I don't see the problem with ID cards that can show things like Covid vaccination status. "You can't do x unless you show us y" is a problem because what? Liberty? How about my liberty in not catching Covid from some ignorant scrote?
Will, I think, be a very widely-held view. Protect my safety - or go whistle for my custom.
In Week 51, the number of deaths registered was 12.7% above the five-year average (1,463 deaths higher).
In Week 52, the number of deaths registered was 44.8% above the five-year average (3,566 deaths higher)*
*Note caveat on week 52: but this increase should be treated with caution; the five-year average was particularly low in Week 52 as the years 2016, 2017, 2018 and 2019, all contained two bank holidays, whereas Week 52 of 2020 only contained one bank holiday so would likely have more deaths registered.
If you believe the government is lying to you, then you also believe the excess deaths number is made up.
I love the flat earth community. Bunch of insane idiots with the occassional, "I know I'm lying, but this has turned into a source of income for me." (Nathan Oakley if you want to look him up). There whole argument is the Earth looks flat, therefore is flat. They rarely attempt any real scientific experiments to see otherwise, and on the very rare occassion they do, these always prove the globe. They then answer with, "Well, the results are being influenced by something else then (that we can't see, and can't test for), as the Earth can't be a sphere." ie, they've reached a conclusion before starting the experiment.
Noticed this on a trip to Inverness a couple of years back ...
You seemed to have somewhat changed your mind, Stocky -- recalling an earlier conversation.
No vaccine certificate -- no travel, no theatre, no gigs, no restaurant meals, no schools for your children. Perfectly fair.
The upside is no skiing.
One inevitably develops a mental picture of other posters, and I accept this could well be way off the mark.
I drew my conclusions because of the general tone of your comments. For example, the comment I responded to said, re young people:-
"So, they not going to listen to Hancock blathering on about "Save Grandpa". After all, what did Gramps ever do for them? He is a greedy, selfish man who denied the benefits he received to younger people."
That speaks to me of an angry and bitter individual. The issue has never been simply one of saving old people. If that had been the case it would have made far more sense to completely lock down the over 70s and let everyone else carry on as normal.
If some young people can't see beyond the ends of their noses and think their right to party trumps everything else then so be it but then it's no good whining about the consequences in years to come.
It isn;t about the right to party.
Its about the right to a decent, uninterrupted education. The right to mind broadening travel. The right to play team sport. The right to access mind broadening culture like film and theatre. The right to exchange ideas with other young people. The right to work. The right to protest in groups. The right not to be overburdened by crushing debt and deficit. The right to good mental health.
Young people have been stripped of all of these fundamental rights. The main aim has been to protect a cohort of people who have already lived a far longer and far better life than any generation in history. Ever. Some of these people do not even want this protection.
Oh bloody hell who rattled his cage again?
Contrarian has a self-rattling mechanism on his cage. On a timer, lest we forget.....
In Week 51, the number of deaths registered was 12.7% above the five-year average (1,463 deaths higher).
In Week 52, the number of deaths registered was 44.8% above the five-year average (3,566 deaths higher)*
*Note caveat on week 52: but this increase should be treated with caution; the five-year average was particularly low in Week 52 as the years 2016, 2017, 2018 and 2019, all contained two bank holidays, whereas Week 52 of 2020 only contained one bank holiday so would likely have more deaths registered.
If you believe the government is lying to you, then you also believe the excess deaths number is made up.
I love the flat earth community. Bunch of insane idiots with the occassional, "I know I'm lying, but this has turned into a source of income for me." (Nathan Oakley if you want to look him up). There whole argument is the Earth looks flat, therefore is flat. They rarely attempt any real scientific experiments to see otherwise, and on the very rare occassion they do, these always prove the globe. They then answer with, "Well, the results are being influenced by something else then (that we can't see, and can't test for), as the Earth can't be a sphere." ie, they've reached a conclusion before starting the experiment.
I did frustrate one once when he insisted that the Earth looked flat, so...
"No, it doesn't."
What?
"I've never been anywhere where it looks flat. There's always hills and slopes upwards and downwards. I mean, put a marble on the ground outside and it usually rolls away somewhere. You've got to really try to find a flat bit."
Okay, well, that all cancels out over...
"Prove it. Why shouldn't it end up always sloping up overall so we're in a massive bowl. Or down, so we're on a big ball."
(Yes, I know about gravity going towards the centre of a body rather than always 'down,' but I was playing with him)
But - but - it stands to reason that it'll cancel out
I don't see the problem with ID cards that can show things like Covid vaccination status. "You can't do x unless you show us y" is a problem because what? Liberty? How about my liberty in not catching Covid from some ignorant scrote?
Will, I think, be a very widely-held view. Protect my safety - or go whistle for my custom.
Genuinely surprised how many people want us to become a papers demanding society.
Not in my name. And I say this as someone who wants to be back to normal ASAP.
It's well established that the best cure for vaccine hesitancy is personally knowing someone (or even just knowing of someone - ie knowing them at one or two removes) who has been badly affected by a vaccine-preventable illness. Not infallible, but it changes a lot of minds (or makes them up if they've just been hesitant). Arguably, antivaxxing is a product of the astonishing success of vaccines over the decades in making such issues so much rarer.
Either the voluntary uptake will be sufficient to achieve herd immunity (in which case, not a problem), or it won't. If it doesn't, the overwhelming concentration of severe cases will be amongst vaccine refusers (although efficacy is not perfect, it is extremely high in preventing serious cases).
Those who are more resistant will tend to know more of those severe cases, exposing them to that "knowing someone" issue. A significant amount of them will have their minds changed by it.
There may also be a nationalism incentive as well - the UK has high levels of vaccine uptake in comparison to many others (such as France, just next door). When the UK's deaths and hospitalisations come way down and restrictions are progressively lifted, while more anitvax-dominated countries remain in the mire, that will provide another push. It's unpleasant to consider the state of those other countries, but possibly the same effect will work for them as well. Competitiveness with national pride working for a positive cause.
Again whilst I do agree with the basic point, we do have a duty of care for those who currently cannot have the vaccine. There may not be millions of them but they will be a significant minority and they have as much right to go out and enjoy life as the rest of us. Saying they have to stay permanently - or even temporarily - in isolation just because some people refuse to have the vaccine seems a wrong headed way to approach things.
The wider issue will be not just air travel, but where else you will have to show a vaccination certificate before access is allowed. Cinemas? Nightclubs? Restaurants? Work in hospitality? Access to shops? It is quite easy to envisage an economy where you are very largely excluded without such a certificate. It may not be compulsory - but there will nonetheless be health apartheid.
Pretty sure it will be deemed illegal to favour customers in such a way.
Private businesses can refuse service if they wish - the only caveat is that such refusal must not be discriminatory as defined by the Equalities Act. It seems unlikely that the Act will be extended to cover discrimination against vaccine refusniks.
I don't see the problem with ID cards that can show things like Covid vaccination status. "You can't do x unless you show us y" is a problem because what? Liberty? How about my liberty in not catching Covid from some ignorant scrote?
Will, I think, be a very widely-held view. Protect my safety - or go whistle for my custom.
Genuinely surprised how many people want us to become a papers demanding society.
Not in my name. And I say this as someone who wants to be back to normal ASAP.
I`m with you. My header is suggesting that we head-off other nations` paper demands of us.
I would suggest that a certificate is not needed - simply let passport control at airports/ports access an electronic list of those vaccinated, which can be uploaded from primary care data. However, given I work with health data and am aware of such interesting events as people having multiple deaths or giving birth aged 93, I accept that may not be foolproof.
A sufficiently successful vaccination programme will also make certification unnecessary - the goal should be to reach herd immunity (indeed, beyond the minimum level) through mass vaccination and eradicate Covid in any meaningful sense in this country (sporadic cases may pop up, but Covid will have nowhere to go). Once that is done, airlines will no more want to see proof of a Covid vaccination than of a smallpox vaccination. There will of course be a period of time when many are vaccinated but Covid is still a threat, so in the short term some proof may be useful.
Also, I feel your pain re your friend. My father in law, whom I like very much and go to (well, used to when that was possible) the pub with on a fairly regular basis is doubtful the moon landings ever took place. He says this mostly to rile another friend who never fails to bite, but also seems to believe it himself. I, too, after once setting out why I believe him to be wrong, no longer engage on this.
I have found, in the past, that using the arguments of denialism too deny the existence of something obvious to be quite useful.
So I deny the existence of Australia.
That's a good idea. Next time it comes up I'll say that I don't believe the moon exists and see where that takes us
No. You need to deny something you can't obviously see. The moon will be seen that evening.
Deny Australia. Hell, deny the USA. Something you can't see.
Moon you say? No, I can't see it. Over there? No. Are you getting confused with a streetlight? Maybe some dust in your eye? Had few too many drinks?
Australia is *fun* to deny....
- Country built by dumping unwanted criminals accidentally ends up a liberal democracy. Yeah right. - Country with a mammal that lays eggs, has a ducks beak and poisonous.... thumbs. Yeah right - Country that fought and lost a war against flightless birds. Yeah right.
The wider issue will be not just air travel, but where else you will have to show a vaccination certificate before access is allowed. Cinemas? Nightclubs? Restaurants? Work in hospitality? Access to shops? It is quite easy to envisage an economy where you are very largely excluded without such a certificate. It may not be compulsory - but there will nonetheless be health apartheid.
Pretty sure it will be deemed illegal to favour customers in such a way.
Private businesses can refuse service if they wish - the only caveat is that such refusal must not be discriminatory as defined by the Equalities Act. It seems unlikely that the Act will be extended to cover discrimination against vaccine refusniks.
Should private companies be able to enquire about an individual`s health circumstances?
Its about the right to a decent, uninterrupted education. The right to mind broadening travel. The right to play team sport. The right to access mind broadening culture like film and theatre. The right to exchange ideas with other young people. The right to work. The right to protest in groups. The right not to be overburdened by crushing debt and deficit. The right to good mental health.
Young people have been stripped of all of these fundamental rights. The main aim has been to protect a cohort of people who have already lived a far longer and far better life than any generation in history. Ever. Some of these people do not even want this protection.
To be clear, what I am against is stripping young people of these rights and NOT offering anything in return.
I think if everyone under the age of 30 was given 10 grand compensation for the lost year -- taken from the bank accounts of OllyT & Barnesian & OGH and all the old critters that have benefitted -- that would be fine.
It is still not a great bargain for the young -- 10 grand for a year of your magical youth -- that is very cheap.
The wider issue will be not just air travel, but where else you will have to show a vaccination certificate before access is allowed. Cinemas? Nightclubs? Restaurants? Work in hospitality? Access to shops? It is quite easy to envisage an economy where you are very largely excluded without such a certificate. It may not be compulsory - but there will nonetheless be health apartheid.
