We shouldn't be surprised by the increase in British willingness to get vaccinated. There's nothing as effective as stuffing it to the EU for encouraging Brits to do something.
You may be joking but I really don't think most British people care that much about the EU. That was part of the problem.
To be fair I post here and I’m therefore politically engaged, but if asked unprompted I’m not sure I’d remember Dodds was Shadow CX. I have to look up the other Shadow Ministers every time.
I don't know how many other people can name, but off the top of my head I know:
Starmer: leader Rayner: deputy Dodds: shadow chancellor Nandy: shadow foreign sec A Welsh MP called Nick with a double-barrelled surname: shadow home sec Ashworth: health Lammy: justice EdM: business Reeves: shadow Gove
And after that I struggle. I also know that Kate Green shadows Williamson, but I can only remember that because I caught reports about her reply to his statement the other day, and I think Thornberry is still in the shadow cabinet but I don't know what her brief is. Still, such is life for Opposition MPs, I suppose.
Are there prominent figures within the Scottish Independence movement who actually don't want their main policy and have been getting a bit concerned about its apparent inevitability?
Question. Covid-19. What is likely to happen next winter? What level of problems will we face with Covid-19? Are we likely to have large number of people in hospital being treated for Covid-19? Will there still be face masks, social distancing etc?
I would not be surprised if we have top up vaccinations in the autumn, but that there is a push for use of face masks without it being law, on the basis that it might well cut down on the annual flu anyway.
That mustn't happen IMO. No facemasks for normal life, and flu is part of normal life.
I wouldn't worry about it too much. I'm 100% in support of facemasks for as long as the pandemic is active, but I'll be damned if I put one on again once everyone's been fully jabbed. Until the next pandemic, obviously...
Question. Covid-19. What is likely to happen next winter? What level of problems will we face with Covid-19? Are we likely to have large number of people in hospital being treated for Covid-19? Will there still be face masks, social distancing etc?
I would not be surprised if we have top up vaccinations in the autumn, but that there is a push for use of face masks without it being law, on the basis that it might well cut down on the annual flu anyway.
I think voluntary face masks, social distancing, and hand sanitiser are here to stay.
One of the interesting things about the excess deaths graphs at https://www.ft.com/content/a2901ce8-5eb7-4633-b89c-cbdf5b386938 is that the UK is unusual on having such a sharp spike in the baseline in January-ish. (It flatters our excess deaths data a bit more right now, I imagine.) I assume that's flu, and if improved hygiene can squash that, it's surely a good thing.
Interesting anecdote from today's Guernsey briefing - they had been told to expect 20% wastage in the vaccine roll out - the actual figure is 0.5% - which was one 10ml vial that was a bit cloudy they decided to ditch in the first 20,000 vaccinations. Like many places in the UK they have people on standby to get any spare doses at the end of the day - they are also routinely getting an extra dose out of each vial.
I see the Guardian says the Begum ruling is “controversial”
This is one of those special Guardian word-definitions, where “controversial” means “it dismays three people in Islington”
The view of the court about the respect to be given to the views and judgment of Ministers is something of a throw back and may cause ripples. It is not easy to reconcile that view with the unanimous view of the Court in the Prorogation case, to take an example.
The court over-reached with the prorogation case; this time they are exactly right. These difficult executive decisions must be made by people who are democratically accountable
These two cases are easily reconciled.
In both cases the court found it had the power to intervene. It took the view that it should intervene in the prorogation case because the government was taking the piss (which it was): the government's refusal to give any account under oath for its actions may well have proven fatal to its case. You seem to have forgotten that at the time of the purported prorogation Britain had a Prime Minister who had not been elected at a general election, who did not command a majority in Parliament and indeed had not won a vote in Parliament pursuing a policy that had not been put before the British public and using prorogation as a tool to impose that irreversibly.
In the present case it took the view that the government had acted within the wide latitude granted to governments when taking decisions. Which, given that the Home Secretary was exercising statutory powers given to them in an extreme case, is not all that surprising.
The main consequence of the prorogation case was political. The public decided, unlike in the USA, that they were AOK with self-coups. As a result Britain now has a government with a light attachment to democracy and an extreme aversion to any form of accountability enthusiastically supported by a self-radicalised posse who are quite willing to overlook anything it does, up to and including the avoidable deaths of tens of thousands.
Nice example of ensuring people wont pay attention to your solidly put points because you wanted to indulge in unrelated theatrical condemnation.
Now you can pretend to be affronted when people ignore your good first paras, even though that was presumably your intention and you want Brexiteers to rage at you so you can respond in turn.
Well, each of us has fun in their own way i suppose.
The last bit is the important bit. Tens of thousands of people have died avoidable deaths, but the government's supporters simply don't think that's as important as supporting the government.
I am staggered at the self-degradation of these partisans.
Pot meet kettle. I assume the Italians, French, Germans, Americans (need I go on?) who died were all unavoidable deaths? Or maybe. just maybe there is a nasty virus in worldwide circulation causing epic problems to all governments. Ours has not performed well, I think most would accept that, but they are not the only ones to struggle in this pandemic. At least we have one of the most open and trustworthy reporting systems. How many Chinese died in Wuhan province? How many Spaniards have died (unclear reporting, and a suggestion that that true figure is far higher than the official one? I get that you hate Brexit and the current government, but you are one of the most blinkered on this site. You are an intelligent man, but your own lack of self awareness is stark.
Britain has done exceptionally badly, in the bottommost tier of countries in its response to Covid-19. Only the most crazed zealots would suggest otherwise.
Sadly, many of those crazed zealots infest this site. Here's the sort of problem that they're determined to avoid discussing:
I raised this this morning but the hypothesis of that comment that this is something that could have been avoided is at best unproven. As far as we can tell what happened was that Kent variant took a much greater hold in this country than elsewhere, it was far more infectious and possibly marginally more dangerous.
Your default assumption that this was a consequence of government incompetence or ineptitude may prove to be correct but it is an assumption. The UK has the best genomic analysis in the world. By that time (December) it had amongst the best test and trace and was one of the very highest levels of testing. And yet we were still caught with our trousers down. Incompetence? Maybe but it is possible that we did our very best and were simply unlucky.
My memory is good enough to remember early December, when cases in Britain were obviously rising and the government was resisting tightening up. I remember the Prime Minister mocking the Leader of the Opposition for suggesting the same thing.
It was obvious what was happening at the time. And untold thousands paid with their lives because the Prime Minister couldn't bear to do the unpopular but necessary thing.
I'm sure you're diligently noting down in your ledger the untold thousands of EU citizens who will perish completely unnecessarily due to the EU, and various Member State governments, putting political ideology and dogma ahead of the lives of their citizens.
Your position the other night was that this was a pandemic and as such a natural phenomenon for which no government could be blamed for anything at all. Have you yet moved on from that ridiculous position?
Not at all. I'm just naively assuming you must be doing as I mentioned as a logical extension of your criticisms of the UK government.
If you're not then it doesn't bother me, but it would be interesting to know. Unless of course there's axes to be ground.
I don't blame any government for anything as it happens. No government is deliberately seeking to kill their citizens. All are doing what they consider to be the best at the time they make any decision, in rapidly changing situations, with new and constantly evolving scientific evidence or theories.
But if there's an axe to be ground then so be it. Fill your boots. It won't assuage your evident hate of the UK government though. Use your vote instead. If enough people agree with you then democracy will have its say.
I have a feeling though that it won't be your current angst that'll be the undoing of Johnson.
So you do agree that the outrageous number of avoidable deaths that the British government is responsible for is something that they should be held accountable for?
No I don't as I don't consider them to be "outrageous" or ultimately what I would consider to be "avoidable".
Comparatively high to others, at this precise moment in time, yes. Expected, yes.
We have a habit of making our governments "accountable" every 4 or 5 years. If your belief is shared by the majority of people come judgement day then you'll be the first to celebrate I'm sure.
Expected? The fourth worst in the world? This country is well and truly up shit creek if your disgusting complacency about such disastrous performance is widely shared.
Except fourth in the world is not true. There is no semblance of truth to it whatsoever so only someone trying to lie to score partisan points would use that claim.
4th is a frequently quoted (by reputable sources) current estimate of where we stand. It can be disputed - as all precise country comparisons can be - but it's not a bad faith claim. You, OTOH, with nonsense such as "there is no semblance of truth to it whatsoever", are lying.
Show me how you can get 4th from that? Or do you think we should be using the guesstimate trackers that we know are missing half or more of some countries deaths?
Which matters more for you: how many people have actually died (excess deaths) or using figures you know are wrong because they put Britain in a bad light (recorded Covid19 deaths)?
I have two very strong suspicions.
a) if the 'official' Covid deaths on Worldometer showed the UK with a much lower death rate than others, you would be trumpeting the government's success ad infinitum, regardless of what excess deaths showed (currently).
b) you will emphatically deny a).
If I did and I was using Worldometer figures that were BS then you would be right to correct the record and point out that they're bullshit.
Everyone agreed early on, before figures showed anything, that the one gold standard true metric during a pandemic is excess deaths. Because some countries (like the UK) do a good job of testing for and accurately recording cause of death, others do not.
What matters more to you:
a) how many have actually died in real life?
b) how many Worldometers claims have died?
a). But neither you, nor I, know how we compare relative to other countries on that measure yet, and we won't for some time. So you going on about it is no different from those going on about b).
We don't know everything but there's a substantial amount of data there.
Italy until 30/11/20 had 157 excess deaths per 100k population. Britain until 22/01/21 had 160 excess deaths per 100k population.
Given the figures that have come out from Italy in December and January it seems reasonable to expect more than 3 deaths per 100k in the eight weeks they have missing from the data.
(i) "I disagree with the table showing we are 4th worst in the world on covid outcome. There are other ways of comparing that I think give a fairer result."
(ii) "4th in the world is not true. There is no semblance of truth to it whatsoever."
Language is all there is on an internet forum and you are abusing it here. It's fine - you write what you want - but so will I.
And here I use it to charge and convict you of arguing in bad faith, aka LYING.
No you are acting in bad faith.
There is categorically no semblance of truth to the Worldometers figures. Just because someone compiles dodgy data does not give it a semblance of truth.
When Italy are recording two excess deaths for every one Covid death there is no good faith reason at all to be using the Worldometers data when accurate alternatives are out there.
It is like a few days ago when Leon claimed that France had a 25% death toll from Covid19 because that is what Worldometers gives as the closed case death rate.
Anybody still using Worldometers as their primary source and trying to make political claims based on that is either malicious or ignorant.
Worldometers table is not "unfair" or "disagreeable" it is wrong and using wrong data leads to wrong outcomes. Garbage in, garbage out.
Fantastic! Salmond advises the committee to ask his solicitors for for any information withheld by branches of government, and tells them that the Scotland Act enables this
He's almost a characterisation of the Revenge is a dish best served cold idea.
Are these really the explosive revelations that Salmond clearly thinks they are? I’ve always found his smug, self-satisfied demeanour repellent - and all the more so in the light of the revelations of how he behaved around female subordinates.
Did you listen to it. A masterclass.
From the witness yes. Head & shoulders above the current crop (both sides of the border)
Some of his questioners, much less so.....I thought Murdo & Jackie stood out - some of the others did too - for the wrong reasons.....
Enemies enemies make strange bedfellows. You of all people Carlotta standing four square behind one of the most appalling misogynists* in British politics.
(Forgive me quoting Ruth Davidson)
I think even "appalling misogynists" deserve "due process" and "the rule of law".
Question. Covid-19. What is likely to happen next winter? What level of problems will we face with Covid-19? Are we likely to have large number of people in hospital being treated for Covid-19? Will there still be face masks, social distancing etc?
I would not be surprised if we have top up vaccinations in the autumn, but that there is a push for use of face masks without it being law, on the basis that it might well cut down on the annual flu anyway.
I think voluntary face masks, social distancing, and hand sanitiser are here to stay.
One of the interesting things about the excess deaths graphs at https://www.ft.com/content/a2901ce8-5eb7-4633-b89c-cbdf5b386938 is that the UK is unusual on having such a sharp spike in the baseline in January-ish. (It flatters our excess deaths data a bit more right now, I imagine.) I assume that's flu, and if improved hygiene can squash that, it's surely a good thing.
Quite a few people I know who haven't been working from home have noted a complete lack of sniffles this winter, something they experience nearly every winter.
These are people who work in public facing roles and use public transport.
To be fair I post here and I’m therefore politically engaged, but if asked unprompted I’m not sure I’d remember Dodds was Shadow CX. I have to look up the other Shadow Ministers every time.
I find that she has become memorable for me because people talk about how unmemorable she is. Contrarily, I'd have no idea who the Shadow Home Secretary is.
Nick Thomas symonds is the shadow home Secretary. I think he is good comes across very well.
I'm 57 and got my first jab this morning - at Lord's. It was really very well organised. Hat's off to those concerned.
Did they use the hall by the Nursery ground? (God, I can't wait to get back to Lords to watch cricket.)
I'd like to have mine in the long room.
No - it was the 'banqueting' suite above Lord's Tavern, and it was only on exiting that one was in the cricket ground proper, exiting via Grace gate. (This to @rcs1000 obviously)
Question. Covid-19. What is likely to happen next winter? What level of problems will we face with Covid-19? Are we likely to have large number of people in hospital being treated for Covid-19? Will there still be face masks, social distancing etc?
I would not be surprised if we have top up vaccinations in the autumn, but that there is a push for use of face masks without it being law, on the basis that it might well cut down on the annual flu anyway.
I think voluntary face masks, social distancing, and hand sanitiser are here to stay.
Yes, as long as the memories of the great COVID waves of hospitalisations and deaths are fresh in people's minds. But when the deaths go down and the hospitalisations stabilise at a lower level, will people forget? Most events get forgotten in time and slowly society creeps back to normal, until the next big upset.
We shouldn't be surprised by the increase in British willingness to get vaccinated. There's nothing as effective as stuffing it to the EU for encouraging Brits to do something.
I said to Dave the best way to win the referendum was to tell the public that the French wanted us to Leave.
Remain landslide.
This whole bashing the French thing is a peculiar middle class Tory obsession. There's a fair bit of suspicion even paranoia amongst the public towards our Gallic cousins but most people have got better things to do.
Have to say still no invitation for this 60+ to get a vaccine. Hearing widespread stories of those in their 50s getting a vaccine and the unwillingness of Government to publish detailed figures on the progress of vaccination does make me suspicious the rollout programme is proceeding rapidly in some areas and less well in others.
The cohort of those aged 16-64 with underlying health conditions is admittedly one of the largest at over 7 million nationally but progress through this and down the population appears inconsistent to this observer whatever the national numbers are saying..
I believe those who have previously voted LibDem are not eligible for vaccination, so that's probably the reason.
