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Legislation Watch: three planned changes that will limit our freedoms – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited July 14 in General
imageLegislation Watch: three planned changes that will limit our freedoms – politicalbetting.com

Never mind “Not Quite Freedom Day”. While few have been noticing, the government is busy trying to introduce some pernicious new principles into our laws which will limit our freedoms even as we are finally allowed not to wear masks.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 216
    Andy_JS said:

    NEW: Sydney's coronavirus lockdown has been extended for at least 2 weeks

    I assume with a number of cases that would be viewed as extremely small over here.
    They are trying to maintain zero Covid, of course, but Delta is making their lives very difficult. The plague has been spread to Melbourne by some furniture removal men from Sydney (cue blind panic - wouldn't be surprised if they're back in lockdown by the end of the week,) and Western Australia has extended its ban on travel from New South Wales for another two months.

    Utter desperation to suppress Covid presumably derives from combination of past success and current and future worries about Australia's hopeless vaccine rollout (the federal government is copping a lot of flak for this and trying to deflect it onto scapegoats, the latest apparently being Australia's equivalent of the JCVI.) With a combination of factors like that, you have to wonder how many years, rather than months, the country may elect to keep on trying to isolate itself from the rest of the world.

    And meanwhile, more than a year into this mess, something like 35,000 Australian citizens are still locked out of the country, many in dire financial and personal circumstances.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 216
    On topic: this is a wretched Government, aided and abetted by an equally wretched Opposition. It'll be interesting to see whether or not Labour attempts to vote the Online Safety Bill down. The cynic in me says that they won't, because all the "psychological harm" guff could've been custom-built to appeal to the kind of online activist type that is mortally offended by almost everything, and cynicism is normally justified in this day and age. But we shall see.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 18,926
    It is likely to prove ineffective as it will be easy enough to say that trafficked passengers in small boats crossing one of the busiest shipping lanes in the world are likely to be in distress.

    But only once they've made it halfway...

    Whilst I don't think we should seek to lower ourselves to the standards of the French, it's worth considering that when it comes to it, much of the rest of the world doesn't get hung up about this sort of thing in the way that we do.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 40,502
    edited July 14
    The irony of @Cyclefree saying (correctly) that this government has no understanding of British Values is that it was Michael Gove who actually came up with them.

    I mean, as codified they are a load of nebulous and wildly inaccurate bullshit, but the paradox of them designing a ‘British Values’ system and then systematically ignoring it with legislation like this is quite funny.

    Or would be if they weren’t such nasty human beings.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 29,849
    I agree that words from the Home Office are not good enough, even if, as I suspect, the courts would throw out any attempt to prosecute member of the RNLI. But, they should not face the risk of prosecution.

    The Online Safety Bill sounds pretty awful.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 34,764
    edited July 14
    ydoethur said:

    The irony of @Cyclefree saying (correctly) that this government has no understanding of British Values is that it was Michael Gove who actually came up with them.

    I mean, as codified they are a load of nebulous and wildly inaccurate bullshit, but the paradox of them designing a ‘British Values’ system and then systematically ignoring it with legislation like this is quite funny.

    Or would be if they weren’t such nasty human beings.

    The analytical series on rethinking education, that R4 ran last week, was notable for how critical Kenneth Baker was of Gove and his education reforms.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 23,276
    I'd wish everyone a 'Good Morning" as usual, but looking at both Ms Cyclefree's leader and what happened yesterday it isn't really, is it?
    We appear to have a mean-minded, indeed cruel, group of people in Government. If the RNLI is concerned about a proposal, then I would really hope that it's reconsidered.
    But there is, so far, no sign of that.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 23,276
    Sean_F said:

    I agree that words from the Home Office are not good enough, even if, as I suspect, the courts would throw out any attempt to prosecute member of the RNLI. But, they should not face the risk of prosecution.

    The Online Safety Bill sounds pretty awful.

    In my experience there are two groups of people who raise funds for the RNLI; local lifeboatmen, fishermen, yachtspeople and the like, and groups of Tory-seeming ladies in the shires. If the latter get the idea that the RNLI could be criminalised I suggest that a few Conservative MP's might get their ears well and truly bent.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 6,962
    Not sure why Cyclefree is adding her dig at opposition parties in at the end.

    Lab/LD/SNP would oppose at least 2/3 of the above.

    But because lots of people voted Tory (and some didn't vote at all) we are stuck with this situation.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 770

    Sean_F said:

    I agree that words from the Home Office are not good enough, even if, as I suspect, the courts would throw out any attempt to prosecute member of the RNLI. But, they should not face the risk of prosecution.

    The Online Safety Bill sounds pretty awful.

    In my experience there are two groups of people who raise funds for the RNLI; local lifeboatmen, fishermen, yachtspeople and the like, and groups of Tory-seeming ladies in the shires. If the latter get the idea that the RNLI could be criminalised I suggest that a few Conservative MP's might get their ears well and truly bent.
    It is yet another way that Johnson is alienating the raditional Tory base, and as we saw in C&A, people are beginning to vote accordingly.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 40,502
    Cicero said:

    While it could be wishful thinking

    I’m afraid it is. There are numerous headwinds the government will face, but at the moment there is no sign of people abandoning it in favour of another party in sufficient numbers to make a difference.

    Which is one reason why they are getting away with things like this.

    It’s Blair 2003 not Brown 2009.

    Have a good morning.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 34,764
    edited July 14
    CPI 2.5% comes in higher than expected.

    Experts now predicting 4% by year end
  • eekeek Posts: 13,645
    An interesting vote on yesterday's Parliament vote and more significantly why there has been no vote on masks

    https://twitter.com/philipjcowley/status/1415086928039276544

    I suspect this bit is very important

    That the PM is said to think he can't get measures through if it requires opposition support is significant in itself. Blair did it, for example.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 42,262
    edited July 14

    I'd wish everyone a 'Good Morning" as usual, but looking at both Ms Cyclefree's leader and what happened yesterday it isn't really, is it?
    We appear to have a mean-minded, indeed cruel, group of people in Government. If the RNLI is concerned about a proposal, then I would really hope that it's reconsidered.
    But there is, so far, no sign of that.

    I have great respect for @Cyclefree but the issue with the RNLI and rescue at sea will need to be addressed, but I can say with certainty that my son, who has just joined the RNLI following a long tradition of both our families involvement in the sea and fishing for generations, will not be thinking that he will be imprisoned for saving any life at sea

    Indeed as a family the RNLI and our local hospice benefit from all our charity support but then maybe that is understandable

    My wife has lost family members at sea and a nephew in the Piper Alpha disaster in 1988 and the absence of their recovery leaves a terrible yearning of loss
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 35,572
    eek said:

    An interesting vote on yesterday's Parliament vote and more significantly why there has been no vote on masks

    https://twitter.com/philipjcowley/status/1415086928039276544

    I suspect this bit is very important

    That the PM is said to think he can't get measures through if it requires opposition support is significant in itself. Blair did it, for example.

    As we know, the Tories always put party before country.

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 42,262
    edited July 14
    ydoethur said:

    Cicero said:

    While it could be wishful thinking

    I’m afraid it is. There are numerous headwinds the government will face, but at the moment there is no sign of people abandoning it in favour of another party in sufficient numbers to make a difference.

    Which is one reason why they are getting away with things like this.

    It’s Blair 2003 not Brown 2009.

    Have a good morning.
    There was an article on Sky news website re foreign aid and it warned labour that with 66% support in the latest poll to reduce the aid budget it risks being on the wrong side off the argument
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 16,380
    This lot have been in too long, they need a period of reflection in opposition. It’s pretty obvious now.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 42,262
    IanB2 said:

    CPI 2.5% comes in higher than expected.

    Experts now predicting 4% by year end

    Actually I think this is a real issue for the US and UK going forward and I am not at all certain how it is dealt with
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 16,380

    ydoethur said:

    Cicero said:

    While it could be wishful thinking

    I’m afraid it is. There are numerous headwinds the government will face, but at the moment there is no sign of people abandoning it in favour of another party in sufficient numbers to make a difference.

    Which is one reason why they are getting away with things like this.

    It’s Blair 2003 not Brown 2009.

    Have a good morning.
    There was an article on Sky news website re foreign aid and it warned labour that with 66% support in the latest poll to reduce the aid budget it risks bring on the wrong side off the argument
    That’s a very populist point of view of what constitutes the wrong side of an argument, I fear you’ve caught the Boris variant and may need to self isolate.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 42,262

    I'd wish everyone a 'Good Morning" as usual, but looking at both Ms Cyclefree's leader and what happened yesterday it isn't really, is it?
    We appear to have a mean-minded, indeed cruel, group of people in Government. If the RNLI is concerned about a proposal, then I would really hope that it's reconsidered.
    But there is, so far, no sign of that.

