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C&A: The by-election campaign that was totally ignored by the media – politicalbetting.com

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  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,983

    eek said:

    https://twitter.com/TechnicallyRon/status/1412736076339466243

    2019: "If young people didn't spend all their money on fancy coffees they would be able to afford a house"

    2021: "If young people don't go back to offices and buy fancy coffees then the economy is going to implode"

    Pretty sure fancy coffees shouldn't have such power tbh

    Maybe, if young people spend all their money on a house instead of coffee, then the economy implodes?
    If young people spend their money on a house, then they'll be allowing someone who already made out like a bandito in the housing market to make an even bigger profit.

    Yay!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,745
    rcs1000 said:

    eek said:

    https://twitter.com/TechnicallyRon/status/1412736076339466243

    2019: "If young people didn't spend all their money on fancy coffees they would be able to afford a house"

    2021: "If young people don't go back to offices and buy fancy coffees then the economy is going to implode"

    Pretty sure fancy coffees shouldn't have such power tbh

    Maybe, if young people spend all their money on a house instead of coffee, then the economy implodes?
    If young people spend their money on a house, then they'll be allowing someone who already made out like a bandito in the housing market to make an even bigger profit.

    Yay!
    Then the bandito buys coffee......
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,267
    Alistair said:

    Mustique report is is as devastating as a report that doesn't find him guilty can be.

    Sanctioning the PM brings the office into disrepute, so best to err on the side of caution. I suspect any backbench MP wouldn't get the benefit of the vaguest doubt bestowed upon Johnson.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,114
    The bad news: there are far too many scientifically illiterate scaredy cats out there.

    The good news: the number of club hating authoritarians is small - fun lovin' PBers can beat them off without the need of a stats bus.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,983
    Cookie said:
    I live in Los Angeles. There is no mask mandate (although there is guidance). I'd estimate 15-20% of people in shops wear masks, and that these people are almost entirely older.

    I don't see why reality should be very different in the UK.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Completely off topic but the markets are taking a shellacking today. Remember inflation? Not so much of a concern apparently, now the concern is about growth. US weekly claims also not great.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,660
    '[...] Sharmen Rahman, a Labour councillor in Leicester [...] added that she was not sure what the ban would mean in practice, as Leicester did not have a local BLM organisation.'

    and

    'A spokesperson for the Leicestershire PCC said: “I can confirm that Mr Matthews directed his staff to have no contact with the Black Lives Matter organisation – BLM UK – for the reasons outlined in his blog.

    “For clarity, the organisation is not the same as the Black Lives Matter movement, something he has previously supported and on which his stance is unchanged.”'
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,983
    MrEd said:

    Completely off topic but the markets are taking a shellacking today. Remember inflation? Not so much of a concern apparently, now the concern is about growth. US weekly claims also not great.

    The market is still up 15% in the first six months of this year - I think it'll survive a 1% down day.

    Personally, I think the markets feel very expensive. But what do I know?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,518
    iSAGE peeps now seem to be saying case rate growth is slowing maybe because people are not getting tested.

    If I have understood the latest tweets.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,891

    iSAGE peeps now seem to be saying case rate growth is slowing maybe because people are not getting tested.

    If I have understood the latest tweets.

    Testing has been trending up for weeks.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    iSAGE peeps now seem to be saying case rate growth is slowing maybe because people are not getting tested.

    If I have understood the latest tweets.

    They are just people like the rest of us screaming into the Twitter void. Michie and Reicher are on proper SAGE admittedly but that body is so big that they don’t make a huge amount of difference.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,509
    edited July 2021
    Contrarian and friends will be pleased to hear that opponents of Covid passports and related measures have gathered 60,000 signatures in Switzerland to force a referendum on these measures. An earlier attempt to block lockdown altogether also reached a referendum, but was voted down by the population last month by 60-40 on a 60% turnout.

    The organisers claim that Covid passports will create a two-class society and contact tracing may be used as instruments of social control.

    I don't fancy their chances - the Swiss are sturdy freedom-lovers, but also quite pragmatic - but it'll be interesting anyway.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    DavidL said:

    I see Sturgeons made a big, bold move to delay ending COVID restrictions.

    By 3 weeks.

    God's sake. And has she estimated how many businesses will fail as a result?
    Why would she care about that? They probably all vote Tory anyway
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    In a study involving 10.2 million participants in Chile, the effectiveness of an inactivated, China-developed #SARSCoV2 vaccine [SinoVac] was estimated. Effectiveness was 65.9% for infection, 87.5% for hospitalization, 90.3% for ICU admission, and 86.3% for death.

    https://twitter.com/NEJM/status/1412882866971635713
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,637
    kamski said:

    MaxPB said:

    DougSeal said:

    HT @BNODesk

    NEW: Netherlands reports 5,475 new coronavirus cases, an increase of 548% from last week

    You can delay Delta, and Johnson could have done, but it’s coming to a venue near you soon whatever you do.

    Yeah which is why most countries have to take the same risk we have with taking away restrictions. An exit wave is inevitable with delta, better to have it now when respiratory viruses have less of an advantage in the summer than later in the year when they have a huge one.
    Balanced against waiting til more people are vaccinated. And the feeling that once restrictions are gone people aren't going to put up with them coming back.

    So far, taking it on the chin now to try and manage some potential future wave has always proven to be a mistake I think, so I can understand why some people are reluctant to get rid of all restrictions.

    And it's a bit worrying to have very high case numbers where most people are vaccinated, because that might create some pressure for a properly vaccine resistant variant to turn up. Maybe there's good reasons why that won't happen. But so far, from my naive point of view, the variants have surprised us on the downside.
    I think that's makes sense if there's a lot of people still to vaccinate. It's definitely not the case here and I don't think it is in the majority of Europe either. Most western nations are going to hit the demand wall in the next 3-4 weeks, assuming they haven't already.

    Vaccination also doesn't stop after restrictions are removed, they keep going and after July 19th the UK will still need to do another 8-10m doses of Pfizer and Moderna for seconds in the under 40s.

    The downside risk of not going for it is that you reach late August and the inevitable exit wave coincides with reopening of schools, autumn (in Northern Europe) and suddenly reopening looks like it will overwhelm healthcare systems. Though the provision in Europe is undoubtedly better than here so I don't know how much of a worry it is and you don't have the cult of "Our NHS" where suddenly the people serve the healthcare service instead of the other way around.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,269
    Cookie said:

    Covid summary.

    Cases, hospitalisation and deaths up... but

    image

    Universities finishing?
    I predicted faster growth again when people said it was showing down a couple of weeks ago, but this time I think the slowing may endure (at least till 26th or so), despite football.

    Very interesting to see the vaccination rates set against infection rates now. Low vaccination rates and high infection rates seem to be converging considerably on the centres of all sizeable towns and university locales, plus the Scotland Vs England vaccination and infection disparity. You can point to both younger and poorer demographics in this.

    It wasn't so much the case when everything was concentrated on the NW a mere couple of weeks ago, but at this stage I am starting to correlate infection rates and vaccination rates very directly as the main thing going on, rather than the many other things you could bring to the table when considering urban areas. Students going back to their homes will even out herd immunity levels between neighbourhoods and reduce the intensity of student mixing.

    The last vaccination pushes need to focus very, very locally on neighbourhoods surrounding the centres of large towns and cities up and down the country. By all means say we should open up, they've had the chance, but one more push on vaccination - one more chance - won't go amiss.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,854
    New trade deals

    BBC News - Brexit: UK announces trade deal with Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57347874
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,068

    Caitlin Moran
    @caitlinmoran
    ·
    17h
    Cab ride across London during extra time - pubs exploding, horns sounding. For an England team who took the knee, wear rainbow armbands, campaign against child poverty. It feels like a cultural game-changer on the same scale as The Beatles.



