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Cyclefree’s 2020 Awards – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,207

    Series 2, Mandalorian - last 3 episodes coming up......

    Is it worth getting Disney+? Serious question. I foresee many weeks indoors coming up
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786

    gealbhan said:

    gealbhan said:

    RobD said:

    slade said:

    Just popped up on my Facebook page: 'Britain has won nothing but has lost a continent,' - Ursula van der Leyen. Anyone know the source?

    No hits on google, so more twitter bollocks.
    It sounds intuitively BS.

    Sort of thing a Remainer would invent, not diplomatic enough for UvDL (even if she thought it she wouldn't say it).
    It’s true though we no longer have frictionless trade with the continent we once had.
    It isn't true. We no longer have frictionless trade but it is not true at all to say we have "won nothing".
    LOL. What are you saying we won? We went backwards in frictionless trade, what did we win in return to account for making our economy, government and households poorer?
    Freedom to control our own laws.
    Freedom to control our own economy.
    Freedom to negotiate better trade deals with fewer red lines.
    Freedom to make our own economy, government and households richer.
    Oh and some fish.
    Um, and billions of pounds? People seem to forget we did actually have to pay to be in the ruddy thing.

    Carnyx said:

    In my opinion, the future is looking brighter than it has for a long time for NI within the Union. As a straight up battle between Protestant unionists and Catholic republicans, it was facing gradual demographic extinction. That could all now be overridden, made insignificant, by a new economic role, as a bridge between the UK and EU, enjoying some of the benefits of both. I can see it being useful not just to the UK, but to the ROI - it could lead to a permanent settlement that everyone is happy with.

    I would really like Boris to look at attracting a charter city for anyone who wishes to migrate from Hong Kong to NI, whether that means new enterprize zones etc.
    My instant reaction was to wonder if I was reading a tweet from James VI and I's court 400-odd years ago.
    I'll take that as a compliment! :smiley:

    I would see it more as an allusion to the reign of George I - where Protestant vs. Catholic rivalry (in England) gave way to commercial success. As Daniel Defoe said 'There is no Protestant and Catholic in a good bargain'.
    In those terms, the ‘good bargain’ was UK-wide EU membership. We’ve just thrown it away.
    I think not. UK-wide EU membership prohibited enterprise zones, free ports and the like, and NI struggled against the lower corporate tax in the Republic. Now NI can be special for the right reasons, if it can grasp the opportunities its special status permits.
    There are free ports in the EU. That was never a barrier. If you're imagining something depending on government subsidies then I'm afraid you can forget taking advantage of any special status.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,042
    Carnyx said:

    dodrade said:

    In my opinion, the future is looking brighter than it has for a long time for NI within the Union. As a straight up battle between Protestant unionists and Catholic republicans, it was facing gradual demographic extinction. That could all now be overridden, made insignificant, by a new economic role, as a bridge between the UK and EU, enjoying some of the benefits of both. I can see it being useful not just to the UK, but to the ROI - it could lead to a permanent settlement that everyone is happy with.

    I would really like Boris to look at attracting a charter city for anyone who wishes to migrate from Hong Kong to NI, whether that means new enterprise zones etc.
    It's already been considered in the past.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/revealed-british-plan-to-move-hong-kong-to-northern-ireland-1.2272256
    I wondered the same - essentially the NI position is now hugely attractive to business and potential investment, and not one that'll be easy to give up..
    Just wait till the Scottish profgessional and business classes cotton on.

    Some of the fishermen realised some time ago ... but they can move their boats. An Edinburgh LLP or WS can't move the New Town or Fountainbridge office so easily.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/54798942
    I think Scotland (particularly Glasgow) can only benefit from Northern Ireland becoming very successful. We need more centres of prosperity outside London. Aberdeen, with free port, enterprise zone etc. could also be very exciting and perhaps finally fulfil its potential to be a great commercial centre. It really is quite exciting being in the UK at the moment, if you look for it.
  • Hateful as the DUP's brand of politics is, they have a point. They trusted the Prime Minister who repeatedly told everyone that he would not put a border down the Irish Sea and thus preserve the integrity of the UK.

    He lied.

    Sucks to be them.

    Should have read the smallprint. Actually what had always been said, which the DUP agreed to in 2016, was that there would be no variant between GB and NI except for where Stormont approved of it - which is entirely reasonable devolution.

    Boris exercised that to the max. He agreed the variant then handed the keys to it to Stormont. Just because the DUP can't find a majority to end that isn't his fault, it is democracy.
    He lied. Openly. Brazenly. Clearly.

    Takes a special person to insist that he didn't.
  • Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    gealbhan said:

    gealbhan said:

    RobD said:

    slade said:

    Just popped up on my Facebook page: 'Britain has won nothing but has lost a continent,' - Ursula van der Leyen. Anyone know the source?

    No hits on google, so more twitter bollocks.
    It sounds intuitively BS.

    Sort of thing a Remainer would invent, not diplomatic enough for UvDL (even if she thought it she wouldn't say it).
    It’s true though we no longer have frictionless trade with the continent we once had.
    It isn't true. We no longer have frictionless trade but it is not true at all to say we have "won nothing".
    LOL. What are you saying we won? We went backwards in frictionless trade, what did we win in return to account for making our economy, government and households poorer?
    Freedom to control our own laws.
    Freedom to control our own economy.
    Freedom to negotiate better trade deals with fewer red lines.
    Freedom to make our own economy, government and households richer.
    Oh and some fish.
    You haven't read the agreement, have you?

    I'm currently working my way through it. It's dismal how few of Britain's own publicly stated asks it managed to get, despite holding all the cards. Apparently.
    Hence why it was bounced through.

    https://twitter.com/redhistorian/status/1344230499976404992?s=19

    I think the reason that so many Tories are OK with this is that parliamentary careers are now rather short. Most of the Cabinet have been in parliament less than 10 years so have no experience of opposition, and no intention of staying in Parliament were they to become the opposition. As a result they do not fear such powers in the hands of the opposition.

    We have moved from a parliamentary democracy, to one where we get a say in the executive once every few years.
    Am I right in remembering that the Government were eventually forced to accept the Lords' amendment scrapping their power grab from the devolved assemblies or was that overturned again?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,731
    Cyclefree said:

    You haven't read the agreement, have you?

    I'm currently working my way through it. It's dismal how few of Britain's own publicly stated asks it managed to get, despite holding all the cards. Apparently.

    Where is our £350m ?
  • Leon said:

    Series 2, Mandalorian - last 3 episodes coming up......

    Is it worth getting Disney+? Serious question. I foresee many weeks indoors coming up
    If you have little ones then 100% absolutely definitely. It is fantastic, ours absolutely love it.

    For grown ups its probably more of a mixed bag, if you like Marvel and Star Wars there's quite a bit on it but for children its an easy yes.

    Integrates very well with Sky Q and Fire Sticks etc too if you have that. Our 4 year old even can load it by herself and use it.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,123
    edited December 2020

    Carnyx said:

    dodrade said:

    In my opinion, the future is looking brighter than it has for a long time for NI within the Union. As a straight up battle between Protestant unionists and Catholic republicans, it was facing gradual demographic extinction. That could all now be overridden, made insignificant, by a new economic role, as a bridge between the UK and EU, enjoying some of the benefits of both. I can see it being useful not just to the UK, but to the ROI - it could lead to a permanent settlement that everyone is happy with.

    I would really like Boris to look at attracting a charter city for anyone who wishes to migrate from Hong Kong to NI, whether that means new enterprise zones etc.
    It's already been considered in the past.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/revealed-british-plan-to-move-hong-kong-to-northern-ireland-1.2272256
    I wondered the same - essentially the NI position is now hugely attractive to business and potential investment, and not one that'll be easy to give up..
    Just wait till the Scottish profgessional and business classes cotton on.

    Some of the fishermen realised some time ago ... but they can move their boats. An Edinburgh LLP or WS can't move the New Town or Fountainbridge office so easily.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/54798942
    I think Scotland (particularly Glasgow) can only benefit from Northern Ireland becoming very successful. We need more centres of prosperity outside London. Aberdeen, with free port, enterprise zone etc. could also be very exciting and perhaps finally fulfil its potential to be a great commercial centre. It really is quite exciting being in the UK at the moment, if you look for it.
    Yet why can't the Scots as a whole also be in the EU? That is the question.

    PS No need to answer, sorry - it was rhetorical and in all seriousness we will see how it plays out. Off for the night anyway. Gooodnight, all.
  • Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    gealbhan said:

    gealbhan said:

    RobD said:

    slade said:

    Just popped up on my Facebook page: 'Britain has won nothing but has lost a continent,' - Ursula van der Leyen. Anyone know the source?

    No hits on google, so more twitter bollocks.
    It sounds intuitively BS.

    Sort of thing a Remainer would invent, not diplomatic enough for UvDL (even if she thought it she wouldn't say it).
    It’s true though we no longer have frictionless trade with the continent we once had.
    It isn't true. We no longer have frictionless trade but it is not true at all to say we have "won nothing".
    LOL. What are you saying we won? We went backwards in frictionless trade, what did we win in return to account for making our economy, government and households poorer?
    Freedom to control our own laws.
    Freedom to control our own economy.
    Freedom to negotiate better trade deals with fewer red lines.
    Freedom to make our own economy, government and households richer.
    Oh and some fish.
    You haven't read the agreement, have you?

    I'm currently working my way through it. It's dismal how few of Britain's own publicly stated asks it managed to get, despite holding all the cards. Apparently.
    Hence why it was bounced through.

    https://twitter.com/redhistorian/status/1344230499976404992?s=19

    I think the reason that so many Tories are OK with this is that parliamentary careers are now rather short. Most of the Cabinet have been in parliament less than 10 years so have no experience of opposition, and no intention of staying in Parliament were they to become the opposition. As a result they do not fear such powers in the hands of the opposition.

    We have moved from a parliamentary democracy, to one where we get a say in the executive once every few years.
    Some of us feel it has been that way for decades. The May/Johnson period of 2017 to 2019 was an exception rather than the norm.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,042

    gealbhan said:

    gealbhan said:

    RobD said:

    slade said:

    Just popped up on my Facebook page: 'Britain has won nothing but has lost a continent,' - Ursula van der Leyen. Anyone know the source?

    No hits on google, so more twitter bollocks.
    It sounds intuitively BS.

    Sort of thing a Remainer would invent, not diplomatic enough for UvDL (even if she thought it she wouldn't say it).
    It’s true though we no longer have frictionless trade with the continent we once had.
    It isn't true. We no longer have frictionless trade but it is not true at all to say we have "won nothing".
    LOL. What are you saying we won? We went backwards in frictionless trade, what did we win in return to account for making our economy, government and households poorer?
    Freedom to control our own laws.
    Freedom to control our own economy.
    Freedom to negotiate better trade deals with fewer red lines.
    Freedom to make our own economy, government and households richer.
    Oh and some fish.
    Um, and billions of pounds? People seem to forget we did actually have to pay to be in the ruddy thing.

    Carnyx said:

    In my opinion, the future is looking brighter than it has for a long time for NI within the Union. As a straight up battle between Protestant unionists and Catholic republicans, it was facing gradual demographic extinction. That could all now be overridden, made insignificant, by a new economic role, as a bridge between the UK and EU, enjoying some of the benefits of both. I can see it being useful not just to the UK, but to the ROI - it could lead to a permanent settlement that everyone is happy with.

    I would really like Boris to look at attracting a charter city for anyone who wishes to migrate from Hong Kong to NI, whether that means new enterprize zones etc.
    My instant reaction was to wonder if I was reading a tweet from James VI and I's court 400-odd years ago.
    I'll take that as a compliment! :smiley:

    I would see it more as an allusion to the reign of George I - where Protestant vs. Catholic rivalry (in England) gave way to commercial success. As Daniel Defoe said 'There is no Protestant and Catholic in a good bargain'.
    In those terms, the ‘good bargain’ was UK-wide EU membership. We’ve just thrown it away.
    I think not. UK-wide EU membership prohibited enterprise zones, free ports and the like, and NI struggled against the lower corporate tax in the Republic. Now NI can be special for the right reasons, if it can grasp the opportunities its special status permits.
    There are free ports in the EU. That was never a barrier. If you're imagining something depending on government subsidies then I'm afraid you can forget taking advantage of any special status.
    I am not sure if you are aware (your response hints at yes?) but national governments are not permitted to set up enterprise zones and free ports wherever they would like within the EU, hence their scarcity, and the fact that they are usually located in the less developed areas.
  • Hateful as the DUP's brand of politics is, they have a point. They trusted the Prime Minister who repeatedly told everyone that he would not put a border down the Irish Sea and thus preserve the integrity of the UK.

    He lied.

    Sucks to be them.

    Should have read the smallprint. Actually what had always been said, which the DUP agreed to in 2016, was that there would be no variant between GB and NI except for where Stormont approved of it - which is entirely reasonable devolution.

    Boris exercised that to the max. He agreed the variant then handed the keys to it to Stormont. Just because the DUP can't find a majority to end that isn't his fault, it is democracy.
    He lied. Openly. Brazenly. Clearly.