    I have great respect for @Cyclefree but the issue with the RNLI and rescue at sea will need to be addressed, but I can say with certainty that my son, who has just joined the RNLI following a long tradition of both our families involvement in the sea and fishing for generations, will not be thinking that he will be imprisoned for saving any life at sea

    Indeed as a family the RNLI and our local hospice benefit from all our charity support but then maybe that is understandable

    My wife has lost family members at sea and a nephew in the Piper Alpha disaster in 1988 and the absence of their recovery leaves a terrible yearning of loss

    Whoever becomes the first RNLI volunteer imprisoned as a result of Patel's law will not have imagined that it could have happened to them.

    And you really think this will happen
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 42,262
    Jonathan said:

    This lot have been in too long, they need a period of reflection in opposition. It’s pretty obvious now.

    The polls are remarkably steady with around 8-10% conservative leads, so maybe the opposition parties should ask themselves what are they going to do to change perceptions rather than keep saying it is all coming to an end for the conservatives
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 35,572

    I'd wish everyone a 'Good Morning" as usual, but looking at both Ms Cyclefree's leader and what happened yesterday it isn't really, is it?
    We appear to have a mean-minded, indeed cruel, group of people in Government. If the RNLI is concerned about a proposal, then I would really hope that it's reconsidered.
    But there is, so far, no sign of that.

    I have great respect for @Cyclefree but the issue with the RNLI and rescue at sea will need to be addressed, but I can say with certainty that my son, who has just joined the RNLI following a long tradition of both our families involvement in the sea and fishing for generations, will not be thinking that he will be imprisoned for saving any life at sea

    Indeed as a family the RNLI and our local hospice benefit from all our charity support but then maybe that is understandable

    My wife has lost family members at sea and a nephew in the Piper Alpha disaster in 1988 and the absence of their recovery leaves a terrible yearning of loss

    Whoever becomes the first RNLI volunteer imprisoned as a result of Patel's law will not have imagined that it could have happened to them.

    And you really think this will happen

    I think that once a law is there it is likely to be used, yes. Across the world people believe "it could not happen here", until it does.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 23,276

    I'd wish everyone a 'Good Morning" as usual, but looking at both Ms Cyclefree's leader and what happened yesterday it isn't really, is it?
    We appear to have a mean-minded, indeed cruel, group of people in Government. If the RNLI is concerned about a proposal, then I would really hope that it's reconsidered.
    But there is, so far, no sign of that.

    I have great respect for @Cyclefree but the issue with the RNLI and rescue at sea will need to be addressed, but I can say with certainty that my son, who has just joined the RNLI following a long tradition of both our families involvement in the sea and fishing for generations, will not be thinking that he will be imprisoned for saving any life at sea

    Indeed as a family the RNLI and our local hospice benefit from all our charity support but then maybe that is understandable

    My wife has lost family members at sea and a nephew in the Piper Alpha disaster in 1988 and the absence of their recovery leaves a terrible yearning of loss

    Whoever becomes the first RNLI volunteer imprisoned as a result of Patel's law will not have imagined that it could have happened to them.

    IANAL, but am I not right in thinking that even if, for example a magistrate were to convict someone, and impose a nominal penalty (say 1p) that would still be a 'conviction', and might have all sorts of consequences?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 42,262

    I'd wish everyone a 'Good Morning" as usual, but looking at both Ms Cyclefree's leader and what happened yesterday it isn't really, is it?
    We appear to have a mean-minded, indeed cruel, group of people in Government. If the RNLI is concerned about a proposal, then I would really hope that it's reconsidered.
    But there is, so far, no sign of that.

    I have great respect for @Cyclefree but the issue with the RNLI and rescue at sea will need to be addressed, but I can say with certainty that my son, who has just joined the RNLI following a long tradition of both our families involvement in the sea and fishing for generations, will not be thinking that he will be imprisoned for saving any life at sea

    Indeed as a family the RNLI and our local hospice benefit from all our charity support but then maybe that is understandable

    My wife has lost family members at sea and a nephew in the Piper Alpha disaster in 1988 and the absence of their recovery leaves a terrible yearning of loss

    Whoever becomes the first RNLI volunteer imprisoned as a result of Patel's law will not have imagined that it could have happened to them.

    And you really think this will happen

    I think that once a law is there it is likely to be used, yes. Across the world people believe "it could not happen here", until it does.

    I understand the law is not there yet, so maybe revisit this once it is on the statute
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 5,364
    Cicero said:

    While it could be wishful thinking, I sense a sea change coming. The Nasty Party, blue in tooth and claw, is beginning to take a bit of punishment. Labour and the Lib Dems are increasingly stronger. There is genuine outrage at several of the decisions of the government and a sense that they - not just Johnson- are not actually up to the job. Its a slow burn and the polls are only showing a slight negative trend for the Tories, but "the trend is your friend".

    I wonder if at the next election, whenever it comes, there might not be a wholesale "throw the B%&tards out", as there was in 1997.

    It could happen.

    I bloody well hope so. I am utterly sick of these wretched people trashing the country.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 16,380

    Jonathan said:

    This lot have been in too long, they need a period of reflection in opposition. It’s pretty obvious now.

    The polls are remarkably steady with around 8-10% conservative leads, so maybe the opposition parties should ask themselves what are they going to do to change perceptions rather than keep saying it is all coming to an end for the conservatives
    You really have the populism bug bad. We all know where the polls are. It doesn’t change that this lot are governing with a degree of arrogance you see when a party has been in too long. Historically, the polls tend to stay up for a while when this happens, but they then crash and crash hard as the consequences of bad government become clearer.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 42,262
    edited July 14
    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cicero said:

    While it could be wishful thinking

    I’m afraid it is. There are numerous headwinds the government will face, but at the moment there is no sign of people abandoning it in favour of another party in sufficient numbers to make a difference.

    Which is one reason why they are getting away with things like this.

    It’s Blair 2003 not Brown 2009.

    Have a good morning.
    There was an article on Sky news website re foreign aid and it warned labour that with 66% support in the latest poll to reduce the aid budget it risks bring on the wrong side off the argument
    That’s a very populist point of view of what constitutes the wrong side of an argument, I fear you’ve caught the Boris variant and may need to self isolate.
    I am completely neutral on the subject, but it's no use calling populism when in truth the argument has not been made by the third who do not support the reduction in foreign aid

    And by the way, it was Sky news website who made the comment
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 28,079
    Course it was, you fluffy coiffured twerp.

    https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1415196207043973121?s=21
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 16,380

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cicero said:

    While it could be wishful thinking

    I’m afraid it is. There are numerous headwinds the government will face, but at the moment there is no sign of people abandoning it in favour of another party in sufficient numbers to make a difference.

    Which is one reason why they are getting away with things like this.

    It’s Blair 2003 not Brown 2009.

    Have a good morning.
    There was an article on Sky news website re foreign aid and it warned labour that with 66% support in the latest poll to reduce the aid budget it risks bring on the wrong side off the argument
    That’s a very populist point of view of what constitutes the wrong side of an argument, I fear you’ve caught the Boris variant and may need to self isolate.
    I am completely neutral on the subject, but it's no use calling populism when in truth the argument has not been made by the third who do not support the reduction in foreign aid

    And by the way, it was Sky news website who made the comment
    When you call an argument right or wrong based on what a poll says, I’ll call you a populist.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 42,262
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cicero said:

    While it could be wishful thinking

    I’m afraid it is. There are numerous headwinds the government will face, but at the moment there is no sign of people abandoning it in favour of another party in sufficient numbers to make a difference.

    Which is one reason why they are getting away with things like this.

    It’s Blair 2003 not Brown 2009.

    Have a good morning.
    There was an article on Sky news website re foreign aid and it warned labour that with 66% support in the latest poll to reduce the aid budget it risks bring on the wrong side off the argument
    That’s a very populist point of view of what constitutes the wrong side of an argument, I fear you’ve caught the Boris variant and may need to self isolate.
    I am completely neutral on the subject, but it's no use calling populism when in truth the argument has not been made by the third who do not support the reduction in foreign aid

    And by the way, it was Sky news website who made the comment
    When you call an argument right or wrong based on what a poll says, I’ll call you a populist.
    OK. Sky are populist then
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 35,572
    Foxy said:

    Great stuff from @Cyclefree

    I cannot recall a time when we had a government so keen to trash British values. The re-toxification of the Nasty Party is in full swing.

    It will not happen just yet, but when this government falls, it is going to be remembered as one of the worst in modern British history.

    The triple lock and high house prices seal in a very large demographic for the Tories. The challenge the opposition parties have is to get turnouts among younger age groups higher. That said, I think that tactical voting - especially in the south - is on course to return to 1990s levels. Current Tory retoxification will have electoral consequences.