    Hmmm. Colour me sceptical.

    Yeah, its not like the hard right are able to pick another England team to represent them.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,363
    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    Completely off topic but the markets are taking a shellacking today. Remember inflation? Not so much of a concern apparently, now the concern is about growth. US weekly claims also not great.

    The market is still up 15% in the first six months of this year - I think it'll survive a 1% down day.

    Personally, I think the markets feel very expensive. But what do I know?
    15% up is quite a lot given the level of uncertainty.
    There is a lot we don't know about the bounce back from this.
    Even if plenty claim to.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,660

    New trade deals

    BBC News - Brexit: UK announces trade deal with Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57347874

    Not great for UK fishing industry, by the look of it. The Norwegians catch the stuff and import it.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,132
    edited July 2021
    .

    Agree with this. I think the next election is going to feature some very interesting results in prosperous areas of the South. Most of the Tories I know through work are now ex Tories. Things like the "citizens of nowhere" speech went down like a bucket of cold sick on the trading floor. But the media are still engaged in their anthropological expeditions to Leaveland.

    Confirmation bias. Given how raw your politics are Tories that disagree with you simply won't talk to you.
    I talk to everyone at work. I think it's probably more down to the kind of Tories I meet. I don't encounter Tories outside of work, because they don't really live in my neighbourhood or have kids at local schools and I didn't make friends with any at university and I grew up in Scotland where Tories are a protected species. Tories in my field of work, which is the only place I encounter them apart from on here, tend towards the free maket/pro EU/socially liberal wing so mostly hate the current incarnation of the party.
    I've never had my political views described as raw before, I'll take that, it's better than half baked or overcooked I suppose!
    I missed this earlier. I've worked with people just like you who have prejudiced views to those not on their side of the political spectrum, and are unable to see the other's point of view - preferring to stereotype and hurl insults instead.

    In all cases, I was professional and polite with them but avoided talking politics with them and close relationships with them more generally. I think the rest of your post bares this out.

    Everyone will have detected this about you and those who agree with you on some issues (like Brexit and Boris) will share it with you to build some sort of rapport, and those who don't will avoid you or keep their mouth shut.
    I genuinely don't recognise myself in your description. For one thing, I think you are confusing how people communicate in online forums devoted to vigorous political debate, shorn of the subtleties of in-person human interaction, and how they interact in real life. I think there's a fair amount of projection going on, too, since you are probably one of the most abrasive and thin-skinned people on this site. I recall, for instance, the time you abused my parents and my dead grandparents, solely on the basis of their political views, and ignored completely my request for an apology. Prejudiced, hurling insults, yes; polite and professional, no.
    I have enjoyed friendships with people across the political spectrum, who knows perhaps IRL we could find common ground, if you could drop the permanent outrage act for just a second.
    Lol. A masterclass in lack of self-awareness.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,637
    rcs1000 said:

    eek said:

    https://twitter.com/TechnicallyRon/status/1412736076339466243

    2019: "If young people didn't spend all their money on fancy coffees they would be able to afford a house"

    2021: "If young people don't go back to offices and buy fancy coffees then the economy is going to implode"

    Pretty sure fancy coffees shouldn't have such power tbh

    Maybe, if young people spend all their money on a house instead of coffee, then the economy implodes?
    If young people spend their money on a house, then they'll be allowing someone who already made out like a bandito in the housing market to make an even bigger profit.

    Yay!
    It really depends, our house was sold to us at a loss compared to the seller's buying price. Quite a substantial one too, that's not taking into account that they also ploughed a lot of money into it as well. I think they will have taken a £200-250k loss overall.

    It's why we pounced on it when we saw it become available. If they'd waited I think in today's market they might have reduced their losses a fair bit.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,136
    Floater said:
    Well she wasn't 100% honest but the company was equally stupid - the hours could have been made up easily and who wouldn't have taken up the option of going to that match.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Interestingly, Ireland has decided to reopen indoor hospitality only to those fully vaccinated.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,637

    In a study involving 10.2 million participants in Chile, the effectiveness of an inactivated, China-developed #SARSCoV2 vaccine [SinoVac] was estimated. Effectiveness was 65.9% for infection, 87.5% for hospitalization, 90.3% for ICU admission, and 86.3% for death.

    https://twitter.com/NEJM/status/1412882866971635713

    That's not brilliant but ok. Enough that they would probably want a third dose only a few weeks after the second.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,729

    .

    Agree with this. I think the next election is going to feature some very interesting results in prosperous areas of the South. Most of the Tories I know through work are now ex Tories. Things like the "citizens of nowhere" speech went down like a bucket of cold sick on the trading floor. But the media are still engaged in their anthropological expeditions to Leaveland.

    Confirmation bias. Given how raw your politics are Tories that disagree with you simply won't talk to you.
    I talk to everyone at work. I think it's probably more down to the kind of Tories I meet. I don't encounter Tories outside of work, because they don't really live in my neighbourhood or have kids at local schools and I didn't make friends with any at university and I grew up in Scotland where Tories are a protected species. Tories in my field of work, which is the only place I encounter them apart from on here, tend towards the free maket/pro EU/socially liberal wing so mostly hate the current incarnation of the party.
    I've never had my political views described as raw before, I'll take that, it's better than half baked or overcooked I suppose!
    I missed this earlier. I've worked with people just like you who have prejudiced views to those not on their side of the political spectrum, and are unable to see the other's point of view - preferring to stereotype and hurl insults instead.

    In all cases, I was professional and polite with them but avoided talking politics with them and close relationships with them more generally. I think the rest of your post bares this out.

    Everyone will have detected this about you and those who agree with you on some issues (like Brexit and Boris) will share it with you to build some sort of rapport, and those who don't will avoid you or keep their mouth shut.
    I genuinely don't recognise myself in your description. For one thing, I think you are confusing how people communicate in online forums devoted to vigorous political debate, shorn of the subtleties of in-person human interaction, and how they interact in real life. I think there's a fair amount of projection going on, too, since you are probably one of the most abrasive and thin-skinned people on this site. I recall, for instance, the time you abused my parents and my dead grandparents, solely on the basis of their political views, and ignored completely my request for an apology. Prejudiced, hurling insults, yes; polite and professional, no.
    I have enjoyed friendships with people across the political spectrum, who knows perhaps IRL we could find common ground, if you could drop the permanent outrage act for just a second.
    Lol. A masterclass in lack of self-awareness.
    Still no apology then.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,132
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Agree with this. I think the next election is going to feature some very interesting results in prosperous areas of the South. Most of the Tories I know through work are now ex Tories. Things like the "citizens of nowhere" speech went down like a bucket of cold sick on the trading floor. But the media are still engaged in their anthropological expeditions to Leaveland.

    Confirmation bias. Given how raw your politics are Tories that disagree with you simply won't talk to you.
    I talk to everyone at work. I think it's probably more down to the kind of Tories I meet. I don't encounter Tories outside of work, because they don't really live in my neighbourhood or have kids at local schools and I didn't make friends with any at university and I grew up in Scotland where Tories are a protected species. Tories in my field of work, which is the only place I encounter them apart from on here, tend towards the free maket/pro EU/socially liberal wing so mostly hate the current incarnation of the party.
    I've never had my political views described as raw before, I'll take that, it's better than half baked or overcooked I suppose!
    Raw is great and I'm a bit put out. He calls me "bonkers".
    Because you are bonkers, genuinely thinking Corbynism is a constructive political creed, and you call those who disagree with you, including me, "reactionary", which you fail to recognise is insulting.

    So, you're bonkers. Not bad on the betting mind.
    Reactionary isn't an insult. Reactionary Reductive is my term of denigration albeit often used in almost affectionate way. And you, as I've made clear before, are NOT one of those.

