I don't think we're going to have a big problem with anti-vaxxers in this country.
The bigger challenge is that given our "open" economy we have gross immigration in the range of 400-600k a year from all over the world, and many many more business visitors and tourists.
That means as long as Covid-19 circulates in the wider world, it will occasionally flare up again here too. We need a much better strategy for visitors, tourists and immigrants - probably certificates of their own.
Vaccine passports to enter the UK, it's really not that difficult.
In order to protect the NHS, though. Because we can't have a lot of people coming here and then they overwhelm the NHS.
Because of course we don't need people to be vaccinated to stop spreading the virus.
If we have achieved 80-90% of eligible people vaccinated then it's a much smaller issue.
It is of course but the debate around vaccinations is in danger of veering into the "vaccinate to stop giving someone else the virus".
Which is not the case.
It does become that eventually because the amount of virus in circulation drops and the R value drops to almost 0. Again, vaccines are both an individual and collective responsibility which is why the nudge method makes a lot of sense.
Indeed, the nudge is 'better for yourself', the public benefit wholly greater. There is no need for a sodding great hammer of jab certificates.
How do you nudge without certificates? You can't get people to make behavioural changes unless there is some level of service denial. Not being able to go to the cinema, fly to Spain or get on a train to Edinburgh is absolutely part of nudging people into action.
I don't think we're going to have a big problem with anti-vaxxers in this country.
The bigger challenge is that given our "open" economy we have gross immigration in the range of 400-600k a year from all over the world, and many many more business visitors and tourists.
That means as long as Covid-19 circulates in the wider world, it will occasionally flare up again here too. We need a much better strategy for visitors, tourists and immigrants - probably certificates of their own.
Vaccine passports to enter the UK, it's really not that difficult.
In order to protect the NHS, though. Because we can't have a lot of people coming here and then they overwhelm the NHS.
Because of course we don't need people to be vaccinated to stop spreading the virus.
If we have achieved 80-90% of eligible people vaccinated then it's a much smaller issue.
It is of course but the debate around vaccinations is in danger of veering into the "vaccinate to stop giving someone else the virus".
Which is not the case.
It does become that eventually because the amount of virus in circulation drops and the R value drops to almost 0. Again, vaccines are both an individual and collective responsibility which is why the nudge method makes a lot of sense.
Absolutely agree. But does the amount of virus in circulation change if people are vaccinated? If people are infected and have had the jab XX% of them will not show symptoms although they will still have had (and could possibly pass on) the virus.
“There was no epic fantasy when when LOTR was written.”
There was the Edda etc. Let’s take a quick peak at it. The wise woman’s prophecy
Who’s in it? Well...
There was Motsognir | the mightiest made Of all the dwarfs, | and Durin next; Many a likeness | of men they made, The dwarfs in the earth, | as Durin said. 11. Nyi and Nithi, | Northri and Suthri, Austri and Vestri, | Althjof, Dvalin, Nar and Nain, | Niping, Dain, Bifur, Bofur, | Bombur, Nori, An and Onar, | Ai, Mjothvitnir.
Vigg and Gandalf) | Vindalf, Thrain, Thekk and Thorin, | Thror, Vit and Lit, Nyr and Nyrath,-- | now have I told-- Regin and Rathsvith-- | the list aright. 13. Fili, Kili, | Fundin, Nali, Heptifili, | Hannar, Sviur, Frar, Hornbori, | Fræg and Loni, Aurvang, Jari, | Eikinskjaldi. 14. The race of the dwarfs | in Dvalin's throng Down to Lofar | the list must I tell; The rocks they left, | and through wet lands They sought a home | in the fields of sand. 15. There were Draupnir | and Dolgthrasir, Hor, Haugspori, | Hlevang, Gloin, Dori, Ori, | Duf, Andvari, Skirfir, Virfir, | Skafith, Ai. 16. Alf and Yngvi, | Eikinskjaldi, Fjalar and Frosti, | Fith and Ginnar; So for all time | shall the tale be known, The list of all | the forbears of Lofar.
Who d'you think you are, some kind of Edda Gabbler?
I don't see the problem with ID cards that can show things like Covid vaccination status. "You can't do x unless you show us y" is a problem because what? Liberty? How about my liberty in not catching Covid from some ignorant scrote?
Will, I think, be a very widely-held view. Protect my safety - or go whistle for my custom.
Genuinely surprised how many people want us to become a papers demanding society.
Not in my name. And I say this as someone who wants to be back to normal ASAP.
Don't be silly. If I say that I think it's reasonable that there are ticket inspectors on buses, and passport control at airports, is that a symptom of a wider hope on my part that we become a "papers demanding society"?
Lots on here seem to want an ID card or certificate relating to your health that can be demanded at will for very normal activities.
That strikes me as a very illiberal development. I am 100% against it. Incidentally, I also can't see many employers going for it.
It is a simple, obvious and proportionate way of very effectively reducing exposure to the risk of life threatening illness. You can pretend that nobody would genuinely think that, and it must be a mask for a wider plan to control and enslave the population, if you like. Employers have duties of care to their employees and customers which make it likely that they would be huge enthusiasts for the idea if they or their insurers have any sense.
I don't understand the problem. We have had this horrendous virus which has destroyed our way of life. The only way to get back to normal is got get as many people vaccinated as quickly as possible. Sadly our society has bred a sizeable minority who think the rules don't apply to them, and just as they are helping spread the pox now they can help to reinfect us all 28 Weeks Later-style.
So why shouldn't the people who think there is a society and that we all have responsibilities to each other demand the people allowed out to mix have also done their bit for the public good? If the anti-vaxxers and selfish gits don't want to play then they don't get allowed to come back out into society. No you can't come in my pub or cinema or board this plane. Sod off.
Getting vaccinated does nothing to prevent you spreading the pox. You would be being selfish in that you might take up an NHS bed. And that is something of course that most sentient beings would like to avoid, to say nothing of the actual illness which necessitates the visit.
I mean I can't really see this becoming my hobby horse but there is a lot of confusion around Covid so it's probably best not to make it any worse.
Not sure whether we know yet whether vaccination prevents transmission. But it certainly reduces the likelihood because there would be no coughing.
The wider issue will be not just air travel, but where else you will have to show a vaccination certificate before access is allowed. Cinemas? Nightclubs? Restaurants? Work in hospitality? Access to shops? It is quite easy to envisage an economy where you are very largely excluded without such a certificate. It may not be compulsory - but there will nonetheless be health apartheid.
Pretty sure it will be deemed illegal to favour customers in such a way.
Not sure on what legal grounds you say that. "Unvaccinated" is not a protected characteristic under the Equality Act or otherwise and I can't see Parliament legislating to make it so. You could try and argue that anti-vaxx is a deeply held philosophical belief and shoehorn it it into "religion or philosophical belief" that way but it's not convincing and there would be a legitimate health ground for wht would be, at worse, indirect discrimination.
I think there will be a small (but vocal) cohort who will refuse for religious reasons, because most of the vaccines are developed with or tested via cell lines developed from aborted fetal cells. My mum is in this category, I thought about it considerably before deciding that I wouldn't regard it as a reason not to be vaccinated. I'm very strongly pro-life, but personally take the view that now those cell lines exist, to refuse to use them and therefore allow people to die of a preventable disease is worse than taking the moral high ground just because the way those cell lines were created is morally appalling.
Discriminating against those who refuse a vaccine for this reason is clearly religious discrimination, and so challenges should succeed under the Equality Act.
Whilst not being personal , it is crazy in 21st century Britain to have "religious " exemptions . Insulting to those who have moral objections but dont believe in a man in the sky to back them up. Just dont do "let me see your papers" crap laws in the first place at all
I agree - but what about when other nations demand it of us as a condition of entry into their country?
I don't see the problem with ID cards that can show things like Covid vaccination status. "You can't do x unless you show us y" is a problem because what? Liberty? How about my liberty in not catching Covid from some ignorant scrote?
Will, I think, be a very widely-held view. Protect my safety - or go whistle for my custom.
Genuinely surprised how many people want us to become a papers demanding society.
Not in my name. And I say this as someone who wants to be back to normal ASAP.
Don't be silly. If I say that I think it's reasonable that there are ticket inspectors on buses, and passport control at airports, is that a symptom of a wider hope on my part that we become a "papers demanding society"?
Lots on here seem to want an ID card or certificate relating to your health that can be demanded at will for very normal activities.
That strikes me as a very illiberal development. I am 100% against it. Incidentally, I also can't see many employers going for it.
It is a simple, obvious and proportionate way of very effectively reducing exposure to the risk of life threatening illness. You can pretend that nobody would genuinely think that, and it must be a mask for a wider plan to control and enslave the population, if you like. Employers have duties of care to their employees and customers which make it likely that they would be huge enthusiasts for the idea if they or their insurers have any sense.
I don't understand the problem. We have had this horrendous virus which has destroyed our way of life. The only way to get back to normal is got get as many people vaccinated as quickly as possible. Sadly our society has bred a sizeable minority who think the rules don't apply to them, and just as they are helping spread the pox now they can help to reinfect us all 28 Weeks Later-style.
So why shouldn't the people who think there is a society and that we all have responsibilities to each other demand the people allowed out to mix have also done their bit for the public good? If the anti-vaxxers and selfish gits don't want to play then they don't get allowed to come back out into society. No you can't come in my pub or cinema or board this plane. Sod off.
Getting vaccinated does nothing to prevent you spreading the pox. You would be being selfish in that you might take up an NHS bed. And that is something of course that most sentient beings would like to avoid, to say nothing of the actual illness which necessitates the visit.
I mean I can't really see this becoming my hobby horse but there is a lot of confusion around Covid so it's probably best not to make it any worse.
Are you sure? I mean, we know that the evidence that it does reduce spread is yet to be clearly established (because it couldn't be established in the trials), but there is considerable theoretical and historical evidence that it should, at the very least, considerably reduce spread.
We can't say for sure that it does yet, which is why the Government are emphasising that we can't assume it, but you seem to be saying that it is established that it does not do so, which is a very different stance indeed.
I don't see the problem with ID cards that can show things like Covid vaccination status. "You can't do x unless you show us y" is a problem because what? Liberty? How about my liberty in not catching Covid from some ignorant scrote?
Will, I think, be a very widely-held view. Protect my safety - or go whistle for my custom.
Genuinely surprised how many people want us to become a papers demanding society.
Not in my name. And I say this as someone who wants to be back to normal ASAP.
Don't be silly. If I say that I think it's reasonable that there are ticket inspectors on buses, and passport control at airports, is that a symptom of a wider hope on my part that we become a "papers demanding society"?
