Caitlin Moran @caitlinmoran · 17h Cab ride across London during extra time - pubs exploding, horns sounding. For an England team who took the knee, wear rainbow armbands, campaign against child poverty. It feels like a cultural game-changer on the same scale as The Beatles.
Hmmm. Colour me sceptical.
Jesus FUCKING Christ Lefties. Give it a fucking rest. Can we have something, anything which isn't about your fucking culture war all the fucking time.
There is so little you can do nowadays which doesn't involve getting shouted at by a fucking leftie with an agenda.
Interestingly, Ireland has decided to reopen indoor hospitality only to those fully vaccinated.
I'm so relieved that our government listened to the freedom loving amongst us, and not the I'm alright jack brigade.
It didn't, it kept us locked down more than necessary, with considerable avoidable economic damage, because it wasn't prepared to take account of the facts regarding vaccine protection. Today's announcements suggest they are finally getting there, but it's taken too long.
I think it's probably OK, or even a good idea, to allow things like inside dining to the fully vaccinated, if having a current negative test also gets you in. And people can get a free test. And at some point soon, if Covid is still a problem, if you've chosen not to be vaccinated, you have to pay for the test yourself. Something like that.
Some of us don't want a 'papers please' society. Luckily there are enough people who cherish freedom to shout down the 'I'm alright Jack' brigade
But you've just lived through a time when it literally wasn't allowed to leave your house without a government approved reason! That seems to me to be several orders of magnitude worse in terms of loss of freedom than saying if want to eat inside a restaurant show a test or a vaccination certificate.
And who are the "I'm alright Jack brigade"? People who have been vaccinated plus people willing to take a test to reduce the chance that might be passing on a potentially fatal disease? I don't get it.
It's about principles. Showing paperwork to get into a domestic establishment is the very definition of bio-security state. Introducing the sort of apparatus that allows social control.
If total restrictions on trade are required, so be it, but restrictions on entry for for something as simple as a coffeehouse? Madness.
I find it baffling that people are willing to go along with it. It's the same argument as 'well innocent people have nothing to fear from ID cards/total surveillance' etc.
Agree with this. I think the next election is going to feature some very interesting results in prosperous areas of the South. Most of the Tories I know through work are now ex Tories. Things like the "citizens of nowhere" speech went down like a bucket of cold sick on the trading floor. But the media are still engaged in their anthropological expeditions to Leaveland.
Confirmation bias. Given how raw your politics are Tories that disagree with you simply won't talk to you.
I talk to everyone at work. I think it's probably more down to the kind of Tories I meet. I don't encounter Tories outside of work, because they don't really live in my neighbourhood or have kids at local schools and I didn't make friends with any at university and I grew up in Scotland where Tories are a protected species. Tories in my field of work, which is the only place I encounter them apart from on here, tend towards the free maket/pro EU/socially liberal wing so mostly hate the current incarnation of the party. I've never had my political views described as raw before, I'll take that, it's better than half baked or overcooked I suppose!
Raw is great and I'm a bit put out. He calls me "bonkers".
Because you are bonkers, genuinely thinking Corbynism is a constructive political creed, and you call those who disagree with you, including me, "reactionary", which you fail to recognise is insulting.
So, you're bonkers. Not bad on the betting mind.
Reactionary isn't an insult. Reactionary Reductive is my term of denigration albeit often used in almost affectionate way. And you, as I've made clear before, are NOT one of those.
How to distinguish an RR from a vanilla R? An RR will respond to (say) me arguing for (say) higher taxes with the following:
"Why don't you just write a cheque yourself to HMRC for the extra amount you think you should pay? But you won't do that, will you? So you're a typical leftist hypocrite."
This sort of thing.
I'm not sure you get to define what other people find offensive.
That's true. Eye of the beholder. I was more giving some context for my lingo. Certainly no wish to bandy around "Reactionary" where it offends (unless merited). It can go the other way too. There was one deeply conservative poster on here - think he's on a break atm - who would take the term as the most enormous compliment. So much so that I had to drop it with him. It just was not doing any damage whatsoever.
"having reflected on the procedure, the government believes it has not served our parliament well and that removing it would simplify the legislative process.
It’s a fundamental principle that all constituent parts of the United Kingdom should be equally represented in parliament."
As per Graun feed, which explains "The move is part of an attempt to minimise opposition to the union in Scotland. Cameron’s surprise post-referendum announcement infuriated many Scots because it implied that their MPs would no longer be full members of parliament, and some argued that they had been asked to vote to remain in the UK in a false premise."
If Gove really believes that, he’s high on his own supply. The idea that removing the tiny EVEL deckchair from the deck while leaving the giant Brexit one flapping about and smacking folk in the puss makes a tuppence worth of difference is dim. I’m pretty sure I know which of them most folk would consider relates to having been asked to vote to remain in the UK in a false premise.
It's a bit odd, too, BTW that everyone blames Mr Blair for asymmetric devolution. But it was the unionists (literally) who began it all with Stormont in 1921. Ever since then (apart from direct rule periods) the UK has never been a simple Westminster parliamentary state.
I have just been out to vote on our local Neighbourhood Plan and saw the people from next door but one. Just over two weeks ago they invited us round for drinks in their garden. They have been double vaxxed and so have we. They told me that 2 days after the drinks do they came down with Covid.
A lot to take in there. Was it Delta? Was it serious? Wouldn't a lot of people have got on the blower to you a tiny bit sooner? Whereabouts roughly are you?
I live on the south coast. I don't know whether it was Delta or not. They said they were quite rough for a few days. I am rather surprised they didn't tell me before as she is a district nurse.
Shaun Lintern @ShaunLintern · 54m Exclusive: Patients face 15-hour wait in hospital A&E as summer crisis grips NHS. @KatherineRCEM warns NHS faces worse situation than any previous winter:
WTF is going on? What are all these people going to A&E with?
I think it's more a capacity issue, caused by a combination of multiple things:
1. Capacity is reduced because of the need for Covid precautions 2. It's further reduced because a smallish number of Covid patients are arriving and they need to be isolated from everyone else 3. Meanwhile the NHS app is pinging staff who then have to stay away from work for 10 days 4. And at the same time the NHS is trying to catch up on the backlog, further straining resources
And probably:
5. People can't get to see a GP.
The issue I have is that governments (English and Scottish) don't appear to have any plan. Hospitals have to deal with what gets thrown at them, but it would be good to understand what the issues actually are and have mitigations in place for them. They have given up.
