Jabbing the Unjabbable (or, for the less polite, Pricking the Pricks) – politicalbetting.com

MaxPB said:

TOPPING said:

MaxPB said:

TOPPING said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

On topic, good article Stocky.

I don't think we're going to have a big problem with anti-vaxxers in this country.

The bigger challenge is that given our "open" economy we have gross immigration in the range of 400-600k a year from all over the world, and many many more business visitors and tourists.

That means as long as Covid-19 circulates in the wider world, it will occasionally flare up again here too. We need a much better strategy for visitors, tourists and immigrants - probably certificates of their own.

Vaccine passports to enter the UK, it's really not that difficult.

In order to protect the NHS, though. Because we can't have a lot of people coming here and then they overwhelm the NHS.

Because of course we don't need people to be vaccinated to stop spreading the virus.

If we have achieved 80-90% of eligible people vaccinated then it's a much smaller issue.

It is of course but the debate around vaccinations is in danger of veering into the "vaccinate to stop giving someone else the virus".

Which is not the case.

It does become that eventually because the amount of virus in circulation drops and the R value drops to almost 0. Again, vaccines are both an individual and collective responsibility which is why the nudge method makes a lot of sense.

state_go_away said:

theProle said:

DougSeal said:

Mortimer said:

MarqueeMark said:

The wider issue will be not just air travel, but where else you will have to show a vaccination certificate before access is allowed. Cinemas? Nightclubs? Restaurants? Work in hospitality? Access to shops? It is quite easy to envisage an economy where you are very largely excluded without such a certificate. It may not be compulsory - but there will nonetheless be health apartheid.

Pretty sure it will be deemed illegal to favour customers in such a way.

Not sure on what legal grounds you say that. "Unvaccinated" is not a protected characteristic under the Equality Act or otherwise and I can't see Parliament legislating to make it so. You could try and argue that anti-vaxx is a deeply held philosophical belief and shoehorn it it into "religion or philosophical belief" that way but it's not convincing and there would be a legitimate health ground for wht would be, at worse, indirect discrimination.

I think there will be a small (but vocal) cohort who will refuse for religious reasons, because most of the vaccines are developed with or tested via cell lines developed from aborted fetal cells. My mum is in this category, I thought about it considerably before deciding that I wouldn't regard it as a reason not to be vaccinated. I'm very strongly pro-life, but personally take the view that now those cell lines exist, to refuse to use them and therefore allow people to die of a preventable disease is worse than taking the moral high ground just because the way those cell lines were created is morally appalling.

Discriminating against those who refuse a vaccine for this reason is clearly religious discrimination, and so challenges should succeed under the Equality Act.

Whilst not being personal , it is crazy in 21st century Britain to have "religious " exemptions . Insulting to those who have moral objections but dont believe in a man in the sky to back them up. Just dont do "let me see your papers" crap laws in the first place at all

TOPPING said:

Stocky said:

TOPPING said:

RochdalePioneers said:

IshmaelZ said:

Mortimer said:

IshmaelZ said:

Mortimer said:

MarqueeMark said:

RochdalePioneers said:

I don't see the problem with ID cards that can show things like Covid vaccination status. "You can't do x unless you show us y" is a problem because what? Liberty? How about my liberty in not catching Covid from some ignorant scrote?

Will, I think, be a very widely-held view. Protect my safety - or go whistle for my custom.

Genuinely surprised how many people want us to become a papers demanding society.

Not in my name. And I say this as someone who wants to be back to normal ASAP.

Don't be silly. If I say that I think it's reasonable that there are ticket inspectors on buses, and passport control at airports, is that a symptom of a wider hope on my part that we become a "papers demanding society"?

Lots on here seem to want an ID card or certificate relating to your health that can be demanded at will for very normal activities.

That strikes me as a very illiberal development. I am 100% against it. Incidentally, I also can't see many employers going for it.

It is a simple, obvious and proportionate way of very effectively reducing exposure to the risk of life threatening illness. You can pretend that nobody would genuinely think that, and it must be a mask for a wider plan to control and enslave the population, if you like. Employers have duties of care to their employees and customers which make it likely that they would be huge enthusiasts for the idea if they or their insurers have any sense.

I don't understand the problem. We have had this horrendous virus which has destroyed our way of life. The only way to get back to normal is got get as many people vaccinated as quickly as possible. Sadly our society has bred a sizeable minority who think the rules don't apply to them, and just as they are helping spread the pox now they can help to reinfect us all 28 Weeks Later-style.

So why shouldn't the people who think there is a society and that we all have responsibilities to each other demand the people allowed out to mix have also done their bit for the public good? If the anti-vaxxers and selfish gits don't want to play then they don't get allowed to come back out into society. No you can't come in my pub or cinema or board this plane. Sod off.

