, really, and this terrible history (between those nations) weighs heavy. In Germany there is great guilt and sensitivity about it.
So, ok, Germany seeking to normalize relations with Russia, be friends, trading actively with them, the energy arrangements, all of this now stands revealed as a serious geopolitical mistake - but "selling their soul"? C'mon.
Also, the idea that if only Germany hadn't allowed Nordstream 2 to be built Putin would have dropped his invasion plans seems a bit far-fetched.
In fact, imagining the counter factual where there was no attempt to engage Russia, probably the planned invasion would be happening just the same and we'd be hearing loads of people saying "this is all the fault of the Germans for refusing to engage with Russia so now they've got nothing to lose"
I think you are German, aren't you? So can I ask - how does "the nation's soul has been sold out for Russian gas" play with you? Is it a common view there too?
I'm interested because it's closing in on meme status for pundits over here. I think I've read or heard the phrase about 500 times just in the last couple of weeks.
8.Russian morale is lower than expected. Some units appear to have anticipated being met with grateful Ukrainian crowds instead of stiff opposition. 8/
Italian prime minister Mario Draghi successfully secured a carve out for Italian luxury goods from the EU's package of economic sanctions against Nato, EU dip tells me. 'Apparently selling Gucci loafers to oligarchs is more of a priority than hitting back at Putin,' source adds.
Reasons why i could never be a diplomat or politician no. 1325, from BBC
In a phone call on Friday, China's President Xi Jinping told Vladimir Putin that China supports Russia in efforts to resolve the Ukraine crisis via dialogue, Chinese state television CCTV reports.
Even if you are a brutal authoritarian I don't know how you can say something like that with a straight face. And why even bother? Even if you think Russia completely justified in its actions it has not been resolving matters through dialogue, and whispered surrunders after the shooting is not really the same thing.
Another example
And here's more now from Sergei Lavrov's news conference in Moscow.
He questions the stability of the Ukrainian state - and accuses Western nations of deliberately militarising the country.
Lavrov told reporters that Ukrainian people must now have the chance to "choose their own future".
I mean really, there's putting your country's position and then there's just taking the piss. Yes, the Ukrainian state is somewhat unstable at the moment, why is that I wonder?
Blatant lies, as has been noted many times, are a characteristic of authoritarian regimes. Lying with impunity demonstrates their power.
As always, Blair was there first.
"The past was erased, the erasure was forgotten, the lie became the truth"
My favourite is the old Soviet joke:
“The future is certain. It’s the past that keeps changing”.
Though in this case, Putin is trying to return to the past. The future remains sharply contested.
Come off it. He would be dropping the nukes on Kiev himself.
What an unbelievably childish and stupid comment from EPG. Straight out of the sixth form debating society playbook that has led us to where we are.
Indeed.
Trump would be telling the Ukrainians he'd get involved, so long as they dig up dirt on his political opponents for him.
German policy over the last decade is turning into a total and complete catastrophe. Trump, arrogant and insensitive as he is, saw that, and tried to warn them in the excerpt HYUFD quoted.
Oh but its all Trump's fault, right? delusional.
I specifically attacked Germany and Italy before for selling their souls and was inanely accused of anti European prejudice by Kinabalu and now you think I delusionally believe it's all about Trump.
How about no. Germany's policies for years have been an utter disaster. So was Trump. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Germany "selling their soul" for Russian gas. This is the sort of thing I mean. Not just you but tons of people expressing themselves like this.
I watched a doc the other day about the StalinRussia/NaziGermany conflict - the dense black core of WW2 militarily if anything can be described that way. It wasn't that long ago, really, and this terrible history (between those nations) weighs heavy. In Germany there is great guilt and sensitivity about it.
So, ok, Germany seeking to normalize relations with Russia, be friends, trading actively with them, the energy arrangements, all of this now stands revealed as a serious geopolitical mistake - but "selling their soul"? C'mon.
Yes selling their soul.
Trading with friendly allies is one thing, but Russia is not a friendly ally. So why is Germany refusing to expel them from SWIFT?
The French tried diplomacy too, but once Russia invaded they said that they'd been lied to and that action now needed to be taken. Credit to Macron for that.
But Germany is blocking sanctions. That's not to "normalise" relations, there's nothing "normal" about one European nation invading a European democracy.
There is no excuse to blocking the sanctions, except that they've sold their souls because of the gas. Sanctions should hurt yourself as well as the other party - even Sir Keir Starmer said that, credit where it's due - but two nations are refusing to do so.
If not because they've sold their souls for gas, then why?
I'm not defending Germany's stance right now on sanctions. I'm giving some context on why Germany has, since the fall of the USSR and their reunification, been especially motivated to have a positive relationship with Russia. If you want to view these efforts as "selling their soul", so be it, but for me it's a shallow and jaundiced take.
No I am not viewing past efforts as "selling their soul".
I am saying their current stance is because they've sold their soul. The objection isn't to what they've done in the past, its to what they are [not] doing today.
Can't you understand that?
So the gas/money transaction becomes a gas/souls transaction retrospectively, spooky backwards in time kinda thing?
I watched Looper yesterday. Meh, the Willis character is too much of a shit and the plot is too Terminator. Also can't decide if the spooky little boy is also the other two.
I quite liked the concept, but thought it was pretty badly done. The only decent bit was the 'final confrontation' scene.
In other news, I read that Sunak has also been sent a questionnaire by the Met.
It was on the front of the telegraph, I flagged it up last night.
Do you think it’s true, those who can afford a good lawyer can fill this in and get off with it? Surely the police will get to the truth, no matter how clever a lawyer, there only so much they can do answering this form for you to hide the truth?
There is no legal obligation to answer the questionnaire, especially if it is stated to be the equivalent of being questioned under caution.
If the police have evidence they can issue an FPN. But that could be challenged at which point I think it would go to court.
It depends what evidence the police have. Sending a questionnaire is an unusual way of investigating, IMO.
Italian prime minister Mario Draghi successfully secured a carve out for Italian luxury goods from the EU's package of economic sanctions against Nato, EU dip tells me. 'Apparently selling Gucci loafers to oligarchs is more of a priority than hitting back at Putin,' source adds.
Come off it. He would be dropping the nukes on Kiev himself.
What an unbelievably childish and stupid comment from EPG. Straight out of the sixth form debating society playbook that has led us to where we are.
Indeed.
Trump would be telling the Ukrainians he'd get involved, so long as they dig up dirt on his political opponents for him.
German policy over the last decade is turning into a total and complete catastrophe. Trump, arrogant and insensitive as he is, saw that, and tried to warn them in the excerpt HYUFD quoted.
Oh but its all Trump's fault, right? delusional.
I specifically attacked Germany and Italy before for selling their souls and was inanely accused of anti European prejudice by Kinabalu and now you think I delusionally believe it's all about Trump.
How about no. Germany's policies for years have been an utter disaster. So was Trump. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Germany "selling their soul" for Russian gas. This is the sort of thing I mean. Not just you but tons of people expressing themselves like this.
I watched a doc the other day about the StalinRussia/NaziGermany conflict - the dense black core of WW2 militarily if anything can be described that way. It wasn't that long ago, really, and this terrible history (between those nations) weighs heavy. In Germany there is great guilt and sensitivity about it.
So, ok, Germany seeking to normalize relations with Russia, be friends, trading actively with them, the energy arrangements, all of this now stands revealed as a serious geopolitical mistake - but "selling their soul"? C'mon.
If it gets to the point where your financial reliance or commitments prevent you from doing what is morally right - either as a country or an individual then in my view you have indeed sold your soul.
They are highly exposed to the impact of certain sanctions and it's holding them back from doing everything we'd like to see (although they are doing some things). But "sold their soul" rhetoric would only be fair if their motives for getting themselves into such a position were naked self-interest and I don't believe this was the case. They've made a mistake - is how I view it.
Italian prime minister Mario Draghi successfully secured a carve out for Italian luxury goods from the EU's package of economic sanctions against Nato, EU dip tells me. 'Apparently selling Gucci loafers to oligarchs is more of a priority than hitting back at Putin,' source adds.
“The EU is preparing to freeze the assets of Russia’s president Vladimir Putin and foreign minister Sergei Lavrov as part of a third round of sanctions against Russia, the Financial Times reports.”
Wow! Getting seriously tough on them now then. 🙄
Wasn’t this done years ago? How many times down the years can they keep announcing this?
Meanwhile, Zelenskiy latest address has said:
* UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT ACCUSES EUROPE OF INSUFFICIENT REACTION, SLOW HELP TO UKRAINE * UKRAINE’S ZELENSKIY SAYS RUSSIAN ASSAULT LIKE REPEAT OF WORLD WAR TWO UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT CALLS ON EUROPEAN CITIZENS TO PROTEST TO FORCE THEIR GOVERNMENTS TO MORE DECISIVELY
Come off it. He would be dropping the nukes on Kiev himself.
What an unbelievably childish and stupid comment from EPG. Straight out of the sixth form debating society playbook that has led us to where we are.
Indeed.
Trump would be telling the Ukrainians he'd get involved, so long as they dig up dirt on his political opponents for him.
German policy over the last decade is turning into a total and complete catastrophe. Trump, arrogant and insensitive as he is, saw that, and tried to warn them in the excerpt HYUFD quoted.
Oh but its all Trump's fault, right? delusional.
I specifically attacked Germany and Italy before for selling their souls and was inanely accused of anti European prejudice by Kinabalu and now you think I delusionally believe it's all about Trump.
How about no. Germany's policies for years have been an utter disaster. So was Trump. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Germany "selling their soul" for Russian gas. This is the sort of thing I mean. Not just you but tons of people expressing themselves like this.
I watched a doc the other day about the StalinRussia/NaziGermany conflict - the dense black core of WW2 militarily if anything can be described that way. It wasn't that long ago, really, and this terrible history (between those nations) weighs heavy. In Germany there is great guilt and sensitivity about it.
So, ok, Germany seeking to normalize relations with Russia, be friends, trading actively with them, the energy arrangements, all of this now stands revealed as a serious geopolitical mistake - but "selling their soul"? C'mon.
