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Ipsos-MORI: Starmer and BoJo level on who’d make most capable PM – politicalbetting.com

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  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,140
    Leon said:

    There were other results in that poll.....



    Second lowest in the series - pipped only by Ed Miliband....

    So Starmer is actually doing worse, on that metric, than Corbyn??
    Probably about the same, which is also pretty awful. He's got less negatives though, unfortunately that only seems to last as long as people haven't seen him.
  • Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Worth noting that every Labour conference in history has been deemed a shambles on PB. In fairness, the same probably applies to the Tory and Lib conferences.

    Fake news.

    The 2007 Labour conference was brilliant, everyone said so.

    Let’s be clear: this is a mad one. You won’t have heard it anywhere else, but you can take it from me. At the age of 38, this is my 17th consecutive Labour Party conference, and I’ve never been to one quite like this.

    It’s in the nature of collective hysteria that no single act can be adduced to prove its existence. But there is a fin de siecle, self-destructive, decadent craziness about Conference 2007. Somewhere in the wads of twenty somethings and thirtywouldbes jamming the chintzy Bournemouth bars long after they’re normally silent lurks the jitterbugging desperation of the Twenties before the Crash, Berlin between the wars, London as Imperial Glory died with its queen. The collective psyche of this group of individuals who’ve never had it so good has rarely been so uncertain.

    This is not a columnar conceit. I do not really have a thesis; no point to prove. I can only tentatively explain this atmosphere. But nor am I wrong. This mood is as real as the grief in the church. I am simply reporting what is here.

    Perhaps the magnitude of the moment we face is too great for us collectively to bear. Shortly there will be an election, in which Labour will increase its majority, and in so doing utterly shatter the glass paradigm of cyclical politics which has contained us for the century since 1906. This ought to herald another decade of strong, confident, consensual Labour government. Which will finally and irrevocably transform the nature of politics and civic life in Britain.

    That is a frightening responsibility. The young princes who now stride the parade ground with the confidence born of aristocratic schooling can never be afraid. They never have been. Like latter day Pushkins drilled in the elite academy of Brownian blitzkrieg, they are bursting with their sense of destiny. It’s not the Milibands, the Ballses or the Burnhams who are unconsciously nervous. This is the moment for which they were created. They are ready.


    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2007/09/labour-majority-increase
    One of the reasons that piece is endlessly rehashed on here is that it is quite a brilliant chunk of writing. Knowingly hyperbolic, wittily hysterical, that is a writer inhaling pure oxygen (and maybe a bit of coke) and lovin' it
    Whatever became of Sion Simon ?
    He cannot be killed.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 3,559

    isam said:

    Isn't life confusing?

    When Tories want to hike the wages of working people, it's excellent news and a welcome corrective to all those years when wages were undercut by our membership of the EU and FOM.

    When Labour wants to hike the wages of working people, it's extreme socialism, if not communism, in action, and how on earth are they going to afford it?

    Not really - the free marketeers on here have pointed out it will probably happen organically anyway - the only one against it is Sir Keir, unless it's a photo op at Wandsworth McDs
    Presumably the "free marketeers" you refer to, who want wages to settle "organically", are opposed to the minimum wage then? They certainly were back in 1997, warning of devastating consequences for employment levels. For free marketeers, wages must be able to go down as well as up, surely? Otherwise it's a rigged market, not a free market.

    Tories / free marketeers seem to be all over the place on wages, actually. Some of us just want significantly higher wages for all those paid poorly. Not just McDonalds and HGV drivers, but also textile workers, warehouse workers, shop assistants, care workers and lots of other poorly paid public sector workers. I don't think for a moment that Tories really want to raise the wages of all the lower paid.

    Anyway, I'm off now to watch Brighton stuff Palace and move to the top of the PL.
    I thought you were 'northern'?
    I am by birth, upbringing and soul. But right now I live down here among the luvvies. Staring out of my window (at half time) watching the Labourites crawl from pub to pub. I'm a Leeds man, but may as well back Brighton as well, as I'm living here.
    Sorry to see that Palace are now one-up in the Gatwick derby.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,514
    glw said:

    MaxPB said:

    glw said:

    Tribune rally opened by @zarahsultana: “Want to open this rally with solidarity for our comrade Andy McDonald.” (Cue enormous applause). Says the current Labour leadership is “shameful.” Attacks the “Blairites.” #Lab21

    Sultana attacks the “Blairite clique” which she says is dominating the leadership, “gathering in drinks receptions with Peter Mandelson” [boos] “reliving the 1980s and 1990s.”

    More cheers when Sultana says “it’s an absolute disgrace that the leadership have let a scum newspaper have a stand at conference this year.”


    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1442555117182537728

    What an idiot, if the Labour leadership was dominated by a "Blairite clique" then Labour would be ahead in the polls and idiots like Sultana would have been booted out ages ago.
    Ultimately Labour seems like a party where half of the MPs don't want to win over the 2-3m Tory voters they need to get a majority. They'd rather stay in opposition than win the votes of the scum who had the temerity to vote Tory.
    The Tories are much better at politics than Labour. It's not even close.
    The Tories aren't very good at politics. They have some clever ideas and some terrible ideas, and they make lots of mistakes - and they can boast the odd triumph

    They are only in government forever because the Labour Party is inconceivably terrible at politics, and has been for about 15 years now. They've lost Scotland, they've lost the Red Wall, they've lost any sense of unity and coherence, they elected a terrorist-loving traitor as a leader, they got their worst electoral result since the Harrowing of the North, so they elected a humanoid coffin lid as the next leader, now they are trailing a government which cannot organise enough petrol for ambulances

    FFS. Just get rid of Labour. REPLACE
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 42,303

    CatMan said:

    glw said:

    glw said:

    Tribune rally opened by @zarahsultana: “Want to open this rally with solidarity for our comrade Andy McDonald.” (Cue enormous applause). Says the current Labour leadership is “shameful.” Attacks the “Blairites.” #Lab21

    Sultana attacks the “Blairite clique” which she says is dominating the leadership, “gathering in drinks receptions with Peter Mandelson” [boos] “reliving the 1980s and 1990s.”

    More cheers when Sultana says “it’s an absolute disgrace that the leadership have let a scum newspaper have a stand at conference this year.”


    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1442555117182537728

    What an idiot, if the Labour leadership was dominated by a "Blairite clique" then Labour would be ahead in the polls and idiots like Sultana would have been booted out ages ago.
    Reliving the 1990s?

    Yes. When Labour last defeated the Tories and won power after a long long period in opposition.
    Imagine a Liverpool fan who didn't like Kenny Dalglish, or a United fan who hated Ferguson, it's not easy is it? The very idea is fantastical. There is something deeply wrong with the Labour Party when so many members revile their most successful leader ever.
    The Labour Party hate Blair because of Iraq, which to be fair I don't think is that unreasonable.
    Tories also used to hate Blair because he fooled them into being the most enthusiastic supporters of Iraq, but they've moved on. He's now handy for beating SKS up for being crap by comparison, and Labour lefties for repudiating his electoral success.
    I voted for Blair twice
    Which is why you'll never be a true Tory according to the only Tory in the village, despite decades of working with the party.

    Similarly I voted for him once, so that's me excommunicated for life according to the only Tory.
    Strangely, of all the British politicians that have passed like distant comets across my life, I can only think of two that I would never under any circumstances (including brutal testicular torture before being boiled alive if I refused) consider voting for.

    One is Michael Gove.

    The other is Tony Blair.

    I don’t know why. I do actually kind of admire his extraordinary talents as a speaker, as a vote winner, an organiser and a sheer election winning machine.

    But somehow he always made me writhe with horror.
  • Finally - Representation for the South Schleswigers!

    Timely - Justice for the Heligolanders?

    Palmerston's perfidy versus Salisbury's duplicity! . . . or is it visa versa?
  • isamisam Posts: 38,131

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Isn't life confusing?

    When Tories want to hike the wages of working people, it's excellent news and a welcome corrective to all those years when wages were undercut by our membership of the EU and FOM.

    When Labour wants to hike the wages of working people, it's extreme socialism, if not communism, in action, and how on earth are they going to afford it?

    Not really - the free marketeers on here have pointed out it will probably happen organically anyway - the only one against it is Sir Keir, unless it's a photo op at Wandsworth McDs
    Presumably the "free marketeers" you refer to, who want wages to settle "organically", are opposed to the minimum wage then? They certainly were back in 1997, warning of devastating consequences for employment levels. For free marketeers, wages must be able to go down as well as up, surely? Otherwise it's a rigged market, not a free market.

    Tories / free marketeers seem to be all over the place on wages, actually. Some of us just want significantly higher wages for all those paid poorly. Not just McDonalds and HGV drivers, but also textile workers, warehouse workers, shop assistants, care workers and lots of other poorly paid public sector workers. I don't think for a moment that Tories really want to raise the wages of all the lower paid.

    Anyway, I'm off now to watch Brighton stuff Palace and move to the top of the PL.
    I thought you were 'northern'?
    He's from Hurstpierpoint!
    You what? Don't get that at all.
    It’s just North of Brighton
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 8,737

    CatMan said:

    glw said:

    glw said:

    Tribune rally opened by @zarahsultana: “Want to open this rally with solidarity for our comrade Andy McDonald.” (Cue enormous applause). Says the current Labour leadership is “shameful.” Attacks the “Blairites.” #Lab21

    Sultana attacks the “Blairite clique” which she says is dominating the leadership, “gathering in drinks receptions with Peter Mandelson” [boos] “reliving the 1980s and 1990s.”

    More cheers when Sultana says “it’s an absolute disgrace that the leadership have let a scum newspaper have a stand at conference this year.”


    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1442555117182537728

    What an idiot, if the Labour leadership was dominated by a "Blairite clique" then Labour would be ahead in the polls and idiots like Sultana would have been booted out ages ago.
    Reliving the 1990s?

    Yes. When Labour last defeated the Tories and won power after a long long period in opposition.
    Imagine a Liverpool fan who didn't like Kenny Dalglish, or a United fan who hated Ferguson, it's not easy is it? The very idea is fantastical. There is something deeply wrong with the Labour Party when so many members revile their most successful leader ever.
    The Labour Party hate Blair because of Iraq, which to be fair I don't think is that unreasonable.
    Tories also used to hate Blair because he fooled them into being the most enthusiastic supporters of Iraq, but they've moved on. He's now handy for beating SKS up for being crap by comparison, and Labour lefties for repudiating his electoral success.
    Not so. If you weren't there, see

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_February_2003_anti-war_protests#London

    Sane tories despised IDS by this stage as much as everybody else did. Lots of examples of Col & Mrs Faggot-Baiter of the Old Rectory, Turnipshire were on that protest.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,140
    Leon said:

    glw said:

    MaxPB said:

    glw said:

    Tribune rally opened by @zarahsultana: “Want to open this rally with solidarity for our comrade Andy McDonald.” (Cue enormous applause). Says the current Labour leadership is “shameful.” Attacks the “Blairites.” #Lab21

    Sultana attacks the “Blairite clique” which she says is dominating the leadership, “gathering in drinks receptions with Peter Mandelson” [boos] “reliving the 1980s and 1990s.”

    More cheers when Sultana says “it’s an absolute disgrace that the leadership have let a scum newspaper have a stand at conference this year.”


    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1442555117182537728

    What an idiot, if the Labour leadership was dominated by a "Blairite clique" then Labour would be ahead in the polls and idiots like Sultana would have been booted out ages ago.
    Ultimately Labour seems like a party where half of the MPs don't want to win over the 2-3m Tory voters they need to get a majority. They'd rather stay in opposition than win the votes of the scum who had the temerity to vote Tory.
    The Tories are much better at politics than Labour. It's not even close.
    The Tories aren't very good at politics. They have some clever ideas and some terrible ideas, and they make lots of mistakes - and they can boast the odd triumph

    They are only in government forever because the Labour Party is inconceivably terrible at politics, and has been for about 15 years now. They've lost Scotland, they've lost the Red Wall, they've lost any sense of unity and coherence, they elected a terrorist-loving traitor as a leader, they got their worst electoral result since the Harrowing of the North, so they elected a humanoid coffin lid as the next leader, now they are trailing a government which cannot organise enough petrol for ambulances

    FFS. Just get rid of Labour. REPLACE
    No, I think the Tories instinctively know how to win votes. They know that winning votes is how to stay in power. The reason old people are being spared rising taxes is that naked political calculation, though a better opposition would make them pay for it.

    Labour are most at ease when they're talking about themselves rather than talking to voters and trying to win them over. Look at all of the big discussions from the conference, it's Labour talking about Labour to Labour.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 40,900

    FF43 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    Is it not the case that lots of qualified hgv drivers have switched to driving local deliveries as the conditions are better?
    That’s the anecdotal evidence - some have moved to more sociable jobs driving smaller vehicles locally, and others have taken better pay offers to switch company on the HGVs.

    There’s apparently a wide variation in terms and conditions across the industry, for example some companies insist you sleep in your cab, while others cover a travel inn when away from home.
    So in short Redwood has a point.
    Maybe the UK should learn from the EU which generally has better conditions for lorry drivers than the UK AND Freedom of Movement.

    Lorry drivers benefit from freedom of movement for reasons that ought to be obvious, but apparently aren't. Lorry drivers, quite literally need freedom to move.
    Do you have some data on the better conditions - what they consist of, etc?
    Decent espresso at motorway service stations, Galois cigarettes, fresh croissants, that kind of thing.
  • RobD said:

    Is it acceptable for a senior politician to publicly call opponents scum

    Acceptable 17% Unacceptable 70 %

    Working class voters

    Acceptable 17% Unacceptable 71%

    Yougov 27th September

    What do those scum voters know?
    "This Bounty Hunter Tory is my kind of scum: fearless and inventive!"
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,481
    edited September 27
    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    For those who think the fuel crisis is fabricated there are some questions.

    So you think there is a shortage of tanker drivers. If not then it is reasonable to think the fuel crisis is fabricated.

    If you do think that there is a shortage of tanker drivers then you must accept that that would mean less fuel delivered to petrol stations. If less fuel is delivered to petrol stations then there will be a shortage.

    If there is a shortage, and you don't know when it will be alleviated, then it is rational to try to get petrol.

    Hence not panicking but rational.

    It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. People are panic buying because they know that other people will panic buy.

    I filled up on Friday morning when without this nonsense I would have filled up on Friday afternoon. It will last me until the end of October. I don't expect to have any problems filling up then.
    If you filled up on Friday morning you are what several contributors to PB would call a moron.

    You don't strike me as a moron.
    Morons are other people doing panic buying, not oneself being sensibly cautious by not being caught short with only half a tank.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 40,900
    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    Starmer's gonna get heckled during his speech.

    He'll have to ad lib something inspirational like, "Nobody is ruling out paying anybody £15 an hour!"
    The pressure the raise the minimum wage is going to become a lot lower over the next few years as labour shortages start to bite and employers in the lower end services sectors have to raise hourly rates. Minimum wage was a policy for an era of free movement of cheap labour undercutting low wage workers.

    They're constantly fighting the last war. The next one is already older voters leeching off working age people, it's not just happening here. All across the western world where the number of workers per retired person is declining older voters want a larger and larger slice of the pie.
    Exactly this.

    The next battle is the one between the generations.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 10,137
    edited September 27

    Tribune rally opened by @zarahsultana: “Want to open this rally with solidarity for our comrade Andy McDonald.” (Cue enormous applause). Says the current Labour leadership is “shameful.” Attacks the “Blairites.” #Lab21

    Sultana attacks the “Blairite clique” which she says is dominating the leadership, “gathering in drinks receptions with Peter Mandelson” [boos] “reliving the 1980s and 1990s.”

    More cheers when Sultana says “it’s an absolute disgrace that the leadership have let a scum newspaper have a stand at conference this year.”


    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1442555117182537728

    Christ
    Isn't this just Zara being Zara?

    Only a very few years out of a paid office in the NUS.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,241

    CatMan said:

    Errr, has this been posted yet?

    Westminster voting intention:

    CON: 39% (-2)
    LAB: 36% (+6)
    LDEM: 9% (-4)

    via @IpsosMORI
    , 17 - 23 September,
    Chgs. w/ Aug

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1442471664495697923

    Yes and is the source of the header

    However tonight's RedfieldWilton poll has the conservatives unchanged on a 6 point lead and Boris 41/31 as best PM

    Redfield & Wilton Strategies
    2h
    Westminster Voting Intention (27 Sept):

    Conservative 41% (–)
    Labour 35% (–)
    Liberal Democrat 10% (+2)
    Green 5% (-2)
    Scottish National Party 4% (–)
    Reform UK 3% (–)
    Other 2% (–)

    Changes +/- 20 Sept
    Does it get better every time you post this opinion poll?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,435
    edited September 27

    CatMan said:

    At the next election, no one will remember the fuel crisis, and no one will remember the Labour Party Conference

    Indeed.

    But they may well remember the coming £20 UC cut.

    Especially in the Red Wall.

    I will be surprised if the UC cut actually happens
    I thought that too but it's getting very late to stop the cut happening now.

    I think there is a small but meaningful chance of the cut being reinstated in a month or two as the impact is felt across the country but that would effectively be the government avoiding a u-turn at the cost of an abject surrender.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,514
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    glw said:

    MaxPB said:

    glw said:

    Tribune rally opened by @zarahsultana: “Want to open this rally with solidarity for our comrade Andy McDonald.” (Cue enormous applause). Says the current Labour leadership is “shameful.” Attacks the “Blairites.” #Lab21

    Sultana attacks the “Blairite clique” which she says is dominating the leadership, “gathering in drinks receptions with Peter Mandelson” [boos] “reliving the 1980s and 1990s.”

