The polling finds Brits top the world rankings when it comes to willingness to be vaccinated – polit

System

The polling finds Brits top the world rankings when it comes to willingness to be vaccinated – politicalbetting.com

I find the above polling quite extraordinary and hadn’t fully appreciated how attitudes to COVID vaccination vary so much between nations.

Read the full story here

IshmaelZ

First dose of AZ scheduled for next week.

kle4

It's been noted before, that pretty much everywhere significantly increases its willingness as programmes move on, but it is still remarkable how much variance there was to start with.

Even though the UK was already pretty high it is very good that the programme has rolled out well, as there seems to have been no significant anti-vax movement, or even the Macronian stype of uninformed skepticism, among the political classes, which means pretty much no one is being scared off. Even the reporting has not been that bad in the sense of massively panicking over slowdowns or of people dying after receiving a shot.

Omnium

I'm 57 and got my first jab this morning - at Lord's. It was really very well organised. Hat's off to those concerned.

williamglenn

geoffw said:

Fantastic! Salmond advises the committee to ask his solicitors for for any information withheld by branches of government, and tells them that the Scotland Act enables this

https://twitter.com/RuthDavidsonMSP/status/1365369267282190336

kle4

Omnium said:

I'm 57 and got my first jab this morning - at Lord's. It was really very well organised. Hat's off to those concerned.

I hope you had already taken your hat off - I'd take it off in respect at Lord's, as I would at a Cathedral.

ydoethur

I was puzzled by the Hong Kong figure. But then I reflected, if I lived in Hong Kong, would I really risk letting the government of Xi Jinping stick something in my arm?

Andy_JS

Omnium said:

I'm 57 and got my first jab this morning - at Lord's. It was really very well organised. Hat's off to those concerned.

Short arm jab.

kle4

ydoethur said:

I was puzzled by the Hong Kong figure. But then I reflected, if I lived in Hong Kong, would I really risk letting the government of Xi Jinping stick something in my arm?

Then good news, if he wants to do it he won't ask if you'll 'let' him.

ExiledInScotland

I'm getting my first jab tomorrow afternoon. I feel an almost overwhelming pride in scientific progress and very grateful to all involved. Knighthoods for the pfizer and AZ team leads please.

(and also excited for the implications for personalised cancer treatments through mRNA that rcs1000 has posted about before)

Omnium

kle4 said:

Omnium said:

I'm 57 and got my first jab this morning - at Lord's. It was really very well organised. Hat's off to those concerned.

I hope you had already taken your hat off - I'd take it off in respect at Lord's, as I would at a Cathedral.

Quite right. I look forwards to getting some tickets soon for some actual cricket - I see England are pioneering a new two-day format.

DougSeal

Are these figures up to date? A poll last month had the US up to 66%.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/21/politics/cnn-poll-coronavirus-vaccine/index.html

Philip_Thompson

Great news. The whole of Britain across all nations, parties and cultures is doing a great job getting on with getting vaccinated.

FPT

Northern_Al said:

Philip_Thompson said:

kinabalu said:

Philip_Thompson said:

AlastairMeeks said:

ozymandias said:

AlastairMeeks said:

ozymandias said:

AlastairMeeks said:

ozymandias said:

AlastairMeeks said:

DavidL said:

AlastairMeeks said:

turbotubbs said:

AlastairMeeks said:

kle4 said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Leon said:

DavidL said:

Leon said:

I see the Guardian says the Begum ruling is “controversial”

This is one of those special Guardian word-definitions, where “controversial” means “it dismays three people in Islington”

The view of the court about the respect to be given to the views and judgment of Ministers is something of a throw back and may cause ripples. It is not easy to reconcile that view with the unanimous view of the Court in the Prorogation case, to take an example.

The court over-reached with the prorogation case; this time they are exactly right. These difficult executive decisions must be made by people who are democratically accountable

These two cases are easily reconciled.

In both cases the court found it had the power to intervene. It took the view that it should intervene in the prorogation case because the government was taking the piss (which it was): the government's refusal to give any account under oath for its actions may well have proven fatal to its case. You seem to have forgotten that at the time of the purported prorogation Britain had a Prime Minister who had not been elected at a general election, who did not command a majority in Parliament and indeed had not won a vote in Parliament pursuing a policy that had not been put before the British public and using prorogation as a tool to impose that irreversibly.

In the present case it took the view that the government had acted within the wide latitude granted to governments when taking decisions. Which, given that the Home Secretary was exercising statutory powers given to them in an extreme case, is not all that surprising.

The main consequence of the prorogation case was political. The public decided, unlike in the USA, that they were AOK with self-coups. As a result Britain now has a government with a light attachment to democracy and an extreme aversion to any form of accountability enthusiastically supported by a self-radicalised posse who are quite willing to overlook anything it does, up to and including the avoidable deaths of tens of thousands.

Nice example of ensuring people wont pay attention to your solidly put points because you wanted to indulge in unrelated theatrical condemnation.

Now you can pretend to be affronted when people ignore your good first paras, even though that was presumably your intention and you want Brexiteers to rage at you so you can respond in turn.

Well, each of us has fun in their own way i suppose.

The last bit is the important bit. Tens of thousands of people have died avoidable deaths, but the government's supporters simply don't think that's as important as supporting the government.

I am staggered at the self-degradation of these partisans.

Pot meet kettle. I assume the Italians, French, Germans, Americans (need I go on?) who died were all unavoidable deaths? Or maybe. just maybe there is a nasty virus in worldwide circulation causing epic problems to all governments. Ours has not performed well, I think most would accept that, but they are not the only ones to struggle in this pandemic. At least we have one of the most open and trustworthy reporting systems. How many Chinese died in Wuhan province? How many Spaniards have died (unclear reporting, and a suggestion that that true figure is far higher than the official one?
I get that you hate Brexit and the current government, but you are one of the most blinkered on this site. You are an intelligent man, but your own lack of self awareness is stark.

Britain has done exceptionally badly, in the bottommost tier of countries in its response to Covid-19. Only the most crazed zealots would suggest otherwise.

Sadly, many of those crazed zealots infest this site. Here's the sort of problem that they're determined to avoid discussing:

https://twitter.com/peterjukes/status/1364961983964053511?s=20

I raised this this morning but the hypothesis of that comment that this is something that could have been avoided is at best unproven. As far as we can tell what happened was that Kent variant took a much greater hold in this country than elsewhere, it was far more infectious and possibly marginally more dangerous.

Your default assumption that this was a consequence of government incompetence or ineptitude may prove to be correct but it is an assumption. The UK has the best genomic analysis in the world. By that time (December) it had amongst the best test and trace and was one of the very highest levels of testing. And yet we were still caught with our trousers down. Incompetence? Maybe but it is possible that we did our very best and were simply unlucky.

My memory is good enough to remember early December, when cases in Britain were obviously rising and the government was resisting tightening up. I remember the Prime Minister mocking the Leader of the Opposition for suggesting the same thing.

It was obvious what was happening at the time. And untold thousands paid with their lives because the Prime Minister couldn't bear to do the unpopular but necessary thing.

I'm sure you're diligently noting down in your ledger the untold thousands of EU citizens who will perish completely unnecessarily due to the EU, and various Member State governments, putting political ideology and dogma ahead of the lives of their citizens.

Your position the other night was that this was a pandemic and as such a natural phenomenon for which no government could be blamed for anything at all. Have you yet moved on from that ridiculous position?

Not at all. I'm just naively assuming you must be doing as I mentioned as a logical extension of your criticisms of the UK government.

If you're not then it doesn't bother me, but it would be interesting to know. Unless of course there's axes to be ground.

I don't blame any government for anything as it happens. No government is deliberately seeking to kill their citizens. All are doing what they consider to be the best at the time they make any decision, in rapidly changing situations, with new and constantly evolving scientific evidence or theories.

But if there's an axe to be ground then so be it. Fill your boots. It won't assuage your evident hate of the UK government though. Use your vote instead. If enough people agree with you then democracy will have its say.

I have a feeling though that it won't be your current angst that'll be the undoing of Johnson.

So you do agree that the outrageous number of avoidable deaths that the British government is responsible for is something that they should be held accountable for?

No I don't as I don't consider them to be "outrageous" or ultimately what I would consider to be "avoidable".

Comparatively high to others, at this precise moment in time, yes. Expected, yes.

We have a habit of making our governments "accountable" every 4 or 5 years. If your belief is shared by the majority of people come judgement day then you'll be the first to celebrate I'm sure.

Expected? The fourth worst in the world? This country is well and truly up shit creek if your disgusting complacency about such disastrous performance is widely shared.

Except fourth in the world is not true. There is no semblance of truth to it whatsoever so only someone trying to lie to score partisan points would use that claim.

4th is a frequently quoted (by reputable sources) current estimate of where we stand. It can be disputed - as all precise country comparisons can be - but it's not a bad faith claim. You, OTOH, with nonsense such as "there is no semblance of truth to it whatsoever", are lying.

There is no semblance of truth to it whatsoever. Here are the real officially recorded excess death figures: https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-deaths-tracker

Show me how you can get 4th from that? Or do you think we should be using the guesstimate trackers that we know are missing half or more of some countries deaths?

Which matters more for you: how many people have actually died (excess deaths) or using figures you know are wrong because they put Britain in a bad light (recorded Covid19 deaths)?

I have two very strong suspicions.

a) if the 'official' Covid deaths on Worldometer showed the UK with a much lower death rate than others, you would be trumpeting the government's success ad infinitum, regardless of what excess deaths showed (currently).

b) you will emphatically deny a).

If I did and I was using Worldometer figures that were BS then you would be right to correct the record and point out that they're bullshit.

Everyone agreed early on, before figures showed anything, that the one gold standard true metric during a pandemic is excess deaths. Because some countries (like the UK) do a good job of testing for and accurately recording cause of death, others do not.

What matters more to you:

a) how many have actually died in real life?

b) how many Worldometers claims have died?

Black_Rook

ydoethur said:

I was puzzled by the Hong Kong figure. But then I reflected, if I lived in Hong Kong, would I really risk letting the government of Xi Jinping stick something in my arm?

AIUI that's exactly the problem. Much of the population doesn't trust the Chinese vaccines.

ydoethur

kle4 said:

ydoethur said:

I was puzzled by the Hong Kong figure. But then I reflected, if I lived in Hong Kong, would I really risk letting the government of Xi Jinping stick something in my arm?

Then good news, if he wants to do it he won't ask if you'll 'let' him.

Fair point.

Edit - coupled with the fact that AIUI the Sinopharm vaccine is not very good (52% effective?) that also suggests that China might continue to be a problem in this pandemic.

Omnium

williamglenn said:

geoffw said:

Fantastic! Salmond advises the committee to ask his solicitors for for any information withheld by branches of government, and tells them that the Scotland Act enables this

https://twitter.com/RuthDavidsonMSP/status/1365369267282190336

He's almost a characterisation of the Revenge is a dish best served cold idea.

Northern_Al

Philip_Thompson said:

Great news. The whole of Britain across all nations, parties and cultures is doing a great job getting on with getting vaccinated.

FPT

Northern_Al said:

Philip_Thompson said:

kinabalu said:

Philip_Thompson said:

AlastairMeeks said:

ozymandias said:

AlastairMeeks said:

ozymandias said:

AlastairMeeks said:

ozymandias said:

AlastairMeeks said:

DavidL said:

AlastairMeeks said:

turbotubbs said:

AlastairMeeks said:

kle4 said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Leon said:

DavidL said:

Leon said:

I see the Guardian says the Begum ruling is “controversial”

This is one of those special Guardian word-definitions, where “controversial” means “it dismays three people in Islington”

The view of the court about the respect to be given to the views and judgment of Ministers is something of a throw back and may cause ripples. It is not easy to reconcile that view with the unanimous view of the Court in the Prorogation case, to take an example.

The court over-reached with the prorogation case; this time they are exactly right. These difficult executive decisions must be made by people who are democratically accountable

These two cases are easily reconciled.

