Ed Davey’s LibDems have been going in hard on Afghanistan, both calling for a greater number of refugees to be allowed into the UK and strongly condemning the US & UK military withdrawal, saying “our leaders should all hang their heads in shame.”
Back at the LibDems’ 2009 conference, their future leader was instead calling for “tea with the Taliban”, and for Taliban fighters to be offered “a decent daily wage” to get them to defect. Now he criticises the withdrawal of troops, yet ten years ago Davey told the LibDem faithful:
“You don’t win wars by fighting in Afghanistan: witness the Soviets, witness the three Anglo-Afghan wars fought by the British Empire, witness Alexander the Great.”
His final statement was and will always be entirely correct.
Ed Davey’s LibDems have been going in hard on Afghanistan, both calling for a greater number of refugees to be allowed into the UK and strongly condemning the US & UK military withdrawal, saying “our leaders should all hang their heads in shame.”
Back at the LibDems’ 2009 conference, their future leader was instead calling for “tea with the Taliban”, and for Taliban fighters to be offered “a decent daily wage” to get them to defect. Now he criticises the withdrawal of troops, yet ten years ago Davey told the LibDem faithful:
“You don’t win wars by fighting in Afghanistan: witness the Soviets, witness the three Anglo-Afghan wars fought by the British Empire, witness Alexander the Great.”
Mainly because of the complete change of the LD voter coalition.
Most of the current LD vote is made up of centrist Remainers who voted for Blair and/or Cameron.
Most of the pre 2010 LD vote was made up of leftwing anti Iraq war voters who defected to Labour when Ed Miliband and Corbyn took over and are still voting Labour or even Green post Starmer
I'm surprised that you think pandering to voters is more important than consistency of principle.
Ed Davey’s LibDems have been going in hard on Afghanistan, both calling for a greater number of refugees to be allowed into the UK and strongly condemning the US & UK military withdrawal, saying “our leaders should all hang their heads in shame.”
Back at the LibDems’ 2009 conference, their future leader was instead calling for “tea with the Taliban”, and for Taliban fighters to be offered “a decent daily wage” to get them to defect. Now he criticises the withdrawal of troops, yet ten years ago Davey told the LibDem faithful:
“You don’t win wars by fighting in Afghanistan: witness the Soviets, witness the three Anglo-Afghan wars fought by the British Empire, witness Alexander the Great.”
Mainly because of the complete change of the LD voter coalition.
Most of the current LD vote is made up of centrist Remainers who voted for Blair and/or Cameron.
Most of the pre 2010 LD vote was made up of leftwing anti Iraq war voters who defected to Labour when Ed Miliband and Corbyn took over and are still voting Labour or even Green post Starmer
I'm surprised that you think pandering to voters is more important than consistency of principle.
Narrator: he was not surprised.
Consistency of principle is rather pointless for most party leaders if you lose your current voting block.
Plus from Gladstone to Ashdown the Liberals have had a long history of backing moral interventions abroad for human rights reasons
Cracking quote regarding Biden from Tom Tugendhat. What a shame Biden will not get to hear it.
If he did would he care anyway ? Would Johnson care if an obscure US politician commented on him ?
One might hope that as he was, like his predecessor, a draft dodger, he might cringe at the realisation he outrageously called people much braver than him cowards.
I don’t think he will give a stuff about any of it. It’s all. America first and US domestic consumption.
Ed Davey’s LibDems have been going in hard on Afghanistan, both calling for a greater number of refugees to be allowed into the UK and strongly condemning the US & UK military withdrawal, saying “our leaders should all hang their heads in shame.”
Back at the LibDems’ 2009 conference, their future leader was instead calling for “tea with the Taliban”, and for Taliban fighters to be offered “a decent daily wage” to get them to defect. Now he criticises the withdrawal of troops, yet ten years ago Davey told the LibDem faithful:
“You don’t win wars by fighting in Afghanistan: witness the Soviets, witness the three Anglo-Afghan wars fought by the British Empire, witness Alexander the Great.”
Mainly because of the complete change of the LD voter coalition.
Most of the current LD vote is made up of centrist Remainers who voted for Blair and/or Cameron.
Most of the pre 2010 LD vote was made up of leftwing anti Iraq war voters who defected to Labour when Ed Miliband and Corbyn took over and are still voting Labour or even Green post Starmer
I'm surprised that you think pandering to voters is more important than consistency of principle.
Narrator: he was not surprised.
Consistency of principle is rather pointless for most party leaders if you lose your current voting block
But surely if you don't bother with consistency of principle you end up losing past/current voters anyway?
Ed Davey’s LibDems have been going in hard on Afghanistan, both calling for a greater number of refugees to be allowed into the UK and strongly condemning the US & UK military withdrawal, saying “our leaders should all hang their heads in shame.”
Back at the LibDems’ 2009 conference, their future leader was instead calling for “tea with the Taliban”, and for Taliban fighters to be offered “a decent daily wage” to get them to defect. Now he criticises the withdrawal of troops, yet ten years ago Davey told the LibDem faithful:
“You don’t win wars by fighting in Afghanistan: witness the Soviets, witness the three Anglo-Afghan wars fought by the British Empire, witness Alexander the Great.”
Mainly because of the complete change of the LD voter coalition.
Most of the current LD vote is made up of centrist Remainers many of whom voted for Blair and/or Cameron.
Most of the pre 2010 LD vote was made up of leftwing anti Iraq war voters who defected back to Labour when Ed Miliband and Corbyn took over and are still voting Labour or even Green post Starmer
Are you sure? Most of the LDs I know were LDs pre 2010 and still are. They've lost some along the way, sure, and they had that membership surge, but I'd be curious if they really have changed so much.
Ed Davey’s LibDems have been going in hard on Afghanistan, both calling for a greater number of refugees to be allowed into the UK and strongly condemning the US & UK military withdrawal, saying “our leaders should all hang their heads in shame.”
Back at the LibDems’ 2009 conference, their future leader was instead calling for “tea with the Taliban”, and for Taliban fighters to be offered “a decent daily wage” to get them to defect. Now he criticises the withdrawal of troops, yet ten years ago Davey told the LibDem faithful:
“You don’t win wars by fighting in Afghanistan: witness the Soviets, witness the three Anglo-Afghan wars fought by the British Empire, witness Alexander the Great.”
Mainly because of the complete change of the LD voter coalition.
Most of the current LD vote is made up of centrist Remainers who voted for Blair and/or Cameron.
Most of the pre 2010 LD vote was made up of leftwing anti Iraq war voters who defected to Labour when Ed Miliband and Corbyn took over and are still voting Labour or even Green post Starmer
I'm surprised that you think pandering to voters is more important than consistency of principle.
Narrator: he was not surprised.
Consistency of principle is rather pointless for most party leaders if you lose your current voting block
But surely if you don't bother with consistency of principle you end up losing past/current voters anyway?
The coalition lost LD leftwing pacifist voters to Labour and the SNP, they are not coming back.
Davey's current target vote tends be ex Tory Remainers in the Home Counties
Commentators seem to be assuming that the Taliban have achieved and can maintain high degree of control. I wonder. Must be a good chance of internal conflict developing.
Ed Davey’s LibDems have been going in hard on Afghanistan, both calling for a greater number of refugees to be allowed into the UK and strongly condemning the US & UK military withdrawal, saying “our leaders should all hang their heads in shame.”
Back at the LibDems’ 2009 conference, their future leader was instead calling for “tea with the Taliban”, and for Taliban fighters to be offered “a decent daily wage” to get them to defect. Now he criticises the withdrawal of troops, yet ten years ago Davey told the LibDem faithful:
“You don’t win wars by fighting in Afghanistan: witness the Soviets, witness the three Anglo-Afghan wars fought by the British Empire, witness Alexander the Great.”
Mainly because of the complete change of the LD voter coalition.
Most of the current LD vote is made up of centrist Remainers many of whom voted for Blair and/or Cameron.
Most of the pre 2010 LD vote was made up of leftwing anti Iraq war voters who defected back to Labour when Ed Miliband and Corbyn took over and are still voting Labour or even Green post Starmer
Are you sure? Most of the LDs I know were LDs pre 2010 and still are. They've lost some along the way, sure, and they had that membership surge, but I'd be curious if they really have changed so much.
LDs got about 23% in 2005 and 2010, they are now on 10% at best.
Some Tory Remainers went LD in 2017 and 2019, it is pretty obvious.
There are a few diehard Liberals still but the anti war left who backed Kennedy are almost all voting Labour or Green or SNP now
Inflation at 2% in July and in line with BOE forecast
The price of clothing must have dropped like a stone to over compensate for my £1.36 per litre for diesel this morning.
