Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Legislation Watch: three planned changes that will limit our freedoms – politicalbetting.com

1234568

Comments

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Cookie said:

    Netherlands watch: 10,426 positives today, up from 3,600 a week ago. A big leap, but we are already down from 6-fold week-on-week increase to three-fold. Would be too optimistic to say 'flattening out' yet but rate of increase decreasing rapidly. Long way to go yet.
    Netherlands positives per capita now ahead of UK's - though we're yet to have the figures for the UK for 'sicky Wednesday' (an acceptable analog to 'murder Tuesday'?)

    Next Tues / Wed in the UK will be the big one to watch.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,547

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:


    Except that isn't true. The "legal commitment" gave reasons that it might not be able to be met, including financial circumstances, and said that if that was the case it gave provision for statements in Parliament to resolve it.

    The financial circumstances have changed theres been a statement in Parliament and a vote to resolve it, as per the law.

    No legal commitment reneged on. The law was followed.

    That presupposes the government is actually constrained by those circumstances and is disapplying its commitment to the least extent possible. It isn't. That's why it changed the law, which it has the power to do. But it's like principles. If we don't like this law, we can have others. Why would anyone believe them when even their laws aren't worth the paper they are written on?
    They haven't changed the law, that would take an Act of Parliament.

    They've issued a statement within the confines of the existing law, following the procedure laid down within the existing law.

    No law change has occurred. Exercising a provision of a law is not a change in the law.
    You may technically be correct. Time to reach for a constitutional lawyer. In effect the Act and the legal obligations on the government have been over-ridden by a ministerial statement, such that the Ministerial Statement, not the Act, is now the statement of law. According to Falconer, this is a novel and highly dubious constitutional manoeuvre.

    The thread is here and speaks to the point that @Foxy made about a government that puts itself above the law being a danger to every citizen.

    https://twitter.com/LordCFalconer/status/1415077645394616325
    Constitutional lawyer? I think you mean opposition partisan politician do you not? Hasn't he resigned yet?

    The Act foresaw and specifically names financial circumstance as being a reason why the 0.7% is not met and specifically says that if its not met there needs to be a statement before Parliament explaining why.

    The 0.7% isn't being met for the reasons explained and there's been a statement before Parliament explaining why, as per the provisions of the Act.
    You are confusing obligation with accountability. The obligation of the original Act on the government isn't diminished by the weak accountability measures. ie the the obligation under the Act to meet the 0.7% target isn't removed by a statement being brought to Parliament. The obligation is replaced however in yesterday's ministerial statement.
    There was never an obligation to meet it 100% of the time, that's why the provisions for it not being met were there in the Act. Provisions that have been exercised.

    There'd be no need for any such provisions if there were a universal obligation.
    This is completely wrong on the law, of course. The Act can be read here. Basically, it is accepted that a single year can be missed for specific reasons, so that the Secretary of State goes to parliament and explains what went wrong and how he will get back on track the following year.

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/12/section/1/enacted
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    https://twitter.com/BrookesTimes/status/1415282011657363460

    This is absolutely despicable: sexist and racist.

    That is disgusting.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,626
    Carnyx said:

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mr. Felix, cultish rituals are a substitute for useful action and a means by which members of said cult can know one another.

    I'm not a fan of this sort of thing, whether it's clapping at one's door, or falling to one's knees.

    It achieves nothing. Well, except stoking division when the straightforward message of opposing racism is something almost everyone would be happy to get behind if it weren't tethered to the political bullshit and iconoclast tendencies of BLM.

    Morris I reckon it is only you, @Leon, and Douglas Murray (who I rate btw) who have the faintest idea that the BLM movement is Marxist, that the BLM movement is a movement, or what the hell Marxism is.

    99.8% of the population sees people making a stand against racism, which undoubtedly exists in our society. Many younger perhaps who knows would-be racists see their heroes and role-models doing it and perhaps that gets them thinking that this racism thing is bad.
    Its extremely arrogant and conceited whataboutery.

    If lots of people are saying "I am doing this gesture against racism" then to have other people turn around and say "no you're not, this is a gesture in favour of Marxism" is extremely rude and hubristic.

    Saying anyone using an anti-racism gesture is Marxist because some are is as absurd as saying that anyone who flies the flag is racist because a minority of people doing so are racist.
    I see so gesture is in the eyes of the doer and never related to any political movement, eh Philip?

    ''are you going to come quietly Mr white-thug?''

    "Well no officer, because see, for me, that Nazi salute is actually my symbolic protest against climate change. As Philip Thompson has decreed, the meaning of gesture rests with the DOER. You must accept my version of what it means, because your opinion as passive viewer does not matter"
    The Nazi salute is universally associated with Nazis.

    An anti-racism knee gesture is pretty universally associated with being against racism. Next to nobody associates it with Marxism.
    Well, this Roman would beg to differ...


    Mussolini was allied to Hitler, remember?
    Eh, that's a Roman salute isn't it? But adopted as, and now widely remembered as, the Hitlergruss. Which everyone associates with the chaps with black uniforms and black, red and white armbands.
    In his second incarnation at Italian dictator, Mussolini moved from fascism to full Nazi. See the Salo Republic.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mr. Felix, cultish rituals are a substitute for useful action and a means by which members of said cult can know one another.

    I'm not a fan of this sort of thing, whether it's clapping at one's door, or falling to one's knees.

    It achieves nothing. Well, except stoking division when the straightforward message of opposing racism is something almost everyone would be happy to get behind if it weren't tethered to the political bullshit and iconoclast tendencies of BLM.

    Morris I reckon it is only you, @Leon, and Douglas Murray (who I rate btw) who have the faintest idea that the BLM movement is Marxist, that the BLM movement is a movement, or what the hell Marxism is.

    99.8% of the population sees people making a stand against racism, which undoubtedly exists in our society. Many younger perhaps who knows would-be racists see their heroes and role-models doing it and perhaps that gets them thinking that this racism thing is bad.
    I suspect most football fans booing the players couldn't tell you what Marxism is.

    But this wasn't instigated out of thin air by the England footballers. This came about because of the murder of a black man by a white police officer in the USA. Furthermore, the footballers wore shirts with the words Black Lives Matter on them and Sky Sports have stuck those words on every PL game since.

    So I would say that whilst most of the football fans who object to it couldn't articulate what it is they don't like about it, they know very well that they don't like it and it isn't because they're nasty racists.
    Black Lives Matter in this context = black lives matter.

    And who could complain about some capitalisation? And if you think that there is no read across in the UK of black people being unfairly or excessively targeted by the police if thankfully not shot, then that does betray a naivety unbecoming of a PB contributor.
    I wasn't suggesting that capitals mattered - indeed, Sky have been keen to stress that it isn't about the organisation. But why not just stick the Kick It Out logo up? It feels like that no one was brave enough to say "look, we've made our point regarding the murder of George Floyd, time to move on". And so everything has been mixed up together, which I don't think is helpful when the football world pretends this is something that is generic.
    My own view is that Kick it Out is the Rock Against Racism of the anti-racist world - pretty middle-class friendly (and perhaps less effective) whereas BLM is more akin to the ANL which took a more, er, pro-active approach on the streets.

    BLM is the more streetwise and your mother wouldn't like it anti-racist group.
    Right, we're getting somewhere. It's not effective unless it's antagonising the right people. Personally, I'm not sure that's the way to go. But if that's what they want to do...
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:


    Except that isn't true. The "legal commitment" gave reasons that it might not be able to be met, including financial circumstances, and said that if that was the case it gave provision for statements in Parliament to resolve it.

    The financial circumstances have changed theres been a statement in Parliament and a vote to resolve it, as per the law.

    No legal commitment reneged on. The law was followed.

    That presupposes the government is actually constrained by those circumstances and is disapplying its commitment to the least extent possible. It isn't. That's why it changed the law, which it has the power to do. But it's like principles. If we don't like this law, we can have others. Why would anyone believe them when even their laws aren't worth the paper they are written on?
    They haven't changed the law, that would take an Act of Parliament.

    They've issued a statement within the confines of the existing law, following the procedure laid down within the existing law.

    No law change has occurred. Exercising a provision of a law is not a change in the law.
    You may technically be correct. Time to reach for a constitutional lawyer. In effect the Act and the legal obligations on the government have been over-ridden by a ministerial statement, such that the Ministerial Statement, not the Act, is now the statement of law. According to Falconer, this is a novel and highly dubious constitutional manoeuvre.

    The thread is here and speaks to the point that @Foxy made about a government that puts itself above the law being a danger to every citizen.

    https://twitter.com/LordCFalconer/status/1415077645394616325
    Constitutional lawyer? I think you mean opposition partisan politician do you not? Hasn't he resigned yet?

    The Act foresaw and specifically names financial circumstance as being a reason why the 0.7% is not met and specifically says that if its not met there needs to be a statement before Parliament explaining why.

    The 0.7% isn't being met for the reasons explained and there's been a statement before Parliament explaining why, as per the provisions of the Act.
    You are confusing obligation with accountability. The obligation of the original Act on the government isn't diminished by the weak accountability measures. ie the the obligation under the Act to meet the 0.7% target isn't removed by a statement being brought to Parliament. The obligation is replaced however in yesterday's ministerial statement.
    There was never an obligation to meet it 100% of the time, that's why the provisions for it not being met were there in the Act. Provisions that have been exercised.

    There'd be no need for any such provisions if there were a universal obligation.
    This is completely wrong on the law, of course. The Act can be read here. Basically, it is accepted that a single year can be missed for specific reasons, so that the Secretary of State goes to parliament and explains what went wrong and how he will get back on track the following year.

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/12/section/1/enacted
    Section 2, 3(b) applies.

    Its provisions have been followed.

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/12/section/2/enacted
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,626

    https://twitter.com/BrookesTimes/status/1415282011657363460

    This is absolutely despicable: sexist and racist.

