Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Don’t fear for Keir – politicalbetting.com

123468

Comments

  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    edited August 2021
    @Quincel Who is offering odds on "2024 or later"? I thought backing "2024" and "2025 or later" at 4/6 was good value back in March


  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 36,885
    DougSeal said:

    malcolmg said:

    Aslan said:

    malcolmg said:

    Aslan said:

    My goodness. What a horrific thread. Just endless Nats and Remoaners filling it up with bile and resentment as they howl at the moon.

    Can someone please launch a conversation thread about the right inflation target, or the latest Russian military technology, or the Ming Dynasty's administrative changes? Please, anything to save us from these two groups of zealots banging on about their obsessions.

    Jog on Loser your village is looking for it's idiot.
    You are a fine example of the intelligence and decency of the typical Scottish nationalist!
    Thick loser I see, better to be thought a fool than prove it. Well done 100% proven you are the complete fool.
    We still love you Malc.
    I am extremely lovable.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 25,987
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Taz said:

    Most people just want to get on with their lives.

    And Brexit is making it more difficult and expensive than it was previously.

    Which is why we will still be talking about it for the next decade (at least)
    My guesstimate is five decades. After all, the heid jobs banged on about it incessantly 1973-present.
    I won't see it in my lifetime and I'm mid 50s. Although I'll almost certainly be killed in a motorcycle accident in the next 5-10 years.

    The most likely long term trajectory is the 6 counties back in via a united Ireland, Scotland fast tracked in to spite England. England and Wales gradually realign into a Norway type relationship with the EU.
    Once Scotland and NI have gone the impetus towards independence will be taken up here in Wales for independence too.
    Nope, Wales is now the most Unionist nation in the UK.

    According to Yougov last year only 39% of Welsh voters wanted independence, compared to 49% of English voters who wanted independence.

    Polls at the same time showed 49% of NI voters wanted a United Ireland and 55% of Scots wanted independence (though now most polls show most Scots still want to stay in the UK)

    https://order-order.com/2020/08/19/wales-is-most-pro-uk-nation/.

    If the UK broke up while England would still be a G20 nation and Scotland could still rejoin the EU, Wales voted for Brexit in 2016 and out of the UK would be completely alone.

    Wales also relies even more on Westminster subsidy than Scotland does
    The figures you are giving in your second sentence don't exist. They are not poll results. They're made up from differtent polls from, presumably, different times and with different questions, and that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check.

    Thank you very much for cluttering this very pleasant Saturday thread with fictional tripe. You're welcome.
    Wrong.

    The English yougov poll and the Scottish yougov poll were just a month apart and asked the same question.

    So as I said Wales is now the most Unionist part of the UK.

    The link to the Guido site works fine.

    Scotland could swap alleged control from Westminster for control from Frankfurt and Berlin and leave the protection of the UK for the protection of the EU, Wales could not as it voted for Brexit too just like England
    I said "that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check." That means the second link inside the first, else I'd have said "That link you give is broken when one tries to check". FYI, that means the link in the Guido website doesn't work. So I can't check further.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 25,987
    malcolmg said:

    DougSeal said:

    malcolmg said:

    Aslan said:

    malcolmg said:

    Aslan said:

    My goodness. What a horrific thread. Just endless Nats and Remoaners filling it up with bile and resentment as they howl at the moon.

    Can someone please launch a conversation thread about the right inflation target, or the latest Russian military technology, or the Ming Dynasty's administrative changes? Please, anything to save us from these two groups of zealots banging on about their obsessions.

    Jog on Loser your village is looking for it's idiot.
    You are a fine example of the intelligence and decency of the typical Scottish nationalist!
    Thick loser I see, better to be thought a fool than prove it. Well done 100% proven you are the complete fool.
    We still love you Malc.
    I am extremely lovable.
    Quite right. I am too, really, but I'm off now that HYUFD is here and posting, erm, procedural inexactitudes whiuch might cause me to be impolite.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 102,704

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Taz said:

    Most people just want to get on with their lives.

    And Brexit is making it more difficult and expensive than it was previously.

    Which is why we will still be talking about it for the next decade (at least)
    My guesstimate is five decades. After all, the heid jobs banged on about it incessantly 1973-present.
    I won't see it in my lifetime and I'm mid 50s. Although I'll almost certainly be killed in a motorcycle accident in the next 5-10 years.

    The most likely long term trajectory is the 6 counties back in via a united Ireland, Scotland fast tracked in to spite England. England and Wales gradually realign into a Norway type relationship with the EU.
    Once Scotland and NI have gone the impetus towards independence will be taken up here in Wales for independence too.
    Nope, Wales is now the most Unionist nation in the UK.

    According to Yougov last year only 39% of Welsh voters wanted independence, compared to 49% of English voters who wanted independence.

    Polls at the same time showed 49% of NI voters wanted a United Ireland and 55% of Scots wanted independence (though now most polls show most Scots still want to stay in the UK)

    https://order-order.com/2020/08/19/wales-is-most-pro-uk-nation/.

    If the UK broke up while England would still be a G20 nation and Scotland could still rejoin the EU, Wales voted for Brexit in 2016 and out of the UK would be completely alone.

    Wales also relies even more on Westminster subsidy than Scotland does
    The figures you are giving in your second sentence don't exist. They are not poll results. They're made up from differtent polls from, presumably, different times and with different questions, and that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check.

    Thank you very much for cluttering this very pleasant Saturday thread with fictional tripe. You're welcome.
    Wrong.

    The English yougov poll and the Scottish yougov poll were just a month apart and asked the same question.

    So as I said Wales is now the most Unionist part of the UK
    Yes. You go on telling people in Wales what people in Wales think. You are definitely more clued up from your cave in Essicks than they are.
    No need to, the polling evidence is clear, Wales is the most Unionist part of the UK as Yougov shows
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 52,123
    Oh Bairstow, Bairstow, Bairstow. Just - why?
  • My gut feeling is that the next GE will be a 2010 or 2015 repeat

    That does rather beg the question "which?" 2010 and 2015 were very different elections.
  • My gut feeling is that the next GE will be a 2010 or 2015 repeat

    That does rather beg the question "which?" 2010 and 2015 were very different elections.
    Could go either way, I think the margins are slim.

    I get David Cameron vibes from Starmer - and Starmer is making a lot of quiet moves to move Labour in the correct direction IMHO.
  • kinabalu said:

    DougSeal said:

    Today I learned that Vincent van Gogh worked for a while as a supply teacher in Ramsgate.

    "Can you lot PLEASE just shut the fuck up for a second and listen!"

    "Sorry, sir."

    "Ok, so as I was saying, next lesson, we'll be going down to the sea and I want you to observe the way that the light sort of ... Oh for god's sake, yes, Jennifer?"

    "What have you done to your ear, sir?"
    "I think anybody would be depressed as a schoolmaster." – Harold Acton.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 35,338
    What a mealy mouthed bit of nonsense. More lawyerly ways of saying not very much at all.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 102,704
    edited August 2021
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Taz said:

    Most people just want to get on with their lives.

    And Brexit is making it more difficult and expensive than it was previously.

    Which is why we will still be talking about it for the next decade (at least)
    My guesstimate is five decades. After all, the heid jobs banged on about it incessantly 1973-present.
    I won't see it in my lifetime and I'm mid 50s. Although I'll almost certainly be killed in a motorcycle accident in the next 5-10 years.

    The most likely long term trajectory is the 6 counties back in via a united Ireland, Scotland fast tracked in to spite England. England and Wales gradually realign into a Norway type relationship with the EU.
    Once Scotland and NI have gone the impetus towards independence will be taken up here in Wales for independence too.
    Nope, Wales is now the most Unionist nation in the UK.

    According to Yougov last year only 39% of Welsh voters wanted independence, compared to 49% of English voters who wanted independence.

    Polls at the same time showed 49% of NI voters wanted a United Ireland and 55% of Scots wanted independence (though now most polls show most Scots still want to stay in the UK)

    https://order-order.com/2020/08/19/wales-is-most-pro-uk-nation/.

    If the UK broke up while England would still be a G20 nation and Scotland could still rejoin the EU, Wales voted for Brexit in 2016 and out of the UK would be completely alone.

    Wales also relies even more on Westminster subsidy than Scotland does
    The figures you are giving in your second sentence don't exist. They are not poll results. They're made up from differtent polls from, presumably, different times and with different questions, and that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check.

    Thank you very much for cluttering this very pleasant Saturday thread with fictional tripe. You're welcome.
    Wrong.

    The English yougov poll and the Scottish yougov poll were just a month apart and asked the same question.

    So as I said Wales is now the most Unionist part of the UK.

    The link to the Guido site works fine.

    Scotland could swap alleged control from Westminster for control from Frankfurt and Berlin and leave the protection of the UK for the protection of the EU, Wales could not as it voted for Brexit too just like England
    I said "that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check." That means the second link inside the first, else I'd have said "That link you give is broken when one tries to check". FYI, that means the link in the Guido website doesn't work. So I can't check further.
    Another Yougov poll last year had 35% of English voters backing independence in June 2020
    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18551749.yougov-poll-half-conservative-voters-england-support-english-independence/

    Yougov last November found only 23% of Welsh voters backing independence however
    https://www.countytimes.co.uk/news/18872232.yougov-survey-votes-welsh-independence

    Obviously the more Scottish Nats continue their anti English bile the more the temptation will come from some English voters, especially Leavers, to cut Scotland off without a penny and build a hard customs border across Cumbria and the Borders in retaliation.

    I however remain a Unionist and believe we are stronger together but do not be surprised if Scottish nationalism leads to an English nationalist backlash too
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 9,972
    I am so bored by SKS I just can't stand it. I wish he'd say 'fuck' on R4 or buy an SF90 in Abu Dhabi blue with a crema interior or call for the violent overthrow of the government.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 25,987
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Taz said:

    Most people just want to get on with their lives.

    And Brexit is making it more difficult and expensive than it was previously.

    Which is why we will still be talking about it for the next decade (at least)
    My guesstimate is five decades. After all, the heid jobs banged on about it incessantly 1973-present.
    I won't see it in my lifetime and I'm mid 50s. Although I'll almost certainly be killed in a motorcycle accident in the next 5-10 years.

    The most likely long term trajectory is the 6 counties back in via a united Ireland, Scotland fast tracked in to spite England. England and Wales gradually realign into a Norway type relationship with the EU.
    Once Scotland and NI have gone the impetus towards independence will be taken up here in Wales for independence too.
    Nope, Wales is now the most Unionist nation in the UK.

    According to Yougov last year only 39% of Welsh voters wanted independence, compared to 49% of English voters who wanted independence.

    Polls at the same time showed 49% of NI voters wanted a United Ireland and 55% of Scots wanted independence (though now most polls show most Scots still want to stay in the UK)

    https://order-order.com/2020/08/19/wales-is-most-pro-uk-nation/.

    If the UK broke up while England would still be a G20 nation and Scotland could still rejoin the EU, Wales voted for Brexit in 2016 and out of the UK would be completely alone.

    Wales also relies even more on Westminster subsidy than Scotland does
    The figures you are giving in your second sentence don't exist. They are not poll results. They're made up from differtent polls from, presumably, different times and with different questions, and that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check.

    Thank you very much for cluttering this very pleasant Saturday thread with fictional tripe. You're welcome.
    Wrong.

    The English yougov poll and the Scottish yougov poll were just a month apart and asked the same question.

    So as I said Wales is now the most Unionist part of the UK.

    The link to the Guido site works fine.

    Scotland could swap alleged control from Westminster for control from Frankfurt and Berlin and leave the protection of the UK for the protection of the EU, Wales could not as it voted for Brexit too just like England
    I said "that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check." That means the second link inside the first, else I'd have said "That link you give is broken when one tries to check". FYI, that means the link in the Guido website doesn't work. So I can't check further.
    Another Yougov poll last year had 35% of English voters backing independence in June 2020
    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18551749.yougov-poll-half-conservative-voters-england-support-english-independence/

    Yougov last November found only 23% of Welsh voters backing independence however
    https://www.countytimes.co.uk/news/18872232.yougov-survey-votes-welsh-independence/
    Doesn't change the fact you were telling us about data from nonexistent polls. Now I really am off to get on with other stuff.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 78,843
    Dura_Ace said:

    I am so bored by SKS I just can't stand it. I wish he'd say 'fuck' on R4 or buy an SF90 in Abu Dhabi blue with a crema interior or call for the violent overthrow of the government.

    He cannot out personality Boris - for good and ill - and trying would look silly. So I fear you will be left disappointed.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Taz said:

    Most people just want to get on with their lives.

    And Brexit is making it more difficult and expensive than it was previously.

    Which is why we will still be talking about it for the next decade (at least)
    My guesstimate is five decades. After all, the heid jobs banged on about it incessantly 1973-present.
    I won't see it in my lifetime and I'm mid 50s. Although I'll almost certainly be killed in a motorcycle accident in the next 5-10 years.

    The most likely long term trajectory is the 6 counties back in via a united Ireland, Scotland fast tracked in to spite England. England and Wales gradually realign into a Norway type relationship with the EU.
    Once Scotland and NI have gone the impetus towards independence will be taken up here in Wales for independence too.
    Nope, Wales is now the most Unionist nation in the UK.

    According to Yougov last year only 39% of Welsh voters wanted independence, compared to 49% of English voters who wanted independence.

    Polls at the same time showed 49% of NI voters wanted a United Ireland and 55% of Scots wanted independence (though now most polls show most Scots still want to stay in the UK)

    https://order-order.com/2020/08/19/wales-is-most-pro-uk-nation/.

    If the UK broke up while England would still be a G20 nation and Scotland could still rejoin the EU, Wales voted for Brexit in 2016 and out of the UK would be completely alone.

    Wales also relies even more on Westminster subsidy than Scotland does
    The figures you are giving in your second sentence don't exist. They are not poll results. They're made up from differtent polls from, presumably, different times and with different questions, and that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check.

    Thank you very much for cluttering this very pleasant Saturday thread with fictional tripe. You're welcome.
    Wrong.

    The English yougov poll and the Scottish yougov poll were just a month apart and asked the same question.

    So as I said Wales is now the most Unionist part of the UK
    Yes. You go on telling people in Wales what people in Wales think. You are definitely more clued up from your cave in Essicks than they are.
    No need to, the polling evidence is clear, Wales is the most Unionist part of the UK as Yougov shows
    Dear God man, you cannot gauge feel by opinion polls from afar. A poll is a snapshot, nothing more. You cannot haughtily tell someone in Wales what people in Wales are thinking like you know better without sounding like an absolute prannock. Polling follows opinion, it doesn't lead it.
  • Taz said:

    Carnyx said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    H

    malcolmg said:

    DougSeal said:

    malcolmg said:

    Fishing said:

    Good, persuasive article Pip.

    My gut feeling is that the Conservatives are going to lose those 40-50 seats you mention.

    Labour really ought to have large VI leads in England at this stage in the electoral cycle, but perhaps the combined effect of the three megashocks - IndyRefs 2014-present, Brexit 2016-present and Covid19 pandemic 2019-present - have created an English immune response to Labour?

    Labour, perhaps unfairly, are widely blamed for the first (eg Johnson calling devolution a "disaster" and Tony Blair's "biggest mistake"); made utter fools of themselves during the second; and have been mute bystanders to the third.