Question. Covid-19. What is likely to happen next winter? What level of problems will we face with Covid-19? Are we likely to have large number of people in hospital being treated for Covid-19? Will there still be face masks, social distancing etc?
I would not be surprised if we have top up vaccinations in the autumn, but that there is a push for use of face masks without it being law, on the basis that it might well cut down on the annual flu anyway.
I think voluntary face masks, social distancing, and hand sanitiser are here to stay.
I think that most people (apart from real germophobes, who have discovered a new fetish) will gradually forget about the constant slathering with hand sanitiser. There's no place for social distancing in a fully functional society, and it would certainly kill much of the hospitality trade and venues like theatres stone dead.
Masks are a different matter. I can actually see them being mandated in certain settings again this Winter, because of concern about flu and Covid hitting at once. Going forward, it's not impossible that they might become a social norm on crowded public transport as well, or for people who have to go out despite being ill (and actually, one social change I really would like to see coming out of this pandemic - and this has been called for by a number of boffins recently - is for the culture of presenteeism to go in the dustbin and for it to become socially unacceptable for people who are really quite ill to keep dragging themselves into workplaces. Although that would probably necessitate the ditching both of zero hours contracts and the gig economy model, so that's probably not going to happen at all, and certainly not under a Conservative Government.)
Question. Covid-19. What is likely to happen next winter? What level of problems will we face with Covid-19? Are we likely to have large number of people in hospital being treated for Covid-19? Will there still be face masks, social distancing etc?
I would not be surprised if we have top up vaccinations in the autumn, but that there is a push for use of face masks without it being law, on the basis that it might well cut down on the annual flu anyway.
I think voluntary face masks, social distancing, and hand sanitiser are here to stay.
One of the interesting things about the excess deaths graphs at https://www.ft.com/content/a2901ce8-5eb7-4633-b89c-cbdf5b386938 is that the UK is unusual on having such a sharp spike in the baseline in January-ish. (It flatters our excess deaths data a bit more right now, I imagine.) I assume that's flu, and if improved hygiene can squash that, it's surely a good thing.
Quite a few people I know who haven't been working from home have noted a complete lack of sniffles this winter, something they experience nearly every winter.
These are people who work in public facing roles and use public transport.
There is no question that the anti Covid measures also are suppressing other viruses. Whether we as a society would want mandated wearing post Covid (assuming we get to post Covid) is a different question as to whether some will carry on wearing them. One issue I think should change is the oversanitizing that is now taking place, despite the evidence showing little to no risk of vomited being a significant cause of Covid spread.
Interesting anecdote from today's Guernsey briefing - they had been told to expect 20% wastage in the vaccine roll out - the actual figure is 0.5% - which was one 10ml vial that was a bit cloudy they decided to ditch in the first 20,000 vaccinations. Like many places in the UK they have people on standby to get any spare doses at the end of the day - they are also routinely getting an extra dose out of each vial.
I do wonder if we should have been so keen to share our vaccine with the tax avoiding crown dependencies.
Question. Covid-19. What is likely to happen next winter? What level of problems will we face with Covid-19? Are we likely to have large number of people in hospital being treated for Covid-19? Will there still be face masks, social distancing etc?
I would not be surprised if we have top up vaccinations in the autumn, but that there is a push for use of face masks without it being law, on the basis that it might well cut down on the annual flu anyway.
I think voluntary face masks, social distancing, and hand sanitiser are here to stay.
Facemasks maybe, hand sanitiser without a shadow of a doubt, but I’m less sure about social distancing in the same way that condom use declined when the perceived threat of AIDS receded.
Have to say still no invitation for this 60+ to get a vaccine. Hearing widespread stories of those in their 50s getting a vaccine and the unwillingness of Government to publish detailed figures on the progress of vaccination does make me suspicious the rollout programme is proceeding rapidly in some areas and less well in others.
The cohort of those aged 16-64 with underlying health conditions is admittedly one of the largest at over 7 million nationally but progress through this and down the population appears inconsistent to this observer whatever the national numbers are saying..
I believe those who have previously voted LibDem are not eligible for vaccination, so that's probably the reason.
In that case, given that OGH had his ages ago, compiling the Yellow List of the Treasonous was clearly a Grayling project.
Question. Covid-19. What is likely to happen next winter? What level of problems will we face with Covid-19? Are we likely to have large number of people in hospital being treated for Covid-19? Will there still be face masks, social distancing etc?
I would not be surprised if we have top up vaccinations in the autumn, but that there is a push for use of face masks without it being law, on the basis that it might well cut down on the annual flu anyway.
That mustn't happen IMO. No facemasks for normal life, and flu is part of normal life.
I don't like facemasks either, but if it is not law but people choose to do it what business is that of yours or mine?
Do you remember what would have happened this time last year if you walked in to a bank with a face mask on?
Have to say still no invitation for this 60+ to get a vaccine. Hearing widespread stories of those in their 50s getting a vaccine and the unwillingness of Government to publish detailed figures on the progress of vaccination does make me suspicious the rollout programme is proceeding rapidly in some areas and less well in others.
The cohort of those aged 16-64 with underlying health conditions is admittedly one of the largest at over 7 million nationally but progress through this and down the population appears inconsistent to this observer whatever the national numbers are saying..
I believe those who have previously voted LibDem are not eligible for vaccination, so that's probably the reason.
I'm sure it won't be long before those who are vaccinated realise it's going to turn them into Lib Dem voting zombies though the effect may not happen until 2024.
We shouldn't be surprised by the increase in British willingness to get vaccinated. There's nothing as effective as stuffing it to the EU for encouraging Brits to do something.
I said to Dave the best way to win the referendum was to tell the public that the French wanted us to Leave.
Remain landslide.
This whole bashing the French thing is a peculiar middle class Tory obsession. There's a fair bit of suspicion even paranoia amongst the public towards our Gallic cousins but most people have got better things to do.
Nonsense, our distrust of the French goes back centuries.
Would you like me to repeat the comments of the Labour party towards Chirac and the French when Chirac threaten to use the French veto at the UN over the plans to liberate Iraq?
Have to say still no invitation for this 60+ to get a vaccine. Hearing widespread stories of those in their 50s getting a vaccine and the unwillingness of Government to publish detailed figures on the progress of vaccination does make me suspicious the rollout programme is proceeding rapidly in some areas and less well in others.
The cohort of those aged 16-64 with underlying health conditions is admittedly one of the largest at over 7 million nationally but progress through this and down the population appears inconsistent to this observer whatever the national numbers are saying..
I believe those who have previously voted LibDem are not eligible for vaccination, so that's probably the reason.
Have to say still no invitation for this 60+ to get a vaccine. Hearing widespread stories of those in their 50s getting a vaccine and the unwillingness of Government to publish detailed figures on the progress of vaccination does make me suspicious the rollout programme is proceeding rapidly in some areas and less well in others.
The cohort of those aged 16-64 with underlying health conditions is admittedly one of the largest at over 7 million nationally but progress through this and down the population appears inconsistent to this observer whatever the national numbers are saying..
Not sure if you saw my earlier post this afternoon @Stodge.
We each put in our NHS number, DoB, answered 'No' to the list of vulnerabilities, and hey presto - we were offered a range of nearby locations and dates.
Question. Covid-19. What is likely to happen next winter? What level of problems will we face with Covid-19? Are we likely to have large number of people in hospital being treated for Covid-19? Will there still be face masks, social distancing etc?
I would not be surprised if we have top up vaccinations in the autumn, but that there is a push for use of face masks without it being law, on the basis that it might well cut down on the annual flu anyway.
I think voluntary face masks, social distancing, and hand sanitiser are here to stay.
I think that most people (apart from real germophobes, who have discovered a new fetish) will gradually forget about the constant slathering with hand sanitiser. There's no place for social distancing in a fully functional society, and it would certainly kill much of the hospitality trade and venues like theatres stone dead.
Masks are a different matter. I can actually see them being mandated in certain settings again this Winter, because of concern about flu and Covid hitting at once. Going forward, it's not impossible that they might become a social norm on crowded public transport as well, or for people who have to go out despite being ill (and actually, one social change I really would like to see coming out of this pandemic - and this has been called for by a number of boffins recently - is for the culture of presenteeism to go in the dustbin and for it to become socially unacceptable for people who are really quite ill to keep dragging themselves into workplaces. Although that would probably necessitate the ditching both of zero hours contracts and the gig economy model, so that's probably not going to happen at all, and certainly not under a Conservative Government.)
I think the one thing that will change is that people will not go to work if they have so much as a sniffle.
But there's no way I'm wearing a mask on the train just in case.
I see the Guardian says the Begum ruling is “controversial”
This is one of those special Guardian word-definitions, where “controversial” means “it dismays three people in Islington”
The view of the court about the respect to be given to the views and judgment of Ministers is something of a throw back and may cause ripples. It is not easy to reconcile that view with the unanimous view of the Court in the Prorogation case, to take an example.
The court over-reached with the prorogation case; this time they are exactly right. These difficult executive decisions must be made by people who are democratically accountable
These two cases are easily reconciled.
In both cases the court found it had the power to intervene. It took the view that it should intervene in the prorogation case because the government was taking the piss (which it was): the government's refusal to give any account under oath for its actions may well have proven fatal to its case. You seem to have forgotten that at the time of the purported prorogation Britain had a Prime Minister who had not been elected at a general election, who did not command a majority in Parliament and indeed had not won a vote in Parliament pursuing a policy that had not been put before the British public and using prorogation as a tool to impose that irreversibly.
In the present case it took the view that the government had acted within the wide latitude granted to governments when taking decisions. Which, given that the Home Secretary was exercising statutory powers given to them in an extreme case, is not all that surprising.
The main consequence of the prorogation case was political. The public decided, unlike in the USA, that they were AOK with self-coups. As a result Britain now has a government with a light attachment to democracy and an extreme aversion to any form of accountability enthusiastically supported by a self-radicalised posse who are quite willing to overlook anything it does, up to and including the avoidable deaths of tens of thousands.
Nice example of ensuring people wont pay attention to your solidly put points because you wanted to indulge in unrelated theatrical condemnation.
Now you can pretend to be affronted when people ignore your good first paras, even though that was presumably your intention and you want Brexiteers to rage at you so you can respond in turn.
Well, each of us has fun in their own way i suppose.
The last bit is the important bit. Tens of thousands of people have died avoidable deaths, but the government's supporters simply don't think that's as important as supporting the government.
I am staggered at the self-degradation of these partisans.
Pot meet kettle. I assume the Italians, French, Germans, Americans (need I go on?) who died were all unavoidable deaths? Or maybe. just maybe there is a nasty virus in worldwide circulation causing epic problems to all governments. Ours has not performed well, I think most would accept that, but they are not the only ones to struggle in this pandemic. At least we have one of the most open and trustworthy reporting systems. How many Chinese died in Wuhan province? How many Spaniards have died (unclear reporting, and a suggestion that that true figure is far higher than the official one? I get that you hate Brexit and the current government, but you are one of the most blinkered on this site. You are an intelligent man, but your own lack of self awareness is stark.
Britain has done exceptionally badly, in the bottommost tier of countries in its response to Covid-19. Only the most crazed zealots would suggest otherwise.
Sadly, many of those crazed zealots infest this site. Here's the sort of problem that they're determined to avoid discussing:
I raised this this morning but the hypothesis of that comment that this is something that could have been avoided is at best unproven. As far as we can tell what happened was that Kent variant took a much greater hold in this country than elsewhere, it was far more infectious and possibly marginally more dangerous.
Your default assumption that this was a consequence of government incompetence or ineptitude may prove to be correct but it is an assumption. The UK has the best genomic analysis in the world. By that time (December) it had amongst the best test and trace and was one of the very highest levels of testing. And yet we were still caught with our trousers down. Incompetence? Maybe but it is possible that we did our very best and were simply unlucky.
My memory is good enough to remember early December, when cases in Britain were obviously rising and the government was resisting tightening up. I remember the Prime Minister mocking the Leader of the Opposition for suggesting the same thing.
It was obvious what was happening at the time. And untold thousands paid with their lives because the Prime Minister couldn't bear to do the unpopular but necessary thing.
I'm sure you're diligently noting down in your ledger the untold thousands of EU citizens who will perish completely unnecessarily due to the EU, and various Member State governments, putting political ideology and dogma ahead of the lives of their citizens.
Your position the other night was that this was a pandemic and as such a natural phenomenon for which no government could be blamed for anything at all. Have you yet moved on from that ridiculous position?
Not at all. I'm just naively assuming you must be doing as I mentioned as a logical extension of your criticisms of the UK government.
If you're not then it doesn't bother me, but it would be interesting to know. Unless of course there's axes to be ground.
I don't blame any government for anything as it happens. No government is deliberately seeking to kill their citizens. All are doing what they consider to be the best at the time they make any decision, in rapidly changing situations, with new and constantly evolving scientific evidence or theories.
But if there's an axe to be ground then so be it. Fill your boots. It won't assuage your evident hate of the UK government though. Use your vote instead. If enough people agree with you then democracy will have its say.
I have a feeling though that it won't be your current angst that'll be the undoing of Johnson.
So you do agree that the outrageous number of avoidable deaths that the British government is responsible for is something that they should be held accountable for?
No I don't as I don't consider them to be "outrageous" or ultimately what I would consider to be "avoidable".
Comparatively high to others, at this precise moment in time, yes. Expected, yes.
We have a habit of making our governments "accountable" every 4 or 5 years. If your belief is shared by the majority of people come judgement day then you'll be the first to celebrate I'm sure.
Expected? The fourth worst in the world? This country is well and truly up shit creek if your disgusting complacency about such disastrous performance is widely shared.
Except fourth in the world is not true. There is no semblance of truth to it whatsoever so only someone trying to lie to score partisan points would use that claim.
4th is a frequently quoted (by reputable sources) current estimate of where we stand. It can be disputed - as all precise country comparisons can be - but it's not a bad faith claim. You, OTOH, with nonsense such as "there is no semblance of truth to it whatsoever", are lying.
Show me how you can get 4th from that? Or do you think we should be using the guesstimate trackers that we know are missing half or more of some countries deaths?
Which matters more for you: how many people have actually died (excess deaths) or using figures you know are wrong because they put Britain in a bad light (recorded Covid19 deaths)?
I have two very strong suspicions.
a) if the 'official' Covid deaths on Worldometer showed the UK with a much lower death rate than others, you would be trumpeting the government's success ad infinitum, regardless of what excess deaths showed (currently).
b) you will emphatically deny a).
If I did and I was using Worldometer figures that were BS then you would be right to correct the record and point out that they're bullshit.
Everyone agreed early on, before figures showed anything, that the one gold standard true metric during a pandemic is excess deaths. Because some countries (like the UK) do a good job of testing for and accurately recording cause of death, others do not.