    More cheers when Sultana says “it’s an absolute disgrace that the leadership have let a scum newspaper have a stand at conference this year.”


    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1442555117182537728

    What an idiot, if the Labour leadership was dominated by a "Blairite clique" then Labour would be ahead in the polls and idiots like Sultana would have been booted out ages ago.
    Ultimately Labour seems like a party where half of the MPs don't want to win over the 2-3m Tory voters they need to get a majority. They'd rather stay in opposition than win the votes of the scum who had the temerity to vote Tory.
    The Tories are much better at politics than Labour. It's not even close.
    The Tories aren't very good at politics. They have some clever ideas and some terrible ideas, and they make lots of mistakes - and they can boast the odd triumph

    They are only in government forever because the Labour Party is inconceivably terrible at politics, and has been for about 15 years now. They've lost Scotland, they've lost the Red Wall, they've lost any sense of unity and coherence, they elected a terrorist-loving traitor as a leader, they got their worst electoral result since the Harrowing of the North, so they elected a humanoid coffin lid as the next leader, now they are trailing a government which cannot organise enough petrol for ambulances

    FFS. Just get rid of Labour. REPLACE
    No, I think the Tories instinctively know how to win votes. They know that winning votes is how to stay in power. The reason old people are being spared rising taxes is that naked political calculation, though a better opposition would make them pay for it.

    Labour are most at ease when they're talking about themselves rather than talking to voters and trying to win them over. Look at all of the big discussions from the conference, it's Labour talking about Labour to Labour.
    "No, I think the Tories instinctively know how to win votes. They know that winning votes is how to stay in power"


    Well, QED. This is surely the base-line of competence for any serious political party. The Tories still have that reflex instinct, This Will Win Votes So Do It. This does not make them a genius party, just average. OK. Prone to errors but functional.

    Labour are way below even that. They have lost the electoral reflex. How To Win Votes. It's like losing the ability to get an erection. It is fairly fundamental if you want a marriage with the electorate.

    Look at those quotes from Sultana about three-times-election-winning Tony Blair. And weep for Labour (with joy or horror or both)
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 1,210

    FF43 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    Is it not the case that lots of qualified hgv drivers have switched to driving local deliveries as the conditions are better?
    That’s the anecdotal evidence - some have moved to more sociable jobs driving smaller vehicles locally, and others have taken better pay offers to switch company on the HGVs.

    There’s apparently a wide variation in terms and conditions across the industry, for example some companies insist you sleep in your cab, while others cover a travel inn when away from home.
    So in short Redwood has a point.
    Maybe the UK should learn from the EU which generally has better conditions for lorry drivers than the UK AND Freedom of Movement.

    Lorry drivers benefit from freedom of movement for reasons that ought to be obvious, but apparently aren't. Lorry drivers, quite literally need freedom to move.
    Then the lib dems should stand on a platform to join the single market and freedom of movement and say so
    Why would you be recommending a policy you don't agree with to a party you won't vote for?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 42,303
    MattW said:


    Tribune rally opened by @zarahsultana: “Want to open this rally with solidarity for our comrade Andy McDonald.” (Cue enormous applause). Says the current Labour leadership is “shameful.” Attacks the “Blairites.” #Lab21

    Sultana attacks the “Blairite clique” which she says is dominating the leadership, “gathering in drinks receptions with Peter Mandelson” [boos] “reliving the 1980s and 1990s.”

    More cheers when Sultana says “it’s an absolute disgrace that the leadership have let a scum newspaper have a stand at conference this year.”


    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1442555117182537728

    Christ
    Isn't this just Zara being Zara?

    Only a very few years out of a paid office in the NUS.
    Even by the standards of the NUS, that must have been a thin field.

    There must be a non-trivial risk she is the next Laura Pidcock - beloved of the Loony Left for her wild rhetoric, then loses as her (in this case quite marginal) seat as her constituents decide that somebody charging around behaving like a wannabe dictator and neglecting them isn’t what they actually want.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 10,137
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Worth noting that every Labour conference in history has been deemed a shambles on PB. In fairness, the same probably applies to the Tory and Lib conferences.

    Fake news.

    The 2007 Labour conference was brilliant, everyone said so.

    Let’s be clear: this is a mad one. You won’t have heard it anywhere else, but you can take it from me. At the age of 38, this is my 17th consecutive Labour Party conference, and I’ve never been to one quite like this.

    It’s in the nature of collective hysteria that no single act can be adduced to prove its existence. But there is a fin de siecle, self-destructive, decadent craziness about Conference 2007. Somewhere in the wads of twenty somethings and thirtywouldbes jamming the chintzy Bournemouth bars long after they’re normally silent lurks the jitterbugging desperation of the Twenties before the Crash, Berlin between the wars, London as Imperial Glory died with its queen. The collective psyche of this group of individuals who’ve never had it so good has rarely been so uncertain.

    This is not a columnar conceit. I do not really have a thesis; no point to prove. I can only tentatively explain this atmosphere. But nor am I wrong. This mood is as real as the grief in the church. I am simply reporting what is here.

    Perhaps the magnitude of the moment we face is too great for us collectively to bear. Shortly there will be an election, in which Labour will increase its majority, and in so doing utterly shatter the glass paradigm of cyclical politics which has contained us for the century since 1906. This ought to herald another decade of strong, confident, consensual Labour government. Which will finally and irrevocably transform the nature of politics and civic life in Britain.

    That is a frightening responsibility. The young princes who now stride the parade ground with the confidence born of aristocratic schooling can never be afraid. They never have been. Like latter day Pushkins drilled in the elite academy of Brownian blitzkrieg, they are bursting with their sense of destiny. It’s not the Milibands, the Ballses or the Burnhams who are unconsciously nervous. This is the moment for which they were created. They are ready.


    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2007/09/labour-majority-increase
    One of the reasons that piece is endlessly rehashed on here is that it is quite a brilliant chunk of writing. Knowingly hyperbolic, wittily hysterical, that is a writer inhaling pure oxygen (and maybe a bit of coke) and lovin' it
    Whatever became of Sion Simon ?
    MEP up until 2019. No idea since.

    Heavily involved in a medical charity for a condition he has, called something unpronounceable but bully to him for making the difference.

    There will shortly be an election at which he will win with an increased majority.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,241
    ydoethur said:

    CatMan said:

    glw said:

    glw said:

    Tribune rally opened by @zarahsultana: “Want to open this rally with solidarity for our comrade Andy McDonald.” (Cue enormous applause). Says the current Labour leadership is “shameful.” Attacks the “Blairites.” #Lab21

    Sultana attacks the “Blairite clique” which she says is dominating the leadership, “gathering in drinks receptions with Peter Mandelson” [boos] “reliving the 1980s and 1990s.”

    More cheers when Sultana says “it’s an absolute disgrace that the leadership have let a scum newspaper have a stand at conference this year.”


    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1442555117182537728

    What an idiot, if the Labour leadership was dominated by a "Blairite clique" then Labour would be ahead in the polls and idiots like Sultana would have been booted out ages ago.
    Reliving the 1990s?

    Yes. When Labour last defeated the Tories and won power after a long long period in opposition.
    Imagine a Liverpool fan who didn't like Kenny Dalglish, or a United fan who hated Ferguson, it's not easy is it? The very idea is fantastical. There is something deeply wrong with the Labour Party when so many members revile their most successful leader ever.
    The Labour Party hate Blair because of Iraq, which to be fair I don't think is that unreasonable.
    Tories also used to hate Blair because he fooled them into being the most enthusiastic supporters of Iraq, but they've moved on. He's now handy for beating SKS up for being crap by comparison, and Labour lefties for repudiating his electoral success.
    I voted for Blair twice
    Which is why you'll never be a true Tory according to the only Tory in the village, despite decades of working with the party.

    Similarly I voted for him once, so that's me excommunicated for life according to the only Tory.
    Strangely, of all the British politicians that have passed like distant comets across my life, I can only think of two that I would never under any circumstances (including brutal testicular torture before being boiled alive if I refused) consider voting for.

    One is Michael Gove.

    The other is Tony Blair.

    I don’t know why. I do actually kind of admire his extraordinary talents as a speaker, as a vote winner, an organiser and a sheer election winning machine.

    But somehow he always made me writhe with horror.
    For me, Johnson trumps everyone... even Gove.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,140
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    Starmer's gonna get heckled during his speech.

    He'll have to ad lib something inspirational like, "Nobody is ruling out paying anybody £15 an hour!"
    The pressure the raise the minimum wage is going to become a lot lower over the next few years as labour shortages start to bite and employers in the lower end services sectors have to raise hourly rates. Minimum wage was a policy for an era of free movement of cheap labour undercutting low wage workers.

    They're constantly fighting the last war. The next one is already older voters leeching off working age people, it's not just happening here. All across the western world where the number of workers per retired person is declining older voters want a larger and larger slice of the pie.
    Exactly this.

    The next battle is the one between the generations.
    One of the benefits of having a walled labour market like Switzerland is that is hugely, hugely benefits younger people as higher wages for lower skilled labour is an effective transfer of wealth from older people to younger people because the cost of services rises faster than their incomes. The older leavers who voted to end free movement have essentially voted for massive pay rises for the young at their own expense.
  • ydoethur said:

    CatMan said:

    glw said:

    glw said:

    Tribune rally opened by @zarahsultana: “Want to open this rally with solidarity for our comrade Andy McDonald.” (Cue enormous applause). Says the current Labour leadership is “shameful.” Attacks the “Blairites.” #Lab21

    Sultana attacks the “Blairite clique” which she says is dominating the leadership, “gathering in drinks receptions with Peter Mandelson” [boos] “reliving the 1980s and 1990s.”

    More cheers when Sultana says “it’s an absolute disgrace that the leadership have let a scum newspaper have a stand at conference this year.”


    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1442555117182537728

    What an idiot, if the Labour leadership was dominated by a "Blairite clique" then Labour would be ahead in the polls and idiots like Sultana would have been booted out ages ago.
    Reliving the 1990s?

    Yes. When Labour last defeated the Tories and won power after a long long period in opposition.
    Imagine a Liverpool fan who didn't like Kenny Dalglish, or a United fan who hated Ferguson, it's not easy is it? The very idea is fantastical. There is something deeply wrong with the Labour Party when so many members revile their most successful leader ever.
    The Labour Party hate Blair because of Iraq, which to be fair I don't think is that unreasonable.
    Tories also used to hate Blair because he fooled them into being the most enthusiastic supporters of Iraq, but they've moved on. He's now handy for beating SKS up for being crap by comparison, and Labour lefties for repudiating his electoral success.
    I voted for Blair twice
    Which is why you'll never be a true Tory according to the only Tory in the village, despite decades of working with the party.

    Similarly I voted for him once, so that's me excommunicated for life according to the only Tory.
    Strangely, of all the British politicians that have passed like distant comets across my life, I can only think of two that I would never under any circumstances (including brutal testicular torture before being boiled alive if I refused) consider voting for.

    One is Michael Gove.

    The other is Tony Blair.

    I don’t know why. I do actually kind of admire his extraordinary talents as a speaker, as a vote winner, an organiser and a sheer election winning machine.

    But somehow he always made me writhe with horror.
    For me, Johnson trumps everyone... even Gove.
    Do you mind if I ask why?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 42,303

    ydoethur said:

    CatMan said:

    glw said:

    glw said:

    Tribune rally opened by @zarahsultana: “Want to open this rally with solidarity for our comrade Andy McDonald.” (Cue enormous applause). Says the current Labour leadership is “shameful.” Attacks the “Blairites.” #Lab21

    Sultana attacks the “Blairite clique” which she says is dominating the leadership, “gathering in drinks receptions with Peter Mandelson” [boos] “reliving the 1980s and 1990s.”

    More cheers when Sultana says “it’s an absolute disgrace that the leadership have let a scum newspaper have a stand at conference this year.”


    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1442555117182537728

    What an idiot, if the Labour leadership was dominated by a "Blairite clique" then Labour would be ahead in the polls and idiots like Sultana would have been booted out ages ago.
    Reliving the 1990s?

    Yes. When Labour last defeated the Tories and won power after a long long period in opposition.
    Imagine a Liverpool fan who didn't like Kenny Dalglish, or a United fan who hated Ferguson, it's not easy is it? The very idea is fantastical. There is something deeply wrong with the Labour Party when so many members revile their most successful leader ever.
    The Labour Party hate Blair because of Iraq, which to be fair I don't think is that unreasonable.
    Tories also used to hate Blair because he fooled them into being the most enthusiastic supporters of Iraq, but they've moved on. He's now handy for beating SKS up for being crap by comparison, and Labour lefties for repudiating his electoral success.
    I voted for Blair twice
    Which is why you'll never be a true Tory according to the only Tory in the village, despite decades of working with the party.

    Similarly I voted for him once, so that's me excommunicated for life according to the only Tory.
    Strangely, of all the British politicians that have passed like distant comets across my life, I can only think of two that I would never under any circumstances (including brutal testicular torture before being boiled alive if I refused) consider voting for.

    One is Michael Gove.

    The other is Tony Blair.

    I don’t know why. I do actually kind of admire his extraordinary talents as a speaker, as a vote winner, an organiser and a sheer election winning machine.

    But somehow he always made me writhe with horror.
    For me, Johnson trumps everyone... even Gove.
    Well, I despise Johnson and didn’t vote for him.

    But had I thought there was a risk of a Corbynite majority, and I lived in a swing seat, I can just about imagine it happening.

    With Gove, I would vote even for a Labour Party led by Zarah Sultana to keep him out.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 18,922
    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    Is it not the case that lots of qualified hgv drivers have switched to driving local deliveries as the conditions are better?
    That’s the anecdotal evidence - some have moved to more sociable jobs driving smaller vehicles locally, and others have taken better pay offers to switch company on the HGVs.

    There’s apparently a wide variation in terms and conditions across the industry, for example some companies insist you sleep in your cab, while others cover a travel inn when away from home.
    So in short Redwood has a point.
    Maybe the UK should learn from the EU which generally has better conditions for lorry drivers than the UK AND Freedom of Movement.

    Lorry drivers benefit from freedom of movement for reasons that ought to be obvious, but apparently aren't. Lorry drivers, quite literally need freedom to move.
    Do you have some data on the better conditions - what they consist of, etc?
    Decent espresso at motorway service stations, Galois cigarettes, fresh croissants, that kind of thing.
    At every French motorway station I have been to, the coffee has been appealing. Actually worse than Costa Coffee.

    As for the food - was actually considerably worse than some UK services.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,490
    edited September 27

    CatMan said:

    Errr, has this been posted yet?

    Westminster voting intention:

    CON: 39% (-2)
    LAB: 36% (+6)
    LDEM: 9% (-4)

    via @IpsosMORI
    , 17 - 23 September,
    Chgs. w/ Aug

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1442471664495697923

    Yes and is the source of the header

    However tonight's RedfieldWilton poll has the conservatives unchanged on a 6 point lead and Boris 41/31 as best PM

    Redfield & Wilton Strategies
    2h
    Westminster Voting Intention (27 Sept):

    Conservative 41% (–)
    Labour 35% (–)
    Liberal Democrat 10% (+2)
    Green 5% (-2)
    Scottish National Party 4% (–)
    Reform UK 3% (–)
    Other 2% (–)

    Changes +/- 20 Sept
    Does it get better every time you post this opinion poll?
    You have to understand that the aforementioned poll is crap when its bad for the Tories and ok when it isn't.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,514
    Farooq said:

    FF43 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    Is it not the case that lots of qualified hgv drivers have switched to driving local deliveries as the conditions are better?
    That’s the anecdotal evidence - some have moved to more sociable jobs driving smaller vehicles locally, and others have taken better pay offers to switch company on the HGVs.

    There’s apparently a wide variation in terms and conditions across the industry, for example some companies insist you sleep in your cab, while others cover a travel inn when away from home.
    So in short Redwood has a point.
    Maybe the UK should learn from the EU which generally has better conditions for lorry drivers than the UK AND Freedom of Movement.

    Lorry drivers benefit from freedom of movement for reasons that ought to be obvious, but apparently aren't. Lorry drivers, quite literally need freedom to move.
    Then the lib dems should stand on a platform to join the single market and freedom of movement and say so
    Why would you be recommending a policy you don't agree with to a party you won't vote for?
    It's a massive open goal for the Lib Dems. Rejoin the Single Market, bring back FoM. Highly popular with a lot of rich, articulate voters. And young people. And big business

    Labour can't do it because they want to win back Brexiteers in the north. The Lib Dems have the luxury of ignoring the north, where they win virtually no seats, but they could sweep up quite a few southern seats with that policy, maybe also Scotland, and university seats everywhere

    It would be an amazing mistake is that is not the Lib Dem Manifesto position in 2024. Rejoin the SM, FoM
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 45,236
    edited September 27

    CatMan said:

    Errr, has this been posted yet?