    England has been rejected, felt hurt and sore, turned her back on the world and sulked. The Conservatives put their arms round that nation and comforted and reassured, telling her don’t mind those ungrateful Caledonians, we’ll fix them good and proper; we’ll kick out those dodgy foreigners; and we are the best in the world at fighting foreign pests. All unmitigated nonsense, but England has totally lost the plot in the last decade and the Tories have been their comfort blanket during the mental breakdown.

    But the Tory cure has been much more harmful than the three diseases of rebellious Scots, repulsive Poles and rampaging Chinese virus. The time will come, and probably quite soon, when the English are going to realise that the blanket is no longer comforting them but smothering them.

    I doubt the average English voter gives a toss about Scotland one way or the other. Maybe that should be the rationale for Scottish independence, rather than what looks like a paranoid inferiority complex. We like the Scots but in a sentimental, biscuit tin, Monarch of the Glen way. Perhaps Nicola could use this as the SNP's new slogan: England doesn't know; England doesn't care.
    Yes, I agree with that. Most English people only notice Scotland when it complains particularly loudly, or demands even more subsidies.
    Another ignoramus, go get educated dummy, we have been propping you up since the 70's.
    I don’t know why you are so angry, Malc, and I don’t need to. What I can tell, though, is that you are clearly suffering and constantly reaching out with your nastiness to get some attention. Well, you certainly have mine. You have my attention and concern and my hand is reached out to you in prayer that whatever makes you so angry ends soon. I don’t have to know your needs to ask whatever higher power you believe in to heal your damaged soul and surround you in the love you so obviously need.
    You don't half talk some mince.
    https://youtu.be/Q9uJMOvAOGs
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP9BtScBQaI
    What on Earth was that !!
    NE Scotland. He's speaking the true Doric.
    There’s a Doric Arch pub in Euston I’m guessing it’s not the same thing
    a memorial to architectural vandalism 101
  • Keir Starmer can't out personality Johnson. If that is the way people end up voting he will lose.

    But I don't think that is what will necessarily happen. I think people are tiring of Johnson's attitude.

    What fascinates me is Sunak vs Starmer
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 102,704
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Taz said:

    Most people just want to get on with their lives.

    And Brexit is making it more difficult and expensive than it was previously.

    Which is why we will still be talking about it for the next decade (at least)
    My guesstimate is five decades. After all, the heid jobs banged on about it incessantly 1973-present.
    I won't see it in my lifetime and I'm mid 50s. Although I'll almost certainly be killed in a motorcycle accident in the next 5-10 years.

    The most likely long term trajectory is the 6 counties back in via a united Ireland, Scotland fast tracked in to spite England. England and Wales gradually realign into a Norway type relationship with the EU.
    Once Scotland and NI have gone the impetus towards independence will be taken up here in Wales for independence too.
    Nope, Wales is now the most Unionist nation in the UK.

    According to Yougov last year only 39% of Welsh voters wanted independence, compared to 49% of English voters who wanted independence.

    Polls at the same time showed 49% of NI voters wanted a United Ireland and 55% of Scots wanted independence (though now most polls show most Scots still want to stay in the UK)

    https://order-order.com/2020/08/19/wales-is-most-pro-uk-nation/.

    If the UK broke up while England would still be a G20 nation and Scotland could still rejoin the EU, Wales voted for Brexit in 2016 and out of the UK would be completely alone.

    Wales also relies even more on Westminster subsidy than Scotland does
    The figures you are giving in your second sentence don't exist. They are not poll results. They're made up from differtent polls from, presumably, different times and with different questions, and that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check.

    Thank you very much for cluttering this very pleasant Saturday thread with fictional tripe. You're welcome.
    Wrong.

    The English yougov poll and the Scottish yougov poll were just a month apart and asked the same question.

    So as I said Wales is now the most Unionist part of the UK.

    The link to the Guido site works fine.

    Scotland could swap alleged control from Westminster for control from Frankfurt and Berlin and leave the protection of the UK for the protection of the EU, Wales could not as it voted for Brexit too just like England
    I said "that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check." That means the second link inside the first, else I'd have said "That link you give is broken when one tries to check". FYI, that means the link in the Guido website doesn't work. So I can't check further.
    Another Yougov poll last year had 35% of English voters backing independence in June 2020
    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18551749.yougov-poll-half-conservative-voters-england-support-english-independence/

    Yougov last November found only 23% of Welsh voters backing independence however
    https://www.countytimes.co.uk/news/18872232.yougov-survey-votes-welsh-independence/
    Doesn't change the fact you were telling us about data from nonexistent polls. Now I really am off to get on with other stuff.
    I have just given you poll links proving my point
  • Dura_Ace said:

    I am so bored by SKS I just can't stand it. I wish he'd say 'fuck' on R4 or buy an SF90 in Abu Dhabi blue with a crema interior or call for the violent overthrow of the government.

    I don't think he has that in him - it just isn't who he is. I agree that he needs something to change the grey narrative but it won't be personal, it will have to be policy.

    So, your latter point. We can't support violent overthrows of anything. But the new post-Brexit political settlement is still in flux, it can still be shaped. Nobody has set out a viable and convincing vision for a post-Brexit Britain.

    Opportunity knocks for Starmer, perhaps. A new angle, that grabs a LOT of voters attention, feels authentic, unifies the Labour Party, outflanks the Tories. Stop sniggering at the back...
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 6,111
    Andy_JS said:

    "Snobbery is a very British vice - but according to the author of a new book it is no longer about looking down on people for having the wrong accent or manners.

    The "new snobbery" is a form of condescension practised by university-educated "progressives" - directed at people they consider ignorant and bigoted, David Skelton argues.

    He believes it is the biggest fault line in British politics, and could lead to the Conservative Party staying in power for the foreseeable future."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58186519

    An interesting article. Four things the English dislike especially; theory of any kind, public intellectuals, class envy and hypocrisy.

    Yes, England is riddled with class, and hardly anyone cares. Yes, Boris and Cameron went to Eton and their sons will go somewhere similar. Most people don't care because they don't want that for themselves and aren't envious enough to stop others and are happy with the fact of difference.

    The Tories manage to combine the illusion of lack of theory with a disdain for pseudo intellectuals, and play on the lack of class envy coupled with apparent Labour hypocrisy in a way which ensures that their coalition of support is more stable than Labour's. South Holland and Hartlepool have more in common than Liverpool Walton and Putney

  • DougSeal said:

    Foxy said:

    seahorse
    @seahorse4000
    My summer wave, so far.

    -kid with PIMS-TS in multiorgan failure
    -a teenage death
    -kids in their 20s in ICU
    -deaths of healthy unvaccinated 30 & 40 yr olds
    -clinically vulnerable vaccinated patients who thought they were protected, dying (one had just got married)


    seahorse
    @seahorse4000
    ·
    1h
    -the worst ever patient journey, from angrily arguing with us in ED that they don't believe in covid, to CPAP, to ICU, to ventilation, to death, those wretched family phone calls
    -tears and panic attacks and anger (staff). Hugs too
    -PPE in a heatwave is shit

    Or as I tweeted yesterday in response to the #NewNormal astroturfing:

    Our nurses have been drafted again for redeployment to ICU to look after the unvaccinnated on ventilators. This is why #NHS #waitinglists are mushrooming. This sadly is the #NewNormal

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1426244801985384455?s=19

    Friday afternoon a rolling rota of theatre cancellations and redeployment to ICU were announced in my Trust. ICU cannot staff 10 beds because of a mix of vacancies, maternity leave* and long term sickness. We have 21 covid patients on ICU, all unvaccinated. To say Mrs Foxy and colleagues are unhappy about this is cannot be overstated. I expect a number to go off sick for mental health reasons rather than go back.

    *pregnant staff go off on Mat Leave as soon as they can. Seeing pregnant women so poorly with covid tends to do that.
    Meanwhile, the twats in the Hart Group have had their chat logs leaked.
    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1421397013078360064.html

    Claire Craig, Michael Yeadon, Joel Smalley - from what they were writing about to each other and inside their group behind closed doors - these people have gone way further down the looney antivaxxer line than anything I'd ever imagined.

    "I think we need to seed the thought that vaccines cause covid"
    "How do we persuade a parent who believes that their child is vulnerable (for whatever reason) is not vulnerable? How do we persuade parents that the flu shot... should be questioned when we have previously said we thought other vaccinations are safe and effective?"

    Discussing whether it's all a big plot to depopulate the Earth
    Talking about people becoming magnetic. Or about 5G.
    Genuinely expecting mass deaths from vaccination by April this year (notably the failure of that to happen doesn't seem to have slowed them all down) - they assumed that the increased gap between doses was because everyone was dying from the second dose and predicted carnage when the second doses were given out.
    Deliberately trying to play up fears about fertility to try to cut through with the young.

    Wow.

    I thought Claire Craig was a loon, now I find she is actively malevolent
    I had to look her up. Her latest tweet is complaining that it will "take years to undo" the expansion of lab testing: "testing should be reserved for the sick and not carried out in laboratories ... ".
    "... where speed and volume take precedent over quality of results."

    Including all the text does appear to have quite the effect.

  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I am so bored by SKS I just can't stand it. I wish he'd say 'fuck' on R4 or buy an SF90 in Abu Dhabi blue with a crema interior or call for the violent overthrow of the government.

    He cannot out personality Boris - for good and ill - and trying would look silly. So I fear you will be left disappointed.
    Every major politician is going to be defined by his opponents with a negative version of themselves. Smart politicians want to have the negative description as being something that is (a) not much of a negative when things get serious and (b) easily changeable when needed. "Dull and boring" is pretty good, so is "PR focused". Much better than "chronically lazy", "wildly immoral" or "raving nutbar Marxist".
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 28,952
    edited August 2021
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Taz said:

    Most people just want to get on with their lives.

    And Brexit is making it more difficult and expensive than it was previously.

    Which is why we will still be talking about it for the next decade (at least)
    My guesstimate is five decades. After all, the heid jobs banged on about it incessantly 1973-present.
    I won't see it in my lifetime and I'm mid 50s. Although I'll almost certainly be killed in a motorcycle accident in the next 5-10 years.

    The most likely long term trajectory is the 6 counties back in via a united Ireland, Scotland fast tracked in to spite England. England and Wales gradually realign into a Norway type relationship with the EU.
    Once Scotland and NI have gone the impetus towards independence will be taken up here in Wales for independence too.
    Nope, Wales is now the most Unionist nation in the UK.

    According to Yougov last year only 39% of Welsh voters wanted independence, compared to 49% of English voters who wanted independence.

    Polls at the same time showed 49% of NI voters wanted a United Ireland and 55% of Scots wanted independence (though now most polls show most Scots still want to stay in the UK)

    https://order-order.com/2020/08/19/wales-is-most-pro-uk-nation/.

    If the UK broke up while England would still be a G20 nation and Scotland could still rejoin the EU, Wales voted for Brexit in 2016 and out of the UK would be completely alone.

    Wales also relies even more on Westminster subsidy than Scotland does
    The figures you are giving in your second sentence don't exist. They are not poll results. They're made up from differtent polls from, presumably, different times and with different questions, and that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check.

    Thank you very much for cluttering this very pleasant Saturday thread with fictional tripe. You're welcome.
    Wrong.

    The English yougov poll and the Scottish yougov poll were just a month apart and asked the same question.

    So as I said Wales is now the most Unionist part of the UK
    Yes. You go on telling people in Wales what people in Wales think. You are definitely more clued up from your cave in Essicks than they are.
    No need to, the polling evidence is clear, Wales is the most Unionist part of the UK as Yougov shows
    Problem for Wales is that loads of the brighter people were forced out, due to English mismanagement, and were replaced by English retirees.

    One only has to look at the housing situation in Gwynedd and Ynys Môn.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 52,123
    Typical. You wait three years for a Joe Root hundred at home and then two come along at once.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 28,952
    algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Snobbery is a very British vice - but according to the author of a new book it is no longer about looking down on people for having the wrong accent or manners.

    The "new snobbery" is a form of condescension practised by university-educated "progressives" - directed at people they consider ignorant and bigoted, David Skelton argues.

    He believes it is the biggest fault line in British politics, and could lead to the Conservative Party staying in power for the foreseeable future."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58186519

    An interesting article. Four things the English dislike especially; theory of any kind, public intellectuals, class envy and hypocrisy.

    Yes, England is riddled with class, and hardly anyone cares. Yes, Boris and Cameron went to Eton and their sons will go somewhere similar. Most people don't care because they don't want that for themselves and aren't envious enough to stop others and are happy with the fact of difference.

    The Tories manage to combine the illusion of lack of theory with a disdain for pseudo intellectuals, and play on the lack of class envy coupled with apparent Labour hypocrisy in a way which ensures that their coalition of support is more stable than Labour's. South Holland and Hartlepool have more in common than Liverpool Walton and Putney

    It's going cost Boris a bob or two if all his children get educated at Eton, or the female equivalent. How are we going to pay for it?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 17,815

    On Topic hopefully you are wrong otherwise a 5th successive defeat for Labour

    Don't forget 2017 and 2019 for Jeremy Corbyn, were glorious victories.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 30,520
    algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Snobbery is a very British vice - but according to the author of a new book it is no longer about looking down on people for having the wrong accent or manners.

    The "new snobbery" is a form of condescension practised by university-educated "progressives" - directed at people they consider ignorant and bigoted, David Skelton argues.

    He believes it is the biggest fault line in British politics, and could lead to the Conservative Party staying in power for the foreseeable future."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58186519

    An interesting article. Four things the English dislike especially; theory of any kind, public intellectuals, class envy and hypocrisy.

    Yes, England is riddled with class, and hardly anyone cares. Yes, Boris and Cameron went to Eton and their sons will go somewhere similar. Most people don't care because they don't want that for themselves and aren't envious enough to stop others and are happy with the fact of difference.

    The Tories manage to combine the illusion of lack of theory with a disdain for pseudo intellectuals, and play on the lack of class envy coupled with apparent Labour hypocrisy in a way which ensures that their coalition of support is more stable than Labour's. South Holland and Hartlepool have more in common than Liverpool Walton and Putney
    How come these simple, good hearted folk who want a quiet life colonized half the planet not so very long ago?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 6,111
    MaxPB said:

    What a mealy mouthed bit of nonsense. More lawyerly ways of saying not very much at all.
    Quite. And two things that aren't being said in the west very much: It isn't possible that after 20 years of intervention the Taliban can quickly take over a large country that has its own army unless it has massive support within its own borders. And Afghans who want a more western liberal society (as I would) seem not to know even yet that it is not the intensity of your values that will preserve them but the willingness of your army and your young men to fight and die for that cause. It's a 1940 choice.

    Thirdly; who is arming the Taliban?

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 102,704
    edited August 2021

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Taz said:

    Most people just want to get on with their lives.

    And Brexit is making it more difficult and expensive than it was previously.

    Which is why we will still be talking about it for the next decade (at least)
    My guesstimate is five decades. After all, the heid jobs banged on about it incessantly 1973-present.
    I won't see it in my lifetime and I'm mid 50s. Although I'll almost certainly be killed in a motorcycle accident in the next 5-10 years.

    The most likely long term trajectory is the 6 counties back in via a united Ireland, Scotland fast tracked in to spite England. England and Wales gradually realign into a Norway type relationship with the EU.
    Once Scotland and NI have gone the impetus towards independence will be taken up here in Wales for independence too.
    Nope, Wales is now the most Unionist nation in the UK.

