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Poll suggests that the LAB lead would be just 3% with PM Sunak – politicalbetting.com

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  • We'll do a bespoke deal, one that is far simpler than the Turkish one thanks to our total alignment with the EEA. We agree to drop all our red tape, they reciprocate, we mutually agree future arbitration should we diverge in the future. Which we won't.

    Done.
    We would neither need nor benefit from any sort of Customs Union with the EU. The EFTA countries get on perfectly well without one. Indeed the benefit of it to Turkey is marginal at best and the only reason they persist is their hope of eventual admission to the EU. They have, on a number of occasions discussed ending the customs arrangements because they are so bad for Turkish trade and it is only the carrot of EU membership that keeps them in.
  • We'll do a bespoke deal, one that is far simpler than the Turkish one thanks to our total alignment with the EEA. We agree to drop all our red tape, they reciprocate, we mutually agree future arbitration should we diverge in the future. Which we won't.

    Done.
    If it was only that simple it would be the compromise that is needed
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,159

    COVID Summary

    Lots of partial data. The underlying situation is that the

    - Cases *seem* to be still slowing down in increase.
    - Admissions are heading up, very strongly in London.
    - Deaths are still going down.

    image

    Thanks again for all the graphs. I usually make my own, but away from the work laptop...

    Just to highlight that the nosediving Scotland figures are a result of much later reporting up here.

    And to reiterate that there are significant delays on PCR results in Scotland, both anecdotally (family) and in what Leitch had been saying.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,942
    Did we ever answer the question of whether omicron requires ventilation at all? Am concerned people are putting too much store on this metric for a strain which doesn't seem to affect the lungs.
  • pigeon said:

    With the caveat that all London numbers will, presumably, need to be corrected to allow for higher vaccine refusal rates, before we can use them to attempt to project the progress of Omicron elsewhere?
    London's high vaccine refusal is an utter disgrace
  • We would neither need nor benefit from any sort of Customs Union with the EU. The EFTA countries get on perfectly well without one. Indeed the benefit of it to Turkey is marginal at best and the only reason they persist is their hope of eventual admission to the EU. They have, on a number of occasions discussed ending the customs arrangements because they are so bad for Turkish trade and it is only the carrot of EU membership that keeps them in.
    We are about to slam the door shut on viable food imports and exports. The paperwork changes coming in on Saturday are going to do Bad Things. Being able to remove all of these customs checks is very much something we need and will benefit from.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,226
    Eabhal said:

    Thanks again for all the graphs. I usually make my own, but away from the work laptop...

    Just to highlight that the nosediving Scotland figures are a result of much later reporting up here.

    And to reiterate that there are significant delays on PCR results in Scotland, both anecdotally (family) and in what Leitch had been saying.
    There's very little data for Scotland overall at the moment. The 4th of Jam is is going to be quite the Murder Tuesday, I reckon.
  • If it was only that simple it would be the compromise that is needed
    This administration can't make that compromise, but its successor can. Whether that is Sunak or Starmer. As with Covid there as so many glaring things to deal with that the Don't Look Up! mentality of the remaining spartans in the '22 won't be enough to stop Sunak.

    Remember that cutting Red Tape, armies of Bureaucrats and Costs on Business is what the Tory party used to be about, with decades-long battles fought to abolish all of those. that they have piled all of them back on hugely, with no purpose or benefit is surely an aberation that will pass.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    We'll do a bespoke deal, one that is far simpler than the Turkish one thanks to our total alignment with the EEA. We agree to drop all our red tape, they reciprocate, we mutually agree future arbitration should we diverge in the future. Which we won't.

    Done.
    And then the French push through an EU regulation designed to hit the UK.

    Let’s say that any car manufactured needs an emissions certificate issued in Poitiers* and can’t be sold until it gets one.

    And we can’t do anything about it.

    * chosen for a reason.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,159
    dixiedean said:

    Did we ever answer the question of whether omicron requires ventilation at all? Am concerned people are putting too much store on this metric for a strain which doesn't seem to affect the lungs.

    If it doesn't affect the lungs then it's just a cold, no?
  • Farooq said:

    What's wrong with Alexa getting children to electrocute themselves? Death is a part of life. It's Darwinism. We shouldn't sacrifice our freedoms just to save the lives of a few people that would have walked in front of a bus or fell down an open drain anyway.

    I think you are Philip and I claim my £10.

    :smile:
  • HYUFD said:

    I bow to the oracle of all Tyndall then.

    So wise at the failings of Boris who has still given him the Brexit he largely wants, he may end up with a UK outside the single market (so still no FOM to appease the redwall) but in a customs union with the EU under a PM Starmer. Exactly the Brexit he does not want!
    There is one word often used in Scotland to describe your musings

    'Havering'

    Please look it up
  • We are about to slam the door shut on viable food imports and exports. The paperwork changes coming in on Saturday are going to do Bad Things. Being able to remove all of these customs checks is very much something we need and will benefit from.
    No. What would help would be being in the Single Market. An EFTA type arrangement with the EEA would be sufficient to remove almost all of the paperwork, just as it does for them. Membership of the Customs Union is unnecessary and in our case would be very counter productive.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    dixiedean said:

    Did we ever answer the question of whether omicron requires ventilation at all? Am concerned people are putting too much store on this metric for a strain which doesn't seem to affect the lungs.

    It’s the lung issues that kill people in the main. Still a good proxy for death rates.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,161
    Eabhal said:

    Agreed. In the same way that excess deaths are the ultimate data for measuring this.

    Just wondered if there was something fundamentally different about Omi which makes it more of a sleeper virus that causes issues later on (playing Devil's advocate).