You think hospitals are just carrying on as normal or something?
I have just been out to vote on our local Neighbourhood Plan and saw the people from next door but one. Just over two weeks ago they invited us round for drinks in their garden. They have been double vaxxed and so have we. They told me that 2 days after the drinks do they came down with Covid.
and presumably still around without serious illness ? this county needs to stop obsessing about covid
Agree with this. I think the next election is going to feature some very interesting results in prosperous areas of the South. Most of the Tories I know through work are now ex Tories. Things like the "citizens of nowhere" speech went down like a bucket of cold sick on the trading floor. But the media are still engaged in their anthropological expeditions to Leaveland.
Confirmation bias. Given how raw your politics are Tories that disagree with you simply won't talk to you.
I talk to everyone at work. I think it's probably more down to the kind of Tories I meet. I don't encounter Tories outside of work, because they don't really live in my neighbourhood or have kids at local schools and I didn't make friends with any at university and I grew up in Scotland where Tories are a protected species. Tories in my field of work, which is the only place I encounter them apart from on here, tend towards the free maket/pro EU/socially liberal wing so mostly hate the current incarnation of the party. I've never had my political views described as raw before, I'll take that, it's better than half baked or overcooked I suppose!
Raw is great and I'm a bit put out. He calls me "bonkers".
Because you are bonkers, genuinely thinking Corbynism is a constructive political creed, and you call those who disagree with you, including me, "reactionary", which you fail to recognise is insulting.
So, you're bonkers. Not bad on the betting mind.
Reactionary isn't an insult. Reactionary Reductive is my term of denigration albeit often used in almost affectionate way. And you, as I've made clear before, are NOT one of those.
How to distinguish an RR from a vanilla R? An RR will respond to (say) me arguing for (say) higher taxes with the following:
"Why don't you just write a cheque yourself to HMRC for the extra amount you think you should pay? But you won't do that, will you? So you're a typical leftist hypocrite."
This sort of thing.
I'm not sure you get to define what other people find offensive.
That's true. Eye of the beholder. I was more giving some context for my lingo. Certainly no wish to bandy around "Reactionary" where it offends (unless merited). It can go the other way too. There was one deeply conservative poster on here - think he's on a break atm - who would take the term as the most enormous compliment. So much so that I had to drop it with him. It just was not doing any damage whatsoever.
It wouldn't bother me: I'm a Physics teacher so I know that every action has an equal and opposite reaction...
Well, you could see why they would feel that was okay. It's not like the Commons or the Lords is doing a good job of holding ministers to account, so you could junk the fiction that it's an important part of the system.
"having reflected on the procedure, the government believes it has not served our parliament well and that removing it would simplify the legislative process.
It’s a fundamental principle that all constituent parts of the United Kingdom should be equally represented in parliament."
As per Graun feed, which explains "The move is part of an attempt to minimise opposition to the union in Scotland. Cameron’s surprise post-referendum announcement infuriated many Scots because it implied that their MPs would no longer be full members of parliament, and some argued that they had been asked to vote to remain in the UK in a false premise."
If Gove really believes that, he’s high on his own supply. The idea that removing the tiny EVEL deckchair from the deck while leaving the giant Brexit one flapping about and smacking folk in the puss makes a tuppence worth of difference is dim. I’m pretty sure I know which of them most folk would consider relates to having been asked to vote to remain in the UK in a false premise.
It's a bit odd, too, BTW that everyone blames Mr Blair for asymmetric devolution. But it was the unionists (literally) who began it all with Stormont in 1921. Ever since then (apart from direct rule periods) the UK has never been a simple Westminster parliamentary state.
Scotland has had a separate civil administration since the 19th C. If an administration isn't accountable to its own jurisdiction, you have colonialism.
I suspect I am pushing on an open door with you on that point ...
Agree with this. I think the next election is going to feature some very interesting results in prosperous areas of the South. Most of the Tories I know through work are now ex Tories. Things like the "citizens of nowhere" speech went down like a bucket of cold sick on the trading floor. But the media are still engaged in their anthropological expeditions to Leaveland.
Confirmation bias. Given how raw your politics are Tories that disagree with you simply won't talk to you.
I talk to everyone at work. I think it's probably more down to the kind of Tories I meet. I don't encounter Tories outside of work, because they don't really live in my neighbourhood or have kids at local schools and I didn't make friends with any at university and I grew up in Scotland where Tories are a protected species. Tories in my field of work, which is the only place I encounter them apart from on here, tend towards the free maket/pro EU/socially liberal wing so mostly hate the current incarnation of the party. I've never had my political views described as raw before, I'll take that, it's better than half baked or overcooked I suppose!
I missed this earlier. I've worked with people just like you who have prejudiced views to those not on their side of the political spectrum, and are unable to see the other's point of view - preferring to stereotype and hurl insults instead.
In all cases, I was professional and polite with them but avoided talking politics with them and close relationships with them more generally. I think the rest of your post bares this out.
Everyone will have detected this about you and those who agree with you on some issues (like Brexit and Boris) will share it with you to build some sort of rapport, and those who don't will avoid you or keep their mouth shut.
I genuinely don't recognise myself in your description. For one thing, I think you are confusing how people communicate in online forums devoted to vigorous political debate, shorn of the subtleties of in-person human interaction, and how they interact in real life. I think there's a fair amount of projection going on, too, since you are probably one of the most abrasive and thin-skinned people on this site. I recall, for instance, the time you abused my parents and my dead grandparents, solely on the basis of their political views, and ignored completely my request for an apology. Prejudiced, hurling insults, yes; polite and professional, no. I have enjoyed friendships with people across the political spectrum, who knows perhaps IRL we could find common ground, if you could drop the permanent outrage act for just a second.
Lol. A masterclass in lack of self-awareness.
Still no apology then.
You project exactly what you're like onto me. You seem entirely unaware of the irony of this.
I'm happy to engage with posters who disagree with me in productive discussions that lead somewhere. For that to take place they need to have the intelligence and self-awareness to meaningfully reflect on what is said. There are many posters on the liberal-Left I enjoy debating with on this forum, including Jonathan, Gallowgate, Gardenwalker, Oldkingcole, SouthamObs, Doug Seal, Sandy.
