Boris Johnson’s opposition to Indyref2 might be as Herculean as his opposition to a border in the Ir

malcolmg said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

eek said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Scott_xP said:

Foxy said:

I think a further Sindyref inevitable, it is just a matter of timing. Having an outline agreed between Westminster and Holyrood of what Indy Scotland would be like would be a useful lesson to learn from the post Brexit fiasco.

Which is why it won't happen.

BoZo can't demand a detailed manifesto after all his bullshit for Brexit

It must be ever so painful for you that despite all your comments Boris gets more popular by the day and today many European newspapers are blaming him for the collapse of the ESL

He will wear that badge with pride

Boris 2 - Europe 0

I don't think stopping English teams playing in a Super League wins Boris any votes in Scotland.

Actually the SNP were wholly behind Boris as the ESL would have affected football across the UK

Who was invited to join from Scotland then, or who would have been impacted.

LostPassword said:

RochdalePioneers said:

DavidL said:

Boris was clear in his prezzer yesterday that he expects a third wave in the Autumn and was once again clear that we are going to have to learn to live with Covid, we will not eliminate it. The controversial vaccine certificate scheme was being floated as a possible way of facilitating some of that living. but not in a way that Boris couldn't tiptoe back from if it proves unpopular. So I think in this case the messaging is now pretty much aligned with reality as best as we can judge it. The BBC commented that early in the pandemic Boris had consistently focused on the upside and the possible and had used the word "alas" a lot in subsequent presentations. The consensus was that was no longer the case and he is being more cautious.

The scientists seem clear that Covid isn't going to miraculously disappear on 21st June as billed. When restrictions carry on an awful lot of people who take the PM at face value (helped along by the friendly press) are going to be mightily pissed off.

We're 13 months into this, and I wouldn't be surprised if another year down the line we aren't still enjoying Covid restrictions of some kind. I hope not, but hope isn't enough, nor is mass vaccination of the UK population against the existing strain.

Realistically there's not a huge amount more that we can do to protect ourselves after we've all been double-dosed. And, the vaccines work so well that the worst-case scenario for Covid will then be a lot less severe than a bad flu season.

So there's no justification for any (domestic) restrictions at that point. We get vaccinated and then the Emergency (at least domestically) is over - though of course the public health professionals will keep working on reducing the risks further with boosters against variants, etc.

I'd keep travel restrictions until other countries are also vaccinated. Apart from anything else it would provide more motivation to us to help that happen as quickly as possible.

RochdalePioneers said:

They would have been paid had their ventilator design been fit for purpose and been ordered. As Faisal Islam reports, there seemed to be an odd leaning towards non-competent JCB and Dyson (Brexit supporting Tory donors) over the others which seems inextricable...

Scott_xP said:

I understand No 11 was uneasy about what Dyson was asking for, and it's suggested they had quite deliberately not responded to his firm's requests before Sir James himself then texted Johnson directly about the tax issue
https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1384807616367452160

I'm told Sunak did not and has never had any personal contact with Sir James Dyson

Endillion said:

Gallowgate said:

Endillion said:

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Scott_xP said:

Nothing to see here...

@REWearmouth: “I am first lord of the Treasury,” Boris Johnson tells James Dyson in text convo mid-pandemic about what tax Dyson… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1384762048408604674

Absolutely damn right, during a pandemic you do whatever it takes to get the medical equipment we need.

You'd rather people die than Boris does his job wouldn't you?

Those deaths would have been on James Dyson.

The absolute gall of you people defending him for putting his own (despicable) tax arrangements above people's lives.

Sums up everything that is wrong with 21st century capitalism.

You what?

If employees working in and based in Singapore had stayed in Singapore, rather than coming to the UK and working not-for-profit to save lives in the UK, then how would that have put deaths on his head?

"I refuse to come to my own country and save lives of my compatriots unless you change the law to protect my tax arrangements, Boris".

Imagine someone actually saying that.

Then imagine defending someone who said that.

Christ on a bike, there's no morals left whatsoever.

I thought these people were supposed to believe in Britain and the British people?

Imagine defending a position where you'd rather watch people die than give a tax break to the person who could save their lives.

Oh, wait. I don't have to imagine.

If Dyson employees were unwilling to come back to the UK to help the nation during a pandemic, I'm sure there were plenty of companies and employees in the UK who would have been wiling to do the work.

Why does the work have to come from Boris's mates?

Weren't we pursuing all avenues as it was? There's not exactly a glut of similar companies with the right sort of expertise, even in this country.

Gallowgate said:

Endillion said:

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Scott_xP said:

Nothing to see here...

@REWearmouth: “I am first lord of the Treasury,” Boris Johnson tells James Dyson in text convo mid-pandemic about what tax Dyson… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1384762048408604674

Absolutely damn right, during a pandemic you do whatever it takes to get the medical equipment we need.

You'd rather people die than Boris does his job wouldn't you?

Those deaths would have been on James Dyson.

The absolute gall of you people defending him for putting his own (despicable) tax arrangements above people's lives.

Sums up everything that is wrong with 21st century capitalism.

You what?

If employees working in and based in Singapore had stayed in Singapore, rather than coming to the UK and working not-for-profit to save lives in the UK, then how would that have put deaths on his head?

"I refuse to come to my own country and save lives of my compatriots unless you change the law to protect my tax arrangements, Boris".

Imagine someone actually saying that.

Then imagine defending someone who said that.

Christ on a bike, there's no morals left whatsoever.

I thought these people were supposed to believe in Britain and the British people?

Imagine defending a position where you'd rather watch people die than give a tax break to the person who could save their lives.

Oh, wait. I don't have to imagine.

If Dyson employees were unwilling to come back to the UK to help the nation during a pandemic, I'm sure there were plenty of companies and employees in the UK who would have been wiling to do the work.

Why does the work have to come from Boris's mates?

Time_to_Leave said:

Sorry, but nobody who is remotely fair minded has an issue with this one.

Sandpit said:

Malmesbury said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Scott_xP said:

Nothing to see here...

@REWearmouth: “I am first lord of the Treasury,” Boris Johnson tells James Dyson in text convo mid-pandemic about what tax Dyson… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1384762048408604674

Absolutely damn right, during a pandemic you do whatever it takes to get the medical equipment we need.

You'd rather people die than Boris does his job wouldn't you?

Those deaths would have been on James Dyson.

The absolute gall of you people defending him for putting his own (despicable) tax arrangements above people's lives.

Sums up everything that is wrong with 21st century capitalism.

I think the bigger scandal of this is not todays story but the real story that has never been covered and that was that anyone who knows anything about medical devices knows that you don't ask a vacuum cleaner or digger manufacturer to make medical devices. It is as dumb as suggesting a brewing company should make vaccines. Time was wasted on giving publicity to companies that were run by Brexit supporting cronies of Boris Johnson when proper medical device companies that had capacity and knowhow with respect to Class 2 and Class 3 regulated medical devices were ignored. I was apoplectic about it then and I still am now.

The most effective devices - which ended up invalidating the idea of mass producing traditional ventilators - were produced by an F1 engineering team.

One of the best videos to come out of the pandemic last year:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij3g8kscdeA

10,000 CPAP machines manufactured and delivered, from backwards-engineering an existing single old device, in less than a month.

Then they open-sourced the whole project, down to the program files for the CNC machines, and there's now several dozen countries where they are being produced. Well done Mercedes

Philip_Thompson said:

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Scott_xP said:

Nothing to see here...

@REWearmouth: “I am first lord of the Treasury,” Boris Johnson tells James Dyson in text convo mid-pandemic about what tax Dyson… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1384762048408604674

Absolutely damn right, during a pandemic you do whatever it takes to get the medical equipment we need.

You'd rather people die than Boris does his job wouldn't you?

Those deaths would have been on James Dyson.

The absolute gall of you people defending him for putting his own (despicable) tax arrangements above people's lives.

Sums up everything that is wrong with 21st century capitalism.

You what?