Lots on here seem to want an ID card or certificate relating to your health that can be demanded at will for very normal activities.
That strikes me as a very illiberal development. I am 100% against it. Incidentally, I also can't see many employers going for it.
It is a simple, obvious and proportionate way of very effectively reducing exposure to the risk of life threatening illness. You can pretend that nobody would genuinely think that, and it must be a mask for a wider plan to control and enslave the population, if you like. Employers have duties of care to their employees and customers which make it likely that they would be huge enthusiasts for the idea if they or their insurers have any sense.
I don't understand the problem. We have had this horrendous virus which has destroyed our way of life. The only way to get back to normal is got get as many people vaccinated as quickly as possible. Sadly our society has bred a sizeable minority who think the rules don't apply to them, and just as they are helping spread the pox now they can help to reinfect us all 28 Weeks Later-style.
So why shouldn't the people who think there is a society and that we all have responsibilities to each other demand the people allowed out to mix have also done their bit for the public good? If the anti-vaxxers and selfish gits don't want to play then they don't get allowed to come back out into society. No you can't come in my pub or cinema or board this plane. Sod off.
Getting vaccinated does nothing to prevent you spreading the pox. You would be being selfish in that you might take up an NHS bed. And that is something of course that most sentient beings would like to avoid, to say nothing of the actual illness which necessitates the visit.
I mean I can't really see this becoming my hobby horse but there is a lot of confusion around Covid so it's probably best not to make it any worse.
Not sure whether we know yet whether vaccination prevents transmission. But it certainly reduces the likelihood because there would be no coughing.
Is a good point.
Also, over time it does prevent transmission, simply because, if you are vaccinated, you can't catch it. And if you can't catch it, you cannot pass it on. Or am I missing something?
I don't think we're going to have a big problem with anti-vaxxers in this country.
The bigger challenge is that given our "open" economy we have gross immigration in the range of 400-600k a year from all over the world, and many many more business visitors and tourists.
That means as long as Covid-19 circulates in the wider world, it will occasionally flare up again here too. We need a much better strategy for visitors, tourists and immigrants - probably certificates of their own.
Vaccine passports to enter the UK, it's really not that difficult.
In order to protect the NHS, though. Because we can't have a lot of people coming here and then they overwhelm the NHS.
Because of course we don't need people to be vaccinated to stop spreading the virus.
If we have achieved 80-90% of eligible people vaccinated then it's a much smaller issue.
It is of course but the debate around vaccinations is in danger of veering into the "vaccinate to stop giving someone else the virus".
Which is not the case.
It does become that eventually because the amount of virus in circulation drops and the R value drops to almost 0. Again, vaccines are both an individual and collective responsibility which is why the nudge method makes a lot of sense.
Absolutely agree. But does the amount of virus in circulation change if people are vaccinated? If people are infected and have had the jab XX% of them will not show symptoms although they will still have had (and could possibly pass on) the virus.
Yes, because of reduced viral shedding and a huge reduction in viral load in people who have had the vaccine but also test positive. The latter is mainly thought to be the reason behind why people who have been vaccinated don't suffer severe symptoms, the incidental antibodies bind to the spike protein very quickly and prevent a serious case.
That results in a huge reduction in the overall R value.
Our rabbit needs to present his vaccination card* when he wants to stay in his holiday accommodation, to demonstrate that he isn't a health risk to the other guests.
No reason why this shouldn't apply to humans too.
*OK, so we show it on his behalf. If we let him look after it he would start to eat it.
Well, if they will insist on printing them on carrot.....
I don't see the problem with ID cards that can show things like Covid vaccination status. "You can't do x unless you show us y" is a problem because what? Liberty? How about my liberty in not catching Covid from some ignorant scrote?
Will, I think, be a very widely-held view. Protect my safety - or go whistle for my custom.
Genuinely surprised how many people want us to become a papers demanding society.
Not in my name. And I say this as someone who wants to be back to normal ASAP.
Don't be silly. If I say that I think it's reasonable that there are ticket inspectors on buses, and passport control at airports, is that a symptom of a wider hope on my part that we become a "papers demanding society"?
Lots on here seem to want an ID card or certificate relating to your health that can be demanded at will for very normal activities.
That strikes me as a very illiberal development. I am 100% against it. Incidentally, I also can't see many employers going for it.
It is a simple, obvious and proportionate way of very effectively reducing exposure to the risk of life threatening illness. You can pretend that nobody would genuinely think that, and it must be a mask for a wider plan to control and enslave the population, if you like. Employers have duties of care to their employees and customers which make it likely that they would be huge enthusiasts for the idea if they or their insurers have any sense.
I don't understand the problem. We have had this horrendous virus which has destroyed our way of life. The only way to get back to normal is got get as many people vaccinated as quickly as possible. Sadly our society has bred a sizeable minority who think the rules don't apply to them, and just as they are helping spread the pox now they can help to reinfect us all 28 Weeks Later-style.
So why shouldn't the people who think there is a society and that we all have responsibilities to each other demand the people allowed out to mix have also done their bit for the public good? If the anti-vaxxers and selfish gits don't want to play then they don't get allowed to come back out into society. No you can't come in my pub or cinema or board this plane. Sod off.
Getting vaccinated does nothing to prevent you spreading the pox. You would be being selfish in that you might take up an NHS bed. And that is something of course that most sentient beings would like to avoid, to say nothing of the actual illness which necessitates the visit.
I mean I can't really see this becoming my hobby horse but there is a lot of confusion around Covid so it's probably best not to make it any worse.
Are you sure? I mean, we know that the evidence that it does reduce spread is yet to be clearly established (because it couldn't be established in the trials), but there is considerable theoretical and historical evidence that it should, at the very least, considerably reduce spread.
We can't say for sure that it does yet, which is why the Government are emphasising that we can't assume it, but you seem to be saying that it is established that it does not do so, which is a very different stance indeed.
No not at all. We don't know. We don't know what we don't know.
Just that a lot of the discourse, including from the government, proceeds from the premise that we do know. And that we do know it does.
Does this matter? Well not hugely I suppose just that it is one more element of disinformation the government is using to achieve its (wholly laudable) aim of reducing the effect of the virus in society, and specifically its effect on the NHS.
Off-topic, but my ex has just sent me a message saying "Do you know how to use the dark web, I need your help with something"!
Lol, it was more comfortable when she was just asking me for money...
LOL I obviously don't wish to make any comments on your relationship but it would be interesting to ask her, via email, why. And see if she responds on email.
ON topic, of COURSE you will need a vaccine visa to travel, eat out, use public transport, stay in a hotel, fly, take a cab, do any jobs requiring interaction, go to the theatre, basically live.
We had ID cards in the War, we will have vaccine visas for a few years. Other countries are already on the case, not just rule-following Asians.
You will probably be allowed, at least at first, to refuse a vaccine, but then you won't get your Vaccine Visa, meaning it will be almost impossible to do most normal things. A tiny percentage will hold out.
I don't see the problem with ID cards that can show things like Covid vaccination status. "You can't do x unless you show us y" is a problem because what? Liberty? How about my liberty in not catching Covid from some ignorant scrote?
Will, I think, be a very widely-held view. Protect my safety - or go whistle for my custom.
Genuinely surprised how many people want us to become a papers demanding society.
Not in my name. And I say this as someone who wants to be back to normal ASAP.
Don't be silly. If I say that I think it's reasonable that there are ticket inspectors on buses, and passport control at airports, is that a symptom of a wider hope on my part that we become a "papers demanding society"?
Lots on here seem to want an ID card or certificate relating to your health that can be demanded at will for very normal activities.
That strikes me as a very illiberal development. I am 100% against it. Incidentally, I also can't see many employers going for it.
It is a simple, obvious and proportionate way of very effectively reducing exposure to the risk of life threatening illness. You can pretend that nobody would genuinely think that, and it must be a mask for a wider plan to control and enslave the population, if you like. Employers have duties of care to their employees and customers which make it likely that they would be huge enthusiasts for the idea if they or their insurers have any sense.
I don't understand the problem. We have had this horrendous virus which has destroyed our way of life. The only way to get back to normal is got get as many people vaccinated as quickly as possible. Sadly our society has bred a sizeable minority who think the rules don't apply to them, and just as they are helping spread the pox now they can help to reinfect us all 28 Weeks Later-style.
So why shouldn't the people who think there is a society and that we all have responsibilities to each other demand the people allowed out to mix have also done their bit for the public good? If the anti-vaxxers and selfish gits don't want to play then they don't get allowed to come back out into society. No you can't come in my pub or cinema or board this plane. Sod off.
Getting vaccinated does nothing to prevent you spreading the pox. You would be being selfish in that you might take up an NHS bed. And that is something of course that most sentient beings would like to avoid, to say nothing of the actual illness which necessitates the visit.
I mean I can't really see this becoming my hobby horse but there is a lot of confusion around Covid so it's probably best not to make it any worse.
Not sure whether we know yet whether vaccination prevents transmission. But it certainly reduces the likelihood because there would be no coughing.
Is a good point.
Also, over time it does prevent transmission, simply because, if you are vaccinated, you can't catch it. And if you can't catch it, you cannot pass it on. Or am I missing something?
Is anyone concerned that the concept of vaccination discrimination might be somewhat catnippy to the anti vaxxers?
Removing compulsion is IMO MORE important with the rise of scepticism, not less.
Just tell them that the vaccine will be reserved for the *privileged members* of the inner council of the ruling body that tells the Illuminati what to order the Lizard Men to do.....
Mr. gealbhan, ah, I remember seeing Sacred Texts ages ago. takes me back.
Fantasy can lay claim to being the oldest of the genres.
Unless the flatearther readership believed all this for real.
Tolkien was a Saxon scholar? This isn’t Saxon, though the old Pagan does read across from place to place to an extent between Norse/Germanic and Saxon.
He is plagiarising more than just the names though isn’t he. And more than half century from Wagner’s visit. And a few decades from Ibsen/Greig
I don't think we're going to have a big problem with anti-vaxxers in this country.
The bigger challenge is that given our "open" economy we have gross immigration in the range of 400-600k a year from all over the world, and many many more business visitors and tourists.
That means as long as Covid-19 circulates in the wider world, it will occasionally flare up again here too. We need a much better strategy for visitors, tourists and immigrants - probably certificates of their own.
Vaccine passports to enter the UK, it's really not that difficult.
In order to protect the NHS, though. Because we can't have a lot of people coming here and then they overwhelm the NHS.
Because of course we don't need people to be vaccinated to stop spreading the virus.
If we have achieved 80-90% of eligible people vaccinated then it's a much smaller issue.
