It comes back to being prepared to be rude to some communities/beliefs - in the interest of society as a whole.
We are going to have fun in the next year - companies will start demanding COVID vaccinations, as condition of employment. People will be arguing in court this is against their rights
I really hope this sort of nonsense is stopped. It is no more a breach of their rights than it is to expect someone handling food to take a course in food safety and hygiene and to wash their hands regularly, not come into work if they are ill etc.
Vaccination is not against anyone's beliefs and if someone does not want to have one then they need to accept the consequences for themselves of their actions. Not seek to pass those consequences onto others.
The Orthodox Jewish community is behaving disgracefully in flouting the regulations in this way. I really don't see why they should be treated as exempt from the rules or their enforcement.
Given that personal non-religious beliefs (the case of the eco type and booking flights for his bosses, IIRC) have been protected, in the UK...
It will be interesting to see where this lands.
As to why they think they are exempt - it is policy to treat such community beliefs as suitable for creating exceptions. That is ingrained in the structure of government - not just a policy of the politicians. It is a policy of the system itself.
You don't have to look that hard to find Starmer statements / actions at odds with his current inage. I mean he played up how much of a leftie he was during the leadership race, then immediately switched.
I don't think so. The key thing is he says "used to" - he just needs to say clearly how much respect he has for Her Maj and that it serves the country well etc. etc.
Nah, you can't row back from that. It's only sixteen years ago. He was a senior QC and comfortably into his forties by then - he wasn't a trendy student. And it's clear from his smile and body language he believes it.
Of course, he will try - but he won't be believed.
It's not a mistake Blair (or even Brown) would have ever made.
He was clearly trying to be a bit clever in that interview ("ha ha, they made a Republican a QC"), but I don't think he was suggesting that he still held that view.
He comes across as a bit of a smug git, but that's about it.
Of course you can be left-wing and patriotic. Jim Callaghan, Harold Wilson, Clement Atlee, George Orwell, etc.
I do not think Harold Wilson was portrayed as patriotic by the opposition at the time. He was accused of been a spy for the soviet Union. Also as anti American for not sending in troops to Vietnam to support the USA
You don't have to look that hard to find Starmer statements / actions at odds with his current inage. I mean he played up how much of a leftie he was during the leadership race, then immediately switched.
Starmer is a "nice guy" but views politics as a real-time tactical challenge of presentation and triangulation.
I don't think so. The key thing is he says "used to" - he just needs to say clearly how much respect he has for Her Maj and that it serves the country well etc. etc.
Nah, you can't row back from that. It's only sixteen years ago. He was a senior QC and comfortably into his forties by then - he wasn't a trendy student. And it's clear from his smile and body language he believes it.
Of course, he will try - but he won't be believed.
It's not a mistake Blair (or even Brown) would have ever made.
It was well-dug-out by someone !
Doubly so, given that he wasn't much of a public figure at the time. He didn't become DPP until 2008.
But yes it will be a bigger issue for him. Because he already has a patriotism issue and frankly Liz Truss does not.
When you lose the benefit of the doubt it becomes harder to avoid tough questions.
Anyone with an unaddled brain would think a Royal Family is a bonkers idea!! If we didn't have one we'd be laughing ourselves stupid at the the likes of Saudi Arabia for even thinking of the idea.
I think most commentators and on here are underestimating the economic tsunami coming our way. Any government would be effected by it , and how it handles the debt once the pandemic is eventually under control.
It's pretty obvious how they are going to handle it; keep borrowing and let inflation rip.
What are the other options?
I have only seen very low inflation throughout my entire adult life. To be honest I'm quite fearful of it.
You don't have to look that hard to find Starmer statements / actions at odds with his current inage. I mean he played up how much of a leftie he was during the leadership race, then immediately switched.
Starmer is a "nice guy" but views politics as a real-time tactical challenge of presentation and triangulation.
He risks losing everyone with that approach.
You cannot make yourself into something you are not just because you think it will be popular
Not good. Forgive my ignorance but do you know if synagogues are still holding services?
This is grim in the circumstances, but also oddly expressed. Time to become a Christian man...
'Even after adjusting for socio-economic factors, data from Public Health England shows that Jewish men are twice as likely to die from Covid-19 than Christian men in the UK.'
I don't know the answer to that but many families will have twelve children or more and social distancing will be non existent. Many of course have the quaint belief that him upstairs will look after them which is another problem.
Youi really are unpleasant.
What gives you the right to trash a religions views, other than arrogance and intolerance of other peoples views
If they want go believe in their God who are you to make snide remarks about something they hold dear
I am not Jewish and have no reason to defend them but it tires me when I see such prejudice
Article 16 exists because the people of the island of Ireland are unable to agree either to be one country, or to be two areas both in the same trading bloc, or to have a meaningful border. That is not directly an issue for the E, W or S bits of the UK, none of whom have a selfish desire either to retain or relinquish attachments on the island. It is a matter for the Irish. Their ungrownup politics has been tolerated and smiled upon for too long.
You don't have to look that hard to find Starmer statements / actions at odds with his current inage. I mean he played up how much of a leftie he was during the leadership race, then immediately switched.
Starmer is a "nice guy" but views politics as a real-time tactical challenge of presentation and triangulation.
He risks losing everyone with that approach.
You cannot make yourself into something you are not just because you think it will be popular
You have to believe in it in the first place
(whispers) Are you going to tell the PM, or shall I?
Not good. Forgive my ignorance but do you know if synagogues are still holding services?
This is grim in the circumstances, but also oddly expressed. Time to become a Christian man...
'Even after adjusting for socio-economic factors, data from Public Health England shows that Jewish men are twice as likely to die from Covid-19 than Christian men in the UK.'
I don't know the answer to that but many families will have twelve children or more and social distancing will be non existent. Many of course have the quaint belief that him upstairs will look after them which is another problem.
Youi really are unpleasant.
What gives you the right to trash a religions views, other than arrogance and intolerance of other peoples views
If they want go believe in their God who are you to make snide remarks about something they hold dear
I am not Jewish and have no reason to defend them but it tires me when I see such prejudice
Yes, but Siemens can now get these slaves to build dishwashers for less money than they would need to pay someone in Europe so who cares about that, I mean China have given the EU a "best efforts" commitment to abolish it, we know how much that means.
Morning all! Have we already talked about Labour's plans to de-twat themselves by slapping on lots of union jacks? It reads like a brilliant piece of dumb focus group research, "ex-voters actually like this country, bizarrely, so lets dress up like them to make them like us".
If Tony Blair was leader, and was convincing on that front with a front-bench of eager reformers, then yes, that's the strategy. Sadly Keir "we're here to hear" Starmer is leader, half the front bench are "who?" and the back benches are stuffed full of nutters.
I was a member of the Labour Party for 25 years. I really struggle to understand what it is about and who it thinks it is speaking to - and this dumb "stick a flag in the background" effort will convince nobody. Had Keith purged the nutters, said mea maxima culpa and spent the last year actually reforming the party in the background then maybe.
Not letting the Tories own patriotism - especially after all the harm they have done with it - is a good thing. That's where I start from on this. Beyond that, wrapping the flag around higher public spending, fair wages for essential workers, a strong NHS, a better deal for schools, a decent and dignified care system, more affordable housing, tolerance, openness and solidarity is absolutely what Labour should be doing. These are all values that most voters will identify with. The Corbyn years caused immense harm to Labour's image as a party that actually liked the country it wanted to govern. You have to start somewhere in changing that. And in terms of party control, Starmer is pretty much there. He now owns the NEC and the PLP. The nutters are leaving, as the fall in membership demonstrates. Still a long, long way to go. But progress is being made.