If it gets to the point where your financial reliance or commitments prevent you from doing what is morally right - either as a country or an individual then in my view you have indeed sold your soul.
They are highly exposed to the impact of certain sanctions and it's holding them back from doing everything we'd like to see (although they are doing some things). But "sold their soul" rhetoric would only be fair if their motives for getting themselves into such a position were naked self-interest and I don't believe this was the case. They've made a mistake - is how I view it.
In other news, I read that Sunak has also been sent a questionnaire by the Met.
It was on the front of the telegraph, I flagged it up last night.
Do you think it’s true, those who can afford a good lawyer can fill this in and get off with it? Surely the police will get to the truth, no matter how clever a lawyer, there only so much they can do answering this form for you to hide the truth?
There is no legal obligation to answer the questionnaire, especially if it is stated to be the equivalent of being questioned under caution.
If the police have evidence they can issue an FPN. But that could be challenged at which point I think it would go to court.
It depends what evidence the police have. Sending a questionnaire is an unusual way of investigating, IMO.
It's common in my world. I deal with similar requests by the HSE, CQC, and in one case, by a Local Authority under the Environmental Protection Act 1990.
If you do not answer the questions, that is effectively a no comment interview. As a result, the prosecuting authority may commence a prosecution on the strength of available evidence, rather than just an FPN.
Italian prime minister Mario Draghi successfully secured a carve out for Italian luxury goods from the EU's package of economic sanctions against Nato, EU dip tells me. 'Apparently selling Gucci loafers to oligarchs is more of a priority than hitting back at Putin,' source adds.
In other news, I read that Sunak has also been sent a questionnaire by the Met.
It was on the front of the telegraph, I flagged it up last night.
Do you think it’s true, those who can afford a good lawyer can fill this in and get off with it? Surely the police will get to the truth, no matter how clever a lawyer, there only so much they can do answering this form for you to hide the truth?
There is no legal obligation to answer the questionnaire, especially if it is stated to be the equivalent of being questioned under caution.
If the police have evidence they can issue an FPN. But that could be challenged at which point I think it would go to court.
It depends what evidence the police have. Sending a questionnaire is an unusual way of investigating, IMO.
You challenge a FPN by simply sitting on your arse and not paying for 28 days, the onus then being on whoever issued it to take things further
Italian prime minister Mario Draghi successfully secured a carve out for Italian luxury goods from the EU's package of economic sanctions against Nato, EU dip tells me. 'Apparently selling Gucci loafers to oligarchs is more of a priority than hitting back at Putin,' source adds.
“The EU is preparing to freeze the assets of Russia’s president Vladimir Putin and foreign minister Sergei Lavrov as part of a third round of sanctions against Russia, the Financial Times reports.”
Wow! Getting seriously tough on them now then. 🙄
Wasn’t this done years ago? How many times down the years can they keep announcing this?
Meanwhile, Zelenskiy latest address has said:
* UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT ACCUSES EUROPE OF INSUFFICIENT REACTION, SLOW HELP TO UKRAINE * UKRAINE’S ZELENSKIY SAYS RUSSIAN ASSAULT LIKE REPEAT OF WORLD WAR TWO UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT CALLS ON EUROPEAN CITIZENS TO PROTEST TO FORCE THEIR GOVERNMENTS TO MORE DECISIVELY
Sky reported that Putin moved his mega yacht out of German shipyard last week back to Russia....
Come off it. He would be dropping the nukes on Kiev himself.
What an unbelievably childish and stupid comment from EPG. Straight out of the sixth form debating society playbook that has led us to where we are.
Indeed.
Trump would be telling the Ukrainians he'd get involved, so long as they dig up dirt on his political opponents for him.
German policy over the last decade is turning into a total and complete catastrophe. Trump, arrogant and insensitive as he is, saw that, and tried to warn them in the excerpt HYUFD quoted.
Oh but its all Trump's fault, right? delusional.
I specifically attacked Germany and Italy before for selling their souls and was inanely accused of anti European prejudice by Kinabalu and now you think I delusionally believe it's all about Trump.
How about no. Germany's policies for years have been an utter disaster. So was Trump. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Germany "selling their soul" for Russian gas. This is the sort of thing I mean. Not just you but tons of people expressing themselves like this.
I watched a doc the other day about the StalinRussia/NaziGermany conflict - the dense black core of WW2 militarily if anything can be described that way. It wasn't that long ago, really, and this terrible history (between those nations) weighs heavy. In Germany there is great guilt and sensitivity about it.
So, ok, Germany seeking to normalize relations with Russia, be friends, trading actively with them, the energy arrangements, all of this now stands revealed as a serious geopolitical mistake - but "selling their soul"? C'mon.
If it gets to the point where your financial reliance or commitments prevent you from doing what is morally right - either as a country or an individual then in my view you have indeed sold your soul.
They are highly exposed to the impact of certain sanctions and it's holding them back from doing everything we'd like to see (although they are doing some things). But "sold their soul" rhetoric would only be fair if their motives for getting themselves into such a position were naked self-interest and I don't believe this was the case. They've made a mistake - is how I view it.
How could Germany stop them if the weapons are already in the hands of those Baltic states?
When weapons are sold between countries, there are quite often stipulations in the contracts about on-selling. As in the original supplier often has a veto of transfers to a third country.
I believe that, in this case, Germany is refusing permission to on-sell/supply anything they sold to other countries, to Ukraine.
Lavrov says Zelensky had been trying to expel Russian speakers from Ukraine. Compares it to what would have been the reaction if the Republic of Ireland had tried to expel English speakers or if Belgium had tried to expel French speakers.
Come off it. He would be dropping the nukes on Kiev himself.
What an unbelievably childish and stupid comment from EPG. Straight out of the sixth form debating society playbook that has led us to where we are.
Indeed.
Trump would be telling the Ukrainians he'd get involved, so long as they dig up dirt on his political opponents for him.
German policy over the last decade is turning into a total and complete catastrophe. Trump, arrogant and insensitive as he is, saw that, and tried to warn them in the excerpt HYUFD quoted.
Oh but its all Trump's fault, right? delusional.
I specifically attacked Germany and Italy before for selling their souls and was inanely accused of anti European prejudice by Kinabalu and now you think I delusionally believe it's all about Trump.
How about no. Germany's policies for years have been an utter disaster. So was Trump. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Germany "selling their soul" for Russian gas. This is the sort of thing I mean. Not just you but tons of people expressing themselves like this.
I watched a doc the other day about the StalinRussia/NaziGermany conflict - the dense black core of WW2 militarily if anything can be described that way. It wasn't that long ago, really, and this terrible history (between those nations) weighs heavy. In Germany there is great guilt and sensitivity about it.
So, ok, Germany seeking to normalize relations with Russia, be friends, trading actively with them, the energy arrangements, all of this now stands revealed as a serious geopolitical mistake - but "selling their soul"? C'mon.
If it gets to the point where your financial reliance or commitments prevent you from doing what is morally right - either as a country or an individual then in my view you have indeed sold your soul.
They are highly exposed to the impact of certain sanctions and it's holding them back from doing everything we'd like to see (although they are doing some things). But "sold their soul" rhetoric would only be fair if their motives for getting themselves into such a position were naked self-interest and I don't believe this was the case. They've made a mistake - is how I view it.
How could Germany stop them if the weapons are already in the hands of those Baltic states?
"However, Germany is blocking Estonia from doing so since the weapons it wants to send to Ukraine are of German origin. Berlin’s blockade comes due to the country’s policy against exporting arms to tense regions.
“The principle governing arms exports is always the same—whether they come directly from Germany or from third countries—and no permission has been issued at this stage… It is not possible to estimate the outcome of the process at this moment,” a German government official told the Wall Street Journal (WSJ). An Estonian official told the media outlet that his country hopes to soon get approval from Germany." https://www.visiontimes.com/2022/01/22/germany-blocks-estonias-weapons-transfer-to-ukraine.html
Italian prime minister Mario Draghi successfully secured a carve out for Italian luxury goods from the EU's package of economic sanctions against Nato, EU dip tells me. 'Apparently selling Gucci loafers to oligarchs is more of a priority than hitting back at Putin,' source adds.
“The EU is preparing to freeze the assets of Russia’s president Vladimir Putin and foreign minister Sergei Lavrov as part of a third round of sanctions against Russia, the Financial Times reports.”
Wow! Getting seriously tough on them now then. 🙄
Wasn’t this done years ago? How many times down the years can they keep announcing this?
Meanwhile, Zelenskiy latest address has said:
* UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT ACCUSES EUROPE OF INSUFFICIENT REACTION, SLOW HELP TO UKRAINE * UKRAINE’S ZELENSKIY SAYS RUSSIAN ASSAULT LIKE REPEAT OF WORLD WAR TWO UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT CALLS ON EUROPEAN CITIZENS TO PROTEST TO FORCE THEIR GOVERNMENTS TO MORE DECISIVELY
Moved on from the more harmonious talk of allies, which is fair enough.
Come off it. He would be dropping the nukes on Kiev himself.
What an unbelievably childish and stupid comment from EPG. Straight out of the sixth form debating society playbook that has led us to where we are.
Indeed.
Trump would be telling the Ukrainians he'd get involved, so long as they dig up dirt on his political opponents for him.
German policy over the last decade is turning into a total and complete catastrophe. Trump, arrogant and insensitive as he is, saw that, and tried to warn them in the excerpt HYUFD quoted.
Oh but its all Trump's fault, right? delusional.
I specifically attacked Germany and Italy before for selling their souls and was inanely accused of anti European prejudice by Kinabalu and now you think I delusionally believe it's all about Trump.
How about no. Germany's policies for years have been an utter disaster. So was Trump. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Germany "selling their soul" for Russian gas. This is the sort of thing I mean. Not just you but tons of people expressing themselves like this.
I watched a doc the other day about the StalinRussia/NaziGermany conflict - the dense black core of WW2 militarily if anything can be described that way. It wasn't that long ago, really, and this terrible history (between those nations) weighs heavy. In Germany there is great guilt and sensitivity about it.
So, ok, Germany seeking to normalize relations with Russia, be friends, trading actively with them, the energy arrangements, all of this now stands revealed as a serious geopolitical mistake - but "selling their soul"? C'mon.