Pretty sure it will be deemed illegal to favour customers in such a way.
Private businesses can refuse service if they wish - the only caveat is that such refusal must not be discriminatory as defined by the Equalities Act. It seems unlikely that the Act will be extended to cover discrimination against vaccine refusniks.
Almost certainly the opposite is true. "We refuse to serve you on the basis that you may infect our staff. To ignore this risk to their welfare puts us at risk under the Health and Safety at Work Act".
The kind of people who are refusing to wear masks. Being able to throw them out will be pretty satisfying to a lot of people who work in retail.
I don't see the problem with ID cards that can show things like Covid vaccination status. "You can't do x unless you show us y" is a problem because what? Liberty? How about my liberty in not catching Covid from some ignorant scrote?
Will, I think, be a very widely-held view. Protect my safety - or go whistle for my custom.
Genuinely surprised how many people want us to become a papers demanding society.
Not in my name. And I say this as someone who wants to be back to normal ASAP.
There is not going to be a perfect return to normal. It is normal with compromises, normal with costs, normal with "howevers..."
You seemed to have somewhat changed your mind, Stocky -- recalling an earlier conversation.
No vaccine certificate -- no travel, no theatre, no gigs, no restaurant meals, no schools for your children. Perfectly fair.
The upside is no skiing.
One inevitably develops a mental picture of other posters, and I accept this could well be way off the mark.
I drew my conclusions because of the general tone of your comments. For example, the comment I responded to said, re young people:-
"So, they not going to listen to Hancock blathering on about "Save Grandpa". After all, what did Gramps ever do for them? He is a greedy, selfish man who denied the benefits he received to younger people."
That speaks to me of an angry and bitter individual. The issue has never been simply one of saving old people. If that had been the case it would have made far more sense to completely lock down the over 70s and let everyone else carry on as normal.
If some young people can't see beyond the ends of their noses and think their right to party trumps everything else then so be it but then it's no good whining about the consequences in years to come.
It isn;t about the right to party.
Its about the right to a decent, uninterrupted education. The right to mind broadening travel. The right to play team sport. The right to access mind broadening culture like film and theatre. The right to exchange ideas with other young people. The right to work. The right to protest in groups. The right not to be overburdened by crushing debt and deficit. The right to good mental health.
Young people have been stripped of all of these fundamental rights. The main aim has been to protect a cohort of people who have already lived a far longer and far better life than any generation in history. Ever. Some of these people do not even want this protection.
You haven't figured out how to watch a film from inside your own home?
I don't see the problem with ID cards that can show things like Covid vaccination status. "You can't do x unless you show us y" is a problem because what? Liberty? How about my liberty in not catching Covid from some ignorant scrote?
Did you see the problem with ID cards the last time the government tried to introduce them?
Have you heard any mention of government plans to introduce ID cards or Vaccination Certificates now? Absent any government-issued documentation, how does anyone prove to their pub or travel agent they have had the jab, even if those places want to know?
I don't see the problem with ID cards that can show things like Covid vaccination status. "You can't do x unless you show us y" is a problem because what? Liberty? How about my liberty in not catching Covid from some ignorant scrote?
Will, I think, be a very widely-held view. Protect my safety - or go whistle for my custom.
Genuinely surprised how many people want us to become a papers demanding society.
Not in my name. And I say this as someone who wants to be back to normal ASAP.
There is not going to be a perfect return to normal. It is normal with compromises, normal with costs, normal with "howevers..."
I don't think that is going to be the case at all.
Restrictions will ease in stages. But I can't imagine us setting up an ID card system just for covid jab proofs.
How long does it last for? 3 months? 3 years? 30 years?
I don't see the problem with ID cards that can show things like Covid vaccination status. "You can't do x unless you show us y" is a problem because what? Liberty? How about my liberty in not catching Covid from some ignorant scrote?
Will, I think, be a very widely-held view. Protect my safety - or go whistle for my custom.
Genuinely surprised how many people want us to become a papers demanding society.
Not in my name. And I say this as someone who wants to be back to normal ASAP.
Don't be silly. If I say that I think it's reasonable that there are ticket inspectors on buses, and passport control at airports, is that a symptom of a wider hope on my part that we become a "papers demanding society"?
The wider issue will be not just air travel, but where else you will have to show a vaccination certificate before access is allowed. Cinemas? Nightclubs? Restaurants? Work in hospitality? Access to shops? It is quite easy to envisage an economy where you are very largely excluded without such a certificate. It may not be compulsory - but there will nonetheless be health apartheid.
Pretty sure it will be deemed illegal to favour customers in such a way.
How can you prevent people using risk to public health as a criteria for entry?
Because it will fundamentally restrict liberties?
I don't understand why anyone medically able to have it won't want it, but thats just me.
Preventing people with poor-eyesight driving also restricts their liberties, but it needs doing.
It is tested as part of gaining a license, however.
Practicalities aside (forgeries would crop up in minutes, rendering them entirely worthless), it won't be happening because you don't need a license to go to the cinema, eat our etc
Except you do now.
There is a perfectly good existing analogy: trying to buy alcohol when you look around the 18 year old mark. The system works just fine.
Fancy a sporting bet? I'll pay £25 to site funds if a vaccination certificate is required by law to go to the cinema or eat at a restaurant, you'll pay £25 to site funds if no such law is passed? Happy to have someone adjudicate if you like.
I would offer that bet too. So if you get too much demand let me know.
It's well established that the best cure for vaccine hesitancy is personally knowing someone (or even just knowing of someone - ie knowing them at one or two removes) who has been badly affected by a vaccine-preventable illness. Not infallible, but it changes a lot of minds (or makes them up if they've just been hesitant). Arguably, antivaxxing is a product of the astonishing success of vaccines over the decades in making such issues so much rarer.
Either the voluntary uptake will be sufficient to achieve herd immunity (in which case, not a problem), or it won't. If it doesn't, the overwhelming concentration of severe cases will be amongst vaccine refusers (although efficacy is not perfect, it is extremely high in preventing serious cases).
Those who are more resistant will tend to know more of those severe cases, exposing them to that "knowing someone" issue. A significant amount of them will have their minds changed by it.
There may also be a nationalism incentive as well - the UK has high levels of vaccine uptake in comparison to many others (such as France, just next door). When the UK's deaths and hospitalisations come way down and restrictions are progressively lifted, while more anitvax-dominated countries remain in the mire, that will provide another push. It's unpleasant to consider the state of those other countries, but possibly the same effect will work for them as well. Competitiveness with national pride working for a positive cause.
Again whilst I do agree with the basic point, we do have a duty of care for those who currently cannot have the vaccine. There may not be millions of them but they will be a significant minority and they have as much right to go out and enjoy life as the rest of us. Saying they have to stay permanently - or even temporarily - in isolation just because some people refuse to have the vaccine seems a wrong headed way to approach things.
We do have that duty of care. My suspicion is that the issue may self-correct reasonably quickly - that more people will take up the vaccine than we fear. If it doesn't, we may have to look at it again, but we don't have to cross that bridge any earlier than necessary.
It's well established that the best cure for vaccine hesitancy is personally knowing someone (or even just knowing of someone - ie knowing them at one or two removes) who has been badly affected by a vaccine-preventable illness. Not infallible, but it changes a lot of minds (or makes them up if they've just been hesitant). Arguably, antivaxxing is a product of the astonishing success of vaccines over the decades in making such issues so much rarer.
Either the voluntary uptake will be sufficient to achieve herd immunity (in which case, not a problem), or it won't. If it doesn't, the overwhelming concentration of severe cases will be amongst vaccine refusers (although efficacy is not perfect, it is extremely high in preventing serious cases).
Those who are more resistant will tend to know more of those severe cases, exposing them to that "knowing someone" issue. A significant amount of them will have their minds changed by it.
There may also be a nationalism incentive as well - the UK has high levels of vaccine uptake in comparison to many others (such as France, just next door). When the UK's deaths and hospitalisations come way down and restrictions are progressively lifted, while more anitvax-dominated countries remain in the mire, that will provide another push. It's unpleasant to consider the state of those other countries, but possibly the same effect will work for them as well. Competitiveness with national pride working for a positive cause.
Again whilst I do agree with the basic point, we do have a duty of care for those who currently cannot have the vaccine. There may not be millions of them but they will be a significant minority and they have as much right to go out and enjoy life as the rest of us. Saying they have to stay permanently - or even temporarily - in isolation just because some people refuse to have the vaccine seems a wrong headed way to approach things.
I believe current advice is for women who are pregnant, or hoping to become pregnant in the near future, not to have the vaccine, so the unvaccinated population will include lots of people who would otherwise want to be vaccinated.
I hope we achieve sufficient vaccination uptake to protect those people. It would be horrible for them to not only die of Coronavirus because we hadn't, but to be tarred as anti-vaxxers receiving their just desserts at the same time would be worse.
Its going to be a right waste when they shoot him.
Well that hasn't exactly cheered me up on this drab and dreary day.
Apologies. A poor attempt at humour.
Why? You have a point! Reagan hadn't made it 3 months before they shot him. Going off the state of America you have to ask if Biden will make it to 3 weeks.
Or to the end of his inauguration, if Trump's DoD still has final say as to the deployment of the National Guard.
I don't see the problem with ID cards that can show things like Covid vaccination status. "You can't do x unless you show us y" is a problem because what? Liberty? How about my liberty in not catching Covid from some ignorant scrote?
Will, I think, be a very widely-held view. Protect my safety - or go whistle for my custom.
Genuinely surprised how many people want us to become a papers demanding society.
Not in my name. And I say this as someone who wants to be back to normal ASAP.
Don't be silly. If I say that I think it's reasonable that there are ticket inspectors on buses, and passport control at airports, is that a symptom of a wider hope on my part that we become a "papers demanding society"?
Lots on here seem to want an ID card or certificate relating to your health that can be demanded at will for very normal activities.
That strikes me as a very illiberal development. I am 100% against it. Incidentally, I also can't see many employers going for it.
The wider issue will be not just air travel, but where else you will have to show a vaccination certificate before access is allowed. Cinemas? Nightclubs? Restaurants? Work in hospitality? Access to shops? It is quite easy to envisage an economy where you are very largely excluded without such a certificate. It may not be compulsory - but there will nonetheless be health apartheid.
Pretty sure it will be deemed illegal to favour customers in such a way.
Private businesses can refuse service if they wish - the only caveat is that such refusal must not be discriminatory as defined by the Equalities Act. It seems unlikely that the Act will be extended to cover discrimination against vaccine refusniks.
Almost certainly the opposite is true. "We refuse to serve you on the basis that you may infect our staff. To ignore this risk to their welfare puts us at risk under the Health and Safety at Work Act".