Getting vaccinated does nothing to prevent you spreading the pox. You would be being selfish in that you might take up an NHS bed. And that is something of course that most sentient beings would like to avoid, to say nothing of the actual illness which necessitates the visit.

I mean I can't really see this becoming my hobby horse but there is a lot of confusion around Covid so it's probably best not to make it any worse.

Not sure whether we know yet whether vaccination prevents transmission. But it certainly reduces the likelihood because there would be no coughing.

Is a good point.

TOPPING said:

MaxPB said:

TOPPING said:

MaxPB said:

TOPPING said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

On topic, good article Stocky.

I don't think we're going to have a big problem with anti-vaxxers in this country.

The bigger challenge is that given our "open" economy we have gross immigration in the range of 400-600k a year from all over the world, and many many more business visitors and tourists.

That means as long as Covid-19 circulates in the wider world, it will occasionally flare up again here too. We need a much better strategy for visitors, tourists and immigrants - probably certificates of their own.

Vaccine passports to enter the UK, it's really not that difficult.

In order to protect the NHS, though. Because we can't have a lot of people coming here and then they overwhelm the NHS.

Because of course we don't need people to be vaccinated to stop spreading the virus.

If we have achieved 80-90% of eligible people vaccinated then it's a much smaller issue.

It is of course but the debate around vaccinations is in danger of veering into the "vaccinate to stop giving someone else the virus".

Which is not the case.

It does become that eventually because the amount of virus in circulation drops and the R value drops to almost 0. Again, vaccines are both an individual and collective responsibility which is why the nudge method makes a lot of sense.

Absolutely agree. But does the amount of virus in circulation change if people are vaccinated? If people are infected and have had the jab XX% of them will not show symptoms although they will still have had (and could possibly pass on) the virus.

Andy_Cooke said:

TOPPING said:

RochdalePioneers said:

IshmaelZ said:

Mortimer said:

IshmaelZ said:

Mortimer said:

MarqueeMark said:

RochdalePioneers said:

I don't see the problem with ID cards that can show things like Covid vaccination status. "You can't do x unless you show us y" is a problem because what? Liberty? How about my liberty in not catching Covid from some ignorant scrote?

Will, I think, be a very widely-held view. Protect my safety - or go whistle for my custom.

Genuinely surprised how many people want us to become a papers demanding society.

Not in my name. And I say this as someone who wants to be back to normal ASAP.

Don't be silly. If I say that I think it's reasonable that there are ticket inspectors on buses, and passport control at airports, is that a symptom of a wider hope on my part that we become a "papers demanding society"?

Lots on here seem to want an ID card or certificate relating to your health that can be demanded at will for very normal activities.

That strikes me as a very illiberal development. I am 100% against it. Incidentally, I also can't see many employers going for it.

It is a simple, obvious and proportionate way of very effectively reducing exposure to the risk of life threatening illness. You can pretend that nobody would genuinely think that, and it must be a mask for a wider plan to control and enslave the population, if you like. Employers have duties of care to their employees and customers which make it likely that they would be huge enthusiasts for the idea if they or their insurers have any sense.

I don't understand the problem. We have had this horrendous virus which has destroyed our way of life. The only way to get back to normal is got get as many people vaccinated as quickly as possible. Sadly our society has bred a sizeable minority who think the rules don't apply to them, and just as they are helping spread the pox now they can help to reinfect us all 28 Weeks Later-style.

So why shouldn't the people who think there is a society and that we all have responsibilities to each other demand the people allowed out to mix have also done their bit for the public good? If the anti-vaxxers and selfish gits don't want to play then they don't get allowed to come back out into society. No you can't come in my pub or cinema or board this plane. Sod off.

Getting vaccinated does nothing to prevent you spreading the pox. You would be being selfish in that you might take up an NHS bed. And that is something of course that most sentient beings would like to avoid, to say nothing of the actual illness which necessitates the visit.

I mean I can't really see this becoming my hobby horse but there is a lot of confusion around Covid so it's probably best not to make it any worse.

Are you sure?
I mean, we know that the evidence that it does reduce spread is yet to be clearly established (because it couldn't be established in the trials), but there is considerable theoretical and historical evidence that it should, at the very least, considerably reduce spread.

We can't say for sure that it does yet, which is why the Government are emphasising that we can't assume it, but you seem to be saying that it is established that it does not do so, which is a very different stance indeed.

Leon said:

TOPPING said:

Stocky said:

TOPPING said:

RochdalePioneers said:

IshmaelZ said:

Mortimer said:

IshmaelZ said:

Mortimer said:

MarqueeMark said:

RochdalePioneers said:

I don't see the problem with ID cards that can show things like Covid vaccination status. "You can't do x unless you show us y" is a problem because what? Liberty? How about my liberty in not catching Covid from some ignorant scrote?

Will, I think, be a very widely-held view. Protect my safety - or go whistle for my custom.

Genuinely surprised how many people want us to become a papers demanding society.

