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Legislation Watch: three planned changes that will limit our freedoms – politicalbetting.com

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  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,143
    Video of the day: fish being dropped from a plane to restock a lake in Utah.

    https://twitter.com/KCTV5/status/1414954734595813384

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,188
    dixiedean said:

    An ex-PBer raises "noxious emissions ".

    Has Richard Burgon let one rip in the Commons again?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Carnyx said:

    Did you read the preceding text? Context is all
    #

    "The UK’s leading maritime rescue charity has vowed to keep saving anyone in peril at sea despite provisions in draft legislation that barristers say could threaten volunteers with life imprisonment for picking up asylum seekers.

    The Royal National Lifeboat Institution made the statement after immigration barristers warned that Clause 38 of the nationality and borders bill, published on Tuesday, potentially criminalised rescues of asylum seekers if they were deemed to constitute “facilitating” their arrival in the UK."

    That is as close to direct opposition to gmt policy as one can gert without saying it out front. I suspect the journo was being careful.
    Bollocks, the preceding paragraph literally says the criticism comes from "barristers" or specificially "immigration barristers" like George Peretz QC quoted later in the article etc not from the RNLI.

    Do you think the RNLI is an organisation of "barristers" or "immigration barristers" or not?

    Those paragraphs are not relevant to what the RNLI itself has to say, which is not a story.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,959
    edited July 2021
    dixiedean said:

    Must say I went just before pandemic because I had 20 minutes before an appointment, was starving and it was there.
    Was not quick. Took over 15 minutes, was not tasty, and was not cheap.
    Fail to see the attraction.
    Coffee is good though. Better than the coffee chains.
    I rarely eat in chain fast food places, but pre pandemic i take my friends kids to events / their sporting competitions from time to time and am told they can have a McDonald's etc....I just get a coffee, but I am always shocked how expensive a bill you can quickly rack up in these places. I often come away thinking for a couple of quid more we could have eaten somewhere rather nice.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,461

    Asylum seeker: "I NEED to get to the nearest safe country."

    Non-asylum seeker: "I WANT to get to the UK."
    An issue not acknowledged by anyone in this debate is that Asylum seeker and Economic Migrant are not exclusive properties.

    From what I have seen, it is perfectly possible to be partly both. Indeed that is rather common. The "100% I will be killed in my country" is rare. "My people have a shitty life in country X, and I would like to get a job in a rich country" is much more common.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,508
    tlg86 said:

    A tunnel under Guildford? That would be, err, challenging.

    Naah. Cut and cover...
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180

    Then they can apply for a visa.

    But visa applications for "distant family" are not easy so they might be rejected.
    Yup parnets names 'Adam & Eve' doesn't quite cut it with the HO.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,912
    Carnyx said:

    Hardly surprising since that would be POLITICAL and charities aren't allowed to be political these days by law, no?

    :D:D:D Top joke Carnyx
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    dixiedean said:

    Must say I went just before pandemic because I had 20 minutes before an appointment, was starving and it was there.
    Was not quick. Took over 15 minutes, was not tasty, and was not cheap.
    Fail to see the attraction.
    Coffee is good though. Better than the coffee chains.
    Here in my little corner of the Mediterranean in SE Spain you pay €1.50 for good coffee and it comes with a glass of water, a glass of orange juice, a lttle plate of donuts and a seat by the sea! I do love SE Spain!
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,961

    An issue not acknowledged by anyone in this debate is that Asylum seeker and Economic Migrant are not exclusive properties.

    From what I have seen, it is perfectly possible to be partly both. Indeed that is rather common. The "100% I will be killed in my country" is rare. "My people have a shitty life in country X, and I would like to get a job in a rich country" is much more common.
    As what would a refugee from a grievous famine in their own country be classified?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,606

    Naah. Cut and cover...
    Was thinking of the geology. Lots of strata tilted and faulted. Never mind the locals whose gardens might be cut and coivered.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,461
    Carnyx said:

    Oh yes, and did not a NAAFI canteen manager end up firing the AA MGs at the Argies?

    But those are very small contingents in support toles in proportion to the - what was it? 25% or something that we are hearing about today.

    [Edit: Chinese laundrymen and NAAFI managhers were routine civvies on RN after the war IIRC.)
    In fact, IIRC, the presences of Chinese laundrymen among the casualties contributed to a change in policy - ending their use.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,397
    edited July 2021

    So I asked a friend who specialises in charity law.

    She said if you wanted to damage (if not destroy) the RNLI the government's approach is a pretty good way to do so.

    1) Insurance wise, unless there's a legal exemption/clarification from the government, then it triggers insurance problems, you get your insurance voided and open yourself up to huge liabilities. Check for example your own car insurance terms and conditions. As, for example, the Northern Ireland Protocol shows, what the the PM and government says and what the legal actualité.

    2) Any complaint raised to the police will trigger an investigation, that could lead people being barred from carrying out rescues as the DBS check cause both the RNLI and the individual problems. Just imagine you're a teacher, banker, NHS worker, or anyone of the plethora of people who have to go through (regular) DBS checks for their day jobs. Given how slowly the police and CPS operate this process might take months if not years.

    3) Remember it requires a complaint from a citizen to trigger a police investigation, so you can imagine someone like the Katie Hopkins, Nigel Farage, or someone whipped into a frenzy by the Daily Mail getting upset. That is going to lead to some serious staffing issues.

    4) Point 2) and 3) Also has fundraising implications (as well as wider charity implications for the RNLI). If people start doing 3 then the Fundraising Regulator as well the Charity Commission will investigate (remember you don't need any convictions on the RNLI just the appearance of bad conduct) for those organisations to start investigating you. Things like gift aid and the whole charitable status could be at risk. If they lose gift aid status then you really are putting the lives of people at risk.

    5) This is the government that is reducing judicial review, so point 1) is critical.

    6) All of this could be avoided with an explicit exemption for the RNLI.

    Before anyone moans about lefty lawyers, she has impeccable Conservative credentials.

