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CNN reporting that McConnell is privately saying he wants Trump gone – politicalbetting.com

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  • On a cursory read, as a non-expert, I have to say it looks pretty solid, albeit preliminary:

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1352685565477580802

    I'd need to read the studies themselves (the doc is simply a summary), most of which are unpublished, but yes that evidence seems consistent. It's not surprising: a pattern of increased viral load, increased transmission, and a spike mutation are all consistent with a virus that enters cells more easily to replicate, so a little greater chance of either overwhelming the immune system or triggering immune over-reaction. Not a cause for panic, either.

    --AS
    Its of course not good news but not sure it should make any difference in that what if the new strain was 30% less fatal rather than more ? Would we change policy on lockdown then ? I doubt it?
    I agree with you.

    Policy is mainly being driven by hospitalizations, not deaths. Though it sounds callous to say it, society can function if there are a lot of deaths, but hospital collapse could cause serious disorder.

    --AS
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,620
    Glad to avoid some of the usual hysteria on the previous thread.

    Remember: the vaccine is the only game in town. Marginal differences over variants will happen and are all part of the nightmare we are in.

    Don’t dwell too much on that. JFGID.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    edited January 2021

    Do we still have Covid-deniers loitering this webpage?

    The reason I ask is, when I was suffering with 'long Covid' between March and April (and May, June, July etc.) and updating politcalbetting about my long Covid (before the term had even been coined and before I gave up on the site) I was castigated by a certain member here, basically implying that I was telling one great big porkie. As if lying about your life falling apart is the sort of thing you just do.. Unfortunately I wasn't and I was seriously ill for a long time, despite being young and having no 'underlying health conditions'.

    So anyway, Covid is the real deal. It is a horrific virus, in the wrong person/immunological response. You wouldn't wish on your worst enemy. Even on the deniers.

    On the positive side, there were many posters on this site that do/did restore my faith in humanity. God bless you guys.

    Glad to see you posting again, and sorry that you went through that.

    Some say that the deniers bring an interesting perspective. I think that they bring malicious lies. I'm increasingly tempted to call them such.

    --AS
    have to say the term is itself stupid if you mean people (like me) who think we have gone OTT with restrictions but dont deny covid is a serious illness. Its as if you want to bracket any dissenters to the restrictions in the same category as Holocaust deniers or climate change deniers . There are very few covid deniers in the literal sense and its stupid to use them as straw men to win a different argument
    Last week at Derby Royal Infirmary nurses going in for a shift at Covid ICU were barracked by a group of covid deniers shouting that the virus is a hoax.



  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,972
    edited January 2021

    Noticeable change in tone from the Boris....no sunny uplands...on message tonight with must lockdown, must lockdown for a lot longer...

    He finally took my advice.

    Now if he only started listening to my fashion advice.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,620

    Thanks for tips on previous thread, all.

    I don't think I could cut out all alcohol right now. Life is too boring and the days are too short. Maybe I could shift to beer to wine, though.

    I like the low carbs in the evening. I need to think more about exercise.

    Calorie counting and weighing doesn't work for me. I obsess about food and weight and get obsessive/disllusioned too easily. And I'd rather die than just eat plants - I need a balanced diet where I can eat meat too. .

    I should probably cut out takeaways and processed food and get on the bike for at least an hour a day. And eat more eggs with meals for the long burn?

    Try ducking beer and exploring wines instead, and just ship the processed food completely - full of refined sugar and shit.

    Don’t worry about butter - fat doesn’t make you fat, sugar makes you fat.

    Red meat, great fish - all good.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774

    Selebian said:

    DavidL said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    I think the scientists are somewhat more willing to highlight the downsides and fears from the evidence than the upsides at this stage.

    New variant 10-50% more fatal? Most of the new variant patients have been treated in England's most crowded hospitals.

    Not sure R is getting below 1. It seems to be consistent everywhere, and the figures are by now reflecting, not only the post-Christmas lull, but 30% or so of the primary pupils staying back in in the New Year (albeit infection rates in this cohort are up from around 1.8 -> 2.1% in the ONS study and this subset could exponent.

    Could be locked down for a long time? Let's wait on the figures there. Especially with vaccination accelerating.

    The vaccine may not stop transmission? C'mon hasn't every vaccine in history disrupted transmission, else why are we now flu jabbing kids. And premature results from Israel? Let's wait.

    An abundance of caution going on here and medicine's first do no harm approach. We are hearing more of their fears than their hopes.

    AIU Boris tonight, and he's not always the clearest, if 1,000 60 year old's got the old virus 10 would die. If 1000 60 year old's get the new variant 13 would die. By my reckoning that is an increase in fatality of 0.3% or statistical noise as most of us would call it.
    30%

    Which is quite a big difference if true. But I suspect the uncertainty in this is quite large

    (0.3 percentage points, but 30% more lethal)
    So would have been better to get herd immuniity last year wouldn't it?
    If only it were that simple: the issue has always been that the fatality rate is 1% if hospitals have capacity and x% if they do not.

    And we really don't know how high x is.

    (Of course, the reality is that when you have situations like New York in March or Milan in Feb, then what happens is a de facto lockdown anyway.)
  • North West seems to be an area where covid levels are very stubborn over long periods of time.
  • GaussianGaussian Posts: 793
    edited January 2021

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    I think the scientists are somewhat more willing to highlight the downsides and fears from the evidence than the upsides at this stage.

    New variant 10-50% more fatal? Most of the new variant patients have been treated in England's most crowded hospitals.

    Not sure R is getting below 1. It seems to be consistent everywhere, and the figures are by now reflecting, not only the post-Christmas lull, but 30% or so of the primary pupils staying back in in the New Year (albeit infection rates in this cohort are up from around 1.8 -> 2.1% in the ONS study and this subset could exponent.

    Could be locked down for a long time? Let's wait on the figures there. Especially with vaccination accelerating.

    The vaccine may not stop transmission? C'mon hasn't every vaccine in history disrupted transmission, else why are we now flu jabbing kids. And premature results from Israel? Let's wait.

    An abundance of caution going on here and medicine's first do no harm approach. We are hearing more of their fears than their hopes.

    AIU Boris tonight, and he's not always the clearest, if 1,000 60 year old's got the old virus 10 would die. If 1000 60 year old's get the new variant 13 would die. By my reckoning that is an increase in fatality of 0.3% or statistical noise as most of us would call it.
    It's 30% more bodies in coffins, which isn't statistical noise.
    Erm, how do I put this, unless you are one of the bodies in a coffin statistical noise is exactly what it is. The real problem with the new variant, and it is a massive problem which would have been totally catastrophic if we did not have working vaccines, is that it seems to be multiple times more infectious than the old. That is what has our health service hanging by a thread, not the tiny increase in mortality.
    A thirty percent increase in mortality rate isn't statistical noise.

    Both the increased R rate and the increased death rate matter. Plus I'm assuming if there's more deaths per case there's probably also more hospitalisations per case.
    Agreed, but as with the vaccines, the effect on the R rate multiplies week after week, while the effects on hospitalisations and deaths per case are one-off factors.
  • Alistair said:

    Selebian said:

    DavidL said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    I think the scientists are somewhat more willing to highlight the downsides and fears from the evidence than the upsides at this stage.

    New variant 10-50% more fatal? Most of the new variant patients have been treated in England's most crowded hospitals.

    Not sure R is getting below 1. It seems to be consistent everywhere, and the figures are by now reflecting, not only the post-Christmas lull, but 30% or so of the primary pupils staying back in in the New Year (albeit infection rates in this cohort are up from around 1.8 -> 2.1% in the ONS study and this subset could exponent.

    Could be locked down for a long time? Let's wait on the figures there. Especially with vaccination accelerating.

    The vaccine may not stop transmission? C'mon hasn't every vaccine in history disrupted transmission, else why are we now flu jabbing kids. And premature results from Israel? Let's wait.

    An abundance of caution going on here and medicine's first do no harm approach. We are hearing more of their fears than their hopes.

    AIU Boris tonight, and he's not always the clearest, if 1,000 60 year old's got the old virus 10 would die. If 1000 60 year old's get the new variant 13 would die. By my reckoning that is an increase in fatality of 0.3% or statistical noise as most of us would call it.
    30%

    Which is quite a big difference if true. But I suspect the uncertainty in this is quite large

    (0.3 percentage points, but 30% more lethal)
    So would have been better to get herd immuniity last year wouldn't it?
    Walk me through the numbers on that.
    "to conquer death you only have to die"
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,037

    Is this for real? If so it's quite funny, although clearly 'Dave' forgot that the think to do when Johnny Foreigner doesn't understand you is to shout louder:

    https://twitter.com/Adam_SH69/status/1352606875368480772

    This is also real.
    I have more sympathy for June Mummery than most of the Brexit Party lot. At least she had skin in the game and was fighting for what she believed would help, even if she was misled.
    I'd have sympathy if she admitted she was wrong and apologised to those who pointed out that this was likely to happen. It's not as though the dire implications of Brexit for the fishing industry weren't obvious at the time of the referendum, and even more obvious when Boris became PM and deliberately made things even worse than they needed to be.
    Give it time and some high-profile recantations are inevitable.
    Thing is, William, whilst I think that's true to an extent (our relationship is currently below "par", long-term) where you get it wrong is you assume the experience will radical everyone into passionately supporting a full federal Europe.