    That is disgusting.
    Well, she *is* white, so....
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    algarkirk said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    algarkirk said:

    DougSeal said:

    Lawyer here. The only part I disagree with Cyclefree’s over is her interpretation of subsection 3. I think the concern about the RNLI is slightly overstated (but not misplaced at all) given the RNLI is likely a non profit that aims to assist asylum seekers (specifically those in distress at sea) and thus exempted by section 25(A)(3)?

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1971/77/section/25A

    Agree that it creates confusion and thus an intolerable situation for the RNLI though.

    Any government that wants to lose the next election by 300 seats will make sure that lifeboatmen go to prison for saving people from drowning.
    To repeat myself

    You don't think things through. Say you have a dinghy full of people in the English channel in good weather with everything a bit borderline: might be overloaded or just very full, has food water and fuel but maybe not enough, has chart and compass but the skipper looks a bit vague about using them. Does the lifeboat take them in tow? If it does does the same boat, same situation, turn up the following day in hope of a tow? Does the lifeboat refuse because We did you yesterday? And so on.

    It isn't going to be a "Grace Darling is innocent" scenario.
    Exactly. And that is before someone on the dingy declares an emergency. Or even creates emergencies - this has occurred and been filmed in the Med.
    I don't disagree with all this, but stick to my point that the public will not vote for a government which allows RNLI men to go to prison for saving people from drowning. Which means, among other things, that it won't happen.

    Yes, there is a scandal, yes there are no good and easy answers, and threatening RNLI men is among the not good answers. I can foresee the Daily Mail photo of the 4 year old's dead body on the south coast beach right now, and so can Boris.

    Indeed.

    The problem they are trying to legislate is the organisers of these boat parties are rather good at trying to insulate themselves from the consequences of their actions.

    Hence a law to prosecute anybody in the general vicinity, pretty much.

    What you need to do, is to intercept all the boats, take everyone off them, and put them somewhere safe, that they didn't want to go. That news would travel back up the line quite fast and the boat trips would go out of fashion.
    Exactly. People take boats because it's a very effective way of gaining admission to the country, with removals - once here - being a manageable risk.
    They also take the view, according to interviews with actual migrants who've used such routes, that at worst they will end up where they started. In the hell hole known as France....

    Apparently some traffickers actually offer a we-will-keep-sending-you-until-you-get-into-the-destination service...
    "I WANT to get to the UK." - NOT an asylum seeker.
    Again, you are assuming a binary asylum seeker/not asylum seeker.

    What about the chap who is in a kind of dicey situation in country x, but also wants to go somewhere he thinks he can get a job?
    Then he can claim asylum in any country where he can get asylum, then seek to get a visa to go somewhere he wants to go.

    Being an asylum seeker isn't a blank cheque to be an economic migrant to any nation you choose to go to.
    I suggest you read up, somebody can claim asylum in whatever country they choose
    To save you searching here's a link https://fullfact.org/immigration/refugees-first-safe-country/

    I especially like the fact that the EU state that Greece isn't a safe country for Afghans and would expect it's very easy to argue that France isn't a safe country for anyone who isn't French.

    Basically while in an ideal world you would claim asylum in the first safe country you get to in reality everyone wants to get to where they already have potential friends - and that will be Britain or a few other EU countries.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    I see Sian Berry has resigned as co-leader following the appointment of several people she did not agree with to the Green "front bench".

    How are Green front bench appointments decided?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mr. Felix, cultish rituals are a substitute for useful action and a means by which members of said cult can know one another.

    I'm not a fan of this sort of thing, whether it's clapping at one's door, or falling to one's knees.

    It achieves nothing. Well, except stoking division when the straightforward message of opposing racism is something almost everyone would be happy to get behind if it weren't tethered to the political bullshit and iconoclast tendencies of BLM.

    Morris I reckon it is only you, @Leon, and Douglas Murray (who I rate btw) who have the faintest idea that the BLM movement is Marxist, that the BLM movement is a movement, or what the hell Marxism is.

    99.8% of the population sees people making a stand against racism, which undoubtedly exists in our society. Many younger perhaps who knows would-be racists see their heroes and role-models doing it and perhaps that gets them thinking that this racism thing is bad.
    I suspect most football fans booing the players couldn't tell you what Marxism is.

    But this wasn't instigated out of thin air by the England footballers. This came about because of the murder of a black man by a white police officer in the USA. Furthermore, the footballers wore shirts with the words Black Lives Matter on them and Sky Sports have stuck those words on every PL game since.

    So I would say that whilst most of the football fans who object to it couldn't articulate what it is they don't like about it, they know very well that they don't like it and it isn't because they're nasty racists.
    Black Lives Matter in this context = black lives matter.

    And who could complain about some capitalisation? And if you think that there is no read across in the UK of black people being unfairly or excessively targeted by the police if thankfully not shot, then that does betray a naivety unbecoming of a PB contributor.
    I wasn't suggesting that capitals mattered - indeed, Sky have been keen to stress that it isn't about the organisation. But why not just stick the Kick It Out logo up? It feels like that no one was brave enough to say "look, we've made our point regarding the murder of George Floyd, time to move on". And so everything has been mixed up together, which I don't think is helpful when the football world pretends this is something that is generic.
    My own view is that Kick it Out is the Rock Against Racism of the anti-racist world - pretty middle-class friendly (and perhaps less effective) whereas BLM is more akin to the ANL which took a more, er, pro-active approach on the streets.

    BLM is the more streetwise and your mother wouldn't like it anti-racist group.
    Right, we're getting somewhere. It's not effective unless it's antagonising the right people. Personally, I'm not sure that's the way to go. But if that's what they want to do...
    It's using the language of the streets to address a problem that is to a large extent of the streets. It is addressed to exactly the right people.

    People like you (and me) can associate ourselves with Kick it Out and feel great about it.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,156

    https://twitter.com/BrookesTimes/status/1415282011657363460

    This is absolutely despicable: sexist and racist.

    That is disgusting.
    Well, she *is* white, so....
    Trtying to see where the sexism is coming in - as the branks or something even more unfortunate?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,626
    eek said:

    algarkirk said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    algarkirk said:

    DougSeal said:

    Lawyer here. The only part I disagree with Cyclefree’s over is her interpretation of subsection 3. I think the concern about the RNLI is slightly overstated (but not misplaced at all) given the RNLI is likely a non profit that aims to assist asylum seekers (specifically those in distress at sea) and thus exempted by section 25(A)(3)?

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1971/77/section/25A

    Agree that it creates confusion and thus an intolerable situation for the RNLI though.

    Any government that wants to lose the next election by 300 seats will make sure that lifeboatmen go to prison for saving people from drowning.
    To repeat myself

    You don't think things through. Say you have a dinghy full of people in the English channel in good weather with everything a bit borderline: might be overloaded or just very full, has food water and fuel but maybe not enough, has chart and compass but the skipper looks a bit vague about using them. Does the lifeboat take them in tow? If it does does the same boat, same situation, turn up the following day in hope of a tow? Does the lifeboat refuse because We did you yesterday? And so on.

    It isn't going to be a "Grace Darling is innocent" scenario.
    Exactly. And that is before someone on the dingy declares an emergency. Or even creates emergencies - this has occurred and been filmed in the Med.
    I don't disagree with all this, but stick to my point that the public will not vote for a government which allows RNLI men to go to prison for saving people from drowning. Which means, among other things, that it won't happen.

    Yes, there is a scandal, yes there are no good and easy answers, and threatening RNLI men is among the not good answers. I can foresee the Daily Mail photo of the 4 year old's dead body on the south coast beach right now, and so can Boris.

    Indeed.

    The problem they are trying to legislate is the organisers of these boat parties are rather good at trying to insulate themselves from the consequences of their actions.

    Hence a law to prosecute anybody in the general vicinity, pretty much.

    What you need to do, is to intercept all the boats, take everyone off them, and put them somewhere safe, that they didn't want to go. That news would travel back up the line quite fast and the boat trips would go out of fashion.
    Exactly. People take boats because it's a very effective way of gaining admission to the country, with removals - once here - being a manageable risk.
    They also take the view, according to interviews with actual migrants who've used such routes, that at worst they will end up where they started. In the hell hole known as France....

    Apparently some traffickers actually offer a we-will-keep-sending-you-until-you-get-into-the-destination service...
    "I WANT to get to the UK." - NOT an asylum seeker.
    Again, you are assuming a binary asylum seeker/not asylum seeker.

    What about the chap who is in a kind of dicey situation in country x, but also wants to go somewhere he thinks he can get a job?
    Then he can claim asylum in any country where he can get asylum, then seek to get a visa to go somewhere he wants to go.

    Being an asylum seeker isn't a blank cheque to be an economic migrant to any nation you choose to go to.
    I suggest you read up, somebody can claim asylum in whatever country they choose
    To save you searching here's a link https://fullfact.org/immigration/refugees-first-safe-country/

    I especially like the fact that the EU state that Greece isn't a safe country for Afghans and would expect it's very easy to argue that France isn't a safe country for anyone who isn't French.

    Basically while in an ideal world you would claim asylum in the first safe country you get to in reality everyone wants to get to where they already have potential friends - and that will be Britain or a few other EU countries.
    We must make France a safe space for refugees. Everyone - meet me at Southampton. BYOLB....
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    I posted the Di Canio pic as a bit of fun - it's not like the Romans were especially virtuous and obviously Lazio and Di Canio have ties to the far right, too.

    But it's interesting to consider who has the right to decide when something is beyond the pale. The N word is just a colour and the swastika is a religious symbol, but neither are considered acceptable (except in some music and at Upminster Bridge tube station).
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mr. Felix, cultish rituals are a substitute for useful action and a means by which members of said cult can know one another.

    I'm not a fan of this sort of thing, whether it's clapping at one's door, or falling to one's knees.

    It achieves nothing. Well, except stoking division when the straightforward message of opposing racism is something almost everyone would be happy to get behind if it weren't tethered to the political bullshit and iconoclast tendencies of BLM.

    Morris I reckon it is only you, @Leon, and Douglas Murray (who I rate btw) who have the faintest idea that the BLM movement is Marxist, that the BLM movement is a movement, or what the hell Marxism is.