    On 3 - it wouldn't be Katie Hopkins or co getting upset and launching the case. It could be anyone who understands the law and wishes to knock the Tory party as the story comes out.

    I commented below that even if the Police decided not to do something, you may end up with a private criminal prosecution simply to check what the law actually was (and embarrass Boris and co at the same time).

    Separately and offtopic - did you see the link I posted yesterday regarding a podcast talking about Tether https://t.co/5FrMy23HAU?amp=1 . Knowing your love of cryptocurrencies I expect the whole hour will be justifiable as work time.

  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    Yesterday India had fewer positive Covid cases reported than the UK.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Interesting piece on why the JCVI is not recommending shortening the interval between doses of the Pfizer vaccine:

    Professor Anthony Harnden, the JCVI’s deputy chair [said] "we concentrated on the Pfizer vaccine because of course that’s one that’s being given to younger people at the moment.

    “And it’s quite clear from antibody T-cells studies that you get much lower response, and poorer quality memory response with the shorter interval — that’s a four-week interval compared to an eight-to-12-week interval. And the actual real data vaccine effectiveness studies show that there is a lower vaccine efficacy against symptomatic disease with shorter intervals compared to longer intervals.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/infections-will-rise-if-interval-between-vaccines-is-further-reduced-advisers-warn-lrhzzq28r [£££]

    They modelled the effect of reducing the interval and found it would make things worse in terms of the number of cases.

    That is strikingly different from the approach of most other countries and the advice of Pfizer themselves.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,461

    As what would a refugee from a grievous famine in their own country be classified?
    Well, add a sprinkle of the fact that many famines are actually caused by deliberate policy. The famous Ethiopian famine was part of a civil war....

    So "I am starving at home, and the government is doing it to my people deliberately."
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,816

    Has Richard Burgon let one rip in the Commons again?
    @Tissue_Price moaning about the Environment Agency in his constituency.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,461

    Interesting piece on why the JCVI is not recommending shortening the interval between doses of the Pfizer vaccine:

    Professor Anthony Harnden, the JCVI’s deputy chair [said] "we concentrated on the Pfizer vaccine because of course that’s one that’s being given to younger people at the moment.

    “And it’s quite clear from antibody T-cells studies that you get much lower response, and poorer quality memory response with the shorter interval — that’s a four-week interval compared to an eight-to-12-week interval. And the actual real data vaccine effectiveness studies show that there is a lower vaccine efficacy against symptomatic disease with shorter intervals compared to longer intervals.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/infections-will-rise-if-interval-between-vaccines-is-further-reduced-advisers-warn-lrhzzq28r [£££]

    They modelled the effect of reducing the interval and found it would make things worse in terms of the number of cases.

    That is strikingly different from the approach of most other countries and the advice of Pfizer themselves.

    What is interesting is that the medical "system" in the UK seems to be, sometimes much more.... investigative? than in other countries.

    I have pointed out such things to my American relatives - they (and the CDC) come back to "Recommended by the manufacturer and licensed for" and anything else is Rank Heresy......
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,606

    Naah. Cut and cover...
    The geology at Guildford can't be too different from the Hog's Back section (the big one below the map). Maybe it's a doddle to the heirs of I. K. Brunel and G. Stephenson, but it looks awfully tricky to me. And one wonders aboiut the scope for subsidence with such complex geology.

    http://www.largeimages.bgs.ac.uk/iip/mapsportal.html?id=1001778
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,420

    Interesting piece on why the JCVI is not recommending shortening the interval between doses of the Pfizer vaccine:

    Professor Anthony Harnden, the JCVI’s deputy chair [said] "we concentrated on the Pfizer vaccine because of course that’s one that’s being given to younger people at the moment.

    “And it’s quite clear from antibody T-cells studies that you get much lower response, and poorer quality memory response with the shorter interval — that’s a four-week interval compared to an eight-to-12-week interval. And the actual real data vaccine effectiveness studies show that there is a lower vaccine efficacy against symptomatic disease with shorter intervals compared to longer intervals.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/infections-will-rise-if-interval-between-vaccines-is-further-reduced-advisers-warn-lrhzzq28r [£££]

    They modelled the effect of reducing the interval and found it would make things worse in terms of the number of cases.

    That is strikingly different from the approach of most other countries and the advice of Pfizer themselves.

    Interesting. I seem to recall it was said that ordinarily you would go for a 12 week interval, but it was tested with a three week interval because, obviously, they wanted to get the vaccine approved asap.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398

    I rarely eat in chain fast food places, but pre pandemic i take my friends kids to events / their sporting competitions from time to time and am told they can have a McDonald's etc....I just get a coffee, but I am always shocked how expensive a bill you can quickly rack up in these places. I often come away thinking for a couple of quid more we could have eaten somewhere rather nice.
    My objection to McDonalds since they introduced the new ordering service is firstly the food is slow, the wait is just ages and ages to get the food; whereas it used to be available immediately. Secondly, it is not hot. I've had several lukewarm burgers and cold chips. It used to be hot. The advantages they had have been lost. I don't care what rubbish excuses they come up with to justify bad service during the pandemic; the place is going downhill, before you factor in the reality that the food is terrible from a health perspective. And it is £5-£7 for a meal. And you can't get a seat under the social distancing rules and associated covid theatrics.

    I recently switched from Mc Donalds to supermarket sandwich deals - £3 -£4 for a meal deal and you can get much better food, and it is quick.

  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822

    What is interesting is that the medical "system" in the UK seems to be, sometimes much more.... investigative? than in other countries.

    I have pointed out such things to my American relatives - they (and the CDC) come back to "Recommended by the manufacturer and licensed for" and anything else is Rank Heresy......
    Yes, the UK approach does seem to be quite distinctive and (as far as I can see as a non-expert) very well thought out and grounded in a very practical application of the scientific data. It's no doubt helped by the fact that we seem to have some of the world's best statistical data on the real-world rollout.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,407

    Our little 'un is a bit of a faddy eater - we have enough variety to give him a different meal each day of the week, but the menu is the same week after week. He does eat fruit though, which is a relief. It used to be a nightmare taking him anywhere, as he would only eat ham sandwiches.