    Westminster voting intention:

    CON: 39% (-2)
    LAB: 36% (+6)
    LDEM: 9% (-4)

    via @IpsosMORI
    , 17 - 23 September,
    Chgs. w/ Aug

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1442471664495697923

    Yes and is the source of the header

    However tonight's RedfieldWilton poll has the conservatives unchanged on a 6 point lead and Boris 41/31 as best PM

    Redfield & Wilton Strategies
    2h
    Westminster Voting Intention (27 Sept):

    Conservative 41% (–)
    Labour 35% (–)
    Liberal Democrat 10% (+2)
    Green 5% (-2)
    Scottish National Party 4% (–)
    Reform UK 3% (–)
    Other 2% (–)

    Changes +/- 20 Sept
    Does it get better every time you post this opinion poll?
    It does provide balance

    But then you have just reposted it !!!!!!
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,481
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    Starmer's gonna get heckled during his speech.

    He'll have to ad lib something inspirational like, "Nobody is ruling out paying anybody £15 an hour!"
    The pressure the raise the minimum wage is going to become a lot lower over the next few years as labour shortages start to bite and employers in the lower end services sectors have to raise hourly rates. Minimum wage was a policy for an era of free movement of cheap labour undercutting low wage workers.

    They're constantly fighting the last war. The next one is already older voters leeching off working age people, it's not just happening here. All across the western world where the number of workers per retired person is declining older voters want a larger and larger slice of the pie.
    Exactly this.

    The next battle is the one between the generations.
    I remember reading an article in the Economist saying this in about 1997.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 1,210
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    glw said:

    MaxPB said:

    glw said:

    Tribune rally opened by @zarahsultana: “Want to open this rally with solidarity for our comrade Andy McDonald.” (Cue enormous applause). Says the current Labour leadership is “shameful.” Attacks the “Blairites.” #Lab21

    Sultana attacks the “Blairite clique” which she says is dominating the leadership, “gathering in drinks receptions with Peter Mandelson” [boos] “reliving the 1980s and 1990s.”

    More cheers when Sultana says “it’s an absolute disgrace that the leadership have let a scum newspaper have a stand at conference this year.”


    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1442555117182537728

    What an idiot, if the Labour leadership was dominated by a "Blairite clique" then Labour would be ahead in the polls and idiots like Sultana would have been booted out ages ago.
    Ultimately Labour seems like a party where half of the MPs don't want to win over the 2-3m Tory voters they need to get a majority. They'd rather stay in opposition than win the votes of the scum who had the temerity to vote Tory.
    The Tories are much better at politics than Labour. It's not even close.
    The Tories aren't very good at politics. They have some clever ideas and some terrible ideas, and they make lots of mistakes - and they can boast the odd triumph

    They are only in government forever because the Labour Party is inconceivably terrible at politics, and has been for about 15 years now. They've lost Scotland, they've lost the Red Wall, they've lost any sense of unity and coherence, they elected a terrorist-loving traitor as a leader, they got their worst electoral result since the Harrowing of the North, so they elected a humanoid coffin lid as the next leader, now they are trailing a government which cannot organise enough petrol for ambulances

    FFS. Just get rid of Labour. REPLACE
    No, I think the Tories instinctively know how to win votes. They know that winning votes is how to stay in power. The reason old people are being spared rising taxes is that naked political calculation, though a better opposition would make them pay for it.

    Labour are most at ease when they're talking about themselves rather than talking to voters and trying to win them over. Look at all of the big discussions from the conference, it's Labour talking about Labour to Labour.
    The political ecosystem is also important. Conservatives have more favourable press, and big money donors. These make for better communication and reinforcement.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 16,609
    edited September 27
    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:


    Tribune rally opened by @zarahsultana: “Want to open this rally with solidarity for our comrade Andy McDonald.” (Cue enormous applause). Says the current Labour leadership is “shameful.” Attacks the “Blairites.” #Lab21

    Sultana attacks the “Blairite clique” which she says is dominating the leadership, “gathering in drinks receptions with Peter Mandelson” [boos] “reliving the 1980s and 1990s.”

    More cheers when Sultana says “it’s an absolute disgrace that the leadership have let a scum newspaper have a stand at conference this year.”


    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1442555117182537728

    Christ
    Isn't this just Zara being Zara?

    Only a very few years out of a paid office in the NUS.
    Even by the standards of the NUS, that must have been a thin field.

    There must be a non-trivial risk she is the next Laura Pidcock - beloved of the Loony Left for her wild rhetoric, then loses as her (in this case quite marginal) seat as her constituents decide that somebody charging around behaving like a wannabe dictator and neglecting them isn’t what they actually want.
    Sultana is heavily backed and promoted by the left. Just reflect how you have heard of her tonight. How did she get her time on that stage this evening. There are many more senior left wing MPs who might have reasonably expected to be ahead of her in the queue. She is being positioned quite actively as a British AOC. We get a steady steam of Sultana clips in my CLP Facebook group.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 38,491
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    Starmer's gonna get heckled during his speech.

    He'll have to ad lib something inspirational like, "Nobody is ruling out paying anybody £15 an hour!"
    The pressure the raise the minimum wage is going to become a lot lower over the next few years as labour shortages start to bite and employers in the lower end services sectors have to raise hourly rates. Minimum wage was a policy for an era of free movement of cheap labour undercutting low wage workers.

    They're constantly fighting the last war. The next one is already older voters leeching off working age people, it's not just happening here. All across the western world where the number of workers per retired person is declining older voters want a larger and larger slice of the pie.
    Exactly this.

    The next battle is the one between the generations.
    One of the benefits of having a walled labour market like Switzerland is that is hugely, hugely benefits younger people as higher wages for lower skilled labour is an effective transfer of wealth from older people to younger people because the cost of services rises faster than their incomes. The older leavers who voted to end free movement have essentially voted for massive pay rises for the young at their own expense.
    I’ve seen it described as “a wealth transfer from the Waitrose class to the working class”.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 18,922
    edited September 27
    ydoethur said:

    CatMan said:

    glw said:

    glw said:

    Tribune rally opened by @zarahsultana: “Want to open this rally with solidarity for our comrade Andy McDonald.” (Cue enormous applause). Says the current Labour leadership is “shameful.” Attacks the “Blairites.” #Lab21

    Sultana attacks the “Blairite clique” which she says is dominating the leadership, “gathering in drinks receptions with Peter Mandelson” [boos] “reliving the 1980s and 1990s.”

    More cheers when Sultana says “it’s an absolute disgrace that the leadership have let a scum newspaper have a stand at conference this year.”


    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1442555117182537728

    What an idiot, if the Labour leadership was dominated by a "Blairite clique" then Labour would be ahead in the polls and idiots like Sultana would have been booted out ages ago.
    Reliving the 1990s?

    Yes. When Labour last defeated the Tories and won power after a long long period in opposition.
    Imagine a Liverpool fan who didn't like Kenny Dalglish, or a United fan who hated Ferguson, it's not easy is it? The very idea is fantastical. There is something deeply wrong with the Labour Party when so many members revile their most successful leader ever.
    The Labour Party hate Blair because of Iraq, which to be fair I don't think is that unreasonable.
    Tories also used to hate Blair because he fooled them into being the most enthusiastic supporters of Iraq, but they've moved on. He's now handy for beating SKS up for being crap by comparison, and Labour lefties for repudiating his electoral success.
    I voted for Blair twice
    Which is why you'll never be a true Tory according to the only Tory in the village, despite decades of working with the party.

    Similarly I voted for him once, so that's me excommunicated for life according to the only Tory.
    Strangely, of all the British politicians that have passed like distant comets across my life, I can only think of two that I would never under any circumstances (including brutal testicular torture before being boiled alive if I refused) consider voting for.

    One is Michael Gove.

    The other is Tony Blair.

    I don’t know why. I do actually kind of admire his extraordinary talents as a speaker, as a vote winner, an organiser and a sheer election winning machine.

    But somehow he always made me writhe with horror.
    I met Tony Blair before he became more than a back bencher. He was an actual chameleon - a couple of people at the same event noticed (as I did) that he started speaking in their accent, after a few words of conversation.

    I am convinced that this is the key to Blair - he exists as a weird reflection of the observer. There is no actual Blair.
  • MaxPB said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    Is it not the case that lots of qualified hgv drivers have switched to driving local deliveries as the conditions are better?
    That’s the anecdotal evidence - some have moved to more sociable jobs driving smaller vehicles locally, and others have taken better pay offers to switch company on the HGVs.

    There’s apparently a wide variation in terms and conditions across the industry, for example some companies insist you sleep in your cab, while others cover a travel inn when away from home.
    So in short Redwood has a point.
    Maybe the UK should learn from the EU which generally has better conditions for lorry drivers than the UK AND Freedom of Movement.

    Lorry drivers benefit from freedom of movement for reasons that ought to be obvious, but apparently aren't. Lorry drivers, quite literally need freedom to move.
    Do you have some data on the better conditions - what they consist of, etc?
    Some data on gross wages here: https://trans.info/en/eu-report-reveals-pay-gap-between-western-and-eastern-european-truckers-226234.

    Big difference between East and West Europe, which presumably explains why Eastern Europe drivers previously came to the UK, but not why they didn't stick to France, Germany etc, instead, where wages are higher.

    Facilities for truck drivers appear to be better in other Western European countries too: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/27/getting-into-europe-a-relief-hgv-driver-on-uk-crisis

    I think there will be an overdue improvement in HGV driver conditions in the UK. Other workers won't be so lucky, including the McDonald's workers that @Philip_Thompson disparages so.
    I don't disparage McDonald's workers. I'm happy to have worked for them myselves and I respect the company and its workers so where did you get that from?

    I just don't think McDonald's is the sort of company that necessarily should or could be paying 50% more than its competitors pay - and I certainly don't think its realistic that the starting wage for McDonald's employees would ever be higher than what HGV drivers were getting until recently.

    But as a company they do tend to pay above minimum wage anyway as far as I know, they did when I worked there. McDonald's where a much, much better employer than the Co-Op which I worked for before them.
    What's interesting is that McDonald's and other low skilled employers may need to start paying significantly more competitive wages. My wife worked for McDonald's in Basel when she was in school and they paid her 23 Francs per hour and that was over 10 years ago.

    If we really are heading in the same direction as Switzerland then I expect the working poor will cease to exist over the next decade as payrises pull them out of poverty.
    When I worked in Oslo, where everyone is well-paid, there were noticeably fewer staff in a McDonalds than in an equivalent UK one. So "fast food" simply became "slow food".
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 42,303
    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    glw said:

    MaxPB said:

    glw said:

    Tribune rally opened by @zarahsultana: “Want to open this rally with solidarity for our comrade Andy McDonald.” (Cue enormous applause). Says the current Labour leadership is “shameful.” Attacks the “Blairites.” #Lab21

    Sultana attacks the “Blairite clique” which she says is dominating the leadership, “gathering in drinks receptions with Peter Mandelson” [boos] “reliving the 1980s and 1990s.”

    More cheers when Sultana says “it’s an absolute disgrace that the leadership have let a scum newspaper have a stand at conference this year.”


    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1442555117182537728

    What an idiot, if the Labour leadership was dominated by a "Blairite clique" then Labour would be ahead in the polls and idiots like Sultana would have been booted out ages ago.
    Ultimately Labour seems like a party where half of the MPs don't want to win over the 2-3m Tory voters they need to get a majority. They'd rather stay in opposition than win the votes of the scum who had the temerity to vote Tory.
    The Tories are much better at politics than Labour. It's not even close.
    The Tories aren't very good at politics. They have some clever ideas and some terrible ideas, and they make lots of mistakes - and they can boast the odd triumph

    They are only in government forever because the Labour Party is inconceivably terrible at politics, and has been for about 15 years now. They've lost Scotland, they've lost the Red Wall, they've lost any sense of unity and coherence, they elected a terrorist-loving traitor as a leader, they got their worst electoral result since the Harrowing of the North, so they elected a humanoid coffin lid as the next leader, now they are trailing a government which cannot organise enough petrol for ambulances

    FFS. Just get rid of Labour. REPLACE
    No, I think the Tories instinctively know how to win votes. They know that winning votes is how to stay in power. The reason old people are being spared rising taxes is that naked political calculation, though a better opposition would make them pay for it.

    Labour are most at ease when they're talking about themselves rather than talking to voters and trying to win them over. Look at all of the big discussions from the conference, it's Labour talking about Labour to Labour.
    The political ecosystem is also important. Conservatives have more favourable press, and big money donors. These make for better communication and reinforcement.
    You have to ask why that is though. It’s a mere twenty years since with the ambivalent exception of the Telegraph the press was more or less solidly Labour. Plus, if the Tories can call on the banks Labour have the funds of the unions.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,481

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    Is it not the case that lots of qualified hgv drivers have switched to driving local deliveries as the conditions are better?
    That’s the anecdotal evidence - some have moved to more sociable jobs driving smaller vehicles locally, and others have taken better pay offers to switch company on the HGVs.

    There’s apparently a wide variation in terms and conditions across the industry, for example some companies insist you sleep in your cab, while others cover a travel inn when away from home.
    So in short Redwood has a point.
    Maybe the UK should learn from the EU which generally has better conditions for lorry drivers than the UK AND Freedom of Movement.

    Lorry drivers benefit from freedom of movement for reasons that ought to be obvious, but apparently aren't. Lorry drivers, quite literally need freedom to move.
    Do you have some data on the better conditions - what they consist of, etc?
    Decent espresso at motorway service stations, Galois cigarettes, fresh croissants, that kind of thing.
    At every French motorway station I have been to, the coffee has been appealing. Actually worse than Costa Coffee.

    As for the food - was actually considerably worse than some UK services.
    British service stations have improved immeasurably over the last 20 years, admittedly from a low base.
  • MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    Starmer's gonna get heckled during his speech.

    He'll have to ad lib something inspirational like, "Nobody is ruling out paying anybody £15 an hour!"
    The pressure the raise the minimum wage is going to become a lot lower over the next few years as labour shortages start to bite and employers in the lower end services sectors have to raise hourly rates. Minimum wage was a policy for an era of free movement of cheap labour undercutting low wage workers.

    They're constantly fighting the last war. The next one is already older voters leeching off working age people, it's not just happening here. All across the western world where the number of workers per retired person is declining older voters want a larger and larger slice of the pie.
    Exactly this.

    The next battle is the one between the generations.
    One of the benefits of having a walled labour market like Switzerland is that is hugely, hugely benefits younger people as higher wages for lower skilled labour is an effective transfer of wealth from older people to younger people because the cost of services rises faster than their incomes. The older leavers who voted to end free movement have essentially voted for massive pay rises for the young at their own expense.
    Indeed. People act as if the only way to support the older retirees is having more and more workers - and if the workers were highly-skilled, highly-productive, well-paid and self-sufficient that'd be the case.

    But its not true. We've instead had a perverted economic model where successful people can struggle to move here for a well paying job, but anyone unskilled and unemployed can just get on the bus and get a minimum wage job and "in work benefits" and housing benefit.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 42,303

    ydoethur said:

    CatMan said:

    glw said:

    glw said:

    Tribune rally opened by @zarahsultana: “Want to open this rally with solidarity for our comrade Andy McDonald.” (Cue enormous applause). Says the current Labour leadership is “shameful.” Attacks the “Blairites.” #Lab21

    Sultana attacks the “Blairite clique” which she says is dominating the leadership, “gathering in drinks receptions with Peter Mandelson” [boos] “reliving the 1980s and 1990s.”

    More cheers when Sultana says “it’s an absolute disgrace that the leadership have let a scum newspaper have a stand at conference this year.”


    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1442555117182537728

    What an idiot, if the Labour leadership was dominated by a "Blairite clique" then Labour would be ahead in the polls and idiots like Sultana would have been booted out ages ago.
    Reliving the 1990s?

    Yes. When Labour last defeated the Tories and won power after a long long period in opposition.
    Imagine a Liverpool fan who didn't like Kenny Dalglish, or a United fan who hated Ferguson, it's not easy is it? The very idea is fantastical. There is something deeply wrong with the Labour Party when so many members revile their most successful leader ever.
    The Labour Party hate Blair because of Iraq, which to be fair I don't think is that unreasonable.
    Tories also used to hate Blair because he fooled them into being the most enthusiastic supporters of Iraq, but they've moved on. He's now handy for beating SKS up for being crap by comparison, and Labour lefties for repudiating his electoral success.
    I voted for Blair twice
    Which is why you'll never be a true Tory according to the only Tory in the village, despite decades of working with the party.

    Similarly I voted for him once, so that's me excommunicated for life according to the only Tory.
    Strangely, of all the British politicians that have passed like distant comets across my life, I can only think of two that I would never under any circumstances (including brutal testicular torture before being boiled alive if I refused) consider voting for.

    One is Michael Gove.

    The other is Tony Blair.

    I don’t know why. I do actually kind of admire his extraordinary talents as a speaker, as a vote winner, an organiser and a sheer election winning machine.

    But somehow he always made me writhe with horror.
    I met Tony Blair before he became more than a back bencher. He was an actual chameleon - a couple of people at the same event noticed (as I did) that he started speaking in their accent, after a few words of conversation.

    I am convinced that this is the key to Blair - he exists as a weird reflection of the observer. There is no actual Blair.
    But was his face bovvered?

    (I now see that clip in a new light.)

    Good night.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,514
    edited September 27

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    Is it not the case that lots of qualified hgv drivers have switched to driving local deliveries as the conditions are better?
    That’s the anecdotal evidence - some have moved to more sociable jobs driving smaller vehicles locally, and others have taken better pay offers to switch company on the HGVs.

    There’s apparently a wide variation in terms and conditions across the industry, for example some companies insist you sleep in your cab, while others cover a travel inn when away from home.
    So in short Redwood has a point.
    Maybe the UK should learn from the EU which generally has better conditions for lorry drivers than the UK AND Freedom of Movement.