Maybe it is difficult to put one litre of diesel in a basket of household essentials. It certainly wouldn't do much for the clothes from Primark. But then again...
Inflation at 2% in July and in line with BOE forecast
The price of clothing must have dropped like a stone to over compensate for my £1.36 per litre for diesel this morning.
Maybe it is difficult to put one litre of diesel in a basket of household essentials. It certainly wouldn't do much for the clothes from Primark. But then again...
My local Asda was 1.29 or was last week
That's a hot favourite. Might lay it. What's the event?
Ed Davey’s LibDems have been going in hard on Afghanistan, both calling for a greater number of refugees to be allowed into the UK and strongly condemning the US & UK military withdrawal, saying “our leaders should all hang their heads in shame.”
Back at the LibDems’ 2009 conference, their future leader was instead calling for “tea with the Taliban”, and for Taliban fighters to be offered “a decent daily wage” to get them to defect. Now he criticises the withdrawal of troops, yet ten years ago Davey told the LibDem faithful:
“You don’t win wars by fighting in Afghanistan: witness the Soviets, witness the three Anglo-Afghan wars fought by the British Empire, witness Alexander the Great.”
And? Trying to encourage the evolution of Afghan society away from Jihad was one of the strategies pursued back in 2009.
He isn't calling for us to keep fighting, he is criticising the chaotic unplanned nature of the withdrawal. No wonder that Guido is having a pop though, have to do *something* to try and defend a government which is taking an absolute kicking from its own MPs.
Edinburgh Council elections could see SNP follow Nicola Sturgeon and form new pact with Greens
Labour's Cammy Day and the SNP's Adam McVey may not be the coalition leaders after next year's election with the chance of a deal with the Greens instead.
The Greens up at the City Chambers have kept an arm’s length distance between themselves and the SNP/Labour coalition but, when push has come to shove, have lent their support when it mattered.
… the Conservatives are destined to once more play a bit part in the next council term.
As an aside, dock leaves cure the stinging of nettles.
This is the sum total of my herb lore.
We always knew you were no sage.
Never at any thyme?
Not since he cumin from the cold.
To be pedantic Cumin is a spice, not a herb. As it is a ground up seed. Appreciate that’s not probably the most pressing issue.
To be ultra-pedantic, Cuminum cyminum is botanically a herbaceous plant (related to Parsley). The substance used in cooking may or may not be defined as a herb (if you take that to mean leaves only).
Ed Davey’s LibDems have been going in hard on Afghanistan, both calling for a greater number of refugees to be allowed into the UK and strongly condemning the US & UK military withdrawal, saying “our leaders should all hang their heads in shame.”
Back at the LibDems’ 2009 conference, their future leader was instead calling for “tea with the Taliban”, and for Taliban fighters to be offered “a decent daily wage” to get them to defect. Now he criticises the withdrawal of troops, yet ten years ago Davey told the LibDem faithful:
“You don’t win wars by fighting in Afghanistan: witness the Soviets, witness the three Anglo-Afghan wars fought by the British Empire, witness Alexander the Great.”
Mainly because of the complete change of the LD voter coalition.
Most of the current LD vote is made up of centrist Remainers who voted for Blair and/or Cameron.
Most of the pre 2010 LD vote was made up of leftwing anti Iraq war voters who defected to Labour when Ed Miliband and Corbyn took over and are still voting Labour or even Green post Starmer
I'm surprised that you think pandering to voters is more important than consistency of principle.
Narrator: he was not surprised.
Consistency of principle is rather pointless for most party leaders if you lose your current voting block
But surely if you don't bother with consistency of principle you end up losing past/current voters anyway?
The coalition lost LD leftwing pacifist voters to Labour and the SNP, they are not coming back.
Davey's current target vote tends be ex Tory Remainers in the Home Counties
And don’t the SLDs know it! The positioning is all wrong for them. They need a new Charlie Kennedy. Even a new Jim Wallace would do.
Ed Davey’s LibDems have been going in hard on Afghanistan, both calling for a greater number of refugees to be allowed into the UK and strongly condemning the US & UK military withdrawal, saying “our leaders should all hang their heads in shame.”
Back at the LibDems’ 2009 conference, their future leader was instead calling for “tea with the Taliban”, and for Taliban fighters to be offered “a decent daily wage” to get them to defect. Now he criticises the withdrawal of troops, yet ten years ago Davey told the LibDem faithful:
“You don’t win wars by fighting in Afghanistan: witness the Soviets, witness the three Anglo-Afghan wars fought by the British Empire, witness Alexander the Great.”
Mainly because of the complete change of the LD voter coalition.
Most of the current LD vote is made up of centrist Remainers who voted for Blair and/or Cameron.
Most of the pre 2010 LD vote was made up of leftwing anti Iraq war voters who defected to Labour when Ed Miliband and Corbyn took over and are still voting Labour or even Green post Starmer
I'm surprised that you think pandering to voters is more important than consistency of principle.
Narrator: he was not surprised.
Consistency of principle is rather pointless for most party leaders if you lose your current voting block
But surely if you don't bother with consistency of principle you end up losing past/current voters anyway?
The coalition lost LD leftwing pacifist voters to Labour and the SNP, they are not coming back.
Davey's current target vote tends be ex Tory Remainers in the Home Counties
And don’t the SLDs know it! The positioning is all wrong for them. They need a new Charlie Kennedy. Even a new Jim Wallace would do.
Though even Kennedy lost his seat to the SNP in 2015
Tugendhat was superb. Put money on him to have a serious impact in the party going forward
Genuinely important stuff in parliament at the moment. Feels like a shift in Johnson’s leadership in terms of overall tone and patience running out, and a genuine acknowledgment we cannot rely on America anymore
I’ve not seen a house so directly critical to a US president (Trump excluded). I even agreed with Blackwood
Your post is nonsensical.
Cannot rely on America.
What does that mean? What is the UK's independent policy on Afghan?
More to the point if it's true then are we as a nation looking to triple/quadruple the defence budget? I doubt it.
And bring back conscription given that the armed forces haven't managed to meet their manpower targets for many years, even as we've shrunk them.
One of the advantages of conscription is that it would make the electorate extremely reluctant to enter into foreign escapades.
Like what happened to the Glosters in Korea: many conscripts there.
But the disadvantage is the disproportionate impact on the poor and non-criminal of society (the powerful can evade, or get cushy numbers, and the criminals get rejected).
My dad was a lieutenant>captain (volunteered) in the Glosters for Korea. I never asked him but I assume that the Glosters was the catch all unit for anyone wanting to sign up for that conflict?
Memory was that the men who fought the last stand of the Glosters included conscripts (and reservists) who were called up to the Reg Depot and were volunteered rather than volunterring to go out East. But I'll have a look for the book I have in mind - couldn't find it on a quick check. Will PM you when I come across it.
To The Last Round ?
Andrew Salmon's Scorched Earth, Black Snow was also excellent.
No; the book I have in mind was a collection of accounts of National Service. B S Johnson 'All bull' A particularly good one, getting away from the usual 'Carry on Sergeant' style of life (though the film of that name captures a certain side of it, especially the more futile whitewashing the coal in the depot life). For instance the book had David Hockney's account of being a hospital orderly (as a conscientious objector) and (I think) Alan Sillitoe as an operator for blind bombing beams during the Malayan Emergency. But I can't verify my memory for TUD re the Glosters - or even if they were included - 'till I find my copy!
However the more recent formal but very readable history by David Vinen 'National service: a generation in uniform 1945-1963' does comnfirm that plenty of conscripts and reservists were called up and sent to Korea - no obvious mention of volunteering (though I'm sure one could ask to be put on a draft to Korea rather than somewhere else, esp. if one was an officer). It was only those under 19 or almost finishing their terms of service who were let off - and the Gmt increased the term of conscription because of the Korean war.
I've always been scepticxal about conscription (certainly, without heavy modifications such as consc ientious objection and alternative service) after reading the first book and I haven't changed my views: much as with capital punishment, an awareness of history does inform one.
My father was on the reserve (King's Shropshire Light Infantry) and received papers (or a letter saying he might be called up) but thankfully was not
My grandad was rejected for flat feet. Most of those in his village who were accepted went to the Somme. "Pop over to France. Take a shufty. Don't come back."
Ed Davey’s LibDems have been going in hard on Afghanistan, both calling for a greater number of refugees to be allowed into the UK and strongly condemning the US & UK military withdrawal, saying “our leaders should all hang their heads in shame.”
Back at the LibDems’ 2009 conference, their future leader was instead calling for “tea with the Taliban”, and for Taliban fighters to be offered “a decent daily wage” to get them to defect. Now he criticises the withdrawal of troops, yet ten years ago Davey told the LibDem faithful:
“You don’t win wars by fighting in Afghanistan: witness the Soviets, witness the three Anglo-Afghan wars fought by the British Empire, witness Alexander the Great.”