    According to Yougov last year only 39% of Welsh voters wanted independence, compared to 49% of English voters who wanted independence.

    Polls at the same time showed 49% of NI voters wanted a United Ireland and 55% of Scots wanted independence (though now most polls show most Scots still want to stay in the UK)

    https://order-order.com/2020/08/19/wales-is-most-pro-uk-nation/.

    If the UK broke up while England would still be a G20 nation and Scotland could still rejoin the EU, Wales voted for Brexit in 2016 and out of the UK would be completely alone.

    Wales also relies even more on Westminster subsidy than Scotland does
    The figures you are giving in your second sentence don't exist. They are not poll results. They're made up from differtent polls from, presumably, different times and with different questions, and that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check.

    Thank you very much for cluttering this very pleasant Saturday thread with fictional tripe. You're welcome.
    Wrong.

    The English yougov poll and the Scottish yougov poll were just a month apart and asked the same question.

    So as I said Wales is now the most Unionist part of the UK
    Yes. You go on telling people in Wales what people in Wales think. You are definitely more clued up from your cave in Essicks than they are.
    No need to, the polling evidence is clear, Wales is the most Unionist part of the UK as Yougov shows
    Problem for Wales is that loads of the brighter people were forced out, due to English mismanagement, and were replaced by English retirees.

    One only has to look at the housing situation in Gwynedd and Ynys Môn.
    The Tories also got a higher voteshare in Wales in 2019 than in London, 36% to 32%.

    Plenty of young, graduate centre left Welsh Remainers move to London for their careers and don't come back and plenty of Brexit voting English Tories move to the Welsh coast or countryside for their retirement and stay until they die
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 41,810
    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Snobbery is a very British vice - but according to the author of a new book it is no longer about looking down on people for having the wrong accent or manners.

    The "new snobbery" is a form of condescension practised by university-educated "progressives" - directed at people they consider ignorant and bigoted, David Skelton argues.

    He believes it is the biggest fault line in British politics, and could lead to the Conservative Party staying in power for the foreseeable future."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58186519

    An interesting article. Four things the English dislike especially; theory of any kind, public intellectuals, class envy and hypocrisy.

    Yes, England is riddled with class, and hardly anyone cares. Yes, Boris and Cameron went to Eton and their sons will go somewhere similar. Most people don't care because they don't want that for themselves and aren't envious enough to stop others and are happy with the fact of difference.

    The Tories manage to combine the illusion of lack of theory with a disdain for pseudo intellectuals, and play on the lack of class envy coupled with apparent Labour hypocrisy in a way which ensures that their coalition of support is more stable than Labour's. South Holland and Hartlepool have more in common than Liverpool Walton and Putney
    How come these simple, good hearted folk who want a quiet life colonized half the planet not so very long ago?
    They were the ones who left.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 17,815

    DavidL said:

    On topic I am sure that @Quincel is right. Labour stuck by Corbyn, even when the vast majority of his MPs could see that he was a disaster and gave a vote of no confidence in him. SKS has clear and strong support amongst those MPs, even if he does not engender anything like the same level of fanaticism in the membership.

    The MPs support him because he is decent, intelligent, reasonably principled and not obviously subject to the same delusional mindset that Corbyn was. I personally think that he would be much better suited to being a PM than he is LOTO. I think opposing for the sake of it is not something that he is comfortable with; he is really uncomfortable with the sort of cheap shots and gimmicks that LOTOs have to indulge in to get attention, he is in many ways the epitome of the reasonable man.

    I would have been utterly horrified if someone with Corbyn's mindset had ever become our PM. I would be disappointed if SKS did but not overly alarmed or concerned. The incompetence of government would probably continue at a normal rate but would not increase exponentially. The competence and quality of his Shadow Cabinet is a bit of a concern but there are some complete muppets in the current cabinet such as Williamson and the damage is localised if significant.

    All of which is a typically long winded lawyers way of agreeing that @Casino_Royale has hit the nail on the head. He is not a politician, he's actually a better person than that.

    Yes, but it also illustrates the problem. Making people feel that you are merely disappointing rather than horrific gets you precisely zero votes - DavidL is not comsidering voting Labour although he sees no great difference in the front benches and if anything seems to prefer Starmer to Johnson. Thus replacing Corbyn with Starmer loses the interest of left-wingers (although perhaps not their votes) without gaining votes from people like DavidL.

    Being respected is a good starting point, but you need some positive appeal too. If you don't mind being a sample, David, what would make you actually vote Labour?
    I cannot see myself voting LAB in 2024 if still led by this useless nonentity
    Which by default gives you the Conservative Government you, in you heart of hearts want. This allows the hard left to moan and carp about the injustice of self-serving Tories running the show, yet when you had the opportunity to change this you didn't.

    Better a blue Tory than a red Tory eh?
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Cheers for the post Pip. In agreement with you, cannot see Keir being forced out pre-the next election. The Labour Party seems to have accepted that he is the best thing for them at the moment.

    The problem with Labour is that they have very few, if any, credible alternatives. The call for Andy Burnham are hilarious, a candidate who would be skewered on the questions about the Mid Staffs Health scandal any time he brought up the NHS. It's only middle-class liberal types who have their notion that Andy is loved as "King of the North". Most other people see an indifferent politician.

    Labour is going to lose again. A large chunk of its former voters see Labour as full of people who despise them and their values. Not a recipe for success.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 78,843

    On Topic hopefully you are wrong otherwise a 5th successive defeat for Labour

    Don't forget 2017 and 2019 for Jeremy Corbyn, were glorious victories.
    The Dunkirk elections? He hopes.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 102,704
    edited August 2021
    MrEd said:

    Cheers for the post Pip. In agreement with you, cannot see Keir being forced out pre-the next election. The Labour Party seems to have accepted that he is the best thing for them at the moment.

    The problem with Labour is that they have very few, if any, credible alternatives. The call for Andy Burnham are hilarious, a candidate who would be skewered on the questions about the Mid Staffs Health scandal any time he brought up the NHS. It's only middle-class liberal types who have their notion that Andy is loved as "King of the North". Most other people see an indifferent politician.

    Labour is going to lose again. A large chunk of its former voters see Labour as full of people who despise them and their values. Not a recipe for success.

    There is David Miliband too. However I doubt he could be tempted back from his $1 million a year job in NYC to lead the Labour Party on barely a tenth of the salary when they rejected him once already.

    However Labour does not need a majority for Starmer to become PM if the LDs also gain enough southern Tory seats to force a hung parliament
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 17,815

    My gut feeling is that the next GE will be a 2010 or 2015 repeat

    Cameron becomes PM? These days,after Johnson, I could live with that!
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 4,083
    MrEd said:

    Cheers for the post Pip. In agreement with you, cannot see Keir being forced out pre-the next election. The Labour Party seems to have accepted that he is the best thing for them at the moment.

    The problem with Labour is that they have very few, if any, credible alternatives. The call for Andy Burnham are hilarious, a candidate who would be skewered on the questions about the Mid Staffs Health scandal any time he brought up the NHS. It's only middle-class liberal types who have their notion that Andy is loved as "King of the North". Most other people see an indifferent politician.

    Labour is going to lose again. A large chunk of its former voters see Labour as full of people who despise them and their values. Not a recipe for success.

    I agree with most of that.

    The intriguing thing is that a large chunk of former Conservative voters (remain, socially liberal, fiscally dry) see the Conservatives as full of people who despise them and their values. And yet this is, for now, a recipe for success.

    Can labour or the lib dems appeal to them? Fiscally dry probably sinks labour on that front, but there could be promising ground for the lib dems if a Conservative majority is unappealing and a Labour minority (or even, remotely, a majority) not scary. First, of course, the lib dems need to convince that they're more than a joke/electoral curiosity.
  • felixfelix Posts: 14,262
    Aslan said:

    My goodness. What a horrific thread. Just endless Nats and Remoaners filling it up with bile and resentment as they howl at the moon.

    Can someone please launch a conversation thread about the right inflation target, or the latest Russian military technology, or the Ming Dynasty's administrative changes? Please, anything to save us from these two groups of zealots banging on about their obsessions.

    It's been pretty much constant all the past week. Noticeable that relatively few people are actually posting.
  • algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Snobbery is a very British vice - but according to the author of a new book it is no longer about looking down on people for having the wrong accent or manners.

    The "new snobbery" is a form of condescension practised by university-educated "progressives" - directed at people they consider ignorant and bigoted, David Skelton argues.

    He believes it is the biggest fault line in British politics, and could lead to the Conservative Party staying in power for the foreseeable future."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58186519

    An interesting article. Four things the English dislike especially; theory of any kind, public intellectuals, class envy and hypocrisy.

    Yes, England is riddled with class, and hardly anyone cares. Yes, Boris and Cameron went to Eton and their sons will go somewhere similar. Most people don't care because they don't want that for themselves and aren't envious enough to stop others and are happy with the fact of difference.

    The Tories manage to combine the illusion of lack of theory with a disdain for pseudo intellectuals, and play on the lack of class envy coupled with apparent Labour hypocrisy in a way which ensures that their coalition of support is more stable than Labour's. South Holland and Hartlepool have more in common than Liverpool Walton and Putney

    It's going cost Boris a bob or two if all his children get educated at Eton, or the female equivalent. How are we going to pay for it?
    Boris himself was on a freebie at Eton iirc so it might be a case of scholarships or the local comp, and surely most of Boris's sprogs are old enough to be at school or to have left by now? It's just Wilf and the bump to pay for. Doubtless Boris will have seen how many millions his old Eton chum Dave got for a couple of phone calls.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 42,053
    edited August 2021
    Dura_Ace said:

    I am so bored by SKS I just can't stand it. I wish he'd say 'fuck' on R4 or buy an SF90 in Abu Dhabi blue with a crema interior or call for the violent overthrow of the government.

    Why don't you just fuck off and join the Tories?!

    :lol:
    (only kidding!)
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673

    DavidL said:

    On topic I am sure that @Quincel is right. Labour stuck by Corbyn, even when the vast majority of his MPs could see that he was a disaster and gave a vote of no confidence in him. SKS has clear and strong support amongst those MPs, even if he does not engender anything like the same level of fanaticism in the membership.

    The MPs support him because he is decent, intelligent, reasonably principled and not obviously subject to the same delusional mindset that Corbyn was. I personally think that he would be much better suited to being a PM than he is LOTO. I think opposing for the sake of it is not something that he is comfortable with; he is really uncomfortable with the sort of cheap shots and gimmicks that LOTOs have to indulge in to get attention, he is in many ways the epitome of the reasonable man.

    I would have been utterly horrified if someone with Corbyn's mindset had ever become our PM. I would be disappointed if SKS did but not overly alarmed or concerned. The incompetence of government would probably continue at a normal rate but would not increase exponentially. The competence and quality of his Shadow Cabinet is a bit of a concern but there are some complete muppets in the current cabinet such as Williamson and the damage is localised if significant.

    All of which is a typically long winded lawyers way of agreeing that @Casino_Royale has hit the nail on the head. He is not a politician, he's actually a better person than that.

    Yes, but it also illustrates the problem. Making people feel that you are merely disappointing rather than horrific gets you precisely zero votes - DavidL is not comsidering voting Labour although he sees no great difference in the front benches and if anything seems to prefer Starmer to Johnson. Thus replacing Corbyn with Starmer loses the interest of left-wingers (although perhaps not their votes) without gaining votes from people like DavidL.

    Being respected is a good starting point, but you need some positive appeal too. If you don't mind being a sample, David, what would make you actually vote Labour?
    I cannot see myself voting LAB in 2024 if still led by this useless nonentity
    Which by default gives you the Conservative Government you, in you heart of hearts want. This allows the hard left to moan and carp about the injustice of self-serving Tories running the show, yet when you had the opportunity to change this you didn't.

    Better a blue Tory than a red Tory eh?
    On the other hand, I am considering voting Labour to punish the Tories for the bumbling response to COVID. Sir Keir seems like a reasonable bloke. The biggest thing that stands in my way is worry that he will submit us to EU determined rules again, or open up unskilled migration. If he made firm pledges on these things I would definitely vote for him.
  • DougSeal said:

    Foxy said:

    seahorse
    @seahorse4000
    My summer wave, so far.

    -kid with PIMS-TS in multiorgan failure
    -a teenage death
    -kids in their 20s in ICU
    -deaths of healthy unvaccinated 30 & 40 yr olds
    -clinically vulnerable vaccinated patients who thought they were protected, dying (one had just got married)


    seahorse
    @seahorse4000
    ·
    1h
    -the worst ever patient journey, from angrily arguing with us in ED that they don't believe in covid, to CPAP, to ICU, to ventilation, to death, those wretched family phone calls
    -tears and panic attacks and anger (staff). Hugs too
    -PPE in a heatwave is shit

    Or as I tweeted yesterday in response to the #NewNormal astroturfing:

    Our nurses have been drafted again for redeployment to ICU to look after the unvaccinnated on ventilators. This is why #NHS #waitinglists are mushrooming. This sadly is the #NewNormal

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1426244801985384455?s=19

    Friday afternoon a rolling rota of theatre cancellations and redeployment to ICU were announced in my Trust. ICU cannot staff 10 beds because of a mix of vacancies, maternity leave* and long term sickness. We have 21 covid patients on ICU, all unvaccinated. To say Mrs Foxy and colleagues are unhappy about this is cannot be overstated. I expect a number to go off sick for mental health reasons rather than go back.

    *pregnant staff go off on Mat Leave as soon as they can. Seeing pregnant women so poorly with covid tends to do that.
    Meanwhile, the twats in the Hart Group have had their chat logs leaked.
    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1421397013078360064.html

    Claire Craig, Michael Yeadon, Joel Smalley - from what they were writing about to each other and inside their group behind closed doors - these people have gone way further down the looney antivaxxer line than anything I'd ever imagined.

    "I think we need to seed the thought that vaccines cause covid"
    "How do we persuade a parent who believes that their child is vulnerable (for whatever reason) is not vulnerable? How do we persuade parents that the flu shot... should be questioned when we have previously said we thought other vaccinations are safe and effective?"

    Discussing whether it's all a big plot to depopulate the Earth
    Talking about people becoming magnetic. Or about 5G.
    Genuinely expecting mass deaths from vaccination by April this year (notably the failure of that to happen doesn't seem to have slowed them all down) - they assumed that the increased gap between doses was because everyone was dying from the second dose and predicted carnage when the second doses were given out.
    Deliberately trying to play up fears about fertility to try to cut through with the young.

    Wow.

    I thought Claire Craig was a loon, now I find she is actively malevolent
    I had to look her up. Her latest tweet is complaining that it will "take years to undo" the expansion of lab testing: "testing should be reserved for the sick and not carried out in laboratories ... ".
    "... where speed and volume take precedent over quality of results."

    Including all the text does appear to have quite the effect.

    "We have 21 covid patients on ICU, all unvaccinated."

    The Government should be doing more to use this kind of detail to ram the message home on social media: get a frigging vax already you idiots.
    "COVID - don't die of hesitance(y)"
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Snobbery is a very British vice - but according to the author of a new book it is no longer about looking down on people for having the wrong accent or manners.

    The "new snobbery" is a form of condescension practised by university-educated "progressives" - directed at people they consider ignorant and bigoted, David Skelton argues.

