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CNN reporting that McConnell is privately saying he wants Trump gone – politicalbetting.com

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  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    If you are going to replace Winston Churchill, it puts one hell of an onus on the person replacing him to justify their CV....

    "Okay, yes, I'll give you that. Obama won a Nobel Prize too.... How does he stack up on defeating evil empires though? He had a light sabre? As a kid? Well that seals it, sorry Winnie...."

    There's a selection board for busts?
    It's all a bit reminiscent of the heads-in-jars museum in Futurama.
  • I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    Sorry CR. You know that you and I see eye to eye on many things but this is one where I am afraid you have gone way overboard.

    The President does not have to explain anything. Not one damn thing. It his his office, his seat of power and his right to decorate it any way he wants.

    There will be a very long list of people he might want to honour in his office - and I do accept that every picture, every sculpting is symbolic. But Churchill is just one of dozens - probably hundreds - of people worthy of being honoured with a place in the Oval Office and perhaps Biden just decided that it was time someone else got a bit of reverence.

    I very much fear I am going to be disappointed by the Biden presidency (although I am very open to being proved wrong on this, indeed a really do hope I am). But the fact he has moved out a bust to another room or even into storage does not bother me for one nano-second. Nor should it bother you.
    And that's the point. Biden is less into the UK than we might like. That's his sovereign right, so to speak.
    The UK has roughly three strategies going forwards. One is to howl about the snub, like a dumped boyfriend. Another is to shrug our sholders and move on. The third is to privately reflect on why we might have been deprioritised.
    The UK needs to be careful not to develop a reputation for sulking when our allies don't give us exactly what we want.
    Spot on, if we are to make a Brexit a success, and we must try, it will involve skilfully developing positive relations with the US and the EU and understanding we are not calling the shots in either case. It is beyond the capability of Johnson and Raab.
  • I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    Sorry CR. You know that you and I see eye to eye on many things but this is one where I am afraid you have gone way overboard.

    The President does not have to explain anything. Not one damn thing. It his his office, his seat of power and his right to decorate it any way he wants.

    There will be a very long list of people he might want to honour in his office - and I do accept that every picture, every sculpting is symbolic. But Churchill is just one of dozens - probably hundreds - of people worthy of being honoured with a place in the Oval Office and perhaps Biden just decided that it was time someone else got a bit of reverence.

    I very much fear I am going to be disappointed by the Biden presidency (although I am very open to being proved wrong on this, indeed a really do hope I am). But the fact he has moved out a bust to another room or even into storage does not bother me for one nano-second. Nor should it bother you.
    And that's the point. Biden is less into the UK than we might like. That's his sovereign right, so to speak.
    The UK has roughly three strategies going forwards. One is to howl about the snub, like a dumped boyfriend. Another is to shrug our sholders and move on. The third is to privately reflect on why we might have been deprioritised.
    The UK needs to be careful not to develop a reputation for sulking when our allies don't give us exactly what we want.
    "The UK needs to be careful not to develop a reputation for sulking when our allies don't give us exactly what we want."

    Think that horse has already left the barn!

    Personally reckon that, IF yours truly was the UK personified (perish the thought!) I'd rather have a half-hour of Biden's consideration than a month of his immediate predecessor's.

    Because the former is MUCH more valuable than the latter.
  • GaussianGaussian Posts: 831

    Gaussian said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    I think the scientists are somewhat more willing to highlight the downsides and fears from the evidence than the upsides at this stage.

    New variant 10-50% more fatal? Most of the new variant patients have been treated in England's most crowded hospitals.

    Not sure R is getting below 1. It seems to be consistent everywhere, and the figures are by now reflecting, not only the post-Christmas lull, but 30% or so of the primary pupils staying back in in the New Year (albeit infection rates in this cohort are up from around 1.8 -> 2.1% in the ONS study and this subset could exponent.

    Could be locked down for a long time? Let's wait on the figures there. Especially with vaccination accelerating.

    The vaccine may not stop transmission? C'mon hasn't every vaccine in history disrupted transmission, else why are we now flu jabbing kids. And premature results from Israel? Let's wait.

    An abundance of caution going on here and medicine's first do no harm approach. We are hearing more of their fears than their hopes.

    AIU Boris tonight, and he's not always the clearest, if 1,000 60 year old's got the old virus 10 would die. If 1000 60 year old's get the new variant 13 would die. By my reckoning that is an increase in fatality of 0.3% or statistical noise as most of us would call it.
    It's 30% more bodies in coffins, which isn't statistical noise.
    Erm, how do I put this, unless you are one of the bodies in a coffin statistical noise is exactly what it is. The real problem with the new variant, and it is a massive problem which would have been totally catastrophic if we did not have working vaccines, is that it seems to be multiple times more infectious than the old. That is what has our health service hanging by a thread, not the tiny increase in mortality.
    A thirty percent increase in mortality rate isn't statistical noise.

    Both the increased R rate and the increased death rate matter. Plus I'm assuming if there's more deaths per case there's probably also more hospitalisations per case.
    Agreed, but as with the vaccines, the effect on the R rate multiplies week after week, while the effects on hospitalisations and deaths per case are one-off factors.
    As we've seen today, people who end up in hospital are much more likely to end up back in hospital.
    We really do need to get away from this naive binary of "you catch covid and then you either die or get better and then it's over."
    Is anyone actually saying that though? Does anyone think that?

    The simple truth is that for the vast majority of people Covid is a mild or even imperceptible illness.

    For an unfortunate minority, it’s horrible, with a nasty recovery process, which can rebound.

    And it kills some.

    None of these facts has changed, and I think most people are aware of them.
    I mean, the post I was directly responding to says
    "while the effects on hospitalisations and deaths per case are one-off factors"

    Hospitalisation is not a "one-off factor". You end up in hospital, you may end up in hospital multiple times. So yes, unless I've wildly misinterpreted what was meant then yes, some people are saying that.
    Say you've got 1000 cases a day, a hospitalisation rate of 10%, and you've got the epidemic just about under control at R=1.

    So you'll get 100 hospitalisations per day, ongoing.

    Now your hospitalisation rate gets 30% worse, taking it to 130 per day. That's bad, but unless your hospitals were on the edge already, they can probably cope with it.

    Now let's say infectivity goes up 30% instead, taking R to 1.3. You'll have 1300 cases a day after one week, 1690 after two, 2197 after three, 2856 after four, and so on. At 10% hospitalisation rate you're already up to 285 hospitalisations a day, and it's only going to get worse unless you increase restrictions to get R back down.

    I of course agree that repeat hospitalisations are a problem, but in epidemiological terms they're just another one-off multiplier on the original hospitalisations. If e.g. 25% have to go back, that eventually takes the 100 per day in the initial scenario up to 125.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    Need to explain to a minor ally how the President chooses to decorate his own office? Do you realise how mad that sounds?

    You are right about the importance of Johnson's "no uncertain terms" though. This is no longer primarily about Churchill or busts, it is about the petty, spiteful, illiberal racism of Johnson's words in 2009.
    Right, so you agree with me that it was a message then.

    Thank you.
    Yes. Of course it was. Why do think that anyone is denying that?

    The message being, racism doesn't pay. Good message in my view.
    I think it's prioritising trying to give Boris as the sitting PM (and others) a message about racism at the risk of damaging the sentiment and affection that underpins the special relationship. US diplomats will know very well how revered Churchill is here.

    I think the bigger thing to have done would have been to keep it or move it elsewhere within the Oval Office, or replace it with another US-UK symbol, and otherwise for Biden to have been the bigger man.
    You do realise there was an attempted coup built largely upon the birther movement that comments like Johnsons helped feed and grow?
  • I appear to have accidentally logged on to weight watchers....

    "Does my BUST look big in this?"
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,696

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    THAT is the bust that's got the neo-Little-Englanders so agitated?

    Man, it is UGLY certainly wouldn't want to have to look at it during working hours.

    Imagine Winston might feel; the same. After all, he got his wife to BURN his official portrait, not just send it to the cellar.
    It's not about the bust.

    Everyone knows it's not about the bust. The Americans, the British.. everyone.

    Let's not pretend it's just a bust. It's the message.
    You sound like one of those people who pulled down the Colston statue.
    I'm not the one moving or removing it.
    But you are getting exercised over it.

    Look at it this way, Biden received more votes than any person in American history, he's decided to take back control of the White House.

    But I'll ask you this question, if it a symbol fo the special relationship can you let me know where the bust of FDR is in 10/11 Downing Street. I've been to Downing Street a few times and didn't see it.

    To be honest, I'd be more worried if the UK/US intelligence partnership was changed, rather than this sodding bust.
    I'd be happy with such a bust of FDR.

    This has become an issue because Blair gifted it to Bush, and it was then removed. It was then restored again (with fanfare) and it has now been removed again, without explanation.

    I just know enough about the politics to know this will cause issues. It will be interesting to see how it develops over the coming days and weeks.

    The US embassy have already been sufficiently worried to put out a video about it (which doesn't really cut it in my mind)
    So what the bust really symbolises is not Churchill, but Blair's role as wingman to George W. Bush. Are you more nostalgic for the Blair era than you would like to admit?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914

    If you are going to replace Winston Churchill, it puts one hell of an onus on the person replacing him to justify their CV....

    "Okay, yes, I'll give you that. Obama won a Nobel Prize too.... How does he stack up on defeating evil empires though? He had a light sabre? As a kid? Well that seals it, sorry Winnie...."

    There's a selection board for busts?
    Certainly is. I did an ad for Berlei and did 60 polaroids and still they wanted a re-cast!
  • eekeek Posts: 28,398

    eek said:

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    And? You can either ignore the snub or make a big deal of it.

    And if you do the latter I suspect the next answer would be one you didn't want to hear.
    We all know it was a snub. Even you.

    The reason posters like you are hyperventilating about it is that you know I'm right but you don't want anything to intrude on Biden's honeymoon and the belief the sun shines out of his arse.

    Get used to it. The Wokeness of this administration is going to drive everything it does, and it will be off the scale.
    Actually I don't - the only reason it was put back there in 2016 was because of Trump's point scoring
  • I appear to have accidentally logged on to weight watchers....

    "Does my BUST look big in this?"
    I'm sure the Prime Minister will be happy to make time to check your bust.
  • I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    THAT is the bust that's got the neo-Little-Englanders so agitated?

    Man, it is UGLY certainly wouldn't want to have to look at it during working hours.

    Imagine Winston might feel; the same. After all, he got his wife to BURN his official portrait, not just send it to the cellar.
    It's not about the bust.

    Everyone knows it's not about the bust. The Americans, the British.. everyone.

    Let's not pretend it's just a bust. It's the message.
    You sound like one of those people who pulled down the Colston statue.
    I'm not the one moving or removing it.
    But you are getting exercised over it.

    Look at it this way, Biden received more votes than any person in American history, he's decided to take back control of the White House.

    But I'll ask you this question, if it a symbol fo the special relationship can you let me know where the bust of FDR is in 10/11 Downing Street. I've been to Downing Street a few times and didn't see it.

    To be honest, I'd be more worried if the UK/US intelligence partnership was changed, rather than this sodding bust.
    I'd be happy with such a bust of FDR.

    This has become an issue because Blair gifted it to Bush, and it was then removed. It was then restored again (with fanfare) and it has now been removed again, without explanation.

    I just know enough about the politics to know this will cause issues. It will be interesting to see how it develops over the coming days and weeks.

    The US embassy have already been sufficiently worried to put out a video about it (which doesn't really cut it in my mind)
    You're learning actions have consequences.

    https://twitter.com/brhodes/status/1315290197421039616

    The other thing is Boris Johnson's reckless playing with the Good Friday Agreement, one of the few things that genuinely unite the GOP and the Dems is keeping peace in Northern Ireland, of which the US takes its responsibility serious. I'm sure the 'Part Irish' Biden will remember that as well.

    https://theconversation.com/brexit-why-us-politicians-are-opposed-to-boris-johnsons-latest-move-145980
    Certainly Johnson has got som 'splainin' to do on THAT front.

    The Irish that's in 'em ensures Biden is personally engaged on British-Irish-Northern Irish relations, economic and otherwise. Which is anyway a major foreign policy concern for ANY semi-serious US president, regardless of ethnic heritage.

    And don't forget, Joe Biden knows he's also got some English way deep inside!
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    To try to make myself feel a little better, I'm going to attempt some optimism about 2021 and make a guess about what happens assuming that we don't get a vaccine-resistant SuperCovid that causes everything to go completely to shit.