The kind of people who are refusing to wear masks. Being able to throw them out will be pretty satisfying to a lot of people who work in retail.
That is the point I was making - there's nothing to stop nightclubs, restaurants etc demanding proof of vaccination, mask wearing, no jeans etc etc as long as its not discriminatory. And that will obviously happen, the anti-lockdown so-called libertarians have been proved 100% wrong on Covid from a scientific viewpoint and also completely out of touch with public opinion.
I would suggest that a certificate is not needed - simply let passport control at airports/ports access an electronic list of those vaccinated, which can be uploaded from primary care data. However, given I work with health data and am aware of such interesting events as people having multiple deaths or giving birth aged 93, I accept that may not be foolproof.
A sufficiently successful vaccination programme will also make certification unnecessary - the goal should be to reach herd immunity (indeed, beyond the minimum level) through mass vaccination and eradicate Covid in any meaningful sense in this country (sporadic cases may pop up, but Covid will have nowhere to go). Once that is done, airlines will no more want to see proof of a Covid vaccination than of a smallpox vaccination. There will of course be a period of time when many are vaccinated but Covid is still a threat, so in the short term some proof may be useful.
Also, I feel your pain re your friend. My father in law, whom I like very much and go to (well, used to when that was possible) the pub with on a fairly regular basis is doubtful the moon landings ever took place. He says this mostly to rile another friend who never fails to bite, but also seems to believe it himself. I, too, after once setting out why I believe him to be wrong, no longer engage on this.
I have found, in the past, that using the arguments of denialism too deny the existence of something obvious to be quite useful.
So I deny the existence of Australia.
That's a good idea. Next time it comes up I'll say that I don't believe the moon exists and see where that takes us
No. You need to deny something you can't obviously see. The moon will be seen that evening.
Deny Australia. Hell, deny the USA. Something you can't see.
Moon you say? No, I can't see it. Over there? No. Are you getting confused with a streetlight? Maybe some dust in your eye? Had few too many drinks?
Australia is *fun* to deny....
- Country built by dumping unwanted criminals accidentally ends up a liberal democracy. Yeah right. - Country with a mammal that lays eggs, has a ducks beak and poisonous.... thumbs. Yeah right - Country that fought and lost a war against flightless birds. Yeah right.
Not thumbs. Wrong digit and wrong foot. It's a spur off the heel area IIRC. But yes.
I don't see the problem with ID cards that can show things like Covid vaccination status. "You can't do x unless you show us y" is a problem because what? Liberty? How about my liberty in not catching Covid from some ignorant scrote?
Will, I think, be a very widely-held view. Protect my safety - or go whistle for my custom.
Genuinely surprised how many people want us to become a papers demanding society.
Not in my name. And I say this as someone who wants to be back to normal ASAP.
Don't be silly. If I say that I think it's reasonable that there are ticket inspectors on buses, and passport control at airports, is that a symptom of a wider hope on my part that we become a "papers demanding society"?
Lots on here seem to want an ID card or certificate relating to your health that can be demanded at will for very normal activities.
That strikes me as a very illiberal development. I am 100% against it. Incidentally, I also can't see many employers going for it.
Do you feel the same about National Trust cards or bus passes or Blockbuster video cards? (I know they no longer exist).
If we were talking about the authorities - the police etc - being able to inspect on demand then I would agree with you. We are not. I have opposed and still oppose a national ID system which has to be produced on demand. I don't oppose a driving licence which has to be produced under specific limited circumstances.
A health card showing you have had your jab which can be requested - or demanded to keep the language the same - by a shop or service provider is not the same as something the authorities can use to keep tabs on you. Trying to conflate the two is really not a viable argument.
I did manage to follow a chain of reasoning that led me to a rather dark place.
Without herd immunity, we are effectively offering people a choice: Injection, or Infection. Vaccine, or Virus.
Because without herd immunity, if it's circulating widely in the community, you will get exposed sooner or later. It has to happen.
The chain of reasoning started at making this clear to people. And then my mind said, "Of course, it would be totally morally wrong to force the issue by requiring people to be exposed to the virus under controlled conditions if they refuse the vaccine."
Then the argumentative side of me came back with, "Is it? I mean, if you start from the premise that they will eventually be exposed to it if they reject the vaccine, then surely it's actually significantly safer to expose them under controlled conditions, being monitored, and able to be given whatever medical care is necessary immediately. And it improves the herd immunity level for those who genuinely can't take it."
I have, of course, promptly ostracised that argumentative side, but I'm having difficulty disproving it, other than that it's only fair to give people a chance to change their mind. It could be a good short story for a dystopian future, but not right now, I think.
The wider issue will be not just air travel, but where else you will have to show a vaccination certificate before access is allowed. Cinemas? Nightclubs? Restaurants? Work in hospitality? Access to shops? It is quite easy to envisage an economy where you are very largely excluded without such a certificate. It may not be compulsory - but there will nonetheless be health apartheid.
Pretty sure it will be deemed illegal to favour customers in such a way.
Private businesses can refuse service if they wish - the only caveat is that such refusal must not be discriminatory as defined by the Equalities Act. It seems unlikely that the Act will be extended to cover discrimination against vaccine refusniks.
Almost certainly the opposite is true. "We refuse to serve you on the basis that you may infect our staff. To ignore this risk to their welfare puts us at risk under the Health and Safety at Work Act".
The kind of people who are refusing to wear masks. Being able to throw them out will be pretty satisfying to a lot of people who work in retail.
That is the point I was making - there's nothing to stop nightclubs, restaurants etc demanding proof of vaccination, mask wearing, no jeans etc etc as long as its not discriminatory. And that will obviously happen, the anti-lockdown so-called libertarians have been proved 100% wrong on Covid from a scientific viewpoint and also completely out of touch with public opinion.
They have also failed to answer the foreign travel question.
Hes not in great shape, never looked great, and is probably very tired. Doesn't add up to looking that well.
Sky's breaking news banner means we cannot see if Boris has gone for his full hospital photo-op garb and rolled his sleeves up as well as taking his jacket off and tucking his tie in.
The wider issue will be not just air travel, but where else you will have to show a vaccination certificate before access is allowed. Cinemas? Nightclubs? Restaurants? Work in hospitality? Access to shops? It is quite easy to envisage an economy where you are very largely excluded without such a certificate. It may not be compulsory - but there will nonetheless be health apartheid.
Pretty sure it will be deemed illegal to favour customers in such a way.
In particular discussing concerns about how delaying the second jab could lead to viral escape mutants (ie making antibody-resistant variants).
Ans: there is no data to determine whether this is more or less likely but timing is important (the sooner more people are vaccinated thus suppressing it, then there are fewer hosts upon which the virus could mutate).
They also talk about mixing vaccines and the timescale of vaccinating 2m people per week vs supply lines.
The wider issue will be not just air travel, but where else you will have to show a vaccination certificate before access is allowed. Cinemas? Nightclubs? Restaurants? Work in hospitality? Access to shops? It is quite easy to envisage an economy where you are very largely excluded without such a certificate. It may not be compulsory - but there will nonetheless be health apartheid.
If I want to drive a car on the road I have to prove that both the car and I are safe, fit to drive and not an undue threat to my fellow road users. If I want to go to a nightclub I may have to show that I am not an undue threat to my fellow clubbers by presenting evidence of vaccination. This is not apartheid, it is merely common sense.
Let us not forget that no trial (as far as I'm aware - @MaxPB?) has examined whether the vaccines prevent onwards transmission.
So you might be an undue threat to your fellow clubbers whether or not you have had the vaccine. If you haven't had the jab then the only danger is to yourself.
Correct, there is no real evidence that it stops transmission, we know there is a reduction in viral shedding in the Moderna, Pfizer and some AZ trial participants but not whether it is enough to prevent immunised people from being infectious.
The wider issue will be not just air travel, but where else you will have to show a vaccination certificate before access is allowed. Cinemas? Nightclubs? Restaurants? Work in hospitality? Access to shops? It is quite easy to envisage an economy where you are very largely excluded without such a certificate. It may not be compulsory - but there will nonetheless be health apartheid.
Pretty sure it will be deemed illegal to favour customers in such a way.
How can you prevent people using risk to public health as a criteria for entry?
Because it will fundamentally restrict liberties?
I don't understand why anyone medically able to have it won't want it, but thats just me.
Preventing people with poor-eyesight driving also restricts their liberties, but it needs doing.
It is tested as part of gaining a license, however.
Practicalities aside (forgeries would crop up in minutes, rendering them entirely worthless), it won't be happening because you don't need a license to go to the cinema, eat our etc
Except you do now.
There is a perfectly good existing analogy: trying to buy alcohol when you look around the 18 year old mark. The system works just fine.
Fancy a sporting bet? I'll pay £25 to site funds if a vaccination certificate is required by law to go to the cinema or eat at a restaurant, you'll pay £25 to site funds if no such law is passed? Happy to have someone adjudicate if you like.
I would offer that bet too. So if you get too much demand let me know.
I don't think we're going to have a big problem with anti-vaxxers in this country.
The bigger challenge is that given our "open" economy we have gross immigration in the range of 400-600k a year from all over the world, and many many more business visitors and tourists.
That means as long as Covid-19 circulates in the wider world, it will occasionally flare up again here too. We need a much better strategy for visitors, tourists and immigrants - probably certificates of their own.
The wider issue will be not just air travel, but where else you will have to show a vaccination certificate before access is allowed. Cinemas? Nightclubs? Restaurants? Work in hospitality? Access to shops? It is quite easy to envisage an economy where you are very largely excluded without such a certificate. It may not be compulsory - but there will nonetheless be health apartheid.
Pretty sure it will be deemed illegal to favour customers in such a way.
Not sure on what legal grounds you say that. "Unvaccinated" is not a protected characteristic under the Equality Act or otherwise and I can't see Parliament legislating to make it so. You could try and argue that anti-vaxx is a deeply held philosophical belief and shoehorn it it into "religion or philosophical belief" that way but it's not convincing and there would be a legitimate health ground for wht would be, at worse, indirect discrimination.
I think there will be a small (but vocal) cohort who will refuse for religious reasons, because most of the vaccines are developed with or tested via cell lines developed from aborted fetal cells. My mum is in this category, I thought about it considerably before deciding that I wouldn't regard it as a reason not to be vaccinated. I'm very strongly pro-life, but personally take the view that now those cell lines exist, to refuse to use them and therefore allow people to die of a preventable disease is worse than taking the moral high ground just because the way those cell lines were created is morally appalling.
Discriminating against those who refuse a vaccine for this reason is clearly religious discrimination, and so challenges should succeed under the Equality Act.
I don't think we're going to have a big problem with anti-vaxxers in this country.
The bigger challenge is that given our "open" economy we have gross immigration in the range of 400-600k a year from all over the world, and many many more business visitors and tourists.