You are not one of them. To be fair, there are others too, like OllyT and Mango, but the same applies to them too.
I think I have a reasonable degree of intelligence and self awareness, but I suppose if I were stupid and lacking in self-awareness I would think that, too. In my own conception of myself, I am unafraid of expressing my opinion, but am polite and refrain from insulting people or being personal. Perhaps tone is hard to convey online, and there may have been occasions when I have said something in jest that could come across as rude. If you feel like I've insulted you in the past I am genuinely sorry, it really wasn't intended. In all honesty, though, I don't think I have ever been as rude to you as you have been to me, on several occasions. I've tried not to take it to heart, but I was upset when you insulted my family.
I'm sorry if you felt I'd insulted your family. I simply observed that your political views appeared to run in your family in a sardonic way.
I don't like the way you throw around Gammon and Boomer and accuse others of prejudice whilst exhibiting some forms yourself, including crass generalisations. When you talk like that I feel you're insulting me and my family. I also get frustrated at how any discussion I have with you rolls back to step one, even if we make progress, the very next day. It makes you tiresome and annoying.
However, I'm happy to make peace if you are. We all have things to learn.
Thanks. I understand where you're coming from and will try to be less annoying in the future! Understood on Gammon and Boomer, I will refrain from use even when referring to GB News where they seem unbearably, serendipitously apposite. But no, resist! You may have to excuse and forgive my tendency to return to starting positions in a debate though - I have a memory like a seive, it drives my wife mad.
"having reflected on the procedure, the government believes it has not served our parliament well and that removing it would simplify the legislative process.
It’s a fundamental principle that all constituent parts of the United Kingdom should be equally represented in parliament."
As per Graun feed, which explains "The move is part of an attempt to minimise opposition to the union in Scotland. Cameron’s surprise post-referendum announcement infuriated many Scots because it implied that their MPs would no longer be full members of parliament, and some argued that they had been asked to vote to remain in the UK in a false premise."
If Gove really believes that, he’s high on his own supply. The idea that removing the tiny EVEL deckchair from the deck while leaving the giant Brexit one flapping about and smacking folk in the puss makes a tuppence worth of difference is dim. I’m pretty sure I know which of them most folk would consider relates to having been asked to vote to remain in the UK in a false premise.
It's a bit odd, too, BTW that everyone blames Mr Blair for asymmetric devolution. But it was the unionists (literally) who began it all with Stormont in 1921. Ever since then (apart from direct rule periods) the UK has never been a simple Westminster parliamentary state.
And Blair’s asymmetric devolution had the added benefit of being clearly stated in a manifesto which was voted for in a landslide. I’m not sure how many of the other lurches and convulsions of the UK’s constitutional journey that could be applied to.
Shaun Lintern @ShaunLintern · 54m Exclusive: Patients face 15-hour wait in hospital A&E as summer crisis grips NHS. @KatherineRCEM warns NHS faces worse situation than any previous winter:
WTF is going on? What are all these people going to A&E with?
I think it's more a capacity issue, caused by a combination of multiple things:
1. Capacity is reduced because of the need for Covid precautions 2. It's further reduced because a smallish number of Covid patients are arriving and they need to be isolated from everyone else 3. Meanwhile the NHS app is pinging staff who then have to stay away from work for 10 days 4. And at the same time the NHS is trying to catch up on the backlog, further straining resources
And probably:
5. People can't get to see a GP.
The issue I have is that governments (English and Scottish) don't appear to have any plan. Hospitals have to deal with what gets thrown at them, but it would be good to understand what the issues actually are and have mitigations in place for them. They have given up.
You think hospitals are just carrying on as normal or something?
Clearly they are not. Which is the problem. There appears to be no planning.
Well, you could see why they would feel that was okay. It's not like the Commons or the Lords is doing a good job of holding ministers to account, so you could junk the fiction that it's an important part of the system.
And given that the current system means that people like David Frost or (for balance) Andrew Adonis are now in the HoL for life, it can't be much worse than what we have now.
But once again, what control is being taken back to who?
"having reflected on the procedure, the government believes it has not served our parliament well and that removing it would simplify the legislative process.
It’s a fundamental principle that all constituent parts of the United Kingdom should be equally represented in parliament."
As per Graun feed, which explains "The move is part of an attempt to minimise opposition to the union in Scotland. Cameron’s surprise post-referendum announcement infuriated many Scots because it implied that their MPs would no longer be full members of parliament, and some argued that they had been asked to vote to remain in the UK in a false premise."
If Gove really believes that, he’s high on his own supply. The idea that removing the tiny EVEL deckchair from the deck while leaving the giant Brexit one flapping about and smacking folk in the puss makes a tuppence worth of difference is dim. I’m pretty sure I know which of them most folk would consider relates to having been asked to vote to remain in the UK in a false premise.
It's a bit odd, too, BTW that everyone blames Mr Blair for asymmetric devolution. But it was the unionists (literally) who began it all with Stormont in 1921. Ever since then (apart from direct rule periods) the UK has never been a simple Westminster parliamentary state.
And Blair’s asymmetric devolution had the added benefit of being clearly stated in a manifesto which was voted for in a landslide. I’m not sure how many of the other lurches and convulsions of the UK’s constitutional journey that could be applied to.
Well Johnson's Tories won a higher share of the vote in 2019 than New Labour in 1997...
Boris Johnson has opportunistically milked the success of the England football team to advance his political project. Will Southgate's players continue to allow themselves to be an appendage for Johnson's ambition? My new column for Middle east Eye: https://twitter.com/OborneTweets/status/1413144119145156611
Well, you could see why they would feel that was okay. It's not like the Commons or the Lords is doing a good job of holding ministers to account, so you could junk the fiction that it's an important part of the system.
And given that the current system means that people like David Frost or (for balance) Andrew Adonis are now in the HoL for life, it can't be much worse than what we have now.
But once again, what control is being taken back to who?
The only real alternative I can think of might be having fixed term peerages, rather than life one.
Well, that or have life-peers kicked out of the HoL in the obvious way, but that would make recruiting anyone to the posts fairly difficult.
I'm starting to see that EiT had a point about the British hating freedom.
If you are elderly, COVID had, at one point, a CFR (Case Fatality Rate) that rivalled some of the more funky plagues in history. 30-40%
If you were facing those numbers, you'd be shit scared. And rightly so.
Perhaps, but that doesn't justify permanent restrictions - that's just barking.