    99.8% of the population sees people making a stand against racism, which undoubtedly exists in our society. Many younger perhaps who knows would-be racists see their heroes and role-models doing it and perhaps that gets them thinking that this racism thing is bad.
    I suspect most football fans booing the players couldn't tell you what Marxism is.

    But this wasn't instigated out of thin air by the England footballers. This came about because of the murder of a black man by a white police officer in the USA. Furthermore, the footballers wore shirts with the words Black Lives Matter on them and Sky Sports have stuck those words on every PL game since.

    So I would say that whilst most of the football fans who object to it couldn't articulate what it is they don't like about it, they know very well that they don't like it and it isn't because they're nasty racists.
    Black Lives Matter in this context = black lives matter.

    And who could complain about some capitalisation? And if you think that there is no read across in the UK of black people being unfairly or excessively targeted by the police if thankfully not shot, then that does betray a naivety unbecoming of a PB contributor.
    I wasn't suggesting that capitals mattered - indeed, Sky have been keen to stress that it isn't about the organisation. But why not just stick the Kick It Out logo up? It feels like that no one was brave enough to say "look, we've made our point regarding the murder of George Floyd, time to move on". And so everything has been mixed up together, which I don't think is helpful when the football world pretends this is something that is generic.
    My own view is that Kick it Out is the Rock Against Racism of the anti-racist world - pretty middle-class friendly (and perhaps less effective) whereas BLM is more akin to the ANL which took a more, er, pro-active approach on the streets.

    BLM is the more streetwise and your mother wouldn't like it anti-racist group.
    Right, we're getting somewhere. It's not effective unless it's antagonising the right people. Personally, I'm not sure that's the way to go. But if that's what they want to do...
    It's using the language of the streets to address a problem that is to a large extent of the streets. It is addressed to exactly the right people.

    People like you (and me) can associate ourselves with Kick it Out and feel great about it.
    Streets? Don't you mean Twitter?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited July 2021
    tlg86 said:

    I posted the Di Canio pic as a bit of fun - it's not like the Romans were especially virtuous and obviously Lazio and Di Canio have ties to the far right, too.

    But it's interesting to consider who has the right to decide when something is beyond the pale. The N word is just a colour and the swastika is a religious symbol, but neither are considered acceptable (except in some music and at Upminster Bridge tube station).

    The N word was in the lyrics for the official England song for the Euros....
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165

    tlg86 said:

    I posted the Di Canio pic as a bit of fun - it's not like the Romans were especially virtuous and obviously Lazio and Di Canio have ties to the far right, too.

    But it's interesting to consider who has the right to decide when something is beyond the pale. The N word is just a colour and the swastika is a religious symbol, but neither are considered acceptable (except in some music and at Upminster Bridge tube station).

    The N word was in the lyrics for the official England song for the Euros....
    So it is. I assume it didn't get much air time.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,626
    Carnyx said:

    https://twitter.com/BrookesTimes/status/1415282011657363460

    This is absolutely despicable: sexist and racist.

    That is disgusting.
    Well, she *is* white, so....
    Trtying to see where the sexism is coming in - as the branks or something even more unfortunate?
    There is a long, and unpleasant tradition of gagging (literally and figuratively) women who say things that men don't like.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    tlg86 said:

    I posted the Di Canio pic as a bit of fun - it's not like the Romans were especially virtuous and obviously Lazio and Di Canio have ties to the far right, too.

    But it's interesting to consider who has the right to decide when something is beyond the pale. The N word is just a colour and the swastika is a religious symbol, but neither are considered acceptable (except in some music and at Upminster Bridge tube station).

    The N word was in the lyrics for the official England song for the Euros....
    I didn't realise there was an official England song, what was it?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    I posted the Di Canio pic as a bit of fun - it's not like the Romans were especially virtuous and obviously Lazio and Di Canio have ties to the far right, too.

    But it's interesting to consider who has the right to decide when something is beyond the pale. The N word is just a colour and the swastika is a religious symbol, but neither are considered acceptable (except in some music and at Upminster Bridge tube station).

    The N word was in the lyrics for the official England song for the Euros....
    So it is. I assume it didn't get much air time.
    Aaide from that, i am sure the kidz are down with the style, as its on trend, but not exactly a sing along-athon ala Sweeeeeeet Caroline..........
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,156
    edited July 2021

    Carnyx said:

    https://twitter.com/BrookesTimes/status/1415282011657363460

    This is absolutely despicable: sexist and racist.

    That is disgusting.
    Well, she *is* white, so....
    Trtying to see where the sexism is coming in - as the branks or something even more unfortunate?
    There is a long, and unpleasant tradition of gagging (literally and figuratively) women who say things that men don't like.
    Thanks, then it's the branks aka scold's bridle that is meant. Edit: Extraordinarily cloth-eared (to misuise a metaphor) for a cartoonist these days.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited July 2021

    tlg86 said:

    I posted the Di Canio pic as a bit of fun - it's not like the Romans were especially virtuous and obviously Lazio and Di Canio have ties to the far right, too.

    But it's interesting to consider who has the right to decide when something is beyond the pale. The N word is just a colour and the swastika is a religious symbol, but neither are considered acceptable (except in some music and at Upminster Bridge tube station).

    The N word was in the lyrics for the official England song for the Euros....
    I didn't realise there was an official England song, what was it?
    Ole ole ole...was all a bit drill rap -esque ditty.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Interesting.

    https://twitter.com/GideonSkinner/status/1415309577436946437

    Best historical rating of any government apart from Blair.

    Will we get a header on this?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,626
    edited July 2021
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    https://twitter.com/BrookesTimes/status/1415282011657363460

    This is absolutely despicable: sexist and racist.

    That is disgusting.
    Well, she *is* white, so....
    Trtying to see where the sexism is coming in - as the branks or something even more unfortunate?
    There is a long, and unpleasant tradition of gagging (literally and figuratively) women who say things that men don't like.
    Thanks, then it's the branks aka scold's bridle that is meant. Edit: Extraordinarily cloth-eared (to misuise a metaphor) for a cartoonist these days.
    Well, that's what I thought of when I saw it.

    But many people have no idea of history. Or think because they are virtuous they can't be bad people - "I belong to virtuous group X - therefore I can't be racist/sexist/etc"

    EDIT - forgot obvious reference to cartoonist from a somewhat progressive background who may/may not have been binned because of a cartoon he drew picturing.... Priti Patel.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Cookie said:

    Netherlands watch: 10,426 positives today, up from 3,600 a week ago. A big leap, but we are already down from 6-fold week-on-week increase to three-fold. Would be too optimistic to say 'flattening out' yet but rate of increase decreasing rapidly. Long way to go yet.
    Netherlands positives per capita now ahead of UK's - though we're yet to have the figures for the UK for 'sicky Wednesday' (an acceptable analog to 'murder Tuesday'?)

    Next Tues / Wed in the UK will be the big one to watch.
    I have heard about a number of infections today amongst people I or my lads know

  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772

    Phil said:


    I agree with much (almost all) of what Cyclefree says but bad laws to "send signals" that make good headlines, rather than fix problems, massively predate this administration stretching all the way back to Blair.

    That doesn't excuse what's being done now but to heap opprobrium for all of it just on Boris isn't accurate. Politicians have found it's worked for them in managing problems and perceptions, so they've kept doing it.

    Some of us still remember the Dangerous Dogs Act.

    We might coin a name for these laws that governments seek to bring in purely for electoral posturing instead of concrete need regardless of the legal consequences. Virtue Signalling Legislation perhaps?
    True, but I've never made my mind up about the Dangerous Dogs Act.

    The trouble is there are quite a lot of dangerous dogs around, badly handled or treated by bad owners too, and quite frankly some of them terrify me, so I'm not sure how repeal would make things better.

    Is there an alternative?
    You could prosecute the owner of the dog for any damage the dog causes as though the dog were an inanimate weapon under their control, such as a knife, because ultimately the owner should be responsible.

    Send a few dog owners to prison for assault or manslaughter and attitudes to dog ownership, breeding and training might change.

    Though that's the type of law you might find juries unwilling to convict.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    Greens fighting amongst themselves.

    First Bartley goes, now Berry.

    https://twitter.com/ITVNewsPolitics/status/1415311525439475725
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    Carnyx said:

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mr. Felix, cultish rituals are a substitute for useful action and a means by which members of said cult can know one another.

    I'm not a fan of this sort of thing, whether it's clapping at one's door, or falling to one's knees.

    It achieves nothing. Well, except stoking division when the straightforward message of opposing racism is something almost everyone would be happy to get behind if it weren't tethered to the political bullshit and iconoclast tendencies of BLM.

    Morris I reckon it is only you, @Leon, and Douglas Murray (who I rate btw) who have the faintest idea that the BLM movement is Marxist, that the BLM movement is a movement, or what the hell Marxism is.

    99.8% of the population sees people making a stand against racism, which undoubtedly exists in our society. Many younger perhaps who knows would-be racists see their heroes and role-models doing it and perhaps that gets them thinking that this racism thing is bad.
    Its extremely arrogant and conceited whataboutery.

    If lots of people are saying "I am doing this gesture against racism" then to have other people turn around and say "no you're not, this is a gesture in favour of Marxism" is extremely rude and hubristic.

    Saying anyone using an anti-racism gesture is Marxist because some are is as absurd as saying that anyone who flies the flag is racist because a minority of people doing so are racist.
    I see so gesture is in the eyes of the doer and never related to any political movement, eh Philip?

    ''are you going to come quietly Mr white-thug?''

    "Well no officer, because see, for me, that Nazi salute is actually my symbolic protest against climate change. As Philip Thompson has decreed, the meaning of gesture rests with the DOER. You must accept my version of what it means, because your opinion as passive viewer does not matter"
    The Nazi salute is universally associated with Nazis.

    An anti-racism knee gesture is pretty universally associated with being against racism. Next to nobody associates it with Marxism.
    Well, this Roman would beg to differ...