    How to distinguish an RR from a vanilla R? An RR will respond to (say) me arguing for (say) higher taxes with the following:

    "Why don't you just write a cheque yourself to HMRC for the extra amount you think you should pay? But you won't do that, will you? So you're a typical leftist hypocrite."

    This sort of thing.
    Until you can recognise reactionary is an insult and change your behaviour accordingly you and I are not going to have a productive relationship on this site, and I simply won't engage with you other than on betting tips.

    Hope that's very clear.
  • jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,270
    Good to see the support for Masks still high on public transport. However many polled probably don't go on it and more the case of 'they think they should be worn' when in reality it doesn't impact/affect them.

    I expect whilst I am there with my mask on I will see the level of support drop off fairly quickly and see more and more people choosing not to. At least I will continue to do my bit for others.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,114
    edited July 2021

    Interestingly, Ireland has decided to reopen indoor hospitality only to those fully vaccinated.

    I'm so relieved that our government listened to the freedom loving amongst us, and not the I'm alright jack brigade.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,891
    MaxPB said:

    In a study involving 10.2 million participants in Chile, the effectiveness of an inactivated, China-developed #SARSCoV2 vaccine [SinoVac] was estimated. Effectiveness was 65.9% for infection, 87.5% for hospitalization, 90.3% for ICU admission, and 86.3% for death.

    https://twitter.com/NEJM/status/1412882866971635713

    That's not brilliant but ok. Enough that they would probably want a third dose only a few weeks after the second.
    There's talk of giving those injected with Sinovac a Pfizer top-up.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,132

    Caitlin Moran
    @caitlinmoran
    ·
    17h
    Cab ride across London during extra time - pubs exploding, horns sounding. For an England team who took the knee, wear rainbow armbands, campaign against child poverty. It feels like a cultural game-changer on the same scale as The Beatles.



    Hmmm. Colour me sceptical.

    And there are those who want to make it about Brexit Britain on the other side too.

    It's about the football.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    MaxPB said:

    In a study involving 10.2 million participants in Chile, the effectiveness of an inactivated, China-developed #SARSCoV2 vaccine [SinoVac] was estimated. Effectiveness was 65.9% for infection, 87.5% for hospitalization, 90.3% for ICU admission, and 86.3% for death.

    https://twitter.com/NEJM/status/1412882866971635713

    That's not brilliant but ok. Enough that they would probably want a third dose only a few weeks after the second.
    Yes, it's not great compared with the best of the other Covid vaccines, but it's very respectable compared with vaccines generally, and certainly a hell of a lot better than nothing.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,854
    Carnyx said:

    New trade deals

    BBC News - Brexit: UK announces trade deal with Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57347874

    Not great for UK fishing industry, by the look of it. The Norwegians catch the stuff and import it.
    I notice Scottish shellfish fishermen have opened new markets in the Far East
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,132
    I'm starting to see that EiT had a point about the British hating freedom.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,660

    Carnyx said:

    New trade deals

    BBC News - Brexit: UK announces trade deal with Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57347874

    Not great for UK fishing industry, by the look of it. The Norwegians catch the stuff and import it.
    I notice Scottish shellfish fishermen have opened new markets in the Far East
    But frozen, and not the high value fresh seafood market in Europe.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Mortimer said:

    Interestingly, Ireland has decided to reopen indoor hospitality only to those fully vaccinated.

    I'm so relieved that our government listened to the freedom loving amongst us, and not the I'm alright jack brigade.
    It didn't, it kept us locked down more than necessary, with considerable avoidable economic damage, because it wasn't prepared to take account of the facts regarding vaccine protection. Today's announcements suggest they are finally getting there, but it's taken too long.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,854
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    New trade deals

    BBC News - Brexit: UK announces trade deal with Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57347874

    Not great for UK fishing industry, by the look of it. The Norwegians catch the stuff and import it.
    I notice Scottish shellfish fishermen have opened new markets in the Far East
    But frozen, and not the high value fresh seafood market in Europe.
    Always a negative to be found
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,363
    jonny83 said:

    Good to see the support for Masks still high on public transport. However many polled probably don't go on it and more the case of 'they think they should be worn' when in reality it doesn't impact/affect them.

    I expect whilst I am there with my mask on I will see the level of support drop off fairly quickly and see more and more people choosing not to. At least I will continue to do my bit for others.
    On train and Metro today. No sign of masks wearing declining.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,518
    MaxPB said:

    In a study involving 10.2 million participants in Chile, the effectiveness of an inactivated, China-developed #SARSCoV2 vaccine [SinoVac] was estimated. Effectiveness was 65.9% for infection, 87.5% for hospitalization, 90.3% for ICU admission, and 86.3% for death.

    https://twitter.com/NEJM/status/1412882866971635713

    That's not brilliant but ok. Enough that they would probably want a third dose only a few weeks after the second.
    Oxford inventor of AZ said anything over 50% would be good and useful. iirc flu jab is around 50% effective?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,891
    dixiedean said:

    jonny83 said:

    Good to see the support for Masks still high on public transport. However many polled probably don't go on it and more the case of 'they think they should be worn' when in reality it doesn't impact/affect them.

    I expect whilst I am there with my mask on I will see the level of support drop off fairly quickly and see more and more people choosing not to. At least I will continue to do my bit for others.
    On train and Metro today. No sign of masks wearing declining.
    Isn't it ending on the 19th, or has the requirement already been dropped?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,114

    Mortimer said:

    Interestingly, Ireland has decided to reopen indoor hospitality only to those fully vaccinated.

    I'm so relieved that our government listened to the freedom loving amongst us, and not the I'm alright jack brigade.
    It didn't, it kept us locked down more than necessary, with considerable avoidable economic damage, because it wasn't prepared to take account of the facts regarding vaccine protection. Today's announcements suggest they are finally getting there, but it's taken too long.
    You misunderstand me. We haven't created a two-tier society. That is vitally important for those of us who cherish freedom.

  • eekeek Posts: 28,136

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    New trade deals

    BBC News - Brexit: UK announces trade deal with Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57347874

    Not great for UK fishing industry, by the look of it. The Norwegians catch the stuff and import it.
    I notice Scottish shellfish fishermen have opened new markets in the Far East
    But frozen, and not the high value fresh seafood market in Europe.
    Always a negative to be found
    It's a pretty big negative when frozen seafood is worth a quarter of fresh seafood.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,132

    .

    Agree with this. I think the next election is going to feature some very interesting results in prosperous areas of the South. Most of the Tories I know through work are now ex Tories. Things like the "citizens of nowhere" speech went down like a bucket of cold sick on the trading floor. But the media are still engaged in their anthropological expeditions to Leaveland.

    Confirmation bias. Given how raw your politics are Tories that disagree with you simply won't talk to you.
    I talk to everyone at work. I think it's probably more down to the kind of Tories I meet. I don't encounter Tories outside of work, because they don't really live in my neighbourhood or have kids at local schools and I didn't make friends with any at university and I grew up in Scotland where Tories are a protected species. Tories in my field of work, which is the only place I encounter them apart from on here, tend towards the free maket/pro EU/socially liberal wing so mostly hate the current incarnation of the party.
    I've never had my political views described as raw before, I'll take that, it's better than half baked or overcooked I suppose!
    I missed this earlier. I've worked with people just like you who have prejudiced views to those not on their side of the political spectrum, and are unable to see the other's point of view - preferring to stereotype and hurl insults instead.

    In all cases, I was professional and polite with them but avoided talking politics with them and close relationships with them more generally. I think the rest of your post bares this out.