What matters more to you:
a) how many have actually died in real life?
b) how many Worldometers claims have died?
a). But neither you, nor I, know how we compare relative to other countries on that measure yet, and we won't for some time. So you going on about it is no different from those going on about b).
We don't know everything but there's a substantial amount of data there.
Italy until 30/11/20 had 157 excess deaths per 100k population. Britain until 22/01/21 had 160 excess deaths per 100k population.
Given the figures that have come out from Italy in December and January it seems reasonable to expect more than 3 deaths per 100k in the eight weeks they have missing from the data.
The problem with doing it on "per 100k" is that it flatters those with younger populations. I'd do it percentage-wise personally.
Question. Covid-19. What is likely to happen next winter? What level of problems will we face with Covid-19? Are we likely to have large number of people in hospital being treated for Covid-19? Will there still be face masks, social distancing etc?
I would not be surprised if we have top up vaccinations in the autumn, but that there is a push for use of face masks without it being law, on the basis that it might well cut down on the annual flu anyway.
I think voluntary face masks, social distancing, and hand sanitiser are here to stay.
I think that most people (apart from real germophobes, who have discovered a new fetish) will gradually forget about the constant slathering with hand sanitiser. There's no place for social distancing in a fully functional society, and it would certainly kill much of the hospitality trade and venues like theatres stone dead.
Masks are a different matter. I can actually see them being mandated in certain settings again this Winter, because of concern about flu and Covid hitting at once. Going forward, it's not impossible that they might become a social norm on crowded public transport as well, or for people who have to go out despite being ill (and actually, one social change I really would like to see coming out of this pandemic - and this has been called for by a number of boffins recently - is for the culture of presenteeism to go in the dustbin and for it to become socially unacceptable for people who are really quite ill to keep dragging themselves into workplaces. Although that would probably necessitate the ditching both of zero hours contracts and the gig economy model, so that's probably not going to happen at all, and certainly not under a Conservative Government.)
I think some people will be cautious.
I'm a cinema and gig goer, I might wait a year to see what the impacts of non mask wearing at the cinema and a lack of social distancing at those two venues has on Covid numbers.
Fantastic! Salmond advises the committee to ask his solicitors for for any information withheld by branches of government, and tells them that the Scotland Act enables this
He's almost a characterisation of the Revenge is a dish best served cold idea.
Are these really the explosive revelations that Salmond clearly thinks they are? I’ve always found his smug, self-satisfied demeanour repellent - and all the more so in the light of the revelations of how he behaved around female subordinates.
Did you listen to it. A masterclass.
From the witness yes. Head & shoulders above the current crop (both sides of the border)
Some of his questioners, much less so.....I thought Murdo & Jackie stood out - some of the others did too - for the wrong reasons.....
Enemies enemies make strange bedfellows. You of all people Carlotta standing four square behind one of the most appalling misogynists* in British politics.
(Forgive me quoting Ruth Davidson)
I think even "appalling misogynists" deserve "due process" and "the rule of law".
Don't you?
The hypocrisy of the Tories on here has become one of the great features of the site.All the bright Tories peeled off after Brexit but the ones that are left are a gift!
Now that Salmond's put the boot into the Nats what about a seat in the HoL? Minister for women perhaps?
We shouldn't be surprised by the increase in British willingness to get vaccinated. There's nothing as effective as stuffing it to the EU for encouraging Brits to do something.
I said to Dave the best way to win the referendum was to tell the public that the French wanted us to Leave.
Remain landslide.
This whole bashing the French thing is a peculiar middle class Tory obsession. There's a fair bit of suspicion even paranoia amongst the public towards our Gallic cousins but most people have got better things to do.
I agree. I absolutely love France, the country, and like the French; I thought I was alone on here, but maybe not. Since I started posting on here, I've never understood the animosity and, sometimes, bile aimed at the French. I guess some of it is meant to be amusing, but still. Most strange.
Question. Covid-19. What is likely to happen next winter? What level of problems will we face with Covid-19? Are we likely to have large number of people in hospital being treated for Covid-19? Will there still be face masks, social distancing etc?
I would not be surprised if we have top up vaccinations in the autumn, but that there is a push for use of face masks without it being law, on the basis that it might well cut down on the annual flu anyway.
I think voluntary face masks, social distancing, and hand sanitiser are here to stay.
One of the interesting things about the excess deaths graphs at https://www.ft.com/content/a2901ce8-5eb7-4633-b89c-cbdf5b386938 is that the UK is unusual on having such a sharp spike in the baseline in January-ish. (It flatters our excess deaths data a bit more right now, I imagine.) I assume that's flu, and if improved hygiene can squash that, it's surely a good thing.
It is doubly strange given that the UK has (apparently) the highest uptake of flu vaccinations in Europe - something that many are saying is one of the underlying reasons why our current covid vaccination is meeting such little resistance.
I was puzzled by the Hong Kong figure. But then I reflected, if I lived in Hong Kong, would I really risk letting the government of Xi Jinping stick something in my arm?
Then good news, if he wants to do it he won't ask if you'll 'let' him.
Fair point.
Edit - coupled with the fact that AIUI the Sinopharm vaccine is not very good (52% effective?) that also suggests that China might continue to be a problem in this pandemic.
They say 72%. Data from Turkey, Brazil and Indonesia puts it anywhere between 50% and 90%. I think it’s better than nowt.
Sinopharm is okay, similar to AZ. Sinovac is the dud one.
I think voluntary face masks, social distancing, and hand sanitiser are here to stay.
Of the three, I think social distancing is the least likely. So many people I talk to seem fixated with going down to the pub and just meeting with and talking to people.
I'm an anti-social grumpy old git so that doesn't have the same appeal.
Face masks - some will wear them on the Tube in particular and I can see some logic for no other reason than the air quality in London in certain weather conditions is poor.
I would like to think one of the few positives from all this will be greater awareness of the importance of personal hygiene and a sense of collective responsibility so we don't "just soldier on" when ill and we accept keeping surfaces germ-free isn't a bad idea. The public health lessons need to be re-enforced once the vaccination programme has done its work.
After all, we don't know how long immunity from the vaccine will last - it's entirely possible there will need to be a round of booster vaccinations in October or November and there's a worry the take-up of those may not be as encouraging as we are seeing currently. That said, as vaccines improve, it's entirely possible we'll get to a point where one vaccination could provide 18-24 months of immunity if not more.
At a simpler level, if better hygiene and public health reduces the numbers of colds and outbreaks of norovirus, that can be no bad thing.
Question. Covid-19. What is likely to happen next winter? What level of problems will we face with Covid-19? Are we likely to have large number of people in hospital being treated for Covid-19? Will there still be face masks, social distancing etc?
I would not be surprised if we have top up vaccinations in the autumn, but that there is a push for use of face masks without it being law, on the basis that it might well cut down on the annual flu anyway.
I think voluntary face masks, social distancing, and hand sanitiser are here to stay.
I think that most people (apart from real germophobes, who have discovered a new fetish) will gradually forget about the constant slathering with hand sanitiser. There's no place for social distancing in a fully functional society, and it would certainly kill much of the hospitality trade and venues like theatres stone dead.
Masks are a different matter. I can actually see them being mandated in certain settings again this Winter, because of concern about flu and Covid hitting at once. Going forward, it's not impossible that they might become a social norm on crowded public transport as well, or for people who have to go out despite being ill (and actually, one social change I really would like to see coming out of this pandemic - and this has been called for by a number of boffins recently - is for the culture of presenteeism to go in the dustbin and for it to become socially unacceptable for people who are really quite ill to keep dragging themselves into workplaces. Although that would probably necessitate the ditching both of zero hours contracts and the gig economy model, so that's probably not going to happen at all, and certainly not under a Conservative Government.)
I think the one thing that will change is that people will not go to work if they have so much as a sniffle.
But there's no way I'm wearing a mask on the train just in case.
With regard to presenteeism: as I suggested in my previous post, that's only changing if the attitude of employers as well as employees changes. One rather suspects (partly based on personal experience) that HR departments are so paranoid about the possibility of being fleeced by malingerers that it really takes very little in many firms to trigger an automated treadmill of sickness absence reviews and warning letters. It's quite likely that all of that will come flooding back as soon as the workload of Covid-enforced absences abates, I'm afraid.
We shouldn't be surprised by the increase in British willingness to get vaccinated. There's nothing as effective as stuffing it to the EU for encouraging Brits to do something.
I said to Dave the best way to win the referendum was to tell the public that the French wanted us to Leave.
Remain landslide.
This whole bashing the French thing is a peculiar middle class Tory obsession. There's a fair bit of suspicion even paranoia amongst the public towards our Gallic cousins but most people have got better things to do.
Nonsense, our distrust of the French goes back centuries.
Would you like me to repeat the comments of the Labour party towards Chirac and the French when Chirac threaten to use the French veto at the UN over the plans to liberate Iraq?
The French do it too - 'how can you rule a country with 246 different cheeses?' is not a Tory quote.
Question. Covid-19. What is likely to happen next winter? What level of problems will we face with Covid-19? Are we likely to have large number of people in hospital being treated for Covid-19? Will there still be face masks, social distancing etc?
I would not be surprised if we have top up vaccinations in the autumn, but that there is a push for use of face masks without it being law, on the basis that it might well cut down on the annual flu anyway.
I think voluntary face masks, social distancing, and hand sanitiser are here to stay.
One of the interesting things about the excess deaths graphs at https://www.ft.com/content/a2901ce8-5eb7-4633-b89c-cbdf5b386938 is that the UK is unusual on having such a sharp spike in the baseline in January-ish. (It flatters our excess deaths data a bit more right now, I imagine.) I assume that's flu, and if improved hygiene can squash that, it's surely a good thing.
It is doubly strange given that the UK has (apparently) the highest uptake of flu vaccinations in Europe - something that many are saying is one of the underlying reasons why our current covid vaccination is meeting such little resistance.
No doubt at least in part due to the great trust there is in the NHS. (To perhaps slightly irrational levels)
We shouldn't be surprised by the increase in British willingness to get vaccinated. There's nothing as effective as stuffing it to the EU for encouraging Brits to do something.
I said to Dave the best way to win the referendum was to tell the public that the French wanted us to Leave.
Remain landslide.
This whole bashing the French thing is a peculiar middle class Tory obsession. There's a fair bit of suspicion even paranoia amongst the public towards our Gallic cousins but most people have got better things to do.
I agree. I absolutely love France, the country, and like the French; I thought I was alone on here, but maybe not. Since I started posting on here, I've never understood the animosity and, sometimes, bile aimed at the French. I guess some of it is meant to be amusing, but still. Most strange.
The English and French have been insulting each other, and indeed fighting each other, for the best part of 1000 years!
It's nothing new and some might say a rivalry which has been mutually beneficial to both. Both countries keep each other on its toes!
We don't know everything but there's a substantial amount of data there.
Italy until 30/11/20 had 157 excess deaths per 100k population. Britain until 22/01/21 had 160 excess deaths per 100k population.
Given the figures that have come out from Italy in December and January it seems reasonable to expect more than 3 deaths per 100k in the eight weeks they have missing from the data.
The problem with doing it on "per 100k" is that it flatters those with younger populations. I'd do it percentage-wise personally.
I think voluntary face masks, social distancing, and hand sanitiser are here to stay.
Of the three, I think social distancing is the least likely. So many people I talk to seem fixated with going down to the pub and just meeting with and talking to people.
I'm an anti-social grumpy old git so that doesn't have the same appeal.
Face masks - some will wear them on the Tube in particular and I can see some logic for no other reason than the air quality in London in certain weather conditions is poor.
I would like to think one of the few positives from all this will be greater awareness of the importance of personal hygiene and a sense of collective responsibility so we don't "just soldier on" when ill and we accept keeping surfaces germ-free isn't a bad idea. The public health lessons need to be re-enforced once the vaccination programme has done its work.
After all, we don't know how long immunity from the vaccine will last - it's entirely possible there will need to be a round of booster vaccinations in October or November and there's a worry the take-up of those may not be as encouraging as we are seeing currently. That said, as vaccines improve, it's entirely possible we'll get to a point where one vaccination could provide 18-24 months of immunity if not more.
At a simpler level, if better hygiene and public health reduces the numbers of colds and outbreaks of norovirus, that can be no bad thing.
I’m quite confident of rather long immunity. I believe others have posted about sars immunity lasting 20 years or so. Certainly we are now a year in with no evidence of widespread re infection. Also my colleague who had Covid in March 2020 mounted a very strong reaction on immunisation. A year is a minimum I’d think...
One explanation for the data in the header may be that in this country the vast majority of anti-lockdown supporters are nevertheless big supporters of the vaccines. That probably isn't so much the case in other countries.
Fantastic! Salmond advises the committee to ask his solicitors for for any information withheld by branches of government, and tells them that the Scotland Act enables this
He's almost a characterisation of the Revenge is a dish best served cold idea.
Are these really the explosive revelations that Salmond clearly thinks they are? I’ve always found his smug, self-satisfied demeanour repellent - and all the more so in the light of the revelations of how he behaved around female subordinates.
Did you listen to it. A masterclass.
From the witness yes. Head & shoulders above the current crop (both sides of the border)
Some of his questioners, much less so.....I thought Murdo & Jackie stood out - some of the others did too - for the wrong reasons.....
Enemies enemies make strange bedfellows. You of all people Carlotta standing four square behind one of the most appalling misogynists* in British politics.
(Forgive me quoting Ruth Davidson)
I think even "appalling misogynists" deserve "due process" and "the rule of law".
Don't you?
The hypocrisy of the Tories on here has become one of the great features of the site.All the bright Tories peeled off after Brexit but the ones that are left are a gift!
Now that Salmond's put the boot into the Nats what about a seat in the HoL? Minister for women perhaps?
Considering you still are a polanski apologist maybe take the beam out of your own eye before tarring others
Question. Covid-19. What is likely to happen next winter? What level of problems will we face with Covid-19? Are we likely to have large number of people in hospital being treated for Covid-19? Will there still be face masks, social distancing etc?
I would not be surprised if we have top up vaccinations in the autumn, but that there is a push for use of face masks without it being law, on the basis that it might well cut down on the annual flu anyway.
I think voluntary face masks, social distancing, and hand sanitiser are here to stay.
I think that most people (apart from real germophobes, who have discovered a new fetish) will gradually forget about the constant slathering with hand sanitiser. There's no place for social distancing in a fully functional society, and it would certainly kill much of the hospitality trade and venues like theatres stone dead.
Masks are a different matter. I can actually see them being mandated in certain settings again this Winter, because of concern about flu and Covid hitting at once. Going forward, it's not impossible that they might become a social norm on crowded public transport as well, or for people who have to go out despite being ill (and actually, one social change I really would like to see coming out of this pandemic - and this has been called for by a number of boffins recently - is for the culture of presenteeism to go in the dustbin and for it to become socially unacceptable for people who are really quite ill to keep dragging themselves into workplaces. Although that would probably necessitate the ditching both of zero hours contracts and the gig economy model, so that's probably not going to happen at all, and certainly not under a Conservative Government.)
