Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Our first taste of a packed House of Commons for 17 months – politicalbetting.com

13567

Comments

  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    tlg86 said:

    How times change...

    https://order-order.com/2021/08/18/ed-davey-moves-on-from-tea-with-the-taliban-call/

    Ed Davey’s LibDems have been going in hard on Afghanistan, both calling for a greater number of refugees to be allowed into the UK and strongly condemning the US & UK military withdrawal, saying “our leaders should all hang their heads in shame.”

    Back at the LibDems’ 2009 conference, their future leader was instead calling for “tea with the Taliban”, and for Taliban fighters to be offered “a decent daily wage” to get them to defect. Now he criticises the withdrawal of troops, yet ten years ago Davey told the LibDem faithful:

    “You don’t win wars by fighting in Afghanistan: witness the Soviets, witness the three Anglo-Afghan wars fought by the British Empire, witness Alexander the Great.”
    His final statement was and will always be entirely correct.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,973
    edited August 2021
    HYUFD said:

    Mainly because of the complete change of the LD voter coalition.

    Most of the current LD vote is made up of centrist Remainers who voted for Blair and/or Cameron.

    Most of the pre 2010 LD vote was made up of leftwing anti Iraq war voters who defected to Labour when Ed Miliband and Corbyn took over and are still voting Labour or even Green post Starmer
    I'm surprised that you think pandering to voters is more important than consistency of principle.

    Narrator: he was not surprised.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,278
    edited August 2021

    I'm surprised that you think pandering to voters is more important than consistency of principle.

    Narrator: he was not surprised.
    Consistency of principle is rather pointless for most party leaders if you lose your current voting block.

    Plus from Gladstone to Ashdown the Liberals have had a long history of backing moral interventions abroad for human rights reasons
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,911

    One might hope that as he was, like his predecessor, a draft dodger, he might cringe at the realisation he outrageously called people much braver than him cowards.
    I don’t think he will give a stuff about any of it. It’s all. America first and US domestic consumption.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,613
    HYUFD said:

    Consistency of principle is rather pointless for most party leaders if you lose your current voting block
    But surely if you don't bother with consistency of principle you end up losing past/current voters anyway?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,051
    HYUFD said:

    Mainly because of the complete change of the LD voter coalition.

    Most of the current LD vote is made up of centrist Remainers many of whom voted for Blair and/or Cameron.

    Most of the pre 2010 LD vote was made up of leftwing anti Iraq war voters who defected back to Labour when Ed Miliband and Corbyn took over and are still voting Labour or even Green post Starmer
    Are you sure? Most of the LDs I know were LDs pre 2010 and still are. They've lost some along the way, sure, and they had that membership surge, but I'd be curious if they really have changed so much.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,278
    edited August 2021
    Carnyx said:

    But surely if you don't bother with consistency of principle you end up losing past/current voters anyway?
    The coalition lost LD leftwing pacifist voters to Labour and the SNP, they are not coming back.

    Davey's current target vote tends be ex Tory Remainers in the Home Counties
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,911
    IanB2 said:

    Not since he cumin from the cold.
    To be pedantic Cumin is a spice, not a herb. As it is a ground up seed. Appreciate that’s not probably the most pressing issue.
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    Commentators seem to be assuming that the Taliban have achieved and can maintain high degree of control. I wonder. Must be a good chance of internal conflict developing.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,278
    kle4 said:

    Are you sure? Most of the LDs I know were LDs pre 2010 and still are. They've lost some along the way, sure, and they had that membership surge, but I'd be curious if they really have changed so much.
    LDs got about 23% in 2005 and 2010, they are now on 10% at best.

    Some Tory Remainers went LD in 2017 and 2019, it is pretty obvious.

    There are a few diehard Liberals still but the anti war left who backed Kennedy are almost all voting Labour or Green or SNP now
  • Taz said:

    To be pedantic Cumin is a spice, not a herb. As it is a ground up seed. Appreciate that’s not probably the most pressing issue.
    KEEP CALM and CORIANDER
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,976

    .

    Which Asda was that? Riyadh.
    DBACAYLHADO.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,296

    My local Asda was 1.29 or was last week
    That's a hot favourite. Might lay it. What's the event?
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,911

    KEEP CALM and CORIANDER
    That’s very good 👍
  • tlg86 said:

    How times change...

    https://order-order.com/2021/08/18/ed-davey-moves-on-from-tea-with-the-taliban-call/

    Ed Davey’s LibDems have been going in hard on Afghanistan, both calling for a greater number of refugees to be allowed into the UK and strongly condemning the US & UK military withdrawal, saying “our leaders should all hang their heads in shame.”