That means as long as Covid-19 circulates in the wider world, it will occasionally flare up again here too. We need a much better strategy for visitors, tourists and immigrants - probably certificates of their own.
In which case we will likely need them to travel abroad also.
I don't think we're going to have a big problem with anti-vaxxers in this country.
The bigger challenge is that given our "open" economy we have gross immigration in the range of 400-600k a year from all over the world, and many many more business visitors and tourists.
That means as long as Covid-19 circulates in the wider world, it will occasionally flare up again here too. We need a much better strategy for visitors, tourists and immigrants - probably certificates of their own.
Vaccine passports to enter the UK, it's really not that difficult.
I don't see the problem with ID cards that can show things like Covid vaccination status. "You can't do x unless you show us y" is a problem because what? Liberty? How about my liberty in not catching Covid from some ignorant scrote?
Will, I think, be a very widely-held view. Protect my safety - or go whistle for my custom.
Genuinely surprised how many people want us to become a papers demanding society.
Not in my name. And I say this as someone who wants to be back to normal ASAP.
Don't be silly. If I say that I think it's reasonable that there are ticket inspectors on buses, and passport control at airports, is that a symptom of a wider hope on my part that we become a "papers demanding society"?
Lots on here seem to want an ID card or certificate relating to your health that can be demanded at will for very normal activities.
That strikes me as a very illiberal development. I am 100% against it. Incidentally, I also can't see many employers going for it.
It is a simple, obvious and proportionate way of very effectively reducing exposure to the risk of life threatening illness. You can pretend that nobody would genuinely think that, and it must be a mask for a wider plan to control and enslave the population, if you like. Employers have duties of care to their employees and customers which make it likely that they would be huge enthusiasts for the idea if they or their insurers have any sense.
ON topic, of COURSE you will need a vaccine visa to travel, eat out, use public transport, stay in a hotel, fly, take a cab, do any jobs requiring interaction, go to the theatre, basically live.
We had ID cards in the War, we will have vaccine visas for a few years. Other countries are already on the case, not just rule-following Asians.
You will probably be allowed, at least at first, to refuse a vaccine, but then you won't get your Vaccine Visa, meaning it will be almost impossible to do most normal things. A tiny percentage will hold out.
“There was no epic fantasy when when LOTR was written.”
There was the Edda etc. Let’s take a quick peak at it. The wise woman’s prophecy
Who’s in it? Well...
There was Motsognir | the mightiest made Of all the dwarfs, | and Durin next; Many a likeness | of men they made, The dwarfs in the earth, | as Durin said. 11. Nyi and Nithi, | Northri and Suthri, Austri and Vestri, | Althjof, Dvalin, Nar and Nain, | Niping, Dain, Bifur, Bofur, | Bombur, Nori, An and Onar, | Ai, Mjothvitnir.
Vigg and Gandalf) | Vindalf, Thrain, Thekk and Thorin, | Thror, Vit and Lit, Nyr and Nyrath,-- | now have I told-- Regin and Rathsvith-- | the list aright. 13. Fili, Kili, | Fundin, Nali, Heptifili, | Hannar, Sviur, Frar, Hornbori, | Fræg and Loni, Aurvang, Jari, | Eikinskjaldi. 14. The race of the dwarfs | in Dvalin's throng Down to Lofar | the list must I tell; The rocks they left, | and through wet lands They sought a home | in the fields of sand. 15. There were Draupnir | and Dolgthrasir, Hor, Haugspori, | Hlevang, Gloin, Dori, Ori, | Duf, Andvari, Skirfir, Virfir, | Skafith, Ai. 16. Alf and Yngvi, | Eikinskjaldi, Fjalar and Frosti, | Fith and Ginnar; So for all time | shall the tale be known, The list of all | the forbears of Lofar.
Certainly I agree vaccination should be compulsory for all over 50s or those with medical conditions who are most at need.
Others can take their chances
Talk us through the physical realities of compulsorily vaccinating an unwilling vaccinee.
£1000 fines automatically applied for refusal to be vaccinated if in a high at risk group, will also help fund the NHS bills if you then go on to get Covid having refused a vaccine and need hospital treatment
Compulsory medical treatment is simply not acceptable in a free society. Or are you still in your we're in charge and we can do anything phase ?
Which is not to say that vaccinations can't be required for (eg) airline travel, or that those who refuse to be vaccinated aren't selfish or foolish.
I don't see the problem with ID cards that can show things like Covid vaccination status. "You can't do x unless you show us y" is a problem because what? Liberty? How about my liberty in not catching Covid from some ignorant scrote?
Did you see the problem with ID cards the last time the government tried to introduce them?
Have you heard any mention of government plans to introduce ID cards or Vaccination Certificates now? Absent any government-issued documentation, how does anyone prove to their pub or travel agent they have had the jab, even if those places want to know?
I was an open supporter of ID cards 15 years ago. I have to show my ID for all kinds of things already, so condensing all of this into a simple unified platform makes sense.
I should explain to my fellow posters that I have not been posting a lot recently mainly as I have little knowledge of US politics, other than Trump needs to disappear from the scene, but also I am experiencing a very serious and difficult mental health issue with a member of my family, To make matters worse he lives abroad and neither my wife or I can go to help him and his wife
He is likely to enter mental health care with the possibility even of ECT treatment, so at present my attention is somewhat elsewhere and I do recoil at some occasional unfair references to mental health accusations to people who are not suffering the severe consequences of such an issue
I would though confirm that I am moving to a more neutral position with HMG and if Starmer can occupy the middle ground, accept Brexit, and leave behind the extremes in his party, than my vote in 2024 will be up for grabs, as long as I keep taking my pills and get vaccinated
I don't think we're going to have a big problem with anti-vaxxers in this country.
The bigger challenge is that given our "open" economy we have gross immigration in the range of 400-600k a year from all over the world, and many many more business visitors and tourists.
That means as long as Covid-19 circulates in the wider world, it will occasionally flare up again here too. We need a much better strategy for visitors, tourists and immigrants - probably certificates of their own.
Yes, there are two aspects to this I guess: 1) do we anticipate other countries possible demands for proof of vaccination? and 2) do we insist that foreigners are vaccinated and can prove it when they visit here?
There may also be PCR test requirements on top, for us or them.
Certainly I agree vaccination should be compulsory for all over 50s or those with medical conditions who are most at need.
Others can take their chances
Talk us through the physical realities of compulsorily vaccinating an unwilling vaccinee.
£1000 fines automatically applied for refusal to be vaccinated if in a high at risk group, will also help fund the NHS bills if you then go on to get Covid having refused a vaccine and need hospital treatment
Compulsory medical treatment is simply not acceptable in a free society. Or are you still in your we're in charge and we can do anything phase ?
Which is not to say that vaccinations can't be required for (eg) airline travel, or that those who refuse to be vaccinated aren't selfish or foolish.
Yes, the nudge route is definitely the way forwards. Fines are not the way forwards.
The wider issue will be not just air travel, but where else you will have to show a vaccination certificate before access is allowed. Cinemas? Nightclubs? Restaurants? Work in hospitality? Access to shops? It is quite easy to envisage an economy where you are very largely excluded without such a certificate. It may not be compulsory - but there will nonetheless be health apartheid.
Pretty sure it will be deemed illegal to favour customers in such a way.
Private businesses can refuse service if they wish - the only caveat is that such refusal must not be discriminatory as defined by the Equalities Act. It seems unlikely that the Act will be extended to cover discrimination against vaccine refusniks.
Almost certainly the opposite is true. "We refuse to serve you on the basis that you may infect our staff. To ignore this risk to their welfare puts us at risk under the Health and Safety at Work Act".
The kind of people who are refusing to wear masks. Being able to throw them out will be pretty satisfying to a lot of people who work in retail.
That is the point I was making - there's nothing to stop nightclubs, restaurants etc demanding proof of vaccination, mask wearing, no jeans etc etc as long as its not discriminatory. And that will obviously happen, the anti-lockdown so-called libertarians have been proved 100% wrong on Covid from a scientific viewpoint and also completely out of touch with public opinion.
There are plenty of libertarians both individuals like me and those running some of the organisations who are very clear on the risks from and the need to combat Covid exactly along the lines suggested by the scientists. In fact the majority of those who self declare as libertarian on here are on board with the mainstream view. It is about rights and responsibilities not just attacking everything the authorities say out of principle.
I don't think we're going to have a big problem with anti-vaxxers in this country.
The bigger challenge is that given our "open" economy we have gross immigration in the range of 400-600k a year from all over the world, and many many more business visitors and tourists.
That means as long as Covid-19 circulates in the wider world, it will occasionally flare up again here too. We need a much better strategy for visitors, tourists and immigrants - probably certificates of their own.
Yes, there are two aspects to this I guess: 1) do we anticipate other countries possible demands for proof of vaccination? and 2) do we insist that foreigners are vaccinated and can prove it when they visit here?
There may also be PCR test requirements on top, for us or them.
(1) Yes and (2) I expect we'll prevaricate and equivocate.
I don't think we're going to have a big problem with anti-vaxxers in this country.
The bigger challenge is that given our "open" economy we have gross immigration in the range of 400-600k a year from all over the world, and many many more business visitors and tourists.
That means as long as Covid-19 circulates in the wider world, it will occasionally flare up again here too. We need a much better strategy for visitors, tourists and immigrants - probably certificates of their own.
Vaccine passports to enter the UK, it's really not that difficult.
In order to protect the NHS, though. Because we can't have a lot of people coming here and then they overwhelm the NHS.
Because of course we don't need people to be vaccinated to stop spreading the virus.
ON topic, of COURSE you will need a vaccine visa to travel, eat out, use public transport, stay in a hotel, fly, take a cab, do any jobs requiring interaction, go to the theatre, basically live.
We had ID cards in the War, we will have vaccine visas for a few years. Other countries are already on the case, not just rule-following Asians.
You will probably be allowed, at least at first, to refuse a vaccine, but then you won't get your Vaccine Visa, meaning it will be almost impossible to do most normal things. A tiny percentage will hold out.
I find these the ramblings of people stuck in a winter lockdown.
If you think businesses (I mean cabbies is the most ridiculous, have you ever met any?!) are going to be turning away customers after what will likely be a terrible 12-18 months, I have a bridge to sell you.
Restaurants weren't even enforcing the track and trace. Of the rule of 6. Mid-pandemic.
