Powerful front pages following Putin’s aggression – politicalbetting.com

MattW said:

WhisperingOracle said:

MattW said:

WhisperingOracle said:

MarqueeMark said:

Damn gutsy people, the Ukrainians. If their resistance hastens the end of Putin in the Kremlin, then the world will owe them a huge debt of gratitude.

They stand at the opposite end of the spectrum of regard than those spineless, self-centred leaders within the EU. Today more than ever, I am relieved we are now unshackled from that moral vacuum.

Macron has performed better than Johnson, I would say personally. I can't see what lasting impact Johnson and Truss with all their arm waving have made, anywhere in this crisis.

Biden has provided accurate intelligence ; Macron has kept a channel of communication open. That's about it, as far as I can see.

How so?

When Russia invaded Ukraine last time France was reluctant to stop selling amphibious warfare ships worth nearly two billion Euro to Russia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistral-class_amphibious_assault_ship#Russian_purchase

Two weeks ago Macron was trying to make Ukraine back down and agree to some of the Russian demands:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/02/08/ukraine-pressure-bow-russian-demands-meeting-emmanuel-macron/

The last I saw this week was that he was claiming that Putin had been "duplicitous".

He sounded like a Mark who had only just noticed he'd been had.

(Yes, I am skeptical where all things Marcon are concerned.)

But he's also carved out an independent channel of communication, which remains crucial when you're dealing with a madman. I'm not sure what Johnson's done distinct from the US that will leave any lasting legacy on how this conflict works out, by comparison.

This also depends on what happens next, ofcourse. Overall I think he's achieved little that's distinct so far, though.

What good is an "independent" channel of communication, when he communicates at variance with the West's general position, and portrays that Putin's interlocutors are going to tolerate an invasion?

If push comes to shove, independent communication are what places such as Switzerland are for.

StuartDickson said:

Champions League final moved from Russia to Paris.

StuartDickson said:

Champions League final moved from Russia to Paris.

Leon said:

Genuinely tear-jerking short thread by a guy who walked from Ukraine to Poland. My god. We must help


https://twitter.com/ukrainelive2022/status/1497106536828710912?s=21

ydoethur said:

StuartDickson said:

rottenborough said:

Dura_Ace said:

MattW said:

StuartDickson said:

JACK_W said:

Bullies and tyrants are only crushed when decisive and punitive action is taken against them.

NATO should admit Ukraine with effect from midnight tonight.

NATO admitting Russia more likely.

I'll go with Finland.

Bosnia are next in the queue but Serbia will probably invade them to stop it happening.

Yep. It will kick off there any day now under cover of all the rest of the mess in Ukraine. Unless Putin orders his puppets in Balkans to hang fire for some reason.

Hmmm… remind me, who were Tito and Stalin allied with? Must have been right evil bastards?

Tito was never really 'allied' with anybody. He occasionally worked with other people when it suited his purposes.

He was also the author of one of three letters Stalin kept by him at all times, presumably because he was amused by it. The gist ran:

'Joe, stop sending those assassins of yours. They're useless fuckers and I'm getting bored of shooting them after they've cocked up. If you keep doing it, I'll send one of my teams to deal with you, and I won't need to send another.'

another_richard said:

ydoethur said:

StuartDickson said:

rottenborough said:

Dura_Ace said:

MattW said:

StuartDickson said:

JACK_W said:

Bullies and tyrants are only crushed when decisive and punitive action is taken against them.

NATO should admit Ukraine with effect from midnight tonight.

NATO admitting Russia more likely.

I'll go with Finland.

Bosnia are next in the queue but Serbia will probably invade them to stop it happening.

Yep. It will kick off there any day now under cover of all the rest of the mess in Ukraine. Unless Putin orders his puppets in Balkans to hang fire for some reason.

Hmmm… remind me, who were Tito and Stalin allied with? Must have been right evil bastards?

Tito was never really 'allied' with anybody. He occasionally worked with other people when it suited his purposes.

He was also the author of one of three letters Stalin kept by him at all times, presumably because he was amused by it. The gist ran:

'Joe, stop sending those assassins of yours. They're useless fuckers and I'm getting bored of shooting them after they've cocked up. If you keep doing it, I'll send one of my teams to deal with you, and I won't need to send another.'