    Back at the LibDems’ 2009 conference, their future leader was instead calling for “tea with the Taliban”, and for Taliban fighters to be offered “a decent daily wage” to get them to defect. Now he criticises the withdrawal of troops, yet ten years ago Davey told the LibDem faithful:

    “You don’t win wars by fighting in Afghanistan: witness the Soviets, witness the three Anglo-Afghan wars fought by the British Empire, witness Alexander the Great.”
    And? Trying to encourage the evolution of Afghan society away from Jihad was one of the strategies pursued back in 2009.

    He isn't calling for us to keep fighting, he is criticising the chaotic unplanned nature of the withdrawal. No wonder that Guido is having a pop though, have to do *something* to try and defend a government which is taking an absolute kicking from its own MPs.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Edinburgh Council elections could see SNP follow Nicola Sturgeon and form new pact with Greens

    Labour's Cammy Day and the SNP's Adam McVey may not be the coalition leaders after next year's election with the chance of a deal with the Greens instead.

    The Greens up at the City Chambers have kept an arm’s length distance between themselves and the SNP/Labour coalition but, when push has come to shove, have lent their support when it mattered.

    … the Conservatives are destined to once more play a bit part in the next council term.

    https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/edinburgh-council-elections-could-see-snp-follow-nicola-sturgeon-and-form-new-pact-with-greens-steve-cardownie-3349037
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,301
    isam said:
    There are some interesting comments below the line in the archive of that page.

  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,852
    edited August 2021
    Taz said:

    To be pedantic Cumin is a spice, not a herb. As it is a ground up seed. Appreciate that’s not probably the most pressing issue.
    To be ultra-pedantic, Cuminum cyminum is botanically a herbaceous plant (related to Parsley). The substance used in cooking may or may not be defined as a herb (if you take that to mean leaves only).
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    HYUFD said:

    The coalition lost LD leftwing pacifist voters to Labour and the SNP, they are not coming back.

    Davey's current target vote tends be ex Tory Remainers in the Home Counties
    And don’t the SLDs know it! The positioning is all wrong for them. They need a new Charlie Kennedy. Even a new Jim Wallace would do.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,278

    And don’t the SLDs know it! The positioning is all wrong for them. They need a new Charlie Kennedy. Even a new Jim Wallace would do.
    Though even Kennedy lost his seat to the SNP in 2015
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,296

    My father was on the reserve (King's Shropshire Light Infantry) and received papers (or a letter saying he might be called up) but thankfully was not
    My grandad was rejected for flat feet. Most of those in his village who were accepted went to the Somme. "Pop over to France. Take a shufty. Don't come back."

    He was 19 at the time. Lived to be 89.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    HYUFD said:

    Though even Kennedy lost his seat to the SNP in 2015
    But who didn’t? The amazing thing is that the Liberals, then LDs, held that area for so long, against all the odds.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,303
    Mr. Jessop, the nettles round here have rarely been so large due to the combination of lots of rain and lots of sun. The path is well-used but the nettles and so forth are still bigger than ever.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    edited August 2021

    To be ultra-pedantic, Cuminum cyminum is botanically a herbaceous plant (related to Parsley). The substance used in cooking may or may not be defined as a herb (if you take that to mean leaves only).
    My understanding is that, in culinary usage, spices are from seeds, fruits, bark, flowers and roots, and herbs from leaves, regardless of whether the plant is herbaceous or not.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,613

    Edinburgh Council elections could see SNP follow Nicola Sturgeon and form new pact with Greens

    Labour's Cammy Day and the SNP's Adam McVey may not be the coalition leaders after next year's election with the chance of a deal with the Greens instead.

    The Greens up at the City Chambers have kept an arm’s length distance between themselves and the SNP/Labour coalition but, when push has come to shove, have lent their support when it mattered.

    … the Conservatives are destined to once more play a bit part in the next council term.

    https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/edinburgh-council-elections-could-see-snp-follow-nicola-sturgeon-and-form-new-pact-with-greens-steve-cardownie-3349037

    That's a bit on the level of 'if my granny had a tail I'd be a ****ing haddock' speculation.

    Isn't Mr Cardownie ex Labour, ex SNP, now Alba?