If employees working in and based in Singapore had stayed in Singapore, rather than coming to the UK and working not-for-profit to save lives in the UK, then how would that have put deaths on his head?

Time_to_Leave said:

noneoftheabove said:

Foss said:

London Comres out:

London Mayoral Voting Intention:

Khan (LAB): 41%
Bailey (CON): 28%
Porritt (LDM): 8%
Berry (GRN): 6%
Omilana (IND): 5%

Via
@SavantaComRes
, 13-19 Apr.

Still a firm Khan win on the second round.

Tories regretting not putting out a halfway capable candidate now. Stewart as the Tory would have won this given the vaccination boost.

Dunno, I read that as meaning that by the final round, any Tory candidate would really struggle unless they are at more or less 50% up front. Presumably Boris used to get LibDem transfers.

Richard_Nabavi said:

RochdalePioneers said:

They would have been paid had their ventilator design been fit for purpose and been ordered. As Faisal Islam reports, there seemed to be an odd leaning towards non-competent JCB and Dyson (Brexit supporting Tory donors) over the others which seems inextricable...

[I presume you mean 'inexplicable'.]

Yes, that is the valid criticism. There was absolutely nothing wrong with a temporary dispensation on the tax rules to prevent those who were trying to help being penalised with a whopping personal tax charge; after all, there were lots of temporary amendments to the rules because of the peculiar circumstances of the pandemic.

However, there does seem to have been a rather naive belief that JCB and Dyson were in a better position to design and produce medical-grade equipment in a hurry than companies with actual experience in the field. (And indeed they weren't, as it turned out).

So, nothing dodgy about this, just mismanagement.

Endillion said:

Gallowgate said:

Endillion said:

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Scott_xP said:

Nothing to see here...

@REWearmouth: “I am first lord of the Treasury,” Boris Johnson tells James Dyson in text convo mid-pandemic about what tax Dyson… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1384762048408604674

Absolutely damn right, during a pandemic you do whatever it takes to get the medical equipment we need.

You'd rather people die than Boris does his job wouldn't you?

Those deaths would have been on James Dyson.

The absolute gall of you people defending him for putting his own (despicable) tax arrangements above people's lives.

Sums up everything that is wrong with 21st century capitalism.

You what?

If employees working in and based in Singapore had stayed in Singapore, rather than coming to the UK and working not-for-profit to save lives in the UK, then how would that have put deaths on his head?

"I refuse to come to my own country and save lives of my compatriots unless you change the law to protect my tax arrangements, Boris".

Imagine someone actually saying that.

Then imagine defending someone who said that.

Christ on a bike, there's no morals left whatsoever.

I thought these people were supposed to believe in Britain and the British people?

Imagine defending a position where you'd rather watch people die than give a tax break to the person who could save their lives.

Oh, wait. I don't have to imagine.

If Dyson employees were unwilling to come back to the UK to help the nation during a pandemic, I'm sure there were plenty of companies and employees in the UK who would have been wiling to do the work.

Why does the work have to come from Boris's mates?

Weren't we pursuing all avenues as it was? There's not exactly a glut of similar companies with the right sort of expertise, even in this country.

Endillion said:

MaxPB said:

Foss said:

London Comres out:

London Mayoral Voting Intention:

Khan (LAB): 41%
Bailey (CON): 28%
Porritt (LDM): 8%
Berry (GRN): 6%
Omilana (IND): 5%

Via
@SavantaComRes
, 13-19 Apr.

Still a firm Khan win on the second round.

That's a lot closer than I expected it to be and who the fuck is Omilana?

All I know about Omilana is that she's the only candidate who couldn't or wouldn't stump up £10k to get her profile into the info booklet that gets sent to all voters. So either she's super hard up for cash, or has zero expectations of winning and isn't really trying, or assumes none of her likely voters can read so needs to reach them in other ways.

Either way, 5% sounds... high.

Nigel_Foremain said:

Endillion said:

Gallowgate said:

Endillion said:

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Scott_xP said:

Nothing to see here...

@REWearmouth: “I am first lord of the Treasury,” Boris Johnson tells James Dyson in text convo mid-pandemic about what tax Dyson… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1384762048408604674

Absolutely damn right, during a pandemic you do whatever it takes to get the medical equipment we need.

You'd rather people die than Boris does his job wouldn't you?

Those deaths would have been on James Dyson.

The absolute gall of you people defending him for putting his own (despicable) tax arrangements above people's lives.

Sums up everything that is wrong with 21st century capitalism.

You what?

If employees working in and based in Singapore had stayed in Singapore, rather than coming to the UK and working not-for-profit to save lives in the UK, then how would that have put deaths on his head?

"I refuse to come to my own country and save lives of my compatriots unless you change the law to protect my tax arrangements, Boris".

Imagine someone actually saying that.

Then imagine defending someone who said that.

Christ on a bike, there's no morals left whatsoever.

I thought these people were supposed to believe in Britain and the British people?

Imagine defending a position where you'd rather watch people die than give a tax break to the person who could save their lives.

Oh, wait. I don't have to imagine.

If Dyson employees were unwilling to come back to the UK to help the nation during a pandemic, I'm sure there were plenty of companies and employees in the UK who would have been wiling to do the work.

Why does the work have to come from Boris's mates?

Weren't we pursuing all avenues as it was? There's not exactly a glut of similar companies with the right sort of expertise, even in this country.

There is not a glut, but there were companies that actually have the expertise that were ignored so they could pretend a vacuum cleaner company could make a ventilator that was not proven it wouldn't kill people -devices need to go through regulatory processes to demonstrate efficacy in a similar way to a drug. It was fucking ignorant.

kjh said:

MattW said:

2nd AZ Jab successful.

This time it was a leisure centre manager and a lifeguard.

Both of whom said it was more interesting than their normal jobs as they get to meet more interesting people.

Centre still running at 1000 people per day.

It took 2 people to hold the syringe; that must have been one hell of a jab.

Richard_Nabavi said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

RochdalePioneers said:

They would have been paid had their ventilator design been fit for purpose and been ordered. As Faisal Islam reports, there seemed to be an odd leaning towards non-competent JCB and Dyson (Brexit supporting Tory donors) over the others which seems inextricable...

[I presume you mean 'inexplicable'.]

Yes, that is the valid criticism. There was absolutely nothing wrong with a temporary dispensation on the tax rules to prevent those who were trying to help being penalised with a whopping personal tax charge; after all, there were lots of temporary amendments to the rules because of the peculiar circumstances of the pandemic.

However, there does seem to have been a rather naive belief that JCB and Dyson were in a better position to design and produce medical-grade equipment in a hurry than companies with actual experience in the field. (And indeed they weren't, as it turned out).

So, nothing dodgy about this, just mismanagement.

No mismanagement since they did this scheme in parallel with other schemes. The one that worked and made this one redundant was from a Formula 1 company.

Its like the vaccine project all over again. Don't pick one horse and run with it - back them all and see which works.

To an extent, yes, and to be fair I'd cut the government quite a lot of slack on this. At the time, getting enough ventilators looked like a critical requirement, although in the end it wasn't. Nonetheless, it does seem that insufficient attention was given to the existing, experienced manufacturers.

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Endillion said:

Gallowgate said:

Endillion said:

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Scott_xP said:

Nothing to see here...

@REWearmouth: “I am first lord of the Treasury,” Boris Johnson tells James Dyson in text convo mid-pandemic about what tax Dyson… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1384762048408604674

Absolutely damn right, during a pandemic you do whatever it takes to get the medical equipment we need.

You'd rather people die than Boris does his job wouldn't you?

Those deaths would have been on James Dyson.

The absolute gall of you people defending him for putting his own (despicable) tax arrangements above people's lives.

Sums up everything that is wrong with 21st century capitalism.

You what?

If employees working in and based in Singapore had stayed in Singapore, rather than coming to the UK and working not-for-profit to save lives in the UK, then how would that have put deaths on his head?

"I refuse to come to my own country and save lives of my compatriots unless you change the law to protect my tax arrangements, Boris".