    Talking to other parents, he isn't as bad as some - one friend of his only eats chicken nuggets and potato waffles, and only drinks water. Not chips. Not pasta. Not salad. He seems fine on it. Other kids apparently eat anything put down in front of them.

    Goodness knows what makes all the kids different.

    Nigel Farage made great play recently of the fact that whilst out in the Channel he came across a dinghy with a couple of men in it. They were obviously in trouble so they took them aboard and brought them back to shore.

    Would Farage now be facing potential life imprisonment?

    Well he is making a good living out of exploiting illegal migrants...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,461

    Yes, the UK approach does seem to be quite distinctive and (as far as I can see as a non-expert) very well thought out and grounded in a very practical application of the scientific data. It's no doubt helped by the fact that we seem to have some of the world's best statistical data on the real-world rollout.
    I think it is also cultural - the "but that is breaking the manufacturers instructions" seems to be a common theme.

    Interestingly, the booster jab thing is causing a bit of storm in the US

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/07/pfizer-pushes-for-boosters-as-health-experts-say-theyre-unneeded-unethical/
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,779
    edited July 2021
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,959

    Interesting piece on why the JCVI is not recommending shortening the interval between doses of the Pfizer vaccine:

    Professor Anthony Harnden, the JCVI’s deputy chair [said] "we concentrated on the Pfizer vaccine because of course that’s one that’s being given to younger people at the moment.

    “And it’s quite clear from antibody T-cells studies that you get much lower response, and poorer quality memory response with the shorter interval — that’s a four-week interval compared to an eight-to-12-week interval. And the actual real data vaccine effectiveness studies show that there is a lower vaccine efficacy against symptomatic disease with shorter intervals compared to longer intervals.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/infections-will-rise-if-interval-between-vaccines-is-further-reduced-advisers-warn-lrhzzq28r [£££]

    They modelled the effect of reducing the interval and found it would make things worse in terms of the number of cases.

    That is strikingly different from the approach of most other countries and the advice of Pfizer themselves.

    Well the world is currently A/B testing this. The likes of Israel obviously went for 3 weeks, Canada are going for even longer than the UK.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,959
    edited July 2021
    40% is low for the Tories (down 4)...but...Labour also down four points on June.

    Bit of a weird mix of polling at the moment, but overall still showing large Tory lead.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    with regard to the RNLI problem, on reflection it looks more and more like the problem may rest with Priti Patel. She acts from the gut and tries to drive through what she thinks is right, and has had a good run, with a bit of luck. However, she has never come across as being particularly appreciative of the nuances of her position, in the manner that Amber Rudd and Theresa May were.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,816
    darkage said:

    My objection to McDonalds since they introduced the new ordering service is firstly the food is slow, the wait is just ages and ages to get the food; whereas it used to be available immediately. Secondly, it is not hot. I've had several lukewarm burgers and cold chips. It used to be hot. The advantages they had have been lost. I don't care what rubbish excuses they come up with to justify bad service during the pandemic; the place is going downhill, before you factor in the reality that the food is terrible from a health perspective. And it is £5-£7 for a meal. And you can't get a seat under the social distancing rules and associated covid theatrics.

    I recently switched from Mc Donalds to supermarket sandwich deals - £3 -£4 for a meal deal and you can get much better food, and it is quick.

    Yeah. It isn't fast. I remember thinking I could have gone into a cafe and ordered a full English and it would have been quicker.
    As well as cheaper and more nutritious.
    But speed used to be the USP. Now it isn't.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,407
    Carnyx said:

    Did you read the preceding text? Context is all
    #

    "The UK’s leading maritime rescue charity has vowed to keep saving anyone in peril at sea despite provisions in draft legislation that barristers say could threaten volunteers with life imprisonment for picking up asylum seekers.

    The Royal National Lifeboat Institution made the statement after immigration barristers warned that Clause 38 of the nationality and borders bill, published on Tuesday, potentially criminalised rescues of asylum seekers if they were deemed to constitute “facilitating” their arrival in the UK."

    That is as close to direct opposition to gmt policy as one can gert without saying it out front. I suspect the journo was being careful.
    That may well be a problem for their management and Trustees. Supporting illegal work does leave them open to liability too.

    Of course, it is not just the RNLI that needs legal exemption, but also independent lifeboats such as on the IoW, and also anyone else in command of a boat who encounters anyone in distress from fishermen, to merchant marine to pleasure boat skippers.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,816
    darkage said:

    with regard to the RNLI problem, on reflection it looks more and more like the problem may rest with Priti Patel. She acts from the gut and tries to drive through what she thinks is right, and has had a good run, with a bit of luck. However, she has never come across as being particularly appreciative of the nuances of her position, in the manner that Amber Rudd and Theresa May were.

    It's almost as if it is a complex issue. If it were easy it would have been solved.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,959
    Far East currently being hit by the COVID...

    Malaysia reports 11,618 new coronavirus cases, the biggest one-day increase on record, and 118 new deaths

    NEW: Tokyo reports 1,149 new coronavirus cases, the biggest one-day increase since January, as the city prepares for the Olympics

    BREAKING: Indonesia reports 54,517 new coronavirus cases, by far the biggest one-day increase on record, and 991 new deaths
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,959
    edited July 2021
    Greens in turmoil as co-leader Sian Berry quits over 'inconsistencies' around trans issues...

    Sian Berry has announced she will not be standing for re-election as co-leader of the Greens over her concerns the party is sending “mixed messages” around trans rights. The London Assembly member said she felt there was an “inconsistency” around her pledge to fight for equality for transgender people and the party’s choice of spokespeople.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    40% is low for the Tories (down 4)...but...Labour also down four points on June.

    Bit of a weird mix of polling at the moment, but overall still showing large Tory lead.
    Tories down 4 and Labour down 4?

    Thread header saying Tories are down incoming then? 🤔
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,816

    Greens in turmoil as co-leader Sian Berry quits over 'inconsistencies' around trans issues...