In both cases the court found it had the power to intervene. It took the view that it should intervene in the prorogation case because the government was taking the piss (which it was): the government's refusal to give any account under oath for its actions may well have proven fatal to its case. You seem to have forgotten that at the time of the purported prorogation Britain had a Prime Minister who had not been elected at a general election, who did not command a majority in Parliament and indeed had not won a vote in Parliament pursuing a policy that had not been put before the British public and using prorogation as a tool to impose that irreversibly.

In the present case it took the view that the government had acted within the wide latitude granted to governments when taking decisions. Which, given that the Home Secretary was exercising statutory powers given to them in an extreme case, is not all that surprising.

The main consequence of the prorogation case was political. The public decided, unlike in the USA, that they were AOK with self-coups. As a result Britain now has a government with a light attachment to democracy and an extreme aversion to any form of accountability enthusiastically supported by a self-radicalised posse who are quite willing to overlook anything it does, up to and including the avoidable deaths of tens of thousands.

Nice example of ensuring people wont pay attention to your solidly put points because you wanted to indulge in unrelated theatrical condemnation.

Now you can pretend to be affronted when people ignore your good first paras, even though that was presumably your intention and you want Brexiteers to rage at you so you can respond in turn.

Well, each of us has fun in their own way i suppose.

The last bit is the important bit. Tens of thousands of people have died avoidable deaths, but the government's supporters simply don't think that's as important as supporting the government.

I am staggered at the self-degradation of these partisans.

Pot meet kettle. I assume the Italians, French, Germans, Americans (need I go on?) who died were all unavoidable deaths? Or maybe. just maybe there is a nasty virus in worldwide circulation causing epic problems to all governments. Ours has not performed well, I think most would accept that, but they are not the only ones to struggle in this pandemic. At least we have one of the most open and trustworthy reporting systems. How many Chinese died in Wuhan province? How many Spaniards have died (unclear reporting, and a suggestion that that true figure is far higher than the official one?
I get that you hate Brexit and the current government, but you are one of the most blinkered on this site. You are an intelligent man, but your own lack of self awareness is stark.

Britain has done exceptionally badly, in the bottommost tier of countries in its response to Covid-19. Only the most crazed zealots would suggest otherwise.

Sadly, many of those crazed zealots infest this site. Here's the sort of problem that they're determined to avoid discussing:

https://twitter.com/peterjukes/status/1364961983964053511?s=20

I raised this this morning but the hypothesis of that comment that this is something that could have been avoided is at best unproven. As far as we can tell what happened was that Kent variant took a much greater hold in this country than elsewhere, it was far more infectious and possibly marginally more dangerous.

Your default assumption that this was a consequence of government incompetence or ineptitude may prove to be correct but it is an assumption. The UK has the best genomic analysis in the world. By that time (December) it had amongst the best test and trace and was one of the very highest levels of testing. And yet we were still caught with our trousers down. Incompetence? Maybe but it is possible that we did our very best and were simply unlucky.

My memory is good enough to remember early December, when cases in Britain were obviously rising and the government was resisting tightening up. I remember the Prime Minister mocking the Leader of the Opposition for suggesting the same thing.

It was obvious what was happening at the time. And untold thousands paid with their lives because the Prime Minister couldn't bear to do the unpopular but necessary thing.

I'm sure you're diligently noting down in your ledger the untold thousands of EU citizens who will perish completely unnecessarily due to the EU, and various Member State governments, putting political ideology and dogma ahead of the lives of their citizens.

Your position the other night was that this was a pandemic and as such a natural phenomenon for which no government could be blamed for anything at all. Have you yet moved on from that ridiculous position?

Not at all. I'm just naively assuming you must be doing as I mentioned as a logical extension of your criticisms of the UK government.

If you're not then it doesn't bother me, but it would be interesting to know. Unless of course there's axes to be ground.

I don't blame any government for anything as it happens. No government is deliberately seeking to kill their citizens. All are doing what they consider to be the best at the time they make any decision, in rapidly changing situations, with new and constantly evolving scientific evidence or theories.

But if there's an axe to be ground then so be it. Fill your boots. It won't assuage your evident hate of the UK government though. Use your vote instead. If enough people agree with you then democracy will have its say.

I have a feeling though that it won't be your current angst that'll be the undoing of Johnson.

So you do agree that the outrageous number of avoidable deaths that the British government is responsible for is something that they should be held accountable for?

No I don't as I don't consider them to be "outrageous" or ultimately what I would consider to be "avoidable".

Comparatively high to others, at this precise moment in time, yes. Expected, yes.

We have a habit of making our governments "accountable" every 4 or 5 years. If your belief is shared by the majority of people come judgement day then you'll be the first to celebrate I'm sure.

Expected? The fourth worst in the world? This country is well and truly up shit creek if your disgusting complacency about such disastrous performance is widely shared.

Except fourth in the world is not true. There is no semblance of truth to it whatsoever so only someone trying to lie to score partisan points would use that claim.

4th is a frequently quoted (by reputable sources) current estimate of where we stand. It can be disputed - as all precise country comparisons can be - but it's not a bad faith claim. You, OTOH, with nonsense such as "there is no semblance of truth to it whatsoever", are lying.

There is no semblance of truth to it whatsoever. Here are the real officially recorded excess death figures: https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-deaths-tracker

Show me how you can get 4th from that? Or do you think we should be using the guesstimate trackers that we know are missing half or more of some countries deaths?

Which matters more for you: how many people have actually died (excess deaths) or using figures you know are wrong because they put Britain in a bad light (recorded Covid19 deaths)?

I have two very strong suspicions.

a) if the 'official' Covid deaths on Worldometer showed the UK with a much lower death rate than others, you would be trumpeting the government's success ad infinitum, regardless of what excess deaths showed (currently).

b) you will emphatically deny a).

If I did and I was using Worldometer figures that were BS then you would be right to correct the record and point out that they're bullshit.

Everyone agreed early on, before figures showed anything, that the one gold standard true metric during a pandemic is excess deaths. Because some countries (like the UK) do a good job of testing for and accurately recording cause of death, others do not.

What matters more to you:

a) how many have actually died in real life?

b) how many Worldometers claims have died?

a). But neither you, nor I, know how we compare relative to other countries on that measure yet, and we won't for some time. So you going on about it is no different from those going on about b).

stodge

Evening all

Have to say still no invitation for this 60+ to get a vaccine. Hearing widespread stories of those in their 50s getting a vaccine and the unwillingness of Government to publish detailed figures on the progress of vaccination does make me suspicious the rollout programme is proceeding rapidly in some areas and less well in others.

The cohort of those aged 16-64 with underlying health conditions is admittedly one of the largest at over 7 million nationally but progress through this and down the population appears inconsistent to this observer whatever the national numbers are saying..

Northern_Al

Omnium said:

I'm 57 and got my first jab this morning - at Lord's. It was really very well organised. Hat's off to those concerned.

Great. But was the wicket taking spin?

ydoethur

Omnium said:

williamglenn said:

geoffw said:

Fantastic! Salmond advises the committee to ask his solicitors for for any information withheld by branches of government, and tells them that the Scotland Act enables this

https://twitter.com/RuthDavidsonMSP/status/1365369267282190336

He's almost a characterisation of the Revenge is a dish best served cold idea.

In the few glimpses I got of his testimony, he seemed to be serving it with dry ice.

FrancisUrquhart

I know we all love to talk about the golden age of telly on here...

I just found Snowfall, if you like The Shield, you probably going to like it. Its no The Wire though.

But thought worth mentioning lead role is another little known British actor, Damson Idris, who is excellent. Something worth watching, while we wait 5 years for another episode of Sherlock from the beeb....

ThomasNashe

Omnium said:

williamglenn said:

geoffw said:

Fantastic! Salmond advises the committee to ask his solicitors for for any information withheld by branches of government, and tells them that the Scotland Act enables this

https://twitter.com/RuthDavidsonMSP/status/1365369267282190336

He's almost a characterisation of the Revenge is a dish best served cold idea.

Are these really the explosive revelations that Salmond clearly thinks they are? I’ve always found his smug, self-satisfied demeanour repellent - and all the more so in the light of the revelations of how he behaved around female subordinates.

kle4

stodge said:

Evening all

Have to say still no invitation for this 60+ to get a vaccine. Hearing widespread stories of those in their 50s getting a vaccine and the unwillingness of Government to publish detailed figures on the progress of vaccination does make me suspicious the rollout programme is proceeding rapidly in some areas and less well in others.

The cohort of those aged 16-64 with underlying health conditions is admittedly one of the largest at over 7 million nationally but progress through this and down the population appears inconsistent to this observer whatever the national numbers are saying..

Completely consistent progress with such a cohort seems near impossible, but if some areas are particularly bad I hope that gets flagged up quickly. I know a person in their late 20s who has gotten jabbed mere days after their 75+ grandparent, which even with an underlying condition they were surprised at.

ydoethur

Northern_Al said:

Omnium said:

I'm 57 and got my first jab this morning - at Lord's. It was really very well organised. Hat's off to those concerned.

But was the wicket taking spin?

Apparently it’s a rapid turnaround.

They got into the swing of things.

It’s a wicket way of doing things.

That gets the puns out of the way, I hope.

kle4

ydoethur said:

Northern_Al said:

Omnium said:

I'm 57 and got my first jab this morning - at Lord's. It was really very well organised. Hat's off to those concerned.

But was the wicket taking spin?

Apparently it’s a rapid turnaround.

They got into the swing of things.

It’s a wicket way of doing things.

That gets the puns out of the way, I hope.

I thnk ydoethur may be unwell, rushing through the punning like that.

Black_Rook

kle4 said:

It's been noted before, that pretty much everywhere significantly increases its willingness as programmes move on, but it is still remarkable how much variance there was to start with.

Even though the UK was already pretty high it is very good that the programme has rolled out well, as there seems to have been no significant anti-vax movement, or even the Macronian stype of uninformed skepticism, among the political classes, which means pretty much no one is being scared off. Even the reporting has not been that bad in the sense of massively panicking over slowdowns or of people dying after receiving a shot.

What's helped a lot is that the communication strategy seems to have consisted largely of a campaign of quiet reassurance by scientists. To the extent that politicians have become involved, it's been entirely to repeat the scientists' messages (and, as you point out, to avoid muddying the waters by contradicting them. There have been a range of views expressed on lockdown, but when it comes to the vaccines everybody is singing from the same hymn sheet.)

dixiedean

Omnium said:

I'm 57 and got my first jab this morning - at Lord's. It was really very well organised. Hat's off to those concerned.

Good job it wasn't at Ahmedabad.
It would have missed your arm and bowled you through the gate!
Seriously congrats.

DougSeal

ydoethur said:

kle4 said:

ydoethur said:

I was puzzled by the Hong Kong figure. But then I reflected, if I lived in Hong Kong, would I really risk letting the government of Xi Jinping stick something in my arm?

Then good news, if he wants to do it he won't ask if you'll 'let' him.

Fair point.

Edit - coupled with the fact that AIUI the Sinopharm vaccine is not very good (52% effective?) that also suggests that China might continue to be a problem in this pandemic.

They say 72%. Data from Turkey, Brazil and Indonesia puts it anywhere between 50% and 90%. I think it’s better than nowt.

Northern_Al

ydoethur said:

Northern_Al said:

Omnium said:

I'm 57 and got my first jab this morning - at Lord's. It was really very well organised. Hat's off to those concerned.

But was the wicket taking spin?

Apparently it’s a rapid turnaround.

They got into the swing of things.

It’s a wicket way of doing things.

That gets the puns out of the way, I hope.

You've bailed out before they're batted away?

malcolmg

Omnium said:

williamglenn said:

geoffw said:

Fantastic! Salmond advises the committee to ask his solicitors for for any information withheld by branches of government, and tells them that the Scotland Act enables this

https://twitter.com/RuthDavidsonMSP/status/1365369267282190336

He's almost a characterisation of the Revenge is a dish best served cold idea.