It is of course but the debate around vaccinations is in danger of veering into the "vaccinate to stop giving someone else the virus".
Which is not the case.
It does become that eventually because the amount of virus in circulation drops and the R value drops to almost 0. Again, vaccines are both an individual and collective responsibility which is why the nudge method makes a lot of sense.
Absolutely agree. But does the amount of virus in circulation change if people are vaccinated? If people are infected and have had the jab XX% of them will not show symptoms although they will still have had (and could possibly pass on) the virus.
Yes, because of reduced viral shedding and a huge reduction in viral load in people who have had the vaccine but also test positive. The latter is mainly thought to be the reason behind why people who have been vaccinated don't suffer severe symptoms, the incidental antibodies bind to the spike protein very quickly and prevent a serious case.
That results in a huge reduction in the overall R value.
Is another good point. I would just prefer this to be set out rather than rely on disinformation.
I don't see the problem with ID cards that can show things like Covid vaccination status. "You can't do x unless you show us y" is a problem because what? Liberty? How about my liberty in not catching Covid from some ignorant scrote?
Will, I think, be a very widely-held view. Protect my safety - or go whistle for my custom.
Genuinely surprised how many people want us to become a papers demanding society.
Not in my name. And I say this as someone who wants to be back to normal ASAP.
Don't be silly. If I say that I think it's reasonable that there are ticket inspectors on buses, and passport control at airports, is that a symptom of a wider hope on my part that we become a "papers demanding society"?
Lots on here seem to want an ID card or certificate relating to your health that can be demanded at will for very normal activities.
That strikes me as a very illiberal development. I am 100% against it. Incidentally, I also can't see many employers going for it.
It is a simple, obvious and proportionate way of very effectively reducing exposure to the risk of life threatening illness. You can pretend that nobody would genuinely think that, and it must be a mask for a wider plan to control and enslave the population, if you like. Employers have duties of care to their employees and customers which make it likely that they would be huge enthusiasts for the idea if they or their insurers have any sense.
I don't understand the problem. We have had this horrendous virus which has destroyed our way of life. The only way to get back to normal is got get as many people vaccinated as quickly as possible. Sadly our society has bred a sizeable minority who think the rules don't apply to them, and just as they are helping spread the pox now they can help to reinfect us all 28 Weeks Later-style.
So why shouldn't the people who think there is a society and that we all have responsibilities to each other demand the people allowed out to mix have also done their bit for the public good? If the anti-vaxxers and selfish gits don't want to play then they don't get allowed to come back out into society. No you can't come in my pub or cinema or board this plane. Sod off.
Getting vaccinated does nothing to prevent you spreading the pox. You would be being selfish in that you might take up an NHS bed. And that is something of course that most sentient beings would like to avoid, to say nothing of the actual illness which necessitates the visit.
I mean I can't really see this becoming my hobby horse but there is a lot of confusion around Covid so it's probably best not to make it any worse.
Are you sure? I mean, we know that the evidence that it does reduce spread is yet to be clearly established (because it couldn't be established in the trials), but there is considerable theoretical and historical evidence that it should, at the very least, considerably reduce spread.
We can't say for sure that it does yet, which is why the Government are emphasising that we can't assume it, but you seem to be saying that it is established that it does not do so, which is a very different stance indeed.
Agreed, the trials showed a reduction in viral shedding, likely due to a huge reduction in viral load for people who have had the vaccine. That will theoretically reduce the infectiousness of people who have been immunised, it's one of the few arguments in favour of not moving to the 12 week gap for Pfizer IMO as it generates a much stronger immune response to keep viral load down.
I don't see the problem with ID cards that can show things like Covid vaccination status. "You can't do x unless you show us y" is a problem because what? Liberty? How about my liberty in not catching Covid from some ignorant scrote?
Will, I think, be a very widely-held view. Protect my safety - or go whistle for my custom.
Genuinely surprised how many people want us to become a papers demanding society.
Not in my name. And I say this as someone who wants to be back to normal ASAP.
Don't be silly. If I say that I think it's reasonable that there are ticket inspectors on buses, and passport control at airports, is that a symptom of a wider hope on my part that we become a "papers demanding society"?
Lots on here seem to want an ID card or certificate relating to your health that can be demanded at will for very normal activities.
That strikes me as a very illiberal development. I am 100% against it. Incidentally, I also can't see many employers going for it.
It is a simple, obvious and proportionate way of very effectively reducing exposure to the risk of life threatening illness. You can pretend that nobody would genuinely think that, and it must be a mask for a wider plan to control and enslave the population, if you like. Employers have duties of care to their employees and customers which make it likely that they would be huge enthusiasts for the idea if they or their insurers have any sense.
I don't understand the problem. We have had this horrendous virus which has destroyed our way of life. The only way to get back to normal is got get as many people vaccinated as quickly as possible. Sadly our society has bred a sizeable minority who think the rules don't apply to them, and just as they are helping spread the pox now they can help to reinfect us all 28 Weeks Later-style.
So why shouldn't the people who think there is a society and that we all have responsibilities to each other demand the people allowed out to mix have also done their bit for the public good? If the anti-vaxxers and selfish gits don't want to play then they don't get allowed to come back out into society. No you can't come in my pub or cinema or board this plane. Sod off.
Getting vaccinated does nothing to prevent you spreading the pox. You would be being selfish in that you might take up an NHS bed. And that is something of course that most sentient beings would like to avoid, to say nothing of the actual illness which necessitates the visit.
I mean I can't really see this becoming my hobby horse but there is a lot of confusion around Covid so it's probably best not to make it any worse.
Are you sure? I mean, we know that the evidence that it does reduce spread is yet to be clearly established (because it couldn't be established in the trials), but there is considerable theoretical and historical evidence that it should, at the very least, considerably reduce spread.
We can't say for sure that it does yet, which is why the Government are emphasising that we can't assume it, but you seem to be saying that it is established that it does not do so, which is a very different stance indeed.
Indeed. If you have an quick immune response to an infection due to vaccination, then any infecting viruses are prevented from multiplying in your body, and the lack of symptoms will reduce transmission though coughing, etc. of the few viruses that you may still be carrying. This doesn't rule out onward transmission, but logic says that it is highly likely to considerably reduce it.
Edit: Obviously vaccination doesn't always work, so it makes sense to continue to social distance to some extent while the disease is still prevalent even after being vaccinated.
ON topic, of COURSE you will need a vaccine visa to travel, eat out, use public transport, stay in a hotel, fly, take a cab, do any jobs requiring interaction, go to the theatre, basically live.
We had ID cards in the War, we will have vaccine visas for a few years. Other countries are already on the case, not just rule-following Asians.
You will probably be allowed, at least at first, to refuse a vaccine, but then you won't get your Vaccine Visa, meaning it will be almost impossible to do most normal things. A tiny percentage will hold out.
I think there will be considerable resistance in government to the idea. But my worry, Andy, is that our government neglects to do it, time passes, and we discover that out freedoms to visit other countries have been curtailed. Then the government, belatedly seeing the way the wind is blowing, is forced to play catch-up and runs round spending oodles trying to fix a problem that it could have easily anticipated.
The wider issue will be not just air travel, but where else you will have to show a vaccination certificate before access is allowed. Cinemas? Nightclubs? Restaurants? Work in hospitality? Access to shops? It is quite easy to envisage an economy where you are very largely excluded without such a certificate. It may not be compulsory - but there will nonetheless be health apartheid.
Pretty sure it will be deemed illegal to favour customers in such a way.
Not sure on what legal grounds you say that. "Unvaccinated" is not a protected characteristic under the Equality Act or otherwise and I can't see Parliament legislating to make it so. You could try and argue that anti-vaxx is a deeply held philosophical belief and shoehorn it it into "religion or philosophical belief" that way but it's not convincing and there would be a legitimate health ground for wht would be, at worse, indirect discrimination.
I think there will be a small (but vocal) cohort who will refuse for religious reasons, because most of the vaccines are developed with or tested via cell lines developed from aborted fetal cells. My mum is in this category, I thought about it considerably before deciding that I wouldn't regard it as a reason not to be vaccinated. I'm very strongly pro-life, but personally take the view that now those cell lines exist, to refuse to use them and therefore allow people to die of a preventable disease is worse than taking the moral high ground just because the way those cell lines were created is morally appalling.
Discriminating against those who refuse a vaccine for this reason is clearly religious discrimination, and so challenges should succeed under the Equality Act.
Whilst not being personal , it is crazy in 21st century Britain to have "religious " exemptions . Insulting to those who have moral objections but dont believe in a man in the sky to back them up. Just dont do "let me see your papers" crap laws in the first place at all
I agree - but what about when other nations demand it of us as a condition of entry into their country?
well there is not a lot we can do about that but the UK should never be a "papers" society
I should explain to my fellow posters that I have not been posting a lot recently mainly as I have little knowledge of US politics, other than Trump needs to disappear from the scene, but also I am experiencing a very serious and difficult mental health issue with a member of my family, To make matters worse he lives abroad and neither my wife or I can go to help him and his wife
He is likely to enter mental health care with the possibility even of ECT treatment, so at present my attention is somewhat elsewhere and I do recoil at some occasional unfair references to mental health accusations to people who are not suffering the severe consequences of such an issue
I would though confirm that I am moving to a more neutral position with HMG and if Starmer can occupy the middle ground, accept Brexit, and leave behind the extremes in his party, than my vote in 2024 will be up for grabs, as long as I keep taking my pills and get vaccinated
ON topic, of COURSE you will need a vaccine visa to travel, eat out, use public transport, stay in a hotel, fly, take a cab, do any jobs requiring interaction, go to the theatre, basically live.
We had ID cards in the War, we will have vaccine visas for a few years. Other countries are already on the case, not just rule-following Asians.
You will probably be allowed, at least at first, to refuse a vaccine, but then you won't get your Vaccine Visa, meaning it will be almost impossible to do most normal things. A tiny percentage will hold out.
Anyone who wants to fly abroad will need some kind of vaccine document, for sure. That's basically 80% of the country right there, the Britons who enjoy a foreign holiday.
My best guess is that it will be an app, you can show to authorities, on your smartphone. The Australians have a very efficient e-visa service, which works smoothly, just like this.
Once it is widely established - for travellers, I suspect it will be used in many other areas of life, as well. And it will be popular, because it will enable us all to get nearer to "normality" - eg flying to Majorca for a nice break.
I would suggest that a certificate is not needed - simply let passport control at airports/ports access an electronic list of those vaccinated, which can be uploaded from primary care data. However, given I work with health data and am aware of such interesting events as people having multiple deaths or giving birth aged 93, I accept that may not be foolproof.