    Still reckon we'll get >200,000 cases, specimen.
    I slept badly last night - must have been a consequence of listening to the final rites of the Third Test - and had a mild nightmare in which Omicron ended up being a sleeper virus that was fatal to more than half of those who caught it three months after infection. Those people who were on a countdown to almost certain death did not go quietly in the story in my dream. Anyway, the effect was seen first in South Africa, of course, but I would guess there's no sign of a sting in the tail yet, because there doesn't seem to be any interest in the situation in South Africa any more.
  • This administration can't make that compromise, but its successor can. Whether that is Sunak or Starmer. As with Covid there as so many glaring things to deal with that the Don't Look Up! mentality of the remaining spartans in the '22 won't be enough to stop Sunak.

    Remember that cutting Red Tape, armies of Bureaucrats and Costs on Business is what the Tory party used to be about, with decades-long battles fought to abolish all of those. that they have piled all of them back on hugely, with no purpose or benefit is surely an aberation that will pass.
    I often agree with you and do so on this

    I fervently hope Boris going will see us reset our relationship with the EU and hopefully with Rishi
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    Alistair said:

    Is it? Without a human level artificial intelligence it will always be possible to craft adversarial input that gets round whatever laughable content filters Amazon put in place.

    The problem here is they want Alexa to be a general lookup tool but cannot possibly hope to provide general level answers when you consider how much awful stuff there is on the Internet.
    I think he might5 have meant 'switch off, Alexa'.
  • Farooq said:

    Fixed that for you
    This was a reference to a Daily Mirror competition of the 70s, seeking out a lookylikey carrying a copy of the Daily Mirrer in a particular seaside resort btw, nothing sinister.

    :smile:
  • Wow, that's harsh. But fair.
    I will admit that HYUFD brings out the worst in me. I can accept we may differ on basic political matters just as I do with many other PB regulars who I otherwise get along with extremely well. But almost uniquely on here I consider him to be what I would refer to as a 'bad' person. His willingness to support and advocate the use of force and violence against people he differs with politically puts him beyond the pale for me. Even if he is not entirely serious, his advocacy for such action makes him someone I believe worthy of utter contempt. It all goes back to the Spanish Grandmothers originally but that has set the tone for his more recent pronouncements and my responses.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,270
    Eabhal said:

    If it doesn't affect the lungs then it's just a cold, no?
    Apart from the myocarditis, strokes, renal failure etc...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,087

    I often agree with you and do so on this

    I fervently hope Boris going will see us reset our relationship with the EU and hopefully with Rishi
    How would the reset happen? Join a Customs Union with the EU like Starmer likely would and a move towards which toppled May? Rejoin the single market even?

    Either would restart a civil war in the Tory party over the EU and Brexit and see defections to RefUK and a likely Farage return
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,173
    MaxPB said:

    No it's option 3, deprioritise COVID treatment for vaccine refusers but don't say anything. Even if they go to the media about not getting NHS treatment there will be little sympathy for people who have refused the vaccine.
    I have some sympathy for your frustration with the buggers, but hospital doctors are not going to euthanise them by stealth. They've consistently prioritised Covid care over everything else *and* shown no inclination to treat people in any way differently depending on vaccination status. The NHS is perfectly happy to hook refusers up to ventilators whilst abandoning other seriously ill people to die to make room for them.

    If the Government wants refusers wheeled off into a tent in the hospital car park and put down then it will have to issue explicit orders to that effect, which the medical profession will disobey and the courts would most likely strike down in any event.

    There are only two ways to approach the refuser problem: persist with gentle persuasion, which is agonizingly slow and probably won't do very much good, or find ways to make their lives so difficult that they give in. Except that measures so extreme that they would have the desired effect - basically stripping refusers of the right to work without vaccine certification - would almost certainly be vetoed by an alliance of Opposition parties and Tory libertarians.

    So we're back to persuasion, or persuasion plus useless gestures like vaxports for restaurants, which will only provoke more heel digging without really hurting the refusers and, therefore, make the situation worse rather than better. Sadly, I think that patiently listening to their "concerns" and/or talking them out of their apathy is all we've got.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,823
    dixiedean said:

    Did we ever answer the question of whether omicron requires ventilation at all? Am concerned people are putting too much store on this metric for a strain which doesn't seem to affect the lungs.

    That's why it's a key stat, if it doesn't affect the lungs then hospitalisations because of COVID will be a lot lower. People aren't going to be hospitalised because they sneeze and cough a bit.
  • Farooq said:

    I know, I got the reference ;)
    Was it the express? thought it was the Mirror.
  • HYUFD said:

    How would the reset happen? Join a Customs Union with the EU like Starmer likely would and a move towards which toppled May? Rejoin the single market even?

    Either would restart a civil war in the Tory party over the EU and Brexit and see defections to RefUK and a likely Farage return
    Did you look up 'havering'
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    Foxy said:

    Apart from the myocarditis, strokes, renal failure etc...
    And the interactions with anaesthesia which you highlighted just now.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620

    I will admit that HYUFD brings out the worst in me. I can accept we may differ on basic political matters just as I do with many other PB regulars who I otherwise get along with extremely well. But almost uniquely on here I consider him to be what I would refer to as a 'bad' person. His willingness to support and advocate the use of force and violence against people he differs with politically puts him beyond the pale for me. Even if he is not entirely serious, his advocacy for such action makes him someone I believe worthy of utter contempt. It all goes back to the Spanish Grandmothers originally but that has set the tone for his more recent pronouncements and my responses.
    PB pedantry: they'd call themselves the Catalunyan grannies - which was rather the point as I recall.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,823
    Foxy said:

    Apart from the myocarditis, strokes, renal failure etc...
    But take out lung related issues from COVID admissions and it's not going to topple the NHS any time soon. It becomes just another background illness, and not much of a big deal at all to the triple vaccinated or previously infected.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,087
    edited December 2021

    I will admit that HYUFD brings out the worst in me. I can accept we may differ on basic political matters just as I do with many other PB regulars who I otherwise get along with extremely well. But almost uniquely on here I consider him to be what I would refer to as a 'bad' person. His willingness to support and advocate the use of force and violence against people he differs with politically puts him beyond the pale for me. Even if he is not entirely serious, his advocacy for such action makes him someone I believe worthy of utter contempt. It all goes back to the Spanish Grandmothers originally but that has set the tone for his more recent pronouncements and my responses.
    Do I care? No, if Nationalists rioted and tried and declared UDI or held an indyref without UK government consent the full force of the state would need to be used to stop them.