Be much wailing and gnashing of teeth at Murrel Towers tonight.

kle4

Black_Rook said:

kle4 said:

It's been noted before, that pretty much everywhere significantly increases its willingness as programmes move on, but it is still remarkable how much variance there was to start with.

Even though the UK was already pretty high it is very good that the programme has rolled out well, as there seems to have been no significant anti-vax movement, or even the Macronian stype of uninformed skepticism, among the political classes, which means pretty much no one is being scared off. Even the reporting has not been that bad in the sense of massively panicking over slowdowns or of people dying after receiving a shot.

What's helped a lot is that the communication strategy seems to have consisted largely of a campaign of quiet reassurance by scientists. To the extent that politicians have become involved, it's been entirely to repeat the scientists' messages (and, as you point out, to avoid muddying the waters by contradicting them. There have been a range of views expressed on lockdown, but when it comes to the vaccines everybody is singing from the same hymn sheet.)

Except Piers Corbyn, freedom fighter.

Omnium

dixiedean said:

Omnium said:

I'm 57 and got my first jab this morning - at Lord's. It was really very well organised. Hat's off to those concerned.

Good job it wasn't at Ahmedabad.
It would have missed your arm and bowled you through the gate!
Seriously congrats.

Thanks. Mostly posted this to show that the programme is really flying along even in London.

malcolmg

ThomasNashe said:

Omnium said:

williamglenn said:

geoffw said:

Fantastic! Salmond advises the committee to ask his solicitors for for any information withheld by branches of government, and tells them that the Scotland Act enables this

https://twitter.com/RuthDavidsonMSP/status/1365369267282190336

He's almost a characterisation of the Revenge is a dish best served cold idea.

Are these really the explosive revelations that Salmond clearly thinks they are? I’ve always found his smug, self-satisfied demeanour repellent - and all the more so in the light of the revelations of how he behaved around female subordinates.

Did you listen to it. A masterclass.

RobD

stodge said:

Evening all

Have to say still no invitation for this 60+ to get a vaccine. Hearing widespread stories of those in their 50s getting a vaccine and the unwillingness of Government to publish detailed figures on the progress of vaccination does make me suspicious the rollout programme is proceeding rapidly in some areas and less well in others.

The cohort of those aged 16-64 with underlying health conditions is admittedly one of the largest at over 7 million nationally but progress through this and down the population appears inconsistent to this observer whatever the national numbers are saying..

Have you tried signing up for one on the website? Is it possible your details are out of date with your GP?

Philip_Thompson

Northern_Al said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Great news. The whole of Britain across all nations, parties and cultures is doing a great job getting on with getting vaccinated.

FPT

Northern_Al said:

Philip_Thompson said:

kinabalu said:

Philip_Thompson said:

AlastairMeeks said:

ozymandias said:

AlastairMeeks said:

ozymandias said:

AlastairMeeks said:

ozymandias said:

AlastairMeeks said:

DavidL said:

AlastairMeeks said:

turbotubbs said:

AlastairMeeks said:

kle4 said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Leon said:

DavidL said:

Leon said:

I see the Guardian says the Begum ruling is “controversial”

This is one of those special Guardian word-definitions, where “controversial” means “it dismays three people in Islington”

The view of the court about the respect to be given to the views and judgment of Ministers is something of a throw back and may cause ripples. It is not easy to reconcile that view with the unanimous view of the Court in the Prorogation case, to take an example.

The court over-reached with the prorogation case; this time they are exactly right. These difficult executive decisions must be made by people who are democratically accountable

These two cases are easily reconciled.

In both cases the court found it had the power to intervene. It took the view that it should intervene in the prorogation case because the government was taking the piss (which it was): the government's refusal to give any account under oath for its actions may well have proven fatal to its case. You seem to have forgotten that at the time of the purported prorogation Britain had a Prime Minister who had not been elected at a general election, who did not command a majority in Parliament and indeed had not won a vote in Parliament pursuing a policy that had not been put before the British public and using prorogation as a tool to impose that irreversibly.

In the present case it took the view that the government had acted within the wide latitude granted to governments when taking decisions. Which, given that the Home Secretary was exercising statutory powers given to them in an extreme case, is not all that surprising.

The main consequence of the prorogation case was political. The public decided, unlike in the USA, that they were AOK with self-coups. As a result Britain now has a government with a light attachment to democracy and an extreme aversion to any form of accountability enthusiastically supported by a self-radicalised posse who are quite willing to overlook anything it does, up to and including the avoidable deaths of tens of thousands.

Nice example of ensuring people wont pay attention to your solidly put points because you wanted to indulge in unrelated theatrical condemnation.

Now you can pretend to be affronted when people ignore your good first paras, even though that was presumably your intention and you want Brexiteers to rage at you so you can respond in turn.

Well, each of us has fun in their own way i suppose.

The last bit is the important bit. Tens of thousands of people have died avoidable deaths, but the government's supporters simply don't think that's as important as supporting the government.

I am staggered at the self-degradation of these partisans.

Pot meet kettle. I assume the Italians, French, Germans, Americans (need I go on?) who died were all unavoidable deaths? Or maybe. just maybe there is a nasty virus in worldwide circulation causing epic problems to all governments. Ours has not performed well, I think most would accept that, but they are not the only ones to struggle in this pandemic. At least we have one of the most open and trustworthy reporting systems. How many Chinese died in Wuhan province? How many Spaniards have died (unclear reporting, and a suggestion that that true figure is far higher than the official one?
I get that you hate Brexit and the current government, but you are one of the most blinkered on this site. You are an intelligent man, but your own lack of self awareness is stark.

Britain has done exceptionally badly, in the bottommost tier of countries in its response to Covid-19. Only the most crazed zealots would suggest otherwise.

Sadly, many of those crazed zealots infest this site. Here's the sort of problem that they're determined to avoid discussing:

https://twitter.com/peterjukes/status/1364961983964053511?s=20

I raised this this morning but the hypothesis of that comment that this is something that could have been avoided is at best unproven. As far as we can tell what happened was that Kent variant took a much greater hold in this country than elsewhere, it was far more infectious and possibly marginally more dangerous.

Your default assumption that this was a consequence of government incompetence or ineptitude may prove to be correct but it is an assumption. The UK has the best genomic analysis in the world. By that time (December) it had amongst the best test and trace and was one of the very highest levels of testing. And yet we were still caught with our trousers down. Incompetence? Maybe but it is possible that we did our very best and were simply unlucky.

My memory is good enough to remember early December, when cases in Britain were obviously rising and the government was resisting tightening up. I remember the Prime Minister mocking the Leader of the Opposition for suggesting the same thing.

It was obvious what was happening at the time. And untold thousands paid with their lives because the Prime Minister couldn't bear to do the unpopular but necessary thing.

I'm sure you're diligently noting down in your ledger the untold thousands of EU citizens who will perish completely unnecessarily due to the EU, and various Member State governments, putting political ideology and dogma ahead of the lives of their citizens.

Your position the other night was that this was a pandemic and as such a natural phenomenon for which no government could be blamed for anything at all. Have you yet moved on from that ridiculous position?

Not at all. I'm just naively assuming you must be doing as I mentioned as a logical extension of your criticisms of the UK government.

If you're not then it doesn't bother me, but it would be interesting to know. Unless of course there's axes to be ground.

I don't blame any government for anything as it happens. No government is deliberately seeking to kill their citizens. All are doing what they consider to be the best at the time they make any decision, in rapidly changing situations, with new and constantly evolving scientific evidence or theories.

But if there's an axe to be ground then so be it. Fill your boots. It won't assuage your evident hate of the UK government though. Use your vote instead. If enough people agree with you then democracy will have its say.

I have a feeling though that it won't be your current angst that'll be the undoing of Johnson.

So you do agree that the outrageous number of avoidable deaths that the British government is responsible for is something that they should be held accountable for?

No I don't as I don't consider them to be "outrageous" or ultimately what I would consider to be "avoidable".

Comparatively high to others, at this precise moment in time, yes. Expected, yes.

We have a habit of making our governments "accountable" every 4 or 5 years. If your belief is shared by the majority of people come judgement day then you'll be the first to celebrate I'm sure.

Expected? The fourth worst in the world? This country is well and truly up shit creek if your disgusting complacency about such disastrous performance is widely shared.

Except fourth in the world is not true. There is no semblance of truth to it whatsoever so only someone trying to lie to score partisan points would use that claim.

4th is a frequently quoted (by reputable sources) current estimate of where we stand. It can be disputed - as all precise country comparisons can be - but it's not a bad faith claim. You, OTOH, with nonsense such as "there is no semblance of truth to it whatsoever", are lying.

There is no semblance of truth to it whatsoever. Here are the real officially recorded excess death figures: https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-deaths-tracker

Show me how you can get 4th from that? Or do you think we should be using the guesstimate trackers that we know are missing half or more of some countries deaths?

Which matters more for you: how many people have actually died (excess deaths) or using figures you know are wrong because they put Britain in a bad light (recorded Covid19 deaths)?

I have two very strong suspicions.

a) if the 'official' Covid deaths on Worldometer showed the UK with a much lower death rate than others, you would be trumpeting the government's success ad infinitum, regardless of what excess deaths showed (currently).

b) you will emphatically deny a).

If I did and I was using Worldometer figures that were BS then you would be right to correct the record and point out that they're bullshit.

Everyone agreed early on, before figures showed anything, that the one gold standard true metric during a pandemic is excess deaths. Because some countries (like the UK) do a good job of testing for and accurately recording cause of death, others do not.

What matters more to you:

a) how many have actually died in real life?

b) how many Worldometers claims have died?

a). But neither you, nor I, know how we compare relative to other countries on that measure yet, and we won't for some time. So you going on about it is no different from those going on about b).

a) https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-deaths-tracker

We don't know everything but there's a substantial amount of data there.

Italy until 30/11/20 had 157 excess deaths per 100k population.
Britain until 22/01/21 had 160 excess deaths per 100k population.

Given the figures that have come out from Italy in December and January it seems reasonable to expect more than 3 deaths per 100k in the eight weeks they have missing from the data.

Carnyx

kle4 said:

ydoethur said:

Northern_Al said:

Omnium said:

I'm 57 and got my first jab this morning - at Lord's. It was really very well organised. Hat's off to those concerned.

But was the wicket taking spin?

Apparently it’s a rapid turnaround.

They got into the swing of things.

It’s a wicket way of doing things.

That gets the puns out of the way, I hope.

I thnk ydoethur may be unwell, rushing through the punning like that.

Running, surely ...

williamglenn

kle4 said:

ydoethur said:

Northern_Al said:

Omnium said:

I'm 57 and got my first jab this morning - at Lord's. It was really very well organised. Hat's off to those concerned.

But was the wicket taking spin?

Apparently it’s a rapid turnaround.

They got into the swing of things.

It’s a wicket way of doing things.

That gets the puns out of the way, I hope.

I thnk ydoethur may be unwell, rushing through the punning like that.

He must be angling for membership of the Marylebone Corona Club.

RochdalePioneers

Evening all. Is there anything more satisfying than a real fire...?

ThomasNashe

ydoethur said:

Northern_Al said:

Omnium said:

I'm 57 and got my first jab this morning - at Lord's. It was really very well organised. Hat's off to those concerned.

But was the wicket taking spin?

Apparently it’s a rapid turnaround.

They got into the swing of things.

It’s a wicket way of doing things.

That gets the puns out of the way, I hope.

You’ve left the rest of us no chance to follow on.

rcs1000

Omnium said:

I'm 57 and got my first jab this morning - at Lord's. It was really very well organised. Hat's off to those concerned.