    It won't.
  • dixiedean said:

    Interesting test of Trumpsky's post-POTUS clout is coming up in not-too-distant future, when US House Republicans vote - by secret ballot - whether or not to retain Lynn Cheney (R-Wyoming) as GOP Conference Chair following her vote to impeach Trumpsky in the wake of his failed Putsch.

    https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/21/liz-cheneys-problems-pile-up-461218

    "The most immediate threat to Cheney — a push by Trump loyalists to oust her as conference chair — has gained momentum inside the House GOP, although the process is complicated and could still sputter out. But at least 107 Republicans, or just over a majority, have communicated to the leaders of that effort that they would support removing Cheney from leadership on a secret ballot, according to multiple GOP sources involved in the effort. Others are threatening to boycott future conference meetings if she remains in power."

    "And at least two members have privately signaled interest in replacing Cheney as the No. 3 Republican, sources say: Reps. Elise Stefanik and Lee Zeldin, two New Yorkers who both sprang to popularity in the party after fiercely defending Trump during his first impeachment." . . .

    "But several other senior Republicans think Cheney ultimately hangs on to her post, arguing most Republicans will have little appetite for creating more chaos in the conference at a time when the party is desperate to unite."

    Some think he's the Messiah. Some a very naughty boy.
    Hard to unify under those circumstances.
    Good point. Methinks "unity" as used by GOP House leadership means, holding the gate against the crazies until we can either convert them, house-break them OR purge them outright.

    Congressional GOP leaders and rank-and-file want to fudge and finesse this, to bring the Good Ship Lolly-GOP safely through the reefs and rocks, and to minimize defections and vote loses, within the Capitol Dome and without.

    They are betting that IF they keep their poker faces, and IF they can hold their cards close to the chest, they truly have the winning hand here viz-a-viz Trumpsky's partners-in-Putsch. PROVIDED they play their cards well in the coming days, weeks and months.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768

    Noticeable change in tone from the Boris....no sunny uplands...on message tonight with must lockdown, must lockdown for a lot longer...

    He finally took my advice.

    Now if he only started listening to my fashion advice.
    He’d better not. The last thing any sensible person wants to see is him bollock naked.*

    *I am aware this casts aspersions on the mental soundness of many women in London.
  • Noticeable change in tone from the Boris....no sunny uplands...on message tonight with must lockdown, must lockdown for a lot longer...

    He finally took my advice.

    Now if he only started listening to my fashion advice.
    Get a new weed-wacker? OR stop using the old one for his hair AND his hedges!
  • ydoethur said:

    Noticeable change in tone from the Boris....no sunny uplands...on message tonight with must lockdown, must lockdown for a lot longer...

    He finally took my advice.

    Now if he only started listening to my fashion advice.
    He’d better not. The last thing any sensible person wants to see is him bollock naked.*

    *I am aware this casts aspersions on the mental soundness of many women in London.
    No, I was thinking of making him wear morning suits, replete with double breasted waistcoats.
  • Gaussian said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    I think the scientists are somewhat more willing to highlight the downsides and fears from the evidence than the upsides at this stage.

    New variant 10-50% more fatal? Most of the new variant patients have been treated in England's most crowded hospitals.

    Not sure R is getting below 1. It seems to be consistent everywhere, and the figures are by now reflecting, not only the post-Christmas lull, but 30% or so of the primary pupils staying back in in the New Year (albeit infection rates in this cohort are up from around 1.8 -> 2.1% in the ONS study and this subset could exponent.

    Could be locked down for a long time? Let's wait on the figures there. Especially with vaccination accelerating.

    The vaccine may not stop transmission? C'mon hasn't every vaccine in history disrupted transmission, else why are we now flu jabbing kids. And premature results from Israel? Let's wait.

    An abundance of caution going on here and medicine's first do no harm approach. We are hearing more of their fears than their hopes.

    AIU Boris tonight, and he's not always the clearest, if 1,000 60 year old's got the old virus 10 would die. If 1000 60 year old's get the new variant 13 would die. By my reckoning that is an increase in fatality of 0.3% or statistical noise as most of us would call it.
    It's 30% more bodies in coffins, which isn't statistical noise.
    Erm, how do I put this, unless you are one of the bodies in a coffin statistical noise is exactly what it is. The real problem with the new variant, and it is a massive problem which would have been totally catastrophic if we did not have working vaccines, is that it seems to be multiple times more infectious than the old. That is what has our health service hanging by a thread, not the tiny increase in mortality.
    A thirty percent increase in mortality rate isn't statistical noise.

    Both the increased R rate and the increased death rate matter. Plus I'm assuming if there's more deaths per case there's probably also more hospitalisations per case.
    Agreed, but as with the vaccines, the effect on the R rate multiplies week after week, while the effects on hospitalisations and deaths per case are one-off factors.
    As we've seen today, people who end up in hospital are much more likely to end up back in hospital.
    We really do need to get away from this naive binary of "you catch covid and then you either die or get better and then it's over."
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited January 2021
    Whitty and Valance weren't taking any shit from the idiots in the media cherry picking figures from individual non-peer reviewed papers.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768

    ydoethur said:

    Noticeable change in tone from the Boris....no sunny uplands...on message tonight with must lockdown, must lockdown for a lot longer...

    He finally took my advice.

    Now if he only started listening to my fashion advice.
    He’d better not. The last thing any sensible person wants to see is him bollock naked.*

    *I am aware this casts aspersions on the mental soundness of many women in London.
    No, I was thinking of making him wear morning suits, replete with double breasted waistcoats.
    Ugh.

    I think I’d rather see him bollock naked.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited January 2021

    Gaussian said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    I think the scientists are somewhat more willing to highlight the downsides and fears from the evidence than the upsides at this stage.

    New variant 10-50% more fatal? Most of the new variant patients have been treated in England's most crowded hospitals.

    Not sure R is getting below 1. It seems to be consistent everywhere, and the figures are by now reflecting, not only the post-Christmas lull, but 30% or so of the primary pupils staying back in in the New Year (albeit infection rates in this cohort are up from around 1.8 -> 2.1% in the ONS study and this subset could exponent.

    Could be locked down for a long time? Let's wait on the figures there. Especially with vaccination accelerating.

    The vaccine may not stop transmission? C'mon hasn't every vaccine in history disrupted transmission, else why are we now flu jabbing kids. And premature results from Israel? Let's wait.

    An abundance of caution going on here and medicine's first do no harm approach. We are hearing more of their fears than their hopes.

    AIU Boris tonight, and he's not always the clearest, if 1,000 60 year old's got the old virus 10 would die. If 1000 60 year old's get the new variant 13 would die. By my reckoning that is an increase in fatality of 0.3% or statistical noise as most of us would call it.
    It's 30% more bodies in coffins, which isn't statistical noise.
    Erm, how do I put this, unless you are one of the bodies in a coffin statistical noise is exactly what it is. The real problem with the new variant, and it is a massive problem which would have been totally catastrophic if we did not have working vaccines, is that it seems to be multiple times more infectious than the old. That is what has our health service hanging by a thread, not the tiny increase in mortality.
    A thirty percent increase in mortality rate isn't statistical noise.

    Both the increased R rate and the increased death rate matter. Plus I'm assuming if there's more deaths per case there's probably also more hospitalisations per case.
    Agreed, but as with the vaccines, the effect on the R rate multiplies week after week, while the effects on hospitalisations and deaths per case are one-off factors.
    As we've seen today, people who end up in hospital are much more likely to end up back in hospital.
    We really do need to get away from this naive binary of "you catch covid and then you either die or get better and then it's over."
    I think the government have failed to really bust the myth of the original 90% only get "mild" symptoms and it is just oldies.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    This I suspect is going to be one of the big US stories the t I'm surprised o one has mentioned yet
    https://twitter.com/POTUS/status/1352684958754734081

    Side step the Supreme court by making it law
  • GaussianGaussian Posts: 793

    North West seems to be an area where covid levels are very stubborn over long periods of time.

    Due to tier 2 in Merseyside until Dec 30 and tier 3 elsewhere, case numbers went up well into January, but they're on the way down there as well now.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,037
    I have some sympathy with the fisherfolk, as the SPS rules and veterinary rules are ridiculous, they do test my patience.

    The UK put the whole trade deal on the line for them in late December (despite being a tiny tiny minority of the economy) and they're spitting teeth because they only got 25% of the catch back rather than 80%.

    That's not a position calculated to win them much sympathy.