    Everyone will have detected this about you and those who agree with you on some issues (like Brexit and Boris) will share it with you to build some sort of rapport, and those who don't will avoid you or keep their mouth shut.
    I genuinely don't recognise myself in your description. For one thing, I think you are confusing how people communicate in online forums devoted to vigorous political debate, shorn of the subtleties of in-person human interaction, and how they interact in real life. I think there's a fair amount of projection going on, too, since you are probably one of the most abrasive and thin-skinned people on this site. I recall, for instance, the time you abused my parents and my dead grandparents, solely on the basis of their political views, and ignored completely my request for an apology. Prejudiced, hurling insults, yes; polite and professional, no.
    I have enjoyed friendships with people across the political spectrum, who knows perhaps IRL we could find common ground, if you could drop the permanent outrage act for just a second.
    Lol. A masterclass in lack of self-awareness.
    Still no apology then.
    You project exactly what you're like onto me. You seem entirely unaware of the irony of this.

    I'm happy to engage with posters who disagree with me in productive discussions that lead somewhere. For that to take place they need to have the intelligence and self-awareness to meaningfully reflect on what is said. There are many posters on the liberal-Left I enjoy debating with on this forum, including Jonathan, Gallowgate, Gardenwalker, Oldkingcole, SouthamObs, Doug Seal, Sandy.

    You are not one of them. To be fair, there are others too, like OllyT and Mango, but the same applies to them too.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,745

    MaxPB said:

    In a study involving 10.2 million participants in Chile, the effectiveness of an inactivated, China-developed #SARSCoV2 vaccine [SinoVac] was estimated. Effectiveness was 65.9% for infection, 87.5% for hospitalization, 90.3% for ICU admission, and 86.3% for death.

    https://twitter.com/NEJM/status/1412882866971635713

    That's not brilliant but ok. Enough that they would probably want a third dose only a few weeks after the second.
    Oxford inventor of AZ said anything over 50% would be good and useful. iirc flu jab is around 50% effective?
    Yes - but given there are other vaccines out there with much higher numbers....
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,660
    Ah, Mr Gove's explanation for scrapping EVEL:

    "having reflected on the procedure, the government believes it has not served our parliament well and that removing it would simplify the legislative process.

    It’s a fundamental principle that all constituent parts of the United Kingdom should be equally represented in parliament."

    As per Graun feed, which explains "The move is part of an attempt to minimise opposition to the union in Scotland. Cameron’s surprise post-referendum announcement infuriated many Scots because it implied that their MPs would no longer be full members of parliament, and some argued that they had been asked to vote to remain in the UK in a false premise."
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Interestingly, Ireland has decided to reopen indoor hospitality only to those fully vaccinated.

    I'm so relieved that our government listened to the freedom loving amongst us, and not the I'm alright jack brigade.
    It didn't, it kept us locked down more than necessary, with considerable avoidable economic damage, because it wasn't prepared to take account of the facts regarding vaccine protection. Today's announcements suggest they are finally getting there, but it's taken too long.
    You misunderstand me. We haven't created a two-tier society. That is vitally important for those of us who cherish freedom.

    I'm not quite sure how arbitrarily denying people freedoms for no objective reason and to the detriment of (largely younger) people employed in hospitality, music, theatre and other sectors can be seen as cherishing freedom, but I'll take your word for it.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    jonny83 said:

    Good to see the support for Masks still high on public transport. However many polled probably don't go on it and more the case of 'they think they should be worn' when in reality it doesn't impact/affect them.

    I expect whilst I am there with my mask on I will see the level of support drop off fairly quickly and see more and more people choosing not to. At least I will continue to do my bit for others.
    Masks in shops and on public transport etc are potentially different from other controls because a) you are protecting others by wearing them and b) as consumers of essential services those others may not have the choice of whether to be in your presence and be infected by you.

    The rest is very determined by perceived risk. If the risk is perceived to be high many people will refuse to do those activities, resulting in commercial loss. And vice versa.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,363
    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    jonny83 said:

    Good to see the support for Masks still high on public transport. However many polled probably don't go on it and more the case of 'they think they should be worn' when in reality it doesn't impact/affect them.

    I expect whilst I am there with my mask on I will see the level of support drop off fairly quickly and see more and more people choosing not to. At least I will continue to do my bit for others.
    On train and Metro today. No sign of masks wearing declining.
    Isn't it ending on the 19th, or has the requirement already been dropped?
    Yes of course. I was rather surprised that the announcement of the dropping hadn't led to an increase in non-compliance though.
    From a small sample.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,745

    I'm starting to see that EiT had a point about the British hating freedom.
    If you are elderly, COVID had, at one point, a CFR (Case Fatality Rate) that rivalled some of the more funky plagues in history. 30-40%

    If you were facing those numbers, you'd be shit scared. And rightly so.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,162

    MaxPB said:

    In a study involving 10.2 million participants in Chile, the effectiveness of an inactivated, China-developed #SARSCoV2 vaccine [SinoVac] was estimated. Effectiveness was 65.9% for infection, 87.5% for hospitalization, 90.3% for ICU admission, and 86.3% for death.

    https://twitter.com/NEJM/status/1412882866971635713

    That's not brilliant but ok. Enough that they would probably want a third dose only a few weeks after the second.
    Oxford inventor of AZ said anything over 50% would be good and useful. iirc flu jab is around 50% effective?
    I think that is right. I think this whole Covid business hit the whole public psyche really hard and there is such a level of desperate need for a magic bullet to make it all go away that some simply cannot grasp that nothing is 100% in this area. Hard as it is, and I feel it as mjuch as anyone, we simply have get on with things now. Immensely hard for those who are unable to be vaccinated. I have little sympathy for those who choose not to be vaccinated.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    New trade deals

    BBC News - Brexit: UK announces trade deal with Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57347874

    Not great for UK fishing industry, by the look of it. The Norwegians catch the stuff and import it.
    I notice Scottish shellfish fishermen have opened new markets in the Far East
    But frozen, and not the high value fresh seafood market in Europe.
    Always a negative to be found
    A pretty big one. Your proxy expertise on the Scotch fishing industry seems to have deserted you.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,640
    Sky Sports News
    @SkySportsNews
    Huddersfield forward Kenny Edwards has been banned for 10 matches for putting his finger up the bottom of an opponent.

    Mrs BJ received a similar ban for an identical offence
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208

    MaxPB said:

    In a study involving 10.2 million participants in Chile, the effectiveness of an inactivated, China-developed #SARSCoV2 vaccine [SinoVac] was estimated. Effectiveness was 65.9% for infection, 87.5% for hospitalization, 90.3% for ICU admission, and 86.3% for death.

    https://twitter.com/NEJM/status/1412882866971635713

    That's not brilliant but ok. Enough that they would probably want a third dose only a few weeks after the second.
    Yes, it's not great compared with the best of the other Covid vaccines, but it's very respectable compared with vaccines generally, and certainly a hell of a lot better than nothing.
    Problem is that only China and the EU are exporting vaccines in quantity and even so demand restricted.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,027
    NEW: @ipsosmori polling for The Economist shows some Brits support anti-covid restrictions *permanently*, regardless of covid risk. Inc:

    - 19% for nighttime curfews
    - 26% for closing casinos and clubs
    - 35% for travel quarantine
    - 40% for masks

    Amazing to think some people really do want these restrictions permanently
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,168

    Mortimer said:

    Interestingly, Ireland has decided to reopen indoor hospitality only to those fully vaccinated.