It's not the Tories owning patriotism that is the issue. It is Labour owning - for decades - national self-loathing. Sticking a few flags on a PPB isn't going to convince anybody that behind their hands, Labour isn't laughing at the insincerity of its own actions.
The embodiment of Labour's problem here is Emily Thornberry tweeting about the ridiculousness of draping flags over your house. Anyone want to assess her private views on this new policy. a) Yes Leader, I'm right behind you. I love a flag. I love OUR flag or b) pfffft - what bullshit?
You make my point for me. Disliking the Tory version of patriotism is not self-loathing. It is disliking the Tory version of patriotism - one that has led us to where we are today: a horribly divided country which erects barriers to trade and celebrates removing freedoms from its citizens. Patriotism doesn't have to be like that.
Gloriously showing why Labour will get stuffed next time too. The citizens voted to remove those freedoms from its citizens. It was the result of democracy.
And SKS and the Labour movement love flags, for sure. We have seen them emblazoned everywhere. They fly flags VERY proudly. Unfortunately, for the past five years, that flag has been gold stars on a blue background.
If you want to stop dividing this country, stop flying the flag of a foreign power all over your social media presence, Remainers. That is a weird type of patriotism you've got there....
It's not just the EU flag. Trade union flags, Palestine, etc. There are plenty of flags on all sides. The strange thing is that in lots of countries e.g. France there is no problem or insinuations about self gratification related to the flag, whereas in the UK it seems to be different.
Because there's nothing wrong with flags.
The problem is that some people hate their own country. They hate what the flag represents. They are ashamed of their own nation and loathe to see their own flag as a result.
An embarrassing post.
Embarrassing for you maybe, since you're a prime person who hates his own country and loathes his own national flag.
You go further though into hating your own compatriots. You should be banished to Hartlepool until you can get over your irrationality.
I think it's a problem for Labour that it dominates almost every university constituency. It makes them dependent on voters whose world outlook is very much removed from the median.
But yes it will be a bigger issue for him. Because he already has a patriotism issue and frankly Liz Truss does not.
When you lose the benefit of the doubt it becomes harder to avoid tough questions.
Anyone with an unaddled brain would think a Royal Family is a bonkers idea!! If we didn't have one we'd be laughing ourselves stupid at the the likes of Saudi Arabia for even thinking of the idea.
You must spend a lot of time laughing yourself stupid at Sweden, Denmark, Norway, the Netherlands, Spain, and Belgium then. Losers
Not good. Forgive my ignorance but do you know if synagogues are still holding services?
This is grim in the circumstances, but also oddly expressed. Time to become a Christian man...
'Even after adjusting for socio-economic factors, data from Public Health England shows that Jewish men are twice as likely to die from Covid-19 than Christian men in the UK.'
I don't know the answer to that but many families will have twelve children or more and social distancing will be non existent. Many of course have the quaint belief that him upstairs will look after them which is another problem.
Youi really are unpleasant.
What gives you the right to trash a religions views, other than arrogance and intolerance of other peoples views
If they want go believe in their God who are you to make snide remarks about something they hold dear
I am not Jewish and have no reason to defend them but it tires me when I see such prejudice
Will Johnson get asked about stepping up school openings at PMQs?
Brady on the radio this morning was getting his freak on.
He won't be alone.
Brady has been getting his freak on all pandemic. If we'd listened to him things would be far worse now.
As much as the girls want to go back to school (and I'd be happy for it to happen), the proposal of giving 2 weeks notice for future changes to schools is a good one.
I was worried schools wouldn't be going back until after the Easter break, which pushes us into April before they go back. Saying they'll go on the 8th March instead - I doubt many people will quibble over a fortnight.
I don't think so. The key thing is he says "used to" - he just needs to say clearly how much respect he has for Her Maj and that it serves the country well etc. etc.
Of course it's going to be a fucking problem. This is the new patriotism. If you don't gush about how the Queen has served the nation for 60 years by being driven to the races in a Bentley and selflessly accepting 40,000 bunches of flowers you are fucked.
He will just have to hope the Queen rolls a two before the next GE as republicanism will be very much in vogue once we have King Gobshite and his nervous wreck heir.
I don't think so. The key thing is he says "used to" - he just needs to say clearly how much respect he has for Her Maj and that it serves the country well etc. etc.
Nah, you can't row back from that. It's only sixteen years ago. He was a senior QC and comfortably into his forties by then - he wasn't a trendy student. And it's clear from his smile and body language he believes it.
Of course, he will try - but he won't be believed.
It's not a mistake Blair (or even Brown) would have ever made.
So you haven't changed your views on anything in 16 years?
Not good. Forgive my ignorance but do you know if synagogues are still holding services?
This is grim in the circumstances, but also oddly expressed. Time to become a Christian man...
'Even after adjusting for socio-economic factors, data from Public Health England shows that Jewish men are twice as likely to die from Covid-19 than Christian men in the UK.'
Some synagogues are still, unbelievably, holding regular services. Mine stayed open for a bit during lockdown but then shut after Sadiq Khan led a push to close all places of worship (one of the few things he's ever done I can unconditionally support).
Worth noting that the report Roger links to relates to (as far as I can tell) the ultra-orthodox community specifically, which is a fairly small and self-contained part of the wider community. Although it's pretty clear that the findings are applicable to both, albeit to differing extents.
Some church 'leaders' (whatever that means) are taking the Scottish government to court for not allowing any church services. One of them was interviewed on the radio on Sunday and the air of messianic entitlement was gobsmacking:
In this time of crisis coming together and witnessing the good news of Jesus is the only way we can bring redemption to the world (I paraphrase but only in detail not intent).
It is also absurd because streaming of services is possible. It is what my church did during the first lockdown. Not ideal, obviously. But nothing is at the moment. When so many are making sacrifices - often at great cost to themselves - I find myself increasingly annoyed with those demanding special privileges.
You don't have to look that hard to find Starmer statements / actions at odds with his current inage. I mean he played up how much of a leftie he was during the leadership race, then immediately switched.
Starmer is a "nice guy" but views politics as a real-time tactical challenge of presentation and triangulation.
He risks losing everyone with that approach.
You cannot make yourself into something you are not just because you think it will be popular
You have to believe in it in the first place
(whispers) Are you going to tell the PM, or shall I?
On being patriotic I do not think I need to tell Boris anything
FPT, I'd recommend Sean Trende's brilliant article "The God That Failed" which destroys the idea that a political party can rely upon changing demographics to propel it to victory.
Not good. Forgive my ignorance but do you know if synagogues are still holding services?
This is grim in the circumstances, but also oddly expressed. Time to become a Christian man...
'Even after adjusting for socio-economic factors, data from Public Health England shows that Jewish men are twice as likely to die from Covid-19 than Christian men in the UK.'
Some synagogues are still, unbelievably, holding regular services. Mine stayed open for a bit during lockdown but then shut after Sadiq Khan led a push to close all places of worship (one of the few things he's ever done I can unconditionally support).
Worth noting that the report Roger links to relates to (as far as I can tell) the ultra-orthodox community specifically, which is a fairly small and self-contained part of the wider community. Although it's pretty clear that the findings are applicable to both, albeit to differing extents.