I should explain to my fellow posters that I have not been posting a lot recently mainly as I have little knowledge of US politics, other than Trump needs to disappear from the scene, but also I am experiencing a very serious and difficult mental health issue with a member of my family, To make matters worse he lives abroad and neither my wife or I can go to help him and his wife
He is likely to enter mental health care with the possibility even of ECT treatment, so at present my attention is somewhat elsewhere and I do recoil at some occasional unfair references to mental health accusations to people who are not suffering the severe consequences of such an issue
I would though confirm that I am moving to a more neutral position with HMG and if Starmer can occupy the middle ground, accept Brexit, and leave behind the extremes in his party, than my vote in 2024 will be up for grabs, as long as I keep taking my pills and get vaccinated
Very sorry to hear that Big G. I know first hand how hard it can be when you have a close family member with health problems but you live far from them. Me and my brother spent most of 2014 and 2015 shuttling back and forth across the Atlantic to help our father in his last illness. I cannot imagine what it would have been like for us and him if we'd been unable to travel because of a pandemic back then.
However, tired, however ill, I fail to believe either factor has in any way diminished the PM's mental capacity.
No, his level of incompetence and capacity for flexibility with the truth has been clear for many years. Johnson's mental capacity - or the lack of it - was not affected by his brush with Covid.
I don't see the problem with ID cards that can show things like Covid vaccination status. "You can't do x unless you show us y" is a problem because what? Liberty? How about my liberty in not catching Covid from some ignorant scrote?
Will, I think, be a very widely-held view. Protect my safety - or go whistle for my custom.
Genuinely surprised how many people want us to become a papers demanding society.
Not in my name. And I say this as someone who wants to be back to normal ASAP.
Don't be silly. If I say that I think it's reasonable that there are ticket inspectors on buses, and passport control at airports, is that a symptom of a wider hope on my part that we become a "papers demanding society"?
Lots on here seem to want an ID card or certificate relating to your health that can be demanded at will for very normal activities.
That strikes me as a very illiberal development. I am 100% against it. Incidentally, I also can't see many employers going for it.
It is a simple, obvious and proportionate way of very effectively reducing exposure to the risk of life threatening illness. You can pretend that nobody would genuinely think that, and it must be a mask for a wider plan to control and enslave the population, if you like. Employers have duties of care to their employees and customers which make it likely that they would be huge enthusiasts for the idea if they or their insurers have any sense.
How? The vast majority of people will be vaccinated. Who is the risk/liability to if most are protected, but there are refusenik some idiots?
We don't ask people to prove they have an MMR. And many don't....
I don't think we're going to have a big problem with anti-vaxxers in this country.
The bigger challenge is that given our "open" economy we have gross immigration in the range of 400-600k a year from all over the world, and many many more business visitors and tourists.
That means as long as Covid-19 circulates in the wider world, it will occasionally flare up again here too. We need a much better strategy for visitors, tourists and immigrants - probably certificates of their own.
Vaccine passports to enter the UK, it's really not that difficult.
We would need to be sure they are genuine if we go down that route.
I should explain to my fellow posters that I have not been posting a lot recently mainly as I have little knowledge of US politics, other than Trump needs to disappear from the scene, but also I am experiencing a very serious and difficult mental health issue with a member of my family, To make matters worse he lives abroad and neither my wife or I can go to help him and his wife
He is likely to enter mental health care with the possibility even of ECT treatment, so at present my attention is somewhat elsewhere and I do recoil at some occasional unfair references to mental health accusations to people who are not suffering the severe consequences of such an issue
I would though confirm that I am moving to a more neutral position with HMG and if Starmer can occupy the middle ground, accept Brexit, and leave behind the extremes in his party, than my vote in 2024 will be up for grabs, as long as I keep taking my pills and get vaccinated
Sorry to hear that Big Man. Hope your relative gets the care he needs.
The wider issue will be not just air travel, but where else you will have to show a vaccination certificate before access is allowed. Cinemas? Nightclubs? Restaurants? Work in hospitality? Access to shops? It is quite easy to envisage an economy where you are very largely excluded without such a certificate. It may not be compulsory - but there will nonetheless be health apartheid.
Pretty sure it will be deemed illegal to favour customers in such a way.
Private businesses can refuse service if they wish - the only caveat is that such refusal must not be discriminatory as defined by the Equalities Act. It seems unlikely that the Act will be extended to cover discrimination against vaccine refusniks.
Almost certainly the opposite is true. "We refuse to serve you on the basis that you may infect our staff. To ignore this risk to their welfare puts us at risk under the Health and Safety at Work Act".
The kind of people who are refusing to wear masks. Being able to throw them out will be pretty satisfying to a lot of people who work in retail.
That is the point I was making - there's nothing to stop nightclubs, restaurants etc demanding proof of vaccination, mask wearing, no jeans etc etc as long as its not discriminatory. And that will obviously happen, the anti-lockdown so-called libertarians have been proved 100% wrong on Covid from a scientific viewpoint and also completely out of touch with public opinion.
There are plenty of libertarians both individuals like me and those running some of the organisations who are very clear on the risks from and the need to combat Covid exactly along the lines suggested by the scientists. In fact the majority of those who self declare as libertarian on here are on board with the mainstream view. It is about rights and responsibilities not just attacking everything the authorities say out of principle.
I think in a pandemic collective responsibility trumps individual right. We're effectively at war with an invisible, deadly adversary. Moaning about freedoms while 4,000 people per day are being hospitalised, cancer treatments are being cancelled, ambulances aren't able to reach stroke victims in time for treatment, people who suffer heart attacks are dying at home waiting for paramedics to arrive and people with minor issues such as broken bones are simply being made to wait in agony.
This isn't the time to bang on about "my freedom". It's the time for the country to pull together and do whatever it takes to defeat the virus.
I should explain to my fellow posters that I have not been posting a lot recently mainly as I have little knowledge of US politics, other than Trump needs to disappear from the scene, but also I am experiencing a very serious and difficult mental health issue with a member of my family, To make matters worse he lives abroad and neither my wife or I can go to help him and his wife
He is likely to enter mental health care with the possibility even of ECT treatment, so at present my attention is somewhat elsewhere and I do recoil at some occasional unfair references to mental health accusations to people who are not suffering the severe consequences of such an issue
I would though confirm that I am moving to a more neutral position with HMG and if Starmer can occupy the middle ground, accept Brexit, and leave behind the extremes in his party, than my vote in 2024 will be up for grabs, as long as I keep taking my pills and get vaccinated
Best of luck. I guess the not being able to help must make it doubly difficult.
I should explain to my fellow posters that I have not been posting a lot recently mainly as I have little knowledge of US politics, other than Trump needs to disappear from the scene, but also I am experiencing a very serious and difficult mental health issue with a member of my family, To make matters worse he lives abroad and neither my wife or I can go to help him and his wife
He is likely to enter mental health care with the possibility even of ECT treatment, so at present my attention is somewhat elsewhere and I do recoil at some occasional unfair references to mental health accusations to people who are not suffering the severe consequences of such an issue
I would though confirm that I am moving to a more neutral position with HMG and if Starmer can occupy the middle ground, accept Brexit, and leave behind the extremes in his party, than my vote in 2024 will be up for grabs, as long as I keep taking my pills and get vaccinated
Best wishes for your family member. What might be more interesting from pollsters than current voting intentions this far from an election, would be which parties (plural) might you consider voting for in 2024. On that measure Starmer might be doing quite well?
The wider issue will be not just air travel, but where else you will have to show a vaccination certificate before access is allowed. Cinemas? Nightclubs? Restaurants? Work in hospitality? Access to shops? It is quite easy to envisage an economy where you are very largely excluded without such a certificate. It may not be compulsory - but there will nonetheless be health apartheid.
Pretty sure it will be deemed illegal to favour customers in such a way.
Not sure on what legal grounds you say that. "Unvaccinated" is not a protected characteristic under the Equality Act or otherwise and I can't see Parliament legislating to make it so. You could try and argue that anti-vaxx is a deeply held philosophical belief and shoehorn it it into "religion or philosophical belief" that way but it's not convincing and there would be a legitimate health ground for wht would be, at worse, indirect discrimination.
I think there will be a small (but vocal) cohort who will refuse for religious reasons, because most of the vaccines are developed with or tested via cell lines developed from aborted fetal cells. My mum is in this category, I thought about it considerably before deciding that I wouldn't regard it as a reason not to be vaccinated. I'm very strongly pro-life, but personally take the view that now those cell lines exist, to refuse to use them and therefore allow people to die of a preventable disease is worse than taking the moral high ground just because the way those cell lines were created is morally appalling.
Discriminating against those who refuse a vaccine for this reason is clearly religious discrimination, and so challenges should succeed under the Equality Act.
Whilst not being personal , it is crazy in 21st century Britain to have "religious " exemptions . Insulting to those who have moral objections but dont believe in a man in the sky to back them up. Just dont do "let me see your papers" crap laws in the first place at all
I don't see the problem with ID cards that can show things like Covid vaccination status. "You can't do x unless you show us y" is a problem because what? Liberty? How about my liberty in not catching Covid from some ignorant scrote?
Will, I think, be a very widely-held view. Protect my safety - or go whistle for my custom.
Genuinely surprised how many people want us to become a papers demanding society.
Not in my name. And I say this as someone who wants to be back to normal ASAP.
Don't be silly. If I say that I think it's reasonable that there are ticket inspectors on buses, and passport control at airports, is that a symptom of a wider hope on my part that we become a "papers demanding society"?
Lots on here seem to want an ID card or certificate relating to your health that can be demanded at will for very normal activities.
That strikes me as a very illiberal development. I am 100% against it. Incidentally, I also can't see many employers going for it.
It is a simple, obvious and proportionate way of very effectively reducing exposure to the risk of life threatening illness. You can pretend that nobody would genuinely think that, and it must be a mask for a wider plan to control and enslave the population, if you like. Employers have duties of care to their employees and customers which make it likely that they would be huge enthusiasts for the idea if they or their insurers have any sense.
How? The vast majority of people will be vaccinated. Who is the risk/liability to if most are protected, but there are refusenik some idiots?
We don't ask people to prove they have an MMR. And many don't....
I don't think we're going to have a big problem with anti-vaxxers in this country.
The bigger challenge is that given our "open" economy we have gross immigration in the range of 400-600k a year from all over the world, and many many more business visitors and tourists.
That means as long as Covid-19 circulates in the wider world, it will occasionally flare up again here too. We need a much better strategy for visitors, tourists and immigrants - probably certificates of their own.
Vaccine passports to enter the UK, it's really not that difficult.
In order to protect the NHS, though. Because we can't have a lot of people coming here and then they overwhelm the NHS.
Because of course we don't need people to be vaccinated to stop spreading the virus.
If we have achieved 80-90% of eligible people vaccinated then it's a much smaller issue.
The wider issue will be not just air travel, but where else you will have to show a vaccination certificate before access is allowed. Cinemas? Nightclubs? Restaurants? Work in hospitality? Access to shops? It is quite easy to envisage an economy where you are very largely excluded without such a certificate. It may not be compulsory - but there will nonetheless be health apartheid.
Pretty sure it will be deemed illegal to favour customers in such a way.