    He believes it is the biggest fault line in British politics, and could lead to the Conservative Party staying in power for the foreseeable future."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58186519

    An interesting article. Four things the English dislike especially; theory of any kind, public intellectuals, class envy and hypocrisy.

    Yes, England is riddled with class, and hardly anyone cares. Yes, Boris and Cameron went to Eton and their sons will go somewhere similar. Most people don't care because they don't want that for themselves and aren't envious enough to stop others and are happy with the fact of difference.

    The Tories manage to combine the illusion of lack of theory with a disdain for pseudo intellectuals, and play on the lack of class envy coupled with apparent Labour hypocrisy in a way which ensures that their coalition of support is more stable than Labour's. South Holland and Hartlepool have more in common than Liverpool Walton and Putney
    How come these simple, good hearted folk who want a quiet life colonized half the planet not so very long ago?
    They didn't? Only a tiny share of the British population were involved in running the Empire. And they were disproportionately Scots and Irish.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 23,487
    edited August 2021

    DougSeal said:

    Foxy said:

    seahorse
    @seahorse4000
    My summer wave, so far.

    -kid with PIMS-TS in multiorgan failure
    -a teenage death
    -kids in their 20s in ICU
    -deaths of healthy unvaccinated 30 & 40 yr olds
    -clinically vulnerable vaccinated patients who thought they were protected, dying (one had just got married)


    seahorse
    @seahorse4000
    ·
    1h
    -the worst ever patient journey, from angrily arguing with us in ED that they don't believe in covid, to CPAP, to ICU, to ventilation, to death, those wretched family phone calls
    -tears and panic attacks and anger (staff). Hugs too
    -PPE in a heatwave is shit

    Or as I tweeted yesterday in response to the #NewNormal astroturfing:

    Our nurses have been drafted again for redeployment to ICU to look after the unvaccinnated on ventilators. This is why #NHS #waitinglists are mushrooming. This sadly is the #NewNormal

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1426244801985384455?s=19

    Friday afternoon a rolling rota of theatre cancellations and redeployment to ICU were announced in my Trust. ICU cannot staff 10 beds because of a mix of vacancies, maternity leave* and long term sickness. We have 21 covid patients on ICU, all unvaccinated. To say Mrs Foxy and colleagues are unhappy about this is cannot be overstated. I expect a number to go off sick for mental health reasons rather than go back.

    *pregnant staff go off on Mat Leave as soon as they can. Seeing pregnant women so poorly with covid tends to do that.
    Meanwhile, the twats in the Hart Group have had their chat logs leaked.
    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1421397013078360064.html

    Claire Craig, Michael Yeadon, Joel Smalley - from what they were writing about to each other and inside their group behind closed doors - these people have gone way further down the looney antivaxxer line than anything I'd ever imagined.

    "I think we need to seed the thought that vaccines cause covid"
    "How do we persuade a parent who believes that their child is vulnerable (for whatever reason) is not vulnerable? How do we persuade parents that the flu shot... should be questioned when we have previously said we thought other vaccinations are safe and effective?"

    Discussing whether it's all a big plot to depopulate the Earth
    Talking about people becoming magnetic. Or about 5G.
    Genuinely expecting mass deaths from vaccination by April this year (notably the failure of that to happen doesn't seem to have slowed them all down) - they assumed that the increased gap between doses was because everyone was dying from the second dose and predicted carnage when the second doses were given out.
    Deliberately trying to play up fears about fertility to try to cut through with the young.

    Wow.

    I thought Claire Craig was a loon, now I find she is actively malevolent
    I had to look her up. Her latest tweet is complaining that it will "take years to undo" the expansion of lab testing: "testing should be reserved for the sick and not carried out in laboratories ... ".
    "... where speed and volume take precedent over quality of results."

    Including all the text does appear to have quite the effect.

    "We have 21 covid patients on ICU, all unvaccinated."

    The Government should be doing more to use this kind of detail to ram the message home on social media: get a frigging vax already you idiots.
    BBC London did a report from a hospital a few weeks ago. They interviewed a bloke who just hadn't got round to getting the vaccine and he said all the right things.

    But it is odd that the media/politicians seem reluctant to do more of this. It seems a no brainer, but I wonder if they just don't want to embarrass those who have ended up in hospital.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 25,987
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Taz said:

    Most people just want to get on with their lives.

    And Brexit is making it more difficult and expensive than it was previously.

    Which is why we will still be talking about it for the next decade (at least)
    My guesstimate is five decades. After all, the heid jobs banged on about it incessantly 1973-present.
    I won't see it in my lifetime and I'm mid 50s. Although I'll almost certainly be killed in a motorcycle accident in the next 5-10 years.

    The most likely long term trajectory is the 6 counties back in via a united Ireland, Scotland fast tracked in to spite England. England and Wales gradually realign into a Norway type relationship with the EU.
    Once Scotland and NI have gone the impetus towards independence will be taken up here in Wales for independence too.
    Nope, Wales is now the most Unionist nation in the UK.

    According to Yougov last year only 39% of Welsh voters wanted independence, compared to 49% of English voters who wanted independence.

    Polls at the same time showed 49% of NI voters wanted a United Ireland and 55% of Scots wanted independence (though now most polls show most Scots still want to stay in the UK)

    https://order-order.com/2020/08/19/wales-is-most-pro-uk-nation/.

    If the UK broke up while England would still be a G20 nation and Scotland could still rejoin the EU, Wales voted for Brexit in 2016 and out of the UK would be completely alone.

    Wales also relies even more on Westminster subsidy than Scotland does
    The figures you are giving in your second sentence don't exist. They are not poll results. They're made up from differtent polls from, presumably, different times and with different questions, and that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check.

    Thank you very much for cluttering this very pleasant Saturday thread with fictional tripe. You're welcome.
    Wrong.

    The English yougov poll and the Scottish yougov poll were just a month apart and asked the same question.

    So as I said Wales is now the most Unionist part of the UK.

    The link to the Guido site works fine.

    Scotland could swap alleged control from Westminster for control from Frankfurt and Berlin and leave the protection of the UK for the protection of the EU, Wales could not as it voted for Brexit too just like England
    I said "that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check." That means the second link inside the first, else I'd have said "That link you give is broken when one tries to check". FYI, that means the link in the Guido website doesn't work. So I can't check further.
    Another Yougov poll last year had 35% of English voters backing independence in June 2020
    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18551749.yougov-poll-half-conservative-voters-england-support-english-independence/

    Yougov last November found only 23% of Welsh voters backing independence however
    https://www.countytimes.co.uk/news/18872232.yougov-survey-votes-welsh-independence/
    Doesn't change the fact you were telling us about data from nonexistent polls. Now I really am off to get on with other stuff.
    I have just given you poll links proving my point
    You haven't - for one thing you haven't given data on Northern Ireland.

    But I forget, NI doesn't exist in the UK any more.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 52,123
    FFS, that gate was wide enough to drive a tractor through. Don’t bother to look at the pitch.

    Buttler hands over his wicket on a plate and now much rests on Mo, who’s been in an out more often than Johnson in a brothel and hasn’t had much first class cricket in the last couple of years.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 57,783
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Taz said:

    Most people just want to get on with their lives.

    And Brexit is making it more difficult and expensive than it was previously.

    Which is why we will still be talking about it for the next decade (at least)
    My guesstimate is five decades. After all, the heid jobs banged on about it incessantly 1973-present.
    I won't see it in my lifetime and I'm mid 50s. Although I'll almost certainly be killed in a motorcycle accident in the next 5-10 years.

    The most likely long term trajectory is the 6 counties back in via a united Ireland, Scotland fast tracked in to spite England. England and Wales gradually realign into a Norway type relationship with the EU.
    Once Scotland and NI have gone the impetus towards independence will be taken up here in Wales for independence too.
    Nope, Wales is now the most Unionist nation in the UK.

    According to Yougov last year only 39% of Welsh voters wanted independence, compared to 49% of English voters who wanted independence.

    Polls at the same time showed 49% of NI voters wanted a United Ireland and 55% of Scots wanted independence (though now most polls show most Scots still want to stay in the UK)

    https://order-order.com/2020/08/19/wales-is-most-pro-uk-nation/.

    If the UK broke up while England would still be a G20 nation and Scotland could still rejoin the EU, Wales voted for Brexit in 2016 and out of the UK would be completely alone.

    Wales also relies even more on Westminster subsidy than Scotland does
    The figures you are giving in your second sentence don't exist. They are not poll results. They're made up from differtent polls from, presumably, different times and with different questions, and that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check.

    Thank you very much for cluttering this very pleasant Saturday thread with fictional tripe. You're welcome.
    Wrong.

    The English yougov poll and the Scottish yougov poll were just a month apart and asked the same question.

    So as I said Wales is now the most Unionist part of the UK.

    The link to the Guido site works fine.

    Scotland could swap alleged control from Westminster for control from Frankfurt and Berlin and leave the protection of the UK for the protection of the EU, Wales could not as it voted for Brexit too just like England
    I said "that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check." That means the second link inside the first, else I'd have said "That link you give is broken when one tries to check". FYI, that means the link in the Guido website doesn't work. So I can't check further.
    Another Yougov poll last year had 35% of English voters backing independence in June 2020
    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18551749.yougov-poll-half-conservative-voters-england-support-english-independence/

    Yougov last November found only 23% of Welsh voters backing independence however
    https://www.countytimes.co.uk/news/18872232.yougov-survey-votes-welsh-independence/
    Doesn't change the fact you were telling us about data from nonexistent polls. Now I really am off to get on with other stuff.
    I have just given you poll links proving my point
    You haven't - for one thing you haven't given data on Northern Ireland.

    But I forget, NI doesn't exist in the UK any more.
    It was there in his earlier comment... "Polls at the same time showed 49% of NI voters wanted a United Ireland".
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 25,987
    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Taz said:

    Most people just want to get on with their lives.

    And Brexit is making it more difficult and expensive than it was previously.

    Which is why we will still be talking about it for the next decade (at least)
    My guesstimate is five decades. After all, the heid jobs banged on about it incessantly 1973-present.
    I won't see it in my lifetime and I'm mid 50s. Although I'll almost certainly be killed in a motorcycle accident in the next 5-10 years.

    The most likely long term trajectory is the 6 counties back in via a united Ireland, Scotland fast tracked in to spite England. England and Wales gradually realign into a Norway type relationship with the EU.
    Once Scotland and NI have gone the impetus towards independence will be taken up here in Wales for independence too.
    Nope, Wales is now the most Unionist nation in the UK.

    According to Yougov last year only 39% of Welsh voters wanted independence, compared to 49% of English voters who wanted independence.

    Polls at the same time showed 49% of NI voters wanted a United Ireland and 55% of Scots wanted independence (though now most polls show most Scots still want to stay in the UK)

    https://order-order.com/2020/08/19/wales-is-most-pro-uk-nation/.

    If the UK broke up while England would still be a G20 nation and Scotland could still rejoin the EU, Wales voted for Brexit in 2016 and out of the UK would be completely alone.

    Wales also relies even more on Westminster subsidy than Scotland does
    The figures you are giving in your second sentence don't exist. They are not poll results. They're made up from differtent polls from, presumably, different times and with different questions, and that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check.

    Thank you very much for cluttering this very pleasant Saturday thread with fictional tripe. You're welcome.
    Wrong.

    The English yougov poll and the Scottish yougov poll were just a month apart and asked the same question.

    So as I said Wales is now the most Unionist part of the UK.

    The link to the Guido site works fine.

    Scotland could swap alleged control from Westminster for control from Frankfurt and Berlin and leave the protection of the UK for the protection of the EU, Wales could not as it voted for Brexit too just like England
    I said "that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check." That means the second link inside the first, else I'd have said "That link you give is broken when one tries to check". FYI, that means the link in the Guido website doesn't work. So I can't check further.
    Another Yougov poll last year had 35% of English voters backing independence in June 2020
    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18551749.yougov-poll-half-conservative-voters-england-support-english-independence/

    Yougov last November found only 23% of Welsh voters backing independence however
    https://www.countytimes.co.uk/news/18872232.yougov-survey-votes-welsh-independence/
    Doesn't change the fact you were telling us about data from nonexistent polls. Now I really am off to get on with other stuff.
    I have just given you poll links proving my point
    You haven't - for one thing you haven't given data on Northern Ireland.

    But I forget, NI doesn't exist in the UK any more.
    It was there in his earlier comment... "Polls at the same time showed 49% of NI voters wanted a United Ireland".
    It's not actually "polls" if you look at the source he gives.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 57,783
    Carnyx said:

    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Taz said:

    Most people just want to get on with their lives.

    And Brexit is making it more difficult and expensive than it was previously.

    Which is why we will still be talking about it for the next decade (at least)
    My guesstimate is five decades. After all, the heid jobs banged on about it incessantly 1973-present.
    I won't see it in my lifetime and I'm mid 50s. Although I'll almost certainly be killed in a motorcycle accident in the next 5-10 years.

    The most likely long term trajectory is the 6 counties back in via a united Ireland, Scotland fast tracked in to spite England. England and Wales gradually realign into a Norway type relationship with the EU.
    Once Scotland and NI have gone the impetus towards independence will be taken up here in Wales for independence too.
    Nope, Wales is now the most Unionist nation in the UK.

    According to Yougov last year only 39% of Welsh voters wanted independence, compared to 49% of English voters who wanted independence.

    Polls at the same time showed 49% of NI voters wanted a United Ireland and 55% of Scots wanted independence (though now most polls show most Scots still want to stay in the UK)

    https://order-order.com/2020/08/19/wales-is-most-pro-uk-nation/.

    If the UK broke up while England would still be a G20 nation and Scotland could still rejoin the EU, Wales voted for Brexit in 2016 and out of the UK would be completely alone.

    Wales also relies even more on Westminster subsidy than Scotland does
    The figures you are giving in your second sentence don't exist. They are not poll results. They're made up from differtent polls from, presumably, different times and with different questions, and that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check.

    Thank you very much for cluttering this very pleasant Saturday thread with fictional tripe. You're welcome.
    Wrong.

    The English yougov poll and the Scottish yougov poll were just a month apart and asked the same question.

    So as I said Wales is now the most Unionist part of the UK.

    The link to the Guido site works fine.

    Scotland could swap alleged control from Westminster for control from Frankfurt and Berlin and leave the protection of the UK for the protection of the EU, Wales could not as it voted for Brexit too just like England
    I said "that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check." That means the second link inside the first, else I'd have said "That link you give is broken when one tries to check". FYI, that means the link in the Guido website doesn't work. So I can't check further.
    Another Yougov poll last year had 35% of English voters backing independence in June 2020
    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18551749.yougov-poll-half-conservative-voters-england-support-english-independence/

    Yougov last November found only 23% of Welsh voters backing independence however
    https://www.countytimes.co.uk/news/18872232.yougov-survey-votes-welsh-independence/
    Doesn't change the fact you were telling us about data from nonexistent polls. Now I really am off to get on with other stuff.
    I have just given you poll links proving my point
    You haven't - for one thing you haven't given data on Northern Ireland.

    But I forget, NI doesn't exist in the UK any more.
    It was there in his earlier comment... "Polls at the same time showed 49% of NI voters wanted a United Ireland".
    It's not actually "polls" if you look at the source he gives.
    They were, you can see the name of the polling company in the figure. This was the NI one, for example.

    https://www.thedetail.tv/articles/a-majority-favour-a-border-poll-on-the-island-of-ireland-in-the-next-10-years
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 102,704
    edited August 2021
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Taz said:

    Most people just want to get on with their lives.