Some church 'leaders' (whatever that means) are taking the Scottish government to court for not allowing any church services. One of them was interviewed on the radio on Sunday and the air of messianic entitlement was gobsmacking:
In this time of crisis coming together and witnessing the good news of Jesus is the only way we can bring redemption to the world (I paraphrase but only in detail not intent).
The thing is, this attitude worked pretty well for thousands of years - religion was a good way of helping people come to terms with random acts of chaos inflicted upon them by a seemingly uncaring universe. Communal prayers and support networks did a lot of good during times when we (as a species) couldn't do much else.
The problem is that, now that we have much more effective means of addressing the problem head on (rather than simply coping with the effects), it's difficult to switch gears and suddenly ditch all the previously comforting defence mechanisms that have been put up.
Which is not an excuse. But it does serve to explain the mindset.
Yep, this is transformational for the rep of the Oxford vaccine. There had been a growing perception - shared by me if I'm honest - that Oxford Astra was not The One That You Want. It was a fob off. Worthy enough, and not to be dissed, but mediocre compared to the elegant & efficacious Pfizer. No longer. And it's particularly good news that the 12 week interregnum is ok - perhaps more than ok - and that the vaccine seriously reduces infection and thus spread.
You don't have to look that hard to find Starmer statements / actions at odds with his current inage. I mean he played up how much of a leftie he was during the leadership race, then immediately switched.
Starmer is a "nice guy" but views politics as a real-time tactical challenge of presentation and triangulation.
He risks losing everyone with that approach.
You cannot make yourself into something you are not just because you think it will be popular
Yes, but Siemens can now get these slaves to build dishwashers for less money than they would need to pay someone in Europe so who cares about that, I mean China have given the EU a "best efforts" commitment to abolish it, we know how much that means.
The EU only asked for Best Efforts as they don't understand what it actually means (as demonstrated by the EU AZN battle all of last week).
I doubt that one comment will do Starmer much harm, but we do know his current image is being carefully crafted, unlike Jezza willing to say things that previously he would never as his eye is on the prize of winning, not sticking to appearing idealogically pure.
Err he is up against Boris? Anyone who votes for Boris ahead of Starmer simply because Starmer's image is carefully crafted is a bit weird imo.
Telling comment, "neccessary at a good price". Like buying widgets....
Shame she ignored the "every day matters" bit. In the cost benefit analysis for vaccines, rapid results means trillions of dollars, globally. And you can vaccinate the entire globe for a few tens of billions.
Haggling was utterly pointless.
I'd suggest it was worse than pointless, it's resulting in a vaccine shortage and political game playing by politicians to reduce demand for them.
The latest AZ study from last night is absolutely incredible and it was done in the background of the Brazil variant for around half the cohort so to come out at 82% efficacy against any symptoms, a two thirds reduction in infection and a 100% reduction in severe symptoms, hospitalisation and death is the best news we've had since the start of this. A $4 vaccine will save millions of lives.
Strange that most commentators are still missing imo the big strategic error:
First half is to behave like someone buying unusual cabbages at an auction. Second half is that others started cabbage farms.
On the tape I think it is June 17, talking about a get-together 10 days later.
When did others start working on the problem?
AZ vaccine was into trials by the end of March, and ginger groups were talking in Jan/Feb, and they had Govt money in March.
Not good. Forgive my ignorance but do you know if synagogues are still holding services?
This is grim in the circumstances, but also oddly expressed. Time to become a Christian man...
'Even after adjusting for socio-economic factors, data from Public Health England shows that Jewish men are twice as likely to die from Covid-19 than Christian men in the UK.'
Some synagogues are still, unbelievably, holding regular services. Mine stayed open for a bit during lockdown but then shut after Sadiq Khan led a push to close all places of worship (one of the few things he's ever done I can unconditionally support).
Worth noting that the report Roger links to relates to (as far as I can tell) the ultra-orthodox community specifically, which is a fairly small and self-contained part of the wider community. Although it's pretty clear that the findings are applicable to both, albeit to differing extents.
Some church 'leaders' (whatever that means) are taking the Scottish government to court for not allowing any church services. One of them was interviewed on the radio on Sunday and the air of messianic entitlement was gobsmacking:
In this time of crisis coming together and witnessing the good news of Jesus is the only way we can bring redemption to the world (I paraphrase but only in detail not intent).
It is also absurd because streaming of services is possible. It is what my church did during the first lockdown. Not ideal, obviously. But nothing is at the moment. When so many are making sacrifices - often at great cost to themselves - I find myself increasingly annoyed with those demanding special privileges.
Depends on your religion. Within (Orthodox) Judaism, streaming the service is pointless because prayer is intended to be communal, which requires a physical presence.
You don't have to look that hard to find Starmer statements / actions at odds with his current inage. I mean he played up how much of a leftie he was during the leadership race, then immediately switched.
Starmer is a "nice guy" but views politics as a real-time tactical challenge of presentation and triangulation.
He risks losing everyone with that approach.
You cannot make yourself into something you are not just because you think it will be popular
You have to believe in it in the first place
(whispers) Are you going to tell the PM, or shall I?
On being patriotic I do not think I need to tell Boris anything
And everything else? Boris has many good attributes, but integrity of deep beliefs over what will make him popular isn't one of them.
Yep, this is transformational for the rep of the Oxford vaccine. There had been a growing perception - shared by me if I'm honest - that Oxford Astra was not The One That You Want. It was a fob off. Worthy enough, and not to be dissed, but mediocre compared to the elegant & efficacious Pfizer. No longer. And it's particularly good news that the 12 week interregnum is ok - perhaps more than ok - and that the vaccine seriously reduces infection and thus spread.
Its more than ok...the paper indicates you don't want it too soon after the 1st dose.
IMO I think we will probably find in the "real world", with some tweaks to the dosing strategies and vaccine themselves, that they will probably all end up as much of a muchness.
mRNA technology is the future though, because of how simple it is to retool for tweaks. If they can solve the stability issue (which Imperial were working on), it has so many potential uses.
With respect, I don't think it will be. The people who this really aggravates will already be Tory voters of long standing. I grew up and have lived most of my life in the red wall. There are plenty of, even elderly Brexit voters who are, at best, ambivalent about the monarchy. I've never seen the Queen's Speech, I know many, many people who've never watched it. When there was the big anniversary the other year for the Queen with street parties and the like, well there weren't any round here, it passed with a blip.
The monarchy matters to Tories, and perhaps to some of the more elderly working class types, the Mail readers. My Grandma, Gawd Bless Her, was a great collector of royal memorabilia, when we emptied her house recently there were tons of those commemorative mugs and plates for weddings and births and the like going back years. But she was a lifelong working class Tory. But for most of us they are irrelevant, remote, southern and, perhaps worst of all, posh.
I could be wrong, maybe it'll be another effective front in the culture war.
I thought the regulations prevented foreign holidays. You could not even leave a Tier 4 area.
Don't care about the Captain - can quite understand why a free holiday at age 100 would appeal. But as a more general point, were foreign holidays permitted?
When he went, yes.
Extraordinary. So my husband could not travel up here - where he would have been safer than in London - and as a result caught the virus. But others could travel half-way round the globe.
These sort of half-arsed rules are one reason why the epidemic is so much worse than it could have been.
You don't have to look that hard to find Starmer statements / actions at odds with his current inage. I mean he played up how much of a leftie he was during the leadership race, then immediately switched.