    I can only imagine they live in a very tight bubble.
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Noticeable change in tone from the Boris....no sunny uplands...on message tonight with must lockdown, must lockdown for a lot longer...

    He finally took my advice.

    Now if he only started listening to my fashion advice.
    He’d better not. The last thing any sensible person wants to see is him bollock naked.*

    *I am aware this casts aspersions on the mental soundness of many women in London.
    No, I was thinking of making him wear morning suits, replete with double breasted waistcoats.
    Ugh.

    I think I’d rather see him bollock naked.
    Haven't half the women of London already seen him like that?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,620

    Gaussian said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    I think the scientists are somewhat more willing to highlight the downsides and fears from the evidence than the upsides at this stage.

    New variant 10-50% more fatal? Most of the new variant patients have been treated in England's most crowded hospitals.

    Not sure R is getting below 1. It seems to be consistent everywhere, and the figures are by now reflecting, not only the post-Christmas lull, but 30% or so of the primary pupils staying back in in the New Year (albeit infection rates in this cohort are up from around 1.8 -> 2.1% in the ONS study and this subset could exponent.

    Could be locked down for a long time? Let's wait on the figures there. Especially with vaccination accelerating.

    The vaccine may not stop transmission? C'mon hasn't every vaccine in history disrupted transmission, else why are we now flu jabbing kids. And premature results from Israel? Let's wait.

    An abundance of caution going on here and medicine's first do no harm approach. We are hearing more of their fears than their hopes.

    AIU Boris tonight, and he's not always the clearest, if 1,000 60 year old's got the old virus 10 would die. If 1000 60 year old's get the new variant 13 would die. By my reckoning that is an increase in fatality of 0.3% or statistical noise as most of us would call it.
    It's 30% more bodies in coffins, which isn't statistical noise.
    Erm, how do I put this, unless you are one of the bodies in a coffin statistical noise is exactly what it is. The real problem with the new variant, and it is a massive problem which would have been totally catastrophic if we did not have working vaccines, is that it seems to be multiple times more infectious than the old. That is what has our health service hanging by a thread, not the tiny increase in mortality.
    A thirty percent increase in mortality rate isn't statistical noise.

    Both the increased R rate and the increased death rate matter. Plus I'm assuming if there's more deaths per case there's probably also more hospitalisations per case.
    Agreed, but as with the vaccines, the effect on the R rate multiplies week after week, while the effects on hospitalisations and deaths per case are one-off factors.
    As we've seen today, people who end up in hospital are much more likely to end up back in hospital.
    We really do need to get away from this naive binary of "you catch covid and then you either die or get better and then it's over."
    Is anyone actually saying that though? Does anyone think that?

    The simple truth is that for the vast majority of people Covid is a mild or even imperceptible illness.

    For an unfortunate minority, it’s horrible, with a nasty recovery process, which can rebound.

    And it kills some.

    None of these facts has changed, and I think most people are aware of them.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,753
    edited January 2021
    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625
    UK vaccination data - reworked the graphs

    image

    First vaccinations

    image

    Second vaccinations

    image

    % Population

    image
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,037

    Thanks for tips on previous thread, all.

    I don't think I could cut out all alcohol right now. Life is too boring and the days are too short. Maybe I could shift to beer to wine, though.

    I like the low carbs in the evening. I need to think more about exercise.

    Calorie counting and weighing doesn't work for me. I obsess about food and weight and get obsessive/disllusioned too easily. And I'd rather die than just eat plants - I need a balanced diet where I can eat meat too. .

    I should probably cut out takeaways and processed food and get on the bike for at least an hour a day. And eat more eggs with meals for the long burn?

    Try ducking beer and exploring wines instead, and just ship the processed food completely - full of refined sugar and shit.

    Don’t worry about butter - fat doesn’t make you fat, sugar makes you fat.

    Red meat, great fish - all good.
    I like the sound of all of this, mate.

    Thanks!
  • DavidL said:


    Erm, how do I put this, unless you are one of the bodies in a coffin statistical noise is exactly what it is. The real problem with the new variant, and it is a massive problem which would have been totally catastrophic if we did not have working vaccines, is that it seems to be multiple times more infectious than the old. That is what has our health service hanging by a thread, not the tiny increase in mortality.

    Yes, that's true to an extent. A 30% increase in the mortality rate, if confirmed, is bad news, but it's less worrying than the extra infectiousness. Even so, 30% more deaths even if it weren't more infectious is not insignificant.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Do we still have Covid-deniers loitering this webpage?

    The reason I ask is, when I was suffering with 'long Covid' between March and April (and May, June, July etc.) and updating politcalbetting about my long Covid (before the term had even been coined and before I gave up on the site) I was castigated by a certain member here, basically implying that I was telling one great big porkie. As if lying about your life falling apart is the sort of thing you just do.. Unfortunately I wasn't and I was seriously ill for a long time, despite being young and having no 'underlying health conditions'.

    So anyway, Covid is the real deal. It is a horrific virus, in the wrong person/immunological response. You wouldn't wish on your worst enemy. Even on the deniers.

    On the positive side, there were many posters on this site that do/did restore my faith in humanity. God bless you guys.

    I’m glad you are around - I must have missed your departure. Please do come back again for good
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    0.3 pp or 30%? I think the former is more useful and honest.
  • ydoethur said:

    Noticeable change in tone from the Boris....no sunny uplands...on message tonight with must lockdown, must lockdown for a lot longer...

    He finally took my advice.

    Now if he only started listening to my fashion advice.
    He’d better not. The last thing any sensible person wants to see is him bollock naked.*

    *I am aware this casts aspersions on the mental soundness of many women in London.
    No, I was thinking of making him wear morning suits, replete with double breasted waistcoats.
    Perhaps he could adopt full Churchillian rig: stripped pants, silk underwear, waistcoat with fob, patent topper - the whole hog.

    Including "boiler suits" for "business casual" settings. And substituting best British beef-sticks for Cuban cigars.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,037

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
  • Gaussian said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    I think the scientists are somewhat more willing to highlight the downsides and fears from the evidence than the upsides at this stage.

    New variant 10-50% more fatal? Most of the new variant patients have been treated in England's most crowded hospitals.

    Not sure R is getting below 1. It seems to be consistent everywhere, and the figures are by now reflecting, not only the post-Christmas lull, but 30% or so of the primary pupils staying back in in the New Year (albeit infection rates in this cohort are up from around 1.8 -> 2.1% in the ONS study and this subset could exponent.

    Could be locked down for a long time? Let's wait on the figures there. Especially with vaccination accelerating.

    The vaccine may not stop transmission? C'mon hasn't every vaccine in history disrupted transmission, else why are we now flu jabbing kids. And premature results from Israel? Let's wait.

    An abundance of caution going on here and medicine's first do no harm approach. We are hearing more of their fears than their hopes.

    AIU Boris tonight, and he's not always the clearest, if 1,000 60 year old's got the old virus 10 would die. If 1000 60 year old's get the new variant 13 would die. By my reckoning that is an increase in fatality of 0.3% or statistical noise as most of us would call it.
    It's 30% more bodies in coffins, which isn't statistical noise.
    Erm, how do I put this, unless you are one of the bodies in a coffin statistical noise is exactly what it is. The real problem with the new variant, and it is a massive problem which would have been totally catastrophic if we did not have working vaccines, is that it seems to be multiple times more infectious than the old. That is what has our health service hanging by a thread, not the tiny increase in mortality.
    A thirty percent increase in mortality rate isn't statistical noise.

    Both the increased R rate and the increased death rate matter. Plus I'm assuming if there's more deaths per case there's probably also more hospitalisations per case.
    Agreed, but as with the vaccines, the effect on the R rate multiplies week after week, while the effects on hospitalisations and deaths per case are one-off factors.
    As we've seen today, people who end up in hospital are much more likely to end up back in hospital.
    We really do need to get away from this naive binary of "you catch covid and then you either die or get better and then it's over."
    Is anyone actually saying that though? Does anyone think that?

    The simple truth is that for the vast majority of people Covid is a mild or even imperceptible illness.

    For an unfortunate minority, it’s horrible, with a nasty recovery process, which can rebound.

    And it kills some.

    None of these facts has changed, and I think most people are aware of them.
    I mean, the post I was directly responding to says
    "while the effects on hospitalisations and deaths per case are one-off factors"

    Hospitalisation is not a "one-off factor". You end up in hospital, you may end up in hospital multiple times. So yes, unless I've wildly misinterpreted what was meant then yes, some people are saying that.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Is this for real? If so it's quite funny, although clearly 'Dave' forgot that the think to do when Johnny Foreigner doesn't understand you is to shout louder:

    https://twitter.com/Adam_SH69/status/1352606875368480772

    It's often the case that these ridiculous stories are fake.
    I did a check and that's the sort of customs you'd have to pay in that scenario.
    A well-researched story then, doesn't mean it isn't made up.
    Although he believes the EU us petty enough to tie concessions on financial services to diplomatic recognition of the EU representative. So may be he’s on to something? 🤷‍♂️
  • I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    THAT is the bust that's got the neo-Little-Englanders so agitated?