Did they use the hall by the Nursery ground? (God, I can't wait to get back to Lords to watch cricket.)

malcolmg

Omnium said:

williamglenn said:

geoffw said:

Fantastic! Salmond advises the committee to ask his solicitors for for any information withheld by branches of government, and tells them that the Scotland Act enables this

https://twitter.com/RuthDavidsonMSP/status/1365369267282190336

He's almost a characterisation of the Revenge is a dish best served cold idea.

Documents will be wrapped up and waiting on the courier arriving.

RobD

RochdalePioneers said:

Evening all. Is there anything more satisfying than a real fire...?

Depends where it is occurring, I suppose.

MarqueeMark

kle4 said:

ydoethur said:

Northern_Al said:

Omnium said:

I'm 57 and got my first jab this morning - at Lord's. It was really very well organised. Hat's off to those concerned.

But was the wicket taking spin?

Apparently it’s a rapid turnaround.

They got into the swing of things.

It’s a wicket way of doing things.

That gets the puns out of the way, I hope.

I thnk ydoethur may be unwell, rushing through the punning like that.

Creased me up.

IanB2

Omnium said:

I'm 57 and got my first jab this morning - at Lord's. It was really very well organised. Hat's off to those concerned.

Yet other areas of the country have barely started on the late 60s y-os

stodge

RobD said:

stodge said:

Evening all

Have to say still no invitation for this 60+ to get a vaccine. Hearing widespread stories of those in their 50s getting a vaccine and the unwillingness of Government to publish detailed figures on the progress of vaccination does make me suspicious the rollout programme is proceeding rapidly in some areas and less well in others.

The cohort of those aged 16-64 with underlying health conditions is admittedly one of the largest at over 7 million nationally but progress through this and down the population appears inconsistent to this observer whatever the national numbers are saying..

Have you tried signing up for one on the website? Is it possible your details are out of date with your GP?

No, I've checked all of that. Everything is correct. I don't believe I've been "missed", it's just that progress through the population in my part of the world isn't as rapid as it appears to be in other places.

MarqueeMark

RochdalePioneers said:

Evening all. Is there anything more satisfying than a real fire...?

Sat eating a bacon sarnie in front of it....

ydoethur

kle4 said:

ydoethur said:

Northern_Al said:

Omnium said:

I'm 57 and got my first jab this morning - at Lord's. It was really very well organised. Hat's off to those concerned.

But was the wicket taking spin?

Apparently it’s a rapid turnaround.

They got into the swing of things.

It’s a wicket way of doing things.

That gets the puns out of the way, I hope.

I thnk ydoethur may be unwell, rushing through the punning like that.

It’s Friday after a week of remote teaching. I’m absolutely on my knees.

And I have another two weeks of that to go.

Then three weeks of term before Easter when - amazingly and I am not making this up - the DfE expects us to do in person AND live remote lessons.

While wearing a mask.

It is going to be bloody hard. In fact I don’t see how it’s even possible.

It will please that nutter Topping, of course, because he hates teachers in general and me in particular.

But it’s going to be a disaster for staff retention and I can’t see how it’s going to deliver high quality education to the children.

turbotubbs

RochdalePioneers said:

Evening all. Is there anything more satisfying than a real fire...?

Very jealous - enjoy!

Black_Rook

stodge said:

Evening all

Have to say still no invitation for this 60+ to get a vaccine. Hearing widespread stories of those in their 50s getting a vaccine and the unwillingness of Government to publish detailed figures on the progress of vaccination does make me suspicious the rollout programme is proceeding rapidly in some areas and less well in others.

The cohort of those aged 16-64 with underlying health conditions is admittedly one of the largest at over 7 million nationally but progress through this and down the population appears inconsistent to this observer whatever the national numbers are saying..

Cohort 6 must, at a guess, have effectively expanded to nearer nine million. There are about 800,000 recently identified extra shielders under the age of 65 to add on, plus the recommendation to GPs to pick out anyone in their records with a learning disability and bump them up the list as well. Estimates on the size of that category seem to vary between 1 and 1.5 million, and I think only those with a severe impairment and adults with Down's Syndrome previously qualified as a priority.

However, that notwithstanding there are now anecdata flying around on here about the 7s and even the 8s being seen, so I'm sure that progress has been a bit lumpy.

RobD

stodge said:

RobD said:

stodge said:

Evening all

Have to say still no invitation for this 60+ to get a vaccine. Hearing widespread stories of those in their 50s getting a vaccine and the unwillingness of Government to publish detailed figures on the progress of vaccination does make me suspicious the rollout programme is proceeding rapidly in some areas and less well in others.

The cohort of those aged 16-64 with underlying health conditions is admittedly one of the largest at over 7 million nationally but progress through this and down the population appears inconsistent to this observer whatever the national numbers are saying..

Have you tried signing up for one on the website? Is it possible your details are out of date with your GP?

No, I've checked all of that. Everything is correct. I don't believe I've been "missed", it's just that progress through the population in my part of the world isn't as rapid as it appears to be in other places.

OK, good that you checked. Hopefully not too long now. I would still try signing up, as several others have done on here without invitation.

BluestBlue

ydoethur said:

Northern_Al said:

Omnium said:

I'm 57 and got my first jab this morning - at Lord's. It was really very well organised. Hat's off to those concerned.

But was the wicket taking spin?

Apparently it’s a rapid turnaround.

They got into the swing of things.

It’s a wicket way of doing things.

That gets the puns out of the way, I hope.

Yes, thank goodness that's over.

Andy_JS

FrancisUrquhart said:

I know we all love to talk about the golden age of telly on here...

I just found Snowfall, if you like The Shield, you probably going to like it. Its no The Wire though.

But thought worth mentioning lead role is another little known British actor, Damson Idris, who is excellent. Something worth watching, while we wait 5 years for another episode of Sherlock from the beeb....

Im just about to start watching The Prisoner again. Amazing series, considering it was filmed in 1966.

ydoethur

williamglenn said:

kle4 said:

ydoethur said:

Northern_Al said:

Omnium said:

I'm 57 and got my first jab this morning - at Lord's. It was really very well organised. Hat's off to those concerned.

But was the wicket taking spin?

Apparently it’s a rapid turnaround.

They got into the swing of things.

It’s a wicket way of doing things.

That gets the puns out of the way, I hope.

I thnk ydoethur may be unwell, rushing through the punning like that.

He must be angling for membership of the Marylebone Corona Club.

Does it offer free priority booking to be vaccinated?

ydoethur

RochdalePioneers said:

Evening all. Is there anything more satisfying than a real fire...?

I hope you mean, a fire on a hearth.

I would hate to think you were that dissatisfied with your new house that quickly.

Black_Rook

MarqueeMark said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Evening all. Is there anything more satisfying than a real fire...?

Sat eating a bacon sarnie in front of it....

Whilst watching your face mask being consumed by the flames. Hopefully not too long to go!

Floater

RochdalePioneers said:

Evening all. Is there anything more satisfying than a real fire...?

My neighbour from years back would beg to differ........

Mind you my wife's face was a picture as she came around the corner on way home from work and saw mw on doorstep talking to the neighbour and a big fire engine outside.....

Richard_Tyndall

Northern_Al said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Great news. The whole of Britain across all nations, parties and cultures is doing a great job getting on with getting vaccinated.

FPT

Northern_Al said:

Philip_Thompson said:

kinabalu said:

Philip_Thompson said:

AlastairMeeks said:

ozymandias said:

AlastairMeeks said:

ozymandias said:

AlastairMeeks said:

ozymandias said:

AlastairMeeks said:

DavidL said:

AlastairMeeks said:

turbotubbs said:

AlastairMeeks said:

kle4 said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Leon said:

DavidL said:

Leon said:

I see the Guardian says the Begum ruling is “controversial”

This is one of those special Guardian word-definitions, where “controversial” means “it dismays three people in Islington”

The view of the court about the respect to be given to the views and judgment of Ministers is something of a throw back and may cause ripples. It is not easy to reconcile that view with the unanimous view of the Court in the Prorogation case, to take an example.

The court over-reached with the prorogation case; this time they are exactly right. These difficult executive decisions must be made by people who are democratically accountable

These two cases are easily reconciled.

In both cases the court found it had the power to intervene. It took the view that it should intervene in the prorogation case because the government was taking the piss (which it was): the government's refusal to give any account under oath for its actions may well have proven fatal to its case. You seem to have forgotten that at the time of the purported prorogation Britain had a Prime Minister who had not been elected at a general election, who did not command a majority in Parliament and indeed had not won a vote in Parliament pursuing a policy that had not been put before the British public and using prorogation as a tool to impose that irreversibly.

In the present case it took the view that the government had acted within the wide latitude granted to governments when taking decisions. Which, given that the Home Secretary was exercising statutory powers given to them in an extreme case, is not all that surprising.

The main consequence of the prorogation case was political. The public decided, unlike in the USA, that they were AOK with self-coups. As a result Britain now has a government with a light attachment to democracy and an extreme aversion to any form of accountability enthusiastically supported by a self-radicalised posse who are quite willing to overlook anything it does, up to and including the avoidable deaths of tens of thousands.

Nice example of ensuring people wont pay attention to your solidly put points because you wanted to indulge in unrelated theatrical condemnation.

Now you can pretend to be affronted when people ignore your good first paras, even though that was presumably your intention and you want Brexiteers to rage at you so you can respond in turn.

Well, each of us has fun in their own way i suppose.

The last bit is the important bit. Tens of thousands of people have died avoidable deaths, but the government's supporters simply don't think that's as important as supporting the government.

I am staggered at the self-degradation of these partisans.

Pot meet kettle. I assume the Italians, French, Germans, Americans (need I go on?) who died were all unavoidable deaths? Or maybe. just maybe there is a nasty virus in worldwide circulation causing epic problems to all governments. Ours has not performed well, I think most would accept that, but they are not the only ones to struggle in this pandemic. At least we have one of the most open and trustworthy reporting systems. How many Chinese died in Wuhan province? How many Spaniards have died (unclear reporting, and a suggestion that that true figure is far higher than the official one?
I get that you hate Brexit and the current government, but you are one of the most blinkered on this site. You are an intelligent man, but your own lack of self awareness is stark.

Britain has done exceptionally badly, in the bottommost tier of countries in its response to Covid-19. Only the most crazed zealots would suggest otherwise.

Sadly, many of those crazed zealots infest this site. Here's the sort of problem that they're determined to avoid discussing:

https://twitter.com/peterjukes/status/1364961983964053511?s=20

I raised this this morning but the hypothesis of that comment that this is something that could have been avoided is at best unproven. As far as we can tell what happened was that Kent variant took a much greater hold in this country than elsewhere, it was far more infectious and possibly marginally more dangerous.

Your default assumption that this was a consequence of government incompetence or ineptitude may prove to be correct but it is an assumption. The UK has the best genomic analysis in the world. By that time (December) it had amongst the best test and trace and was one of the very highest levels of testing. And yet we were still caught with our trousers down. Incompetence? Maybe but it is possible that we did our very best and were simply unlucky.

My memory is good enough to remember early December, when cases in Britain were obviously rising and the government was resisting tightening up. I remember the Prime Minister mocking the Leader of the Opposition for suggesting the same thing.

It was obvious what was happening at the time. And untold thousands paid with their lives because the Prime Minister couldn't bear to do the unpopular but necessary thing.

I'm sure you're diligently noting down in your ledger the untold thousands of EU citizens who will perish completely unnecessarily due to the EU, and various Member State governments, putting political ideology and dogma ahead of the lives of their citizens.

Your position the other night was that this was a pandemic and as such a natural phenomenon for which no government could be blamed for anything at all. Have you yet moved on from that ridiculous position?

Not at all. I'm just naively assuming you must be doing as I mentioned as a logical extension of your criticisms of the UK government.

If you're not then it doesn't bother me, but it would be interesting to know. Unless of course there's axes to be ground.

I don't blame any government for anything as it happens. No government is deliberately seeking to kill their citizens. All are doing what they consider to be the best at the time they make any decision, in rapidly changing situations, with new and constantly evolving scientific evidence or theories.