I think the one thing that will change is that people will not go to work if they have so much as a sniffle.
But there's no way I'm wearing a mask on the train just in case.
I'm flying to New York next week, and plan on wearing one of these:
Have to say still no invitation for this 60+ to get a vaccine. Hearing widespread stories of those in their 50s getting a vaccine and the unwillingness of Government to publish detailed figures on the progress of vaccination does make me suspicious the rollout programme is proceeding rapidly in some areas and less well in others.
The cohort of those aged 16-64 with underlying health conditions is admittedly one of the largest at over 7 million nationally but progress through this and down the population appears inconsistent to this observer whatever the national numbers are saying..
I believe those who have previously voted LibDem are not eligible for vaccination, so that's probably the reason.
I'm sure it won't be long before those who are vaccinated realise it's going to turn them into Lib Dem voting zombies though the effect may not happen until 2024.
What do you mean, Sir Ed? People don't know...
Oh dear....
Which ones were the LibDems? Were they the ones with the yellow ties?
I see the Guardian says the Begum ruling is “controversial”
This is one of those special Guardian word-definitions, where “controversial” means “it dismays three people in Islington”
The view of the court about the respect to be given to the views and judgment of Ministers is something of a throw back and may cause ripples. It is not easy to reconcile that view with the unanimous view of the Court in the Prorogation case, to take an example.
The court over-reached with the prorogation case; this time they are exactly right. These difficult executive decisions must be made by people who are democratically accountable
These two cases are easily reconciled.
In both cases the court found it had the power to intervene. It took the view that it should intervene in the prorogation case because the government was taking the piss (which it was): the government's refusal to give any account under oath for its actions may well have proven fatal to its case. You seem to have forgotten that at the time of the purported prorogation Britain had a Prime Minister who had not been elected at a general election, who did not command a majority in Parliament and indeed had not won a vote in Parliament pursuing a policy that had not been put before the British public and using prorogation as a tool to impose that irreversibly.
In the present case it took the view that the government had acted within the wide latitude granted to governments when taking decisions. Which, given that the Home Secretary was exercising statutory powers given to them in an extreme case, is not all that surprising.
The main consequence of the prorogation case was political. The public decided, unlike in the USA, that they were AOK with self-coups. As a result Britain now has a government with a light attachment to democracy and an extreme aversion to any form of accountability enthusiastically supported by a self-radicalised posse who are quite willing to overlook anything it does, up to and including the avoidable deaths of tens of thousands.
Nice example of ensuring people wont pay attention to your solidly put points because you wanted to indulge in unrelated theatrical condemnation.
Now you can pretend to be affronted when people ignore your good first paras, even though that was presumably your intention and you want Brexiteers to rage at you so you can respond in turn.
Well, each of us has fun in their own way i suppose.
The last bit is the important bit. Tens of thousands of people have died avoidable deaths, but the government's supporters simply don't think that's as important as supporting the government.
I am staggered at the self-degradation of these partisans.
Pot meet kettle. I assume the Italians, French, Germans, Americans (need I go on?) who died were all unavoidable deaths? Or maybe. just maybe there is a nasty virus in worldwide circulation causing epic problems to all governments. Ours has not performed well, I think most would accept that, but they are not the only ones to struggle in this pandemic. At least we have one of the most open and trustworthy reporting systems. How many Chinese died in Wuhan province? How many Spaniards have died (unclear reporting, and a suggestion that that true figure is far higher than the official one? I get that you hate Brexit and the current government, but you are one of the most blinkered on this site. You are an intelligent man, but your own lack of self awareness is stark.
Britain has done exceptionally badly, in the bottommost tier of countries in its response to Covid-19. Only the most crazed zealots would suggest otherwise.
Sadly, many of those crazed zealots infest this site. Here's the sort of problem that they're determined to avoid discussing:
I raised this this morning but the hypothesis of that comment that this is something that could have been avoided is at best unproven. As far as we can tell what happened was that Kent variant took a much greater hold in this country than elsewhere, it was far more infectious and possibly marginally more dangerous.
Your default assumption that this was a consequence of government incompetence or ineptitude may prove to be correct but it is an assumption. The UK has the best genomic analysis in the world. By that time (December) it had amongst the best test and trace and was one of the very highest levels of testing. And yet we were still caught with our trousers down. Incompetence? Maybe but it is possible that we did our very best and were simply unlucky.
My memory is good enough to remember early December, when cases in Britain were obviously rising and the government was resisting tightening up. I remember the Prime Minister mocking the Leader of the Opposition for suggesting the same thing.
It was obvious what was happening at the time. And untold thousands paid with their lives because the Prime Minister couldn't bear to do the unpopular but necessary thing.
I'm sure you're diligently noting down in your ledger the untold thousands of EU citizens who will perish completely unnecessarily due to the EU, and various Member State governments, putting political ideology and dogma ahead of the lives of their citizens.
Your position the other night was that this was a pandemic and as such a natural phenomenon for which no government could be blamed for anything at all. Have you yet moved on from that ridiculous position?
Not at all. I'm just naively assuming you must be doing as I mentioned as a logical extension of your criticisms of the UK government.
If you're not then it doesn't bother me, but it would be interesting to know. Unless of course there's axes to be ground.
I don't blame any government for anything as it happens. No government is deliberately seeking to kill their citizens. All are doing what they consider to be the best at the time they make any decision, in rapidly changing situations, with new and constantly evolving scientific evidence or theories.
But if there's an axe to be ground then so be it. Fill your boots. It won't assuage your evident hate of the UK government though. Use your vote instead. If enough people agree with you then democracy will have its say.
I have a feeling though that it won't be your current angst that'll be the undoing of Johnson.
So you do agree that the outrageous number of avoidable deaths that the British government is responsible for is something that they should be held accountable for?
No I don't as I don't consider them to be "outrageous" or ultimately what I would consider to be "avoidable".
Comparatively high to others, at this precise moment in time, yes. Expected, yes.
We have a habit of making our governments "accountable" every 4 or 5 years. If your belief is shared by the majority of people come judgement day then you'll be the first to celebrate I'm sure.
Expected? The fourth worst in the world? This country is well and truly up shit creek if your disgusting complacency about such disastrous performance is widely shared.
Except fourth in the world is not true. There is no semblance of truth to it whatsoever so only someone trying to lie to score partisan points would use that claim.
4th is a frequently quoted (by reputable sources) current estimate of where we stand. It can be disputed - as all precise country comparisons can be - but it's not a bad faith claim. You, OTOH, with nonsense such as "there is no semblance of truth to it whatsoever", are lying.
Show me how you can get 4th from that? Or do you think we should be using the guesstimate trackers that we know are missing half or more of some countries deaths?
Which matters more for you: how many people have actually died (excess deaths) or using figures you know are wrong because they put Britain in a bad light (recorded Covid19 deaths)?
I have two very strong suspicions.
a) if the 'official' Covid deaths on Worldometer showed the UK with a much lower death rate than others, you would be trumpeting the government's success ad infinitum, regardless of what excess deaths showed (currently).
b) you will emphatically deny a).
If I did and I was using Worldometer figures that were BS then you would be right to correct the record and point out that they're bullshit.
Everyone agreed early on, before figures showed anything, that the one gold standard true metric during a pandemic is excess deaths. Because some countries (like the UK) do a good job of testing for and accurately recording cause of death, others do not.
What matters more to you:
a) how many have actually died in real life?
b) how many Worldometers claims have died?
a). But neither you, nor I, know how we compare relative to other countries on that measure yet, and we won't for some time. So you going on about it is no different from those going on about b).
We don't know everything but there's a substantial amount of data there.
Italy until 30/11/20 had 157 excess deaths per 100k population. Britain until 22/01/21 had 160 excess deaths per 100k population.
Given the figures that have come out from Italy in December and January it seems reasonable to expect more than 3 deaths per 100k in the eight weeks they have missing from the data.
The problem with doing it on "per 100k" is that it flatters those with younger populations. I'd do it percentage-wise personally.
Somebody could write a thesis trying to figure out a sensible way to compare countries controlling for factors.
Any comparison that doesn't control for age profile, population density, care home population and obesity is going to be simplistic at best.
Its too early to judge how the UK has performed but being reasonable controlling for key variables I'd suggest the UK is distinctly average. Could have done better on some issues, worse on others.
We shouldn't be surprised by the increase in British willingness to get vaccinated. There's nothing as effective as stuffing it to the EU for encouraging Brits to do something.
I said to Dave the best way to win the referendum was to tell the public that the French wanted us to Leave.
Remain landslide.
This whole bashing the French thing is a peculiar middle class Tory obsession. There's a fair bit of suspicion even paranoia amongst the public towards our Gallic cousins but most people have got better things to do.
I agree. I absolutely love France, the country, and like the French; I thought I was alone on here, but maybe not. Since I started posting on here, I've never understood the animosity and, sometimes, bile aimed at the French. I guess some of it is meant to be amusing, but still. Most strange.
I was a Francophile up until the age of 15.
I voluntarily chose to learn the French language, I love the food, the country but when in 1994 as a callow school student my school arranged a trip to Normandy to coincide with the 50th anniversary of D-Day.
I was genuinely moved and humbled walking around places like the American and Commonwealth cemeteries in places like Colleville-sur-Mer and Bayeux, seeing the cliffs at Pointe du Hoc, it had a profound effect on me, it showed war isn't all glory but lots of sacrifice.
One evening on that trip, I heard a bunch of Frenchmen laughing and making derogatory comments the Anglos and Los Rosbifs, it pissed me off, I got the feeling that they would have preferred to have remained under German control than liberated by the Anglos.
Questions from one who knows nothing of this procedure:
1. Is it really as simple as making such a request of the solicitors? 2. Does it require unanimity amongst the Committee members (i.e. could objections from the SNP members thwart the request)? 3. Does the Crown Office have any power to obstruct the request? 4. If the Committee obtains the information then does a concept of Parliamentary privilege exist in the devolved set-up which would enable it to discuss and to publish said information openly, without fear of prosecution for contempt of court?
We shouldn't be surprised by the increase in British willingness to get vaccinated. There's nothing as effective as stuffing it to the EU for encouraging Brits to do something.
I said to Dave the best way to win the referendum was to tell the public that the French wanted us to Leave.
Remain landslide.
This whole bashing the French thing is a peculiar middle class Tory obsession. There's a fair bit of suspicion even paranoia amongst the public towards our Gallic cousins but most people have got better things to do.
I agree. I absolutely love France, the country, and like the French; I thought I was alone on here, but maybe not. Since I started posting on here, I've never understood the animosity and, sometimes, bile aimed at the French. I guess some of it is meant to be amusing, but still. Most strange.
I was a Francophile up until the age of 15.
I voluntarily chose to learn the French language, I love the food, the country but when in 1994 as a callow school student my school arranged a trip to Normandy to coincide with the 50th anniversary of D-Day.
I was genuinely moved and humbled walking around places like the American and Commonwealth cemeteries in places like Colleville-sur-Mer and Bayeux, seeing the cliffs at Pointe du Hoc, it had a profound effect on me, it showed war isn't all glory but lots of sacrifice.
One evening on that trip, I heard a bunch of Frenchmen laughing and making derogatory comments the Anglos and Los Rosbifs, it pissed me off, I got the feeling that they would have preferred to have remained under German control than liberated by the Anglos.
Hence my lifelong dislike of the French.
Fair enough, but seems like an over-reaction to a small subset of the French. Rather like foreigners over here taking lifelong umbrage at the English because they were vilified by a bunch of Leeds supporters...
We shouldn't be surprised by the increase in British willingness to get vaccinated. There's nothing as effective as stuffing it to the EU for encouraging Brits to do something.
I said to Dave the best way to win the referendum was to tell the public that the French wanted us to Leave.
Remain landslide.
This whole bashing the French thing is a peculiar middle class Tory obsession. There's a fair bit of suspicion even paranoia amongst the public towards our Gallic cousins but most people have got better things to do.
I agree. I absolutely love France, the country, and like the French; I thought I was alone on here, but maybe not. Since I started posting on here, I've never understood the animosity and, sometimes, bile aimed at the French. I guess some of it is meant to be amusing, but still. Most strange.
I was a Francophile up until the age of 15.
I voluntarily chose to learn the French language, I love the food, the country but when in 1994 as a callow school student my school arranged a trip to Normandy to coincide with the 50th anniversary of D-Day.
I was genuinely moved and humbled walking around places like the American and Commonwealth cemeteries in places like Colleville-sur-Mer and Bayeux, seeing the cliffs at Pointe du Hoc, it had a profound effect on me, it showed war isn't all glory but lots of sacrifice.
One evening on that trip, I heard a bunch of Frenchmen laughing and making derogatory comments the Anglos and Los Rosbifs, it pissed me off, I got the feeling that they would have preferred to have remained under German control than liberated by the Anglos.
One evening over 25 years ago has coloured your whole opinion of a nation? You should try to to get over it and move on.
The French and Brits are so very much alike. Not surprising given the proximity and shared heritage.
We shouldn't be surprised by the increase in British willingness to get vaccinated. There's nothing as effective as stuffing it to the EU for encouraging Brits to do something.
I said to Dave the best way to win the referendum was to tell the public that the French wanted us to Leave.
Remain landslide.
This whole bashing the French thing is a peculiar middle class Tory obsession. There's a fair bit of suspicion even paranoia amongst the public towards our Gallic cousins but most people have got better things to do.
I agree. I absolutely love France, the country, and like the French; I thought I was alone on here, but maybe not. Since I started posting on here, I've never understood the animosity and, sometimes, bile aimed at the French. I guess some of it is meant to be amusing, but still. Most strange.
I was a Francophile up until the age of 15.
I voluntarily chose to learn the French language, I love the food, the country but when in 1994 as a callow school student my school arranged a trip to Normandy to coincide with the 50th anniversary of D-Day.
I was genuinely moved and humbled walking around places like the American and Commonwealth cemeteries in places like Colleville-sur-Mer and Bayeux, seeing the cliffs at Pointe du Hoc, it had a profound effect on me, it showed war isn't all glory but lots of sacrifice.
One evening on that trip, I heard a bunch of Frenchmen laughing and making derogatory comments the Anglos and Los Rosbifs, it pissed me off, I got the feeling that they would have preferred to have remained under German control than liberated by the Anglos.
One evening over 25 years ago has coloured your whole opinion of a nation? You should try to to get over it and move on.
The French and Brits are so very much alike. Not surprising given the proximity and shared heritage.
I visit France a lot, it is a common feeling shared by many French.