Starmer is a "nice guy" but views politics as a real-time tactical challenge of presentation and triangulation.
He risks losing everyone with that approach.
You cannot make yourself into something you are not just because you think it will be popular
You have to believe in it in the first place
(whispers) Are you going to tell the PM, or shall I?
On being patriotic I do not think I need to tell Boris anything
And everything else? Boris has many good attributes, but integrity of deep beliefs over what will make him popular isn't one of them.
I do not disagree but I was commenting on the subject of Starmer and being patriotic
I don't think so. The key thing is he says "used to" - he just needs to say clearly how much respect he has for Her Maj and that it serves the country well etc. etc.
Nah, you can't row back from that. It's only sixteen years ago. He was a senior QC and comfortably into his forties by then - he wasn't a trendy student. And it's clear from his smile and body language he believes it.
Of course, he will try - but he won't be believed.
It's not a mistake Blair (or even Brown) would have ever made.
You're rather over-egging this. It was 2005 - long before Starmer was even an MP. The current PM has a long list of 'big problems' in the past, some of them quite serious, that the electorate clearly forgave him for in 2019.
As it happens, I suspect a more serious debate about the future of the monarchy will come to pass once the current Queen dies (after a year or so of suitable grieving, of course).
Not good. Forgive my ignorance but do you know if synagogues are still holding services?
This is grim in the circumstances, but also oddly expressed. Time to become a Christian man...
'Even after adjusting for socio-economic factors, data from Public Health England shows that Jewish men are twice as likely to die from Covid-19 than Christian men in the UK.'
I don't know the answer to that but many families will have twelve children or more and social distancing will be non existent. Many of course have the quaint belief that him upstairs will look after them which is another problem.
Youi really are unpleasant.
What gives you the right to trash a religions views, other than arrogance and intolerance of other peoples views
If they want go believe in their God who are you to make snide remarks about something they hold dear
I am not Jewish and have no reason to defend them but it tires me when I see such prejudice
I'm sorry I don't understand? I have relatives who live in Stamford HIll who are part of that community and I'm saying nothing on here that I wouldn't say to them though being rather more cerebral for the most part they would be happy to discuss it with me. Enough of this 'Disgusted of llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch'
Telling comment, "neccessary at a good price". Like buying widgets....
TBH, you'd think that as a qualified medic she'd know better.
Medic != Any idea about procurement
Bit like saying sailors know how to go about doing deals for aircraft carriers.
Many of the GP's with whom I used to come in contact back in the day were extremely well informed (or thought they were) about procurement. And she ought to have had a better idea about the need for getting on with things.
Private Eye has just arrived with something about 'Sorry about the vial comment"!
Not good. Forgive my ignorance but do you know if synagogues are still holding services?
This is grim in the circumstances, but also oddly expressed. Time to become a Christian man...
'Even after adjusting for socio-economic factors, data from Public Health England shows that Jewish men are twice as likely to die from Covid-19 than Christian men in the UK.'
I don't know the answer to that but many families will have twelve children or more and social distancing will be non existent. Many of course have the quaint belief that him upstairs will look after them which is another problem.
Youi really are unpleasant.
What gives you the right to trash a religions views, other than arrogance and intolerance of other peoples views
If they want go believe in their God who are you to make snide remarks about something they hold dear
I am not Jewish and have no reason to defend them but it tires me when I see such prejudice
But religious beliefs, particularly those espoused and promoted by self-promoting religious leaders, can cause huge damage in an epidemic, let alone a pandemic.
In West Africa, some shameless church leaders, who relied on congregations' Sunday donations for their lavish lifestyle, actively dismissed medical treatment for and non-medical measures against Ebola, demanded their congregations came to church AND practiced laying on of hands as THE cure. Some demanded open casket wakes and funerals.
Whatever one's respect for a religion, you cannot accept that behaviour, nor respect religious leaders who cannot find a way to square their genuine religious beliefs with desperately needed social hygiene.
Gotta say, coups ain't what they used to be - I see in Myanmar the Generals have charged Aung Sung with breaching export rules and possession of unlawful communication devices.
I doubt that one comment will do Starmer much harm, but we do know his current image is being carefully crafted, unlike Jezza willing to say things that previously he would never as his eye is on the prize of winning, not sticking to appearing idealogically pure.
Err he is up against Boris? Anyone who votes for Boris ahead of Starmer simply because Starmer's image is carefully crafted is a bit weird imo.
That wasn't what I was saying. Starmer is being smart, making sure he doesn't repeat Jezza mistakes of allowing himself to be pinned as something many of the British public hate. Instead trying to appear bland.
And we don't know for certain he will be againat Boris. Dishy Rishi is waiting in the wings.
With respect, I don't think it will be. The people who this really aggravates will already be Tory voters of long standing. I grew up and have lived most of my life in the red wall. There are plenty of, even elderly Brexit voters who are, at best, ambivalent about the monarchy. I've never seen the Queen's Speech, I know many, many people who've never watched it. When there was the big anniversary the other year for the Queen with street parties and the like, well there weren't any round here, it passed with a blip.
The monarchy matters to Tories, and perhaps to some of the more elderly working class types, the Mail readers. My Grandma, Gawd Bless Her, was a great collector of royal memorabilia, when we emptied her house recently there were tons of those commemorative mugs and plates for weddings and births and the like going back years. But she was a lifelong working class Tory. But for most of us they are irrelevant, remote, southern and, perhaps worst of all, posh.
I could be wrong, maybe it'll be another effective front in the culture war.
I grew up in a typical Northern Labour seat (but still very Labour). What people don't like is those who are two-faced. That's the issue with these remarks for Starmer. He looks like he is trying to hoodwink voters
You don't have to look that hard to find Starmer statements / actions at odds with his current inage. I mean he played up how much of a leftie he was during the leadership race, then immediately switched.
Starmer is a "nice guy" but views politics as a real-time tactical challenge of presentation and triangulation.
He risks losing everyone with that approach.
That may well be so. But I am not sure that a Tory party led by Boris Johnson, who would win a Nobel Prize for Triangulation and Saying Whatever The Audience Wants to Hear No Matter How Inconsistent With What He Has Said Before is best placed to make that criticism.
I thought the regulations prevented foreign holidays. You could not even leave a Tier 4 area.
Don't care about the Captain - can quite understand why a free holiday at age 100 would appeal. But as a more general point, were foreign holidays permitted?
When he went, yes.
Extraordinary. So my husband could not travel up here - where he would have been safer than in London - and as a result caught the virus. But others could travel half-way round the globe.
These sort of half-arsed rules are one reason why the epidemic is so much worse than it could have been.
If he flew on 9 December then yes your husband could have travelled to you then surely? We weren't in lockdown then.
But yes it will be a bigger issue for him. Because he already has a patriotism issue and frankly Liz Truss does not.
When you lose the benefit of the doubt it becomes harder to avoid tough questions.
Anyone with an unaddled brain would think a Royal Family is a bonkers idea!! If we didn't have one we'd be laughing ourselves stupid at the the likes of Saudi Arabia for even thinking of the idea.
You must spend a lot of time laughing yourself stupid at Sweden, Denmark, Norway, the Netherlands, Spain, and Belgium then. Losers
Political structure doesn't start with a blank sheet, you start from where you are. Among the people who didn't believe that were Julius Caesar, Napoleon, Hitler, Mao, Stalin and in a more trivial way Mr Trump. Once you have lost a sense of the accumulated tradition you can't recover it. The monarchy is a key player in this identity and structure for us. It is particular and local, its details are unique.