    Mussolini was allied to Hitler, remember?
    Eh, that's a Roman salute isn't it? But adopted as, and now widely remembered as, the Hitlergruss. Which everyone associates with the chaps with black uniforms and black, red and white armbands.
    Some symbols just get appropriated. The swastika, an ancient symbol used across Eurasia and in Hinduism especially, can now never be reclaimed from Nazism. Similarly the white costumes of penitents in cities across Spain were hijacked by Griffiths in. ‘Birth of a Nation’ and are now forever associated with the KKK.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,156

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    https://twitter.com/BrookesTimes/status/1415282011657363460

    This is absolutely despicable: sexist and racist.

    That is disgusting.
    Well, she *is* white, so....
    Trtying to see where the sexism is coming in - as the branks or something even more unfortunate?
    There is a long, and unpleasant tradition of gagging (literally and figuratively) women who say things that men don't like.
    Thanks, then it's the branks aka scold's bridle that is meant. Edit: Extraordinarily cloth-eared (to misuise a metaphor) for a cartoonist these days.
    Well, that's what I thought of when I saw it.

    But many people have no idea of history. Or think because they are virtuous they can't be bad people - "I belong to virtuous group X - therefore I can't be racist/sexist/etc"

    EDIT - forgot obvious reference to cartoonist from a somewhat progressive background who may/may not have been binned because of a cartoon he drew picturing.... Priti Patel.
    The bovine one? Yes, it's surprising how unexpected allusions can bite (no pun intended). Still don't get the racist bit though.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,257
    tlg86 said:

    I posted the Di Canio pic as a bit of fun - it's not like the Romans were especially virtuous and obviously Lazio and Di Canio have ties to the far right, too.

    But it's interesting to consider who has the right to decide when something is beyond the pale. The N word is just a colour and the swastika is a religious symbol, but neither are considered acceptable (except in some music and at Upminster Bridge tube station).

    And County Hall in Chelmsford (someone on here pointed that out, I think - I grew up there and had never noticed) https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-26337662
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758

    Phil said:


    I agree with much (almost all) of what Cyclefree says but bad laws to "send signals" that make good headlines, rather than fix problems, massively predate this administration stretching all the way back to Blair.

    That doesn't excuse what's being done now but to heap opprobrium for all of it just on Boris isn't accurate. Politicians have found it's worked for them in managing problems and perceptions, so they've kept doing it.

    Some of us still remember the Dangerous Dogs Act.

    We might coin a name for these laws that governments seek to bring in purely for electoral posturing instead of concrete need regardless of the legal consequences. Virtue Signalling Legislation perhaps?
    True, but I've never made my mind up about the Dangerous Dogs Act.

    The trouble is there are quite a lot of dangerous dogs around, badly handled or treated by bad owners too, and quite frankly some of them terrify me, so I'm not sure how repeal would make things better.

    Is there an alternative?
    You could prosecute the owner of the dog for any damage the dog causes as though the dog were an inanimate weapon under their control, such as a knife, because ultimately the owner should be responsible.

    Send a few dog owners to prison for assault or manslaughter and attitudes to dog ownership, breeding and training might change.

    Though that's the type of law you might find juries unwilling to convict.
    Compulsory third party insurance that can be checked via a chip id so that uninsured dogs can be lifted by dog patrols. The insurance companies would soon sort out the danger levels and price accordingly.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,626
    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mr. Felix, cultish rituals are a substitute for useful action and a means by which members of said cult can know one another.

    I'm not a fan of this sort of thing, whether it's clapping at one's door, or falling to one's knees.

    It achieves nothing. Well, except stoking division when the straightforward message of opposing racism is something almost everyone would be happy to get behind if it weren't tethered to the political bullshit and iconoclast tendencies of BLM.

    Morris I reckon it is only you, @Leon, and Douglas Murray (who I rate btw) who have the faintest idea that the BLM movement is Marxist, that the BLM movement is a movement, or what the hell Marxism is.

    99.8% of the population sees people making a stand against racism, which undoubtedly exists in our society. Many younger perhaps who knows would-be racists see their heroes and role-models doing it and perhaps that gets them thinking that this racism thing is bad.
    Its extremely arrogant and conceited whataboutery.

    If lots of people are saying "I am doing this gesture against racism" then to have other people turn around and say "no you're not, this is a gesture in favour of Marxism" is extremely rude and hubristic.

    Saying anyone using an anti-racism gesture is Marxist because some are is as absurd as saying that anyone who flies the flag is racist because a minority of people doing so are racist.
    I see so gesture is in the eyes of the doer and never related to any political movement, eh Philip?

    ''are you going to come quietly Mr white-thug?''

    "Well no officer, because see, for me, that Nazi salute is actually my symbolic protest against climate change. As Philip Thompson has decreed, the meaning of gesture rests with the DOER. You must accept my version of what it means, because your opinion as passive viewer does not matter"
    The Nazi salute is universally associated with Nazis.

    An anti-racism knee gesture is pretty universally associated with being against racism. Next to nobody associates it with Marxism.
    Well, this Roman would beg to differ...


    Mussolini was allied to Hitler, remember?
    Eh, that's a Roman salute isn't it? But adopted as, and now widely remembered as, the Hitlergruss. Which everyone associates with the chaps with black uniforms and black, red and white armbands.
    Some symbols just get appropriated. The swastika, an ancient symbol used across Eurasia and in Hinduism especially, can now never be reclaimed from Nazism. Similarly the white costumes of penitents in cities across Spain were hijacked by Griffiths in. ‘Birth of a Nation’ and are now forever associated with the KKK.
    Every now and again someone at the Guardian sees one of those processions in Spain and has a spasm...

    I remember trying to explain to a little old lady in Nepal, why one line of the little brass boxes she was selling to tourists was not... selling. Yup, covered in Swastikas, going the other way.....
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,926
    dr_spyn said:

    Greens fighting amongst themselves.

    First Bartley goes, now Berry.

    https://twitter.com/ITVNewsPolitics/status/1415311525439475725

    At least Bennett ended up PM of Israel.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,626

    Phil said:


    I agree with much (almost all) of what Cyclefree says but bad laws to "send signals" that make good headlines, rather than fix problems, massively predate this administration stretching all the way back to Blair.

    That doesn't excuse what's being done now but to heap opprobrium for all of it just on Boris isn't accurate. Politicians have found it's worked for them in managing problems and perceptions, so they've kept doing it.

    Some of us still remember the Dangerous Dogs Act.

    We might coin a name for these laws that governments seek to bring in purely for electoral posturing instead of concrete need regardless of the legal consequences. Virtue Signalling Legislation perhaps?
    True, but I've never made my mind up about the Dangerous Dogs Act.

    The trouble is there are quite a lot of dangerous dogs around, badly handled or treated by bad owners too, and quite frankly some of them terrify me, so I'm not sure how repeal would make things better.

    Is there an alternative?
    You could prosecute the owner of the dog for any damage the dog causes as though the dog were an inanimate weapon under their control, such as a knife, because ultimately the owner should be responsible.

    Send a few dog owners to prison for assault or manslaughter and attitudes to dog ownership, breeding and training might change.

    Though that's the type of law you might find juries unwilling to convict.
    Compulsory third party insurance that can be checked via a chip id so that uninsured dogs can be lifted by dog patrols. The insurance companies would soon sort out the danger levels and price accordingly.
    I can hear the errrrr. howling from the dog lobby, right now.

    That is, I think, a rather sensible proposal.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,626
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    https://twitter.com/BrookesTimes/status/1415282011657363460

    This is absolutely despicable: sexist and racist.

    That is disgusting.
    Well, she *is* white, so....
    Trtying to see where the sexism is coming in - as the branks or something even more unfortunate?
    There is a long, and unpleasant tradition of gagging (literally and figuratively) women who say things that men don't like.
    Thanks, then it's the branks aka scold's bridle that is meant. Edit: Extraordinarily cloth-eared (to misuise a metaphor) for a cartoonist these days.
    Well, that's what I thought of when I saw it.

    But many people have no idea of history. Or think because they are virtuous they can't be bad people - "I belong to virtuous group X - therefore I can't be racist/sexist/etc"

    EDIT - forgot obvious reference to cartoonist from a somewhat progressive background who may/may not have been binned because of a cartoon he drew picturing.... Priti Patel.
    The bovine one? Yes, it's surprising how unexpected allusions can bite (no pun intended). Still don't get the racist bit though.
    In the current cartoon or the bovine one?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,156

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mr. Felix, cultish rituals are a substitute for useful action and a means by which members of said cult can know one another.

    I'm not a fan of this sort of thing, whether it's clapping at one's door, or falling to one's knees.

    It achieves nothing. Well, except stoking division when the straightforward message of opposing racism is something almost everyone would be happy to get behind if it weren't tethered to the political bullshit and iconoclast tendencies of BLM.

    Morris I reckon it is only you, @Leon, and Douglas Murray (who I rate btw) who have the faintest idea that the BLM movement is Marxist, that the BLM movement is a movement, or what the hell Marxism is.

    99.8% of the population sees people making a stand against racism, which undoubtedly exists in our society. Many younger perhaps who knows would-be racists see their heroes and role-models doing it and perhaps that gets them thinking that this racism thing is bad.
    Its extremely arrogant and conceited whataboutery.

    If lots of people are saying "I am doing this gesture against racism" then to have other people turn around and say "no you're not, this is a gesture in favour of Marxism" is extremely rude and hubristic.

    Saying anyone using an anti-racism gesture is Marxist because some are is as absurd as saying that anyone who flies the flag is racist because a minority of people doing so are racist.
    I see so gesture is in the eyes of the doer and never related to any political movement, eh Philip?

    ''are you going to come quietly Mr white-thug?''

    "Well no officer, because see, for me, that Nazi salute is actually my symbolic protest against climate change. As Philip Thompson has decreed, the meaning of gesture rests with the DOER. You must accept my version of what it means, because your opinion as passive viewer does not matter"
    The Nazi salute is universally associated with Nazis.