    I'm so relieved that our government listened to the freedom loving amongst us, and not the I'm alright jack brigade.
    It didn't, it kept us locked down more than necessary, with considerable avoidable economic damage, because it wasn't prepared to take account of the facts regarding vaccine protection. Today's announcements suggest they are finally getting there, but it's taken too long.
    I think it's probably OK, or even a good idea, to allow things like inside dining to the fully vaccinated, if having a current negative test also gets you in. And people can get a free test. And at some point soon, if Covid is still a problem, if you've chosen not to be vaccinated, you have to pay for the test yourself. Something like that.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,637

    MaxPB said:

    In a study involving 10.2 million participants in Chile, the effectiveness of an inactivated, China-developed #SARSCoV2 vaccine [SinoVac] was estimated. Effectiveness was 65.9% for infection, 87.5% for hospitalization, 90.3% for ICU admission, and 86.3% for death.

    https://twitter.com/NEJM/status/1412882866971635713

    That's not brilliant but ok. Enough that they would probably want a third dose only a few weeks after the second.
    Oxford inventor of AZ said anything over 50% would be good and useful. iirc flu jab is around 50% effective?
    Yeah but those numbers for AZ are about 85% against infection, 96% against hospitalisation and close to 100% against death with two doses at a minimum 8 week gap.

    For something as virulent as COVID the old bar of 50% is probably far too low. We actually need vaccines to be up over 95% against infection. Hopefully booster doses will get us there.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,007

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Agree with this. I think the next election is going to feature some very interesting results in prosperous areas of the South. Most of the Tories I know through work are now ex Tories. Things like the "citizens of nowhere" speech went down like a bucket of cold sick on the trading floor. But the media are still engaged in their anthropological expeditions to Leaveland.

    Confirmation bias. Given how raw your politics are Tories that disagree with you simply won't talk to you.
    I talk to everyone at work. I think it's probably more down to the kind of Tories I meet. I don't encounter Tories outside of work, because they don't really live in my neighbourhood or have kids at local schools and I didn't make friends with any at university and I grew up in Scotland where Tories are a protected species. Tories in my field of work, which is the only place I encounter them apart from on here, tend towards the free maket/pro EU/socially liberal wing so mostly hate the current incarnation of the party.
    I've never had my political views described as raw before, I'll take that, it's better than half baked or overcooked I suppose!
    Raw is great and I'm a bit put out. He calls me "bonkers".
    Because you are bonkers, genuinely thinking Corbynism is a constructive political creed, and you call those who disagree with you, including me, "reactionary", which you fail to recognise is insulting.

    So, you're bonkers. Not bad on the betting mind.
    Reactionary isn't an insult. Reactionary Reductive is my term of denigration albeit often used in almost affectionate way. And you, as I've made clear before, are NOT one of those.

    How to distinguish an RR from a vanilla R? An RR will respond to (say) me arguing for (say) higher taxes with the following:

    "Why don't you just write a cheque yourself to HMRC for the extra amount you think you should pay? But you won't do that, will you? So you're a typical leftist hypocrite."

    This sort of thing.
    Until you can recognise reactionary is an insult and change your behaviour accordingly you and I are not going to have a productive relationship on this site, and I simply won't engage with you other than on betting tips.

    Hope that's very clear.
    Well I haven't called you a reactionary for ages.

    As a general point, I think the nouns are best avoided unless you're really going for it and have good reason to do so.

    For example, X is a racist - this is very strong because it implies that X's racism is so pungent that it defines him. It's what he is.

    Cf, X has some views which are racist, or (milder) X is not wholly free of racism. These formulations are imo better unless you're talking about (or with) a real specimen.

    So, on this one, and I'm being serious and reaching out here, you are not 'a' Reactionary - that's unfair and wrong, and when I say that I'm semi bantering - but you do have some views which are reactionary. Word as per dictionary definition.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,805

    NEW: @ipsosmori polling for The Economist shows some Brits support anti-covid restrictions *permanently*, regardless of covid risk. Inc:

    - 19% for nighttime curfews
    - 26% for closing casinos and clubs
    - 35% for travel quarantine
    - 40% for masks

    Amazing to think some people really do want these restrictions permanently

    Its amazing and very depressing.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,456
    Carnyx said:

    Ah, Mr Gove's explanation for scrapping EVEL:

    "having reflected on the procedure, the government believes it has not served our parliament well and that removing it would simplify the legislative process.

    It’s a fundamental principle that all constituent parts of the United Kingdom should be equally represented in parliament."

    As per Graun feed, which explains "The move is part of an attempt to minimise opposition to the union in Scotland. Cameron’s surprise post-referendum announcement infuriated many Scots because it implied that their MPs would no longer be full members of parliament, and some argued that they had been asked to vote to remain in the UK in a false premise."

    All very well scrapping EVEL but it means Scottish and Welsh MPs can vote on English domestic legislation without English MPs having any right to vote on Scottish and Welsh domestic legislation.

    If the next election produces a hung parliament with Starmer becoming PM with Welsh Labour and SNP MPs support that would become a significant problem without an English Parliament, especially with a Tory majority in England
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,705
    edited July 2021
    The government have got it wrong on masks on public transports, specifically the short term.

    But some of the other stuff, we are going to need a public education campaign about risk....
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,518
    Shaun Lintern
    @ShaunLintern
    ·
    54m
    Exclusive: Patients face 15-hour wait in hospital A&E as summer crisis grips NHS.
    @KatherineRCEM
    warns NHS faces worse situation than any previous winter:


    WTF is going on? What are all these people going to A&E with?
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,284
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Agree with this. I think the next election is going to feature some very interesting results in prosperous areas of the South. Most of the Tories I know through work are now ex Tories. Things like the "citizens of nowhere" speech went down like a bucket of cold sick on the trading floor. But the media are still engaged in their anthropological expeditions to Leaveland.

    Confirmation bias. Given how raw your politics are Tories that disagree with you simply won't talk to you.
    I talk to everyone at work. I think it's probably more down to the kind of Tories I meet. I don't encounter Tories outside of work, because they don't really live in my neighbourhood or have kids at local schools and I didn't make friends with any at university and I grew up in Scotland where Tories are a protected species. Tories in my field of work, which is the only place I encounter them apart from on here, tend towards the free maket/pro EU/socially liberal wing so mostly hate the current incarnation of the party.
    I've never had my political views described as raw before, I'll take that, it's better than half baked or overcooked I suppose!
    Raw is great and I'm a bit put out. He calls me "bonkers".
    Because you are bonkers, genuinely thinking Corbynism is a constructive political creed, and you call those who disagree with you, including me, "reactionary", which you fail to recognise is insulting.

    So, you're bonkers. Not bad on the betting mind.
    Reactionary isn't an insult. Reactionary Reductive is my term of denigration albeit often used in almost affectionate way. And you, as I've made clear before, are NOT one of those.

    How to distinguish an RR from a vanilla R? An RR will respond to (say) me arguing for (say) higher taxes with the following:

    "Why don't you just write a cheque yourself to HMRC for the extra amount you think you should pay? But you won't do that, will you? So you're a typical leftist hypocrite."

    This sort of thing.
    I'm not sure you get to define what other people find offensive.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,114
    edited July 2021
    kamski said:

    Mortimer said:

    Interestingly, Ireland has decided to reopen indoor hospitality only to those fully vaccinated.

    I'm so relieved that our government listened to the freedom loving amongst us, and not the I'm alright jack brigade.
    It didn't, it kept us locked down more than necessary, with considerable avoidable economic damage, because it wasn't prepared to take account of the facts regarding vaccine protection. Today's announcements suggest they are finally getting there, but it's taken too long.
    I think it's probably OK, or even a good idea, to allow things like inside dining to the fully vaccinated, if having a current negative test also gets you in. And people can get a free test. And at some point soon, if Covid is still a problem, if you've chosen not to be vaccinated, you have to pay for the test yourself. Something like that.
    Some of us don't want a 'papers please' society. Luckily there are enough people who cherish freedom to shout down the 'I'm alright Jack' brigade
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,662
    eek said:

    Floater said:
    Well she wasn't 100% honest but the company was equally stupid - the hours could have been made up easily and who wouldn't have taken up the option of going to that match.
    Wasn't that the plot of a television advert back in the day?
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,321
    Cookie said:

    Caitlin Moran
    @caitlinmoran
    ·
    17h
    Cab ride across London during extra time - pubs exploding, horns sounding. For an England team who took the knee, wear rainbow armbands, campaign against child poverty. It feels like a cultural game-changer on the same scale as The Beatles.