Mainly because of the complete change of the LD voter coalition.
Most of the current LD vote is made up of centrist Remainers who voted for Blair and/or Cameron.
Most of the pre 2010 LD vote was made up of leftwing anti Iraq war voters who defected to Labour when Ed Miliband and Corbyn took over and are still voting Labour or even Green post Starmer
I'm surprised that you think pandering to voters is more important than consistency of principle.
Narrator: he was not surprised.
Consistency of principle is rather pointless for most party leaders if you lose your current voting block
But surely if you don't bother with consistency of principle you end up losing past/current voters anyway?
The coalition lost LD leftwing pacifist voters to Labour and the SNP, they are not coming back.
Davey's current target vote tends be ex Tory Remainers in the Home Counties
And don’t the SLDs know it! The positioning is all wrong for them. They need a new Charlie Kennedy. Even a new Jim Wallace would do.
Though even Kennedy lost his seat to the SNP in 2015
But who didn’t? The amazing thing is that the Liberals, then LDs, held that area for so long, against all the odds.
Mr. Jessop, the nettles round here have rarely been so large due to the combination of lots of rain and lots of sun. The path is well-used but the nettles and so forth are still bigger than ever.
As an aside, dock leaves cure the stinging of nettles.
This is the sum total of my herb lore.
We always knew you were no sage.
Never at any thyme?
Not since he cumin from the cold.
To be pedantic Cumin is a spice, not a herb. As it is a ground up seed. Appreciate that’s not probably the most pressing issue.
To be ultra-pedantic, Cuminum cyminum is botanically a herbaceous plant (related to Parsley). The substance used in cooking may or may not be defined as a herb (if you take that to mean leaves only).
My understanding is that, in culinary usage, spices are from seeds, fruits, bark, flowers and roots, and herbs from leaves, regardless of whether the plant is herbaceous or not.
Edinburgh Council elections could see SNP follow Nicola Sturgeon and form new pact with Greens
Labour's Cammy Day and the SNP's Adam McVey may not be the coalition leaders after next year's election with the chance of a deal with the Greens instead.
The Greens up at the City Chambers have kept an arm’s length distance between themselves and the SNP/Labour coalition but, when push has come to shove, have lent their support when it mattered.
… the Conservatives are destined to once more play a bit part in the next council term.
Commentators seem to be assuming that the Taliban have achieved and can maintain high degree of control. I wonder. Must be a good chance of internal conflict developing.
I'd imagine tens of thousands of armed, sexually frustrated yoot high on adrenaline and jihad might become a problem, particularly if the old yins are in any way serious about their peaceful transition stuff.
Buried in that gem of a @theresa_may speech, this line... Not from Macron. From the last British PM. "What does it say about us, what does it say about NATO if we are entirely dependent on a unilateral decision taken by the United States."
Exactly
Couldn’t that have been said that at anytime in the last 70 years? George Michael wrote a song about it in 2002!
I think in terms of it being so blatantly obvious, no. We’ve tended to go along in lock step - this is the first incident I can recall where we’ve been quite so let down by an action that seems to have been made in total isolation by the USA.
If the USA is unable to work multilaterally, then that signals the end of the golden period for USA dominance. It cannot act unilaterally without consequence any longer.
We have been insignificant lapdogs to the US for generations, militarily. Maybe one good thing to come out if this is that people will realise that now
"But the special relationship". America has been increasingly bonkers for a good while and is now deep into a cultural civil war with the lunatics desperate for Gilead.
One of the positive things being advocated by Brexiteers is the proposed CANZUK group. It will do sod all to replace trade lost locally, but strategically it could be an alternative to an America-led world where America first really means shitkickers first and try to stop half of America from voting.
You seem to be so busy attacking the American Right, that you have failed to notice that today's specific issue of unilateral US withdrawal from Afghanistan without proper planning, is entirely owned by a Democrat President.
Trump was a Democrat?
Biden has literally said, "the buck stops with me".
He's been in power for eight months, for goodness' sake.
Yep. He is taking direct ownership of this shit show much to his credit. My point was in response to "entirely owned by a Democrat President" which ignores that this is Trump's plan, claimed by both Trump and the GOP as their success, where they said Biden hadn't withdrawn fast enough in his 8 months.
The buck stops with Biden. But to claim no ownership by Trump is laughable. Trump negotiated this withdrawal with the Taliban - no way to row back on that catastrophic strategic fubar.
No way? If they wanted to they could have found a way.
Only by breaking an Agreement (Doha) signed by Trump and the Taliban in Feb 2020.
Obviously, if it had been Boris rather than Biden, he would have had no hesitation in breaking a signed agreement.
Yep, Boris and Frostie would have stitched up the Taliban good and proper.
As an aside, dock leaves cure the stinging of nettles.
This is the sum total of my herb lore.
A few weeks ago I had to run through fifty metres of waist-high nettles (*). I had full-length trousers on, but still got nettle stings all up my legs. And on my privates.
Sadly there were no dock leaves to rub on my d*ck. Or perhaps fortunately, as a woman was feeding horses in an adjacent paddock.
Not my best run ever ...
(*) An apparently very-disused public footpath. Except the nettles were either side of, and in, an immaculate metal clappergate.
You should, perhaps, have asked to borrow the horse?
(As a preventative measure, to raise you above the danger zone, so to speak; I don't think borrowing the horse after exposure would have been useful. It's also possible, depending on the horse and your experience, that the cure would be worse than the disease!)
“You don’t win wars by fighting in Afghanistan: witness the Soviets, witness the three Anglo-Afghan wars fought by the British Empire, witness Alexander the Great.”
Brutal. Richard Drax reads a text from a "very distinguished" General about the government's "filleting" of the army. The defence review means that we could not sustain future operations. Cutting our army by 10,000 - some signal of our intent, some signal to our allies"
I've been re-reading one of my favourite history books, Games Without Rules by Tamim Ansary, published in 2012. It's not a piece of research to compare with Line in the Sand, or Postwar, and it gets some details wrong, but it provides as strong an insight as any work I know.
Its postscript feels like essential reading at the moment. Certainly it resonates with the bleak events since it was written, but it also provides some hope for the future, even under Taliban control. For example:
"The great powers have a stake in making Afghanistan more governable, but the only people who can achieve this happy result are Afghans, because it depends on the resolution of contradictions within Afghanistan. Once the foreign power withdraws in disgust... some new permutation of the Afghan urban, or rural, ruling classes comes back to power, its prestige renewed by the role it has supposedly played in driving out foreigners. The pendulum then swings back from fragmentation towards centralisation....
"Every Afghan government must renew this project. No Afghan government can simply let go, and watch the society come apart, because the foreigners are out there always. If it isn't the United States, it will be China. If not China, Iran. If not Iran, then India or Russia, or some combination of Arab powers, or of those central Asian republics....
"As soon as new rulers secure credibility among Afghans, they do two things. One, they move toward a cautious accommodation with some chosen outside force, while publically asserting non-alignment in world politics. And two, they start trying to push the Afghan customs and values into alignment with those of the world at large....
"This will happen again, whether elections bring another DC approved modernist to the presidency, or the Taliban overwhelm the cities and take power again. It will happen because, confoundingly enough, the constant threat of great power interventions make the centralising power in Kabul outward looking and oriented toward membership in the modern world. If the Taliban succeed in taking over, you can be sure they will develop this same outward looking orientation and attraction to some version of modernity very shortly."
This isn't wishful thinking - Ansary despises the Taliban as much as the rest of us - but based on analysis of history. Of course he could be wrong, but so far his judgment has been more sound than that of most experts in Afghanistan.
Buried in that gem of a @theresa_may speech, this line... Not from Macron. From the last British PM. "What does it say about us, what does it say about NATO if we are entirely dependent on a unilateral decision taken by the United States."
Exactly
Couldn’t that have been said that at anytime in the last 70 years? George Michael wrote a song about it in 2002!
I think in terms of it being so blatantly obvious, no. We’ve tended to go along in lock step - this is the first incident I can recall where we’ve been quite so let down by an action that seems to have been made in total isolation by the USA.
If the USA is unable to work multilaterally, then that signals the end of the golden period for USA dominance. It cannot act unilaterally without consequence any longer.
We have been insignificant lapdogs to the US for generations, militarily. Maybe one good thing to come out if this is that people will realise that now
"But the special relationship". America has been increasingly bonkers for a good while and is now deep into a cultural civil war with the lunatics desperate for Gilead.