    Sian Berry has announced she will not be standing for re-election as co-leader of the Greens over her concerns the party is sending “mixed messages” around trans rights. The London Assembly member said she felt there was an “inconsistency” around her pledge to fight for equality for transgender people and the party’s choice of spokespeople.

    They should get Caroline Lucas back.
    Recycling.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180

    I think it is also cultural - the "but that is breaking the manufacturers instructions" seems to be a common theme.

    Interestingly, the booster jab thing is causing a bit of storm in the US

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/07/pfizer-pushes-for-boosters-as-health-experts-say-theyre-unneeded-unethical/
    Following the 'recommended rules' & AZT panic explains why barely 50% of 65-9 year olds are double jabbed - way less than those aged 50-60. Meanwhile Delta is rampant among the under 30s as the big August cross-generational family holibobs loom.....
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,672
    edited July 2021

    So I asked a friend who specialises in charity law.

    She said if you wanted to damage (if not destroy) the RNLI the government's approach is a pretty good way to do so.

    1) Insurance wise, unless there's a legal exemption/clarification from the government, then it triggers insurance problems, you get your insurance voided and open yourself up to huge liabilities. Check for example your own car insurance terms and conditions. As, for example, the Northern Ireland Protocol shows, what the the PM and government says and what the legal actualité.

    2) Any complaint raised to the police will trigger an investigation, that could lead people being barred from carrying out rescues as the DBS check cause both the RNLI and the individual problems. Just imagine you're a teacher, banker, NHS worker, or anyone of the plethora of people who have to go through (regular) DBS checks for their day jobs. Given how slowly the police and CPS operate this process might take months if not years.

    3) Remember it requires a complaint from a citizen to trigger a police investigation, so you can imagine someone like the Katie Hopkins, Nigel Farage, or someone whipped into a frenzy by the Daily Mail getting upset. That is going to lead to some serious staffing issues.

    4) Point 2) and 3) Also has fundraising implications (as well as wider charity implications for the RNLI). If people start doing 3 then the Fundraising Regulator as well the Charity Commission will investigate (remember you don't need any convictions on the RNLI just the appearance of bad conduct) for those organisations to start investigating you. Things like gift aid and the whole charitable status could be at risk. If they lose gift aid status then you really are putting the lives of people at risk.

    5) This is the government that is reducing judicial review, so point 1) is critical.

    6) All of this could be avoided with an explicit exemption for the RNLI.

    Before anyone moans about lefty lawyers, she has impeccable Conservative credentials.

    I think that all rather misses the point that the government doesn't want the RNLI picking up migrants in the channel. That's the purpose of this policy. They will now not do it.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    dixiedean said:

    Yeah. It isn't fast. I remember thinking I could have gone into a cafe and ordered a full English and it would have been quicker.
    As well as cheaper and more nutritious.
    But speed used to be the USP. Now it isn't.
    They used to have racks of pre-made burgers up and when you ordered one they'd grab it off the shelf and give it to you.

    Now they make food to order.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,407

    Interesting piece on why the JCVI is not recommending shortening the interval between doses of the Pfizer vaccine:

    Professor Anthony Harnden, the JCVI’s deputy chair [said] "we concentrated on the Pfizer vaccine because of course that’s one that’s being given to younger people at the moment.

    “And it’s quite clear from antibody T-cells studies that you get much lower response, and poorer quality memory response with the shorter interval — that’s a four-week interval compared to an eight-to-12-week interval. And the actual real data vaccine effectiveness studies show that there is a lower vaccine efficacy against symptomatic disease with shorter intervals compared to longer intervals.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/infections-will-rise-if-interval-between-vaccines-is-further-reduced-advisers-warn-lrhzzq28r [£££]

    They modelled the effect of reducing the interval and found it would make things worse in terms of the number of cases.

    That is strikingly different from the approach of most other countries and the advice of Pfizer themselves.

    Also strikingly different to the experience of protection in USA and Israel that vaccinated with Pfizer and Moderna with a 4 week gap.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,397
    felix said:

    Following the 'recommended rules' & AZT panic explains why barely 50% of 65-9 year olds are double jabbed - way less than those aged 50-60. Meanwhile Delta is rampant among the under 30s as the big August cross-generational family holibobs loom.....
    It actually doesn't.

    I'm in the 45-49 group and been double jabbed. Those aged 65-9 qualified for their second jabs months ago...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,959
    edited July 2021
    Foxy said:

    Also strikingly different to the experience of protection in USA and Israel that vaccinated with Pfizer and Moderna with a 4 week gap.
    We don't know that yet....they are just getting the Delta variant wave now.

    We had that first report from Israel saying protection was only ~60% for Pfizer against Indian variant, but it was a really small sample size. And we all remember the South African first study of AZN vs their variant saying it was useless, but it turned out is isn't. Law of small numbers and all that.

    In 3 months, I think we will be able to say more.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,397
    dixiedean said:

    They should get Caroline Lucas back.
    Recycling.
    The Trans agenda is an impossible issue to square in a way that would please anyone - everytime anyone brings it up I escape at the first opportunity.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,871
    Carnyx said:

    The geology at Guildford can't be too different from the Hog's Back section (the big one below the map). Maybe it's a doddle to the heirs of I. K. Brunel and G. Stephenson, but it looks awfully tricky to me. And one wonders aboiut the scope for subsidence with such complex geology.

    http://www.largeimages.bgs.ac.uk/iip/mapsportal.html?id=1001778
    IANAE, but geology can almost always be engineered out by altering the boring machine or tunnelling technique. This is one of the reasons why I think Musk's Boring Company is on a hiding to nothing: they seem to want one type of boring machine for any type of ground.

    If the French could build a subway and station through mud under the Seine by freezing the ground 120 years ago, we can build in Guildford.
  • timpletimple Posts: 123
    Rather than very woolly duty of care why not have a law that says any social network of any appreciable size must be able to verify the owner of the account. If there are some countries where that is difficult... don't show their "contribution" in our country. When it suits tech companies they can do it. Try opening an account on AirBnB. Or open an account for one of those electric scooters. Or a bank account. Would so many people be so keen to racially abuse our football team if they knew plod could be knocking the next day?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,407

    We don't know that yet....they are just getting the Delta variant wave.