If it gets to the point where your financial reliance or commitments prevent you from doing what is morally right - either as a country or an individual then in my view you have indeed sold your soul.
They are highly exposed to the impact of certain sanctions and it's holding them back from doing everything we'd like to see (although they are doing some things). But "sold their soul" rhetoric would only be fair if their motives for getting themselves into such a position were naked self-interest and I don't believe this was the case. They've made a mistake - is how I view it.
Italian prime minister Mario Draghi successfully secured a carve out for Italian luxury goods from the EU's package of economic sanctions against Nato, EU dip tells me. 'Apparently selling Gucci loafers to oligarchs is more of a priority than hitting back at Putin,' source adds.
In other news, I read that Sunak has also been sent a questionnaire by the Met.
It was on the front of the telegraph, I flagged it up last night.
Do you think it’s true, those who can afford a good lawyer can fill this in and get off with it? Surely the police will get to the truth, no matter how clever a lawyer, there only so much they can do answering this form for you to hide the truth?
There is no legal obligation to answer the questionnaire, especially if it is stated to be the equivalent of being questioned under caution.
If the police have evidence they can issue an FPN. But that could be challenged at which point I think it would go to court.
It depends what evidence the police have. Sending a questionnaire is an unusual way of investigating, IMO.
You said ages ago it’s unusual and weak way of doing it, and last couple of weeks TV have lawyers saying the same.
It doesn’t bode well for justice being seen to be done or closure of this 😕
Italian prime minister Mario Draghi successfully secured a carve out for Italian luxury goods from the EU's package of economic sanctions against Nato, EU dip tells me. 'Apparently selling Gucci loafers to oligarchs is more of a priority than hitting back at Putin,' source adds.
Come off it. He would be dropping the nukes on Kiev himself.
What an unbelievably childish and stupid comment from EPG. Straight out of the sixth form debating society playbook that has led us to where we are.
Indeed.
Trump would be telling the Ukrainians he'd get involved, so long as they dig up dirt on his political opponents for him.
German policy over the last decade is turning into a total and complete catastrophe. Trump, arrogant and insensitive as he is, saw that, and tried to warn them in the excerpt HYUFD quoted.
Oh but its all Trump's fault, right? delusional.
I specifically attacked Germany and Italy before for selling their souls and was inanely accused of anti European prejudice by Kinabalu and now you think I delusionally believe it's all about Trump.
How about no. Germany's policies for years have been an utter disaster. So was Trump. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Germany "selling their soul" for Russian gas. This is the sort of thing I mean. Not just you but tons of people expressing themselves like this.
I watched a doc the other day about the StalinRussia/NaziGermany conflict - the dense black core of WW2 militarily if anything can be described that way. It wasn't that long ago, really, and this terrible history (between those nations) weighs heavy. In Germany there is great guilt and sensitivity about it.
So, ok, Germany seeking to normalize relations with Russia, be friends, trading actively with them, the energy arrangements, all of this now stands revealed as a serious geopolitical mistake - but "selling their soul"? C'mon.
If it gets to the point where your financial reliance or commitments prevent you from doing what is morally right - either as a country or an individual then in my view you have indeed sold your soul.
They are highly exposed to the impact of certain sanctions and it's holding them back from doing everything we'd like to see (although they are doing some things). But "sold their soul" rhetoric would only be fair if their motives for getting themselves into such a position were naked self-interest and I don't believe this was the case. They've made a mistake - is how I view it.
How could Germany stop them if the weapons are already in the hands of those Baltic states?
When arms are sold, the contacts includes a claws that states it can not be sold or transfer without the permission of the German government, (most arms exporting nations do this) Germany has banned any German made deadly weapons from going to Ukraine, including those in use by the Baltic nations.
Germany did promise 5,000 helmets but then did not deliver them
Lavrov says Zelensky had been trying to expel Russian speakers from Ukraine. Compares it to what would have been the reaction if the Republic of Ireland had tried to expel English speakers or if Belgium had tried to expel French speakers.
Come off it. He would be dropping the nukes on Kiev himself.
What an unbelievably childish and stupid comment from EPG. Straight out of the sixth form debating society playbook that has led us to where we are.
Indeed.
Trump would be telling the Ukrainians he'd get involved, so long as they dig up dirt on his political opponents for him.
German policy over the last decade is turning into a total and complete catastrophe. Trump, arrogant and insensitive as he is, saw that, and tried to warn them in the excerpt HYUFD quoted.
Oh but its all Trump's fault, right? delusional.
I specifically attacked Germany and Italy before for selling their souls and was inanely accused of anti European prejudice by Kinabalu and now you think I delusionally believe it's all about Trump.
How about no. Germany's policies for years have been an utter disaster. So was Trump. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Germany "selling their soul" for Russian gas. This is the sort of thing I mean. Not just you but tons of people expressing themselves like this.
I watched a doc the other day about the StalinRussia/NaziGermany conflict - the dense black core of WW2 militarily if anything can be described that way. It wasn't that long ago, really, and this terrible history (between those nations) weighs heavy. In Germany there is great guilt and sensitivity about it.
So, ok, Germany seeking to normalize relations with Russia, be friends, trading actively with them, the energy arrangements, all of this now stands revealed as a serious geopolitical mistake - but "selling their soul"? C'mon.
I once read that, as the Red Army advanced to Berlin, up to two million German women were raped by Russian soldiers.
The writer Vasily Grossman details the depressing familiarity of watching the unbuckling of belts and screaming of girls as columns of German refugees were overhauled by advancing soldiers.
Where's the Russian guilt? where's the Russia guilt over the immense suffering caused by oppressed people in the satellite states during the Warsaw pact years?
Given the opportunity Russians are just as cruel as anybody.
The violence and suffering in WW2 was off the scale and it was Germany who enabled the Nazis and unleashed the horror. It weighs on them still and imo this aspect to German decision-making shouldn't be forgotten or trivialized or too heavily lamented. That's the one and only point I'm making.
Where do the Ukrainian oligarchs fall in this conflict? Billionaires are not known for nationalistic fervour, but presumably could martial substantial influence even in an invasion situation.
Italian prime minister Mario Draghi successfully secured a carve out for Italian luxury goods from the EU's package of economic sanctions against Nato, EU dip tells me. 'Apparently selling Gucci loafers to oligarchs is more of a priority than hitting back at Putin,' source adds.
Lavrov says Zelensky had been trying to expel Russian speakers from Ukraine. Compares it to what would have been the reaction if the Republic of Ireland had tried to expel English speakers or if Belgium had tried to expel French speakers.
Where do the Ukrainian oligarchs fall in this conflict? Billionaires are not known for nationalistic fervour, but presumably could martial substantial influence even in an invasion situation.
Well this multi millionaire has picked up his machine gun.
Regarding SWIFT, I see that Austria and Cyprus, in addition to Germany, Italy and Hungary, are against including it in sanctions at the moment. Austria's Chancellor Karl Nehammer said that suspending SWIFT would hurt the EU rather more than it would hurt Russia, and that Russia has its own payment system, or could immediately switch to using the Chinese system.
Come off it. He would be dropping the nukes on Kiev himself.
What an unbelievably childish and stupid comment from EPG. Straight out of the sixth form debating society playbook that has led us to where we are.
Indeed.
Trump would be telling the Ukrainians he'd get involved, so long as they dig up dirt on his political opponents for him.
German policy over the last decade is turning into a total and complete catastrophe. Trump, arrogant and insensitive as he is, saw that, and tried to warn them in the excerpt HYUFD quoted.
Oh but its all Trump's fault, right? delusional.
I specifically attacked Germany and Italy before for selling their souls and was inanely accused of anti European prejudice by Kinabalu and now you think I delusionally believe it's all about Trump.
How about no. Germany's policies for years have been an utter disaster. So was Trump. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Germany "selling their soul" for Russian gas. This is the sort of thing I mean. Not just you but tons of people expressing themselves like this.
I watched a doc the other day about the StalinRussia/NaziGermany conflict - the dense black core of WW2 militarily if anything can be described that way. It wasn't that long ago, really, and this terrible history (between those nations) weighs heavy. In Germany there is great guilt and sensitivity about it.
So, ok, Germany seeking to normalize relations with Russia, be friends, trading actively with them, the energy arrangements, all of this now stands revealed as a serious geopolitical mistake - but "selling their soul"? C'mon.
If it gets to the point where your financial reliance or commitments prevent you from doing what is morally right - either as a country or an individual then in my view you have indeed sold your soul.
They are highly exposed to the impact of certain sanctions and it's holding them back from doing everything we'd like to see (although they are doing some things). But "sold their soul" rhetoric would only be fair if their motives for getting themselves into such a position were naked self-interest and I don't believe this was the case. They've made a mistake - is how I view it.
Lavrov says Zelensky had been trying to expel Russian speakers from Ukraine. Compares it to what would have been the reaction if the Republic of Ireland had tried to expel English speakers or if Belgium had tried to expel French speakers.
BBC piece asking why is it so hard to fix the Met's toxic culture. I'd have thought the answer is simple, as with any organisation and institution with cultural problems - that the organisation doesn't want to change, and those who might force it to don't want to, even if they say they do (actions speaking louder than words)
Culture can be hard to change, but not as much as people suggest - where there is a will culture changes rapidly and decisively.
The most important thing is to realise there is a problem and then want to change it.
I don't believe the Met leadership really believe the first and so have no real will to do the second.
Until this changes, nothing much will really improve for the better.
There are lots of organisations that say all the right things but when faced with the reality of what that entails do nothing or the bare minimum, as I know professionally only too well.
Part of the problem is that admitting it would require government to admit that it has acquiesced to the situation for many years. So far they seem to be sticking with the 'few rotten apples & 99% heroes' line.
Italian prime minister Mario Draghi successfully secured a carve out for Italian luxury goods from the EU's package of economic sanctions against Nato, EU dip tells me. 'Apparently selling Gucci loafers to oligarchs is more of a priority than hitting back at Putin,' source adds.
“The EU is preparing to freeze the assets of Russia’s president Vladimir Putin and foreign minister Sergei Lavrov as part of a third round of sanctions against Russia, the Financial Times reports.”