But did Tito actually have any/many people assassinated ?

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Sometimes war provides a moment of clarity. What this war has clarified is the idiocy of the Putin worshipers in the West. This group congregates on the far Left and the far Right. Those on the Left are perhaps more easily dealt with. Their idiocy isn't driven by their feelings towards Putin and Putinism primarily, but by an unbalanced hatred of Western capitalism and Western foreign policy, a bizarre inability to comprehend that, wile we are not perfect, we are not always the bad guy.
I find those on the Right more concerning, because their Putin worship seems to be more genuine. They genuinely admire his strong man posturing, his muscular defence of Christian Europe, his attacks on Western decadence, Wokeness and the like. As though it is not precisely that mindset that has led him to this hideous, murderous assault on Ukraine.
I hope that this grotesque admiration of this brutal, limited man and his toxic ideology will be the first casualty of this war.

ydoethur said:

another_richard said:

ydoethur said:

StuartDickson said:

rottenborough said:

Dura_Ace said:

MattW said:

StuartDickson said:

JACK_W said:

Bullies and tyrants are only crushed when decisive and punitive action is taken against them.

NATO should admit Ukraine with effect from midnight tonight.

NATO admitting Russia more likely.

I'll go with Finland.

Bosnia are next in the queue but Serbia will probably invade them to stop it happening.

Yep. It will kick off there any day now under cover of all the rest of the mess in Ukraine. Unless Putin orders his puppets in Balkans to hang fire for some reason.

Hmmm… remind me, who were Tito and Stalin allied with? Must have been right evil bastards?

Tito was never really 'allied' with anybody. He occasionally worked with other people when it suited his purposes.

He was also the author of one of three letters Stalin kept by him at all times, presumably because he was amused by it. The gist ran:

'Joe, stop sending those assassins of yours. They're useless fuckers and I'm getting bored of shooting them after they've cocked up. If you keep doing it, I'll send one of my teams to deal with you, and I won't need to send another.'

But did Tito actually have any/many people assassinated ?

I don't think it was fun being an ethnic German in Yugoslavia in the mid 1940s, of which there were quite a lot not linked to Nazism.

As for political enemies that I will admit I don't know.

WhisperingOracle said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Nigelb said:

Mexicanpete said:

ydoethur said:

Mexicanpete said:

Andy_JS said:

StuartDickson said:

Russian troops enter Kiev.

Why wasn't more done to defend Ukraine after Crimea in 2014?

Russian oil, handy dirrty Russian money. Trump. A disbelief that Putin would go the whole 9 yards.

Western leaders over the last 15 or so years can look at hemselves in the mirror and resign themselves that the hey could have averted this by some means or another

Obama was in power in 2014!

And? I am blaming Western Leaders for the last fifteen years. Obama,, one could argue doing nothing in 2014, facitated the Putin backed Trump victory. Keep up!

Agreed.

Though it's worth remembering that Putin's propaganda was far more effective back in 2014. Quite a few were arguing on his behalf that Crimea really was Russian anyway, and that it's being part of Ukraine was an anomaly. And some even accepted the tale of a popular uprising aided by the Russians rather than an armed land grab.

What's happening now is the destruction of a democracy and unprovoked military occupation of an independent state. That's obvious even to Russia's propagandised citizens.

Sir Alex Younger (ex head of MI6) on R4 this am had an interesting take on Putin, that he had in fact changed over the years and current events are not the culmination of some decades-long strategy but the outcome of Putin’s current mindset. I guess 2014 could be seen as the first symptom of the ‘new’ Putin. He also seemed to think VVP had misjudged this situation and may come a cropper. Hope springs eternal..

I woud personally see 2008, and the South Ossetia business as the first conclusive sign of the "new" Putin. Disillusioned with the West, quietly seething about Iraq and his concerns about NATO being sidelined, and coming under pressure from his old Chechen friends to revert to authoritarian leadership. It was also exactly around 2008 that press freedom in Russia took a sudden dive, and a few months later the journalist Anna Politovskaya was murdered, probably by his henchmen from the Chechnya conflict again. The pattern seems to have been increasingly set after that.

It was also in 2008 that year that he released "learn Judo with Vladimir Putin." The cult of personality was underway.