    In 3 months, I think we will be able to say more.
    None of the county-operated hospitals in Los Angeles County have admitted a single COVID-19 patient who was fully vaccinated.

    "At this point this really is a preventable illness, a preventable infection," a county health official said, according to NBC LA
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,816
    MaxPB said:

    I think that all rather misses the point that the government doesn't want the RNLI picking up migrants in the channel. That's the purpose of this policy. They will now not do it.
    And how are they to distinguish in a storm in the middle of the night?
    Or they to go, demand ID, then either rescue or let sink?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,420
    timple said:

    Rather than very woolly duty of care why not have a law that says any social network of any appreciable size must be able to verify the owner of the account. If there are some countries where that is difficult... don't show their "contribution" in our country. When it suits tech companies they can do it. Try opening an account on AirBnB. Or open an account for one of those electric scooters. Or a bank account. Would so many people be so keen to racially abuse our football team if they knew plod could be knocking the next day?

    I guess the question is, where do you draw the line? Would we have to give our personal details for Vanilla forums?

    Personally I'm a libertarian and I'd encourage people to vote with their feet. Don't like Facebook or Twitter? Don't use them.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,397
    timple said:

    Rather than very woolly duty of care why not have a law that says any social network of any appreciable size must be able to verify the owner of the account. If there are some countries where that is difficult... don't show their "contribution" in our country. When it suits tech companies they can do it. Try opening an account on AirBnB. Or open an account for one of those electric scooters. Or a bank account. Would so many people be so keen to racially abuse our football team if they knew plod could be knocking the next day?

    Anonymous accounts do however have a purpose - a lot of posters on here only post because it's to some extent anonymous.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,420

    Greens in turmoil as co-leader Sian Berry quits over 'inconsistencies' around trans issues...

    Sian Berry has announced she will not be standing for re-election as co-leader of the Greens over her concerns the party is sending “mixed messages” around trans rights. The London Assembly member said she felt there was an “inconsistency” around her pledge to fight for equality for transgender people and the party’s choice of spokespeople.

    To lose one leader is unfortunate, to lose two is careless.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,168

    Greens in turmoil as co-leader Sian Berry quits over 'inconsistencies' around trans issues...

    Sian Berry has announced she will not be standing for re-election as co-leader of the Greens over her concerns the party is sending “mixed messages” around trans rights. The London Assembly member said she felt there was an “inconsistency” around her pledge to fight for equality for transgender people and the party’s choice of spokespeople.

    Will she follow Natalie Bennett and go to Israel?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,407
    FF43 said:

    The "Never mind the law, trust what the government says" line, which gets an airing from certain commentators here, seems a little inadequate. About a government that only yesterday reneged on its manifesto and legal commitments on aid.
    A government that puts itself above the law is a danger to every citizen.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,959
    edited July 2021
    Foxy said:

    None of the county-operated hospitals in Los Angeles County have admitted a single COVID-19 patient who was fully vaccinated.

    "At this point this really is a preventable illness, a preventable infection," a county health official said, according to NBC LA
    I posted this already down thread....they are a hostage to fortune. How many areas of a country or a whole countries made stupid claims about COVID, we are beating it, not a problem here....we are now down to literally China...New Zealand...erhhh Nigeria?....maybe South Korea sorta, who can say we got this under control.

    Again law of small numbers....they only have a small number of cases at the moment, and Delta variant isn't at the 80-90% levels it is here yet.

    I am not placing too much weight in either Israel saying it doesn't work as well (as our numbers say it does at the moment) or one county in the US saying things ok here working perfectly.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,672

    Interesting piece on why the JCVI is not recommending shortening the interval between doses of the Pfizer vaccine:

    Professor Anthony Harnden, the JCVI’s deputy chair [said] "we concentrated on the Pfizer vaccine because of course that’s one that’s being given to younger people at the moment.

    “And it’s quite clear from antibody T-cells studies that you get much lower response, and poorer quality memory response with the shorter interval — that’s a four-week interval compared to an eight-to-12-week interval. And the actual real data vaccine effectiveness studies show that there is a lower vaccine efficacy against symptomatic disease with shorter intervals compared to longer intervals.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/infections-will-rise-if-interval-between-vaccines-is-further-reduced-advisers-warn-lrhzzq28r [£££]

    They modelled the effect of reducing the interval and found it would make things worse in terms of the number of cases.

    That is strikingly different from the approach of most other countries and the advice of Pfizer themselves.

    That literally doesn't make any sense, at least making things worse in terms of cases. More second doses now that our first dose programme is finished takes people up from around 50% efficacy against infection to around 95% efficacy against infection in the very short term. If may cause issues down the line in November but we can deal with that by extending a booster programme to all ages and give under 40s a booster shot of Novavax. In late October and November. We could easily do all 15m under 40s within 3 weeks by then given expected supply.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,047
    I agree with much (almost all) of what Cyclefree says but bad laws to "send signals" that make good headlines, rather than fix problems, massively predate this administration stretching all the way back to Blair.

    That doesn't excuse what's being done now but to heap opprobrium for all of it just on Boris isn't accurate. Politicians have found it's worked for them in managing problems and perceptions, so they've kept doing it.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,707
    Carnyx said:

    I can't say, but not all NGOs are legally charities these days. From memory War on Want isn't.

    In any case RNLI is in a difficult position given the demographic (and location!) of many of its key supporters. It has to steer a careful course.
    War on Want is both a Charity and a Company Limited by Guarantee. Both are similarly regulated, and I think the main difference is the liability of "trustees" vs limited liability of Directors.

    But there are plenty of charities that make political campaigns - Oxfam, for example, have been publishing weakly argued guff about so-called 'tax justice' for many years now.

    They are currently waging a campaign on the suspension of Vaccine Patents, despite it being obvious that that will not make the blindest bit of difference.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,298
    Mr. Royale, this ties in with something I bang on about every so often: the terrible state of political reporting in this country which is fixated on personalities over policies and laws.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited July 2021
    After today's PMQs the right wing commentators that exist out there are really noticing Johnson's total lack of principle or conviction in the face of left wing pressure.