Imagine someone actually saying that.

Then imagine defending someone who said that.

Christ on a bike, there's no morals left whatsoever.

I thought these people were supposed to believe in Britain and the British people?

Imagine defending a position where you'd rather watch people die than give a tax break to the person who could save their lives.

Oh, wait. I don't have to imagine.

If Dyson employees were unwilling to come back to the UK to help the nation during a pandemic, I'm sure there were plenty of companies and employees in the UK who would have been wiling to do the work.

Why does the work have to come from Boris's mates?

Weren't we pursuing all avenues as it was? There's not exactly a glut of similar companies with the right sort of expertise, even in this country.

There is not a glut, but there were companies that actually have the expertise that were ignored so they could pretend a vacuum cleaner company could make a ventilator that was not proven it wouldn't kill people -devices need to go through regulatory processes to demonstrate efficacy in a similar way to a drug. It was fucking ignorant.

Yes because what could an engineering company with knowledge of engineering possibly know about engineering eh?

A challenge was set to all who could try and do it and many rose to the challenge. It was open to everyone and yes some companies not normally associated with medicine and more associated with vaccuums or Formula 1 took part.

If it was up to you then I suppose Formula 1 companies wouldn't have been able to take part in the challenge either?

Did the Formula 1 companies expect favourable treatment from their mates in the government as a result?

Nigel_Foremain said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Gallowgate said:

Endillion said:

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Scott_xP said:

Nothing to see here...

@REWearmouth: “I am first lord of the Treasury,” Boris Johnson tells James Dyson in text convo mid-pandemic about what tax Dyson… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1384762048408604674

Absolutely damn right, during a pandemic you do whatever it takes to get the medical equipment we need.

You'd rather people die than Boris does his job wouldn't you?

Those deaths would have been on James Dyson.

The absolute gall of you people defending him for putting his own (despicable) tax arrangements above people's lives.

Sums up everything that is wrong with 21st century capitalism.

You what?

If employees working in and based in Singapore had stayed in Singapore, rather than coming to the UK and working not-for-profit to save lives in the UK, then how would that have put deaths on his head?

"I refuse to come to my own country and save lives of my compatriots unless you change the law to protect my tax arrangements, Boris".

Imagine someone actually saying that.

Then imagine defending someone who said that.

Christ on a bike, there's no morals left whatsoever.

I thought these people were supposed to believe in Britain and the British people?

Imagine defending a position where you'd rather watch people die than give a tax break to the person who could save their lives.

Oh, wait. I don't have to imagine.

If Dyson employees were unwilling to come back to the UK to help the nation during a pandemic, I'm sure there were plenty of companies and employees in the UK who would have been wiling to do the work.

Why does the work have to come from Boris's mates?

Because "his mates" are experts in their field who were offering to help the country not for profit. 🤦‍♂️

During a pandemic it isn't wise to turn down offers to help from those who know what they're talking about. Especially when they're doing so not for profit.

Of all the things to whinge about, this is scraping the barrel.

Oh for fucks sake Philip. I have suggested you try commenting on things you have knowledge of before, but I can not think of any time it has been more applicable. They might be experts in "their" field, but a vacuum cleaner or a digger is not a fucking ventilator. This was pure and simple cronyism or incompetence on a grand scale or both. Take your pick.

Pulpstar said:

Thinking the owners have "learnt their lesson" over this is as naive as I was thinking noone would ever take drugs in sport again when Ben Johnson was caught in 1988.

Nigel_Foremain said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Gallowgate said:

Endillion said:

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Scott_xP said:

Nothing to see here...

@REWearmouth: “I am first lord of the Treasury,” Boris Johnson tells James Dyson in text convo mid-pandemic about what tax Dyson… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1384762048408604674

Absolutely damn right, during a pandemic you do whatever it takes to get the medical equipment we need.

You'd rather people die than Boris does his job wouldn't you?

Those deaths would have been on James Dyson.

The absolute gall of you people defending him for putting his own (despicable) tax arrangements above people's lives.

Sums up everything that is wrong with 21st century capitalism.

You what?

If employees working in and based in Singapore had stayed in Singapore, rather than coming to the UK and working not-for-profit to save lives in the UK, then how would that have put deaths on his head?

"I refuse to come to my own country and save lives of my compatriots unless you change the law to protect my tax arrangements, Boris".

Imagine someone actually saying that.

Then imagine defending someone who said that.

Christ on a bike, there's no morals left whatsoever.

I thought these people were supposed to believe in Britain and the British people?

Imagine defending a position where you'd rather watch people die than give a tax break to the person who could save their lives.

Oh, wait. I don't have to imagine.

If Dyson employees were unwilling to come back to the UK to help the nation during a pandemic, I'm sure there were plenty of companies and employees in the UK who would have been wiling to do the work.

Why does the work have to come from Boris's mates?

Because "his mates" are experts in their field who were offering to help the country not for profit. 🤦‍♂️

During a pandemic it isn't wise to turn down offers to help from those who know what they're talking about. Especially when they're doing so not for profit.

Of all the things to whinge about, this is scraping the barrel.

Oh for fucks sake Philip. I have suggested you try commenting on things you have knowledge of before, but I can not think of any time it has been more applicable. They might be experts in "their" field, but a vacuum cleaner or a digger is not a fucking ventilator. This was pure and simple cronyism or incompetence on a grand scale or both. Take your pick.

malcolmg said:

kjh said:

malcolmg said:

kjh said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Sandpit said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Blimey, if even Kuenssberg is tweeting about it..

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1384735522556362755?s=21

Government moving mountains to get their hands on medical equipment during a global pandemic, really isn't the big story she thinks it is.

Hang on. Getting the ventilators isn't the issue. Paying tax is. Lets assume a made up number for the tax bill - £500k. Dyson could compensate the employees (and "senior individuals") for the tax paid. And add the £500k on to the contract value if he wanted to.

We *have* to have tax transparency where foreign-based companies pay due taxes in the UK. Whether they are Tory donors or not.

That isn't the issue though. Dyson wasn't attempting to profit from it. He just wanted to ensure that the company and staff would not be penalised for overstaying in the UK to achieve a positive aim.

I have no problem with this. Both Boris and Dyson were trying to do the right thing and didn't want to be caught out by rules not intended for these special circumstances.

I have campaigned for a defence against against penalties for breaking laws that have unforeseen consequences. We must of all come across 'jobs worths' who have applied rules correctly no matter how irrational they were in the circumstances.

The only criticism here is it is one rule for Dyson and another for the rest of us because there isn't a defence for the rest of us.

Typical crooked Tory parasites, would not even have cost him a day's interest on his fortune. Their greed is unbounded, never think of doing anything for good , always just greed.

Don't often disagree with you Malcolm but I do here. It is his employees who would have suffered. I guess he could have made it up, but I think it is a reasonable request. The unusual circumstances meant they would be breaking the time limits for staying in the UK potentially and not for their own benefit.

KJH, why did we need to import vacuum cleaner sellers to make medical aids. Instead of feeding cash to their chums the Tories should have funded existing medical suppliers to increase production or design new kit. We saw lots of existing suppliers who were totally ignored and yet all the money was funneled to companies like Dyson and JCB. Mechanical diggers and vacuum cleaners, WTF did they know about medical devices.

Philip_Thompson said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Endillion said:

Gallowgate said:

Endillion said:

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Scott_xP said:

Nothing to see here...

@REWearmouth: “I am first lord of the Treasury,” Boris Johnson tells James Dyson in text convo mid-pandemic about what tax Dyson… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1384762048408604674

Absolutely damn right, during a pandemic you do whatever it takes to get the medical equipment we need.

You'd rather people die than Boris does his job wouldn't you?

Those deaths would have been on James Dyson.

The absolute gall of you people defending him for putting his own (despicable) tax arrangements above people's lives.

Sums up everything that is wrong with 21st century capitalism.

You what?

If employees working in and based in Singapore had stayed in Singapore, rather than coming to the UK and working not-for-profit to save lives in the UK, then how would that have put deaths on his head?