Theuniondivvie said:

HYUFD said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Lol, Ukraine's tragedy is a Scottish Yoon's opportunity to whine about the Paddys.

Obviously the 2 are not directly comparable.

However nonetheless, the Republic of Ireland now calls itself Ireland thus making a claim to Northern Ireland. Throughout the Brexit talks the Republic of Ireland also worked with the EU to bring Northern Ireland into its orbit.

The main difference is Ireland would not invade Northern Ireland as Russia invaded Ukraine, not least as the UK has a bigger militarily than the Republic of Ireland has

It’s like the GFA never happened. Of course for some it never did.

https://twitter.com/martinmcnally53/status/1496809403437228037?s=21

Peter_the_Punter said:

"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."

How you going to find a neutral venue?

Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.

It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.

Malmesbury said:

another_richard said:

ydoethur said:

StuartDickson said:

rottenborough said:

Dura_Ace said:

MattW said:

StuartDickson said:

JACK_W said:

Bullies and tyrants are only crushed when decisive and punitive action is taken against them.

NATO should admit Ukraine with effect from midnight tonight.

NATO admitting Russia more likely.

I'll go with Finland.

Bosnia are next in the queue but Serbia will probably invade them to stop it happening.

Yep. It will kick off there any day now under cover of all the rest of the mess in Ukraine. Unless Putin orders his puppets in Balkans to hang fire for some reason.

Hmmm… remind me, who were Tito and Stalin allied with? Must have been right evil bastards?

Tito was never really 'allied' with anybody. He occasionally worked with other people when it suited his purposes.

He was also the author of one of three letters Stalin kept by him at all times, presumably because he was amused by it. The gist ran:

'Joe, stop sending those assassins of yours. They're useless fuckers and I'm getting bored of shooting them after they've cocked up. If you keep doing it, I'll send one of my teams to deal with you, and I won't need to send another.'

But did Tito actually have any/many people assassinated ?

Yes - lots.

And a nice little program of expelling anyone guilt of being a bit Italian from Yugoslavia - ethnic cleansing. Tidying up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rijeka etc.....

Leon said:

Dura_Ace said:

StillWaters said:

we are better at HUMINT.

How do you know this?

Because the rest of us realised that Putin would not be averted from war by the SHEER CULTURAL POWER OF THE CRÈME BRÛLÉE

swing_voter said:

WhisperingOracle said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Nigelb said:

Mexicanpete said:

ydoethur said:

Mexicanpete said:

Andy_JS said:

StuartDickson said:

Russian troops enter Kiev.

Why wasn't more done to defend Ukraine after Crimea in 2014?

Russian oil, handy dirrty Russian money. Trump. A disbelief that Putin would go the whole 9 yards.

Western leaders over the last 15 or so years can look at hemselves in the mirror and resign themselves that the hey could have averted this by some means or another

Obama was in power in 2014!

And? I am blaming Western Leaders for the last fifteen years. Obama,, one could argue doing nothing in 2014, facitated the Putin backed Trump victory. Keep up!

Agreed.

Though it's worth remembering that Putin's propaganda was far more effective back in 2014. Quite a few were arguing on his behalf that Crimea really was Russian anyway, and that it's being part of Ukraine was an anomaly. And some even accepted the tale of a popular uprising aided by the Russians rather than an armed land grab.

What's happening now is the destruction of a democracy and unprovoked military occupation of an independent state. That's obvious even to Russia's propagandised citizens.

Sir Alex Younger (ex head of MI6) on R4 this am had an interesting take on Putin, that he had in fact changed over the years and current events are not the culmination of some decades-long strategy but the outcome of Putin’s current mindset. I guess 2014 could be seen as the first symptom of the ‘new’ Putin. He also seemed to think VVP had misjudged this situation and may come a cropper. Hope springs eternal..

I woud personally see 2008, and the South Ossetia business as the first conclusive sign of the "new" Putin. Disillusioned with the West, quietly seething about Iraq and his concerns about NATO being sidelined, and coming under pressure from his old Chechen friends to revert to authoritarian leadership. It was also exactly around 2008 that press freedom in Russia took a sudden dive, and a few months later the journalist Anna Politovskaya was murdered, probably by his henchmen from the Chechnya conflict again. The pattern seems to have been increasingly set after that.