    Words like spineless, gutless, cowardly etc. are being bandied about much more often.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,707
    darkage said:

    with regard to Mc Donalds being convenient, that is not true. It takes the same time to get the food from Mc Donalds than it does to cook a fresh stir fry, or a microwaved baked potato with beans ie about 10 minutes, both of which are options that require almost no skills or equipment and cost less than £1 per person to feed a family. I like an occasional McDonalds but it is a health and financial disaster if it is part of your everyday diet.

    I find with dieting, which I do at least once a year - for me it is just a case of trying to keep going for more than a month. It helps to think of the diet only really starting until you have done 6 weeks. Otherwise the old habits return and the weight just goes back on. From experience of the people I know you need some sort of shock: ie a significant health crisis to force you to really make long term changes.

    Very low on carb, microwaved potatoes with beans :smile: .
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    Growing despair at the state of the two main parties by the politically engaged will drive support to the LDs. Early signs of something big brewing?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,420
    I've got the all clear to go to Sandwich tomorrow. I see there's been plenty of bitching from the players:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/golf/article-9785201/Lumpy-sandwich-leaving-sour-taste-Brooks-Koepka-lay-unfair-Open-course.html

    Of the Open venues I've been to, Royal St George's is easily my favourite. Looks like a decent strength wind coming off the North Sea, which should make things interesting. :)
  • Greens in turmoil as co-leader Sian Berry quits over 'inconsistencies' around trans issues...

    Sian Berry has announced she will not be standing for re-election as co-leader of the Greens over her concerns the party is sending “mixed messages” around trans rights. The London Assembly member said she felt there was an “inconsistency” around her pledge to fight for equality for transgender people and the party’s choice of spokespeople.

    The Greens are in the process of fluffing a big opportunity for them after an excellent set of local elections.

    They do, I'm afraid, badly need to professionalise. Their leadership model just doesn't work.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    FF43 said:

    The "Never mind the law, trust what the government says" line, which gets an airing from certain commentators here, seems a little inadequate. About a government that only yesterday reneged on its manifesto and legal commitments on aid.
    Except that isn't true. The "legal commitment" gave reasons that it might not be able to be met, including financial circumstances, and said that if that was the case it gave provision for statements in Parliament to resolve it.

    The financial circumstances have changed theres been a statement in Parliament and a vote to resolve it, as per the law.

    No legal commitment reneged on. The law was followed.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,461
    edited July 2021

    IANAE, but geology can almost always be engineered out by altering the boring machine or tunnelling technique. This is one of the reasons why I think Musk's Boring Company is on a hiding to nothing: they seem to want one type of boring machine for any type of ground.

    If the French could build a subway and station through mud under the Seine by freezing the ground 120 years ago, we can build in Guildford.
    What Musk is reaching for is automating/reducing the workforce/vertical integration. The enormous layering of contracting out the counteracting out of the contracting out that goes on in big infrastructure projects bears a striking resemblance to the organisational structure used in big aerospace.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,047

    I’m a big exponent of English food today.
    However, the reality is that English food has traditionally been a sub-par and long the butt of others’ jokes.

    England is (was?) very good at inventing team sports, parliamentary democracy, garden design, and literature. Good sense of humour, probably to deal with class anxiety.

    Not that great on on visual art, and classical music. At least compared to the neighbours.

    Very poor on food.
    I remember a time when "good food" was seen as effeminate and a bit French.

    We took pride in its plainness as a sign of our stoicism and virility, strange as it sounds.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,407
    MattW said:

    Very low on carb, microwaved potatoes with beans :smile: .
    Good fibre though in the potato skin, and beans are good for both protein and soluble fibre.

    The problem of obesity in the poor is very real, but much more complex than not having the money.

    Cheap fatty salty sugary foods are a simple pleasure in lives with little else. It is the same reason that the poor smoke and drink more. The poverty is not just financial, though that is real, it is poverty of skills, poverty of social capital and very often poverty of ambition. Just getting through the day is often the only real target. Dead end lives need simple transient pleasures. When people have something to live for, they get the motivation to live better.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,188
    tlg86 said:

    I've got the all clear to go to Sandwich tomorrow. I see there's been plenty of bitching from the players:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/golf/article-9785201/Lumpy-sandwich-leaving-sour-taste-Brooks-Koepka-lay-unfair-Open-course.html

    Of the Open venues I've been to, Royal St George's is easily my favourite. Looks like a decent strength wind coming off the North Sea, which should make things interesting. :)

    Enjoy.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,508

    After today's PMQs the right wing commentators that exist out there are really noticing Johnson's total lack of principle or conviction in the face of left wing pressure.

    Words like spineless, gutless, cowardly etc. are being bandied about much more often.

    Exactly. Why do all the work pandering to get the racism and bigotry vote if you're going to fold so easily? Its only a couple of days ago they were attacking Rashford for interfering with politics and now he is getting eulogised like he is a saint.

    The PM really does blow in the wind....
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,871

    What Musk is reaching for is automating/reducing the workforce/vertical integration. The enormous layering of contracting out the counteracting out of the contracting out that goes on in big infrastructure projects bears a striking resemblance to the organisational structure used in big aerospace.
    I can see that, but AIUI it's not the case with actual tunnelling, which is fairly efficient.

    The problem occurs with the later parts: take Crossrail, where the tunnelling went quite well, but the mess started with the fitting out. Musk is essentially ignoring this part by using the simplest possible solution inside the tunnel.
  • JosephGJosephG Posts: 30
    eek said:

    Can you provide a court judgment that backs up that assertion. Courts usually play a straight bat here and will allow the arguments of the two sides to sway the end result.
    Pepper (H.M.I.T.) v. Hart [1992] UKHL 3
  • GnudGnud Posts: 298
    edited July 2021
    If Britgov wanted to renege on its obligation under international maritime law (Article 98 of UNCLOS, "Duty to render assistance") to assist those who are in distress at sea, wouldn't it have to notify the UN formally to that effect?