    An anti-racism knee gesture is pretty universally associated with being against racism. Next to nobody associates it with Marxism.
    Well, this Roman would beg to differ...


    Mussolini was allied to Hitler, remember?
    Eh, that's a Roman salute isn't it? But adopted as, and now widely remembered as, the Hitlergruss. Which everyone associates with the chaps with black uniforms and black, red and white armbands.
    Some symbols just get appropriated. The swastika, an ancient symbol used across Eurasia and in Hinduism especially, can now never be reclaimed from Nazism. Similarly the white costumes of penitents in cities across Spain were hijacked by Griffiths in. ‘Birth of a Nation’ and are now forever associated with the KKK.
    Every now and again someone at the Guardian sees one of those processions in Spain and has a spasm...

    I remember trying to explain to a little old lady in Nepal, why one line of the little brass boxes she was selling to tourists was not... selling. Yup, covered in Swastikas, going the other way.....
    One has to feel slightly sorry for the Finnish and Latvian air forces having to ditch their traditional markings of a great big swastika because someone else came along ...
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,156
    edited July 2021

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    https://twitter.com/BrookesTimes/status/1415282011657363460

    This is absolutely despicable: sexist and racist.

    That is disgusting.
    Well, she *is* white, so....
    Trtying to see where the sexism is coming in - as the branks or something even more unfortunate?
    There is a long, and unpleasant tradition of gagging (literally and figuratively) women who say things that men don't like.
    Thanks, then it's the branks aka scold's bridle that is meant. Edit: Extraordinarily cloth-eared (to misuise a metaphor) for a cartoonist these days.
    Well, that's what I thought of when I saw it.

    But many people have no idea of history. Or think because they are virtuous they can't be bad people - "I belong to virtuous group X - therefore I can't be racist/sexist/etc"

    EDIT - forgot obvious reference to cartoonist from a somewhat progressive background who may/may not have been binned because of a cartoon he drew picturing.... Priti Patel.
    The bovine one? Yes, it's surprising how unexpected allusions can bite (no pun intended). Still don't get the racist bit though.
    In the current cartoon or the bovine one?
    Current. (Bovine one was obvious, though presumably accidental - Hindu link and all that.)
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    Mind you claiming asylum in the UK is risky even after you get here this is from a Home Office letter setting out reasons for refusing asylum to a person from Côte d’Ivoire in 2010 -

    image

    https://twitter.com/psychicyogamat/status/1415307811492409344
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,626
    Carnyx said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mr. Felix, cultish rituals are a substitute for useful action and a means by which members of said cult can know one another.

    I'm not a fan of this sort of thing, whether it's clapping at one's door, or falling to one's knees.

    It achieves nothing. Well, except stoking division when the straightforward message of opposing racism is something almost everyone would be happy to get behind if it weren't tethered to the political bullshit and iconoclast tendencies of BLM.

    Morris I reckon it is only you, @Leon, and Douglas Murray (who I rate btw) who have the faintest idea that the BLM movement is Marxist, that the BLM movement is a movement, or what the hell Marxism is.

    99.8% of the population sees people making a stand against racism, which undoubtedly exists in our society. Many younger perhaps who knows would-be racists see their heroes and role-models doing it and perhaps that gets them thinking that this racism thing is bad.
    Its extremely arrogant and conceited whataboutery.

    If lots of people are saying "I am doing this gesture against racism" then to have other people turn around and say "no you're not, this is a gesture in favour of Marxism" is extremely rude and hubristic.

    Saying anyone using an anti-racism gesture is Marxist because some are is as absurd as saying that anyone who flies the flag is racist because a minority of people doing so are racist.
    I see so gesture is in the eyes of the doer and never related to any political movement, eh Philip?

    ''are you going to come quietly Mr white-thug?''

    "Well no officer, because see, for me, that Nazi salute is actually my symbolic protest against climate change. As Philip Thompson has decreed, the meaning of gesture rests with the DOER. You must accept my version of what it means, because your opinion as passive viewer does not matter"
    The Nazi salute is universally associated with Nazis.

    An anti-racism knee gesture is pretty universally associated with being against racism. Next to nobody associates it with Marxism.
    Well, this Roman would beg to differ...


    Mussolini was allied to Hitler, remember?
    Eh, that's a Roman salute isn't it? But adopted as, and now widely remembered as, the Hitlergruss. Which everyone associates with the chaps with black uniforms and black, red and white armbands.
    Some symbols just get appropriated. The swastika, an ancient symbol used across Eurasia and in Hinduism especially, can now never be reclaimed from Nazism. Similarly the white costumes of penitents in cities across Spain were hijacked by Griffiths in. ‘Birth of a Nation’ and are now forever associated with the KKK.
    Every now and again someone at the Guardian sees one of those processions in Spain and has a spasm...

    I remember trying to explain to a little old lady in Nepal, why one line of the little brass boxes she was selling to tourists was not... selling. Yup, covered in Swastikas, going the other way.....
    One has to feel slightly sorry for the Finnish and Latvian air forces having to ditch their traditional markings of a great big swastika because someone else came along ...
    Maybe

    My wife had a bit of a start when the new neighbours painted a swastika on their doorstep......
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    dr_spyn said:

    Greens fighting amongst themselves.

    First Bartley goes, now Berry.

    https://twitter.com/ITVNewsPolitics/status/1415311525439475725

    It's a shame. Sian is very principled - we fell out because of her principles. It also really makes me so discouraged that the progressive parties in this country continue to tear themselves apart over this specific issue when so much else needs addressing so urgently.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059

    I see Sian Berry has resigned as co-leader following the appointment of several people she did not agree with to the Green "front bench".

    How are Green front bench appointments decided?

    They're elected. That's why she quit - because she could not serve with someone who held the views that one did.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,626
    eek said:

    Mind you claiming asylum in the UK is risky even after you get here this is from a Home Office letter setting out reasons for refusing asylum to a person from Côte d’Ivoire in 2010 -

    image

    https://twitter.com/psychicyogamat/status/1415307811492409344

    Well, the experience of those from Columbia is that providing you leave FARC alone and don't mess with their coke labs (or children) they are generally fairly live and let live - to the locals.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    DougSeal said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Greens fighting amongst themselves.

    First Bartley goes, now Berry.

    https://twitter.com/ITVNewsPolitics/status/1415311525439475725

    It's a shame. Sian is very principled - we fell out because of her principles. It also really makes me so discouraged that the progressive parties in this country continue to tear themselves apart over this specific issue when so much else needs addressing so urgently.
    It's an unsolvable issue though as both sides think the other side is 100% wrong while everyone else goes WTF are they arguing over.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,016
    This is absurd. On one hand we have the PM insisting that people should be free not to wear a mask on public transport. On the other hand we have his Secretary of State for Transport saying that its right for TfL to keep it mandatory to wear a mask on their services.

    Which is it? https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jul/14/shapps-mask-wearing-expected-to-remain-on-public-transport
  • CookieCookie Posts: 11,184

    Cookie said:

    Netherlands watch: 10,426 positives today, up from 3,600 a week ago. A big leap, but we are already down from 6-fold week-on-week increase to three-fold. Would be too optimistic to say 'flattening out' yet but rate of increase decreasing rapidly. Long way to go yet.
    Netherlands positives per capita now ahead of UK's - though we're yet to have the figures for the UK for 'sicky Wednesday' (an acceptable analog to 'murder Tuesday'?)

    Next Tues / Wed in the UK will be the big one to watch.
    After 'freedom' day? I don't think any changes from Monday will have time to feed into the figures by then.

    While I've long been arguing that we should be opening up, from a purely academic point of view, it's slightly frustrating that we are opening up next Monday - tracking the process of this wave of the epidemic is fascinating, and we're changing the parameters in the middle of the experiment.

    My expectation is that we will start to see a Netherlandsy pattern in a couple of weeks. In general, I don't think lockdown has that much impact - but there are a few big elements of it that almost certainly have an impact in keeping down R: largely, restricting the potential for superspreader events (nighclub closures etc.).
    That doesn't mean opening up is the wrong thing to do; it does mean I am expecting a serious spike in cases, particularly in the 18-30 bracket.

    Two weeks and three weeks today could see a very discouraging set of data indeed. After which, stabilisation and decline.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,156
    DougSeal said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Greens fighting amongst themselves.

    First Bartley goes, now Berry.

    https://twitter.com/ITVNewsPolitics/status/1415311525439475725

    It's a shame. Sian is very principled - we fell out because of her principles. It also really makes me so discouraged that the progressive parties in this country continue to tear themselves apart over this specific issue when so much else needs addressing so urgently.
    I had similar feelings when Andy Wightman left the Scottish Greens, also on the same general issue (but not the same stance) - it was a shame to lose him from Holyrood.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-55361550
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,626
    eek said:

    DougSeal said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Greens fighting amongst themselves.

    First Bartley goes, now Berry.

    https://twitter.com/ITVNewsPolitics/status/1415311525439475725

    It's a shame. Sian is very principled - we fell out because of her principles. It also really makes me so discouraged that the progressive parties in this country continue to tear themselves apart over this specific issue when so much else needs addressing so urgently.
    It's an unsolvable issue though as both sides think the other side is 100% wrong while everyone else goes WTF are they arguing over.
    Monty Python were writing jokes, not an instruction manual...
  • Sweeney74Sweeney74 Posts: 46

    Phil said:


    I agree with much (almost all) of what Cyclefree says but bad laws to "send signals" that make good headlines, rather than fix problems, massively predate this administration stretching all the way back to Blair.

    That doesn't excuse what's being done now but to heap opprobrium for all of it just on Boris isn't accurate. Politicians have found it's worked for them in managing problems and perceptions, so they've kept doing it.

    Some of us still remember the Dangerous Dogs Act.

    We might coin a name for these laws that governments seek to bring in purely for electoral posturing instead of concrete need regardless of the legal consequences. Virtue Signalling Legislation perhaps?
    True, but I've never made my mind up about the Dangerous Dogs Act.