A sufficiently successful vaccination programme will also make certification unnecessary - the goal should be to reach herd immunity (indeed, beyond the minimum level) through mass vaccination and eradicate Covid in any meaningful sense in this country (sporadic cases may pop up, but Covid will have nowhere to go). Once that is done, airlines will no more want to see proof of a Covid vaccination than of a smallpox vaccination. There will of course be a period of time when many are vaccinated but Covid is still a threat, so in the short term some proof may be useful.
Also, I feel your pain re your friend. My father in law, whom I like very much and go to (well, used to when that was possible) the pub with on a fairly regular basis is doubtful the moon landings ever took place. He says this mostly to rile another friend who never fails to bite, but also seems to believe it himself. I, too, after once setting out why I believe him to be wrong, no longer engage on this.
I have found, in the past, that using the arguments of denialism too deny the existence of something obvious to be quite useful.
So I deny the existence of Australia.
That's a good idea. Next time it comes up I'll say that I don't believe the moon exists and see where that takes us
No. You need to deny something you can't obviously see. The moon will be seen that evening.
Deny Australia. Hell, deny the USA. Something you can't see.
Moon you say? No, I can't see it. Over there? No. Are you getting confused with a streetlight? Maybe some dust in your eye? Had few too many drinks?
Australia is *fun* to deny....
- Country built by dumping unwanted criminals accidentally ends up a liberal democracy. Yeah right. - Country with a mammal that lays eggs, has a ducks beak and poisonous.... thumbs. Yeah right - Country that fought and lost a war against flightless birds. Yeah right.
Not to mention the absurd accent, which is clearly the product of an over-active imagination. There are no actual Australians; they are all just actors, who are obviously sworn to secrecy at all times on pain of losing their cushy jobs.
Yes.
Not mention
- The ridiculous made up game that is rugby-in-shirts-with-no-sleeves. - A former prime ministers who defined the national identity in terms of "mateship"... - This farcical fake philosophy department - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ojhtq51Ya8
I don't see the problem with ID cards that can show things like Covid vaccination status. "You can't do x unless you show us y" is a problem because what? Liberty? How about my liberty in not catching Covid from some ignorant scrote?
Will, I think, be a very widely-held view. Protect my safety - or go whistle for my custom.
Genuinely surprised how many people want us to become a papers demanding society.
Not in my name. And I say this as someone who wants to be back to normal ASAP.
Don't be silly. If I say that I think it's reasonable that there are ticket inspectors on buses, and passport control at airports, is that a symptom of a wider hope on my part that we become a "papers demanding society"?
Lots on here seem to want an ID card or certificate relating to your health that can be demanded at will for very normal activities.
That strikes me as a very illiberal development. I am 100% against it. Incidentally, I also can't see many employers going for it.
It is a simple, obvious and proportionate way of very effectively reducing exposure to the risk of life threatening illness. You can pretend that nobody would genuinely think that, and it must be a mask for a wider plan to control and enslave the population, if you like. Employers have duties of care to their employees and customers which make it likely that they would be huge enthusiasts for the idea if they or their insurers have any sense.
I don't understand the problem. We have had this horrendous virus which has destroyed our way of life. The only way to get back to normal is got get as many people vaccinated as quickly as possible. Sadly our society has bred a sizeable minority who think the rules don't apply to them, and just as they are helping spread the pox now they can help to reinfect us all 28 Weeks Later-style.
So why shouldn't the people who think there is a society and that we all have responsibilities to each other demand the people allowed out to mix have also done their bit for the public good? If the anti-vaxxers and selfish gits don't want to play then they don't get allowed to come back out into society. No you can't come in my pub or cinema or board this plane. Sod off.
Getting vaccinated does nothing to prevent you spreading the pox. You would be being selfish in that you might take up an NHS bed. And that is something of course that most sentient beings would like to avoid, to say nothing of the actual illness which necessitates the visit.
I mean I can't really see this becoming my hobby horse but there is a lot of confusion around Covid so it's probably best not to make it any worse.
"Getting vaccinated does nothing to prevent you spreading the pox" is wrong. We have little evidence that getting vaccinated does anything to prevent you spreading the pox, but what evidence there is (from the AZ vaccine) is that it at least reduces the chance of your spreading it.
ON topic, of COURSE you will need a vaccine visa to travel, eat out, use public transport, stay in a hotel, fly, take a cab, do any jobs requiring interaction, go to the theatre, basically live.
We had ID cards in the War, we will have vaccine visas for a few years. Other countries are already on the case, not just rule-following Asians.
You will probably be allowed, at least at first, to refuse a vaccine, but then you won't get your Vaccine Visa, meaning it will be almost impossible to do most normal things. A tiny percentage will hold out.
I think there will be considerable resistance in government to the idea. But my worry, Andy, is that our government neglects to do it, time passes, and we discover that out freedoms to visit other countries have been curtailed. Then the government, belatedly seeing the way the wind is blowing, is forced to play catch-up and runs round spending oodles trying to fix a problem that it could have easily anticipated.
All they have to do at this point is keep reliable records of who has been vaccinated. The cards could be distributed later (on demand) if necessary.
I don't see the problem with ID cards that can show things like Covid vaccination status. "You can't do x unless you show us y" is a problem because what? Liberty? How about my liberty in not catching Covid from some ignorant scrote?
Will, I think, be a very widely-held view. Protect my safety - or go whistle for my custom.
Genuinely surprised how many people want us to become a papers demanding society.
Not in my name. And I say this as someone who wants to be back to normal ASAP.
Don't be silly. If I say that I think it's reasonable that there are ticket inspectors on buses, and passport control at airports, is that a symptom of a wider hope on my part that we become a "papers demanding society"?
Lots on here seem to want an ID card or certificate relating to your health that can be demanded at will for very normal activities.
That strikes me as a very illiberal development. I am 100% against it. Incidentally, I also can't see many employers going for it.
It is a simple, obvious and proportionate way of very effectively reducing exposure to the risk of life threatening illness. You can pretend that nobody would genuinely think that, and it must be a mask for a wider plan to control and enslave the population, if you like. Employers have duties of care to their employees and customers which make it likely that they would be huge enthusiasts for the idea if they or their insurers have any sense.
How? The vast majority of people will be vaccinated. Who is the risk/liability to if most are protected, but there are refusenik some idiots?
We don't ask people to prove they have an MMR. And many don't....
ON topic, of COURSE you will need a vaccine visa to travel, eat out, use public transport, stay in a hotel, fly, take a cab, do any jobs requiring interaction, go to the theatre, basically live.
We had ID cards in the War, we will have vaccine visas for a few years. Other countries are already on the case, not just rule-following Asians.
You will probably be allowed, at least at first, to refuse a vaccine, but then you won't get your Vaccine Visa, meaning it will be almost impossible to do most normal things. A tiny percentage will hold out.
Anyone who wants to fly abroad will need some kind of vaccine document, for sure. That's basically 80% of the country right there, the Britons who enjoy a foreign holiday.
My best guess is that it will be an app, you can show to authorities, on your smartphone. The Australians have a very efficient e-visa service, which works smoothly, just like this.
Once it is widely established - for travellers, I suspect it will be used in many other areas of life, as well. And it will be popular, because it will enable us all to get nearer to "normality" - eg flying to Majorca for a nice break.
Bring it on.
I don't say you are wrong but according to that calculator that is/was going around that would rule out people under 40 going on their summer holidays.
Not sure that is where the various governments want to be.
"A ban on people in England walking or exercising with anyone from outside their household is looking increasingly likely, with sources telling the Guardian it is “under active consideration’’ and “could be introduced imminently”"
That's it. That's my social life gone. They want me to be entirely alone until March
I would suggest that a certificate is not needed - simply let passport control at airports/ports access an electronic list of those vaccinated, which can be uploaded from primary care data. However, given I work with health data and am aware of such interesting events as people having multiple deaths or giving birth aged 93, I accept that may not be foolproof.
A sufficiently successful vaccination programme will also make certification unnecessary - the goal should be to reach herd immunity (indeed, beyond the minimum level) through mass vaccination and eradicate Covid in any meaningful sense in this country (sporadic cases may pop up, but Covid will have nowhere to go). Once that is done, airlines will no more want to see proof of a Covid vaccination than of a smallpox vaccination. There will of course be a period of time when many are vaccinated but Covid is still a threat, so in the short term some proof may be useful.
Also, I feel your pain re your friend. My father in law, whom I like very much and go to (well, used to when that was possible) the pub with on a fairly regular basis is doubtful the moon landings ever took place. He says this mostly to rile another friend who never fails to bite, but also seems to believe it himself. I, too, after once setting out why I believe him to be wrong, no longer engage on this.
I have found, in the past, that using the arguments of denialism too deny the existence of something obvious to be quite useful.
So I deny the existence of Australia.
That's a good idea. Next time it comes up I'll say that I don't believe the moon exists and see where that takes us
No. You need to deny something you can't obviously see. The moon will be seen that evening.
Deny Australia. Hell, deny the USA. Something you can't see.
Moon you say? No, I can't see it. Over there? No. Are you getting confused with a streetlight? Maybe some dust in your eye? Had few too many drinks?
Australia is *fun* to deny....
- Country built by dumping unwanted criminals accidentally ends up a liberal democracy. Yeah right. - Country with a mammal that lays eggs, has a ducks beak and poisonous.... thumbs. Yeah right - Country that fought and lost a war against flightless birds. Yeah right.
Not to mention the absurd accent, which is clearly the product of an over-active imagination. There are no actual Australians; they are all just actors, who are obviously sworn to secrecy at all times on pain of losing their cushy jobs.
So who invented the idea Australia, and where do they make the propaganda films ?
ON topic, of COURSE you will need a vaccine visa to travel, eat out, use public transport, stay in a hotel, fly, take a cab, do any jobs requiring interaction, go to the theatre, basically live.
We had ID cards in the War, we will have vaccine visas for a few years. Other countries are already on the case, not just rule-following Asians.
You will probably be allowed, at least at first, to refuse a vaccine, but then you won't get your Vaccine Visa, meaning it will be almost impossible to do most normal things. A tiny percentage will hold out.
Anyone who wants to fly abroad will need some kind of vaccine document, for sure. That's basically 80% of the country right there, the Britons who enjoy a foreign holiday.
My best guess is that it will be an app, you can show to authorities, on your smartphone. The Australians have a very efficient e-visa service, which works smoothly, just like this.
Once it is widely established - for travellers, I suspect it will be used in many other areas of life, as well. And it will be popular, because it will enable us all to get nearer to "normality" - eg flying to Majorca for a nice break.