    And up on the hill, the Castle martyrs confirmed as anti-lockdowners.

    https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/crime/edinburgh-castle-police-officer-injured-and-man-arrested-as-anti-lockdown-magna-carta-protesters-seize-castle-3350212

    BBC website were remarkably reluctant to suggest this this morning and are still being very coy. Can't think why.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-58254322
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,973

    Commentators seem to be assuming that the Taliban have achieved and can maintain high degree of control. I wonder. Must be a good chance of internal conflict developing.

    I'd imagine tens of thousands of armed, sexually frustrated yoot high on adrenaline and jihad might become a problem, particularly if the old yins are in any way serious about their peaceful transition stuff.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,303
    Wait a darn tooting minute.

    Alexander the Great won his wars.

    Claiming otherwise is completely contrary to the historical facts.

    But then, Afghanistan didn't exist when he was there and imposing modern day geographical boundaries on the ancient world is silly.
  • Whom among us has not been duped into buying an Italian wine estate...

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2021/08/16/sting-duped-buying-italian-wine-estate/
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,296

    Only by breaking an Agreement (Doha) signed by Trump and the Taliban in Feb 2020.

    Obviously, if it had been Boris rather than Biden, he would have had no hesitation in breaking a signed agreement.
    Yep, Boris and Frostie would have stitched up the Taliban good and proper.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,137

    A few weeks ago I had to run through fifty metres of waist-high nettles (*). I had full-length trousers on, but still got nettle stings all up my legs. And on my privates.

    Sadly there were no dock leaves to rub on my d*ck. Or perhaps fortunately, as a woman was feeding horses in an adjacent paddock.

    Not my best run ever ...

    (*) An apparently very-disused public footpath. Except the nettles were either side of, and in, an immaculate metal clappergate.
    You should, perhaps, have asked to borrow the horse?

    (As a preventative measure, to raise you above the danger zone, so to speak; I don't think borrowing the horse after exposure would have been useful. It's also possible, depending on the horse and your experience, that the cure would be worse than the disease!)
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,892
    edited August 2021

    Wait a darn tooting minute.

    Alexander the Great won his wars.

    Claiming otherwise is completely contrary to the historical facts.

    But then, Afghanistan didn't exist when he was there and imposing modern day geographical boundaries on the ancient world is silly.

    Didn't he leave the Kalash people behind, though, and also found a network of the cities like Herat ?
  • “You don’t win wars by fighting in Afghanistan: witness the Soviets, witness the three Anglo-Afghan wars fought by the British Empire, witness Alexander the Great.”

    - Sir Ed Davey, 2009.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,081
    Sandpit said:

    Whoops. Wonder how many people have wired up their own shed, then put a big heater in it?

    That's illegal these days (in England)
  • Brutal. Richard Drax reads a text from a "very distinguished" General about the government's "filleting" of the army. The defence review means that we could not sustain future operations. Cutting our army by 10,000 - some signal of our intent, some signal to our allies"
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,712
    kinabalu said:

    Yep, Boris and Frostie would have stitched up the Taliban good and proper.
    Oh dear, you've lapsed into 'Boris'; thought you disapproved. Mind you, 'Frostie' is different - could make a cereal out of it.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,296

    I had this for weeks, which extraordinarily was suddenly cured by falling into some stinging nettles. Subsequently, and on the advice of an eccentric gardener, I've started deliberately taking a few stings every now and then as a curative to feel better more generally - and amazingly, it works.
    Try them in a soup maybe, instead of the whole body plunge?
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,137

    Whom among us has not been duped into buying an Italian wine estate...

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2021/08/16/sting-duped-buying-italian-wine-estate/

    I see they've already riffed on Message in a bottle :disappointed:

    But did he call The Police?
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,712
    Selebian said:

    I see they've already riffed on Message in a bottle :disappointed:

    But did he call The Police?
    After that joke, you'll be So Lonely.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,892
    edited August 2021
    kinabalu said:

    Try them in a soup maybe, instead of the whole body plunge?
    Yes, I've tried all sorts of nettles since that extravaganza, too. Tea with nettle, nettle soup, etc. All delicious.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,137

    After that joke, you'll be So Lonely.
    I Hung My Head :wink:
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    Aftertiming I know but just backed the 25/1 winner at York, it was a totally mad price
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,303
    Mr. Oracle, it's been a long time since I read TA Dodge's excellent history (which I can heartily recommend be take care you don't accidentally buy an abridged version which may be unmarked as such) and cannot remember that detail.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,911
    Selebian said:

    I see they've already riffed on Message in a bottle :disappointed:

    But did he call The Police?
    The Police, or as they’re now known. Sting.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,152
    Selebian said:

    I see they've already riffed on Message in a bottle :disappointed:

    But did he call The Police?
    If the wine is no good, he could try planting fields of barley.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,421
    edited August 2021
    Foss said:

    There are some interesting comments below the line in the archive of that page.