    Anything else would be weak. Catalonia remains in Spain after Madrid took tough action to stop the Catalan separatists trying to break off in 2017.

    I may agree with you on a few things like grammar schools but otherwise in my view you are an extreme libertarian whose opinion of me does not bother me at all
  • Carnyx said:

    PB pedantry: they'd call themselves the Catalunyan grannies - which was rather the point as I recall.
    Apologies you are correct :)
  • HYUFD said:

    Do I care? No, if Nationalists rioted and tried and declare UDI or hold an indyref without UK government consent the full force of the state would need to be used to stop them.

    Anything else would be weak. Catalonia remains in Spain after Madrid took tough action to stop the Catalan separatists trying to break off in 2017
    Thanks. It is nice to have my impressions reinforced. I am content with my fascist label for you. I think almost uniquely on PB as well.
  • HYUFD said:

    Do I care? No, if Nationalists rioted and tried and declare UDI or hold an indyref without UK government consent the full force of the state would need to be used to stop them.

    Anything else would be weak. Catalonia remains in Spain after Madrid took tough action to stop the Catalan separatists trying to break off in 2017
    You perfectly make @Richard_Tyndall point
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620

    Thanks. It is nice to have my impressions reinforced. I am content with my fascist label for you. I think almost uniquely on PB as well.
    He's also the strongest Nationalist on PB as well.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,295
    edited December 2021

    As a Yorkshire man, I grew up with cricket in my blood, inherited from my father. I spent all of my childhood summers either playing cricket or wandering around Headingley.

    But as a parent, I've failed miserably. I've never got my children remotely interested in cricket. They won't even know the Ashes is over today. Nothing but football. I've got them voting Labour, being decent folk, drinking beer etc. - all the things I love. Except cricket. I guess it's a generational thing, sadly.

    I became a cricket fan entirely of my own accord, by watching it on BBC TV in the 1990s. No-one else in my family was interested in it in the slightest. But whenever I mentioned this to anyone, they were usually surprised. There seems to be an assumption by a lot of people that you only get interested in the game because another member of your family introduces you to it. I don't know why that is.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,226
    Regional admissions

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  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    HYUFD said:

    Do I care? No, if Nationalists rioted and tried and declared UDI or held an indyref without UK government consent the full force of the state would need to be used to stop them.

    Anything else would be weak. Catalonia remains in Spain after Madrid took tough action to stop the Catalan separatists trying to break off in 2017.

    I may agree with you on a few things like grammar schools but otherwise in my view you are an extreme libertarian whose opinion of me does not bother me at all
    On that logic you, being a Remainer, should have demanded that the French and Germans etc send in their armies to prevent the Brexit referendum, because you didn't like the idea of a referendum for something you didn't like.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,537
    HYUFD said:

    The answer is you are an EUphile protectionist. There is no other answer as you clearly oppose any trade deals we have outside the EU and opportunities for UK exporters. Instead you would just pull up the drawbridge outside the EU orbit and slam high tariffs on our trade with the rest of the world
    Lol. What a twit. That has nothing whatsoever to do with what I asked you. Just answer the question I asked. Simple factual question. You are looking very silly now you have been unable to answer after 4 requests. This has nothing to do with what you think I am.
  • To be fair to @HYUFD whilst I don't agree with using force whatsoever and I'd oppose it in the strongest terms, at least he's not ever nasty to other people or jumps down their throats. I've only ever had pleasant dealings with him which is a lot more than can be said about those who are pretending to be holier than though by attacking him now.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,087

    Did you look up 'havering'
    If anyone is havering with indecision it is you not me
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    HYUFD said:

    If anyone is havering with indecision it is you not me
    So you didn't look it up. That's not what it means.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,161
    pigeon said:

    I have some sympathy for your frustration with the buggers, but hospital doctors are not going to euthanise them by stealth. They've consistently prioritised Covid care over everything else *and* shown no inclination to treat people in any way differently depending on vaccination status. The NHS is perfectly happy to hook refusers up to ventilators whilst abandoning other seriously ill people to die to make room for them.

    If the Government wants refusers wheeled off into a tent in the hospital car park and put down then it will have to issue explicit orders to that effect, which the medical profession will disobey and the courts would most likely strike down in any event.

    There are only two ways to approach the refuser problem: persist with gentle persuasion, which is agonizingly slow and probably won't do very much good, or find ways to make their lives so difficult that they give in. Except that measures so extreme that they would have the desired effect - basically stripping refusers of the right to work without vaccine certification - would almost certainly be vetoed by an alliance of Opposition parties and Tory libertarians.

    So we're back to persuasion, or persuasion plus useless gestures like vaxports for restaurants, which will only provoke more heel digging without really hurting the refusers and, therefore, make the situation worse rather than better. Sadly, I think that patiently listening to their "concerns" and/or talking them out of their apathy is all we've got.
    In the first wave there was a minor kerfuffle over a triage scorecard determining who would receive treatment for Covid. You would get points for various factors on an infirmity scale, and the higher your score the more likely it would be that you would not be treated, if there was someone more likely to benefit from treatment (with a lower score).