Bring it on.
I don't say you are wrong but according to that calculator that is/was going around that would rule out people under 40 going on their summer holidays.
Not sure that is where the various governments want to be.
Interesting - at 2m doses a week a 40yr old with no u/l health problems would be vaccinated by May. At 1m/week it would be by October.
"A ban on people in England walking or exercising with anyone from outside their household is looking increasingly likely, with sources telling the Guardian it is “under active consideration’’ and “could be introduced imminently”"
That's it. That's my social life gone. They want me to be entirely alone until March
"A ban on people in England walking or exercising with anyone from outside their household is looking increasingly likely, with sources telling the Guardian it is “under active consideration’’ and “could be introduced imminently”"
That's it. That's my social life gone. They want me to be entirely alone until March
ON topic, of COURSE you will need a vaccine visa to travel, eat out, use public transport, stay in a hotel, fly, take a cab, do any jobs requiring interaction, go to the theatre, basically live.
We had ID cards in the War, we will have vaccine visas for a few years. Other countries are already on the case, not just rule-following Asians.
You will probably be allowed, at least at first, to refuse a vaccine, but then you won't get your Vaccine Visa, meaning it will be almost impossible to do most normal things. A tiny percentage will hold out.
Anyone who wants to fly abroad will need some kind of vaccine document, for sure. That's basically 80% of the country right there, the Britons who enjoy a foreign holiday.
My best guess is that it will be an app, you can show to authorities, on your smartphone. The Australians have a very efficient e-visa service, which works smoothly, just like this.
Once it is widely established - for travellers, I suspect it will be used in many other areas of life, as well. And it will be popular, because it will enable us all to get nearer to "normality" - eg flying to Majorca for a nice break.
Bring it on.
I don't say you are wrong but according to that calculator that is/was going around that would rule out people under 40 going on their summer holidays.
Not sure that is where the various governments want to be.
Interesting - at 2m doses a week a 40yr old with no u/l health problems would be vaccinated by May. At 1m/week it would be by October.
It will be more than 2m per week. AZ alone are set to supply that many from next week so we'd be leaving doses unused which I think would be a huge vote loser.
I don't think we're going to have a big problem with anti-vaxxers in this country.
The bigger challenge is that given our "open" economy we have gross immigration in the range of 400-600k a year from all over the world, and many many more business visitors and tourists.
That means as long as Covid-19 circulates in the wider world, it will occasionally flare up again here too. We need a much better strategy for visitors, tourists and immigrants - probably certificates of their own.
Vaccine passports to enter the UK, it's really not that difficult.
In order to protect the NHS, though. Because we can't have a lot of people coming here and then they overwhelm the NHS.
Because of course we don't need people to be vaccinated to stop spreading the virus.
If we have achieved 80-90% of eligible people vaccinated then it's a much smaller issue.
It is of course but the debate around vaccinations is in danger of veering into the "vaccinate to stop giving someone else the virus".
Which is not the case.
We don't know if it is the case. My understanding is that with most diseases it is the case. But of course they have not tested for that yet.
That is the point. They don't know. It might it might not ( @MaxPB has given some evidence of relative viral shedding).
But we will likely hear a lot about people being selfish by not getting vaccinated (no idea why people wouldn't want to but there you go). Which implies that without a vaccination people pass on the virus, while with one people won't.
That is simply not true....
No, rather it is not yet conclusively demonstrated. But it is very likely that vaccination reduces infectivity.
ON topic, of COURSE you will need a vaccine visa to travel, eat out, use public transport, stay in a hotel, fly, take a cab, do any jobs requiring interaction, go to the theatre, basically live.
We had ID cards in the War, we will have vaccine visas for a few years. Other countries are already on the case, not just rule-following Asians.
You will probably be allowed, at least at first, to refuse a vaccine, but then you won't get your Vaccine Visa, meaning it will be almost impossible to do most normal things. A tiny percentage will hold out.
Anyone who wants to fly abroad will need some kind of vaccine document, for sure. That's basically 80% of the country right there, the Britons who enjoy a foreign holiday.
My best guess is that it will be an app, you can show to authorities, on your smartphone. The Australians have a very efficient e-visa service, which works smoothly, just like this.
Once it is widely established - for travellers, I suspect it will be used in many other areas of life, as well. And it will be popular, because it will enable us all to get nearer to "normality" - eg flying to Majorca for a nice break.
Bring it on.
I don't say you are wrong but according to that calculator that is/was going around that would rule out people under 40 going on their summer holidays.
Not sure that is where the various governments want to be.
That's going to go down well with Mr Contrarian; Granny & Grandad went to Spain and I had to put up with Blackpool!
I confidently expect Mrs C and I will not be allowed to see our family in Thailand with a) certificates of vaccination and b) a negative test.... a quick, cheap and reliable will very shortly be available.
ON topic, of COURSE you will need a vaccine visa to travel, eat out, use public transport, stay in a hotel, fly, take a cab, do any jobs requiring interaction, go to the theatre, basically live.
We had ID cards in the War, we will have vaccine visas for a few years. Other countries are already on the case, not just rule-following Asians.
You will probably be allowed, at least at first, to refuse a vaccine, but then you won't get your Vaccine Visa, meaning it will be almost impossible to do most normal things. A tiny percentage will hold out.
Anyone who wants to fly abroad will need some kind of vaccine document, for sure. That's basically 80% of the country right there, the Britons who enjoy a foreign holiday.
My best guess is that it will be an app, you can show to authorities, on your smartphone. The Australians have a very efficient e-visa service, which works smoothly, just like this.
Once it is widely established - for travellers, I suspect it will be used in many other areas of life, as well. And it will be popular, because it will enable us all to get nearer to "normality" - eg flying to Majorca for a nice break.
Bring it on.
I don't say you are wrong but according to that calculator that is/was going around that would rule out people under 40 going on their summer holidays.
Not sure that is where the various governments want to be.
I guess this summer many governments/airlines will content themselves with a recent negative PCR test, until they can introduce longer-lasting vax certificate apps. But the latter are much more reassuring, so I can't see how they won't arrive, eventually
I would suggest that a certificate is not needed - simply let passport control at airports/ports access an electronic list of those vaccinated, which can be uploaded from primary care data. However, given I work with health data and am aware of such interesting events as people having multiple deaths or giving birth aged 93, I accept that may not be foolproof.
A sufficiently successful vaccination programme will also make certification unnecessary - the goal should be to reach herd immunity (indeed, beyond the minimum level) through mass vaccination and eradicate Covid in any meaningful sense in this country (sporadic cases may pop up, but Covid will have nowhere to go). Once that is done, airlines will no more want to see proof of a Covid vaccination than of a smallpox vaccination. There will of course be a period of time when many are vaccinated but Covid is still a threat, so in the short term some proof may be useful.
Also, I feel your pain re your friend. My father in law, whom I like very much and go to (well, used to when that was possible) the pub with on a fairly regular basis is doubtful the moon landings ever took place. He says this mostly to rile another friend who never fails to bite, but also seems to believe it himself. I, too, after once setting out why I believe him to be wrong, no longer engage on this.
I have found, in the past, that using the arguments of denialism too deny the existence of something obvious to be quite useful.
So I deny the existence of Australia.
That's a good idea. Next time it comes up I'll say that I don't believe the moon exists and see where that takes us
No. You need to deny something you can't obviously see. The moon will be seen that evening.
Deny Australia. Hell, deny the USA. Something you can't see.
Moon you say? No, I can't see it. Over there? No. Are you getting confused with a streetlight? Maybe some dust in your eye? Had few too many drinks?
Australia is *fun* to deny....
- Country built by dumping unwanted criminals accidentally ends up a liberal democracy. Yeah right. - Country with a mammal that lays eggs, has a ducks beak and poisonous.... thumbs. Yeah right - Country that fought and lost a war against flightless birds. Yeah right.
Not to mention the absurd accent, which is clearly the product of an over-active imagination. There are no actual Australians; they are all just actors, who are obviously sworn to secrecy at all times on pain of losing their cushy jobs.
So who invented the idea Australia, and where do they make the propaganda films ?
The Lizard Men came up with it on their days off. We of the Grand Council have asked the Illuminati to keep a close eye on them. And find them more work....
It is crazy crap like this that risks exposing us all.
I would suggest that a certificate is not needed - simply let passport control at airports/ports access an electronic list of those vaccinated, which can be uploaded from primary care data. However, given I work with health data and am aware of such interesting events as people having multiple deaths or giving birth aged 93, I accept that may not be foolproof.
A sufficiently successful vaccination programme will also make certification unnecessary - the goal should be to reach herd immunity (indeed, beyond the minimum level) through mass vaccination and eradicate Covid in any meaningful sense in this country (sporadic cases may pop up, but Covid will have nowhere to go). Once that is done, airlines will no more want to see proof of a Covid vaccination than of a smallpox vaccination. There will of course be a period of time when many are vaccinated but Covid is still a threat, so in the short term some proof may be useful.
Also, I feel your pain re your friend. My father in law, whom I like very much and go to (well, used to when that was possible) the pub with on a fairly regular basis is doubtful the moon landings ever took place. He says this mostly to rile another friend who never fails to bite, but also seems to believe it himself. I, too, after once setting out why I believe him to be wrong, no longer engage on this.
I have found, in the past, that using the arguments of denialism too deny the existence of something obvious to be quite useful.
So I deny the existence of Australia.
That's a good idea. Next time it comes up I'll say that I don't believe the moon exists and see where that takes us
No. You need to deny something you can't obviously see. The moon will be seen that evening.
Deny Australia. Hell, deny the USA. Something you can't see.
Moon you say? No, I can't see it. Over there? No. Are you getting confused with a streetlight? Maybe some dust in your eye? Had few too many drinks?
Australia is *fun* to deny....
- Country built by dumping unwanted criminals accidentally ends up a liberal democracy. Yeah right. - Country with a mammal that lays eggs, has a ducks beak and poisonous.... thumbs. Yeah right - Country that fought and lost a war against flightless birds. Yeah right.
Not to mention the absurd accent, which is clearly the product of an over-active imagination. There are no actual Australians; they are all just actors, who are obviously sworn to secrecy at all times on pain of losing their cushy jobs.
So who invented the idea Australia, and where do they make the propaganda films ?
I don't see the problem with ID cards that can show things like Covid vaccination status. "You can't do x unless you show us y" is a problem because what? Liberty? How about my liberty in not catching Covid from some ignorant scrote?
Will, I think, be a very widely-held view. Protect my safety - or go whistle for my custom.