I don't think so. The key thing is he says "used to" - he just needs to say clearly how much respect he has for Her Maj and that it serves the country well etc. etc.
Of course it's going to be a fucking problem. This is the new patriotism. If you don't gush about how the Queen has served the nation for 60 years by being driven to the races in a Bentley and selflessly accepting 40,000 bunches of flowers you are fucked.
He will just have to hope the Queen rolls a two before the next GE as republicanism will be very much in vogue once we have King Gobshite and his nervous wreck heir.
No it won't, 47% now have a favourable view of Prince Charles and only 23% have a negative opinion.
I don't think so. The key thing is he says "used to" - he just needs to say clearly how much respect he has for Her Maj and that it serves the country well etc. etc.
Nah, you can't row back from that. It's only sixteen years ago. He was a senior QC and comfortably into his forties by then - he wasn't a trendy student. And it's clear from his smile and body language he believes it.
Of course, he will try - but he won't be believed.
It's not a mistake Blair (or even Brown) would have ever made.
You're rather over-egging this. It was 2005 - long before Starmer was even an MP. The current PM has a long list of 'big problems' in the past, some of them quite serious, that the electorate clearly forgave him for in 2019.
As it happens, I suspect a more serious debate about the future of the monarchy will come to pass once the current Queen dies (after a year or so of suitable grieving, of course).
Good point, King Charles is unlikely to be as popular or respected as the Queen has become.
These people are completely stupid. I understand that schools should be a priority but we're contending with the SA variant right now and opening schools will see it spread far and wide and potentially undermine our whole vaccine programme.
It's time for a safety first approach with everything including reopening schools and hospitality. We've still got 34k people in hospital with this thing.
I'd be embarrassed to read back my cap-doffing quotes now, but guess what?
People's views change over time.
Yup, don't think this makes any difference really.
It doesn't, as long as people think that Starmer is genuine and says what he believes in. If they don't then it's a problem.
That's right. It's not so much Keir Starmer himself, it's the Labour Party as a whole which has the problem. I can see why they want to try to change the perception that they are anti-British, but all this appearing in front of Union Jacks etc just looks fake. It's too transparently a response to focus group findings.
I feel like the Goldman Sachs Elf's moment has passed. He is obviously being set up to own the imminent economic carnage and Johnson is going nowhere except into the Ladies to inhale deeply after Allegra Stratton's just "been".
Telling comment, "neccessary at a good price". Like buying widgets....
TBH, you'd think that as a qualified medic she'd know better.
Medic != Any idea about procurement
Bit like saying sailors know how to go about doing deals for aircraft carriers.
Many of the GP's with whom I used to come in contact back in the day were extremely well informed (or thought they were) about procurement. And she ought to have had a better idea about the need for getting on with things.
Private Eye has just arrived with something about 'Sorry about the vial comment"!
I am sure lots of car mechanics think they know all about F1 cars and can talk in some detail about the tech used.....quite a different thing to actually do it.
Doing deals with massive multinational companies for drugs still currently under development is a long way removed from treating patients. Its a totally different world.
As we see, even the EU managed to sign contracts they didn't fully understand the direct and indirect implacations.
I don't think so. The key thing is he says "used to" - he just needs to say clearly how much respect he has for Her Maj and that it serves the country well etc. etc.
Of course it's going to be a fucking problem. This is the new patriotism. If you don't gush about how the Queen has served the nation for 60 years by being driven to the races in a Bentley and selflessly accepting 40,000 bunches of flowers you are fucked.
He will just have to hope the Queen rolls a two before the next GE as republicanism will be very much in vogue once we have King Gobshite and his nervous wreck heir.
Perhaps it can be fought off with more flags. Which is another reason not to go ape on flags now. You have to leave yourself somewhere to go. Some gears unused.
I think most commentators and on here are underestimating the economic tsunami coming our way. Any government would be effected by it , and how it handles the debt once the pandemic is eventually under control.
It's pretty obvious how they are going to handle it; keep borrowing and let inflation rip.
You don't have to look that hard to find Starmer statements / actions at odds with his current inage. I mean he played up how much of a leftie he was during the leadership race, then immediately switched.
Starmer is a "nice guy" but views politics as a real-time tactical challenge of presentation and triangulation.
He risks losing everyone with that approach.
You cannot make yourself into something you are not just because you think it will be popular
You have to believe in it in the first place
(whispers) Are you going to tell the PM, or shall I?
On being patriotic I do not think I need to tell Boris anything
Given the bog he's making of the Union, you might need to!
Not good. Forgive my ignorance but do you know if synagogues are still holding services?
This is grim in the circumstances, but also oddly expressed. Time to become a Christian man...
'Even after adjusting for socio-economic factors, data from Public Health England shows that Jewish men are twice as likely to die from Covid-19 than Christian men in the UK.'
Some synagogues are still, unbelievably, holding regular services. Mine stayed open for a bit during lockdown but then shut after Sadiq Khan led a push to close all places of worship (one of the few things he's ever done I can unconditionally support).
Worth noting that the report Roger links to relates to (as far as I can tell) the ultra-orthodox community specifically, which is a fairly small and self-contained part of the wider community. Although it's pretty clear that the findings are applicable to both, albeit to differing extents.
Some church 'leaders' (whatever that means) are taking the Scottish government to court for not allowing any church services. One of them was interviewed on the radio on Sunday and the air of messianic entitlement was gobsmacking:
In this time of crisis coming together and witnessing the good news of Jesus is the only way we can bring redemption to the world (I paraphrase but only in detail not intent).
The thing is, this attitude worked pretty well for thousands of years - religion was a good way of helping people come to terms with random acts of chaos inflicted upon them by a seemingly uncaring universe. Communal prayers and support networks did a lot of good during times when we (as a species) couldn't do much else.
The problem is that, now that we have much more effective means of addressing the problem head on (rather than simply coping with the effects), it's difficult to switch gears and suddenly ditch all the previously comforting defence mechanisms that have been put up.
Which is not an excuse. But it does serve to explain the mindset.
But religion is also about the collective and looking after others. Doing something which explicitly harms others is quite contrary to those principles.
"He who saves a life saves the world entire." Is that not a Jewish saying/principle?
I doubt that one comment will do Starmer much harm, but we do know his current image is being carefully crafted, unlike Jezza willing to say things that previously he would never as his eye is on the prize of winning, not sticking to appearing idealogically pure.
Err he is up against Boris? Anyone who votes for Boris ahead of Starmer simply because Starmer's image is carefully crafted is a bit weird imo.
Another 40% of 'deplorables' - you could not make this up.
With respect, I don't think it will be. The people who this really aggravates will already be Tory voters of long standing. I grew up and have lived most of my life in the red wall. There are plenty of, even elderly Brexit voters who are, at best, ambivalent about the monarchy. I've never seen the Queen's Speech, I know many, many people who've never watched it. When there was the big anniversary the other year for the Queen with street parties and the like, well there weren't any round here, it passed with a blip.
The monarchy matters to Tories, and perhaps to some of the more elderly working class types, the Mail readers. My Grandma, Gawd Bless Her, was a great collector of royal memorabilia, when we emptied her house recently there were tons of those commemorative mugs and plates for weddings and births and the like going back years. But she was a lifelong working class Tory. But for most of us they are irrelevant, remote, southern and, perhaps worst of all, posh.