    Lorry drivers benefit from freedom of movement for reasons that ought to be obvious, but apparently aren't. Lorry drivers, quite literally need freedom to move.
    Do you have some data on the better conditions - what they consist of, etc?
    Decent espresso at motorway service stations, Galois cigarettes, fresh croissants, that kind of thing.
    At every French motorway station I have been to, the coffee has been appealing. Actually worse than Costa Coffee.

    As for the food - was actually considerably worse than some UK services.
    Yes, the idea that French autoroute service stations are a bastion of good food and coffee is badly damaged by, say, an actual visit to a French autoroute service station

    There are exceptions, but you generally get a coffee machine like in W H Smiths at Heston on the M4, and a tired selection of baguettes with thin cheese and ham, or a listlessly made cafe au lait. You don't even get the outlets of M&S and Waitrose or Pret where you might get an interesting sandwich

    I suspect Robert's memories of French autoroutes are deeply coloured by holiday journeys as a boy when you pulled over into the Relais Routier and you got confit de canard and a carafe of red wine for 2 quid and it was all home made and fresh, and, alas, largely gone now
  • Farooq said:

    FF43 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    Is it not the case that lots of qualified hgv drivers have switched to driving local deliveries as the conditions are better?
    That’s the anecdotal evidence - some have moved to more sociable jobs driving smaller vehicles locally, and others have taken better pay offers to switch company on the HGVs.

    There’s apparently a wide variation in terms and conditions across the industry, for example some companies insist you sleep in your cab, while others cover a travel inn when away from home.
    So in short Redwood has a point.
    Maybe the UK should learn from the EU which generally has better conditions for lorry drivers than the UK AND Freedom of Movement.

    Lorry drivers benefit from freedom of movement for reasons that ought to be obvious, but apparently aren't. Lorry drivers, quite literally need freedom to move.
    Then the lib dems should stand on a platform to join the single market and freedom of movement and say so
    Why would you be recommending a policy you don't agree with to a party you won't vote for?
    How do you know that

    There are circumstances I could vote for it but here in Wales a lib dem vote is a wasted vote
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 16,609

    ydoethur said:

    CatMan said:

    glw said:

    glw said:

    Tribune rally opened by @zarahsultana: “Want to open this rally with solidarity for our comrade Andy McDonald.” (Cue enormous applause). Says the current Labour leadership is “shameful.” Attacks the “Blairites.” #Lab21

    Sultana attacks the “Blairite clique” which she says is dominating the leadership, “gathering in drinks receptions with Peter Mandelson” [boos] “reliving the 1980s and 1990s.”

    More cheers when Sultana says “it’s an absolute disgrace that the leadership have let a scum newspaper have a stand at conference this year.”


    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1442555117182537728

    What an idiot, if the Labour leadership was dominated by a "Blairite clique" then Labour would be ahead in the polls and idiots like Sultana would have been booted out ages ago.
    Reliving the 1990s?

    Yes. When Labour last defeated the Tories and won power after a long long period in opposition.
    Imagine a Liverpool fan who didn't like Kenny Dalglish, or a United fan who hated Ferguson, it's not easy is it? The very idea is fantastical. There is something deeply wrong with the Labour Party when so many members revile their most successful leader ever.
    The Labour Party hate Blair because of Iraq, which to be fair I don't think is that unreasonable.
    Tories also used to hate Blair because he fooled them into being the most enthusiastic supporters of Iraq, but they've moved on. He's now handy for beating SKS up for being crap by comparison, and Labour lefties for repudiating his electoral success.
    I voted for Blair twice
    Which is why you'll never be a true Tory according to the only Tory in the village, despite decades of working with the party.

    Similarly I voted for him once, so that's me excommunicated for life according to the only Tory.
    Strangely, of all the British politicians that have passed like distant comets across my life, I can only think of two that I would never under any circumstances (including brutal testicular torture before being boiled alive if I refused) consider voting for.

    One is Michael Gove.

    The other is Tony Blair.

    I don’t know why. I do actually kind of admire his extraordinary talents as a speaker, as a vote winner, an organiser and a sheer election winning machine.

    But somehow he always made me writhe with horror.
    I met Tony Blair before he became more than a back bencher. He was an actual chameleon - a couple of people at the same event noticed (as I did) that he started speaking in their accent, after a few words of conversation.

    I am convinced that this is the key to Blair - he exists as a weird reflection of the observer. There is no actual Blair.
    In other words Blair listens to what people say and how they say it. He is not in a dumb broadcast mode.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,140
    edited September 27
    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    glw said:

    MaxPB said:

    glw said:

    Tribune rally opened by @zarahsultana: “Want to open this rally with solidarity for our comrade Andy McDonald.” (Cue enormous applause). Says the current Labour leadership is “shameful.” Attacks the “Blairites.” #Lab21

    Sultana attacks the “Blairite clique” which she says is dominating the leadership, “gathering in drinks receptions with Peter Mandelson” [boos] “reliving the 1980s and 1990s.”

    More cheers when Sultana says “it’s an absolute disgrace that the leadership have let a scum newspaper have a stand at conference this year.”


    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1442555117182537728

    What an idiot, if the Labour leadership was dominated by a "Blairite clique" then Labour would be ahead in the polls and idiots like Sultana would have been booted out ages ago.
    Ultimately Labour seems like a party where half of the MPs don't want to win over the 2-3m Tory voters they need to get a majority. They'd rather stay in opposition than win the votes of the scum who had the temerity to vote Tory.
    The Tories are much better at politics than Labour. It's not even close.
    The Tories aren't very good at politics. They have some clever ideas and some terrible ideas, and they make lots of mistakes - and they can boast the odd triumph

    They are only in government forever because the Labour Party is inconceivably terrible at politics, and has been for about 15 years now. They've lost Scotland, they've lost the Red Wall, they've lost any sense of unity and coherence, they elected a terrorist-loving traitor as a leader, they got their worst electoral result since the Harrowing of the North, so they elected a humanoid coffin lid as the next leader, now they are trailing a government which cannot organise enough petrol for ambulances

    FFS. Just get rid of Labour. REPLACE
    No, I think the Tories instinctively know how to win votes. They know that winning votes is how to stay in power. The reason old people are being spared rising taxes is that naked political calculation, though a better opposition would make them pay for it.

    Labour are most at ease when they're talking about themselves rather than talking to voters and trying to win them over. Look at all of the big discussions from the conference, it's Labour talking about Labour to Labour.
    The political ecosystem is also important. Conservatives have more favourable press, and big money donors. These make for better communication and reinforcement.
    Yes, the unions aren't big money donors at all and it isn't the fault of the public that no one wants to buy/read The Guardian and The Mirror, apparently not even the BBC where The Times is now the most read paper by employees.

    If they stopped banging on about their own internal hatred of the other bits of the Labour party they might actually win votes. As it stands it's interminable chatter about leadership processes, NEC election results, Union election results and which faction has the upper hand. It's difficult to get favourable press from that.
  • rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    Is it not the case that lots of qualified hgv drivers have switched to driving local deliveries as the conditions are better?
    That’s the anecdotal evidence - some have moved to more sociable jobs driving smaller vehicles locally, and others have taken better pay offers to switch company on the HGVs.

    There’s apparently a wide variation in terms and conditions across the industry, for example some companies insist you sleep in your cab, while others cover a travel inn when away from home.
    So in short Redwood has a point.
    Maybe the UK should learn from the EU which generally has better conditions for lorry drivers than the UK AND Freedom of Movement.

    Lorry drivers benefit from freedom of movement for reasons that ought to be obvious, but apparently aren't. Lorry drivers, quite literally need freedom to move.
    Do you have some data on the better conditions - what they consist of, etc?
    Decent espresso at motorway service stations, Galois cigarettes, fresh croissants, that kind of thing.
    At every French motorway station I have been to, the coffee has been appealing. Actually worse than Costa Coffee.

    As for the food - was actually considerably worse than some UK services.
    An appealing coffee is what generally gets me to stop at a services so that's in their favour.
  • CatMan said:

    At the next election, no one will remember the fuel crisis, and no one will remember the Labour Party Conference

    Indeed.

    But they may well remember the coming £20 UC cut.

    Especially in the Red Wall.

    I will be surprised if the UC cut actually happens
    I thought that too but it's getting very late to stop the cut happening now.

    I think there is a small but meaningful chance of the cut being reinstated in a month or two as the impact is felt across the country but that would effectively be the government avoiding a u-turn at the cost of an abject surrender.
    It is likely to be addressed in the budget on the 27th October
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 18,922
    Andy_JS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    Is it not the case that lots of qualified hgv drivers have switched to driving local deliveries as the conditions are better?
    That’s the anecdotal evidence - some have moved to more sociable jobs driving smaller vehicles locally, and others have taken better pay offers to switch company on the HGVs.

    There’s apparently a wide variation in terms and conditions across the industry, for example some companies insist you sleep in your cab, while others cover a travel inn when away from home.
    So in short Redwood has a point.
    Maybe the UK should learn from the EU which generally has better conditions for lorry drivers than the UK AND Freedom of Movement.

    Lorry drivers benefit from freedom of movement for reasons that ought to be obvious, but apparently aren't. Lorry drivers, quite literally need freedom to move.
    Do you have some data on the better conditions - what they consist of, etc?
    Decent espresso at motorway service stations, Galois cigarettes, fresh croissants, that kind of thing.
    At every French motorway station I have been to, the coffee has been appealing. Actually worse than Costa Coffee.

    As for the food - was actually considerably worse than some UK services.
    British service stations have improved immeasurably over the last 20 years, admittedly from a low base.
    I'm trying to remember the one I visited in Oxfordshire. It actually looked nice(ish) with a lily pond and decking along one side of the main building. The usual chain places, but the whole thing was approximately 1 million % better than back in the day...
  • Evening again :)

    https://twitter.com/LouiseEllman/status/1442489286163668997

    I am sure we can all be pleased by this, whatever side we sit on. Anti-Semitism is being tackled.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,514

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    Starmer's gonna get heckled during his speech.

    He'll have to ad lib something inspirational like, "Nobody is ruling out paying anybody £15 an hour!"
    The pressure the raise the minimum wage is going to become a lot lower over the next few years as labour shortages start to bite and employers in the lower end services sectors have to raise hourly rates. Minimum wage was a policy for an era of free movement of cheap labour undercutting low wage workers.

    They're constantly fighting the last war. The next one is already older voters leeching off working age people, it's not just happening here. All across the western world where the number of workers per retired person is declining older voters want a larger and larger slice of the pie.
    Exactly this.

    The next battle is the one between the generations.
    One of the benefits of having a walled labour market like Switzerland is that is hugely, hugely benefits younger people as higher wages for lower skilled labour is an effective transfer of wealth from older people to younger people because the cost of services rises faster than their incomes. The older leavers who voted to end free movement have essentially voted for massive pay rises for the young at their own expense.
    Indeed. People act as if the only way to support the older retirees is having more and more workers - and if the workers were highly-skilled, highly-productive, well-paid and self-sufficient that'd be the case.

    But its not true. We've instead had a perverted economic model where successful people can struggle to move here for a well paying job, but anyone unskilled and unemployed can just get on the bus and get a minimum wage job and "in work benefits" and housing benefit.
    Plus this story, still bubbling under, but with grave potential to hurt the Tories


    "669 migrants reached the UK yesterday on 22 boats. It brings the total number for this year to more than 17,000 people - double the number for the whole of last yea"

    https://twitter.com/SimonJonesNews/status/1442549494785064967?s=20
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 1,210
    ydoethur said:

    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    glw said:

    MaxPB said:

    glw said:

    Tribune rally opened by @zarahsultana: “Want to open this rally with solidarity for our comrade Andy McDonald.” (Cue enormous applause). Says the current Labour leadership is “shameful.” Attacks the “Blairites.” #Lab21

    Sultana attacks the “Blairite clique” which she says is dominating the leadership, “gathering in drinks receptions with Peter Mandelson” [boos] “reliving the 1980s and 1990s.”

    More cheers when Sultana says “it’s an absolute disgrace that the leadership have let a scum newspaper have a stand at conference this year.”


    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1442555117182537728

    What an idiot, if the Labour leadership was dominated by a "Blairite clique" then Labour would be ahead in the polls and idiots like Sultana would have been booted out ages ago.
    Ultimately Labour seems like a party where half of the MPs don't want to win over the 2-3m Tory voters they need to get a majority. They'd rather stay in opposition than win the votes of the scum who had the temerity to vote Tory.
    The Tories are much better at politics than Labour. It's not even close.
    The Tories aren't very good at politics. They have some clever ideas and some terrible ideas, and they make lots of mistakes - and they can boast the odd triumph

    They are only in government forever because the Labour Party is inconceivably terrible at politics, and has been for about 15 years now. They've lost Scotland, they've lost the Red Wall, they've lost any sense of unity and coherence, they elected a terrorist-loving traitor as a leader, they got their worst electoral result since the Harrowing of the North, so they elected a humanoid coffin lid as the next leader, now they are trailing a government which cannot organise enough petrol for ambulances

    FFS. Just get rid of Labour. REPLACE
    No, I think the Tories instinctively know how to win votes. They know that winning votes is how to stay in power. The reason old people are being spared rising taxes is that naked political calculation, though a better opposition would make them pay for it.

    Labour are most at ease when they're talking about themselves rather than talking to voters and trying to win them over. Look at all of the big discussions from the conference, it's Labour talking about Labour to Labour.
    The political ecosystem is also important. Conservatives have more favourable press, and big money donors. These make for better communication and reinforcement.
    You have to ask why that is though. It’s a mere twenty years since with the ambivalent exception of the Telegraph the press was more or less solidly Labour. Plus, if the Tories can call on the banks Labour have the funds of the unions.
    When was the Daily Mail solidly Labour?
    And yes, Labour has its union £. It's not as much as the Conservatives, to be sure, but it is a lot.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 18,922

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    Is it not the case that lots of qualified hgv drivers have switched to driving local deliveries as the conditions are better?
    That’s the anecdotal evidence - some have moved to more sociable jobs driving smaller vehicles locally, and others have taken better pay offers to switch company on the HGVs.

    There’s apparently a wide variation in terms and conditions across the industry, for example some companies insist you sleep in your cab, while others cover a travel inn when away from home.
    So in short Redwood has a point.
    Maybe the UK should learn from the EU which generally has better conditions for lorry drivers than the UK AND Freedom of Movement.

    Lorry drivers benefit from freedom of movement for reasons that ought to be obvious, but apparently aren't. Lorry drivers, quite literally need freedom to move.
    Do you have some data on the better conditions - what they consist of, etc?
    Decent espresso at motorway service stations, Galois cigarettes, fresh croissants, that kind of thing.
    At every French motorway station I have been to, the coffee has been appealing. Actually worse than Costa Coffee.

    As for the food - was actually considerably worse than some UK services.
    An appealing coffee is what generally gets me to stop at a services so that's in their favour.
    ha! bloody auto-correct.
  • rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    Is it not the case that lots of qualified hgv drivers have switched to driving local deliveries as the conditions are better?
    That’s the anecdotal evidence - some have moved to more sociable jobs driving smaller vehicles locally, and others have taken better pay offers to switch company on the HGVs.

    There’s apparently a wide variation in terms and conditions across the industry, for example some companies insist you sleep in your cab, while others cover a travel inn when away from home.
    So in short Redwood has a point.
    Maybe the UK should learn from the EU which generally has better conditions for lorry drivers than the UK AND Freedom of Movement.

    Lorry drivers benefit from freedom of movement for reasons that ought to be obvious, but apparently aren't. Lorry drivers, quite literally need freedom to move.
    Do you have some data on the better conditions - what they consist of, etc?
    Decent espresso at motorway service stations, Galois cigarettes, fresh croissants, that kind of thing.
    At every French motorway station I have been to, the coffee has been appealing. Actually worse than Costa Coffee.

    As for the food - was actually considerably worse than some UK services.
    Appealing or appalling?
  • glwglw Posts: 7,693
    edited September 27
    Jonathan said:

    In other words Blair listens to what people say and how they say it. He is not in a dumb broadcast mode.

    That's the thing, it's entirely possible to disagree with Blair about Iraq, and still think that he did a lot of other things the left would like, and was a brilliant politician. But the moonbats hate everything about Blair and his cohort.

    Almost all Tories love Maggie even if they think she made some big mistakes. There are barely a handful who hate her the way so many Labour supporters hate Blair.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,435
    Andy_JS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    Is it not the case that lots of qualified hgv drivers have switched to driving local deliveries as the conditions are better?
    That’s the anecdotal evidence - some have moved to more sociable jobs driving smaller vehicles locally, and others have taken better pay offers to switch company on the HGVs.

    There’s apparently a wide variation in terms and conditions across the industry, for example some companies insist you sleep in your cab, while others cover a travel inn when away from home.
    So in short Redwood has a point.
    Maybe the UK should learn from the EU which generally has better conditions for lorry drivers than the UK AND Freedom of Movement.

    Lorry drivers benefit from freedom of movement for reasons that ought to be obvious, but apparently aren't. Lorry drivers, quite literally need freedom to move.
    Do you have some data on the better conditions - what they consist of, etc?
    Decent espresso at motorway service stations, Galois cigarettes, fresh croissants, that kind of thing.
    At every French motorway station I have been to, the coffee has been appealing. Actually worse than Costa Coffee.