    Man, it is UGLY certainly wouldn't want to have to look at it during working hours.

    Imagine Winston might feel; the same. After all, he got his wife to BURN his official portrait, not just send it to the cellar.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Is this for real? If so it's quite funny, although clearly 'Dave' forgot that the think to do when Johnny Foreigner doesn't understand you is to shout louder:

    https://twitter.com/Adam_SH69/status/1352606875368480772

    This is also real.
    I have more sympathy for June Mummery than most of the Brexit Party lot. At least she had skin in the game and was fighting for what she believed would help, even if she was misled.
    Same, don't blame/mock the conned, blame the conmen and women.
    Agreed. All those people who were saying Nissan was leaving and we didn’t have any battery manufacturing in the Uk
  • I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    They don't "need" to do anything of the sort. I feel sorry for you that the office décor of a new president is causing you a slow-burn multi-day meltdown, but I do think a sharp word is needed now: GET SOME FUCKING PERSPECTIVE.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,037

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    THAT is the bust that's got the neo-Little-Englanders so agitated?

    Man, it is UGLY certainly wouldn't want to have to look at it during working hours.

    Imagine Winston might feel; the same. After all, he got his wife to BURN his official portrait, not just send it to the cellar.
    It's not about the bust.

    Everyone knows it's not about the bust. The Americans, the British.. everyone.

    Let's not pretend it's just a bust. It's the message.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 2,182

    Noticeable change in tone from the Boris....no sunny uplands...on message tonight with must lockdown, must lockdown for a lot longer...

    He finally took my advice.

    Now if he only started listening to my fashion advice.
    well... the mob is beginning to gather... and to be honest if Rees-Mogg and "Johnson" are the target, then the Tories will face something that makes 97 looks like a minor problem....
  • CrabbieCrabbie Posts: 55

    Carnyx said:

    Whitty again made it clear capacity of jabbers isn't a problem, supply is still a big limiting factor.

    not sure then why having night shifts
    PR con trick? (I don't know, to be fair. But I wonder.)
    I really really hope we are not basing any policy on covid on PR because if we are anyone who is wants banishing from office
    So who in the No.10 machine ISN’T from a PR / journalist background?

    PS - Just backed a Trump impeachment at 6.00. Bound to drop shorter than that in the next few weeks....
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited January 2021
    I've finally found some real data on the efficacy of the Pfizer vaccine in Israel, although it seems to be only in Hebrew. The study compared 200,000 people vaccinated (predominantly over-60) with 200,000 not vaccinated, and looked at the results of Covid tests (i.e. it included non-symptomatic cases):

    https://www.clalit.co.il/he/your_health/family/Pages/pfizer_covid_vac_effect.aspx

    Using Google translate, lightly edited for clarity:

    Among the vaccinated group, on the 14th day of receiving the first dose of the vaccine, there was a significant decrease - of about 33% - in the rate of positive tests for the corona virus.

    Between the 15th and 17th day after receiving the first dose, the numbers remained similar: a decrease of about 20% to 40% in the rate of positive tests for Corona.
    ..
    It should be emphasized: these are only preliminary results of the study that focused on those aged 60 and over.

    It should be noted that Clalit's study identified those infected with Corona according to laboratory tests of those who chose to be tested, while Pfizer's study referred to the appearance of a disease with symptoms.


    So far, nothing after the 17th day, and no info on the effect on symptomatic cases. Thus, reports that the first dose was only 30% effective were misleading.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,620

    Thanks for tips on previous thread, all.

    I don't think I could cut out all alcohol right now. Life is too boring and the days are too short. Maybe I could shift to beer to wine, though.

    I like the low carbs in the evening. I need to think more about exercise.

    Calorie counting and weighing doesn't work for me. I obsess about food and weight and get obsessive/disllusioned too easily. And I'd rather die than just eat plants - I need a balanced diet where I can eat meat too. .

    I should probably cut out takeaways and processed food and get on the bike for at least an hour a day. And eat more eggs with meals for the long burn?

    Try ducking beer and exploring wines instead, and just ship the processed food completely - full of refined sugar and shit.

    Don’t worry about butter - fat doesn’t make you fat, sugar makes you fat.

    Red meat, great fish - all good.
    I like the sound of all of this, mate.

    Thanks!
    No worries. Good luck - just keep natural and enjoy your food.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,037

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    They don't "need" to do anything of the sort. I feel sorry for you that the office décor of a new president is causing you a slow-burn multi-day meltdown, but I do think a sharp word is needed now: GET SOME FUCKING PERSPECTIVE.
    No meltdown. I just see it for what it is. And so do you; it's just you don't mind, because politics.

    The reason the bust was moved is because Boris criticised, vociferously, Obama doing the same with the "part-Kenyan" jibe. Trump put it back (making it even worse). And Biden's team haven't forgotten it. In fact, it was regularly mentioned by their shadow team.

    Moving it was a message - to their own base and to Boris.

    Let's not pretend it wasn't.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    Need to explain to a minor ally how the President chooses to decorate his own office? Do you realise how mad that sounds?

    You are right about the importance of Johnson's "no uncertain terms" though. This is no longer primarily about Churchill or busts, it is about the petty, spiteful, illiberal racism of Johnson's words in 2009.
  • I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    THAT is the bust that's got the neo-Little-Englanders so agitated?

    Man, it is UGLY certainly wouldn't want to have to look at it during working hours.

    Imagine Winston might feel; the same. After all, he got his wife to BURN his official portrait, not just send it to the cellar.
    It's not about the bust.

    Everyone knows it's not about the bust. The Americans, the British.. everyone.

    Let's not pretend it's just a bust. It's the message.
    You sound like one of those people who pulled down the Colston statue.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    DavidL said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    I think the scientists are somewhat more willing to highlight the downsides and fears from the evidence than the upsides at this stage.

    New variant 10-50% more fatal? Most of the new variant patients have been treated in England's most crowded hospitals.

    Not sure R is getting below 1. It seems to be consistent everywhere, and the figures are by now reflecting, not only the post-Christmas lull, but 30% or so of the primary pupils staying back in in the New Year (albeit infection rates in this cohort are up from around 1.8 -> 2.1% in the ONS study and this subset could exponent.

    Could be locked down for a long time? Let's wait on the figures there. Especially with vaccination accelerating.

    The vaccine may not stop transmission? C'mon hasn't every vaccine in history disrupted transmission, else why are we now flu jabbing kids. And premature results from Israel? Let's wait.

    An abundance of caution going on here and medicine's first do no harm approach. We are hearing more of their fears than their hopes.

    AIU Boris tonight, and he's not always the clearest, if 1,000 60 year old's got the old virus 10 would die. If 1000 60 year old's get the new variant 13 would die. By my reckoning that is an increase in fatality of 0.3% or statistical noise as most of us would call it.
    30% increase in relative risk though
  • Crabbie said:

    Carnyx said:

    Whitty again made it clear capacity of jabbers isn't a problem, supply is still a big limiting factor.

    not sure then why having night shifts
    PR con trick? (I don't know, to be fair. But I wonder.)
    I really really hope we are not basing any policy on covid on PR because if we are anyone who is wants banishing from office
    So who in the No.10 machine ISN’T from a PR / journalist background?

    PS - Just backed a Trump impeachment at 6.00. Bound to drop shorter than that in the next few weeks....
    It could well do, but it's certainly not "bound" to drop. A clear statement from someone like Mitch McConnell that he believes this is vexatious and it will be actively opposed by the Republicans will kill any chance of conviction stone dead.
    Who knows what their focus groups will turn up in the coming days. It very easy to see a situation where that price flies out to "ain't happening" territory.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    Need to explain to a minor ally how the President chooses to decorate his own office? Do you realise how mad that sounds?

    You are right about the importance of Johnson's "no uncertain terms" though. This is no longer primarily about Churchill or busts, it is about the petty, spiteful, illiberal racism of Johnson's words in 2009.
    And 2016, his comments about Obama's 'half Kenyan' heritage was seen in America as one of those coded racist terms.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    THAT is the bust that's got the neo-Little-Englanders so agitated?

    Man, it is UGLY certainly wouldn't want to have to look at it during working hours.

    Imagine Winston might feel; the same. After all, he got his wife to BURN his official portrait, not just send it to the cellar.
    It's not about the bust.

    Everyone knows it's not about the bust. The Americans, the British.. everyone.

    Let's not pretend it's just a bust. It's the message.
    Have all future Presidents got to keep Churchill's ugly mug on view ad infinitum?

    Is the UK's self-belief so slight that take the removal of a statuette as a national affront?
  • You are having a giraffe....