Private businesses can refuse service if they wish - the only caveat is that such refusal must not be discriminatory as defined by the Equalities Act. It seems unlikely that the Act will be extended to cover discrimination against vaccine refusniks.
Almost certainly the opposite is true. "We refuse to serve you on the basis that you may infect our staff. To ignore this risk to their welfare puts us at risk under the Health and Safety at Work Act".
The kind of people who are refusing to wear masks. Being able to throw them out will be pretty satisfying to a lot of people who work in retail.
That is the point I was making - there's nothing to stop nightclubs, restaurants etc demanding proof of vaccination, mask wearing, no jeans etc etc as long as its not discriminatory. And that will obviously happen, the anti-lockdown so-called libertarians have been proved 100% wrong on Covid from a scientific viewpoint and also completely out of touch with public opinion.
There are plenty of libertarians both individuals like me and those running some of the organisations who are very clear on the risks from and the need to combat Covid exactly along the lines suggested by the scientists. In fact the majority of those who self declare as libertarian on here are on board with the mainstream view. It is about rights and responsibilities not just attacking everything the authorities say out of principle.
I think in a pandemic collective responsibility trumps individual right. We're effectively at war with an invisible, deadly adversary. Moaning about freedoms while 4,000 people per day are being hospitalised, cancer treatments are being cancelled, ambulances aren't able to reach stroke victims in time for treatment, people who suffer heart attacks are dying at home waiting for paramedics to arrive and people with minor issues such as broken bones are simply being made to wait in agony.
This isn't the time to bang on about "my freedom". It's the time for the country to pull together and do whatever it takes to defeat the virus.
Indeed - but we're talking about a time AFTER now. When things are good again.
The idea that businesses are going to demand people are reminded about covid before they have a nice time at the theatre? Nah.
I don't see the problem with ID cards that can show things like Covid vaccination status. "You can't do x unless you show us y" is a problem because what? Liberty? How about my liberty in not catching Covid from some ignorant scrote?
Will, I think, be a very widely-held view. Protect my safety - or go whistle for my custom.
Genuinely surprised how many people want us to become a papers demanding society.
Not in my name. And I say this as someone who wants to be back to normal ASAP.
Don't be silly. If I say that I think it's reasonable that there are ticket inspectors on buses, and passport control at airports, is that a symptom of a wider hope on my part that we become a "papers demanding society"?
Lots on here seem to want an ID card or certificate relating to your health that can be demanded at will for very normal activities.
That strikes me as a very illiberal development. I am 100% against it. Incidentally, I also can't see many employers going for it.
It is a simple, obvious and proportionate way of very effectively reducing exposure to the risk of life threatening illness. You can pretend that nobody would genuinely think that, and it must be a mask for a wider plan to control and enslave the population, if you like. Employers have duties of care to their employees and customers which make it likely that they would be huge enthusiasts for the idea if they or their insurers have any sense.
How? The vast majority of people will be vaccinated. Who is the risk too if there are some idiots?
We don't ask people to prove they have an MMR. And many don't....
Pregnant women, those who have severe allergic reactions. That is just two groups to start with.
And we should consider refusing school entry to those who do not have the MMR.
I don't see the problem with ID cards that can show things like Covid vaccination status. "You can't do x unless you show us y" is a problem because what? Liberty? How about my liberty in not catching Covid from some ignorant scrote?
Will, I think, be a very widely-held view. Protect my safety - or go whistle for my custom.
Genuinely surprised how many people want us to become a papers demanding society.
Not in my name. And I say this as someone who wants to be back to normal ASAP.
Don't be silly. If I say that I think it's reasonable that there are ticket inspectors on buses, and passport control at airports, is that a symptom of a wider hope on my part that we become a "papers demanding society"?
Lots on here seem to want an ID card or certificate relating to your health that can be demanded at will for very normal activities.
That strikes me as a very illiberal development. I am 100% against it. Incidentally, I also can't see many employers going for it.
It is a simple, obvious and proportionate way of very effectively reducing exposure to the risk of life threatening illness. You can pretend that nobody would genuinely think that, and it must be a mask for a wider plan to control and enslave the population, if you like. Employers have duties of care to their employees and customers which make it likely that they would be huge enthusiasts for the idea if they or their insurers have any sense.
I don't understand the problem. We have had this horrendous virus which has destroyed our way of life. The only way to get back to normal is got get as many people vaccinated as quickly as possible. Sadly our society has bred a sizeable minority who think the rules don't apply to them, and just as they are helping spread the pox now they can help to reinfect us all 28 Weeks Later-style.
So why shouldn't the people who think there is a society and that we all have responsibilities to each other demand the people allowed out to mix have also done their bit for the public good? If the anti-vaxxers and selfish gits don't want to play then they don't get allowed to come back out into society. No you can't come in my pub or cinema or board this plane. Sod off.
Across the Irish Sea, the Virus Variant Formerly Known as Cockney Covid (now called B117) is roughly doubling as a proportion of new cases every week.
That means in about ten days it will be near enough 100% of all cases in Ireland. It looks like Ireland is going to be the guinea pig to see what Supercovid does to a country, when it completely takes over, before Britain
ON topic, of COURSE you will need a vaccine visa to travel, eat out, use public transport, stay in a hotel, fly, take a cab, do any jobs requiring interaction, go to the theatre, basically live.
We had ID cards in the War, we will have vaccine visas for a few years. Other countries are already on the case, not just rule-following Asians.
You will probably be allowed, at least at first, to refuse a vaccine, but then you won't get your Vaccine Visa, meaning it will be almost impossible to do most normal things. A tiny percentage will hold out.
I don't think we're going to have a big problem with anti-vaxxers in this country.
The bigger challenge is that given our "open" economy we have gross immigration in the range of 400-600k a year from all over the world, and many many more business visitors and tourists.
That means as long as Covid-19 circulates in the wider world, it will occasionally flare up again here too. We need a much better strategy for visitors, tourists and immigrants - probably certificates of their own.
Vaccine passports to enter the UK, it's really not that difficult.
In order to protect the NHS, though. Because we can't have a lot of people coming here and then they overwhelm the NHS.
Because of course we don't need people to be vaccinated to stop spreading the virus.
If we have achieved 80-90% of eligible people vaccinated then it's a much smaller issue.
It is of course but the debate around vaccinations is in danger of veering into the "vaccinate to stop giving someone else the virus".
I would suggest that a certificate is not needed - simply let passport control at airports/ports access an electronic list of those vaccinated, which can be uploaded from primary care data. However, given I work with health data and am aware of such interesting events as people having multiple deaths or giving birth aged 93, I accept that may not be foolproof.
A sufficiently successful vaccination programme will also make certification unnecessary - the goal should be to reach herd immunity (indeed, beyond the minimum level) through mass vaccination and eradicate Covid in any meaningful sense in this country (sporadic cases may pop up, but Covid will have nowhere to go). Once that is done, airlines will no more want to see proof of a Covid vaccination than of a smallpox vaccination. There will of course be a period of time when many are vaccinated but Covid is still a threat, so in the short term some proof may be useful.
Also, I feel your pain re your friend. My father in law, whom I like very much and go to (well, used to when that was possible) the pub with on a fairly regular basis is doubtful the moon landings ever took place. He says this mostly to rile another friend who never fails to bite, but also seems to believe it himself. I, too, after once setting out why I believe him to be wrong, no longer engage on this.
I have found, in the past, that using the arguments of denialism too deny the existence of something obvious to be quite useful.
So I deny the existence of Australia.
That's a good idea. Next time it comes up I'll say that I don't believe the moon exists and see where that takes us
No. You need to deny something you can't obviously see. The moon will be seen that evening.
Deny Australia. Hell, deny the USA. Something you can't see.
Moon you say? No, I can't see it. Over there? No. Are you getting confused with a streetlight? Maybe some dust in your eye? Had few too many drinks?
Australia is *fun* to deny....
- Country built by dumping unwanted criminals accidentally ends up a liberal democracy. Yeah right. - Country with a mammal that lays eggs, has a ducks beak and poisonous.... thumbs. Yeah right - Country that fought and lost a war against flightless birds. Yeah right.
Not to mention the absurd accent, which is clearly the product of an over-active imagination. There are no actual Australians; they are all just actors, who are obviously sworn to secrecy at all times on pain of losing their cushy jobs.
I don't see the problem with ID cards that can show things like Covid vaccination status. "You can't do x unless you show us y" is a problem because what? Liberty? How about my liberty in not catching Covid from some ignorant scrote?
Will, I think, be a very widely-held view. Protect my safety - or go whistle for my custom.
Genuinely surprised how many people want us to become a papers demanding society.
Not in my name. And I say this as someone who wants to be back to normal ASAP.
Don't be silly. If I say that I think it's reasonable that there are ticket inspectors on buses, and passport control at airports, is that a symptom of a wider hope on my part that we become a "papers demanding society"?
Lots on here seem to want an ID card or certificate relating to your health that can be demanded at will for very normal activities.
That strikes me as a very illiberal development. I am 100% against it. Incidentally, I also can't see many employers going for it.
It is a simple, obvious and proportionate way of very effectively reducing exposure to the risk of life threatening illness. You can pretend that nobody would genuinely think that, and it must be a mask for a wider plan to control and enslave the population, if you like. Employers have duties of care to their employees and customers which make it likely that they would be huge enthusiasts for the idea if they or their insurers have any sense.
I don't understand the problem. We have had this horrendous virus which has destroyed our way of life. The only way to get back to normal is got get as many people vaccinated as quickly as possible. Sadly our society has bred a sizeable minority who think the rules don't apply to them, and just as they are helping spread the pox now they can help to reinfect us all 28 Weeks Later-style.
So why shouldn't the people who think there is a society and that we all have responsibilities to each other demand the people allowed out to mix have also done their bit for the public good? If the anti-vaxxers and selfish gits don't want to play then they don't get allowed to come back out into society. No you can't come in my pub or cinema or board this plane. Sod off.
I'm not saying you're wrong but I don't like one aspect of what you said: "our society has bred a sizeable minority who think the rules don't apply to them" This is true, but doesn't really justify a rule being made.
Our rabbit needs to present his vaccination card* when he wants to stay in his holiday accommodation, to demonstrate that he isn't a health risk to the other guests.
No reason why this shouldn't apply to humans too.
*OK, so we show it on his behalf. If we let him look after it he would start to eat it.