    I see TSE hasn't changed much in 12 years:

    I can’t believe no one has made a joke about Nick Clegg and withdrawal method, and why he managed not to get the 30women pregnant

    by The Screaming Eagles September 11th, 2009 at 10:28 am
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,296
    IshmaelZ said:

    Not a man who knows his onions?
    No. And reason for that is he's obsessed with ancient thymes.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,613
    kinabalu said:

    No. And reason for that is he's obsessed with ancient thymes.
    He does dilly-dally with his Polybius editions.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,137

    If the wine is no good, he could try planting fields of barley.
    Or indeed try and produce a Dessert Rosé

    (sorry, I'll stop now, unless I think of something even worse)
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,852
    edited August 2021
    TimT said:

    My understanding is that, in culinary usage, spices are from seeds, bark, flowers and roots, and herbs from leaves, regardless of whether the plant is herbaceous or not.
    Yes. Just to be extra confusing, herbal medicine includes non-leaf extracts from non-herbaceous plants (such as willow bark). (shrugs)

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,872
    Selebian said:

    You should, perhaps, have asked to borrow the horse?

    (As a preventative measure, to raise you above the danger zone, so to speak; I don't think borrowing the horse after exposure would have been useful. It's also possible, depending on the horse and your experience, that the cure would be worse than the disease!)
    I love looking at horses. Sadly, I don't get on well with them. They're very cultured animals, and they don't appear to like me. ;)

    Besides, getting it through the clappergate might have been problematic. And I've never heard of showjumping-through-nettles before...
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,296

    Oh dear, you've lapsed into 'Boris'; thought you disapproved. Mind you, 'Frostie' is different - could make a cereal out of it.
    Thousand apols. On my little phone so ... no, no excuse.

    JOHNSON.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    Scott_xP said:

    That's illegal these days (in England)
    Of course it is - hence the increase in fires!
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,137

    I love looking at horses. Sadly, I don't get on well with them. They're very cultured animals, and they don't appear to like me. ;)

    Besides, getting it through the clappergate might have been problematic. And I've never heard of showjumping-through-nettles before...
    I had to google clappergate, which wasn't straightforward - it kept trying to tell me about Clappersgate. Eventually came to this 'stile guide' - is it the same as the clapper stile listed? Before that I was thinking maybe what we around these parts call a kissing gate. I've never seen a clapper stile; familiar with the others.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,556

    Brutal. Richard Drax reads a text from a "very distinguished" General about the government's "filleting" of the army. The defence review means that we could not sustain future operations. Cutting our army by 10,000 - some signal of our intent, some signal to our allies"

    Don't think the Generals don't have an agenda. Think Len McCluskey with more medals.

    Their behaviour is arguably what got us into trouble (in Afghan) in the first place.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,556

    I love looking at horses. Sadly, I don't get on well with them. They're very cultured animals, and they don't appear to like me. ;)

    Besides, getting it through the clappergate might have been problematic. And I've never heard of showjumping-through-nettles before...
    At least it wasn't fields of wheat.
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 2,507

    Mr. Jessop, the nettles round here have rarely been so large due to the combination of lots of rain and lots of sun. The path is well-used but the nettles and so forth are still bigger than ever.

    Some nettles round here tower over me. Maybe 8ft tall.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    Brutal. Richard Drax reads a text from a "very distinguished" General about the government's "filleting" of the army. The defence review means that we could not sustain future operations. Cutting our army by 10,000 - some signal of our intent, some signal to our allies"

    Somebody should remind Drax the government he supports has just spent half a trillion on COVID, and intends to spend a further 1.4 trillion on net zero.

    The posturing from May, Ellwood, Mercer et al is just that. Britain is flat broke and they surely know it.

    They are, after all, the people that underwrote the spending measures.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,303
    Mr. 64, aye, never seen the usual summer growth to this extent before.