    1. Long miserable slog through to April or May, i.e. until we get as far as lancing all the over 50s
    2. Primary schools then come back, some baby steps on people meeting outside their household, and gyms, hair and beauty reopen, followed by a 3-4 week gap to see what happens next
    3. Assuming that's OK, we get the non-essential shops and possibly venues like museums, art galleries and National Trust properties, where visitor numbers and movement can be carefully managed. That's it until about September, which is my best guess at when the rest of the adult population will have been jabbed. I suspect that the scientists will go mental if there's any suggestion of unshuttering hospitality. If that's the case then hopefully the Government will also show some common sense and drop its obsessions with getting secondary schools back and letting people go on foreign holidays as well
    4. We finally get the rest of education and whatever is left of hospitality back once the entire vaccination program is completed, along with a broader relaxation of rules on social gatherings. Sporting events and surviving theatres allowed to reopen but with substantially reduced crowds
    5. Widespread imposition of masks and social distancing rules continues until April 2022, when the Coronavirus Act is chucked in the dustbin and all the remaining restrictions go - however...
    6. Some elements of mask wearing and social distancing will probably be reintroduced between October and March every year for the rest of time, which will render all smaller hospitality premises apart from takeaways permanently uneconomic

    I'm non-committal on when I think foreign travel may resume - whether that comes back in September or we have to wait until next year. I think more likely the former, although some destinations like Australia might not want us back for a couple of years anyway.

    In summary, bloody awful but at least most of the bullshit ends eventually. That's about as sunny as my disposition gets nowadays.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,435
    Foxy said:

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    I see flag totemism has moved on. If you haven't got a bust of Winston on your desk then you must be a woke cultural Marxist.
    But yes, you have identified the reason. I don't remotely believe they moved the bust because they wanted to "snub Britain". I am sure Biden is sincere in his desire to rebuild alliances, including the Mother Ship, Blighty.

    But Winston Churchill is problematic for Woke people (as we saw in London). And Biden-Harris is the most Woke administration in US history. That't why Winston got the boot. No doubt he was replaced with some Black heroine from India.
  • Is this thred a bust?
  • I just cannot raise the effort to get upset at the re-siting of Winston Churchill's bust

    As someone who lay in his Mothers arms in Greater Manchester, under a steel table, as Hitler's v bombs roared overhead, one stopping directly above resulting in the death of six of our neighbours, I and the country owe a huge debt to Winston Churchill

    However, I do not see the location of his bust in the oval office a matter of any consequence to be fair in the overall scheme of things
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036

    Charles said:

    Thanks for tips on previous thread, all.

    I don't think I could cut out all alcohol right now. Life is too boring and the days are too short. Maybe I could shift to beer to wine, though.

    I like the low carbs in the evening. I need to think more about exercise.

    Calorie counting and weighing doesn't work for me. I obsess about food and weight and get obsessive/disllusioned too easily. And I'd rather die than just eat plants - I need a balanced diet where I can eat meat too. .

    I should probably cut out takeaways and processed food and get on the bike for at least an hour a day. And eat more eggs with meals for the long burn?

    I dropped breakfast, shifted to ham and cheese and fruit for lunch and a normal dinner. Have lost 35 lbs since September
    That's good going, well done. We cut out lunch, aided by the fact that, being retired, we can now eat dinner at 5 or even 4pm if we wish.
    You cut out dinner and had your tea at teatime.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,380

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    THAT is the bust that's got the neo-Little-Englanders so agitated?

    Man, it is UGLY certainly wouldn't want to have to look at it during working hours.

    Imagine Winston might feel; the same. After all, he got his wife to BURN his official portrait, not just send it to the cellar.
    It's not about the bust.

    Everyone knows it's not about the bust. The Americans, the British.. everyone.

    Let's not pretend it's just a bust. It's the message.
    You sound like one of those people who pulled down the Colston statue.
    I'm not the one moving or removing it.
    But you are getting exercised over it.

    Look at it this way, Biden received more votes than any person in American history, he's decided to take back control of the White House.

    But I'll ask you this question, if it a symbol fo the special relationship can you let me know where the bust of FDR is in 10/11 Downing Street. I've been to Downing Street a few times and didn't see it.

    To be honest, I'd be more worried if the UK/US intelligence partnership was changed, rather than this sodding bust.
    I'd be happy with such a bust of FDR.

    This has become an issue because Blair gifted it to Bush, and it was then removed. It was then restored again (with fanfare) and it has now been removed again, without explanation.

    I just know enough about the politics to know this will cause issues. It will be interesting to see how it develops over the coming days and weeks.

    The US embassy have already been sufficiently worried to put out a video about it (which doesn't really cut it in my mind)
    You're learning actions have consequences.

    https://twitter.com/brhodes/status/1315290197421039616

    The other thing is Boris Johnson's reckless playing with the Good Friday Agreement, one of the few things that genuinely unite the GOP and the Dems is keeping peace in Northern Ireland, of which the US takes its responsibility serious. I'm sure the 'Part Irish' Biden will remember that as well.

    https://theconversation.com/brexit-why-us-politicians-are-opposed-to-boris-johnsons-latest-move-145980
    Maybe the UK could placate Biden by sending a bust of Boris Johnson, for display in the Oval Office.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    They don't "need" to do anything of the sort. I feel sorry for you that the office décor of a new president is causing you a slow-burn multi-day meltdown, but I do think a sharp word is needed now: GET SOME FUCKING PERSPECTIVE.
    No meltdown. I just see it for what it is. And so do you; it's just you don't mind, because politics.

    The reason the bust was moved is because Boris criticised, vociferously, Obama doing the same with the "part-Kenyan" jibe. Trump put it back (making it even worse). And Biden's team haven't forgotten it. In fact, it was regularly mentioned by their shadow team.

    Moving it was a message - to their own base and to Boris.

    Let's not pretend it wasn't.
    I'm truly baffled that you think anyone should care. Why does 45 putting it back matter to anyone? Why does Biden removing it even register on anyone's radar?
    I don't have to sit there and look at it, it's in a country thousands of miles away, in a building I'll never get into even if I cared to go there. It's a triple stack nothing burger with a duck egg topping. It's the biggest pile of who gives a shit I have ever seen.
    Right, so you agree it's a snub - it's just we shouldn't care.

    That's progress, I guess.
    No, YOU think it's a snub. Quite why you think I'm even partially agreeing with you is a little mystifying. Are you in the midst of a fever or something?
    What I think of it is totally irrelevant. This will have implications, and on a betting site we should explore what those are.

    I won't be distracted from pointing out inconvenient truths by a few playground jibes.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,435

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    Sorry CR. You know that you and I see eye to eye on many things but this is one where I am afraid you have gone way overboard.

    The President does not have to explain anything. Not one damn thing. It his his office, his seat of power and his right to decorate it any way he wants.

    There will be a very long list of people he might want to honour in his office - and I do accept that every picture, every sculpting is symbolic. But Churchill is just one of dozens - probably hundreds - of people worthy of being honoured with a place in the Oval Office and perhaps Biden just decided that it was time someone else got a bit of reverence.

    I very much fear I am going to be disappointed by the Biden presidency (although I am very open to being proved wrong on this, indeed a really do hope I am). But the fact he has moved out a bust to another room or even into storage does not bother me for one nano-second. Nor should it bother you.
    And that's the point. Biden is less into the UK than we might like. That's his sovereign right, so to speak.
    The UK has roughly three strategies going forwards. One is to howl about the snub, like a dumped boyfriend. Another is to shrug our sholders and move on. The third is to privately reflect on why we might have been deprioritised.
    The UK needs to be careful not to develop a reputation for sulking when our allies don't give us exactly what we want.
    Conversely, America is ever-less important to us, as it slides into secondary status, behind China. An uncomfortable fact, but a fact.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487

    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    And? You can either ignore the snub or make a big deal of it.

    And if you do the latter I suspect the next answer would be one you didn't want to hear.
    We all know it was a snub. Even you.

    The reason posters like you are hyperventilating about it is that you know I'm right but you don't want anything to intrude on Biden's honeymoon and the belief the sun shines out of his arse.

    Get used to it. The Wokeness of this administration is going to drive everything it does, and it will be off the scale.
    It looks to me that it is you that is hyperventilating. I couldn't care less how Biden decorates his office.
    I'm pointing out uncomfortable home truths.

    That's why I'm copping so much flak from people like you. We've already moved from "it's irrelevant" to "it's relevant but I couldn't care less" which is progress, I guess.

    In a few months you'll tacitly agree with me - without ever admitting you've changed your view - and will pretend you did so all along, and that the Boris and the UK deserved it.. with more to come.
    There is nothing to pretend and no need to wait a few months.

    It was ridiculous of Boris Johnson to criticise how another leader of a sovereign nation decorates his office. Even worse by doing it using a racist dog whistle.

    Biden is quite right to put him in his place and make it clear that is not acceptable behaviour.

    I agree on Boris, and I didn't think the article was right at the time.

    But, the US *needs* the UK for its D10 and COP26 agenda - it isn't omnipotent anymore - and the quality of that relationship matters.

    This was a calculated act of pettiness by Biden. That tells us something about him.

    It remains to be seen if he corrects it or not.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    Vallance said that there is no evidence that the new variant results in higher levels of mortality among patients in hospital. Therefore it must also result in a 30% increase in hospitalization. Not good. Both in the short term and longer term health consequences.
  • Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    I see flag totemism has moved on. If you haven't got a bust of Winston on your desk then you must be a woke cultural Marxist.
    But yes, you have identified the reason. I don't remotely believe they moved the bust because they wanted to "snub Britain". I am sure Biden is sincere in his desire to rebuild alliances, including the Mother Ship, Blighty.

    But Winston Churchill is problematic for Woke people (as we saw in London). And Biden-Harris is the most Woke administration in US history. That't why Winston got the boot. No doubt he was replaced with some Black heroine from India.
    Whatever the degree of woke-ness now pervading the White House (and also Blair House, the VP's temporary residence) keep in mind that the degree of anti-Churchillian woke-ery is MUCH less on these shores than in his homeland.

    Though you may have point re: Black heroine.

    But do you think he'd mind ALL that much, in light of the last half century, being asked to yield his place on the bus to Rosa Parks?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    Sure, it was a statement wholly in response to Boris starting a culture war back and forth message, and being seen to attack the President of the USA in racist terms. Reminding us who is the boss. Live with it. Or better still drop the culture war nonsense and work with the USA when they need Western help to rebuild after the culture wars escalated out of all control over there.
    Oh, I can live with it - like you say, it's just a bust of a head in the Oval Office - but let's not pretend it's a snub.

    It was, and it is.

    My view is that will have an effect (however undetectable) on the quality of the Biden-Johnson relationship going forwards, and the undercurrents of domestic politics that underpins it on both sides of the pond.

    That's all. I'm just telling you how it is.
    Speaking as one of the base (hopefully in just one sense!) you reference, most are at least marginally PRO-Churchill; very few Americans of any political stripe see him other than a great hero; fewer in US than in UK know enough to be critical.

    As for Boris, most on this side of the Atlantic (and Pacific) are only barely aware of his existence. Which is per usual for us re: UK PMs. Exceptions are Thatcher (more for being first woman PM than her conservatism) and Blair (more for post-9/11 than as Labour leader) and of course Churchill.

    My guess is that Joe's decorating decision has more to do with decorating than decision-making. Specifically, wanting an office different from Trumpsky's visually as well as other ways.

    And it is NOT a slur against Churchill (who I am sure Biden admires) or the United Kingdom (ditto).

    Plus, Joe just ain't that kind of guy in general, or that petty in particular. Unlike You-Know-Who.
    Two credits Joe has against his name, in my mind: he supported us in the Falklands War, and he loves trains.

    But, all US politicians know the importance of Churchill in the US-UK relationship (I mean, he was half-American for God's sake).

    They just do.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    THAT is the bust that's got the neo-Little-Englanders so agitated?

    Man, it is UGLY certainly wouldn't want to have to look at it during working hours.

    Imagine Winston might feel; the same. After all, he got his wife to BURN his official portrait, not just send it to the cellar.
    It's not about the bust.

    Everyone knows it's not about the bust. The Americans, the British.. everyone.

    Let's not pretend it's just a bust. It's the message.
    You sound like one of those people who pulled down the Colston statue.
    I'm not the one moving or removing it.
    But you are getting exercised over it.

    Look at it this way, Biden received more votes than any person in American history, he's decided to take back control of the White House.

    But I'll ask you this question, if it a symbol fo the special relationship can you let me know where the bust of FDR is in 10/11 Downing Street. I've been to Downing Street a few times and didn't see it.

    To be honest, I'd be more worried if the UK/US intelligence partnership was changed, rather than this sodding bust.
    I'd be happy with such a bust of FDR.

    This has become an issue because Blair gifted it to Bush, and it was then removed. It was then restored again (with fanfare) and it has now been removed again, without explanation.

    I just know enough about the politics to know this will cause issues. It will be interesting to see how it develops over the coming days and weeks.