"I refuse to come to my own country and save lives of my compatriots unless you change the law to protect my tax arrangements, Boris".

Imagine someone actually saying that.

Then imagine defending someone who said that.

Christ on a bike, there's no morals left whatsoever.

I thought these people were supposed to believe in Britain and the British people?

Imagine defending a position where you'd rather watch people die than give a tax break to the person who could save their lives.

Oh, wait. I don't have to imagine.

If Dyson employees were unwilling to come back to the UK to help the nation during a pandemic, I'm sure there were plenty of companies and employees in the UK who would have been wiling to do the work.

Why does the work have to come from Boris's mates?

Weren't we pursuing all avenues as it was? There's not exactly a glut of similar companies with the right sort of expertise, even in this country.

There is not a glut, but there were companies that actually have the expertise that were ignored so they could pretend a vacuum cleaner company could make a ventilator that was not proven it wouldn't kill people -devices need to go through regulatory processes to demonstrate efficacy in a similar way to a drug. It was fucking ignorant.

Yes because what could an engineering company with knowledge of engineering possibly know about engineering eh?

A challenge was set to all who could try and do it and many rose to the challenge. It was open to everyone and yes some companies not normally associated with medicine and more associated with vaccuums or Formula 1 took part.

If it was up to you then I suppose Formula 1 companies wouldn't have been able to take part in the challenge either?

Endillion said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Gallowgate said:

Endillion said:

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Scott_xP said:

Nothing to see here...

@REWearmouth: “I am first lord of the Treasury,” Boris Johnson tells James Dyson in text convo mid-pandemic about what tax Dyson… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1384762048408604674

Absolutely damn right, during a pandemic you do whatever it takes to get the medical equipment we need.

You'd rather people die than Boris does his job wouldn't you?

Those deaths would have been on James Dyson.

The absolute gall of you people defending him for putting his own (despicable) tax arrangements above people's lives.

Sums up everything that is wrong with 21st century capitalism.

You what?

If employees working in and based in Singapore had stayed in Singapore, rather than coming to the UK and working not-for-profit to save lives in the UK, then how would that have put deaths on his head?

"I refuse to come to my own country and save lives of my compatriots unless you change the law to protect my tax arrangements, Boris".

Imagine someone actually saying that.

Then imagine defending someone who said that.

Christ on a bike, there's no morals left whatsoever.

I thought these people were supposed to believe in Britain and the British people?

Imagine defending a position where you'd rather watch people die than give a tax break to the person who could save their lives.

Oh, wait. I don't have to imagine.

If Dyson employees were unwilling to come back to the UK to help the nation during a pandemic, I'm sure there were plenty of companies and employees in the UK who would have been wiling to do the work.

Why does the work have to come from Boris's mates?

Because "his mates" are experts in their field who were offering to help the country not for profit. 🤦‍♂️

During a pandemic it isn't wise to turn down offers to help from those who know what they're talking about. Especially when they're doing so not for profit.

Of all the things to whinge about, this is scraping the barrel.

Oh for fucks sake Philip. I have suggested you try commenting on things you have knowledge of before, but I can not think of any time it has been more applicable. They might be experts in "their" field, but a vacuum cleaner or a digger is not a fucking ventilator. This was pure and simple cronyism or incompetence on a grand scale or both. Take your pick.

A Mercedes F1 car is also not a ventilator, but that didn't seem to matter.

Nigel_Foremain said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

RochdalePioneers said:

They would have been paid had their ventilator design been fit for purpose and been ordered. As Faisal Islam reports, there seemed to be an odd leaning towards non-competent JCB and Dyson (Brexit supporting Tory donors) over the others which seems inextricable...

[I presume you mean 'inexplicable'.]

Yes, that is the valid criticism. There was absolutely nothing wrong with a temporary dispensation on the tax rules to prevent those who were trying to help being penalised with a whopping personal tax charge; after all, there were lots of temporary amendments to the rules because of the peculiar circumstances of the pandemic.

However, there does seem to have been a rather naive belief that JCB and Dyson were in a better position to design and produce medical-grade equipment in a hurry than companies with actual experience in the field. (And indeed they weren't, as it turned out).

So, nothing dodgy about this, just mismanagement.

No mismanagement since they did this scheme in parallel with other schemes. The one that worked and made this one redundant was from a Formula 1 company.

Its like the vaccine project all over again. Don't pick one horse and run with it - back them all and see which works.

To an extent, yes, and to be fair I'd cut the government quite a lot of slack on this. At the time, getting enough ventilators looked like a critical requirement, although in the end it wasn't. Nonetheless, it does seem that insufficient attention was given to the existing, experienced manufacturers.

The existing experienced manufacturers couldn't manufacture 10,000 of them in the time available.

That's why the challenge was offered to all manufacturers anywhere to get in touch. Skills in manufacturing are transferable, as Mercedes showed.

Again, Philip stop talking out of your backside. If you are referring to Mercedes McLaren, they already had a significant medical device arm to their business

Endillion said:

MaxPB said:

Endillion said:

MaxPB said:

Foss said:

London Comres out:

London Mayoral Voting Intention:

Khan (LAB): 41%
Bailey (CON): 28%
Porritt (LDM): 8%
Berry (GRN): 6%
Omilana (IND): 5%

Via
@SavantaComRes
, 13-19 Apr.

Still a firm Khan win on the second round.

That's a lot closer than I expected it to be and who the fuck is Omilana?

All I know about Omilana is that she's the only candidate who couldn't or wouldn't stump up £10k to get her profile into the info booklet that gets sent to all voters. So either she's super hard up for cash, or has zero expectations of winning and isn't really trying, or assumes none of her likely voters can read so needs to reach them in other ways.

Either way, 5% sounds... high.

Omalina is a he, as it turns out. Some YouTube meme candidate.

So he is. 3.4m subs. Probably not enough by a factor of at least 10.

Philip_Thompson said:

Gallowgate said:

Endillion said:

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Scott_xP said:

Nothing to see here...

@REWearmouth: “I am first lord of the Treasury,” Boris Johnson tells James Dyson in text convo mid-pandemic about what tax Dyson… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1384762048408604674

Absolutely damn right, during a pandemic you do whatever it takes to get the medical equipment we need.

You'd rather people die than Boris does his job wouldn't you?

Those deaths would have been on James Dyson.

The absolute gall of you people defending him for putting his own (despicable) tax arrangements above people's lives.

Sums up everything that is wrong with 21st century capitalism.

You what?

If employees working in and based in Singapore had stayed in Singapore, rather than coming to the UK and working not-for-profit to save lives in the UK, then how would that have put deaths on his head?

"I refuse to come to my own country and save lives of my compatriots unless you change the law to protect my tax arrangements, Boris".

Imagine someone actually saying that.

Then imagine defending someone who said that.

Christ on a bike, there's no morals left whatsoever.

I thought these people were supposed to believe in Britain and the British people?

Imagine defending a position where you'd rather watch people die than give a tax break to the person who could save their lives.

Oh, wait. I don't have to imagine.

If Dyson employees were unwilling to come back to the UK to help the nation during a pandemic, I'm sure there were plenty of companies and employees in the UK who would have been wiling to do the work.

Why does the work have to come from Boris's mates?

Because "his mates" are experts in their field who were offering to help the country not for profit. 🤦‍♂️

During a pandemic it isn't wise to turn down offers to help from those who know what they're talking about. Especially when they're doing so not for profit.

Of all the things to whinge about, this is scraping the barrel.

Endillion said:

MaxPB said:

Endillion said:

MaxPB said:

Foss said:

London Comres out:

London Mayoral Voting Intention:

Khan (LAB): 41%
Bailey (CON): 28%
Porritt (LDM): 8%
Berry (GRN): 6%
Omilana (IND): 5%

Via
@SavantaComRes
, 13-19 Apr.

Still a firm Khan win on the second round.

That's a lot closer than I expected it to be and who the fuck is Omilana?