But if there's an axe to be ground then so be it. Fill your boots. It won't assuage your evident hate of the UK government though. Use your vote instead. If enough people agree with you then democracy will have its say.

I have a feeling though that it won't be your current angst that'll be the undoing of Johnson.

So you do agree that the outrageous number of avoidable deaths that the British government is responsible for is something that they should be held accountable for?

No I don't as I don't consider them to be "outrageous" or ultimately what I would consider to be "avoidable".

Comparatively high to others, at this precise moment in time, yes. Expected, yes.

We have a habit of making our governments "accountable" every 4 or 5 years. If your belief is shared by the majority of people come judgement day then you'll be the first to celebrate I'm sure.

Expected? The fourth worst in the world? This country is well and truly up shit creek if your disgusting complacency about such disastrous performance is widely shared.

Except fourth in the world is not true. There is no semblance of truth to it whatsoever so only someone trying to lie to score partisan points would use that claim.

4th is a frequently quoted (by reputable sources) current estimate of where we stand. It can be disputed - as all precise country comparisons can be - but it's not a bad faith claim. You, OTOH, with nonsense such as "there is no semblance of truth to it whatsoever", are lying.

There is no semblance of truth to it whatsoever. Here are the real officially recorded excess death figures: https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-deaths-tracker

Show me how you can get 4th from that? Or do you think we should be using the guesstimate trackers that we know are missing half or more of some countries deaths?

Which matters more for you: how many people have actually died (excess deaths) or using figures you know are wrong because they put Britain in a bad light (recorded Covid19 deaths)?

I have two very strong suspicions.

a) if the 'official' Covid deaths on Worldometer showed the UK with a much lower death rate than others, you would be trumpeting the government's success ad infinitum, regardless of what excess deaths showed (currently).

b) you will emphatically deny a).

If I did and I was using Worldometer figures that were BS then you would be right to correct the record and point out that they're bullshit.

Everyone agreed early on, before figures showed anything, that the one gold standard true metric during a pandemic is excess deaths. Because some countries (like the UK) do a good job of testing for and accurately recording cause of death, others do not.

What matters more to you:

a) how many have actually died in real life?

b) how many Worldometers claims have died?

a). But neither you, nor I, know how we compare relative to other countries on that measure yet, and we won't for some time. So you going on about it is no different from those going on about b).

Actually the link he posted to the Economist shows exactly that.

And as an aside without getting too much into this argument that really is a fabulous link filled with fascinating information and data

IanB2

Philip_Thompson said:

Great news. The whole of Britain across all nations, parties and cultures is doing a great job getting on with getting vaccinated.

FPT

Northern_Al said:

Philip_Thompson said:

kinabalu said:

Philip_Thompson said:

AlastairMeeks said:

ozymandias said:

AlastairMeeks said:

ozymandias said:

AlastairMeeks said:

ozymandias said:

AlastairMeeks said:

DavidL said:

AlastairMeeks said:

turbotubbs said:

AlastairMeeks said:

kle4 said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Leon said:

DavidL said:

Leon said:

I see the Guardian says the Begum ruling is “controversial”

This is one of those special Guardian word-definitions, where “controversial” means “it dismays three people in Islington”

The view of the court about the respect to be given to the views and judgment of Ministers is something of a throw back and may cause ripples. It is not easy to reconcile that view with the unanimous view of the Court in the Prorogation case, to take an example.

The court over-reached with the prorogation case; this time they are exactly right. These difficult executive decisions must be made by people who are democratically accountable

These two cases are easily reconciled.

In both cases the court found it had the power to intervene. It took the view that it should intervene in the prorogation case because the government was taking the piss (which it was): the government's refusal to give any account under oath for its actions may well have proven fatal to its case. You seem to have forgotten that at the time of the purported prorogation Britain had a Prime Minister who had not been elected at a general election, who did not command a majority in Parliament and indeed had not won a vote in Parliament pursuing a policy that had not been put before the British public and using prorogation as a tool to impose that irreversibly.

In the present case it took the view that the government had acted within the wide latitude granted to governments when taking decisions. Which, given that the Home Secretary was exercising statutory powers given to them in an extreme case, is not all that surprising.

The main consequence of the prorogation case was political. The public decided, unlike in the USA, that they were AOK with self-coups. As a result Britain now has a government with a light attachment to democracy and an extreme aversion to any form of accountability enthusiastically supported by a self-radicalised posse who are quite willing to overlook anything it does, up to and including the avoidable deaths of tens of thousands.

Nice example of ensuring people wont pay attention to your solidly put points because you wanted to indulge in unrelated theatrical condemnation.

Now you can pretend to be affronted when people ignore your good first paras, even though that was presumably your intention and you want Brexiteers to rage at you so you can respond in turn.

Well, each of us has fun in their own way i suppose.

The last bit is the important bit. Tens of thousands of people have died avoidable deaths, but the government's supporters simply don't think that's as important as supporting the government.

I am staggered at the self-degradation of these partisans.

Pot meet kettle. I assume the Italians, French, Germans, Americans (need I go on?) who died were all unavoidable deaths? Or maybe. just maybe there is a nasty virus in worldwide circulation causing epic problems to all governments. Ours has not performed well, I think most would accept that, but they are not the only ones to struggle in this pandemic. At least we have one of the most open and trustworthy reporting systems. How many Chinese died in Wuhan province? How many Spaniards have died (unclear reporting, and a suggestion that that true figure is far higher than the official one?
I get that you hate Brexit and the current government, but you are one of the most blinkered on this site. You are an intelligent man, but your own lack of self awareness is stark.

Britain has done exceptionally badly, in the bottommost tier of countries in its response to Covid-19. Only the most crazed zealots would suggest otherwise.

Sadly, many of those crazed zealots infest this site. Here's the sort of problem that they're determined to avoid discussing:

https://twitter.com/peterjukes/status/1364961983964053511?s=20

I raised this this morning but the hypothesis of that comment that this is something that could have been avoided is at best unproven. As far as we can tell what happened was that Kent variant took a much greater hold in this country than elsewhere, it was far more infectious and possibly marginally more dangerous.

Your default assumption that this was a consequence of government incompetence or ineptitude may prove to be correct but it is an assumption. The UK has the best genomic analysis in the world. By that time (December) it had amongst the best test and trace and was one of the very highest levels of testing. And yet we were still caught with our trousers down. Incompetence? Maybe but it is possible that we did our very best and were simply unlucky.

My memory is good enough to remember early December, when cases in Britain were obviously rising and the government was resisting tightening up. I remember the Prime Minister mocking the Leader of the Opposition for suggesting the same thing.

It was obvious what was happening at the time. And untold thousands paid with their lives because the Prime Minister couldn't bear to do the unpopular but necessary thing.

I'm sure you're diligently noting down in your ledger the untold thousands of EU citizens who will perish completely unnecessarily due to the EU, and various Member State governments, putting political ideology and dogma ahead of the lives of their citizens.

Your position the other night was that this was a pandemic and as such a natural phenomenon for which no government could be blamed for anything at all. Have you yet moved on from that ridiculous position?

Not at all. I'm just naively assuming you must be doing as I mentioned as a logical extension of your criticisms of the UK government.

If you're not then it doesn't bother me, but it would be interesting to know. Unless of course there's axes to be ground.

I don't blame any government for anything as it happens. No government is deliberately seeking to kill their citizens. All are doing what they consider to be the best at the time they make any decision, in rapidly changing situations, with new and constantly evolving scientific evidence or theories.

But if there's an axe to be ground then so be it. Fill your boots. It won't assuage your evident hate of the UK government though. Use your vote instead. If enough people agree with you then democracy will have its say.

I have a feeling though that it won't be your current angst that'll be the undoing of Johnson.

So you do agree that the outrageous number of avoidable deaths that the British government is responsible for is something that they should be held accountable for?

No I don't as I don't consider them to be "outrageous" or ultimately what I would consider to be "avoidable".

Comparatively high to others, at this precise moment in time, yes. Expected, yes.

We have a habit of making our governments "accountable" every 4 or 5 years. If your belief is shared by the majority of people come judgement day then you'll be the first to celebrate I'm sure.

Expected? The fourth worst in the world? This country is well and truly up shit creek if your disgusting complacency about such disastrous performance is widely shared.

Except fourth in the world is not true. There is no semblance of truth to it whatsoever so only someone trying to lie to score partisan points would use that claim.

4th is a frequently quoted (by reputable sources) current estimate of where we stand. It can be disputed - as all precise country comparisons can be - but it's not a bad faith claim. You, OTOH, with nonsense such as "there is no semblance of truth to it whatsoever", are lying.

There is no semblance of truth to it whatsoever. Here are the real officially recorded excess death figures: https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-deaths-tracker

Show me how you can get 4th from that? Or do you think we should be using the guesstimate trackers that we know are missing half or more of some countries deaths?

Which matters more for you: how many people have actually died (excess deaths) or using figures you know are wrong because they put Britain in a bad light (recorded Covid19 deaths)?

I have two very strong suspicions.

a) if the 'official' Covid deaths on Worldometer showed the UK with a much lower death rate than others, you would be trumpeting the government's success ad infinitum, regardless of what excess deaths showed (currently).

b) you will emphatically deny a).

If I did and I was using Worldometer figures that were BS then you would be right to correct the record and point out that they're bullshit.

Everyone agreed early on, before figures showed anything, that the one gold standard true metric during a pandemic is excess deaths. Because some countries (like the UK) do a good job of testing for and accurately recording cause of death, others do not.

What matters more to you:

a) how many have actually died in real life?

b) how many Worldometers claims have died?

There are, however, a multitude of extraneous factors in ‘excess deaths’ and it is misleading to hold this up as some sort of gold standard measure. As just one example, a lockdown in a country (region, town) with a previously bad record on road traffic deaths will have more favourable excess death statistics than one that was always good on road safety, for the same lockdown-related reduction in road journeys, all other things being equal. Yet this has sod all to do with governmental or health service response to the pandemic.

stodge

kle4 said:

stodge said:

Evening all

Have to say still no invitation for this 60+ to get a vaccine. Hearing widespread stories of those in their 50s getting a vaccine and the unwillingness of Government to publish detailed figures on the progress of vaccination does make me suspicious the rollout programme is proceeding rapidly in some areas and less well in others.

The cohort of those aged 16-64 with underlying health conditions is admittedly one of the largest at over 7 million nationally but progress through this and down the population appears inconsistent to this observer whatever the national numbers are saying..

Completely consistent progress with such a cohort seems near impossible, but if some areas are particularly bad I hope that gets flagged up quickly. I know a person in their late 20s who has gotten jabbed mere days after their 75+ grandparent, which even with an underlying condition they were surprised at.

Yet Hancock stands up and says the rollout programme "has been equal and fair UK-wide". I certainly believe that has always been the intention and if the problem has been one of supply and logistics, the mood music suggests they won't be an issue in the coming few weeks.

I come back to the point the comment isn't supported either way by numbers showing the detailed breakdown of vaccinations administered by age and area. I believe my part of the world is lagging some other areas and I don't think it's unreasonable for me to ask why this is the case and what the NHS intends to do to mitigate any problem.

Richard_Nabavi

We shouldn't be surprised by the increase in British willingness to get vaccinated. There's nothing as effective
as stuffing it to the EU for encouraging Brits to do something.

ydoethur

Black_Rook said:

MarqueeMark said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Evening all. Is there anything more satisfying than a real fire...?

Sat eating a bacon sarnie in front of it....

Whilst watching your face mask being consumed by the flames. Hopefully not too long to go!

While drinking a glass of really good Scotch.

Richard_Nabavi

https://twitter.com/rulajebreal/status/1365363549640474627

ydoethur

Richard_Nabavi said:

We shouldn't be surprised by the increase in British willingness to get vaccinated. There's nothing as effective
as stuffing it to the EU for encouraging Brits to do something.

Particularly since it will spite Macron, who is of course French.