One of the positive things being advocated by Brexiteers is the proposed CANZUK group. It will do sod all to replace trade lost locally, but strategically it could be an alternative to an America-led world where America first really means shitkickers first and try to stop half of America from voting.
You seem to be so busy attacking the American Right, that you have failed to notice that today's specific issue of unilateral US withdrawal from Afghanistan without proper planning, is entirely owned by a Democrat President.
Trump was a Democrat?
Biden has literally said, "the buck stops with me".
He's been in power for eight months, for goodness' sake.
Yep. He is taking direct ownership of this shit show much to his credit. My point was in response to "entirely owned by a Democrat President" which ignores that this is Trump's plan, claimed by both Trump and the GOP as their success, where they said Biden hadn't withdrawn fast enough in his 8 months.
The buck stops with Biden. But to claim no ownership by Trump is laughable. Trump negotiated this withdrawal with the Taliban - no way to row back on that catastrophic strategic fubar.
No way? If they wanted to they could have found a way.
Only by breaking an Agreement (Doha) signed by Trump and the Taliban in Feb 2020.
Obviously, if it had been Boris rather than Biden, he would have had no hesitation in breaking a signed agreement.
Yep, Boris and Frostie would have stitched up the Taliban good and proper.
Oh dear, you've lapsed into 'Boris'; thought you disapproved. Mind you, 'Frostie' is different - could make a cereal out of it.
4 hrs after the jab the sore arm kicks in, curse these dangerous vaccine side effects.
I had this for weeks, which extraordinarily was suddenly cured by falling into some stinging nettles. Subsequently, and on the advice of an eccentric gardener, I've started deliberately taking a few stings every now and then as a curative to feel better more generally - and amazingly, it works.
Try them in a soup maybe, instead of the whole body plunge?
4 hrs after the jab the sore arm kicks in, curse these dangerous vaccine side effects.
I had this for weeks, which extraordinarily was suddenly cured by falling into some stinging nettles. Subsequently, and on the advice of an eccentric gardener, I've started deliberately taking a few stings every now and then as a curative to feel better more generally - and amazingly, it works.
Try them in a soup maybe, instead of the whole body plunge?
Yes, I've tried all sorts of nettles since that extravaganza, too. Tea with nettle, nettle soup, etc. All delicious.
Mr. Oracle, it's been a long time since I read TA Dodge's excellent history (which I can heartily recommend be take care you don't accidentally buy an abridged version which may be unmarked as such) and cannot remember that detail.
As an aside, dock leaves cure the stinging of nettles.
This is the sum total of my herb lore.
We always knew you were no sage.
Never at any thyme?
Not since he cumin from the cold.
To be pedantic Cumin is a spice, not a herb. As it is a ground up seed. Appreciate that’s not probably the most pressing issue.
To be ultra-pedantic, Cuminum cyminum is botanically a herbaceous plant (related to Parsley). The substance used in cooking may or may not be defined as a herb (if you take that to mean leaves only).
My understanding is that, in culinary usage, spices are from seeds, bark, flowers and roots, and herbs from leaves, regardless of whether the plant is herbaceous or not.
Yes. Just to be extra confusing, herbal medicine includes non-leaf extracts from non-herbaceous plants (such as willow bark). (shrugs)
As an aside, dock leaves cure the stinging of nettles.
This is the sum total of my herb lore.
A few weeks ago I had to run through fifty metres of waist-high nettles (*). I had full-length trousers on, but still got nettle stings all up my legs. And on my privates.
Sadly there were no dock leaves to rub on my d*ck. Or perhaps fortunately, as a woman was feeding horses in an adjacent paddock.
Not my best run ever ...
(*) An apparently very-disused public footpath. Except the nettles were either side of, and in, an immaculate metal clappergate.
You should, perhaps, have asked to borrow the horse?
(As a preventative measure, to raise you above the danger zone, so to speak; I don't think borrowing the horse after exposure would have been useful. It's also possible, depending on the horse and your experience, that the cure would be worse than the disease!)
I love looking at horses. Sadly, I don't get on well with them. They're very cultured animals, and they don't appear to like me.
Besides, getting it through the clappergate might have been problematic. And I've never heard of showjumping-through-nettles before...
Buried in that gem of a @theresa_may speech, this line... Not from Macron. From the last British PM. "What does it say about us, what does it say about NATO if we are entirely dependent on a unilateral decision taken by the United States."
Exactly
Couldn’t that have been said that at anytime in the last 70 years? George Michael wrote a song about it in 2002!
I think in terms of it being so blatantly obvious, no. We’ve tended to go along in lock step - this is the first incident I can recall where we’ve been quite so let down by an action that seems to have been made in total isolation by the USA.
If the USA is unable to work multilaterally, then that signals the end of the golden period for USA dominance. It cannot act unilaterally without consequence any longer.
We have been insignificant lapdogs to the US for generations, militarily. Maybe one good thing to come out if this is that people will realise that now
"But the special relationship". America has been increasingly bonkers for a good while and is now deep into a cultural civil war with the lunatics desperate for Gilead.
One of the positive things being advocated by Brexiteers is the proposed CANZUK group. It will do sod all to replace trade lost locally, but strategically it could be an alternative to an America-led world where America first really means shitkickers first and try to stop half of America from voting.
You seem to be so busy attacking the American Right, that you have failed to notice that today's specific issue of unilateral US withdrawal from Afghanistan without proper planning, is entirely owned by a Democrat President.
Trump was a Democrat?
Biden has literally said, "the buck stops with me".
He's been in power for eight months, for goodness' sake.
Yep. He is taking direct ownership of this shit show much to his credit. My point was in response to "entirely owned by a Democrat President" which ignores that this is Trump's plan, claimed by both Trump and the GOP as their success, where they said Biden hadn't withdrawn fast enough in his 8 months.
The buck stops with Biden. But to claim no ownership by Trump is laughable. Trump negotiated this withdrawal with the Taliban - no way to row back on that catastrophic strategic fubar.
No way? If they wanted to they could have found a way.
Only by breaking an Agreement (Doha) signed by Trump and the Taliban in Feb 2020.
Obviously, if it had been Boris rather than Biden, he would have had no hesitation in breaking a signed agreement.
Yep, Boris and Frostie would have stitched up the Taliban good and proper.
Oh dear, you've lapsed into 'Boris'; thought you disapproved. Mind you, 'Frostie' is different - could make a cereal out of it.
Thousand apols. On my little phone so ... no, no excuse.
As an aside, dock leaves cure the stinging of nettles.
This is the sum total of my herb lore.
A few weeks ago I had to run through fifty metres of waist-high nettles (*). I had full-length trousers on, but still got nettle stings all up my legs. And on my privates.
Sadly there were no dock leaves to rub on my d*ck. Or perhaps fortunately, as a woman was feeding horses in an adjacent paddock.
Not my best run ever ...
(*) An apparently very-disused public footpath. Except the nettles were either side of, and in, an immaculate metal clappergate.
You should, perhaps, have asked to borrow the horse?
(As a preventative measure, to raise you above the danger zone, so to speak; I don't think borrowing the horse after exposure would have been useful. It's also possible, depending on the horse and your experience, that the cure would be worse than the disease!)
I love looking at horses. Sadly, I don't get on well with them. They're very cultured animals, and they don't appear to like me.
Besides, getting it through the clappergate might have been problematic. And I've never heard of showjumping-through-nettles before...
I had to google clappergate, which wasn't straightforward - it kept trying to tell me about Clappersgate. Eventually came to this 'stile guide' - is it the same as the clapper stile listed? Before that I was thinking maybe what we around these parts call a kissing gate. I've never seen a clapper stile; familiar with the others.
Brutal. Richard Drax reads a text from a "very distinguished" General about the government's "filleting" of the army. The defence review means that we could not sustain future operations. Cutting our army by 10,000 - some signal of our intent, some signal to our allies"
Don't think the Generals don't have an agenda. Think Len McCluskey with more medals.
Their behaviour is arguably what got us into trouble (in Afghan) in the first place.
As an aside, dock leaves cure the stinging of nettles.
This is the sum total of my herb lore.
A few weeks ago I had to run through fifty metres of waist-high nettles (*). I had full-length trousers on, but still got nettle stings all up my legs. And on my privates.
Sadly there were no dock leaves to rub on my d*ck. Or perhaps fortunately, as a woman was feeding horses in an adjacent paddock.
Not my best run ever ...
(*) An apparently very-disused public footpath. Except the nettles were either side of, and in, an immaculate metal clappergate.
You should, perhaps, have asked to borrow the horse?
(As a preventative measure, to raise you above the danger zone, so to speak; I don't think borrowing the horse after exposure would have been useful. It's also possible, depending on the horse and your experience, that the cure would be worse than the disease!)