Wow! Getting seriously tough on them now then. 🙄
Wasn’t this done years ago? How many times down the years can they keep announcing this?
Meanwhile, Zelenskiy latest address has said:
* UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT ACCUSES EUROPE OF INSUFFICIENT REACTION, SLOW HELP TO UKRAINE * UKRAINE’S ZELENSKIY SAYS RUSSIAN ASSAULT LIKE REPEAT OF WORLD WAR TWO UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT CALLS ON EUROPEAN CITIZENS TO PROTEST TO FORCE THEIR GOVERNMENTS TO MORE DECISIVELY
Moved on from the more harmonious talk of allies, which is fair enough.
He doesn’t regard us as shoulder to shoulder, although UK government still spinning that impression out for internal consumption.
What do we make of this bit. Does Zelenskiy really want to surrender to neutrality in talks with Putin?
Volodymyr Zelenskiy’s recent comments as he called on Vladimir Putin to sit return to the negotiation table. In a televised statement today, Zelenskiy said he is calling on the Russian leader to negotiate to put an end to the fighting.
Will Zelenskiy stay alive to allow Moscow to use him as a puppet? Or give himself both barrels like Allende. Or flee to Spain like Peron?
Allende shot himself rather than be used as a puppet. Will Zelenskiy Putin puppet and neutral Ukraine be the end game and some sort of closure? If so, it means the NATO position of not really helping, and the fact sanctions and other help has been rubbish is justified, and could have come from our intelligence suggesting Zelenskiy would end up doing this?
My prediction is Zelenskiy will be in Moscow having talks very soon.
Come off it. He would be dropping the nukes on Kiev himself.
What an unbelievably childish and stupid comment from EPG. Straight out of the sixth form debating society playbook that has led us to where we are.
Indeed.
Trump would be telling the Ukrainians he'd get involved, so long as they dig up dirt on his political opponents for him.
German policy over the last decade is turning into a total and complete catastrophe. Trump, arrogant and insensitive as he is, saw that, and tried to warn them in the excerpt HYUFD quoted.
Oh but its all Trump's fault, right? delusional.
I specifically attacked Germany and Italy before for selling their souls and was inanely accused of anti European prejudice by Kinabalu and now you think I delusionally believe it's all about Trump.
How about no. Germany's policies for years have been an utter disaster. So was Trump. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Germany "selling their soul" for Russian gas. This is the sort of thing I mean. Not just you but tons of people expressing themselves like this.
I watched a doc the other day about the StalinRussia/NaziGermany conflict - the dense black core of WW2 militarily if anything can be described that way. It wasn't that long ago, really, and this terrible history (between those nations) weighs heavy. In Germany there is great guilt and sensitivity about it.
So, ok, Germany seeking to normalize relations with Russia, be friends, trading actively with them, the energy arrangements, all of this now stands revealed as a serious geopolitical mistake - but "selling their soul"? C'mon.
I once read that, as the Red Army advanced to Berlin, up to two million German women were raped by Russian soldiers.
The writer Vasily Grossman details the depressing familiarity of watching the unbuckling of belts and screaming of girls as columns of German refugees were overhauled by advancing soldiers.
Where's the Russian guilt? where's the Russia guilt over the immense suffering caused by oppressed people in the satellite states during the Warsaw pact years?
Given the opportunity Russians are just as cruel as anybody.
The violence and suffering in WW2 was off the scale and it was Germany who enabled the Nazis and unleashed the horror. It weighs on them still and imo this aspect to German decision-making shouldn't be forgotten or trivialized or too heavily lamented. That's the one and only point I'm making.
Nobody except a tabloid journalist writes that anything happened to "up to" 2 million of anything. But, yes, the Russian invasion of Germany is vdifficult to read about without guilty feelings of indulging in atrocity porn
Though I have to say that it is all very well to respect the great guilt and sensitivity of Germany and Russia between each other, but let's not forget what they sequentially did to the people of Ukraine at the relevant time.
Regarding SWIFT, I see that Austria and Cyprus, in addition to Germany, Italy and Hungary, are against including it in sanctions at the moment. Austria's Chancellor Karl Nehammer said that suspending SWIFT would hurt the EU rather more than it would hurt Russia, and that Russia has its own payment system, or could immediately switch to using the Chinese system.
So what we are saying is the issue is a lot more conplex than when Starmer was trying to bash Boris over why the UK government hadn't just gone and done it immediately.
Lavrov says Zelensky had been trying to expel Russian speakers from Ukraine. Compares it to what would have been the reaction if the Republic of Ireland had tried to expel English speakers or if Belgium had tried to expel French speakers.
Regarding SWIFT, I see that Austria and Cyprus, in addition to Germany, Italy and Hungary, are against including it in sanctions at the moment. Austria's Chancellor Karl Nehammer said that suspending SWIFT would hurt the EU rather more than it would hurt Russia, and that Russia has its own payment system, or could immediately switch to using the Chinese system.
I might be wrong, but I thought that if the G7 nations all decided to block a nation from SWIFT then if could/would happen. can anybody confirm if this is right?
If so Cypress, Austria, Hungary are all irrelevant, as for Italy I don't think it would stick its neck out and veto if the other 6 G7 nations where determined.
Come off it. He would be dropping the nukes on Kiev himself.
What an unbelievably childish and stupid comment from EPG. Straight out of the sixth form debating society playbook that has led us to where we are.
Indeed.
Trump would be telling the Ukrainians he'd get involved, so long as they dig up dirt on his political opponents for him.
German policy over the last decade is turning into a total and complete catastrophe. Trump, arrogant and insensitive as he is, saw that, and tried to warn them in the excerpt HYUFD quoted.
Oh but its all Trump's fault, right? delusional.
I specifically attacked Germany and Italy before for selling their souls and was inanely accused of anti European prejudice by Kinabalu and now you think I delusionally believe it's all about Trump.
How about no. Germany's policies for years have been an utter disaster. So was Trump. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Germany "selling their soul" for Russian gas. This is the sort of thing I mean. Not just you but tons of people expressing themselves like this.
I watched a doc the other day about the StalinRussia/NaziGermany conflict - the dense black core of WW2 militarily if anything can be described that way. It wasn't that long ago, really, and this terrible history (between those nations) weighs heavy. In Germany there is great guilt and sensitivity about it.
So, ok, Germany seeking to normalize relations with Russia, be friends, trading actively with them, the energy arrangements, all of this now stands revealed as a serious geopolitical mistake - but "selling their soul"? C'mon.
Yes selling their soul.
Trading with friendly allies is one thing, but Russia is not a friendly ally. So why is Germany refusing to expel them from SWIFT?
The French tried diplomacy too, but once Russia invaded they said that they'd been lied to and that action now needed to be taken. Credit to Macron for that.
But Germany is blocking sanctions. That's not to "normalise" relations, there's nothing "normal" about one European nation invading a European democracy.
There is no excuse to blocking the sanctions, except that they've sold their souls because of the gas. Sanctions should hurt yourself as well as the other party - even Sir Keir Starmer said that, credit where it's due - but two nations are refusing to do so.
If not because they've sold their souls for gas, then why?
I'm not defending Germany's stance right now on sanctions. I'm giving some context on why Germany has, since the fall of the USSR and their reunification, been especially motivated to have a positive relationship with Russia. If you want to view these efforts as "selling their soul", so be it, but for me it's a shallow and jaundiced take.
No I am not viewing past efforts as "selling their soul".
I am saying their current stance is because they've sold their soul. The objection isn't to what they've done in the past, its to what they are [not] doing today.
Can't you understand that?
Yep, I understand you perfectly as always. You are saying the limitations of their current stance is because they have SOLD THEIR SOUL for Russian gas. And I'm saying that's a rather shallow, jaundiced take. Especially when it's put in screaming capitals.
Regarding SWIFT, I see that Austria and Cyprus, in addition to Germany, Italy and Hungary, are against including it in sanctions at the moment. Austria's Chancellor Karl Nehammer said that suspending SWIFT would hurt the EU rather more than it would hurt Russia, and that Russia has its own payment system, or could immediately switch to using the Chinese system.
So what we are saying is the issue is a lot more conplex than when Starmer was trying to bash Boris over why the UK government hadn't just gone and done it immediately.
IIRC because SWIFT is actually run by a company registered in Belgium, a sanctions law in Belgium would mean they had to shut out Russia.
But the Belgian government is loathe to do that without the back of the rest of Europe - see the Iranian exclusion from SWIFT.
Regarding SWIFT, I see that Austria and Cyprus, in addition to Germany, Italy and Hungary, are against including it in sanctions at the moment. Austria's Chancellor Karl Nehammer said that suspending SWIFT would hurt the EU rather more than it would hurt Russia, and that Russia has its own payment system, or could immediately switch to using the Chinese system.
Bruno says the Americans are privately against kicking Russia out of SWIFT
Bruno Maçães @MacaesBruno Heard from two people this morning that the US is privately opposed to excluding Russia from Swift. Particularly jarring and offensive to see Biden argue in public that it’s the Europeans stopping him https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1497203810120441856
Regarding SWIFT, I see that Austria and Cyprus, in addition to Germany, Italy and Hungary, are against including it in sanctions at the moment. Austria's Chancellor Karl Nehammer said that suspending SWIFT would hurt the EU rather more than it would hurt Russia, and that Russia has its own payment system, or could immediately switch to using the Chinese system.
That may be true, and anti-reactionary and very thoughtful response… but it’s also true that list are the ones whose banks are exposed to Russian money.
Italian prime minister Mario Draghi successfully secured a carve out for Italian luxury goods from the EU's package of economic sanctions against Nato, EU dip tells me. 'Apparently selling Gucci loafers to oligarchs is more of a priority than hitting back at Putin,' source adds.
“The EU is preparing to freeze the assets of Russia’s president Vladimir Putin and foreign minister Sergei Lavrov as part of a third round of sanctions against Russia, the Financial Times reports.”
Wow! Getting seriously tough on them now then. 🙄
Wasn’t this done years ago? How many times down the years can they keep announcing this?