    Takes a special person to insist that he didn't.
    He devolved to Stormont. That was always an option.

    Sucks to be them. I couldn't care less.
  • gealbhan said:

    gealbhan said:

    gealbhan said:

    RobD said:

    slade said:

    Just popped up on my Facebook page: 'Britain has won nothing but has lost a continent,' - Ursula van der Leyen. Anyone know the source?

    No hits on google, so more twitter bollocks.
    It sounds intuitively BS.

    Sort of thing a Remainer would invent, not diplomatic enough for UvDL (even if she thought it she wouldn't say it).
    It’s true though we no longer have frictionless trade with the continent we once had.
    It isn't true. We no longer have frictionless trade but it is not true at all to say we have "won nothing".
    LOL. What are you saying we won? We went backwards in frictionless trade, what did we win in return to account for making our economy, government and households poorer?
    Freedom to control our own laws.
    Freedom to control our own economy.
    Freedom to negotiate better trade deals with fewer red lines.
    Freedom to make our own economy, government and households richer.
    Oh and some fish.
    like all brexiteers, you haven’t a clue what freedom is.

    Freedom is in the pocket. When you are poor you are closer to being a slave, when you are wealthier you come closer to be being free. And Brexit will make the country poorer, year on year. As every good economist knows.

    like all brexiteers, you haven’t a clue what sovereignty is.

    It’s a currency. You put it to work for you and your citizens. Just sitting on it, it’s useless. You spend it In all your trade deals. In your all your security deals, like NATO. In your dealings with the UN. We know how every pro European party leader from Thatcher to Cameron used the currency of sovereignty for the good of their citizens, and how this current government have ripped up the deal previous conservative governments built and nurtured for the current and future citizens.

    like all brexiteers you don’t understand what Democracy is.

    The whole point of the democracy isn’t so that 52% ever trumps 48%, actual democracy is about tolerating minority views in the big decisions for a big society going forwards, not just as fairest, but to minimise ongoing conflict. So a Brexit not just for the 52% (many of which actually did not vote for hard brexit), but also the views of the 48% too, and the many millions too baffled by the campaigning to appreciate the difference. Direct democracy relies so much on the quality of the debate. Did the 2016 campaign inform the voters or confuse or mislead them? When people voted were they sure what they would be getting? Were all the risks with both options fully appreciated?
    representative democracy is far stronger than direct democracy because it allows for more efficient scrutiny by a sufficiently small number of people with time and skills, who have maturity of judgment and unbiased in opinion to go into forensic depth and come to a more enlightened conclusion on behalf of all people and points of view. key difference between direct and representative forms of democracy is representatives not simply to communicate the wishes of the electorate but to use their own judgment in the exercise of their powers, even if their views are not reflective of those of a majority of voters, but the voters can still remove them. If you don’t agree with me on that then you don’t actually agree with parliamentary democracy.
    Democracy is really about what do you do when you disagree. And the time and skills to scrutinise and debate to a strong conclusion.

    Democracy, sovereignty, freedom. Today the U.K. has gone backwards in everyone.
    Utter bollocks from start to finish.
  • gealbhan said:

    gealbhan said:

    RobD said:

    slade said:

    Just popped up on my Facebook page: 'Britain has won nothing but has lost a continent,' - Ursula van der Leyen. Anyone know the source?

    No hits on google, so more twitter bollocks.
    It sounds intuitively BS.

    Sort of thing a Remainer would invent, not diplomatic enough for UvDL (even if she thought it she wouldn't say it).
    It’s true though we no longer have frictionless trade with the continent we once had.
    It isn't true. We no longer have frictionless trade but it is not true at all to say we have "won nothing".
    LOL. What are you saying we won? We went backwards in frictionless trade, what did we win in return to account for making our economy, government and households poorer?
    Freedom to control our own laws.
    Freedom to control our own economy.
    Freedom to negotiate better trade deals with fewer red lines.
    Freedom to make our own economy, government and households richer.
    Oh and some fish.
    Um, and billions of pounds? People seem to forget we did actually have to pay to be in the ruddy thing.

    Carnyx said:

    In my opinion, the future is looking brighter than it has for a long time for NI within the Union. As a straight up battle between Protestant unionists and Catholic republicans, it was facing gradual demographic extinction. That could all now be overridden, made insignificant, by a new economic role, as a bridge between the UK and EU, enjoying some of the benefits of both. I can see it being useful not just to the UK, but to the ROI - it could lead to a permanent settlement that everyone is happy with.

    I would really like Boris to look at attracting a charter city for anyone who wishes to migrate from Hong Kong to NI, whether that means new enterprize zones etc.
    My instant reaction was to wonder if I was reading a tweet from James VI and I's court 400-odd years ago.
    I'll take that as a compliment! :smiley:

    I would see it more as an allusion to the reign of George I - where Protestant vs. Catholic rivalry (in England) gave way to commercial success. As Daniel Defoe said 'There is no Protestant and Catholic in a good bargain'.
    In those terms, the ‘good bargain’ was UK-wide EU membership. We’ve just thrown it away.
    I think not. UK-wide EU membership prohibited enterprise zones, free ports and the like, and NI struggled against the lower corporate tax in the Republic. Now NI can be special for the right reasons, if it can grasp the opportunities its special status permits.
    EU membership didn't prohibit free ports. Although they aren't really a good idea anyway (they erode the tax base and distort economic activity).
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Cyclefree said:

    gealbhan said:

    gealbhan said:

    RobD said:

    slade said:

    Just popped up on my Facebook page: 'Britain has won nothing but has lost a continent,' - Ursula van der Leyen. Anyone know the source?

    No hits on google, so more twitter bollocks.
    It sounds intuitively BS.

    Sort of thing a Remainer would invent, not diplomatic enough for UvDL (even if she thought it she wouldn't say it).
    It’s true though we no longer have frictionless trade with the continent we once had.
    It isn't true. We no longer have frictionless trade but it is not true at all to say we have "won nothing".
    LOL. What are you saying we won? We went backwards in frictionless trade, what did we win in return to account for making our economy, government and households poorer?
    Freedom to control our own laws.
    Freedom to control our own economy.
    Freedom to negotiate better trade deals with fewer red lines.
    Freedom to make our own economy, government and households richer.
    Oh and some fish.
    You haven't read the agreement, have you?

    I'm currently working my way through it. It's dismal how few of Britain's own publicly stated asks it managed to get, despite holding all the cards. Apparently.
    I'm not going to read it.

    If there is something really depressing in it then I have every confidence you or someone like you would post it here - and Scott_P would post 101 Tweets saying how awful it is.

    If the whole FBPE army can't find anything awful for Scott to Tweet here - and from the other side of the fence the ERG, Farage and everyone like that can't find anything to complain about either - then I'm going to assume any alleged awfulness is as real as Russell's Teapot.

    From what I've read it sounds like the UK has got all of its asks, which is good because we held the cards and have played them to the max from what I can see.
    I am reading it because I would like to know for myself what it says. If I think there is a header or two in it I will write them.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,207
    slade said:

    Just popped up on my Facebook page: 'Britain has won nothing but has lost a continent,' - Ursula van der Leyen. Anyone know the source?

    Fuck That Shit. We have finally overthrown the overlords of the European Court of Justice, a court stuffed with EU-approved judges from such democratic beacons as Romania, Bulgaria and Slovakia, judges who had a say over the common law rights of the English people - the same English people who were earnestly pursuing universal suffrage when Bulgarian society was still pursuing human vampirism.

    Brexit is a rare victory for freedom, a victory for ordinary men and women, armed only with a vote. It is a victory over the smug, preening superiority of a self-appointed Davosite Elite, who can now go and bugger themselves with oversized frozen mackerel.

    We are free. Poorer, but free.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,733
    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    gealbhan said:

    gealbhan said:

    RobD said:

    slade said:

    Just popped up on my Facebook page: 'Britain has won nothing but has lost a continent,' - Ursula van der Leyen. Anyone know the source?

    No hits on google, so more twitter bollocks.
    It sounds intuitively BS.

    Sort of thing a Remainer would invent, not diplomatic enough for UvDL (even if she thought it she wouldn't say it).
    It’s true though we no longer have frictionless trade with the continent we once had.
    It isn't true. We no longer have frictionless trade but it is not true at all to say we have "won nothing".
    LOL. What are you saying we won? We went backwards in frictionless trade, what did we win in return to account for making our economy, government and households poorer?
    Freedom to control our own laws.
    Freedom to control our own economy.
    Freedom to negotiate better trade deals with fewer red lines.
    Freedom to make our own economy, government and households richer.
    Oh and some fish.
    You haven't read the agreement, have you?

    I'm currently working my way through it. It's dismal how few of Britain's own publicly stated asks it managed to get, despite holding all the cards. Apparently.
    Hence why it was bounced through.

    https://twitter.com/redhistorian/status/1344230499976404992?s=19

    I think the reason that so many Tories are OK with this is that parliamentary careers are now rather short. Most of the Cabinet have been in parliament less than 10 years so have no experience of opposition, and no intention of staying in Parliament were they to become the opposition. As a result they do not fear such powers in the hands of the opposition.

    We have moved from a parliamentary democracy, to one where we get a say in the executive once every few years.
    I was rather surprised, on checking earlier today for unrelated reasons, to find that there are just 31 MPs left who were elected before 1997. Even allowing for high turnover in 1997, 2010 and 2019, that seems a very small number by historical standards - just 5% of the total.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Kingdom_MPs_by_seniority_(2019–present)
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,010
    edited December 2020

    Hateful as the DUP's brand of politics is, they have a point. They trusted the Prime Minister who repeatedly told everyone that he would not put a border down the Irish Sea and thus preserve the integrity of the UK.

    He lied.

    Sucks to be them.

    Should have read the smallprint. Actually what had always been said, which the DUP agreed to in 2016, was that there would be no variant between GB and NI except for where Stormont approved of it - which is entirely reasonable devolution.

    Boris exercised that to the max. He agreed the variant then handed the keys to it to Stormont. Just because the DUP can't find a majority to end that isn't his fault, it is democracy.
    He lied. Openly. Brazenly. Clearly.

    Takes a special person to insist that he didn't.
    He devolved to Stormont. That was always an option.

    Sucks to be them. I couldn't care less.
    Stormont drove a border down the Irish Sea? I understand now. He stood there at the podium at their conference, and in the Commons, and in that business meeting and said No Border. Its just the Bad People in the DUP that forced him to do it.

    Laughable. Even by your standards.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    gealbhan said:

    gealbhan said:

    RobD said:

    slade said:

    Just popped up on my Facebook page: 'Britain has won nothing but has lost a continent,' - Ursula van der Leyen. Anyone know the source?

    No hits on google, so more twitter bollocks.
    It sounds intuitively BS.

    Sort of thing a Remainer would invent, not diplomatic enough for UvDL (even if she thought it she wouldn't say it).
    It’s true though we no longer have frictionless trade with the continent we once had.
    It isn't true. We no longer have frictionless trade but it is not true at all to say we have "won nothing".
    LOL. What are you saying we won? We went backwards in frictionless trade, what did we win in return to account for making our economy, government and households poorer?
    Freedom to control our own laws.
    Freedom to control our own economy.
    Freedom to negotiate better trade deals with fewer red lines.
    Freedom to make our own economy, government and households richer.
    Oh and some fish.
    You haven't read the agreement, have you?

    I'm currently working my way through it. It's dismal how few of Britain's own publicly stated asks it managed to get, despite holding all the cards. Apparently.
    I'm not going to read it.

    If there is something really depressing in it then I have every confidence you or someone like you would post it here - and Scott_P would post 101 Tweets saying how awful it is.

    If the whole FBPE army can't find anything awful for Scott to Tweet here - and from the other side of the fence the ERG, Farage and everyone like that can't find anything to complain about either - then I'm going to assume any alleged awfulness is as real as Russell's Teapot.

    From what I've read it sounds like the UK has got all of its asks, which is good because we held the cards and have played them to the max from what I can see.
    I am reading it because I would like to know for myself what it says. If I think there is a header or two in it I will write them.
    I await with interest.

    If you find anything 'negative' I am curious what it is. Be aware of course that different people have different preferences - one person's negative is someone else's positive.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,207

    gealbhan said:

    gealbhan said:

    gealbhan said:

    RobD said:

    slade said:

    Just popped up on my Facebook page: 'Britain has won nothing but has lost a continent,' - Ursula van der Leyen. Anyone know the source?

    No hits on google, so more twitter bollocks.
    It sounds intuitively BS.

    Sort of thing a Remainer would invent, not diplomatic enough for UvDL (even if she thought it she wouldn't say it).
    It’s true though we no longer have frictionless trade with the continent we once had.
    It isn't true. We no longer have frictionless trade but it is not true at all to say we have "won nothing".
    LOL. What are you saying we won? We went backwards in frictionless trade, what did we win in return to account for making our economy, government and households poorer?
    Freedom to control our own laws.
    Freedom to control our own economy.
    Freedom to negotiate better trade deals with fewer red lines.
    Freedom to make our own economy, government and households richer.
    Oh and some fish.
    like all brexiteers, you haven’t a clue what freedom is.