    As for the food - was actually considerably worse than some UK services.
    British service stations have improved immeasurably over the last 20 years, admittedly from a low base.
    Obviously Killington Lakes Services is the best motorway service station in Britain but which is the worst?

    I nominate Hartshead Moor on the M62, where 'All Day Breakfast' takes on a whole new meaning.
  • Evening again :)

    https://twitter.com/LouiseEllman/status/1442489286163668997

    I am sure we can all be pleased by this, whatever side we sit on. Anti-Semitism is being tackled.

    Its a good start.

    But only 70% of the Conference voted to tackle antisemitism, 27% voted against.

    That is scary and shows what a cesspit remains within your party. That 27% should be kicked out, its a cancer in remission at the moment but it can come back again in the future.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 8,737
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    Starmer's gonna get heckled during his speech.

    He'll have to ad lib something inspirational like, "Nobody is ruling out paying anybody £15 an hour!"
    The pressure the raise the minimum wage is going to become a lot lower over the next few years as labour shortages start to bite and employers in the lower end services sectors have to raise hourly rates. Minimum wage was a policy for an era of free movement of cheap labour undercutting low wage workers.

    They're constantly fighting the last war. The next one is already older voters leeching off working age people, it's not just happening here. All across the western world where the number of workers per retired person is declining older voters want a larger and larger slice of the pie.
    Exactly this.

    The next battle is the one between the generations.
    Yes n no. This conversation always makes me think I'm some sort of weird outlier in that I have a. parents and b. children, and by and large we all wish one another well.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 10,137
    edited September 27

    Evening again :)

    https://twitter.com/LouiseEllman/status/1442489286163668997

    I am sure we can all be pleased by this, whatever side we sit on. Anti-Semitism is being tackled.

    Lordy.

    That will wind them up even more.

    Has Labour disaffiliated all the Trades Unions yet? Then they'll become voteable for me.

    I'm actually quite surprised that they allowed JVL to have a fringe event in the programme.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 15,897
    Leon said:

    "669 migrants reached the UK yesterday on 22 boats. It brings the total number for this year to more than 17,000 people - double the number for the whole of last yea"

    Can any of them drive a truck?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,241
    edited September 27

    ydoethur said:

    CatMan said:

    glw said:

    glw said:

    Tribune rally opened by @zarahsultana: “Want to open this rally with solidarity for our comrade Andy McDonald.” (Cue enormous applause). Says the current Labour leadership is “shameful.” Attacks the “Blairites.” #Lab21

    Sultana attacks the “Blairite clique” which she says is dominating the leadership, “gathering in drinks receptions with Peter Mandelson” [boos] “reliving the 1980s and 1990s.”

    More cheers when Sultana says “it’s an absolute disgrace that the leadership have let a scum newspaper have a stand at conference this year.”


    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1442555117182537728

    What an idiot, if the Labour leadership was dominated by a "Blairite clique" then Labour would be ahead in the polls and idiots like Sultana would have been booted out ages ago.
    Reliving the 1990s?

    Yes. When Labour last defeated the Tories and won power after a long long period in opposition.
    Imagine a Liverpool fan who didn't like Kenny Dalglish, or a United fan who hated Ferguson, it's not easy is it? The very idea is fantastical. There is something deeply wrong with the Labour Party when so many members revile their most successful leader ever.
    The Labour Party hate Blair because of Iraq, which to be fair I don't think is that unreasonable.
    Tories also used to hate Blair because he fooled them into being the most enthusiastic supporters of Iraq, but they've moved on. He's now handy for beating SKS up for being crap by comparison, and Labour lefties for repudiating his electoral success.
    I voted for Blair twice
    Which is why you'll never be a true Tory according to the only Tory in the village, despite decades of working with the party.

    Similarly I voted for him once, so that's me excommunicated for life according to the only Tory.
    Strangely, of all the British politicians that have passed like distant comets across my life, I can only think of two that I would never under any circumstances (including brutal testicular torture before being boiled alive if I refused) consider voting for.

    One is Michael Gove.

    The other is Tony Blair.

    I don’t know why. I do actually kind of admire his extraordinary talents as a speaker, as a vote winner, an organiser and a sheer election winning machine.

    But somehow he always made me writhe with horror.
    For me, Johnson trumps everyone... even Gove.
    Do you mind if I ask why?
    My impression of Mr Johnson is that his ambition was more important than his country. I do not think he believed in Brexit any more than I do, but it allowed him to achieve his ambition.

    Johnson appears lazy, complacent, self-absorbed and I don't approve of his moral compass. Now the latter point shouldn't affect his ability to do his job, however in Johnson's case I see his behaviour as a reflection of his competence.

    I know I will be vilified for this heresy and he is in reality gorgeous to everyone in England, but you did ask.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,514
    glw said:

    Jonathan said:

    In other words Blair listens to what people say and how they say it. He is not in a dumb broadcast mode.

    That's the thing, it's entirely possible to disagree with Blair about Iraq, and still think that he did a lot of other things the left would like, and was a brilliant politician. But the moonbats hate everything about Blair and his cohort.

    Almost all Tories love Maggie even if they think she made some big mistakes. There are barely a handful who hate her the way so many Labour supporters hate Blair.
    When your party's members and activists generally hate your most successful EVER leader, your party is in a world of trouble

    It's like royalists hating the Queen
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 40,900
    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    Starmer's gonna get heckled during his speech.

    He'll have to ad lib something inspirational like, "Nobody is ruling out paying anybody £15 an hour!"
    The pressure the raise the minimum wage is going to become a lot lower over the next few years as labour shortages start to bite and employers in the lower end services sectors have to raise hourly rates. Minimum wage was a policy for an era of free movement of cheap labour undercutting low wage workers.

    They're constantly fighting the last war. The next one is already older voters leeching off working age people, it's not just happening here. All across the western world where the number of workers per retired person is declining older voters want a larger and larger slice of the pie.
    Exactly this.

    The next battle is the one between the generations.
    Yes n no. This conversation always makes me think I'm some sort of weird outlier in that I have a. parents and b. children, and by and large we all wish one another well.
    Parents want the best for their children.

    But they also want the pension and healthcare they were promised.

    Children wish their parents well, but don't want all of their wages to be taken and used to support them.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 1,210
    MaxPB said:

    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    glw said:

    MaxPB said:

    glw said:

    Tribune rally opened by @zarahsultana: “Want to open this rally with solidarity for our comrade Andy McDonald.” (Cue enormous applause). Says the current Labour leadership is “shameful.” Attacks the “Blairites.” #Lab21

    Sultana attacks the “Blairite clique” which she says is dominating the leadership, “gathering in drinks receptions with Peter Mandelson” [boos] “reliving the 1980s and 1990s.”

    More cheers when Sultana says “it’s an absolute disgrace that the leadership have let a scum newspaper have a stand at conference this year.”


    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1442555117182537728

    What an idiot, if the Labour leadership was dominated by a "Blairite clique" then Labour would be ahead in the polls and idiots like Sultana would have been booted out ages ago.
    Ultimately Labour seems like a party where half of the MPs don't want to win over the 2-3m Tory voters they need to get a majority. They'd rather stay in opposition than win the votes of the scum who had the temerity to vote Tory.
    The Tories are much better at politics than Labour. It's not even close.
    The Tories aren't very good at politics. They have some clever ideas and some terrible ideas, and they make lots of mistakes - and they can boast the odd triumph

    They are only in government forever because the Labour Party is inconceivably terrible at politics, and has been for about 15 years now. They've lost Scotland, they've lost the Red Wall, they've lost any sense of unity and coherence, they elected a terrorist-loving traitor as a leader, they got their worst electoral result since the Harrowing of the North, so they elected a humanoid coffin lid as the next leader, now they are trailing a government which cannot organise enough petrol for ambulances

    FFS. Just get rid of Labour. REPLACE
    No, I think the Tories instinctively know how to win votes. They know that winning votes is how to stay in power. The reason old people are being spared rising taxes is that naked political calculation, though a better opposition would make them pay for it.

    Labour are most at ease when they're talking about themselves rather than talking to voters and trying to win them over. Look at all of the big discussions from the conference, it's Labour talking about Labour to Labour.
    The political ecosystem is also important. Conservatives have more favourable press, and big money donors. These make for better communication and reinforcement.
    Yes, the unions aren't big money donors at all and it isn't the fault of the public that no one wants to buy/read The Guardian and The Mirror, apparently not even the BBC where The Times is now the most read paper by employees.

    If they stopped banging on about their own internal hatred of the other bits of the Labour party they might actually win votes. As it stands it's interminable chatter about leadership processes, NEC election results, Union election results and which faction has the upper hand. It's difficult to get favourable press from that.
    I didn't say the Labour party doesn't also get a lot of money. Just that the Conservatives get more. It certainly helps and you'd be a fool to ignore it. You'll see if you read my post more carefully that I was adding to, not contradicting, what was said. Yes Labour is far too prone to naval gazing. A more complete picture of its electoral failure will include other factors too.
  • ydoethur said:

    CatMan said:

    glw said:

    glw said:

    Tribune rally opened by @zarahsultana: “Want to open this rally with solidarity for our comrade Andy McDonald.” (Cue enormous applause). Says the current Labour leadership is “shameful.” Attacks the “Blairites.” #Lab21

    Sultana attacks the “Blairite clique” which she says is dominating the leadership, “gathering in drinks receptions with Peter Mandelson” [boos] “reliving the 1980s and 1990s.”

    More cheers when Sultana says “it’s an absolute disgrace that the leadership have let a scum newspaper have a stand at conference this year.”


    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1442555117182537728

    What an idiot, if the Labour leadership was dominated by a "Blairite clique" then Labour would be ahead in the polls and idiots like Sultana would have been booted out ages ago.
    Reliving the 1990s?

    Yes. When Labour last defeated the Tories and won power after a long long period in opposition.
    Imagine a Liverpool fan who didn't like Kenny Dalglish, or a United fan who hated Ferguson, it's not easy is it? The very idea is fantastical. There is something deeply wrong with the Labour Party when so many members revile their most successful leader ever.
    The Labour Party hate Blair because of Iraq, which to be fair I don't think is that unreasonable.
    Tories also used to hate Blair because he fooled them into being the most enthusiastic supporters of Iraq, but they've moved on. He's now handy for beating SKS up for being crap by comparison, and Labour lefties for repudiating his electoral success.
    I voted for Blair twice
    Which is why you'll never be a true Tory according to the only Tory in the village, despite decades of working with the party.

    Similarly I voted for him once, so that's me excommunicated for life according to the only Tory.
    Strangely, of all the British politicians that have passed like distant comets across my life, I can only think of two that I would never under any circumstances (including brutal testicular torture before being boiled alive if I refused) consider voting for.

    One is Michael Gove.

    The other is Tony Blair.

    I don’t know why. I do actually kind of admire his extraordinary talents as a speaker, as a vote winner, an organiser and a sheer election winning machine.

    But somehow he always made me writhe with horror.
    For me, Johnson trumps everyone... even Gove.
    Do you mind if I ask why?
    My impression of Mr Johnson is that his ambition was more important than his country. I do not think he believed in Brexit any more than I do, but it allowed him to achieve his ambition.

    Johnson appears lazy, complacent, self-absorbed and I don't approve of his moral compass. Now the latter point shouldn't affect his ability to do his job, however in Johnson's case I see his behaviour as a reflection of his competence.

    I know I will be vilified for this heresy and he is in reality gorgeous to everyone in England, but you did ask.
    I won't vilify you. I genuinely like Johnson, even though I'm not supporting the Tories now I still do, but I respect other people can have different opinions.

    What's interest is that even as someone who likes Johnson I have to say that there's quite an element of truth in much of what you wrote. Simply for me some of it while being true is not that big of a deal for me or can actually be a good thing if you change the viewpoint.

    So its interesting to see where other people are coming from.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,514

    Andy_JS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    Is it not the case that lots of qualified hgv drivers have switched to driving local deliveries as the conditions are better?
    That’s the anecdotal evidence - some have moved to more sociable jobs driving smaller vehicles locally, and others have taken better pay offers to switch company on the HGVs.

    There’s apparently a wide variation in terms and conditions across the industry, for example some companies insist you sleep in your cab, while others cover a travel inn when away from home.
    So in short Redwood has a point.
    Maybe the UK should learn from the EU which generally has better conditions for lorry drivers than the UK AND Freedom of Movement.

    Lorry drivers benefit from freedom of movement for reasons that ought to be obvious, but apparently aren't. Lorry drivers, quite literally need freedom to move.
    Do you have some data on the better conditions - what they consist of, etc?
    Decent espresso at motorway service stations, Galois cigarettes, fresh croissants, that kind of thing.
    At every French motorway station I have been to, the coffee has been appealing. Actually worse than Costa Coffee.

    As for the food - was actually considerably worse than some UK services.
    British service stations have improved immeasurably over the last 20 years, admittedly from a low base.
    Obviously Killington Lakes Services is the best motorway service station in Britain but which is the worst?

    I nominate Hartshead Moor on the M62, where 'All Day Breakfast' takes on a whole new meaning.
    Not a motorway, as such, but the A1 has some indescribably bad services (or it did when I drove it in 2019). Like a trip back to the early 80s when the best you could hope for was Little Chef

    It has always amazed me how British service stations stayed so bad for so long. The entire country went through a food revolution, every high street is full of gastropubs and delis and ethnic restaurants, everyone has tried sushi and tacos and chicken penang - and expects decent and varied tucker

    Yet somehow the service stations stuck to their guns. Beans, chips, burgers, that's it. Why did no one think: wait, maybe people who drive on motorways are similar to people who eat in towns, and they would like some variety, maybe even some healthy food?

    Only in very recent years has it improved
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,435
    edited September 27
    glw said:

    Jonathan said:

    In other words Blair listens to what people say and how they say it. He is not in a dumb broadcast mode.

    That's the thing, it's entirely possible to disagree with Blair about Iraq, and still think that he did a lot of other things the left would like, and was a brilliant politician. But the moonbats hate everything about Blair and his cohort.

    Almost all Tories love Maggie even if they think she made some big mistakes. There are barely a handful who hate her the way so many Labour supporters hate Blair.
    There's something in the DNA of the Left in this country that leaves it deeply susceptible to fragmentation.

    It's totally ridiculous to me that many on the far left spend more time fighting the soft-left than fighting the Tories. But there it is - and has been for as long as I can remember.

    Shame we don't have an equivalent of Germany's SPD in the UK. The party that calls itself The SDP looks well to the right of the Tories to me, at least socially.
  • glwglw Posts: 7,693
    Leon said:

    glw said:

    Jonathan said:

    In other words Blair listens to what people say and how they say it. He is not in a dumb broadcast mode.

    That's the thing, it's entirely possible to disagree with Blair about Iraq, and still think that he did a lot of other things the left would like, and was a brilliant politician. But the moonbats hate everything about Blair and his cohort.

    Almost all Tories love Maggie even if they think she made some big mistakes. There are barely a handful who hate her the way so many Labour supporters hate Blair.
    When your party's members and activists generally hate your most successful EVER leader, your party is in a world of trouble

    It's like royalists hating the Queen
    It's really weird, try to think of almost any organisation, business, party, club, team or similar where large numbers of the membership hate the most successful leader they ever had.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    CatMan said:

    glw said:

    glw said:

    Tribune rally opened by @zarahsultana: “Want to open this rally with solidarity for our comrade Andy McDonald.” (Cue enormous applause). Says the current Labour leadership is “shameful.” Attacks the “Blairites.” #Lab21

    Sultana attacks the “Blairite clique” which she says is dominating the leadership, “gathering in drinks receptions with Peter Mandelson” [boos] “reliving the 1980s and 1990s.”

    More cheers when Sultana says “it’s an absolute disgrace that the leadership have let a scum newspaper have a stand at conference this year.”


    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1442555117182537728

    What an idiot, if the Labour leadership was dominated by a "Blairite clique" then Labour would be ahead in the polls and idiots like Sultana would have been booted out ages ago.
    Reliving the 1990s?

    Yes. When Labour last defeated the Tories and won power after a long long period in opposition.
    Imagine a Liverpool fan who didn't like Kenny Dalglish, or a United fan who hated Ferguson, it's not easy is it? The very idea is fantastical. There is something deeply wrong with the Labour Party when so many members revile their most successful leader ever.
    The Labour Party hate Blair because of Iraq, which to be fair I don't think is that unreasonable.
    Tories also used to hate Blair because he fooled them into being the most enthusiastic supporters of Iraq, but they've moved on. He's now handy for beating SKS up for being crap by comparison, and Labour lefties for repudiating his electoral success.
    Not so. If you weren't there, see

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_February_2003_anti-war_protests#London

    Sane tories despised IDS by this stage as much as everybody else did. Lots of examples of Col & Mrs Faggot-Baiter of the Old Rectory, Turnipshire were on that protest.
    I was thinking mainly of the PCP who were so helpful. I'm actually not sure what the position of the current Conservative Party (or whatever they are) is on Iraq, but since they don't seem to be held to account for anything it doesn't really matter much.

    I was on the Glasgow one, freezing but stunning clear blue sky. I'm sure there were Tories there but obviously a much smaller pool to draw upon. Blair was supposed to give his conference speech at the SECC when & where the demo ended, but shat it and scuttled off after rescheduling it to be given earlier.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 10,137
    edited September 27
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    Starmer's gonna get heckled during his speech.

    He'll have to ad lib something inspirational like, "Nobody is ruling out paying anybody £15 an hour!"
    The pressure the raise the minimum wage is going to become a lot lower over the next few years as labour shortages start to bite and employers in the lower end services sectors have to raise hourly rates. Minimum wage was a policy for an era of free movement of cheap labour undercutting low wage workers.