Meanwhile, Zelenskiy latest address has said:
* UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT ACCUSES EUROPE OF INSUFFICIENT REACTION, SLOW HELP TO UKRAINE * UKRAINE’S ZELENSKIY SAYS RUSSIAN ASSAULT LIKE REPEAT OF WORLD WAR TWO UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT CALLS ON EUROPEAN CITIZENS TO PROTEST TO FORCE THEIR GOVERNMENTS TO MORE DECISIVELY
Moved on from the more harmonious talk of allies, which is fair enough.
He doesn’t regard us as shoulder to shoulder, although UK government still spinning that impression out for internal consumption.
What do we make of this bit. Does Zelenskiy really want to surrender to neutrality in talks with Putin?
Volodymyr Zelenskiy’s recent comments as he called on Vladimir Putin to sit return to the negotiation table. In a televised statement today, Zelenskiy said he is calling on the Russian leader to negotiate to put an end to the fighting.
Will Zelenskiy stay alive to allow Moscow to use him as a puppet? Or give himself both barrels like Allende. Or flee to Spain like Peron?
Allende shot himself rather than be used as a puppet. Will Zelenskiy Putin puppet and neutral Ukraine be the end game and some sort of closure? If so, it means the NATO position of not really helping, and the fact sanctions and other help has been rubbish is justified, and could have come from our intelligence suggesting Zelenskiy would end up doing this?
My prediction is Zelenskiy will be in Moscow having talks very soon.
Presumably the negotiations could be done on Teams/Zoom?
Come off it. He would be dropping the nukes on Kiev himself.
What an unbelievably childish and stupid comment from EPG. Straight out of the sixth form debating society playbook that has led us to where we are.
Indeed.
Trump would be telling the Ukrainians he'd get involved, so long as they dig up dirt on his political opponents for him.
German policy over the last decade is turning into a total and complete catastrophe. Trump, arrogant and insensitive as he is, saw that, and tried to warn them in the excerpt HYUFD quoted.
Oh but its all Trump's fault, right? delusional.
I specifically attacked Germany and Italy before for selling their souls and was inanely accused of anti European prejudice by Kinabalu and now you think I delusionally believe it's all about Trump.
How about no. Germany's policies for years have been an utter disaster. So was Trump. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Germany "selling their soul" for Russian gas. This is the sort of thing I mean. Not just you but tons of people expressing themselves like this.
I watched a doc the other day about the StalinRussia/NaziGermany conflict - the dense black core of WW2 militarily if anything can be described that way. It wasn't that long ago, really, and this terrible history (between those nations) weighs heavy. In Germany there is great guilt and sensitivity about it.
So, ok, Germany seeking to normalize relations with Russia, be friends, trading actively with them, the energy arrangements, all of this now stands revealed as a serious geopolitical mistake - but "selling their soul"? C'mon.
Yes selling their soul.
Trading with friendly allies is one thing, but Russia is not a friendly ally. So why is Germany refusing to expel them from SWIFT?
The French tried diplomacy too, but once Russia invaded they said that they'd been lied to and that action now needed to be taken. Credit to Macron for that.
But Germany is blocking sanctions. That's not to "normalise" relations, there's nothing "normal" about one European nation invading a European democracy.
There is no excuse to blocking the sanctions, except that they've sold their souls because of the gas. Sanctions should hurt yourself as well as the other party - even Sir Keir Starmer said that, credit where it's due - but two nations are refusing to do so.
If not because they've sold their souls for gas, then why?
I'm not defending Germany's stance right now on sanctions. I'm giving some context on why Germany has, since the fall of the USSR and their reunification, been especially motivated to have a positive relationship with Russia. If you want to view these efforts as "selling their soul", so be it, but for me it's a shallow and jaundiced take.
No I am not viewing past efforts as "selling their soul".
I am saying their current stance is because they've sold their soul. The objection isn't to what they've done in the past, its to what they are [not] doing today.
Can't you understand that?
Has any Western country so far imposed sanctions on the Russians that will cause it any meaningful pain? If we are asking the Germans to do that, shouldn't we be prepared to do it, too?
It doesn't feel like it. The ban on flights between Russia and the UK might be the nearest if it's sustained.
I imagine China is watching this and thinking that it doesn't have to worry about our reaction to an invasion of Taiwan. They only have to make it across the Straight.
We desperately need to start thinking ahead instead of squabbling over the minutiae of inadequate reactions.
Come off it. He would be dropping the nukes on Kiev himself.
What an unbelievably childish and stupid comment from EPG. Straight out of the sixth form debating society playbook that has led us to where we are.
Indeed.
Trump would be telling the Ukrainians he'd get involved, so long as they dig up dirt on his political opponents for him.
German policy over the last decade is turning into a total and complete catastrophe. Trump, arrogant and insensitive as he is, saw that, and tried to warn them in the excerpt HYUFD quoted.
Oh but its all Trump's fault, right? delusional.
I specifically attacked Germany and Italy before for selling their souls and was inanely accused of anti European prejudice by Kinabalu and now you think I delusionally believe it's all about Trump.
How about no. Germany's policies for years have been an utter disaster. So was Trump. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Germany "selling their soul" for Russian gas. This is the sort of thing I mean. Not just you but tons of people expressing themselves like this.
I watched a doc the other day about the StalinRussia/NaziGermany conflict - the dense black core of WW2 militarily if anything can be described that way. It wasn't that long ago, really, and this terrible history (between those nations) weighs heavy. In Germany there is great guilt and sensitivity about it.
So, ok, Germany seeking to normalize relations with Russia, be friends, trading actively with them, the energy arrangements, all of this now stands revealed as a serious geopolitical mistake - but "selling their soul"? C'mon.
Also, the idea that if only Germany hadn't allowed Nordstream 2 to be built Putin would have dropped his invasion plans seems a bit far-fetched.
In fact, imagining the counter factual where there was no attempt to engage Russia, probably the planned invasion would be happening just the same and we'd be hearing loads of people saying "this is all the fault of the Germans for refusing to engage with Russia so now they've got nothing to lose"
I think you are German, aren't you? So can I ask - how does "the nation's soul has been sold out for Russian gas" play with you? Is it a common view there too?
I'm interested because it's closing in on meme status for pundits over here. I think I've read or heard the phrase about 500 times just in the last couple of weeks.
No, I have acquired German citizenship.
People are familiar with the long-standing policy, it's called "Wandel durch Handel" and it goes a lot further than gas. German businesses, who directly employ 100s of thousands of Russians in Russia, have told the government they are worried about being able to pay their employees. These are the kinds of things being considered. Now, probably Germany should support all possible sanctions, and maybe will support SWIFT ejection eventually , but they are hardly the only country hesitating with sanctions of various kinds.
I don't know any Germans who think Germany has "sold its soul for gas", right now it's just anger with Putin, and fear of a big European war among people I know.
But obviously the whole Wandel durch Handel policy is now discredited. I don't think some of the moral indignation on PB is particularly well-informed or justified. Something like Wandel durch Handel has also been pursued by many countries in relations with lots of dictatorial regimes with varying degrees of success and failure, and usually with a big helping of self-interest, so again Germany is hardly some kind of outlier.
Germany also has a long standing policy of not selling arms to conflict zones, which is widely supported. One of the reasons for my dislike of the Merkel-led governments was their failure to uphold this policy (the SPD eventually stopped Germany exporting weapons to Saudi Arabia, which was a bit of an electoral issue here). So again Germans have a bit more understanding of the German policy of not exporting arms to Ukraine.
Come off it. He would be dropping the nukes on Kiev himself.
What an unbelievably childish and stupid comment from EPG. Straight out of the sixth form debating society playbook that has led us to where we are.
Indeed.
Trump would be telling the Ukrainians he'd get involved, so long as they dig up dirt on his political opponents for him.
German policy over the last decade is turning into a total and complete catastrophe. Trump, arrogant and insensitive as he is, saw that, and tried to warn them in the excerpt HYUFD quoted.
Oh but its all Trump's fault, right? delusional.
I specifically attacked Germany and Italy before for selling their souls and was inanely accused of anti European prejudice by Kinabalu and now you think I delusionally believe it's all about Trump.
How about no. Germany's policies for years have been an utter disaster. So was Trump. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Germany "selling their soul" for Russian gas. This is the sort of thing I mean. Not just you but tons of people expressing themselves like this.
I watched a doc the other day about the StalinRussia/NaziGermany conflict - the dense black core of WW2 militarily if anything can be described that way. It wasn't that long ago, really, and this terrible history (between those nations) weighs heavy. In Germany there is great guilt and sensitivity about it.
So, ok, Germany seeking to normalize relations with Russia, be friends, trading actively with them, the energy arrangements, all of this now stands revealed as a serious geopolitical mistake - but "selling their soul"? C'mon.
Also, the idea that if only Germany hadn't allowed Nordstream 2 to be built Putin would have dropped his invasion plans seems a bit far-fetched.
In fact, imagining the counter factual where there was no attempt to engage Russia, probably the planned invasion would be happening just the same and we'd be hearing loads of people saying "this is all the fault of the Germans for refusing to engage with Russia so now they've got nothing to lose"
I think you are German, aren't you? So can I ask - how does "the nation's soul has been sold out for Russian gas" play with you? Is it a common view there too?
I'm interested because it's closing in on meme status for pundits over here. I think I've read or heard the phrase about 500 times just in the last couple of weeks.
No, I have acquired German citizenship.
People are familiar with the long-standing policy, it's called "Wandel durch Handel" and it goes a lot further than gas. German businesses, who directly employ 100s of thousands of Russians in Russia, have told the government they are worried about being able to pay their employees. These are the kinds of things being considered. Now, probably Germany should support all possible sanctions, and maybe will support SWIFT ejection eventually , but they are hardly the only country hesitating with sanctions of various kinds.
I don't know any Germans who think Germany has "sold its soul for gas", right now it's just anger with Putin, and fear of a big European war among people I know.
But obviously the whole Wandel durch Handel policy is now discredited. I don't think some of the moral indignation on PB is particularly well-informed or justified. Something like Wandel durch Handel has also been pursued by many countries in relations with lots of dictatorial regimes with varying degrees of success and failure, and usually with a big helping of self-interest, so again Germany is hardly some kind of outlier.