    Pretty sure it would be possible for the government and NHS to put together a similar set of triage guidelines that would prioritise care for cancer, and heart disease over Covid care for vaccine refusers, on the basis that the former were more likely to benefit from treatment that those who reject modern medical science. Also, if you were to open some specific standalone Covid wards (whether in a car park tent or not) then it's a simple matter of moving people to the appropriate wards and providing more resources to other wards in the hospital.

    The NHS has always operated by rationing care with a system of queueing. It would not be difficult to change the prioritisation order for the queue to prioritise other patients above Covid patients. It's been done before to prioritise speedy cancer diagnostics and treatment ahead of other conditions. How many people will be demanding that vaccine refusers jump ahead of them in the queue for hospital treatment?
  • Carnyx said:

    So you didn't look it up. That's not what it means.
    It is almost comical
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,087
    kjh said:

    Lol. What a twit. That has nothing whatsoever to do with what I asked you. Just answer the question I asked. Simple factual question. You are looking very silly now you have been unable to answer after 4 requests. This has nothing to do with what you think I am.
    It had everything to do with it. You opposed the UK trade deals with Australia, New Zealand etc and the opportunities provided for UK exporters because you are an EUphile protectionist. Free trade with the EU but pull up the drawbridge and ratchet up the tariffs outside it
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,087
    Carnyx said:

    On that logic you, being a Remainer, should have demanded that the French and Germans etc send in their armies to prevent the Brexit referendum, because you didn't like the idea of a referendum for something you didn't like.
    The EU have only themselves to blame for putting Article 16 in their constitution which provided the mechanism to exit the block the UK then used
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620

    Apologies you are correct :)
    Just thinking, actually, given the result of the referendum that some of those grannies smashed in the face were actually Spanish grannies voting to remain in Spain, to be fair. Not that it did them any good when the police came.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620

    To be fair to @HYUFD whilst I don't agree with using force whatsoever and I'd oppose it in the strongest terms, at least he's not ever nasty to other people or jumps down their throats. I've only ever had pleasant dealings with him which is a lot more than can be said about those who are pretending to be holier than though by attacking him now.

    He's accused me of some fairly nasty things, including at least one serious crime. Certainly in his view. If that's being polite ...
  • Carnyx said:

    He's accused me of some fairly nasty things, including at least one serious crime. Certainly in his view. If that's being polite ...
    I'm not aware of such things I am afraid. I can only speak to his dealings with me.

    And even when he's disagreed with me politically and I think he does on almost every issue, he's never jumped on as many here have (and that is not just against me, I see it a lot against other people too).

    I also appreciate his polling posts, he does a lot more than post "Starmer is crap" or "Boris is crap" like so many others do (I am not exempted from that - trying to do better).
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,159
    edited December 2021
    MaxPB said:

    But take out lung related issues from COVID admissions and it's not going to topple the NHS any time soon. It becomes just another background illness, and not much of a big deal at all to the triple vaccinated or previously infected.
    Can the other symptoms occur independently of lung issues?

    If so, that's a rather scary element of the virus I wasn't aware of, especially if it remains the case for Omi.

    A sore throat then a sudden stroke. Eeeeek.

    The anaesthetic thing was only brought to my attention pre-op. Scary stuff too, was nervous anyway.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    edited December 2021

    I'm not aware of such things I am afraid. I can only speak to his dealings with me.

    And even when he's disagreed with me politically and I think he does on almost every issue, he's never jumped on as many here have (and that is not just against me, I see it a lot against other people too).

    I also appreciate his polling posts, he does a lot more than post "Starmer is crap" or "Boris is crap" like so many others do (I am not exempted from that - trying to do better).
    I'd appreciatde his polling posts a lot more if the Scottish ones weren't [edit] often distorted by fiddling (e.g. Scottish Greens are ignored as a pro-indy party, DKs are [edit] assumed to be unionist, etc.) That verges on propaganda rather than political science.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,325
    stodge said:

    Let's say in that alternate universe where Boris Johnson commits to David Cameron and REMAIN and somehow his personality and force of will affects the result so REMAIN wins 52-48.

    As a loyal Conservative Party member and REMAIN supporter, you would doubtless welcome the result as a personal triumph for the Prime Minister and urge those who voted LEAVE to accept the result and get behind the Government.

    Would David Cameron have served a full second term? He said he wouldn't so in the summer of 2018 (perhaps) he retires and I would imagine George Osborne would be the obvious successor. Osborne's allies in the party such as Matt Hancock are all promoted in the post-leadership election reshuffle with Boris Johnson becoming Foreign Secretary.

    There's due to be an election in May 2020 but that's postponed by mutual agreement owing to the Covid crisis. There's extensive criticism of the vaccination rollout as we are constrained to move with the rest of the EU - would Osborne win a May 2021 election against Jeremy Corbyn?

    I'll leave you to ponder that but the rest of it is plausible I think.
    Plausible, but we would never have known that Johnson was the world-beating vaccination King, so the comparison with Europe wouldn't really be considered.

    On the other hand Cameron/Osborn would have the opportunity to take action in an instant, not miss all those 2020 Cobra meetings and would be smart enough not to hold Christmas lockdown- busting parties. WE would be pushing towards the 100,000 fatality mark by now, which would concern Cameron/Osborn.

    I would imagine the furlough scheme would have been based more on a minimum personal income to reduce the potential for fraud.