    They're constantly fighting the last war. The next one is already older voters leeching off working age people, it's not just happening here. All across the western world where the number of workers per retired person is declining older voters want a larger and larger slice of the pie.
    Exactly this.

    The next battle is the one between the generations.
    Minimum wage is interesting.

    We are solidly in line with the top 5 in the EU (France, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Ireland), excepting Luxemburg who are about 10% higher.

    The only countries in Europe (sovereign market towns maybe excepted) with minimum wages at around the £15 suggested are Norway and Switzerland, which both have GDPs of around $70k. Whilst all the othe 5 listed above are in the range 47-60k dollars. With the exception of Ireland where the figures are meaningless.

    I can see us adopting elements of the Swiss model eventually, especially as we bed in to the new, improved post-Brexit reality and throw off the leg-irons of backwards-looking EU collectivism (! :smile: ). As to which bits, we'll see? We need a diesel-electric submarine company, as Germany and Sweden have been selling oodles of them.

    I think "battle between generations" is a bit of a canard / hobbyhorse, and that something wealth-tax wise will make a big difference in the budget, though perhaps smallish initially building up to change the balance.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 772
    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    Starmer's gonna get heckled during his speech.

    He'll have to ad lib something inspirational like, "Nobody is ruling out paying anybody £15 an hour!"
    The pressure the raise the minimum wage is going to become a lot lower over the next few years as labour shortages start to bite and employers in the lower end services sectors have to raise hourly rates. Minimum wage was a policy for an era of free movement of cheap labour undercutting low wage workers.

    They're constantly fighting the last war. The next one is already older voters leeching off working age people, it's not just happening here. All across the western world where the number of workers per retired person is declining older voters want a larger and larger slice of the pie.
    Exactly this.

    The next battle is the one between the generations.
    One of the benefits of having a walled labour market like Switzerland is that is hugely, hugely benefits younger people as higher wages for lower skilled labour is an effective transfer of wealth from older people to younger people because the cost of services rises faster than their incomes. The older leavers who voted to end free movement have essentially voted for massive pay rises for the young at their own expense.
    Indeed. People act as if the only way to support the older retirees is having more and more workers - and if the workers were highly-skilled, highly-productive, well-paid and self-sufficient that'd be the case.

    But its not true. We've instead had a perverted economic model where successful people can struggle to move here for a well paying job, but anyone unskilled and unemployed can just get on the bus and get a minimum wage job and "in work benefits" and housing benefit.
    Plus this story, still bubbling under, but with grave potential to hurt the Tories


    "669 migrants reached the UK yesterday on 22 boats. It brings the total number for this year to more than 17,000 people - double the number for the whole of last yea"

    https://twitter.com/SimonJonesNews/status/1442549494785064967?s=20
    I saw this yesterday on the kent coast; when we went on a Sunday morning drive.

    There were a couple of police cars outside the lifeboat station, I thought it had been burgled or something. Then I saw about 30 migrants in red jackets; presumably rescued from a dinghy. Shortly later a coach pulled up to drive them away. It was like a rail replacement bus operation, but more ordered and efficient.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 40,900

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    Is it not the case that lots of qualified hgv drivers have switched to driving local deliveries as the conditions are better?
    That’s the anecdotal evidence - some have moved to more sociable jobs driving smaller vehicles locally, and others have taken better pay offers to switch company on the HGVs.

    There’s apparently a wide variation in terms and conditions across the industry, for example some companies insist you sleep in your cab, while others cover a travel inn when away from home.
    So in short Redwood has a point.
    Maybe the UK should learn from the EU which generally has better conditions for lorry drivers than the UK AND Freedom of Movement.

    Lorry drivers benefit from freedom of movement for reasons that ought to be obvious, but apparently aren't. Lorry drivers, quite literally need freedom to move.
    Do you have some data on the better conditions - what they consist of, etc?
    Decent espresso at motorway service stations, Galois cigarettes, fresh croissants, that kind of thing.
    At every French motorway station I have been to, the coffee has been appealing. Actually worse than Costa Coffee.

    As for the food - was actually considerably worse than some UK services.
    I wasn't being serious. Hence the Galois bit.

    I can't see how conditions could really be very different for continental and UK HGV drivers. I can see you'd might get paid more on the continent, simply because it's a bigger place, and you could easily find yourself with a 1,200 mile round trip.

    Of course, that potentially takes away from the quality of life too - as you'd be more likely to spend nights away from home.

    A question. If a British HGV driver takes a container from Birmingham to Bremen, is he allowed to bring one back in the other direction? Because it seems that that would be a major reason why being a UK based HGV driver might become a significantly less attractive proposition right now. Simply, if one third of your journeys involve leaving the UK, then you're only going to get paid for a single leg on those trips.
  • glw said:

    Jonathan said:

    In other words Blair listens to what people say and how they say it. He is not in a dumb broadcast mode.

    That's the thing, it's entirely possible to disagree with Blair about Iraq, and still think that he did a lot of other things the left would like, and was a brilliant politician. But the moonbats hate everything about Blair and his cohort.

    Almost all Tories love Maggie even if they think she made some big mistakes. There are barely a handful who hate her the way so many Labour supporters hate Blair.
    There's something in the DNA of the Left in this country that leaves it deeply susceptible to fragmentation.

    It's totally ridiculous to me that many on the far left spend more time fighting the soft-left than fighting the Tories. But there it is - and has been for as long as I can remember.

    Shame we don't have an equivalent of Germany's SPD in the UK. The party that calls itself The SDP looks well to the right of the Tories to me.
    The party that calls itself The Greens look a lot less environmentally-friendly than the Tories too.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 89,222
    edited September 27
    Leon said:

    glw said:

    Jonathan said:

    In other words Blair listens to what people say and how they say it. He is not in a dumb broadcast mode.

    That's the thing, it's entirely possible to disagree with Blair about Iraq, and still think that he did a lot of other things the left would like, and was a brilliant politician. But the moonbats hate everything about Blair and his cohort.

    Almost all Tories love Maggie even if they think she made some big mistakes. There are barely a handful who hate her the way so many Labour supporters hate Blair.
    When your party's members and activists generally hate your most successful EVER leader, your party is in a world of trouble

    It's like royalists hating the Queen
    Yes but Thatcher shifted the UK to the right, Blair governed from the centre, indeed economically he was more rightwing than Boris was. He was closely aligned to Bush in the Iraq War too which many, probably most leftwingers opposed.

    That is why for Labour supporters Attlee, Wilson, even Brown will always be more popular PMs than Blair was.
  • Evening again :)

    https://twitter.com/LouiseEllman/status/1442489286163668997

    I am sure we can all be pleased by this, whatever side we sit on. Anti-Semitism is being tackled.

    Its a good start.

    But only 70% of the Conference voted to tackle antisemitism, 27% voted against.

    That is scary and shows what a cesspit remains within your party. That 27% should be kicked out, its a cancer in remission at the moment but it can come back again in the future.
    To give him his due, Starmer is mostly picking the right fights and mostly just about getting his way. It's not pretty, and I agree that a lot of this stuff should be much less controversial than it is. But when people point and chortle at the many sh*tshow aspects of this conference, it's worth asking how else you go about cleaning a blocked toilet. And in that context, the noises off (including the resignation of Thingy Whatsisname) make sense as the howls of those who realise that howling is all that's left to them.

    Not yet sufficient. But necessary.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,481

    CatMan said:

    glw said:

    glw said:

    Tribune rally opened by @zarahsultana: “Want to open this rally with solidarity for our comrade Andy McDonald.” (Cue enormous applause). Says the current Labour leadership is “shameful.” Attacks the “Blairites.” #Lab21

    Sultana attacks the “Blairite clique” which she says is dominating the leadership, “gathering in drinks receptions with Peter Mandelson” [boos] “reliving the 1980s and 1990s.”

    More cheers when Sultana says “it’s an absolute disgrace that the leadership have let a scum newspaper have a stand at conference this year.”


    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1442555117182537728

    What an idiot, if the Labour leadership was dominated by a "Blairite clique" then Labour would be ahead in the polls and idiots like Sultana would have been booted out ages ago.
    Reliving the 1990s?

    Yes. When Labour last defeated the Tories and won power after a long long period in opposition.
    Imagine a Liverpool fan who didn't like Kenny Dalglish, or a United fan who hated Ferguson, it's not easy is it? The very idea is fantastical. There is something deeply wrong with the Labour Party when so many members revile their most successful leader ever.
    The Labour Party hate Blair because of Iraq, which to be fair I don't think is that unreasonable.
    Tories also used to hate Blair because he fooled them into being the most enthusiastic supporters of Iraq, but they've moved on. He's now handy for beating SKS up for being crap by comparison, and Labour lefties for repudiating his electoral success.
    I voted for Blair twice
    I voted for him and don't regret it. He was the best person for the job at the time.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 14,648

    Evening again :)

    https://twitter.com/LouiseEllman/status/1442489286163668997

    I am sure we can all be pleased by this, whatever side we sit on. Anti-Semitism is being tackled.

    Its a good start.

    But only 70% of the Conference voted to tackle antisemitism, 27% voted against.

    That is scary and shows what a cesspit remains within your party. That 27% should be kicked out, its a cancer in remission at the moment but it can come back again in the future.
    To give him his due, Starmer is mostly picking the right fights and mostly just about getting his way. It's not pretty, and I agree that a lot of this stuff should be much less controversial than it is. But when people point and chortle at the many sh*tshow aspects of this conference, it's worth asking how else you go about cleaning a blocked toilet. And in that context, the noises off (including the resignation of Thingy Whatsisname) make sense as the howls of those who realise that howling is all that's left to them.

    Not yet sufficient. But necessary.
    I'm suddenly reminded, by your posting, of seeing someone clear a blocked toilet on a yacht. But he had been an Engineer Officer in the RN during a very famous sea battle.
  • Andy_JS said:

    CatMan said:

    glw said:

    glw said:

    Tribune rally opened by @zarahsultana: “Want to open this rally with solidarity for our comrade Andy McDonald.” (Cue enormous applause). Says the current Labour leadership is “shameful.” Attacks the “Blairites.” #Lab21

    Sultana attacks the “Blairite clique” which she says is dominating the leadership, “gathering in drinks receptions with Peter Mandelson” [boos] “reliving the 1980s and 1990s.”

    More cheers when Sultana says “it’s an absolute disgrace that the leadership have let a scum newspaper have a stand at conference this year.”


    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1442555117182537728

    What an idiot, if the Labour leadership was dominated by a "Blairite clique" then Labour would be ahead in the polls and idiots like Sultana would have been booted out ages ago.
    Reliving the 1990s?

    Yes. When Labour last defeated the Tories and won power after a long long period in opposition.
    Imagine a Liverpool fan who didn't like Kenny Dalglish, or a United fan who hated Ferguson, it's not easy is it? The very idea is fantastical. There is something deeply wrong with the Labour Party when so many members revile their most successful leader ever.
    The Labour Party hate Blair because of Iraq, which to be fair I don't think is that unreasonable.
    Tories also used to hate Blair because he fooled them into being the most enthusiastic supporters of Iraq, but they've moved on. He's now handy for beating SKS up for being crap by comparison, and Labour lefties for repudiating his electoral success.
    I voted for Blair twice
    I voted for him and don't regret it. He was the best person for the job at the time.
    The Tories needed time to regroup and get grounded again. It worked too, because from 2010 to date, barring the unfortunate mishap of 2016-19 they've managed to be sensible and in touch in general.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,514

    glw said:

    Jonathan said:

    In other words Blair listens to what people say and how they say it. He is not in a dumb broadcast mode.

    That's the thing, it's entirely possible to disagree with Blair about Iraq, and still think that he did a lot of other things the left would like, and was a brilliant politician. But the moonbats hate everything about Blair and his cohort.

    Almost all Tories love Maggie even if they think she made some big mistakes. There are barely a handful who hate her the way so many Labour supporters hate Blair.
    There's something in the DNA of the Left in this country that leaves it deeply susceptible to fragmentation.

    It's totally ridiculous to me that many on the far left spend more time fighting the soft-left than fighting the Tories. But there it is - and has been for as long as I can remember.

    Shame we don't have an equivalent of Germany's SPD in the UK. The party that calls itself The SDP looks well to the right of the Tories to me.
    I draw your attention to my Downton Abbey analogy

    No one downstairs in Downton ever thinks of actually living Upstairs (apart from that Irish chauffeur, but he only achieves it because he's Irish, not British)

    Is it a class hangover? Certainly if you look at someone like Rayner, she is absolutely driven by class - Tories and Tory voters are "scum" just because.

    And yet, if you are suffused with class hatred for the rich/Tories/bankers, etc etc, like her, then you will also have the cultural cringe of believing you are inherently inferior, or doomed to lose. Which is quite a handicap. And therefore you turn on class betrayers. Like Blair?

    Germany has had nothing like our class system for many decades
  • Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    Starmer's gonna get heckled during his speech.

    He'll have to ad lib something inspirational like, "Nobody is ruling out paying anybody £15 an hour!"
    The pressure the raise the minimum wage is going to become a lot lower over the next few years as labour shortages start to bite and employers in the lower end services sectors have to raise hourly rates. Minimum wage was a policy for an era of free movement of cheap labour undercutting low wage workers.

    They're constantly fighting the last war. The next one is already older voters leeching off working age people, it's not just happening here. All across the western world where the number of workers per retired person is declining older voters want a larger and larger slice of the pie.
    Exactly this.

    The next battle is the one between the generations.
    One of the benefits of having a walled labour market like Switzerland is that is hugely, hugely benefits younger people as higher wages for lower skilled labour is an effective transfer of wealth from older people to younger people because the cost of services rises faster than their incomes. The older leavers who voted to end free movement have essentially voted for massive pay rises for the young at their own expense.
    Indeed. People act as if the only way to support the older retirees is having more and more workers - and if the workers were highly-skilled, highly-productive, well-paid and self-sufficient that'd be the case.

    But its not true. We've instead had a perverted economic model where successful people can struggle to move here for a well paying job, but anyone unskilled and unemployed can just get on the bus and get a minimum wage job and "in work benefits" and housing benefit.
    Plus this story, still bubbling under, but with grave potential to hurt the Tories


    "669 migrants reached the UK yesterday on 22 boats. It brings the total number for this year to more than 17,000 people - double the number for the whole of last yea"

    https://twitter.com/SimonJonesNews/status/1442549494785064967?s=20
    Channel 4 think it's OK!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ei_XdwSghQ&t=129s
  • MattWMattW Posts: 10,137
    edited September 27
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    Is it not the case that lots of qualified hgv drivers have switched to driving local deliveries as the conditions are better?
    That’s the anecdotal evidence - some have moved to more sociable jobs driving smaller vehicles locally, and others have taken better pay offers to switch company on the HGVs.

    There’s apparently a wide variation in terms and conditions across the industry, for example some companies insist you sleep in your cab, while others cover a travel inn when away from home.
    So in short Redwood has a point.
    Maybe the UK should learn from the EU which generally has better conditions for lorry drivers than the UK AND Freedom of Movement.

    Lorry drivers benefit from freedom of movement for reasons that ought to be obvious, but apparently aren't. Lorry drivers, quite literally need freedom to move.
    Do you have some data on the better conditions - what they consist of, etc?
    Decent espresso at motorway service stations, Galois cigarettes, fresh croissants, that kind of thing.
    At every French motorway station I have been to, the coffee has been appealing. Actually worse than Costa Coffee.

    As for the food - was actually considerably worse than some UK services.
    I wasn't being serious. Hence the Galois bit.

    I can't see how conditions could really be very different for continental and UK HGV drivers. I can see you'd might get paid more on the continent, simply because it's a bigger place, and you could easily find yourself with a 1,200 mile round trip.

    Of course, that potentially takes away from the quality of life too - as you'd be more likely to spend nights away from home.

    A question. If a British HGV driver takes a container from Birmingham to Bremen, is he allowed to bring one back in the other direction? Because it seems that that would be a major reason why being a UK based HGV driver might become a significantly less attractive proposition right now. Simply, if one third of your journeys involve leaving the UK, then you're only going to get paid for a single leg on those trips.
    Quite a lot of this is surely just the next mud-barrel being scraped by FBPE mudslingers?

    It's the old someone stubs a toe in London OMG the world is ending; 20 people die in a sinkhole in Paris and no one notices.

    That's just an aspect of our media landscape for the next 10-20 years, with which we have to live.

    eg Will Scott stop before he falls of his perch?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 68,919
    CatMan said:

    glw said:

    glw said:

    Tribune rally opened by @zarahsultana: “Want to open this rally with solidarity for our comrade Andy McDonald.” (Cue enormous applause). Says the current Labour leadership is “shameful.” Attacks the “Blairites.” #Lab21

    Sultana attacks the “Blairite clique” which she says is dominating the leadership, “gathering in drinks receptions with Peter Mandelson” [boos] “reliving the 1980s and 1990s.”

    More cheers when Sultana says “it’s an absolute disgrace that the leadership have let a scum newspaper have a stand at conference this year.”


    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1442555117182537728

    What an idiot, if the Labour leadership was dominated by a "Blairite clique" then Labour would be ahead in the polls and idiots like Sultana would have been booted out ages ago.
    Reliving the 1990s?