I agree with you 100% (Well maybe not 100%, I think masks in confined indoor spaces like public transport is a sensible precaution to retain for the time being).
Why what is it achieving ? cases are going up anyway but deaths from covid are at a level where it is not worth the damage anymore
I feel like I have a moral duty to reduce any chances of myself transmitting Covid to others. Even if it's in vain.
I don't know if the person the seat across from me suffers from health issues, i am on that bus every morning because I work at the hospital and I am about to start work, they could be going there for treatment for an underlying condition.
For me it matters that I have done everything I can to stop this awful virus spreading.
I'm starting to see that EiT had a point about the British hating freedom.
If you are elderly, COVID had, at one point, a CFR (Case Fatality Rate) that rivalled some of the more funky plagues in history. 30-40%
If you were facing those numbers, you'd be shit scared. And rightly so.
Perhaps, but that doesn't justify permanent restrictions - that's just barking.
I agree with you 100% (Well maybe not 100%, I think masks in confined indoor spaces like public transport is a sensible precaution to retain for the time being).
Why what is it achieving ? cases are going up anyway but deaths from covid are at a level where it is not worth the damage anymore
Some people can't get vaccinated, long Covid seems like a real problem, I don't know, it just seems like a relatively small inconvenience that could save someone's life or stop them getting a debilitating illness. And you can't just rely on people 'doing the right thing' voluntarily - look at our very own PM, in a car maskless with his driver and (I assume) security detail both wearing masks. It's obvious some people will not 'do the right thing' unless compelled. In general though, I agree we can't be locking down things for ever, having curfews or whatever, there lies madness.
Boris Johnson has opportunistically milked the success of the England football team to advance his political project. Will Southgate's players continue to allow themselves to be an appendage for Johnson's ambition? My new column for Middle east Eye: https://twitter.com/OborneTweets/status/1413144119145156611
In a study involving 10.2 million participants in Chile, the effectiveness of an inactivated, China-developed #SARSCoV2 vaccine [SinoVac] was estimated. Effectiveness was 65.9% for infection, 87.5% for hospitalization, 90.3% for ICU admission, and 86.3% for death.
NEW: @ipsosmori polling for The Economist shows some Brits support anti-covid restrictions *permanently*, regardless of covid risk. Inc:
- 19% for nighttime curfews - 26% for closing casinos and clubs - 35% for travel quarantine - 40% for masks
Amazing to think some people really do want these restrictions permanently
Its amazing and very depressing.
It's a classic case of people not being able to look out of their own narrow perspective. I don't go out much at night, so a curfew won't effect me, but might make me safe. I don't go to casino/clubs, so it doesn't matter if they're closed. I don't go abroad for holidays (and am jealous of those who do), so they can just f off. I don't go out much, and masks are fine, aren't they (though hijabs are EVIL).
yes its like me saying doughnuts should be banned because I hate them personally and never eat them (on the reasoning that they are bad for you )
A better example might be smoking. If you eat a doughnut, it doesn't effect me (unless there's an odd crumb-related incident). If you smoke, you might effect me.
You are aware aren't you that the Q1 figures are distorted by Covid19 and Q4 2020 stockpiling, aren't you? 🤦♂️
Curious that this Covid-19 effect seems to single out trade with the UK so drastically.
As for stockpiling, yes there was an effect. It would of course have affected imports from Germany (up 1%) as well as exports to Germany (down 15%). And this is over 5 months, easily long enough to smooth out the stockpiling effect.
But I'm sure you'll find more straws to clutch at as more and more evidence comes out.
"having reflected on the procedure, the government believes it has not served our parliament well and that removing it would simplify the legislative process.
It’s a fundamental principle that all constituent parts of the United Kingdom should be equally represented in parliament."
As per Graun feed, which explains "The move is part of an attempt to minimise opposition to the union in Scotland. Cameron’s surprise post-referendum announcement infuriated many Scots because it implied that their MPs would no longer be full members of parliament, and some argued that they had been asked to vote to remain in the UK in a false premise."
If Gove really believes that, he’s high on his own supply. The idea that removing the tiny EVEL deckchair from the deck while leaving the giant Brexit one flapping about and smacking folk in the puss makes a tuppence worth of difference is dim. I’m pretty sure I know which of them most folk would consider relates to having been asked to vote to remain in the UK in a false premise.
It's a bit odd, too, BTW that everyone blames Mr Blair for asymmetric devolution. But it was the unionists (literally) who began it all with Stormont in 1921. Ever since then (apart from direct rule periods) the UK has never been a simple Westminster parliamentary state.
Scotland has had a separate civil administration since the 19th C. If an administration isn't accountable to its own jurisdiction, you have colonialism.
I suspect I am pushing on an open door with you on that point ...
That too, though it's more that the vast majority of non-Scots MPs could swamp whatever the Scots voted for, and still can on many matters (as HYUFD always helpfully reminds us).
I think it was the imposition of the poll tax, just after a very unpopular rates revaluation that had not been applied in England, that really made a lot of Scots unhappy about the satrapy of the SoSfS and gave first Labour and then the SNP a boost.
Also Scotland (as discussed earlier) has had its own state church (albeit now disestablished) and legal system and legislation since 1707 within the Union of Parliaments. Not being able to control one's own laws (and, in the old days, kirk) is also colonialism. Hence the huge rows about the status of the established Church of Scotland, and the abandonment of it by the majority of Scots, in the 19th century. The Kirk didn't really recover till it jumped the state ship as well and merged with several of the split-off kirks slowly over the decades.
In a study involving 10.2 million participants in Chile, the effectiveness of an inactivated, China-developed #SARSCoV2 vaccine [SinoVac] was estimated. Effectiveness was 65.9% for infection, 87.5% for hospitalization, 90.3% for ICU admission, and 86.3% for death.
While those are no doubt very good German numbers, I'm not sure that mid-pandemic figures are particularly meaningful right now.
They are not meaningful only if the pandemic impacts trade between the UK and the EU and doesn't impact trade between the EU and everywhere else and the UK and everywhere else.
In any case there is plenty of corroboration of specific barriers to trade causing actual loss of trade to businesses. The consequence of Brexit is the erection of extensive and significant barriers to trade and movement. It's unarguable. Brexit may have upsides - I leave that to others to identify - but global it ain't
I'm starting to see that EiT had a point about the British hating freedom.