I could be wrong, maybe it'll be another effective front in the culture war.
I grew up in a typical Northern Labour seat (but still very Labour). What people don't like is those who are two-faced. That's the issue with these remarks for Starmer. He looks like he is trying to hoodwink voters
Yeah, maybe. But it's predicated on the view that to be patriotic means that you have to support the monarchy. HYUFD might think that, but I don't think that's the case for swathes of the country.
Not good. Forgive my ignorance but do you know if synagogues are still holding services?
This is grim in the circumstances, but also oddly expressed. Time to become a Christian man...
'Even after adjusting for socio-economic factors, data from Public Health England shows that Jewish men are twice as likely to die from Covid-19 than Christian men in the UK.'
I don't know the answer to that but many families will have twelve children or more and social distancing will be non existent. Many of course have the quaint belief that him upstairs will look after them which is another problem.
Youi really are unpleasant.
What gives you the right to trash a religions views, other than arrogance and intolerance of other peoples views
If they want go believe in their God who are you to make snide remarks about something they hold dear
I am not Jewish and have no reason to defend them but it tires me when I see such prejudice
But religious beliefs, particularly those espoused and promoted by self-promoting religious leaders, can cause huge damage in an epidemic, let alone a pandemic.
In West Africa, some shameless church leaders, who relied on congregations' Sunday donations for their lavish lifestyle, actively dismissed medical treatment for and non-medical measures against Ebola, demanded their congregations came to church AND practiced laying on of hands as THE cure. Some demanded open casket wakes and funerals.
Whatever one's respect for a religion, you cannot accept that behaviour, nor respect religious leaders who cannot find a way to square their genuine religious beliefs with desperately needed social hygiene.
To me, the interesting bit is which religions it's ok to criticise.
All religions that I have encountered have their Fundi Fun section. Have you come across Buddhist extremism, for example?
The important thing is to treat the varying types of Fundi in the same way - judge them by their actions, and when they break the law.. well, I'm not even sorry. Give them exactly what they deserve.
Not good. Forgive my ignorance but do you know if synagogues are still holding services?
This is grim in the circumstances, but also oddly expressed. Time to become a Christian man...
'Even after adjusting for socio-economic factors, data from Public Health England shows that Jewish men are twice as likely to die from Covid-19 than Christian men in the UK.'
Some synagogues are still, unbelievably, holding regular services. Mine stayed open for a bit during lockdown but then shut after Sadiq Khan led a push to close all places of worship (one of the few things he's ever done I can unconditionally support).
Worth noting that the report Roger links to relates to (as far as I can tell) the ultra-orthodox community specifically, which is a fairly small and self-contained part of the wider community. Although it's pretty clear that the findings are applicable to both, albeit to differing extents.
Some church 'leaders' (whatever that means) are taking the Scottish government to court for not allowing any church services. One of them was interviewed on the radio on Sunday and the air of messianic entitlement was gobsmacking:
In this time of crisis coming together and witnessing the good news of Jesus is the only way we can bring redemption to the world (I paraphrase but only in detail not intent).
It is also absurd because streaming of services is possible. It is what my church did during the first lockdown. Not ideal, obviously. But nothing is at the moment. When so many are making sacrifices - often at great cost to themselves - I find myself increasingly annoyed with those demanding special privileges.
Depends on your religion. Within (Orthodox) Judaism, streaming the service is pointless because prayer is intended to be communal, which requires a physical presence.
Prayer is communal in Catholicism too. Holy Communion is pretty key but has been impossible.
Does doing something which risk killing / harming people really override everything else?
I'd be embarrassed to read back my cap-doffing quotes now, but guess what?
People's views change over time.
Yup, don't think this makes any difference really.
It doesn't, as long as people think that Starmer is genuine and says what he believes in. If they don't then it's a problem.
That's right. It's not so much Keir Starmer himself, it's the Labour Party as a whole which has the problem. I can see why they want to try to change the perception that they are anti-British, but all this appearing in front of Union Jacks etc just looks fake. It's too transparently a response to focus group findings.
Needs more flags then. Have the Union Flag and the flags of all four nations. No one can claim to be underrepresented then. More flags = more votes.
Not good. Forgive my ignorance but do you know if synagogues are still holding services?
This is grim in the circumstances, but also oddly expressed. Time to become a Christian man...
'Even after adjusting for socio-economic factors, data from Public Health England shows that Jewish men are twice as likely to die from Covid-19 than Christian men in the UK.'
Some synagogues are still, unbelievably, holding regular services. Mine stayed open for a bit during lockdown but then shut after Sadiq Khan led a push to close all places of worship (one of the few things he's ever done I can unconditionally support).
Worth noting that the report Roger links to relates to (as far as I can tell) the ultra-orthodox community specifically, which is a fairly small and self-contained part of the wider community. Although it's pretty clear that the findings are applicable to both, albeit to differing extents.
Some church 'leaders' (whatever that means) are taking the Scottish government to court for not allowing any church services. One of them was interviewed on the radio on Sunday and the air of messianic entitlement was gobsmacking:
In this time of crisis coming together and witnessing the good news of Jesus is the only way we can bring redemption to the world (I paraphrase but only in detail not intent).
The thing is, this attitude worked pretty well for thousands of years - religion was a good way of helping people come to terms with random acts of chaos inflicted upon them by a seemingly uncaring universe. Communal prayers and support networks did a lot of good during times when we (as a species) couldn't do much else.
The problem is that, now that we have much more effective means of addressing the problem head on (rather than simply coping with the effects), it's difficult to switch gears and suddenly ditch all the previously comforting defence mechanisms that have been put up.
Which is not an excuse. But it does serve to explain the mindset.
It is more subtle than that.
These are mainly independent churches which have a special concern about Govt control because they have a history of being persecuted by the established church and government. "Nonconformists".
This country has not had freedom of religion for *that* long. Hence Pulgrim Fathers etc and a lot more up to 1700 and after.
eg Non-conformists and Roman Catholics did not get full access to Oxford Uni until 1871. Before that you had to declare that you were an Anglican in various ways.
Very much around the time that Charles Bradlaugh was sent to prison for trying to take his seat as an MP without swearing a religious oath.
They don't forget, and they don't back down on principles. In many places they die for them.
I think that they are quite open to the Medical Guidance, but oppose the control.
I think most commentators and on here are underestimating the economic tsunami coming our way. Any government would be effected by it , and how it handles the debt once the pandemic is eventually under control.
It's pretty obvious how they are going to handle it; keep borrowing and let inflation rip.
What are the other options?
70's here we come
Been there done that. Apart from the Summer of 1976 the rest of it we can skip (except for the lols of the SNP ushering in Mrs Thatcher).
I don't think so. The key thing is he says "used to" - he just needs to say clearly how much respect he has for Her Maj and that it serves the country well etc. etc.
Of course it's going to be a fucking problem. This is the new patriotism. If you don't gush about how the Queen has served the nation for 60 years by being driven to the races in a Bentley and selflessly accepting 40,000 bunches of flowers you are fucked.
He will just have to hope the Queen rolls a two before the next GE as republicanism will be very much in vogue once we have King Gobshite and his nervous wreck heir.
Perhaps it can be fought off with more flags. Which is another reason not to go ape on flags now. You have to leave yourself somewhere to go. Some gears unused.
Thankfully SKS seems to have only a single flag habit at the moment. Keep a beady eye open for any increase, and casually placed models of aircraft carriers.
