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2021: What lies in store from Alastair Meeks – politicalbetting.com

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  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,681

    I very much enjoyed “Plot Against America”. I feared it would be cliched tripe, but it was saved by a David Simon script and great acting.

    I am 4/5 the way through Steve McQueen’s Little Axe movies.

    The latter is an outstanding artistic achievement. The New York Times placed every single one of the five movies on their Best Films of 2020 list.
    Yep. Little Axe. Superb. My favourite was the "party" episode.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,585

    I have to admit, I turned it on, it felt a bit wokey, and I turned it off after 5 mins.
    It's worth persisting. I felt the same at first, but it gets better, and by the end is deeply moving. The revelation of the afterlives of the characters is quite a moment.

    And the acting is tremendous, across the board. From kids and teens. 9/10, double plus good.
  • By 47% to 19% Scots back voting for the deal

    That's a subsample, so worthless.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,585
    edited December 2020

    No news on the Oxford vaccine - weren't the FT and Torygraph promising approval today?

    No news on the Oxford vaccine - weren't the FT and Torygraph promising approval today?

    No news on the Oxford vaccine - weren't the FT and Torygraph promising approval today?

    No news on the Oxford vaccine - weren't the FT and Torygraph promising approval today?

    I think it was caveated as ‘possibly as soon as’ today. I’m hoping for tomorrow, but as I pointed out previously, it looks like the plan is to start on the 4th so no issue as long as it is this week. It wouldn’t amaze me to discover there was an mhra meeting today, having given members over the Xmas period to look at data.
    (Also apologies for stuffing up the quote...)
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,690

    There is subtlety. Every word carries a meaning. And it is probably Alec Guinness's finest piece to camera.

    Although... I didn't like Smiley's People the first time round, but the second time it was maybe better than TTSS.

    Funny, the BBC in Scotland, the Fisherman’s Friend, have been pumping out fishy soundbites continuously for years. Not sure why that would change, unless the fishermen unhappy about Brexit narrative is suddenly not to their taste.
    What I mean is, we always hear about the shock and horror and disappointment. When actually there are solid gains and slow growth, it won't be news.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,182
    kinabalu said:

    Yep. Little Axe. Superb. My favourite was the "party" episode.
    Yes.

    Well that episode - Lover’s Rock - also topped Sight and Sound’s Films of 2020 list.

    Wonderful stuff.
  • No news on the Oxford vaccine - weren't the FT and Torygraph promising approval today?

    My theory is that the AZ vaccine will be announced tomorrow then Boris Johnson will announce as part of the tier review due tomorrow we're all moving to tier 42 but we'll have everyone vaccinated by May so don't worry there's light at the end of the tunnel.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,102

    By 47% to 19% Scots back voting for the deal

    ..that would suggest the SNP voting against looks like a mistake. But probably guessing as Sturgeon can do no wrong they'll come through unscathed
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,654
    I have not had a pizza since February but I have just added one to our next Waitrose order. No prizes for guessing the topping.
  • That's a subsample, so worthless.
    Worried
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    Pineapple?

    I have not had a pizza since February but I have just added one to our next Waitrose order. No prizes for guessing the topping.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,585
    Has anyone else seen Bridgerton?

    I really don't know what to make of the extraordinary multiracial cast. As in: I don't know what it is trying to do or say to us.

    Still good fun, tho.
  • Worried
    What’s your prediction for the next proper Scottish poll, skipper?
  • Leon said:

    It was close to the truth from the perspective of the wrongly accused boys, but I was quite uncomfortable with the way it glossed over the actual crime. A real woman WAS really beaten and raped, by a murderous gang, and left for dead in Central Park. Her story was essentially ignored. Hmm.

    Still a notably fine piece of TV.
    Central Park 5, no?


    Also a documentary, by Ken Burns.

    And on that note, PBS America is a delight - over lockdown they've replayed the Our World War series, as well as a tonne of Burns' work.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,281
    Leon said:

    Bodyguard is really rather good. Not genius, but a highly watchable thriller, nonetheless

    The Third Day has so many problems it is hard to know where to start. It was a queasy remake of the Wicker Man mixed with Broadchurch, like mixing offal with ice cream.