If you are elderly, COVID had, at one point, a CFR (Case Fatality Rate) that rivalled some of the more funky plagues in history. 30-40%
If you were facing those numbers, you'd be shit scared. And rightly so.
Perhaps, but that doesn't justify permanent restrictions - that's just barking.
I agree with you 100% (Well maybe not 100%, I think masks in confined indoor spaces like public transport is a sensible precaution to retain for the time being).
Why what is it achieving ? cases are going up anyway but deaths from covid are at a level where it is not worth the damage anymore
I feel like I have a moral duty to reduce any chances of myself transmitting Covid to others. Even if it's in vain.
I don't know if the person the seat across from me suffers from health issues, i am on that bus every morning because I work at the hospital and I am about to start work, they could be going there for treatment for an underlying condition.
For me it matters that I have done everything I can to stop this awful virus spreading.
as long as thats your decision I dont care what you do . Its the mandating for other people to wear masks etc especially by a government that breaks its own rules
Caitlin Moran @caitlinmoran · 17h Cab ride across London during extra time - pubs exploding, horns sounding. For an England team who took the knee, wear rainbow armbands, campaign against child poverty. It feels like a cultural game-changer on the same scale as The Beatles.
Hmmm. Colour me sceptical.
Jesus FUCKING Christ Lefties. Give it a fucking rest. Can we have something, anything which isn't about your fucking culture war all the fucking time.
There is so little you can do nowadays which doesn't involve getting shouted at by a fucking leftie with an agenda.
Eh? Nearly all the culture war stuff that I see is from people like your good self being triggered by someone on Twitter.
Interestingly, Ireland has decided to reopen indoor hospitality only to those fully vaccinated.
I'm so relieved that our government listened to the freedom loving amongst us, and not the I'm alright jack brigade.
It didn't, it kept us locked down more than necessary, with considerable avoidable economic damage, because it wasn't prepared to take account of the facts regarding vaccine protection. Today's announcements suggest they are finally getting there, but it's taken too long.
I think it's probably OK, or even a good idea, to allow things like inside dining to the fully vaccinated, if having a current negative test also gets you in. And people can get a free test. And at some point soon, if Covid is still a problem, if you've chosen not to be vaccinated, you have to pay for the test yourself. Something like that.
Some of us don't want a 'papers please' society. Luckily there are enough people who cherish freedom to shout down the 'I'm alright Jack' brigade
But you've just lived through a time when it literally wasn't allowed to leave your house without a government approved reason! That seems to me to be several orders of magnitude worse in terms of loss of freedom than saying if want to eat inside a restaurant show a test or a vaccination certificate.
And who are the "I'm alright Jack brigade"? People who have been vaccinated plus people willing to take a test to reduce the chance that might be passing on a potentially fatal disease? I don't get it.
It's about principles. Showing paperwork to get into a domestic establishment is the very definition of bio-security state. Introducing the sort of apparatus that allows social control.
If total restrictions on trade are required, so be it, but restrictions on entry for for something as simple as a coffeehouse? Madness.
I find it baffling that people are willing to go along with it. It's the same argument as 'well innocent people have nothing to fear from ID cards/total surveillance' etc.
I don't know, I don't feel like I've been living in a bio-security state the last weeks. People who've wanted to eat inside have grabbed a free Schnelltest and eaten inside. Other people have eaten outside or grabbed a takeaway. Hasn't seemed like a big deal. And now you don't need a test any more because the case numbers went down.
I have to say being in Germany during this time has changed my views on us freedom-loving Brits. I used to think we were maybe a bit more freedom loving than, say, the Germans. And in some ways that's probably true. But for most of this pandemic the rules and laws have seemed far more draconian in the UK than in Germany. So I have changed the way I see that a lot. People seem to accept restrictions in the UK that I don't think could happen so easily here. And I'm starting to think the UK might need a written constitution to guarantee citizens' basic rights, because there don't seem to be many guarantees at the moment.
"having reflected on the procedure, the government believes it has not served our parliament well and that removing it would simplify the legislative process.
It’s a fundamental principle that all constituent parts of the United Kingdom should be equally represented in parliament."
As per Graun feed, which explains "The move is part of an attempt to minimise opposition to the union in Scotland. Cameron’s surprise post-referendum announcement infuriated many Scots because it implied that their MPs would no longer be full members of parliament, and some argued that they had been asked to vote to remain in the UK in a false premise."
If Gove really believes that, he’s high on his own supply. The idea that removing the tiny EVEL deckchair from the deck while leaving the giant Brexit one flapping about and smacking folk in the puss makes a tuppence worth of difference is dim. I’m pretty sure I know which of them most folk would consider relates to having been asked to vote to remain in the UK in a false premise.
It's a bit odd, too, BTW that everyone blames Mr Blair for asymmetric devolution. But it was the unionists (literally) who began it all with Stormont in 1921. Ever since then (apart from direct rule periods) the UK has never been a simple Westminster parliamentary state.
And Blair’s asymmetric devolution had the added benefit of being clearly stated in a manifesto which was voted for in a landslide. I’m not sure how many of the other lurches and convulsions of the UK’s constitutional journey that could be applied to.
Well Johnson's Tories won a higher share of the vote in 2019 than New Labour in 1997...
A quick perusal of it doesn’t seem to mention rolling back EVEL or anything very specific regarding the Union. Still, the bits about standing up for NI and a post Brexit deal for our fisherman are a good laugh.
Caitlin Moran @caitlinmoran · 17h Cab ride across London during extra time - pubs exploding, horns sounding. For an England team who took the knee, wear rainbow armbands, campaign against child poverty. It feels like a cultural game-changer on the same scale as The Beatles.
Hmmm. Colour me sceptical.
Jesus FUCKING Christ Lefties. Give it a fucking rest. Can we have something, anything which isn't about your fucking culture war all the fucking time.
There is so little you can do nowadays which doesn't involve getting shouted at by a fucking leftie with an agenda.
Eh? Nearly all the culture war stuff that I see is from people like your good self being triggered by someone on Twitter.
Exactly. The only people going on about a 'culture war' and 'wokism' are the saddos on the right who cannot come to terms with the long sweep of history towards more liberal attitudes, greater acceptance of diversity, willingness to live and let live etc.
I'm starting to see that EiT had a point about the British hating freedom.