Questions from one who knows nothing of this procedure:
1. Is it really as simple as making such a request of the solicitors? 2. Does it require unanimity amongst the Committee members (i.e. could objections from the SNP members thwart the request)? 3. Does the Crown Office have any power to obstruct the request? 4. If the Committee obtains the information then does a concept of Parliamentary privilege exist in the devolved set-up which would enable it to discuss and to publish said information openly, without fear of prosecution for contempt of court?
We shouldn't be surprised by the increase in British willingness to get vaccinated. There's nothing as effective as stuffing it to the EU for encouraging Brits to do something.
I said to Dave the best way to win the referendum was to tell the public that the French wanted us to Leave.
Remain landslide.
This whole bashing the French thing is a peculiar middle class Tory obsession. There's a fair bit of suspicion even paranoia amongst the public towards our Gallic cousins but most people have got better things to do.
I agree. I absolutely love France, the country, and like the French; I thought I was alone on here, but maybe not. Since I started posting on here, I've never understood the animosity and, sometimes, bile aimed at the French. I guess some of it is meant to be amusing, but still. Most strange.
I was a Francophile up until the age of 15.
I voluntarily chose to learn the French language, I love the food, the country but when in 1994 as a callow school student my school arranged a trip to Normandy to coincide with the 50th anniversary of D-Day.
I was genuinely moved and humbled walking around places like the American and Commonwealth cemeteries in places like Colleville-sur-Mer and Bayeux, seeing the cliffs at Pointe du Hoc, it had a profound effect on me, it showed war isn't all glory but lots of sacrifice.
One evening on that trip, I heard a bunch of Frenchmen laughing and making derogatory comments the Anglos and Los Rosbifs, it pissed me off, I got the feeling that they would have preferred to have remained under German control than liberated by the Anglos.
One evening over 25 years ago has coloured your whole opinion of a nation? You should try to to get over it and move on.
The French and Brits are so very much alike. Not surprising given the proximity and shared heritage.
I visit France a lot, it is a common feeling shared by many French.
And many Brits dislike the French. We've established that.
For all that I respect most of your views, as expressed in your posts, I find your periodic stereotyped abuse of the French rather juvenile tbh.
We shouldn't be surprised by the increase in British willingness to get vaccinated. There's nothing as effective as stuffing it to the EU for encouraging Brits to do something.
I said to Dave the best way to win the referendum was to tell the public that the French wanted us to Leave.
Remain landslide.
This whole bashing the French thing is a peculiar middle class Tory obsession. There's a fair bit of suspicion even paranoia amongst the public towards our Gallic cousins but most people have got better things to do.
I agree. I absolutely love France, the country, and like the French; I thought I was alone on here, but maybe not. Since I started posting on here, I've never understood the animosity and, sometimes, bile aimed at the French. I guess some of it is meant to be amusing, but still. Most strange.
I was a Francophile up until the age of 15.
I voluntarily chose to learn the French language, I love the food, the country but when in 1994 as a callow school student my school arranged a trip to Normandy to coincide with the 50th anniversary of D-Day.
I was genuinely moved and humbled walking around places like the American and Commonwealth cemeteries in places like Colleville-sur-Mer and Bayeux, seeing the cliffs at Pointe du Hoc, it had a profound effect on me, it showed war isn't all glory but lots of sacrifice.
One evening on that trip, I heard a bunch of Frenchmen laughing and making derogatory comments the Anglos and Los Rosbifs, it pissed me off, I got the feeling that they would have preferred to have remained under German control than liberated by the Anglos.
One evening over 25 years ago has coloured your whole opinion of a nation? You should try to to get over it and move on.
The French and Brits are so very much alike. Not surprising given the proximity and shared heritage.
And the similarly is what leads to the mutual love-hate relationship and the somewhat pathetic attempts to exaggerate the differences.
I see the Guardian says the Begum ruling is “controversial”
This is one of those special Guardian word-definitions, where “controversial” means “it dismays three people in Islington”
The view of the court about the respect to be given to the views and judgment of Ministers is something of a throw back and may cause ripples. It is not easy to reconcile that view with the unanimous view of the Court in the Prorogation case, to take an example.
The court over-reached with the prorogation case; this time they are exactly right. These difficult executive decisions must be made by people who are democratically accountable
These two cases are easily reconciled.
In both cases the court found it had the power to intervene. It took the view that it should intervene in the prorogation case because the government was taking the piss (which it was): the government's refusal to give any account under oath for its actions may well have proven fatal to its case. You seem to have forgotten that at the time of the purported prorogation Britain had a Prime Minister who had not been elected at a general election, who did not command a majority in Parliament and indeed had not won a vote in Parliament pursuing a policy that had not been put before the British public and using prorogation as a tool to impose that irreversibly.
In the present case it took the view that the government had acted within the wide latitude granted to governments when taking decisions. Which, given that the Home Secretary was exercising statutory powers given to them in an extreme case, is not all that surprising.
The main consequence of the prorogation case was political. The public decided, unlike in the USA, that they were AOK with self-coups. As a result Britain now has a government with a light attachment to democracy and an extreme aversion to any form of accountability enthusiastically supported by a self-radicalised posse who are quite willing to overlook anything it does, up to and including the avoidable deaths of tens of thousands.
Nice example of ensuring people wont pay attention to your solidly put points because you wanted to indulge in unrelated theatrical condemnation.
Now you can pretend to be affronted when people ignore your good first paras, even though that was presumably your intention and you want Brexiteers to rage at you so you can respond in turn.
Well, each of us has fun in their own way i suppose.
The last bit is the important bit. Tens of thousands of people have died avoidable deaths, but the government's supporters simply don't think that's as important as supporting the government.
I am staggered at the self-degradation of these partisans.
Pot meet kettle. I assume the Italians, French, Germans, Americans (need I go on?) who died were all unavoidable deaths? Or maybe. just maybe there is a nasty virus in worldwide circulation causing epic problems to all governments. Ours has not performed well, I think most would accept that, but they are not the only ones to struggle in this pandemic. At least we have one of the most open and trustworthy reporting systems. How many Chinese died in Wuhan province? How many Spaniards have died (unclear reporting, and a suggestion that that true figure is far higher than the official one? I get that you hate Brexit and the current government, but you are one of the most blinkered on this site. You are an intelligent man, but your own lack of self awareness is stark.
Britain has done exceptionally badly, in the bottommost tier of countries in its response to Covid-19. Only the most crazed zealots would suggest otherwise.
Sadly, many of those crazed zealots infest this site. Here's the sort of problem that they're determined to avoid discussing:
I raised this this morning but the hypothesis of that comment that this is something that could have been avoided is at best unproven. As far as we can tell what happened was that Kent variant took a much greater hold in this country than elsewhere, it was far more infectious and possibly marginally more dangerous.
Your default assumption that this was a consequence of government incompetence or ineptitude may prove to be correct but it is an assumption. The UK has the best genomic analysis in the world. By that time (December) it had amongst the best test and trace and was one of the very highest levels of testing. And yet we were still caught with our trousers down. Incompetence? Maybe but it is possible that we did our very best and were simply unlucky.
My memory is good enough to remember early December, when cases in Britain were obviously rising and the government was resisting tightening up. I remember the Prime Minister mocking the Leader of the Opposition for suggesting the same thing.
It was obvious what was happening at the time. And untold thousands paid with their lives because the Prime Minister couldn't bear to do the unpopular but necessary thing.
I'm sure you're diligently noting down in your ledger the untold thousands of EU citizens who will perish completely unnecessarily due to the EU, and various Member State governments, putting political ideology and dogma ahead of the lives of their citizens.
Your position the other night was that this was a pandemic and as such a natural phenomenon for which no government could be blamed for anything at all. Have you yet moved on from that ridiculous position?
Not at all. I'm just naively assuming you must be doing as I mentioned as a logical extension of your criticisms of the UK government.
If you're not then it doesn't bother me, but it would be interesting to know. Unless of course there's axes to be ground.
I don't blame any government for anything as it happens. No government is deliberately seeking to kill their citizens. All are doing what they consider to be the best at the time they make any decision, in rapidly changing situations, with new and constantly evolving scientific evidence or theories.
But if there's an axe to be ground then so be it. Fill your boots. It won't assuage your evident hate of the UK government though. Use your vote instead. If enough people agree with you then democracy will have its say.
I have a feeling though that it won't be your current angst that'll be the undoing of Johnson.
So you do agree that the outrageous number of avoidable deaths that the British government is responsible for is something that they should be held accountable for?
No I don't as I don't consider them to be "outrageous" or ultimately what I would consider to be "avoidable".
Comparatively high to others, at this precise moment in time, yes. Expected, yes.
We have a habit of making our governments "accountable" every 4 or 5 years. If your belief is shared by the majority of people come judgement day then you'll be the first to celebrate I'm sure.
Expected? The fourth worst in the world? This country is well and truly up shit creek if your disgusting complacency about such disastrous performance is widely shared.
Except fourth in the world is not true. There is no semblance of truth to it whatsoever so only someone trying to lie to score partisan points would use that claim.
4th is a frequently quoted (by reputable sources) current estimate of where we stand. It can be disputed - as all precise country comparisons can be - but it's not a bad faith claim. You, OTOH, with nonsense such as "there is no semblance of truth to it whatsoever", are lying.
Show me how you can get 4th from that? Or do you think we should be using the guesstimate trackers that we know are missing half or more of some countries deaths?
Which matters more for you: how many people have actually died (excess deaths) or using figures you know are wrong because they put Britain in a bad light (recorded Covid19 deaths)?
I have two very strong suspicions.
a) if the 'official' Covid deaths on Worldometer showed the UK with a much lower death rate than others, you would be trumpeting the government's success ad infinitum, regardless of what excess deaths showed (currently).
b) you will emphatically deny a).
If I did and I was using Worldometer figures that were BS then you would be right to correct the record and point out that they're bullshit.
Everyone agreed early on, before figures showed anything, that the one gold standard true metric during a pandemic is excess deaths. Because some countries (like the UK) do a good job of testing for and accurately recording cause of death, others do not.
What matters more to you:
a) how many have actually died in real life?
b) how many Worldometers claims have died?
a). But neither you, nor I, know how we compare relative to other countries on that measure yet, and we won't for some time. So you going on about it is no different from those going on about b).
We don't know everything but there's a substantial amount of data there.
Italy until 30/11/20 had 157 excess deaths per 100k population. Britain until 22/01/21 had 160 excess deaths per 100k population.
Given the figures that have come out from Italy in December and January it seems reasonable to expect more than 3 deaths per 100k in the eight weeks they have missing from the data.
The problem with doing it on "per 100k" is that it flatters those with younger populations. I'd do it percentage-wise personally.
Somebody could write a thesis trying to figure out a sensible way to compare countries controlling for factors.
Any comparison that doesn't control for age profile, population density, care home population and obesity is going to be simplistic at best.
Its too early to judge how the UK has performed but being reasonable controlling for key variables I'd suggest the UK is distinctly average. Could have done better on some issues, worse on others.
My guess, and it's just a guess FWIW, is that (when it's all over) we will have performed better than the US, Sweden, Italy and Spain, but probably worse than Germany, and the Netherlands and the rest of Scandinavia.
However, we will also have put the bug behind us by the end of May, while many of those other countries will only beat it by the end of Summer.
On thread: It's pleasant, after the last few years, to have something which as a nation we can broadly agree on, and even feel a sense of shared endeavour. Lefties and Righties*, leavers and remainers, lockdown sceptics and lockdown enthusiasts; most of us can agree that the vaccination drive is a good thing and that its participants - especially the elderly who were in its vanguard - are doing a good, useful and, in a small way, brave thing. The right can cheer that it has been made possible by private sector enterprise; the left that it is being carried out by the public sector. And while we wouldn't want other countries programmes to go badly, it is certainly very welcome that by international comparison ours is going well. It's also nice that we can all, in our own way, contribute to the success of the programme just by getting jabbed.
Questions from one who knows nothing of this procedure:
1. Is it really as simple as making such a request of the solicitors? 2. Does it require unanimity amongst the Committee members (i.e. could objections from the SNP members thwart the request)? 3. Does the Crown Office have any power to obstruct the request? 4. If the Committee obtains the information then does a concept of Parliamentary privilege exist in the devolved set-up which would enable it to discuss and to publish said information openly, without fear of prosecution for contempt of court?
We shouldn't be surprised by the increase in British willingness to get vaccinated. There's nothing as effective as stuffing it to the EU for encouraging Brits to do something.
I said to Dave the best way to win the referendum was to tell the public that the French wanted us to Leave.
Remain landslide.
This whole bashing the French thing is a peculiar middle class Tory obsession. There's a fair bit of suspicion even paranoia amongst the public towards our Gallic cousins but most people have got better things to do.
I agree. I absolutely love France, the country, and like the French; I thought I was alone on here, but maybe not. Since I started posting on here, I've never understood the animosity and, sometimes, bile aimed at the French. I guess some of it is meant to be amusing, but still. Most strange.
< hushed tones >
I secretly find it a bit childish too, though there are times when they deserve it, and Macron's recent behaviour certainly counts. We're rival siblings in a way, and on that subject doesn't Nero tell us, in Racine's Britannicus, 'j’embrasse mon rival, mais c’est pour l’étouffer'?
We shouldn't be surprised by the increase in British willingness to get vaccinated. There's nothing as effective as stuffing it to the EU for encouraging Brits to do something.
I said to Dave the best way to win the referendum was to tell the public that the French wanted us to Leave.
Remain landslide.
This whole bashing the French thing is a peculiar middle class Tory obsession. There's a fair bit of suspicion even paranoia amongst the public towards our Gallic cousins but most people have got better things to do.
I agree. I absolutely love France, the country, and like the French; I thought I was alone on here, but maybe not. Since I started posting on here, I've never understood the animosity and, sometimes, bile aimed at the French. I guess some of it is meant to be amusing, but still. Most strange.
< hushed tones >
I secretly find it a bit childish too, though there are times when they deserve it, and Macron's recent behaviour certainly counts. We're rival siblings in a way, and on that subject doesn't Nero tell us, in Racine's Britannicus, 'j’embrasse mon rival, mais c’est pour l’étouffer'?
I’m quite confident of rather long immunity. I believe others have posted about sars immunity lasting 20 years or so. Certainly we are now a year in with no evidence of widespread re infection. Also my colleague who had Covid in March 2020 mounted a very strong reaction on immunisation. A year is a minimum I’d think...
That wasn't the issue to which I was referring. The vaccines do two key things as I see it - one, if you catch the virus, the effects are substantially mitigated and two, you become significantly less able to transmit the virus. With these two keys in place, it's all about "returning to normal" (horrible concept, let's have a new normal, not the boring old normal).
Once we are all "cheek by jowl" as the Prime Minister once put it, the vaccines prevent the re-igniting of Covid but that works only as long as the vaccines work. Once the immunity declines or wears off, we'll be back to large outbreaks among people bunched together indoors in confined spaces. This isn't a risk for summer but it's a risk for autumn and next winter because we don't know how long the immunity provided by the vaccines will last.