It was also in 2008 that year that he released "learn Judo with Vladimir Putin." The cult of personality was underway.

June 1999 NATO troops were beaten to Pristina airport by Russian Paratroopers in Kosovo, Russia was highly critical of the Kosovo intervention.... several weeks after that event Putin became Russian PM (under an ailing President) thats when the relationship soured

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Sometimes war provides a moment of clarity. What this war has clarified is the idiocy of the Putin worshipers in the West. This group congregates on the far Left and the far Right. Those on the Left are perhaps more easily dealt with. Their idiocy isn't driven by their feelings towards Putin and Putinism primarily, but by an unbalanced hatred of Western capitalism and Western foreign policy, a bizarre inability to comprehend that, wile we are not perfect, we are not always the bad guy.
I find those on the Right more concerning, because their Putin worship seems to be more genuine. They genuinely admire his strong man posturing, his muscular defence of Christian Europe, his attacks on Western decadence, Wokeness and the like. As though it is not precisely that mindset that has led him to this hideous, murderous assault on Ukraine.
I hope that this grotesque admiration of this brutal, limited man and his toxic ideology will be the first casualty of this war.

Leon said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."

How you going to find a neutral venue?

Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.

It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.

This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard

Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Leon said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."

How you going to find a neutral venue?

Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.

It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.

This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard

Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade

I cannot hate the Russian people, they are victims in this as well

We must concentrate all our energy to rid the world of Putin and his acolytes

Fairliered said:

MattW said:

Leon said:

Dura_Ace said:

StillWaters said:

we are better at HUMINT.

How do you know this?

Because the rest of us realised that Putin would not be averted from war by the SHEER CULTURAL POWER OF THE CRÈME BRÛLÉE

Aldi Creme Brulee (sod off with your poncy accented affectations) is remarkably good...

If Putin is captured, we could make Cock au Vin, although it would only be a small helping.

Omnium said:

Leon said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."

How you going to find a neutral venue?

Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.

It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.

This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard

Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade

I think we can legitimately hold the Russian people responsible for the action of their leaders. I don't see any reason to let them off the hook so easily.

rottenborough said:

Not sure why the markets have rebounded a little this morning.

Peter_the_Punter said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Leon said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."

How you going to find a neutral venue?

Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.

It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.

This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard

Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade

I cannot hate the Russian people, they are victims in this as well

We must concentrate all our energy to rid the world of Putin and his acolytes

When did Russia ever have even half-decent Government?

You'd have to be going back to the Tsars and my knowledge of them is very thin.

WhisperingOracle said:

I woud personally see 2008, and the South Ossetia business as the first conclusive sign of the "new" Putin. Disillusioned with the West, quietly seething about Iraq and his concerns about NATO being sidelined, and coming under pressure from his old Chechen friends to revert to authoritarian leadership. It was also exactly around 2008 that press freedom in Russia took a sudden dive, and a few months later the journalist Anna Politovskaya was murdered, probably by his henchmen from the Chechnya conflict again. The pattern seems to have been increasingly set after that.

It was also in 2008 that year that he released "learn Judo with Vladimir Putin." The cult of personality was underway.

Omnium said:

Wulfrun_Phil said:

Omnium said:

Leon said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."

How you going to find a neutral venue?

Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.

It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.

This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard

Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade

I think we can legitimately hold the Russian people responsible for the action of their leaders. I don't see any reason to let them off the hook so easily.

No, Russia is not a democracy, and it is unlikely that Putin would be in power now if it was. He does not have widespread popular support in Russia for his actions. I think we can only legitimately hold Russian people with wealth and power responsible for the action of their leaders. I do not think that we can hold responsible those brave Russians who are protesting today at the actions of their regime.

I understand, and I certainly don't have anything but goodwill towards the Russian people. Nonetheless I still think that we should look to make life hard for all of them. (I admit the parallels with Iran, for example, isn't encouraging)

StuartDickson said:

YBarddCwsc said:

WhisperingOracle said:

algarkirk said:

NickPalmer said:

Sean_F said:

Leon said:

northern_monkey said:

Bannon. What a guy.

I genuinely don’t understand this mad Republican admiration for Putin and his deeds

Yes I think Putin is right on Wokeness, I also think Mussolini handled the Mafia well and Hitler was great at flag design. I can still see that they are all malign tyrants who generally do - or did - bad stuff.