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 42,262
    Sadig Khan asked about Cressida Dick's failure over the weekend in London said it is the hooligans that are to blame

    The idea Sadiq is that the police maintain order
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 1,045

    I'd wish everyone a 'Good Morning" as usual, but looking at both Ms Cyclefree's leader and what happened yesterday it isn't really, is it?
    We appear to have a mean-minded, indeed cruel, group of people in Government. If the RNLI is concerned about a proposal, then I would really hope that it's reconsidered.
    But there is, so far, no sign of that.

    I have great respect for @Cyclefree but the issue with the RNLI and rescue at sea will need to be addressed, but I can say with certainty that my son, who has just joined the RNLI following a long tradition of both our families involvement in the sea and fishing for generations, will not be thinking that he will be imprisoned for saving any life at sea

    Indeed as a family the RNLI and our local hospice benefit from all our charity support but then maybe that is understandable

    My wife has lost family members at sea and a nephew in the Piper Alpha disaster in 1988 and the absence of their recovery leaves a terrible yearning of loss
    I have great respect for the RNLI and other national charities which are filling a hole left by National Governments of many years, but I still think this lack of a clarification is a giant loophole for any disreputable government to crawl through. I did ask a question a few days ago which no-one answered, which was what if you were an amatuer sailor in a small pleasure boat off shore from essex/kent etc. If you spot an asylum seeker dinghy shipping water, do you leave them to drown or do you risk fines and imprisonment by saving their lives?

  • Those inflation numbers are interesting indeed.

    I wonder if the BoE has forecast what the impact would be if/when we return to 'normalized' interest rates of circa 5% given we've been on close to zero for so long now?

    Would surely have a major impact given the levels of household debt and cheap credit swirling round the system?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 35,572

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cicero said:

    While it could be wishful thinking

    I’m afraid it is. There are numerous headwinds the government will face, but at the moment there is no sign of people abandoning it in favour of another party in sufficient numbers to make a difference.

    Which is one reason why they are getting away with things like this.

    It’s Blair 2003 not Brown 2009.

    Have a good morning.
    There was an article on Sky news website re foreign aid and it warned labour that with 66% support in the latest poll to reduce the aid budget it risks bring on the wrong side off the argument
    That’s a very populist point of view of what constitutes the wrong side of an argument, I fear you’ve caught the Boris variant and may need to self isolate.
    I am completely neutral on the subject, but it's no use calling populism when in truth the argument has not been made by the third who do not support the reduction in foreign aid

    And by the way, it was Sky news website who made the comment
    When you call an argument right or wrong based on what a poll says, I’ll call you a populist.
    OK. Sky are populist then

    Reporting a poll is not the same as justifying a policy based on a poll.

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 42,262

    I'd wish everyone a 'Good Morning" as usual, but looking at both Ms Cyclefree's leader and what happened yesterday it isn't really, is it?
    We appear to have a mean-minded, indeed cruel, group of people in Government. If the RNLI is concerned about a proposal, then I would really hope that it's reconsidered.
    But there is, so far, no sign of that.

    I have great respect for @Cyclefree but the issue with the RNLI and rescue at sea will need to be addressed, but I can say with certainty that my son, who has just joined the RNLI following a long tradition of both our families involvement in the sea and fishing for generations, will not be thinking that he will be imprisoned for saving any life at sea

    Indeed as a family the RNLI and our local hospice benefit from all our charity support but then maybe that is understandable

    My wife has lost family members at sea and a nephew in the Piper Alpha disaster in 1988 and the absence of their recovery leaves a terrible yearning of loss
    I have great respect for the RNLI and other national charities which are filling a hole left by National Governments of many years, but I still think this lack of a clarification is a giant loophole for any disreputable government to crawl through. I did ask a question a few days ago which no-one answered, which was what if you were an amatuer sailor in a small pleasure boat off shore from essex/kent etc. If you spot an asylum seeker dinghy shipping water, do you leave them to drown or do you risk fines and imprisonment by saving their lives?

    You save them
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 363

    I'd wish everyone a 'Good Morning" as usual, but looking at both Ms Cyclefree's leader and what happened yesterday it isn't really, is it?
    We appear to have a mean-minded, indeed cruel, group of people in Government. If the RNLI is concerned about a proposal, then I would really hope that it's reconsidered.
    But there is, so far, no sign of that.

    I have great respect for @Cyclefree but the issue with the RNLI and rescue at sea will need to be addressed, but I can say with certainty that my son, who has just joined the RNLI following a long tradition of both our families involvement in the sea and fishing for generations, will not be thinking that he will be imprisoned for saving any life at sea

    Indeed as a family the RNLI and our local hospice benefit from all our charity support but then maybe that is understandable

    My wife has lost family members at sea and a nephew in the Piper Alpha disaster in 1988 and the absence of their recovery leaves a terrible yearning of loss

    Whoever becomes the first RNLI volunteer imprisoned as a result of Patel's law will not have imagined that it could have happened to them.

    And you really think this will happen

    I think that once a law is there it is likely to be used, yes. Across the world people believe "it could not happen here", until it does.

    The most disturbing example of this is the laws passed in the 2000's that allow the government to revoke the citizenship of people where it is conducive to the public good: bought in for the purpose of deporting terrorists. Fast forward 10 years and it was used by the tories as a form of immigration control, to remove people from the UK who have served a jail sentence and have dual nationality. So, anyone who has, or is eligible for, dual nationality can get their citizenship revoked if they are convicted of crime. You don't think it will happen until it does.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 42,262

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cicero said:

    While it could be wishful thinking

    I’m afraid it is. There are numerous headwinds the government will face, but at the moment there is no sign of people abandoning it in favour of another party in sufficient numbers to make a difference.

    Which is one reason why they are getting away with things like this.

    It’s Blair 2003 not Brown 2009.

    Have a good morning.
    There was an article on Sky news website re foreign aid and it warned labour that with 66% support in the latest poll to reduce the aid budget it risks bring on the wrong side off the argument
    That’s a very populist point of view of what constitutes the wrong side of an argument, I fear you’ve caught the Boris variant and may need to self isolate.
    I am completely neutral on the subject, but it's no use calling populism when in truth the argument has not been made by the third who do not support the reduction in foreign aid

    And by the way, it was Sky news website who made the comment
    When you call an argument right or wrong based on what a poll says, I’ll call you a populist.
    OK. Sky are populist then

    Reporting a poll is not the same as justifying a policy based on a poll.

    Yes but those supporting the retention have not made their case to the public
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 25,169

    I'd wish everyone a 'Good Morning" as usual, but looking at both Ms Cyclefree's leader and what happened yesterday it isn't really, is it?
    We appear to have a mean-minded, indeed cruel, group of people in Government. If the RNLI is concerned about a proposal, then I would really hope that it's reconsidered.
    But there is, so far, no sign of that.

    I have great respect for @Cyclefree but the issue with the RNLI and rescue at sea will need to be addressed, but I can say with certainty that my son, who has just joined the RNLI following a long tradition of both our families involvement in the sea and fishing for generations, will not be thinking that he will be imprisoned for saving any life at sea

    Indeed as a family the RNLI and our local hospice benefit from all our charity support but then maybe that is understandable

    My wife has lost family members at sea and a nephew in the Piper Alpha disaster in 1988 and the absence of their recovery leaves a terrible yearning of loss

    Whoever becomes the first RNLI volunteer imprisoned as a result of Patel's law will not have imagined that it could have happened to them.

    And you really think this will happen

    I think that once a law is there it is likely to be used, yes. Across the world people believe "it could not happen here", until it does.

    I understand the law is not there yet, so maybe revisit this once it is on the statute
    Wouldn't it be better to revisit this before it is on the statute?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 42,262
    Foxy said:

    I'd wish everyone a 'Good Morning" as usual, but looking at both Ms Cyclefree's leader and what happened yesterday it isn't really, is it?
    We appear to have a mean-minded, indeed cruel, group of people in Government. If the RNLI is concerned about a proposal, then I would really hope that it's reconsidered.
    But there is, so far, no sign of that.

    I have great respect for @Cyclefree but the issue with the RNLI and rescue at sea will need to be addressed, but I can say with certainty that my son, who has just joined the RNLI following a long tradition of both our families involvement in the sea and fishing for generations, will not be thinking that he will be imprisoned for saving any life at sea

    Indeed as a family the RNLI and our local hospice benefit from all our charity support but then maybe that is understandable

    My wife has lost family members at sea and a nephew in the Piper Alpha disaster in 1988 and the absence of their recovery leaves a terrible yearning of loss

    Whoever becomes the first RNLI volunteer imprisoned as a result of Patel's law will not have imagined that it could have happened to them.