Richard_Tyndall

Richard_Nabavi said:

We shouldn't be surprised by the increase in British willingness to get vaccinated. There's nothing as effective
as stuffing it to the EU for encouraging Brits to do something.

Indeed. Its the patriotic thing to do!

ydoethur

Richard_Nabavi said:

https://twitter.com/rulajebreal/status/1365363549640474627

No. Shit. Sherlocks...

DougSeal

A straw in the wind...

“Majority of work from home job listings now 'temporarily remote', as return to office nears”


https://www.cityam.com/majority-of-work-from-home-job-listings-now-temporarily-remote-as-return-to-office-nears/?

Big_G_NorthWales

malcolmg said:

ThomasNashe said:

Omnium said:

williamglenn said:

geoffw said:

Fantastic! Salmond advises the committee to ask his solicitors for for any information withheld by branches of government, and tells them that the Scotland Act enables this

https://twitter.com/RuthDavidsonMSP/status/1365369267282190336

He's almost a characterisation of the Revenge is a dish best served cold idea.

Are these really the explosive revelations that Salmond clearly thinks they are? I’ve always found his smug, self-satisfied demeanour repellent - and all the more so in the light of the revelations of how he behaved around female subordinates.

Did you listen to it. A masterclass.

I did listen to all of it and it was a masterclass

He was compelling and difficult not to believe

Sturgeon next week will be very interesting after today

CarlottaVance

malcolmg said:

ThomasNashe said:

Omnium said:

williamglenn said:

geoffw said:

Fantastic! Salmond advises the committee to ask his solicitors for for any information withheld by branches of government, and tells them that the Scotland Act enables this

https://twitter.com/RuthDavidsonMSP/status/1365369267282190336

He's almost a characterisation of the Revenge is a dish best served cold idea.

Are these really the explosive revelations that Salmond clearly thinks they are? I’ve always found his smug, self-satisfied demeanour repellent - and all the more so in the light of the revelations of how he behaved around female subordinates.

Did you listen to it. A masterclass.

From the witness yes. Head & shoulders above the current crop (both sides of the border)

Some of his questioners, much less so.....I thought Murdo & Jackie stood out - some of the others did too - for the wrong reasons.....

https://twitter.com/murdo_fraser/status/1365365223633416197?s=20

rottenborough

https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1365370790322053124

Time to engineer a by-election for Ed Balls?

LostPassword

Black_Rook said:

kle4 said:

It's been noted before, that pretty much everywhere significantly increases its willingness as programmes move on, but it is still remarkable how much variance there was to start with.

Even though the UK was already pretty high it is very good that the programme has rolled out well, as there seems to have been no significant anti-vax movement, or even the Macronian stype of uninformed skepticism, among the political classes, which means pretty much no one is being scared off. Even the reporting has not been that bad in the sense of massively panicking over slowdowns or of people dying after receiving a shot.

What's helped a lot is that the communication strategy seems to have consisted largely of a campaign of quiet reassurance by scientists. To the extent that politicians have become involved, it's been entirely to repeat the scientists' messages (and, as you point out, to avoid muddying the waters by contradicting them. There have been a range of views expressed on lockdown, but when it comes to the vaccines everybody is singing from the same hymn sheet.)

Our company CEO (~100 employees) sent us all an email urging us to get vaccinated and with information about the vaccine (including some detailed stuff about the trials and ethnic minorities relevant to our relatively diverse company). There was no implied threat that jobs depend on being vaccinated, just encouragement and good information. I was impressed.

I get the impression that the whole country is willing this on to be as big a success as possible, and those who are a bit reluctant are being gently won round.

Big_G_NorthWales

malcolmg said:

Omnium said:

williamglenn said:

geoffw said:

Fantastic! Salmond advises the committee to ask his solicitors for for any information withheld by branches of government, and tells them that the Scotland Act enables this

https://twitter.com/RuthDavidsonMSP/status/1365369267282190336

He's almost a characterisation of the Revenge is a dish best served cold idea.

Be much wailing and gnashing of teeth at Murrel Towers tonight.

Murrell towers even

ydoethur

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1365370790322053124

Time to engineer a by-election for Ed Balls?

Where? It can’t be London for family reasons, and how many seats in the north of England held by possible fall guys could be considered safe?

(Burgon’s, perhaps, but Burgon will drink Trump’s piss before he lets someone capable take it off him.)

kinabalu

Philip_Thompson said:

Northern_Al said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Great news. The whole of Britain across all nations, parties and cultures is doing a great job getting on with getting vaccinated.

FPT

Northern_Al said:

Philip_Thompson said:

kinabalu said:

Philip_Thompson said:

AlastairMeeks said:

ozymandias said:

AlastairMeeks said:

ozymandias said:

AlastairMeeks said:

ozymandias said:

AlastairMeeks said:

DavidL said:

AlastairMeeks said:

turbotubbs said:

AlastairMeeks said:

kle4 said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Leon said:

DavidL said:

Leon said:

I see the Guardian says the Begum ruling is “controversial”

This is one of those special Guardian word-definitions, where “controversial” means “it dismays three people in Islington”

The view of the court about the respect to be given to the views and judgment of Ministers is something of a throw back and may cause ripples. It is not easy to reconcile that view with the unanimous view of the Court in the Prorogation case, to take an example.

The court over-reached with the prorogation case; this time they are exactly right. These difficult executive decisions must be made by people who are democratically accountable

These two cases are easily reconciled.

In both cases the court found it had the power to intervene. It took the view that it should intervene in the prorogation case because the government was taking the piss (which it was): the government's refusal to give any account under oath for its actions may well have proven fatal to its case. You seem to have forgotten that at the time of the purported prorogation Britain had a Prime Minister who had not been elected at a general election, who did not command a majority in Parliament and indeed had not won a vote in Parliament pursuing a policy that had not been put before the British public and using prorogation as a tool to impose that irreversibly.

In the present case it took the view that the government had acted within the wide latitude granted to governments when taking decisions. Which, given that the Home Secretary was exercising statutory powers given to them in an extreme case, is not all that surprising.

The main consequence of the prorogation case was political. The public decided, unlike in the USA, that they were AOK with self-coups. As a result Britain now has a government with a light attachment to democracy and an extreme aversion to any form of accountability enthusiastically supported by a self-radicalised posse who are quite willing to overlook anything it does, up to and including the avoidable deaths of tens of thousands.

Nice example of ensuring people wont pay attention to your solidly put points because you wanted to indulge in unrelated theatrical condemnation.

Now you can pretend to be affronted when people ignore your good first paras, even though that was presumably your intention and you want Brexiteers to rage at you so you can respond in turn.

Well, each of us has fun in their own way i suppose.

The last bit is the important bit. Tens of thousands of people have died avoidable deaths, but the government's supporters simply don't think that's as important as supporting the government.

I am staggered at the self-degradation of these partisans.

Pot meet kettle. I assume the Italians, French, Germans, Americans (need I go on?) who died were all unavoidable deaths? Or maybe. just maybe there is a nasty virus in worldwide circulation causing epic problems to all governments. Ours has not performed well, I think most would accept that, but they are not the only ones to struggle in this pandemic. At least we have one of the most open and trustworthy reporting systems. How many Chinese died in Wuhan province? How many Spaniards have died (unclear reporting, and a suggestion that that true figure is far higher than the official one?
I get that you hate Brexit and the current government, but you are one of the most blinkered on this site. You are an intelligent man, but your own lack of self awareness is stark.

Britain has done exceptionally badly, in the bottommost tier of countries in its response to Covid-19. Only the most crazed zealots would suggest otherwise.

Sadly, many of those crazed zealots infest this site. Here's the sort of problem that they're determined to avoid discussing:

https://twitter.com/peterjukes/status/1364961983964053511?s=20

I raised this this morning but the hypothesis of that comment that this is something that could have been avoided is at best unproven. As far as we can tell what happened was that Kent variant took a much greater hold in this country than elsewhere, it was far more infectious and possibly marginally more dangerous.

Your default assumption that this was a consequence of government incompetence or ineptitude may prove to be correct but it is an assumption. The UK has the best genomic analysis in the world. By that time (December) it had amongst the best test and trace and was one of the very highest levels of testing. And yet we were still caught with our trousers down. Incompetence? Maybe but it is possible that we did our very best and were simply unlucky.

My memory is good enough to remember early December, when cases in Britain were obviously rising and the government was resisting tightening up. I remember the Prime Minister mocking the Leader of the Opposition for suggesting the same thing.

It was obvious what was happening at the time. And untold thousands paid with their lives because the Prime Minister couldn't bear to do the unpopular but necessary thing.

I'm sure you're diligently noting down in your ledger the untold thousands of EU citizens who will perish completely unnecessarily due to the EU, and various Member State governments, putting political ideology and dogma ahead of the lives of their citizens.

Your position the other night was that this was a pandemic and as such a natural phenomenon for which no government could be blamed for anything at all. Have you yet moved on from that ridiculous position?

Not at all. I'm just naively assuming you must be doing as I mentioned as a logical extension of your criticisms of the UK government.

If you're not then it doesn't bother me, but it would be interesting to know. Unless of course there's axes to be ground.

I don't blame any government for anything as it happens. No government is deliberately seeking to kill their citizens. All are doing what they consider to be the best at the time they make any decision, in rapidly changing situations, with new and constantly evolving scientific evidence or theories.

But if there's an axe to be ground then so be it. Fill your boots. It won't assuage your evident hate of the UK government though. Use your vote instead. If enough people agree with you then democracy will have its say.

I have a feeling though that it won't be your current angst that'll be the undoing of Johnson.

So you do agree that the outrageous number of avoidable deaths that the British government is responsible for is something that they should be held accountable for?

No I don't as I don't consider them to be "outrageous" or ultimately what I would consider to be "avoidable".

Comparatively high to others, at this precise moment in time, yes. Expected, yes.

We have a habit of making our governments "accountable" every 4 or 5 years. If your belief is shared by the majority of people come judgement day then you'll be the first to celebrate I'm sure.

Expected? The fourth worst in the world? This country is well and truly up shit creek if your disgusting complacency about such disastrous performance is widely shared.

Except fourth in the world is not true. There is no semblance of truth to it whatsoever so only someone trying to lie to score partisan points would use that claim.

4th is a frequently quoted (by reputable sources) current estimate of where we stand. It can be disputed - as all precise country comparisons can be - but it's not a bad faith claim. You, OTOH, with nonsense such as "there is no semblance of truth to it whatsoever", are lying.

There is no semblance of truth to it whatsoever. Here are the real officially recorded excess death figures: https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-deaths-tracker

Show me how you can get 4th from that? Or do you think we should be using the guesstimate trackers that we know are missing half or more of some countries deaths?

Which matters more for you: how many people have actually died (excess deaths) or using figures you know are wrong because they put Britain in a bad light (recorded Covid19 deaths)?

I have two very strong suspicions.

a) if the 'official' Covid deaths on Worldometer showed the UK with a much lower death rate than others, you would be trumpeting the government's success ad infinitum, regardless of what excess deaths showed (currently).

b) you will emphatically deny a).

If I did and I was using Worldometer figures that were BS then you would be right to correct the record and point out that they're bullshit.

Everyone agreed early on, before figures showed anything, that the one gold standard true metric during a pandemic is excess deaths. Because some countries (like the UK) do a good job of testing for and accurately recording cause of death, others do not.

What matters more to you:

a) how many have actually died in real life?

b) how many Worldometers claims have died?

a). But neither you, nor I, know how we compare relative to other countries on that measure yet, and we won't for some time. So you going on about it is no different from those going on about b).

a) https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-deaths-tracker

We don't know everything but there's a substantial amount of data there.

Italy until 30/11/20 had 157 excess deaths per 100k population.
Britain until 22/01/21 had 160 excess deaths per 100k population.

Given the figures that have come out from Italy in December and January it seems reasonable to expect more than 3 deaths per 100k in the eight weeks they have missing from the data.