I should explain to my fellow posters that I have not been posting a lot recently mainly as I have little knowledge of US politics, other than Trump needs to disappear from the scene, but also I am experiencing a very serious and difficult mental health issue with a member of my family, To make matters worse he lives abroad and neither my wife or I can go to help him and his wife
He is likely to enter mental health care with the possibility even of ECT treatment, so at present my attention is somewhat elsewhere and I do recoil at some occasional unfair references to mental health accusations to people who are not suffering the severe consequences of such an issue
I would though confirm that I am moving to a more neutral position with HMG and if Starmer can occupy the middle ground, accept Brexit, and leave behind the extremes in his party, than my vote in 2024 will be up for grabs, as long as I keep taking my pills and get vaccinated
Very sorry to hear that Big G. I know first hand how hard it can be when you have a close family member with health problems but you live far from them. Me and my brother spent most of 2014 and 2015 shuttling back and forth across the Atlantic to help our father in his last illness. I cannot imagine what it would have been like for us and him if we'd been unable to travel because of a pandemic back then.
Yes. We were due to fly to him in May (Canada) but of course BA cancelled the flights and refunded the air fares
However, our immediate need is for him to go into care and start the complex treatment he needs and lessen the stress on his nearest and dearest
I don't think we're going to have a big problem with anti-vaxxers in this country.
The bigger challenge is that given our "open" economy we have gross immigration in the range of 400-600k a year from all over the world, and many many more business visitors and tourists.
That means as long as Covid-19 circulates in the wider world, it will occasionally flare up again here too. We need a much better strategy for visitors, tourists and immigrants - probably certificates of their own.
Vaccine passports to enter the UK, it's really not that difficult.
In order to protect the NHS, though. Because we can't have a lot of people coming here and then they overwhelm the NHS.
Because of course we don't need people to be vaccinated to stop spreading the virus.
If we have achieved 80-90% of eligible people vaccinated then it's a much smaller issue.
It is of course but the debate around vaccinations is in danger of veering into the "vaccinate to stop giving someone else the virus".
Which is not the case.
We don't know if it is the case. My understanding is that with most diseases it is the case. But of course they have not tested for that yet.
“There was no epic fantasy when when LOTR was written.”
There was the Edda etc. Let’s take a quick peak at it. The wise woman’s prophecy
Who’s in it? Well...
There was Motsognir | the mightiest made Of all the dwarfs, | and Durin next; Many a likeness | of men they made, The dwarfs in the earth, | as Durin said. 11. Nyi and Nithi, | Northri and Suthri, Austri and Vestri, | Althjof, Dvalin, Nar and Nain, | Niping, Dain, Bifur, Bofur, | Bombur, Nori, An and Onar, | Ai, Mjothvitnir.
Vigg and Gandalf) | Vindalf, Thrain, Thekk and Thorin, | Thror, Vit and Lit, Nyr and Nyrath,-- | now have I told-- Regin and Rathsvith-- | the list aright. 13. Fili, Kili, | Fundin, Nali, Heptifili, | Hannar, Sviur, Frar, Hornbori, | Fræg and Loni, Aurvang, Jari, | Eikinskjaldi. 14. The race of the dwarfs | in Dvalin's throng Down to Lofar | the list must I tell; The rocks they left, | and through wet lands They sought a home | in the fields of sand. 15. There were Draupnir | and Dolgthrasir, Hor, Haugspori, | Hlevang, Gloin, Dori, Ori, | Duf, Andvari, Skirfir, Virfir, | Skafith, Ai. 16. Alf and Yngvi, | Eikinskjaldi, Fjalar and Frosti, | Fith and Ginnar; So for all time | shall the tale be known, The list of all | the forbears of Lofar.
I don't think we're going to have a big problem with anti-vaxxers in this country.
The bigger challenge is that given our "open" economy we have gross immigration in the range of 400-600k a year from all over the world, and many many more business visitors and tourists.
That means as long as Covid-19 circulates in the wider world, it will occasionally flare up again here too. We need a much better strategy for visitors, tourists and immigrants - probably certificates of their own.
Vaccine passports to enter the UK, it's really not that difficult.
In order to protect the NHS, though. Because we can't have a lot of people coming here and then they overwhelm the NHS.
Because of course we don't need people to be vaccinated to stop spreading the virus.
If we have achieved 80-90% of eligible people vaccinated then it's a much smaller issue.
It is of course but the debate around vaccinations is in danger of veering into the "vaccinate to stop giving someone else the virus".
Which is not the case.
It does become that eventually because the amount of virus in circulation drops and the R value drops to almost 0. Again, vaccines are both an individual and collective responsibility which is why the nudge method makes a lot of sense.
I don't see the problem with ID cards that can show things like Covid vaccination status. "You can't do x unless you show us y" is a problem because what? Liberty? How about my liberty in not catching Covid from some ignorant scrote?
Will, I think, be a very widely-held view. Protect my safety - or go whistle for my custom.
Genuinely surprised how many people want us to become a papers demanding society.
Not in my name. And I say this as someone who wants to be back to normal ASAP.
Don't be silly. If I say that I think it's reasonable that there are ticket inspectors on buses, and passport control at airports, is that a symptom of a wider hope on my part that we become a "papers demanding society"?
Lots on here seem to want an ID card or certificate relating to your health that can be demanded at will for very normal activities.
That strikes me as a very illiberal development. I am 100% against it. Incidentally, I also can't see many employers going for it.
It is a simple, obvious and proportionate way of very effectively reducing exposure to the risk of life threatening illness. You can pretend that nobody would genuinely think that, and it must be a mask for a wider plan to control and enslave the population, if you like. Employers have duties of care to their employees and customers which make it likely that they would be huge enthusiasts for the idea if they or their insurers have any sense.
I don't understand the problem. We have had this horrendous virus which has destroyed our way of life. The only way to get back to normal is got get as many people vaccinated as quickly as possible. Sadly our society has bred a sizeable minority who think the rules don't apply to them, and just as they are helping spread the pox now they can help to reinfect us all 28 Weeks Later-style.
So why shouldn't the people who think there is a society and that we all have responsibilities to each other demand the people allowed out to mix have also done their bit for the public good? If the anti-vaxxers and selfish gits don't want to play then they don't get allowed to come back out into society. No you can't come in my pub or cinema or board this plane. Sod off.
Getting vaccinated does nothing to prevent you spreading the pox. You would be being selfish in that you might take up an NHS bed. And that is something of course that most sentient beings would like to avoid, to say nothing of the actual illness which necessitates the visit.
I mean I can't really see this becoming my hobby horse but there is a lot of confusion around Covid so it's probably best not to make it any worse.
I would suggest that a certificate is not needed - simply let passport control at airports/ports access an electronic list of those vaccinated, which can be uploaded from primary care data. However, given I work with health data and am aware of such interesting events as people having multiple deaths or giving birth aged 93, I accept that may not be foolproof.
A sufficiently successful vaccination programme will also make certification unnecessary - the goal should be to reach herd immunity (indeed, beyond the minimum level) through mass vaccination and eradicate Covid in any meaningful sense in this country (sporadic cases may pop up, but Covid will have nowhere to go). Once that is done, airlines will no more want to see proof of a Covid vaccination than of a smallpox vaccination. There will of course be a period of time when many are vaccinated but Covid is still a threat, so in the short term some proof may be useful.
Also, I feel your pain re your friend. My father in law, whom I like very much and go to (well, used to when that was possible) the pub with on a fairly regular basis is doubtful the moon landings ever took place. He says this mostly to rile another friend who never fails to bite, but also seems to believe it himself. I, too, after once setting out why I believe him to be wrong, no longer engage on this.
I have found, in the past, that using the arguments of denialism too deny the existence of something obvious to be quite useful.
So I deny the existence of Australia.
That's a good idea. Next time it comes up I'll say that I don't believe the moon exists and see where that takes us
No. You need to deny something you can't obviously see. The moon will be seen that evening.
Deny Australia. Hell, deny the USA. Something you can't see.
I've been to Finland and I think those folks might be on to something. Helsinki looks and feels a lot like a smaller edition of Stockholm except for the local language which is so bizarre it has to have been made up.
I don't think we're going to have a big problem with anti-vaxxers in this country.
The bigger challenge is that given our "open" economy we have gross immigration in the range of 400-600k a year from all over the world, and many many more business visitors and tourists.
That means as long as Covid-19 circulates in the wider world, it will occasionally flare up again here too. We need a much better strategy for visitors, tourists and immigrants - probably certificates of their own.
Vaccine passports to enter the UK, it's really not that difficult.
In order to protect the NHS, though. Because we can't have a lot of people coming here and then they overwhelm the NHS.
Because of course we don't need people to be vaccinated to stop spreading the virus.
If we have achieved 80-90% of eligible people vaccinated then it's a much smaller issue.
It is of course but the debate around vaccinations is in danger of veering into the "vaccinate to stop giving someone else the virus".
Which is not the case.
It does become that eventually because the amount of virus in circulation drops and the R value drops to almost 0. Again, vaccines are both an individual and collective responsibility which is why the nudge method makes a lot of sense.
Indeed, the nudge is 'better for yourself', the public benefit wholly greater. There is no need for a sodding great hammer of jab certificates.
I don't see the problem with ID cards that can show things like Covid vaccination status. "You can't do x unless you show us y" is a problem because what? Liberty? How about my liberty in not catching Covid from some ignorant scrote?
Will, I think, be a very widely-held view. Protect my safety - or go whistle for my custom.
Genuinely surprised how many people want us to become a papers demanding society.
Not in my name. And I say this as someone who wants to be back to normal ASAP.
Don't be silly. If I say that I think it's reasonable that there are ticket inspectors on buses, and passport control at airports, is that a symptom of a wider hope on my part that we become a "papers demanding society"?
Lots on here seem to want an ID card or certificate relating to your health that can be demanded at will for very normal activities.
That strikes me as a very illiberal development. I am 100% against it. Incidentally, I also can't see many employers going for it.
It is a simple, obvious and proportionate way of very effectively reducing exposure to the risk of life threatening illness. You can pretend that nobody would genuinely think that, and it must be a mask for a wider plan to control and enslave the population, if you like. Employers have duties of care to their employees and customers which make it likely that they would be huge enthusiasts for the idea if they or their insurers have any sense.
I don't understand the problem. We have had this horrendous virus which has destroyed our way of life. The only way to get back to normal is got get as many people vaccinated as quickly as possible. Sadly our society has bred a sizeable minority who think the rules don't apply to them, and just as they are helping spread the pox now they can help to reinfect us all 28 Weeks Later-style.
So why shouldn't the people who think there is a society and that we all have responsibilities to each other demand the people allowed out to mix have also done their bit for the public good? If the anti-vaxxers and selfish gits don't want to play then they don't get allowed to come back out into society. No you can't come in my pub or cinema or board this plane. Sod off.
Getting vaccinated does nothing to prevent you spreading the pox. You would be being selfish in that you might take up an NHS bed. And that is something of course that most sentient beings would like to avoid, to say nothing of the actual illness which necessitates the visit.
I mean I can't really see this becoming my hobby horse but there is a lot of confusion around Covid so it's probably best not to make it any worse.