If you are elderly, COVID had, at one point, a CFR (Case Fatality Rate) that rivalled some of the more funky plagues in history. 30-40%
If you were facing those numbers, you'd be shit scared. And rightly so.
Perhaps, but that doesn't justify permanent restrictions - that's just barking.
You mean the fact that a third of people think that there should be permanent 10 quarantines for people returning from abroad? And one in five think that there should be a 10pm curfew, with police shooting those seen out after dark.
You are aware aren't you that the Q1 figures are distorted by Covid19 and Q4 2020 stockpiling, aren't you? 🤦♂️
Curious that this Covid-19 effect seems to single out trade with the UK so drastically.
As for stockpiling, yes there was an effect. It would of course have affected imports from Germany (up 1%) as well as exports to Germany (down 15%). And this is over 5 months, easily long enough to smooth out the stockpiling effect.
But I'm sure you'll find more straws to clutch at as more and more evidence comes out.
Not really. Exports were down by about 41% in January due in large part to the stockpiling effect etc, even dividing that over 5 months and its still over an 8% decline caused by January alone. So the majority of the 15% decline comes from January alone.
Only post-pandemic figures will be meaningful and definitely not any figure incorporating Q4 2020 or Q1 2021.
Really the only figures that matter at the end of the day are how UK GDP grows over the coming years and how that relates to the ~£10 billion net that we're no longer paying to Europe. If outside the EU the UK grows faster than the Eurozone does, then we're clearly better off and haven't lost anything even if trade flows change.
This is what Dominic Cummings wanted (are we sure he was sacked, and is not just WFH for Boris?). This is the American system, but without the checks and balances. There are doubtless good arguments for it. Democratic accountability won't be one.
They would certainly have to be accountable to parliamentary committees
Caitlin Moran @caitlinmoran · 17h Cab ride across London during extra time - pubs exploding, horns sounding. For an England team who took the knee, wear rainbow armbands, campaign against child poverty. It feels like a cultural game-changer on the same scale as The Beatles.
Hmmm. Colour me sceptical.
Jesus FUCKING Christ Lefties. Give it a fucking rest. Can we have something, anything which isn't about your fucking culture war all the fucking time.
There is so little you can do nowadays which doesn't involve getting shouted at by a fucking leftie with an agenda.
Eh? Nearly all the culture war stuff that I see is from people like your good self being triggered by someone on Twitter.
Exactly. The only people going on about a 'culture war' and 'wokism' are the saddos on the right who cannot come to terms with the long sweep of history towards more liberal attitudes, greater acceptance of diversity, willingness to live and let live etc.
Are you sure this isn't a narrative people tell themselves because it makes them feel modern and progressive? In reality social attitudes evolve in different directions and there is no "long sweep of history" towards liberal attitudes.
The government have got it wrong on masks on public transports, specifically the short term.
But some of the other stuff, we are going to need a public education campaign about risk....
Personally, I think bus drivers deserve to be protected from vaccine refuseniks, so I would maintain the public transport mask requirement.
Other than that, there should be no (or next to no) restrictions.
bus drivers have a huge perspex glass in front of them FFS
No good. Air currents. It's not hermetic.
Indeed I do wonder whether all the perspex that was installed early in the pandemic proved to be completely counter productive by removing air flow and ventilation.
In a study involving 10.2 million participants in Chile, the effectiveness of an inactivated, China-developed #SARSCoV2 vaccine [SinoVac] was estimated. Effectiveness was 65.9% for infection, 87.5% for hospitalization, 90.3% for ICU admission, and 86.3% for death.
The government have got it wrong on masks on public transports, specifically the short term.
But some of the other stuff, we are going to need a public education campaign about risk....
Personally, I think bus drivers deserve to be protected from vaccine refuseniks, so I would maintain the public transport mask requirement.
Other than that, there should be no (or next to no) restrictions.
bus drivers have a huge perspex glass in front of them FFS
No good. Air currents. It's not hermetic.
Indeed I do wonder whether all the perspex that was installed early in the pandemic proved to be completely counter productive by removing air flow and ventilation.
Not necessarily - it all depends, I should think - but some people would have caught the short straw if it diverted currents the wrong way.
You are aware aren't you that the Q1 figures are distorted by Covid19 and Q4 2020 stockpiling, aren't you? 🤦♂️
Curious that this Covid-19 effect seems to single out trade with the UK so drastically.
As for stockpiling, yes there was an effect. It would of course have affected imports from Germany (up 1%) as well as exports to Germany (down 15%). And this is over 5 months, easily long enough to smooth out the stockpiling effect.
But I'm sure you'll find more straws to clutch at as more and more evidence comes out.
Not really. Exports were down by about 41% in January due in large part to the stockpiling effect etc, even dividing that over 5 months and its still over an 8% decline caused by January alone. So the majority of the 15% decline comes from January alone.
Only post-pandemic figures will be meaningful and definitely not any figure incorporating Q4 2020 or Q1 2021.
Really the only figures that matter at the end of the day are how UK GDP grows over the coming years and how that relates to the ~£10 billion net that we're no longer paying to Europe. If outside the EU the UK grows faster than the Eurozone does, then we're clearly better off and haven't lost anything even if trade flows change.
That's not *quite* true: if UK GDP went up by 1% more than Eurozone GDP, but it was achieved by the incomes of the rich rising at 5% per year, while the bottom quartile saw theirs shrink by 1% per year, then I think we would all agree that Brexit had not delivered a dividend to the lower paid.
Not really. Exports were down by about 41% in January due in large part to the stockpiling effect etc, even dividing that over 5 months and its still over an 8% decline caused by January alone. So the majority of the 15% decline comes from January alone.
And what's your explanation for the fact that imports from Germany don't show this effect?
The government have got it wrong on masks on public transports, specifically the short term.
But some of the other stuff, we are going to need a public education campaign about risk....
Personally, I think bus drivers deserve to be protected from vaccine refuseniks, so I would maintain the public transport mask requirement.
Other than that, there should be no (or next to no) restrictions.
bus drivers have a huge perspex glass in front of them FFS
The figures in Los Angeles for bus drivers and Covid were absolutely horrendous: it was perhaps the most dangerous profession to be in.
They are going to be in a poorly ventilated vehicle for six or seven hours. If there are a couple of unvaccinated Delta carriers aboard the bus, then you could easily see viral load get to a level that would overwhelm the efficacy of vaccines.