    I love that film, Whitney Houston and Kevin Costner were excellent.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,266
    edited December 2020

    I think it was caveated as ‘possibly as soon as’ today. I’m hoping for tomorrow, but as I pointed out previously, it looks like the plan is to start on the 4th so no issue as long as it is this week. It wouldn’t amaze me to discover there was an mhra meeting today, having given members over the Xmas period to look at data.
    (Also apologies for stuffing up the quote...)
    (You're forgiven)
    (You're forgiven)
    (You're forgiven)
    (You're forgiven)
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,050
    Substitute fish for any other UK business...

    https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1344028032869216263
  • What’s your prediction for the next proper Scottish poll, skipper?
    Substantial SNP lead
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,585
    Scott_xP said:

    Substitute fish for any other UK business...

    https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1344028032869216263

    If you read the article, the headline does not match the content. The fishermen of Brixham are shrugging, not wailing.
  • Andy_JS said:

    I love that film, Whitney Houston and Kevin Costner were excellent.
    I’m not sure if that’s deadpan humour, but kudos if so.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Have they turned to drugs and teenage flesh during the periods of optimism?
    You say that like it’s a bad thing?
  • Worried
    I'm not worried, only idiots rely on subsamples.

    It is a PB inalienable truth.

    There have been times when the Tories have led in the Scottish subsamples, I laughed then, as I laugh now.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,182
    Leon said:

    Has anyone else seen Bridgerton?

    I really don't know what to make of the extraordinary multiracial cast. As in: I don't know what it is trying to do or say to us.

    Still good fun, tho.

    No, and I can’t be arsed.
    Isn’t it just pap in Regency costume? Kind of like Emily in Paris, but in farthingales.

    The multiracial David Copperfield film was very good, though.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,423
    Leon said:

    Has anyone else seen Bridgerton?

    I really don't know what to make of the extraordinary multiracial cast. As in: I don't know what it is trying to do or say to us.

    Still good fun, tho.

    With such matters I feel like it matters what kind of show it is trying to be. If it is just being silly fun, then verisimilitude won't matter. I loved the show Reign, which was utterly absurd in every way shape or form (particularly its first season) and no one's idea of high quality I imagine, as it was just hilarious to have this soap opera style plotting and romantic melodrama, suddenly interrupted by the characters arguing seriously about royal marriage alliances and deadly civil strife between protestants and catholics and the like.
  • My theory is that the AZ vaccine will be announced tomorrow then Boris Johnson will announce as part of the tier review due tomorrow we're all moving to tier 42 but we'll have everyone vaccinated by May so don't worry there's light at the end of the tunnel.
    Tier 42?

    Covid really has messed up life, the universe and everything.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,690
    Andy_JS said:

    I love that film, Whitney Houston and Kevin Costner were excellent.
    They were! Perhaps everything called Bodyguard is always commercially successful and critically acclaimed.
  • For my fellow relentless optimists.

    WHO warns Covid-19 pandemic is 'not necessarily the big one'.

    Experts tell end of year media briefing that virus is likely to become endemic and the world will have to learn to live with it.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/29/who-warns-covid-19-pandemic-is-not-necessarily-the-big-one
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617

    I guess the recent Unionist cunning plan that the Union can only be saved by a SLab revival is being shiftily kicked under the carpet.
    I must say HYUFD has been very quiet on tactical voting for SLAB of late, as you commented earlier, in comparison to recently.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,087
    Leon said:

    Has anyone else seen Bridgerton?

    I really don't know what to make of the extraordinary multiracial cast. As in: I don't know what it is trying to do or say to us.

    Still good fun, tho.

    I saw a bit - my children watched for a while

    Mills & Boon version of Jane Austen.

    Only vaguely interesting bit was the interiors - mix of sets and some real places in London.
  • Tier 42?

    Covid really has messed up life, the universe and everything.
    Yes, I've had Douglas Adams on my mind today after that German front page.
  • Leon said:

    If you read the article, the headline does not match the content. The fishermen of Brixham are shrugging, not wailing.
    "Mike Sharp, the owner of two Brixham beam trawlers, took part in the Fishing for Leave protest on the Thames in London during the EU referendum campaign.

    Four years on, he is furious at the EU deal. “I’m hoping the deal gets voted out by parliament. I doubt it. Boris came to Brixham and promised us everything. He’s used fishing as a lever to get whatever he wants. Fishing’s not important to them. I have a fish merchant friend who calls two-faced people kippers. Boris is a kipper.”

    And

    "Brixham-born Sean Irvine, 61, who has been fishing from the port since the early 1990s, said he was glad, at least, that there had been a deal but he is concerned about the new paperwork that will be needed to send fish to mainland Europe – as much as 80% of Irvine’s catch is exported.