    But it's better than the year there was a horde of greenfly. That was physically unpleasant.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,278
    tlg86 said:

    I see TSE hasn't changed much in 12 years:

    I can’t believe no one has made a joke about Nick Clegg and withdrawal method, and why he managed not to get the 30women pregnant

    by The Screaming Eagles September 11th, 2009 at 10:28 am
    Now he is on £2.7 million a year as a VP at Facebook surprised none of them have come out asking for a paternity test, he obviously was very careful
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9632905/How-Nick-Clegg-began-Facebook-role-telling-EU-good-liberal-Silicon-Valley.html
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,278

    You can't rely on public opinion being stable on war issues - quite understandably they respond to events, and less understandably they often forget that they previously thought differently.
    I agree on that, the key is to do the right thing in your view in terms of military deployment or not and try and bring the public with you.

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,421
    HYUFD said:

    Now he is on £2.7 million a year as a VP at Facebook surprised none of them have come out asking for a paternity test, he obviously was very careful
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9632905/How-Nick-Clegg-began-Facebook-role-telling-EU-good-liberal-Silicon-Valley.html
    For a moment, I thought you were talking about TSE!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,613
    edited August 2021
    Selebian said:

    I had to google clappergate, which wasn't straightforward - it kept trying to tell me about Clappersgate. Eventually came to this 'stile guide' - is it the same as the clapper stile listed? Before that I was thinking maybe what we around these parts call a kissing gate. I've never seen a clapper stile; familiar with the others.
    I did try too - the one with the nettles can't be the same as this can they? These let horses through.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clapper_gates
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,211

    Only by breaking an Agreement (Doha) signed by Trump and the Taliban in Feb 2020.

    Obviously, if it had been Boris rather than Biden, he would have had no hesitation in breaking a signed agreement.
    The point, though, is that since the signing of the agreement, the US had taken no military casualties. Had they abrogated it, that would almost undoubtedly have changed, and US public opinion would be even more negative than it is now.

    I'm not defending Biden's handling of this, but the idea that the US might simply have continued the occupation is fanciful. And that it might have done so without negative consequences, absurd.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,872
    Selebian said:

    I had to google clappergate, which wasn't straightforward - it kept trying to tell me about Clappersgate. Eventually came to this 'stile guide' - is it the same as the clapper stile listed? Before that I was thinking maybe what we around these parts call a kissing gate. I've never seen a clapper stile; familiar with the others.
    This is almost exactly the sort of thing:
    https://mcveighparker.com/gates/row-gates/kissing-gates/woodstock-kissing-gate#212=

    In our family, we've always referred to them as either clappergates (because the gate 'claps' either side of the opening), or kissing-gates, fairly interchangeably.

    I've seen a couple of the 'clapper stiles' shown on your page. Given the amount of miles I've walked, they must be fairly rare. Can't remember where I've seen them though. Perhaps the Cotswolds?

    Another interesting point is the way footpath quality varies according to council. Here in Cambridgeshire, the footpaths and bridleways *tend* to be fairly well looked after. Go a few metres into Bedfordshire, and they can be terrible. Sometimes a path that crosses the border between the two can go from well-kept to almost impassable, with signs missing and stiles broken or impassable. I wonder if this is down to the council's footpath officers being more proactive in ensuring they are clear. Or is it local rambling groups?

    Although I've just checked the map, and this footpath was actually about 200 metres inside Cambridgeshire, paralleling the border. But as I said, the gate was in good condition.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,211
    TimT said:

    My understanding is that, in culinary usage, spices are from seeds, fruits, bark, flowers and roots, and herbs from leaves, regardless of whether the plant is herbaceous or not.
    Variety, though, is the spice of leaf.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,737
    IanB2 said:

    We always knew you were no sage.
    Put that in your pipe and smoke it..
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Foss said:

    There are some interesting comments below the line in the archive of that page.

    The first to comment didn't cover himself in glory with this one!

    "Such a blatantly obvious policy stance to be adopted by a party with absolutely zero chance of forming the next Government that it’s just surprising that Clegg didn’t decide on this one earlier.

    by Peter from Putney September 11th, 2009 at 3:15 am"
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,872
    Carnyx said:

    I did try too - the one with the nettles can't be the same as this can they? These let horses through.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clapper_gates
    I've walked past/through some of those.

    And that's interesting: I got 'clapper gates' for the metal round gates from my dad. Who, as a youth, lived quite near that part of the Trent in Lincolnshire.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,737

    Whom among us has not been duped into buying an Italian wine estate...