    Freedom is in the pocket. When you are poor you are closer to being a slave, when you are wealthier you come closer to be being free. And Brexit will make the country poorer, year on year. As every good economist knows.

    like all brexiteers, you haven’t a clue what sovereignty is.

    It’s a currency. You put it to work for you and your citizens. Just sitting on it, it’s useless. You spend it In all your trade deals. In your all your security deals, like NATO. In your dealings with the UN. We know how every pro European party leader from Thatcher to Cameron used the currency of sovereignty for the good of their citizens, and how this current government have ripped up the deal previous conservative governments built and nurtured for the current and future citizens.

    like all brexiteers you don’t understand what Democracy is.

    The whole point of the democracy isn’t so that 52% ever trumps 48%, actual democracy is about tolerating minority views in the big decisions for a big society going forwards, not just as fairest, but to minimise ongoing conflict. So a Brexit not just for the 52% (many of which actually did not vote for hard brexit), but also the views of the 48% too, and the many millions too baffled by the campaigning to appreciate the difference. Direct democracy relies so much on the quality of the debate. Did the 2016 campaign inform the voters or confuse or mislead them? When people voted were they sure what they would be getting? Were all the risks with both options fully appreciated?
    representative democracy is far stronger than direct democracy because it allows for more efficient scrutiny by a sufficiently small number of people with time and skills, who have maturity of judgment and unbiased in opinion to go into forensic depth and come to a more enlightened conclusion on behalf of all people and points of view. key difference between direct and representative forms of democracy is representatives not simply to communicate the wishes of the electorate but to use their own judgment in the exercise of their powers, even if their views are not reflective of those of a majority of voters, but the voters can still remove them. If you don’t agree with me on that then you don’t actually agree with parliamentary democracy.
    Democracy is really about what do you do when you disagree. And the time and skills to scrutinise and debate to a strong conclusion.

    Democracy, sovereignty, freedom. Today the U.K. has gone backwards in everyone.
    Utter bollocks from start to finish.
    Yes. Total nonsense. And too much of it, as well. Bleurgh
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,052
    Leon said:

    Series 2, Mandalorian - last 3 episodes coming up......

    Is it worth getting Disney+? Serious question. I foresee many weeks indoors coming up
    Foxjr2 has a login for it so I browsed through. Soul sounds good, and there is plenty of back catalogue for the youngsters. Every episode of the Simpson appeals, but not much else.

    I watched the first Mandalorian and thought it rather dull and formulaic, with cardboard characterisation and little of interest. Not my cup of tea, I won't bother with the rest.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,731
    Leon said:

    Brexit is a rare victory for freedom, a victory for ordinary men and women, armed only with a vote. It is a victory over the smug, preening superiority of a self-appointed Davosite Elite, who can now go and bugger themselves with oversized frozen mackerel.

    We are free. Poorer, but free.

    Vacuous bullshit, but I'll bite.

    What are you free to do today you were not free to do yesterday?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    Leon said:

    BTW Cyclefree an excellent header. You are always a good writer, sometimes very good, but often you lapse into prolixity.

    This is pointed, witty, clever, and just the right length. Appreciated

    Thank you.

    In terms of word length it is in fact a bit longer than other recent ones. But style can also make something seem longer or shorter - perhaps crisper is the better word.

    But thanks. I enjoyed writing it.

    Writing has been one of my few highlights this year.
  • gealbhan said:

    gealbhan said:

    gealbhan said:

    RobD said:

    slade said:

    Just popped up on my Facebook page: 'Britain has won nothing but has lost a continent,' - Ursula van der Leyen. Anyone know the source?

    No hits on google, so more twitter bollocks.
    It sounds intuitively BS.

    Sort of thing a Remainer would invent, not diplomatic enough for UvDL (even if she thought it she wouldn't say it).
    It’s true though we no longer have frictionless trade with the continent we once had.
    It isn't true. We no longer have frictionless trade but it is not true at all to say we have "won nothing".
    LOL. What are you saying we won? We went backwards in frictionless trade, what did we win in return to account for making our economy, government and households poorer?
    Freedom to control our own laws.
    Freedom to control our own economy.
    Freedom to negotiate better trade deals with fewer red lines.
    Freedom to make our own economy, government and households richer.
    Oh and some fish.
    like all brexiteers, you haven’t a clue what freedom is.

    Freedom is in the pocket. When you are poor you are closer to being a slave, when you are wealthier you come closer to be being free. And Brexit will make the country poorer, year on year. As every good economist knows.

    like all brexiteers, you haven’t a clue what sovereignty is.

    It’s a currency. You put it to work for you and your citizens. Just sitting on it, it’s useless. You spend it In all your trade deals. In your all your security deals, like NATO. In your dealings with the UN. We know how every pro European party leader from Thatcher to Cameron used the currency of sovereignty for the good of their citizens, and how this current government have ripped up the deal previous conservative governments built and nurtured for the current and future citizens.

    like all brexiteers you don’t understand what Democracy is.

    The whole point of the democracy isn’t so that 52% ever trumps 48%, actual democracy is about tolerating minority views in the big decisions for a big society going forwards, not just as fairest, but to minimise ongoing conflict. So a Brexit not just for the 52% (many of which actually did not vote for hard brexit), but also the views of the 48% too, and the many millions too baffled by the campaigning to appreciate the difference. Direct democracy relies so much on the quality of the debate. Did the 2016 campaign inform the voters or confuse or mislead them? When people voted were they sure what they would be getting? Were all the risks with both options fully appreciated?
    representative democracy is far stronger than direct democracy because it allows for more efficient scrutiny by a sufficiently small number of people with time and skills, who have maturity of judgment and unbiased in opinion to go into forensic depth and come to a more enlightened conclusion on behalf of all people and points of view. key difference between direct and representative forms of democracy is representatives not simply to communicate the wishes of the electorate but to use their own judgment in the exercise of their powers, even if their views are not reflective of those of a majority of voters, but the voters can still remove them. If you don’t agree with me on that then you don’t actually agree with parliamentary democracy.
    Democracy is really about what do you do when you disagree. And the time and skills to scrutinise and debate to a strong conclusion.

    Democracy, sovereignty, freedom. Today the U.K. has gone backwards in everyone.
    Utter bollocks from start to finish.
    Happily Brexit is now settled so we will never have to have such debates. And with our relationship with the EU now absolutely settled for life we can move on.

    I mean, imagine if we'd signed a deal where we have the right to diverge from the EU but only by volunteering to impose tariffs and quotas. That would be a special kind of stupid.
  • Hateful as the DUP's brand of politics is, they have a point. They trusted the Prime Minister who repeatedly told everyone that he would not put a border down the Irish Sea and thus preserve the integrity of the UK.

    He lied.

    Sucks to be them.

    Should have read the smallprint. Actually what had always been said, which the DUP agreed to in 2016, was that there would be no variant between GB and NI except for where Stormont approved of it - which is entirely reasonable devolution.

    Boris exercised that to the max. He agreed the variant then handed the keys to it to Stormont. Just because the DUP can't find a majority to end that isn't his fault, it is democracy.
    He lied. Openly. Brazenly. Clearly.

    Takes a special person to insist that he didn't.
    He devolved to Stormont. That was always an option.

    Sucks to be them. I couldn't care less.
    Stormont drove a border down the Irish Sea? I understand now. He stood there at the podium at their conference, and in the Commons, and in that business meeting and said No Border. Its just the Bad People in the DUP that forced him to do it.

    Laughable. Even by your standards.
    The DUP said No to everything. No to EU membership, no to no deal, no to May's deal, no to Boris's deal. No, no, no, no, no. That is the only word they know it seems.

    Boris negotiated a deal and if Stormont are unhappy they can vote to end it - if Stormont are happy they can continue with it - Stormont's choice.

    I have no qualms with that. Let Stormont decide NI's future. Just as Holyrood should be relevant for Scotland's. Why would you object to Stormont deciding whether NI's arrangements continue or not?

    If the DUP and NI voters are unhappy they can terminate the arrangements. Why don't they do that if they're not happy? Or is it the case that actually the majority of MLAs actually like what Boris has negotiated and want them to continue?
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,979
    Leon said:

    gealbhan said:

    gealbhan said:

    gealbhan said:

    RobD said:

    slade said:

    Just popped up on my Facebook page: 'Britain has won nothing but has lost a continent,' - Ursula van der Leyen. Anyone know the source?

    No hits on google, so more twitter bollocks.
    It sounds intuitively BS.

    Sort of thing a Remainer would invent, not diplomatic enough for UvDL (even if she thought it she wouldn't say it).
    It’s true though we no longer have frictionless trade with the continent we once had.
    It isn't true. We no longer have frictionless trade but it is not true at all to say we have "won nothing".
    LOL. What are you saying we won? We went backwards in frictionless trade, what did we win in return to account for making our economy, government and households poorer?
    Freedom to control our own laws.
    Freedom to control our own economy.
    Freedom to negotiate better trade deals with fewer red lines.
    Freedom to make our own economy, government and households richer.
    Oh and some fish.
    like all brexiteers, you haven’t a clue what freedom is.

    Freedom is in the pocket. When you are poor you are closer to being a slave, when you are wealthier you come closer to be being free. And Brexit will make the country poorer, year on year. As every good economist knows.

    like all brexiteers, you haven’t a clue what sovereignty is.

    It’s a currency. You put it to work for you and your citizens. Just sitting on it, it’s useless. You spend it In all your trade deals. In your all your security deals, like NATO. In your dealings with the UN. We know how every pro European party leader from Thatcher to Cameron used the currency of sovereignty for the good of their citizens, and how this current government have ripped up the deal previous conservative governments built and nurtured for the current and future citizens.

    like all brexiteers you don’t understand what Democracy is.

    The whole point of the democracy isn’t so that 52% ever trumps 48%, actual democracy is about tolerating minority views in the big decisions for a big society going forwards, not just as fairest, but to minimise ongoing conflict. So a Brexit not just for the 52% (many of which actually did not vote for hard brexit), but also the views of the 48% too, and the many millions too baffled by the campaigning to appreciate the difference. Direct democracy relies so much on the quality of the debate. Did the 2016 campaign inform the voters or confuse or mislead them? When people voted were they sure what they would be getting? Were all the risks with both options fully appreciated?
    representative democracy is far stronger than direct democracy because it allows for more efficient scrutiny by a sufficiently small number of people with time and skills, who have maturity of judgment and unbiased in opinion to go into forensic depth and come to a more enlightened conclusion on behalf of all people and points of view. key difference between direct and representative forms of democracy is representatives not simply to communicate the wishes of the electorate but to use their own judgment in the exercise of their powers, even if their views are not reflective of those of a majority of voters, but the voters can still remove them. If you don’t agree with me on that then you don’t actually agree with parliamentary democracy.
    Democracy is really about what do you do when you disagree. And the time and skills to scrutinise and debate to a strong conclusion.

    Democracy, sovereignty, freedom. Today the U.K. has gone backwards in everyone.
    Utter bollocks from start to finish.
    Yes. Total nonsense. And too much of it, as well. Bleurgh
    Wow. These are really convincing counter arguments from the two of you, propping each other up. Well done.
  • Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    gealbhan said:

    gealbhan said:

    RobD said:

    slade said:

    Just popped up on my Facebook page: 'Britain has won nothing but has lost a continent,' - Ursula van der Leyen. Anyone know the source?

    No hits on google, so more twitter bollocks.
    It sounds intuitively BS.

    Sort of thing a Remainer would invent, not diplomatic enough for UvDL (even if she thought it she wouldn't say it).
    It’s true though we no longer have frictionless trade with the continent we once had.
    It isn't true. We no longer have frictionless trade but it is not true at all to say we have "won nothing".
    LOL. What are you saying we won? We went backwards in frictionless trade, what did we win in return to account for making our economy, government and households poorer?
    Freedom to control our own laws.
    Freedom to control our own economy.
    Freedom to negotiate better trade deals with fewer red lines.
    Freedom to make our own economy, government and households richer.
    Oh and some fish.
    You haven't read the agreement, have you?

    I'm currently working my way through it. It's dismal how few of Britain's own publicly stated asks it managed to get, despite holding all the cards. Apparently.
    Hence why it was bounced through.

    https://twitter.com/redhistorian/status/1344230499976404992?s=19

    I think the reason that so many Tories are OK with this is that parliamentary careers are now rather short. Most of the Cabinet have been in parliament less than 10 years so have no experience of opposition, and no intention of staying in Parliament were they to become the opposition. As a result they do not fear such powers in the hands of the opposition.

    We have moved from a parliamentary democracy, to one where we get a say in the executive once every few years.
    It's the curious thing about the powers that the UK may have gained by this process. Leave aside whether those powers are operable (I suspect most of the buttons the UK now has access to will never be worth pressing, because of the consequences).

    To my non-expert eye, it looks like the powers gained in this process have accrued to the UK government- more flex in changing laws and economics. But I'm also conscious of powers I have lost, or had diluted. After Friday, it will be (at the very least) harder to move around, buy and sell stuff beyond the UK.

    I can see the extra vim for the government, and yes- I get to vote for or against them a dozen or so times more in my time on this planet.