I love looking at horses. Sadly, I don't get on well with them. They're very cultured animals, and they don't appear to like me.
Besides, getting it through the clappergate might have been problematic. And I've never heard of showjumping-through-nettles before...
Mr. Jessop, the nettles round here have rarely been so large due to the combination of lots of rain and lots of sun. The path is well-used but the nettles and so forth are still bigger than ever.
Some nettles round here tower over me. Maybe 8ft tall.
Brutal. Richard Drax reads a text from a "very distinguished" General about the government's "filleting" of the army. The defence review means that we could not sustain future operations. Cutting our army by 10,000 - some signal of our intent, some signal to our allies"
Somebody should remind Drax the government he supports has just spent half a trillion on COVID, and intends to spend a further 1.4 trillion on net zero.
The posturing from May, Ellwood, Mercer et al is just that. Britain is flat broke and they surely know it.
They are, after all, the people that underwrote the spending measures.
Even if one doesn't agree with Tugendhat, it was a powerful speech of the type that HoC sees so rarely in modern times.
It was a powerful speech.
But I'm afraid that his talk of 'strategic patience', and the comparison with South Korea was facile. We didn't much engage in any kind of nation building there - just left it to the post-war dictators, and lucked out with Park Chung-hee (who wouldn't be acceptable these days in may different ways).
You can't rely on public opinion being stable on war issues - quite understandably they respond to events, and less understandably they often forget that they previously thought differently.
Even if one doesn't agree with Tugendhat, it was a powerful speech of the type that HoC sees so rarely in modern times.
It was a powerful speech.
But I'm afraid that his talk of 'strategic patience', and the comparison with South Korea was facile. We didn't much engage in any kind of nation building there - just left it to the post-war dictators, and lucked out with Park Chung-hee (who wouldn't be acceptable these days in may different ways).
You can't rely on public opinion being stable on war issues - quite understandably they respond to events, and less understandably they often forget that they previously thought differently.
I agree on that, the key is to do the right thing in your view in terms of military deployment or not and try and bring the public with you.
As an aside, dock leaves cure the stinging of nettles.
This is the sum total of my herb lore.
A few weeks ago I had to run through fifty metres of waist-high nettles (*). I had full-length trousers on, but still got nettle stings all up my legs. And on my privates.
Sadly there were no dock leaves to rub on my d*ck. Or perhaps fortunately, as a woman was feeding horses in an adjacent paddock.
Not my best run ever ...
(*) An apparently very-disused public footpath. Except the nettles were either side of, and in, an immaculate metal clappergate.
You should, perhaps, have asked to borrow the horse?
(As a preventative measure, to raise you above the danger zone, so to speak; I don't think borrowing the horse after exposure would have been useful. It's also possible, depending on the horse and your experience, that the cure would be worse than the disease!)
I love looking at horses. Sadly, I don't get on well with them. They're very cultured animals, and they don't appear to like me.
Besides, getting it through the clappergate might have been problematic. And I've never heard of showjumping-through-nettles before...
I had to google clappergate, which wasn't straightforward - it kept trying to tell me about Clappersgate. Eventually came to this 'stile guide' - is it the same as the clapper stile listed? Before that I was thinking maybe what we around these parts call a kissing gate. I've never seen a clapper stile; familiar with the others.
I did try too - the one with the nettles can't be the same as this can they? These let horses through.
Buried in that gem of a @theresa_may speech, this line... Not from Macron. From the last British PM. "What does it say about us, what does it say about NATO if we are entirely dependent on a unilateral decision taken by the United States."
Exactly
Couldn’t that have been said that at anytime in the last 70 years? George Michael wrote a song about it in 2002!
I think in terms of it being so blatantly obvious, no. We’ve tended to go along in lock step - this is the first incident I can recall where we’ve been quite so let down by an action that seems to have been made in total isolation by the USA.
If the USA is unable to work multilaterally, then that signals the end of the golden period for USA dominance. It cannot act unilaterally without consequence any longer.
We have been insignificant lapdogs to the US for generations, militarily. Maybe one good thing to come out if this is that people will realise that now
"But the special relationship". America has been increasingly bonkers for a good while and is now deep into a cultural civil war with the lunatics desperate for Gilead.
One of the positive things being advocated by Brexiteers is the proposed CANZUK group. It will do sod all to replace trade lost locally, but strategically it could be an alternative to an America-led world where America first really means shitkickers first and try to stop half of America from voting.
You seem to be so busy attacking the American Right, that you have failed to notice that today's specific issue of unilateral US withdrawal from Afghanistan without proper planning, is entirely owned by a Democrat President.
Trump was a Democrat?
Biden has literally said, "the buck stops with me".
He's been in power for eight months, for goodness' sake.
Yep. He is taking direct ownership of this shit show much to his credit. My point was in response to "entirely owned by a Democrat President" which ignores that this is Trump's plan, claimed by both Trump and the GOP as their success, where they said Biden hadn't withdrawn fast enough in his 8 months.
The buck stops with Biden. But to claim no ownership by Trump is laughable. Trump negotiated this withdrawal with the Taliban - no way to row back on that catastrophic strategic fubar.
No way? If they wanted to they could have found a way.
Only by breaking an Agreement (Doha) signed by Trump and the Taliban in Feb 2020.
Obviously, if it had been Boris rather than Biden, he would have had no hesitation in breaking a signed agreement.
The point, though, is that since the signing of the agreement, the US had taken no military casualties. Had they abrogated it, that would almost undoubtedly have changed, and US public opinion would be even more negative than it is now.
I'm not defending Biden's handling of this, but the idea that the US might simply have continued the occupation is fanciful. And that it might have done so without negative consequences, absurd.
As an aside, dock leaves cure the stinging of nettles.
This is the sum total of my herb lore.
A few weeks ago I had to run through fifty metres of waist-high nettles (*). I had full-length trousers on, but still got nettle stings all up my legs. And on my privates.
Sadly there were no dock leaves to rub on my d*ck. Or perhaps fortunately, as a woman was feeding horses in an adjacent paddock.
Not my best run ever ...
(*) An apparently very-disused public footpath. Except the nettles were either side of, and in, an immaculate metal clappergate.
You should, perhaps, have asked to borrow the horse?
(As a preventative measure, to raise you above the danger zone, so to speak; I don't think borrowing the horse after exposure would have been useful. It's also possible, depending on the horse and your experience, that the cure would be worse than the disease!)
I love looking at horses. Sadly, I don't get on well with them. They're very cultured animals, and they don't appear to like me.
Besides, getting it through the clappergate might have been problematic. And I've never heard of showjumping-through-nettles before...
I had to google clappergate, which wasn't straightforward - it kept trying to tell me about Clappersgate. Eventually came to this 'stile guide' - is it the same as the clapper stile listed? Before that I was thinking maybe what we around these parts call a kissing gate. I've never seen a clapper stile; familiar with the others.
In our family, we've always referred to them as either clappergates (because the gate 'claps' either side of the opening), or kissing-gates, fairly interchangeably.
I've seen a couple of the 'clapper stiles' shown on your page. Given the amount of miles I've walked, they must be fairly rare. Can't remember where I've seen them though. Perhaps the Cotswolds?
Another interesting point is the way footpath quality varies according to council. Here in Cambridgeshire, the footpaths and bridleways *tend* to be fairly well looked after. Go a few metres into Bedfordshire, and they can be terrible. Sometimes a path that crosses the border between the two can go from well-kept to almost impassable, with signs missing and stiles broken or impassable. I wonder if this is down to the council's footpath officers being more proactive in ensuring they are clear. Or is it local rambling groups?
Although I've just checked the map, and this footpath was actually about 200 metres inside Cambridgeshire, paralleling the border. But as I said, the gate was in good condition.
As an aside, dock leaves cure the stinging of nettles.
This is the sum total of my herb lore.
We always knew you were no sage.
Never at any thyme?
Not since he cumin from the cold.
To be pedantic Cumin is a spice, not a herb. As it is a ground up seed. Appreciate that’s not probably the most pressing issue.
To be ultra-pedantic, Cuminum cyminum is botanically a herbaceous plant (related to Parsley). The substance used in cooking may or may not be defined as a herb (if you take that to mean leaves only).
My understanding is that, in culinary usage, spices are from seeds, fruits, bark, flowers and roots, and herbs from leaves, regardless of whether the plant is herbaceous or not.
The first to comment didn't cover himself in glory with this one!
"Such a blatantly obvious policy stance to be adopted by a party with absolutely zero chance of forming the next Government that it’s just surprising that Clegg didn’t decide on this one earlier.
by Peter from Putney September 11th, 2009 at 3:15 am"
As an aside, dock leaves cure the stinging of nettles.