Not good. Forgive my ignorance but do you know if synagogues are still holding services?
This is grim in the circumstances, but also oddly expressed. Time to become a Christian man...
'Even after adjusting for socio-economic factors, data from Public Health England shows that Jewish men are twice as likely to die from Covid-19 than Christian men in the UK.'
I don't know the answer to that but many families will have twelve children or more and social distancing will be non existent. Many of course have the quaint belief that him upstairs will look after them which is another problem.
Youi really are unpleasant.
What gives you the right to trash a religions views, other than arrogance and intolerance of other peoples views
If they want go believe in their God who are you to make snide remarks about something they hold dear
I am not Jewish and have no reason to defend them but it tires me when I see such prejudice
It was his snide comment about their believe in God which was arrogant and intolerant
'Many of course have the quaint belief that him upstairs will look after them which is another problem'
Is this not true, important and valid though? If you believe in a lovely afterlife are people then on average less scared of dying? If you believe in an omnipotent God, would you rather follow his rules or the doctors and scientists rules?
They seem like valid explanations of why some religious communities have been harder hit by covid. Perhaps they will get to make up for it in the afterlife, who knows?
Telling comment, "neccessary at a good price". Like buying widgets....
TBH, you'd think that as a qualified medic she'd know better.
Medic != Any idea about procurement
Bit like saying sailors know how to go about doing deals for aircraft carriers.
Many of the GP's with whom I used to come in contact back in the day were extremely well informed (or thought they were) about procurement. And she ought to have had a better idea about the need for getting on with things.
Private Eye has just arrived with something about 'Sorry about the vial comment"!
I am sure lots of car mechanics think they know all about F1 cars and can talk in some detail about the tech used.....quite a different thing to actually do it.
Doing deals with massive multinational companies for drugs still currently under development is a long way removed from treating patients. Its a totally different world.
As we see, even the EU managed to sign contracts they didn't fully understand the direct and indirect implacations.
Indeed, but that isn't, or rather wasn't the point, was it? And we are hardly in a position to point the finger at people signing contracts they don't understand.
But yes it will be a bigger issue for him. Because he already has a patriotism issue and frankly Liz Truss does not.
When you lose the benefit of the doubt it becomes harder to avoid tough questions.
Anyone with an unaddled brain would think a Royal Family is a bonkers idea!! If we didn't have one we'd be laughing ourselves stupid at the the likes of Saudi Arabia for even thinking of the idea.
You must spend a lot of time laughing yourself stupid at Sweden, Denmark, Norway, the Netherlands, Spain, and Belgium then. Losers
Political structure doesn't start with a blank sheet, you start from where you are. Among the people who didn't believe that were Julius Caesar, Napoleon, Hitler, Mao, Stalin and in a more trivial way Mr Trump. Once you have lost a sense of the accumulated tradition you can't recover it. The monarchy is a key player in this identity and structure for us. It is particular and local, its details are unique.
Napoleon was the ultimate centrist. Putting a gothic monarchical facade on top of a classical republican superstructure. If he had accepted the 1813 Allied offer in the Frankfurt Proposals of borders from the Rhine to the Pyrenees with him on the throne then the Bonapartes would still be there. But he didn't - and the rest is history.
You don't have to look that hard to find Starmer statements / actions at odds with his current inage. I mean he played up how much of a leftie he was during the leadership race, then immediately switched.
Starmer is a "nice guy" but views politics as a real-time tactical challenge of presentation and triangulation.
He risks losing everyone with that approach.
You cannot make yourself into something you are not just because you think it will be popular
You have to believe in it in the first place
(whispers) Are you going to tell the PM, or shall I?
On being patriotic I do not think I need to tell Boris anything
Absolutely. Putting a border down the Irish Sea so that you need to fill in customs and sanitary forms to ship products from one part of the UK to another is as patriotic as you can get.
I doubt that one comment will do Starmer much harm, but we do know his current image is being carefully crafted, unlike Jezza willing to say things that previously he would never as his eye is on the prize of winning, not sticking to appearing idealogically pure.
Err he is up against Boris? Anyone who votes for Boris ahead of Starmer simply because Starmer's image is carefully crafted is a bit weird imo.
Another 40% of 'deplorables' - you could not make this up.
40% of people vote for Boris simply because Starmers image is carefully crafted? Really. Please read what I post and dont extrapolate random non sequiturs from it.
Non weird reasons for voting for Boris:
Brexit Personality Always vote Tory Fear of lingering Corbyn
I think most commentators and on here are underestimating the economic tsunami coming our way. Any government would be effected by it , and how it handles the debt once the pandemic is eventually under control.
It's pretty obvious how they are going to handle it; keep borrowing and let inflation rip.
Telling comment, "neccessary at a good price". Like buying widgets....
TBH, you'd think that as a qualified medic she'd know better.
Medic != Any idea about procurement
Bit like saying sailors know how to go about doing deals for aircraft carriers.
Many of the GP's with whom I used to come in contact back in the day were extremely well informed (or thought they were) about procurement. And she ought to have had a better idea about the need for getting on with things.
Private Eye has just arrived with something about 'Sorry about the vial comment"!
I am sure lots of car mechanics think they know all about F1 cars and can talk in some detail about the tech used.....quite a different thing to actually do it.
Doing deals with massive multinational companies for drugs still currently under development is a long way removed from treating patients. Its a totally different world.
As we see, even the EU managed to sign contracts they didn't fully understand the direct and indirect implacations.
Indeed, but that isn't, or rather wasn't the point, was it? And we are hardly in a position to point the finger at people signing contracts they don't understand.
It was exactly the point..it was stated VDL is a medic so she should know better when it comes to doing deals for vaccines. I just pointing out her (dodgy) academic background doesn't mean that at all.
The notion of haggling down the price of a drug might be sensible in normal times, when it comes to the current situation, it has been shown much more important issues, such as working with the companies on funding, expanding manufacturing and legal liability issues.
Not good. Forgive my ignorance but do you know if synagogues are still holding services?
This is grim in the circumstances, but also oddly expressed. Time to become a Christian man...
'Even after adjusting for socio-economic factors, data from Public Health England shows that Jewish men are twice as likely to die from Covid-19 than Christian men in the UK.'
Some synagogues are still, unbelievably, holding regular services. Mine stayed open for a bit during lockdown but then shut after Sadiq Khan led a push to close all places of worship (one of the few things he's ever done I can unconditionally support).
Worth noting that the report Roger links to relates to (as far as I can tell) the ultra-orthodox community specifically, which is a fairly small and self-contained part of the wider community. Although it's pretty clear that the findings are applicable to both, albeit to differing extents.
Some church 'leaders' (whatever that means) are taking the Scottish government to court for not allowing any church services. One of them was interviewed on the radio on Sunday and the air of messianic entitlement was gobsmacking:
In this time of crisis coming together and witnessing the good news of Jesus is the only way we can bring redemption to the world (I paraphrase but only in detail not intent).
It is also absurd because streaming of services is possible. It is what my church did during the first lockdown. Not ideal, obviously. But nothing is at the moment. When so many are making sacrifices - often at great cost to themselves - I find myself increasingly annoyed with those demanding special privileges.
Depends on your religion. Within (Orthodox) Judaism, streaming the service is pointless because prayer is intended to be communal, which requires a physical presence.
Prayer is communal in Catholicism too. Holy Communion is pretty key but has been impossible.