Not in my name. And I say this as someone who wants to be back to normal ASAP.

Don't be silly. If I say that I think it's reasonable that there are ticket inspectors on buses, and passport control at airports, is that a symptom of a wider hope on my part that we become a "papers demanding society"?

Lots on here seem to want an ID card or certificate relating to your health that can be demanded at will for very normal activities.

That strikes me as a very illiberal development. I am 100% against it. Incidentally, I also can't see many employers going for it.

It is a simple, obvious and proportionate way of very effectively reducing exposure to the risk of life threatening illness. You can pretend that nobody would genuinely think that, and it must be a mask for a wider plan to control and enslave the population, if you like. Employers have duties of care to their employees and customers which make it likely that they would be huge enthusiasts for the idea if they or their insurers have any sense.

I don't understand the problem. We have had this horrendous virus which has destroyed our way of life. The only way to get back to normal is got get as many people vaccinated as quickly as possible. Sadly our society has bred a sizeable minority who think the rules don't apply to them, and just as they are helping spread the pox now they can help to reinfect us all 28 Weeks Later-style.

So why shouldn't the people who think there is a society and that we all have responsibilities to each other demand the people allowed out to mix have also done their bit for the public good? If the anti-vaxxers and selfish gits don't want to play then they don't get allowed to come back out into society. No you can't come in my pub or cinema or board this plane. Sod off.

Getting vaccinated does nothing to prevent you spreading the pox. You would be being selfish in that you might take up an NHS bed. And that is something of course that most sentient beings would like to avoid, to say nothing of the actual illness which necessitates the visit.

I mean I can't really see this becoming my hobby horse but there is a lot of confusion around Covid so it's probably best not to make it any worse.

Not sure whether we know yet whether vaccination prevents transmission. But it certainly reduces the likelihood because there would be no coughing.

Is a good point.

Also, over time it does prevent transmission, simply because, if you are vaccinated, you can't catch it. And if you can't catch it, you cannot pass it on. Or am I missing something?

Andy_Cooke said:

TOPPING said:

RochdalePioneers said:

IshmaelZ said:

Mortimer said:

IshmaelZ said:

Mortimer said:

MarqueeMark said:

RochdalePioneers said:

I don't see the problem with ID cards that can show things like Covid vaccination status. "You can't do x unless you show us y" is a problem because what? Liberty? How about my liberty in not catching Covid from some ignorant scrote?

Will, I think, be a very widely-held view. Protect my safety - or go whistle for my custom.

Genuinely surprised how many people want us to become a papers demanding society.

Not in my name. And I say this as someone who wants to be back to normal ASAP.

Don't be silly. If I say that I think it's reasonable that there are ticket inspectors on buses, and passport control at airports, is that a symptom of a wider hope on my part that we become a "papers demanding society"?

Lots on here seem to want an ID card or certificate relating to your health that can be demanded at will for very normal activities.

That strikes me as a very illiberal development. I am 100% against it. Incidentally, I also can't see many employers going for it.

It is a simple, obvious and proportionate way of very effectively reducing exposure to the risk of life threatening illness. You can pretend that nobody would genuinely think that, and it must be a mask for a wider plan to control and enslave the population, if you like. Employers have duties of care to their employees and customers which make it likely that they would be huge enthusiasts for the idea if they or their insurers have any sense.

I don't understand the problem. We have had this horrendous virus which has destroyed our way of life. The only way to get back to normal is got get as many people vaccinated as quickly as possible. Sadly our society has bred a sizeable minority who think the rules don't apply to them, and just as they are helping spread the pox now they can help to reinfect us all 28 Weeks Later-style.

So why shouldn't the people who think there is a society and that we all have responsibilities to each other demand the people allowed out to mix have also done their bit for the public good? If the anti-vaxxers and selfish gits don't want to play then they don't get allowed to come back out into society. No you can't come in my pub or cinema or board this plane. Sod off.

Getting vaccinated does nothing to prevent you spreading the pox. You would be being selfish in that you might take up an NHS bed. And that is something of course that most sentient beings would like to avoid, to say nothing of the actual illness which necessitates the visit.

I mean I can't really see this becoming my hobby horse but there is a lot of confusion around Covid so it's probably best not to make it any worse.

Are you sure?
I mean, we know that the evidence that it does reduce spread is yet to be clearly established (because it couldn't be established in the trials), but there is considerable theoretical and historical evidence that it should, at the very least, considerably reduce spread.

We can't say for sure that it does yet, which is why the Government are emphasising that we can't assume it, but you seem to be saying that it is established that it does not do so, which is a very different stance indeed.

Stocky said:

state_go_away said:

theProle said:

DougSeal said:

Mortimer said:

MarqueeMark said:

The wider issue will be not just air travel, but where else you will have to show a vaccination certificate before access is allowed. Cinemas? Nightclubs? Restaurants? Work in hospitality? Access to shops? It is quite easy to envisage an economy where you are very largely excluded without such a certificate. It may not be compulsory - but there will nonetheless be health apartheid.