    Yes. When Labour last defeated the Tories and won power after a long long period in opposition.
    Imagine a Liverpool fan who didn't like Kenny Dalglish, or a United fan who hated Ferguson, it's not easy is it? The very idea is fantastical. There is something deeply wrong with the Labour Party when so many members revile their most successful leader ever.
    The Labour Party hate Blair because of Iraq, which to be fair I don't think is that unreasonable.
    It seems to be much deeper than that given they seem to regard to operating in the same way as him as anathema.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,514
    edited September 27
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    Is it not the case that lots of qualified hgv drivers have switched to driving local deliveries as the conditions are better?
    That’s the anecdotal evidence - some have moved to more sociable jobs driving smaller vehicles locally, and others have taken better pay offers to switch company on the HGVs.

    There’s apparently a wide variation in terms and conditions across the industry, for example some companies insist you sleep in your cab, while others cover a travel inn when away from home.
    So in short Redwood has a point.
    Maybe the UK should learn from the EU which generally has better conditions for lorry drivers than the UK AND Freedom of Movement.

    Lorry drivers benefit from freedom of movement for reasons that ought to be obvious, but apparently aren't. Lorry drivers, quite literally need freedom to move.
    Do you have some data on the better conditions - what they consist of, etc?
    Decent espresso at motorway service stations, Galois cigarettes, fresh croissants, that kind of thing.
    At every French motorway station I have been to, the coffee has been appealing. Actually worse than Costa Coffee.

    As for the food - was actually considerably worse than some UK services.
    I wasn't being serious. Hence the Galois bit.

    I can't see how conditions could really be very different for continental and UK HGV drivers. I can see you'd might get paid more on the continent, simply because it's a bigger place, and you could easily find yourself with a 1,200 mile round trip.

    Of course, that potentially takes away from the quality of life too - as you'd be more likely to spend nights away from home.

    A question. If a British HGV driver takes a container from Birmingham to Bremen, is he allowed to bring one back in the other direction? Because it seems that that would be a major reason why being a UK based HGV driver might become a significantly less attractive proposition right now. Simply, if one third of your journeys involve leaving the UK, then you're only going to get paid for a single leg on those trips.
    The best motorway service stations are in countries which have not been completely robotised and corporatised, so you get little quirks and individual outlets

    eg I was driving in Hungary about five years ago and I pulled over for petrol and the service station had freshly made goulash and amazing cakes and it was all lovely and weird and convivial. No coffee machines

    Like France about 4 decades back
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,435
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    Is it not the case that lots of qualified hgv drivers have switched to driving local deliveries as the conditions are better?
    That’s the anecdotal evidence - some have moved to more sociable jobs driving smaller vehicles locally, and others have taken better pay offers to switch company on the HGVs.

    There’s apparently a wide variation in terms and conditions across the industry, for example some companies insist you sleep in your cab, while others cover a travel inn when away from home.
    So in short Redwood has a point.
    Maybe the UK should learn from the EU which generally has better conditions for lorry drivers than the UK AND Freedom of Movement.

    Lorry drivers benefit from freedom of movement for reasons that ought to be obvious, but apparently aren't. Lorry drivers, quite literally need freedom to move.
    Do you have some data on the better conditions - what they consist of, etc?
    Decent espresso at motorway service stations, Galois cigarettes, fresh croissants, that kind of thing.
    At every French motorway station I have been to, the coffee has been appealing. Actually worse than Costa Coffee.

    As for the food - was actually considerably worse than some UK services.
    British service stations have improved immeasurably over the last 20 years, admittedly from a low base.
    Obviously Killington Lakes Services is the best motorway service station in Britain but which is the worst?

    I nominate Hartshead Moor on the M62, where 'All Day Breakfast' takes on a whole new meaning.
    Not a motorway, as such, but the A1 has some indescribably bad services (or it did when I drove it in 2019). Like a trip back to the early 80s when the best you could hope for was Little Chef

    It has always amazed me how British service stations stayed so bad for so long. The entire country went through a food revolution, every high street is full of gastropubs and delis and ethnic restaurants, everyone has tried sushi and tacos and chicken penang - and expects decent and varied tucker

    Yet somehow the service stations stuck to their guns. Beans, chips, burgers, that's it. Why did no one think: wait, maybe people who drive on motorways are similar to people who eat in towns, and they would like some variety, maybe even some healthy food?

    Only in very recent years has it improved
    Continuing the subject of crap refreshment offerings can I give a star billing to the major cinema chains?

    Cineworld in particular seem to imagine that we all want massively overpriced caricatures of US snacks that you (thankfully) won't see anywhere outside a cinema in this country:

    Buckets of ice with coke syrup, buckets of tasteless popcorn, trays of stale tortilla chips with red gloop, flourescent frozen sugar slush, 'coffee' of 1970s vintage... I could go on.

    [I feel much better for that rant - thanks for listening!]
  • MattWMattW Posts: 10,137
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    Is it not the case that lots of qualified hgv drivers have switched to driving local deliveries as the conditions are better?
    That’s the anecdotal evidence - some have moved to more sociable jobs driving smaller vehicles locally, and others have taken better pay offers to switch company on the HGVs.

    There’s apparently a wide variation in terms and conditions across the industry, for example some companies insist you sleep in your cab, while others cover a travel inn when away from home.
    So in short Redwood has a point.
    Maybe the UK should learn from the EU which generally has better conditions for lorry drivers than the UK AND Freedom of Movement.

    Lorry drivers benefit from freedom of movement for reasons that ought to be obvious, but apparently aren't. Lorry drivers, quite literally need freedom to move.
    Do you have some data on the better conditions - what they consist of, etc?
    Decent espresso at motorway service stations, Galois cigarettes, fresh croissants, that kind of thing.
    At every French motorway station I have been to, the coffee has been appealing. Actually worse than Costa Coffee.

    As for the food - was actually considerably worse than some UK services.
    I wasn't being serious. Hence the Galois bit.

    I can't see how conditions could really be very different for continental and UK HGV drivers. I can see you'd might get paid more on the continent, simply because it's a bigger place, and you could easily find yourself with a 1,200 mile round trip.

    Of course, that potentially takes away from the quality of life too - as you'd be more likely to spend nights away from home.

    A question. If a British HGV driver takes a container from Birmingham to Bremen, is he allowed to bring one back in the other direction? Because it seems that that would be a major reason why being a UK based HGV driver might become a significantly less attractive proposition right now. Simply, if one third of your journeys involve leaving the UK, then you're only going to get paid for a single leg on those trips.
    I think so, but it will have to be arranged precisely, and there may be limits and much paperwork to do it from a third country.

    (I could be wrong on that, but it has that sort of feel.)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 89,222
    edited September 27

    glw said:

    Jonathan said:

    In other words Blair listens to what people say and how they say it. He is not in a dumb broadcast mode.

    That's the thing, it's entirely possible to disagree with Blair about Iraq, and still think that he did a lot of other things the left would like, and was a brilliant politician. But the moonbats hate everything about Blair and his cohort.

    Almost all Tories love Maggie even if they think she made some big mistakes. There are barely a handful who hate her the way so many Labour supporters hate Blair.
    There's something in the DNA of the Left in this country that leaves it deeply susceptible to fragmentation.

    It's totally ridiculous to me that many on the far left spend more time fighting the soft-left than fighting the Tories. But there it is - and has been for as long as I can remember.

    Shame we don't have an equivalent of Germany's SPD in the UK. The party that calls itself The SDP looks well to the right of the Tories to me, at least socially.
    ? Since when have the SPD taken Germany out of the EU and ended free movement and joined a military alliance with Australia and the US to contain China. Germany also was even more restrictive during the lockdown than we were and Scholz's furlough scheme was just as expansive as Sunak's, Sunak now ending the welfare expansion of UC etc. Scholz has also proposed to increase taxes on the wealthy, something Sunak has not yet done
  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,514

    Evening again :)

    https://twitter.com/LouiseEllman/status/1442489286163668997

    I am sure we can all be pleased by this, whatever side we sit on. Anti-Semitism is being tackled.

    Its a good start.

    But only 70% of the Conference voted to tackle antisemitism, 27% voted against.

    That is scary and shows what a cesspit remains within your party. That 27% should be kicked out, its a cancer in remission at the moment but it can come back again in the future.
    To give him his due, Starmer is mostly picking the right fights and mostly just about getting his way. It's not pretty, and I agree that a lot of this stuff should be much less controversial than it is. But when people point and chortle at the many sh*tshow aspects of this conference, it's worth asking how else you go about cleaning a blocked toilet. And in that context, the noises off (including the resignation of Thingy Whatsisname) make sense as the howls of those who realise that howling is all that's left to them.

    Not yet sufficient. But necessary.
    This is a fair and interesting point. Starmer is doing a dirty job which has to be done? He won't win and become PM, but unless someone lays the groundwork - like he is doing - then Labour will never win.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 89,222
    edited September 27

    glw said:

    Jonathan said:

    In other words Blair listens to what people say and how they say it. He is not in a dumb broadcast mode.

    That's the thing, it's entirely possible to disagree with Blair about Iraq, and still think that he did a lot of other things the left would like, and was a brilliant politician. But the moonbats hate everything about Blair and his cohort.

    Almost all Tories love Maggie even if they think she made some big mistakes. There are barely a handful who hate her the way so many Labour supporters hate Blair.
    There's something in the DNA of the Left in this country that leaves it deeply susceptible to fragmentation.

    It's totally ridiculous to me that many on the far left spend more time fighting the soft-left than fighting the Tories. But there it is - and has been for as long as I can remember.

    Shame we don't have an equivalent of Germany's SPD in the UK. The party that calls itself The SDP looks well to the right of the Tories to me.
    The party that calls itself The Greens look a lot less environmentally-friendly than the Tories too.
    The Tories have also not opposed a new coalmine in Cumbria despite Boris' climate change emissions reduction targets. The German greens are very anti coal and also anti nuclear unlike Boris

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 40,900
    MattW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    Is it not the case that lots of qualified hgv drivers have switched to driving local deliveries as the conditions are better?
    That’s the anecdotal evidence - some have moved to more sociable jobs driving smaller vehicles locally, and others have taken better pay offers to switch company on the HGVs.

    There’s apparently a wide variation in terms and conditions across the industry, for example some companies insist you sleep in your cab, while others cover a travel inn when away from home.
    So in short Redwood has a point.
    Maybe the UK should learn from the EU which generally has better conditions for lorry drivers than the UK AND Freedom of Movement.

    Lorry drivers benefit from freedom of movement for reasons that ought to be obvious, but apparently aren't. Lorry drivers, quite literally need freedom to move.
    Do you have some data on the better conditions - what they consist of, etc?
    Decent espresso at motorway service stations, Galois cigarettes, fresh croissants, that kind of thing.
    At every French motorway station I have been to, the coffee has been appealing. Actually worse than Costa Coffee.

    As for the food - was actually considerably worse than some UK services.
    I wasn't being serious. Hence the Galois bit.

    I can't see how conditions could really be very different for continental and UK HGV drivers. I can see you'd might get paid more on the continent, simply because it's a bigger place, and you could easily find yourself with a 1,200 mile round trip.

    Of course, that potentially takes away from the quality of life too - as you'd be more likely to spend nights away from home.

    A question. If a British HGV driver takes a container from Birmingham to Bremen, is he allowed to bring one back in the other direction? Because it seems that that would be a major reason why being a UK based HGV driver might become a significantly less attractive proposition right now. Simply, if one third of your journeys involve leaving the UK, then you're only going to get paid for a single leg on those trips.
    I think so, but it will have to be arranged precisely, and there may be limits and much paperwork to do it from a third country.

    (I could be wrong on that, but it has that sort of feel.)
    And I'm guessing it wouldn't be possible to do Birmingham - Bremen - Bonn - Boulonge - Birmingham... which I guess probably happened a lot in the old days.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 68,919

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    Is it not the case that lots of qualified hgv drivers have switched to driving local deliveries as the conditions are better?
    That’s the anecdotal evidence - some have moved to more sociable jobs driving smaller vehicles locally, and others have taken better pay offers to switch company on the HGVs.

    There’s apparently a wide variation in terms and conditions across the industry, for example some companies insist you sleep in your cab, while others cover a travel inn when away from home.
    So in short Redwood has a point.
    Maybe the UK should learn from the EU which generally has better conditions for lorry drivers than the UK AND Freedom of Movement.

    Lorry drivers benefit from freedom of movement for reasons that ought to be obvious, but apparently aren't. Lorry drivers, quite literally need freedom to move.
    Do you have some data on the better conditions - what they consist of, etc?
    Decent espresso at motorway service stations, Galois cigarettes, fresh croissants, that kind of thing.
    At every French motorway station I have been to, the coffee has been appealing. Actually worse than Costa Coffee.

    As for the food - was actually considerably worse than some UK services.
    British service stations have improved immeasurably over the last 20 years, admittedly from a low base.
    Obviously Killington Lakes Services is the best motorway service station in Britain but which is the worst?

    I nominate Hartshead Moor on the M62, where 'All Day Breakfast' takes on a whole new meaning.
    Not a motorway, as such, but the A1 has some indescribably bad services (or it did when I drove it in 2019). Like a trip back to the early 80s when the best you could hope for was Little Chef

    It has always amazed me how British service stations stayed so bad for so long. The entire country went through a food revolution, every high street is full of gastropubs and delis and ethnic restaurants, everyone has tried sushi and tacos and chicken penang - and expects decent and varied tucker

    Yet somehow the service stations stuck to their guns. Beans, chips, burgers, that's it. Why did no one think: wait, maybe people who drive on motorways are similar to people who eat in towns, and they would like some variety, maybe even some healthy food?

    Only in very recent years has it improved
    Continuing the subject of crap refreshment offerings can I give a star billing to the major cinema chains?

    Cineworld in particular seem to imagine that we all want massively overpriced caricatures of US snacks that you (thankfully) won't see anywhere outside a cinema in this country:

    Buckets of ice with coke syrup, buckets of tasteless popcorn, trays of stale tortilla chips with red gloop, flourescent frozen sugar slush, 'coffee' of 1970s vintage... I could go on.

    [I feel much better for that rant - thanks for listening!]
    Odeon seem to have tried making an effort in the last few years, not all with total success - they've added chicken strips and now mini pizzas so there's some choice at least! The strips were alright.

    It's overpriced, to be sure, but occasionally I get a hot dog as I do enjoy those and I know they have to make a profit somehow.
  • rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    Is it not the case that lots of qualified hgv drivers have switched to driving local deliveries as the conditions are better?
    That’s the anecdotal evidence - some have moved to more sociable jobs driving smaller vehicles locally, and others have taken better pay offers to switch company on the HGVs.

    There’s apparently a wide variation in terms and conditions across the industry, for example some companies insist you sleep in your cab, while others cover a travel inn when away from home.
    So in short Redwood has a point.
    Maybe the UK should learn from the EU which generally has better conditions for lorry drivers than the UK AND Freedom of Movement.

    Lorry drivers benefit from freedom of movement for reasons that ought to be obvious, but apparently aren't. Lorry drivers, quite literally need freedom to move.
    Do you have some data on the better conditions - what they consist of, etc?
    Decent espresso at motorway service stations, Galois cigarettes, fresh croissants, that kind of thing.
    At every French motorway station I have been to, the coffee has been appealing. Actually worse than Costa Coffee.

    As for the food - was actually considerably worse than some UK services.
    I wasn't being serious. Hence the Galois bit.

    I can't see how conditions could really be very different for continental and UK HGV drivers. I can see you'd might get paid more on the continent, simply because it's a bigger place, and you could easily find yourself with a 1,200 mile round trip.

    Of course, that potentially takes away from the quality of life too - as you'd be more likely to spend nights away from home.

    A question. If a British HGV driver takes a container from Birmingham to Bremen, is he allowed to bring one back in the other direction? Because it seems that that would be a major reason why being a UK based HGV driver might become a significantly less attractive proposition right now. Simply, if one third of your journeys involve leaving the UK, then you're only going to get paid for a single leg on those trips.
    My understanding is that (reciprocally) a load in either direction is OK but what's more likely restricted is the 'cabotage' between destinations within the foreign country.

    So a UK driver could go from the UK to Bremen, and then from Cologne to the UK, but the question is whether a load could be taken between Bremen and Cologne?

    My understanding is the UK/EU TCA deal gives HGV drivers respectively the right to 2 cabotage trips. So a drive could go UK -> Bremen -> Munster -> Cologne -> UK and be working the whole time. But they couldn't add a third route before starting their return to the UK route.

    I'm guessing if they take another load back into Europe they'd regain the right to 2 more cabotage trips before their UK return?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,970
    Leon said:

    Worth noting that every Labour conference in history has been deemed a shambles on PB. In fairness, the same probably applies to the Tory and Lib conferences.

    Fake news.

    The 2007 Labour conference was brilliant, everyone said so.

    Let’s be clear: this is a mad one. You won’t have heard it anywhere else, but you can take it from me. At the age of 38, this is my 17th consecutive Labour Party conference, and I’ve never been to one quite like this.

    It’s in the nature of collective hysteria that no single act can be adduced to prove its existence. But there is a fin de siecle, self-destructive, decadent craziness about Conference 2007. Somewhere in the wads of twenty somethings and thirtywouldbes jamming the chintzy Bournemouth bars long after they’re normally silent lurks the jitterbugging desperation of the Twenties before the Crash, Berlin between the wars, London as Imperial Glory died with its queen. The collective psyche of this group of individuals who’ve never had it so good has rarely been so uncertain.