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2021/08/16/sting-duped-buying-italian-wine-estate/

    Is that code for "I didn't do my homework"?
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,852
    edited August 2021

    Some nettles round here tower over me. Maybe 8ft tall.
    They are a good indicator of excess phosphates and nitrates in the soil and (as you might expect) have become more prevalent over the past 50 years.

    I think the correct solution to the footpath problem was to feed the nettles to the horse...
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    You can't rely on public opinion being stable on war issues - quite understandably they respond to events, and less understandably they often forget that they previously thought differently.
    In the poll that formed the basis of the last thread header, 9% thought Sir Keir had handled the Afghan crisis well, and 26% thought badly...

    How can ANYONE have had an opinion on how he had done? He hadn't done, and cannot have done, anything!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,999
    edited August 2021
    That Afghan Army experience in the First Anglo-Afghan War......The diary of Lady Sale, 1842:

    "As the night fell and with it, the temperature, dropped well below freezing. The retreating force then learned that they lost all of their supplies of food and their baggage. On the second day all of the men of the Royal Afghan Army's 6th regiment deserted, heading back to Kabul, marking the end of the first attempt to give Afghanistan a national army...."
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,267

    You can't rely on public opinion being stable on war issues - quite understandably they respond to events, and less understandably they often forget that they previously thought differently.
    Very true.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,872

    They are a good indicator of excess phosphates and nitrates in the soil and (as you might expect) have become more prevalent over the past 50 years.

    I think the correct solution to the footpath problem was to feed the nettles to the horse...
    Or take them to the Bottle Inn, Dorset. Home of the World Nettle-Eating Championship.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bottle_Inn

    (I've camped there, after getting (ahem) lost walking the Wessex Ridgeway.)
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,580
    .
    isam said:

    The first to comment didn't cover himself in glory with this one!

    "Such a blatantly obvious policy stance to be adopted by a party with absolutely zero chance of forming the next Government that it’s just surprising that Clegg didn’t decide on this one earlier.

    by Peter from Putney September 11th, 2009 at 3:15 am"
    Yet Scott and Tim (persona non-grata, formerly of this parish) were blinkin' soothsayers. Ed Miliband for Labour leader. You saw it here first!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,211
    From the report of the Select Committee on International Relations and Defence, Jan 2021...
    https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld5801/ldselect/ldintrel/208/20812.htm#_idTextAnchor251
    117.We heard that the ongoing presence of US and NATO troops in Afghanistan is essential to the Afghan government’s military strength and negotiating position. Premature withdrawal by the US, likely to be matched by NATO partners, runs contrary to the UK’s objective of securing a durable negotiated settlement. (Paragraph 545)

    118.The UK should emphasise to the US and its NATO Allies the importance of their ongoing presence in Afghanistan until a peace deal is reached (Paragraph 546)

    119.The ongoing presence of UK troops in Afghanistan depends on the deployment decisions of the US. We were disappointed by the lack of analysis of the implications of the planned US withdrawal from Afghanistan provided by ministers in their evidence. We ask the Government to provide to us its assessment of the US’s policy. (Paragraph 547)

    120.The evidence we received demonstrated the challenges facing the Government on future security assistance to Afghanistan:

    A government with Taliban representation might not accept such assistance, and the UK and NATO Allies would need to consider what sort of assistance to provide to such a regime.
    If a peace deal was reached with the Taliban and the UK and international partners withdrew funding for the Afghan National Security Forces, this would critically undermine the viability of the Afghan forces.
    The UK and non-US NATO Allies are unlikely to remain in Afghanistan if the US withdraws its troops. The US presence is the largest in NATO; the end of its non-NATO mission is likely to result in the security situation deteriorating.
    We invite the Government to provide us with its assessment of these challenges.
    (Paragraph 552)...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,004
    BREAKING: Former Afghan President fled with $169MILLION in his helicopter and has been given asylum in Dubai https://trib.al/PM1rH1F

    He's lucky Dubai is a charitable nation, I'd be tempted to send him back to the hand choppers.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,559
    IanB2 said:

    As the first Covid lockdown hit, workers in Britain opted to turn their sheds into offices – “shoffices” – and bars, but the trend has led to a surge in outbuilding fires.

    Data from freedom of information requests by the insurer Zurich found that blazes in sheds, garages and conservatories rose by 16% in 2020 compared with the previous year.