    The "red meat" of letting a boatful of migrants drown is something the Powellites in this country have been slavering for for decades. (Often they will refer to Australia in this connection.) They got Brexit. They got the okay from a cabinet minister for loutishly booing the English football team for taking the knee. Drowned migrants followed by a "serves them right" statement by the prime minister may be next on the list. I have even heard some of them say that such inhumanity would be "brave".

    Meanwhile Dominic Cummings says Labour could walk the next general election if they focused on addressing the problem of "violent crime". Talk about moving the Overton window...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,407

    The Greens are in the process of fluffing a big opportunity for them after an excellent set of local elections.

    They do, I'm afraid, badly need to professionalise. Their leadership model just doesn't work.
    I would disagree. I rather like the rather anarchic decentered nature of Green leadership. They should not copy the cult of personality that the big parties have chosen.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,397
    edited July 2021
    JosephG said:

    Pepper (H.M.I.T.) v. Hart [1992] UKHL 3
    From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper_(Inspector_of_Taxes)_v_Hart

    Since Lord Steyn's lecture, several judicial decisions have limited the use of Pepper by the courts; the result of these changes, according to Stefan Vogenauer, is that "the scope of Pepper v Hart has been reduced to such an extent that the ruling has almost become meaningless".[2] https://www.jstor.org/stable/3600612 and https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=2Y6cAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA288&lpg=PA288&dq="the+scope+of+Pepper+v+Hart+has+been+reduced+to+such+an+extent+that+the+ruling+has+almost+become+meaningless"+Vogenauer&source=bl&ots=CPbzT1cFfv&sig=ACfU3U1HGXOAFwYsh3gOr2S-b67xkcZLxw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiy6-6fyuLxAhVhRUEAHXhgBRQQ6AEwBHoECAIQAw#v=onepage&q="the scope of Pepper v Hart has been reduced to such an extent that the ruling has almost become meaningless" Vogenauer&f=false
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Exactly. Why do all the work pandering to get the racism and bigotry vote if you're going to fold so easily? Its only a couple of days ago they were attacking Rashford for interfering with politics and now he is getting eulogised like he is a saint.

    The PM really does blow in the wind....
    Who was attacking Rashford?

    On this site just about HYUFD and a racist prick who got banned. HYUFD was roundly condemned by Big G, myself and a great many other Tories for his nonsense
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,766

    Except that isn't true. The "legal commitment" gave reasons that it might not be able to be met, including financial circumstances, and said that if that was the case it gave provision for statements in Parliament to resolve it.

    The financial circumstances have changed theres been a statement in Parliament and a vote to resolve it, as per the law.

    No legal commitment reneged on. The law was followed.
    That presupposes the government is actually constrained by those circumstances and is disapplying its commitment to the least extent possible. It isn't. That's why it changed the law, which it has the power to do. But it's like principles. If we don't like this law, we can have others. Why would anyone believe them when even their laws aren't worth the paper they are written on?
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,507

    I agree with much (almost all) of what Cyclefree says but bad laws to "send signals" that make good headlines, rather than fix problems, massively predate this administration stretching all the way back to Blair.

    That doesn't excuse what's being done now but to heap opprobrium for all of it just on Boris isn't accurate. Politicians have found it's worked for them in managing problems and perceptions, so they've kept doing it.

    Some of us still remember the Dangerous Dogs Act.

    We might coin a name for these laws that governments seek to bring in purely for electoral posturing instead of concrete need regardless of the legal consequences. Virtue Signalling Legislation perhaps?
  • GnudGnud Posts: 298
    edited July 2021
    eek said:

    And as people have pointed out earlier

    1) People are not being taught how to cook

    2) People who haven't been shown how to do things are often too scared to try to do those things themselves

    3) People may not enjoy cooking and would rather watch TV - it's highly possible that cooking takes an hour and results in no thanks from the rest of the family.

    You can see why people may go for the easier options.
    This list applies to many other skills too, such as spelling, punctuating, or beginning to know what stuff is really about - from supermarket self-checkouts to the smartphone plague - or just making an effort to have some self-respect. This is the "deskilling of everyday life".
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited July 2021
    FF43 said:

    That presupposes the government is actually constrained by those circumstances and is disapplying its commitment to the least extent possible. It isn't. That's why it changed the law, which it has the power to do. But it's like principles. If we don't like this law, we can have others. Why would anyone believe them when even their laws aren't worth the paper they are written on?
    They haven't changed the law, that would take an Act of Parliament.

    They've issued a statement within the confines of the existing law, following the procedure laid down within the existing law.

    No law change has occurred. Exercising a provision of a law is not a change in the law.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,325
    JosephG said:

    Pepper (H.M.I.T.) v. Hart [1992] UKHL 3
    So the RNLI or Joe Public in a boat has to pay a fortune for a defence team to confirm something that should be confirmed in the first place in Parliament?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,461

    I can see that, but AIUI it's not the case with actual tunnelling, which is fairly efficient.

    The problem occurs with the later parts: take Crossrail, where the tunnelling went quite well, but the mess started with the fitting out. Musk is essentially ignoring this part by using the simplest possible solution inside the tunnel.
    Well, yes - by reducing the complexity of the solution, the method becomes easier.

    For example, using ethernet (essentially) on your rocket was considered insane. But it reduces the cabling complexity by orders of magnitude, and runs over fibre nicely, so you don't have to worry about antenna effects.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,261
    Phil said:


    Some of us still remember the Dangerous Dogs Act.

    We might coin a name for these laws that governments seek to bring in purely for electoral posturing instead of concrete need regardless of the legal consequences. Virtue Signalling Legislation perhaps?
    Section 28, too. Dumb, posturing legislation is a depressing constant in political life, whoever is in charge.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,712
    edited July 2021
    darkage said:

    with regard to the RNLI problem, on reflection it looks more and more like the problem may rest with Priti Patel. She acts from the gut and tries to drive through what she thinks is right, and has had a good run, with a bit of luck. However, she has never come across as being particularly appreciative of the nuances of her position, in the manner that Amber Rudd and Theresa May were.