All I know about Omilana is that she's the only candidate who couldn't or wouldn't stump up £10k to get her profile into the info booklet that gets sent to all voters. So either she's super hard up for cash, or has zero expectations of winning and isn't really trying, or assumes none of her likely voters can read so needs to reach them in other ways.

Either way, 5% sounds... high.

Omalina is a he, as it turns out. Some YouTube meme candidate.

So he is. 3.4m subs. Probably not enough by a factor of at least 10.

Gallowgate said:

Sandpit said:

malcolmg said:

kjh said:

malcolmg said:

kjh said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Sandpit said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Blimey, if even Kuenssberg is tweeting about it..

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1384735522556362755?s=21

Government moving mountains to get their hands on medical equipment during a global pandemic, really isn't the big story she thinks it is.

Hang on. Getting the ventilators isn't the issue. Paying tax is. Lets assume a made up number for the tax bill - £500k. Dyson could compensate the employees (and "senior individuals") for the tax paid. And add the £500k on to the contract value if he wanted to.

We *have* to have tax transparency where foreign-based companies pay due taxes in the UK. Whether they are Tory donors or not.

That isn't the issue though. Dyson wasn't attempting to profit from it. He just wanted to ensure that the company and staff would not be penalised for overstaying in the UK to achieve a positive aim.

I have no problem with this. Both Boris and Dyson were trying to do the right thing and didn't want to be caught out by rules not intended for these special circumstances.

I have campaigned for a defence against against penalties for breaking laws that have unforeseen consequences. We must of all come across 'jobs worths' who have applied rules correctly no matter how irrational they were in the circumstances.

The only criticism here is it is one rule for Dyson and another for the rest of us because there isn't a defence for the rest of us.

Typical crooked Tory parasites, would not even have cost him a day's interest on his fortune. Their greed is unbounded, never think of doing anything for good , always just greed.

Don't often disagree with you Malcolm but I do here. It is his employees who would have suffered. I guess he could have made it up, but I think it is a reasonable request. The unusual circumstances meant they would be breaking the time limits for staying in the UK potentially and not for their own benefit.

KJH, why did we need to import vacuum cleaner sellers to make medical aids. Instead of feeding cash to their chums the Tories should have funded existing medical suppliers to increase production or design new kit. We saw lots of existing suppliers who were totally ignored and yet all the money was funneled to companies like Dyson and JCB. Mechanical diggers and vacuum cleaners, WTF did they know about medical devices.

Err, because every available medical supplier was already working flat out and couldn't keep up with demand?

The early stages of the pandemic needed huge resources in complex design and manufacturing thrown at the problem, and dozens of engineering companies stepped up, in many cases at their own expense. Well done to all of them.

This is exactly my point. Those who stepped up without promise of award or indemnity should be commended. That is patriotism and that is caring for your community.

Those who seemingly were only willing to help if their tax exemption status was protected, well I have nothing but contempt.

Especially considering the monster tax payer bill we all have to pay. You have to pay a bit more tax? Tough sh*t, welcome to the future.

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Scott_xP said:

Nothing to see here...

@REWearmouth: “I am first lord of the Treasury,” Boris Johnson tells James Dyson in text convo mid-pandemic about what tax Dyson… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1384762048408604674

Absolutely damn right, during a pandemic you do whatever it takes to get the medical equipment we need.

You'd rather people die than Boris does his job wouldn't you?

Those deaths would have been on James Dyson.

The absolute gall of you people defending him for putting his own (despicable) tax arrangements above people's lives.

Sums up everything that is wrong with 21st century capitalism.

You what?

If employees working in and based in Singapore had stayed in Singapore, rather than coming to the UK and working not-for-profit to save lives in the UK, then how would that have put deaths on his head?

"I refuse to come to my own country and save lives of my compatriots unless you change the law to protect my tax arrangements, Boris".

Imagine someone actually saying that.

Then imagine defending someone who said that.

Christ on a bike, there's no morals left whatsoever.

I thought these people were supposed to believe in Britain and the British people?

Philip_Thompson said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Gallowgate said:

Endillion said:

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Scott_xP said:

Nothing to see here...

@REWearmouth: “I am first lord of the Treasury,” Boris Johnson tells James Dyson in text convo mid-pandemic about what tax Dyson… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1384762048408604674

Absolutely damn right, during a pandemic you do whatever it takes to get the medical equipment we need.

You'd rather people die than Boris does his job wouldn't you?

Those deaths would have been on James Dyson.

The absolute gall of you people defending him for putting his own (despicable) tax arrangements above people's lives.

Sums up everything that is wrong with 21st century capitalism.

You what?

If employees working in and based in Singapore had stayed in Singapore, rather than coming to the UK and working not-for-profit to save lives in the UK, then how would that have put deaths on his head?

"I refuse to come to my own country and save lives of my compatriots unless you change the law to protect my tax arrangements, Boris".

Imagine someone actually saying that.

Then imagine defending someone who said that.

Christ on a bike, there's no morals left whatsoever.

I thought these people were supposed to believe in Britain and the British people?

Imagine defending a position where you'd rather watch people die than give a tax break to the person who could save their lives.

Oh, wait. I don't have to imagine.

If Dyson employees were unwilling to come back to the UK to help the nation during a pandemic, I'm sure there were plenty of companies and employees in the UK who would have been wiling to do the work.

Why does the work have to come from Boris's mates?

Because "his mates" are experts in their field who were offering to help the country not for profit. 🤦‍♂️

During a pandemic it isn't wise to turn down offers to help from those who know what they're talking about. Especially when they're doing so not for profit.

Of all the things to whinge about, this is scraping the barrel.

Oh for fucks sake Philip. I have suggested you try commenting on things you have knowledge of before, but I can not think of any time it has been more applicable. They might be experts in "their" field, but a vacuum cleaner or a digger is not a fucking ventilator. This was pure and simple cronyism or incompetence on a grand scale or both. Take your pick.

No fucking shit Sherlock. A vacuum cleaner is not a fucking ventilator, nobody said otherwise.

Guess what you fucking idiot, a fucking Formula 1 race car isn't a fucking venilator either.

Get a fucking grip you fucking fuckity fucky fool.

Do we really need such strong fucking language too?

Sandpit said:

RochdalePioneers said:

kjh said:

I think you are wrong here RP just for a change. Remember I am a LD not a Tory so I can't be put in that bracket.

Having said that I do accept your point re some Tories reaction. To Charles' credit he engaged in debate with you and I agree with him. Mark however just resorted to the frequent argument that Labour are at it as well, as if that is any sort of defence.

Perhaps - wouldn't be the first time I was wrong. I don't think that I am though for two reasons:
1 Dyson had no problem paying the £20m cost in his failed ventilator design "from his own deep pockets". SO a small amount to compensate staff / him for tax was well within the ability of his "deep pockets" to cover
2 After last week's lobbying scandal, Downing Street put it out that the PM was "shocked" over the behavious of civil servants. Yet here he is directly caught in a scandal where the rules governing how ministers behave - transparent, no conflict of interest, out in the open - has been breached.

Politically nothing will happen because he is untouchable. It doesn't make the open sewer flowing through government right though.

The situation was as follows, the numbers may of course be slightly different:

1. British engineer living abroad gets paid £1m a year by Dyson in salary and bonuses.
2. Dyson volunteers engineer to come to UK for £300 a day, to work on an emergency government project.
3. Engineer exposes himself to personal tax liability of £440k (income tax on the £1m) if he stays in UK for more than 90 days.
4. Government agrees to relax the 90 day rule because global pandemic.

Nemtynakht said:

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Scott_xP said:

Nothing to see here...

@REWearmouth: “I am first lord of the Treasury,” Boris Johnson tells James Dyson in text convo mid-pandemic about what tax Dyson… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1384762048408604674

Absolutely damn right, during a pandemic you do whatever it takes to get the medical equipment we need.

You'd rather people die than Boris does his job wouldn't you?

Those deaths would have been on James Dyson.

The absolute gall of you people defending him for putting his own (despicable) tax arrangements above people's lives.