    Hmmm. Colour me sceptical.

    Jesus FUCKING Christ Lefties. Give it a fucking rest. Can we have something, anything which isn't about your fucking culture war all the fucking time.

    There is so little you can do nowadays which doesn't involve getting shouted at by a fucking leftie with an agenda.

    Quite right, there's nothing worse than being shouted at. Oh, hang on......
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,456
    Government considering allowing ministers who are not MPs or Lords

    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1413171132455346182?s=20
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,314

    NEW: @ipsosmori polling for The Economist shows some Brits support anti-covid restrictions *permanently*, regardless of covid risk. Inc:

    - 19% for nighttime curfews
    - 26% for closing casinos and clubs
    - 35% for travel quarantine
    - 40% for masks

    Amazing to think some people really do want these restrictions permanently

    Its amazing and very depressing.
    It's a classic case of people not being able to look out of their own narrow perspective. I don't go out much at night, so a curfew won't effect me, but might make me safe. I don't go to casino/clubs, so it doesn't matter if they're closed. I don't go abroad for holidays (and am jealous of those who do), so they can just f off. I don't go out much, and masks are fine, aren't they (though hijabs are EVIL).
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,284
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,729

    .

    Agree with this. I think the next election is going to feature some very interesting results in prosperous areas of the South. Most of the Tories I know through work are now ex Tories. Things like the "citizens of nowhere" speech went down like a bucket of cold sick on the trading floor. But the media are still engaged in their anthropological expeditions to Leaveland.

    Confirmation bias. Given how raw your politics are Tories that disagree with you simply won't talk to you.
    I talk to everyone at work. I think it's probably more down to the kind of Tories I meet. I don't encounter Tories outside of work, because they don't really live in my neighbourhood or have kids at local schools and I didn't make friends with any at university and I grew up in Scotland where Tories are a protected species. Tories in my field of work, which is the only place I encounter them apart from on here, tend towards the free maket/pro EU/socially liberal wing so mostly hate the current incarnation of the party.
    I've never had my political views described as raw before, I'll take that, it's better than half baked or overcooked I suppose!
    I missed this earlier. I've worked with people just like you who have prejudiced views to those not on their side of the political spectrum, and are unable to see the other's point of view - preferring to stereotype and hurl insults instead.

    In all cases, I was professional and polite with them but avoided talking politics with them and close relationships with them more generally. I think the rest of your post bares this out.

    Everyone will have detected this about you and those who agree with you on some issues (like Brexit and Boris) will share it with you to build some sort of rapport, and those who don't will avoid you or keep their mouth shut.
    I genuinely don't recognise myself in your description. For one thing, I think you are confusing how people communicate in online forums devoted to vigorous political debate, shorn of the subtleties of in-person human interaction, and how they interact in real life. I think there's a fair amount of projection going on, too, since you are probably one of the most abrasive and thin-skinned people on this site. I recall, for instance, the time you abused my parents and my dead grandparents, solely on the basis of their political views, and ignored completely my request for an apology. Prejudiced, hurling insults, yes; polite and professional, no.
    I have enjoyed friendships with people across the political spectrum, who knows perhaps IRL we could find common ground, if you could drop the permanent outrage act for just a second.
    Lol. A masterclass in lack of self-awareness.
    Still no apology then.
    You project exactly what you're like onto me. You seem entirely unaware of the irony of this.

    I'm happy to engage with posters who disagree with me in productive discussions that lead somewhere. For that to take place they need to have the intelligence and self-awareness to meaningfully reflect on what is said. There are many posters on the liberal-Left I enjoy debating with on this forum, including Jonathan, Gallowgate, Gardenwalker, Oldkingcole, SouthamObs, Doug Seal, Sandy.

    You are not one of them. To be fair, there are others too, like OllyT and Mango, but the same applies to them too.
    I think I have a reasonable degree of intelligence and self awareness, but I suppose if I were stupid and lacking in self-awareness I would think that, too. In my own conception of myself, I am unafraid of expressing my opinion, but am polite and refrain from insulting people or being personal. Perhaps tone is hard to convey online, and there may have been occasions when I have said something in jest that could come across as rude. If you feel like I've insulted you in the past I am genuinely sorry, it really wasn't intended.
    In all honesty, though, I don't think I have ever been as rude to you as you have been to me, on several occasions. I've tried not to take it to heart, but I was upset when you insulted my family.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,705
    edited July 2021

    iSAGE peeps now seem to be saying case rate growth is slowing maybe because people are not getting tested.

    If I have understood the latest tweets.

    Shifting those goal posts again....just need the accompanying Benny Hill music.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,745

    iSAGE peeps now seem to be saying case rate growth is slowing maybe because people are not getting tested.

    If I have understood the latest tweets.

    Shifting those goal posts again....just need the accompanying Benny Hill music.
    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/testing

    Testing is going up.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,402

    The government have got it wrong on masks on public transports, specifically the short term.

    But some of the other stuff, we are going to need a public education campaign about risk....
    A reminder that if we had a North Korean/fascist/Soviet regime in this country about 25% of the population would enthusiastically support it. The price of liberty is eternal vigilance.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,132

    I'm starting to see that EiT had a point about the British hating freedom.
    If you are elderly, COVID had, at one point, a CFR (Case Fatality Rate) that rivalled some of the more funky plagues in history. 30-40%

    If you were facing those numbers, you'd be shit scared. And rightly so.
    Perhaps, but that doesn't justify permanent restrictions - that's just barking.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    Cookie said:

    Caitlin Moran
    @caitlinmoran
    ·
    17h
    Cab ride across London during extra time - pubs exploding, horns sounding. For an England team who took the knee, wear rainbow armbands, campaign against child poverty. It feels like a cultural game-changer on the same scale as The Beatles.



    Hmmm. Colour me sceptical.

    Jesus FUCKING Christ Lefties. Give it a fucking rest. Can we have something, anything which isn't about your fucking culture war all the fucking time.

    There is so little you can do nowadays which doesn't involve getting shouted at by a fucking leftie with an agenda.

    You don't think you are being a little, um, war-like? Why not let them have an opinion, however misplaced you think it is?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    Shaun Lintern
    @ShaunLintern
    ·
    54m
    Exclusive: Patients face 15-hour wait in hospital A&E as summer crisis grips NHS.
    @KatherineRCEM
    warns NHS faces worse situation than any previous winter:


    WTF is going on? What are all these people going to A&E with?

    I think it's more a capacity issue, caused by a combination of multiple things:

    1. Capacity is reduced because of the need for Covid precautions
    2. It's further reduced because a smallish number of Covid patients are arriving and they need to be isolated from everyone else
    3. Meanwhile the NHS app is pinging staff who then have to stay away from work for 10 days
    4. And at the same time the NHS is trying to catch up on the backlog, further straining resources

    And probably:

    5. People can't get to see a GP.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,660
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Ah, Mr Gove's explanation for scrapping EVEL:

    "having reflected on the procedure, the government believes it has not served our parliament well and that removing it would simplify the legislative process.

    It’s a fundamental principle that all constituent parts of the United Kingdom should be equally represented in parliament."

    As per Graun feed, which explains "The move is part of an attempt to minimise opposition to the union in Scotland. Cameron’s surprise post-referendum announcement infuriated many Scots because it implied that their MPs would no longer be full members of parliament, and some argued that they had been asked to vote to remain in the UK in a false premise."