(i) "I disagree with the table showing we are 4th worst in the world on covid outcome. There are other ways of comparing that I think give a fairer result."

(ii) "4th in the world is not true. There is no semblance of truth to it whatsoever."

Language is all there is on an internet forum and you are abusing it here. It's fine - you write what you want - but so will I.

And here I use it to charge and convict you of arguing in bad faith, aka LYING.

MoanR

Question.
Covid-19. What is likely to happen next winter?
What level of problems will we face with Covid-19?
Are we likely to have large number of people in hospital being treated for Covid-19?
Will there still be face masks, social distancing etc?

Time_to_Leave

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1365370790322053124

Time to engineer a by-election for Ed Balls?

To be fair I post here and I’m therefore politically engaged, but if asked unprompted I’m not sure I’d remember Dodds was Shadow CX. I have to look up the other Shadow Ministers every time.

londonpubman

MoanR said:

Question.
Covid-19. What is likely to happen next winter?
What level of problems will we face with Covid-19?
Are we likely to have large number of people in hospital being treated for Covid-19?
Will there still be face masks, social distancing etc?

1. Another round of vaccinations in the autumn, hopefully much lower cases than the winter just gone but still a 'small' spike
2. See 1, hopefully not material but not insignificant
3. No more than 2,000 at any one time, maybe a lot less
4. Masks on public transport and shops until Spring 2022, no (significant) social distancing.

TheScreamingEagles

Richard_Nabavi said:

We shouldn't be surprised by the increase in British willingness to get vaccinated. There's nothing as effective
as stuffing it to the EU for encouraging Brits to do something.

I said to Dave the best way to win the referendum was to tell the public that the French wanted us to Leave.

Remain landslide.

Time_to_Leave

MoanR said:

Question.
Covid-19. What is likely to happen next winter?
What level of problems will we face with Covid-19?
Are we likely to have large number of people in hospital being treated for Covid-19?
Will there still be face masks, social distancing etc?

If nothing else, I think next winter we’ll have a debate about whether masks are a good idea during cold and flu season anyway, if you have any symptoms.

Time_to_Leave

TheScreamingEagles said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

We shouldn't be surprised by the increase in British willingness to get vaccinated. There's nothing as effective
as stuffing it to the EU for encouraging Brits to do something.

I said to Dave the best way to win the referendum was to tell the public that the French wanted us to Leave.

Remain landslide.

Christ, I’d have voted Remain if I thought it would upset the French. It’s the only good argument I’ve heard for rejoining.

turbotubbs

stodge said:

kle4 said:

stodge said:

Evening all

Have to say still no invitation for this 60+ to get a vaccine. Hearing widespread stories of those in their 50s getting a vaccine and the unwillingness of Government to publish detailed figures on the progress of vaccination does make me suspicious the rollout programme is proceeding rapidly in some areas and less well in others.

The cohort of those aged 16-64 with underlying health conditions is admittedly one of the largest at over 7 million nationally but progress through this and down the population appears inconsistent to this observer whatever the national numbers are saying..

Completely consistent progress with such a cohort seems near impossible, but if some areas are particularly bad I hope that gets flagged up quickly. I know a person in their late 20s who has gotten jabbed mere days after their 75+ grandparent, which even with an underlying condition they were surprised at.

Yet Hancock stands up and says the rollout programme "has been equal and fair UK-wide". I certainly believe that has always been the intention and if the problem has been one of supply and logistics, the mood music suggests they won't be an issue in the coming few weeks.

I come back to the point the comment isn't supported either way by numbers showing the detailed breakdown of vaccinations administered by age and area. I believe my part of the world is lagging some other areas and I don't think it's unreasonable for me to ask why this is the case and what the NHS intends to do to mitigate any problem.

Absolutely. They are doing a fine job, but some will always have a less good experience.

Stuartinromford

Philip_Thompson said:

Northern_Al said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Great news. The whole of Britain across all nations, parties and cultures is doing a great job getting on with getting vaccinated.

FPT

Northern_Al said:

Philip_Thompson said:

kinabalu said:

Philip_Thompson said:

AlastairMeeks said:

ozymandias said:

AlastairMeeks said:

ozymandias said:

AlastairMeeks said:

ozymandias said:

AlastairMeeks said:

DavidL said:

AlastairMeeks said:

turbotubbs said:

AlastairMeeks said:

kle4 said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Leon said:

DavidL said:

Leon said:

I see the Guardian says the Begum ruling is “controversial”

This is one of those special Guardian word-definitions, where “controversial” means “it dismays three people in Islington”

The view of the court about the respect to be given to the views and judgment of Ministers is something of a throw back and may cause ripples. It is not easy to reconcile that view with the unanimous view of the Court in the Prorogation case, to take an example.

The court over-reached with the prorogation case; this time they are exactly right. These difficult executive decisions must be made by people who are democratically accountable

These two cases are easily reconciled.

In both cases the court found it had the power to intervene. It took the view that it should intervene in the prorogation case because the government was taking the piss (which it was): the government's refusal to give any account under oath for its actions may well have proven fatal to its case. You seem to have forgotten that at the time of the purported prorogation Britain had a Prime Minister who had not been elected at a general election, who did not command a majority in Parliament and indeed had not won a vote in Parliament pursuing a policy that had not been put before the British public and using prorogation as a tool to impose that irreversibly.

In the present case it took the view that the government had acted within the wide latitude granted to governments when taking decisions. Which, given that the Home Secretary was exercising statutory powers given to them in an extreme case, is not all that surprising.

The main consequence of the prorogation case was political. The public decided, unlike in the USA, that they were AOK with self-coups. As a result Britain now has a government with a light attachment to democracy and an extreme aversion to any form of accountability enthusiastically supported by a self-radicalised posse who are quite willing to overlook anything it does, up to and including the avoidable deaths of tens of thousands.

Nice example of ensuring people wont pay attention to your solidly put points because you wanted to indulge in unrelated theatrical condemnation.

Now you can pretend to be affronted when people ignore your good first paras, even though that was presumably your intention and you want Brexiteers to rage at you so you can respond in turn.

Well, each of us has fun in their own way i suppose.

The last bit is the important bit. Tens of thousands of people have died avoidable deaths, but the government's supporters simply don't think that's as important as supporting the government.

I am staggered at the self-degradation of these partisans.

Pot meet kettle. I assume the Italians, French, Germans, Americans (need I go on?) who died were all unavoidable deaths? Or maybe. just maybe there is a nasty virus in worldwide circulation causing epic problems to all governments. Ours has not performed well, I think most would accept that, but they are not the only ones to struggle in this pandemic. At least we have one of the most open and trustworthy reporting systems. How many Chinese died in Wuhan province? How many Spaniards have died (unclear reporting, and a suggestion that that true figure is far higher than the official one?
I get that you hate Brexit and the current government, but you are one of the most blinkered on this site. You are an intelligent man, but your own lack of self awareness is stark.

Britain has done exceptionally badly, in the bottommost tier of countries in its response to Covid-19. Only the most crazed zealots would suggest otherwise.

Sadly, many of those crazed zealots infest this site. Here's the sort of problem that they're determined to avoid discussing:

https://twitter.com/peterjukes/status/1364961983964053511?s=20

I raised this this morning but the hypothesis of that comment that this is something that could have been avoided is at best unproven. As far as we can tell what happened was that Kent variant took a much greater hold in this country than elsewhere, it was far more infectious and possibly marginally more dangerous.

Your default assumption that this was a consequence of government incompetence or ineptitude may prove to be correct but it is an assumption. The UK has the best genomic analysis in the world. By that time (December) it had amongst the best test and trace and was one of the very highest levels of testing. And yet we were still caught with our trousers down. Incompetence? Maybe but it is possible that we did our very best and were simply unlucky.

My memory is good enough to remember early December, when cases in Britain were obviously rising and the government was resisting tightening up. I remember the Prime Minister mocking the Leader of the Opposition for suggesting the same thing.

It was obvious what was happening at the time. And untold thousands paid with their lives because the Prime Minister couldn't bear to do the unpopular but necessary thing.

I'm sure you're diligently noting down in your ledger the untold thousands of EU citizens who will perish completely unnecessarily due to the EU, and various Member State governments, putting political ideology and dogma ahead of the lives of their citizens.

Your position the other night was that this was a pandemic and as such a natural phenomenon for which no government could be blamed for anything at all. Have you yet moved on from that ridiculous position?

Not at all. I'm just naively assuming you must be doing as I mentioned as a logical extension of your criticisms of the UK government.

If you're not then it doesn't bother me, but it would be interesting to know. Unless of course there's axes to be ground.

I don't blame any government for anything as it happens. No government is deliberately seeking to kill their citizens. All are doing what they consider to be the best at the time they make any decision, in rapidly changing situations, with new and constantly evolving scientific evidence or theories.

But if there's an axe to be ground then so be it. Fill your boots. It won't assuage your evident hate of the UK government though. Use your vote instead. If enough people agree with you then democracy will have its say.

I have a feeling though that it won't be your current angst that'll be the undoing of Johnson.

So you do agree that the outrageous number of avoidable deaths that the British government is responsible for is something that they should be held accountable for?

No I don't as I don't consider them to be "outrageous" or ultimately what I would consider to be "avoidable".

Comparatively high to others, at this precise moment in time, yes. Expected, yes.

We have a habit of making our governments "accountable" every 4 or 5 years. If your belief is shared by the majority of people come judgement day then you'll be the first to celebrate I'm sure.

Expected? The fourth worst in the world? This country is well and truly up shit creek if your disgusting complacency about such disastrous performance is widely shared.

Except fourth in the world is not true. There is no semblance of truth to it whatsoever so only someone trying to lie to score partisan points would use that claim.

4th is a frequently quoted (by reputable sources) current estimate of where we stand. It can be disputed - as all precise country comparisons can be - but it's not a bad faith claim. You, OTOH, with nonsense such as "there is no semblance of truth to it whatsoever", are lying.

There is no semblance of truth to it whatsoever. Here are the real officially recorded excess death figures: https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-deaths-tracker

Show me how you can get 4th from that? Or do you think we should be using the guesstimate trackers that we know are missing half or more of some countries deaths?

Which matters more for you: how many people have actually died (excess deaths) or using figures you know are wrong because they put Britain in a bad light (recorded Covid19 deaths)?

I have two very strong suspicions.

a) if the 'official' Covid deaths on Worldometer showed the UK with a much lower death rate than others, you would be trumpeting the government's success ad infinitum, regardless of what excess deaths showed (currently).

b) you will emphatically deny a).

If I did and I was using Worldometer figures that were BS then you would be right to correct the record and point out that they're bullshit.

Everyone agreed early on, before figures showed anything, that the one gold standard true metric during a pandemic is excess deaths. Because some countries (like the UK) do a good job of testing for and accurately recording cause of death, others do not.

What matters more to you:

a) how many have actually died in real life?

b) how many Worldometers claims have died?

a). But neither you, nor I, know how we compare relative to other countries on that measure yet, and we won't for some time. So you going on about it is no different from those going on about b).

a) https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-deaths-tracker

We don't know everything but there's a substantial amount of data there.

Italy until 30/11/20 had 157 excess deaths per 100k population.
Britain until 22/01/21 had 160 excess deaths per 100k population.

Given the figures that have come out from Italy in December and January it seems reasonable to expect more than 3 deaths per 100k in the eight weeks they have missing from the data.

You do realise that death data to 21/1/21 misses a large part of the UK's post-Christmas spike, don't you?

kle4

Time_to_Leave said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1365370790322053124

Time to engineer a by-election for Ed Balls?

To be fair I post here and I’m therefore politically engaged, but if asked unprompted I’m not sure I’d remember Dodds was Shadow CX. I have to look up the other Shadow Ministers every time.

I find that she has become memorable for me because people talk about how unmemorable she is. Contrarily, I'd have no idea who the Shadow Home Secretary is.