    The US embassy have already been sufficiently worried to put out a video about it (which doesn't really cut it in my mind)
    You're learning actions have consequences.

    https://twitter.com/brhodes/status/1315290197421039616

    The other thing is Boris Johnson's reckless playing with the Good Friday Agreement, one of the few things that genuinely unite the GOP and the Dems is keeping peace in Northern Ireland, of which the US takes its responsibility serious. I'm sure the 'Part Irish' Biden will remember that as well.

    https://theconversation.com/brexit-why-us-politicians-are-opposed-to-boris-johnsons-latest-move-145980
    We're agreeing with each other.

    Good. I just think that shows pettiness by Biden. It's an undiplomatic move.

    1-1 so far. He called Boris first after the election, and now this.

    Maybe we'll get a definitive tiebreaker soon... dunno.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,866
    Maybe it's just me but I have to say I'm unbothered by Biden moving the Churchill bust out of the Oval office. What matters to me is what Biden does wrt to China and whether he is able to build an alliance around taking them on and how much he values us as a long term friend and most reliable ally. Obama didn't, Trump was untrustworthy and Blair was just Bush's bumlicker. What I want to see is Biden and Boris recognising that the world is a much more hostile place for both nations and that the special relationship is the foundation on which both of our countries can build a global alliance to take on those hostile nations.
  • I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    THAT is the bust that's got the neo-Little-Englanders so agitated?

    Man, it is UGLY certainly wouldn't want to have to look at it during working hours.

    Imagine Winston might feel; the same. After all, he got his wife to BURN his official portrait, not just send it to the cellar.
    It's not about the bust.

    Everyone knows it's not about the bust. The Americans, the British.. everyone.

    Let's not pretend it's just a bust. It's the message.
    You sound like one of those people who pulled down the Colston statue.
    I'm not the one moving or removing it.
    But you are getting exercised over it.

    Look at it this way, Biden received more votes than any person in American history, he's decided to take back control of the White House.

    But I'll ask you this question, if it a symbol fo the special relationship can you let me know where the bust of FDR is in 10/11 Downing Street. I've been to Downing Street a few times and didn't see it.

    To be honest, I'd be more worried if the UK/US intelligence partnership was changed, rather than this sodding bust.
    I'd be happy with such a bust of FDR.

    This has become an issue because Blair gifted it to Bush, and it was then removed. It was then restored again (with fanfare) and it has now been removed again, without explanation.

    I just know enough about the politics to know this will cause issues. It will be interesting to see how it develops over the coming days and weeks.

    The US embassy have already been sufficiently worried to put out a video about it (which doesn't really cut it in my mind)
    You're learning actions have consequences.

    https://twitter.com/brhodes/status/1315290197421039616

    The other thing is Boris Johnson's reckless playing with the Good Friday Agreement, one of the few things that genuinely unite the GOP and the Dems is keeping peace in Northern Ireland, of which the US takes its responsibility serious. I'm sure the 'Part Irish' Biden will remember that as well.

    https://theconversation.com/brexit-why-us-politicians-are-opposed-to-boris-johnsons-latest-move-145980
    Maybe the UK could placate Biden by sending a bust of Boris Johnson, for display in the Oval Office.
    Now that would be a calculated insult!
  • I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    THAT is the bust that's got the neo-Little-Englanders so agitated?

    Man, it is UGLY certainly wouldn't want to have to look at it during working hours.

    Imagine Winston might feel; the same. After all, he got his wife to BURN his official portrait, not just send it to the cellar.
    It's not about the bust.

    Everyone knows it's not about the bust. The Americans, the British.. everyone.

    Let's not pretend it's just a bust. It's the message.
    You sound like one of those people who pulled down the Colston statue.
    I'm not the one moving or removing it.
    But you are getting exercised over it.

    Look at it this way, Biden received more votes than any person in American history, he's decided to take back control of the White House.

    But I'll ask you this question, if it a symbol fo the special relationship can you let me know where the bust of FDR is in 10/11 Downing Street. I've been to Downing Street a few times and didn't see it.

    To be honest, I'd be more worried if the UK/US intelligence partnership was changed, rather than this sodding bust.
    I'd be happy with such a bust of FDR.

    This has become an issue because Blair gifted it to Bush, and it was then removed. It was then restored again (with fanfare) and it has now been removed again, without explanation.

    I just know enough about the politics to know this will cause issues. It will be interesting to see how it develops over the coming days and weeks.

    The US embassy have already been sufficiently worried to put out a video about it (which doesn't really cut it in my mind)
    You're learning actions have consequences.

    https://twitter.com/brhodes/status/1315290197421039616

    The other thing is Boris Johnson's reckless playing with the Good Friday Agreement, one of the few things that genuinely unite the GOP and the Dems is keeping peace in Northern Ireland, of which the US takes its responsibility serious. I'm sure the 'Part Irish' Biden will remember that as well.

    https://theconversation.com/brexit-why-us-politicians-are-opposed-to-boris-johnsons-latest-move-145980
    Maybe the UK could placate Biden by sending a bust of Boris Johnson, for display in the Oval Office.
    Sounds like a win-win for Britain:
    1) you send it to US as a "gift"; and
    2) you do NOT have to look at it.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,551
    edited January 2021

    I'm sorry that Matt cartoon is rubbish.

    A kid using a landline? I mean really? They'd be on a mobile.
    Part of Matt's genius is that he is absolutely on the button with his take on events right now while depicting a world full of images recognisable from about 30-40 years ago. I think his DT readership find it quite congenial.

  • Charles said:

    Thanks for tips on previous thread, all.

    I don't think I could cut out all alcohol right now. Life is too boring and the days are too short. Maybe I could shift to beer to wine, though.

    I like the low carbs in the evening. I need to think more about exercise.

    Calorie counting and weighing doesn't work for me. I obsess about food and weight and get obsessive/disllusioned too easily. And I'd rather die than just eat plants - I need a balanced diet where I can eat meat too. .

    I should probably cut out takeaways and processed food and get on the bike for at least an hour a day. And eat more eggs with meals for the long burn?

    I dropped breakfast, shifted to ham and cheese and fruit for lunch and a normal dinner. Have lost 35 lbs since September
    That's good going, well done. We cut out lunch, aided by the fact that, being retired, we can now eat dinner at 5 or even 4pm if we wish.
    You cut out dinner and had your tea at teatime.
    I regularly keep my weight in check but am not doing well post Christmas, but spring is on its way

    However, I lost 14kgs last spring.

    I cut out all bread, biscuits, chocolate, fizze drinks, had a weetabix blueberry breakfast, cheese and biscuits lunch, and one course evening meal. Absolutely no eating or snacking between meals nor anything, other than tea or water, after my evening meal to breakfast
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,435

    To try to make myself feel a little better, I'm going to attempt some optimism about 2021 and make a guess about what happens assuming that we don't get a vaccine-resistant SuperCovid that causes everything to go completely to shit.

    1. Long miserable slog through to April or May, i.e. until we get as far as lancing all the over 50s
    2. Primary schools then come back, some baby steps on people meeting outside their household, and gyms, hair and beauty reopen, followed by a 3-4 week gap to see what happens next
    3. Assuming that's OK, we get the non-essential shops and possibly venues like museums, art galleries and National Trust properties, where visitor numbers and movement can be carefully managed. That's it until about September, which is my best guess at when the rest of the adult population will have been jabbed. I suspect that the scientists will go mental if there's any suggestion of unshuttering hospitality. If that's the case then hopefully the Government will also show some common sense and drop its obsessions with getting secondary schools back and letting people go on foreign holidays as well
    4. We finally get the rest of education and whatever is left of hospitality back once the entire vaccination program is completed, along with a broader relaxation of rules on social gatherings. Sporting events and surviving theatres allowed to reopen but with substantially reduced crowds
    5. Widespread imposition of masks and social distancing rules continues until April 2022, when the Coronavirus Act is chucked in the dustbin and all the remaining restrictions go - however...
    6. Some elements of mask wearing and social distancing will probably be reintroduced between October and March every year for the rest of time, which will render all smaller hospitality premises apart from takeaways permanently uneconomic

    I'm non-committal on when I think foreign travel may resume - whether that comes back in September or we have to wait until next year. I think more likely the former, although some destinations like Australia might not want us back for a couple of years anyway.

    In summary, bloody awful but at least most of the bullshit ends eventually. That's about as sunny as my disposition gets nowadays.

    lol. That's pretty grim, but you might be right.

    There is a reasonable worst case scenario now, that the virus continues to mutate beyond our ability to vaccinate against it, and civilised life as we know it simply ends.

    HOWEVER, in that scenario, I believe we would adapt in a year or two, by simply factoring in a much higher risk of death, disease, disablement. We would go back to a world pre-antibiotics, where a humble infection could easily kill you, and we'd shrug and accept this, and go back to what we were. Sex, love, society would assume their rightful priority in our lives. A few would cower away: that would be their choice.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,435
    edited January 2021
    MaxPB said:

    Maybe it's just me but I have to say I'm unbothered by Biden moving the Churchill bust out of the Oval office. What matters to me is what Biden does wrt to China and whether he is able to build an alliance around taking them on and how much he values us as a long term friend and most reliable ally. Obama didn't, Trump was untrustworthy and Blair was just Bush's bumlicker. What I want to see is Biden and Boris recognising that the world is a much more hostile place for both nations and that the special relationship is the foundation on which both of our countries can build a global alliance to take on those hostile nations.

    Yes, quite right. Fuck the bust, who cares, if it annoys the Yankee Woquemadas. let us just shrug. We have been around, as a nation, about 1000 years longer than America, and we will probably last that much longer, as well, judging by recent events.

    What both countries need to realise is that they are both diminished - as is the entire West - vis-a-vis Asia. So they have to unify. Just as the EU needs Germany and France to act together, so does the NATO/Western alliance need the US and the UK in concert (along with Oz, NZ and Canada, maybe SA). The Anglosphere is a powerful thing, united. Big enough to face down Beijing.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    I see flag totemism has moved on. If you haven't got a bust of Winston on your desk then you must be a woke cultural Marxist.
    But yes, you have identified the reason. I don't remotely believe they moved the bust because they wanted to "snub Britain". I am sure Biden is sincere in his desire to rebuild alliances, including the Mother Ship, Blighty.

    But Winston Churchill is problematic for Woke people (as we saw in London). And Biden-Harris is the most Woke administration in US history. That't why Winston got the boot. No doubt he was replaced with some Black heroine from India.
    Biden has called Johnson a “physical and emotional clone” of Donald Trump. There's a well-sourced but obv anonymous quote of someone "familiar with the matter" saying "if you think Biden hates Johnson you should hear Kamala." Kamala is very close to Obama. I think there's enough personalities involved to call this a snub.

    Plus Churchill was a great man but first and foremost a great myth maker. The myths were for home consumption and have never had the resonance anywhere overseas that the British expect them to have. While Churchill was having his Finest Hour the US was focused on Japan as the enemy, ambivalent about the Germans and thought WSC was a drunk.
  • Just out of curiosity, is there a bust of Franklin Roosevelt in the Prime Minister's office. Surely at some point, but now?

    Think FDR is to UK, what WSC is to US: a VERY positive figure, greatly admired, with MUCH less criticism than at home.
  • Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    I see flag totemism has moved on. If you haven't got a bust of Winston on your desk then you must be a woke cultural Marxist.
    But yes, you have identified the reason. I don't remotely believe they moved the bust because they wanted to "snub Britain". I am sure Biden is sincere in his desire to rebuild alliances, including the Mother Ship, Blighty.

    But Winston Churchill is problematic for Woke people (as we saw in London). And Biden-Harris is the most Woke administration in US history. That't why Winston got the boot. No doubt he was replaced with some Black heroine from India.
    Looks like @RealDonaldTrump has hijacked @Leon's as well as @Casino_Royale's accounts :lol:
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    BTW, welcome to Obama's third term.
  • AstraZeneca will cut deliveries of the Oxford COVID-19 vaccine to the European Union by 60% in the first quarter of the year, according to Reuters news agency.

    The company was expected to deliver around 80 million doses to the 27 EU countries by the end of March, an EU official told the agency.

    However, it now expects that to be cut to 31 million doses due to "production problems" at a vaccine factory in Belgium run by its partner Novasep.

    "Initial volumes will be lower than originally anticipated due to reduced yields at a manufacturing site within our European supply chain," a company spokesman said in a written statement.

    The EU Commission said AstraZeneca had informed its vaccination steering board of a change of its delivery schedule and that the Commission was working to find out more.


    The immunisation campaign has already been hampered by a temporary shortfall in the supply chain of vaccine developers Pfizer and BioNTech, who are retooling a site in Belgium to boost output.

    Earlier the Financial Times reported that supplies to the UK would not be affected.


    https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-astrazeneca-to-cut-covid-19-vaccine-delivery-to-eu-by-60-reports-12195923
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,028
    AstraZeneca is to cut vaccine supplies to EU member states by 60%, to 31 million doses, in the first quarter of 2021

    Via @Reuters

  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478

    Just out of curiosity, is there a bust of Franklin Roosevelt in the Prime Minister's office. Surely at some point, but now?