Genuinely surprised how many people want us to become a papers demanding society.
Not in my name. And I say this as someone who wants to be back to normal ASAP.
Don't be silly. If I say that I think it's reasonable that there are ticket inspectors on buses, and passport control at airports, is that a symptom of a wider hope on my part that we become a "papers demanding society"?
Lots on here seem to want an ID card or certificate relating to your health that can be demanded at will for very normal activities.
That strikes me as a very illiberal development. I am 100% against it. Incidentally, I also can't see many employers going for it.
It is a simple, obvious and proportionate way of very effectively reducing exposure to the risk of life threatening illness. You can pretend that nobody would genuinely think that, and it must be a mask for a wider plan to control and enslave the population, if you like. Employers have duties of care to their employees and customers which make it likely that they would be huge enthusiasts for the idea if they or their insurers have any sense.
I don't understand the problem. We have had this horrendous virus which has destroyed our way of life. The only way to get back to normal is got get as many people vaccinated as quickly as possible. Sadly our society has bred a sizeable minority who think the rules don't apply to them, and just as they are helping spread the pox now they can help to reinfect us all 28 Weeks Later-style.
So why shouldn't the people who think there is a society and that we all have responsibilities to each other demand the people allowed out to mix have also done their bit for the public good? If the anti-vaxxers and selfish gits don't want to play then they don't get allowed to come back out into society. No you can't come in my pub or cinema or board this plane. Sod off.
Getting vaccinated does nothing to prevent you spreading the pox. You would be being selfish in that you might take up an NHS bed. And that is something of course that most sentient beings would like to avoid, to say nothing of the actual illness which necessitates the visit.
I mean I can't really see this becoming my hobby horse but there is a lot of confusion around Covid so it's probably best not to make it any worse.
Are you sure? I mean, we know that the evidence that it does reduce spread is yet to be clearly established (because it couldn't be established in the trials), but there is considerable theoretical and historical evidence that it should, at the very least, considerably reduce spread.
We can't say for sure that it does yet, which is why the Government are emphasising that we can't assume it, but you seem to be saying that it is established that it does not do so, which is a very different stance indeed.
Yes. It isn't proven that the vaccine reduces the chances of you spreading the virus but the strong probability is that it does.
I would suggest that a certificate is not needed - simply let passport control at airports/ports access an electronic list of those vaccinated, which can be uploaded from primary care data. However, given I work with health data and am aware of such interesting events as people having multiple deaths or giving birth aged 93, I accept that may not be foolproof.
A sufficiently successful vaccination programme will also make certification unnecessary - the goal should be to reach herd immunity (indeed, beyond the minimum level) through mass vaccination and eradicate Covid in any meaningful sense in this country (sporadic cases may pop up, but Covid will have nowhere to go). Once that is done, airlines will no more want to see proof of a Covid vaccination than of a smallpox vaccination. There will of course be a period of time when many are vaccinated but Covid is still a threat, so in the short term some proof may be useful.
Also, I feel your pain re your friend. My father in law, whom I like very much and go to (well, used to when that was possible) the pub with on a fairly regular basis is doubtful the moon landings ever took place. He says this mostly to rile another friend who never fails to bite, but also seems to believe it himself. I, too, after once setting out why I believe him to be wrong, no longer engage on this.
I have found, in the past, that using the arguments of denialism too deny the existence of something obvious to be quite useful.
So I deny the existence of Australia.
That's a good idea. Next time it comes up I'll say that I don't believe the moon exists and see where that takes us
No. You need to deny something you can't obviously see. The moon will be seen that evening.
Deny Australia. Hell, deny the USA. Something you can't see.
Moon you say? No, I can't see it. Over there? No. Are you getting confused with a streetlight? Maybe some dust in your eye? Had few too many drinks?
Australia is *fun* to deny....
- Country built by dumping unwanted criminals accidentally ends up a liberal democracy. Yeah right. - Country with a mammal that lays eggs, has a ducks beak and poisonous.... thumbs. Yeah right - Country that fought and lost a war against flightless birds. Yeah right.
Not to mention the absurd accent, which is clearly the product of an over-active imagination. There are no actual Australians; they are all just actors, who are obviously sworn to secrecy at all times on pain of losing their cushy jobs.
So who invented the idea Australia, and where do they make the propaganda films ?
NASA
It is telling that the remake of Total Recall was ludicrously set in Australia rather than Mars. And at least I have seen Mars...
"A ban on people in England walking or exercising with anyone from outside their household is looking increasingly likely, with sources telling the Guardian it is “under active consideration’’ and “could be introduced imminently”"
That's it. That's my social life gone. They want me to be entirely alone until March
It does seem pointless verging on counterproductive due to reduced adherence. They need to concentrate on spread in indoor spaces, e.g. trying to get people to limit their shopping trips to a mimimum.
ON topic, of COURSE you will need a vaccine visa to travel, eat out, use public transport, stay in a hotel, fly, take a cab, do any jobs requiring interaction, go to the theatre, basically live.
We had ID cards in the War, we will have vaccine visas for a few years. Other countries are already on the case, not just rule-following Asians.
You will probably be allowed, at least at first, to refuse a vaccine, but then you won't get your Vaccine Visa, meaning it will be almost impossible to do most normal things. A tiny percentage will hold out.
Anyone who wants to fly abroad will need some kind of vaccine document, for sure. That's basically 80% of the country right there, the Britons who enjoy a foreign holiday.
My best guess is that it will be an app, you can show to authorities, on your smartphone. The Australians have a very efficient e-visa service, which works smoothly, just like this.
Once it is widely established - for travellers, I suspect it will be used in many other areas of life, as well. And it will be popular, because it will enable us all to get nearer to "normality" - eg flying to Majorca for a nice break.
Bring it on.
Many African countries require a yellow fever vaccination to enter. Very possible that COVID vaccination (once widely available) will be added to the list. COVID vaccination or enforced 2 week quarantine would be an easy choice for most people.
I don't think we're going to have a big problem with anti-vaxxers in this country.
The bigger challenge is that given our "open" economy we have gross immigration in the range of 400-600k a year from all over the world, and many many more business visitors and tourists.
That means as long as Covid-19 circulates in the wider world, it will occasionally flare up again here too. We need a much better strategy for visitors, tourists and immigrants - probably certificates of their own.
Vaccine passports to enter the UK, it's really not that difficult.
In order to protect the NHS, though. Because we can't have a lot of people coming here and then they overwhelm the NHS.
Because of course we don't need people to be vaccinated to stop spreading the virus.
If we have achieved 80-90% of eligible people vaccinated then it's a much smaller issue.
It is of course but the debate around vaccinations is in danger of veering into the "vaccinate to stop giving someone else the virus".
Which is not the case.
We don't know if it is the case. My understanding is that with most diseases it is the case. But of course they have not tested for that yet.
That is the point. They don't know. It might it might not ( @MaxPB has given some evidence of relative viral shedding).
But we will likely hear a lot about people being selfish by not getting vaccinated (no idea why people wouldn't want to but there you go). Which implies that without a vaccination people pass on the virus, while with one people won't.
That is simply not true....
No, rather it is not yet conclusively demonstrated. But it is very likely that vaccination reduces infectivity.
"Do any of the vaccines prevent viral transmission? Such data are only available from the ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 vaccine trial, but it was underpowered to generate firm conclusions. Still, data from participants who received a first half dose and a second full booster dose indicate fewer asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infections than in the control group, suggesting reduced transmission."
"A ban on people in England walking or exercising with anyone from outside their household is looking increasingly likely, with sources telling the Guardian it is “under active consideration’’ and “could be introduced imminently”"
That's it. That's my social life gone. They want me to be entirely alone until March
After today's MSP defection from the tories to the Reform Party, you can sense tory appetite for more draconian measures diminishing. Imagine if defections started happening in England too!! Even at grassroots level, with councillors.
Its almost like they suddenly woke up and found themselves in a democracy.
ON topic, of COURSE you will need a vaccine visa to travel, eat out, use public transport, stay in a hotel, fly, take a cab, do any jobs requiring interaction, go to the theatre, basically live.
We had ID cards in the War, we will have vaccine visas for a few years. Other countries are already on the case, not just rule-following Asians.
You will probably be allowed, at least at first, to refuse a vaccine, but then you won't get your Vaccine Visa, meaning it will be almost impossible to do most normal things. A tiny percentage will hold out.
Anyone who wants to fly abroad will need some kind of vaccine document, for sure. That's basically 80% of the country right there, the Britons who enjoy a foreign holiday.
My best guess is that it will be an app, you can show to authorities, on your smartphone. The Australians have a very efficient e-visa service, which works smoothly, just like this.
Once it is widely established - for travellers, I suspect it will be used in many other areas of life, as well. And it will be popular, because it will enable us all to get nearer to "normality" - eg flying to Majorca for a nice break.
Bring it on.
I don't say you are wrong but according to that calculator that is/was going around that would rule out people under 40 going on their summer holidays.
Not sure that is where the various governments want to be.
I guess this summer many governments/airlines will content themselves with a recent negative PCR test, until they can introduce longer-lasting vax certificate apps. But the latter are much more reassuring, so I can't see how they won't arrive, eventually
I think once the virus is under control this will be less of an issue and governments may baulk at such administrative impositions. But we will see.
I would suggest that a certificate is not needed - simply let passport control at airports/ports access an electronic list of those vaccinated, which can be uploaded from primary care data. However, given I work with health data and am aware of such interesting events as people having multiple deaths or giving birth aged 93, I accept that may not be foolproof.
A sufficiently successful vaccination programme will also make certification unnecessary - the goal should be to reach herd immunity (indeed, beyond the minimum level) through mass vaccination and eradicate Covid in any meaningful sense in this country (sporadic cases may pop up, but Covid will have nowhere to go). Once that is done, airlines will no more want to see proof of a Covid vaccination than of a smallpox vaccination. There will of course be a period of time when many are vaccinated but Covid is still a threat, so in the short term some proof may be useful.
Also, I feel your pain re your friend. My father in law, whom I like very much and go to (well, used to when that was possible) the pub with on a fairly regular basis is doubtful the moon landings ever took place. He says this mostly to rile another friend who never fails to bite, but also seems to believe it himself. I, too, after once setting out why I believe him to be wrong, no longer engage on this.
I have found, in the past, that using the arguments of denialism too deny the existence of something obvious to be quite useful.
So I deny the existence of Australia.
That's a good idea. Next time it comes up I'll say that I don't believe the moon exists and see where that takes us
No. You need to deny something you can't obviously see. The moon will be seen that evening.
Deny Australia. Hell, deny the USA. Something you can't see.