Richard_Tyndall

LostPassword said:

Black_Rook said:

kle4 said:

It's been noted before, that pretty much everywhere significantly increases its willingness as programmes move on, but it is still remarkable how much variance there was to start with.

Even though the UK was already pretty high it is very good that the programme has rolled out well, as there seems to have been no significant anti-vax movement, or even the Macronian stype of uninformed skepticism, among the political classes, which means pretty much no one is being scared off. Even the reporting has not been that bad in the sense of massively panicking over slowdowns or of people dying after receiving a shot.

What's helped a lot is that the communication strategy seems to have consisted largely of a campaign of quiet reassurance by scientists. To the extent that politicians have become involved, it's been entirely to repeat the scientists' messages (and, as you point out, to avoid muddying the waters by contradicting them. There have been a range of views expressed on lockdown, but when it comes to the vaccines everybody is singing from the same hymn sheet.)

Our company CEO (~100 employees) sent us all an email urging us to get vaccinated and with information about the vaccine (including some detailed stuff about the trials and ethnic minorities relevant to our relatively diverse company). There was no implied threat that jobs depend on being vaccinated, just encouragement and good information. I was impressed.

I get the impression that the whole country is willing this on to be as big a success as possible, and those who are a bit reluctant are being gently won round.

It was also interesting in the news conference this lunchtime, those running the vaccination campaign said they are looking for maximum flexibility and targeted messages to try and deal with any who are reluctant to have the jab. As I said before, using mosques and temples as vaccination centres to overcome any possible religious objections is a great idea. I think that, to date at least, the way in which the vaccination programme has been run is just as masterful as the original decisions to obtain vaccines as early as possible.

TheScreamingEagles

Time_to_Leave said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

We shouldn't be surprised by the increase in British willingness to get vaccinated. There's nothing as effective
as stuffing it to the EU for encouraging Brits to do something.

I said to Dave the best way to win the referendum was to tell the public that the French wanted us to Leave.

Remain landslide.

Christ, I’d have voted Remain if I thought it would upset the French. It’s the only good argument I’ve heard for rejoining.

On the 21/22 of June 2016 most of the French media wanted us to Leave, I did flag it up.

https://www.politico.eu/blogs/on-media/2016/06/et-nous-where-frances-big-newspapers-stand-on-brexit/

CarlottaVance

I'm sure normal service will be resumed soon enough:

The stumbles by the world’s richest bloc of nations have turned vaccine politics toxic. Particularly galling to many Europeans is the sight of a former E.U. member, Britain, forging ahead with its vaccination and reopening plans, while E.U. societies remain under lockdown amid a new surge of dangerous variants, their economies sinking deeper into recession.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/26/world/europe/EU-vaccine-hunt.html?smid=tw-share

rottenborough

Time_to_Leave said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1365370790322053124

Time to engineer a by-election for Ed Balls?

To be fair I post here and I’m therefore politically engaged, but if asked unprompted I’m not sure I’d remember Dodds was Shadow CX. I have to look up the other Shadow Ministers every time.

I know Ed Miliband is in shadow cabinet.

Er... that's about it.

kle4

MoanR said:

Question.
Covid-19. What is likely to happen next winter?
What level of problems will we face with Covid-19?
Are we likely to have large number of people in hospital being treated for Covid-19?
Will there still be face masks, social distancing etc?

I would not be surprised if we have top up vaccinations in the autumn, but that there is a push for use of face masks without it being law, on the basis that it might well cut down on the annual flu anyway.

rottenborough

ydoethur said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1365370790322053124

Time to engineer a by-election for Ed Balls?

Where? It can’t be London for family reasons, and how many seats in the north of England held by possible fall guys could be considered safe?

(Burgon’s, perhaps, but Burgon will drink Trump’s piss before he lets someone capable take it off him.)

Liam Byrne wins the W Mids mayor job in May?

RobD

CarlottaVance said:

I'm sure normal service will be resumed soon enough:

The stumbles by the world’s richest bloc of nations have turned vaccine politics toxic. Particularly galling to many Europeans is the sight of a former E.U. member, Britain, forging ahead with its vaccination and reopening plans, while E.U. societies remain under lockdown amid a new surge of dangerous variants, their economies sinking deeper into recession.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/26/world/europe/EU-vaccine-hunt.html?smid=tw-share

Sputtering!

Roger

CarlottaVance said:

malcolmg said:

ThomasNashe said:

Omnium said:

williamglenn said:

geoffw said:

Fantastic! Salmond advises the committee to ask his solicitors for for any information withheld by branches of government, and tells them that the Scotland Act enables this

https://twitter.com/RuthDavidsonMSP/status/1365369267282190336

He's almost a characterisation of the Revenge is a dish best served cold idea.

Are these really the explosive revelations that Salmond clearly thinks they are? I’ve always found his smug, self-satisfied demeanour repellent - and all the more so in the light of the revelations of how he behaved around female subordinates.

Did you listen to it. A masterclass.

From the witness yes. Head & shoulders above the current crop (both sides of the border)

Some of his questioners, much less so.....I thought Murdo & Jackie stood out - some of the others did too - for the wrong reasons.....

https://twitter.com/murdo_fraser/status/1365365223633416197?s=20

Enemies enemies make strange bedfellows. You of all people Carlotta standing four square behind one of the most appalling misogynists* in British politics.

(Forgive me quoting Ruth Davidson)

Andy_JS

kle4 said:

MoanR said:

Question.
Covid-19. What is likely to happen next winter?
What level of problems will we face with Covid-19?
Are we likely to have large number of people in hospital being treated for Covid-19?
Will there still be face masks, social distancing etc?

I would not be surprised if we have top up vaccinations in the autumn, but that there is a push for use of face masks without it being law, on the basis that it might well cut down on the annual flu anyway.

That mustn't happen IMO. No facemasks for normal life, and flu is part of normal life.

FrankBooth

Time_to_Leave said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

We shouldn't be surprised by the increase in British willingness to get vaccinated. There's nothing as effective
as stuffing it to the EU for encouraging Brits to do something.

I said to Dave the best way to win the referendum was to tell the public that the French wanted us to Leave.

Remain landslide.

Christ, I’d have voted Remain if I thought it would upset the French. It’s the only good argument I’ve heard for rejoining.

I wanted to remain but I want the French to be happy too. You can't have it all.

Pulpstar

Richard_Nabavi said:

We shouldn't be surprised by the increase in British willingness to get vaccinated. There's nothing as effective
as stuffing it to the EU for encouraging Brits to do something.

The vaccine sceptical in other nations (I'm primarily thinking of the US) are on the right. So having a populist Gov't to the right of centre vigourously promoting the vaccine probably isn't a bad thing for vaccine takeup either.

kle4

Andy_JS said:

kle4 said:

MoanR said:

Question.
Covid-19. What is likely to happen next winter?
What level of problems will we face with Covid-19?
Are we likely to have large number of people in hospital being treated for Covid-19?
Will there still be face masks, social distancing etc?

I would not be surprised if we have top up vaccinations in the autumn, but that there is a push for use of face masks without it being law, on the basis that it might well cut down on the annual flu anyway.

That mustn't happen IMO. No facemasks for normal life, and flu is part of normal life.

I don't like facemasks either, but if it is not law but people choose to do it what business is that of yours or mine?

Cookie

turbotubbs said:

stodge said:

kle4 said:

stodge said:

Evening all

Have to say still no invitation for this 60+ to get a vaccine. Hearing widespread stories of those in their 50s getting a vaccine and the unwillingness of Government to publish detailed figures on the progress of vaccination does make me suspicious the rollout programme is proceeding rapidly in some areas and less well in others.

The cohort of those aged 16-64 with underlying health conditions is admittedly one of the largest at over 7 million nationally but progress through this and down the population appears inconsistent to this observer whatever the national numbers are saying..

Completely consistent progress with such a cohort seems near impossible, but if some areas are particularly bad I hope that gets flagged up quickly. I know a person in their late 20s who has gotten jabbed mere days after their 75+ grandparent, which even with an underlying condition they were surprised at.

Yet Hancock stands up and says the rollout programme "has been equal and fair UK-wide". I certainly believe that has always been the intention and if the problem has been one of supply and logistics, the mood music suggests they won't be an issue in the coming few weeks.

I come back to the point the comment isn't supported either way by numbers showing the detailed breakdown of vaccinations administered by age and area. I believe my part of the world is lagging some other areas and I don't think it's unreasonable for me to ask why this is the case and what the NHS intends to do to mitigate any problem.

Absolutely. They are doing a fine job, but some will always have a less good experience.

Couldn't London be lagging because a) it has fewer old people, and b) there are more vaccine-sceptical ethnic minorities?

TheScreamingEagles

kle4 said:

MoanR said:

Question.
Covid-19. What is likely to happen next winter?
What level of problems will we face with Covid-19?
Are we likely to have large number of people in hospital being treated for Covid-19?
Will there still be face masks, social distancing etc?

I would not be surprised if we have top up vaccinations in the autumn, but that there is a push for use of face masks without it being law, on the basis that it might well cut down on the annual flu anyway.

I think voluntary face masks, social distancing, and hand sanitiser are here to stay.

TheScreamingEagles

Andy_JS said:

kle4 said:

MoanR said:

Question.
Covid-19. What is likely to happen next winter?
What level of problems will we face with Covid-19?
Are we likely to have large number of people in hospital being treated for Covid-19?
Will there still be face masks, social distancing etc?

I would not be surprised if we have top up vaccinations in the autumn, but that there is a push for use of face masks without it being law, on the basis that it might well cut down on the annual flu anyway.

That mustn't happen IMO. No facemasks for normal life, and flu is part of normal life.

Very illiberal of you to outlaw what people choose to wear.

Andy_JS

stodge said:

Evening all

Have to say still no invitation for this 60+ to get a vaccine. Hearing widespread stories of those in their 50s getting a vaccine and the unwillingness of Government to publish detailed figures on the progress of vaccination does make me suspicious the rollout programme is proceeding rapidly in some areas and less well in others.

The cohort of those aged 16-64 with underlying health conditions is admittedly one of the largest at over 7 million nationally but progress through this and down the population appears inconsistent to this observer whatever the national numbers are saying..

People aged 65+ can arrange a jab themselves on the website.

Pulpstar

Facemasks in the supermarket and on public transport might not be a bad idea. Down the pub, god no.

Luckyguy1983

ydoethur said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

https://twitter.com/rulajebreal/status/1365363549640474627

No. Shit. Sherlocks...

Worth every penny the US spends on them.

RobD

Cookie said:

turbotubbs said:

stodge said:

kle4 said:

stodge said:

Evening all

Have to say still no invitation for this 60+ to get a vaccine. Hearing widespread stories of those in their 50s getting a vaccine and the unwillingness of Government to publish detailed figures on the progress of vaccination does make me suspicious the rollout programme is proceeding rapidly in some areas and less well in others.

The cohort of those aged 16-64 with underlying health conditions is admittedly one of the largest at over 7 million nationally but progress through this and down the population appears inconsistent to this observer whatever the national numbers are saying..

Completely consistent progress with such a cohort seems near impossible, but if some areas are particularly bad I hope that gets flagged up quickly. I know a person in their late 20s who has gotten jabbed mere days after their 75+ grandparent, which even with an underlying condition they were surprised at.

Yet Hancock stands up and says the rollout programme "has been equal and fair UK-wide". I certainly believe that has always been the intention and if the problem has been one of supply and logistics, the mood music suggests they won't be an issue in the coming few weeks.

I come back to the point the comment isn't supported either way by numbers showing the detailed breakdown of vaccinations administered by age and area. I believe my part of the world is lagging some other areas and I don't think it's unreasonable for me to ask why this is the case and what the NHS intends to do to mitigate any problem.

Absolutely. They are doing a fine job, but some will always have a less good experience.

Couldn't London be lagging because a) it has fewer old people, and b) there are more vaccine-sceptical ethnic minorities?

That should have the opposite effect, as more doses will be available for the younger.