The first vaccines were only administered less than 3 months ago - let's say where we are in six months.
We shouldn't be surprised by the increase in British willingness to get vaccinated. There's nothing as effective as stuffing it to the EU for encouraging Brits to do something.
I said to Dave the best way to win the referendum was to tell the public that the French wanted us to Leave.
Remain landslide.
This whole bashing the French thing is a peculiar middle class Tory obsession. There's a fair bit of suspicion even paranoia amongst the public towards our Gallic cousins but most people have got better things to do.
I agree. I absolutely love France, the country, and like the French; I thought I was alone on here, but maybe not. Since I started posting on here, I've never understood the animosity and, sometimes, bile aimed at the French. I guess some of it is meant to be amusing, but still. Most strange.
< hushed tones >
I secretly find it a bit childish too, though there are times when they deserve it, and Macron's recent behaviour certainly counts. We're rival siblings in a way, and on that subject doesn't Nero tell us, in Racine's Britannicus, 'j’embrasse mon rival, mais c’est pour l’étouffer'?
I see it as the banter of rivals.
Yes. Note also that if someone picks on the French it annoys us, and we defend them, because picking on the French is our job.
We shouldn't be surprised by the increase in British willingness to get vaccinated. There's nothing as effective as stuffing it to the EU for encouraging Brits to do something.
I said to Dave the best way to win the referendum was to tell the public that the French wanted us to Leave.
Remain landslide.
This whole bashing the French thing is a peculiar middle class Tory obsession. There's a fair bit of suspicion even paranoia amongst the public towards our Gallic cousins but most people have got better things to do.
I agree. I absolutely love France, the country, and like the French; I thought I was alone on here, but maybe not. Since I started posting on here, I've never understood the animosity and, sometimes, bile aimed at the French. I guess some of it is meant to be amusing, but still. Most strange.
< hushed tones >
I secretly find it a bit childish too, though there are times when they deserve it, and Macron's recent behaviour certainly counts. We're rival siblings in a way, and on that subject doesn't Nero tell us, in Racine's Britannicus, 'j’embrasse mon rival, mais c’est pour l’étouffer'?
The only thing I have against the French is that their leaders don't seem to like us very much. But really, of all the neighbours we could have, we've done ok.
Fantastic! Salmond advises the committee to ask his solicitors for for any information withheld by branches of government, and tells them that the Scotland Act enables this
He's almost a characterisation of the Revenge is a dish best served cold idea.
Are these really the explosive revelations that Salmond clearly thinks they are? I’ve always found his smug, self-satisfied demeanour repellent - and all the more so in the light of the revelations of how he behaved around female subordinates.
Did you listen to it. A masterclass.
From the witness yes. Head & shoulders above the current crop (both sides of the border)
Some of his questioners, much less so.....I thought Murdo & Jackie stood out - some of the others did too - for the wrong reasons.....
Enemies enemies make strange bedfellows. You of all people Carlotta standing four square behind one of the most appalling misogynists* in British politics.
(Forgive me quoting Ruth Davidson)
I think even "appalling misogynists" deserve "due process" and "the rule of law".
Don't you?
The hypocrisy of the Tories on here has become one of the great features of the site.All the bright Tories peeled off after Brexit but the ones that are left are a gift!
Now that Salmond's put the boot into the Nats what about a seat in the HoL? Minister for women perhaps?
The Roman Polanski award for treatment of women, perhaps?
We shouldn't be surprised by the increase in British willingness to get vaccinated. There's nothing as effective as stuffing it to the EU for encouraging Brits to do something.
I said to Dave the best way to win the referendum was to tell the public that the French wanted us to Leave.
Remain landslide.
This whole bashing the French thing is a peculiar middle class Tory obsession. There's a fair bit of suspicion even paranoia amongst the public towards our Gallic cousins but most people have got better things to do.
I agree. I absolutely love France, the country, and like the French; I thought I was alone on here, but maybe not. Since I started posting on here, I've never understood the animosity and, sometimes, bile aimed at the French. I guess some of it is meant to be amusing, but still. Most strange.
< hushed tones >
I secretly find it a bit childish too, though there are times when they deserve it, and Macron's recent behaviour certainly counts. We're rival siblings in a way, and on that subject doesn't Nero tell us, in Racine's Britannicus, 'j’embrasse mon rival, mais c’est pour l’étouffer'?
I see it as the banter of rivals.
Yes. Note also that if someone picks on the French it annoys us, and we defend them, because that’s our job.
Well in the past certainly, not so sure people would be so willing to go rescue europe again
We shouldn't be surprised by the increase in British willingness to get vaccinated. There's nothing as effective as stuffing it to the EU for encouraging Brits to do something.
I said to Dave the best way to win the referendum was to tell the public that the French wanted us to Leave.
Remain landslide.
This whole bashing the French thing is a peculiar middle class Tory obsession. There's a fair bit of suspicion even paranoia amongst the public towards our Gallic cousins but most people have got better things to do.
I agree. I absolutely love France, the country, and like the French; I thought I was alone on here, but maybe not. Since I started posting on here, I've never understood the animosity and, sometimes, bile aimed at the French. I guess some of it is meant to be amusing, but still. Most strange.
< hushed tones >
I secretly find it a bit childish too, though there are times when they deserve it, and Macron's recent behaviour certainly counts. We're rival siblings in a way, and on that subject doesn't Nero tell us, in Racine's Britannicus, 'j’embrasse mon rival, mais c’est pour l’étouffer'?
I see it as the banter of rivals.
Yes. Note also that if someone picks on the French it annoys us, and we defend them, because that’s our job.
Well in the past certainly, not so sure people would be so willing to go rescue europe again
Nah, we need to continue to help the French (e.g. sending them some vaccine) if for no other reason than they’d hate it.
We shouldn't be surprised by the increase in British willingness to get vaccinated. There's nothing as effective as stuffing it to the EU for encouraging Brits to do something.
I said to Dave the best way to win the referendum was to tell the public that the French wanted us to Leave.
Remain landslide.
This whole bashing the French thing is a peculiar middle class Tory obsession. There's a fair bit of suspicion even paranoia amongst the public towards our Gallic cousins but most people have got better things to do.
I agree. I absolutely love France, the country, and like the French; I thought I was alone on here, but maybe not. Since I started posting on here, I've never understood the animosity and, sometimes, bile aimed at the French. I guess some of it is meant to be amusing, but still. Most strange.
< hushed tones >
I secretly find it a bit childish too, though there are times when they deserve it, and Macron's recent behaviour certainly counts. We're rival siblings in a way, and on that subject doesn't Nero tell us, in Racine's Britannicus, 'j’embrasse mon rival, mais c’est pour l’étouffer'?
I see it as the banter of rivals.
Yes. Note also that if someone picks on the French it annoys us, and we defend them, because that’s our job.
Well in the past certainly, not so sure people would be so willing to go rescue europe again
I don't think things would have worked out well for us if we'd sued for peace with Hitler. War was - ultimately - very much to our benefit.
We shouldn't be surprised by the increase in British willingness to get vaccinated. There's nothing as effective as stuffing it to the EU for encouraging Brits to do something.
I said to Dave the best way to win the referendum was to tell the public that the French wanted us to Leave.
Remain landslide.
This whole bashing the French thing is a peculiar middle class Tory obsession. There's a fair bit of suspicion even paranoia amongst the public towards our Gallic cousins but most people have got better things to do.
I agree. I absolutely love France, the country, and like the French; I thought I was alone on here, but maybe not. Since I started posting on here, I've never understood the animosity and, sometimes, bile aimed at the French. I guess some of it is meant to be amusing, but still. Most strange.
< hushed tones >
I secretly find it a bit childish too, though there are times when they deserve it, and Macron's recent behaviour certainly counts. We're rival siblings in a way, and on that subject doesn't Nero tell us, in Racine's Britannicus, 'j’embrasse mon rival, mais c’est pour l’étouffer'?
I see it as the banter of rivals.
Yes. Note also that if someone picks on the French it annoys us, and we defend them, because that’s our job.
Well in the past certainly, not so sure people would be so willing to go rescue europe again
I don't think things would have worked out well for us if we'd sued for peace with Hitler. War was - ultimately - very much to our benefit.
Was it? I mean it bankrupted us and cost us the India and most of the Empire.
I’m quite confident of rather long immunity. I believe others have posted about sars immunity lasting 20 years or so. Certainly we are now a year in with no evidence of widespread re infection. Also my colleague who had Covid in March 2020 mounted a very strong reaction on immunisation. A year is a minimum I’d think...
That wasn't the issue to which I was referring. The vaccines do two key things as I see it - one, if you catch the virus, the effects are substantially mitigated and two, you become significantly less able to transmit the virus. With these two keys in place, it's all about "returning to normal" (horrible concept, let's have a new normal, not the boring old normal).
Once we are all "cheek by jowl" as the Prime Minister once put it, the vaccines prevent the re-igniting of Covid but that works only as long as the vaccines work. Once the immunity declines or wears off, we'll be back to large outbreaks among people bunched together indoors in confined spaces. This isn't a risk for summer but it's a risk for autumn and next winter because we don't know how long the immunity provided by the vaccines will last.
The first vaccines were only administered less than 3 months ago - let's say where we are in six months.
The immunity doesn't disappear all in one go, it will slowly fade with time. (And may well last a decade, as tetanus, or for life, as with measels, polio, etc.)
We'll have booster shots from time-to-time. Big deal.
Have to say still no invitation for this 60+ to get a vaccine. Hearing widespread stories of those in their 50s getting a vaccine and the unwillingness of Government to publish detailed figures on the progress of vaccination does make me suspicious the rollout programme is proceeding rapidly in some areas and less well in others.
The cohort of those aged 16-64 with underlying health conditions is admittedly one of the largest at over 7 million nationally but progress through this and down the population appears inconsistent to this observer whatever the national numbers are saying..
I believe those who have previously voted LibDem are not eligible for vaccination, so that's probably the reason.
What's happening is that GCHQ is monitoring internet chat, and every time someone complains about not having had the vaccine yet they get put to the back of the queue.
We shouldn't be surprised by the increase in British willingness to get vaccinated. There's nothing as effective as stuffing it to the EU for encouraging Brits to do something.
I said to Dave the best way to win the referendum was to tell the public that the French wanted us to Leave.
Remain landslide.
This whole bashing the French thing is a peculiar middle class Tory obsession. There's a fair bit of suspicion even paranoia amongst the public towards our Gallic cousins but most people have got better things to do.
I agree. I absolutely love France, the country, and like the French; I thought I was alone on here, but maybe not. Since I started posting on here, I've never understood the animosity and, sometimes, bile aimed at the French. I guess some of it is meant to be amusing, but still. Most strange.
< hushed tones >
I secretly find it a bit childish too, though there are times when they deserve it, and Macron's recent behaviour certainly counts. We're rival siblings in a way, and on that subject doesn't Nero tell us, in Racine's Britannicus, 'j’embrasse mon rival, mais c’est pour l’étouffer'?
I see it as the banter of rivals.
Yes. Note also that if someone picks on the French it annoys us, and we defend them, because that’s our job.
Well in the past certainly, not so sure people would be so willing to go rescue europe again
I don't think things would have worked out well for us if we'd sued for peace with Hitler. War was - ultimately - very much to our benefit.
Indeed.
Dominion by C J Sansom paints a very believable picture of how things might well have been had Britain sued for peace with Hitler. Good book.
We shouldn't be surprised by the increase in British willingness to get vaccinated. There's nothing as effective as stuffing it to the EU for encouraging Brits to do something.
I said to Dave the best way to win the referendum was to tell the public that the French wanted us to Leave.
Remain landslide.
This whole bashing the French thing is a peculiar middle class Tory obsession. There's a fair bit of suspicion even paranoia amongst the public towards our Gallic cousins but most people have got better things to do.
I agree. I absolutely love France, the country, and like the French; I thought I was alone on here, but maybe not. Since I started posting on here, I've never understood the animosity and, sometimes, bile aimed at the French. I guess some of it is meant to be amusing, but still. Most strange.
< hushed tones >
I secretly find it a bit childish too, though there are times when they deserve it, and Macron's recent behaviour certainly counts. We're rival siblings in a way, and on that subject doesn't Nero tell us, in Racine's Britannicus, 'j’embrasse mon rival, mais c’est pour l’étouffer'?
I see it as the banter of rivals.
Yes. Note also that if someone picks on the French it annoys us, and we defend them, because that’s our job.
Well in the past certainly, not so sure people would be so willing to go rescue europe again
I don't think things would have worked out well for us if we'd sued for peace with Hitler. War was - ultimately - very much to our benefit.
I didn't claim we shouldn't have however now the eu in general and france in particular have buddied up with china which is the next enemy of the west.....not so sure we should help out
We shouldn't be surprised by the increase in British willingness to get vaccinated. There's nothing as effective as stuffing it to the EU for encouraging Brits to do something.
I said to Dave the best way to win the referendum was to tell the public that the French wanted us to Leave.
Remain landslide.
This whole bashing the French thing is a peculiar middle class Tory obsession. There's a fair bit of suspicion even paranoia amongst the public towards our Gallic cousins but most people have got better things to do.
I agree. I absolutely love France, the country, and like the French; I thought I was alone on here, but maybe not. Since I started posting on here, I've never understood the animosity and, sometimes, bile aimed at the French. I guess some of it is meant to be amusing, but still. Most strange.
< hushed tones >
I secretly find it a bit childish too, though there are times when they deserve it, and Macron's recent behaviour certainly counts. We're rival siblings in a way, and on that subject doesn't Nero tell us, in Racine's Britannicus, 'j’embrasse mon rival, mais c’est pour l’étouffer'?
I see it as the banter of rivals.
Yes. Note also that if someone picks on the French it annoys us, and we defend them, because that’s our job.
Well in the past certainly, not so sure people would be so willing to go rescue europe again
I don't think things would have worked out well for us if we'd sued for peace with Hitler. War was - ultimately - very much to our benefit.
Was it? I mean it bankrupted us and cost us the India and most of the Empire.
It didn't cost us India and the Empire, because they were going to go anyway. We would have had a belligerent behemoth on our doorstep, and that would not be fun.
Questions from one who knows nothing of this procedure:
1. Is it really as simple as making such a request of the solicitors? 2. Does it require unanimity amongst the Committee members (i.e. could objections from the SNP members thwart the request)? 3. Does the Crown Office have any power to obstruct the request? 4. If the Committee obtains the information then does a concept of Parliamentary privilege exist in the devolved set-up which would enable it to discuss and to publish said information openly, without fear of prosecution for contempt of court?