Moon you say? No, I can't see it. Over there? No. Are you getting confused with a streetlight? Maybe some dust in your eye? Had few too many drinks?
Australia is *fun* to deny....
- Country built by dumping unwanted criminals accidentally ends up a liberal democracy. Yeah right. - Country with a mammal that lays eggs, has a ducks beak and poisonous.... thumbs. Yeah right - Country that fought and lost a war against flightless birds. Yeah right.
Not to mention the absurd accent, which is clearly the product of an over-active imagination. There are no actual Australians; they are all just actors, who are obviously sworn to secrecy at all times on pain of losing their cushy jobs.
So who invented the idea Australia, and where do they make the propaganda films ?
The lizards, of course, in order to be able to deliver regular doses of mind-control soma in the form of daytime soap operas. "Ramsay Street" is, I understand, one of the more secretive parts of Area 51.
"A ban on people in England walking or exercising with anyone from outside their household is looking increasingly likely, with sources telling the Guardian it is “under active consideration’’ and “could be introduced imminently”"
That's it. That's my social life gone. They want me to be entirely alone until March
Things are getting unreasonable. What`s the fine if you`re caught? Worth the risk to retain sanity?
It seems rather desperate. Do we have evidence that people obeying the rules outdoors is contributing significantly? Seems more likely to me that outbreaks are caused by people who break the rules (then give it to the rest of their family).
Don't forget - Philip has assured us that there will be no disruption at the border as absolutely everyone will submit all their paperwork electronically in advance. Definitely no mega queues whilst bemused customs officials search for contraband, not at all.
"A ban on people in England walking or exercising with anyone from outside their household is looking increasingly likely, with sources telling the Guardian it is “under active consideration’’ and “could be introduced imminently”"
That's it. That's my social life gone. They want me to be entirely alone until March
I'm not sure it would actually achieve much more, but they want to be seen to be doing something as things get worse before they get better.
I reluctantly can concede the argument occasionally that it is lead by "science" , I willl need to throw up if arguments are based on being lead by "PR"
"A ban on people in England walking or exercising with anyone from outside their household is looking increasingly likely, with sources telling the Guardian it is “under active consideration’’ and “could be introduced imminently”"
That's it. That's my social life gone. They want me to be entirely alone until March
Things are getting unreasonable. What`s the fine if you`re caught? Worth the risk to retain sanity?
Some tory MPs already getting v.v. nervous. Reform Party rolling out great barrington. First defection. Rishi sounding utterlt miserable on the economy.
I would suggest that a certificate is not needed - simply let passport control at airports/ports access an electronic list of those vaccinated, which can be uploaded from primary care data. However, given I work with health data and am aware of such interesting events as people having multiple deaths or giving birth aged 93, I accept that may not be foolproof.
A sufficiently successful vaccination programme will also make certification unnecessary - the goal should be to reach herd immunity (indeed, beyond the minimum level) through mass vaccination and eradicate Covid in any meaningful sense in this country (sporadic cases may pop up, but Covid will have nowhere to go). Once that is done, airlines will no more want to see proof of a Covid vaccination than of a smallpox vaccination. There will of course be a period of time when many are vaccinated but Covid is still a threat, so in the short term some proof may be useful.
Also, I feel your pain re your friend. My father in law, whom I like very much and go to (well, used to when that was possible) the pub with on a fairly regular basis is doubtful the moon landings ever took place. He says this mostly to rile another friend who never fails to bite, but also seems to believe it himself. I, too, after once setting out why I believe him to be wrong, no longer engage on this.
I have found, in the past, that using the arguments of denialism too deny the existence of something obvious to be quite useful.
So I deny the existence of Australia.
That's a good idea. Next time it comes up I'll say that I don't believe the moon exists and see where that takes us
No. You need to deny something you can't obviously see. The moon will be seen that evening.
Deny Australia. Hell, deny the USA. Something you can't see.
Moon you say? No, I can't see it. Over there? No. Are you getting confused with a streetlight? Maybe some dust in your eye? Had few too many drinks?
Australia is *fun* to deny....
- Country built by dumping unwanted criminals accidentally ends up a liberal democracy. Yeah right. - Country with a mammal that lays eggs, has a ducks beak and poisonous.... thumbs. Yeah right - Country that fought and lost a war against flightless birds. Yeah right.
Not to mention the absurd accent, which is clearly the product of an over-active imagination. There are no actual Australians; they are all just actors, who are obviously sworn to secrecy at all times on pain of losing their cushy jobs.
So who invented the idea Australia, and where do they make the propaganda films ?
The lizards, of course, in order to be able to deliver regular doses of mind-control soma in the form of daytime soap operas. "Ramsay Street" is, I understand, one of the more secretive parts of Area 51.
Where do they find all those massive empty spaces, though ?
For example, the only such places available in the US are populated by conspiracy theorists (ahem, rational sceptics/rural Republicans) who'd have no truck with such a grand deception.
"A ban on people in England walking or exercising with anyone from outside their household is looking increasingly likely, with sources telling the Guardian it is “under active consideration’’ and “could be introduced imminently”"
That's it. That's my social life gone. They want me to be entirely alone until March
I'm not sure it would actually achieve much more, but they want to be seen to be doing something as things get worse before they get better.
Yes, I thought it was generally believed that outdoor transmission is not a common way of spreading the virus, at least when it's not a large group of people shouting or singing. Or am I wrong? Is there evidence of outdoor transmission?
"A ban on people in England walking or exercising with anyone from outside their household is looking increasingly likely, with sources telling the Guardian it is “under active consideration’’ and “could be introduced imminently”"
That's it. That's my social life gone. They want me to be entirely alone until March
I'm not sure it would actually achieve much more, but they want to be seen to be doing something as things get worse before they get better.
I reluctantly can concede the argument occasionally that it is lead by "science" , I willl need to throw up if arguments are based on being lead by "PR"
Not unreasonable, but at least of their response will be so based.
Don't forget - Philip has assured us that there will be no disruption at the border as absolutely everyone will submit all their paperwork electronically in advance. Definitely no mega queues whilst bemused customs officials search for contraband, not at all.
Philip will be delighted at the new sovereignty displayed by individual EU countries' customs officials. Previously they had no say in allowing British-originated ham and egg sandwiches into their country.
Now they truly have thrown off the yoke of oppression.
Don't forget - Philip has assured us that there will be no disruption at the border as absolutely everyone will submit all their paperwork electronically in advance. Definitely no mega queues whilst bemused customs officials search for contraband, not at all.
Philip will be delighted at the new sovereignty displayed by individual EU countries' customs officials. Previously they had no say in allowing British-originated ham and egg sandwiches into their country.
Now they truly have thrown off the yoke of oppression.
Don't forget - Philip has assured us that there will be no disruption at the border as absolutely everyone will submit all their paperwork electronically in advance. Definitely no mega queues whilst bemused customs officials search for contraband, not at all.
Philip will be delighted at the new sovereignty displayed by individual EU countries' customs officials. Previously they had no say in allowing British-originated ham and egg sandwiches into their country.
Now they truly have thrown off the yoke of oppression.
shouldnt that be yolk ?
Yes. I was so excited at perhaps my first PB pun that I actually forgot to make it.
Don't forget - Philip has assured us that there will be no disruption at the border as absolutely everyone will submit all their paperwork electronically in advance. Definitely no mega queues whilst bemused customs officials search for contraband, not at all.
Philip will be delighted at the new sovereignty displayed by individual EU countries' customs officials. Previously they had no say in allowing British-originated ham and egg sandwiches into their country.
Now they truly have thrown off the yoke of oppression.
Philip will be delighted at the new sovereignty displayed by individual EU countries' customs officials. Previously they had no say in allowing British-originated ham and egg sandwiches into their country.
Now they truly have thrown off the yoke of oppression.
"A ban on people in England walking or exercising with anyone from outside their household is looking increasingly likely, with sources telling the Guardian it is “under active consideration’’ and “could be introduced imminently”"
That's it. That's my social life gone. They want me to be entirely alone until March
After today's MSP defection from the tories to the Reform Party, you can sense tory appetite for more draconian measures diminishing. Imagine if defections started happening in England too!! Even at grassroots level, with councillors.
Its almost like they suddenly woke up and found themselves in a democracy.
One day, they'll wish they weren't.
Your desperation for Farage and Tice's Reform Party to take power and deliver us from tyranny shines through many of your posts.
"A ban on people in England walking or exercising with anyone from outside their household is looking increasingly likely, with sources telling the Guardian it is “under active consideration’’ and “could be introduced imminently”"
That's it. That's my social life gone. They want me to be entirely alone until March
Things are getting unreasonable. What`s the fine if you`re caught? Worth the risk to retain sanity?
It seems rather desperate. Do we have evidence that people obeying the rules outdoors is contributing significantly? Seems more likely to me that outbreaks are caused by people who break the rules (then give it to the rest of their family).
All I do is walk alongside a friend at 2m distance. Staring ahead. I don't go near anyone. It keeps me sane. And the chances of my infecting someone, or catching something, are about nil
"A ban on people in England walking or exercising with anyone from outside their household is looking increasingly likely, with sources telling the Guardian it is “under active consideration’’ and “could be introduced imminently”"
That's it. That's my social life gone. They want me to be entirely alone until March
Things are getting unreasonable. What`s the fine if you`re caught? Worth the risk to retain sanity?
Some tory MPs already getting v.v. nervous. Reform Party rolling out great barrington. First defection. Rishi sounding utterlt miserable on the economy.
Don't forget - Philip has assured us that there will be no disruption at the border as absolutely everyone will submit all their paperwork electronically in advance. Definitely no mega queues whilst bemused customs officials search for contraband, not at all.
Philip will be delighted at the new sovereignty displayed by individual EU countries' customs officials. Previously they had no say in allowing British-originated ham and egg sandwiches into their country.
Now they truly have thrown off the yoke of oppression.
shouldnt that be yolk ?
Is this no-sandwich thing because the Dutch heard someone say that Brexiters are all into bread?
"A ban on people in England walking or exercising with anyone from outside their household is looking increasingly likely, with sources telling the Guardian it is “under active consideration’’ and “could be introduced imminently”"
That's it. That's my social life gone. They want me to be entirely alone until March
After today's MSP defection from the tories to the Reform Party, you can sense tory appetite for more draconian measures diminishing. Imagine if defections started happening in England too!! Even at grassroots level, with councillors.
Its almost like they suddenly woke up and found themselves in a democracy.
One day, they'll wish they weren't.
Your desperation for Farage and Tice's Reform Party to take power and deliver us from tyranny shines through many of your posts.