    And you really think this will happen

    I think that once a law is there it is likely to be used, yes. Across the world people believe "it could not happen here", until it does.

    I understand the law is not there yet, so maybe revisit this once it is on the statute
    Wouldn't it be better to revisit this before it is on the statute?
    Agreed and it will be
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 58,366
    The RNLI thing seems a total nonsense. The government have already said repeatedly that is not what is being targetted, its hard to imagine the CPS finding a public interest in prosecuting the RNLI for lifesaving and its even harder to imagine a jury voting to convict. Plus of course its not been through the Committee or or the Commons or the Lords were the government's clear stated intent that this is not targetting the RNLI can be clarified through amendments if needed.

    The problem with crying wolf is that you end up casting doubt on other issues. The Online Harms Bill, as described, sounds absolutely awful. We should have free speech and having people's feelings hurt is not a reason for the law to get involved.

    But is the Online Harms Bill actually as described? Or is it, like the RNLI one, being rather misrepresented?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 25,169
    IanB2 said:

    CPI 2.5% comes in higher than expected.

    Experts now predicting 4% by year end

    Yes, it is pretty obvious that there is tremendous inflationary pressure on the way.

    Time to end the era of low interest rates and return to normality.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 18,926

    Those inflation numbers are interesting indeed.

    I wonder if the BoE has forecast what the impact would be if/when we return to 'normalized' interest rates of circa 5% given we've been on close to zero for so long now?

    Would surely have a major impact given the levels of household debt and cheap credit swirling round the system?

    Interest rates are never going back to "normal". A lot of people would struggle to pay their mortgages in those circumstances.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 16,380
    tlg86 said:

    Those inflation numbers are interesting indeed.

    I wonder if the BoE has forecast what the impact would be if/when we return to 'normalized' interest rates of circa 5% given we've been on close to zero for so long now?

    Would surely have a major impact given the levels of household debt and cheap credit swirling round the system?

    Interest rates are never going back to "normal". A lot of people would struggle to pay their mortgages in those circumstances.
    Like last time that happened.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 25,169
    tlg86 said:

    Those inflation numbers are interesting indeed.

    I wonder if the BoE has forecast what the impact would be if/when we return to 'normalized' interest rates of circa 5% given we've been on close to zero for so long now?

    Would surely have a major impact given the levels of household debt and cheap credit swirling round the system?

    Interest rates are never going back to "normal". A lot of people would struggle to pay their mortgages in those circumstances.
    It will take some years to normalise, but needs to happen. There needs to be a point in saving.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 11,744

    I'd wish everyone a 'Good Morning" as usual, but looking at both Ms Cyclefree's leader and what happened yesterday it isn't really, is it?
    We appear to have a mean-minded, indeed cruel, group of people in Government. If the RNLI is concerned about a proposal, then I would really hope that it's reconsidered.
    But there is, so far, no sign of that.

    I have great respect for @Cyclefree but the issue with the RNLI and rescue at sea will need to be addressed, but I can say with certainty that my son, who has just joined the RNLI following a long tradition of both our families involvement in the sea and fishing for generations, will not be thinking that he will be imprisoned for saving any life at sea

    Indeed as a family the RNLI and our local hospice benefit from all our charity support but then maybe that is understandable

    My wife has lost family members at sea and a nephew in the Piper Alpha disaster in 1988 and the absence of their recovery leaves a terrible yearning of loss
    We all thank your son and his colleagues for their service. Your initial response though was instructive. Fingers in ears, eyes closed, la la la its not true.

    This government - YOUR government, your party - want to send your son to jail for being a hero.

    And still you support them.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 18,926

    The RNLI thing seems a total nonsense. The government have already said repeatedly that is not what is being targetted, its hard to imagine the CPS finding a public interest in prosecuting the RNLI for lifesaving and its even harder to imagine a jury voting to convict. Plus of course its not been through the Committee or or the Commons or the Lords were the government's clear stated intent that this is not targetting the RNLI can be clarified through amendments if needed.

    The problem with crying wolf is that you end up casting doubt on other issues. The Online Harms Bill, as described, sounds absolutely awful. We should have free speech and having people's feelings hurt is not a reason for the law to get involved.

    But is the Online Harms Bill actually as described? Or is it, like the RNLI one, being rather misrepresented?

    Given all the screeching about online abuse in the last few days, it's hardly a surprise that the government is trying "to be seen to do something".
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 58,366

    Foxy said:

    Great stuff from @Cyclefree

    I cannot recall a time when we had a government so keen to trash British values. The re-toxification of the Nasty Party is in full swing.

    It will not happen just yet, but when this government falls, it is going to be remembered as one of the worst in modern British history.

    The triple lock and high house prices seal in a very large demographic for the Tories. The challenge the opposition parties have is to get turnouts among younger age groups higher. That said, I think that tactical voting - especially in the south - is on course to return to 1990s levels. Current Tory retoxification will have electoral consequences.

    And yet as much as lefties like you complain about the triple lock, when Sunak and Boris hint that the warped "earnings growth" figures need dealing with as wages have not grown 8% this year, we have Labour and lefties like Owen Jones instantly responding that 8% pension rises would be appropriate this year. And when Theresa May campaigned in 2017 to water down the triple lock, one rare thing she actually got right, she was attacked for it of course.

    So what is it that you want?

    If we had a principled opposition that cared about young people then we could have seen Labour campaigning for years in favour of fairness for working age people and saying how unfair the triple lock is. But the opposite happens. Any attempt to address it is turned into a party political third rail.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 18,926
    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Those inflation numbers are interesting indeed.

    I wonder if the BoE has forecast what the impact would be if/when we return to 'normalized' interest rates of circa 5% given we've been on close to zero for so long now?

    Would surely have a major impact given the levels of household debt and cheap credit swirling round the system?

    Interest rates are never going back to "normal". A lot of people would struggle to pay their mortgages in those circumstances.
    It will take some years to normalise, but needs to happen. There needs to be a point in saving.
    You're preaching to the converted! The obvious time to raise rates was from the end of 2012 onwards. But for whatever reason, that idiot Carney and the rest of the MPC didn't think it was the right time.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 58,366
    IanB2 said:

    CPI 2.5% comes in higher than expected.

    Experts now predicting 4% by year end

    That's quite reassuringly low under the circumstances considering the deflation we had in large sectors last year that needed reversing and the economic rebound this year, and all the economic stimulus we've had. Its a lot lower than the Americans are facing.

    If it peaks at only 4% that would be quite reassuring. I was and still am expecting higherr, but temporary.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 11,744
    The government's action is as simple as it is disgraceful. Too many nasty cnuts out there have been so wound up (by the government and their friends in the press) against asylum seekers that they are prompted to make "let them drown" comments when the Nigel goes out on his own boat to film them.

    We know the boats they come in on are not safe. Many need rescuing by the heroes in the RNLI. As someone posted on here, "not a good look" for the RNLI to be rescuing drowning asylum seeking children. These are Tory voters, they deserve a good pander and the sneering one is up for the task.

    So we get this disgrace of a bill. Almost certainly illegal under international law. I wonder if illegal under our own Human Rights Act. The government are happy to propose yet more illegal laws, probably happy to have them struck down by doo-gooder "Enemies of the People" hudges. Anything to virtue signal to the hardcore cnuts in their vote that they are on their side.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 28,079
    tlg86 said:

    The RNLI thing seems a total nonsense. The government have already said repeatedly that is not what is being targetted, its hard to imagine the CPS finding a public interest in prosecuting the RNLI for lifesaving and its even harder to imagine a jury voting to convict. Plus of course its not been through the Committee or or the Commons or the Lords were the government's clear stated intent that this is not targetting the RNLI can be clarified through amendments if needed.

    The problem with crying wolf is that you end up casting doubt on other issues. The Online Harms Bill, as described, sounds absolutely awful. We should have free speech and having people's feelings hurt is not a reason for the law to get involved.

    But is the Online Harms Bill actually as described? Or is it, like the RNLI one, being rather misrepresented?

    Given all the screeching about online abuse in the last few days, it's hardly a surprise that the government is trying "to be seen to do something".
    It’s all them Russian bots’ fault obvs.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 56,149
    Good morning, everyone.

    Concerns raised by the asylum/RNLI bill (particularly if a sailor unwittingly rescues a drowning person who he, er, should've let drown) are entirely valid. It's poorly written law designed for headlines, devoid of competence.

    The late evidence having less weight is similarly bullshit.

    But the Online Safety Bill is the most alarming one. Censorship is on the rise due to the terminally offended, religious zealots, and, in this case, authoritarian government.

    It's far too vague, and further curtails free speech, which needs defending not diminishing. Added to that is the fashionable idiocy of criminality being a subjective matter (as psychological harm is inherently subjective).