    And Brexit is making it more difficult and expensive than it was previously.

    Which is why we will still be talking about it for the next decade (at least)
    My guesstimate is five decades. After all, the heid jobs banged on about it incessantly 1973-present.
    I won't see it in my lifetime and I'm mid 50s. Although I'll almost certainly be killed in a motorcycle accident in the next 5-10 years.

    The most likely long term trajectory is the 6 counties back in via a united Ireland, Scotland fast tracked in to spite England. England and Wales gradually realign into a Norway type relationship with the EU.
    Once Scotland and NI have gone the impetus towards independence will be taken up here in Wales for independence too.
    Nope, Wales is now the most Unionist nation in the UK.

    According to Yougov last year only 39% of Welsh voters wanted independence, compared to 49% of English voters who wanted independence.

    Polls at the same time showed 49% of NI voters wanted a United Ireland and 55% of Scots wanted independence (though now most polls show most Scots still want to stay in the UK)

    https://order-order.com/2020/08/19/wales-is-most-pro-uk-nation/.

    If the UK broke up while England would still be a G20 nation and Scotland could still rejoin the EU, Wales voted for Brexit in 2016 and out of the UK would be completely alone.

    Wales also relies even more on Westminster subsidy than Scotland does
    The figures you are giving in your second sentence don't exist. They are not poll results. They're made up from differtent polls from, presumably, different times and with different questions, and that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check.

    Thank you very much for cluttering this very pleasant Saturday thread with fictional tripe. You're welcome.
    Wrong.

    The English yougov poll and the Scottish yougov poll were just a month apart and asked the same question.

    So as I said Wales is now the most Unionist part of the UK.

    The link to the Guido site works fine.

    Scotland could swap alleged control from Westminster for control from Frankfurt and Berlin and leave the protection of the UK for the protection of the EU, Wales could not as it voted for Brexit too just like England
    I said "that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check." That means the second link inside the first, else I'd have said "That link you give is broken when one tries to check". FYI, that means the link in the Guido website doesn't work. So I can't check further.
    Another Yougov poll last year had 35% of English voters backing independence in June 2020
    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18551749.yougov-poll-half-conservative-voters-england-support-english-independence/

    Yougov last November found only 23% of Welsh voters backing independence however
    https://www.countytimes.co.uk/news/18872232.yougov-survey-votes-welsh-independence/
    Doesn't change the fact you were telling us about data from nonexistent polls. Now I really am off to get on with other stuff.
    I have just given you poll links proving my point
    You haven't - for one thing you haven't given data on Northern Ireland.

    But I forget, NI doesn't exist in the UK any more.
    The Guido link included NI with the same number wanting a UI on the Lucidtalk poll mentioned as wanted English independence with Yougov.

    So as I said, Wales is the most Unionist party of the UK
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 25,987
    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Taz said:

    Most people just want to get on with their lives.

    And Brexit is making it more difficult and expensive than it was previously.

    Which is why we will still be talking about it for the next decade (at least)
    My guesstimate is five decades. After all, the heid jobs banged on about it incessantly 1973-present.
    I won't see it in my lifetime and I'm mid 50s. Although I'll almost certainly be killed in a motorcycle accident in the next 5-10 years.

    The most likely long term trajectory is the 6 counties back in via a united Ireland, Scotland fast tracked in to spite England. England and Wales gradually realign into a Norway type relationship with the EU.
    Once Scotland and NI have gone the impetus towards independence will be taken up here in Wales for independence too.
    Nope, Wales is now the most Unionist nation in the UK.

    According to Yougov last year only 39% of Welsh voters wanted independence, compared to 49% of English voters who wanted independence.

    Polls at the same time showed 49% of NI voters wanted a United Ireland and 55% of Scots wanted independence (though now most polls show most Scots still want to stay in the UK)

    https://order-order.com/2020/08/19/wales-is-most-pro-uk-nation/.

    If the UK broke up while England would still be a G20 nation and Scotland could still rejoin the EU, Wales voted for Brexit in 2016 and out of the UK would be completely alone.

    Wales also relies even more on Westminster subsidy than Scotland does
    The figures you are giving in your second sentence don't exist. They are not poll results. They're made up from differtent polls from, presumably, different times and with different questions, and that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check.

    Thank you very much for cluttering this very pleasant Saturday thread with fictional tripe. You're welcome.
    Wrong.

    The English yougov poll and the Scottish yougov poll were just a month apart and asked the same question.

    So as I said Wales is now the most Unionist part of the UK.

    The link to the Guido site works fine.

    Scotland could swap alleged control from Westminster for control from Frankfurt and Berlin and leave the protection of the UK for the protection of the EU, Wales could not as it voted for Brexit too just like England
    I said "that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check." That means the second link inside the first, else I'd have said "That link you give is broken when one tries to check". FYI, that means the link in the Guido website doesn't work. So I can't check further.
    Another Yougov poll last year had 35% of English voters backing independence in June 2020
    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18551749.yougov-poll-half-conservative-voters-england-support-english-independence/

    Yougov last November found only 23% of Welsh voters backing independence however
    https://www.countytimes.co.uk/news/18872232.yougov-survey-votes-welsh-independence/
    Doesn't change the fact you were telling us about data from nonexistent polls. Now I really am off to get on with other stuff.
    I have just given you poll links proving my point
    You haven't - for one thing you haven't given data on Northern Ireland.

    But I forget, NI doesn't exist in the UK any more.
    It was there in his earlier comment... "Polls at the same time showed 49% of NI voters wanted a United Ireland".
    It's not actually "polls" if you look at the source he gives.
    They were, you can see the name of the polling company in the figure. This was the NI one, for example.

    https://www.thedetail.tv/articles/a-majority-favour-a-border-poll-on-the-island-of-ireland-in-the-next-10-years
    The figure he gave was 49% (obs without DKs, about right) and the source he gave for that was this which is not a poll but some sort of aggregate of different polls at different times (I got muddled and corrected 2nd to 3rd sentence):

    https://order-order.com/2020/08/19/wales-is-most-pro-uk-nation/

    HYUFD was falsely claiming they were all at the same time and by implication also the same company and methodology.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 25,987
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Taz said:

    Most people just want to get on with their lives.

    And Brexit is making it more difficult and expensive than it was previously.

    Which is why we will still be talking about it for the next decade (at least)
    My guesstimate is five decades. After all, the heid jobs banged on about it incessantly 1973-present.
    I won't see it in my lifetime and I'm mid 50s. Although I'll almost certainly be killed in a motorcycle accident in the next 5-10 years.

    The most likely long term trajectory is the 6 counties back in via a united Ireland, Scotland fast tracked in to spite England. England and Wales gradually realign into a Norway type relationship with the EU.
    Once Scotland and NI have gone the impetus towards independence will be taken up here in Wales for independence too.
    Nope, Wales is now the most Unionist nation in the UK.

    According to Yougov last year only 39% of Welsh voters wanted independence, compared to 49% of English voters who wanted independence.

    Polls at the same time showed 49% of NI voters wanted a United Ireland and 55% of Scots wanted independence (though now most polls show most Scots still want to stay in the UK)

    https://order-order.com/2020/08/19/wales-is-most-pro-uk-nation/.

    If the UK broke up while England would still be a G20 nation and Scotland could still rejoin the EU, Wales voted for Brexit in 2016 and out of the UK would be completely alone.

    Wales also relies even more on Westminster subsidy than Scotland does
    The figures you are giving in your second sentence don't exist. They are not poll results. They're made up from differtent polls from, presumably, different times and with different questions, and that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check.

    Thank you very much for cluttering this very pleasant Saturday thread with fictional tripe. You're welcome.
    Wrong.

    The English yougov poll and the Scottish yougov poll were just a month apart and asked the same question.

    So as I said Wales is now the most Unionist part of the UK.

    The link to the Guido site works fine.

    Scotland could swap alleged control from Westminster for control from Frankfurt and Berlin and leave the protection of the UK for the protection of the EU, Wales could not as it voted for Brexit too just like England
    I said "that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check." That means the second link inside the first, else I'd have said "That link you give is broken when one tries to check". FYI, that means the link in the Guido website doesn't work. So I can't check further.
    Another Yougov poll last year had 35% of English voters backing independence in June 2020
    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18551749.yougov-poll-half-conservative-voters-england-support-english-independence/

    Yougov last November found only 23% of Welsh voters backing independence however
    https://www.countytimes.co.uk/news/18872232.yougov-survey-votes-welsh-independence/
    Doesn't change the fact you were telling us about data from nonexistent polls. Now I really am off to get on with other stuff.
    I have just given you poll links proving my point
    You haven't - for one thing you haven't given data on Northern Ireland.

    But I forget, NI doesn't exist in the UK any more.
    The Guido link included NI with the same number wanting a UI on the Lucidtalk poll mentioned as wanted English independence with Yougov.

    So as I said, Wales is the most Unionist party of the UK
    You said, polls at trhe same time. I've never heard of six months in politics being "at the same time."
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 25,987
    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Taz said:

    Most people just want to get on with their lives.

    And Brexit is making it more difficult and expensive than it was previously.

    Which is why we will still be talking about it for the next decade (at least)
    My guesstimate is five decades. After all, the heid jobs banged on about it incessantly 1973-present.
    I won't see it in my lifetime and I'm mid 50s. Although I'll almost certainly be killed in a motorcycle accident in the next 5-10 years.

    The most likely long term trajectory is the 6 counties back in via a united Ireland, Scotland fast tracked in to spite England. England and Wales gradually realign into a Norway type relationship with the EU.
    Once Scotland and NI have gone the impetus towards independence will be taken up here in Wales for independence too.
    Nope, Wales is now the most Unionist nation in the UK.

    According to Yougov last year only 39% of Welsh voters wanted independence, compared to 49% of English voters who wanted independence.

    Polls at the same time showed 49% of NI voters wanted a United Ireland and 55% of Scots wanted independence (though now most polls show most Scots still want to stay in the UK)

    https://order-order.com/2020/08/19/wales-is-most-pro-uk-nation/.

    If the UK broke up while England would still be a G20 nation and Scotland could still rejoin the EU, Wales voted for Brexit in 2016 and out of the UK would be completely alone.

    Wales also relies even more on Westminster subsidy than Scotland does
    The figures you are giving in your second sentence don't exist. They are not poll results. They're made up from differtent polls from, presumably, different times and with different questions, and that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check.

    Thank you very much for cluttering this very pleasant Saturday thread with fictional tripe. You're welcome.
    Wrong.

    The English yougov poll and the Scottish yougov poll were just a month apart and asked the same question.

    So as I said Wales is now the most Unionist part of the UK.

    The link to the Guido site works fine.

    Scotland could swap alleged control from Westminster for control from Frankfurt and Berlin and leave the protection of the UK for the protection of the EU, Wales could not as it voted for Brexit too just like England
    I said "that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check." That means the second link inside the first, else I'd have said "That link you give is broken when one tries to check". FYI, that means the link in the Guido website doesn't work. So I can't check further.
    Another Yougov poll last year had 35% of English voters backing independence in June 2020
    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18551749.yougov-poll-half-conservative-voters-england-support-english-independence/

    Yougov last November found only 23% of Welsh voters backing independence however
    https://www.countytimes.co.uk/news/18872232.yougov-survey-votes-welsh-independence/
    Doesn't change the fact you were telling us about data from nonexistent polls. Now I really am off to get on with other stuff.
    I have just given you poll links proving my point
    You haven't - for one thing you haven't given data on Northern Ireland.

    But I forget, NI doesn't exist in the UK any more.
    It was there in his earlier comment... "Polls at the same time showed 49% of NI voters wanted a United Ireland".
    It's not actually "polls" if you look at the source he gives.
    They were, you can see the name of the polling company in the figure. This was the NI one, for example.

    https://www.thedetail.tv/articles/a-majority-favour-a-border-poll-on-the-island-of-ireland-in-the-next-10-years
    (but thanks for trying to help)
  • RobDRobD Posts: 57,783
    Carnyx said:

    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Taz said:

    Most people just want to get on with their lives.

    And Brexit is making it more difficult and expensive than it was previously.

    Which is why we will still be talking about it for the next decade (at least)
    My guesstimate is five decades. After all, the heid jobs banged on about it incessantly 1973-present.
    I won't see it in my lifetime and I'm mid 50s. Although I'll almost certainly be killed in a motorcycle accident in the next 5-10 years.

    The most likely long term trajectory is the 6 counties back in via a united Ireland, Scotland fast tracked in to spite England. England and Wales gradually realign into a Norway type relationship with the EU.
    Once Scotland and NI have gone the impetus towards independence will be taken up here in Wales for independence too.
    Nope, Wales is now the most Unionist nation in the UK.

    According to Yougov last year only 39% of Welsh voters wanted independence, compared to 49% of English voters who wanted independence.

    Polls at the same time showed 49% of NI voters wanted a United Ireland and 55% of Scots wanted independence (though now most polls show most Scots still want to stay in the UK)

    https://order-order.com/2020/08/19/wales-is-most-pro-uk-nation/.

    If the UK broke up while England would still be a G20 nation and Scotland could still rejoin the EU, Wales voted for Brexit in 2016 and out of the UK would be completely alone.

    Wales also relies even more on Westminster subsidy than Scotland does
    The figures you are giving in your second sentence don't exist. They are not poll results. They're made up from differtent polls from, presumably, different times and with different questions, and that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check.

    Thank you very much for cluttering this very pleasant Saturday thread with fictional tripe. You're welcome.
    Wrong.

    The English yougov poll and the Scottish yougov poll were just a month apart and asked the same question.

    So as I said Wales is now the most Unionist part of the UK.

    The link to the Guido site works fine.

    Scotland could swap alleged control from Westminster for control from Frankfurt and Berlin and leave the protection of the UK for the protection of the EU, Wales could not as it voted for Brexit too just like England
    I said "that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check." That means the second link inside the first, else I'd have said "That link you give is broken when one tries to check". FYI, that means the link in the Guido website doesn't work. So I can't check further.
    Another Yougov poll last year had 35% of English voters backing independence in June 2020
    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18551749.yougov-poll-half-conservative-voters-england-support-english-independence/

    Yougov last November found only 23% of Welsh voters backing independence however
    https://www.countytimes.co.uk/news/18872232.yougov-survey-votes-welsh-independence/
    Doesn't change the fact you were telling us about data from nonexistent polls. Now I really am off to get on with other stuff.
    I have just given you poll links proving my point
    You haven't - for one thing you haven't given data on Northern Ireland.

    But I forget, NI doesn't exist in the UK any more.
    It was there in his earlier comment... "Polls at the same time showed 49% of NI voters wanted a United Ireland".
    It's not actually "polls" if you look at the source he gives.
    They were, you can see the name of the polling company in the figure. This was the NI one, for example.

    https://www.thedetail.tv/articles/a-majority-favour-a-border-poll-on-the-island-of-ireland-in-the-next-10-years
    The figure he gave was 49% (obs without DKs, about right) and the source he gave for that was this which is not a poll but some sort of aggregate of different polls at different times (I got muddled and corrected 2nd to 3rd sentence):

    https://order-order.com/2020/08/19/wales-is-most-pro-uk-nation/

    HYUFD was falsely claiming they were all at the same time and by implication also the same company and methodology.
    The link shows it isn't an aggregate though, it's a single poll. As for them not being taken at the same time, I don't think that's really important. These things don't tend to move that fast.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 30,520

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Snobbery is a very British vice - but according to the author of a new book it is no longer about looking down on people for having the wrong accent or manners.