    I broadly agree. Maybe that's because Priti Patel is too interested in gesture politics, even more so than the England football team? Her 'solutions' are those that appeal to her Essex base, rather than focusing on the extraordinary complexity of resolving the migrant/asylum seeker issue. Diplomatic skills may also be helpful, I guess, in discussions with the French and others.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    Exactly. Why do all the work pandering to get the racism and bigotry vote if you're going to fold so easily? Its only a couple of days ago they were attacking Rashford for interfering with politics and now he is getting eulogised like he is a saint.

    The PM really does blow in the wind....
    I also reckon Johnson wobbled very badly in the run up to the decision on freedom day. Indeed, I wonder if the only thing that kept it on track was the threat of a senior resignation or two. Sunak hinted it was July 19 or never for him, for example.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,047
    Phil said:


    Some of us still remember the Dangerous Dogs Act.

    We might coin a name for these laws that governments seek to bring in purely for electoral posturing instead of concrete need regardless of the legal consequences. Virtue Signalling Legislation perhaps?
    True, but I've never made my mind up about the Dangerous Dogs Act.

    The trouble is there are quite a lot of dangerous dogs around, badly handled or treated by bad owners too, and quite frankly some of them terrify me, so I'm not sure how repeal would make things better.

    Is there an alternative?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,508

    Who was attacking Rashford?

    On this site just about HYUFD and a racist prick who got banned. HYUFD was roundly condemned by Big G, myself and a great many other Tories for his nonsense
    If you recall Essicks Massiv said that he was supported by his fellow Tories. We then had some Tory MP repeat his comments word for word which suggests a WhatsApp "line to take".
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,871

    Well, yes - by reducing the complexity of the solution, the method becomes easier.

    For example, using ethernet (essentially) on your rocket was considered insane. But it reduces the cabling complexity by orders of magnitude, and runs over fibre nicely, so you don't have to worry about antenna effects.
    Yes... but as I said the other day, the complexity of the systems are often necessary, e.g. for safety. These systems are really easy to miss when you design a new system to save money, it can have significant later costs.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,325

    True, but I've never made my mind up about the Dangerous Dogs Act.

    The trouble is there are quite a lot of dangerous dogs around, badly handled or treated by bad owners too, and quite frankly some of them terrify me, so I'm not sure how repeal would make things better.

    Is there an alternative?
    Put down the owners?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,606

    Interesting piece on why the JCVI is not recommending shortening the interval between doses of the Pfizer vaccine:

    Professor Anthony Harnden, the JCVI’s deputy chair [said] "we concentrated on the Pfizer vaccine because of course that’s one that’s being given to younger people at the moment.

    “And it’s quite clear from antibody T-cells studies that you get much lower response, and poorer quality memory response with the shorter interval — that’s a four-week interval compared to an eight-to-12-week interval. And the actual real data vaccine effectiveness studies show that there is a lower vaccine efficacy against symptomatic disease with shorter intervals compared to longer intervals.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/infections-will-rise-if-interval-between-vaccines-is-further-reduced-advisers-warn-lrhzzq28r [£££]

    They modelled the effect of reducing the interval and found it would make things worse in terms of the number of cases.

    That is strikingly different from the approach of most other countries and the advice of Pfizer themselves.

    Just in time to pish in Jackie Baillie's plate of chips - and Mr Sarwar's too. SLAB demanding 4 weeks in Scotland yeserday as their secret weapon against the SNP ...
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Interesting that Cyclefree does not mention in my view the most draconian of the government's measures - the compulsory vaccination of care workers.

    Surely there are going to be all kinds of problems here.

    Recruitment problems. Dismissal cases, Privacy law, Human rights cases. Equality law caes. Has this not opened up a gigantic can of worms?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    eek said:

    It actually doesn't.

    I'm in the 45-49 group and been double jabbed. Those aged 65-9 qualified for their second jabs months ago...
    My apologies - I'm talking about Spain!
  • If only Blair was around.

    He could call Johnson what he really is: WEAK, WEAK, WEAK
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,556

    If you recall Essicks Massiv said that he was supported by his fellow Tories. We then had some Tory MP repeat his comments word for word which suggests a WhatsApp "line to take".
    Most likely is that in a six degrees of separation thing, or maybe even by a member of the group, HYUFD was sent the WhatsApp message and thought he would parade his Tory insider credentials by reposting it here.

    Did he think about it? No. As we have agreed - for the current band of Conservatives it is more important to be part of a groupthink than for that groupthink to be queried as to its moral value.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,461

    Yes... but as I said the other day, the complexity of the systems are often necessary, e.g. for safety. These systems are really easy to miss when you design a new system to save money, it can have significant later costs.
    Designing a system to be more complex to increase safety is often a bad sign. Since the complexity is then a great place for bugs to hide in.

    Designing a system to be less efficient, but simpler is often a good way to increase reliability.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,407
    Floater said:
    So the LOTO is lying and misleading Parliament? Makes a change from the PM, I suppose...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,959
    edited July 2021
    The hotspots — which also includes Mallorca and Menorca — have suffered a sharp rises in cases.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9786817/Ibiza-Mallorca-Menorca-added-amber-list.html

    Caused by super spreading flint dildo knappers?

    This is really going to piss people off...the in, out, shake it all about..
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,712
    Floater said:
    Are you (or Guido) suggesting that our Prime Minister is not capable of saying directly contradictory things in the blink of an eye, as he did on this one and many others?
  • Boris Johnson said he'd never put a border down the Irish Sea!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,461

    Interesting that Cyclefree does not mention in my view the most draconian of the government's measures - the compulsory vaccination of care workers.

    Surely there are going to be all kinds of problems here.

    Recruitment problems. Dismissal cases, Privacy law, Human rights cases. Equality law caes. Has this not opened up a gigantic can of worms?

    There is a fair amount of case law, I believe, on medical requirements to have vaccinations for some jobs.
This discussion has been closed.