    But I've got less control of my life next week than this, haven't I?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,731

    But I've got less control of my life next week than this, haven't I?

    Shhh. Don't disturb the fantasy
  • gealbhan said:

    gealbhan said:

    RobD said:

    slade said:

    Just popped up on my Facebook page: 'Britain has won nothing but has lost a continent,' - Ursula van der Leyen. Anyone know the source?

    No hits on google, so more twitter bollocks.
    It sounds intuitively BS.

    Sort of thing a Remainer would invent, not diplomatic enough for UvDL (even if she thought it she wouldn't say it).
    It’s true though we no longer have frictionless trade with the continent we once had.
    It isn't true. We no longer have frictionless trade but it is not true at all to say we have "won nothing".
    LOL. What are you saying we won? We went backwards in frictionless trade, what did we win in return to account for making our economy, government and households poorer?
    Freedom to control our own laws.
    Freedom to control our own economy.
    Freedom to negotiate better trade deals with fewer red lines.
    Freedom to make our own economy, government and households richer.
    Oh and some fish.
    Um, and billions of pounds? People seem to forget we did actually have to pay to be in the ruddy thing.

    Carnyx said:

    In my opinion, the future is looking brighter than it has for a long time for NI within the Union. As a straight up battle between Protestant unionists and Catholic republicans, it was facing gradual demographic extinction. That could all now be overridden, made insignificant, by a new economic role, as a bridge between the UK and EU, enjoying some of the benefits of both. I can see it being useful not just to the UK, but to the ROI - it could lead to a permanent settlement that everyone is happy with.

    I would really like Boris to look at attracting a charter city for anyone who wishes to migrate from Hong Kong to NI, whether that means new enterprize zones etc.
    My instant reaction was to wonder if I was reading a tweet from James VI and I's court 400-odd years ago.
    I'll take that as a compliment! :smiley:

    I would see it more as an allusion to the reign of George I - where Protestant vs. Catholic rivalry (in England) gave way to commercial success. As Daniel Defoe said 'There is no Protestant and Catholic in a good bargain'.
    In those terms, the ‘good bargain’ was UK-wide EU membership. We’ve just thrown it away.
    I think not. UK-wide EU membership prohibited enterprise zones, free ports and the like, and NI struggled against the lower corporate tax in the Republic. Now NI can be special for the right reasons, if it can grasp the opportunities its special status permits.
    There are free ports in the EU. That was never a barrier. If you're imagining something depending on government subsidies then I'm afraid you can forget taking advantage of any special status.
    I am not sure if you are aware (your response hints at yes?) but national governments are not permitted to set up enterprise zones and free ports wherever they would like within the EU, hence their scarcity, and the fact that they are usually located in the less developed areas.
    Hamburg and Bremerhaven are less developed areas? Who knew?
  • Scott_xP said:
    Take a moment to imagine their hero, the Blessed Margaret Thatcher, uttering this bollocks.
  • Barnesian said:

    Leon said:

    gealbhan said:

    gealbhan said:

    gealbhan said:

    RobD said:

    slade said:

    Just popped up on my Facebook page: 'Britain has won nothing but has lost a continent,' - Ursula van der Leyen. Anyone know the source?

    No hits on google, so more twitter bollocks.
    It sounds intuitively BS.

    Sort of thing a Remainer would invent, not diplomatic enough for UvDL (even if she thought it she wouldn't say it).
    It’s true though we no longer have frictionless trade with the continent we once had.
    It isn't true. We no longer have frictionless trade but it is not true at all to say we have "won nothing".
    LOL. What are you saying we won? We went backwards in frictionless trade, what did we win in return to account for making our economy, government and households poorer?
    Freedom to control our own laws.
    Freedom to control our own economy.
    Freedom to negotiate better trade deals with fewer red lines.
    Freedom to make our own economy, government and households richer.
    Oh and some fish.
    like all brexiteers, you haven’t a clue what freedom is.

    Freedom is in the pocket. When you are poor you are closer to being a slave, when you are wealthier you come closer to be being free. And Brexit will make the country poorer, year on year. As every good economist knows.

    like all brexiteers, you haven’t a clue what sovereignty is.

    It’s a currency. You put it to work for you and your citizens. Just sitting on it, it’s useless. You spend it In all your trade deals. In your all your security deals, like NATO. In your dealings with the UN. We know how every pro European party leader from Thatcher to Cameron used the currency of sovereignty for the good of their citizens, and how this current government have ripped up the deal previous conservative governments built and nurtured for the current and future citizens.

    like all brexiteers you don’t understand what Democracy is.

    The whole point of the democracy isn’t so that 52% ever trumps 48%, actual democracy is about tolerating minority views in the big decisions for a big society going forwards, not just as fairest, but to minimise ongoing conflict. So a Brexit not just for the 52% (many of which actually did not vote for hard brexit), but also the views of the 48% too, and the many millions too baffled by the campaigning to appreciate the difference. Direct democracy relies so much on the quality of the debate. Did the 2016 campaign inform the voters or confuse or mislead them? When people voted were they sure what they would be getting? Were all the risks with both options fully appreciated?
    representative democracy is far stronger than direct democracy because it allows for more efficient scrutiny by a sufficiently small number of people with time and skills, who have maturity of judgment and unbiased in opinion to go into forensic depth and come to a more enlightened conclusion on behalf of all people and points of view. key difference between direct and representative forms of democracy is representatives not simply to communicate the wishes of the electorate but to use their own judgment in the exercise of their powers, even if their views are not reflective of those of a majority of voters, but the voters can still remove them. If you don’t agree with me on that then you don’t actually agree with parliamentary democracy.
    Democracy is really about what do you do when you disagree. And the time and skills to scrutinise and debate to a strong conclusion.

    Democracy, sovereignty, freedom. Today the U.K. has gone backwards in everyone.
    Utter bollocks from start to finish.
    Yes. Total nonsense. And too much of it, as well. Bleurgh
    Wow. These are really convincing counter arguments from the two of you, propping each other up. Well done.
    Its total whingy bullshit. Where should we start?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,207

    dodrade said:

    In my opinion, the future is looking brighter than it has for a long time for NI within the Union. As a straight up battle between Protestant unionists and Catholic republicans, it was facing gradual demographic extinction. That could all now be overridden, made insignificant, by a new economic role, as a bridge between the UK and EU, enjoying some of the benefits of both. I can see it being useful not just to the UK, but to the ROI - it could lead to a permanent settlement that everyone is happy with.

    I would really like Boris to look at attracting a charter city for anyone who wishes to migrate from Hong Kong to NI, whether that means new enterprise zones etc.
    It's already been considered in the past.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/revealed-british-plan-to-move-hong-kong-to-northern-ireland-1.2272256
    I wondered the same - essentially the NI position is now hugely attractive to business and potential investment, and not one that'll be easy to give up..
    I pointed this out about 9 months ago. With NI being in the EU free trade zone AND the UK free trade zone, AND their citizens entitled to EU and UK passports, with the benefits of both, they are in a uniquely privileged position: the first class citizens of Europe. This actually makes Irish Reunion much less likely. Why on earth would Ulstermen and women give up this brilliantly advantageous situation so as to leave the UK and give up their main UK market?? And also potentially provoke renewed violence?

    Ireland will not reunite. Investment is going to pour into NI as it is, in many ways, the optimal place to be to trade with the UK and the EU at the same time.

    Good for them,

    But it is a measure of the Unionists' dimness that they don't seem to have grasped this, yet.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited December 2020
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,731
    Barnesian said:

    Wow. These are really convincing counter arguments from the two of you, propping each other up. Well done.

    I'll say it again.

    This is as good as it ever gets for Brexit. The unsullied fantasy. Let them revel in it while they still can.

    It's all downhill from here...
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,731

    Take a moment to imagine their hero, the Blessed Margaret Thatcher, uttering this bollocks.

    They have abandoned her greatest triumph. History will not look kindly upon them...
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Leon said:

    Series 2, Mandalorian - last 3 episodes coming up......

    Is it worth getting Disney+? Serious question. I foresee many weeks indoors coming up
    If you have little ones then 100% absolutely definitely. It is fantastic, ours absolutely love it.

    For grown ups its probably more of a mixed bag, if you like Marvel and Star Wars there's quite a bit on it but for children its an easy yes.

    Integrates very well with Sky Q and Fire Sticks etc too if you have that. Our 4 year old even can load it by herself and use it.
    That last paragraph read in the context of the time you spend posting on here, is one of the most chilling things I have ever read.
  • If the DUP and NI voters are unhappy they can terminate the arrangements. Why don't they do that if they're not happy? Or is it the case that actually the majority of MLAs actually like what Boris has negotiated and want them to continue?

    "The arrangements" being the border down the Irish Sea that the sacked liar lied about.

    To be fair I don't think he knew what he was signing by the increasingly shrill way he denied he had done any such thing - right up until Govey published the details about the paperwork the business people Johnson said wouldn't have to fill in will have to fill in.

    He isn't just a liar he's really dumb. Sat there this afternoon harrumphing away about how no barriers to trade had been put up. In his head none have. Same with the fish. he thinks a drop in catch is an increase.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    edited December 2020
    More trouble. He has no end of mad and dangerous fans.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,207
    Barnesian said:

    Leon said:

    gealbhan said:

    gealbhan said:

    gealbhan said:

    RobD said:

    slade said:

    Just popped up on my Facebook page: 'Britain has won nothing but has lost a continent,' - Ursula van der Leyen. Anyone know the source?

    No hits on google, so more twitter bollocks.
    It sounds intuitively BS.

    Sort of thing a Remainer would invent, not diplomatic enough for UvDL (even if she thought it she wouldn't say it).
    It’s true though we no longer have frictionless trade with the continent we once had.
    It isn't true. We no longer have frictionless trade but it is not true at all to say we have "won nothing".
    LOL. What are you saying we won? We went backwards in frictionless trade, what did we win in return to account for making our economy, government and households poorer?
    Freedom to control our own laws.
    Freedom to control our own economy.
    Freedom to negotiate better trade deals with fewer red lines.
    Freedom to make our own economy, government and households richer.
    Oh and some fish.
    like all brexiteers, you haven’t a clue what freedom is.

    Freedom is in the pocket. When you are poor you are closer to being a slave, when you are wealthier you come closer to be being free. And Brexit will make the country poorer, year on year. As every good economist knows.

    like all brexiteers, you haven’t a clue what sovereignty is.

    It’s a currency. You put it to work for you and your citizens. Just sitting on it, it’s useless. You spend it In all your trade deals. In your all your security deals, like NATO. In your dealings with the UN. We know how every pro European party leader from Thatcher to Cameron used the currency of sovereignty for the good of their citizens, and how this current government have ripped up the deal previous conservative governments built and nurtured for the current and future citizens.

    like all brexiteers you don’t understand what Democracy is.

    The whole point of the democracy isn’t so that 52% ever trumps 48%, actual democracy is about tolerating minority views in the big decisions for a big society going forwards, not just as fairest, but to minimise ongoing conflict. So a Brexit not just for the 52% (many of which actually did not vote for hard brexit), but also the views of the 48% too, and the many millions too baffled by the campaigning to appreciate the difference. Direct democracy relies so much on the quality of the debate. Did the 2016 campaign inform the voters or confuse or mislead them? When people voted were they sure what they would be getting? Were all the risks with both options fully appreciated?
    representative democracy is far stronger than direct democracy because it allows for more efficient scrutiny by a sufficiently small number of people with time and skills, who have maturity of judgment and unbiased in opinion to go into forensic depth and come to a more enlightened conclusion on behalf of all people and points of view. key difference between direct and representative forms of democracy is representatives not simply to communicate the wishes of the electorate but to use their own judgment in the exercise of their powers, even if their views are not reflective of those of a majority of voters, but the voters can still remove them. If you don’t agree with me on that then you don’t actually agree with parliamentary democracy.
    Democracy is really about what do you do when you disagree. And the time and skills to scrutinise and debate to a strong conclusion.

    Democracy, sovereignty, freedom. Today the U.K. has gone backwards in everyone.
    Utter bollocks from start to finish.
    Yes. Total nonsense. And too much of it, as well. Bleurgh
    Wow. These are really convincing counter arguments from the two of you, propping each other up. Well done.
    The lack of proper paragraphing is, by itself, all-too-indicative of an inferior and deficient mind. Why bother reading someone who cannot master the rules of basic English prose? It's like pointlessly wading into ever-deeper mud.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,207
    Scott_xP said:

    Barnesian said:

    Wow. These are really convincing counter arguments from the two of you, propping each other up. Well done.

    I'll say it again.

    This is as good as it ever gets for Brexit. The unsullied fantasy. Let them revel in it while they still can.

    It's all downhill from here...
    We're out. You lost. Time to retire to fly-fishing.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786
    Scott_xP said:

    Barnesian said:

    Wow. These are really convincing counter arguments from the two of you, propping each other up. Well done.

    I'll say it again.

    This is as good as it ever gets for Brexit. The unsullied fantasy. Let them revel in it while they still can.