    Whoever came up with the word "Shoffices" should be first against the wall.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 33,910
    How did the West get sucked into "nation building" in Afghanistan in the first place? We were suppose to be there only to dismantle the terrorism threat in 2001.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Andy_JS said:

    How did the West get sucked into "nation building" in Afghanistan in the first place? We were suppose to be there only to dismantle the terrorism threat in 2001.

    Doesn't appear to be that much different from the colonialism that everyone is so ashamed of, to me.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,675
    edited August 2021
    tlg86 said:

    How times change...

    https://order-order.com/2021/08/18/ed-davey-moves-on-from-tea-with-the-taliban-call/

    Ed Davey’s LibDems have been going in hard on Afghanistan, both calling for a greater number of refugees to be allowed into the UK and strongly condemning the US & UK military withdrawal, saying “our leaders should all hang their heads in shame.”

    Back at the LibDems’ 2009 conference, their future leader was instead calling for “tea with the Taliban”, and for Taliban fighters to be offered “a decent daily wage” to get them to defect. Now he criticises the withdrawal of troops, yet ten years ago Davey told the LibDem faithful:

    “You don’t win wars by fighting in Afghanistan: witness the Soviets, witness the three Anglo-Afghan wars fought by the British Empire, witness Alexander the Great.”
    LOL!

    The Lib-Dems: Never knowingly having fewer than two positions at the same time on any subject since 1989! :D
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,211
    Nigelb said:

    From the report of the Select Committee on International Relations and Defence, Jan 2021...
    https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld5801/ldselect/ldintrel/208/20812.htm#_idTextAnchor251
    117.We heard that the ongoing presence of US and NATO troops in Afghanistan is essential to the Afghan government’s military strength and negotiating position. Premature withdrawal by the US, likely to be matched by NATO partners, runs contrary to the UK’s objective of securing a durable negotiated settlement. (Paragraph 545)

    118.The UK should emphasise to the US and its NATO Allies the importance of their ongoing presence in Afghanistan until a peace deal is reached (Paragraph 546)

    119.The ongoing presence of UK troops in Afghanistan depends on the deployment decisions of the US. We were disappointed by the lack of analysis of the implications of the planned US withdrawal from Afghanistan provided by ministers in their evidence. We ask the Government to provide to us its assessment of the US’s policy. (Paragraph 547)

    120.The evidence we received demonstrated the challenges facing the Government on future security assistance to Afghanistan:

    A government with Taliban representation might not accept such assistance, and the UK and NATO Allies would need to consider what sort of assistance to provide to such a regime.
    If a peace deal was reached with the Taliban and the UK and international partners withdrew funding for the Afghan National Security Forces, this would critically undermine the viability of the Afghan forces.
    The UK and non-US NATO Allies are unlikely to remain in Afghanistan if the US withdraws its troops. The US presence is the largest in NATO; the end of its non-NATO mission is likely to result in the security situation deteriorating.
    We invite the Government to provide us with its assessment of these challenges.
    (Paragraph 552)...

    Note that is from the House of Lords Select Committee.

    AFAICS, the Commons Defence, and Foreign Affairs Select Committees didn't overly concern themselves with the matter.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,296
    isam said:

    In the poll that formed the basis of the last thread header, 9% thought Sir Keir had handled the Afghan crisis well, and 26% thought badly...

    How can ANYONE have had an opinion on how he had done? He hadn't done, and cannot have done, anything!
    That 26% is people like you - SDR types.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    kinabalu said:

    That 26% is people like you - SDR types.
    Obviously not, as I just said it was impossible to have an opinion on the matter.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,296
    Pulpstar said:

    BREAKING: Former Afghan President fled with $169MILLION in his helicopter and has been given asylum in Dubai https://trib.al/PM1rH1F

    He's lucky Dubai is a charitable nation, I'd be tempted to send him back to the hand choppers.

    Theft of $169m might involve more for the chop than just the hands.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,211
    edited August 2021
    Andy_JS said:

    How did the West get sucked into "nation building" in Afghanistan in the first place? We were suppose to be there only to dismantle the terrorism threat in 2001.

    Rumsfeld cocked the job up, and everything followed from that.