    The "new snobbery" is a form of condescension practised by university-educated "progressives" - directed at people they consider ignorant and bigoted, David Skelton argues.

    He believes it is the biggest fault line in British politics, and could lead to the Conservative Party staying in power for the foreseeable future."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58186519

    An interesting article. Four things the English dislike especially; theory of any kind, public intellectuals, class envy and hypocrisy.

    Yes, England is riddled with class, and hardly anyone cares. Yes, Boris and Cameron went to Eton and their sons will go somewhere similar. Most people don't care because they don't want that for themselves and aren't envious enough to stop others and are happy with the fact of difference.

    The Tories manage to combine the illusion of lack of theory with a disdain for pseudo intellectuals, and play on the lack of class envy coupled with apparent Labour hypocrisy in a way which ensures that their coalition of support is more stable than Labour's. South Holland and Hartlepool have more in common than Liverpool Walton and Putney
    How come these simple, good hearted folk who want a quiet life colonized half the planet not so very long ago?
    They were the ones who left.
    The Leavers. 🙂

    Is this the Millenials smiley face or the Gen Z one? 🙂

    Or maybe one of each?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 57,783
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Taz said:

    Most people just want to get on with their lives.

    And Brexit is making it more difficult and expensive than it was previously.

    Which is why we will still be talking about it for the next decade (at least)
    My guesstimate is five decades. After all, the heid jobs banged on about it incessantly 1973-present.
    I won't see it in my lifetime and I'm mid 50s. Although I'll almost certainly be killed in a motorcycle accident in the next 5-10 years.

    The most likely long term trajectory is the 6 counties back in via a united Ireland, Scotland fast tracked in to spite England. England and Wales gradually realign into a Norway type relationship with the EU.
    Once Scotland and NI have gone the impetus towards independence will be taken up here in Wales for independence too.
    Nope, Wales is now the most Unionist nation in the UK.

    According to Yougov last year only 39% of Welsh voters wanted independence, compared to 49% of English voters who wanted independence.

    Polls at the same time showed 49% of NI voters wanted a United Ireland and 55% of Scots wanted independence (though now most polls show most Scots still want to stay in the UK)

    https://order-order.com/2020/08/19/wales-is-most-pro-uk-nation/.

    If the UK broke up while England would still be a G20 nation and Scotland could still rejoin the EU, Wales voted for Brexit in 2016 and out of the UK would be completely alone.

    Wales also relies even more on Westminster subsidy than Scotland does
    The figures you are giving in your second sentence don't exist. They are not poll results. They're made up from differtent polls from, presumably, different times and with different questions, and that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check.

    Thank you very much for cluttering this very pleasant Saturday thread with fictional tripe. You're welcome.
    Wrong.

    The English yougov poll and the Scottish yougov poll were just a month apart and asked the same question.

    So as I said Wales is now the most Unionist part of the UK.

    The link to the Guido site works fine.

    Scotland could swap alleged control from Westminster for control from Frankfurt and Berlin and leave the protection of the UK for the protection of the EU, Wales could not as it voted for Brexit too just like England
    I said "that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check." That means the second link inside the first, else I'd have said "That link you give is broken when one tries to check". FYI, that means the link in the Guido website doesn't work. So I can't check further.
    Another Yougov poll last year had 35% of English voters backing independence in June 2020
    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18551749.yougov-poll-half-conservative-voters-england-support-english-independence/

    Yougov last November found only 23% of Welsh voters backing independence however
    https://www.countytimes.co.uk/news/18872232.yougov-survey-votes-welsh-independence/
    Doesn't change the fact you were telling us about data from nonexistent polls. Now I really am off to get on with other stuff.
    I have just given you poll links proving my point
    You haven't - for one thing you haven't given data on Northern Ireland.

    But I forget, NI doesn't exist in the UK any more.
    The Guido link included NI with the same number wanting a UI on the Lucidtalk poll mentioned as wanted English independence with Yougov.

    So as I said, Wales is the most Unionist party of the UK
    You said, polls at trhe same time. I've never heard of six months in politics being "at the same time."
    Look at the NI poll by the same company in October, basically unchanged.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 25,987
    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Taz said:

    Most people just want to get on with their lives.

    And Brexit is making it more difficult and expensive than it was previously.

    Which is why we will still be talking about it for the next decade (at least)
    My guesstimate is five decades. After all, the heid jobs banged on about it incessantly 1973-present.
    I won't see it in my lifetime and I'm mid 50s. Although I'll almost certainly be killed in a motorcycle accident in the next 5-10 years.

    The most likely long term trajectory is the 6 counties back in via a united Ireland, Scotland fast tracked in to spite England. England and Wales gradually realign into a Norway type relationship with the EU.
    Once Scotland and NI have gone the impetus towards independence will be taken up here in Wales for independence too.
    Nope, Wales is now the most Unionist nation in the UK.

    According to Yougov last year only 39% of Welsh voters wanted independence, compared to 49% of English voters who wanted independence.

    Polls at the same time showed 49% of NI voters wanted a United Ireland and 55% of Scots wanted independence (though now most polls show most Scots still want to stay in the UK)

    https://order-order.com/2020/08/19/wales-is-most-pro-uk-nation/.

    If the UK broke up while England would still be a G20 nation and Scotland could still rejoin the EU, Wales voted for Brexit in 2016 and out of the UK would be completely alone.

    Wales also relies even more on Westminster subsidy than Scotland does
    The figures you are giving in your second sentence don't exist. They are not poll results. They're made up from differtent polls from, presumably, different times and with different questions, and that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check.

    Thank you very much for cluttering this very pleasant Saturday thread with fictional tripe. You're welcome.
    Wrong.

    The English yougov poll and the Scottish yougov poll were just a month apart and asked the same question.

    So as I said Wales is now the most Unionist part of the UK.

    The link to the Guido site works fine.

    Scotland could swap alleged control from Westminster for control from Frankfurt and Berlin and leave the protection of the UK for the protection of the EU, Wales could not as it voted for Brexit too just like England
    I said "that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check." That means the second link inside the first, else I'd have said "That link you give is broken when one tries to check". FYI, that means the link in the Guido website doesn't work. So I can't check further.
    Another Yougov poll last year had 35% of English voters backing independence in June 2020
    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18551749.yougov-poll-half-conservative-voters-england-support-english-independence/

    Yougov last November found only 23% of Welsh voters backing independence however
    https://www.countytimes.co.uk/news/18872232.yougov-survey-votes-welsh-independence/
    Doesn't change the fact you were telling us about data from nonexistent polls. Now I really am off to get on with other stuff.
    I have just given you poll links proving my point
    You haven't - for one thing you haven't given data on Northern Ireland.

    But I forget, NI doesn't exist in the UK any more.
    It was there in his earlier comment... "Polls at the same time showed 49% of NI voters wanted a United Ireland".
    It's not actually "polls" if you look at the source he gives.
    They were, you can see the name of the polling company in the figure. This was the NI one, for example.

    https://www.thedetail.tv/articles/a-majority-favour-a-border-poll-on-the-island-of-ireland-in-the-next-10-years
    The figure he gave was 49% (obs without DKs, about right) and the source he gave for that was this which is not a poll but some sort of aggregate of different polls at different times (I got muddled and corrected 2nd to 3rd sentence):

    https://order-order.com/2020/08/19/wales-is-most-pro-uk-nation/

    HYUFD was falsely claiming they were all at the same time and by implication also the same company and methodology.
    The link shows it isn't an aggregate though, it's a single poll. As for them not being taken at the same time, I don't think that's really important. These things don't tend to move that fast.
    For each nation, yes, but the four together - HYUFD was comparing apples in February with mangosteens in August. I wouldn't accept this in a serious research paper and I don't see why we should have to be expected to accept it without half a kilo of salt.

    And on your constructively offered point, I really am not so sure. For instance with the covid vaccine rollout, or the Salmond trial, both being claimed to be highly crucial by the PBTories. Or indeed the ongoing development of Brexit, especially in NI. That last should certainly impact NI to some extent.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 25,987
    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Taz said:

    Most people just want to get on with their lives.

    And Brexit is making it more difficult and expensive than it was previously.

    Which is why we will still be talking about it for the next decade (at least)
    My guesstimate is five decades. After all, the heid jobs banged on about it incessantly 1973-present.
    I won't see it in my lifetime and I'm mid 50s. Although I'll almost certainly be killed in a motorcycle accident in the next 5-10 years.

    The most likely long term trajectory is the 6 counties back in via a united Ireland, Scotland fast tracked in to spite England. England and Wales gradually realign into a Norway type relationship with the EU.
    Once Scotland and NI have gone the impetus towards independence will be taken up here in Wales for independence too.
    Nope, Wales is now the most Unionist nation in the UK.

    According to Yougov last year only 39% of Welsh voters wanted independence, compared to 49% of English voters who wanted independence.

    Polls at the same time showed 49% of NI voters wanted a United Ireland and 55% of Scots wanted independence (though now most polls show most Scots still want to stay in the UK)

    https://order-order.com/2020/08/19/wales-is-most-pro-uk-nation/.

    If the UK broke up while England would still be a G20 nation and Scotland could still rejoin the EU, Wales voted for Brexit in 2016 and out of the UK would be completely alone.

    Wales also relies even more on Westminster subsidy than Scotland does
    The figures you are giving in your second sentence don't exist. They are not poll results. They're made up from differtent polls from, presumably, different times and with different questions, and that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check.

    Thank you very much for cluttering this very pleasant Saturday thread with fictional tripe. You're welcome.
    Wrong.

    The English yougov poll and the Scottish yougov poll were just a month apart and asked the same question.

    So as I said Wales is now the most Unionist part of the UK.

    The link to the Guido site works fine.

    Scotland could swap alleged control from Westminster for control from Frankfurt and Berlin and leave the protection of the UK for the protection of the EU, Wales could not as it voted for Brexit too just like England
    I said "that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check." That means the second link inside the first, else I'd have said "That link you give is broken when one tries to check". FYI, that means the link in the Guido website doesn't work. So I can't check further.
    Another Yougov poll last year had 35% of English voters backing independence in June 2020
    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18551749.yougov-poll-half-conservative-voters-england-support-english-independence/

    Yougov last November found only 23% of Welsh voters backing independence however
    https://www.countytimes.co.uk/news/18872232.yougov-survey-votes-welsh-independence/
    Doesn't change the fact you were telling us about data from nonexistent polls. Now I really am off to get on with other stuff.
    I have just given you poll links proving my point
    You haven't - for one thing you haven't given data on Northern Ireland.

    But I forget, NI doesn't exist in the UK any more.
    The Guido link included NI with the same number wanting a UI on the Lucidtalk poll mentioned as wanted English independence with Yougov.

    So as I said, Wales is the most Unionist party of the UK
    You said, polls at trhe same time. I've never heard of six months in politics being "at the same time."
    Look at the NI poll by the same company in October, basically unchanged.
    In this case, perhaps, but it is not an assumption I would ever make.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 53,485
    algarkirk said:

    MaxPB said:

    What a mealy mouthed bit of nonsense. More lawyerly ways of saying not very much at all.
    Quite. And two things that aren't being said in the west very much: It isn't possible that after 20 years of intervention the Taliban can quickly take over a large country that has its own army unless it has massive support within its own borders. And Afghans who want a more western liberal society (as I would) seem not to know even yet that it is not the intensity of your values that will preserve them but the willingness of your army and your young men to fight and die for that cause. It's a 1940 choice.

    Thirdly; who is arming the Taliban?

    Isn't the answer to your last question, Pakistan?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 102,704
    Carnyx said:

    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Taz said:

    Most people just want to get on with their lives.

    And Brexit is making it more difficult and expensive than it was previously.

    Which is why we will still be talking about it for the next decade (at least)
    My guesstimate is five decades. After all, the heid jobs banged on about it incessantly 1973-present.
    I won't see it in my lifetime and I'm mid 50s. Although I'll almost certainly be killed in a motorcycle accident in the next 5-10 years.

    The most likely long term trajectory is the 6 counties back in via a united Ireland, Scotland fast tracked in to spite England. England and Wales gradually realign into a Norway type relationship with the EU.
    Once Scotland and NI have gone the impetus towards independence will be taken up here in Wales for independence too.
    Nope, Wales is now the most Unionist nation in the UK.

    According to Yougov last year only 39% of Welsh voters wanted independence, compared to 49% of English voters who wanted independence.

    Polls at the same time showed 49% of NI voters wanted a United Ireland and 55% of Scots wanted independence (though now most polls show most Scots still want to stay in the UK)

    https://order-order.com/2020/08/19/wales-is-most-pro-uk-nation/.

    If the UK broke up while England would still be a G20 nation and Scotland could still rejoin the EU, Wales voted for Brexit in 2016 and out of the UK would be completely alone.

    Wales also relies even more on Westminster subsidy than Scotland does
    The figures you are giving in your second sentence don't exist. They are not poll results. They're made up from differtent polls from, presumably, different times and with different questions, and that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check.

    Thank you very much for cluttering this very pleasant Saturday thread with fictional tripe. You're welcome.
    Wrong.

    The English yougov poll and the Scottish yougov poll were just a month apart and asked the same question.

    So as I said Wales is now the most Unionist part of the UK.

    The link to the Guido site works fine.

    Scotland could swap alleged control from Westminster for control from Frankfurt and Berlin and leave the protection of the UK for the protection of the EU, Wales could not as it voted for Brexit too just like England
    I said "that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check." That means the second link inside the first, else I'd have said "That link you give is broken when one tries to check". FYI, that means the link in the Guido website doesn't work. So I can't check further.
    Another Yougov poll last year had 35% of English voters backing independence in June 2020
    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18551749.yougov-poll-half-conservative-voters-england-support-english-independence/

    Yougov last November found only 23% of Welsh voters backing independence however
    https://www.countytimes.co.uk/news/18872232.yougov-survey-votes-welsh-independence/
    Doesn't change the fact you were telling us about data from nonexistent polls. Now I really am off to get on with other stuff.
    I have just given you poll links proving my point
    You haven't - for one thing you haven't given data on Northern Ireland.

    But I forget, NI doesn't exist in the UK any more.
    It was there in his earlier comment... "Polls at the same time showed 49% of NI voters wanted a United Ireland".
    It's not actually "polls" if you look at the source he gives.
    They were, you can see the name of the polling company in the figure. This was the NI one, for example.

    https://www.thedetail.tv/articles/a-majority-favour-a-border-poll-on-the-island-of-ireland-in-the-next-10-years
    The figure he gave was 49% (obs without DKs, about right) and the source he gave for that was this which is not a poll but some sort of aggregate of different polls at different times (I got muddled and corrected 2nd to 3rd sentence):

    https://order-order.com/2020/08/19/wales-is-most-pro-uk-nation/

    HYUFD was falsely claiming they were all at the same time and by implication also the same company and methodology.
    So show me any NI poll then (ie for all of NI not just Unionist dominated areas) showing fewer NI voters want a United Ireland than Welsh voters want independence?