    Corbyn in the meantime, couldn't get his head around what was going on and having to oppose for the sake of opposing might have attended a march with his brother...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,087
    Carnyx said:

    He's accused me of some fairly nasty things, including at least one serious crime. Certainly in his view. If that's being polite ...
    Some people on here who are centre left like CHB and NP I like even though I disagree with them most of the time.

    Ultra Nationalists like you and ultra libertarians like Tyndall however who are frequently rude and aggressive towards me (and even if I sometimes agree with Tyndall on a few things his tone soon puts me off again) are a different matter.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    Eabhal said:

    Can the other symptoms occur independently of lung issues?

    If so, that's a rather scary element of the virus I wasn't aware of, especially if it remains the case for Omi.

    A sore throat then a sudden stroke. Eeeeek.

    The anaesthetic thing was only brought to my attention pre-op. Scary stuff too, was nervous anyway.
    Quite. So complaining about someone dying of a stroke but being recorded as a Covid case isn't necessarily irrational, despite some views.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,087
    Farooq said:

    I vote not guilty. On Umberto Eco's "definition" of fascism, I score HYUFD as 4/14, which is far below the level I would expect for the charge to stick

    "The Cult of Tradition" - no. HYUFD is obsessed with aspects of the past, but has not revealed a reflexive rejection of new learning.
    "The Rejection of modernism" - probably not. HYUFD has been much less vocal about post-Enlightenment philosophy than many others, and sits on the mildly conservative part of that spectrum
    "The Cult of Action for Action's Sake" - no. HYUFD is often vocally in favour of inaction.
    "Disagreement Is Treason" - yes, this typifies a lot of HYUFD's madder output
    "Fear of Difference" - no
    "Appeal to a Frustrated Middle Class" - sometimes, but not unusually so
    "Obsession with a Plot" - occasionally. HYUFD sees treason much more readily than others.
    Enemies as "at the same time too strong and too weak." - no
    "Pacifism is Trafficking with the Enemy" - partially. HYUFD often plugs into tropes about internal and external treason.
    "Contempt for the Weak" - no, I think HYUFD tends to be fairly ignorant and uncaring about the weak, but doesn't go out of his way to look down on them.
    "Everybody is Educated to Become a Hero" - falls short. Militarist fantasies are not sufficient for this charge to stick.
    "Machismo" - partial. HYUFD strikes me as clearly sexist, but I haven't seen any homophobia.
    "Selective Populism" - definitely, but there's a lot of it about
    "Newspeak" - not really. The frequent abuse of statistics and deliberate logical evasions are not the same as deliberately impoverishing the language to prevent rational discourse.
    Tyndall of course voted for UKIP too in 2015, I have never voted for a party right of the Tories unlike him
  • HYUFD said:

    The EU have only themselves to blame for putting Article 16 in their constitution which provided the mechanism to exit the block the UK then used
    How dare they allow a mechanism for us to exercise our sovereignty!

    And they even allowed a British lawyer to draft it!!

    That shows how undemocratic they are!!!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    edited December 2021
    HYUFD said:

    Some people on here who are centre left like CHB and NP I like even though I disagree with them most of the time.

    Ultra Nationalists like you and ultra libertarians like Tyndall however who are frequently rude and aggressive towards me (and even if I sometimes agree with Tyndall on a few things his tone soon puts me off again) are a different matter.
    See, you're doing it right now this very minute. I'm not an ultranationalist - I'm a pro-independence centrist dad. you are the ultranationalist in the sense that you refuse to tolerate any independence movements within the UK or to allow any referenda on the matter. You are subversive of democracy and politics. I'd be sorry if Dumfriesshire decided to leave an independent Scotland but that would be the way it goes. If I were an ultranationalist I'd be sending on the police, tanks, etc. You see?
  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 21,436
    edited December 2021
    Not to turn this into a love-in with @HYUFD but at least he doesn't pretend to not be anything other than a Tory unlike some others who seem to spend their whole time trying to pretend they're not, or that they're just about to quit the party for the third time this week...

    Anyway, I just thought @HYUFD deserved some support, I really wish people would stop jumping on him. We don't hear a lot about him beyond his political POV (something which I respect) but there is somebody behind that keyboard and it can't be easy to have sometimes a lot of abuse coming your way.

    I'm leaving this topic to one side, I have a delicious bolognese that is on the menu for this evening
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    Farooq said:

    It's not really about who you vote for, though, especially given the shifting nature of political parties. A 2015 UKIP vote was certainly not a vote for fascism, but I wouldn't be so definite about a 2021 vote for them. In any case, people vote for parties for the oddest of reasons and I prefer to judge people on their actions and words, rather than a second-order endorsement of a party's entire program on the basis of a single vote.
    Quite so, like voting for PC once.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620

    Not to turn this into a love-in with @HYUFD but at least he doesn't pretend to not be anything other than a Tory unlike some others who seem to spend their whole time trying to pretend they're not, or that they're just about to quit the party for the third time this week...

    Anyway, I just thought @HYUFD deserved some support, I really wish people would stop jumping on him.

    I'm leaving this topic to one side, I have a delicious bolognese that is on the menu for this evening

    Excellent idea. Will do so too. Sausages and beans and mash for us tonight.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,173
    Carnyx said:

    See, you're doing it right now this very minute. I'm not an ultranationalist - I'm a pro-independence centrist dad. you are the ultranationalist in the sense that you refuse to tolerate any independence movements within the UK or to allow any referenda on the matter. You are subversive of democracy and politics. I'd be sorry if Dumfriesshire decided to leave an independent Scotland but that would be the way it goes. If I were an ultranationalist I'd be sending on the police, tanks, etc. You see?
    Quite. FWIW there are some right fruitloops on here but you've always struck me as being usually pretty innocuous. If that isn't too rude?
  • Carnyx said:

    Excellent idea. Will do so too. Sausages and beans and mash for us tonight.
    Yum yum, what sausages have you gone for?
  • Yum yum, what sausages have you gone for?
    Sausage, chips and bacon here :)
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,670
    HYUFD said:

    The EU have only themselves to blame for putting Article 16 in their constitution which provided the mechanism to exit the block the UK then used
    How dare they allow a mechanism for us to exercise our sovereignty!