Pretty sure it will be deemed illegal to favour customers in such a way.

Not sure on what legal grounds you say that. "Unvaccinated" is not a protected characteristic under the Equality Act or otherwise and I can't see Parliament legislating to make it so. You could try and argue that anti-vaxx is a deeply held philosophical belief and shoehorn it it into "religion or philosophical belief" that way but it's not convincing and there would be a legitimate health ground for wht would be, at worse, indirect discrimination.

I think there will be a small (but vocal) cohort who will refuse for religious reasons, because most of the vaccines are developed with or tested via cell lines developed from aborted fetal cells. My mum is in this category, I thought about it considerably before deciding that I wouldn't regard it as a reason not to be vaccinated. I'm very strongly pro-life, but personally take the view that now those cell lines exist, to refuse to use them and therefore allow people to die of a preventable disease is worse than taking the moral high ground just because the way those cell lines were created is morally appalling.

Discriminating against those who refuse a vaccine for this reason is clearly religious discrimination, and so challenges should succeed under the Equality Act.

Whilst not being personal , it is crazy in 21st century Britain to have "religious " exemptions . Insulting to those who have moral objections but dont believe in a man in the sky to back them up. Just dont do "let me see your papers" crap laws in the first place at all

I agree - but what about when other nations demand it of us as a condition of entry into their country?

Big_G_NorthWales said:

I should explain to my fellow posters that I have not been posting a lot recently mainly as I have little knowledge of US politics, other than Trump needs to disappear from the scene, but also I am experiencing a very serious and difficult mental health issue with a member of my family, To make matters worse he lives abroad and neither my wife or I can go to help him and his wife

He is likely to enter mental health care with the possibility even of ECT treatment, so at present my attention is somewhat elsewhere and I do recoil at some occasional unfair references to mental health accusations to people who are not suffering the severe consequences of such an issue

I would though confirm that I am moving to a more neutral position with HMG and if Starmer can occupy the middle ground, accept Brexit, and leave behind the extremes in his party, than my vote in 2024 will be up for grabs, as long as I keep taking my pills and get vaccinated

Stocky said:

Andy_JS said:

Leon said:

ON topic, of COURSE you will need a vaccine visa to travel, eat out, use public transport, stay in a hotel, fly, take a cab, do any jobs requiring interaction, go to the theatre, basically live.

We had ID cards in the War, we will have vaccine visas for a few years. Other countries are already on the case, not just rule-following Asians.

You will probably be allowed, at least at first, to refuse a vaccine, but then you won't get your Vaccine Visa, meaning it will be almost impossible to do most normal things. A tiny percentage will hold out.

https://twitter.com/eliefares/status/1346549539247960064?s=20

I'm not sure there will be vaccine visas.

I think there will be considerable resistance in government to the idea. But my worry, Andy, is that our government neglects to do it, time passes, and we discover that out freedoms to visit other countries have been curtailed. Then the government, belatedly seeing the way the wind is blowing, is forced to play catch-up and runs round spending oodles trying to fix a problem that it could have easily anticipated.

Leon said:

Andy_JS said:

Leon said:

ON topic, of COURSE you will need a vaccine visa to travel, eat out, use public transport, stay in a hotel, fly, take a cab, do any jobs requiring interaction, go to the theatre, basically live.

We had ID cards in the War, we will have vaccine visas for a few years. Other countries are already on the case, not just rule-following Asians.

You will probably be allowed, at least at first, to refuse a vaccine, but then you won't get your Vaccine Visa, meaning it will be almost impossible to do most normal things. A tiny percentage will hold out.

https://twitter.com/eliefares/status/1346549539247960064?s=20

I'm not sure there will be vaccine visas.

Anyone who wants to fly abroad will need some kind of vaccine document, for sure. That's basically 80% of the country right there, the Britons who enjoy a foreign holiday.

My best guess is that it will be an app, you can show to authorities, on your smartphone. The Australians have a very efficient e-visa service, which works smoothly, just like this.

Once it is widely established - for travellers, I suspect it will be used in many other areas of life, as well. And it will be popular, because it will enable us all to get nearer to "normality" - eg flying to Majorca for a nice break.

Bring it on.

TOPPING said:

Leon said:

Andy_JS said:

Leon said:

ON topic, of COURSE you will need a vaccine visa to travel, eat out, use public transport, stay in a hotel, fly, take a cab, do any jobs requiring interaction, go to the theatre, basically live.

We had ID cards in the War, we will have vaccine visas for a few years. Other countries are already on the case, not just rule-following Asians.

You will probably be allowed, at least at first, to refuse a vaccine, but then you won't get your Vaccine Visa, meaning it will be almost impossible to do most normal things. A tiny percentage will hold out.

https://twitter.com/eliefares/status/1346549539247960064?s=20

I'm not sure there will be vaccine visas.