This is the sum total of my herb lore.
A few weeks ago I had to run through fifty metres of waist-high nettles (*). I had full-length trousers on, but still got nettle stings all up my legs. And on my privates.
Sadly there were no dock leaves to rub on my d*ck. Or perhaps fortunately, as a woman was feeding horses in an adjacent paddock.
Not my best run ever ...
(*) An apparently very-disused public footpath. Except the nettles were either side of, and in, an immaculate metal clappergate.
You should, perhaps, have asked to borrow the horse?
(As a preventative measure, to raise you above the danger zone, so to speak; I don't think borrowing the horse after exposure would have been useful. It's also possible, depending on the horse and your experience, that the cure would be worse than the disease!)
I love looking at horses. Sadly, I don't get on well with them. They're very cultured animals, and they don't appear to like me.
Besides, getting it through the clappergate might have been problematic. And I've never heard of showjumping-through-nettles before...
I had to google clappergate, which wasn't straightforward - it kept trying to tell me about Clappersgate. Eventually came to this 'stile guide' - is it the same as the clapper stile listed? Before that I was thinking maybe what we around these parts call a kissing gate. I've never seen a clapper stile; familiar with the others.
I did try too - the one with the nettles can't be the same as this can they? These let horses through.
And that's interesting: I got 'clapper gates' for the metal round gates from my dad. Who, as a youth, lived quite near that part of the Trent in Lincolnshire.
Mr. Jessop, the nettles round here have rarely been so large due to the combination of lots of rain and lots of sun. The path is well-used but the nettles and so forth are still bigger than ever.
Some nettles round here tower over me. Maybe 8ft tall.
They are a good indicator of excess phosphates and nitrates in the soil and (as you might expect) have become more prevalent over the past 50 years.
I think the correct solution to the footpath problem was to feed the nettles to the horse...
Even if one doesn't agree with Tugendhat, it was a powerful speech of the type that HoC sees so rarely in modern times.
It was a powerful speech.
But I'm afraid that his talk of 'strategic patience', and the comparison with South Korea was facile. We didn't much engage in any kind of nation building there - just left it to the post-war dictators, and lucked out with Park Chung-hee (who wouldn't be acceptable these days in may different ways).
You can't rely on public opinion being stable on war issues - quite understandably they respond to events, and less understandably they often forget that they previously thought differently.
In the poll that formed the basis of the last thread header, 9% thought Sir Keir had handled the Afghan crisis well, and 26% thought badly...
How can ANYONE have had an opinion on how he had done? He hadn't done, and cannot have done, anything!
That Afghan Army experience in the First Anglo-Afghan War......The diary of Lady Sale, 1842:
"As the night fell and with it, the temperature, dropped well below freezing. The retreating force then learned that they lost all of their supplies of food and their baggage. On the second day all of the men of the Royal Afghan Army's 6th regiment deserted, heading back to Kabul, marking the end of the first attempt to give Afghanistan a national army...."
Even if one doesn't agree with Tugendhat, it was a powerful speech of the type that HoC sees so rarely in modern times.
It was a powerful speech.
But I'm afraid that his talk of 'strategic patience', and the comparison with South Korea was facile. We didn't much engage in any kind of nation building there - just left it to the post-war dictators, and lucked out with Park Chung-hee (who wouldn't be acceptable these days in may different ways).
You can't rely on public opinion being stable on war issues - quite understandably they respond to events, and less understandably they often forget that they previously thought differently.
Mr. Jessop, the nettles round here have rarely been so large due to the combination of lots of rain and lots of sun. The path is well-used but the nettles and so forth are still bigger than ever.
Some nettles round here tower over me. Maybe 8ft tall.
They are a good indicator of excess phosphates and nitrates in the soil and (as you might expect) have become more prevalent over the past 50 years.
I think the correct solution to the footpath problem was to feed the nettles to the horse...
Or take them to the Bottle Inn, Dorset. Home of the World Nettle-Eating Championship.
The first to comment didn't cover himself in glory with this one!
"Such a blatantly obvious policy stance to be adopted by a party with absolutely zero chance of forming the next Government that it’s just surprising that Clegg didn’t decide on this one earlier.
by Peter from Putney September 11th, 2009 at 3:15 am"
Yet Scott and Tim (persona non-grata, formerly of this parish) were blinkin' soothsayers. Ed Miliband for Labour leader. You saw it here first!
From the report of the Select Committee on International Relations and Defence, Jan 2021... https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld5801/ldselect/ldintrel/208/20812.htm#_idTextAnchor251 117.We heard that the ongoing presence of US and NATO troops in Afghanistan is essential to the Afghan government’s military strength and negotiating position. Premature withdrawal by the US, likely to be matched by NATO partners, runs contrary to the UK’s objective of securing a durable negotiated settlement. (Paragraph 545)
118.The UK should emphasise to the US and its NATO Allies the importance of their ongoing presence in Afghanistan until a peace deal is reached (Paragraph 546)
119.The ongoing presence of UK troops in Afghanistan depends on the deployment decisions of the US. We were disappointed by the lack of analysis of the implications of the planned US withdrawal from Afghanistan provided by ministers in their evidence. We ask the Government to provide to us its assessment of the US’s policy. (Paragraph 547)
120.The evidence we received demonstrated the challenges facing the Government on future security assistance to Afghanistan:
A government with Taliban representation might not accept such assistance, and the UK and NATO Allies would need to consider what sort of assistance to provide to such a regime. If a peace deal was reached with the Taliban and the UK and international partners withdrew funding for the Afghan National Security Forces, this would critically undermine the viability of the Afghan forces. The UK and non-US NATO Allies are unlikely to remain in Afghanistan if the US withdraws its troops. The US presence is the largest in NATO; the end of its non-NATO mission is likely to result in the security situation deteriorating. We invite the Government to provide us with its assessment of these challenges. (Paragraph 552)...
As the first Covid lockdown hit, workers in Britain opted to turn their sheds into offices – “shoffices” – and bars, but the trend has led to a surge in outbuilding fires.
Data from freedom of information requests by the insurer Zurich found that blazes in sheds, garages and conservatories rose by 16% in 2020 compared with the previous year.
Whoever came up with the word "Shoffices" should be first against the wall.
How did the West get sucked into "nation building" in Afghanistan in the first place? We were suppose to be there only to dismantle the terrorism threat in 2001.
How did the West get sucked into "nation building" in Afghanistan in the first place? We were suppose to be there only to dismantle the terrorism threat in 2001.
Doesn't appear to be that much different from the colonialism that everyone is so ashamed of, to me.
Ed Davey’s LibDems have been going in hard on Afghanistan, both calling for a greater number of refugees to be allowed into the UK and strongly condemning the US & UK military withdrawal, saying “our leaders should all hang their heads in shame.”
Back at the LibDems’ 2009 conference, their future leader was instead calling for “tea with the Taliban”, and for Taliban fighters to be offered “a decent daily wage” to get them to defect. Now he criticises the withdrawal of troops, yet ten years ago Davey told the LibDem faithful:
“You don’t win wars by fighting in Afghanistan: witness the Soviets, witness the three Anglo-Afghan wars fought by the British Empire, witness Alexander the Great.”
LOL!
The Lib-Dems: Never knowingly having fewer than two positions at the same time on any subject since 1989!
From the report of the Select Committee on International Relations and Defence, Jan 2021... https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld5801/ldselect/ldintrel/208/20812.htm#_idTextAnchor251 117.We heard that the ongoing presence of US and NATO troops in Afghanistan is essential to the Afghan government’s military strength and negotiating position. Premature withdrawal by the US, likely to be matched by NATO partners, runs contrary to the UK’s objective of securing a durable negotiated settlement. (Paragraph 545)
118.The UK should emphasise to the US and its NATO Allies the importance of their ongoing presence in Afghanistan until a peace deal is reached (Paragraph 546)
119.The ongoing presence of UK troops in Afghanistan depends on the deployment decisions of the US. We were disappointed by the lack of analysis of the implications of the planned US withdrawal from Afghanistan provided by ministers in their evidence. We ask the Government to provide to us its assessment of the US’s policy. (Paragraph 547)
120.The evidence we received demonstrated the challenges facing the Government on future security assistance to Afghanistan:
A government with Taliban representation might not accept such assistance, and the UK and NATO Allies would need to consider what sort of assistance to provide to such a regime. If a peace deal was reached with the Taliban and the UK and international partners withdrew funding for the Afghan National Security Forces, this would critically undermine the viability of the Afghan forces. The UK and non-US NATO Allies are unlikely to remain in Afghanistan if the US withdraws its troops. The US presence is the largest in NATO; the end of its non-NATO mission is likely to result in the security situation deteriorating. We invite the Government to provide us with its assessment of these challenges. (Paragraph 552)...