    And they even allowed a British lawyer to draft it!!

    Article 50, surely?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,159
    Carnyx said:

    See, you're doing it right now this very minute. I'm not an ultranationalist - I'm a pro-independence centrist dad. you are the ultranationalist in the sense that you refuse to tolerate any independence movements within the UK or to allow any referenda on the matter. You are subversive of democracy and politics. I'd be sorry if Dumfriesshire decided to leave an independent Scotland but that would be the way it goes. If I were an ultranationalist I'd be sending on the police, tanks, etc. You see?
    Interesting - one if the logical faults I have with independence is why wouldn't you respect the wishes of the no-voting LAs? Especially tax paying Edinburgh...

    Appreciate it's a silly argument but it stumped an SNP MSP who canvassed me in 2014, he countered with legal/religious/cultural border with England, which was a bit weak tbh. I think Edinburgh has far more in common with say Bristol than the Highlands.
  • Sausage, chips and bacon here :)
    Hello mate, I seem to have missed your posts recently but glad you are here again and hope you are keeping well
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620

    Yum yum, what sausages have you gone for?
    Something from the community foodstore - a small local farm/meat company, not sure which one (there are two or three). Don't know what kind yet - chipolatas apparently, whatever that means apart from size (Mrs C bought them).
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,270
    Off to the match with foxjr2. Last 2 matches that he went to we won 4:2, so have 50 pence on at 100/1. 🤣

    More realistically Leicester+1 on the handicaps at 4:1.

  • Hello mate, I seem to have missed your posts recently but glad you are here again and hope you are keeping well
    Yes thank you. I had a prolonged break from PB and popped back for Xmas / NYr
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,177
    “What would Labour do differently?”

    Actually level up the North, perhaps?

    Even if its bollocks, the bollocks didn’t stop the Tories winning votes promising it with their fingers crossed behind their backs.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,161
    edited December 2021

    Not to turn this into a love-in with @HYUFD but at least he doesn't pretend to not be anything other than a Tory unlike some others who seem to spend their whole time trying to pretend they're not, or that they're just about to quit the party for the third time this week...

    Anyway, I just thought @HYUFD deserved some support, I really wish people would stop jumping on him. We don't hear a lot about him beyond his political POV (something which I respect) but there is somebody behind that keyboard and it can't be easy to have sometimes a lot of abuse coming your way.

    I'm leaving this topic to one side, I have a delicious bolognese that is on the menu for this evening

    I'm trying not to get drawn into discussions like this, but HYUFD is one of the few posters to express happiness at upsetting others on this board. There's a couple who will do so when excited/drunk, and then think better of it later, but HYUFD is consistent about wanting to upset people he disagrees with.
  • 179,807 new confirmed cases in France (previous record 104,611). Given that their testing rates are lower than ours, that's a hell of a lot. Let's hope their booster rollout has been enough to limit the fallout, but I fear they are in for a rough time. Some other European countries will be even worse, of course.

    If your French is up to it, this long thread from a French emergency-care doctor is quite something:

    https://twitter.com/JulieOudet/status/1475197820747628548
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,087
    Carnyx said:

    See, you're doing it right now this very minute. I'm not an ultranationalist - I'm a pro-independence centrist dad. you are the ultranationalist in the sense that you refuse to tolerate any independence movements within the UK or to allow any referenda on the matter. You are subversive of democracy and politics. I'd be sorry if Dumfriesshire decided to leave an independent Scotland but that would be the way it goes. If I were an ultranationalist I'd be sending on the police, tanks, etc. You see?
    You had your referendum in 2014, you voted to stay, it was meant to be once in a generation.

    You are a supporter of the Scottish National Party, the clue is in the title
  • Carnyx said:

    Something from the community foodstore - a small local farm/meat company, not sure which one (there are two or three). Don't know what kind yet - chipolatas apparently, whatever that means apart from size (Mrs C bought them).
    That sounds delicious, just don't cremate them as I did the other day!

    I really like the Waitrose basic ones.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,537
    HYUFD said:

    It had everything to do with it. You opposed the UK trade deals with Australia, New Zealand etc and the opportunities provided for UK exporters because you are an EUphile protectionist. Free trade with the EU but pull up the drawbridge and ratchet up the tariffs outside it
    No I didn't. I have never said so. You just made that up. I don't know enough about them to know if they are any good, but I approve of the idea of all free trade deals.

    Now for the 5th time answer the question? Is there any chance that you don't know the answer? You don't do you? Admit it you have been posting about something you have no idea about?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    Eabhal said:

    Interesting - one if the logical faults I have with independence is why wouldn't you respect the wishes of the no-voting LAs? Especially tax paying Edinburgh...

    Appreciate it's a silly argument but it stumped an SNP MSP who canvassed me in 2014, he countered with legal/religious/cultural border with England, which was a bit weak tbh. I think Edinburgh has far more in common with say Bristol than the Highlands.
    Scotland is indeed a single polity anyway, legally and constitutionally, much more so than many realise. The Acts of Union are the key legislation and one has to begin with that; one couldn't very well organise an independence referendum from Scotland till the country was independent. Simple as that.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    HYUFD said:

    You had your referendum in 2014, you voted to stay, it was meant to be once in a generation.