Anyone who wants to fly abroad will need some kind of vaccine document, for sure. That's basically 80% of the country right there, the Britons who enjoy a foreign holiday.

My best guess is that it will be an app, you can show to authorities, on your smartphone. The Australians have a very efficient e-visa service, which works smoothly, just like this.

Once it is widely established - for travellers, I suspect it will be used in many other areas of life, as well. And it will be popular, because it will enable us all to get nearer to "normality" - eg flying to Majorca for a nice break.

Bring it on.

I don't say you are wrong but according to that calculator that is/was going around that would rule out people under 40 going on their summer holidays.

Not sure that is where the various governments want to be.

TOPPING said:

TOPPING said:

Leon said:

Andy_JS said:

Leon said:

ON topic, of COURSE you will need a vaccine visa to travel, eat out, use public transport, stay in a hotel, fly, take a cab, do any jobs requiring interaction, go to the theatre, basically live.

We had ID cards in the War, we will have vaccine visas for a few years. Other countries are already on the case, not just rule-following Asians.

You will probably be allowed, at least at first, to refuse a vaccine, but then you won't get your Vaccine Visa, meaning it will be almost impossible to do most normal things. A tiny percentage will hold out.

https://twitter.com/eliefares/status/1346549539247960064?s=20

I'm not sure there will be vaccine visas.

Anyone who wants to fly abroad will need some kind of vaccine document, for sure. That's basically 80% of the country right there, the Britons who enjoy a foreign holiday.

My best guess is that it will be an app, you can show to authorities, on your smartphone. The Australians have a very efficient e-visa service, which works smoothly, just like this.

Once it is widely established - for travellers, I suspect it will be used in many other areas of life, as well. And it will be popular, because it will enable us all to get nearer to "normality" - eg flying to Majorca for a nice break.

Bring it on.

I don't say you are wrong but according to that calculator that is/was going around that would rule out people under 40 going on their summer holidays.

Not sure that is where the various governments want to be.

Interesting - at 2m doses a week a 40yr old with no u/l health problems would be vaccinated by May. At 1m/week it would be by October.

TOPPING said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

TOPPING said:

MaxPB said:

TOPPING said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

On topic, good article Stocky.

I don't think we're going to have a big problem with anti-vaxxers in this country.

The bigger challenge is that given our "open" economy we have gross immigration in the range of 400-600k a year from all over the world, and many many more business visitors and tourists.

That means as long as Covid-19 circulates in the wider world, it will occasionally flare up again here too. We need a much better strategy for visitors, tourists and immigrants - probably certificates of their own.

Vaccine passports to enter the UK, it's really not that difficult.

In order to protect the NHS, though. Because we can't have a lot of people coming here and then they overwhelm the NHS.

Because of course we don't need people to be vaccinated to stop spreading the virus.

If we have achieved 80-90% of eligible people vaccinated then it's a much smaller issue.

It is of course but the debate around vaccinations is in danger of veering into the "vaccinate to stop giving someone else the virus".

Which is not the case.

We don't know if it is the case. My understanding is that with most diseases it is the case. But of course they have not tested for that yet.

That is the point. They don't know. It might it might not ( @MaxPB has given some evidence of relative viral shedding).

But we will likely hear a lot about people being selfish by not getting vaccinated (no idea why people wouldn't want to but there you go). Which implies that without a vaccination people pass on the virus, while with one people won't.

That is simply not true....

RochdalePioneers said:

Off-topic, but my ex has just sent me a message saying "Do you know how to use the dark web, I need your help with something"!

Lol, it was more comfortable when she was just asking me for money...

Nigelb said:

FeersumEnjineeya said:

Malmesbury said:

Selebian said:

TheValiant said:

Selebian said:

Malmesbury said:

Selebian said:

Interesting post, thank you @Stocky

I would suggest that a certificate is not needed - simply let passport control at airports/ports access an electronic list of those vaccinated, which can be uploaded from primary care data. However, given I work with health data and am aware of such interesting events as people having multiple deaths or giving birth aged 93, I accept that may not be foolproof.

A sufficiently successful vaccination programme will also make certification unnecessary - the goal should be to reach herd immunity (indeed, beyond the minimum level) through mass vaccination and eradicate Covid in any meaningful sense in this country (sporadic cases may pop up, but Covid will have nowhere to go). Once that is done, airlines will no more want to see proof of a Covid vaccination than of a smallpox vaccination. There will of course be a period of time when many are vaccinated but Covid is still a threat, so in the short term some proof may be useful.

Also, I feel your pain re your friend. My father in law, whom I like very much and go to (well, used to when that was possible) the pub with on a fairly regular basis is doubtful the moon landings ever took place. He says this mostly to rile another friend who never fails to bite, but also seems to believe it himself. I, too, after once setting out why I believe him to be wrong, no longer engage on this.