    This is not a columnar conceit. I do not really have a thesis; no point to prove. I can only tentatively explain this atmosphere. But nor am I wrong. This mood is as real as the grief in the church. I am simply reporting what is here.

    Perhaps the magnitude of the moment we face is too great for us collectively to bear. Shortly there will be an election, in which Labour will increase its majority, and in so doing utterly shatter the glass paradigm of cyclical politics which has contained us for the century since 1906. This ought to herald another decade of strong, confident, consensual Labour government. Which will finally and irrevocably transform the nature of politics and civic life in Britain.

    That is a frightening responsibility. The young princes who now stride the parade ground with the confidence born of aristocratic schooling can never be afraid. They never have been. Like latter day Pushkins drilled in the elite academy of Brownian blitzkrieg, they are bursting with their sense of destiny. It’s not the Milibands, the Ballses or the Burnhams who are unconsciously nervous. This is the moment for which they were created. They are ready.


    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2007/09/labour-majority-increase
    One of the reasons that piece is endlessly rehashed on here is that it is quite a brilliant chunk of writing. Knowingly hyperbolic, wittily hysterical, that is a writer inhaling pure oxygen (and maybe a bit of coke) and lovin' it
    It's almost worth the Tories staying in power forever just to derive ever greater hilarity from that piece.
  • rcs1000 said:

    MattW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    Is it not the case that lots of qualified hgv drivers have switched to driving local deliveries as the conditions are better?
    That’s the anecdotal evidence - some have moved to more sociable jobs driving smaller vehicles locally, and others have taken better pay offers to switch company on the HGVs.

    There’s apparently a wide variation in terms and conditions across the industry, for example some companies insist you sleep in your cab, while others cover a travel inn when away from home.
    So in short Redwood has a point.
    Maybe the UK should learn from the EU which generally has better conditions for lorry drivers than the UK AND Freedom of Movement.

    Lorry drivers benefit from freedom of movement for reasons that ought to be obvious, but apparently aren't. Lorry drivers, quite literally need freedom to move.
    Do you have some data on the better conditions - what they consist of, etc?
    Decent espresso at motorway service stations, Galois cigarettes, fresh croissants, that kind of thing.
    At every French motorway station I have been to, the coffee has been appealing. Actually worse than Costa Coffee.

    As for the food - was actually considerably worse than some UK services.
    I wasn't being serious. Hence the Galois bit.

    I can't see how conditions could really be very different for continental and UK HGV drivers. I can see you'd might get paid more on the continent, simply because it's a bigger place, and you could easily find yourself with a 1,200 mile round trip.

    Of course, that potentially takes away from the quality of life too - as you'd be more likely to spend nights away from home.

    A question. If a British HGV driver takes a container from Birmingham to Bremen, is he allowed to bring one back in the other direction? Because it seems that that would be a major reason why being a UK based HGV driver might become a significantly less attractive proposition right now. Simply, if one third of your journeys involve leaving the UK, then you're only going to get paid for a single leg on those trips.
    I think so, but it will have to be arranged precisely, and there may be limits and much paperwork to do it from a third country.

    (I could be wrong on that, but it has that sort of feel.)
    And I'm guessing it wouldn't be possible to do Birmingham - Bremen - Bonn - Boulonge - Birmingham... which I guess probably happened a lot in the old days.

    That's 2 cabotage stops so should be OK.

    Equaliser for Brighton in final seconds.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 31,341
    Andy_JS said:

    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    For those who think the fuel crisis is fabricated there are some questions.

    So you think there is a shortage of tanker drivers. If not then it is reasonable to think the fuel crisis is fabricated.

    If you do think that there is a shortage of tanker drivers then you must accept that that would mean less fuel delivered to petrol stations. If less fuel is delivered to petrol stations then there will be a shortage.

    If there is a shortage, and you don't know when it will be alleviated, then it is rational to try to get petrol.

    Hence not panicking but rational.

    It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. People are panic buying because they know that other people will panic buy.

    I filled up on Friday morning when without this nonsense I would have filled up on Friday afternoon. It will last me until the end of October. I don't expect to have any problems filling up then.
    If you filled up on Friday morning you are what several contributors to PB would call a moron.

    You don't strike me as a moron.
    Morons are other people doing panic buying, not oneself being sensibly cautious by not being caught short with only half a tank.
    Absolutely.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 2,117
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 4,163
    Leon said:

    Evening again :)

    https://twitter.com/LouiseEllman/status/1442489286163668997

    I am sure we can all be pleased by this, whatever side we sit on. Anti-Semitism is being tackled.

    Its a good start.

    But only 70% of the Conference voted to tackle antisemitism, 27% voted against.

    That is scary and shows what a cesspit remains within your party. That 27% should be kicked out, its a cancer in remission at the moment but it can come back again in the future.
    To give him his due, Starmer is mostly picking the right fights and mostly just about getting his way. It's not pretty, and I agree that a lot of this stuff should be much less controversial than it is. But when people point and chortle at the many sh*tshow aspects of this conference, it's worth asking how else you go about cleaning a blocked toilet. And in that context, the noises off (including the resignation of Thingy Whatsisname) make sense as the howls of those who realise that howling is all that's left to them.

    Not yet sufficient. But necessary.
    This is a fair and interesting point. Starmer is doing a dirty job which has to be done? He won't win and become PM, but unless someone lays the groundwork - like he is doing - then Labour will never win.

    There is an imbalance however, and everyone who works for the Labour party knows this is true, in that large numbers of members and fellow travellers of the Labour party have much much less interest in winning general elections than they have in other things. This is far less true of the Tories.

    Starmer might wonder why the biggest obstacle to electability is the political activity of large numbers of his own party and their hangers on. It is obvious even to people who don't follow this stuff closely that he has not sorted his own party, so what makes them think his party can save the country?

    I shall carry on voting Labour in local elections but not in GEs.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 40,900
    edited September 27

    rcs1000 said:

    MattW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    Is it not the case that lots of qualified hgv drivers have switched to driving local deliveries as the conditions are better?
    That’s the anecdotal evidence - some have moved to more sociable jobs driving smaller vehicles locally, and others have taken better pay offers to switch company on the HGVs.

    There’s apparently a wide variation in terms and conditions across the industry, for example some companies insist you sleep in your cab, while others cover a travel inn when away from home.
    So in short Redwood has a point.
    Maybe the UK should learn from the EU which generally has better conditions for lorry drivers than the UK AND Freedom of Movement.

    Lorry drivers benefit from freedom of movement for reasons that ought to be obvious, but apparently aren't. Lorry drivers, quite literally need freedom to move.
    Do you have some data on the better conditions - what they consist of, etc?
    Decent espresso at motorway service stations, Galois cigarettes, fresh croissants, that kind of thing.
    At every French motorway station I have been to, the coffee has been appealing. Actually worse than Costa Coffee.

    As for the food - was actually considerably worse than some UK services.
    I wasn't being serious. Hence the Galois bit.

    I can't see how conditions could really be very different for continental and UK HGV drivers. I can see you'd might get paid more on the continent, simply because it's a bigger place, and you could easily find yourself with a 1,200 mile round trip.

    Of course, that potentially takes away from the quality of life too - as you'd be more likely to spend nights away from home.

    A question. If a British HGV driver takes a container from Birmingham to Bremen, is he allowed to bring one back in the other direction? Because it seems that that would be a major reason why being a UK based HGV driver might become a significantly less attractive proposition right now. Simply, if one third of your journeys involve leaving the UK, then you're only going to get paid for a single leg on those trips.
    I think so, but it will have to be arranged precisely, and there may be limits and much paperwork to do it from a third country.

    (I could be wrong on that, but it has that sort of feel.)
    And I'm guessing it wouldn't be possible to do Birmingham - Bremen - Bonn - Boulonge - Birmingham... which I guess probably happened a lot in the old days.

    That's 2 cabotage stops so should be OK.

    Equaliser for Brighton in final seconds.
    (I was thinking of adding Boston, but Brighton is much better...)

    It's just a bit more complicated than in the old days, when you were dispatched all over the place. As a UK trucker, you're probably going to end up with more empty legs than you might have done in the old days.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,514
    "A man has been charged with the murder of the teacher Sabina Nessa in Kidbrooke. Koci Selamaj, who’s 36 and lives in Terminus Road in Eastbourne, will appear at Willesden Magistrates’ Court tomorrow."

    https://twitter.com/SimonJonesNews/status/1442571864925081602?s=20

    I sense Farage polishing his electoral brogues, as the Guardian quietly avoids the story
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,970
    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    Starmer's gonna get heckled during his speech.

    He'll have to ad lib something inspirational like, "Nobody is ruling out paying anybody £15 an hour!"
    The pressure the raise the minimum wage is going to become a lot lower over the next few years as labour shortages start to bite and employers in the lower end services sectors have to raise hourly rates. Minimum wage was a policy for an era of free movement of cheap labour undercutting low wage workers.

    They're constantly fighting the last war. The next one is already older voters leeching off working age people, it's not just happening here. All across the western world where the number of workers per retired person is declining older voters want a larger and larger slice of the pie.
    Exactly this.

    The next battle is the one between the generations.
    One of the benefits of having a walled labour market like Switzerland is that is hugely, hugely benefits younger people as higher wages for lower skilled labour is an effective transfer of wealth from older people to younger people because the cost of services rises faster than their incomes. The older leavers who voted to end free movement have essentially voted for massive pay rises for the young at their own expense.
    Indeed. People act as if the only way to support the older retirees is having more and more workers - and if the workers were highly-skilled, highly-productive, well-paid and self-sufficient that'd be the case.

    But its not true. We've instead had a perverted economic model where successful people can struggle to move here for a well paying job, but anyone unskilled and unemployed can just get on the bus and get a minimum wage job and "in work benefits" and housing benefit.
    Plus this story, still bubbling under, but with grave potential to hurt the Tories


    "669 migrants reached the UK yesterday on 22 boats. It brings the total number for this year to more than 17,000 people - double the number for the whole of last yea"

    https://twitter.com/SimonJonesNews/status/1442549494785064967?s=20
    I suspect right now the French are doing precisely nothing to stop the boats, and may in fact be giving them a push and a wave off.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 8,737
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    Is it not the case that lots of qualified hgv drivers have switched to driving local deliveries as the conditions are better?
    That’s the anecdotal evidence - some have moved to more sociable jobs driving smaller vehicles locally, and others have taken better pay offers to switch company on the HGVs.

    There’s apparently a wide variation in terms and conditions across the industry, for example some companies insist you sleep in your cab, while others cover a travel inn when away from home.
    So in short Redwood has a point.
    Maybe the UK should learn from the EU which generally has better conditions for lorry drivers than the UK AND Freedom of Movement.

    Lorry drivers benefit from freedom of movement for reasons that ought to be obvious, but apparently aren't. Lorry drivers, quite literally need freedom to move.
    Do you have some data on the better conditions - what they consist of, etc?
    Decent espresso at motorway service stations, Galois cigarettes, fresh croissants, that kind of thing.
    At every French motorway station I have been to, the coffee has been appealing. Actually worse than Costa Coffee.

    As for the food - was actually considerably worse than some UK services.
    Yes, the idea that French autoroute service stations are a bastion of good food and coffee is badly damaged by, say, an actual visit to a French autoroute service station

    There are exceptions, but you generally get a coffee machine like in W H Smiths at Heston on the M4, and a tired selection of baguettes with thin cheese and ham, or a listlessly made cafe au lait. You don't even get the outlets of M&S and Waitrose or Pret where you might get an interesting sandwich

    I suspect Robert's memories of French autoroutes are deeply coloured by holiday journeys as a boy when you pulled over into the Relais Routier and you got confit de canard and a carafe of red wine for 2 quid and it was all home made and fresh, and, alas, largely gone now
    Part of the problem is, food without wine is so uninteresting you might as well have it administered via suppository.
  • kamski said:
    Of all the 'cult of personality' stories we hear from countries around the world, the 'cult' working to get people to get vaccinated is really refreshing.

    It not unusual in countries like to hear that a campaign to get lots done in one day sees stuff done just before or after falsely get recorded on the campaign date itself.

    Could be a lot worse.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,970

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    Is it not the case that lots of qualified hgv drivers have switched to driving local deliveries as the conditions are better?
    That’s the anecdotal evidence - some have moved to more sociable jobs driving smaller vehicles locally, and others have taken better pay offers to switch company on the HGVs.

    There’s apparently a wide variation in terms and conditions across the industry, for example some companies insist you sleep in your cab, while others cover a travel inn when away from home.
    So in short Redwood has a point.
    Maybe the UK should learn from the EU which generally has better conditions for lorry drivers than the UK AND Freedom of Movement.

    Lorry drivers benefit from freedom of movement for reasons that ought to be obvious, but apparently aren't. Lorry drivers, quite literally need freedom to move.
    Do you have some data on the better conditions - what they consist of, etc?
    Decent espresso at motorway service stations, Galois cigarettes, fresh croissants, that kind of thing.
    At every French motorway station I have been to, the coffee has been appealing. Actually worse than Costa Coffee.

    As for the food - was actually considerably worse than some UK services.
    British service stations have improved immeasurably over the last 20 years, admittedly from a low base.
    Obviously Killington Lakes Services is the best motorway service station in Britain but which is the worst?

    I nominate Hartshead Moor on the M62, where 'All Day Breakfast' takes on a whole new meaning.
    Not a motorway, as such, but the A1 has some indescribably bad services (or it did when I drove it in 2019). Like a trip back to the early 80s when the best you could hope for was Little Chef

    It has always amazed me how British service stations stayed so bad for so long. The entire country went through a food revolution, every high street is full of gastropubs and delis and ethnic restaurants, everyone has tried sushi and tacos and chicken penang - and expects decent and varied tucker

    Yet somehow the service stations stuck to their guns. Beans, chips, burgers, that's it. Why did no one think: wait, maybe people who drive on motorways are similar to people who eat in towns, and they would like some variety, maybe even some healthy food?

    Only in very recent years has it improved
    Continuing the subject of crap refreshment offerings can I give a star billing to the major cinema chains?

    Cineworld in particular seem to imagine that we all want massively overpriced caricatures of US snacks that you (thankfully) won't see anywhere outside a cinema in this country:

    Buckets of ice with coke syrup, buckets of tasteless popcorn, trays of stale tortilla chips with red gloop, flourescent frozen sugar slush, 'coffee' of 1970s vintage... I could go on.

    [I feel much better for that rant - thanks for listening!]
    All true, and it's where they make most of their money.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,435
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    Is it not the case that lots of qualified hgv drivers have switched to driving local deliveries as the conditions are better?
    That’s the anecdotal evidence - some have moved to more sociable jobs driving smaller vehicles locally, and others have taken better pay offers to switch company on the HGVs.

    There’s apparently a wide variation in terms and conditions across the industry, for example some companies insist you sleep in your cab, while others cover a travel inn when away from home.
    So in short Redwood has a point.
    Maybe the UK should learn from the EU which generally has better conditions for lorry drivers than the UK AND Freedom of Movement.

    Lorry drivers benefit from freedom of movement for reasons that ought to be obvious, but apparently aren't. Lorry drivers, quite literally need freedom to move.
    Do you have some data on the better conditions - what they consist of, etc?
    Decent espresso at motorway service stations, Galois cigarettes, fresh croissants, that kind of thing.
    At every French motorway station I have been to, the coffee has been appealing. Actually worse than Costa Coffee.

    As for the food - was actually considerably worse than some UK services.
    British service stations have improved immeasurably over the last 20 years, admittedly from a low base.
    Obviously Killington Lakes Services is the best motorway service station in Britain but which is the worst?

    I nominate Hartshead Moor on the M62, where 'All Day Breakfast' takes on a whole new meaning.
    Not a motorway, as such, but the A1 has some indescribably bad services (or it did when I drove it in 2019). Like a trip back to the early 80s when the best you could hope for was Little Chef

    It has always amazed me how British service stations stayed so bad for so long. The entire country went through a food revolution, every high street is full of gastropubs and delis and ethnic restaurants, everyone has tried sushi and tacos and chicken penang - and expects decent and varied tucker

    Yet somehow the service stations stuck to their guns. Beans, chips, burgers, that's it. Why did no one think: wait, maybe people who drive on motorways are similar to people who eat in towns, and they would like some variety, maybe even some healthy food?

    Only in very recent years has it improved
    Continuing the subject of crap refreshment offerings can I give a star billing to the major cinema chains?

    Cineworld in particular seem to imagine that we all want massively overpriced caricatures of US snacks that you (thankfully) won't see anywhere outside a cinema in this country:

    Buckets of ice with coke syrup, buckets of tasteless popcorn, trays of stale tortilla chips with red gloop, flourescent frozen sugar slush, 'coffee' of 1970s vintage... I could go on.

    [I feel much better for that rant - thanks for listening!]
    Odeon seem to have tried making an effort in the last few years, not all with total success - they've added chicken strips and now mini pizzas so there's some choice at least! The strips were alright.

    It's overpriced, to be sure, but occasionally I get a hot dog as I do enjoy those and I know they have to make a profit somehow.
    It just seems like such a missed opportunity to me. Hardly anyone buys food or drinks at our local Cineworld. Most seem to eat and drink at nearby bars and restaurants before or after. A lot of people smuggle in their own snacks.

    The NT, RSC etc live screenings are hilarious - the pensioner set turn up with cool bags and hampers which are wheeled in before the screening, for a 'picnic' in the interval. The young kids on the gate are either not bold enough or can't be arsed to challenge under the 'no food to be brought in' rules.
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