    Think FDR is to UK, what WSC is to US: a VERY positive figure, greatly admired, with MUCH less criticism than at home.

    Three quarters of that pair was American.
    My grandad farmed in Pennsylvania during the depression: he wouldn't hear a word against FDR.
  • Just out of curiosity, is there a bust of Franklin Roosevelt in the Prime Minister's office. Surely at some point, but now?

    Think FDR is to UK, what WSC is to US: a VERY positive figure, greatly admired, with MUCH less criticism than at home.

    Abraham Lincoln is outside Parliament, if he counts.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,435
    edited January 2021
    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    I see flag totemism has moved on. If you haven't got a bust of Winston on your desk then you must be a woke cultural Marxist.
    But yes, you have identified the reason. I don't remotely believe they moved the bust because they wanted to "snub Britain". I am sure Biden is sincere in his desire to rebuild alliances, including the Mother Ship, Blighty.

    But Winston Churchill is problematic for Woke people (as we saw in London). And Biden-Harris is the most Woke administration in US history. That't why Winston got the boot. No doubt he was replaced with some Black heroine from India.
    Biden has called Johnson a “physical and emotional clone” of Donald Trump. There's a well-sourced but obv anonymous quote of someone "familiar with the matter" saying "if you think Biden hates Johnson you should hear Kamala." Kamala is very close to Obama. I think there's enough personalities involved to call this a snub.

    Plus Churchill was a great man but first and foremost a great myth maker. The myths were for home consumption and have never had the resonance anywhere overseas that the British expect them to have. While Churchill was having his Finest Hour the US was focused on Japan as the enemy, ambivalent about the Germans and thought WSC was a drunk.
    Not sure that's true. All the intelligent Americans I know (admittedly older, more educated, than average) revere Churchill. Watch the West Wing: Churchill is several times referenced as the ultimate leader, like Lincoln.

    And the West Wing is very New York liberal.

    What has changed is the advance of Wokeness. I can well believe Kamala Harris (super-Woke) loathes what Churchill represents- the British Empire! White Patriarchy! - removing his bust would be an obvious move. If it, by the by, annoys or discomfits Boris, who cares. He's non-Woke. No drama

    I still don't see it as a direct snub of the UK. I also don't care. Fuck America. A mad place with awful cheese.
  • Just out of curiosity, is there a bust of Franklin Roosevelt in the Prime Minister's office. Surely at some point, but now?

    Think FDR is to UK, what WSC is to US: a VERY positive figure, greatly admired, with MUCH less criticism than at home.

    There is no bust of FDR in the PM's office.

    As our site's resident American just how badly will Biden lose the 2024 election because he removed Churchill's bust?

    GOP gain California?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,866

    AstraZeneca will cut deliveries of the Oxford COVID-19 vaccine to the European Union by 60% in the first quarter of the year, according to Reuters news agency.

    The company was expected to deliver around 80 million doses to the 27 EU countries by the end of March, an EU official told the agency.

    However, it now expects that to be cut to 31 million doses due to "production problems" at a vaccine factory in Belgium run by its partner Novasep.

    "Initial volumes will be lower than originally anticipated due to reduced yields at a manufacturing site within our European supply chain," a company spokesman said in a written statement.

    The EU Commission said AstraZeneca had informed its vaccination steering board of a change of its delivery schedule and that the Commission was working to find out more.


    The immunisation campaign has already been hampered by a temporary shortfall in the supply chain of vaccine developers Pfizer and BioNTech, who are retooling a site in Belgium to boost output.

    Earlier the Financial Times reported that supplies to the UK would not be affected.


    https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-astrazeneca-to-cut-covid-19-vaccine-delivery-to-eu-by-60-reports-12195923

    Thank heavens for our domestic manufacturing subsidies.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,600
    edited January 2021

    Just out of curiosity, is there a bust of Franklin Roosevelt in the Prime Minister's office. Surely at some point, but now?

    Think FDR is to UK, what WSC is to US: a VERY positive figure, greatly admired, with MUCH less criticism than at home.

    There is no bust of FDR in the PM's office.

    As our site's resident American just how badly will Biden lose the 2024 election because he removed Churchill's bust?

    GOP gain California?
    DC, nailed on.....
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,881
    Foxy said:

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    I see flag totemism has moved on. If you haven't got a bust of Winston on your desk then you must be a woke cultural Marxist.
    Where do a model of Thunderbird 2 and a stuffed echidna souvenir ex Adelaide place me?
  • I just cannot raise the effort to get upset at the re-siting of Winston Churchill's bust

    As someone who lay in his Mothers arms in Greater Manchester, under a steel table, as Hitler's v bombs roared overhead, one stopping directly above resulting in the death of six of our neighbours, I and the country owe a huge debt to Winston Churchill

    However, I do not see the location of his bust in the oval office a matter of any consequence to be fair in the overall scheme of things

    Personally am glad that there is no one looking over MY shoulder when I rearrange the brick-a-brac in my (approximately square) office.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,881

    Have we heard anymore, from the eminent historian and Spectator hack, who said that sign-language interpretation of the Pledge of Allegiance at President Biden's inaugural was "tik-tock political correctness"

    Rare instance of the deaf being mocked by the dumb and blind.

    I do think that that is very, very nasty. I did think that earlier but managed to keep quiet. A mistake on reflection. I have a close deaf relative and it hurts to see shite like that from the fucking right wing who are so fucking desperate to sneer at anything they can if it isn't belonging to their fucking hero Trump.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,209
    eek said:

    This I suspect is going to be one of the big US stories the t I'm surprised o one has mentioned yet
    https://twitter.com/POTUS/status/1352684958754734081

    Side step the Supreme court by making it law

    Congress only has the ability to regulate interstate commerce (albeit very broadly defined), so it cannot be legislated on at the Federal level.
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    I'm sure McConnell is doing his calculations. I guess he wants to stabilize the Republicans and that's gonna be tricky.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,866
    rcs1000 said:

    eek said:

    This I suspect is going to be one of the big US stories the t I'm surprised o one has mentioned yet
    https://twitter.com/POTUS/status/1352684958754734081

    Side step the Supreme court by making it law

    Congress only has the ability to regulate interstate commerce (albeit very broadly defined), so it cannot be legislated on at the Federal level.
    Constitutional amendment?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    MaxPB said:

    AstraZeneca will cut deliveries of the Oxford COVID-19 vaccine to the European Union by 60% in the first quarter of the year, according to Reuters news agency.

    The company was expected to deliver around 80 million doses to the 27 EU countries by the end of March, an EU official told the agency.

    However, it now expects that to be cut to 31 million doses due to "production problems" at a vaccine factory in Belgium run by its partner Novasep.

    "Initial volumes will be lower than originally anticipated due to reduced yields at a manufacturing site within our European supply chain," a company spokesman said in a written statement.

    The EU Commission said AstraZeneca had informed its vaccination steering board of a change of its delivery schedule and that the Commission was working to find out more.


    The immunisation campaign has already been hampered by a temporary shortfall in the supply chain of vaccine developers Pfizer and BioNTech, who are retooling a site in Belgium to boost output.

    Earlier the Financial Times reported that supplies to the UK would not be affected.


    https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-astrazeneca-to-cut-covid-19-vaccine-delivery-to-eu-by-60-reports-12195923

    Thank heavens for our domestic manufacturing subsidies.
    *buffs nails*
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,881

    I just cannot raise the effort to get upset at the re-siting of Winston Churchill's bust

    As someone who lay in his Mothers arms in Greater Manchester, under a steel table, as Hitler's v bombs roared overhead, one stopping directly above resulting in the death of six of our neighbours, I and the country owe a huge debt to Winston Churchill

    However, I do not see the location of his bust in the oval office a matter of any consequence to be fair in the overall scheme of things

    Personally am glad that there is no one looking over MY shoulder when I rearrange the brick-a-brac in my (approximately square) office.
    What is so amazing about BigG's story about the Morrison shelter is how few V-1s actually landed on Greater Manchester - how unlucky those neighbours were.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,665
    edited January 2021
    MaxPB said:

    AstraZeneca will cut deliveries of the Oxford COVID-19 vaccine to the European Union by 60% in the first quarter of the year, according to Reuters news agency.

    The company was expected to deliver around 80 million doses to the 27 EU countries by the end of March, an EU official told the agency.

    However, it now expects that to be cut to 31 million doses due to "production problems" at a vaccine factory in Belgium run by its partner Novasep.

    "Initial volumes will be lower than originally anticipated due to reduced yields at a manufacturing site within our European supply chain," a company spokesman said in a written statement.

    The EU Commission said AstraZeneca had informed its vaccination steering board of a change of its delivery schedule and that the Commission was working to find out more.


    The immunisation campaign has already been hampered by a temporary shortfall in the supply chain of vaccine developers Pfizer and BioNTech, who are retooling a site in Belgium to boost output.

    Earlier the Financial Times reported that supplies to the UK would not be affected.


    https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-astrazeneca-to-cut-covid-19-vaccine-delivery-to-eu-by-60-reports-12195923

    Thank heavens for our domestic manufacturing subsidies.
    Thoughts and prayers for that, I think American, tweeter who tweets some very misleading stats about the vaccine rollout.
  • Toms said:

    Just out of curiosity, is there a bust of Franklin Roosevelt in the Prime Minister's office. Surely at some point, but now?

    Think FDR is to UK, what WSC is to US: a VERY positive figure, greatly admired, with MUCH less criticism than at home.

    Three quarters of that pair was American.
    My grandad farmed in Pennsylvania during the depression: he wouldn't hear a word against FDR.
    My pop-pop was a plant guard in PA, a farmer's son, and he wouldn't hear a word FOR Franklin "Goddam" Roosevelt.

    Didn't stop his from winning the Keystone State three times, and the United State four times. BUT was NOT unanimous.
  • Leon said:

    No doubt he was replaced with some Black heroine from India.

    Thank you for revealing your hatred of Black and Indian people.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,435
    @Casino_Royale

    If you want to get super fit and healthy, you need to do HIIT. High Intensity Interval Training.

    I've had mega-fit friends enthusing about it for years, but I always dismissed them, until the latest lockdown, when my beloved gym closed (possibly for good). so I thought: feck it, try it.

    My god, it is amazing. Thirty minutes of sporadic but super intense exercise: you sweat and you strain, but it is just 30 minutes, with plenty of breaks. At the end you get a massive endorphin high (often I sing with elation in the post-workout shower). You burn zillions of calories. Your body tingles with health. I am not joking. It is superb.

    Here's one video I have used. Do it daily. I do it around 6pm. After you've watched it and done it for 5 or 6 times you can turn the sound down and watch good TV as you do the intense exercise. Win win win

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR4X4XwlA_c

    All you need is about 3 metres of space and a yoga mat (if that). You look like an idiot as you do it, but who cares. The buzz is phenomenal.

    I will not be rejoining a gym. It is pointless. I can do THIS at home and it is much better and I save ££££

    (Go short gym shares)
  • Just out of curiosity, is there a bust of Franklin Roosevelt in the Prime Minister's office. Surely at some point, but now?

    Think FDR is to UK, what WSC is to US: a VERY positive figure, greatly admired, with MUCH less criticism than at home.

    Abraham Lincoln is outside Parliament, if he counts.
    Not exactly the PM's office though!
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Leon said:

    To try to make myself feel a little better, I'm going to attempt some optimism about 2021 and make a guess about what happens assuming that we don't get a vaccine-resistant SuperCovid that causes everything to go completely to shit.

    1. Long miserable slog through to April or May, i.e. until we get as far as lancing all the over 50s
    2. Primary schools then come back, some baby steps on people meeting outside their household, and gyms, hair and beauty reopen, followed by a 3-4 week gap to see what happens next
    3. Assuming that's OK, we get the non-essential shops and possibly venues like museums, art galleries and National Trust properties, where visitor numbers and movement can be carefully managed. That's it until about September, which is my best guess at when the rest of the adult population will have been jabbed. I suspect that the scientists will go mental if there's any suggestion of unshuttering hospitality. If that's the case then hopefully the Government will also show some common sense and drop its obsessions with getting secondary schools back and letting people go on foreign holidays as well
    4. We finally get the rest of education and whatever is left of hospitality back once the entire vaccination program is completed, along with a broader relaxation of rules on social gatherings. Sporting events and surviving theatres allowed to reopen but with substantially reduced crowds
    5. Widespread imposition of masks and social distancing rules continues until April 2022, when the Coronavirus Act is chucked in the dustbin and all the remaining restrictions go - however...
    6. Some elements of mask wearing and social distancing will probably be reintroduced between October and March every year for the rest of time, which will render all smaller hospitality premises apart from takeaways permanently uneconomic

    I'm non-committal on when I think foreign travel may resume - whether that comes back in September or we have to wait until next year. I think more likely the former, although some destinations like Australia might not want us back for a couple of years anyway.