Germany also has a long standing policy of not selling arms to conflict zones, which is widely supported. One of the reasons for my dislike of the Merkel-led governments was their failure to uphold this policy (the SPD eventually stopped Germany exporting weapons to Saudi Arabia, which was a bit of an electoral issue here). So again Germans have a bit more understanding of the German policy of not exporting arms to Ukraine.
I have been told by Germans that the decision to rely on Russian gas was deliberate in that it was about making impossible for a conflict between Russia and Germany to work. Bind the countries so closely together that a fight was impossible....
Come off it. He would be dropping the nukes on Kiev himself.
What an unbelievably childish and stupid comment from EPG. Straight out of the sixth form debating society playbook that has led us to where we are.
Indeed.
Trump would be telling the Ukrainians he'd get involved, so long as they dig up dirt on his political opponents for him.
German policy over the last decade is turning into a total and complete catastrophe. Trump, arrogant and insensitive as he is, saw that, and tried to warn them in the excerpt HYUFD quoted.
Oh but its all Trump's fault, right? delusional.
I specifically attacked Germany and Italy before for selling their souls and was inanely accused of anti European prejudice by Kinabalu and now you think I delusionally believe it's all about Trump.
How about no. Germany's policies for years have been an utter disaster. So was Trump. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Germany "selling their soul" for Russian gas. This is the sort of thing I mean. Not just you but tons of people expressing themselves like this.
I watched a doc the other day about the StalinRussia/NaziGermany conflict - the dense black core of WW2 militarily if anything can be described that way. It wasn't that long ago, really, and this terrible history (between those nations) weighs heavy. In Germany there is great guilt and sensitivity about it.
So, ok, Germany seeking to normalize relations with Russia, be friends, trading actively with them, the energy arrangements, all of this now stands revealed as a serious geopolitical mistake - but "selling their soul"? C'mon.
I once read that, as the Red Army advanced to Berlin, up to two million German women were raped by Russian soldiers.
The writer Vasily Grossman details the depressing familiarity of watching the unbuckling of belts and screaming of girls as columns of German refugees were overhauled by advancing soldiers.
Where's the Russian guilt? where's the Russia guilt over the immense suffering caused by oppressed people in the satellite states during the Warsaw pact years?
Given the opportunity Russians are just as cruel as anybody.
The violence and suffering in WW2 was off the scale and it was Germany who enabled the Nazis and unleashed the horror. It weighs on them still and imo this aspect to German decision-making shouldn't be forgotten or trivialized or too heavily lamented. That's the one and only point I'm making.
Come off it. He would be dropping the nukes on Kiev himself.
What an unbelievably childish and stupid comment from EPG. Straight out of the sixth form debating society playbook that has led us to where we are.
Indeed.
Trump would be telling the Ukrainians he'd get involved, so long as they dig up dirt on his political opponents for him.
German policy over the last decade is turning into a total and complete catastrophe. Trump, arrogant and insensitive as he is, saw that, and tried to warn them in the excerpt HYUFD quoted.
Oh but its all Trump's fault, right? delusional.
I specifically attacked Germany and Italy before for selling their souls and was inanely accused of anti European prejudice by Kinabalu and now you think I delusionally believe it's all about Trump.
How about no. Germany's policies for years have been an utter disaster. So was Trump. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Germany "selling their soul" for Russian gas. This is the sort of thing I mean. Not just you but tons of people expressing themselves like this.
I watched a doc the other day about the StalinRussia/NaziGermany conflict - the dense black core of WW2 militarily if anything can be described that way. It wasn't that long ago, really, and this terrible history (between those nations) weighs heavy. In Germany there is great guilt and sensitivity about it.
So, ok, Germany seeking to normalize relations with Russia, be friends, trading actively with them, the energy arrangements, all of this now stands revealed as a serious geopolitical mistake - but "selling their soul"? C'mon.
If it gets to the point where your financial reliance or commitments prevent you from doing what is morally right - either as a country or an individual then in my view you have indeed sold your soul.
Actually I would correct what I have just written since I don't believe in blaming a country for the actions of its transient Government. So I would say it is the German Government rather than the whole country which has sold its soul. One could also make similar claims about the actions of the UK Government on many things, except I am not sure that most of them ever had a soul to sell.
Fair enough, an important distinction. And I don't mean to labour the point since it's not to excuse Germany from doing what it ought to be doing in this crisis. Plus I'm sure there was self-interest in there when it comes to the links they've forged with Russia and which have become a problem now. It's just this "selling their soul" phrase which I find a bit of a jar. If we're talking souls I'd say WW2 guilt is integral to theirs and rather than selling it they've allowed it in this case to impair judgment.
Come off it. He would be dropping the nukes on Kiev himself.
What an unbelievably childish and stupid comment from EPG. Straight out of the sixth form debating society playbook that has led us to where we are.
Indeed.
Trump would be telling the Ukrainians he'd get involved, so long as they dig up dirt on his political opponents for him.
German policy over the last decade is turning into a total and complete catastrophe. Trump, arrogant and insensitive as he is, saw that, and tried to warn them in the excerpt HYUFD quoted.
Oh but its all Trump's fault, right? delusional.
I specifically attacked Germany and Italy before for selling their souls and was inanely accused of anti European prejudice by Kinabalu and now you think I delusionally believe it's all about Trump.
How about no. Germany's policies for years have been an utter disaster. So was Trump. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Germany "selling their soul" for Russian gas. This is the sort of thing I mean. Not just you but tons of people expressing themselves like this.
I watched a doc the other day about the StalinRussia/NaziGermany conflict - the dense black core of WW2 militarily if anything can be described that way. It wasn't that long ago, really, and this terrible history (between those nations) weighs heavy. In Germany there is great guilt and sensitivity about it.
So, ok, Germany seeking to normalize relations with Russia, be friends, trading actively with them, the energy arrangements, all of this now stands revealed as a serious geopolitical mistake - but "selling their soul"? C'mon.
Also, the idea that if only Germany hadn't allowed Nordstream 2 to be built Putin would have dropped his invasion plans seems a bit far-fetched.
In fact, imagining the counter factual where there was no attempt to engage Russia, probably the planned invasion would be happening just the same and we'd be hearing loads of people saying "this is all the fault of the Germans for refusing to engage with Russia so now they've got nothing to lose"
I think you are German, aren't you? So can I ask - how does "the nation's soul has been sold out for Russian gas" play with you? Is it a common view there too?
I'm interested because it's closing in on meme status for pundits over here. I think I've read or heard the phrase about 500 times just in the last couple of weeks.
No, I have acquired German citizenship.
People are familiar with the long-standing policy, it's called "Wandel durch Handel" and it goes a lot further than gas. German businesses, who directly employ 100s of thousands of Russians in Russia, have told the government they are worried about being able to pay their employees. These are the kinds of things being considered. Now, probably Germany should support all possible sanctions, and maybe will support SWIFT ejection eventually , but they are hardly the only country hesitating with sanctions of various kinds.
I don't know any Germans who think Germany has "sold its soul for gas", right now it's just anger with Putin, and fear of a big European war among people I know.
But obviously the whole Wandel durch Handel policy is now discredited. I don't think some of the moral indignation on PB is particularly well-informed or justified. Something like Wandel durch Handel has also been pursued by many countries in relations with lots of dictatorial regimes with varying degrees of success and failure, and usually with a big helping of self-interest, so again Germany is hardly some kind of outlier.
In this case it's not simply a case of trading with a dictatorial regime, but indirectly financing a military build up directed against European allies while relying on military protection from the US. It was extremely naive, and when the absurdity of the situation was pointed out by people like Trump, he was just sneered at.
Come off it. He would be dropping the nukes on Kiev himself.
What an unbelievably childish and stupid comment from EPG. Straight out of the sixth form debating society playbook that has led us to where we are.
Indeed.
Trump would be telling the Ukrainians he'd get involved, so long as they dig up dirt on his political opponents for him.
German policy over the last decade is turning into a total and complete catastrophe. Trump, arrogant and insensitive as he is, saw that, and tried to warn them in the excerpt HYUFD quoted.
Oh but its all Trump's fault, right? delusional.
I specifically attacked Germany and Italy before for selling their souls and was inanely accused of anti European prejudice by Kinabalu and now you think I delusionally believe it's all about Trump.
How about no. Germany's policies for years have been an utter disaster. So was Trump. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Germany "selling their soul" for Russian gas. This is the sort of thing I mean. Not just you but tons of people expressing themselves like this.
I watched a doc the other day about the StalinRussia/NaziGermany conflict - the dense black core of WW2 militarily if anything can be described that way. It wasn't that long ago, really, and this terrible history (between those nations) weighs heavy. In Germany there is great guilt and sensitivity about it.
So, ok, Germany seeking to normalize relations with Russia, be friends, trading actively with them, the energy arrangements, all of this now stands revealed as a serious geopolitical mistake - but "selling their soul"? C'mon.
If it gets to the point where your financial reliance or commitments prevent you from doing what is morally right - either as a country or an individual then in my view you have indeed sold your soul.
They are highly exposed to the impact of certain sanctions and it's holding them back from doing everything we'd like to see (although they are doing some things). But "sold their soul" rhetoric would only be fair if their motives for getting themselves into such a position were naked self-interest and I don't believe this was the case. They've made a mistake - is how I view it.
Come off it. He would be dropping the nukes on Kiev himself.
What an unbelievably childish and stupid comment from EPG. Straight out of the sixth form debating society playbook that has led us to where we are.
Indeed.
Trump would be telling the Ukrainians he'd get involved, so long as they dig up dirt on his political opponents for him.
German policy over the last decade is turning into a total and complete catastrophe. Trump, arrogant and insensitive as he is, saw that, and tried to warn them in the excerpt HYUFD quoted.
Oh but its all Trump's fault, right? delusional.
I specifically attacked Germany and Italy before for selling their souls and was inanely accused of anti European prejudice by Kinabalu and now you think I delusionally believe it's all about Trump.
How about no. Germany's policies for years have been an utter disaster. So was Trump. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Germany "selling their soul" for Russian gas. This is the sort of thing I mean. Not just you but tons of people expressing themselves like this.