    He, you will recall, did it on the cheap, relying on the locals backed up by US air power...
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    Whoever came up with the word "Shoffices" should be first against the wall.
    Reminds me of the sauna Gary and Tony made from a shed in Men Bahaving Badly.....'its more of a shedna, Debs...'
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,211
    Why is Delta so much more contagious than prior #SARSCoV2 variants?
    It achieves membrane fusion far more efficiently and faster

    https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1427993987009318927
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,296
    isam said:

    Obviously not, as I just said it was impossible to have an opinion on the matter.
    Yes, fair enough, but that's because you're on here and there's standards. If they'd asked you in a survey, I bet you'd have gone for "badly".
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,470
    kinabalu said:

    Theft of $169m might involve more for the chop than just the hands.
    Something else - on various Twitter messages etc there are reports that Afghan soldiers were told to stand down by their senior commanders, because there was a peace deal.

    And apparently, Afghan Vice President Saleh has stepped up, put together a force (in conjunction with Ahmad Massoud) and retaken the Charikar area from Taliban.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 33,910
    Nigelb said:

    Rumsfeld cocked the job up, and everything followed from that.

    He, you will recall, did it on the cheap, relying on the locals backed up by US air power...
    Mission creep I suppose.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,211
    Nigelb said:

    From the report of the Select Committee on International Relations and Defence, Jan 2021...
    https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld5801/ldselect/ldintrel/208/20812.htm#_idTextAnchor251
    117.We heard that the ongoing presence of US and NATO troops in Afghanistan is essential to the Afghan government’s military strength and negotiating position. Premature withdrawal by the US, likely to be matched by NATO partners, runs contrary to the UK’s objective of securing a durable negotiated settlement. (Paragraph 545)

    118.The UK should emphasise to the US and its NATO Allies the importance of their ongoing presence in Afghanistan until a peace deal is reached (Paragraph 546)

    119.The ongoing presence of UK troops in Afghanistan depends on the deployment decisions of the US. We were disappointed by the lack of analysis of the implications of the planned US withdrawal from Afghanistan provided by ministers in their evidence. We ask the Government to provide to us its assessment of the US’s policy. (Paragraph 547)

    120.The evidence we received demonstrated the challenges facing the Government on future security assistance to Afghanistan:

    A government with Taliban representation might not accept such assistance, and the UK and NATO Allies would need to consider what sort of assistance to provide to such a regime.
    If a peace deal was reached with the Taliban and the UK and international partners withdrew funding for the Afghan National Security Forces, this would critically undermine the viability of the Afghan forces.
    The UK and non-US NATO Allies are unlikely to remain in Afghanistan if the US withdraws its troops. The US presence is the largest in NATO; the end of its non-NATO mission is likely to result in the security situation deteriorating.
    We invite the Government to provide us with its assessment of these challenges.
    (Paragraph 552)...

    Two initial conclusions from this...

    1) The House of Lords might be a very useful advisory institution... if anyone took any notice of it.
    2) It's utter shite to claim that no one saw this coming.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    kinabalu said:

    Yes, fair enough, but that's because you're on here and there's standards. If they'd asked you in a survey, I bet you'd have gone for "badly".
    Ah. I am slightly hurt you think that, but I wouldn't have anyway
  • kicorsekicorse Posts: 437
    edited August 2021

    That Afghan Army experience in the First Anglo-Afghan War......The diary of Lady Sale, 1842:

    "As the night fell and with it, the temperature, dropped well below freezing. The retreating force then learned that they lost all of their supplies of food and their baggage. On the second day all of the men of the Royal Afghan Army's 6th regiment deserted, heading back to Kabul, marking the end of the first attempt to give Afghanistan a national army...."

    The national army also offered little resistance in 1878, 1979 and 2001. There was much gloating in 2001 over the silly historians who warned against invasion. Maybe one day westerners will learn that the ability of Afghans to resist interventions isn't measured by the resilience of their national army, but I doubt it.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    kicorse said:

    Maybe one day westerners will learn that the ability of Afghans to resist interventions isn't measured by the resilience of their national army, but I doubt it.

    And that is because there really is no such thing as the nation of Afghanistan for which to have a national army. It's hard to have an effective national army without a nation.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,004

    Something else - on various Twitter messages etc there are reports that Afghan soldiers were told to stand down by their senior commanders, because there was a peace deal.

    And apparently, Afghan Vice President Saleh has stepped up, put together a force (in conjunction with Ahmad Massoud) and retaken the Charikar area from Taliban.
    The Tajiks of the Panshjr valley will be fighting the Pashtun Taliban for some time I think. We're best staying out of it*

    *Doubtless the CIA will be in there somewhere...
This discussion has been closed.