    Somerset’s only mass Covid-19 vaccination centre, based at Taunton Racecourse, is to close tomorrow (Saturday, January) for horse racing.

    https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/somerset-news/somersets-only-covid-19-vaccination-4918215
  • Have we heard anymore, from the eminent historian and Spectator hack, who said that sign-language interpretation of the Pledge of Allegiance at President Biden's inaugural was "tik-tock political correctness"

    Rare instance of the deaf being mocked by the dumb and blind.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840

    I've finally found some real data on the efficacy of the Pfizer vaccine in Israel, although it seems to be only in Hebrew. The study compared 200,000 people vaccinated (predominantly over-60) with 200,000 not vaccinated, and looked at the results of Covid tests (i.e. it included non-symptomatic cases):

    https://www.clalit.co.il/he/your_health/family/Pages/pfizer_covid_vac_effect.aspx

    Using Google translate, lightly edited for clarity:

    Among the vaccinated group, on the 14th day of receiving the first dose of the vaccine, there was a significant decrease - of about 33% - in the rate of positive tests for the corona virus.

    Between the 15th and 17th day after receiving the first dose, the numbers remained similar: a decrease of about 20% to 40% in the rate of positive tests for Corona.
    ..
    It should be emphasized: these are only preliminary results of the study that focused on those aged 60 and over.

    It should be noted that Clalit's study identified those infected with Corona according to laboratory tests of those who chose to be tested, while Pfizer's study referred to the appearance of a disease with symptoms.


    So far, nothing after the 17th day, and no info on the effect on symptomatic cases. Thus, reports that the first dose was only 30% effective were misleading.

    That would have been way more impressive without the "using Google translate" bit.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 3,853
    edited January 2021

    I've finally found some real data on the efficacy of the Pfizer vaccine in Israel, although it seems to be only in Hebrew. The study compared 200,000 people vaccinated (predominantly over-60) with 200,000 not vaccinated, and looked at the results of Covid tests (i.e. it included non-symptomatic cases):

    https://www.clalit.co.il/he/your_health/family/Pages/pfizer_covid_vac_effect.aspx

    Using Google translate, lightly edited for clarity:

    Among the vaccinated group, on the 14th day of receiving the first dose of the vaccine, there was a significant decrease - of about 33% - in the rate of positive tests for the corona virus.

    Between the 15th and 17th day after receiving the first dose, the numbers remained similar: a decrease of about 20% to 40% in the rate of positive tests for Corona.
    ..
    It should be emphasized: these are only preliminary results of the study that focused on those aged 60 and over.

    It should be noted that Clalit's study identified those infected with Corona according to laboratory tests of those who chose to be tested, while Pfizer's study referred to the appearance of a disease with symptoms.


    So far, nothing after the 17th day, and no info on the effect on symptomatic cases. Thus, reports that the first dose was only 30% effective were misleading.

    Presumably if you are testing positive on the 14th day, then this is really about the effectiveness of the vaccine on day 9 or thereabouts? Possibly even earlier if the vaccine delays symptoms.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,037

    IshmaelZ said:

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    Need to explain to a minor ally how the President chooses to decorate his own office? Do you realise how mad that sounds?

    You are right about the importance of Johnson's "no uncertain terms" though. This is no longer primarily about Churchill or busts, it is about the petty, spiteful, illiberal racism of Johnson's words in 2009.
    And 2016, his comments about Obama's 'half Kenyan' heritage was seen in America as one of those coded racist terms.
    Yes, we all know that's what this is about.

    So why hide it?

    The complicating issue is that Churchill is a founder (and an emblem) of the UK-US special relationship so, notwithstanding Boris's insensitive words, it should have been handled more carefully.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    And? You can either ignore the snub or make a big deal of it.

    And if you do the latter I suspect the next answer would be one you didn't want to hear.
  • CrabbieCrabbie Posts: 55
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    I think the scientists are somewhat more willing to highlight the downsides and fears from the evidence than the upsides at this stage.

    New variant 10-50% more fatal? Most of the new variant patients have been treated in England's most crowded hospitals.

    Not sure R is getting below 1. It seems to be consistent everywhere, and the figures are by now reflecting, not only the post-Christmas lull, but 30% or so of the primary pupils staying back in in the New Year (albeit infection rates in this cohort are up from around 1.8 -> 2.1% in the ONS study and this subset could exponent.

    Could be locked down for a long time? Let's wait on the figures there. Especially with vaccination accelerating.

    The vaccine may not stop transmission? C'mon hasn't every vaccine in history disrupted transmission, else why are we now flu jabbing kids. And premature results from Israel? Let's wait.

    An abundance of caution going on here and medicine's first do no harm approach. We are hearing more of their fears than their hopes.

    AIU Boris tonight, and he's not always the clearest, if 1,000 60 year old's got the old virus 10 would die. If 1000 60 year old's get the new variant 13 would die. By my reckoning that is an increase in fatality of 0.3% or statistical noise as most of us would call it.
    It's 30% more bodies in coffins, which isn't statistical noise.
    Erm, how do I put this, unless you are one of the bodies in a coffin statistical noise is exactly what it is. The real problem with the new variant, and it is a massive problem which would have been totally catastrophic if we did not have working vaccines, is that it seems to be multiple times more infectious than the old. That is what has our health service hanging by a thread, not the tiny increase in mortality.
    If 13 people die when previously 10 people died, that is a 30% increase in mortality. An increase of 30% is not ‘statistical noise’.

    Assuming the estimate of 42,000 UK deaths in the first wave is correct, then it implies that this would have increased to a total of 54,000 deaths In the first waves if the more deadly version of the virus had been prevalent at the time. (This ignores second order effects like hospitals being overwhelmed, which would increase it further)



  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,037

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    THAT is the bust that's got the neo-Little-Englanders so agitated?

    Man, it is UGLY certainly wouldn't want to have to look at it during working hours.

    Imagine Winston might feel; the same. After all, he got his wife to BURN his official portrait, not just send it to the cellar.
    It's not about the bust.

    Everyone knows it's not about the bust. The Americans, the British.. everyone.

    Let's not pretend it's just a bust. It's the message.
    You sound like one of those people who pulled down the Colston statue.
    I'm not the one moving or removing it.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,037
    IshmaelZ said:

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    Need to explain to a minor ally how the President chooses to decorate his own office? Do you realise how mad that sounds?

    You are right about the importance of Johnson's "no uncertain terms" though. This is no longer primarily about Churchill or busts, it is about the petty, spiteful, illiberal racism of Johnson's words in 2009.
    Right, so you agree with me that it was a message then.

    Thank you.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    Need to explain to a minor ally how the President chooses to decorate his own office? Do you realise how mad that sounds?

    You are right about the importance of Johnson's "no uncertain terms" though. This is no longer primarily about Churchill or busts, it is about the petty, spiteful, illiberal racism of Johnson's words in 2009.
    And 2016, his comments about Obama's 'half Kenyan' heritage was seen in America as one of those coded racist terms.
    Where are you getting "coded" from?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    I see flag totemism has moved on. If you haven't got a bust of Winston on your desk then you must be a woke cultural Marxist.
  • Crabbie said:

    Carnyx said:

    Whitty again made it clear capacity of jabbers isn't a problem, supply is still a big limiting factor.

    not sure then why having night shifts
    PR con trick? (I don't know, to be fair. But I wonder.)
    I really really hope we are not basing any policy on covid on PR because if we are anyone who is wants banishing from office
    So who in the No.10 machine ISN’T from a PR / journalist background?

    PS - Just backed a Trump impeachment at 6.00. Bound to drop shorter than that in the next few weeks....
    Crabbie, you may be pleased (or not) to learn that yours truly has a few bottles of "Crabbie's Spiced Orange Alcoholic Ginger Beer. "Best served chilled with a slice of orange." Produced and bottled in Huyton, UK, 4.8% alc/vol

    It is foul stuff, like what I'd expect you'd get from mixing a packet of orange Kool-Aid into a bottle of Bud.
  • I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    Sure, it was a statement wholly in response to Boris starting a culture war back and forth message, and being seen to attack the President of the USA in racist terms. Reminding us who is the boss. Live with it. Or better still drop the culture war nonsense and work with the USA when they need Western help to rebuild after the culture wars escalated out of all control over there.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,037
    eek said:

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    And? You can either ignore the snub or make a big deal of it.

    And if you do the latter I suspect the next answer would be one you didn't want to hear.
    We all know it was a snub. Even you.

    The reason posters like you are hyperventilating about it is that you know I'm right but you don't want anything to intrude on Biden's honeymoon and the belief the sun shines out of his arse.