    “We’ll be catching the same fish in the same water as the French but we’ll have to produce a mountain of paperwork for it. It seems to me what we have achieved is minuscule when you think of the upsets it has caused in families and communities. All that effort for so little.”

  • I have not had a pizza since February but I have just added one to our next Waitrose order. No prizes for guessing the topping.

    Shit. I had a pizza in Het Uiltje brewery tap in Haarlem in July. It was so good. Hadn't had one in six months. Broke my rule of only eating local food while on holiday.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    kinabalu said:

    My bro is COO for a London Trust and he tells me that the PPE is so good that not a single doctor or nurse involved in Covid treatment in his hospitals has caught the disease on duty since the pandemic began.

    Also of the firm view that the Nightingales were a PR driven waste of resource.
    Management of a London hospital doesn’t like anything that suggests he couldn’t cope?
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    Leon said:

    Has anyone else seen Bridgerton?

    I really don't know what to make of the extraordinary multiracial cast. As in: I don't know what it is trying to do or say to us.

    Still good fun, tho.

    I think the idea is "This is how society should look, and should always have looked." Despite the fact that the black population in Britain in 1780 was apparently only 0.1%
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,668

    That can only surely happen on the first few days - after a while all those manning the vaccine roll-out will have had theirs.
    That is true I suppose. Went to a vaccine centre today. Very few appointments are being missed they said. Five doses per vial. They are doing 350 per day about to go to over 500. It was very slick.

    I suppose it's early days...
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617
    edited December 2020

    I think there was even a bit of bleating on here about the pubs and restaurants of Edinburgh not being allowed to let rip for the festive period. No names, no pack drill since it’s Christmas.
    Quite, even without hindsight it brought a cold sweat to the forehead. Just the very thought. Given how many people come to the city at the drop of a railwayperson's war fan (or whatever they call the thing that replaces the green flag) at Kings Cross.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,905

    Bodyguard was huge fun, but two years ago!
    Jed Mercurio needs to pull his finger out.

    If you know any other thriller-writers, will you tell them get their skates on?
    Mercurio was busy writing Line of Duty 6. Which was almost done filming before lockdown.
    Incidentally have binge watched the entirety. Very enjoyable and tense. Even though I've seen them before. And even if they do stretch credulity to breaking point.
    Am planning on Bodies next.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,423
    edited December 2020

    No, and I can’t be arsed.
    Isn’t it just pap in Regency costume? Kind of like Emily in Paris, but in farthingales.

    The multiracial David Copperfield film was very good, though.
    I must say I found that rather boring, but that was nothing to do with the cast (Dev Patel is a very good actor to name but one) or production values. Having now read the book, I think I just found its tale dull.

    Honestly, if it had been a bit more like a typical Ianucci project, for better and worse, it might have been more interesting.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,654

    My theory is that the AZ vaccine will be announced tomorrow then Boris Johnson will announce as part of the tier review due tomorrow we're all moving to tier 42 but we'll have everyone vaccinated by May so don't worry there's light at the end of the tunnel.
    Is Tier 42 a Level 42 tribute act?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,668
    Leon said:

    It was close to the truth from the perspective of the wrongly accused boys, but I was quite uncomfortable with the way it glossed over the actual crime. A real woman WAS really beaten and raped, by a murderous gang, and left for dead in Central Park. Her story was essentially ignored. Hmm.

    Still a notably fine piece of TV.

    Speaking of racial polemics, I confess I am enjoying Bridgerton on Netflix, even though it has revealed to me a startling fact, that the population of aristocratic late Georgian London was about 30% black.
    Yes absolutely about the victim. But that was a different issue and as we saw the polis made it too easy to connect the two events in the minds of themselves, the jury, and just about everyone else.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    Tier 42?

    Covid really has messed up life, the universe and everything.
    I blame it on the white mice. Or bats. Or something. Perhaps the improbability drive f***ed up.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,668
    TimT said:

    I am on standby each day for a call from my wife telling me that the hospital where she works is looking for people to use up the leftover thawed vaccine for precisely that reason. Most of those in the hospital who are not on the top priority list have already had the opportunity to use up leftovers.
    Again not as per today. There are plenty of NHS staff around to stick needles into.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,585

    No, and I can’t be arsed.
    Isn’t it just pap in Regency costume? Kind of like Emily in Paris, but in farthingales.