    It's all downhill from here...
    News broadcasts from East Germany used to be full of stories about how awful it was in the West: poverty, drug addiction, immigration and social collapse. I expect it's the kind of thing we can look forward to in order to portray the EU as a failed project.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,052
    Forwarded to me, I have trimmed a bit for size.

    Dear Wave 3 and Wave 4 sites

    We are now in a position to confirm the arrangements for vaccine supply next week as part of the ongoing COVID-19 vaccination programme so please read this email carefully and in full.

    Thank you for all your ongoing efforts at this critical time.

    This notification should be read alongside the letter from xxx setting out changes to second dose vaccine scheduling and an expansion of first dose delivery. This note also reflects MHRA’s approval today of a new Astra Zeneca vaccine.
    The MHRA announced today that it would be reasonable to extend the gap between the first and second doses of the vaccine, originally set at three weeks for the Pfizer BioNTech, in order to offer vaccine to more people in the priority JCVI cohorts. This means that we will now delay all second doses until 12 weeks after the first dose.

    PCN LVS sites will now need to cancel appointments for second doses booked from next week (Monday 4th January).

    Snip

    Therefore, for week commencing 4th January:

    All wave 3 and 4 sites will be sent a 975 dose box of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccines on Wednesday 6th January. This should be used for new patients’ first doses.
    All wave 3 and 4 sites will receive a 75 dose pack of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccines to be delivered to your site on the same day as the 975 dose box. This is primarily intended to facilitate care home delivery.
    All wave 3 and 4 sites will receive 400 doses of Astra Zeneca vaccine to be delivered to your site on Friday 9th January. A revised SOP and other materials for this vaccine will be published as soon as possible. This vaccine will allow more flexible vaccination across the care homes sector and for those who are truly housebound.

    Snipped again




  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,731
    Leon said:

    We're out. You lost.

    So you have no answer to my question.

    What a fucking surprise.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,629

    But I'm also conscious of powers I have lost, or had diluted. After Friday, it will be (at the very least) harder to move around, buy and sell stuff beyond the UK.

    Trimmed to the part I wanted to address

    Yes you had freedom to sell the stuff to europe but only around 5 to 10% of uk people were involved in that

    Yes you had the freedom to move to live and work in the eu but an even more miniscule amount of the people in this country ever wanted to take advantage of it.

    On the other hand 100% of people had to pay for those freedoms for the few

    a) via taxes
    b) via not having the ability to vote for policies that weren't allowed under the eu...nationalisation, state subsidy etc
    c) Having the eu used to get around national parliaments when it was used as a way of bringing in laws a national government wanted but knew it would never get past the national parliament so they would get it brought in at eu level.
    d) Paid for in people not able to get their family in because we couldn't restrict eu nationals coming here so had to tighten up on non eu migration rules

    Your vaunted freedoms were for the few and when you asked the rest of us to pay and we finally got to answer we said "On your bike sunshine". Tough luck



  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,052
    So it looks as if, at least in my region, each site will get 1450 vaccines, 70% of which are Pfizer, and the intention is to use the AZN on smaller carehomes and the truly housebound. AZN delivery a week on Friday.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,207
    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    BTW Cyclefree an excellent header. You are always a good writer, sometimes very good, but often you lapse into prolixity.

    This is pointed, witty, clever, and just the right length. Appreciated

    Thank you.

    In terms of word length it is in fact a bit longer than other recent ones. But style can also make something seem longer or shorter - perhaps crisper is the better word.

    But thanks. I enjoyed writing it.

    Writing has been one of my few highlights this year.
    You're often an excellent writer. Of all the header-writers on PB I would say you and Mr Meeks (much as I often disagree with you both) are the ones who at first glance, could make a go of it professionally. But, yes, crispness really is a virtue.

    Always remember the words of Blaise Pascal: "I would have written a shorter letter, but I did not have the time."

    Happy New Year! x
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    edited December 2020
    Foxy said:

    So it looks as if, at least in my region, each site will get 1450 vaccines, 70% of which are Pfizer, and the intention is to use the AZN on smaller carehomes and the truly housebound. AZN delivery a week on Friday.

    And I suppose for your type of site? I assume the AZN vaccine can be administered more easily in a wider array of sites.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,731
    Pagan2 said:

    On the other hand 100% of people had to pay for those freedoms for the few

    a) via taxes
    b) via not having the ability to vote for policies that weren't allowed under the eu...nationalisation, state subsidy etc
    c) Having the eu used to get around national parliaments when it was used as a way of bringing in laws a national government wanted but knew it would never get past the national parliament so they would get it brought in at eu level.
    d) Paid for in people not able to get their family in because we couldn't restrict eu nationals coming here so had to tighten up on non eu migration rules

    Your vaunted freedoms were for the few and when you asked the rest of us to pay and we finally got to answer we said "On your bike sunshine". Tough luck

    But now we all pay more, and have less freedom...
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623
    Foxy said:

    Forwarded to me, I have trimmed a bit for size.

    Dear Wave 3 and Wave 4 sites

    We are now in a position to confirm the arrangements for vaccine supply next week as part of the ongoing COVID-19 vaccination programme so please read this email carefully and in full.

    Thank you for all your ongoing efforts at this critical time.

    This notification should be read alongside the letter from xxx setting out changes to second dose vaccine scheduling and an expansion of first dose delivery. This note also reflects MHRA’s approval today of a new Astra Zeneca vaccine.
    The MHRA announced today that it would be reasonable to extend the gap between the first and second doses of the vaccine, originally set at three weeks for the Pfizer BioNTech, in order to offer vaccine to more people in the priority JCVI cohorts. This means that we will now delay all second doses until 12 weeks after the first dose.

    PCN LVS sites will now need to cancel appointments for second doses booked from next week (Monday 4th January).

    Snip

    Therefore, for week commencing 4th January:

    All wave 3 and 4 sites will be sent a 975 dose box of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccines on Wednesday 6th January. This should be used for new patients’ first doses.
    All wave 3 and 4 sites will receive a 75 dose pack of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccines to be delivered to your site on the same day as the 975 dose box. This is primarily intended to facilitate care home delivery.
    All wave 3 and 4 sites will receive 400 doses of Astra Zeneca vaccine to be delivered to your site on Friday 9th January. A revised SOP and other materials for this vaccine will be published as soon as possible. This vaccine will allow more flexible vaccination across the care homes sector and for those who are truly housebound.

    Snipped again




    Interesting, thanks for sharing.

    One thing I've never quite understood is why the Pfizer vaccine doesn't come in obvious round number boxes of doses. Why 975, rather than a neat 1,000?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Foxy said:

    Forwarded to me, I have trimmed a bit for size.

    Dear Wave 3 and Wave 4 sites

    We are now in a position to confirm the arrangements for vaccine supply next week as part of the ongoing COVID-19 vaccination programme so please read this email carefully and in full.

    Thank you for all your ongoing efforts at this critical time.

    This notification should be read alongside the letter from xxx setting out changes to second dose vaccine scheduling and an expansion of first dose delivery. This note also reflects MHRA’s approval today of a new Astra Zeneca vaccine.
    The MHRA announced today that it would be reasonable to extend the gap between the first and second doses of the vaccine, originally set at three weeks for the Pfizer BioNTech, in order to offer vaccine to more people in the priority JCVI cohorts. This means that we will now delay all second doses until 12 weeks after the first dose.

    PCN LVS sites will now need to cancel appointments for second doses booked from next week (Monday 4th January).

    Snip

    Therefore, for week commencing 4th January:

    All wave 3 and 4 sites will be sent a 975 dose box of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccines on Wednesday 6th January. This should be used for new patients’ first doses.
    All wave 3 and 4 sites will receive a 75 dose pack of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccines to be delivered to your site on the same day as the 975 dose box. This is primarily intended to facilitate care home delivery.
    All wave 3 and 4 sites will receive 400 doses of Astra Zeneca vaccine to be delivered to your site on Friday 9th January. A revised SOP and other materials for this vaccine will be published as soon as possible. This vaccine will allow more flexible vaccination across the care homes sector and for those who are truly housebound.

    Snipped again




    Interesting, thanks for sharing.

    One thing I've never quite understood is why the Pfizer vaccine doesn't come in obvious round number boxes of doses. Why 975, rather than a neat 1,000?
    Just the size of the tray:

    https://twitter.com/FelipeOvalle/status/1342129891073024001
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,629
    Scott_xP said:

    Pagan2 said:

    On the other hand 100% of people had to pay for those freedoms for the few

    a) via taxes
    b) via not having the ability to vote for policies that weren't allowed under the eu...nationalisation, state subsidy etc
    c) Having the eu used to get around national parliaments when it was used as a way of bringing in laws a national government wanted but knew it would never get past the national parliament so they would get it brought in at eu level.
    d) Paid for in people not able to get their family in because we couldn't restrict eu nationals coming here so had to tighten up on non eu migration rules

    Your vaunted freedoms were for the few and when you asked the rest of us to pay and we finally got to answer we said "On your bike sunshine". Tough luck

    But now we all pay more, and have less freedom...
    Talking bollocks as usual B,C,D are now fixed. Taxes may go up but more likely to be to do with covid. I expect some food to get cheaper I expect some to get more expensive but on balance be about the same. Your assertion we are paying more is without foundation if you mean currently, and pure speculation if you mean the future and frankly I have less faith in your prognostications than I do in mystic Meg
  • Scott_xP said:

    Barnesian said:

    Wow. These are really convincing counter arguments from the two of you, propping each other up. Well done.

    I'll say it again.

    This is as good as it ever gets for Brexit. The unsullied fantasy. Let them revel in it while they still can.

    It's all downhill from here...
    News broadcasts from East Germany used to be full of stories about how awful it was in the West: poverty, drug addiction, immigration and social collapse. I expect it's the kind of thing we can look forward to in order to portray the EU as a failed project.
    ‘The slaves of EUroland continue to suffer the tyranny of barely scorched toast and the obscenity of straight bananas; they’re so brainwashed they don’t even realise the horror of it all.’
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,052
    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    So it looks as if, at least in my region, each site will get 1450 vaccines, 70% of which are Pfizer, and the intention is to use the AZN on smaller carehomes and the truly housebound. AZN delivery a week on Friday.

    And I suppose for your type of site? I assume the AZN vaccine can be administered more easily in a wider array of sites.
    Wave 3 and 4 sites are in General Practice.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    So it looks as if, at least in my region, each site will get 1450 vaccines, 70% of which are Pfizer, and the intention is to use the AZN on smaller carehomes and the truly housebound. AZN delivery a week on Friday.

    And I suppose for your type of site? I assume the AZN vaccine can be administered more easily in a wider array of sites.
    Wave 3 and 4 sites are in General Practice.
    No squaddies giving jabs there? :p
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,731
    Pagan2 said:

    B,C,D are now fixed.

    That is not a good thing...

  • Pagan2 said:

    But I'm also conscious of powers I have lost, or had diluted. After Friday, it will be (at the very least) harder to move around, buy and sell stuff beyond the UK.

    Trimmed to the part I wanted to address

    Yes you had freedom to sell the stuff to europe but only around 5 to 10% of uk people were involved in that

    Yes you had the freedom to move to live and work in the eu but an even more miniscule amount of the people in this country ever wanted to take advantage of it.

    On the other hand 100% of people had to pay for those freedoms for the few

    a) via taxes
    b) via not having the ability to vote for policies that weren't allowed under the eu...nationalisation, state subsidy etc
    c) Having the eu used to get around national parliaments when it was used as a way of bringing in laws a national government wanted but knew it would never get past the national parliament so they would get it brought in at eu level.
    d) Paid for in people not able to get their family in because we couldn't restrict eu nationals coming here so had to tighten up on non eu migration rules

    Your vaunted freedoms were for the few and when you asked the rest of us to pay and we finally got to answer we said "On your bike sunshine". Tough luck



    Some of that's fair enough, and the rest of it does come in the category of Leave won, so here we are.

    But the UK does seem to be moving in the direction of Westminster taking control. Replacing a set of rules applied imperfectly across a wide area, which a whimsical despot who might be replaced in four years time.

    Who, exactly has got the extra control now? If it's the government, is there any sign that they are capable of using that control effectively and morally?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,629
    Scott_xP said:

    Pagan2 said:

    B,C,D are now fixed.

    That is not a good thing...

    Maybe not for you but I think they are but then you never valued them while I never valued the things you do. For example you might cite being able to retire and live in Spain and hold that up as a freedom lost to someone who likely won't ever be able to afford to retire let alone to Spain
  • RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Forwarded to me, I have trimmed a bit for size.

    Dear Wave 3 and Wave 4 sites

    We are now in a position to confirm the arrangements for vaccine supply next week as part of the ongoing COVID-19 vaccination programme so please read this email carefully and in full.

    Thank you for all your ongoing efforts at this critical time.

    This notification should be read alongside the letter from xxx setting out changes to second dose vaccine scheduling and an expansion of first dose delivery. This note also reflects MHRA’s approval today of a new Astra Zeneca vaccine.
    The MHRA announced today that it would be reasonable to extend the gap between the first and second doses of the vaccine, originally set at three weeks for the Pfizer BioNTech, in order to offer vaccine to more people in the priority JCVI cohorts. This means that we will now delay all second doses until 12 weeks after the first dose.