    In summary, bloody awful but at least most of the bullshit ends eventually. That's about as sunny as my disposition gets nowadays.

    lol. That's pretty grim, but you might be right.

    There is a reasonable worst case scenario now, that the virus continues to mutate beyond our ability to vaccinate against it, and civilised life as we know it simply ends.

    HOWEVER, in that scenario, I believe we would adapt in a year or two, by simply factoring in a much higher risk of death, disease, disablement. We would go back to a world pre-antibiotics, where a humble infection could easily kill you, and we'd shrug and accept this, and go back to what we were. Sex, love, society would assume their rightful priority in our lives. A few would cower away: that would be their choice.
    Antibiotic resistance might stuff us up that badly in the end. I don't think it likely that coronavirus will, although given how dreadfully this has gone so far I do worry that we may get unlucky and have to deal with the kind of mutation disaster you describe at least once before we properly put a lid on it. I'm trying hard not to contemplate that, but it really does worry me that this may drag on for a very long time.

    I'm also afraid that the combination of Covid and flu might be used to try to force us into wearing gags for six months of every year in perpetuity, and to that extent we may never be properly rid of the consequences of this evil event.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,866

    MaxPB said:

    AstraZeneca will cut deliveries of the Oxford COVID-19 vaccine to the European Union by 60% in the first quarter of the year, according to Reuters news agency.

    The company was expected to deliver around 80 million doses to the 27 EU countries by the end of March, an EU official told the agency.

    However, it now expects that to be cut to 31 million doses due to "production problems" at a vaccine factory in Belgium run by its partner Novasep.

    "Initial volumes will be lower than originally anticipated due to reduced yields at a manufacturing site within our European supply chain," a company spokesman said in a written statement.

    The EU Commission said AstraZeneca had informed its vaccination steering board of a change of its delivery schedule and that the Commission was working to find out more.


    The immunisation campaign has already been hampered by a temporary shortfall in the supply chain of vaccine developers Pfizer and BioNTech, who are retooling a site in Belgium to boost output.

    Earlier the Financial Times reported that supplies to the UK would not be affected.


    https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-astrazeneca-to-cut-covid-19-vaccine-delivery-to-eu-by-60-reports-12195923

    Thank heavens for our domestic manufacturing subsidies.
    Thoughts and prayers for that, I think American, tweeter who tweets some very misleading stats about the vaccine rollout.
    Even if the EMA approve it that's only 1.2m doses per country so far, a basically nothing amount. The EU has got no luck at all in this.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,421
    I think that, in the normal course of events, busts will come and go and it's the busts that come which are more notable than the ones that go. As soon as Johnson decided to make politics of the decision to remove the Churchill bust, compounded by Trump doing likewise, it was inevitable that it would not remain in the Oval Office under a Democrat President. To keep it would be to endorse the racism directed towards Obama.

    The mistake was not that Obama removed it, but that Johnson made an issue of it solely to take a dig at a President he opposed.

    It's the lamest snowflake behaviour to be so insecure that one might think it matters.
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    AstraZeneca will cut deliveries of the Oxford COVID-19 vaccine to the European Union by 60% in the first quarter of the year, according to Reuters news agency.

    The company was expected to deliver around 80 million doses to the 27 EU countries by the end of March, an EU official told the agency.

    However, it now expects that to be cut to 31 million doses due to "production problems" at a vaccine factory in Belgium run by its partner Novasep.

    "Initial volumes will be lower than originally anticipated due to reduced yields at a manufacturing site within our European supply chain," a company spokesman said in a written statement.

    The EU Commission said AstraZeneca had informed its vaccination steering board of a change of its delivery schedule and that the Commission was working to find out more.


    The immunisation campaign has already been hampered by a temporary shortfall in the supply chain of vaccine developers Pfizer and BioNTech, who are retooling a site in Belgium to boost output.

    Earlier the Financial Times reported that supplies to the UK would not be affected.


    https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-astrazeneca-to-cut-covid-19-vaccine-delivery-to-eu-by-60-reports-12195923

    Thank heavens for our domestic manufacturing subsidies.
    Thoughts and prayers for that, I think American, tweeter who tweets some very misleading stats about the vaccine rollout.
    Even if the EMA approve it that's only 1.2m doses per country so far, a basically nothing amount. The EU has got no luck at all in this.
    See if Boris Johnson had extended the transition phase by six months then we would have held all the cards in the negotiations and gotten an awesome deal.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    IshmaelZ said:

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    Need to explain to a minor ally how the President chooses to decorate his own office? Do you realise how mad that sounds?

    You are right about the importance of Johnson's "no uncertain terms" though. This is no longer primarily about Churchill or busts, it is about the petty, spiteful, illiberal racism of Johnson's words in 2009.
    And 2016, his comments about Obama's 'half Kenyan' heritage was seen in America as one of those coded racist terms.
    Code is supposed to hide the message.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,881

    Just out of curiosity, is there a bust of Franklin Roosevelt in the Prime Minister's office. Surely at some point, but now?

    Think FDR is to UK, what WSC is to US: a VERY positive figure, greatly admired, with MUCH less criticism than at home.

    Abraham Lincoln is outside Parliament, if he counts.
    Not exactly the PM's office though!
    Yes, but we can all see him. Which is also important.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,600
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    AstraZeneca will cut deliveries of the Oxford COVID-19 vaccine to the European Union by 60% in the first quarter of the year, according to Reuters news agency.

    The company was expected to deliver around 80 million doses to the 27 EU countries by the end of March, an EU official told the agency.

    However, it now expects that to be cut to 31 million doses due to "production problems" at a vaccine factory in Belgium run by its partner Novasep.

    "Initial volumes will be lower than originally anticipated due to reduced yields at a manufacturing site within our European supply chain," a company spokesman said in a written statement.

    The EU Commission said AstraZeneca had informed its vaccination steering board of a change of its delivery schedule and that the Commission was working to find out more.


    The immunisation campaign has already been hampered by a temporary shortfall in the supply chain of vaccine developers Pfizer and BioNTech, who are retooling a site in Belgium to boost output.

    Earlier the Financial Times reported that supplies to the UK would not be affected.


    https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-astrazeneca-to-cut-covid-19-vaccine-delivery-to-eu-by-60-reports-12195923

    Thank heavens for our domestic manufacturing subsidies.
    Thoughts and prayers for that, I think American, tweeter who tweets some very misleading stats about the vaccine rollout.
    Even if the EMA approve it that's only 1.2m doses per country so far, a basically nothing amount. The EU has got no luck at all in this.
    You make your own luck.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,435
    edited January 2021

    Leon said:

    To try to make myself feel a little better, I'm going to attempt some optimism about 2021 and make a guess about what happens assuming that we don't get a vaccine-resistant SuperCovid that causes everything to go completely to shit.

    1. Long miserable slog through to April or May, i.e. until we get as far as lancing all the over 50s
    2. Primary schools then come back, some baby steps on people meeting outside their household, and gyms, hair and beauty reopen, followed by a 3-4 week gap to see what happens next
    3. Assuming that's OK, we get the non-essential shops and possibly venues like museums, art galleries and National Trust properties, where visitor numbers and movement can be carefully managed. That's it until about September, which is my best guess at when the rest of the adult population will have been jabbed. I suspect that the scientists will go mental if there's any suggestion of unshuttering hospitality. If that's the case then hopefully the Government will also show some common sense and drop its obsessions with getting secondary schools back and letting people go on foreign holidays as well
    4. We finally get the rest of education and whatever is left of hospitality back once the entire vaccination program is completed, along with a broader relaxation of rules on social gatherings. Sporting events and surviving theatres allowed to reopen but with substantially reduced crowds
    5. Widespread imposition of masks and social distancing rules continues until April 2022, when the Coronavirus Act is chucked in the dustbin and all the remaining restrictions go - however...
    6. Some elements of mask wearing and social distancing will probably be reintroduced between October and March every year for the rest of time, which will render all smaller hospitality premises apart from takeaways permanently uneconomic

    I'm non-committal on when I think foreign travel may resume - whether that comes back in September or we have to wait until next year. I think more likely the former, although some destinations like Australia might not want us back for a couple of years anyway.

    In summary, bloody awful but at least most of the bullshit ends eventually. That's about as sunny as my disposition gets nowadays.

    lol. That's pretty grim, but you might be right.

    There is a reasonable worst case scenario now, that the virus continues to mutate beyond our ability to vaccinate against it, and civilised life as we know it simply ends.

    HOWEVER, in that scenario, I believe we would adapt in a year or two, by simply factoring in a much higher risk of death, disease, disablement. We would go back to a world pre-antibiotics, where a humble infection could easily kill you, and we'd shrug and accept this, and go back to what we were. Sex, love, society would assume their rightful priority in our lives. A few would cower away: that would be their choice.
    Antibiotic resistance might stuff us up that badly in the end. I don't think it likely that coronavirus will, although given how dreadfully this has gone so far I do worry that we may get unlucky and have to deal with the kind of mutation disaster you describe at least once before we properly put a lid on it. I'm trying hard not to contemplate that, but it really does worry me that this may drag on for a very long time.

    I'm also afraid that the combination of Covid and flu might be used to try to force us into wearing gags for six months of every year in perpetuity, and to that extent we may never be properly rid of the consequences of this evil event.
    Masks have been worn casually, by millions, in East Asia - eg Japan, HK, Singapore - for a decade or more. They have remained civilised societies.

    It is seen as a polite courtesy to others: if you have a cold or flu, or even suspect you have, put a bloody mask on, so you don't spread it.

    The Asians are quite right. If you do think you've got a bug, put a mask on.

    We used to spit everywhere until TB made that unaffordably antisocial.

    I won't cry if we adopt this very sensible social protocol.
  • Carnyx said:

    I just cannot raise the effort to get upset at the re-siting of Winston Churchill's bust

    As someone who lay in his Mothers arms in Greater Manchester, under a steel table, as Hitler's v bombs roared overhead, one stopping directly above resulting in the death of six of our neighbours, I and the country owe a huge debt to Winston Churchill

    However, I do not see the location of his bust in the oval office a matter of any consequence to be fair in the overall scheme of things

    Personally am glad that there is no one looking over MY shoulder when I rearrange the brick-a-brac in my (approximately square) office.
    What is so amazing about BigG's story about the Morrison shelter is how few V-1s actually landed on Greater Manchester - how unlucky those neighbours were.
    It was not the landing, it was the fear and terror they could land
  • Carnyx said:

    Have we heard anymore, from the eminent historian and Spectator hack, who said that sign-language interpretation of the Pledge of Allegiance at President Biden's inaugural was "tik-tock political correctness"

    Rare instance of the deaf being mocked by the dumb and blind.

    I do think that that is very, very nasty. I did think that earlier but managed to keep quiet. A mistake on reflection. I have a close deaf relative and it hurts to see shite like that from the fucking right wing who are so fucking desperate to sneer at anything they can if it isn't belonging to their fucking hero Trump.
    Am slightly surprised this stupidly bigoted quotation has NOT be criticized (yet anyway) more widely and highly.

    IF an American politico made such as statement, they'd crucify the fucker.

    Maybe it's because, over here, people are used to seeing sign language interpreters. Which of course are absolutely vital in times of local or national emergency (from hurricanes and tornadoes to COVID).

    Plus there are plenty of conservative people who have deaf friends & relatives.

    Just think this dipshit has stepped into it. And ought to get his fool face rubbed in it. Along with his paymaster.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,028
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    AstraZeneca will cut deliveries of the Oxford COVID-19 vaccine to the European Union by 60% in the first quarter of the year, according to Reuters news agency.

    The company was expected to deliver around 80 million doses to the 27 EU countries by the end of March, an EU official told the agency.

    However, it now expects that to be cut to 31 million doses due to "production problems" at a vaccine factory in Belgium run by its partner Novasep.

    "Initial volumes will be lower than originally anticipated due to reduced yields at a manufacturing site within our European supply chain," a company spokesman said in a written statement.

    The EU Commission said AstraZeneca had informed its vaccination steering board of a change of its delivery schedule and that the Commission was working to find out more.


    The immunisation campaign has already been hampered by a temporary shortfall in the supply chain of vaccine developers Pfizer and BioNTech, who are retooling a site in Belgium to boost output.

    Earlier the Financial Times reported that supplies to the UK would not be affected.


    https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-astrazeneca-to-cut-covid-19-vaccine-delivery-to-eu-by-60-reports-12195923

    Thank heavens for our domestic manufacturing subsidies.
    Thoughts and prayers for that, I think American, tweeter who tweets some very misleading stats about the vaccine rollout.
    Even if the EMA approve it that's only 1.2m doses per country so far, a basically nothing amount. The EU has got no luck at all in this.
    I really don’t wish the EU any ill- but they have utterly messed up vaccine procurement.