    I agree with those who say the government has been in too line if it's coming up with this nonsense, and doing altogether more harm than good. And yet, what is the alternative? The far left remains embedded in Labour, albeit dormant, and Starmer's pathetic kneeling for a cabal of iconoclast race-baiters with a 'philosophy' (I use the term quite wrongly, as philosophy means love of wisdom) imported from America) and his mooted devolution (likely carving England into pieces) do not exactly enthuse me.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 35,572

    Foxy said:

    Great stuff from @Cyclefree

    I cannot recall a time when we had a government so keen to trash British values. The re-toxification of the Nasty Party is in full swing.

    It will not happen just yet, but when this government falls, it is going to be remembered as one of the worst in modern British history.

    The triple lock and high house prices seal in a very large demographic for the Tories. The challenge the opposition parties have is to get turnouts among younger age groups higher. That said, I think that tactical voting - especially in the south - is on course to return to 1990s levels. Current Tory retoxification will have electoral consequences.

    And yet as much as lefties like you complain about the triple lock, when Sunak and Boris hint that the warped "earnings growth" figures need dealing with as wages have not grown 8% this year, we have Labour and lefties like Owen Jones instantly responding that 8% pension rises would be appropriate this year. And when Theresa May campaigned in 2017 to water down the triple lock, one rare thing she actually got right, she was attacked for it of course.

    So what is it that you want?

    If we had a principled opposition that cared about young people then we could have seen Labour campaigning for years in favour of fairness for working age people and saying how unfair the triple lock is. But the opposite happens. Any attempt to address it is turned into a party political third rail.

    Mate, I am not Owen Jones! I think Labour should be campaigning against the triple lock. It is a bung to prosperous Tory voters at the expense of younger people of working age.

  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 1,045

    The RNLI thing seems a total nonsense. The government have already said repeatedly that is not what is being targetted, its hard to imagine the CPS finding a public interest in prosecuting the RNLI for lifesaving and its even harder to imagine a jury voting to convict. Plus of course its not been through the Committee or or the Commons or the Lords were the government's clear stated intent that this is not targetting the RNLI can be clarified through amendments if needed.

    The problem with crying wolf is that you end up casting doubt on other issues. The Online Harms Bill, as described, sounds absolutely awful. We should have free speech and having people's feelings hurt is not a reason for the law to get involved.

    But is the Online Harms Bill actually as described? Or is it, like the RNLI one, being rather misrepresented?

    Whatever a government may "say" in parliament is irrelevant if it doesn't find itself in the bill/act. The burden after the act comes into force then transfers to a test case in the supreme court surely. Do we really want it to have to go all the way to there?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 56,149
    Mr. Divvie, foreign influence to sow division is not exactly a myth.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 10,449

    Foxy said:

    Great stuff from @Cyclefree

    I cannot recall a time when we had a government so keen to trash British values. The re-toxification of the Nasty Party is in full swing.

    It will not happen just yet, but when this government falls, it is going to be remembered as one of the worst in modern British history.

    The triple lock and high house prices seal in a very large demographic for the Tories. The challenge the opposition parties have is to get turnouts among younger age groups higher. That said, I think that tactical voting - especially in the south - is on course to return to 1990s levels. Current Tory retoxification will have electoral consequences.

    And yet as much as lefties like you complain about the triple lock, when Sunak and Boris hint that the warped "earnings growth" figures need dealing with as wages have not grown 8% this year, we have Labour and lefties like Owen Jones instantly responding that 8% pension rises would be appropriate this year. And when Theresa May campaigned in 2017 to water down the triple lock, one rare thing she actually got right, she was attacked for it of course.

    So what is it that you want?

    If we had a principled opposition that cared about young people then we could have seen Labour campaigning for years in favour of fairness for working age people and saying how unfair the triple lock is. But the opposite happens. Any attempt to address it is turned into a party political third rail.
    It is not particularly the left who are against the triple lock, it is more the informed across all the parties.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 2,640

    The government's action is as simple as it is disgraceful. Too many nasty cnuts out there have been so wound up (by the government and their friends in the press) against asylum seekers that they are prompted to make "let them drown" comments when the Nigel goes out on his own boat to film them.

    We know the boats they come in on are not safe. Many need rescuing by the heroes in the RNLI. As someone posted on here, "not a good look" for the RNLI to be rescuing drowning asylum seeking children. These are Tory voters, they deserve a good pander and the sneering one is up for the task.

    So we get this disgrace of a bill. Almost certainly illegal under international law. I wonder if illegal under our own Human Rights Act. The government are happy to propose yet more illegal laws, probably happy to have them struck down by doo-gooder "Enemies of the People" hudges. Anything to virtue signal to the hardcore cnuts in their vote that they are on their side.

    Truly the most disgusting and vile Government of my lifetime.

    What do you say @Philip_Thompson, @Big_G_NorthWales and the other right-wing nutjobs that live on this blog.

    Prepared to call this out or support this racist wretched lot?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 29,568
    IanB2 said:

    CPI 2.5% comes in higher than expected.

    Experts now predicting 4% by year end

    Input prices down in June, though. Which is unexpected. Do wonder whether July will be extra high to make up for it.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 42,262

    I'd wish everyone a 'Good Morning" as usual, but looking at both Ms Cyclefree's leader and what happened yesterday it isn't really, is it?
    We appear to have a mean-minded, indeed cruel, group of people in Government. If the RNLI is concerned about a proposal, then I would really hope that it's reconsidered.
    But there is, so far, no sign of that.

    I have great respect for @Cyclefree but the issue with the RNLI and rescue at sea will need to be addressed, but I can say with certainty that my son, who has just joined the RNLI following a long tradition of both our families involvement in the sea and fishing for generations, will not be thinking that he will be imprisoned for saving any life at sea

    Indeed as a family the RNLI and our local hospice benefit from all our charity support but then maybe that is understandable

    My wife has lost family members at sea and a nephew in the Piper Alpha disaster in 1988 and the absence of their recovery leaves a terrible yearning of loss
    We all thank your son and his colleagues for their service. Your initial response though was instructive. Fingers in ears, eyes closed, la la la its not true.

    This government - YOUR government, your party - want to send your son to jail for being a hero.

    And still you support them.
    Just think what you are saying, HMG actually want to see RNLI crews sent to jail.

    Abject nonsense
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 29,865
    Steve Baker. Bloody Hell.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 11,744

    The RNLI thing seems a total nonsense. The government have already said repeatedly that is not what is being targetted, its hard to imagine the CPS finding a public interest in prosecuting the RNLI for lifesaving and its even harder to imagine a jury voting to convict. Plus of course its not been through the Committee or or the Commons or the Lords were the government's clear stated intent that this is not targetting the RNLI can be clarified through amendments if needed.

    The problem with crying wolf is that you end up casting doubt on other issues. The Online Harms Bill, as described, sounds absolutely awful. We should have free speech and having people's feelings hurt is not a reason for the law to get involved.

    But is the Online Harms Bill actually as described? Or is it, like the RNLI one, being rather misrepresented?

    How is anyone misrepresenting the bill? It is there for all to read. Your interpretation of "ah but" - would anyone actually be pursued, would the CPS be able to make a case etc - wouldn't change the fact that RNLI heroes would be Breaking the Law. Which would put the RNLI itself in an impossible situation as no organisation can send its own people out to deliberately break the law.

    If this bill passes, people wouldn't be prosecuting the RNLI because its botas wouldn't be on the seas rescuing drowning people.

    BTW I entirely agree with you on the Online "Harms" Act. Its yet another piece of appalling legislation so why not show your disgust by voting Conservative again next time? You quite literally voted for this shit.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 25,169

    Mr. Divvie, foreign influence to sow division is not exactly a myth.

    Absolutely. Putin played a blinder over Brexit.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 58,366

    I'd wish everyone a 'Good Morning" as usual, but looking at both Ms Cyclefree's leader and what happened yesterday it isn't really, is it?
    We appear to have a mean-minded, indeed cruel, group of people in Government. If the RNLI is concerned about a proposal, then I would really hope that it's reconsidered.
    But there is, so far, no sign of that.

    I have great respect for @Cyclefree but the issue with the RNLI and rescue at sea will need to be addressed, but I can say with certainty that my son, who has just joined the RNLI following a long tradition of both our families involvement in the sea and fishing for generations, will not be thinking that he will be imprisoned for saving any life at sea

    Indeed as a family the RNLI and our local hospice benefit from all our charity support but then maybe that is understandable

    My wife has lost family members at sea and a nephew in the Piper Alpha disaster in 1988 and the absence of their recovery leaves a terrible yearning of loss
    We all thank your son and his colleagues for their service. Your initial response though was instructive. Fingers in ears, eyes closed, la la la its not true.