Hopefully, your dreams will never be fulfilled.
OOH a mind reader !!! its uncanny!!! Someone call Derren Brown
"A ban on people in England walking or exercising with anyone from outside their household is looking increasingly likely, with sources telling the Guardian it is “under active consideration’’ and “could be introduced imminently”"
That's it. That's my social life gone. They want me to be entirely alone until March
Things are getting unreasonable. What`s the fine if you`re caught? Worth the risk to retain sanity?
It seems rather desperate. Do we have evidence that people obeying the rules outdoors is contributing significantly? Seems more likely to me that outbreaks are caused by people who break the rules (then give it to the rest of their family).
The premise that you have to be bending/breaking the rules to catch covid is an interesting recent development, which seems to go hand in hand with others demanding even tighter restrictions and greater enforcement.
It is a coronavirus. In winter. It is frankly remarkable it hasn't spread more.
Don't forget - Philip has assured us that there will be no disruption at the border as absolutely everyone will submit all their paperwork electronically in advance. Definitely no mega queues whilst bemused customs officials search for contraband, not at all.
Philip will be delighted at the new sovereignty displayed by individual EU countries' customs officials. Previously they had no say in allowing British-originated ham and egg sandwiches into their country.
Now they truly have thrown off the yoke of oppression.
“There was no epic fantasy when when LOTR was written.”
There was the Edda etc. Let’s take a quick peak at it. The wise woman’s prophecy
Who’s in it? Well...
There was Motsognir | the mightiest made Of all the dwarfs, | and Durin next; Many a likeness | of men they made, The dwarfs in the earth, | as Durin said. 11. Nyi and Nithi, | Northri and Suthri, Austri and Vestri, | Althjof, Dvalin, Nar and Nain, | Niping, Dain, Bifur, Bofur, | Bombur, Nori, An and Onar, | Ai, Mjothvitnir.
Vigg and Gandalf) | Vindalf, Thrain, Thekk and Thorin, | Thror, Vit and Lit, Nyr and Nyrath,-- | now have I told-- Regin and Rathsvith-- | the list aright. 13. Fili, Kili, | Fundin, Nali, Heptifili, | Hannar, Sviur, Frar, Hornbori, | Fræg and Loni, Aurvang, Jari, | Eikinskjaldi. 14. The race of the dwarfs | in Dvalin's throng Down to Lofar | the list must I tell; The rocks they left, | and through wet lands They sought a home | in the fields of sand. 15. There were Draupnir | and Dolgthrasir, Hor, Haugspori, | Hlevang, Gloin, Dori, Ori, | Duf, Andvari, Skirfir, Virfir, | Skafith, Ai. 16. Alf and Yngvi, | Eikinskjaldi, Fjalar and Frosti, | Fith and Ginnar; So for all time | shall the tale be known, The list of all | the forbears of Lofar.
Tolkien did make it quite clear in the LOTR appendices that the names of dwarves, hobbits and others were taken from real life mythology, and used it to maintain the fiction that he had merely translated writings he had found (a long standing trope of fiction), substituting names familiar to the reader for the originals.
"A ban on people in England walking or exercising with anyone from outside their household is looking increasingly likely, with sources telling the Guardian it is “under active consideration’’ and “could be introduced imminently”"
That's it. That's my social life gone. They want me to be entirely alone until March
Things are getting unreasonable. What`s the fine if you`re caught? Worth the risk to retain sanity?
Some tory MPs already getting v.v. nervous. Reform Party rolling out great barrington. First defection. Rishi sounding utterlt miserable on the economy.
Tories need to make the exit route clear.
The fact they can't surely only shows they don;t have that much confidence in the vaccine as a way out.
I don;t see how that can be when they have been among the lockdowniest of them all...??
yes , measures shoudl only be in place where they are proven to work. I am afraid our lawmakers are getting a taste for bossy restrictions that not only cause other complications or destitution but dont actually work as well
I would suggest that a certificate is not needed - simply let passport control at airports/ports access an electronic list of those vaccinated, which can be uploaded from primary care data. However, given I work with health data and am aware of such interesting events as people having multiple deaths or giving birth aged 93, I accept that may not be foolproof.
A sufficiently successful vaccination programme will also make certification unnecessary - the goal should be to reach herd immunity (indeed, beyond the minimum level) through mass vaccination and eradicate Covid in any meaningful sense in this country (sporadic cases may pop up, but Covid will have nowhere to go). Once that is done, airlines will no more want to see proof of a Covid vaccination than of a smallpox vaccination. There will of course be a period of time when many are vaccinated but Covid is still a threat, so in the short term some proof may be useful.
Also, I feel your pain re your friend. My father in law, whom I like very much and go to (well, used to when that was possible) the pub with on a fairly regular basis is doubtful the moon landings ever took place. He says this mostly to rile another friend who never fails to bite, but also seems to believe it himself. I, too, after once setting out why I believe him to be wrong, no longer engage on this.
I have found, in the past, that using the arguments of denialism too deny the existence of something obvious to be quite useful.
So I deny the existence of Australia.
That's a good idea. Next time it comes up I'll say that I don't believe the moon exists and see where that takes us
No. You need to deny something you can't obviously see. The moon will be seen that evening.
Deny Australia. Hell, deny the USA. Something you can't see.
Moon you say? No, I can't see it. Over there? No. Are you getting confused with a streetlight? Maybe some dust in your eye? Had few too many drinks?
Australia is *fun* to deny....
- Country built by dumping unwanted criminals accidentally ends up a liberal democracy. Yeah right. - Country with a mammal that lays eggs, has a ducks beak and poisonous.... thumbs. Yeah right - Country that fought and lost a war against flightless birds. Yeah right.
Not to mention the absurd accent, which is clearly the product of an over-active imagination. There are no actual Australians; they are all just actors, who are obviously sworn to secrecy at all times on pain of losing their cushy jobs.
No, the Aussie accent is a product of Cockney and Irish. As that's basically the ethnic mix of London's criminals in the 18th and 19th centuries, it makes sense.
"A ban on people in England walking or exercising with anyone from outside their household is looking increasingly likely, with sources telling the Guardian it is “under active consideration’’ and “could be introduced imminently”"
That's it. That's my social life gone. They want me to be entirely alone until March
Things are getting unreasonable. What`s the fine if you`re caught? Worth the risk to retain sanity?
It seems rather desperate. Do we have evidence that people obeying the rules outdoors is contributing significantly? Seems more likely to me that outbreaks are caused by people who break the rules (then give it to the rest of their family).
All I do is walk alongside a friend at 2m distance. Staring ahead. I don't go near anyone. It keeps me sane. And the chances of my infecting someone, or catching something, are about nil
Comments
https://twitter.com/autosport/status/1348632537170644994
The claim about how many are within 10 miles of a vaccine service is though
I mean, we know that the evidence that it does reduce spread is yet to be clearly established (because it couldn't be established in the trials), but there is considerable theoretical and historical evidence that it should, at the very least, considerably reduce spread.
We can't say for sure that it does yet, which is why the Government are emphasising that we can't assume it, but you seem to be saying that it is established that it does not do so, which is a very different stance indeed.
Lol, it was more comfortable when she was just asking me for money...
Removing compulsion is IMO MORE important with the rise of scepticism, not less.
That results in a huge reduction in the overall R value.
Just that a lot of the discourse, including from the government, proceeds from the premise that we do know. And that we do know it does.
Does this matter? Well not hugely I suppose just that it is one more element of disinformation the government is using to achieve its (wholly laudable) aim of reducing the effect of the virus in society, and specifically its effect on the NHS.
Tolkien was a Saxon scholar? This isn’t Saxon, though the old Pagan does read across from place to place to an extent between Norse/Germanic and Saxon.
He is plagiarising more than just the names though isn’t he. And more than half century from Wagner’s visit. And a few decades from Ibsen/Greig
https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1348585818231894018?s=20
Edit: Obviously vaccination doesn't always work, so it makes sense to continue to social distance to some extent while the disease is still prevalent even after being vaccinated.
Apologies to all for crudeness.
My best guess is that it will be an app, you can show to authorities, on your smartphone. The Australians have a very efficient e-visa service, which works smoothly, just like this.
Once it is widely established - for travellers, I suspect it will be used in many other areas of life, as well. And it will be popular, because it will enable us all to get nearer to "normality" - eg flying to Majorca for a nice break.
Bring it on.
Not mention
- The ridiculous made up game that is rugby-in-shirts-with-no-sleeves.
- A former prime ministers who defined the national identity in terms of "mateship"...
- This farcical fake philosophy department - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ojhtq51Ya8
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5247(20)30226-3/fulltext
Not sure that is where the various governments want to be.
The Christians and Muslims both plagiarised the Jewish god for their holy books
"A ban on people in England walking or exercising with anyone from outside their household is looking increasingly likely, with sources telling the Guardian it is “under active consideration’’ and “could be introduced imminently”"
That's it. That's my social life gone. They want me to be entirely alone until March
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jan/11/ban-on-exercising-with-others-likely-but-elite-sport-fears-played-down
But it is very likely that vaccination reduces infectivity.
I confidently expect Mrs C and I will not be allowed to see our family in Thailand with a) certificates of vaccination and b) a negative test.... a quick, cheap and reliable will very shortly be available.
The ancient Greeks, from memory, would add comments like "if the gods are real" in their works, clearly implying an element of scepticism.
Homer and Hesiod predate Herodotus by centuries.
It is crazy crap like this that risks exposing us all.
Shhhhhhhhhhhh.
You’re an asset to the site.
It is telling that the remake of Total Recall was ludicrously set in Australia rather than Mars. And at least I have seen Mars...
https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S2666-5247(20)30226-3
"Do any of the vaccines prevent viral transmission? Such data are only available from the ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 vaccine trial, but it was underpowered to generate firm conclusions. Still, data from participants who received a first half dose and a second full booster dose indicate fewer asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infections than in the control group, suggesting reduced transmission."
Its almost like they suddenly woke up and found themselves in a democracy.
One day, they'll wish they weren't.
Ireland currently has the worlds highest infection rate
https://www.independent.ie/news/ireland-records-highest-covid-19-infection-rate-in-the-world-over-past-seven-days-39954862.html
For example, the only such places available in the US are populated by conspiracy theorists (ahem, rational sceptics/rural Republicans) who'd have no truck with such a grand deception.
Now they truly have thrown off the yoke of oppression.
Hopefully, your dreams will never be fulfilled.
Now they take it away?
It is a coronavirus. In winter. It is frankly remarkable it hasn't spread more.
just for a change
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/returning-emigrants-may-have-prompted-surge-in-uk-variant-39953836.html