I watched a doc the other day about the StalinRussia/NaziGermany conflict - the dense black core of WW2 militarily if anything can be described that way. It wasn't that long ago, really, and this terrible history (between those nations) weighs heavy. In Germany there is great guilt and sensitivity about it.
So, ok, Germany seeking to normalize relations with Russia, be friends, trading actively with them, the energy arrangements, all of this now stands revealed as a serious geopolitical mistake - but "selling their soul"? C'mon.
Also, the idea that if only Germany hadn't allowed Nordstream 2 to be built Putin would have dropped his invasion plans seems a bit far-fetched.
In fact, imagining the counter factual where there was no attempt to engage Russia, probably the planned invasion would be happening just the same and we'd be hearing loads of people saying "this is all the fault of the Germans for refusing to engage with Russia so now they've got nothing to lose"
I think you are German, aren't you? So can I ask - how does "the nation's soul has been sold out for Russian gas" play with you? Is it a common view there too?
I'm interested because it's closing in on meme status for pundits over here. I think I've read or heard the phrase about 500 times just in the last couple of weeks.
No, I have acquired German citizenship.
People are familiar with the long-standing policy, it's called "Wandel durch Handel" and it goes a lot further than gas. German businesses, who directly employ 100s of thousands of Russians in Russia, have told the government they are worried about being able to pay their employees. These are the kinds of things being considered. Now, probably Germany should support all possible sanctions, and maybe will support SWIFT ejection eventually , but they are hardly the only country hesitating with sanctions of various kinds.
I don't know any Germans who think Germany has "sold its soul for gas", right now it's just anger with Putin, and fear of a big European war among people I know.
But obviously the whole Wandel durch Handel policy is now discredited. I don't think some of the moral indignation on PB is particularly well-informed or justified. Something like Wandel durch Handel has also been pursued by many countries in relations with lots of dictatorial regimes with varying degrees of success and failure, and usually with a big helping of self-interest, so again Germany is hardly some kind of outlier.
In this case it's not simply a case of trading with a dictatorial regime, but indirectly financing a military build up directed against European allies while relying on military protection from the US. It was extremely naive, and when the absurdity of the situation was pointed out by people like Trump, he was just sneered at.
Sure but like I said Germany is hardly unique.
It's a bit like people who will repeatedly condemn Israel above all other countries in the world. It smells off.
Germans are also far less concerned with discussing what Britain is doing wrong, than vice versa judging by the comments on here!
Come off it. He would be dropping the nukes on Kiev himself.
What an unbelievably childish and stupid comment from EPG. Straight out of the sixth form debating society playbook that has led us to where we are.
Indeed.
Trump would be telling the Ukrainians he'd get involved, so long as they dig up dirt on his political opponents for him.
German policy over the last decade is turning into a total and complete catastrophe. Trump, arrogant and insensitive as he is, saw that, and tried to warn them in the excerpt HYUFD quoted.
Oh but its all Trump's fault, right? delusional.
I specifically attacked Germany and Italy before for selling their souls and was inanely accused of anti European prejudice by Kinabalu and now you think I delusionally believe it's all about Trump.
How about no. Germany's policies for years have been an utter disaster. So was Trump. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Germany "selling their soul" for Russian gas. This is the sort of thing I mean. Not just you but tons of people expressing themselves like this.
I watched a doc the other day about the StalinRussia/NaziGermany conflict - the dense black core of WW2 militarily if anything can be described that way. It wasn't that long ago, really, and this terrible history (between those nations) weighs heavy. In Germany there is great guilt and sensitivity about it.
So, ok, Germany seeking to normalize relations with Russia, be friends, trading actively with them, the energy arrangements, all of this now stands revealed as a serious geopolitical mistake - but "selling their soul"? C'mon.
If it gets to the point where your financial reliance or commitments prevent you from doing what is morally right - either as a country or an individual then in my view you have indeed sold your soul.
Actually I would correct what I have just written since I don't believe in blaming a country for the actions of its transient Government. So I would say it is the German Government rather than the whole country which has sold its soul. One could also make similar claims about the actions of the UK Government on many things, except I am not sure that most of them ever had a soul to sell.
Fair enough, an important distinction. And I don't mean to labour the point since it's not to excuse Germany from doing what it ought to be doing in this crisis. Plus I'm sure there was self-interest in there when it comes to the links they've forged with Russia and which have become a problem now. It's just this "selling their soul" phrase which I find a bit of a jar. If we're talking souls I'd say WW2 guilt is integral to theirs and rather than selling it they've allowed it in this case to impair judgment.
I would credit that if it were - as you seemed previously to be claiming - a mistake that was admitted and ended once Putin's intentions became clear. It isn't.
Germany has persisted in refusing to allow the sale of weapons to Ukraine even from other countries, has refused to allow effective sanctions to be imposed on Russia and is generally hindering a unified response to Russian aggression. From what I can see the only reason they acceeded to stopping NordStream 2 progress was because the US threatened to blow up the damn thing if they didn't.
I don't blame the current Germans - either the people or the Government - for what happened in WW2. In the same way I don't blame the British, the US or the Arabs for slave trading 3 centuries ago. The past is very much a foreign country. They need to grow up a bit and stop using their history as an excuse for avoiding difficult decisions today. Or perhaps others need to stop using it as an excuse on their behalf.
Come off it. He would be dropping the nukes on Kiev himself.
What an unbelievably childish and stupid comment from EPG. Straight out of the sixth form debating society playbook that has led us to where we are.
Indeed.
Trump would be telling the Ukrainians he'd get involved, so long as they dig up dirt on his political opponents for him.
German policy over the last decade is turning into a total and complete catastrophe. Trump, arrogant and insensitive as he is, saw that, and tried to warn them in the excerpt HYUFD quoted.
Oh but its all Trump's fault, right? delusional.
I specifically attacked Germany and Italy before for selling their souls and was inanely accused of anti European prejudice by Kinabalu and now you think I delusionally believe it's all about Trump.
How about no. Germany's policies for years have been an utter disaster. So was Trump. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Germany "selling their soul" for Russian gas. This is the sort of thing I mean. Not just you but tons of people expressing themselves like this.
I watched a doc the other day about the StalinRussia/NaziGermany conflict - the dense black core of WW2 militarily if anything can be described that way. It wasn't that long ago, really, and this terrible history (between those nations) weighs heavy. In Germany there is great guilt and sensitivity about it.
So, ok, Germany seeking to normalize relations with Russia, be friends, trading actively with them, the energy arrangements, all of this now stands revealed as a serious geopolitical mistake - but "selling their soul"? C'mon.
Also, the idea that if only Germany hadn't allowed Nordstream 2 to be built Putin would have dropped his invasion plans seems a bit far-fetched.
In fact, imagining the counter factual where there was no attempt to engage Russia, probably the planned invasion would be happening just the same and we'd be hearing loads of people saying "this is all the fault of the Germans for refusing to engage with Russia so now they've got nothing to lose"
I think you are German, aren't you? So can I ask - how does "the nation's soul has been sold out for Russian gas" play with you? Is it a common view there too?
I'm interested because it's closing in on meme status for pundits over here. I think I've read or heard the phrase about 500 times just in the last couple of weeks.
No, I have acquired German citizenship.
People are familiar with the long-standing policy, it's called "Wandel durch Handel" and it goes a lot further than gas. German businesses, who directly employ 100s of thousands of Russians in Russia, have told the government they are worried about being able to pay their employees. These are the kinds of things being considered. Now, probably Germany should support all possible sanctions, and maybe will support SWIFT ejection eventually , but they are hardly the only country hesitating with sanctions of various kinds.
I don't know any Germans who think Germany has "sold its soul for gas", right now it's just anger with Putin, and fear of a big European war among people I know.
But obviously the whole Wandel durch Handel policy is now discredited. I don't think some of the moral indignation on PB is particularly well-informed or justified. Something like Wandel durch Handel has also been pursued by many countries in relations with lots of dictatorial regimes with varying degrees of success and failure, and usually with a big helping of self-interest, so again Germany is hardly some kind of outlier.
Germany also has a long standing policy of not selling arms to conflict zones, which is widely supported. One of the reasons for my dislike of the Merkel-led governments was their failure to uphold this policy (the SPD eventually stopped Germany exporting weapons to Saudi Arabia, which was a bit of an electoral issue here). So again Germans have a bit more understanding of the German policy of not exporting arms to Ukraine.
I have been told by Germans that the decision to rely on Russian gas was deliberate in that it was about making impossible for a conflict between Russia and Germany to work. Bind the countries so closely together that a fight was impossible....
Do you agree with that?
I'm not sure it was quite like that, but Wandel durch Handel was a deliberate policy wrt Russia.
But there's the other side, which is more like western countries buying lots of oil from Saudi Arabia. You could call it selling your soul, I suppose.
Come off it. He would be dropping the nukes on Kiev himself.
What an unbelievably childish and stupid comment from EPG. Straight out of the sixth form debating society playbook that has led us to where we are.
Indeed.
Trump would be telling the Ukrainians he'd get involved, so long as they dig up dirt on his political opponents for him.
German policy over the last decade is turning into a total and complete catastrophe. Trump, arrogant and insensitive as he is, saw that, and tried to warn them in the excerpt HYUFD quoted.
Oh but its all Trump's fault, right? delusional.
I specifically attacked Germany and Italy before for selling their souls and was inanely accused of anti European prejudice by Kinabalu and now you think I delusionally believe it's all about Trump.
How about no. Germany's policies for years have been an utter disaster. So was Trump. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Germany "selling their soul" for Russian gas. This is the sort of thing I mean. Not just you but tons of people expressing themselves like this.
I watched a doc the other day about the StalinRussia/NaziGermany conflict - the dense black core of WW2 militarily if anything can be described that way. It wasn't that long ago, really, and this terrible history (between those nations) weighs heavy. In Germany there is great guilt and sensitivity about it.
So, ok, Germany seeking to normalize relations with Russia, be friends, trading actively with them, the energy arrangements, all of this now stands revealed as a serious geopolitical mistake - but "selling their soul"? C'mon.