Sums up everything that is wrong with 21st century capitalism.

You what?

If employees working in and based in Singapore had stayed in Singapore, rather than coming to the UK and working not-for-profit to save lives in the UK, then how would that have put deaths on his head?

"I refuse to come to my own country and save lives of my compatriots unless you change the law to protect my tax arrangements, Boris".

Imagine someone actually saying that.

Then imagine defending someone who said that.

Christ on a bike, there's no morals left whatsoever.

I thought these people were supposed to believe in Britain and the British people?

Who said those helping were British? You are not helping compatriots if not and being sent by your boss at great financial detriment. Help a comrade out and support him against this injustice

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Gallowgate said:

Sandpit said:

malcolmg said:

kjh said:

malcolmg said:

kjh said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Sandpit said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Blimey, if even Kuenssberg is tweeting about it..

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1384735522556362755?s=21

Government moving mountains to get their hands on medical equipment during a global pandemic, really isn't the big story she thinks it is.

Hang on. Getting the ventilators isn't the issue. Paying tax is. Lets assume a made up number for the tax bill - £500k. Dyson could compensate the employees (and "senior individuals") for the tax paid. And add the £500k on to the contract value if he wanted to.

We *have* to have tax transparency where foreign-based companies pay due taxes in the UK. Whether they are Tory donors or not.

That isn't the issue though. Dyson wasn't attempting to profit from it. He just wanted to ensure that the company and staff would not be penalised for overstaying in the UK to achieve a positive aim.

I have no problem with this. Both Boris and Dyson were trying to do the right thing and didn't want to be caught out by rules not intended for these special circumstances.

I have campaigned for a defence against against penalties for breaking laws that have unforeseen consequences. We must of all come across 'jobs worths' who have applied rules correctly no matter how irrational they were in the circumstances.

The only criticism here is it is one rule for Dyson and another for the rest of us because there isn't a defence for the rest of us.

Typical crooked Tory parasites, would not even have cost him a day's interest on his fortune. Their greed is unbounded, never think of doing anything for good , always just greed.

Don't often disagree with you Malcolm but I do here. It is his employees who would have suffered. I guess he could have made it up, but I think it is a reasonable request. The unusual circumstances meant they would be breaking the time limits for staying in the UK potentially and not for their own benefit.

KJH, why did we need to import vacuum cleaner sellers to make medical aids. Instead of feeding cash to their chums the Tories should have funded existing medical suppliers to increase production or design new kit. We saw lots of existing suppliers who were totally ignored and yet all the money was funneled to companies like Dyson and JCB. Mechanical diggers and vacuum cleaners, WTF did they know about medical devices.

Err, because every available medical supplier was already working flat out and couldn't keep up with demand?

The early stages of the pandemic needed huge resources in complex design and manufacturing thrown at the problem, and dozens of engineering companies stepped up, in many cases at their own expense. Well done to all of them.

This is exactly my point. Those who stepped up without promise of award or indemnity should be commended. That is patriotism and that is caring for your community.

Those who seemingly were only willing to help if their tax exemption status was protected, well I have nothing but contempt.

Especially considering the monster tax payer bill we all have to pay. You have to pay a bit more tax? Tough sh*t, welcome to the future.

So the world's best and brightest stay in Singapore or go to the USA or help any of many other nations instead. And we don't get the help we need and we don't get a single penny in extra tax either.

Great job there! Way to cut off your nose to spite your face. No wonder you voted for Corbyn, I thought you'd learnt some lessons but nothing has changed. 🤦🏻‍♂️

If Dyson was willing to abandon his country in a time of need then that says a lot about him.

So much for patriotism or believing in Britain.

Philip_Thompson said:

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Gallowgate said:

Sandpit said:

malcolmg said:

kjh said:

malcolmg said:

kjh said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Sandpit said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Blimey, if even Kuenssberg is tweeting about it..

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1384735522556362755?s=21

Government moving mountains to get their hands on medical equipment during a global pandemic, really isn't the big story she thinks it is.

Hang on. Getting the ventilators isn't the issue. Paying tax is. Lets assume a made up number for the tax bill - £500k. Dyson could compensate the employees (and "senior individuals") for the tax paid. And add the £500k on to the contract value if he wanted to.

We *have* to have tax transparency where foreign-based companies pay due taxes in the UK. Whether they are Tory donors or not.

That isn't the issue though. Dyson wasn't attempting to profit from it. He just wanted to ensure that the company and staff would not be penalised for overstaying in the UK to achieve a positive aim.

I have no problem with this. Both Boris and Dyson were trying to do the right thing and didn't want to be caught out by rules not intended for these special circumstances.

I have campaigned for a defence against against penalties for breaking laws that have unforeseen consequences. We must of all come across 'jobs worths' who have applied rules correctly no matter how irrational they were in the circumstances.

The only criticism here is it is one rule for Dyson and another for the rest of us because there isn't a defence for the rest of us.

Typical crooked Tory parasites, would not even have cost him a day's interest on his fortune. Their greed is unbounded, never think of doing anything for good , always just greed.

Don't often disagree with you Malcolm but I do here. It is his employees who would have suffered. I guess he could have made it up, but I think it is a reasonable request. The unusual circumstances meant they would be breaking the time limits for staying in the UK potentially and not for their own benefit.

KJH, why did we need to import vacuum cleaner sellers to make medical aids. Instead of feeding cash to their chums the Tories should have funded existing medical suppliers to increase production or design new kit. We saw lots of existing suppliers who were totally ignored and yet all the money was funneled to companies like Dyson and JCB. Mechanical diggers and vacuum cleaners, WTF did they know about medical devices.

Err, because every available medical supplier was already working flat out and couldn't keep up with demand?

The early stages of the pandemic needed huge resources in complex design and manufacturing thrown at the problem, and dozens of engineering companies stepped up, in many cases at their own expense. Well done to all of them.

This is exactly my point. Those who stepped up without promise of award or indemnity should be commended. That is patriotism and that is caring for your community.

Those who seemingly were only willing to help if their tax exemption status was protected, well I have nothing but contempt.

Especially considering the monster tax payer bill we all have to pay. You have to pay a bit more tax? Tough sh*t, welcome to the future.

So the world's best and brightest stay in Singapore or go to the USA or help any of many other nations instead. And we don't get the help we need and we don't get a single penny in extra tax either.

Great job there! Way to cut off your nose to spite your face. No wonder you voted for Corbyn, I thought you'd learnt some lessons but nothing has changed. 🤦🏻‍♂️

If Dyson was willing to abandon his country in a time of need then that says a lot about him.

So much for patriotism or believing in Britain.

Dyson is not his employees.

Philip_Thompson said:

eek said:

Philip_Thompson said:

LostPassword said:

Pulpstar said:

Thinking the owners have "learnt their lesson" over this is as naive as I was thinking noone would ever take drugs in sport again when Ben Johnson was caught in 1988.

If any lessons have been learnt it will be in how not to bungle it. Things they might have done differently to get away with it would be:

Get FIFA's support - make it a world club competition at the outset, perhaps - so that the player's wouldn't be banned from World Cups.

Plan it as an all-in breakaway, not depending on domestic leagues keeping them in. If you're undermining other organisations then you have to go all the way. Half measures won't do.

Opposite of the latter one. Keep the pyramid.

Do a breakaway but with the top clubs qualifying each year still. So that money and who controls the competition is the difference, not qualification.

So West Ham etc can still qualify for it. That was the mistake.

That was the screw up - the founding members should have got shares / guaranteed cash (would have been unfair but meh) but no guaranteed right to play.

I wouldn't even go as far as shares/guaranteed cash. No guarantees at all but the money raised goes to the clubs who qualify instead of UEFA.

The clubs would have no guarantees then but would still be tens if not hundreds of millions better off per annum.

Cyclefree said:

Sandpit said:

RochdalePioneers said:

kjh said:

I think you are wrong here RP just for a change. Remember I am a LD not a Tory so I can't be put in that bracket.