    The trouble is there are quite a lot of dangerous dogs around, badly handled or treated by bad owners too, and quite frankly some of them terrify me, so I'm not sure how repeal would make things better.

    Is there an alternative?
    You could prosecute the owner of the dog for any damage the dog causes as though the dog were an inanimate weapon under their control, such as a knife, because ultimately the owner should be responsible.

    Send a few dog owners to prison for assault or manslaughter and attitudes to dog ownership, breeding and training might change.

    Though that's the type of law you might find juries unwilling to convict.
    Compulsory third party insurance that can be checked via a chip id so that uninsured dogs can be lifted by dog patrols. The insurance companies would soon sort out the danger levels and price accordingly.
    A sensible proposal.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    eek said:

    DougSeal said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Greens fighting amongst themselves.

    First Bartley goes, now Berry.

    https://twitter.com/ITVNewsPolitics/status/1415311525439475725

    It's a shame. Sian is very principled - we fell out because of her principles. It also really makes me so discouraged that the progressive parties in this country continue to tear themselves apart over this specific issue when so much else needs addressing so urgently.
    It's an unsolvable issue though as both sides think the other side is 100% wrong while everyone else goes WTF are they arguing over.
    One of those times where I hate to agree with you but have to. As I posted the other day, all we have is a shared dislike of the current government, we're framenting even within our own parties.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 11,184

    eek said:

    DougSeal said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Greens fighting amongst themselves.

    First Bartley goes, now Berry.

    https://twitter.com/ITVNewsPolitics/status/1415311525439475725

    It's a shame. Sian is very principled - we fell out because of her principles. It also really makes me so discouraged that the progressive parties in this country continue to tear themselves apart over this specific issue when so much else needs addressing so urgently.
    It's an unsolvable issue though as both sides think the other side is 100% wrong while everyone else goes WTF are they arguing over.
    Monty Python were writing jokes, not an instruction manual...
    I can't make the link work, but I'm guessing transexuals?

    It's absolutely insane that such a fringe issue on which 95% of people hold a non-fundamental opinion really doesn't need falling out over occupies such a huge proportion of political attention. The Lib Dems appeared to spend around a quarter of the last election campaign focusing on it.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772
    eek said:

    Mind you claiming asylum in the UK is risky even after you get here this is from a Home Office letter setting out reasons for refusing asylum to a person from Côte d’Ivoire in 2010 -

    image

    https://twitter.com/psychicyogamat/status/1415307811492409344

    Yes, the main problem with the asylum system is that it's incredibly difficult for refugees to get refugee status in a reasonable length of time.

    The incredible difficulty is created in part as deliberate policy, and in part by incompetence and institutional neglect.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,405
    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mr. Felix, cultish rituals are a substitute for useful action and a means by which members of said cult can know one another.

    I'm not a fan of this sort of thing, whether it's clapping at one's door, or falling to one's knees.

    It achieves nothing. Well, except stoking division when the straightforward message of opposing racism is something almost everyone would be happy to get behind if it weren't tethered to the political bullshit and iconoclast tendencies of BLM.

    Morris I reckon it is only you, @Leon, and Douglas Murray (who I rate btw) who have the faintest idea that the BLM movement is Marxist, that the BLM movement is a movement, or what the hell Marxism is.

    99.8% of the population sees people making a stand against racism, which undoubtedly exists in our society. Many younger perhaps who knows would-be racists see their heroes and role-models doing it and perhaps that gets them thinking that this racism thing is bad.
    Its extremely arrogant and conceited whataboutery.

    If lots of people are saying "I am doing this gesture against racism" then to have other people turn around and say "no you're not, this is a gesture in favour of Marxism" is extremely rude and hubristic.

    Saying anyone using an anti-racism gesture is Marxist because some are is as absurd as saying that anyone who flies the flag is racist because a minority of people doing so are racist.
    I see so gesture is in the eyes of the doer and never related to any political movement, eh Philip?

    ''are you going to come quietly Mr white-thug?''

    "Well no officer, because see, for me, that Nazi salute is actually my symbolic protest against climate change. As Philip Thompson has decreed, the meaning of gesture rests with the DOER. You must accept my version of what it means, because your opinion as passive viewer does not matter"
    The Nazi salute is universally associated with Nazis.

    An anti-racism knee gesture is pretty universally associated with being against racism. Next to nobody associates it with Marxism.
    Well, this Roman would beg to differ...


    These lads from the "Peak Army" are not performing Nazi salutes:

    https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7374/9495354860_2be9210824_b.jpg

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776

    Carnyx said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mr. Felix, cultish rituals are a substitute for useful action and a means by which members of said cult can know one another.

    I'm not a fan of this sort of thing, whether it's clapping at one's door, or falling to one's knees.

    It achieves nothing. Well, except stoking division when the straightforward message of opposing racism is something almost everyone would be happy to get behind if it weren't tethered to the political bullshit and iconoclast tendencies of BLM.

    Morris I reckon it is only you, @Leon, and Douglas Murray (who I rate btw) who have the faintest idea that the BLM movement is Marxist, that the BLM movement is a movement, or what the hell Marxism is.

    99.8% of the population sees people making a stand against racism, which undoubtedly exists in our society. Many younger perhaps who knows would-be racists see their heroes and role-models doing it and perhaps that gets them thinking that this racism thing is bad.
    Its extremely arrogant and conceited whataboutery.

    If lots of people are saying "I am doing this gesture against racism" then to have other people turn around and say "no you're not, this is a gesture in favour of Marxism" is extremely rude and hubristic.

    Saying anyone using an anti-racism gesture is Marxist because some are is as absurd as saying that anyone who flies the flag is racist because a minority of people doing so are racist.
    I see so gesture is in the eyes of the doer and never related to any political movement, eh Philip?

    ''are you going to come quietly Mr white-thug?''

    "Well no officer, because see, for me, that Nazi salute is actually my symbolic protest against climate change. As Philip Thompson has decreed, the meaning of gesture rests with the DOER. You must accept my version of what it means, because your opinion as passive viewer does not matter"
    The Nazi salute is universally associated with Nazis.

    An anti-racism knee gesture is pretty universally associated with being against racism. Next to nobody associates it with Marxism.
    Well, this Roman would beg to differ...


    Mussolini was allied to Hitler, remember?
    Eh, that's a Roman salute isn't it? But adopted as, and now widely remembered as, the Hitlergruss. Which everyone associates with the chaps with black uniforms and black, red and white armbands.
    Some symbols just get appropriated. The swastika, an ancient symbol used across Eurasia and in Hinduism especially, can now never be reclaimed from Nazism. Similarly the white costumes of penitents in cities across Spain were hijacked by Griffiths in. ‘Birth of a Nation’ and are now forever associated with the KKK.
    Every now and again someone at the Guardian sees one of those processions in Spain and has a spasm...

    I remember trying to explain to a little old lady in Nepal, why one line of the little brass boxes she was selling to tourists was not... selling. Yup, covered in Swastikas, going the other way.....
    One has to feel slightly sorry for the Finnish and Latvian air forces having to ditch their traditional markings of a great big swastika because someone else came along ...
    Maybe

    My wife had a bit of a start when the new neighbours painted a swastika on their doorstep......
    When I lived in Kenton, you saw more swastikas than at Martin Borman’s stag night.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited July 2021
    Cookie said:


    Cookie said:

    Netherlands watch: 10,426 positives today, up from 3,600 a week ago. A big leap, but we are already down from 6-fold week-on-week increase to three-fold. Would be too optimistic to say 'flattening out' yet but rate of increase decreasing rapidly. Long way to go yet.
    Netherlands positives per capita now ahead of UK's - though we're yet to have the figures for the UK for 'sicky Wednesday' (an acceptable analog to 'murder Tuesday'?)

    Next Tues / Wed in the UK will be the big one to watch.
    After 'freedom' day? I don't think any changes from Monday will have time to feed into the figures by then.

    While I've long been arguing that we should be opening up, from a purely academic point of view, it's slightly frustrating that we are opening up next Monday - tracking the process of this wave of the epidemic is fascinating, and we're changing the parameters in the middle of the experiment.

    My expectation is that we will start to see a Netherlandsy pattern in a couple of weeks. In general, I don't think lockdown has that much impact - but there are a few big elements of it that almost certainly have an impact in keeping down R: largely, restricting the potential for superspreader events (nighclub closures etc.).
    That doesn't mean opening up is the wrong thing to do; it does mean I am expecting a serious spike in cases, particularly in the 18-30 bracket.

    Two weeks and three weeks today could see a very discouraging set of data indeed. After which, stabilisation and decline.
    No no, I was talking about if all the football chaos has an impact.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776

    Carnyx said:

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mr. Felix, cultish rituals are a substitute for useful action and a means by which members of said cult can know one another.

    I'm not a fan of this sort of thing, whether it's clapping at one's door, or falling to one's knees.

    It achieves nothing. Well, except stoking division when the straightforward message of opposing racism is something almost everyone would be happy to get behind if it weren't tethered to the political bullshit and iconoclast tendencies of BLM.

    Morris I reckon it is only you, @Leon, and Douglas Murray (who I rate btw) who have the faintest idea that the BLM movement is Marxist, that the BLM movement is a movement, or what the hell Marxism is.

    99.8% of the population sees people making a stand against racism, which undoubtedly exists in our society. Many younger perhaps who knows would-be racists see their heroes and role-models doing it and perhaps that gets them thinking that this racism thing is bad.
    Its extremely arrogant and conceited whataboutery.

    If lots of people are saying "I am doing this gesture against racism" then to have other people turn around and say "no you're not, this is a gesture in favour of Marxism" is extremely rude and hubristic.

    Saying anyone using an anti-racism gesture is Marxist because some are is as absurd as saying that anyone who flies the flag is racist because a minority of people doing so are racist.
    I see so gesture is in the eyes of the doer and never related to any political movement, eh Philip?

    ''are you going to come quietly Mr white-thug?''