Farage is the same. And Salmond. Some weird fanboi worship of brutal power. Is that it? Is that all it is?

Putin pretends to be a Christian, is fervently nationalistic and hates gays. That's enough.

Yes, as with Trump, many people don't really follow the details - they decide on superficial evidence if someone is their sort of guy and then dismiss criticism as biased or made-up. It's like left-wingers who thought Pol Pot was a good guy until the Vietnamese - hardly right-wingers themselves - decided they'd had enough of him. And right-wingers who deplored Vietnam's intervention because they were those commies who'd caused so much trouble for the US. See Alastair's piece for more on this sort of thinking.

Most people are more or less rational, and there does come a point where they do say hell, I can't support THIS. Most of the left is now vehemently anti-Putin - all the MPs who signed the equivocal Stop the War statement have now withdrawn their support, and McDonnell said last night that he's helping organise a demo outside the Russian Embassy tomorrow. Conversely, I know Republicans who remain viscerally anti-Democrat but simply will not tolerate the idea of voting for Trump.

The extreme left in the Labour party who have supported STW and signed up to all their letters and petitions have for years agitated on the basis that almost everything aggressive about Russia is the fault of the USA, NATO and the UK.

Such as this on 22 Feb - three days ago


This dispute could and should be resolved peacefully, and that remains the only basis for a lasting settlement, rather than the imposition of military solutions. That it has not been resolved is not, however, the responsibility of the Russian or Ukrainian governments alone.

The conflict is the product of thirty years of failed policies, including the expansion of NATO and US hegemony at the expense of other countries as well as major wars of aggression by the USA, Britain and other NATO powers which have undermined international law and the United Nations.

The tragedy is that there are elements here that definitely have some basis, but they can't see the present imperative. The West definitely made errors that were not just defensive but also offensive, but Putin has been off on a course after that which was possibly unrecoverable for as much as 15 years now. Farage also doesn't know what he's talking about in mentioning 2014.

I think that is fair. The causes of the Second World War were set in the Treaty of Versailles, though it needed a Hitler to set Europe on fire.

The causes of this conflict go back to the West's response to the fall of the Soviet Union, though it needed a Putin to set Ukraine on fire.

Yes. The West made a series of dreadful errors in the years following the fall of the Wall.

rottenborough said:

Not sure why the markets have rebounded a little this morning.

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Punter, one of the few things I know of the Tsars is that Nicholas II was hamstrung by his father deliberately not teaching him how to rule until he was older. Except his father died sooner than he anticipated...

malcolmg said:

Theuniondivvie said:

There’s been an intervention.

https://twitter.com/alexcrawfordsky/status/1497118565421527041?s=21

LOL, how low can you get when even the Taliban think you are a wrong un

Farooq said:

state_go_away said:

its a depressing fact of modern life and media that we have short attention spans - This forum was full of ideas and angst when the Taleban captured Afghanistan - now nobody gives it a moments thought (even on here) and its what only a few months since that ?.Ukraine will go the same way . Life and politics moves on very quickly in the 21st century

Sorry, I didn't make it past "modern life". I hope the rest of the post was good though.

Peter_the_Punter said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Leon said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."

How you going to find a neutral venue?

Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.

It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.

This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard

Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade

I cannot hate the Russian people, they are victims in this as well

We must concentrate all our energy to rid the world of Putin and his acolytes

When did Russia ever have even half-decent Government?

You'd have to be going back to the Tsars and my knowledge of them is very thin.

Dura_Ace said:

Omnium said:

Wulfrun_Phil said:

Omnium said:

Leon said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."

How you going to find a neutral venue?

Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.

It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.

This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard

Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade

I think we can legitimately hold the Russian people responsible for the action of their leaders. I don't see any reason to let them off the hook so easily.

No, Russia is not a democracy, and it is unlikely that Putin would be in power now if it was. He does not have widespread popular support in Russia for his actions. I think we can only legitimately hold Russian people with wealth and power responsible for the action of their leaders. I do not think that we can hold responsible those brave Russians who are protesting today at the actions of their regime.