I have found, in the past, that using the arguments of denialism too deny the existence of something obvious to be quite useful.

So I deny the existence of Australia.

That's a good idea. Next time it comes up I'll say that I don't believe the moon exists and see where that takes us

No. You need to deny something you can't obviously see. The moon will be seen that evening.

Deny Australia. Hell, deny the USA. Something you can't see.

Moon you say? No, I can't see it. Over there? No. Are you getting confused with a streetlight? Maybe some dust in your eye? Had few too many drinks?

Australia is *fun* to deny....

- Country built by dumping unwanted criminals accidentally ends up a liberal democracy. Yeah right.
- Country with a mammal that lays eggs, has a ducks beak and poisonous.... thumbs. Yeah right
- Country that fought and lost a war against flightless birds. Yeah right.

Not to mention the absurd accent, which is clearly the product of an over-active imagination. There are no actual Australians; they are all just actors, who are obviously sworn to secrecy at all times on pain of losing their cushy jobs.

So who invented the idea Australia, and where do they make the propaganda films ?

CarlottaVance said:

https://twitter.com/hzeffman/status/1348636564373561344?s=20

Leon said:

Andy_JS said:

Leon said:

ON topic, of COURSE you will need a vaccine visa to travel, eat out, use public transport, stay in a hotel, fly, take a cab, do any jobs requiring interaction, go to the theatre, basically live.

We had ID cards in the War, we will have vaccine visas for a few years. Other countries are already on the case, not just rule-following Asians.

You will probably be allowed, at least at first, to refuse a vaccine, but then you won't get your Vaccine Visa, meaning it will be almost impossible to do most normal things. A tiny percentage will hold out.

https://twitter.com/eliefares/status/1346549539247960064?s=20

I'm not sure there will be vaccine visas.

Anyone who wants to fly abroad will need some kind of vaccine document, for sure. That's basically 80% of the country right there, the Britons who enjoy a foreign holiday.

My best guess is that it will be an app, you can show to authorities, on your smartphone. The Australians have a very efficient e-visa service, which works smoothly, just like this.

Once it is widely established - for travellers, I suspect it will be used in many other areas of life, as well. And it will be popular, because it will enable us all to get nearer to "normality" - eg flying to Majorca for a nice break.

Bring it on.

Leon said:

Jesus

"A ban on people in England walking or exercising with anyone from outside their household is looking increasingly likely, with sources telling the Guardian it is “under active consideration’’ and “could be introduced imminently”"

That's it. That's my social life gone. They want me to be entirely alone until March


https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jan/11/ban-on-exercising-with-others-likely-but-elite-sport-fears-played-down

Leon said:

TOPPING said:

Leon said:

Andy_JS said:

Leon said:

ON topic, of COURSE you will need a vaccine visa to travel, eat out, use public transport, stay in a hotel, fly, take a cab, do any jobs requiring interaction, go to the theatre, basically live.

We had ID cards in the War, we will have vaccine visas for a few years. Other countries are already on the case, not just rule-following Asians.

You will probably be allowed, at least at first, to refuse a vaccine, but then you won't get your Vaccine Visa, meaning it will be almost impossible to do most normal things. A tiny percentage will hold out.

https://twitter.com/eliefares/status/1346549539247960064?s=20

I'm not sure there will be vaccine visas.

Anyone who wants to fly abroad will need some kind of vaccine document, for sure. That's basically 80% of the country right there, the Britons who enjoy a foreign holiday.

My best guess is that it will be an app, you can show to authorities, on your smartphone. The Australians have a very efficient e-visa service, which works smoothly, just like this.

Once it is widely established - for travellers, I suspect it will be used in many other areas of life, as well. And it will be popular, because it will enable us all to get nearer to "normality" - eg flying to Majorca for a nice break.

Bring it on.

I don't say you are wrong but according to that calculator that is/was going around that would rule out people under 40 going on their summer holidays.

Not sure that is where the various governments want to be.

I guess this summer many governments/airlines will content themselves with a recent negative PCR test, until they can introduce longer-lasting vax certificate apps. But the latter are much more reassuring, so I can't see how they won't arrive, eventually

Stocky said:

Leon said:

Jesus

"A ban on people in England walking or exercising with anyone from outside their household is looking increasingly likely, with sources telling the Guardian it is “under active consideration’’ and “could be introduced imminently”"

That's it. That's my social life gone. They want me to be entirely alone until March


https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jan/11/ban-on-exercising-with-others-likely-but-elite-sport-fears-played-down

Things are getting unreasonable. What`s the fine if you`re caught? Worth the risk to retain sanity?