    All very well scrapping EVEL but it means Scottish and Welsh MPs can vote on English domestic legislation without English MPs having any right to vote on Scottish and Welsh domestic legislation.

    If the next election produces a hung parliament with Starmer becoming PM with Welsh Labour and SNP MPs support that would become a significant problem without an English Parliament, especially with a Tory majority in England
    Your party is scrapping it, after setting it up.

    Which means they have a motive.
  • SandraMcSandraMc Posts: 690
    I have just been out to vote on our local Neighbourhood Plan and saw the people from next door but one. Just over two weeks ago they invited us round for drinks in their garden. They have been double vaxxed and so have we. They told me that 2 days after the drinks do they came down with Covid.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,406

    Shaun Lintern
    @ShaunLintern
    ·
    54m
    Exclusive: Patients face 15-hour wait in hospital A&E as summer crisis grips NHS.
    @KatherineRCEM
    warns NHS faces worse situation than any previous winter:


    WTF is going on? What are all these people going to A&E with?

    Football celebration injuries?
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,805
    edited July 2021

    NEW: @ipsosmori polling for The Economist shows some Brits support anti-covid restrictions *permanently*, regardless of covid risk. Inc:

    - 19% for nighttime curfews
    - 26% for closing casinos and clubs
    - 35% for travel quarantine
    - 40% for masks

    Amazing to think some people really do want these restrictions permanently

    Its amazing and very depressing.
    It's a classic case of people not being able to look out of their own narrow perspective. I don't go out much at night, so a curfew won't effect me, but might make me safe. I don't go to casino/clubs, so it doesn't matter if they're closed. I don't go abroad for holidays (and am jealous of those who do), so they can just f off. I don't go out much, and masks are fine, aren't they (though hijabs are EVIL).
    yes its like me saying doughnuts should be banned because I hate them personally and never eat them (on the reasoning that they are bad for you )
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,745

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Agree with this. I think the next election is going to feature some very interesting results in prosperous areas of the South. Most of the Tories I know through work are now ex Tories. Things like the "citizens of nowhere" speech went down like a bucket of cold sick on the trading floor. But the media are still engaged in their anthropological expeditions to Leaveland.

    Confirmation bias. Given how raw your politics are Tories that disagree with you simply won't talk to you.
    I talk to everyone at work. I think it's probably more down to the kind of Tories I meet. I don't encounter Tories outside of work, because they don't really live in my neighbourhood or have kids at local schools and I didn't make friends with any at university and I grew up in Scotland where Tories are a protected species. Tories in my field of work, which is the only place I encounter them apart from on here, tend towards the free maket/pro EU/socially liberal wing so mostly hate the current incarnation of the party.
    I've never had my political views described as raw before, I'll take that, it's better than half baked or overcooked I suppose!
    Raw is great and I'm a bit put out. He calls me "bonkers".
    Because you are bonkers, genuinely thinking Corbynism is a constructive political creed, and you call those who disagree with you, including me, "reactionary", which you fail to recognise is insulting.

    So, you're bonkers. Not bad on the betting mind.
    Reactionary isn't an insult. Reactionary Reductive is my term of denigration albeit often used in almost affectionate way. And you, as I've made clear before, are NOT one of those.

    How to distinguish an RR from a vanilla R? An RR will respond to (say) me arguing for (say) higher taxes with the following:

    "Why don't you just write a cheque yourself to HMRC for the extra amount you think you should pay? But you won't do that, will you? So you're a typical leftist hypocrite."

    This sort of thing.
    I'm not sure you get to define what other people find offensive.
    Yes, *I* get to define what is offensive.

    kinabalu - you are an OFSTED inspector. But without the skills.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,168
    Mortimer said:

    kamski said:

    Mortimer said:

    Interestingly, Ireland has decided to reopen indoor hospitality only to those fully vaccinated.

    I'm so relieved that our government listened to the freedom loving amongst us, and not the I'm alright jack brigade.
    It didn't, it kept us locked down more than necessary, with considerable avoidable economic damage, because it wasn't prepared to take account of the facts regarding vaccine protection. Today's announcements suggest they are finally getting there, but it's taken too long.
    I think it's probably OK, or even a good idea, to allow things like inside dining to the fully vaccinated, if having a current negative test also gets you in. And people can get a free test. And at some point soon, if Covid is still a problem, if you've chosen not to be vaccinated, you have to pay for the test yourself. Something like that.
    Some of us don't want a 'papers please' society. Luckily there are enough people who cherish freedom to shout down the 'I'm alright Jack' brigade
    But you've just lived through a time when it literally wasn't allowed to leave your house without a government approved reason! That seems to me to be several orders of magnitude worse in terms of loss of freedom than saying if want to eat inside a restaurant show a test or a vaccination certificate.

    And who are the "I'm alright Jack brigade"? People who have been vaccinated plus people willing to take a test to reduce the chance that might be passing on a potentially fatal disease? I don't get it.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,745
    Well, everyone in my Seal Clubbing Club.....
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,314

    I'm starting to see that EiT had a point about the British hating freedom.
    If you are elderly, COVID had, at one point, a CFR (Case Fatality Rate) that rivalled some of the more funky plagues in history. 30-40%

    If you were facing those numbers, you'd be shit scared. And rightly so.
    I've just been to see my parents, who are visiting in their caravan (it's my dad's 85th birthday today) They're on a caravanning holiday; are worried about the virus (and are happy with precautions like masks), but also want a normal life. Hence the caravanning holiday.

    They're concerned, but not scared. Both double-jabbed (one Pfizer, one AZ). I think it's a case of not doing anything silly, but wanting to live their lives whilst they can. If they get ill, then so be it - but they're at an age when the reaper is, if not a friend, not exactly a stranger.

    Their view is that they're lucky to still be able to caravan in their eighties. Many of their friends cannot.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,729

    I'm starting to see that EiT had a point about the British hating freedom.
    If you are elderly, COVID had, at one point, a CFR (Case Fatality Rate) that rivalled some of the more funky plagues in history. 30-40%

    If you were facing those numbers, you'd be shit scared. And rightly so.
    Perhaps, but that doesn't justify permanent restrictions - that's just barking.
    I agree with you 100% (Well maybe not 100%, I think masks in confined indoor spaces like public transport is a sensible precaution to retain for the time being).
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Vs clubbing seals? To me ages to see what they were on about.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,705
    edited July 2021

    Caitlin Moran
    @caitlinmoran
    ·
    17h
    Cab ride across London during extra time - pubs exploding, horns sounding. For an England team who took the knee, wear rainbow armbands, campaign against child poverty. It feels like a cultural game-changer on the same scale as The Beatles.



    Hmmm. Colour me sceptical.

    And there are those who want to make it about Brexit Britain on the other side too.

    It's about the football.
    Its like comics that literally make every gag Brexit.....before COVID, you could really start to see audiences going FFS, shut up about sodding Brexit, I came for a night out, not to think about Brexit.

    I told this story before, but I saw Mark Watson a couple of years ago and he came out and said I hope your not expecting to hear a load of Brexit gags, because I'm not doing any. You people come here to get away from the world, have a nice fun evening out, the last thing you want is me banging on about Brexit.....and there was a massive cheer and applause (and where I saw this, its is Remainer central)...this show is about something much more depressing, my divorce.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,132

    .

    Agree with this. I think the next election is going to feature some very interesting results in prosperous areas of the South. Most of the Tories I know through work are now ex Tories. Things like the "citizens of nowhere" speech went down like a bucket of cold sick on the trading floor. But the media are still engaged in their anthropological expeditions to Leaveland.