We shouldn't be surprised by the increase in British willingness to get vaccinated. There's nothing as effective as stuffing it to the EU for encouraging Brits to do something.
I said to Dave the best way to win the referendum was to tell the public that the French wanted us to Leave.
Remain landslide.
This whole bashing the French thing is a peculiar middle class Tory obsession. There's a fair bit of suspicion even paranoia amongst the public towards our Gallic cousins but most people have got better things to do.
I agree. I absolutely love France, the country, and like the French; I thought I was alone on here, but maybe not. Since I started posting on here, I've never understood the animosity and, sometimes, bile aimed at the French. I guess some of it is meant to be amusing, but still. Most strange.
< hushed tones >
I secretly find it a bit childish too, though there are times when they deserve it, and Macron's recent behaviour certainly counts. We're rival siblings in a way, and on that subject doesn't Nero tell us, in Racine's Britannicus, 'j’embrasse mon rival, mais c’est pour l’étouffer'?
I see it as the banter of rivals.
Yes. Note also that if someone picks on the French it annoys us, and we defend them, because that’s our job.
Well in the past certainly, not so sure people would be so willing to go rescue europe again
I don't think things would have worked out well for us if we'd sued for peace with Hitler. War was - ultimately - very much to our benefit.
I didn't claim we shouldn't have however now the eu in general and france in particular have buddied up with china which is the next enemy of the west.....not so sure we should help out
I'm struggling with your scenario. You worry about us having to rescue Europe from an enemy of the West, which is fair enough. But then you identify that enemy as China, and say that France and Germany are allied with it. So, who is China going to invade? Finland?
We shouldn't be surprised by the increase in British willingness to get vaccinated. There's nothing as effective as stuffing it to the EU for encouraging Brits to do something.
I said to Dave the best way to win the referendum was to tell the public that the French wanted us to Leave.
Remain landslide.
This whole bashing the French thing is a peculiar middle class Tory obsession. There's a fair bit of suspicion even paranoia amongst the public towards our Gallic cousins but most people have got better things to do.
I agree. I absolutely love France, the country, and like the French; I thought I was alone on here, but maybe not. Since I started posting on here, I've never understood the animosity and, sometimes, bile aimed at the French. I guess some of it is meant to be amusing, but still. Most strange.
< hushed tones >
I secretly find it a bit childish too, though there are times when they deserve it, and Macron's recent behaviour certainly counts. We're rival siblings in a way, and on that subject doesn't Nero tell us, in Racine's Britannicus, 'j’embrasse mon rival, mais c’est pour l’étouffer'?
I see it as the banter of rivals.
Yes. Note also that if someone picks on the French it annoys us, and we defend them, because that’s our job.
Well in the past certainly, not so sure people would be so willing to go rescue europe again
I don't think things would have worked out well for us if we'd sued for peace with Hitler. War was - ultimately - very much to our benefit.
Was it? I mean it bankrupted us and cost us the India and most of the Empire.
It didn't cost us India and the Empire, because they were going to go anyway. We would have had a belligerent behemoth on our doorstep, and that would not be fun.
Left to their own devices without the UK sticking its nose in, the Reich would have cleaned up in all of Europe, finished off the Russians and then had all the time in the world to develop their own nuclear programme. With the UK looking on - rather helpless.
Questions from one who knows nothing of this procedure:
1. Is it really as simple as making such a request of the solicitors? 2. Does it require unanimity amongst the Committee members (i.e. could objections from the SNP members thwart the request)? 3. Does the Crown Office have any power to obstruct the request? 4. If the Committee obtains the information then does a concept of Parliamentary privilege exist in the devolved set-up which would enable it to discuss and to publish said information openly, without fear of prosecution for contempt of court?
We shouldn't be surprised by the increase in British willingness to get vaccinated. There's nothing as effective as stuffing it to the EU for encouraging Brits to do something.
I said to Dave the best way to win the referendum was to tell the public that the French wanted us to Leave.
Remain landslide.
This whole bashing the French thing is a peculiar middle class Tory obsession. There's a fair bit of suspicion even paranoia amongst the public towards our Gallic cousins but most people have got better things to do.
I agree. I absolutely love France, the country, and like the French; I thought I was alone on here, but maybe not. Since I started posting on here, I've never understood the animosity and, sometimes, bile aimed at the French. I guess some of it is meant to be amusing, but still. Most strange.
< hushed tones >
I secretly find it a bit childish too, though there are times when they deserve it, and Macron's recent behaviour certainly counts. We're rival siblings in a way, and on that subject doesn't Nero tell us, in Racine's Britannicus, 'j’embrasse mon rival, mais c’est pour l’étouffer'?
I see it as the banter of rivals.
Yes. Note also that if someone picks on the French it annoys us, and we defend them, because that’s our job.
Well in the past certainly, not so sure people would be so willing to go rescue europe again
I don't think things would have worked out well for us if we'd sued for peace with Hitler. War was - ultimately - very much to our benefit.
Was it? I mean it bankrupted us and cost us the India and most of the Empire.
It didn't cost us India and the Empire, because they were going to go anyway. We would have had a belligerent behemoth on our doorstep, and that would not be fun.
Left to their own devices without the UK sticking its nose in, the Reich would have cleaned up in all of Europe, finished off the Russians and then had all the time in the world to develop their own nuclear programme. With the UK looking on - rather helpless.
All without the USA poking its nose in too.
And the UK would have been cut off from its sources of oil in the Middle East. It would have been very ugly indeed.
We shouldn't be surprised by the increase in British willingness to get vaccinated. There's nothing as effective as stuffing it to the EU for encouraging Brits to do something.
I said to Dave the best way to win the referendum was to tell the public that the French wanted us to Leave.
Remain landslide.
This whole bashing the French thing is a peculiar middle class Tory obsession. There's a fair bit of suspicion even paranoia amongst the public towards our Gallic cousins but most people have got better things to do.
I agree. I absolutely love France, the country, and like the French; I thought I was alone on here, but maybe not. Since I started posting on here, I've never understood the animosity and, sometimes, bile aimed at the French. I guess some of it is meant to be amusing, but still. Most strange.
< hushed tones >
I secretly find it a bit childish too, though there are times when they deserve it, and Macron's recent behaviour certainly counts. We're rival siblings in a way, and on that subject doesn't Nero tell us, in Racine's Britannicus, 'j’embrasse mon rival, mais c’est pour l’étouffer'?
I see it as the banter of rivals.
Yes. Note also that if someone picks on the French it annoys us, and we defend them, because that’s our job.
Well in the past certainly, not so sure people would be so willing to go rescue europe again
I don't think things would have worked out well for us if we'd sued for peace with Hitler. War was - ultimately - very much to our benefit.
Was it? I mean it bankrupted us and cost us the India and most of the Empire.
It didn't cost us India and the Empire, because they were going to go anyway. We would have had a belligerent behemoth on our doorstep, and that would not be fun.
Left to their own devices without the UK sticking its nose in, the Reich would have cleaned up in all of Europe, finished off the Russians and then had all the time in the world to develop their own nuclear programme. With the UK looking on - rather helpless.
All without the USA poking its nose in too.
Hitler started with a view that we were one of his few legitimate allies. We may have just about been able to coexist. All the more reason to be proud of my grandparent’s generation for telling him to do one.
We shouldn't be surprised by the increase in British willingness to get vaccinated. There's nothing as effective as stuffing it to the EU for encouraging Brits to do something.
I said to Dave the best way to win the referendum was to tell the public that the French wanted us to Leave.
Remain landslide.
This whole bashing the French thing is a peculiar middle class Tory obsession. There's a fair bit of suspicion even paranoia amongst the public towards our Gallic cousins but most people have got better things to do.
I agree. I absolutely love France, the country, and like the French; I thought I was alone on here, but maybe not. Since I started posting on here, I've never understood the animosity and, sometimes, bile aimed at the French. I guess some of it is meant to be amusing, but still. Most strange.
< hushed tones >
I secretly find it a bit childish too, though there are times when they deserve it, and Macron's recent behaviour certainly counts. We're rival siblings in a way, and on that subject doesn't Nero tell us, in Racine's Britannicus, 'j’embrasse mon rival, mais c’est pour l’étouffer'?
I see it as the banter of rivals.
Yes. Note also that if someone picks on the French it annoys us, and we defend them, because that’s our job.
Well in the past certainly, not so sure people would be so willing to go rescue europe again
I don't think things would have worked out well for us if we'd sued for peace with Hitler. War was - ultimately - very much to our benefit.
I didn't claim we shouldn't have however now the eu in general and france in particular have buddied up with china which is the next enemy of the west.....not so sure we should help out
I'm struggling with your scenario. You worry about us having to rescue Europe from an enemy of the West, which is fair enough. But then you identify that enemy as China, and say that France and Germany are allied with it. So, who is China going to invade? Finland?
The most likely military threat to europe is russia, if russia invades europe I suggest we let them call on china. Russia and china are both enemies of the west. Fighting a war over europe will weaken both.
Hello all! I had my first Pfizer dose yesterday. I'm only early 40s but have had some health problems so pushed up the list. The local set up was really efficient; I arrived ten minutes early and had my jab four minutes later, so six minutes before I was meant to arrive. I tried to loiter outside the centre (away from anyone) to not be so early, but got urged in by one of the volunteers. I found the whole experience unexpectedly uplifting. Everybody involved was so positive, their masks didn't seem to be hiding their smiles. I imagine only the bitterest opponents of the government/Boris/Brexit will deny the enormous success our vaccine strategy has been. I've been lurking here a while. I wanted to join the other day so I could get on the Meeks "useful list", but it seems I may have been too slow - unless the list is still alive despite his awkward departure? I'd like to respond to his insane accuation that supporters of Brexit and the current givernment have tried to kill his partner, by pointing out that his preferred policies would have been trying to kill me and many close to me by delaying our vaccinations by many months in the useless EU scheme. Was death-cult the mot-juste once?
We shouldn't be surprised by the increase in British willingness to get vaccinated. There's nothing as effective as stuffing it to the EU for encouraging Brits to do something.
I said to Dave the best way to win the referendum was to tell the public that the French wanted us to Leave.
Remain landslide.
This whole bashing the French thing is a peculiar middle class Tory obsession. There's a fair bit of suspicion even paranoia amongst the public towards our Gallic cousins but most people have got better things to do.
I agree. I absolutely love France, the country, and like the French; I thought I was alone on here, but maybe not. Since I started posting on here, I've never understood the animosity and, sometimes, bile aimed at the French. I guess some of it is meant to be amusing, but still. Most strange.
< hushed tones >
I secretly find it a bit childish too, though there are times when they deserve it, and Macron's recent behaviour certainly counts. We're rival siblings in a way, and on that subject doesn't Nero tell us, in Racine's Britannicus, 'j’embrasse mon rival, mais c’est pour l’étouffer'?
I see it as the banter of rivals.
Yes. Note also that if someone picks on the French it annoys us, and we defend them, because that’s our job.
Well in the past certainly, not so sure people would be so willing to go rescue europe again
I don't think things would have worked out well for us if we'd sued for peace with Hitler. War was - ultimately - very much to our benefit.
Was it? I mean it bankrupted us and cost us the India and most of the Empire.
For the Jewish population of this country at the very least I think the right choice was made. Given the eliminationist drive of the Nazi party they would have been at great risk had we sued for peace.
I see the Guardian says the Begum ruling is “controversial”
This is one of those special Guardian word-definitions, where “controversial” means “it dismays three people in Islington”
The view of the court about the respect to be given to the views and judgment of Ministers is something of a throw back and may cause ripples. It is not easy to reconcile that view with the unanimous view of the Court in the Prorogation case, to take an example.
The court over-reached with the prorogation case; this time they are exactly right. These difficult executive decisions must be made by people who are democratically accountable
These two cases are easily reconciled.
In both cases the court found it had the power to intervene. It took the view that it should intervene in the prorogation case because the government was taking the piss (which it was): the government's refusal to give any account under oath for its actions may well have proven fatal to its case. You seem to have forgotten that at the time of the purported prorogation Britain had a Prime Minister who had not been elected at a general election, who did not command a majority in Parliament and indeed had not won a vote in Parliament pursuing a policy that had not been put before the British public and using prorogation as a tool to impose that irreversibly.
In the present case it took the view that the government had acted within the wide latitude granted to governments when taking decisions. Which, given that the Home Secretary was exercising statutory powers given to them in an extreme case, is not all that surprising.
The main consequence of the prorogation case was political. The public decided, unlike in the USA, that they were AOK with self-coups. As a result Britain now has a government with a light attachment to democracy and an extreme aversion to any form of accountability enthusiastically supported by a self-radicalised posse who are quite willing to overlook anything it does, up to and including the avoidable deaths of tens of thousands.
Nice example of ensuring people wont pay attention to your solidly put points because you wanted to indulge in unrelated theatrical condemnation.
Now you can pretend to be affronted when people ignore your good first paras, even though that was presumably your intention and you want Brexiteers to rage at you so you can respond in turn.
Well, each of us has fun in their own way i suppose.
The last bit is the important bit. Tens of thousands of people have died avoidable deaths, but the government's supporters simply don't think that's as important as supporting the government.
I am staggered at the self-degradation of these partisans.
Pot meet kettle. I assume the Italians, French, Germans, Americans (need I go on?) who died were all unavoidable deaths? Or maybe. just maybe there is a nasty virus in worldwide circulation causing epic problems to all governments. Ours has not performed well, I think most would accept that, but they are not the only ones to struggle in this pandemic. At least we have one of the most open and trustworthy reporting systems. How many Chinese died in Wuhan province? How many Spaniards have died (unclear reporting, and a suggestion that that true figure is far higher than the official one? I get that you hate Brexit and the current government, but you are one of the most blinkered on this site. You are an intelligent man, but your own lack of self awareness is stark.
Britain has done exceptionally badly, in the bottommost tier of countries in its response to Covid-19. Only the most crazed zealots would suggest otherwise.
Sadly, many of those crazed zealots infest this site. Here's the sort of problem that they're determined to avoid discussing:
I raised this this morning but the hypothesis of that comment that this is something that could have been avoided is at best unproven. As far as we can tell what happened was that Kent variant took a much greater hold in this country than elsewhere, it was far more infectious and possibly marginally more dangerous.
Your default assumption that this was a consequence of government incompetence or ineptitude may prove to be correct but it is an assumption. The UK has the best genomic analysis in the world. By that time (December) it had amongst the best test and trace and was one of the very highest levels of testing. And yet we were still caught with our trousers down. Incompetence? Maybe but it is possible that we did our very best and were simply unlucky.
My memory is good enough to remember early December, when cases in Britain were obviously rising and the government was resisting tightening up. I remember the Prime Minister mocking the Leader of the Opposition for suggesting the same thing.
It was obvious what was happening at the time. And untold thousands paid with their lives because the Prime Minister couldn't bear to do the unpopular but necessary thing.