CarlottaVance said:

The Dutch Tourist will be thrilled:

https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1348585818231894018?s=20

Stocky said:

Leon said:

Jesus

"A ban on people in England walking or exercising with anyone from outside their household is looking increasingly likely, with sources telling the Guardian it is “under active consideration’’ and “could be introduced imminently”"

That's it. That's my social life gone. They want me to be entirely alone until March


https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jan/11/ban-on-exercising-with-others-likely-but-elite-sport-fears-played-down

Things are getting unreasonable. What`s the fine if you`re caught? Worth the risk to retain sanity?

FeersumEnjineeya said:

Nigelb said:

FeersumEnjineeya said:

Malmesbury said:

Selebian said:

TheValiant said:

Selebian said:

Malmesbury said:

Selebian said:

Interesting post, thank you @Stocky

I would suggest that a certificate is not needed - simply let passport control at airports/ports access an electronic list of those vaccinated, which can be uploaded from primary care data. However, given I work with health data and am aware of such interesting events as people having multiple deaths or giving birth aged 93, I accept that may not be foolproof.

A sufficiently successful vaccination programme will also make certification unnecessary - the goal should be to reach herd immunity (indeed, beyond the minimum level) through mass vaccination and eradicate Covid in any meaningful sense in this country (sporadic cases may pop up, but Covid will have nowhere to go). Once that is done, airlines will no more want to see proof of a Covid vaccination than of a smallpox vaccination. There will of course be a period of time when many are vaccinated but Covid is still a threat, so in the short term some proof may be useful.

Also, I feel your pain re your friend. My father in law, whom I like very much and go to (well, used to when that was possible) the pub with on a fairly regular basis is doubtful the moon landings ever took place. He says this mostly to rile another friend who never fails to bite, but also seems to believe it himself. I, too, after once setting out why I believe him to be wrong, no longer engage on this.

I have found, in the past, that using the arguments of denialism too deny the existence of something obvious to be quite useful.

So I deny the existence of Australia.

That's a good idea. Next time it comes up I'll say that I don't believe the moon exists and see where that takes us

No. You need to deny something you can't obviously see. The moon will be seen that evening.

Deny Australia. Hell, deny the USA. Something you can't see.

Moon you say? No, I can't see it. Over there? No. Are you getting confused with a streetlight? Maybe some dust in your eye? Had few too many drinks?

Australia is *fun* to deny....

- Country built by dumping unwanted criminals accidentally ends up a liberal democracy. Yeah right.
- Country with a mammal that lays eggs, has a ducks beak and poisonous.... thumbs. Yeah right
- Country that fought and lost a war against flightless birds. Yeah right.

Not to mention the absurd accent, which is clearly the product of an over-active imagination. There are no actual Australians; they are all just actors, who are obviously sworn to secrecy at all times on pain of losing their cushy jobs.

So who invented the idea Australia, and where do they make the propaganda films ?

The lizards, of course, in order to be able to deliver regular doses of mind-control soma in the form of daytime soap operas. "Ramsay Street" is, I understand, one of the more secretive parts of Area 51.

state_go_away said:

kle4 said:

Leon said:

Jesus

"A ban on people in England walking or exercising with anyone from outside their household is looking increasingly likely, with sources telling the Guardian it is “under active consideration’’ and “could be introduced imminently”"

That's it. That's my social life gone. They want me to be entirely alone until March


https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jan/11/ban-on-exercising-with-others-likely-but-elite-sport-fears-played-down

I'm not sure it would actually achieve much more, but they want to be seen to be doing something as things get worse before they get better.

I reluctantly can concede the argument occasionally that it is lead by "science" , I willl need to throw up if arguments are based on being lead by "PR"

TOPPING said:

RochdalePioneers said:

CarlottaVance said:

The Dutch Tourist will be thrilled:

https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1348585818231894018?s=20

Don't forget - Philip has assured us that there will be no disruption at the border as absolutely everyone will submit all their paperwork electronically in advance. Definitely no mega queues whilst bemused customs officials search for contraband, not at all.

Philip will be delighted at the new sovereignty displayed by individual EU countries' customs officials. Previously they had no say in allowing British-originated ham and egg sandwiches into their country.

Now they truly have thrown off the yoke of oppression.

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

RochdalePioneers said:

CarlottaVance said:

The Dutch Tourist will be thrilled:

https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1348585818231894018?s=20

Don't forget - Philip has assured us that there will be no disruption at the border as absolutely everyone will submit all their paperwork electronically in advance. Definitely no mega queues whilst bemused customs officials search for contraband, not at all.

Philip will be delighted at the new sovereignty displayed by individual EU countries' customs officials. Previously they had no say in allowing British-originated ham and egg sandwiches into their country.

Now they truly have thrown off the yoke of oppression.

shouldnt that be yolk ?

contrarian said:

Leon said:

Jesus

"A ban on people in England walking or exercising with anyone from outside their household is looking increasingly likely, with sources telling the Guardian it is “under active consideration’’ and “could be introduced imminently”"

That's it. That's my social life gone. They want me to be entirely alone until March


https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jan/11/ban-on-exercising-with-others-likely-but-elite-sport-fears-played-down

After today's MSP defection from the tories to the Reform Party, you can sense tory appetite for more draconian measures diminishing. Imagine if defections started happening in England too!! Even at grassroots level, with councillors.