    Get used to it. The Wokeness of this administration is going to drive everything it does, and it will be off the scale.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    Re diet. Lost 5 stones in 12 months 3 years ago.
    By eating proper meals so I was full. And thereby avoiding ALL snacks.
    And taking slightly more exercise.
    As the weight came off I was simply able to exercise more vigorously. Not for longer, just quicker.
    But that came after the snacks got the chop.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited January 2021

    I've finally found some real data on the efficacy of the Pfizer vaccine in Israel, although it seems to be only in Hebrew. The study compared 200,000 people vaccinated (predominantly over-60) with 200,000 not vaccinated, and looked at the results of Covid tests (i.e. it included non-symptomatic cases):

    https://www.clalit.co.il/he/your_health/family/Pages/pfizer_covid_vac_effect.aspx

    Using Google translate, lightly edited for clarity:

    Among the vaccinated group, on the 14th day of receiving the first dose of the vaccine, there was a significant decrease - of about 33% - in the rate of positive tests for the corona virus.

    Between the 15th and 17th day after receiving the first dose, the numbers remained similar: a decrease of about 20% to 40% in the rate of positive tests for Corona.
    ..
    It should be emphasized: these are only preliminary results of the study that focused on those aged 60 and over.

    It should be noted that Clalit's study identified those infected with Corona according to laboratory tests of those who chose to be tested, while Pfizer's study referred to the appearance of a disease with symptoms.


    So far, nothing after the 17th day, and no info on the effect on symptomatic cases. Thus, reports that the first dose was only 30% effective were misleading.

    Presumably if you are testing positive on the 14th day, then this is really about the effectiveness of the vaccine on day 9 or thereabouts? Possibly even earlier if the vaccine delays symptoms.
    Possibly. In any case it wouldn't be too surprising if the vaccine didn't protect to the extent of the virus not showing up in the tests. Pfizer didn't look at that in their study.

    More data needed, but this study so far doesn't on the face of it contradict anything we expected.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Thanks for tips on previous thread, all.

    I don't think I could cut out all alcohol right now. Life is too boring and the days are too short. Maybe I could shift to beer to wine, though.

    I like the low carbs in the evening. I need to think more about exercise.

    Calorie counting and weighing doesn't work for me. I obsess about food and weight and get obsessive/disllusioned too easily. And I'd rather die than just eat plants - I need a balanced diet where I can eat meat too. .

    I should probably cut out takeaways and processed food and get on the bike for at least an hour a day. And eat more eggs with meals for the long burn?

    I dropped breakfast, shifted to ham and cheese and fruit for lunch and a normal dinner. Have lost 35 lbs since September
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,037

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    Sure, it was a statement wholly in response to Boris starting a culture war back and forth message, and being seen to attack the President of the USA in racist terms. Reminding us who is the boss. Live with it. Or better still drop the culture war nonsense and work with the USA when they need Western help to rebuild after the culture wars escalated out of all control over there.
    Oh, I can live with it - like you say, it's just a bust of a head in the Oval Office - but let's not pretend it's a snub.

    It was, and it is.

    My view is that will have an effect (however undetectable) on the quality of the Biden-Johnson relationship going forwards, and the undercurrents of domestic politics that underpins it on both sides of the pond.

    That's all. I'm just telling you how it is.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    Need to explain to a minor ally how the President chooses to decorate his own office? Do you realise how mad that sounds?

    You are right about the importance of Johnson's "no uncertain terms" though. This is no longer primarily about Churchill or busts, it is about the petty, spiteful, illiberal racism of Johnson's words in 2009.
    Right, so you agree with me that it was a message then.

    Thank you.
    Yes. Of course it was. Why do think that anyone is denying that?

    The message being, racism doesn't pay. Good message in my view.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082

    I've finally found some real data on the efficacy of the Pfizer vaccine in Israel, although it seems to be only in Hebrew. The study compared 200,000 people vaccinated (predominantly over-60) with 200,000 not vaccinated, and looked at the results of Covid tests (i.e. it included non-symptomatic cases):

    https://www.clalit.co.il/he/your_health/family/Pages/pfizer_covid_vac_effect.aspx

    Using Google translate, lightly edited for clarity:

    Among the vaccinated group, on the 14th day of receiving the first dose of the vaccine, there was a significant decrease - of about 33% - in the rate of positive tests for the corona virus.

    Between the 15th and 17th day after receiving the first dose, the numbers remained similar: a decrease of about 20% to 40% in the rate of positive tests for Corona.
    ..
    It should be emphasized: these are only preliminary results of the study that focused on those aged 60 and over.

    It should be noted that Clalit's study identified those infected with Corona according to laboratory tests of those who chose to be tested, while Pfizer's study referred to the appearance of a disease with symptoms.


    So far, nothing after the 17th day, and no info on the effect on symptomatic cases. Thus, reports that the first dose was only 30% effective were misleading.

    The Pfizer study figures were for symptomatic patients too, with defined symptoms.
  • I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    They don't "need" to do anything of the sort. I feel sorry for you that the office décor of a new president is causing you a slow-burn multi-day meltdown, but I do think a sharp word is needed now: GET SOME FUCKING PERSPECTIVE.
    No meltdown. I just see it for what it is. And so do you; it's just you don't mind, because politics.

    The reason the bust was moved is because Boris criticised, vociferously, Obama doing the same with the "part-Kenyan" jibe. Trump put it back (making it even worse). And Biden's team haven't forgotten it. In fact, it was regularly mentioned by their shadow team.

    Moving it was a message - to their own base and to Boris.

    Let's not pretend it wasn't.
    I'm truly baffled that you think anyone should care. Why does 45 putting it back matter to anyone? Why does Biden removing it even register on anyone's radar?
    I don't have to sit there and look at it, it's in a country thousands of miles away, in a building I'll never get into even if I cared to go there. It's a triple stack nothing burger with a duck egg topping. It's the biggest pile of who gives a shit I have ever seen.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281

    Thanks for tips on previous thread, all.

    I don't think I could cut out all alcohol right now. Life is too boring and the days are too short. Maybe I could shift to beer to wine, though.

    I like the low carbs in the evening. I need to think more about exercise.

    Calorie counting and weighing doesn't work for me. I obsess about food and weight and get obsessive/disllusioned too easily. And I'd rather die than just eat plants - I need a balanced diet where I can eat meat too. .

    I should probably cut out takeaways and processed food and get on the bike for at least an hour a day. And eat more eggs with meals for the long burn?

    Try ducking beer and exploring wines instead, and just ship the processed food completely - full of refined sugar and shit.

    Don’t worry about butter - fat doesn’t make you fat, sugar makes you fat.

    Red meat, great fish - all good.
    I like the sound of all of this, mate.

    Thanks!
    Sadly, it's largely all about calories in and out. It you want to lose a couple of pounds a week you have to intake 1,000 calories less than you expend. Every day.

    Protein and fat satisfy for longer than sugar and other carbs imo. So, although fat in particular is very calory dense, it goes a long way.

    Alcohol has both calories and the property of dissolving willpower, so I do best if I avoid it when trying to lose weight.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,972
    edited January 2021

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    THAT is the bust that's got the neo-Little-Englanders so agitated?

    Man, it is UGLY certainly wouldn't want to have to look at it during working hours.

    Imagine Winston might feel; the same. After all, he got his wife to BURN his official portrait, not just send it to the cellar.
    It's not about the bust.

    Everyone knows it's not about the bust. The Americans, the British.. everyone.

    Let's not pretend it's just a bust. It's the message.
    You sound like one of those people who pulled down the Colston statue.
    I'm not the one moving or removing it.
    But you are getting exercised over it.

    Look at it this way, Biden received more votes than any person in American history, he's decided to take back control of the White House.

    But I'll ask you this question, if it a symbol fo the special relationship can you let me know where the bust of FDR is in 10/11 Downing Street. I've been to Downing Street a few times and didn't see it.

    To be honest, I'd be more worried if the UK/US intelligence partnership was changed, rather than this sodding bust.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,037

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    Sorry CR. You know that you and I see eye to eye on many things but this is one where I am afraid you have gone way overboard.

    The President does not have to explain anything. Not one damn thing. It his his office, his seat of power and his right to decorate it any way he wants.

    There will be a very long list of people he might want to honour in his office - and I do accept that every picture, every sculpting is symbolic. But Churchill is just one of dozens - probably hundreds - of people worthy of being honoured with a place in the Oval Office and perhaps Biden just decided that it was time someone else got a bit of reverence.

    I very much fear I am going to be disappointed by the Biden presidency (although I am very open to being proved wrong on this, indeed a really do hope I am). But the fact he has moved out a bust to another room or even into storage does not bother me for one nano-second. Nor should it bother you.
    Of course he can. And I largely agree with you. But any astute politician will be aware of and attuned to the political implications of any of his actions, and how they can be perceived. Churchill is a deeply important symbol in US-UK relations - and this bust in particular, due to past controversy. We all know that.

    I think, on this, Biden could have reassured - but either chose not to or forgot not to. Either way, I think that tells us a little bit about his administration.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,037
    edited January 2021

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    They don't "need" to do anything of the sort. I feel sorry for you that the office décor of a new president is causing you a slow-burn multi-day meltdown, but I do think a sharp word is needed now: GET SOME FUCKING PERSPECTIVE.
    No meltdown. I just see it for what it is. And so do you; it's just you don't mind, because politics.