    For the sake of those individuals who need it - I hope that wasn’t the case. Hope the situation is rectified.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Really, these American presidents have to learn to grow up a bit. I mean, if everyone took a dislike towards Britain just because we, er, did our thing with their ancestors, we'd hardly have any friends left at all...
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    To try to make myself feel a little better, I'm going to attempt some optimism about 2021 and make a guess about what happens assuming that we don't get a vaccine-resistant SuperCovid that causes everything to go completely to shit.

    1. Long miserable slog through to April or May, i.e. until we get as far as lancing all the over 50s
    2. Primary schools then come back, some baby steps on people meeting outside their household, and gyms, hair and beauty reopen, followed by a 3-4 week gap to see what happens next
    3. Assuming that's OK, we get the non-essential shops and possibly venues like museums, art galleries and National Trust properties, where visitor numbers and movement can be carefully managed. That's it until about September, which is my best guess at when the rest of the adult population will have been jabbed. I suspect that the scientists will go mental if there's any suggestion of unshuttering hospitality. If that's the case then hopefully the Government will also show some common sense and drop its obsessions with getting secondary schools back and letting people go on foreign holidays as well
    4. We finally get the rest of education and whatever is left of hospitality back once the entire vaccination program is completed, along with a broader relaxation of rules on social gatherings. Sporting events and surviving theatres allowed to reopen but with substantially reduced crowds
    5. Widespread imposition of masks and social distancing rules continues until April 2022, when the Coronavirus Act is chucked in the dustbin and all the remaining restrictions go - however...
    6. Some elements of mask wearing and social distancing will probably be reintroduced between October and March every year for the rest of time, which will render all smaller hospitality premises apart from takeaways permanently uneconomic

    I'm non-committal on when I think foreign travel may resume - whether that comes back in September or we have to wait until next year. I think more likely the former, although some destinations like Australia might not want us back for a couple of years anyway.

    In summary, bloody awful but at least most of the bullshit ends eventually. That's about as sunny as my disposition gets nowadays.

    lol. That's pretty grim, but you might be right.

    There is a reasonable worst case scenario now, that the virus continues to mutate beyond our ability to vaccinate against it, and civilised life as we know it simply ends.

    HOWEVER, in that scenario, I believe we would adapt in a year or two, by simply factoring in a much higher risk of death, disease, disablement. We would go back to a world pre-antibiotics, where a humble infection could easily kill you, and we'd shrug and accept this, and go back to what we were. Sex, love, society would assume their rightful priority in our lives. A few would cower away: that would be their choice.
    Antibiotic resistance might stuff us up that badly in the end. I don't think it likely that coronavirus will, although given how dreadfully this has gone so far I do worry that we may get unlucky and have to deal with the kind of mutation disaster you describe at least once before we properly put a lid on it. I'm trying hard not to contemplate that, but it really does worry me that this may drag on for a very long time.

    I'm also afraid that the combination of Covid and flu might be used to try to force us into wearing gags for six months of every year in perpetuity, and to that extent we may never be properly rid of the consequences of this evil event.
    Masks have been worn casually, by millions, in East Asia - eg Japan, HK, Singapore - for a decade or more. They have remained civilised societies.

    It is seen as a polite courtesy to others: if you have a cold or flu, or even suspect you have, put a bloody mask on, so you don't spread it.

    The Asians are quite right. If you do think you've got a bug, put a mask on.

    We used to spit everywhere until TB made that unaffordably antisocial.

    I won't cry if we adopt this very sensible social protocol.
    That is right. Umbrellas were also an exotic Far Eastern novelty, until they weren't.
  • Carnyx said:

    I just cannot raise the effort to get upset at the re-siting of Winston Churchill's bust

    As someone who lay in his Mothers arms in Greater Manchester, under a steel table, as Hitler's v bombs roared overhead, one stopping directly above resulting in the death of six of our neighbours, I and the country owe a huge debt to Winston Churchill

    However, I do not see the location of his bust in the oval office a matter of any consequence to be fair in the overall scheme of things

    Personally am glad that there is no one looking over MY shoulder when I rearrange the brick-a-brac in my (approximately square) office.
    What is so amazing about BigG's story about the Morrison shelter is how few V-1s actually landed on Greater Manchester - how unlucky those neighbours were.
    It was not the landing, it was the fear and terror they could land
    Like the first astronauts, you were spam in a can. Just without the view!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,881
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    To try to make myself feel a little better, I'm going to attempt some optimism about 2021 and make a guess about what happens assuming that we don't get a vaccine-resistant SuperCovid that causes everything to go completely to shit.

    1. Long miserable slog through to April or May, i.e. until we get as far as lancing all the over 50s
    2. Primary schools then come back, some baby steps on people meeting outside their household, and gyms, hair and beauty reopen, followed by a 3-4 week gap to see what happens next
    3. Assuming that's OK, we get the non-essential shops and possibly venues like museums, art galleries and National Trust properties, where visitor numbers and movement can be carefully managed. That's it until about September, which is my best guess at when the rest of the adult population will have been jabbed. I suspect that the scientists will go mental if there's any suggestion of unshuttering hospitality. If that's the case then hopefully the Government will also show some common sense and drop its obsessions with getting secondary schools back and letting people go on foreign holidays as well
    4. We finally get the rest of education and whatever is left of hospitality back once the entire vaccination program is completed, along with a broader relaxation of rules on social gatherings. Sporting events and surviving theatres allowed to reopen but with substantially reduced crowds
    5. Widespread imposition of masks and social distancing rules continues until April 2022, when the Coronavirus Act is chucked in the dustbin and all the remaining restrictions go - however...
    6. Some elements of mask wearing and social distancing will probably be reintroduced between October and March every year for the rest of time, which will render all smaller hospitality premises apart from takeaways permanently uneconomic

    I'm non-committal on when I think foreign travel may resume - whether that comes back in September or we have to wait until next year. I think more likely the former, although some destinations like Australia might not want us back for a couple of years anyway.

    In summary, bloody awful but at least most of the bullshit ends eventually. That's about as sunny as my disposition gets nowadays.

    lol. That's pretty grim, but you might be right.

    There is a reasonable worst case scenario now, that the virus continues to mutate beyond our ability to vaccinate against it, and civilised life as we know it simply ends.

    HOWEVER, in that scenario, I believe we would adapt in a year or two, by simply factoring in a much higher risk of death, disease, disablement. We would go back to a world pre-antibiotics, where a humble infection could easily kill you, and we'd shrug and accept this, and go back to what we were. Sex, love, society would assume their rightful priority in our lives. A few would cower away: that would be their choice.
    Antibiotic resistance might stuff us up that badly in the end. I don't think it likely that coronavirus will, although given how dreadfully this has gone so far I do worry that we may get unlucky and have to deal with the kind of mutation disaster you describe at least once before we properly put a lid on it. I'm trying hard not to contemplate that, but it really does worry me that this may drag on for a very long time.

    I'm also afraid that the combination of Covid and flu might be used to try to force us into wearing gags for six months of every year in perpetuity, and to that extent we may never be properly rid of the consequences of this evil event.
    Masks have been worn casually, by millions, in East Asia - eg Japan, HK, Singapore - for a decade or more. They have remained civilised societies.

    It is seen as a polite courtesy to others: if you have a cold or flu, or even suspect you have, put a bloody mask on, so you don't spread it.

    The Asians are quite right. If you do think you've got a bug, put a mask on.

    We used to spit everywhere until TB made that unaffordably antisocial.

    I won't cry if we adopt this very sensible social protocol.
    There is a real problem for deaf people who rely on lipreading. But force majeure.

    I'd be happier if you could rely on people with the sniffles to be sensible in the first place. And everyone to wear it properly. The lack of any such public information campaign - and I include the devolvled governments in that - has been a shocking lapse.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,908

    AstraZeneca will cut deliveries of the Oxford COVID-19 vaccine to the European Union by 60% in the first quarter of the year, according to Reuters news agency.

    The company was expected to deliver around 80 million doses to the 27 EU countries by the end of March, an EU official told the agency.

    However, it now expects that to be cut to 31 million doses due to "production problems" at a vaccine factory in Belgium run by its partner Novasep.

    "Initial volumes will be lower than originally anticipated due to reduced yields at a manufacturing site within our European supply chain," a company spokesman said in a written statement.

    The EU Commission said AstraZeneca had informed its vaccination steering board of a change of its delivery schedule and that the Commission was working to find out more.


    The immunisation campaign has already been hampered by a temporary shortfall in the supply chain of vaccine developers Pfizer and BioNTech, who are retooling a site in Belgium to boost output.

    Earlier the Financial Times reported that supplies to the UK would not be affected.


    https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-astrazeneca-to-cut-covid-19-vaccine-delivery-to-eu-by-60-reports-12195923

    So we have a more tranmissible and deadlier variant of the virus, and vaccine supplies are going to be very tight in some countries, and wholely inadequate in others. How does this add up to anything other than a hell of a lot more deaths?
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    Talking about burning calories and invigorating the circulatory system, at my advanced age (Justa had a Corona jab) I can still burn about 300 calories in a half hour. I listen to stuff like Van Morrison, Bach, Mike Oldfield, U2, and Respighi. I suspect the after effects may also burn a few calories.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,881

    Carnyx said:

    I just cannot raise the effort to get upset at the re-siting of Winston Churchill's bust

    As someone who lay in his Mothers arms in Greater Manchester, under a steel table, as Hitler's v bombs roared overhead, one stopping directly above resulting in the death of six of our neighbours, I and the country owe a huge debt to Winston Churchill

    However, I do not see the location of his bust in the oval office a matter of any consequence to be fair in the overall scheme of things

    Personally am glad that there is no one looking over MY shoulder when I rearrange the brick-a-brac in my (approximately square) office.
    What is so amazing about BigG's story about the Morrison shelter is how few V-1s actually landed on Greater Manchester - how unlucky those neighbours were.
    It was not the landing, it was the fear and terror they could land
    Oh, quite so, so I gather - just coincidentally been reading a couple of histories of the things.
  • I wonder if Biden saw this and removed the Churchill bust.

    Disgusting that Boris Johnson hasn't removed the whip from this tosspot Tory MP.

    https://twitter.com/AndrewRosindell/status/1323824097973964800

    The irony is Joe Biden is to the right on many issues of say a David Cameron or Boris Johnson before he became a political catamite of the Brexit far right.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,600
    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    I see flag totemism has moved on. If you haven't got a bust of Winston on your desk then you must be a woke cultural Marxist.
    Where do a model of Thunderbird 2 and a stuffed echidna souvenir ex Adelaide place me?
    Local church hall's jumble sale?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,881

    Carnyx said:

    Have we heard anymore, from the eminent historian and Spectator hack, who said that sign-language interpretation of the Pledge of Allegiance at President Biden's inaugural was "tik-tock political correctness"

    Rare instance of the deaf being mocked by the dumb and blind.

    I do think that that is very, very nasty. I did think that earlier but managed to keep quiet. A mistake on reflection. I have a close deaf relative and it hurts to see shite like that from the fucking right wing who are so fucking desperate to sneer at anything they can if it isn't belonging to their fucking hero Trump.
    Am slightly surprised this stupidly bigoted quotation has NOT be criticized (yet anyway) more widely and highly.

    IF an American politico made such as statement, they'd crucify the fucker.

    Maybe it's because, over here, people are used to seeing sign language interpreters. Which of course are absolutely vital in times of local or national emergency (from hurricanes and tornadoes to COVID).

    Plus there are plenty of conservative people who have deaf friends & relatives.

    Just think this dipshit has stepped into it. And ought to get his fool face rubbed in it. Along with his paymaster.
    I muist say I'd like to see his computers and TVs have the sound chips permanently removed and see how he gets on.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,866

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    AstraZeneca will cut deliveries of the Oxford COVID-19 vaccine to the European Union by 60% in the first quarter of the year, according to Reuters news agency.

    The company was expected to deliver around 80 million doses to the 27 EU countries by the end of March, an EU official told the agency.

    However, it now expects that to be cut to 31 million doses due to "production problems" at a vaccine factory in Belgium run by its partner Novasep.

    "Initial volumes will be lower than originally anticipated due to reduced yields at a manufacturing site within our European supply chain," a company spokesman said in a written statement.

    The EU Commission said AstraZeneca had informed its vaccination steering board of a change of its delivery schedule and that the Commission was working to find out more.


    The immunisation campaign has already been hampered by a temporary shortfall in the supply chain of vaccine developers Pfizer and BioNTech, who are retooling a site in Belgium to boost output.