Does doing something which risk killing / harming people really override everything else?
Unfortunately, for some it does. Often justified (in Christianity, at least) by the same logic as those who play with snakes because God will protect them.
I don't think so. The key thing is he says "used to" - he just needs to say clearly how much respect he has for Her Maj and that it serves the country well etc. etc.
Of course it's going to be a fucking problem. This is the new patriotism. If you don't gush about how the Queen has served the nation for 60 years by being driven to the races in a Bentley and selflessly accepting 40,000 bunches of flowers you are fucked.
He will just have to hope the Queen rolls a two before the next GE as republicanism will be very much in vogue once we have King Gobshite and his nervous wreck heir.
No it won't, 47% now have a favourable view of Prince Charles and only 23% have a negative opinion.
I don't think so. The key thing is he says "used to" - he just needs to say clearly how much respect he has for Her Maj and that it serves the country well etc. etc.
Of course it's going to be a fucking problem. This is the new patriotism. If you don't gush about how the Queen has served the nation for 60 years by being driven to the races in a Bentley and selflessly accepting 40,000 bunches of flowers you are fucked.
He will just have to hope the Queen rolls a two before the next GE as republicanism will be very much in vogue once we have King Gobshite and his nervous wreck heir.
Perhaps it can be fought off with more flags. Which is another reason not to go ape on flags now. You have to leave yourself somewhere to go. Some gears unused.
Thankfully SKS seems to have only a single flag habit at the moment. Keep a beady eye open for any increase, and casually placed models of aircraft carriers.
Not just that, but suggestions of building more (or at least assembling them) at Rosyth.
Comments
It will be interesting to see where this lands.
As to why they think they are exempt - it is policy to treat such community beliefs as suitable for creating exceptions. That is ingrained in the structure of government - not just a policy of the politicians. It is a policy of the system itself.
No further comment needed
You and BoZo both...
He comes across as a bit of a smug git, but that's about it.
He was accused of been a spy for the soviet Union.
Also as anti American for not sending in troops to Vietnam to support the USA
Recent enough to cause problems, may not be as significant as Mr. Royale suspects. But we shall see. Depends how he reacts.
He risks losing everyone with that approach.
BBC News - 'Their goal is to destroy everyone': Uighur camp detainees allege systematic rape
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-55794071
Brady on the radio this morning was getting his freak on.
He won't be alone.
You have to believe in it in the first place
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/30/world/middleeast/coronavirus-israel-cases-orthodox.html
Especially after the current Queen.
Even you or maybe not,
FFS.
I was a monarchist in 2005.
I'd be embarrassed to read back my cap-doffing quotes now, but guess what?
People's views change over time.
It was his snide comment about their believe in God which was arrogant and intolerant
'Many of course have the quaint belief that him upstairs will look after them which is another problem'
As much as the girls want to go back to school (and I'd be happy for it to happen), the proposal of giving 2 weeks notice for future changes to schools is a good one.
I was worried schools wouldn't be going back until after the Easter break, which pushes us into April before they go back. Saying they'll go on the 8th March instead - I doubt many people will quibble over a fortnight.
He will just have to hope the Queen rolls a two before the next GE as republicanism will be very much in vogue once we have King Gobshite and his nervous wreck heir.
Don't be ridiculous.
The problem is that, now that we have much more effective means of addressing the problem head on (rather than simply coping with the effects), it's difficult to switch gears and suddenly ditch all the previously comforting defence mechanisms that have been put up.
Which is not an excuse. But it does serve to explain the mindset.
Once you can fake that, you have it made.
First half is to behave like someone buying unusual cabbages at an auction.
Second half is that others started cabbage farms.
On the tape I think it is June 17, talking about a get-together 10 days later.
When did others start working on the problem?
AZ vaccine was into trials by the end of March, and ginger groups were talking in Jan/Feb, and they had Govt money in March.
IMO I think we will probably find in the "real world", with some tweaks to the dosing strategies and vaccine themselves, that they will probably all end up as much of a muchness.
mRNA technology is the future though, because of how simple it is to retool for tweaks. If they can solve the stability issue (which Imperial were working on), it has so many potential uses.
The monarchy matters to Tories, and perhaps to some of the more elderly working class types, the Mail readers. My Grandma, Gawd Bless Her, was a great collector of royal memorabilia, when we emptied her house recently there were tons of those commemorative mugs and plates for weddings and births and the like going back years. But she was a lifelong working class Tory. But for most of us they are irrelevant, remote, southern and, perhaps worst of all, posh.
I could be wrong, maybe it'll be another effective front in the culture war.
These sort of half-arsed rules are one reason why the epidemic is so much worse than it could have been.
As it happens, I suspect a more serious debate about the future of the monarchy will come to pass once the current Queen dies (after a year or so of suitable grieving, of course).
And she ought to have had a better idea about the need for getting on with things.
Private Eye has just arrived with something about 'Sorry about the vial comment"!
In West Africa, some shameless church leaders, who relied on congregations' Sunday donations for their lavish lifestyle, actively dismissed medical treatment for and non-medical measures against Ebola, demanded their congregations came to church AND practiced laying on of hands as THE cure. Some demanded open casket wakes and funerals.
Whatever one's respect for a religion, you cannot accept that behaviour, nor respect religious leaders who cannot find a way to square their genuine religious beliefs with desperately needed social hygiene.
And we don't know for certain he will be againat Boris. Dishy Rishi is waiting in the wings.
https://twitter.com/George_Osborne/status/1356933564001042436?s=20
https://twitter.com/benatipsosmori/status/1356933140028289025?s=20
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/explore/public_figure/Prince_Charles
It's time for a safety first approach with everything including reopening schools and hospitality. We've still got 34k people in hospital with this thing.
Doing deals with massive multinational companies for drugs still currently under development is a long way removed from treating patients. Its a totally different world.
As we see, even the EU managed to sign contracts they didn't fully understand the direct and indirect implacations.
"He who saves a life saves the world entire." Is that not a Jewish saying/principle?
All religions that I have encountered have their Fundi Fun section. Have you come across Buddhist extremism, for example?
The important thing is to treat the varying types of Fundi in the same way - judge them by their actions, and when they break the law.. well, I'm not even sorry. Give them exactly what they deserve.
Does doing something which risk killing / harming people really override everything else?
These are mainly independent churches which have a special concern about Govt control because they have a history of being persecuted by the established church and government. "Nonconformists".
This country has not had freedom of religion for *that* long. Hence Pulgrim Fathers etc and a lot more up to 1700 and after.
eg Non-conformists and Roman Catholics did not get full access to Oxford Uni until 1871. Before that you had to declare that you were an Anglican in various ways.
Very much around the time that Charles Bradlaugh was sent to prison for trying to take his seat as an MP without swearing a religious oath.
They don't forget, and they don't back down on principles. In many places they die for them.
I think that they are quite open to the Medical Guidance, but oppose the control.
They seem like valid explanations of why some religious communities have been harder hit by covid. Perhaps they will get to make up for it in the afterlife, who knows?
Non weird reasons for voting for Boris:
Brexit
Personality
Always vote Tory
Fear of lingering Corbyn
Weird reason for voting for Boris:
Dislike of carefully crafted images
The notion of haggling down the price of a drug might be sensible in normal times, when it comes to the current situation, it has been shown much more important issues, such as working with the companies on funding, expanding manufacturing and legal liability issues.
Who could have seen that one coming?