    The reason the bust was moved is because Boris criticised, vociferously, Obama doing the same with the "part-Kenyan" jibe. Trump put it back (making it even worse). And Biden's team haven't forgotten it. In fact, it was regularly mentioned by their shadow team.

    Moving it was a message - to their own base and to Boris.

    Let's not pretend it wasn't.
    I'm truly baffled that you think anyone should care. Why does 45 putting it back matter to anyone? Why does Biden removing it even register on anyone's radar?
    I don't have to sit there and look at it, it's in a country thousands of miles away, in a building I'll never get into even if I cared to go there. It's a triple stack nothing burger with a duck egg topping. It's the biggest pile of who gives a shit I have ever seen.
    Right, so you agree it's a snub - it's just we shouldn't care.

    That's progress, I guess.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    Need to explain to a minor ally how the President chooses to decorate his own office? Do you realise how mad that sounds?

    You are right about the importance of Johnson's "no uncertain terms" though. This is no longer primarily about Churchill or busts, it is about the petty, spiteful, illiberal racism of Johnson's words in 2009.
    And 2016, his comments about Obama's 'half Kenyan' heritage was seen in America as one of those coded racist terms.
    Where are you getting "coded" from?
    I was being polite.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082

    eek said:

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    And? You can either ignore the snub or make a big deal of it.

    And if you do the latter I suspect the next answer would be one you didn't want to hear.
    We all know it was a snub. Even you.

    The reason posters like you are hyperventilating about it is that you know I'm right but you don't want anything to intrude on Biden's honeymoon and the belief the sun shines out of his arse.

    Get used to it. The Wokeness of this administration is going to drive everything it does, and it will be off the scale.
    It looks to me that it is you that is hyperventilating. I couldn't care less how Biden decorates his office.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    Charles said:

    Thanks for tips on previous thread, all.

    I don't think I could cut out all alcohol right now. Life is too boring and the days are too short. Maybe I could shift to beer to wine, though.

    I like the low carbs in the evening. I need to think more about exercise.

    Calorie counting and weighing doesn't work for me. I obsess about food and weight and get obsessive/disllusioned too easily. And I'd rather die than just eat plants - I need a balanced diet where I can eat meat too. .

    I should probably cut out takeaways and processed food and get on the bike for at least an hour a day. And eat more eggs with meals for the long burn?

    I dropped breakfast, shifted to ham and cheese and fruit for lunch and a normal dinner. Have lost 35 lbs since September
    That's good going, well done. We cut out lunch, aided by the fact that, being retired, we can now eat dinner at 5 or even 4pm if we wish.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited January 2021
    I appear to have accidentally logged on to weight watchers....
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,037

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    THAT is the bust that's got the neo-Little-Englanders so agitated?

    Man, it is UGLY certainly wouldn't want to have to look at it during working hours.

    Imagine Winston might feel; the same. After all, he got his wife to BURN his official portrait, not just send it to the cellar.
    It's not about the bust.

    Everyone knows it's not about the bust. The Americans, the British.. everyone.

    Let's not pretend it's just a bust. It's the message.
    You sound like one of those people who pulled down the Colston statue.
    I'm not the one moving or removing it.
    But you are getting exercised over it.

    Look at it this way, Biden received more votes than any person in American history, he's decided to take back control of the White House.

    But I'll ask you this question, if it a symbol fo the special relationship can you let me know where the bust of FDR is in 10/11 Downing Street. I've been to Downing Street a few times and didn't see it.

    To be honest, I'd be more worried if the UK/US intelligence partnership was changed, rather than this sodding bust.
    I'd be happy with such a bust of FDR.

    This has become an issue because Blair gifted it to Bush, and it was then removed. It was then restored again (with fanfare) and it has now been removed again, without explanation.

    I just know enough about the politics to know this will cause issues. It will be interesting to see how it develops over the coming days and weeks.

    The US embassy have already been sufficiently worried to put out a video about it (which doesn't really cut it in my mind)
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    edited January 2021
    If you are going to replace Winston Churchill, it puts one hell of an onus on the person replacing him to justify their CV....

    "Okay, yes, I'll give you that. Obama won a Nobel Prize too.... How does he stack up on defeating evil empires though? He had a light sabre? As a kid? Well that seals it, sorry Winnie...."
  • I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    Sure, it was a statement wholly in response to Boris starting a culture war back and forth message, and being seen to attack the President of the USA in racist terms. Reminding us who is the boss. Live with it. Or better still drop the culture war nonsense and work with the USA when they need Western help to rebuild after the culture wars escalated out of all control over there.
    Oh, I can live with it - like you say, it's just a bust of a head in the Oval Office - but let's not pretend it's a snub.

    It was, and it is.

    My view is that will have an effect (however undetectable) on the quality of the Biden-Johnson relationship going forwards, and the undercurrents of domestic politics that underpins it on both sides of the pond.

    That's all. I'm just telling you how it is.
    Is Biden making it clear to our govt that exporting or encouraging culture wars to the US will have a diplomatic cost? Absolutely and he is right to do so.

    Boris was ridiculous and antagonistic with the half Kenyan jibe, expecting that he has any say on how the US President decorates his office and should expect his volleys returned from the most powerful country in the world.
  • Mary_BattyMary_Batty Posts: 630
    edited January 2021
    Foxy said:

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    I see flag totemism has moved on. If you haven't got a bust of Winston on your desk then you must be a woke cultural Marxist.
    These people who only have Churchill busts are basically appeasers of fascism. You only get a pass if you have a full size Churchill sex doll with realistic poppy lapel badge.
    I don't see any evidence that Biden is complying, so it's time for WAR.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,037
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    Need to explain to a minor ally how the President chooses to decorate his own office? Do you realise how mad that sounds?

    You are right about the importance of Johnson's "no uncertain terms" though. This is no longer primarily about Churchill or busts, it is about the petty, spiteful, illiberal racism of Johnson's words in 2009.
    Right, so you agree with me that it was a message then.

    Thank you.
    Yes. Of course it was. Why do think that anyone is denying that?

    The message being, racism doesn't pay. Good message in my view.
    I think it's prioritising trying to give Boris as the sitting PM (and others) a message about racism at the risk of damaging the sentiment and affection that underpins the special relationship. US diplomats will know very well how revered Churchill is here.

    I think the bigger thing to have done would have been to keep it or move it elsewhere within the Oval Office, or replace it with another US-UK symbol, and otherwise for Biden to have been the bigger man.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,745
    dixiedean said:

    Re diet. Lost 5 stones in 12 months 3 years ago.
    By eating proper meals so I was full. And thereby avoiding ALL snacks.
    And taking slightly more exercise.
    As the weight came off I was simply able to exercise more vigorously. Not for longer, just quicker.
    But that came after the snacks got the chop.

    I estimate that's 200 stone less of PB than this time last year.

    That's just a lot to take in or take off.
  • I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    Sorry CR. You know that you and I see eye to eye on many things but this is one where I am afraid you have gone way overboard.

    The President does not have to explain anything. Not one damn thing. It his his office, his seat of power and his right to decorate it any way he wants.

    There will be a very long list of people he might want to honour in his office - and I do accept that every picture, every sculpting is symbolic. But Churchill is just one of dozens - probably hundreds - of people worthy of being honoured with a place in the Oval Office and perhaps Biden just decided that it was time someone else got a bit of reverence.

    I very much fear I am going to be disappointed by the Biden presidency (although I am very open to being proved wrong on this, indeed a really do hope I am). But the fact he has moved out a bust to another room or even into storage does not bother me for one nano-second. Nor should it bother you.
    Of course he can. And I largely agree with you. But any astute politician will be aware of and attuned to the political implications of any of his actions, and how they can be perceived. Churchill is a deeply important symbol in US-UK relations - and this bust in particular, due to past controversy. We all know that.

    I think, on this, Biden could have reassured - but either chose not to or forgot not to. Either way, I think that tells us a little bit about his administration.
    It tells us not one single thing we didn't already know. We knew Biden wasn't going to be as friendly to the UK as, for example, Reagan or Bush were. He was Obama's VP so we can probably expect he will treat the UK in much the same way Obama did unless we do something to particularly impress or particularly annoy.

    But what Biden will do is do exactly what he thinks is best for America. That could in theory include everything from making us the most privileged partner in the world to dropping bombs on us. He won't do either of course but what he will do is what is best for the country he was elected to lead not what is best for the UK or any other country for that matter. That is why the bust is so meaningless. If it isn't clear to the UK what Biden thinks of us yet then it will become very clear when he starts talking to us or starts making decisions.

    That is all that matters.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281

    If you are going to replace Winston Churchill, it puts one hell of an onus on the person replacing him to justify their CV....

    "Okay, yes, I'll give you that. Obama won a Nobel Prize too.... How does he stack up on defeating evil empires though? He had a light sabre? As a kid? Well that seals it, sorry Winnie...."