You are aware aren't you that the Q1 figures are distorted by Covid19 and Q4 2020 stockpiling, aren't you? 🤦♂️
Curious that this Covid-19 effect seems to single out trade with the UK so drastically.
As for stockpiling, yes there was an effect. It would of course have affected imports from Germany (up 1%) as well as exports to Germany (down 15%). And this is over 5 months, easily long enough to smooth out the stockpiling effect.
But I'm sure you'll find more straws to clutch at as more and more evidence comes out.
Not really. Exports were down by about 41% in January due in large part to the stockpiling effect etc, even dividing that over 5 months and its still over an 8% decline caused by January alone. So the majority of the 15% decline comes from January alone.
Only post-pandemic figures will be meaningful and definitely not any figure incorporating Q4 2020 or Q1 2021.
Really the only figures that matter at the end of the day are how UK GDP grows over the coming years and how that relates to the ~£10 billion net that we're no longer paying to Europe. If outside the EU the UK grows faster than the Eurozone does, then we're clearly better off and haven't lost anything even if trade flows change.
That's not *quite* true: if UK GDP went up by 1% more than Eurozone GDP, but it was achieved by the incomes of the rich rising at 5% per year, while the bottom quartile saw theirs shrink by 1% per year, then I think we would all agree that Brexit had not delivered a dividend to the lower paid.
Well even if that happened the UK as a whole would be better off and it would be up to national politics to determine whether we wanted more redistribution or other policies as a response to that.
The government have got it wrong on masks on public transports, specifically the short term.
But some of the other stuff, we are going to need a public education campaign about risk....
Personally, I think bus drivers deserve to be protected from vaccine refuseniks, so I would maintain the public transport mask requirement.
Other than that, there should be no (or next to no) restrictions.
bus drivers have a huge perspex glass in front of them FFS
Also I catch the bus every day and I would estimate that at most 10% of bus drivers are wearing masks themselves. And given that you CAN buy masks designed to protect yourself rather than other people...
Caitlin Moran @caitlinmoran · 17h Cab ride across London during extra time - pubs exploding, horns sounding. For an England team who took the knee, wear rainbow armbands, campaign against child poverty. It feels like a cultural game-changer on the same scale as The Beatles.
Hmmm. Colour me sceptical.
Jesus FUCKING Christ Lefties. Give it a fucking rest. Can we have something, anything which isn't about your fucking culture war all the fucking time.
There is so little you can do nowadays which doesn't involve getting shouted at by a fucking leftie with an agenda.
Eh? Nearly all the culture war stuff that I see is from people like your good self being triggered by someone on Twitter.
Exactly. The only people going on about a 'culture war' and 'wokism' are the saddos on the right who cannot come to terms with the long sweep of history towards more liberal attitudes, greater acceptance of diversity, willingness to live and let live etc.
Are you sure this isn't a narrative people tell themselves because it makes them feel modern and progressive? In reality social attitudes evolve in different directions and there is no "long sweep of history" towards liberal attitudes.
It's a view. Which social attitudes do you think have evloved in a way counter to liberal/progressive views over the past say 30, 50, 100, 200 or 500 years?
I'm starting to see that EiT had a point about the British hating freedom.
If you are elderly, COVID had, at one point, a CFR (Case Fatality Rate) that rivalled some of the more funky plagues in history. 30-40%
If you were facing those numbers, you'd be shit scared. And rightly so.
Perhaps, but that doesn't justify permanent restrictions - that's just barking.
You mean the fact that a third of people think that there should be permanent 10 quarantines for people returning from abroad? And one in five think that there should be a 10pm curfew, with police shooting those seen out after dark.
The latter must be the Tory voting elderly. Who probably think that anyway even before covid.
The government have got it wrong on masks on public transports, specifically the short term.
But some of the other stuff, we are going to need a public education campaign about risk....
Personally, I think bus drivers deserve to be protected from vaccine refuseniks, so I would maintain the public transport mask requirement.
Other than that, there should be no (or next to no) restrictions.
bus drivers have a huge perspex glass in front of them FFS
No good. Air currents. It's not hermetic.
Indeed I do wonder whether all the perspex that was installed early in the pandemic proved to be completely counter productive by removing air flow and ventilation.
There's an increasing amount of evidence that perspex shields in shops make things worse, so it's likely they would have a similar effect on public transport.
Caitlin Moran @caitlinmoran · 17h Cab ride across London during extra time - pubs exploding, horns sounding. For an England team who took the knee, wear rainbow armbands, campaign against child poverty. It feels like a cultural game-changer on the same scale as The Beatles.
Hmmm. Colour me sceptical.
Jesus FUCKING Christ Lefties. Give it a fucking rest. Can we have something, anything which isn't about your fucking culture war all the fucking time.
There is so little you can do nowadays which doesn't involve getting shouted at by a fucking leftie with an agenda.
Eh? Nearly all the culture war stuff that I see is from people like your good self being triggered by someone on Twitter.
Exactly. The only people going on about a 'culture war' and 'wokism' are the saddos on the right who cannot come to terms with the long sweep of history towards more liberal attitudes, greater acceptance of diversity, willingness to live and let live etc.
Are you sure this isn't a narrative people tell themselves because it makes them feel modern and progressive? In reality social attitudes evolve in different directions and there is no "long sweep of history" towards liberal attitudes.
It's a view. Which social attitudes do you think have evloved in a way counter to liberal/progressive views over the past say 30, 50, 100, 200 or 500 years?
(PS Yes, I am pretty sure.)
There's an issue there though in that "progressive" is not an objective term. So going from A to B can be defined as progressive, while in a parallel universe going from B to A would also be defined as progressive.
Agree with this. I think the next election is going to feature some very interesting results in prosperous areas of the South. Most of the Tories I know through work are now ex Tories. Things like the "citizens of nowhere" speech went down like a bucket of cold sick on the trading floor. But the media are still engaged in their anthropological expeditions to Leaveland.
Confirmation bias. Given how raw your politics are Tories that disagree with you simply won't talk to you.
I talk to everyone at work. I think it's probably more down to the kind of Tories I meet. I don't encounter Tories outside of work, because they don't really live in my neighbourhood or have kids at local schools and I didn't make friends with any at university and I grew up in Scotland where Tories are a protected species. Tories in my field of work, which is the only place I encounter them apart from on here, tend towards the free maket/pro EU/socially liberal wing so mostly hate the current incarnation of the party. I've never had my political views described as raw before, I'll take that, it's better than half baked or overcooked I suppose!