    This government - YOUR government, your party - want to send your son to jail for being a hero.

    And still you support them.
    Bullshit.

    Give a citation please that the government wants that, given they've said the exact opposite. Rather than that you're deliberately misinterpreting what a proposed law to tackle evil people traffickers means.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 11,744

    Foxy said:

    Great stuff from @Cyclefree

    I cannot recall a time when we had a government so keen to trash British values. The re-toxification of the Nasty Party is in full swing.

    It will not happen just yet, but when this government falls, it is going to be remembered as one of the worst in modern British history.

    The triple lock and high house prices seal in a very large demographic for the Tories. The challenge the opposition parties have is to get turnouts among younger age groups higher. That said, I think that tactical voting - especially in the south - is on course to return to 1990s levels. Current Tory retoxification will have electoral consequences.

    And yet as much as lefties like you complain about the triple lock, when Sunak and Boris hint that the warped "earnings growth" figures need dealing with as wages have not grown 8% this year, we have Labour and lefties like Owen Jones instantly responding that 8% pension rises would be appropriate this year. And when Theresa May campaigned in 2017 to water down the triple lock, one rare thing she actually got right, she was attacked for it of course.

    So what is it that you want?

    If we had a principled opposition that cared about young people then we could have seen Labour campaigning for years in favour of fairness for working age people and saying how unfair the triple lock is. But the opposite happens. Any attempt to address it is turned into a party political third rail.

    Mate, I am not Owen Jones! I think Labour should be campaigning against the triple lock. It is a bung to prosperous Tory voters at the expense of younger people of working age.

    Or, to flip this over, you support keeping British pensions amongst the worst in the developed world...
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 8,138
    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    The irony of @Cyclefree saying (correctly) that this government has no understanding of British Values is that it was Michael Gove who actually came up with them.

    I mean, as codified they are a load of nebulous and wildly inaccurate bullshit, but the paradox of them designing a ‘British Values’ system and then systematically ignoring it with legislation like this is quite funny.

    Or would be if they weren’t such nasty human beings.

    The analytical series on rethinking education, that R4 ran last week, was notable for how critical Kenneth Baker was of Gove and his education reforms.
    What was the show called, please - I’d like to find on the BBC app.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 10,449
    Foxy said:

    Mr. Divvie, foreign influence to sow division is not exactly a myth.

    Absolutely. Putin played a blinder over Brexit.
    Over the West for the last decade!
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 11,744

    I'd wish everyone a 'Good Morning" as usual, but looking at both Ms Cyclefree's leader and what happened yesterday it isn't really, is it?
    We appear to have a mean-minded, indeed cruel, group of people in Government. If the RNLI is concerned about a proposal, then I would really hope that it's reconsidered.
    But there is, so far, no sign of that.

    I have great respect for @Cyclefree but the issue with the RNLI and rescue at sea will need to be addressed, but I can say with certainty that my son, who has just joined the RNLI following a long tradition of both our families involvement in the sea and fishing for generations, will not be thinking that he will be imprisoned for saving any life at sea

    Indeed as a family the RNLI and our local hospice benefit from all our charity support but then maybe that is understandable

    My wife has lost family members at sea and a nephew in the Piper Alpha disaster in 1988 and the absence of their recovery leaves a terrible yearning of loss
    We all thank your son and his colleagues for their service. Your initial response though was instructive. Fingers in ears, eyes closed, la la la its not true.

    This government - YOUR government, your party - want to send your son to jail for being a hero.

    And still you support them.
    Just think what you are saying, HMG actually want to see RNLI crews sent to jail.

    Abject nonsense
    That is the law they want passing, yes. You keep saying stupid like "abject nonsense" yet it is literally the wording of the law they want passed. They do want to send your son to jail, and they're passing a law to make him a criminal. With you apparently in full support!!!
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 11,744
    edited July 14

    I'd wish everyone a 'Good Morning" as usual, but looking at both Ms Cyclefree's leader and what happened yesterday it isn't really, is it?
    We appear to have a mean-minded, indeed cruel, group of people in Government. If the RNLI is concerned about a proposal, then I would really hope that it's reconsidered.
    But there is, so far, no sign of that.

    I have great respect for @Cyclefree but the issue with the RNLI and rescue at sea will need to be addressed, but I can say with certainty that my son, who has just joined the RNLI following a long tradition of both our families involvement in the sea and fishing for generations, will not be thinking that he will be imprisoned for saving any life at sea

    Indeed as a family the RNLI and our local hospice benefit from all our charity support but then maybe that is understandable

    My wife has lost family members at sea and a nephew in the Piper Alpha disaster in 1988 and the absence of their recovery leaves a terrible yearning of loss
    We all thank your son and his colleagues for their service. Your initial response though was instructive. Fingers in ears, eyes closed, la la la its not true.

    This government - YOUR government, your party - want to send your son to jail for being a hero.

    And still you support them.
    Bullshit.

    Give a citation please that the government wants that, given they've said the exact opposite. Rather than that you're deliberately misinterpreting what a proposed law to tackle evil people traffickers means.
    Lol - you rightly highlight the perils of the Online Harms bill which opens the door to all kinds of abuses due to its vague wording. yet apply the direct opposite reasoning to a bill which cannot be clearer and more explicit.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 42,262
    edited July 14
    murali_s said:

    The government's action is as simple as it is disgraceful. Too many nasty cnuts out there have been so wound up (by the government and their friends in the press) against asylum seekers that they are prompted to make "let them drown" comments when the Nigel goes out on his own boat to film them.

    We know the boats they come in on are not safe. Many need rescuing by the heroes in the RNLI. As someone posted on here, "not a good look" for the RNLI to be rescuing drowning asylum seeking children. These are Tory voters, they deserve a good pander and the sneering one is up for the task.

    So we get this disgrace of a bill. Almost certainly illegal under international law. I wonder if illegal under our own Human Rights Act. The government are happy to propose yet more illegal laws, probably happy to have them struck down by doo-gooder "Enemies of the People" hudges. Anything to virtue signal to the hardcore cnuts in their vote that they are on their side.

    Truly the most disgusting and vile Government of my lifetime.

    What do you say @Philip_Thompson, @Big_G_NorthWales and the other right-wing nutjobs that live on this blog.

    Prepared to call this out or support this racist wretched lot?
    See @Philip_Thompson at 8.09 for his reply which is the same as my response
  • eekeek Posts: 13,645

    I'd wish everyone a 'Good Morning" as usual, but looking at both Ms Cyclefree's leader and what happened yesterday it isn't really, is it?
    We appear to have a mean-minded, indeed cruel, group of people in Government. If the RNLI is concerned about a proposal, then I would really hope that it's reconsidered.
    But there is, so far, no sign of that.

    I have great respect for @Cyclefree but the issue with the RNLI and rescue at sea will need to be addressed, but I can say with certainty that my son, who has just joined the RNLI following a long tradition of both our families involvement in the sea and fishing for generations, will not be thinking that he will be imprisoned for saving any life at sea

    Indeed as a family the RNLI and our local hospice benefit from all our charity support but then maybe that is understandable

    My wife has lost family members at sea and a nephew in the Piper Alpha disaster in 1988 and the absence of their recovery leaves a terrible yearning of loss
    We all thank your son and his colleagues for their service. Your initial response though was instructive. Fingers in ears, eyes closed, la la la its not true.

    This government - YOUR government, your party - want to send your son to jail for being a hero.

    And still you support them.
    Bullshit.

    Give a citation please that the government wants that, given they've said the exact opposite. Rather than that you're deliberately misinterpreting what a proposed law to tackle evil people traffickers means.
    The law as it was originally presented....

    And you've proved the point yourself - if the desire was to tackle evil people traffickers the "for profit" motive within the current law would have been kept in place and not explicitly removed.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 7,136
    edited July 14

    I'd wish everyone a 'Good Morning" as usual, but looking at both Ms Cyclefree's leader and what happened yesterday it isn't really, is it?
    We appear to have a mean-minded, indeed cruel, group of people in Government. If the RNLI is concerned about a proposal, then I would really hope that it's reconsidered.
    But there is, so far, no sign of that.

    I have great respect for @Cyclefree but the issue with the RNLI and rescue at sea will need to be addressed, but I can say with certainty that my son, who has just joined the RNLI following a long tradition of both our families involvement in the sea and fishing for generations, will not be thinking that he will be imprisoned for saving any life at sea

    Indeed as a family the RNLI and our local hospice benefit from all our charity support but then maybe that is understandable

    My wife has lost family members at sea and a nephew in the Piper Alpha disaster in 1988 and the absence of their recovery leaves a terrible yearning of loss

    Whoever becomes the first RNLI volunteer imprisoned as a result of Patel's law will not have imagined that it could have happened to them.