    There's a selection board for busts?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961

    I appear to have accidentally logged on to weight watchers....

    C'mon, don't be shy, get on the scales.....

    Lardy arse.
  • I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    THAT is the bust that's got the neo-Little-Englanders so agitated?

    Man, it is UGLY certainly wouldn't want to have to look at it during working hours.

    Imagine Winston might feel; the same. After all, he got his wife to BURN his official portrait, not just send it to the cellar.
    It's not about the bust.

    Everyone knows it's not about the bust. The Americans, the British.. everyone.

    Let's not pretend it's just a bust. It's the message.
    You sound like one of those people who pulled down the Colston statue.
    I'm not the one moving or removing it.
    But you are getting exercised over it.

    Look at it this way, Biden received more votes than any person in American history, he's decided to take back control of the White House.

    But I'll ask you this question, if it a symbol fo the special relationship can you let me know where the bust of FDR is in 10/11 Downing Street. I've been to Downing Street a few times and didn't see it.

    To be honest, I'd be more worried if the UK/US intelligence partnership was changed, rather than this sodding bust.
    I'd be happy with such a bust of FDR.

    This has become an issue because Blair gifted it to Bush, and it was then removed. It was then restored again (with fanfare) and it has now been removed again, without explanation.

    I just know enough about the politics to know this will cause issues. It will be interesting to see how it develops over the coming days and weeks.

    The US embassy have already been sufficiently worried to put out a video about it (which doesn't really cut it in my mind)
    You're learning actions have consequences.

    https://twitter.com/brhodes/status/1315290197421039616

    The other thing is Boris Johnson's reckless playing with the Good Friday Agreement, one of the few things that genuinely unite the GOP and the Dems is keeping peace in Northern Ireland, of which the US takes its responsibility serious. I'm sure the 'Part Irish' Biden will remember that as well.

    https://theconversation.com/brexit-why-us-politicians-are-opposed-to-boris-johnsons-latest-move-145980
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281

    I appear to have accidentally logged on to weight watchers....


    Or Bustwatchers
  • I appear to have accidentally logged on to weight watchers....

    C'mon, don't be shy, get on the scales.....

    Lardy arse.
    FYI, I am just off to the pain cave for 50km on the Bike-ERG....
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,037
    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    And? You can either ignore the snub or make a big deal of it.

    And if you do the latter I suspect the next answer would be one you didn't want to hear.
    We all know it was a snub. Even you.

    The reason posters like you are hyperventilating about it is that you know I'm right but you don't want anything to intrude on Biden's honeymoon and the belief the sun shines out of his arse.

    Get used to it. The Wokeness of this administration is going to drive everything it does, and it will be off the scale.
    It looks to me that it is you that is hyperventilating. I couldn't care less how Biden decorates his office.
    I'm pointing out uncomfortable home truths.

    That's why I'm copping so much flak from people like you. We've already moved from "it's irrelevant" to "it's relevant but I couldn't care less" which is progress, I guess.

    In a few months you'll tacitly agree with me - without ever admitting you've changed your view - and will pretend you did so all along, and that the Boris and the UK deserved it.. with more to come.
  • I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    They don't "need" to do anything of the sort. I feel sorry for you that the office décor of a new president is causing you a slow-burn multi-day meltdown, but I do think a sharp word is needed now: GET SOME FUCKING PERSPECTIVE.
    No meltdown. I just see it for what it is. And so do you; it's just you don't mind, because politics.

    The reason the bust was moved is because Boris criticised, vociferously, Obama doing the same with the "part-Kenyan" jibe. Trump put it back (making it even worse). And Biden's team haven't forgotten it. In fact, it was regularly mentioned by their shadow team.

    Moving it was a message - to their own base and to Boris.

    Let's not pretend it wasn't.
    I'm truly baffled that you think anyone should care. Why does 45 putting it back matter to anyone? Why does Biden removing it even register on anyone's radar?
    I don't have to sit there and look at it, it's in a country thousands of miles away, in a building I'll never get into even if I cared to go there. It's a triple stack nothing burger with a duck egg topping. It's the biggest pile of who gives a shit I have ever seen.
    Right, so you agree it's a snub - it's just we shouldn't care.

    That's progress, I guess.
    No, YOU think it's a snub. Quite why you think I'm even partially agreeing with you is a little mystifying. Are you in the midst of a fever or something?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286
    In important news, Top of the Pops 1990 is about to start on BBC4.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    stodge said:

    dixiedean said:

    Re diet. Lost 5 stones in 12 months 3 years ago.
    By eating proper meals so I was full. And thereby avoiding ALL snacks.
    And taking slightly more exercise.
    As the weight came off I was simply able to exercise more vigorously. Not for longer, just quicker.
    But that came after the snacks got the chop.

    I estimate that's 200 stone less of PB than this time last year.

    That's just a lot to take in or take off.
    I am not sure I should be replying to this - avoiding @stodge is central to my weight loss plans.
  • I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    Sure, it was a statement wholly in response to Boris starting a culture war back and forth message, and being seen to attack the President of the USA in racist terms. Reminding us who is the boss. Live with it. Or better still drop the culture war nonsense and work with the USA when they need Western help to rebuild after the culture wars escalated out of all control over there.
    Oh, I can live with it - like you say, it's just a bust of a head in the Oval Office - but let's not pretend it's a snub.

    It was, and it is.

    My view is that will have an effect (however undetectable) on the quality of the Biden-Johnson relationship going forwards, and the undercurrents of domestic politics that underpins it on both sides of the pond.

    That's all. I'm just telling you how it is.
    Speaking as one of the base (hopefully in just one sense!) you reference, most are at least marginally PRO-Churchill; very few Americans of any political stripe see him other than a great hero; fewer in US than in UK know enough to be critical.

    As for Boris, most on this side of the Atlantic (and Pacific) are only barely aware of his existence. Which is per usual for us re: UK PMs. Exceptions are Thatcher (more for being first woman PM than her conservatism) and Blair (more for post-9/11 than as Labour leader) and of course Churchill.

    My guess is that Joe's decorating decision has more to do with decorating than decision-making. Specifically, wanting an office different from Trumpsky's visually as well as other ways.

    And it is NOT a slur against Churchill (who I am sure Biden admires) or the United Kingdom (ditto).

    Plus, Joe just ain't that kind of guy in general, or that petty in particular. Unlike You-Know-Who.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    And? You can either ignore the snub or make a big deal of it.

    And if you do the latter I suspect the next answer would be one you didn't want to hear.
    We all know it was a snub. Even you.

    The reason posters like you are hyperventilating about it is that you know I'm right but you don't want anything to intrude on Biden's honeymoon and the belief the sun shines out of his arse.

    Get used to it. The Wokeness of this administration is going to drive everything it does, and it will be off the scale.
    It looks to me that it is you that is hyperventilating. I couldn't care less how Biden decorates his office.
    I'm pointing out uncomfortable home truths.

    That's why I'm copping so much flak from people like you. We've already moved from "it's irrelevant" to "it's relevant but I couldn't care less" which is progress, I guess.

    In a few months you'll tacitly agree with me - without ever admitting you've changed your view - and will pretend you did so all along, and that the Boris and the UK deserved it.. with more to come.
    You really aren't, the only person you are arguing with is yourself. "The sun rises in the EAST, I tell you! Why do you persist in denying this?"
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    If you are going to replace Winston Churchill, it puts one hell of an onus on the person replacing him to justify their CV....

    "Okay, yes, I'll give you that. Obama won a Nobel Prize too.... How does he stack up on defeating evil empires though? He had a light sabre? As a kid? Well that seals it, sorry Winnie...."

    Stalin? Isoroku Yamamoto? I think you are getting very high on the Churchillian supply.
  • Foxy said:

    eek said:

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    And? You can either ignore the snub or make a big deal of it.

    And if you do the latter I suspect the next answer would be one you didn't want to hear.
    We all know it was a snub. Even you.

    The reason posters like you are hyperventilating about it is that you know I'm right but you don't want anything to intrude on Biden's honeymoon and the belief the sun shines out of his arse.

    Get used to it. The Wokeness of this administration is going to drive everything it does, and it will be off the scale.
    It looks to me that it is you that is hyperventilating. I couldn't care less how Biden decorates his office.
    I'm pointing out uncomfortable home truths.

    That's why I'm copping so much flak from people like you. We've already moved from "it's irrelevant" to "it's relevant but I couldn't care less" which is progress, I guess.

    In a few months you'll tacitly agree with me - without ever admitting you've changed your view - and will pretend you did so all along, and that the Boris and the UK deserved it.. with more to come.
    There is nothing to pretend and no need to wait a few months.

    It was ridiculous of Boris Johnson to criticise how another leader of a sovereign nation decorates his office. Even worse by doing it using a racist dog whistle.

    Biden is quite right to put him in his place and make it clear that is not acceptable behaviour.

This discussion has been closed.