I missed this earlier. I've worked with people just like you who have prejudiced views to those not on their side of the political spectrum, and are unable to see the other's point of view - preferring to stereotype and hurl insults instead.
In all cases, I was professional and polite with them but avoided talking politics with them and close relationships with them more generally. I think the rest of your post bares this out.
Everyone will have detected this about you and those who agree with you on some issues (like Brexit and Boris) will share it with you to build some sort of rapport, and those who don't will avoid you or keep their mouth shut.
I genuinely don't recognise myself in your description. For one thing, I think you are confusing how people communicate in online forums devoted to vigorous political debate, shorn of the subtleties of in-person human interaction, and how they interact in real life. I think there's a fair amount of projection going on, too, since you are probably one of the most abrasive and thin-skinned people on this site. I recall, for instance, the time you abused my parents and my dead grandparents, solely on the basis of their political views, and ignored completely my request for an apology. Prejudiced, hurling insults, yes; polite and professional, no. I have enjoyed friendships with people across the political spectrum, who knows perhaps IRL we could find common ground, if you could drop the permanent outrage act for just a second.
In support of what Casino says...most at work think I am apolitical I often lambasted for not paying attention to politics. Simple fact is I don't say anything because I work with a corbynista and a rainbow flag waver and I know saying anything just provokes a row at work so I keep quiet and let them spout
Comments
If total restrictions on trade are required, so be it, but restrictions on entry for for something as simple as a coffeehouse? Madness.
I find it baffling that people are willing to go along with it. It's the same argument as 'well innocent people have nothing to fear from ID cards/total surveillance' etc.
The government is going to need some nads to make it.
I suspect I am pushing on an open door with you on that point ...
You may have to excuse and forgive my tendency to return to starting positions in a debate though - I have a memory like a seive, it drives my wife mad.
But once again, what control is being taken back to who?
But the point remains.
Change in German imports from:
+13% total
+17% Rest of EU
-2% USA
+16% China
-15% UK
Change in German exports to:
+15% total
+19% Rest of EU
+16% USA
+20% China
+1% UK
That'll learn 'em! No wonder the German car manufacturers were so keen to come to our rescue, as predicted.
It really is amazing being able to watch, in real time, the effect of a major modern economy imposing economic sanctions on itself.
https://twitter.com/DennisNovy/status/1413175086706745353
Most inexperienced squad since the 80s and they smashed it. Good sign for the future of England Cricket when players like Anderson, Broad etc retire.
Well, that or have life-peers kicked out of the HoL in the obvious way, but that would make recruiting anyone to the posts fairly difficult.
I don't know if the person the seat across from me suffers from health issues, i am on that bus every morning because I work at the hospital and I am about to start work, they could be going there for treatment for an underlying condition.
For me it matters that I have done everything I can to stop this awful virus spreading.
You are aware aren't you that the Q1 figures are distorted by Covid19 and Q4 2020 stockpiling, aren't you? 🤦♂️
And you can't just rely on people 'doing the right thing' voluntarily - look at our very own PM, in a car maskless with his driver and (I assume) security detail both wearing masks. It's obvious some people will not 'do the right thing' unless compelled.
In general though, I agree we can't be locking down things for ever, having curfews or whatever, there lies madness.
People around me having covid might effect me.
As for stockpiling, yes there was an effect. It would of course have affected imports from Germany (up 1%) as well as exports to Germany (down 15%). And this is over 5 months, easily long enough to smooth out the stockpiling effect.
But I'm sure you'll find more straws to clutch at as more and more evidence comes out.
I think it was the imposition of the poll tax, just after a very unpopular rates revaluation that had not been applied in England, that really made a lot of Scots unhappy about the satrapy of the SoSfS and gave first Labour and then the SNP a boost.
Also Scotland (as discussed earlier) has had its own state church (albeit now disestablished) and legal system and legislation since 1707 within the Union of Parliaments. Not being able to control one's own laws (and, in the old days, kirk) is also colonialism. Hence the huge rows about the status of the established Church of Scotland, and the abandonment of it by the majority of Scots, in the 19th century. The Kirk didn't really recover till it jumped the state ship as well and merged with several of the split-off kirks slowly over the decades.
In any case there is plenty of corroboration of specific barriers to trade causing actual loss of trade to businesses. The consequence of Brexit is the erection of extensive and significant barriers to trade and movement. It's unarguable. Brexit may have upsides - I leave that to others to identify - but global it ain't
Fishermen are like wild boar hunters.
And they simply can't compere with farmers who keep pigs in cages.
Brexit and discussion of sale of caught fish is just a distraction from this.
Other than that, there should be no (or next to no) restrictions.
People who've wanted to eat inside have grabbed a free Schnelltest and eaten inside. Other people have eaten outside or grabbed a takeaway. Hasn't seemed like a big deal. And now you don't need a test any more because the case numbers went down.
I have to say being in Germany during this time has changed my views on us freedom-loving Brits. I used to think we were maybe a bit more freedom loving than, say, the Germans. And in some ways that's probably true. But for most of this pandemic the rules and laws have seemed far more draconian in the UK than in Germany. So I have changed the way I see that a lot. People seem to accept restrictions in the UK that I don't think could happen so easily here. And I'm starting to think the UK might need a written constitution to guarantee citizens' basic rights, because there don't seem to be many guarantees at the moment.
Only post-pandemic figures will be meaningful and definitely not any figure incorporating Q4 2020 or Q1 2021.
Really the only figures that matter at the end of the day are how UK GDP grows over the coming years and how that relates to the ~£10 billion net that we're no longer paying to Europe. If outside the EU the UK grows faster than the Eurozone does, then we're clearly better off and haven't lost anything even if trade flows change.
But yes, I don't understand the connection with covid ...
I admit, I could have expressed myself more clearly.
But there's been some interesting stories coming from America of dramatically improved quality of fish farming. That is the future.
They are going to be in a poorly ventilated vehicle for six or seven hours. If there are a couple of unvaccinated Delta carriers aboard the bus, then you could easily see viral load get to a level that would overwhelm the efficacy of vaccines.
(PS Yes, I am pretty sure.)
But if they are one tenth of the price, then they will impact demand for wild boar.
(And not all types of fish can be farmed, but the number is increasing.)