    The issue isn't whether any RNLI volunteers will be prosecuted because they almost certainly won't be. The really interesting development is that the government has allowed this issue to develop.

    The only guiding political or philosophical principle the tories have is how something focus groups with thick chavs. So it's interesting that they get caught on the wrong side of a question to third sector megafaunae like the RNLI.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 11,744
    TOPPING said:

    Steve Baker. Bloody Hell.

    You mean "Self-Styled 'Brexit Hardman' Steve Baker. Bloody Hell."

    Why, what has he done now...?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 25,169

    Foxy said:

    Great stuff from @Cyclefree

    I cannot recall a time when we had a government so keen to trash British values. The re-toxification of the Nasty Party is in full swing.

    It will not happen just yet, but when this government falls, it is going to be remembered as one of the worst in modern British history.

    The triple lock and high house prices seal in a very large demographic for the Tories. The challenge the opposition parties have is to get turnouts among younger age groups higher. That said, I think that tactical voting - especially in the south - is on course to return to 1990s levels. Current Tory retoxification will have electoral consequences.

    I think that Tory reliance on the grey vote is increasingly going to corrode the British economy. Policies will be dictated by a leisure class that do not work*, paid for by those who do. The young are so screwed in this country.

    * though I am not far off joining them!
  • Cocky_cockneyCocky_cockney Posts: 760
    Brilliant article Cyclefree (again).

    God this is a pernicious, nasty, toxic, vile, stench-ridden, putrefying and thoroughly evil Government.

    I hate them with a passion.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 1,045

    I'd wish everyone a 'Good Morning" as usual, but looking at both Ms Cyclefree's leader and what happened yesterday it isn't really, is it?
    We appear to have a mean-minded, indeed cruel, group of people in Government. If the RNLI is concerned about a proposal, then I would really hope that it's reconsidered.
    But there is, so far, no sign of that.

    I have great respect for @Cyclefree but the issue with the RNLI and rescue at sea will need to be addressed, but I can say with certainty that my son, who has just joined the RNLI following a long tradition of both our families involvement in the sea and fishing for generations, will not be thinking that he will be imprisoned for saving any life at sea

    Indeed as a family the RNLI and our local hospice benefit from all our charity support but then maybe that is understandable

    My wife has lost family members at sea and a nephew in the Piper Alpha disaster in 1988 and the absence of their recovery leaves a terrible yearning of loss
    I have great respect for the RNLI and other national charities which are filling a hole left by National Governments of many years, but I still think this lack of a clarification is a giant loophole for any disreputable government to crawl through. I did ask a question a few days ago which no-one answered, which was what if you were an amatuer sailor in a small pleasure boat off shore from essex/kent etc. If you spot an asylum seeker dinghy shipping water, do you leave them to drown or do you risk fines and imprisonment by saving their lives?

    You save them
    Thank you, but it doesn't help the poor sailor caught up in the middle.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 42,262

    I'd wish everyone a 'Good Morning" as usual, but looking at both Ms Cyclefree's leader and what happened yesterday it isn't really, is it?
    We appear to have a mean-minded, indeed cruel, group of people in Government. If the RNLI is concerned about a proposal, then I would really hope that it's reconsidered.
    But there is, so far, no sign of that.

    I have great respect for @Cyclefree but the issue with the RNLI and rescue at sea will need to be addressed, but I can say with certainty that my son, who has just joined the RNLI following a long tradition of both our families involvement in the sea and fishing for generations, will not be thinking that he will be imprisoned for saving any life at sea

    Indeed as a family the RNLI and our local hospice benefit from all our charity support but then maybe that is understandable

    My wife has lost family members at sea and a nephew in the Piper Alpha disaster in 1988 and the absence of their recovery leaves a terrible yearning of loss
    We all thank your son and his colleagues for their service. Your initial response though was instructive. Fingers in ears, eyes closed, la la la its not true.

    This government - YOUR government, your party - want to send your son to jail for being a hero.

    And still you support them.
    Just think what you are saying, HMG actually want to see RNLI crews sent to jail.

    Abject nonsense
    That is the law they want passing, yes. You keep saying stupid like "abject nonsense" yet it is literally the wording of the law they want passed. They do want to send your son to jail, and they're passing a law to make him a criminal. With you apparently in full support!!!
    Of course it is not and it will be amended as it passes through Parliament

    Maybe at that time you will apologise for your scaremongering
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 58,366
    eek said:

    I'd wish everyone a 'Good Morning" as usual, but looking at both Ms Cyclefree's leader and what happened yesterday it isn't really, is it?
    We appear to have a mean-minded, indeed cruel, group of people in Government. If the RNLI is concerned about a proposal, then I would really hope that it's reconsidered.
    But there is, so far, no sign of that.

    I have great respect for @Cyclefree but the issue with the RNLI and rescue at sea will need to be addressed, but I can say with certainty that my son, who has just joined the RNLI following a long tradition of both our families involvement in the sea and fishing for generations, will not be thinking that he will be imprisoned for saving any life at sea

    Indeed as a family the RNLI and our local hospice benefit from all our charity support but then maybe that is understandable

    My wife has lost family members at sea and a nephew in the Piper Alpha disaster in 1988 and the absence of their recovery leaves a terrible yearning of loss
    We all thank your son and his colleagues for their service. Your initial response though was instructive. Fingers in ears, eyes closed, la la la its not true.

    This government - YOUR government, your party - want to send your son to jail for being a hero.

    And still you support them.
    Bullshit.

    Give a citation please that the government wants that, given they've said the exact opposite. Rather than that you're deliberately misinterpreting what a proposed law to tackle evil people traffickers means.
    The law as it was originally presented....

    And you've proved the point yourself - if the desire was to tackle evil people traffickers the "for profit" motive within the current law would have been kept in place and not explicitly removed.
    No. Tackling evil people traffickers should be able to be done by proving they trafficked people - even if the sums of money changing hands is murky and can't be proven.

    Rescuing drowning people from the water is not that, and its a lie to say that is what people want prosecuting.
  • Cocky_cockneyCocky_cockney Posts: 760
    edited July 14
    Someone I know married an asylum seeker last year. She's British born, lived here all her life, fell in love with the guy.

    This week the Home Office served him a deportation notice. Two weeks to leave the country. No right to appeal.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 56,149
    F1: for those wondering the schedule is this:

    Friday - Practice 1 and Qualifying

    Saturday - Practice 2 and Sprint Qualifying

    Sunday - Race

    Some teams may skip practice over clutch concerns.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 42,262

    I'd wish everyone a 'Good Morning" as usual, but looking at both Ms Cyclefree's leader and what happened yesterday it isn't really, is it?
    We appear to have a mean-minded, indeed cruel, group of people in Government. If the RNLI is concerned about a proposal, then I would really hope that it's reconsidered.
    But there is, so far, no sign of that.

    I have great respect for @Cyclefree but the issue with the RNLI and rescue at sea will need to be addressed, but I can say with certainty that my son, who has just joined the RNLI following a long tradition of both our families involvement in the sea and fishing for generations, will not be thinking that he will be imprisoned for saving any life at sea

    Indeed as a family the RNLI and our local hospice benefit from all our charity support but then maybe that is understandable

    My wife has lost family members at sea and a nephew in the Piper Alpha disaster in 1988 and the absence of their recovery leaves a terrible yearning of loss
    I have great respect for the RNLI and other national charities which are filling a hole left by National Governments of many years, but I still think this lack of a clarification is a giant loophole for any disreputable government to crawl through. I did ask a question a few days ago which no-one answered, which was what if you were an amatuer sailor in a small pleasure boat off shore from essex/kent etc. If you spot an asylum seeker dinghy shipping water, do you leave them to drown or do you risk fines and imprisonment by saving their lives?

    You save them
    Thank you, but it doesn't help the poor sailor caught up in the middle.
    There is a natural instinct to save life at sea and such rescues will not result in prosecutions, no matter some who are scaremongering
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 58,366

    The RNLI thing seems a total nonsense. The government have already said repeatedly that is not what is being targetted, its hard to imagine the CPS finding a public interest in prosecuting the RNLI for lifesaving and its even harder to imagine a jury voting to convict. Plus of course its not been through the Committee or or the Commons or the Lords were the government's clear stated intent that this is not targetting the RNLI can be clarified through amendments if needed.

    The problem with crying wolf is that you end up casting doubt on other issues. The Online Harms Bill, as described, sounds absolutely awful. We should have free speech and having people's feelings hurt is not a reason for the law to get involved.

    But is the Online Harms Bill actually as described? Or is it, like the RNLI one, being rather misrepresented?