Note that is from the House of Lords Select Committee.
AFAICS, the Commons Defence, and Foreign Affairs Select Committees didn't overly concern themselves with the matter.
Even if one doesn't agree with Tugendhat, it was a powerful speech of the type that HoC sees so rarely in modern times.
It was a powerful speech.
But I'm afraid that his talk of 'strategic patience', and the comparison with South Korea was facile. We didn't much engage in any kind of nation building there - just left it to the post-war dictators, and lucked out with Park Chung-hee (who wouldn't be acceptable these days in may different ways).
You can't rely on public opinion being stable on war issues - quite understandably they respond to events, and less understandably they often forget that they previously thought differently.
In the poll that formed the basis of the last thread header, 9% thought Sir Keir had handled the Afghan crisis well, and 26% thought badly...
How can ANYONE have had an opinion on how he had done? He hadn't done, and cannot have done, anything!
Even if one doesn't agree with Tugendhat, it was a powerful speech of the type that HoC sees so rarely in modern times.
It was a powerful speech.
But I'm afraid that his talk of 'strategic patience', and the comparison with South Korea was facile. We didn't much engage in any kind of nation building there - just left it to the post-war dictators, and lucked out with Park Chung-hee (who wouldn't be acceptable these days in may different ways).
You can't rely on public opinion being stable on war issues - quite understandably they respond to events, and less understandably they often forget that they previously thought differently.
In the poll that formed the basis of the last thread header, 9% thought Sir Keir had handled the Afghan crisis well, and 26% thought badly...
How can ANYONE have had an opinion on how he had done? He hadn't done, and cannot have done, anything!
That 26% is people like you - SDR types.
Obviously not, as I just said it was impossible to have an opinion on the matter.
How did the West get sucked into "nation building" in Afghanistan in the first place? We were suppose to be there only to dismantle the terrorism threat in 2001.
Rumsfeld cocked the job up, and everything followed from that.
He, you will recall, did it on the cheap, relying on the locals backed up by US air power...
As the first Covid lockdown hit, workers in Britain opted to turn their sheds into offices – “shoffices” – and bars, but the trend has led to a surge in outbuilding fires.
Data from freedom of information requests by the insurer Zurich found that blazes in sheds, garages and conservatories rose by 16% in 2020 compared with the previous year.
Whoever came up with the word "Shoffices" should be first against the wall.
Reminds me of the sauna Gary and Tony made from a shed in Men Bahaving Badly.....'its more of a shedna, Debs...'
Even if one doesn't agree with Tugendhat, it was a powerful speech of the type that HoC sees so rarely in modern times.
It was a powerful speech.
But I'm afraid that his talk of 'strategic patience', and the comparison with South Korea was facile. We didn't much engage in any kind of nation building there - just left it to the post-war dictators, and lucked out with Park Chung-hee (who wouldn't be acceptable these days in may different ways).
You can't rely on public opinion being stable on war issues - quite understandably they respond to events, and less understandably they often forget that they previously thought differently.
In the poll that formed the basis of the last thread header, 9% thought Sir Keir had handled the Afghan crisis well, and 26% thought badly...
How can ANYONE have had an opinion on how he had done? He hadn't done, and cannot have done, anything!
That 26% is people like you - SDR types.
Obviously not, as I just said it was impossible to have an opinion on the matter.
Yes, fair enough, but that's because you're on here and there's standards. If they'd asked you in a survey, I bet you'd have gone for "badly".
BREAKING: Former Afghan President fled with $169MILLION in his helicopter and has been given asylum in Dubai https://trib.al/PM1rH1F
He's lucky Dubai is a charitable nation, I'd be tempted to send him back to the hand choppers.
Theft of $169m might involve more for the chop than just the hands.
Something else - on various Twitter messages etc there are reports that Afghan soldiers were told to stand down by their senior commanders, because there was a peace deal.
And apparently, Afghan Vice President Saleh has stepped up, put together a force (in conjunction with Ahmad Massoud) and retaken the Charikar area from Taliban.
How did the West get sucked into "nation building" in Afghanistan in the first place? We were suppose to be there only to dismantle the terrorism threat in 2001.
Rumsfeld cocked the job up, and everything followed from that.
He, you will recall, did it on the cheap, relying on the locals backed up by US air power...
From the report of the Select Committee on International Relations and Defence, Jan 2021... https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld5801/ldselect/ldintrel/208/20812.htm#_idTextAnchor251 117.We heard that the ongoing presence of US and NATO troops in Afghanistan is essential to the Afghan government’s military strength and negotiating position. Premature withdrawal by the US, likely to be matched by NATO partners, runs contrary to the UK’s objective of securing a durable negotiated settlement. (Paragraph 545)
118.The UK should emphasise to the US and its NATO Allies the importance of their ongoing presence in Afghanistan until a peace deal is reached (Paragraph 546)
119.The ongoing presence of UK troops in Afghanistan depends on the deployment decisions of the US. We were disappointed by the lack of analysis of the implications of the planned US withdrawal from Afghanistan provided by ministers in their evidence. We ask the Government to provide to us its assessment of the US’s policy. (Paragraph 547)
120.The evidence we received demonstrated the challenges facing the Government on future security assistance to Afghanistan:
A government with Taliban representation might not accept such assistance, and the UK and NATO Allies would need to consider what sort of assistance to provide to such a regime. If a peace deal was reached with the Taliban and the UK and international partners withdrew funding for the Afghan National Security Forces, this would critically undermine the viability of the Afghan forces. The UK and non-US NATO Allies are unlikely to remain in Afghanistan if the US withdraws its troops. The US presence is the largest in NATO; the end of its non-NATO mission is likely to result in the security situation deteriorating. We invite the Government to provide us with its assessment of these challenges. (Paragraph 552)...
Two initial conclusions from this...
1) The House of Lords might be a very useful advisory institution... if anyone took any notice of it. 2) It's utter shite to claim that no one saw this coming.
Even if one doesn't agree with Tugendhat, it was a powerful speech of the type that HoC sees so rarely in modern times.
It was a powerful speech.
But I'm afraid that his talk of 'strategic patience', and the comparison with South Korea was facile. We didn't much engage in any kind of nation building there - just left it to the post-war dictators, and lucked out with Park Chung-hee (who wouldn't be acceptable these days in may different ways).
You can't rely on public opinion being stable on war issues - quite understandably they respond to events, and less understandably they often forget that they previously thought differently.
In the poll that formed the basis of the last thread header, 9% thought Sir Keir had handled the Afghan crisis well, and 26% thought badly...
How can ANYONE have had an opinion on how he had done? He hadn't done, and cannot have done, anything!
That 26% is people like you - SDR types.
Obviously not, as I just said it was impossible to have an opinion on the matter.
Yes, fair enough, but that's because you're on here and there's standards. If they'd asked you in a survey, I bet you'd have gone for "badly".
Ah. I am slightly hurt you think that, but I wouldn't have anyway
That Afghan Army experience in the First Anglo-Afghan War......The diary of Lady Sale, 1842:
"As the night fell and with it, the temperature, dropped well below freezing. The retreating force then learned that they lost all of their supplies of food and their baggage. On the second day all of the men of the Royal Afghan Army's 6th regiment deserted, heading back to Kabul, marking the end of the first attempt to give Afghanistan a national army...."
The national army also offered little resistance in 1878, 1979 and 2001. There was much gloating in 2001 over the silly historians who warned against invasion. Maybe one day westerners will learn that the ability of Afghans to resist interventions isn't measured by the resilience of their national army, but I doubt it.
Maybe one day westerners will learn that the ability of Afghans to resist interventions isn't measured by the resilience of their national army, but I doubt it.
And that is because there really is no such thing as the nation of Afghanistan for which to have a national army. It's hard to have an effective national army without a nation.
BREAKING: Former Afghan President fled with $169MILLION in his helicopter and has been given asylum in Dubai https://trib.al/PM1rH1F
He's lucky Dubai is a charitable nation, I'd be tempted to send him back to the hand choppers.
Theft of $169m might involve more for the chop than just the hands.
Something else - on various Twitter messages etc there are reports that Afghan soldiers were told to stand down by their senior commanders, because there was a peace deal.
And apparently, Afghan Vice President Saleh has stepped up, put together a force (in conjunction with Ahmad Massoud) and retaken the Charikar area from Taliban.
The Tajiks of the Panshjr valley will be fighting the Pashtun Taliban for some time I think. We're best staying out of it*
Comments
Narrator: he was not surprised.