    Earlier the Financial Times reported that supplies to the UK would not be affected.


    https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-astrazeneca-to-cut-covid-19-vaccine-delivery-to-eu-by-60-reports-12195923

    Thank heavens for our domestic manufacturing subsidies.
    Thoughts and prayers for that, I think American, tweeter who tweets some very misleading stats about the vaccine rollout.
    Even if the EMA approve it that's only 1.2m doses per country so far, a basically nothing amount. The EU has got no luck at all in this.
    See if Boris Johnson had extended the transition phase by six months then we would have held all the cards in the negotiations and gotten an awesome deal.
    The disparity in recoveries would have been a strong place to negotiate from for us but the underlying issues wouldn't have been any different. I'd have liked a 6 month border implementation period though.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,881

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    I see flag totemism has moved on. If you haven't got a bust of Winston on your desk then you must be a woke cultural Marxist.
    Where do a model of Thunderbird 2 and a stuffed echidna souvenir ex Adelaide place me?
    Local church hall's jumble sale?
    That's more Transformers.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,696
    Scott_xP said:
    That is a disgrace.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    edited January 2021

    Just out of curiosity, is there a bust of Franklin Roosevelt in the Prime Minister's office. Surely at some point, but now?

    Think FDR is to UK, what WSC is to US: a VERY positive figure, greatly admired, with MUCH less criticism than at home.

    There is no bust of FDR in the PM's office.

    As our site's resident American just how badly will Biden lose the 2024 election because he removed Churchill's bust?

    GOP gain California?
    NO BUST OF FDR IN THE PM'S OFFICE?!?!

    Think that Churchill would be outraged!

    Was there EVER an FDR bust in the PM's office, and if so, which PM removed it? America wants to know!!
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    I see flag totemism has moved on. If you haven't got a bust of Winston on your desk then you must be a woke cultural Marxist.
    Where do a model of Thunderbird 2 and a stuffed echidna souvenir ex Adelaide place me?
    Local church hall's jumble sale?
    And about to have your collar felt for a CITES infraction.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    AstraZeneca will cut deliveries of the Oxford COVID-19 vaccine to the European Union by 60% in the first quarter of the year, according to Reuters news agency.

    The company was expected to deliver around 80 million doses to the 27 EU countries by the end of March, an EU official told the agency.

    However, it now expects that to be cut to 31 million doses due to "production problems" at a vaccine factory in Belgium run by its partner Novasep.

    "Initial volumes will be lower than originally anticipated due to reduced yields at a manufacturing site within our European supply chain," a company spokesman said in a written statement.

    The EU Commission said AstraZeneca had informed its vaccination steering board of a change of its delivery schedule and that the Commission was working to find out more.


    The immunisation campaign has already been hampered by a temporary shortfall in the supply chain of vaccine developers Pfizer and BioNTech, who are retooling a site in Belgium to boost output.

    Earlier the Financial Times reported that supplies to the UK would not be affected.


    https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-astrazeneca-to-cut-covid-19-vaccine-delivery-to-eu-by-60-reports-12195923

    Thank heavens for our domestic manufacturing subsidies.
    Thoughts and prayers for that, I think American, tweeter who tweets some very misleading stats about the vaccine rollout.
    Even if the EMA approve it that's only 1.2m doses per country so far, a basically nothing amount. The EU has got no luck at all in this.
    As I remarked earlier this evening, if the end result of the UK rejecting the common EU vaccine procurement scheme is that we get out the other end of the pandemic restrictions even three months ahead of the EU27, then the savings relative to where we would otherwise have found ourselves - in blood and in treasure - will be colossal. The Government could lavish every distressed fish exporter in the land with his or her own weight in gold from them and still have a large mountain of cash left over.

    This, of course, relies on our riding out luck through the rest of this thing and there being no disasters with production, distribution or resistant strains, BUT if the Government pulls this off then it'll deserve a lot of credit. It would be inequitable to critique its many failings without acknowledging when it has actually got something important right.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,435
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    To try to make myself feel a little better, I'm going to attempt some optimism about 2021 and make a guess about what happens assuming that we don't get a vaccine-resistant SuperCovid that causes everything to go completely to shit.

    1. Long miserable slog through to April or May, i.e. until we get as far as lancing all the over 50s
    2. Primary schools then come back, some baby steps on people meeting outside their household, and gyms, hair and beauty reopen, followed by a 3-4 week gap to see what happens next
    3. Assuming that's OK, we get the non-essential shops and possibly venues like museums, art galleries and National Trust properties, where visitor numbers and movement can be carefully managed. That's it until about September, which is my best guess at when the rest of the adult population will have been jabbed. I suspect that the scientists will go mental if there's any suggestion of unshuttering hospitality. If that's the case then hopefully the Government will also show some common sense and drop its obsessions with getting secondary schools back and letting people go on foreign holidays as well
    4. We finally get the rest of education and whatever is left of hospitality back once the entire vaccination program is completed, along with a broader relaxation of rules on social gatherings. Sporting events and surviving theatres allowed to reopen but with substantially reduced crowds
    5. Widespread imposition of masks and social distancing rules continues until April 2022, when the Coronavirus Act is chucked in the dustbin and all the remaining restrictions go - however...
    6. Some elements of mask wearing and social distancing will probably be reintroduced between October and March every year for the rest of time, which will render all smaller hospitality premises apart from takeaways permanently uneconomic

    I'm non-committal on when I think foreign travel may resume - whether that comes back in September or we have to wait until next year. I think more likely the former, although some destinations like Australia might not want us back for a couple of years anyway.

    In summary, bloody awful but at least most of the bullshit ends eventually. That's about as sunny as my disposition gets nowadays.

    lol. That's pretty grim, but you might be right.

    There is a reasonable worst case scenario now, that the virus continues to mutate beyond our ability to vaccinate against it, and civilised life as we know it simply ends.

    HOWEVER, in that scenario, I believe we would adapt in a year or two, by simply factoring in a much higher risk of death, disease, disablement. We would go back to a world pre-antibiotics, where a humble infection could easily kill you, and we'd shrug and accept this, and go back to what we were. Sex, love, society would assume their rightful priority in our lives. A few would cower away: that would be their choice.
    Antibiotic resistance might stuff us up that badly in the end. I don't think it likely that coronavirus will, although given how dreadfully this has gone so far I do worry that we may get unlucky and have to deal with the kind of mutation disaster you describe at least once before we properly put a lid on it. I'm trying hard not to contemplate that, but it really does worry me that this may drag on for a very long time.

    I'm also afraid that the combination of Covid and flu might be used to try to force us into wearing gags for six months of every year in perpetuity, and to that extent we may never be properly rid of the consequences of this evil event.
    Masks have been worn casually, by millions, in East Asia - eg Japan, HK, Singapore - for a decade or more. They have remained civilised societies.

    It is seen as a polite courtesy to others: if you have a cold or flu, or even suspect you have, put a bloody mask on, so you don't spread it.

    The Asians are quite right. If you do think you've got a bug, put a mask on.

    We used to spit everywhere until TB made that unaffordably antisocial.

    I won't cry if we adopt this very sensible social protocol.
    There is a real problem for deaf people who rely on lipreading. But force majeure.

    I'd be happier if you could rely on people with the sniffles to be sensible in the first place. And everyone to wear it properly. The lack of any such public information campaign - and I include the devolvled governments in that - has been a shocking lapse.
    Totally agree. During WW2 - and this is now like a wartime emergency - there were endless public broadcasts for radio and cinema, advising on every aspect of wartime life, and how we had to adjust.

    We need these on TV and Facebook and TikTok. eg This is WHY you wear a mask, this is HOW, this is WHEN, and much much more. Get Ed bloody Sheeran and the stars of TOWIE to do it. Who cares. We need public education. Make it funny, but do it.

    I note the German government has now mandated FFP2 masks for wearing indoors. Not just a sexy banditi gaiter or a papery blue thing. The real deal. That is coming here, I suspect, and soon.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    edited January 2021

    Just out of curiosity, is there a bust of Franklin Roosevelt in the Prime Minister's office. Surely at some point, but now?

    Think FDR is to UK, what WSC is to US: a VERY positive figure, greatly admired, with MUCH less criticism than at home.

    There is no bust of FDR in the PM's office.

    As our site's resident American just how badly will Biden lose the 2024 election because he removed Churchill's bust?

    GOP gain California?
    NO BUST OF FDR IN THE PM'S OFFICE?!?!

    Think that Churchill would be outraged!

    Was there EVER an FDR bust in the PM's office, and if so, which PM removed it? American wants to know!!
    There is no equivalent of the Oval Office so different Prime Ministers set up office in different rooms at Number 10.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,881
    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    To try to make myself feel a little better, I'm going to attempt some optimism about 2021 and make a guess about what happens assuming that we don't get a vaccine-resistant SuperCovid that causes everything to go completely to shit.

    1. Long miserable slog through to April or May, i.e. until we get as far as lancing all the over 50s
    2. Primary schools then come back, some baby steps on people meeting outside their household, and gyms, hair and beauty reopen, followed by a 3-4 week gap to see what happens next
    3. Assuming that's OK, we get the non-essential shops and possibly venues like museums, art galleries and National Trust properties, where visitor numbers and movement can be carefully managed. That's it until about September, which is my best guess at when the rest of the adult population will have been jabbed. I suspect that the scientists will go mental if there's any suggestion of unshuttering hospitality. If that's the case then hopefully the Government will also show some common sense and drop its obsessions with getting secondary schools back and letting people go on foreign holidays as well
    4. We finally get the rest of education and whatever is left of hospitality back once the entire vaccination program is completed, along with a broader relaxation of rules on social gatherings. Sporting events and surviving theatres allowed to reopen but with substantially reduced crowds
    5. Widespread imposition of masks and social distancing rules continues until April 2022, when the Coronavirus Act is chucked in the dustbin and all the remaining restrictions go - however...
    6. Some elements of mask wearing and social distancing will probably be reintroduced between October and March every year for the rest of time, which will render all smaller hospitality premises apart from takeaways permanently uneconomic

    I'm non-committal on when I think foreign travel may resume - whether that comes back in September or we have to wait until next year. I think more likely the former, although some destinations like Australia might not want us back for a couple of years anyway.

    In summary, bloody awful but at least most of the bullshit ends eventually. That's about as sunny as my disposition gets nowadays.

    lol. That's pretty grim, but you might be right.

    There is a reasonable worst case scenario now, that the virus continues to mutate beyond our ability to vaccinate against it, and civilised life as we know it simply ends.

    HOWEVER, in that scenario, I believe we would adapt in a year or two, by simply factoring in a much higher risk of death, disease, disablement. We would go back to a world pre-antibiotics, where a humble infection could easily kill you, and we'd shrug and accept this, and go back to what we were. Sex, love, society would assume their rightful priority in our lives. A few would cower away: that would be their choice.
    Antibiotic resistance might stuff us up that badly in the end. I don't think it likely that coronavirus will, although given how dreadfully this has gone so far I do worry that we may get unlucky and have to deal with the kind of mutation disaster you describe at least once before we properly put a lid on it. I'm trying hard not to contemplate that, but it really does worry me that this may drag on for a very long time.

    I'm also afraid that the combination of Covid and flu might be used to try to force us into wearing gags for six months of every year in perpetuity, and to that extent we may never be properly rid of the consequences of this evil event.
    Masks have been worn casually, by millions, in East Asia - eg Japan, HK, Singapore - for a decade or more. They have remained civilised societies.

    It is seen as a polite courtesy to others: if you have a cold or flu, or even suspect you have, put a bloody mask on, so you don't spread it.

    The Asians are quite right. If you do think you've got a bug, put a mask on.

    We used to spit everywhere until TB made that unaffordably antisocial.

    I won't cry if we adopt this very sensible social protocol.
    There is a real problem for deaf people who rely on lipreading. But force majeure.

    I'd be happier if you could rely on people with the sniffles to be sensible in the first place. And everyone to wear it properly. The lack of any such public information campaign - and I include the devolvled governments in that - has been a shocking lapse.
    Totally agree. During WW2 - and this is now like a wartime emergency - there were endless public broadcasts for radio and cinema, advising on every aspect of wartime life, and how we had to adjust.

    We need these on TV and Facebook and TikTok. eg This is WHY you wear a mask, this is HOW, this is WHEN, and much much more. Get Ed bloody Sheeran and the stars of TOWIE to do it. Who cares. We need public education. Make it funny, but do it.

    I note the German government has now mandated FFP2 masks for wearing indoors. Not just a sexy banditi gaiter or a papery blue thing. The real deal. That is coming here, I suspect, and soon.
    I'd be delighed to see that. And people made to wear them without being allowed to whine. Only a doctor's letter allowed as a letoff. (But some with windows for deaf people's companions - yes, they do exist, and good thing too.)
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    France picking up the pace, slightly:


  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,665
    edited January 2021
    Thoughts and prayers for PB pissheads.

    UK drinkers face paying up to £1.50 extra a bottle on many European wines while choosing from a reduced range, merchants have warned, as the burden of post-Brexit paperwork takes effect.