    How is anyone misrepresenting the bill? It is there for all to read. Your interpretation of "ah but" - would anyone actually be pursued, would the CPS be able to make a case etc - wouldn't change the fact that RNLI heroes would be Breaking the Law. Which would put the RNLI itself in an impossible situation as no organisation can send its own people out to deliberately break the law.

    If this bill passes, people wouldn't be prosecuting the RNLI because its botas wouldn't be on the seas rescuing drowning people.

    BTW I entirely agree with you on the Online "Harms" Act. Its yet another piece of appalling legislation so why not show your disgust by voting Conservative again next time? You quite literally voted for this shit.
    To repeat, the bill MUST be interpreted in line with the Human Rights Act which enshrines the right to life. An interpretation which says RNLI cannot resuce drowning people is therefore wrong. RNLI heroes would NOT be breaking the law. That is not, "ah but would anyone be pursued". That is the law.

    A common mistake by campaigners is looking at a specific piece of legislation without looking at the wider legislative framework that governs how that legislation must be interpreted. The courts will not make that mistake.
    Well said.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 3,436
    TOPPING said:

    Steve Baker. Bloody Hell.

    I assume your statement is in surprised admiration. I was impressed.

    I would like to say how impressed I am with the dignified way the England players have dealt with everything. Very impressed indeed.
  • eekeek Posts: 13,645

    Someone I know married an asylum seeker last year. She's British born, lived here all her life, fell in love with the guy.

    This week the Home Office served him a deportation notice. Two weeks to leave the country. No right to appeal.

    This is the sick bunch of fuckers some of you voted for. You deserve to burn in hell.

    I believe Sandpit can point you at a solution to that problem (he lives in Dubai because his wife can't yet come to the UK).
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 56,149
    Mr. Cockney, that sounds like a tragic case.

    It doesn't mean that supporting a far left lunatic in Corbyn was preferable.

    Doesn't marriage confer residency rights?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 25,169
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 8,138
    Big G doing his usual “I’m on the fence but Sky News say this and I could tease the libs a bit” schtick.

    One of the most notorious trolls on PB.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 42,262

    TOPPING said:

    Steve Baker. Bloody Hell.

    You mean "Self-Styled 'Brexit Hardman' Steve Baker. Bloody Hell."

    Why, what has he done now...?
    You may be very surprised
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 10,449

    The RNLI thing seems a total nonsense. The government have already said repeatedly that is not what is being targetted, its hard to imagine the CPS finding a public interest in prosecuting the RNLI for lifesaving and its even harder to imagine a jury voting to convict. Plus of course its not been through the Committee or or the Commons or the Lords were the government's clear stated intent that this is not targetting the RNLI can be clarified through amendments if needed.

    The problem with crying wolf is that you end up casting doubt on other issues. The Online Harms Bill, as described, sounds absolutely awful. We should have free speech and having people's feelings hurt is not a reason for the law to get involved.

    But is the Online Harms Bill actually as described? Or is it, like the RNLI one, being rather misrepresented?

    How is anyone misrepresenting the bill? It is there for all to read. Your interpretation of "ah but" - would anyone actually be pursued, would the CPS be able to make a case etc - wouldn't change the fact that RNLI heroes would be Breaking the Law. Which would put the RNLI itself in an impossible situation as no organisation can send its own people out to deliberately break the law.

    If this bill passes, people wouldn't be prosecuting the RNLI because its botas wouldn't be on the seas rescuing drowning people.

    BTW I entirely agree with you on the Online "Harms" Act. Its yet another piece of appalling legislation so why not show your disgust by voting Conservative again next time? You quite literally voted for this shit.
    To repeat, the bill MUST be interpreted in line with the Human Rights Act which enshrines the right to life. An interpretation which says RNLI cannot resuce drowning people is therefore wrong. RNLI heroes would NOT be breaking the law. That is not, "ah but would anyone be pursued". That is the law.

    A common mistake by campaigners is looking at a specific piece of legislation without looking at the wider legislative framework that governs how that legislation must be interpreted. The courts will not make that mistake.
    IANAL but why is the government not willing to make it explicit within the bill rather than leave it open to the courts?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 41,949

    I'd wish everyone a 'Good Morning" as usual, but looking at both Ms Cyclefree's leader and what happened yesterday it isn't really, is it?
    We appear to have a mean-minded, indeed cruel, group of people in Government. If the RNLI is concerned about a proposal, then I would really hope that it's reconsidered.
    But there is, so far, no sign of that.

    I have great respect for @Cyclefree but the issue with the RNLI and rescue at sea will need to be addressed, but I can say with certainty that my son, who has just joined the RNLI following a long tradition of both our families involvement in the sea and fishing for generations, will not be thinking that he will be imprisoned for saving any life at sea

    Indeed as a family the RNLI and our local hospice benefit from all our charity support but then maybe that is understandable

    My wife has lost family members at sea and a nephew in the Piper Alpha disaster in 1988 and the absence of their recovery leaves a terrible yearning of loss
    We all thank your son and his colleagues for their service. Your initial response though was instructive. Fingers in ears, eyes closed, la la la its not true.

    This government - YOUR government, your party - want to send your son to jail for being a hero.

    And still you support them.
    Just think what you are saying, HMG actually want to see RNLI crews sent to jail.

    Abject nonsense
    That is the law they want passing, yes. You keep saying stupid like "abject nonsense" yet it is literally the wording of the law they want passed. They do want to send your son to jail, and they're passing a law to make him a criminal. With you apparently in full support!!!
    Of course it is not and it will be amended as it passes through Parliament

    Maybe at that time you will apologise for your scaremongering
    I strongly suspect that if it needs fixing the HoL will do so.

    I also think that I v much doubt any jury will pass a guilty verdict on a guy in a RNLI boat who saves a life on the open seas. But crap drafted laws should be amended during the process rather than relying on the good sense of juries.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 8,138
    edited July 14
    What, after all, is Borisology so far?
    How do we judge the government’s priorities based on their legislative programme to date.

    1. Dishing the woke.
    2. Cracking down on asylum seekers
    3. Muzzling the BBC
    4. Performative stuff on Brexit

    Oh, and austerity is coming, but they haven’t fessed up openly to it yet.

    Anything else?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 42,262
    edited July 14

    Big G doing his usual “I’m on the fence but Sky News say this and I could tease the libs a bit” schtick.

    One of the most notorious trolls on PB.

    I am not a troll but you do not seem to like being challenged when making untrue and inaccurate comments about me

    Not least about my neutral stance on foreign aid, as I made that clear yesterday long before Sky web story

    You are wrong yet again
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 1,006
    Looks like it's Hard Left Super Whinge-In morning today.

    Let's see. Are the Tories still around 10% clear in the polls? Oh yes so they are!

    Keep on dreaming hard lefters!

    😊
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 20,181
    Dura_Ace said:

    I'd wish everyone a 'Good Morning" as usual, but looking at both Ms Cyclefree's leader and what happened yesterday it isn't really, is it?
    We appear to have a mean-minded, indeed cruel, group of people in Government. If the RNLI is concerned about a proposal, then I would really hope that it's reconsidered.
    But there is, so far, no sign of that.

    I have great respect for @Cyclefree but the issue with the RNLI and rescue at sea will need to be addressed, but I can say with certainty that my son, who has just joined the RNLI following a long tradition of both our families involvement in the sea and fishing for generations, will not be thinking that he will be imprisoned for saving any life at sea

    Indeed as a family the RNLI and our local hospice benefit from all our charity support but then maybe that is understandable

    My wife has lost family members at sea and a nephew in the Piper Alpha disaster in 1988 and the absence of their recovery leaves a terrible yearning of loss

    Whoever becomes the first RNLI volunteer imprisoned as a result of Patel's law will not have imagined that it could have happened to them.

    The issue isn't whether any RNLI volunteers will be prosecuted because they almost certainly won't be. The really interesting development is that the government has allowed this issue to develop.

    The only guiding political or philosophical principle the tories have is how something focus groups with thick chavs. So it's interesting that they get caught on the wrong side of a question to third sector megafaunae like the RNLI.
    The proposed bill does not just potentially catch the RNLI but anyone at sea who helps a boat with people in it claiming asylum. Nor is it limited to actions at sea either. Anyone providing advice or guidance to a potential asylum seeker is potentially caught.

    Would the CPS prosecute? Who can say? Probably not - but the public interest test is not set in stone and can be removed or changed.

    And having a badly drafted law coupled with uncertainty about its enforcement is a very bad way of legislating. It is arbitrary and uncertain.

    Prosecuting people smugglers is desirable. The existing legislation provides for that. So what is this changed provision intended to do?

    Anyway, good to see that I have stimulated some discussion. It is a gloriously sunny day here - positively Mediterranean - so once I've finished breakfast on my terrace, the beach and hills beckon.

    Have a lovely day all.
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