  • RobDRobD Posts: 57,783
    Carnyx said:

    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Taz said:

    Most people just want to get on with their lives.

    And Brexit is making it more difficult and expensive than it was previously.

    Which is why we will still be talking about it for the next decade (at least)
    My guesstimate is five decades. After all, the heid jobs banged on about it incessantly 1973-present.
    I won't see it in my lifetime and I'm mid 50s. Although I'll almost certainly be killed in a motorcycle accident in the next 5-10 years.

    The most likely long term trajectory is the 6 counties back in via a united Ireland, Scotland fast tracked in to spite England. England and Wales gradually realign into a Norway type relationship with the EU.
    Once Scotland and NI have gone the impetus towards independence will be taken up here in Wales for independence too.
    Nope, Wales is now the most Unionist nation in the UK.

    According to Yougov last year only 39% of Welsh voters wanted independence, compared to 49% of English voters who wanted independence.

    Polls at the same time showed 49% of NI voters wanted a United Ireland and 55% of Scots wanted independence (though now most polls show most Scots still want to stay in the UK)

    https://order-order.com/2020/08/19/wales-is-most-pro-uk-nation/.

    If the UK broke up while England would still be a G20 nation and Scotland could still rejoin the EU, Wales voted for Brexit in 2016 and out of the UK would be completely alone.

    Wales also relies even more on Westminster subsidy than Scotland does
    The figures you are giving in your second sentence don't exist. They are not poll results. They're made up from differtent polls from, presumably, different times and with different questions, and that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check.

    Thank you very much for cluttering this very pleasant Saturday thread with fictional tripe. You're welcome.
    Wrong.

    The English yougov poll and the Scottish yougov poll were just a month apart and asked the same question.

    So as I said Wales is now the most Unionist part of the UK.

    The link to the Guido site works fine.

    Scotland could swap alleged control from Westminster for control from Frankfurt and Berlin and leave the protection of the UK for the protection of the EU, Wales could not as it voted for Brexit too just like England
    I said "that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check." That means the second link inside the first, else I'd have said "That link you give is broken when one tries to check". FYI, that means the link in the Guido website doesn't work. So I can't check further.
    Another Yougov poll last year had 35% of English voters backing independence in June 2020
    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18551749.yougov-poll-half-conservative-voters-england-support-english-independence/

    Yougov last November found only 23% of Welsh voters backing independence however
    https://www.countytimes.co.uk/news/18872232.yougov-survey-votes-welsh-independence/
    Doesn't change the fact you were telling us about data from nonexistent polls. Now I really am off to get on with other stuff.
    I have just given you poll links proving my point
    You haven't - for one thing you haven't given data on Northern Ireland.

    But I forget, NI doesn't exist in the UK any more.
    It was there in his earlier comment... "Polls at the same time showed 49% of NI voters wanted a United Ireland".
    It's not actually "polls" if you look at the source he gives.
    They were, you can see the name of the polling company in the figure. This was the NI one, for example.

    https://www.thedetail.tv/articles/a-majority-favour-a-border-poll-on-the-island-of-ireland-in-the-next-10-years
    The figure he gave was 49% (obs without DKs, about right) and the source he gave for that was this which is not a poll but some sort of aggregate of different polls at different times (I got muddled and corrected 2nd to 3rd sentence):

    https://order-order.com/2020/08/19/wales-is-most-pro-uk-nation/

    HYUFD was falsely claiming they were all at the same time and by implication also the same company and methodology.
    The link shows it isn't an aggregate though, it's a single poll. As for them not being taken at the same time, I don't think that's really important. These things don't tend to move that fast.
    For each nation, yes, but the four together - HYUFD was comparing apples in February with mangosteens in August. I wouldn't accept this in a serious research paper and I don't see why we should have to be expected to accept it without half a kilo of salt.

    And on your constructively offered point, I really am not so sure. For instance with the covid vaccine rollout, or the Salmond trial, both being claimed to be highly crucial by the PBTories. Or indeed the ongoing development of Brexit, especially in NI. That last should certainly impact NI to some extent.

    You might have a point of the polling on this issue was fluctuating wildly, but it isn't.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 30,520
    edited August 2021
    Aslan said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Snobbery is a very British vice - but according to the author of a new book it is no longer about looking down on people for having the wrong accent or manners.

    The "new snobbery" is a form of condescension practised by university-educated "progressives" - directed at people they consider ignorant and bigoted, David Skelton argues.

    He believes it is the biggest fault line in British politics, and could lead to the Conservative Party staying in power for the foreseeable future."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58186519

    An interesting article. Four things the English dislike especially; theory of any kind, public intellectuals, class envy and hypocrisy.

    Yes, England is riddled with class, and hardly anyone cares. Yes, Boris and Cameron went to Eton and their sons will go somewhere similar. Most people don't care because they don't want that for themselves and aren't envious enough to stop others and are happy with the fact of difference.

    The Tories manage to combine the illusion of lack of theory with a disdain for pseudo intellectuals, and play on the lack of class envy coupled with apparent Labour hypocrisy in a way which ensures that their coalition of support is more stable than Labour's. South Holland and Hartlepool have more in common than Liverpool Walton and Putney
    How come these simple, good hearted folk who want a quiet life colonized half the planet not so very long ago?
    They didn't? Only a tiny share of the British population were involved in running the Empire. And they were disproportionately Scots and Irish.
    Ok different tack then.

    "Free movement was fine for getting cheap plumbers out to big houses in London or Lucinda's gap year in Tuscany. That's why those types liked it."

    Can a country which has just voted for Brexit, with the above sentiment prominent in the mix, be described with a straight face as "averse to class envy"?

    Can it bollocks like.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 25,987
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Taz said:

    Most people just want to get on with their lives.

    And Brexit is making it more difficult and expensive than it was previously.

    Which is why we will still be talking about it for the next decade (at least)
    My guesstimate is five decades. After all, the heid jobs banged on about it incessantly 1973-present.
    I won't see it in my lifetime and I'm mid 50s. Although I'll almost certainly be killed in a motorcycle accident in the next 5-10 years.

    The most likely long term trajectory is the 6 counties back in via a united Ireland, Scotland fast tracked in to spite England. England and Wales gradually realign into a Norway type relationship with the EU.
    Once Scotland and NI have gone the impetus towards independence will be taken up here in Wales for independence too.
    Nope, Wales is now the most Unionist nation in the UK.

    According to Yougov last year only 39% of Welsh voters wanted independence, compared to 49% of English voters who wanted independence.

    Polls at the same time showed 49% of NI voters wanted a United Ireland and 55% of Scots wanted independence (though now most polls show most Scots still want to stay in the UK)

    https://order-order.com/2020/08/19/wales-is-most-pro-uk-nation/.

    If the UK broke up while England would still be a G20 nation and Scotland could still rejoin the EU, Wales voted for Brexit in 2016 and out of the UK would be completely alone.

    Wales also relies even more on Westminster subsidy than Scotland does
    The figures you are giving in your second sentence don't exist. They are not poll results. They're made up from differtent polls from, presumably, different times and with different questions, and that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check.

    Thank you very much for cluttering this very pleasant Saturday thread with fictional tripe. You're welcome.
    Wrong.

    The English yougov poll and the Scottish yougov poll were just a month apart and asked the same question.

    So as I said Wales is now the most Unionist part of the UK.

    The link to the Guido site works fine.

    Scotland could swap alleged control from Westminster for control from Frankfurt and Berlin and leave the protection of the UK for the protection of the EU, Wales could not as it voted for Brexit too just like England
    I said "that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check." That means the second link inside the first, else I'd have said "That link you give is broken when one tries to check". FYI, that means the link in the Guido website doesn't work. So I can't check further.
    Another Yougov poll last year had 35% of English voters backing independence in June 2020
    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18551749.yougov-poll-half-conservative-voters-england-support-english-independence/

    Yougov last November found only 23% of Welsh voters backing independence however
    https://www.countytimes.co.uk/news/18872232.yougov-survey-votes-welsh-independence/
    Doesn't change the fact you were telling us about data from nonexistent polls. Now I really am off to get on with other stuff.
    I have just given you poll links proving my point
    You haven't - for one thing you haven't given data on Northern Ireland.

    But I forget, NI doesn't exist in the UK any more.
    It was there in his earlier comment... "Polls at the same time showed 49% of NI voters wanted a United Ireland".
    It's not actually "polls" if you look at the source he gives.
    They were, you can see the name of the polling company in the figure. This was the NI one, for example.

    https://www.thedetail.tv/articles/a-majority-favour-a-border-poll-on-the-island-of-ireland-in-the-next-10-years
    The figure he gave was 49% (obs without DKs, about right) and the source he gave for that was this which is not a poll but some sort of aggregate of different polls at different times (I got muddled and corrected 2nd to 3rd sentence):

    https://order-order.com/2020/08/19/wales-is-most-pro-uk-nation/

    HYUFD was falsely claiming they were all at the same time and by implication also the same company and methodology.
    So show me any NI poll then (ie for all of NI not just Unionist dominated areas) showing fewer NI voters want a United Ireland than Welsh voters want independence?

    You wewre making the assertion and it is up to you to prove it with polls in all four nations by the same company at the same time with the same questions.

    Otherwise you are trying to prove that 10 apples = 11 bananas (bendy) plus 5 imaginary carrots and some 6 month old pears.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 57,783
    kinabalu said:

    Aslan said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Snobbery is a very British vice - but according to the author of a new book it is no longer about looking down on people for having the wrong accent or manners.

    The "new snobbery" is a form of condescension practised by university-educated "progressives" - directed at people they consider ignorant and bigoted, David Skelton argues.

    He believes it is the biggest fault line in British politics, and could lead to the Conservative Party staying in power for the foreseeable future."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58186519

    An interesting article. Four things the English dislike especially; theory of any kind, public intellectuals, class envy and hypocrisy.

    Yes, England is riddled with class, and hardly anyone cares. Yes, Boris and Cameron went to Eton and their sons will go somewhere similar. Most people don't care because they don't want that for themselves and aren't envious enough to stop others and are happy with the fact of difference.

    The Tories manage to combine the illusion of lack of theory with a disdain for pseudo intellectuals, and play on the lack of class envy coupled with apparent Labour hypocrisy in a way which ensures that their coalition of support is more stable than Labour's. South Holland and Hartlepool have more in common than Liverpool Walton and Putney
    How come these simple, good hearted folk who want a quiet life colonized half the planet not so very long ago?
    They didn't? Only a tiny share of the British population were involved in running the Empire. And they were disproportionately Scots and Irish.
    Ok different tack then.

    "Free movement was fine for getting cheap plumbers out to big houses or Lucinda's gap year in Tuscany. That's why those types liked it."

    Can a country which has just voted for Brexit, with the above sentiment prominent in the mix, be described with a straight face as "averse to class envy"?

    Can it bollocks like.
    Don't those two examples apply almost exclusively to those who voted Remain?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 53,485


    "In time, China might face a classical superpower’s dilemma. Is it better to intervene militarily in turbulent Afghanistan, or to leave the country to its own devices? As Andrew Small of the European Council on Foreign Relations points out, Chinese commentary on Afghanistan is already replete with references to the country as the “graveyard of empires”. "


    FT
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 71,746
    The amount of disruption from Lords members mucking around near sight screens/behind the bowlers arm seems way higher than at other grounds
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,910
    isam said:

    @Quincel Who is offering odds on "2024 or later"? I thought backing "2024" and "2025 or later" at 4/6 was good value back in March


    Ladbrokes, 11/10. Also StarSports, but 8/11 I think.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 102,704
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Taz said:

    Most people just want to get on with their lives.

    And Brexit is making it more difficult and expensive than it was previously.

    Which is why we will still be talking about it for the next decade (at least)
    My guesstimate is five decades. After all, the heid jobs banged on about it incessantly 1973-present.
    I won't see it in my lifetime and I'm mid 50s. Although I'll almost certainly be killed in a motorcycle accident in the next 5-10 years.

    The most likely long term trajectory is the 6 counties back in via a united Ireland, Scotland fast tracked in to spite England. England and Wales gradually realign into a Norway type relationship with the EU.
    Once Scotland and NI have gone the impetus towards independence will be taken up here in Wales for independence too.
    Nope, Wales is now the most Unionist nation in the UK.

    According to Yougov last year only 39% of Welsh voters wanted independence, compared to 49% of English voters who wanted independence.

    Polls at the same time showed 49% of NI voters wanted a United Ireland and 55% of Scots wanted independence (though now most polls show most Scots still want to stay in the UK)

    https://order-order.com/2020/08/19/wales-is-most-pro-uk-nation/.

    If the UK broke up while England would still be a G20 nation and Scotland could still rejoin the EU, Wales voted for Brexit in 2016 and out of the UK would be completely alone.

    Wales also relies even more on Westminster subsidy than Scotland does
    The figures you are giving in your second sentence don't exist. They are not poll results. They're made up from differtent polls from, presumably, different times and with different questions, and that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check.

    Thank you very much for cluttering this very pleasant Saturday thread with fictional tripe. You're welcome.
    Wrong.

    The English yougov poll and the Scottish yougov poll were just a month apart and asked the same question.

    So as I said Wales is now the most Unionist part of the UK.

    The link to the Guido site works fine.

    Scotland could swap alleged control from Westminster for control from Frankfurt and Berlin and leave the protection of the UK for the protection of the EU, Wales could not as it voted for Brexit too just like England
    I said "that link you give gives a broken link when one tries to check." That means the second link inside the first, else I'd have said "That link you give is broken when one tries to check". FYI, that means the link in the Guido website doesn't work. So I can't check further.
    Another Yougov poll last year had 35% of English voters backing independence in June 2020
    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18551749.yougov-poll-half-conservative-voters-england-support-english-independence/

    Yougov last November found only 23% of Welsh voters backing independence however
    https://www.countytimes.co.uk/news/18872232.yougov-survey-votes-welsh-independence/
    Doesn't change the fact you were telling us about data from nonexistent polls. Now I really am off to get on with other stuff.
    I have just given you poll links proving my point
    You haven't - for one thing you haven't given data on Northern Ireland.

    But I forget, NI doesn't exist in the UK any more.
    It was there in his earlier comment... "Polls at the same time showed 49% of NI voters wanted a United Ireland".
    It's not actually "polls" if you look at the source he gives.
    They were, you can see the name of the polling company in the figure. This was the NI one, for example.

    https://www.thedetail.tv/articles/a-majority-favour-a-border-poll-on-the-island-of-ireland-in-the-next-10-years
    The figure he gave was 49% (obs without DKs, about right) and the source he gave for that was this which is not a poll but some sort of aggregate of different polls at different times (I got muddled and corrected 2nd to 3rd sentence):

    https://order-order.com/2020/08/19/wales-is-most-pro-uk-nation/

    HYUFD was falsely claiming they were all at the same time and by implication also the same company and methodology.
    So show me any NI poll then (ie for all of NI not just Unionist dominated areas) showing fewer NI voters want a United Ireland than Welsh voters want independence?

    You wewre making the assertion and it is up to you to prove it with polls in all four nations by the same company at the same time with the same questions.

    Otherwise you are trying to prove that 10 apples = 11 bananas (bendy) plus 5 imaginary carrots and some 6 month old pears.
    No it isn't, I am not a pollster and do not commission polls.