Plus from Gladstone to Ashdown the Liberals have had a long history of backing moral interventions abroad for human rights reasons
Davey's current target vote tends be ex Tory Remainers in the Home Counties
Some Tory Remainers went LD in 2017 and 2019, it is pretty obvious.
There are a few diehard Liberals still but the anti war left who backed Kennedy are almost all voting Labour or Green or SNP now
He isn't calling for us to keep fighting, he is criticising the chaotic unplanned nature of the withdrawal. No wonder that Guido is having a pop though, have to do *something* to try and defend a government which is taking an absolute kicking from its own MPs.
Labour's Cammy Day and the SNP's Adam McVey may not be the coalition leaders after next year's election with the chance of a deal with the Greens instead.
The Greens up at the City Chambers have kept an arm’s length distance between themselves and the SNP/Labour coalition but, when push has come to shove, have lent their support when it mattered.
… the Conservatives are destined to once more play a bit part in the next council term.
https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/edinburgh-council-elections-could-see-snp-follow-nicola-sturgeon-and-form-new-pact-with-greens-steve-cardownie-3349037
He was 19 at the time. Lived to be 89.
Isn't Mr Cardownie ex Labour, ex SNP, now Alba?
And up on the hill, the Castle martyrs confirmed as anti-lockdowners.
https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/crime/edinburgh-castle-police-officer-injured-and-man-arrested-as-anti-lockdown-magna-carta-protesters-seize-castle-3350212
BBC website were remarkably reluctant to suggest this this morning and are still being very coy. Can't think why.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-58254322
Alexander the Great won his wars.
Claiming otherwise is completely contrary to the historical facts.
But then, Afghanistan didn't exist when he was there and imposing modern day geographical boundaries on the ancient world is silly.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2021/08/16/sting-duped-buying-italian-wine-estate/
(As a preventative measure, to raise you above the danger zone, so to speak; I don't think borrowing the horse after exposure would have been useful. It's also possible, depending on the horse and your experience, that the cure would be worse than the disease!)
- Sir Ed Davey, 2009.
Its postscript feels like essential reading at the moment. Certainly it resonates with the bleak events since it was written, but it also provides some hope for the future, even under Taliban control. For example:
"The great powers have a stake in making Afghanistan more governable, but the only people who can achieve this happy result are Afghans, because it depends on the resolution of contradictions within Afghanistan. Once the foreign power withdraws in disgust... some new permutation of the Afghan urban, or rural, ruling classes comes back to power, its prestige renewed by the role it has supposedly played in driving out foreigners. The pendulum then swings back from fragmentation towards centralisation....
"Every Afghan government must renew this project. No Afghan government can simply let go, and watch the society come apart, because the foreigners are out there always. If it isn't the United States, it will be China. If not China, Iran. If not Iran, then India or Russia, or some combination of Arab powers, or of those central Asian republics....
"As soon as new rulers secure credibility among Afghans, they do two things. One, they move toward a cautious accommodation with some chosen outside force, while publically asserting non-alignment in world politics. And two, they start trying to push the Afghan customs and values into alignment with those of the world at large....
"This will happen again, whether elections bring another DC approved modernist to the presidency, or the Taliban overwhelm the cities and take power again. It will happen because, confoundingly enough, the constant threat of great power interventions make the centralising power in Kabul outward looking and oriented toward membership in the modern world. If the Taliban succeed in taking over, you can be sure they will develop this same outward looking orientation and attraction to some version of modernity very shortly."
This isn't wishful thinking - Ansary despises the Taliban as much as the rest of us - but based on analysis of history. Of course he could be wrong, but so far his judgment has been more sound than that of most experts in Afghanistan.
But did he call The Police?
I can’t believe no one has made a joke about Nick Clegg and withdrawal method, and why he managed not to get the 30women pregnant
by The Screaming Eagles September 11th, 2009 at 10:28 am
(sorry, I'll stop now, unless I think of something even worse)
Besides, getting it through the clappergate might have been problematic. And I've never heard of showjumping-through-nettles before...
JOHNSON.
Their behaviour is arguably what got us into trouble (in Afghan) in the first place.
The posturing from May, Ellwood, Mercer et al is just that. Britain is flat broke and they surely know it.
They are, after all, the people that underwrote the spending measures.
But it's better than the year there was a horde of greenfly. That was physically unpleasant.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9632905/How-Nick-Clegg-began-Facebook-role-telling-EU-good-liberal-Silicon-Valley.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clapper_gates
I'm not defending Biden's handling of this, but the idea that the US might simply have continued the occupation is fanciful. And that it might have done so without negative consequences, absurd.
https://mcveighparker.com/gates/row-gates/kissing-gates/woodstock-kissing-gate#212=
In our family, we've always referred to them as either clappergates (because the gate 'claps' either side of the opening), or kissing-gates, fairly interchangeably.
I've seen a couple of the 'clapper stiles' shown on your page. Given the amount of miles I've walked, they must be fairly rare. Can't remember where I've seen them though. Perhaps the Cotswolds?
Another interesting point is the way footpath quality varies according to council. Here in Cambridgeshire, the footpaths and bridleways *tend* to be fairly well looked after. Go a few metres into Bedfordshire, and they can be terrible. Sometimes a path that crosses the border between the two can go from well-kept to almost impassable, with signs missing and stiles broken or impassable. I wonder if this is down to the council's footpath officers being more proactive in ensuring they are clear. Or is it local rambling groups?
Although I've just checked the map, and this footpath was actually about 200 metres inside Cambridgeshire, paralleling the border. But as I said, the gate was in good condition.
"Such a blatantly obvious policy stance to be adopted by a party with absolutely zero chance of forming the next Government that it’s just surprising that Clegg didn’t decide on this one earlier.
by Peter from Putney September 11th, 2009 at 3:15 am"
And that's interesting: I got 'clapper gates' for the metal round gates from my dad. Who, as a youth, lived quite near that part of the Trent in Lincolnshire.
I think the correct solution to the footpath problem was to feed the nettles to the horse...
How can ANYONE have had an opinion on how he had done? He hadn't done, and cannot have done, anything!
"As the night fell and with it, the temperature, dropped well below freezing. The retreating force then learned that they lost all of their supplies of food and their baggage. On the second day all of the men of the Royal Afghan Army's 6th regiment deserted, heading back to Kabul, marking the end of the first attempt to give Afghanistan a national army...."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bottle_Inn
(I've camped there, after getting (ahem) lost walking the Wessex Ridgeway.)
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld5801/ldselect/ldintrel/208/20812.htm#_idTextAnchor251
117.We heard that the ongoing presence of US and NATO troops in Afghanistan is essential to the Afghan government’s military strength and negotiating position. Premature withdrawal by the US, likely to be matched by NATO partners, runs contrary to the UK’s objective of securing a durable negotiated settlement. (Paragraph 545)
118.The UK should emphasise to the US and its NATO Allies the importance of their ongoing presence in Afghanistan until a peace deal is reached (Paragraph 546)
119.The ongoing presence of UK troops in Afghanistan depends on the deployment decisions of the US. We were disappointed by the lack of analysis of the implications of the planned US withdrawal from Afghanistan provided by ministers in their evidence. We ask the Government to provide to us its assessment of the US’s policy. (Paragraph 547)
120.The evidence we received demonstrated the challenges facing the Government on future security assistance to Afghanistan:
A government with Taliban representation might not accept such assistance, and the UK and NATO Allies would need to consider what sort of assistance to provide to such a regime.
If a peace deal was reached with the Taliban and the UK and international partners withdrew funding for the Afghan National Security Forces, this would critically undermine the viability of the Afghan forces.
The UK and non-US NATO Allies are unlikely to remain in Afghanistan if the US withdraws its troops. The US presence is the largest in NATO; the end of its non-NATO mission is likely to result in the security situation deteriorating.
We invite the Government to provide us with its assessment of these challenges. (Paragraph 552)...
He's lucky Dubai is a charitable nation, I'd be tempted to send him back to the hand choppers.
The Lib-Dems: Never knowingly having fewer than two positions at the same time on any subject since 1989!
AFAICS, the Commons Defence, and Foreign Affairs Select Committees didn't overly concern themselves with the matter.
He, you will recall, did it on the cheap, relying on the locals backed up by US air power...
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1427995454126571532?s=19
It achieves membrane fusion far more efficiently and faster
https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1427993987009318927
And apparently, Afghan Vice President Saleh has stepped up, put together a force (in conjunction with Ahmad Massoud) and retaken the Charikar area from Taliban.
1) The House of Lords might be a very useful advisory institution... if anyone took any notice of it.
2) It's utter shite to claim that no one saw this coming.
*Doubtless the CIA will be in there somewhere...