    You are a supporter of the Scottish National Party, the clue is in the title
    National does not mean nationalist. You're a nationalist like the Spanish nacionalistas. I'm an independist like the Catalunyan independistas. We've been over this many times before.
  • jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,273
    Eabhal said:

    Can the other symptoms occur independently of lung issues?

    If so, that's a rather scary element of the virus I wasn't aware of, especially if it remains the case for Omi.

    A sore throat then a sudden stroke. Eeeeek.

    The anaesthetic thing was only brought to my attention pre-op. Scary stuff too, was nervous anyway.
    Covid can cause a lot of Vascular issues. There is still a lot of unknown about this disease, why it goes to certain areas in the body and what it affects some people more than others.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,087

    Not to turn this into a love-in with @HYUFD but at least he doesn't pretend to not be anything other than a Tory unlike some others who seem to spend their whole time trying to pretend they're not, or that they're just about to quit the party for the third time this week...

    Anyway, I just thought @HYUFD deserved some support, I really wish people would stop jumping on him. We don't hear a lot about him beyond his political POV (something which I respect) but there is somebody behind that keyboard and it can't be easy to have sometimes a lot of abuse coming your way.

    I'm leaving this topic to one side, I have a delicious bolognese that is on the menu for this evening

    Thanks, of course your first paragraph certainly does not apply to BigG at all, no connection whatsoever....
  • jonny83 said:

    Covid can cause a lot of Vascular issues. There is still a lot of unknown about this disease, why it goes to certain areas in the body and what it affects some people more than others.
    Am I right in saying you work in a hospital? What is your view on the "incidental" admissions?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,526
    edited December 2021
    If you thought the footy was getting a bit silly with all the COVID cases ...

    PDC World Darts Championship: Michael van Gerwen withdraws from tournament because of Covid-19 - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/darts/59812911

    That's the second player in 2 days who have been excluded from the tournament due to a positive covid test.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,159
    Carnyx said:

    Scotland is indeed a single polity anyway, legally and constitutionally, much more so than many realise. The Acts of Union are the key legislation and one has to begin with that; one couldn't very well organise an independence referendum from Scotland till the country was independent. Simple as that.
    Fair, and I agree, but the fundamental democracy thing isn't fully addressed IMO.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,087
    kjh said:

    No I didn't. I have never said so. You just made that up. I don't know enough about them to know if they are any good, but I approve of the idea of all free trade deals.

    Now for the 5th time answer the question? Is there any chance that you don't know the answer? You don't do you? Admit it you have been posting about something you have no idea about?
    You don't approve of them, you have made clear you oppose the main trade deals the UK has negotiated it did not have in the EU
  • MattW said:

    How dare they allow a mechanism for us to exercise our sovereignty!

    And they even allowed a British lawyer to draft it!!

    Article 50, surely?
    Oops! Yes indeed!! Too many definite articles ;)
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398

    In the first wave there was a minor kerfuffle over a triage scorecard determining who would receive treatment for Covid. You would get points for various factors on an infirmity scale, and the higher your score the more likely it would be that you would not be treated, if there was someone more likely to benefit from treatment (with a lower score).

    Pretty sure it would be possible for the government and NHS to put together a similar set of triage guidelines that would prioritise care for cancer, and heart disease over Covid care for vaccine refusers, on the basis that the former were more likely to benefit from treatment that those who reject modern medical science. Also, if you were to open some specific standalone Covid wards (whether in a car park tent or not) then it's a simple matter of moving people to the appropriate wards and providing more resources to other wards in the hospital.

    The NHS has always operated by rationing care with a system of queueing. It would not be difficult to change the prioritisation order for the queue to prioritise other patients above Covid patients. It's been done before to prioritise speedy cancer diagnostics and treatment ahead of other conditions. How many people will be demanding that vaccine refusers jump ahead of them in the queue for hospital treatment?
    Unlimited, unconditional care for vaccine refusers in a pandemic is expensive. If our commitment to this means that we experience substantial economic and social harm; then the principles of why such care is provided should be examined, and perhaps ultimately changed. Particularly if the provision of such care directly leads to other avoidable deaths. That is the point where the current system of healthcare provision has lost all coherance.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    Eabhal said:

    Fair, and I agree, but the fundamental democracy thing isn't fully addressed IMO.
    Partition by the British state in the event of a successful referendum is one thing, as it would be intervention and indeed territorial aggression; letting the Scots sort out their differences is another matter, and it would be very difficult to argue against the democracy thing in those circumstances.

  • Carnyx said:

    Scotland is indeed a single polity anyway, legally and constitutionally, much more so than many realise. The Acts of Union are the key legislation and one has to begin with that; one couldn't very well organise an independence referendum from Scotland till the country was independent. Simple as that.
    I don't know about that. Wasn't there an SNP MSP who suggested that Berwick upon Tweed should join Scotland, and even considered standing in Berwick constituency at the 2015 GE? Dumfriesshire - to go with that example - could theoretically leave Scotland to join England, even if the two remained in the UK.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,159
    Carnyx said:

    Partition by the British state in the event of a successful referendum is one thing, as it would be intervention and indeed territorial aggression; letting the Scots sort out their differences is another matter, and it would be very difficult to argue against the democracy thing in those circumstances.

    Wouldn't put it past the Tories :wink:
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    179,807 new confirmed cases in France (previous record 104,611). Given that their testing rates are lower than ours, that's a hell of a lot. Let's hope their booster rollout has been enough to limit the fallout, but I fear they are in for a rough time. Some other European countries will be even worse, of course.