I understand, and I certainly don't have anything but goodwill towards the Russian people. Nonetheless I still think that we should look to make life hard for all of them. (I admit the parallels with Iran, for example, isn't encouraging)

It would be hard to find a government and nation more structurally, intellectually and temperamentally suited to bypassing sanctions than Russia. Just about anybody in a position of any power is a scheming criminal to start with.

another_richard said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Leon said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."

How you going to find a neutral venue?

Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.

It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.

This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard

Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade

I cannot hate the Russian people, they are victims in this as well

We must concentrate all our energy to rid the world of Putin and his acolytes

When did Russia ever have even half-decent Government?

You'd have to be going back to the Tsars and my knowledge of them is very thin.

Aren't the Czars which are held in high regard the military expansionist ones - Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Catherine the Great ?

ydoethur said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Leon said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."

How you going to find a neutral venue?

Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.

It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.

This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard

Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade

I cannot hate the Russian people, they are victims in this as well

We must concentrate all our energy to rid the world of Putin and his acolytes

When did Russia ever have even half-decent Government?

You'd have to be going back to the Tsars and my knowledge of them is very thin.

Most of them were pretty shit as well. About the only ones who were half decent were Alexander II, Catherine II and Peter the Great - and the last two were a right nasty pair who just happened to be competent rulers. Alexander II, meanwhile, tried his best but was a bit of a muppet. Unforgettably, he was assassinated when he shouted out loud that he was fine and perfectly safe following the first attempt, causing the assassin to throw a second bomb which worked.

another_richard said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Leon said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

"Russian and Ukrainian clubs and national teams competing in Uefa competitions will be required to play their home matches at neutral venues until further notice."

How you going to find a neutral venue?

Everybody hates Russia, everyone is behind Ukraine. Wherever you put it, the crowds will be 100% against the former and for the latter.

It reminds me of a match Wales played against the old USSR many years ago in one of the Southern provinces of the Soviet Union. Goodness knows why it was played there but since most of the Soviet team was, typically, from Moscow, the locals were four-square behind the Welsh. The stadium was packed. The Welsh could not have had better support if it had been Ninian Park.

This is making me hate Russia and Russians. And I’ve always liked Russia and Russians. I know we must divorce the government from the people but sometimes it is hard

Dictators are shite. Democracy is better. Such simple truths, that must be relearned with difficulty, every decade

I cannot hate the Russian people, they are victims in this as well

We must concentrate all our energy to rid the world of Putin and his acolytes

When did Russia ever have even half-decent Government?

You'd have to be going back to the Tsars and my knowledge of them is very thin.

Aren't the Czars which are held in high regard the military expansionist ones - Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Catherine the Great ?

Dura_Ace said:

Pulpstar said:

Dura_Ace said:

rottenborough said:

Not sure why the markets have rebounded a little this morning.

It's looking like it's going to be a short war.

Hold on didn't the Ukrainians retake the key airfield or some such ?

Who the fuck knows what's going on. The Ukranians are completely overmatched in every way though and getting fuck all help of any worth.

StuartDickson said:

YBarddCwsc said:

WhisperingOracle said:

algarkirk said:

NickPalmer said:

Sean_F said:

Leon said:

northern_monkey said:

Bannon. What a guy.

I genuinely don’t understand this mad Republican admiration for Putin and his deeds

Yes I think Putin is right on Wokeness, I also think Mussolini handled the Mafia well and Hitler was great at flag design. I can still see that they are all malign tyrants who generally do - or did - bad stuff.

Farage is the same. And Salmond. Some weird fanboi worship of brutal power. Is that it? Is that all it is?

Putin pretends to be a Christian, is fervently nationalistic and hates gays. That's enough.

Yes, as with Trump, many people don't really follow the details - they decide on superficial evidence if someone is their sort of guy and then dismiss criticism as biased or made-up. It's like left-wingers who thought Pol Pot was a good guy until the Vietnamese - hardly right-wingers themselves - decided they'd had enough of him. And right-wingers who deplored Vietnam's intervention because they were those commies who'd caused so much trouble for the US. See Alastair's piece for more on this sort of thinking.

Most people are more or less rational, and there does come a point where they do say hell, I can't support THIS. Most of the left is now vehemently anti-Putin - all the MPs who signed the equivocal Stop the War statement have now withdrawn their support, and McDonnell said last night that he's helping organise a demo outside the Russian Embassy tomorrow. Conversely, I know Republicans who remain viscerally anti-Democrat but simply will not tolerate the idea of voting for Trump.