    "Well no officer, because see, for me, that Nazi salute is actually my symbolic protest against climate change. As Philip Thompson has decreed, the meaning of gesture rests with the DOER. You must accept my version of what it means, because your opinion as passive viewer does not matter"
    The Nazi salute is universally associated with Nazis.

    An anti-racism knee gesture is pretty universally associated with being against racism. Next to nobody associates it with Marxism.
    Well, this Roman would beg to differ...


    Mussolini was allied to Hitler, remember?
    Eh, that's a Roman salute isn't it? But adopted as, and now widely remembered as, the Hitlergruss. Which everyone associates with the chaps with black uniforms and black, red and white armbands.
    In his second incarnation at Italian dictator, Mussolini moved from fascism to full Nazi. See the Salo Republic.
    The subject of an especially nauseating film.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,405
    dr_spyn said:

    Greens fighting amongst themselves.

    First Bartley goes, now Berry.

    https://twitter.com/ITVNewsPolitics/status/1415311525439475725

    I guess she wants to stand on a "Save the Trans-Whales" platform.

    This does my head in. It's the Environment, stupid. You are the Green Party, not the Woke Party. Try doing exactly what is says on the tin.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,587
    darkage said:

    with regard to the RNLI problem, on reflection it looks more and more like the problem may rest with Priti Patel. She acts from the gut and tries to drive through what she thinks is right, and has had a good run, with a bit of luck. However, she has never come across as being particularly appreciative of the nuances of her position, in the manner that Amber Rudd and Theresa May were.

    You mean she's a populist chancer ?
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,461
    edited July 2021
    FF43 said:

    darkage said:

    with regard to the RNLI problem, on reflection it looks more and more like the problem may rest with Priti Patel. She acts from the gut and tries to drive through what she thinks is right, and has had a good run, with a bit of luck. However, she has never come across as being particularly appreciative of the nuances of her position, in the manner that Amber Rudd and Theresa May were.

    I broadly agree. Maybe that's because Priti Patel is too interested in gesture politics, even more so than the England football team? Her 'solutions' are those that appeal to her Essex base, rather than focusing on the extraordinary complexity of resolving the migrant/asylum seeker issue. Diplomatic skills may also be helpful, I guess, in discussions with the French and others.
    I don't think there is an equivalence between the gesture politics of Patel and the England team. Taking the knee ostensibly is to highlight racism, which is a blot on any society. Culture war aims to disrespect other people's principles and opinions. The first might be naive, but people can see the good intentions behind it. Disrespecting other people is not nice and at the extremes actually sinister. The Johnson regime wasn't prepared to be called out, and certainly not by very polite and articulate young footballers. To be fair (if that's the right word), Johnson doesn't actually believe in his own Culture War. He is totally cynical about Culture War because he thinks benefits from it. If the pushback shows that maybe it isn't the slamdunk he thought it was, that's all to the good.
    Just for the record, I wasn't suggesting that the England team's actions against racism were 'gesture politics'. I was citing Ms Patel herself, who made the reference. Just making sure that my reputation as a solid leftie isn't traduced.

    And as it happens I agree with you. Ironically, I think the PM is not at all a racist himself (despite his careless use of language in the past), but is too willing to let the dog whistle blow around him. When he realises it is having a negative impact, he'll drop it quickly - indeed, that may already have happened with his request that racists should "crawl back under the rock they came from" at Monday's press conference. He may have some work to do in his own party, though.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Selebian said:

    tlg86 said:

    I posted the Di Canio pic as a bit of fun - it's not like the Romans were especially virtuous and obviously Lazio and Di Canio have ties to the far right, too.

    But it's interesting to consider who has the right to decide when something is beyond the pale. The N word is just a colour and the swastika is a religious symbol, but neither are considered acceptable (except in some music and at Upminster Bridge tube station).

    And County Hall in Chelmsford (someone on here pointed that out, I think - I grew up there and had never noticed) https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-26337662
    If I remember correctly, Swastikas are also on the Indian High Commission building in Aldwych
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,587

    I agree with much (almost all) of what Cyclefree says but bad laws to "send signals" that make good headlines, rather than fix problems, massively predate this administration stretching all the way back to Blair.

    That doesn't excuse what's being done now but to heap opprobrium for all of it just on Boris isn't accurate. Politicians have found it's worked for them in managing problems and perceptions, so they've kept doing it.

    A fair comment, but we only have the one government right now.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    Sajid Javid

    75% of all adults second dosed
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    What a bunch of wasters the Greens are.

    Imagine going so far as to resign the leadership because trans.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 11,184

    Cookie said:


    Cookie said:

    Netherlands watch: 10,426 positives today, up from 3,600 a week ago. A big leap, but we are already down from 6-fold week-on-week increase to three-fold. Would be too optimistic to say 'flattening out' yet but rate of increase decreasing rapidly. Long way to go yet.
    Netherlands positives per capita now ahead of UK's - though we're yet to have the figures for the UK for 'sicky Wednesday' (an acceptable analog to 'murder Tuesday'?)

    Next Tues / Wed in the UK will be the big one to watch.
    After 'freedom' day? I don't think any changes from Monday will have time to feed into the figures by then.

    While I've long been arguing that we should be opening up, from a purely academic point of view, it's slightly frustrating that we are opening up next Monday - tracking the process of this wave of the epidemic is fascinating, and we're changing the parameters in the middle of the experiment.

    My expectation is that we will start to see a Netherlandsy pattern in a couple of weeks. In general, I don't think lockdown has that much impact - but there are a few big elements of it that almost certainly have an impact in keeping down R: largely, restricting the potential for superspreader events (nighclub closures etc.).
    That doesn't mean opening up is the wrong thing to do; it does mean I am expecting a serious spike in cases, particularly in the 18-30 bracket.

    Two weeks and three weeks today could see a very discouraging set of data indeed. After which, stabilisation and decline.
    No no, I was talking about if all the football chaos has an impact.
    Ah, I see!
    That should be coming through this week, presumably, if it's had an impact. My expectation is that it won't have had that great an impact. But there maybe an element of generalising from myself there - that is, I watched it at home.
  • MaffewMaffew Posts: 235

    Sajid Javid

    75% of all adults second dosed

    Surely you mean 2/3? Unless it went up by nearly 9% overnight.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    dr_spyn said:

    Greens fighting amongst themselves.

    First Bartley goes, now Berry.

    https://twitter.com/ITVNewsPolitics/status/1415311525439475725

    I guess she wants to stand on a "Save the Trans-Whales" platform.

    This does my head in. It's the Environment, stupid. You are the Green Party, not the Woke Party. Try doing exactly what is says on the tin.
    Now you've gone and done it. They'll rebrand, sure as vegan egg-substitute patties are vegan egg-substitute patties.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    What a bunch of wasters the Greens are.

    Imagine going so far as to resign the leadership because trans.

    Sunil was going to run for next leader, but only because he thought it was about trains.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    edited July 2021

    Sajid Javid

    75% of all adults second dosed

    Isn't it 66%?

    Ah I see what he's done, he's used the current number of first doses as the denominator, not all adults. More than a bit misleading.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    Nigelb said:

    Carnyx said:

    tlg86 said:

    A tunnel under Guildford? That would be, err, challenging.

    Naah. Cut and cover...
    The geology at Guildford can't be too different from the Hog's Back section (the big one below the map). Maybe it's a doddle to the heirs of I. K. Brunel and G. Stephenson, but it looks awfully tricky to me. And one wonders aboiut the scope for subsidence with such complex geology.

    http://www.largeimages.bgs.ac.uk/iip/mapsportal.html?id=1001778
    IANAE, but geology can almost always be engineered out by altering the boring machine or tunnelling technique. This is one of the reasons why I think Musk's Boring Company is on a hiding to nothing: they seem to want one type of boring machine for any type of ground.

    If the French could build a subway and station through mud under the Seine by freezing the ground 120 years ago, we can build in Guildford.
    What Musk is reaching for is automating/reducing the workforce/vertical integration. The enormous layering of contracting out the counteracting out of the contracting out that goes on in big infrastructure projects bears a striking resemblance to the organisational structure used in big aerospace.
    I can see that, but AIUI it's not the case with actual tunnelling, which is fairly efficient.

    The problem occurs with the later parts: take Crossrail, where the tunnelling went quite well, but the mess started with the fitting out. Musk is essentially ignoring this part by using the simplest possible solution inside the tunnel.
    Well, yes - by reducing the complexity of the solution, the method becomes easier.

    For example, using ethernet (essentially) on your rocket was considered insane. But it reduces the cabling complexity by orders of magnitude, and runs over fibre nicely, so you don't have to worry about antenna effects.
    Yes... but as I said the other day, the complexity of the systems are often necessary, e.g. for safety. These systems are really easy to miss when you design a new system to save money, it can have significant later costs.
    Designing a system to be more complex to increase safety is often a bad sign. Since the complexity is then a great place for bugs to hide in.

    Designing a system to be less efficient, but simpler is often a good way to increase reliability.
    Except you have the Swiss Cheese Model: layerings of safety, with each layer created by experience. This adds complexity, but makes them safer. New systems tend not to.

    A terrible example of this was the German Transrapid Maglev - where brochures said that collisions were impossible. Before a collision killed 23 people. They kidded themselves that the engineering stopped collisions, when human factors intervened.

    IMO too many engineers fail to ask the vital question: "How does it fail?"
    Not true of Musk - he repeatedly blows his new rockets up to see just that.
    But that's because Musk comes from a software background where we adopt an iterative approach to ensure you get things out the door quickly.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    Maffew said:

    Sajid Javid

    75% of all adults second dosed

    Surely you mean 2/3? Unless it went up by nearly 9% overnight.
    Strange as a newsflash said 75% but I think your figures are the correct ones

    Thank you
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    MaxPB said:

    Sajid Javid

    75% of all adults second dosed

    Isn't it 66%?