    Importers said the cost of new customs declarations and certifications, plus higher haulage prices, would hit the pockets of British wine drinkers, while flat-rate costs per shipment were pushing wholesalers to offer a narrower selection of bottles.

    “We are looking at a totally avoidable increase in the cost of wine across the board,” said Jason Millar, a director at wholesaler Theatre of Wine. “Many importers will cut wines, not because they don’t believe in them . . . but because they don’t feel they are able to muster enough volume.”

    Daniel Lambert, a wine wholesaler who imports around 2m bottles a year for UK retailers, said he estimated post-Brexit bureaucracy would add £1 to £1.50 to the price of a £12 bottle of wine.


    https://www.ft.com/content/2747ddf8-7f6c-4b34-9e40-36d6c4178203
  • Just out of curiosity, is there a bust of Franklin Roosevelt in the Prime Minister's office. Surely at some point, but now?

    Think FDR is to UK, what WSC is to US: a VERY positive figure, greatly admired, with MUCH less criticism than at home.

    There is no bust of FDR in the PM's office.

    As our site's resident American just how badly will Biden lose the 2024 election because he removed Churchill's bust?

    GOP gain California?
    NO BUST OF FDR IN THE PM'S OFFICE?!?!

    Think that Churchill would be outraged!

    Was there EVER an FDR bust in the PM's office, and if so, which PM removed it? American wants to know!!
    There is no equivalent of the Oval Office so different Prime Ministers set up office in different rooms at Number 10.
    The PM has a dedicated office in the Houses of Parliament.

    No bust there either.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,881
    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    I imagine the US is saying something like:
    Ceci n'est pas une special relationship, it's a bust you thin skinned, stupid feckers.

    Or words to that effect.

    https://twitter.com/USAinUK/status/1352642302091653121?s=20

    Hmm. That won't cut it. They need to explain where else they've moved it to and why Churchill is still revered as a founder and symbol of it. That arguably makes it worse.

    They know perfectly well that Boris criticised Obama over doing this last time (and in no uncertain terms either.. Biden's team have mentioned it numerous times).

    The moving of this without notice or warning wasn't an accident; it was a statement.
    I see flag totemism has moved on. If you haven't got a bust of Winston on your desk then you must be a woke cultural Marxist.
    Where do a model of Thunderbird 2 and a stuffed echidna souvenir ex Adelaide place me?
    Local church hall's jumble sale?
    And about to have your collar felt for a CITES infraction.
    I should have said a toy monotreme - wouldn't dream of importing a real Tachyglossus (seeing them in the flesh was a great treat, including in the wild, ditto a platypus).
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,600
    glw said:

    AstraZeneca will cut deliveries of the Oxford COVID-19 vaccine to the European Union by 60% in the first quarter of the year, according to Reuters news agency.

    The company was expected to deliver around 80 million doses to the 27 EU countries by the end of March, an EU official told the agency.

    However, it now expects that to be cut to 31 million doses due to "production problems" at a vaccine factory in Belgium run by its partner Novasep.

    "Initial volumes will be lower than originally anticipated due to reduced yields at a manufacturing site within our European supply chain," a company spokesman said in a written statement.

    The EU Commission said AstraZeneca had informed its vaccination steering board of a change of its delivery schedule and that the Commission was working to find out more.


    The immunisation campaign has already been hampered by a temporary shortfall in the supply chain of vaccine developers Pfizer and BioNTech, who are retooling a site in Belgium to boost output.

    Earlier the Financial Times reported that supplies to the UK would not be affected.


    https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-astrazeneca-to-cut-covid-19-vaccine-delivery-to-eu-by-60-reports-12195923

    So we have a more tranmissible and deadlier variant of the virus, and vaccine supplies are going to be very tight in some countries, and wholely inadequate in others. How does this add up to anything other than a hell of a lot more deaths?
    The Belgians leaked the units costs of vaccines they had paid for their supplies - to show how good a price they had negotiated against us crazy, lavish Brits.

    Oops.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/18/belgian-minister-accidentally-tweets-eus-covid-vaccine-price-list

  • glwglw Posts: 9,908

    glw said:

    AstraZeneca will cut deliveries of the Oxford COVID-19 vaccine to the European Union by 60% in the first quarter of the year, according to Reuters news agency.

    The company was expected to deliver around 80 million doses to the 27 EU countries by the end of March, an EU official told the agency.

    However, it now expects that to be cut to 31 million doses due to "production problems" at a vaccine factory in Belgium run by its partner Novasep.

    "Initial volumes will be lower than originally anticipated due to reduced yields at a manufacturing site within our European supply chain," a company spokesman said in a written statement.

    The EU Commission said AstraZeneca had informed its vaccination steering board of a change of its delivery schedule and that the Commission was working to find out more.


    The immunisation campaign has already been hampered by a temporary shortfall in the supply chain of vaccine developers Pfizer and BioNTech, who are retooling a site in Belgium to boost output.

    Earlier the Financial Times reported that supplies to the UK would not be affected.


    https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-astrazeneca-to-cut-covid-19-vaccine-delivery-to-eu-by-60-reports-12195923

    So we have a more tranmissible and deadlier variant of the virus, and vaccine supplies are going to be very tight in some countries, and wholely inadequate in others. How does this add up to anything other than a hell of a lot more deaths?
    The Belgians leaked the units costs of vaccines they had paid for their supplies - to show how good a price they had negotiated against us crazy, lavish Brits.

    Oops.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/18/belgian-minister-accidentally-tweets-eus-covid-vaccine-price-list

    My only complaint would be that we should have spent more and backed other vaccines and placed larger orders. This is a problem where throwing money at it is for once the right thing to do.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    To try to make myself feel a little better, I'm going to attempt some optimism about 2021 and make a guess about what happens assuming that we don't get a vaccine-resistant SuperCovid that causes everything to go completely to shit.

    1. Long miserable slog through to April or May, i.e. until we get as far as lancing all the over 50s
    2. Primary schools then come back, some baby steps on people meeting outside their household, and gyms, hair and beauty reopen, followed by a 3-4 week gap to see what happens next
    3. Assuming that's OK, we get the non-essential shops and possibly venues like museums, art galleries and National Trust properties, where visitor numbers and movement can be carefully managed. That's it until about September, which is my best guess at when the rest of the adult population will have been jabbed. I suspect that the scientists will go mental if there's any suggestion of unshuttering hospitality. If that's the case then hopefully the Government will also show some common sense and drop its obsessions with getting secondary schools back and letting people go on foreign holidays as well
    4. We finally get the rest of education and whatever is left of hospitality back once the entire vaccination program is completed, along with a broader relaxation of rules on social gatherings. Sporting events and surviving theatres allowed to reopen but with substantially reduced crowds
    5. Widespread imposition of masks and social distancing rules continues until April 2022, when the Coronavirus Act is chucked in the dustbin and all the remaining restrictions go - however...
    6. Some elements of mask wearing and social distancing will probably be reintroduced between October and March every year for the rest of time, which will render all smaller hospitality premises apart from takeaways permanently uneconomic

    I'm non-committal on when I think foreign travel may resume - whether that comes back in September or we have to wait until next year. I think more likely the former, although some destinations like Australia might not want us back for a couple of years anyway.

    In summary, bloody awful but at least most of the bullshit ends eventually. That's about as sunny as my disposition gets nowadays.

    lol. That's pretty grim, but you might be right.

    There is a reasonable worst case scenario now, that the virus continues to mutate beyond our ability to vaccinate against it, and civilised life as we know it simply ends.

    HOWEVER, in that scenario, I believe we would adapt in a year or two, by simply factoring in a much higher risk of death, disease, disablement. We would go back to a world pre-antibiotics, where a humble infection could easily kill you, and we'd shrug and accept this, and go back to what we were. Sex, love, society would assume their rightful priority in our lives. A few would cower away: that would be their choice.
    Antibiotic resistance might stuff us up that badly in the end. I don't think it likely that coronavirus will, although given how dreadfully this has gone so far I do worry that we may get unlucky and have to deal with the kind of mutation disaster you describe at least once before we properly put a lid on it. I'm trying hard not to contemplate that, but it really does worry me that this may drag on for a very long time.

    I'm also afraid that the combination of Covid and flu might be used to try to force us into wearing gags for six months of every year in perpetuity, and to that extent we may never be properly rid of the consequences of this evil event.
    Masks have been worn casually, by millions, in East Asia - eg Japan, HK, Singapore - for a decade or more. They have remained civilised societies.

    It is seen as a polite courtesy to others: if you have a cold or flu, or even suspect you have, put a bloody mask on, so you don't spread it.

    The Asians are quite right. If you do think you've got a bug, put a mask on.

    We used to spit everywhere until TB made that unaffordably antisocial.

    I won't cry if we adopt this very sensible social protocol.
    There is a real problem for deaf people who rely on lipreading. But force majeure.

    I'd be happier if you could rely on people with the sniffles to be sensible in the first place. And everyone to wear it properly. The lack of any such public information campaign - and I include the devolvled governments in that - has been a shocking lapse.
    Totally agree. During WW2 - and this is now like a wartime emergency - there were endless public broadcasts for radio and cinema, advising on every aspect of wartime life, and how we had to adjust.

    We need these on TV and Facebook and TikTok. eg This is WHY you wear a mask, this is HOW, this is WHEN, and much much more. Get Ed bloody Sheeran and the stars of TOWIE to do it. Who cares. We need public education. Make it funny, but do it.

    I note the German government has now mandated FFP2 masks for wearing indoors. Not just a sexy banditi gaiter or a papery blue thing. The real deal. That is coming here, I suspect, and soon.
    I'd be delighed to see that. And people made to wear them without being allowed to whine. Only a doctor's letter allowed as a letoff. (But some with windows for deaf people's companions - yes, they do exist, and good thing too.)
    Agreed. In Austria, all retirees (including foreign nationals resident there) have been sent a medical-grade mask free of charge by the Government.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,435
    edited January 2021

    Thoughts and prayers for PB pissheads.

    UK drinkers face paying up to £1.50 extra a bottle on many European wines while choosing from a reduced range, merchants have warned, as the burden of post-Brexit paperwork takes effect.

    Importers said the cost of new customs declarations and certifications, plus higher haulage prices, would hit the pockets of British wine drinkers, while flat-rate costs per shipment were pushing wholesalers to offer a narrower selection of bottles.

    “We are looking at a totally avoidable increase in the cost of wine across the board,” said Jason Millar, a director at wholesaler Theatre of Wine. “Many importers will cut wines, not because they don’t believe in them . . . but because they don’t feel they are able to muster enough volume.”

    Daniel Lambert, a wine wholesaler who imports around 2m bottles a year for UK retailers, said he estimated post-Brexit bureaucracy would add £1 to £1.50 to the price of a £12 bottle of wine.


    https://www.ft.com/content/2747ddf8-7f6c-4b34-9e40-36d6c4178203

    I do feel for Remoaners. All this evidence that they were TOTALLY RIGHT ALL ALONG JUST LOOK AT WHAT A C GRAYLING SAID THEN JOLYON AND GINA AND ALSO ALSO ALSO LOOK I HAVE AN EU FLAG IN MY TWITTER AVATAR EU FOREVER!!! FBPE!!!!!!! is going to be completely submerged by the global calamity of Covid. And no one will notice.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    Another of my peeves. Why does the Government not say to people that they should minimise their trips to the supermarket to buy groceries? Get home delivery or click and collect whenever you can. If not, then one member of the household should go and get a big shop.

    Every time someone pops into Tesco there is a risk of infection. Don't go if you can avoid it.

    Simple stuff.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,209

    I've finally found some real data on the efficacy of the Pfizer vaccine in Israel, although it seems to be only in Hebrew. The study compared 200,000 people vaccinated (predominantly over-60) with 200,000 not vaccinated, and looked at the results of Covid tests (i.e. it included non-symptomatic cases):

    https://www.clalit.co.il/he/your_health/family/Pages/pfizer_covid_vac_effect.aspx

    Using Google translate, lightly edited for clarity:

    Among the vaccinated group, on the 14th day of receiving the first dose of the vaccine, there was a significant decrease - of about 33% - in the rate of positive tests for the corona virus.

    Between the 15th and 17th day after receiving the first dose, the numbers remained similar: a decrease of about 20% to 40% in the rate of positive tests for Corona.
    ..
    It should be emphasized: these are only preliminary results of the study that focused on those aged 60 and over.

    It should be noted that Clalit's study identified those infected with Corona according to laboratory tests of those who chose to be tested, while Pfizer's study referred to the appearance of a disease with symptoms.


    So far, nothing after the 17th day, and no info on the effect on symptomatic cases. Thus, reports that the first dose was only 30% effective were misleading.

    It's also important to note there is a gap between infection and testing positive for CV19. If it typically takes five days of infection before you produce a positive test, then 33% starts at day nine, not day 14.
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