The extreme left in the Labour party who have supported STW and signed up to all their letters and petitions have for years agitated on the basis that almost everything aggressive about Russia is the fault of the USA, NATO and the UK.

Such as this on 22 Feb - three days ago


This dispute could and should be resolved peacefully, and that remains the only basis for a lasting settlement, rather than the imposition of military solutions. That it has not been resolved is not, however, the responsibility of the Russian or Ukrainian governments alone.

The conflict is the product of thirty years of failed policies, including the expansion of NATO and US hegemony at the expense of other countries as well as major wars of aggression by the USA, Britain and other NATO powers which have undermined international law and the United Nations.

The tragedy is that there are elements here that definitely have some basis, but they can't see the present imperative. The West definitely made errors that were not just defensive but also offensive, but Putin has been off on a course after that which was possibly unrecoverable for as much as 15 years now. Farage also doesn't know what he's talking about in mentioning 2014.

I think that is fair. The causes of the Second World War were set in the Treaty of Versailles, though it needed a Hitler to set Europe on fire.

The causes of this conflict go back to the West's response to the fall of the Soviet Union, though it needed a Putin to set Ukraine on fire.

Yes. The West made a series of dreadful errors in the years following the fall of the Wall.

Wulfrun_Phil said:

WhisperingOracle said:

algarkirk said:

NickPalmer said:

Sean_F said:

Leon said:

northern_monkey said:

Bannon. What a guy.

I genuinely don’t understand this mad Republican admiration for Putin and his deeds

Yes I think Putin is right on Wokeness, I also think Mussolini handled the Mafia well and Hitler was great at flag design. I can still see that they are all malign tyrants who generally do - or did - bad stuff.

Farage is the same. And Salmond. Some weird fanboi worship of brutal power. Is that it? Is that all it is?

Putin pretends to be a Christian, is fervently nationalistic and hates gays. That's enough.

Yes, as with Trump, many people don't really follow the details - they decide on superficial evidence if someone is their sort of guy and then dismiss criticism as biased or made-up. It's like left-wingers who thought Pol Pot was a good guy until the Vietnamese - hardly right-wingers themselves - decided they'd had enough of him. And right-wingers who deplored Vietnam's intervention because they were those commies who'd caused so much trouble for the US. See Alastair's piece for more on this sort of thinking.

Most people are more or less rational, and there does come a point where they do say hell, I can't support THIS. Most of the left is now vehemently anti-Putin - all the MPs who signed the equivocal Stop the War statement have now withdrawn their support, and McDonnell said last night that he's helping organise a demo outside the Russian Embassy tomorrow. Conversely, I know Republicans who remain viscerally anti-Democrat but simply will not tolerate the idea of voting for Trump.

The extreme left in the Labour party who have supported STW and signed up to all their letters and petitions have for years agitated on the basis that almost everything aggressive about Russia is the fault of the USA, NATO and the UK.

Such as this on 22 Feb - three days ago


This dispute could and should be resolved peacefully, and that remains the only basis for a lasting settlement, rather than the imposition of military solutions. That it has not been resolved is not, however, the responsibility of the Russian or Ukrainian governments alone.

The conflict is the product of thirty years of failed policies, including the expansion of NATO and US hegemony at the expense of other countries as well as major wars of aggression by the USA, Britain and other NATO powers which have undermined international law and the United Nations.

The tragedy is that there are elements here that definitely have some basis, but they can't see the present imperative. The West definitely made errors that were not just defensive but also offensive, but Putin has been off on a course after that which was possibly unrecoverable for as much as 15 years now. Farage also doesn't know what he's talking about in mentioning 2014.

No, in the light of this week's events it is very clear that the likes of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland were justified in seeking the benefit of collective security within NATO membership, and NATO was right to extend their security guarantee accordingly, because had they not those states would clearly be next on Putin's list. Just as they were on Stalin's list when they were last invaded by Russia in 1939/40. It is not about Western "hegemony", it is about giving democratic states the right to peacefully exist through agreements that guarantee their security against a hostile expansionist dictatorship.