    PCN LVS sites will now need to cancel appointments for second doses booked from next week (Monday 4th January).

    Snip

    Therefore, for week commencing 4th January:

    All wave 3 and 4 sites will be sent a 975 dose box of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccines on Wednesday 6th January. This should be used for new patients’ first doses.
    All wave 3 and 4 sites will receive a 75 dose pack of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccines to be delivered to your site on the same day as the 975 dose box. This is primarily intended to facilitate care home delivery.
    All wave 3 and 4 sites will receive 400 doses of Astra Zeneca vaccine to be delivered to your site on Friday 9th January. A revised SOP and other materials for this vaccine will be published as soon as possible. This vaccine will allow more flexible vaccination across the care homes sector and for those who are truly housebound.

    Snipped again




    Interesting, thanks for sharing.

    One thing I've never quite understood is why the Pfizer vaccine doesn't come in obvious round number boxes of doses. Why 975, rather than a neat 1,000?
    Just the size of the tray:

    https://twitter.com/FelipeOvalle/status/1342129891073024001
    5 doses per vial so would be 195 vials in the tray.

    I'm guessing (13x15)x5 is the shape of the box

    980 could have also made sense: (14x14)x5

    An even 1000 be a relatively hard number to come to with a squarish box.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,835
    Leon said:

    Series 2, Mandalorian - last 3 episodes coming up......

    Is it worth getting Disney+? Serious question. I foresee many weeks indoors coming up
    Depends.
    If you like Marvel, National Geographic, Pixar or the Disney classics yes.
    If not no.
    A month's worth then cancel for me.
    Unfortunately I am married so we still have it.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Forwarded to me, I have trimmed a bit for size.

    Dear Wave 3 and Wave 4 sites

    We are now in a position to confirm the arrangements for vaccine supply next week as part of the ongoing COVID-19 vaccination programme so please read this email carefully and in full.

    Thank you for all your ongoing efforts at this critical time.

    This notification should be read alongside the letter from xxx setting out changes to second dose vaccine scheduling and an expansion of first dose delivery. This note also reflects MHRA’s approval today of a new Astra Zeneca vaccine.
    The MHRA announced today that it would be reasonable to extend the gap between the first and second doses of the vaccine, originally set at three weeks for the Pfizer BioNTech, in order to offer vaccine to more people in the priority JCVI cohorts. This means that we will now delay all second doses until 12 weeks after the first dose.

    PCN LVS sites will now need to cancel appointments for second doses booked from next week (Monday 4th January).

    Snip

    Therefore, for week commencing 4th January:

    All wave 3 and 4 sites will be sent a 975 dose box of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccines on Wednesday 6th January. This should be used for new patients’ first doses.
    All wave 3 and 4 sites will receive a 75 dose pack of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccines to be delivered to your site on the same day as the 975 dose box. This is primarily intended to facilitate care home delivery.
    All wave 3 and 4 sites will receive 400 doses of Astra Zeneca vaccine to be delivered to your site on Friday 9th January. A revised SOP and other materials for this vaccine will be published as soon as possible. This vaccine will allow more flexible vaccination across the care homes sector and for those who are truly housebound.

    Snipped again




    Interesting, thanks for sharing.

    One thing I've never quite understood is why the Pfizer vaccine doesn't come in obvious round number boxes of doses. Why 975, rather than a neat 1,000?
    Just the size of the tray:

    https://twitter.com/FelipeOvalle/status/1342129891073024001
    5 doses per vial so would be 195 vials in the tray.

    I'm guessing (13x15)x5 is the shape of the box

    980 could have also made sense: (14x14)x5

    An even 1000 be a relatively hard number to come to with a squarish box.
    1 vial = 5 doses. A single tray gives the 975 doses.
  • Pagan2 said:

    But I'm also conscious of powers I have lost, or had diluted. After Friday, it will be (at the very least) harder to move around, buy and sell stuff beyond the UK.

    Trimmed to the part I wanted to address

    Yes you had freedom to sell the stuff to europe but only around 5 to 10% of uk people were involved in that

    Yes you had the freedom to move to live and work in the eu but an even more miniscule amount of the people in this country ever wanted to take advantage of it.

    On the other hand 100% of people had to pay for those freedoms for the few

    a) via taxes
    b) via not having the ability to vote for policies that weren't allowed under the eu...nationalisation, state subsidy etc
    c) Having the eu used to get around national parliaments when it was used as a way of bringing in laws a national government wanted but knew it would never get past the national parliament so they would get it brought in at eu level.
    d) Paid for in people not able to get their family in because we couldn't restrict eu nationals coming here so had to tighten up on non eu migration rules

    Your vaunted freedoms were for the few and when you asked the rest of us to pay and we finally got to answer we said "On your bike sunshine". Tough luck



    Some of that's fair enough, and the rest of it does come in the category of Leave won, so here we are.

    But the UK does seem to be moving in the direction of Westminster taking control. Replacing a set of rules applied imperfectly across a wide area, which a whimsical despot who might be replaced in four years time.

    Who, exactly has got the extra control now? If it's the government, is there any sign that they are capable of using that control effectively and morally?
    The voter has the extra control.

    If you're not happy with the government, elect a new one.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,731
    Pagan2 said:

    Maybe not for you but I think they are

    See the post above yours

    But the UK does seem to be moving in the direction of Westminster taking control. Replacing a set of rules applied imperfectly across a wide area, which a whimsical despot who might be replaced in four years time.

    That's your B

    It's bad. Very bad.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,835

    Scott_xP said:

    Barnesian said:

    Wow. These are really convincing counter arguments from the two of you, propping each other up. Well done.

    I'll say it again.

    This is as good as it ever gets for Brexit. The unsullied fantasy. Let them revel in it while they still can.

    It's all downhill from here...
    News broadcasts from East Germany used to be full of stories about how awful it was in the West: poverty, drug addiction, immigration and social collapse. I expect it's the kind of thing we can look forward to in order to portray the EU as a failed project.
    ‘The slaves of EUroland continue to suffer the tyranny of barely scorched toast and the obscenity of straight bananas; they’re so brainwashed they don’t even realise the horror of it all.’
    They can't even have a proper brew in a clean room what with their kettles and hoovers and all.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,629

    Pagan2 said:

    But I'm also conscious of powers I have lost, or had diluted. After Friday, it will be (at the very least) harder to move around, buy and sell stuff beyond the UK.

    Trimmed to the part I wanted to address

    Yes you had freedom to sell the stuff to europe but only around 5 to 10% of uk people were involved in that

    Yes you had the freedom to move to live and work in the eu but an even more miniscule amount of the people in this country ever wanted to take advantage of it.

    On the other hand 100% of people had to pay for those freedoms for the few

    a) via taxes
    b) via not having the ability to vote for policies that weren't allowed under the eu...nationalisation, state subsidy etc
    c) Having the eu used to get around national parliaments when it was used as a way of bringing in laws a national government wanted but knew it would never get past the national parliament so they would get it brought in at eu level.
    d) Paid for in people not able to get their family in because we couldn't restrict eu nationals coming here so had to tighten up on non eu migration rules

    Your vaunted freedoms were for the few and when you asked the rest of us to pay and we finally got to answer we said "On your bike sunshine". Tough luck



    Some of that's fair enough, and the rest of it does come in the category of Leave won, so here we are.

    But the UK does seem to be moving in the direction of Westminster taking control. Replacing a set of rules applied imperfectly across a wide area, which a whimsical despot who might be replaced in four years time.

    Who, exactly has got the extra control now? If it's the government, is there any sign that they are capable of using that control effectively and morally?
    I tend to the opinion that all our politicians are vacuous over the last 30 years and couldn't find their arse with both hands. I also suspect its because mp's really haven't had to worry too much about governing they were a local council in the eu which made most of the rules. Now we will need grown up politicians and hopefully over time we will get some instead of the no hopers that currently fill our legislature, you only have to look at both front benches and see the coterie of people with no start to their talent to see that.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,052
    edited December 2020
    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    So it looks as if, at least in my region, each site will get 1450 vaccines, 70% of which are Pfizer, and the intention is to use the AZN on smaller carehomes and the truly housebound. AZN delivery a week on Friday.

    And I suppose for your type of site? I assume the AZN vaccine can be administered more easily in a wider array of sites.
    Wave 3 and 4 sites are in General Practice.
    No squaddies giving jabs there? :p
    No they are too busy preparing to invade Wales and Scotland.

    The vaccination sites are here, 79 in total, but not sure if it is 1450 each (114 000 in total, for a population of 1 050 000) or 1450 per PCN. There are 16 PCNs so 23 200 vaccines. I think the latter, which would scale up to around 1 600 000 across the UK, assuming even distribution.


    https://twitter.com/CovidLeics/status/1341452477170892800?s=19
  • RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Forwarded to me, I have trimmed a bit for size.

    Dear Wave 3 and Wave 4 sites

    We are now in a position to confirm the arrangements for vaccine supply next week as part of the ongoing COVID-19 vaccination programme so please read this email carefully and in full.

    Thank you for all your ongoing efforts at this critical time.

    This notification should be read alongside the letter from xxx setting out changes to second dose vaccine scheduling and an expansion of first dose delivery. This note also reflects MHRA’s approval today of a new Astra Zeneca vaccine.
    The MHRA announced today that it would be reasonable to extend the gap between the first and second doses of the vaccine, originally set at three weeks for the Pfizer BioNTech, in order to offer vaccine to more people in the priority JCVI cohorts. This means that we will now delay all second doses until 12 weeks after the first dose.

    PCN LVS sites will now need to cancel appointments for second doses booked from next week (Monday 4th January).

    Snip

    Therefore, for week commencing 4th January:

    All wave 3 and 4 sites will be sent a 975 dose box of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccines on Wednesday 6th January. This should be used for new patients’ first doses.
    All wave 3 and 4 sites will receive a 75 dose pack of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccines to be delivered to your site on the same day as the 975 dose box. This is primarily intended to facilitate care home delivery.
    All wave 3 and 4 sites will receive 400 doses of Astra Zeneca vaccine to be delivered to your site on Friday 9th January. A revised SOP and other materials for this vaccine will be published as soon as possible. This vaccine will allow more flexible vaccination across the care homes sector and for those who are truly housebound.

    Snipped again




    Interesting, thanks for sharing.

    One thing I've never quite understood is why the Pfizer vaccine doesn't come in obvious round number boxes of doses. Why 975, rather than a neat 1,000?
    Just the size of the tray:

    https://twitter.com/FelipeOvalle/status/1342129891073024001
    5 doses per vial so would be 195 vials in the tray.

    I'm guessing (13x15)x5 is the shape of the box

    980 could have also made sense: (14x14)x5

    An even 1000 be a relatively hard number to come to with a squarish box.
    1 vial = 5 doses. A single tray gives the 975 doses.
    Isn't that what I just said?

    1 vial = 5 doses, so a single tray must have 195 vials.

    If the vials are arranged in a shape of 13x15 that would be 195 vials = 975 doses.
    If the vials were in the shape of 14x14 that would have been 196 vials = 980 doses.

    An even 1000 would have required 200 vials. You could get that with a rectangle 10x20 but if you want it square then that doesn't really work as well as 975 or 980.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    Andy_JS said:

    Yorkcity said:

    I know I am biased working for the police for 30 years.
    However I think they do a difficult job for those working on the front line during a pandemic.Many in very close contact with violent people who spit and injure officers.
    Maybe cyclefree omitted them for a reason I very much hope not.

    Why do you think the police were trusted more 30 years ago than today by many people?
    I never said that.
    I think you have read it wrong.
    I believe the police are better than they were over 30 years ago when I joined.
    In many aspects including more equality in race and gender also with much more diverse political views in its ranks than when it was nearly dominated by conservative views.
    If you can let me know what mean would be appreciated.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Forwarded to me, I have trimmed a bit for size.

    Dear Wave 3 and Wave 4 sites

    We are now in a position to confirm the arrangements for vaccine supply next week as part of the ongoing COVID-19 vaccination programme so please read this email carefully and in full.

    Thank you for all your ongoing efforts at this critical time.

    This notification should be read alongside the letter from xxx setting out changes to second dose vaccine scheduling and an expansion of first dose delivery. This note also reflects MHRA’s approval today of a new Astra Zeneca vaccine.
    The MHRA announced today that it would be reasonable to extend the gap between the first and second doses of the vaccine, originally set at three weeks for the Pfizer BioNTech, in order to offer vaccine to more people in the priority JCVI cohorts. This means that we will now delay all second doses until 12 weeks after the first dose.

    PCN LVS sites will now need to cancel appointments for second doses booked from next week (Monday 4th January).

    Snip

    Therefore, for week commencing 4th January:

    All wave 3 and 4 sites will be sent a 975 dose box of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccines on Wednesday 6th January. This should be used for new patients’ first doses.
    All wave 3 and 4 sites will receive a 75 dose pack of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccines to be delivered to your site on the same day as the 975 dose box. This is primarily intended to facilitate care home delivery.
    All wave 3 and 4 sites will receive 400 doses of Astra Zeneca vaccine to be delivered to your site on Friday 9th January. A revised SOP and other materials for this vaccine will be published as soon as possible. This vaccine will allow more flexible vaccination across the care homes sector and for those who are truly housebound.