Its almost like they suddenly woke up and found themselves in a democracy.

One day, they'll wish they weren't.

Alanbrooke said:

Ireland currently has the worlds highest infection rate

https://www.independent.ie/news/ireland-records-highest-covid-19-infection-rate-in-the-world-over-past-seven-days-39954862.html

contrarian said:

Stocky said:

Leon said:

Jesus

"A ban on people in England walking or exercising with anyone from outside their household is looking increasingly likely, with sources telling the Guardian it is “under active consideration’’ and “could be introduced imminently”"

That's it. That's my social life gone. They want me to be entirely alone until March


https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jan/11/ban-on-exercising-with-others-likely-but-elite-sport-fears-played-down

Things are getting unreasonable. What`s the fine if you`re caught? Worth the risk to retain sanity?

Some tory MPs already getting v.v. nervous. Reform Party rolling out great barrington. First defection. Rishi sounding utterlt miserable on the economy.

Northern_Al said:

contrarian said:

Leon said:

Jesus

"A ban on people in England walking or exercising with anyone from outside their household is looking increasingly likely, with sources telling the Guardian it is “under active consideration’’ and “could be introduced imminently”"

That's it. That's my social life gone. They want me to be entirely alone until March


https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jan/11/ban-on-exercising-with-others-likely-but-elite-sport-fears-played-down

After today's MSP defection from the tories to the Reform Party, you can sense tory appetite for more draconian measures diminishing. Imagine if defections started happening in England too!! Even at grassroots level, with councillors.

Its almost like they suddenly woke up and found themselves in a democracy.

One day, they'll wish they weren't.

Your desperation for Farage and Tice's Reform Party to take power and deliver us from tyranny shines through many of your posts.

Hopefully, your dreams will never be fulfilled.

gealbhan said:

gealbhan said:

“There was no epic fantasy when when LOTR was written.”

There was the Edda etc. Let’s take a quick peak at it.
The wise woman’s prophecy

Who’s in it? Well...

There was Motsognir | the mightiest made
Of all the dwarfs, | and Durin next;
Many a likeness | of men they made,
The dwarfs in the earth, | as Durin said.
11. Nyi and Nithi, | Northri and Suthri,
Austri and Vestri, | Althjof, Dvalin,
Nar and Nain, | Niping, Dain,
Bifur, Bofur, | Bombur, Nori,
An and Onar, | Ai, Mjothvitnir.

Vigg and Gandalf) | Vindalf, Thrain,
Thekk and Thorin, | Thror, Vit and Lit,
Nyr and Nyrath,-- | now have I told--
Regin and Rathsvith-- | the list aright.
13. Fili, Kili, | Fundin, Nali,
Heptifili, | Hannar, Sviur,
Frar, Hornbori, | Fræg and Loni,
Aurvang, Jari, | Eikinskjaldi.
14. The race of the dwarfs | in Dvalin's throng
Down to Lofar | the list must I tell;
The rocks they left, | and through wet lands
They sought a home | in the fields of sand.
15. There were Draupnir | and Dolgthrasir,
Hor, Haugspori, | Hlevang, Gloin,
Dori, Ori, | Duf, Andvari,
Skirfir, Virfir, | Skafith, Ai.
16. Alf and Yngvi, | Eikinskjaldi,
Fjalar and Frosti, | Fith and Ginnar;
So for all time | shall the tale be known,
The list of all | the forbears of Lofar.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe03.htm

contrarian said:

Alanbrooke said:

Ireland currently has the worlds highest infection rate

https://www.independent.ie/news/ireland-records-highest-covid-19-infection-rate-in-the-world-over-past-seven-days-39954862.html

I don;t see how that can be when they have been among the lockdowniest of them all...??

Leon said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

Stocky said:

Leon said:

Jesus

"A ban on people in England walking or exercising with anyone from outside their household is looking increasingly likely, with sources telling the Guardian it is “under active consideration’’ and “could be introduced imminently”"

That's it. That's my social life gone. They want me to be entirely alone until March


https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jan/11/ban-on-exercising-with-others-likely-but-elite-sport-fears-played-down

Things are getting unreasonable. What`s the fine if you`re caught? Worth the risk to retain sanity?

It seems rather desperate. Do we have evidence that people obeying the rules outdoors is contributing significantly? Seems more likely to me that outbreaks are caused by people who break the rules (then give it to the rest of their family).

All I do is walk alongside a friend at 2m distance. Staring ahead. I don't go near anyone. It keeps me sane. And the chances of my infecting someone, or catching something, are about nil

Now they take it away?