Having said that I do accept your point re some Tories reaction. To Charles' credit he engaged in debate with you and I agree with him. Mark however just resorted to the frequent argument that Labour are at it as well, as if that is any sort of defence.

Perhaps - wouldn't be the first time I was wrong. I don't think that I am though for two reasons:
1 Dyson had no problem paying the £20m cost in his failed ventilator design "from his own deep pockets". SO a small amount to compensate staff / him for tax was well within the ability of his "deep pockets" to cover
2 After last week's lobbying scandal, Downing Street put it out that the PM was "shocked" over the behavious of civil servants. Yet here he is directly caught in a scandal where the rules governing how ministers behave - transparent, no conflict of interest, out in the open - has been breached.

Politically nothing will happen because he is untouchable. It doesn't make the open sewer flowing through government right though.

The situation was as follows, the numbers may of course be slightly different:

1. British engineer living abroad gets paid £1m a year by Dyson in salary and bonuses.
2. Dyson volunteers engineer to come to UK for £300 a day, to work on an emergency government project.
3. Engineer exposes himself to personal tax liability of £440k (income tax on the £1m) if he stays in UK for more than 90 days.
4. Government agrees to relax the 90 day rule because global pandemic.

Answer: engineers do as much of the work as possible remotely and / or ensure that they do not work in the U.K. for more than 90 days. Result: no additional tax liability.

Two genuine questions:-

1. Were Dyson offering to do the work for free or at very reduced rates?
2. Was it actually necessary for the engineers to base themselves in the U.K. for more than 90 days for this project?

Malmesbury said:

Gallowgate said:

In fact, if Dyson's employees payed more tax as a result of coming back to Britain (oh the humanity), then Dyson was free to top-up their remuneration as a COVID bonus to make up for it.

But of course it's up to the British tax payer to ensure that no loss was suffered whatosever.

What on earth happened to charity? What on earth happened to civic duty?

Shameless.

I think there is an issue with an employer trying to pay an employees personal tax - it becomes a benefit in kind, and itself is taxable? Creates a problematic loop, IIRC?

Any tax experts?

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Gallowgate said:

Sandpit said:

malcolmg said:

kjh said:

malcolmg said:

kjh said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Sandpit said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Blimey, if even Kuenssberg is tweeting about it..

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1384735522556362755?s=21

Government moving mountains to get their hands on medical equipment during a global pandemic, really isn't the big story she thinks it is.

Hang on. Getting the ventilators isn't the issue. Paying tax is. Lets assume a made up number for the tax bill - £500k. Dyson could compensate the employees (and "senior individuals") for the tax paid. And add the £500k on to the contract value if he wanted to.

We *have* to have tax transparency where foreign-based companies pay due taxes in the UK. Whether they are Tory donors or not.

That isn't the issue though. Dyson wasn't attempting to profit from it. He just wanted to ensure that the company and staff would not be penalised for overstaying in the UK to achieve a positive aim.

I have no problem with this. Both Boris and Dyson were trying to do the right thing and didn't want to be caught out by rules not intended for these special circumstances.

I have campaigned for a defence against against penalties for breaking laws that have unforeseen consequences. We must of all come across 'jobs worths' who have applied rules correctly no matter how irrational they were in the circumstances.

The only criticism here is it is one rule for Dyson and another for the rest of us because there isn't a defence for the rest of us.

Typical crooked Tory parasites, would not even have cost him a day's interest on his fortune. Their greed is unbounded, never think of doing anything for good , always just greed.

Don't often disagree with you Malcolm but I do here. It is his employees who would have suffered. I guess he could have made it up, but I think it is a reasonable request. The unusual circumstances meant they would be breaking the time limits for staying in the UK potentially and not for their own benefit.

KJH, why did we need to import vacuum cleaner sellers to make medical aids. Instead of feeding cash to their chums the Tories should have funded existing medical suppliers to increase production or design new kit. We saw lots of existing suppliers who were totally ignored and yet all the money was funneled to companies like Dyson and JCB. Mechanical diggers and vacuum cleaners, WTF did they know about medical devices.

Err, because every available medical supplier was already working flat out and couldn't keep up with demand?

The early stages of the pandemic needed huge resources in complex design and manufacturing thrown at the problem, and dozens of engineering companies stepped up, in many cases at their own expense. Well done to all of them.

This is exactly my point. Those who stepped up without promise of award or indemnity should be commended. That is patriotism and that is caring for your community.

Those who seemingly were only willing to help if their tax exemption status was protected, well I have nothing but contempt.

Especially considering the monster tax payer bill we all have to pay. You have to pay a bit more tax? Tough sh*t, welcome to the future.

So the world's best and brightest stay in Singapore or go to the USA or help any of many other nations instead. And we don't get the help we need and we don't get a single penny in extra tax either.

Great job there! Way to cut off your nose to spite your face. No wonder you voted for Corbyn, I thought you'd learnt some lessons but nothing has changed. 🤦🏻‍♂️

If Dyson was willing to abandon his country in a time of need then that says a lot about him.

So much for patriotism or believing in Britain.

Dyson is not his employees.

I'm not sure which part of "Dyson could have grossed up his employees' salaries to account for any additional tax liability" you do not understand.

Nigel_Foremain said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

RochdalePioneers said:

They would have been paid had their ventilator design been fit for purpose and been ordered. As Faisal Islam reports, there seemed to be an odd leaning towards non-competent JCB and Dyson (Brexit supporting Tory donors) over the others which seems inextricable...

[I presume you mean 'inexplicable'.]

Yes, that is the valid criticism. There was absolutely nothing wrong with a temporary dispensation on the tax rules to prevent those who were trying to help being penalised with a whopping personal tax charge; after all, there were lots of temporary amendments to the rules because of the peculiar circumstances of the pandemic.

However, there does seem to have been a rather naive belief that JCB and Dyson were in a better position to design and produce medical-grade equipment in a hurry than companies with actual experience in the field. (And indeed they weren't, as it turned out).

So, nothing dodgy about this, just mismanagement.

No mismanagement since they did this scheme in parallel with other schemes. The one that worked and made this one redundant was from a Formula 1 company.

Its like the vaccine project all over again. Don't pick one horse and run with it - back them all and see which works.

To an extent, yes, and to be fair I'd cut the government quite a lot of slack on this. At the time, getting enough ventilators looked like a critical requirement, although in the end it wasn't. Nonetheless, it does seem that insufficient attention was given to the existing, experienced manufacturers.

The existing experienced manufacturers couldn't manufacture 10,000 of them in the time available.

That's why the challenge was offered to all manufacturers anywhere to get in touch. Skills in manufacturing are transferable, as Mercedes showed.

Again, Philip stop talking out of your backside. If you are referring to Mercedes McLaren, they already had a significant medical device arm to their business

Cyclefree said:

Sandpit said:

RochdalePioneers said:

kjh said:

I think you are wrong here RP just for a change. Remember I am a LD not a Tory so I can't be put in that bracket.

Having said that I do accept your point re some Tories reaction. To Charles' credit he engaged in debate with you and I agree with him. Mark however just resorted to the frequent argument that Labour are at it as well, as if that is any sort of defence.

Perhaps - wouldn't be the first time I was wrong. I don't think that I am though for two reasons:
1 Dyson had no problem paying the £20m cost in his failed ventilator design "from his own deep pockets". SO a small amount to compensate staff / him for tax was well within the ability of his "deep pockets" to cover
2 After last week's lobbying scandal, Downing Street put it out that the PM was "shocked" over the behavious of civil servants. Yet here he is directly caught in a scandal where the rules governing how ministers behave - transparent, no conflict of interest, out in the open - has been breached.

Politically nothing will happen because he is untouchable. It doesn't make the open sewer flowing through government right though.

The situation was as follows, the numbers may of course be slightly different:

1. British engineer living abroad gets paid £1m a year by Dyson in salary and bonuses.
2. Dyson volunteers engineer to come to UK for £300 a day, to work on an emergency government project.
3. Engineer exposes himself to personal tax liability of £440k (income tax on the £1m) if he stays in UK for more than 90 days.
4. Government agrees to relax the 90 day rule because global pandemic.