    Confirmation bias. Given how raw your politics are Tories that disagree with you simply won't talk to you.
    I talk to everyone at work. I think it's probably more down to the kind of Tories I meet. I don't encounter Tories outside of work, because they don't really live in my neighbourhood or have kids at local schools and I didn't make friends with any at university and I grew up in Scotland where Tories are a protected species. Tories in my field of work, which is the only place I encounter them apart from on here, tend towards the free maket/pro EU/socially liberal wing so mostly hate the current incarnation of the party.
    I've never had my political views described as raw before, I'll take that, it's better than half baked or overcooked I suppose!
    I missed this earlier. I've worked with people just like you who have prejudiced views to those not on their side of the political spectrum, and are unable to see the other's point of view - preferring to stereotype and hurl insults instead.

    In all cases, I was professional and polite with them but avoided talking politics with them and close relationships with them more generally. I think the rest of your post bares this out.

    Everyone will have detected this about you and those who agree with you on some issues (like Brexit and Boris) will share it with you to build some sort of rapport, and those who don't will avoid you or keep their mouth shut.
    I genuinely don't recognise myself in your description. For one thing, I think you are confusing how people communicate in online forums devoted to vigorous political debate, shorn of the subtleties of in-person human interaction, and how they interact in real life. I think there's a fair amount of projection going on, too, since you are probably one of the most abrasive and thin-skinned people on this site. I recall, for instance, the time you abused my parents and my dead grandparents, solely on the basis of their political views, and ignored completely my request for an apology. Prejudiced, hurling insults, yes; polite and professional, no.
    I have enjoyed friendships with people across the political spectrum, who knows perhaps IRL we could find common ground, if you could drop the permanent outrage act for just a second.
    Lol. A masterclass in lack of self-awareness.
    Still no apology then.
    You project exactly what you're like onto me. You seem entirely unaware of the irony of this.

    I'm happy to engage with posters who disagree with me in productive discussions that lead somewhere. For that to take place they need to have the intelligence and self-awareness to meaningfully reflect on what is said. There are many posters on the liberal-Left I enjoy debating with on this forum, including Jonathan, Gallowgate, Gardenwalker, Oldkingcole, SouthamObs, Doug Seal, Sandy.

    You are not one of them. To be fair, there are others too, like OllyT and Mango, but the same applies to them too.
    I think I have a reasonable degree of intelligence and self awareness, but I suppose if I were stupid and lacking in self-awareness I would think that, too. In my own conception of myself, I am unafraid of expressing my opinion, but am polite and refrain from insulting people or being personal. Perhaps tone is hard to convey online, and there may have been occasions when I have said something in jest that could come across as rude. If you feel like I've insulted you in the past I am genuinely sorry, it really wasn't intended.
    In all honesty, though, I don't think I have ever been as rude to you as you have been to me, on several occasions. I've tried not to take it to heart, but I was upset when you insulted my family.
    I'm sorry if you felt I'd insulted your family. I simply observed that your political views appeared to run in your family in a sardonic way.

    I don't like the way you throw around Gammon and Boomer and accuse others of prejudice whilst exhibiting some forms yourself, including crass generalisations. When you talk like that I feel you're insulting me and my family. I also get frustrated at how any discussion I have with you rolls back to step one, even if we make progress, the very next day. It makes you tiresome and annoying.

    However, I'm happy to make peace if you are. We all have things to learn.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,745

    Shaun Lintern
    @ShaunLintern
    ·
    54m
    Exclusive: Patients face 15-hour wait in hospital A&E as summer crisis grips NHS.
    @KatherineRCEM
    warns NHS faces worse situation than any previous winter:


    WTF is going on? What are all these people going to A&E with?

    18 months backlog of medical stuff?

    Complete with GPs who are missing in action (once again, my local GP deserves a gong, the one running the next practise over deserves being dropped from Big Ben)
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,849
    Carnyx said:

    Ah, Mr Gove's explanation for scrapping EVEL:

    "having reflected on the procedure, the government believes it has not served our parliament well and that removing it would simplify the legislative process.

    It’s a fundamental principle that all constituent parts of the United Kingdom should be equally represented in parliament."

    As per Graun feed, which explains "The move is part of an attempt to minimise opposition to the union in Scotland. Cameron’s surprise post-referendum announcement infuriated many Scots because it implied that their MPs would no longer be full members of parliament, and some argued that they had been asked to vote to remain in the UK in a false premise."

    If Gove really believes that, he’s high on his own supply.
    The idea that removing the tiny EVEL deckchair from the deck while leaving the giant Brexit one flapping about and smacking folk in the puss makes a tuppence worth of difference is dim. I’m pretty sure I know which of them most folk would consider relates to having been asked to vote to remain in the UK in a false premise.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited July 2021

    NEW: @ipsosmori polling for The Economist shows some Brits support anti-covid restrictions *permanently*, regardless of covid risk. Inc:

    - 19% for nighttime curfews
    - 26% for closing casinos and clubs
    - 35% for travel quarantine
    - 40% for masks

    Amazing to think some people really do want these restrictions permanently

    Stupidly, the tories have done almost nothing so far to impress upon people the downsidesof this lunacy.

    To doctors and 'scientists' crying for forever lockdown - OK if we cut your salary 20% then? because the books don't balance and we can't get any money

    To pensioners doing the same.....OK if we freeze your pension for five years? lockdowns mean we are running out of money...

    Thankfully, furlough is unwinding and they can soon explain to the laid off what restrictions are doing to the jobs market.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208

    Shaun Lintern
    @ShaunLintern
    ·
    54m
    Exclusive: Patients face 15-hour wait in hospital A&E as summer crisis grips NHS.
    @KatherineRCEM
    warns NHS faces worse situation than any previous winter:


    WTF is going on? What are all these people going to A&E with?

    I think it's more a capacity issue, caused by a combination of multiple things:

    1. Capacity is reduced because of the need for Covid precautions
    2. It's further reduced because a smallish number of Covid patients are arriving and they need to be isolated from everyone else
    3. Meanwhile the NHS app is pinging staff who then have to stay away from work for 10 days
    4. And at the same time the NHS is trying to catch up on the backlog, further straining resources

    And probably:

    5. People can't get to see a GP.

    The issue I have is that governments (English and Scottish) don't appear to have any plan. Hospitals have to deal with what gets thrown at them, but it would be good to understand what the issues actually are and have mitigations in place for them. They have given up.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    SandraMc said:

    I have just been out to vote on our local Neighbourhood Plan and saw the people from next door but one. Just over two weeks ago they invited us round for drinks in their garden. They have been double vaxxed and so have we. They told me that 2 days after the drinks do they came down with Covid.

    A lot to take in there. Was it Delta? Was it serious? Wouldn't a lot of people have got on the blower to you a tiny bit sooner? Whereabouts roughly are you?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,662
    HYUFD said:

    Government considering allowing ministers who are not MPs or Lords

    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1413171132455346182?s=20

    This is what Dominic Cummings wanted (are we sure he was sacked, and is not just WFH for Boris?). This is the American system, but without the checks and balances. There are doubtless good arguments for it. Democratic accountability won't be one.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,805

    I'm starting to see that EiT had a point about the British hating freedom.
    If you are elderly, COVID had, at one point, a CFR (Case Fatality Rate) that rivalled some of the more funky plagues in history. 30-40%

    If you were facing those numbers, you'd be shit scared. And rightly so.
    Perhaps, but that doesn't justify permanent restrictions - that's just barking.
    I agree with you 100% (Well maybe not 100%, I think masks in confined indoor spaces like public transport is a sensible precaution to retain for the time being).
    Why what is it achieving ? cases are going up anyway but deaths from covid are at a level where it is not worth the damage anymore
This discussion has been closed.