I'm sure you're diligently noting down in your ledger the untold thousands of EU citizens who will perish completely unnecessarily due to the EU, and various Member State governments, putting political ideology and dogma ahead of the lives of their citizens.
Your position the other night was that this was a pandemic and as such a natural phenomenon for which no government could be blamed for anything at all. Have you yet moved on from that ridiculous position?
Not at all. I'm just naively assuming you must be doing as I mentioned as a logical extension of your criticisms of the UK government.
If you're not then it doesn't bother me, but it would be interesting to know. Unless of course there's axes to be ground.
I don't blame any government for anything as it happens. No government is deliberately seeking to kill their citizens. All are doing what they consider to be the best at the time they make any decision, in rapidly changing situations, with new and constantly evolving scientific evidence or theories.
But if there's an axe to be ground then so be it. Fill your boots. It won't assuage your evident hate of the UK government though. Use your vote instead. If enough people agree with you then democracy will have its say.
I have a feeling though that it won't be your current angst that'll be the undoing of Johnson.
So you do agree that the outrageous number of avoidable deaths that the British government is responsible for is something that they should be held accountable for?
No I don't as I don't consider them to be "outrageous" or ultimately what I would consider to be "avoidable".
Comparatively high to others, at this precise moment in time, yes. Expected, yes.
We have a habit of making our governments "accountable" every 4 or 5 years. If your belief is shared by the majority of people come judgement day then you'll be the first to celebrate I'm sure.
Expected? The fourth worst in the world? This country is well and truly up shit creek if your disgusting complacency about such disastrous performance is widely shared.
Except fourth in the world is not true. There is no semblance of truth to it whatsoever so only someone trying to lie to score partisan points would use that claim.
4th is a frequently quoted (by reputable sources) current estimate of where we stand. It can be disputed - as all precise country comparisons can be - but it's not a bad faith claim. You, OTOH, with nonsense such as "there is no semblance of truth to it whatsoever", are lying.
Show me how you can get 4th from that? Or do you think we should be using the guesstimate trackers that we know are missing half or more of some countries deaths?
Which matters more for you: how many people have actually died (excess deaths) or using figures you know are wrong because they put Britain in a bad light (recorded Covid19 deaths)?
I have two very strong suspicions.
a) if the 'official' Covid deaths on Worldometer showed the UK with a much lower death rate than others, you would be trumpeting the government's success ad infinitum, regardless of what excess deaths showed (currently).
b) you will emphatically deny a).
If I did and I was using Worldometer figures that were BS then you would be right to correct the record and point out that they're bullshit.
Everyone agreed early on, before figures showed anything, that the one gold standard true metric during a pandemic is excess deaths. Because some countries (like the UK) do a good job of testing for and accurately recording cause of death, others do not.
What matters more to you:
a) how many have actually died in real life?
b) how many Worldometers claims have died?
a). But neither you, nor I, know how we compare relative to other countries on that measure yet, and we won't for some time. So you going on about it is no different from those going on about b).
We don't know everything but there's a substantial amount of data there.
Italy until 30/11/20 had 157 excess deaths per 100k population. Britain until 22/01/21 had 160 excess deaths per 100k population.
Given the figures that have come out from Italy in December and January it seems reasonable to expect more than 3 deaths per 100k in the eight weeks they have missing from the data.
The problem with doing it on "per 100k" is that it flatters those with younger populations. I'd do it percentage-wise personally.
Somebody could write a thesis trying to figure out a sensible way to compare countries controlling for factors.
Any comparison that doesn't control for age profile, population density, care home population and obesity is going to be simplistic at best.
Its too early to judge how the UK has performed but being reasonable controlling for key variables I'd suggest the UK is distinctly average. Could have done better on some issues, worse on others.
My guess, and it's just a guess FWIW, is that (when it's all over) we will have performed better than the US, Sweden, Italy and Spain, but probably worse than Germany, and the Netherlands and the rest of Scandinavia.
However, we will also have put the bug behind us by the end of May, while many of those other countries will only beat it by the end of Summer.
We shouldn't be surprised by the increase in British willingness to get vaccinated. There's nothing as effective as stuffing it to the EU for encouraging Brits to do something.
I said to Dave the best way to win the referendum was to tell the public that the French wanted us to Leave.
Remain landslide.
This whole bashing the French thing is a peculiar middle class Tory obsession. There's a fair bit of suspicion even paranoia amongst the public towards our Gallic cousins but most people have got better things to do.
I agree. I absolutely love France, the country, and like the French; I thought I was alone on here, but maybe not. Since I started posting on here, I've never understood the animosity and, sometimes, bile aimed at the French. I guess some of it is meant to be amusing, but still. Most strange.
< hushed tones >
I secretly find it a bit childish too, though there are times when they deserve it, and Macron's recent behaviour certainly counts. We're rival siblings in a way, and on that subject doesn't Nero tell us, in Racine's Britannicus, 'j’embrasse mon rival, mais c’est pour l’étouffer'?
I see it as the banter of rivals.
Yes. Note also that if someone picks on the French it annoys us, and we defend them, because that’s our job.
Well in the past certainly, not so sure people would be so willing to go rescue europe again
I don't think things would have worked out well for us if we'd sued for peace with Hitler. War was - ultimately - very much to our benefit.
Was it? I mean it bankrupted us and cost us the India and most of the Empire.
It didn't cost us India and the Empire, because they were going to go anyway. We would have had a belligerent behemoth on our doorstep, and that would not be fun.
Left to their own devices without the UK sticking its nose in, the Reich would have cleaned up in all of Europe, finished off the Russians and then had all the time in the world to develop their own nuclear programme. With the UK looking on - rather helpless.
All without the USA poking its nose in too.
Hitler started with a view that we were one of his few legitimate allies. We may have just about been able to coexist. All the more reason to be proud of my grandparent’s generation for telling him to do one.
Absolutely, But Hitler's Germany ruling supreme from the Atlantic to the Russian Pacific would have dwarfed us in every resource and strategic advantage you could possibly imagine. I'm sure, although Hitler did have an admiration for the English gentry in particular, I'm sure that admiration wouldn't have stretched to giving the UK any beneficial treatment. We would have been a client-State, very much dependent on his goodwill.
Hello all! I had my first Pfizer dose yesterday. I'm only early 40s but have had some health problems so pushed up the list. The local set up was really efficient; I arrived ten minutes early and had my jab four minutes later, so six minutes before I was meant to arrive. I tried to loiter outside the centre (away from anyone) to not be so early, but got urged in by one of the volunteers. I found the whole experience unexpectedly uplifting. Everybody involved was so positive, their masks didn't seem to be hiding their smiles. I imagine only the bitterest opponents of the government/Boris/Brexit will deny the enormous success our vaccine strategy has been. I've been lurking here a while. I wanted to join the other day so I could get on the Meeks "useful list", but it seems I may have been too slow - unless the list is still alive despite his awkward departure? I'd like to respond to his insane accuation that supporters of Brexit and the current givernment have tried to kill his partner, by pointing out that his preferred policies would have been trying to kill me and many close to me by delaying our vaccinations by many months in the useless EU scheme. Was death-cult the mot-juste once?
Comments
Admittedly, she very nearly lost it anyway 15 months ago.
Starmer: leader
Rayner: deputy
Dodds: shadow chancellor
Nandy: shadow foreign sec
A Welsh MP called Nick with a double-barrelled surname: shadow home sec
Ashworth: health
Lammy: justice
EdM: business
Reeves: shadow Gove
And after that I struggle. I also know that Kate Green shadows Williamson, but I can only remember that because I caught reports about her reply to his statement the other day, and I think Thornberry is still in the shadow cabinet but I don't know what her brief is. Still, such is life for Opposition MPs, I suppose.
There is categorically no semblance of truth to the Worldometers figures. Just because someone compiles dodgy data does not give it a semblance of truth.
When Italy are recording two excess deaths for every one Covid death there is no good faith reason at all to be using the Worldometers data when accurate alternatives are out there.
It is like a few days ago when Leon claimed that France had a 25% death toll from Covid19 because that is what Worldometers gives as the closed case death rate.
Anybody still using Worldometers as their primary source and trying to make political claims based on that is either malicious or ignorant.
Worldometers table is not "unfair" or "disagreeable" it is wrong and using wrong data leads to wrong outcomes. Garbage in, garbage out.
Don't you?
These are people who work in public facing roles and use public transport.
I think he is good comes across very well.
Masks are a different matter. I can actually see them being mandated in certain settings again this Winter, because of concern about flu and Covid hitting at once. Going forward, it's not impossible that they might become a social norm on crowded public transport as well, or for people who have to go out despite being ill (and actually, one social change I really would like to see coming out of this pandemic - and this has been called for by a number of boffins recently - is for the culture of presenteeism to go in the dustbin and for it to become socially unacceptable for people who are really quite ill to keep dragging themselves into workplaces. Although that would probably necessitate the ditching both of zero hours contracts and the gig economy model, so that's probably not going to happen at all, and certainly not under a Conservative Government.)
One issue I think should change is the oversanitizing that is now taking place, despite the evidence showing little to no risk of vomited being a significant cause of Covid spread.
What do you mean, Sir Ed? People don't know...
Oh dear....
Would you like me to repeat the comments of the Labour party towards Chirac and the French when Chirac threaten to use the French veto at the UN over the plans to liberate Iraq?
But there's no way I'm wearing a mask on the train just in case.
I'm a cinema and gig goer, I might wait a year to see what the impacts of non mask wearing at the cinema and a lack of social distancing at those two venues has on Covid numbers.
Now that Salmond's put the boot into the Nats what about a seat in the HoL? Minister for women perhaps?
https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1365388085563850754?s=20
Indeed one was done today!
I'm an anti-social grumpy old git so that doesn't have the same appeal.
Face masks - some will wear them on the Tube in particular and I can see some logic for no other reason than the air quality in London in certain weather conditions is poor.
I would like to think one of the few positives from all this will be greater awareness of the importance of personal hygiene and a sense of collective responsibility so we don't "just soldier on" when ill and we accept keeping surfaces germ-free isn't a bad idea. The public health lessons need to be re-enforced once the vaccination programme has done its work.
After all, we don't know how long immunity from the vaccine will last - it's entirely possible there will need to be a round of booster vaccinations in October or November and there's a worry the take-up of those may not be as encouraging as we are seeing currently. That said, as vaccines improve, it's entirely possible we'll get to a point where one vaccination could provide 18-24 months of immunity if not more.
At a simpler level, if better hygiene and public health reduces the numbers of colds and outbreaks of norovirus, that can be no bad thing.
Vaccines are available across the channel - maybe not in such great numbers but they're available.
It's nothing new and some might say a rivalry which has been mutually beneficial to both. Both countries keep each other on its toes!
https://twitter.com/realsb4feelings/status/1365207504821575680
https://microclimate.com/
Any comparison that doesn't control for age profile, population density, care home population and obesity is going to be simplistic at best.
Its too early to judge how the UK has performed but being reasonable controlling for key variables I'd suggest the UK is distinctly average. Could have done better on some issues, worse on others.
I voluntarily chose to learn the French language, I love the food, the country but when in 1994 as a callow school student my school arranged a trip to Normandy to coincide with the 50th anniversary of D-Day.
I was genuinely moved and humbled walking around places like the American and Commonwealth cemeteries in places like Colleville-sur-Mer and Bayeux, seeing the cliffs at Pointe du Hoc, it had a profound effect on me, it showed war isn't all glory but lots of sacrifice.
One evening on that trip, I heard a bunch of Frenchmen laughing and making derogatory comments the Anglos and Los Rosbifs, it pissed me off, I got the feeling that they would have preferred to have remained under German control than liberated by the Anglos.
Hence my lifelong dislike of the French.
1. Is it really as simple as making such a request of the solicitors?
2. Does it require unanimity amongst the Committee members (i.e. could objections from the SNP members thwart the request)?
3. Does the Crown Office have any power to obstruct the request?
4. If the Committee obtains the information then does a concept of Parliamentary privilege exist in the devolved set-up which would enable it to discuss and to publish said information openly, without fear of prosecution for contempt of court?
Or a paper bag.
The French and Brits are so very much alike. Not surprising given the proximity and shared heritage.
?
For all that I respect most of your views, as expressed in your posts, I find your periodic stereotyped abuse of the French rather juvenile tbh.
However, we will also have put the bug behind us by the end of May, while many of those other countries will only beat it by the end of Summer.
It's also nice that we can all, in our own way, contribute to the success of the programme just by getting jabbed.
I secretly find it a bit childish too, though there are times when they deserve it, and Macron's recent behaviour certainly counts. We're rival siblings in a way, and on that subject doesn't Nero tell us, in Racine's Britannicus, 'j’embrasse mon rival, mais c’est pour l’étouffer'?
Once we are all "cheek by jowl" as the Prime Minister once put it, the vaccines prevent the re-igniting of Covid but that works only as long as the vaccines work. Once the immunity declines or wears off, we'll be back to large outbreaks among people bunched together indoors in confined spaces. This isn't a risk for summer but it's a risk for autumn and next winter because we don't know how long the immunity provided by the vaccines will last.
The first vaccines were only administered less than 3 months ago - let's say where we are in six months.
But really, of all the neighbours we could have, we've done ok.
We'll have booster shots from time-to-time. Big deal.
--AS
Dominion by C J Sansom paints a very believable picture of how things might well have been had Britain sued for peace with Hitler. Good book.
ie Can than be done by the committee chair, committee majority, or has to be by Parliament.
Will depend on Standing Orders, Terms of Reference for Committee; I am not familiar with those.
I think that he has set it up to be slightly tricky for anyone to refuse to issue the Notice.
Is emergency legal intervention possible, I wonder?
Not a Salmond fan, but that was the best political Prestige I have seen for some time.
All without the USA poking its nose in too.
I had my first Pfizer dose yesterday. I'm only early 40s but have had some health problems so pushed up the list. The local set up was really efficient; I arrived ten minutes early and had my jab four minutes later, so six minutes before I was meant to arrive. I tried to loiter outside the centre (away from anyone) to not be so early, but got urged in by one of the volunteers.
I found the whole experience unexpectedly uplifting. Everybody involved was so positive, their masks didn't seem to be hiding their smiles. I imagine only the bitterest opponents of the government/Boris/Brexit will deny the enormous success our vaccine strategy has been.
I've been lurking here a while. I wanted to join the other day so I could get on the Meeks "useful list", but it seems I may have been too slow - unless the list is still alive despite his awkward departure? I'd like to respond to his insane accuation that supporters of Brexit and the current givernment have tried to kill his partner, by pointing out that his preferred policies would have been trying to kill me and many close to me by delaying our vaccinations by many months in the useless EU scheme.
Was death-cult the mot-juste once?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQqFSSs27nw&feature=youtu.be