    Snipped again




    Interesting, thanks for sharing.

    One thing I've never quite understood is why the Pfizer vaccine doesn't come in obvious round number boxes of doses. Why 975, rather than a neat 1,000?
    Just the size of the tray:

    https://twitter.com/FelipeOvalle/status/1342129891073024001
    5 doses per vial so would be 195 vials in the tray.

    I'm guessing (13x15)x5 is the shape of the box

    980 could have also made sense: (14x14)x5

    An even 1000 be a relatively hard number to come to with a squarish box.
    1 vial = 5 doses. A single tray gives the 975 doses.
    Isn't that what I just said?

    1 vial = 5 doses, so a single tray must have 195 vials.

    If the vials are arranged in a shape of 13x15 that would be 195 vials = 975 doses.
    If the vials were in the shape of 14x14 that would have been 196 vials = 980 doses.

    An even 1000 would have required 200 vials. You could get that with a rectangle 10x20 but if you want it square then that doesn't really work as well as 975 or 980.
    Maybe I misunderstood you. I wasn't sure why you were talking about (13x15)x5 in the context of Foxy's delivery. That would be 5x as many doses.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Leon said:

    Series 2, Mandalorian - last 3 episodes coming up......

    Is it worth getting Disney+? Serious question. I foresee many weeks indoors coming up
    Short answer .... no
  • Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    So it looks as if, at least in my region, each site will get 1450 vaccines, 70% of which are Pfizer, and the intention is to use the AZN on smaller carehomes and the truly housebound. AZN delivery a week on Friday.

    And I suppose for your type of site? I assume the AZN vaccine can be administered more easily in a wider array of sites.
    Wave 3 and 4 sites are in General Practice.
    What are these "waves"? The stuff on roll out I have seen talks about groups and groups within bands.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Forwarded to me, I have trimmed a bit for size.

    Dear Wave 3 and Wave 4 sites

    We are now in a position to confirm the arrangements for vaccine supply next week as part of the ongoing COVID-19 vaccination programme so please read this email carefully and in full.

    Thank you for all your ongoing efforts at this critical time.

    This notification should be read alongside the letter from xxx setting out changes to second dose vaccine scheduling and an expansion of first dose delivery. This note also reflects MHRA’s approval today of a new Astra Zeneca vaccine.
    The MHRA announced today that it would be reasonable to extend the gap between the first and second doses of the vaccine, originally set at three weeks for the Pfizer BioNTech, in order to offer vaccine to more people in the priority JCVI cohorts. This means that we will now delay all second doses until 12 weeks after the first dose.

    PCN LVS sites will now need to cancel appointments for second doses booked from next week (Monday 4th January).

    Snip

    Therefore, for week commencing 4th January:

    All wave 3 and 4 sites will be sent a 975 dose box of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccines on Wednesday 6th January. This should be used for new patients’ first doses.
    All wave 3 and 4 sites will receive a 75 dose pack of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccines to be delivered to your site on the same day as the 975 dose box. This is primarily intended to facilitate care home delivery.
    All wave 3 and 4 sites will receive 400 doses of Astra Zeneca vaccine to be delivered to your site on Friday 9th January. A revised SOP and other materials for this vaccine will be published as soon as possible. This vaccine will allow more flexible vaccination across the care homes sector and for those who are truly housebound.

    Snipped again




    Interesting, thanks for sharing.

    One thing I've never quite understood is why the Pfizer vaccine doesn't come in obvious round number boxes of doses. Why 975, rather than a neat 1,000?
    Just the size of the tray:

    https://twitter.com/FelipeOvalle/status/1342129891073024001
    5 doses per vial so would be 195 vials in the tray.

    I'm guessing (13x15)x5 is the shape of the box

    980 could have also made sense: (14x14)x5

    An even 1000 be a relatively hard number to come to with a squarish box.
    1 vial = 5 doses. A single tray gives the 975 doses.
    I see! Thanks for the twitter link
  • Pagan2 said:

    But I'm also conscious of powers I have lost, or had diluted. After Friday, it will be (at the very least) harder to move around, buy and sell stuff beyond the UK.

    Trimmed to the part I wanted to address

    Yes you had freedom to sell the stuff to europe but only around 5 to 10% of uk people were involved in that

    Yes you had the freedom to move to live and work in the eu but an even more miniscule amount of the people in this country ever wanted to take advantage of it.

    On the other hand 100% of people had to pay for those freedoms for the few

    a) via taxes
    b) via not having the ability to vote for policies that weren't allowed under the eu...nationalisation, state subsidy etc
    c) Having the eu used to get around national parliaments when it was used as a way of bringing in laws a national government wanted but knew it would never get past the national parliament so they would get it brought in at eu level.
    d) Paid for in people not able to get their family in because we couldn't restrict eu nationals coming here so had to tighten up on non eu migration rules

    Your vaunted freedoms were for the few and when you asked the rest of us to pay and we finally got to answer we said "On your bike sunshine". Tough luck



    Some of that's fair enough, and the rest of it does come in the category of Leave won, so here we are.

    But the UK does seem to be moving in the direction of Westminster taking control. Replacing a set of rules applied imperfectly across a wide area, which a whimsical despot who might be replaced in four years time.

    Who, exactly has got the extra control now? If it's the government, is there any sign that they are capable of using that control effectively and morally?
    The voter has the extra control.

    If you're not happy with the government, elect a new one.
    And for the next three years?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Pagan2 said:

    But I'm also conscious of powers I have lost, or had diluted. After Friday, it will be (at the very least) harder to move around, buy and sell stuff beyond the UK.

    Trimmed to the part I wanted to address

    Yes you had freedom to sell the stuff to europe but only around 5 to 10% of uk people were involved in that

    Yes you had the freedom to move to live and work in the eu but an even more miniscule amount of the people in this country ever wanted to take advantage of it.

    On the other hand 100% of people had to pay for those freedoms for the few

    a) via taxes
    b) via not having the ability to vote for policies that weren't allowed under the eu...nationalisation, state subsidy etc
    c) Having the eu used to get around national parliaments when it was used as a way of bringing in laws a national government wanted but knew it would never get past the national parliament so they would get it brought in at eu level.
    d) Paid for in people not able to get their family in because we couldn't restrict eu nationals coming here so had to tighten up on non eu migration rules

    Your vaunted freedoms were for the few and when you asked the rest of us to pay and we finally got to answer we said "On your bike sunshine". Tough luck



    Some of that's fair enough, and the rest of it does come in the category of Leave won, so here we are.

    But the UK does seem to be moving in the direction of Westminster taking control. Replacing a set of rules applied imperfectly across a wide area, which a whimsical despot who might be replaced in four years time.

    Who, exactly has got the extra control now? If it's the government, is there any sign that they are capable of using that control effectively and morally?
    The voter has the extra control.

    If you're not happy with the government, elect a new one.
    And for the next three years?
    A one-year maximum duration of a parliament would be a tad inconvenient, don't you think?
  • Pagan2 said:

    But I'm also conscious of powers I have lost, or had diluted. After Friday, it will be (at the very least) harder to move around, buy and sell stuff beyond the UK.

    Trimmed to the part I wanted to address

    Yes you had freedom to sell the stuff to europe but only around 5 to 10% of uk people were involved in that

    Yes you had the freedom to move to live and work in the eu but an even more miniscule amount of the people in this country ever wanted to take advantage of it.

    On the other hand 100% of people had to pay for those freedoms for the few

    a) via taxes
    b) via not having the ability to vote for policies that weren't allowed under the eu...nationalisation, state subsidy etc
    c) Having the eu used to get around national parliaments when it was used as a way of bringing in laws a national government wanted but knew it would never get past the national parliament so they would get it brought in at eu level.
    d) Paid for in people not able to get their family in because we couldn't restrict eu nationals coming here so had to tighten up on non eu migration rules

    Your vaunted freedoms were for the few and when you asked the rest of us to pay and we finally got to answer we said "On your bike sunshine". Tough luck



    Some of that's fair enough, and the rest of it does come in the category of Leave won, so here we are.

    But the UK does seem to be moving in the direction of Westminster taking control. Replacing a set of rules applied imperfectly across a wide area, which a whimsical despot who might be replaced in four years time.

    Who, exactly has got the extra control now? If it's the government, is there any sign that they are capable of using that control effectively and morally?
    The voter has the extra control.

    If you're not happy with the government, elect a new one.
    And for the next three years?
    The government that the voters only recently elected are in control. They will then face the judgement of the electorate for whatever they do.

    Democracy in action.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,629

    Pagan2 said:

    But I'm also conscious of powers I have lost, or had diluted. After Friday, it will be (at the very least) harder to move around, buy and sell stuff beyond the UK.

    Trimmed to the part I wanted to address

    Yes you had freedom to sell the stuff to europe but only around 5 to 10% of uk people were involved in that

    Yes you had the freedom to move to live and work in the eu but an even more miniscule amount of the people in this country ever wanted to take advantage of it.

    On the other hand 100% of people had to pay for those freedoms for the few

    a) via taxes
    b) via not having the ability to vote for policies that weren't allowed under the eu...nationalisation, state subsidy etc
    c) Having the eu used to get around national parliaments when it was used as a way of bringing in laws a national government wanted but knew it would never get past the national parliament so they would get it brought in at eu level.
    d) Paid for in people not able to get their family in because we couldn't restrict eu nationals coming here so had to tighten up on non eu migration rules

    Your vaunted freedoms were for the few and when you asked the rest of us to pay and we finally got to answer we said "On your bike sunshine". Tough luck



    Some of that's fair enough, and the rest of it does come in the category of Leave won, so here we are.

    But the UK does seem to be moving in the direction of Westminster taking control. Replacing a set of rules applied imperfectly across a wide area, which a whimsical despot who might be replaced in four years time.

    Who, exactly has got the extra control now? If it's the government, is there any sign that they are capable of using that control effectively and morally?
    The voter has the extra control.

    If you're not happy with the government, elect a new one.
    And for the next three years?
    You make the mistake of thinking brexit was the end game. For some it's the first step. Had to be out the EU as a first step, next step is to break the power of westminster.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    edited December 2020
    Just had a joke sent to me

    "Putting the country into tier 4 lockdown but schools remaining open is like letting Prince Andrew baby sit your kids"

    :smiley:

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,731

    And for the next three years?

    Hope and pray they don't abolish elections...
  • RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Forwarded to me, I have trimmed a bit for size.

    Dear Wave 3 and Wave 4 sites

    We are now in a position to confirm the arrangements for vaccine supply next week as part of the ongoing COVID-19 vaccination programme so please read this email carefully and in full.

    Thank you for all your ongoing efforts at this critical time.

    This notification should be read alongside the letter from xxx setting out changes to second dose vaccine scheduling and an expansion of first dose delivery. This note also reflects MHRA’s approval today of a new Astra Zeneca vaccine.
    The MHRA announced today that it would be reasonable to extend the gap between the first and second doses of the vaccine, originally set at three weeks for the Pfizer BioNTech, in order to offer vaccine to more people in the priority JCVI cohorts. This means that we will now delay all second doses until 12 weeks after the first dose.

    PCN LVS sites will now need to cancel appointments for second doses booked from next week (Monday 4th January).

    Snip

    Therefore, for week commencing 4th January:

    All wave 3 and 4 sites will be sent a 975 dose box of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccines on Wednesday 6th January. This should be used for new patients’ first doses.
    All wave 3 and 4 sites will receive a 75 dose pack of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccines to be delivered to your site on the same day as the 975 dose box. This is primarily intended to facilitate care home delivery.
    All wave 3 and 4 sites will receive 400 doses of Astra Zeneca vaccine to be delivered to your site on Friday 9th January. A revised SOP and other materials for this vaccine will be published as soon as possible. This vaccine will allow more flexible vaccination across the care homes sector and for those who are truly housebound.

    Snipped again




    Interesting, thanks for sharing.

    One thing I've never quite understood is why the Pfizer vaccine doesn't come in obvious round number boxes of doses. Why 975, rather than a neat 1,000?
    Just the size of the tray:

    https://twitter.com/FelipeOvalle/status/1342129891073024001
    5 doses per vial so would be 195 vials in the tray.

    I'm guessing (13x15)x5 is the shape of the box

    980 could have also made sense: (14x14)x5

    An even 1000 be a relatively hard number to come to with a squarish box.
    1 vial = 5 doses. A single tray gives the 975 doses.
    Isn't that what I just said?

    1 vial = 5 doses, so a single tray must have 195 vials.

    If the vials are arranged in a shape of 13x15 that would be 195 vials = 975 doses.
    If the vials were in the shape of 14x14 that would have been 196 vials = 980 doses.

    An even 1000 would have required 200 vials. You could get that with a rectangle 10x20 but if you want it square then that doesn't really work as well as 975 or 980.
    Maybe I misunderstood you. I wasn't sure why you were talking about (13x15)x5 in the context of Foxy's delivery. That would be 5x as many doses.
    I am guessing it is vials in a 13x15 shape is my guess, times 5 doses per vial.