    If your French is up to it, this long thread from a French emergency-care doctor is quite something:

    https://twitter.com/JulieOudet/status/1475197820747628548

    Didn't read it all, but powerful stuff. Ends with a "j'accuse" moment
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    For anyone amused by the bizarre Alexa plug thing, I highly recommend Dave Eggers novels (the Circle and the Every). Not really about the failure of AI, but about how 'tech' is just making us incredibly stupid. Also, for a more serious read; the age of Surveillance Capitalism by Shoshana Zuboff. Not an easy read but it is a convincing explanation of what is going wrong, and how difficult it is to fix it.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    edited December 2021

    I don't know about that. Wasn't there an SNP MSP who suggested that Berwick upon Tweed should join Scotland, and even considered standing in Berwick constituency at the 2015 GE? Dumfriesshire - to go with that example - could theoretically leave Scotland to join England, even if the two remained in the UK.
    Different legally. Berwick was, until relatively recently, neither Scotland nor England legally but - depending on which bits of land were involved inside and outside the walls - rather odd limbos, some at least effectively Scottish territory under English military occupation. But it wasd originally Scottish and there has been at times a local movement for reunion.

    The Dumfriesshire option of moving even within the UK has already happened in a sense; Mr Blair changed the sea boundaries by fiat just before the Scottish Executive (as it was then) was reestablished in 1997, annexing a fair chunk of the North Sea [edit] to England. He didn't do that on land, though, for (I assume) legal and political reasons as well as legal (completely different legal systems). However they didn't think to deal with the sea floor in the 1706 Acts ...
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,537
    HYUFD said:

    You don't approve of them, you have made clear you oppose the main trade deals the UK has negotiated it did not have in the EU
    What nonsense. We are out of the EU now so of course I approve of trade deals even though I would have preferred we hadn't left, but I'm not going to sulk in the corner. I'm just like you in fact though aren't I? You were a remainer to so how do we differ in that respect?

    You are twisting yourself in knots.

    Now for the 6th time answer the question? Not doing so makes you look very silly. It goes to show you have no idea about the free trade deals you are pontificating on.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,558

    That sounds delicious, just don't cremate them as I did the other day!

    I really like the Waitrose basic ones.
    Waitrose basic range being I take it the same as a premium luxury brand anywhere else?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,087
    kjh said:

    What nonsense. We are out of the EU now so of course I approve of trade deals even though I would have preferred we hadn't left, but I'm not going to sulk in the corner. I'm just like you in fact though aren't I? You were a remainer to so how do we differ in that respect?

    You are twisting yourself in knots.

    Now for the 6th time answer the question? Not doing so makes you look very silly. It goes to show you have no idea about the free trade deals you are pontificating on.
    No, I supported the UK trade deals with Australia and New Zealand as a result of the opportunities they provide UK exporters.

    You and your fellow Liberal Democrats opposed them
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,482
    ydoethur said:

    Waitrose basic range being I take it the same as a premium luxury brand anywhere else?
    A tin of beans is a tin of beans.
  • xxxxx5xxxxx5 Posts: 38
    I live in a red wall seat and Labour offer me nothing. Correct Horse Battery was simply on another planet saying New Labour did more for people like me between 1997 and 2010 really? Free movement reducing wages in return for more sure start buildings the hall mark of New Labour between 1997 and 2010. What is Starmers offer? Vote Labour get more free movement?
  • HYUFD said:

    Thanks, of course your first paragraph certainly does not apply to BigG at all, no connection whatsoever....
    It cannot apply to me as I have already quit the party and demanded from my mp that he seeks the replacement of Boris
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,558
    Carnyx said:

    Different legally. Berwick was, until relatively recently, neither Scotland nor England legally but - depending on which bits of land were involved inside and outside the walls - rather odd limbos, some at least effectively Scottish territory under English military occupation. But it wasd originally Scottish and there has been at times a local movement for reunion.

    The Dumfriesshire option of moving even within the UK has already happened in a sense; Mr Blair changed the sea boundaries by fiat just before the Scottish Executive (as it was then) was reestablished in 1997, annexing a fair chunk of the North Sea [edit] to England. He didn't do that on land, though, for (I assume) legal and political reasons as well as legal (completely different legal systems). However they didn't think to deal with the sea floor in the 1706 Acts ...
    Dumfriesshire is on the other side of the country from the North Sea!
  • jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,273
    edited December 2021

    Am I right in saying you work in a hospital? What is your view on the "incidental" admissions?
    Well I am not a Doctor or Nurse and I work in Occupational Health so we help deal with the Health and Wellbeing of staff and the Covid Vaccination programme.

    I have been on wards and we do a lot of initiatives at our Trust to promote staff Health and Wellbeing. Our trust was on CNN a number of times during some of the earlier waves so we got hit pretty hard with it. Lot of staff have been referred to us by their managers or they have referred themselves as the impact of working with Covid has really taken it's toll. Our job is to support them and help them back into work.

    But to your question answered by perhaps a layman and just my opinion, Incidental admissions have happened throughout Covid, are we seeing more of this with Omicron? I don't know, but any Covid admission whether that's admittance because of Covid or incidental puts a strain on services.

    Someone tests positive when they are in for something else means all the infection control protocols have to kick in, have to make sure procedures are put in place and carried out. You also have to prevent nosocomial infections and transmission in the hospitals as well. This is such a transmissible disease that you have to prevent it finding the way to the most vulnerable in hospital.

    Covid in general in hospitals puts a lot of strain on so many different services in so many different ways.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    ydoethur said:

    Dumfriesshire is on the other side of the country from the North Sea!
    Excellent geography. I was just saying that fiddling the border has been tried, just not in So0lway or at Gretna. Apols for the confusion.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,087

    It cannot apply to me as I have already quit the party and demanded from my mp that he seeks the replacement of Boris
    If I got a pound for the amount of times you have said you have quit the party and will not vote for it again, then come back and done so, I would be a millionaire
This discussion has been closed.