I once read that, as the Red Army advanced to Berlin, up to two million German women were raped by Russian soldiers.
The writer Vasily Grossman details the depressing familiarity of watching the unbuckling of belts and screaming of girls as columns of German refugees were overhauled by advancing soldiers.
Where's the Russian guilt? where's the Russia guilt over the immense suffering caused by oppressed people in the satellite states during the Warsaw pact years?
Given the opportunity Russians are just as cruel as anybody.
The violence and suffering in WW2 was off the scale and it was Germany who enabled the Nazis and unleashed the horror. It weighs on them still and imo this aspect to German decision-making shouldn't be forgotten or trivialized or too heavily lamented. That's the one and only point I'm making.
Comments
R4 dramatisations of 'great' literature can be a bit iffy, the recent Berlin Alexanderplatz being a case in point.
Illia Ponomarenko
@IAPonomarenko
Molotovs in Kyiv.
Waiting for Russian tanks.
https://twitter.com/IAPonomarenko/status/1497177195609010179
There’s a reason he’s chosen Ukraine. He wants to reunite “all the Russias” (if not as part of Russia as some form of sphere of influence or possibly confederation) and make it clear NATO is not expanding any further. Other ex-Soviet states may also be on the list. The Baltics are the point he’d strike at if he was really keen on testing NATO, but that’s a very different proposition than an invasion of Ukraine - they are EU and NATO members.
I don’t think he is so unhinged as to go there right now. The danger zone will be in a few years time, depending on what happens in Ukraine and how the world reacts.
A chuck of the Russian army is very effective - their artillery, for example. How big the useful bit is, compared to the mass of conscripts is hard to say.
Do you think it’s true, those who can afford a good lawyer can fill this in and get off with it? Surely the police will get to the truth, no matter how clever a lawyer, there only so much they can do answering this form for you to hide the truth?
I expect the ask will be for formal recognition by Ukraine of the Luhansk and Donbass republics (And thus ceeding territory) and a constitutional amendment that Ukraine will never join NATO.
Condemned by Coveney
https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/1497172344531521538?s=20&t=t3rzUMTvg12IxDIUla5mtg
https://twitter.com/simoncoveney/status/1497191786153795589?s=20&t=t3rzUMTvg12IxDIUla5mtg
"Germany reportedly refused to allow Estonia to send its German-made weapons to Ukraine. Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania pledged support to Kyiv against possible Russian aggression."
https://www.dw.com/en/germany-blocks-estonian-arms-exports-to-ukraine-report/a-60520988
8.Russian morale is lower than expected. Some units appear to have anticipated being met with grateful Ukrainian crowds instead of stiff opposition. 8/
https://twitter.com/realcynicalfox/status/1497143878360739840?s=21
But Lavrov is so drunk and stupid he probably will never spot it.
This is a media war. Memes and tiktoks of heroic defenders plus deserting conscripts plus protesting Russians are what will do for Putin. I am almost confident enough to call this as about peak Vlad.
I'm interested because it's closing in on meme status for pundits over here. I think I've read or heard the phrase about 500 times just in the last couple of weeks.
https://twitter.com/Barnes_Joe/status/1497194009038626842?
The future remains sharply contested.
Notes that China launched a war on India whilst the Cuba Missile Crisis was a convenient diversion.
If the police have evidence they can issue an FPN. But that could be challenged at which point I think it would go to court.
It depends what evidence the police have. Sending a questionnaire is an unusual way of investigating, IMO.
Wow! Getting seriously tough on them now then. 🙄
Wasn’t this done years ago? How many times down the years can they keep announcing this?
Meanwhile, Zelenskiy latest address has said:
* UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT ACCUSES EUROPE OF INSUFFICIENT REACTION, SLOW HELP TO UKRAINE
* UKRAINE’S ZELENSKIY SAYS RUSSIAN ASSAULT LIKE REPEAT OF WORLD WAR TWO UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT CALLS ON EUROPEAN CITIZENS TO PROTEST TO FORCE THEIR GOVERNMENTS TO MORE DECISIVELY
If you do not answer the questions, that is effectively a no comment interview. As a result, the prosecuting authority may commence a prosecution on the strength of available evidence, rather than just an FPN.
I believe that, in this case, Germany is refusing permission to on-sell/supply anything they sold to other countries, to Ukraine.
“The principle governing arms exports is always the same—whether they come directly from Germany or from third countries—and no permission has been issued at this stage… It is not possible to estimate the outcome of the process at this moment,” a German government official told the Wall Street Journal (WSJ). An Estonian official told the media outlet that his country hopes to soon get approval from Germany."
https://www.visiontimes.com/2022/01/22/germany-blocks-estonias-weapons-transfer-to-ukraine.html
Control of ongoing sales of such is a mechanism of control.
It's why Germany is able to stop us selling Eurofighters to Saudi Arabia, and how we stopped South Korea selling F-50 fighter aircraft to Argentina.
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/uk-blocks-sale-of-south-korean-fighter-jets-to-argentina/
It doesn’t bode well for justice being seen to be done or closure of this 😕
Germany did promise 5,000 helmets but then did not deliver them
How many people would be left in Ireland if all the English speakers were expelled?
https://rleighturner.com/russia-ukraine-war/
The longer the Russian army spends in Ukraine the more they'll surely come to realise this.
https://twitter.com/nseskuria/status/1497173675774255118?t=4wCqXPCOL0w750dZnfTN4Q&s=19
https://eurointegration.com.ua/news/2022/02/25/7134674/…
https://twitter.com/EuropeanPravda/status/1497203992660693000
That will complicate some Aeroflot flights….
https://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/europa/eu-sanktionen-121.html
So far they seem to be sticking with the 'few rotten apples & 99% heroes' line.
What do we make of this bit. Does Zelenskiy really want to surrender to neutrality in talks with Putin?
Volodymyr Zelenskiy’s recent comments as he called on Vladimir Putin to sit return to the negotiation table.
In a televised statement today, Zelenskiy said he is calling on the Russian leader to negotiate to put an end to the fighting.
Will Zelenskiy stay alive to allow Moscow to use him as a puppet? Or give himself both barrels like Allende. Or flee to Spain like Peron?
Allende shot himself rather than be used as a puppet. Will Zelenskiy Putin puppet and neutral Ukraine be the end game and some sort of closure? If so, it means the NATO position of not really helping, and the fact sanctions and other help has been rubbish is justified, and could have come from our intelligence suggesting Zelenskiy would end up doing this?
My prediction is Zelenskiy will be in Moscow having talks very soon.
Though I have to say that it is all very well to respect the great guilt and sensitivity of Germany and Russia between each other, but let's not forget what they sequentially did to the people of Ukraine at the relevant time.
Don't go far enough: 58%
Are about right: 15%
Go too far: 4%
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/02/25/are-sanctions-against-russia-tough-enough-britons?
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1497204013921718276
If so Cypress, Austria, Hungary are all irrelevant, as for Italy I don't think it would stick its neck out and veto if the other 6 G7 nations where determined.
But the Belgian government is loathe to do that without the back of the rest of Europe - see the Iranian exclusion from SWIFT.
Bruno Maçães
@MacaesBruno
Heard from two people this morning that the US is privately opposed to excluding Russia from Swift. Particularly jarring and offensive to see Biden argue in public that it’s the Europeans stopping him
https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1497203810120441856
claimed it only wanted peace
Does PB really know the answer on this one?
I imagine China is watching this and thinking that it doesn't have to worry about our reaction to an invasion of Taiwan. They only have to make it across the Straight.
We desperately need to start thinking ahead instead of squabbling over the minutiae of inadequate reactions.
Is any politician seeing the bigger picture here?
People are familiar with the long-standing policy, it's called "Wandel durch Handel" and it goes a lot further than gas. German businesses, who directly employ 100s of thousands of Russians in Russia, have told the government they are worried about being able to pay their employees. These are the kinds of things being considered. Now, probably Germany should support all possible sanctions, and maybe will support SWIFT ejection eventually , but they are hardly the only country hesitating with sanctions of various kinds.
I don't know any Germans who think Germany has "sold its soul for gas", right now it's just anger with Putin, and fear of a big European war among people I know.
But obviously the whole Wandel durch Handel policy is now discredited. I don't think some of the moral indignation on PB is particularly well-informed or justified. Something like Wandel durch Handel has also been pursued by many countries in relations with lots of dictatorial regimes with varying degrees of success and failure, and usually with a big helping of self-interest, so again Germany is hardly some kind of outlier.
Germany also has a long standing policy of not selling arms to conflict zones, which is widely supported. One of the reasons for my dislike of the Merkel-led governments was their failure to uphold this policy (the SPD eventually stopped Germany exporting weapons to Saudi Arabia, which was a bit of an electoral issue here). So again Germans have a bit more understanding of the German policy of not exporting arms to Ukraine.
Do you agree with that?
But a counter argument to that is well expressed here:
https://twitter.com/eugene_finkel/status/1497155821049950241
By allowing some countries to veto effective sanctions, it makes Europe - and the West - weaker.
It is not just Germany’s Wandel durch Handel that is discredited.
No wonder Tusk is furious, the Baltics scathing, and Ukraine despairing.
None of this excuses London’s own failings, but this is a monumental error by the EU, and there will be ramifications.
It's a bit like people who will repeatedly condemn Israel above all other countries in the world. It smells off.
Germans are also far less concerned with discussing what Britain is doing wrong, than vice versa judging by the comments on here!
Germany has persisted in refusing to allow the sale of weapons to Ukraine even from other countries, has refused to allow effective sanctions to be imposed on Russia and is generally hindering a unified response to Russian aggression. From what I can see the only reason they acceeded to stopping NordStream 2 progress was because the US threatened to blow up the damn thing if they didn't.
I don't blame the current Germans - either the people or the Government - for what happened in WW2. In the same way I don't blame the British, the US or the Arabs for slave trading 3 centuries ago. The past is very much a foreign country. They need to grow up a bit and stop using their history as an excuse for avoiding difficult decisions today. Or perhaps others need to stop using it as an excuse on their behalf.
But there's the other side, which is more like western countries buying lots of oil from Saudi Arabia. You could call it selling your soul, I suppose.