    I can however go on polls just a month apart, including from Yougov in the case of England and Wales, polls which showed even fewer wanting independence in Wales than in England
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    We just had our Tesco delivery... delivered, so naturally I interrogated the driver about the #emptyshelves

    Only one item missing, Vivera fake bacon bits, so no biggie

    He said it was drivers, and people working in the warehouses, being pinged by the NHS app. I said "I thought it was Brexit?" to which he waved me away and said "Nah, thats just remainers trying to make out it's cause of Leaving"



    He said Tesco had made all their drivers redundant to try and save money a couple of years ago, and outsourced the work to Eddie Stobart. Stobart's have now raised prices and Tesco won't pay, so they've had trouble getting stuff delivered from the depots

    Straight from the horses mouth, make of it what you will

  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,910
    Quincel said:

    isam said:

    @Quincel Who is offering odds on "2024 or later"? I thought backing "2024" and "2025 or later" at 4/6 was good value back in March


    Ladbrokes, 11/10. Also StarSports, but 8/11 I think.
    StarSports 4/6, to confirm.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    edited August 2021
    Quincel said:

    isam said:

    @Quincel Who is offering odds on "2024 or later"? I thought backing "2024" and "2025 or later" at 4/6 was good value back in March

    Ladbrokes, 11/10. Also StarSports, but 8/11 I think.
    Seems good value. Early election defeat obviously the fly in t'ointment

    I had dinner w Ben from Star the other day, and told him the best political bet out there was Con Maj at 11/10, so I hope that is reflected in their prices
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    kinabalu said:

    Aslan said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Snobbery is a very British vice - but according to the author of a new book it is no longer about looking down on people for having the wrong accent or manners.

    The "new snobbery" is a form of condescension practised by university-educated "progressives" - directed at people they consider ignorant and bigoted, David Skelton argues.

    He believes it is the biggest fault line in British politics, and could lead to the Conservative Party staying in power for the foreseeable future."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58186519

    An interesting article. Four things the English dislike especially; theory of any kind, public intellectuals, class envy and hypocrisy.

    Yes, England is riddled with class, and hardly anyone cares. Yes, Boris and Cameron went to Eton and their sons will go somewhere similar. Most people don't care because they don't want that for themselves and aren't envious enough to stop others and are happy with the fact of difference.

    The Tories manage to combine the illusion of lack of theory with a disdain for pseudo intellectuals, and play on the lack of class envy coupled with apparent Labour hypocrisy in a way which ensures that their coalition of support is more stable than Labour's. South Holland and Hartlepool have more in common than Liverpool Walton and Putney
    How come these simple, good hearted folk who want a quiet life colonized half the planet not so very long ago?
    They didn't? Only a tiny share of the British population were involved in running the Empire. And they were disproportionately Scots and Irish.
    Ok different tack then.

    "Free movement was fine for getting cheap plumbers out to big houses in London or Lucinda's gap year in Tuscany. That's why those types liked it."

    Can a country which has just voted for Brexit, with the above sentiment prominent in the mix, be described with a straight face as "averse to class envy"?

    Can it bollocks like.
    The extremes on both right and left love to use class envy to push their points. It makes them feel oppressed and morally righteous. Such sentiments are all over political forums and social media for that reason. But I don't think it is representative of the bulk of voters on either side. Brits are well up for resentment of political elites but they don't particularly resonate with attacks on economic elites, for better or for worse. Most British people are socially ambitious and want to climb the ladder, so they don't resent others for doing so - providing of course that such people didn't cheat to get there.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 41,810
    +490 cases in Australia. They're still going in the wrong direction despite the growing lockdown.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 34,736
    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Snobbery is a very British vice - but according to the author of a new book it is no longer about looking down on people for having the wrong accent or manners.

    The "new snobbery" is a form of condescension practised by university-educated "progressives" - directed at people they consider ignorant and bigoted, David Skelton argues.

    He believes it is the biggest fault line in British politics, and could lead to the Conservative Party staying in power for the foreseeable future."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58186519

    An interesting article. Four things the English dislike especially; theory of any kind, public intellectuals, class envy and hypocrisy.

    Yes, England is riddled with class, and hardly anyone cares. Yes, Boris and Cameron went to Eton and their sons will go somewhere similar. Most people don't care because they don't want that for themselves and aren't envious enough to stop others and are happy with the fact of difference.

    The Tories manage to combine the illusion of lack of theory with a disdain for pseudo intellectuals, and play on the lack of class envy coupled with apparent Labour hypocrisy in a way which ensures that their coalition of support is more stable than Labour's. South Holland and Hartlepool have more in common than Liverpool Walton and Putney
    How come these simple, good hearted folk who want a quiet life colonized half the planet not so very long ago?
    I’d also suggest that like most people the English dislike other people’s hypocrisy. Their own their fine with.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 7,780

    +490 cases in Australia. They're still going in the wrong direction despite the growing lockdown.

    +490 cases in Australia. They're still going in the wrong direction despite the growing lockdown.

    You can either have a messy beginning, a messy middle, or a messy end, but no one is getting out of this pandemic unscathed
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 44,316
    isam said:

    We just had our Tesco delivery... delivered, so naturally I interrogated the driver about the #emptyshelves

    Only one item missing, Vivera fake bacon bits, so no biggie

    He said it was drivers, and people working in the warehouses, being pinged by the NHS app. I said "I thought it was Brexit?" to which he waved me away and said "Nah, thats just remainers trying to make out it's cause of Leaving"



    He said Tesco had made all their drivers redundant to try and save money a couple of years ago, and outsourced the work to Eddie Stobart. Stobart's have now raised prices and Tesco won't pay, so they've had trouble getting stuff delivered from the depots

    Straight from the horses mouth, make of it what you will

    Parmesan shavings, vivera fake bacon bits, it's all falling apart right enough.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 19,102

    Yanis Varoufakis
    @yanisvaroufakis
    I just heard that Kier Starmer expelled Ken Loach from the Labour Party. I hope this is fake news. If not, all he managed is to expel Labour's soul, leaving behind an arid, soulless Labour Party - one that is even poorer than under Blair and his fellow war criminals.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,910
    edited August 2021
    isam said:

    Quincel said:

    isam said:

    @Quincel Who is offering odds on "2024 or later"? I thought backing "2024" and "2025 or later" at 4/6 was good value back in March

    Ladbrokes, 11/10. Also StarSports, but 8/11 I think.
    Seems good value. Early election defeat obviously the fly in t'ointment

    I had dinner w Ben from Star the other day, and told him the best political bet out there was Con Maj at 11/10, so I hope that is reflected in their prices
    Dammit: I never get these kinds of invites. Jealous.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 30,520
    Why are England odds on to win this test match?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 52,123
    DavidL said:

    isam said:

    We just had our Tesco delivery... delivered, so naturally I interrogated the driver about the #emptyshelves

    Only one item missing, Vivera fake bacon bits, so no biggie

    He said it was drivers, and people working in the warehouses, being pinged by the NHS app. I said "I thought it was Brexit?" to which he waved me away and said "Nah, thats just remainers trying to make out it's cause of Leaving"



    He said Tesco had made all their drivers redundant to try and save money a couple of years ago, and outsourced the work to Eddie Stobart. Stobart's have now raised prices and Tesco won't pay, so they've had trouble getting stuff delivered from the depots

    Straight from the horses mouth, make of it what you will

    Parmesan shavings, vivera fake bacon bits, it's all falling apart right enough.
    It’s all for the grater good.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 52,123
    kinabalu said:

    Why are England odds on to win this test match?

    Because sports punters bet with their hearts not their heads.

    Or because there is a gambling syndicate in India trying to rig the odds.

    Or possibly both.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 44,316
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    isam said:

    We just had our Tesco delivery... delivered, so naturally I interrogated the driver about the #emptyshelves

    Only one item missing, Vivera fake bacon bits, so no biggie

    He said it was drivers, and people working in the warehouses, being pinged by the NHS app. I said "I thought it was Brexit?" to which he waved me away and said "Nah, thats just remainers trying to make out it's cause of Leaving"



    He said Tesco had made all their drivers redundant to try and save money a couple of years ago, and outsourced the work to Eddie Stobart. Stobart's have now raised prices and Tesco won't pay, so they've had trouble getting stuff delivered from the depots

    Straight from the horses mouth, make of it what you will

    Parmesan shavings, vivera fake bacon bits, it's all falling apart right enough.
    It’s all for the grater good.
    Give me no but(tie)s.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 52,123
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    isam said:

    We just had our Tesco delivery... delivered, so naturally I interrogated the driver about the #emptyshelves

    Only one item missing, Vivera fake bacon bits, so no biggie

    He said it was drivers, and people working in the warehouses, being pinged by the NHS app. I said "I thought it was Brexit?" to which he waved me away and said "Nah, thats just remainers trying to make out it's cause of Leaving"



    He said Tesco had made all their drivers redundant to try and save money a couple of years ago, and outsourced the work to Eddie Stobart. Stobart's have now raised prices and Tesco won't pay, so they've had trouble getting stuff delivered from the depots

    Straight from the horses mouth, make of it what you will

    Parmesan shavings, vivera fake bacon bits, it's all falling apart right enough.
    It’s all for the grater good.
    Give me no but(tie)s.
    It was butter’n attempt to lighten the mood.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 44,316
    kinabalu said:

    Why are England odds on to win this test match?

    Seems a tad optimistic but they should have a lead at the end of the first innings and that will put pressure on their 3rd innings. Do they go for a big lead and try to win or do they hang on and make sure of the draw? It's tricky. 3rd innings often are.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 52,123
    Now - the burning question for the next two and a half hours.

    What inventive and bizarre way will Joe Root get himself out?

    I’m going for ‘handled ball’ as i don’t think he’s done that one yet.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 14,714
    ydoethur said:

    Now - the burning question for the next two and a half hours.

    What inventive and bizarre way will Joe Root get himself out?

    I’m going for ‘handled ball’ as i don’t think he’s done that one yet.

    He'll sneeze and blow the bails off.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 102,704


    Yanis Varoufakis
    @yanisvaroufakis
    I just heard that Kier Starmer expelled Ken Loach from the Labour Party. I hope this is fake news. If not, all he managed is to expel Labour's soul, leaving behind an arid, soulless Labour Party - one that is even poorer than under Blair and his fellow war criminals.

    Yet Blair won general elections, Loach's hero Corbyn didn't
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 44,316
    ydoethur said:

    Now - the burning question for the next two and a half hours.

    What inventive and bizarre way will Joe Root get himself out?

    I’m going for ‘handled ball’ as i don’t think he’s done that one yet.

    More mundane but my guess is run out backing up with a fingertip from the bowler.
  • ydoethur said:

    Now - the burning question for the next two and a half hours.

    What inventive and bizarre way will Joe Root get himself out?

    I’m going for ‘handled ball’ as i don’t think he’s done that one yet.

    Test cricket or snooze-fest cricket?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 30,520
    RobD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Aslan said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Snobbery is a very British vice - but according to the author of a new book it is no longer about looking down on people for having the wrong accent or manners.

    The "new snobbery" is a form of condescension practised by university-educated "progressives" - directed at people they consider ignorant and bigoted, David Skelton argues.

    He believes it is the biggest fault line in British politics, and could lead to the Conservative Party staying in power for the foreseeable future."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58186519

    An interesting article. Four things the English dislike especially; theory of any kind, public intellectuals, class envy and hypocrisy.

    Yes, England is riddled with class, and hardly anyone cares. Yes, Boris and Cameron went to Eton and their sons will go somewhere similar. Most people don't care because they don't want that for themselves and aren't envious enough to stop others and are happy with the fact of difference.

    The Tories manage to combine the illusion of lack of theory with a disdain for pseudo intellectuals, and play on the lack of class envy coupled with apparent Labour hypocrisy in a way which ensures that their coalition of support is more stable than Labour's. South Holland and Hartlepool have more in common than Liverpool Walton and Putney
    How come these simple, good hearted folk who want a quiet life colonized half the planet not so very long ago?
    They didn't? Only a tiny share of the British population were involved in running the Empire. And they were disproportionately Scots and Irish.
    Ok different tack then.

    "Free movement was fine for getting cheap plumbers out to big houses or Lucinda's gap year in Tuscany. That's why those types liked it."

    Can a country which has just voted for Brexit, with the above sentiment prominent in the mix, be described with a straight face as "averse to class envy"?

    Can it bollocks like.
    Don't those two examples apply almost exclusively to those who voted Remain?
    Rob, I'm talking about the resentment of the affluent people in those examples - and it being prominent in the mix of sentiment that drove the Leave vote. My quote was from the Leave point of view.

    It has more than a whiff to me of what algakirk claims we English hold no truck with - class envy.

    Unless ... ah yes I think I'm starting to see now ... class envy is only "class envy" when it comes from the Left. If it comes from Tory voting Leavers it must be something else. Something more benign and rational.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 23,487
    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Why are England odds on to win this test match?

    Seems a tad optimistic but they should have a lead at the end of the first innings and that will put pressure on their 3rd innings. Do they go for a big lead and try to win or do they hang on and make sure of the draw? It's tricky. 3rd innings often are.
    It's the great thing about Test Match cricket. Generally batting first is better - especially in Asia - but batting second does have the advantage of not having to worry about whether to enforce the follow on and not having to worry about when to declare in the second innings.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 19,102
    HYUFD said:


    Yanis Varoufakis
    @yanisvaroufakis
    I just heard that Kier Starmer expelled Ken Loach from the Labour Party. I hope this is fake news. If not, all he managed is to expel Labour's soul, leaving behind an arid, soulless Labour Party - one that is even poorer than under Blair and his fellow war criminals.

    Yet Blair won general elections, Loach's hero Corbyn didn't
    New Labour lost in 2010 and 2015 as for 2017 loss see Forde report for more information.

    Labour under SKS will get nowhere near the 2017 result.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 30,520
    isam said:

    Quincel said:

    isam said:

    @Quincel Who is offering odds on "2024 or later"? I thought backing "2024" and "2025 or later" at 4/6 was good value back in March

    Ladbrokes, 11/10. Also StarSports, but 8/11 I think.
    Seems good value. Early election defeat obviously the fly in t'ointment

    I had dinner w Ben from Star the other day, and told him the best political bet out there was Con Maj at 11/10, so I hope that is reflected in their prices
    Cons largest party at 1.48 is better imo. I did it at 1.75 a while ago and I'm not remotely tempted to lay it back at that. Which is unusual for me - I'm a timid 'cash out too early' sort of operator.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 52,123
    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    Now - the burning question for the next two and a half hours.

    What inventive and bizarre way will Joe Root get himself out?

    I’m going for ‘handled ball’ as i don’t think he’s done that one yet.

    He'll sneeze and blow the bails off.
    That snot impossible.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    Dura_Ace said:

    I am so bored by SKS I just can't stand it. I wish he'd say 'fuck' on R4 or buy an SF90 in Abu Dhabi blue with a crema interior or call for the violent overthrow of the government.

    He did try to overturn the biggest vote in British history, although his way of doing so was a bit boring
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 52,123
    edited August 2021

    ydoethur said:

    Now - the burning question for the next two and a half hours.

    What inventive and bizarre way will Joe Root get himself out?

    I’m going for ‘handled ball’ as i don’t think he’s done that one yet.

    Test cricket or snooze-fest cricket?
    Definitely Test. As if anyone on this board would watch the Hundred.
This discussion has been closed.