    Hence (13x15) vials = 195 vials x 5 doses per vial = 975
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,279
    "WHO says coronavirus is not necessarily 'the big one' and a more deadly pandemic could sweep the globe

    Dr Mike Ryan said the pandemic was a 'wake-up call' that the planet is fragile
    He said it had shown science, logistics, training and government needed to improve to manage future global health crises better
    Experts from the WHO spoke at the year's final press briefing on Tuesday
    Director General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus praised progress made so far but noted new variants of Covid-19 and pandemic fatigue as challenges ahead"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9098449/WHO-says-coronavirus-pandemic-not-necessarily-big-one.html
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,559
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    What I’m not clear on, at this moment, is whether we are supposed to be providing remote learning for non-exam classes from the 11th January. Because so far the comments I have seen are ambiguous.

    We should be, but that’s never been a consideration in education policy.

    This is from Twitter, but Laura McInerney is one of the good ones

    https://twitter.com/miss_mcinerney/status/1344362968021168129?s=19

    So it looks like schools don't have to provide online teaching, despite what the law says.

    Presumably, this only breaks the law in a specific and limited way.
    Thanks.

    This is getting beyond ridiculous.

    I can see logic in keeping schools shut, but what’s the point of insisting we upgrade remote learning and providing all these bits of tech if 90% of those off won’t need it?
    The logic is that if you require schools to do several contradictory things, you can them blame them for failing.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,052

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    So it looks as if, at least in my region, each site will get 1450 vaccines, 70% of which are Pfizer, and the intention is to use the AZN on smaller carehomes and the truly housebound. AZN delivery a week on Friday.

    And I suppose for your type of site? I assume the AZN vaccine can be administered more easily in a wider array of sites.
    Wave 3 and 4 sites are in General Practice.
    What are these "waves"? The stuff on roll out I have seen talks about groups and groups within bands.
    Waves are the sites rather than the clientele.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,207

    Scott_xP said:

    Barnesian said:

    Wow. These are really convincing counter arguments from the two of you, propping each other up. Well done.

    I'll say it again.

    This is as good as it ever gets for Brexit. The unsullied fantasy. Let them revel in it while they still can.

    It's all downhill from here...
    News broadcasts from East Germany used to be full of stories about how awful it was in the West: poverty, drug addiction, immigration and social collapse. I expect it's the kind of thing we can look forward to in order to portray the EU as a failed project.
    ‘The slaves of EUroland continue to suffer the tyranny of barely scorched toast and the obscenity of straight bananas; they’re so brainwashed they don’t even realise the horror of it all.’
    The weird thing is, this is the way liberal media giants like the New York Times, and, to a lesser extent, some EU media, are reporting on Brexit Britain.

    Like we have become this total freaky toilet-of-the-world, riven with racism, divided, bigoted and violent, doomed to a nihilistic decline, and so on and so forth. It's insane hyperbole.

    Today I took my daughter to the vet to get her beloved budgie checked. Then I had a nice lunch. This afternoon I met a friend for a thermos of mulled wine, each, in Waterlow Park in Highgate. Parents walked their kids, young people flirted and laughed, joggers passed by, checking their wearable fitness apps. And people of all races, colours, creeds and beliefs happily mixed in the higgledy-piggeldy madness that is London, somehow without stabbing each other. Yes Covid has made life very difficult, but that is true of the entire world, and in the UK civilised life continues.

    Compare this with, ooh, I dunno, New York City and the USA? - where murder rates have soared since Covid.

    https://www.vox.com/2020/8/3/21334149/murders-crime-shootings-protests-riots-trump-biden

    What happened there then? Did the USA Brexit even more dangerously? Creating this perilous instability? Or is it just a kind of liberal elite wishful thinking, that WANTS to see Britain as a mad, doom-laden hellhouse, because a successful, democratic vote to overthrow an unwanted elite menaces elites everywhere?
  • The newly discovered, more contagious variant of the coronavirus — first seen in Britain — may have been found in a second person in Colorado, state officials said on Wednesday.

    NYTimes blog
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,731
    Pagan2 said:

    You make the mistake of thinking brexit was the end game. For some it's the first step. Had to be out the EU as a first step, next step is to break the power of westminster.

    Brexit consolidates power in Westminster.

    Actually it consolidates it in Government. Parliament is sidelined completely.
  • Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    But I'm also conscious of powers I have lost, or had diluted. After Friday, it will be (at the very least) harder to move around, buy and sell stuff beyond the UK.

    Trimmed to the part I wanted to address

    Yes you had freedom to sell the stuff to europe but only around 5 to 10% of uk people were involved in that

    Yes you had the freedom to move to live and work in the eu but an even more miniscule amount of the people in this country ever wanted to take advantage of it.

    On the other hand 100% of people had to pay for those freedoms for the few

    a) via taxes
    b) via not having the ability to vote for policies that weren't allowed under the eu...nationalisation, state subsidy etc
    c) Having the eu used to get around national parliaments when it was used as a way of bringing in laws a national government wanted but knew it would never get past the national parliament so they would get it brought in at eu level.
    d) Paid for in people not able to get their family in because we couldn't restrict eu nationals coming here so had to tighten up on non eu migration rules

    Your vaunted freedoms were for the few and when you asked the rest of us to pay and we finally got to answer we said "On your bike sunshine". Tough luck



    Some of that's fair enough, and the rest of it does come in the category of Leave won, so here we are.

    But the UK does seem to be moving in the direction of Westminster taking control. Replacing a set of rules applied imperfectly across a wide area, which a whimsical despot who might be replaced in four years time.

    Who, exactly has got the extra control now? If it's the government, is there any sign that they are capable of using that control effectively and morally?
    The voter has the extra control.

    If you're not happy with the government, elect a new one.
    And for the next three years?
    You make the mistake of thinking brexit was the end game. For some it's the first step. Had to be out the EU as a first step, next step is to break the power of westminster.
    Explain that one to me please? 🤔

    Westminster has just had the biggest restoration of power in half a century.
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    So it looks as if, at least in my region, each site will get 1450 vaccines, 70% of which are Pfizer, and the intention is to use the AZN on smaller carehomes and the truly housebound. AZN delivery a week on Friday.

    And I suppose for your type of site? I assume the AZN vaccine can be administered more easily in a wider array of sites.
    Wave 3 and 4 sites are in General Practice.
    What are these "waves"? The stuff on roll out I have seen talks about groups and groups within bands.
    Waves are the sites rather than the clientele.
    Thanks.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,731
    Leon said:

    a successful, democratic vote to overthrow an unwanted elite menaces elites everywhere?

    We didn't overthrow an elite.

    You validated them and gave them untrammelled power.
  • Pagan2 said:

    But I'm also conscious of powers I have lost, or had diluted. After Friday, it will be (at the very least) harder to move around, buy and sell stuff beyond the UK.

    Trimmed to the part I wanted to address

    Yes you had freedom to sell the stuff to europe but only around 5 to 10% of uk people were involved in that

    Yes you had the freedom to move to live and work in the eu but an even more miniscule amount of the people in this country ever wanted to take advantage of it.

    On the other hand 100% of people had to pay for those freedoms for the few

    a) via taxes
    b) via not having the ability to vote for policies that weren't allowed under the eu...nationalisation, state subsidy etc
    c) Having the eu used to get around national parliaments when it was used as a way of bringing in laws a national government wanted but knew it would never get past the national parliament so they would get it brought in at eu level.
    d) Paid for in people not able to get their family in because we couldn't restrict eu nationals coming here so had to tighten up on non eu migration rules

    Your vaunted freedoms were for the few and when you asked the rest of us to pay and we finally got to answer we said "On your bike sunshine". Tough luck



    Some of that's fair enough, and the rest of it does come in the category of Leave won, so here we are.

    But the UK does seem to be moving in the direction of Westminster taking control. Replacing a set of rules applied imperfectly across a wide area, which a whimsical despot who might be replaced in four years time.

    Who, exactly has got the extra control now? If it's the government, is there any sign that they are capable of using that control effectively and morally?
    The voter has the extra control.

    If you're not happy with the government, elect a new one.
    And for the next three years?
    The government that the voters only recently elected are in control. They will then face the judgement of the electorate for whatever they do.

    Democracy in action.
    In three years time, when some will no doubt intend to retire anyway.

    But that's the problem with governments that make the market operate less freely. A feedback cycle of five years is a trifle... sclerotic.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Pagan2 said:

    You make the mistake of thinking brexit was the end game. For some it's the first step. Had to be out the EU as a first step, next step is to break the power of westminster.

    Brexit consolidates power in Westminster.

    Actually it consolidates it in Government. Parliament is sidelined completely.
    No it consolidates it in Westminster.

    If the Government wields power it only does so because Parliament lets it do so.

    If Parliament is sidelined it is only because Parliament is allowing itself to be sidelined.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,207
    Floater said:

    Leon said:

    Series 2, Mandalorian - last 3 episodes coming up......

    Is it worth getting Disney+? Serious question. I foresee many weeks indoors coming up
    Short answer .... no
    Short response: ta! I shall abjure
  • Andy_JS said:

    "WHO says coronavirus is not necessarily 'the big one' and a more deadly pandemic could sweep the globe

    Dr Mike Ryan said the pandemic was a 'wake-up call' that the planet is fragile
    He said it had shown science, logistics, training and government needed to improve to manage future global health crises better
    Experts from the WHO spoke at the year's final press briefing on Tuesday
    Director General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus praised progress made so far but noted new variants of Covid-19 and pandemic fatigue as challenges ahead"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9098449/WHO-says-coronavirus-pandemic-not-necessarily-big-one.html

    Luckily for us the British state will be excellent at reviewing what has happened and learning lessons and implementing new procedures ready for the Big One.

  • Pagan2 said:

    But I'm also conscious of powers I have lost, or had diluted. After Friday, it will be (at the very least) harder to move around, buy and sell stuff beyond the UK.

    Trimmed to the part I wanted to address

    Yes you had freedom to sell the stuff to europe but only around 5 to 10% of uk people were involved in that

    Yes you had the freedom to move to live and work in the eu but an even more miniscule amount of the people in this country ever wanted to take advantage of it.

    On the other hand 100% of people had to pay for those freedoms for the few

    a) via taxes
    b) via not having the ability to vote for policies that weren't allowed under the eu...nationalisation, state subsidy etc
    c) Having the eu used to get around national parliaments when it was used as a way of bringing in laws a national government wanted but knew it would never get past the national parliament so they would get it brought in at eu level.
    d) Paid for in people not able to get their family in because we couldn't restrict eu nationals coming here so had to tighten up on non eu migration rules

    Your vaunted freedoms were for the few and when you asked the rest of us to pay and we finally got to answer we said "On your bike sunshine". Tough luck



    Some of that's fair enough, and the rest of it does come in the category of Leave won, so here we are.

    But the UK does seem to be moving in the direction of Westminster taking control. Replacing a set of rules applied imperfectly across a wide area, which a whimsical despot who might be replaced in four years time.

    Who, exactly has got the extra control now? If it's the government, is there any sign that they are capable of using that control effectively and morally?
    The voter has the extra control.

    If you're not happy with the government, elect a new one.
    And for the next three years?
    The government that the voters only recently elected are in control. They will then face the judgement of the electorate for whatever they do.

    Democracy in action.
    In three years time, when some will no doubt intend to retire anyway.

    But that's the problem with governments that make the market operate less freely. A feedback cycle of five years is a trifle... sclerotic.
    Not at all, it is the polar opposite of that.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    a successful, democratic vote to overthrow an unwanted elite menaces elites everywhere?

    We didn't overthrow an elite.

    You validated them and gave them untrammelled power.
    We ousted an unelected unaccountable elite and gave its powers to an elected and accountable one.

    Progress.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623
    Andy_JS said:

    "WHO says coronavirus is not necessarily 'the big one' and a more deadly pandemic could sweep the globe

    Dr Mike Ryan said the pandemic was a 'wake-up call' that the planet is fragile
    He said it had shown science, logistics, training and government needed to improve to manage future global health crises better
    Experts from the WHO spoke at the year's final press briefing on Tuesday
    Director General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus praised progress made so far but noted new variants of Covid-19 and pandemic fatigue as challenges ahead"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9098449/WHO-says-coronavirus-pandemic-not-necessarily-big-one.html

    A cheery thought to more or less end the year on...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,559

    rcs1000 said:

    Of course Richard B Russell was.....er.....a democrat Senator
    The Democrats were the party that opposed blacks being allowed to vote. Indeed, they had segregationist Senators, including one that remained in office until 2010.

    There is no doubt that the Republicans, the party of Lincoln and of Reagan, were the non-racist party.

    There is also no doubt that Lincoln and Reagan, men of enormous personal probity, would be disgusted at Trump.
    Otoh one link between Reagan and Trump was Roy Cohn. Pretty sure Reagan’s disgust would be tempered by what point he was on between arch conservative cold warrior and dead cuddly old duffer on whom folk can impose their own templates.
    Is that the man of enormous personal probity who defended Nixon throughout Watergate ?
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