    Ah I see what he's done, he's used the current number of first doses as the denominator, not all adults. More than a bit misleading.
    I believe 66% is correct and the newsflash was fake news
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited July 2021
    I’ve had an unusual spike in anecdotal contacts being pinged by NHS app today. Suspect today’s case numbers could show a big jump.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    edited July 2021
    deleted



  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,978
    alex_ said:

    I’ve had an usual spike in anecdotal contacts being pinged by NHS app today. Suspect today’s case numbers could show a big jump.

    My holiday starts Friday, I'm now in that window where I cannot cancel without having to pay for the full stay, so I'm fully expecting to get pinged soon.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    alex_ said:

    I’ve had an usual spike in anecdotal contacts being pinged by NHS app today. Suspect today’s case numbers could show a big jump.

    My holiday starts Friday, I'm now in that window where I cannot cancel without having to pay for the full stay, so I'm fully expecting to get pinged soon.
    Time to put phone on airplane mode.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    alex_ said:

    I’ve had an unusual spike in anecdotal contacts being pinged by NHS app today. Suspect today’s case numbers could show a big jump.

    We're looking at a number between 41k and 45k. Anything over or under that would be a surprise.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004

    For the third day running Venue Cymru in Llandudno, our vaccine centre, had long queues of young people

    So good to see
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    edited July 2021

    alex_ said:

    I’ve had an usual spike in anecdotal contacts being pinged by NHS app today. Suspect today’s case numbers could show a big jump.

    My holiday starts Friday, I'm now in that window where I cannot cancel without having to pay for the full stay, so I'm fully expecting to get pinged soon.
    Time to put phone on airplane mode.
    Friend's husband +ve, they took their daughter out of school as mandated self-isolation. Are now going to pay for a private PCR test for the daughter so if it's +ve she won't "have to" stay indoors for 10 days.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,016

    alex_ said:

    I’ve had an usual spike in anecdotal contacts being pinged by NHS app today. Suspect today’s case numbers could show a big jump.

    My holiday starts Friday, I'm now in that window where I cannot cancel without having to pay for the full stay, so I'm fully expecting to get pinged soon.
    Time to put phone on airplane mode.
    As RVI Newcastle staff are reportedly being instructed to delete the app, why not do the same? NHS Test and Trace to be deleted by NHS Staff so that enough of them are still able to work to allow the hospital to function. Yay.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9787839/Savills-estate-agent-37-arrested-vile-racist-tweet-black-England-stars.html

    Bone, a commercial building manager, claimed that his Twitter account had been hacked after a message was posted on his profile on Sunday which said: 'N*****s ruined it for us.' After he was widely accused of being a racist, the post was deleted and Bone called for police to investigate.

    Three officers carrying evidence bags and a police radio could be seen searching Bone's terraced home in Manchester and spent 20 minutes gathering evidence before they left clutching a laptop. In a statement this afternoon, GMP said a suspect remains in custody for questioning.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,226
    Does anyone know of a private test to confirm whether the vaccines have resulted in antibodies?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,978

    alex_ said:

    I’ve had an usual spike in anecdotal contacts being pinged by NHS app today. Suspect today’s case numbers could show a big jump.

    My holiday starts Friday, I'm now in that window where I cannot cancel without having to pay for the full stay, so I'm fully expecting to get pinged soon.
    Time to put phone on airplane mode.
    Tempted to delete the app.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    14 July 2021 - Because of a processing issue, today's update is delayed.

    Excel broken again....
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    alex_ said:

    I’ve had an usual spike in anecdotal contacts being pinged by NHS app today. Suspect today’s case numbers could show a big jump.

    My holiday starts Friday, I'm now in that window where I cannot cancel without having to pay for the full stay, so I'm fully expecting to get pinged soon.
    Time to put phone on airplane mode.
    Tempted to delete the app.
    I am genuinely amazed you have it on your phone.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    edited July 2021

    alex_ said:

    I’ve had an usual spike in anecdotal contacts being pinged by NHS app today. Suspect today’s case numbers could show a big jump.

    My holiday starts Friday, I'm now in that window where I cannot cancel without having to pay for the full stay, so I'm fully expecting to get pinged soon.
    I'm not being funny, turn the app off or delete it. You're double jabbed and unless you get a call from the actual team consider an app ping unserious. A friend of mine has a pretty critical job at a pharma company and is simply unable to take time off without giving a lot of notice so they can redo staffing to ensure his work is properly covered. He got pinged by the app and weighed up his choices. Luckily his employer has the capability to do rapid PCR testing and he decided to mask up and go in, do the PCR test on arrival and on leaving every day. After 10 days of two of them per day nothing showed up.

    It's completely hopeless and the idea that it has stopped any significant number of infections is a joke, the whole trace part of the test and trace function is laughable.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited July 2021
    moonshine said:

    Does anyone know of a private test to confirm whether the vaccines have resulted in antibodies?

    BUPA offer one (£65)

    https://www.bupa.co.uk/health/payg/covid-testing

    I'm sure there are other firms as well

    Edit: Sorry, that test doesn't work for the response to vaccines, only infections.

    Try this one:

    https://monitormyhealth.org.uk/covid19-antibody-and-vaccine-immunity-test
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,978

    14 July 2021 - Because of a processing issue, today's update is delayed.

    Excel broken again....

    So that means more than 1,048,576 cases.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited July 2021
    EU unveils sweeping climate change plan

    The scale of this 12-pronged plan is breathtaking. It will likely have an impact on every citizen of Europe in almost every aspect of their lives.

    One of the most eye-catching proposals is a carbon border tax on goods like steel, cement and fertilizer to ensure that European industry, which has to pay for permits to use carbon, can compete. However, the proposal is contentious and could spark a trade war with China and the US.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57833807
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,978
    TOPPING said:

    alex_ said:

    I’ve had an usual spike in anecdotal contacts being pinged by NHS app today. Suspect today’s case numbers could show a big jump.

    My holiday starts Friday, I'm now in that window where I cannot cancel without having to pay for the full stay, so I'm fully expecting to get pinged soon.
    Time to put phone on airplane mode.
    Tempted to delete the app.
    I am genuinely amazed you have it on your phone.
    I care about people.

    Keeping the NHS app because that is fab for so many non Covid-19 reasons.
  • Sweeney74Sweeney74 Posts: 46

    alex_ said:

    I’ve had an usual spike in anecdotal contacts being pinged by NHS app today. Suspect today’s case numbers could show a big jump.

    My holiday starts Friday, I'm now in that window where I cannot cancel without having to pay for the full stay, so I'm fully expecting to get pinged soon.
    Time to put phone on airplane mode.
    Tempted to delete the app.
    Surprised you've not done that already TBH
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,978
    MaxPB said:

    alex_ said:

    I’ve had an usual spike in anecdotal contacts being pinged by NHS app today. Suspect today’s case numbers could show a big jump.

    My holiday starts Friday, I'm now in that window where I cannot cancel without having to pay for the full stay, so I'm fully expecting to get pinged soon.
    I'm not being funny, turn the app off or delete it. You're double jabbed and unless you get a call from the actual team consider an app ping unserious. A friend of mine has a pretty critical job at a pharma company and is simply unable to take time off without giving a lot of notice so they can redo staffing to ensure his work is properly covered. He got pinged by the app and weighed up his choices. Luckily his employer has the capability to do rapid PCR testing and he decided to mask up and go in, do the PCR test on arrival and on leaving every day. After 10 days of two of them per day nothing showed up.

    It's completely hopeless and the idea that it has stopped any significant number of infections is a joke, the whole trace part of the test and trace function is laughable.
    Yup, I got asked to self isolate for 2 days back in January, so for the previous 8 days they hadn't realised.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited July 2021
    MaxPB said:

    alex_ said:

    I’ve had an usual spike in anecdotal contacts being pinged by NHS app today. Suspect today’s case numbers could show a big jump.

    My holiday starts Friday, I'm now in that window where I cannot cancel without having to pay for the full stay, so I'm fully expecting to get pinged soon.
    It's completely hopeless and the idea that it has stopped any significant number of infections is a joke, the whole trace part of the test and trace function is laughable.
    I think some of us did say this, especially when it was clear Google and Apple had handicapped the whole procedure. And that the only way you can do this is via South Korean style state spying on your whole life.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Left on tories stopping asylum seekers fleeing the safety of France by sea...

    Unfeeling racists!

    Also left on Biden administration stopping Cubans fleeing horrible oppression in Cuba by sea...

    Silence.

  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631

    EU unveils sweeping climate change plan

    The scale of this 12-pronged plan is breathtaking. It will likely have an impact on every citizen of Europe in almost every aspect of their lives.

    One of the most eye-catching proposals is a carbon border tax on goods like steel, cement and fertilizer to ensure that European industry, which has to pay for permits to use carbon, can compete. However, the proposal is contentious and could spark a trade war with China and the US.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57833807

    The french will be dusting off those yellow jackets in 3, 2, 1....
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,626

    Left on tories stopping asylum seekers fleeing the safety of France by sea...

    Unfeeling racists!

    Also left on Biden administration stopping Cubans fleeing horrible oppression in Cuba by sea...

    Silence.

    So if the new asylum centre is in Cuba.......
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    TOPPING said:

    alex_ said:

    I’ve had an usual spike in anecdotal contacts being pinged by NHS app today. Suspect today’s case numbers could show a big jump.

    My holiday starts Friday, I'm now in that window where I cannot cancel without having to pay for the full stay, so I'm fully expecting to get pinged soon.
    Time to put phone on airplane mode.
    Tempted to delete the app.
    I am genuinely amazed you have it on your phone.
    I care about people.

    Keeping the NHS app because that is fab for so many non Covid-19 reasons.
    Leave it on, and if you're pinged do an LFT every day to check you're not actually infected. That way you've got a very good chance of not passing infection on to others, in the event that it was a potentially infectious contact. It's not 100% reliable as an approach, but it's pretty good.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited July 2021
    UK figures for 14 July 2021: 42,302 new cases | 49 new deaths within 28 days of a positive test | 46,037,090 people have now received the first dose of a vaccine | 35,155,767 have received a 2nd dose.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884
    42,302 cases and 49 deaths
This discussion has been closed.