Answer: engineers do as much of the work as possible remotely and / or ensure that they do not work in the U.K. for more than 90 days. Result: no additional tax liability.

Two genuine questions:-

1. Were Dyson offering to do the work for free or at very reduced rates?
2. Was it actually necessary for the engineers to base themselves in the U.K. for more than 90 days for this project?

Philip_Thompson said:

eek said:

Philip_Thompson said:

LostPassword said:

Pulpstar said:

Thinking the owners have "learnt their lesson" over this is as naive as I was thinking noone would ever take drugs in sport again when Ben Johnson was caught in 1988.

If any lessons have been learnt it will be in how not to bungle it. Things they might have done differently to get away with it would be:

Get FIFA's support - make it a world club competition at the outset, perhaps - so that the player's wouldn't be banned from World Cups.

Plan it as an all-in breakaway, not depending on domestic leagues keeping them in. If you're undermining other organisations then you have to go all the way. Half measures won't do.

Opposite of the latter one. Keep the pyramid.

Do a breakaway but with the top clubs qualifying each year still. So that money and who controls the competition is the difference, not qualification.

So West Ham etc can still qualify for it. That was the mistake.

That was the screw up - the founding members should have got shares / guaranteed cash (would have been unfair but meh) but no guaranteed right to play.

I wouldn't even go as far as shares/guaranteed cash. No guarantees at all but the money raised goes to the clubs who qualify instead of UEFA.

The clubs would have no guarantees then but would still be tens if not hundreds of millions better off per annum.

Possibly follow the Premier League model of parachute payments too.

eek said:

Philip_Thompson said:

eek said:

Philip_Thompson said:

LostPassword said:

Pulpstar said:

Thinking the owners have "learnt their lesson" over this is as naive as I was thinking noone would ever take drugs in sport again when Ben Johnson was caught in 1988.

If any lessons have been learnt it will be in how not to bungle it. Things they might have done differently to get away with it would be:

Get FIFA's support - make it a world club competition at the outset, perhaps - so that the player's wouldn't be banned from World Cups.

Plan it as an all-in breakaway, not depending on domestic leagues keeping them in. If you're undermining other organisations then you have to go all the way. Half measures won't do.

Opposite of the latter one. Keep the pyramid.

Do a breakaway but with the top clubs qualifying each year still. So that money and who controls the competition is the difference, not qualification.

So West Ham etc can still qualify for it. That was the mistake.

That was the screw up - the founding members should have got shares / guaranteed cash (would have been unfair but meh) but no guaranteed right to play.

I wouldn't even go as far as shares/guaranteed cash. No guarantees at all but the money raised goes to the clubs who qualify instead of UEFA.

The clubs would have no guarantees then but would still be tens if not hundreds of millions better off per annum.

I was talking about the original ESL plan which had founding members getting shares / cash. You could (almost) justify that but you couldn't justify the guaranteed entry bit.

Now having screwed things up so badly UEFA will keep control of the Champions league money pot for the next 10 years for won't of complete misunderstanding of what European football supporters expect.

Carnyx said:

Fysics_Teacher said:

moonshine said:

eek said:

MarqueeMark said:

moonshine said:

Well the super league was a fun diversion for a few days.

Meanwhile in America...

https://youtu.be/SKsLK_Na7iw

News bulletin from NBC last week, further softening up of the US public for the biggest story of all time.

paging @Leon

It is going to be an unimaginably massive story - but based on 99.9999% speculation. 24 hour rolling news will be mental. "Where is this life in the Universe? Are they more like Alien - or Predator? What will this news do to house prices? We go over now to Meghan Markle for an in-depth interview on what it means for the Royal family....."

We are going to lose or shit. Be a good time to bury bad news though...

Things we can't quite explain isn't really prove of aliens from elsewhere...

That would require metals or compounds no one has a clue how to make or organic matter that has little to do with us.

If you know of a metal or compound that can withstand 150Gs in earth’s atmosphere, then there’s a world of materials scientists that would like to hear from you.

I have some on my desk: iron meteorites do that all the time.

Do meteorites really decelerate at that level without going poot?

noneoftheabove said:

Philip_Thompson said:

eek said:

Philip_Thompson said:

LostPassword said:

Pulpstar said:

Thinking the owners have "learnt their lesson" over this is as naive as I was thinking noone would ever take drugs in sport again when Ben Johnson was caught in 1988.

If any lessons have been learnt it will be in how not to bungle it. Things they might have done differently to get away with it would be:

Get FIFA's support - make it a world club competition at the outset, perhaps - so that the player's wouldn't be banned from World Cups.

Plan it as an all-in breakaway, not depending on domestic leagues keeping them in. If you're undermining other organisations then you have to go all the way. Half measures won't do.

Opposite of the latter one. Keep the pyramid.

Do a breakaway but with the top clubs qualifying each year still. So that money and who controls the competition is the difference, not qualification.

So West Ham etc can still qualify for it. That was the mistake.

That was the screw up - the founding members should have got shares / guaranteed cash (would have been unfair but meh) but no guaranteed right to play.

I wouldn't even go as far as shares/guaranteed cash. No guarantees at all but the money raised goes to the clubs who qualify instead of UEFA.

The clubs would have no guarantees then but would still be tens if not hundreds of millions better off per annum.

Possibly follow the Premier League model of parachute payments too.

Who on earth pays the referees, match officials, marketing staff, logistics people if UEFA dont get any of the income?

MaxPB said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Endillion said:

Gallowgate said:

Endillion said:

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Scott_xP said:

Nothing to see here...

@REWearmouth: “I am first lord of the Treasury,” Boris Johnson tells James Dyson in text convo mid-pandemic about what tax Dyson… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1384762048408604674

Absolutely damn right, during a pandemic you do whatever it takes to get the medical equipment we need.

You'd rather people die than Boris does his job wouldn't you?

Those deaths would have been on James Dyson.

The absolute gall of you people defending him for putting his own (despicable) tax arrangements above people's lives.

Sums up everything that is wrong with 21st century capitalism.

You what?

If employees working in and based in Singapore had stayed in Singapore, rather than coming to the UK and working not-for-profit to save lives in the UK, then how would that have put deaths on his head?

"I refuse to come to my own country and save lives of my compatriots unless you change the law to protect my tax arrangements, Boris".

Imagine someone actually saying that.

Then imagine defending someone who said that.

Christ on a bike, there's no morals left whatsoever.

I thought these people were supposed to believe in Britain and the British people?

Imagine defending a position where you'd rather watch people die than give a tax break to the person who could save their lives.

Oh, wait. I don't have to imagine.

If Dyson employees were unwilling to come back to the UK to help the nation during a pandemic, I'm sure there were plenty of companies and employees in the UK who would have been wiling to do the work.

Why does the work have to come from Boris's mates?

Weren't we pursuing all avenues as it was? There's not exactly a glut of similar companies with the right sort of expertise, even in this country.

There is not a glut, but there were companies that actually have the expertise that were ignored so they could pretend a vacuum cleaner company could make a ventilator that was not proven it wouldn't kill people -devices need to go through regulatory processes to demonstrate efficacy in a similar way to a drug. It was fucking ignorant.

Yes because what could an engineering company with knowledge of engineering possibly know about engineering eh?

A challenge was set to all who could try and do it and many rose to the challenge. It was open to everyone and yes some companies not normally associated with medicine and more associated with vaccuums or Formula 1 took part.

If it was up to you then I suppose Formula 1 companies wouldn't have been able to take part in the challenge either?

I refer to the answer I have just now given on your other post. You are even more ignorant in this area than most other areas you post on, and that really is saying something.

McLaren have a significant medical device consultancy business that long predated Covid. They were an obvious choice because they knew about highly regulated medical grade products. They are not a vacuum cleaner company.

It wasn't McLaren that did it, it was Mercedes who have no medical division.