Not sure whether we know yet whether vaccination prevents transmission. But it certainly reduces the likelihood because there would be no coughing.
I don't think we're going to have a big problem with anti-vaxxers in this country.
The bigger challenge is that given our "open" economy we have gross immigration in the range of 400-600k a year from all over the world, and many many more business visitors and tourists.
That means as long as Covid-19 circulates in the wider world, it will occasionally flare up again here too. We need a much better strategy for visitors, tourists and immigrants - probably certificates of their own.
Vaccine passports to enter the UK, it's really not that difficult.
In order to protect the NHS, though. Because we can't have a lot of people coming here and then they overwhelm the NHS.
Because of course we don't need people to be vaccinated to stop spreading the virus.
If we have achieved 80-90% of eligible people vaccinated then it's a much smaller issue.
It is of course but the debate around vaccinations is in danger of veering into the "vaccinate to stop giving someone else the virus".
Which is not the case.
We don't know if it is the case. My understanding is that with most diseases it is the case. But of course they have not tested for that yet.
That is the point. They don't know. It might it might not ( @MaxPB has given some evidence of relative viral shedding).
But we will likely hear a lot about people being selfish by not getting vaccinated (no idea why people wouldn't want to but there you go). Which implies that without a vaccination people pass on the virus, while with one people won't.
That is simply not true. God knows there is enough fake news and disinformation and whatnot around now and propagating more does not help.
Comments
https://www.ross-shirejournal.co.uk/news/group-posts-coronavirus-theories-in-highland-shop-window-203471/
"No, it doesn't."
What?
"I've never been anywhere where it looks flat. There's always hills and slopes upwards and downwards. I mean, put a marble on the ground outside and it usually rolls away somewhere. You've got to really try to find a flat bit."
Okay, well, that all cancels out over...
"Prove it. Why shouldn't it end up always sloping up overall so we're in a massive bowl. Or down, so we're on a big ball."
(Yes, I know about gravity going towards the centre of a body rather than always 'down,' but I was playing with him)
But - but - it stands to reason that it'll cancel out
"Does it? Okay. Stand and reason."
Not in my name. And I say this as someone who wants to be back to normal ASAP.
"Excellent......"
Good header!
And such a tolerant chap you are. I'd have got quite agitated.
- Country built by dumping unwanted criminals accidentally ends up a liberal democracy. Yeah right.
- Country with a mammal that lays eggs, has a ducks beak and poisonous.... thumbs. Yeah right
- Country that fought and lost a war against flightless birds. Yeah right.
I think if everyone under the age of 30 was given 10 grand compensation for the lost year -- taken from the bank accounts of OllyT & Barnesian & OGH and all the old critters that have benefitted -- that would be fine.
It is still not a great bargain for the young -- 10 grand for a year of your magical youth -- that is very cheap.
The kind of people who are refusing to wear masks. Being able to throw them out will be pretty satisfying to a lot of people who work in retail.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09FKGkXpGqw
Have you heard any mention of government plans to introduce ID cards or Vaccination Certificates now? Absent any government-issued documentation, how does anyone prove to their pub or travel agent they have had the jab, even if those places want to know?
Restrictions will ease in stages. But I can't imagine us setting up an ID card system just for covid jab proofs.
How long does it last for? 3 months? 3 years? 30 years?
I hope we achieve sufficient vaccination uptake to protect those people. It would be horrible for them to not only die of Coronavirus because we hadn't, but to be tarred as anti-vaxxers receiving their just desserts at the same time would be worse.
That strikes me as a very illiberal development. I am 100% against it. Incidentally, I also can't see many employers going for it.
He looks fine to me, still full of bull.
If we were talking about the authorities - the police etc - being able to inspect on demand then I would agree with you. We are not. I have opposed and still oppose a national ID system which has to be produced on demand. I don't oppose a driving licence which has to be produced under specific limited circumstances.
A health card showing you have had your jab which can be requested - or demanded to keep the language the same - by a shop or service provider is not the same as something the authorities can use to keep tabs on you. Trying to conflate the two is really not a viable argument.
Without herd immunity, we are effectively offering people a choice: Injection, or Infection. Vaccine, or Virus.
Because without herd immunity, if it's circulating widely in the community, you will get exposed sooner or later. It has to happen.
The chain of reasoning started at making this clear to people. And then my mind said, "Of course, it would be totally morally wrong to force the issue by requiring people to be exposed to the virus under controlled conditions if they refuse the vaccine."
Then the argumentative side of me came back with, "Is it? I mean, if you start from the premise that they will eventually be exposed to it if they reject the vaccine, then surely it's actually significantly safer to expose them under controlled conditions, being monitored, and able to be given whatever medical care is necessary immediately. And it improves the herd immunity level for those who genuinely can't take it."
I have, of course, promptly ostracised that argumentative side, but I'm having difficulty disproving it, other than that it's only fair to give people a chance to change their mind. It could be a good short story for a dystopian future, but not right now, I think.
How much sleep is he getting?
However, tired, however ill, I fail to believe either factor has in any way diminished the PM's mental capacity.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000r605
In particular discussing concerns about how delaying the second jab could lead to viral escape mutants (ie making antibody-resistant variants).
Ans: there is no data to determine whether this is more or less likely but timing is important (the sooner more people are vaccinated thus suppressing it, then there are fewer hosts upon which the virus could mutate).
They also talk about mixing vaccines and the timescale of vaccinating 2m people per week vs supply lines.
They should have a daily episode of this show.
https://twitter.com/itvnews/status/1348660073611063298?s=20
I don't think we're going to have a big problem with anti-vaxxers in this country.
The bigger challenge is that given our "open" economy we have gross immigration in the range of 400-600k a year from all over the world, and many many more business visitors and tourists.
That means as long as Covid-19 circulates in the wider world, it will occasionally flare up again here too. We need a much better strategy for visitors, tourists and immigrants - probably certificates of their own.
Discriminating against those who refuse a vaccine for this reason is clearly religious discrimination, and so challenges should succeed under the Equality Act.
https://twitter.com/SecPompeo/status/1348615673799438338
We had ID cards in the War, we will have vaccine visas for a few years. Other countries are already on the case, not just rule-following Asians.
You will probably be allowed, at least at first, to refuse a vaccine, but then you won't get your Vaccine Visa, meaning it will be almost impossible to do most normal things. A tiny percentage will hold out.
https://twitter.com/eliefares/status/1346549539247960064?s=20
There was the Edda etc. Let’s take a quick peak at it.
The wise woman’s prophecy
Who’s in it? Well...
There was Motsognir | the mightiest made
Of all the dwarfs, | and Durin next;
Many a likeness | of men they made,
The dwarfs in the earth, | as Durin said.
11. Nyi and Nithi, | Northri and Suthri,
Austri and Vestri, | Althjof, Dvalin,
Nar and Nain, | Niping, Dain,
Bifur, Bofur, | Bombur, Nori,
An and Onar, | Ai, Mjothvitnir.
Vigg and Gandalf) | Vindalf, Thrain,
Thekk and Thorin, | Thror, Vit and Lit,
Nyr and Nyrath,-- | now have I told--
Regin and Rathsvith-- | the list aright.
13. Fili, Kili, | Fundin, Nali,
Heptifili, | Hannar, Sviur,
Frar, Hornbori, | Fræg and Loni,
Aurvang, Jari, | Eikinskjaldi.
14. The race of the dwarfs | in Dvalin's throng
Down to Lofar | the list must I tell;
The rocks they left, | and through wet lands
They sought a home | in the fields of sand.
15. There were Draupnir | and Dolgthrasir,
Hor, Haugspori, | Hlevang, Gloin,
Dori, Ori, | Duf, Andvari,
Skirfir, Virfir, | Skafith, Ai.
16. Alf and Yngvi, | Eikinskjaldi,
Fjalar and Frosti, | Fith and Ginnar;
So for all time | shall the tale be known,
The list of all | the forbears of Lofar.
Or are you still in your we're in charge and we can do anything phase ?
Which is not to say that vaccinations can't be required for (eg) airline travel, or that those who refuse to be vaccinated aren't selfish or foolish.
He is likely to enter mental health care with the possibility even of ECT treatment, so at present my attention is somewhat elsewhere and I do recoil at some occasional unfair references to mental health accusations to people who are not suffering the severe consequences of such an issue
I would though confirm that I am moving to a more neutral position with HMG and if Starmer can occupy the middle ground, accept Brexit, and leave behind the extremes in his party, than my vote in 2024 will be up for grabs, as long as I keep taking my pills and get vaccinated
There may also be PCR test requirements on top, for us or them.
Because of course we don't need people to be vaccinated to stop spreading the virus.
https://twitter.com/newschambers/status/1348663899139182613?s=20
If you think businesses (I mean cabbies is the most ridiculous, have you ever met any?!) are going to be turning away customers after what will likely be a terrible 12-18 months, I have a bridge to sell you.
Restaurants weren't even enforcing the track and trace. Of the rule of 6. Mid-pandemic.
We don't ask people to prove they have an MMR. And many don't....
This isn't the time to bang on about "my freedom". It's the time for the country to pull together and do whatever it takes to defeat the virus.
The idea that businesses are going to demand people are reminded about covid before they have a nice time at the theatre? Nah.
And we should consider refusing school entry to those who do not have the MMR.
So why shouldn't the people who think there is a society and that we all have responsibilities to each other demand the people allowed out to mix have also done their bit for the public good? If the anti-vaxxers and selfish gits don't want to play then they don't get allowed to come back out into society. No you can't come in my pub or cinema or board this plane. Sod off.
That means in about ten days it will be near enough 100% of all cases in Ireland. It looks like Ireland is going to be the guinea pig to see what Supercovid does to a country, when it completely takes over, before Britain
https://twitter.com/kakape/status/1348646701788262400?s=20
Which is not the case.
"our society has bred a sizeable minority who think the rules don't apply to them"
This is true, but doesn't really justify a rule being made.
No reason why this shouldn't apply to humans too.
*OK, so we show it on his behalf. If we let him look after it he would start to eat it.
However, our immediate need is for him to go into care and start the complex treatment he needs and lessen the stress on his nearest and dearest
I mean I can't really see this becoming my hobby horse but there is a lot of confusion around Covid so it's probably best not to make it any worse.
I've been to Finland and I think those folks might be on to something. Helsinki looks and feels a lot like a smaller edition of Stockholm except for the local language which is so bizarre it has to have been made up.
But we will likely hear a lot about people being selfish by not getting vaccinated (no idea why people wouldn't want to but there you go). Which implies that without a vaccination people pass on the virus, while with one people won't.
That is simply not true. God knows there is enough fake news and disinformation and whatnot around now and propagating more does not help.
Fantasy can lay claim to being the oldest of the genres.