    The multiracial David Copperfield film was very good, though.
    It confuses me because, on the one hand, we are all supposed to be super-aware of race, Black Lives Matter, and all that, and yet here is a series with black Georgian dukes and duchesses and no one mentions their race or colour. So the series is telling us race and colour DON'T matter? So you could have a series about American slavery with whites playing slaves? Or War and Peace set very much in St Petersburg yet entirely cast with Chinese or Inuit actors?

    It is extra confusing because in many ways the series strives hard to be historically accurate - it has high production values, it carefully recreates 1813 Vauxhall Pleasure Gardens (tho I am told the costumery is all over the shop, with bits of Regency mixed with bits of mid-Victorian)

    Race is such a fucked-up subject, and no one knows quite how to handle it: perhaps the series is simply telling us THAT.
  • "Mike Sharp, the owner of two Brixham beam trawlers, took part in the Fishing for Leave protest on the Thames in London during the EU referendum campaign.

    Four years on, he is furious at the EU deal. “I’m hoping the deal gets voted out by parliament. I doubt it. Boris came to Brixham and promised us everything. He’s used fishing as a lever to get whatever he wants. Fishing’s not important to them. I have a fish merchant friend who calls two-faced people kippers. Boris is a kipper.”

    And

    "Brixham-born Sean Irvine, 61, who has been fishing from the port since the early 1990s, said he was glad, at least, that there had been a deal but he is concerned about the new paperwork that will be needed to send fish to mainland Europe – as much as 80% of Irvine’s catch is exported.

    “We’ll be catching the same fish in the same water as the French but we’ll have to produce a mountain of paperwork for it. It seems to me what we have achieved is minuscule when you think of the upsets it has caused in families and communities. All that effort for so little.”

    I recall I read something which said they are annoyed we are not giving then quota they can immediately sell on. Instead we seem to have effectively sold our national quota for a decent deal on LPF. Which sounds good to me.
  • I have not had a pizza since February but I have just added one to our next Waitrose order. No prizes for guessing the topping.

    Cauliflower?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617
    Leon said:

    Bodyguard is really rather good. Not genius, but a highly watchable thriller, nonetheless

    The Third Day has so many problems it is hard to know where to start. It was a queasy remake of the Wicker Man mixed with Broadchurch, like mixing offal with ice cream.



    https://www.foodnetwork.ca/recipe/duck-liver-ice-cream-with-tokay-preserved-cherries-and-wild-rice/12413/
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,480
    Latest Korean horror on Netflix - Sweet Home - is entertaining.
    The ten episodes (or at least the first nine) are more interesting than ten seasons of the various bits of the Walking Dead franchise.

    And very much on point in lockdown year.

    For political nerds, 2019’s Chief of Staff is also fun.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,668

    Yes.

    Well that episode - Lover’s Rock - also topped Sight and Sound’s Films of 2020 list.

    Wonderful stuff.
    SMALL AXE!!

    Ahem, sorry
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Obviously I was joking about the drawbridge, but how easy is it to move lots of patients that distance? Presumably you'd have to get Yorkshire ambulances to come and fetch them as all the London ones will be busy.

    Would the plan normally be to move the Covid cases or other ones?

    I thought the point of the Nightingales was that they would take marginal patients leaving more space for the critical ones in hospital - but if that doesn't work in this situation then perhaps their usefulness is rather less than intended...



    They were to take incubated patients with mechanical support. Not much nursing, really monitoring and caring while you wait to see if they make it
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,585
    Carnyx said:

    https://www.foodnetwork.ca/recipe/duck-liver-ice-cream-with-tokay-preserved-cherries-and-wild-rice/12413/
    Hah. Even as I wrote that analogy I thought "I bet someone has actually tried to deliver that mixture".

    It still sounds utterly disgusting.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Mr Meeks did not call for a short circuit break followed by a "fill your boots Wales, party on down" release from lockdown.

    The fire break failed, and it did fail,. because it was managed badly. Had the fire break been followed by Johnson's excellent tier system it might have worked.
    I disagree - with a 10 day incubation period, 2 weeks isn’t enough. But the ending was badly mishandled.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,668

    I have not had a pizza since February but I have just added one to our next Waitrose order. No prizes for guessing the topping.

    Useless. Needs to be a delivery service otherwise it's too healthy. They slather them in loveliness (oil?) whereas the supermarket ones are depressingly non oily.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,654
    TimT said:

    Pineapple?

    Of course not! Ham and pineapple.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617
    Leon said:

    Hah. Even as I wrote that analogy I thought "I bet someone has actually tried to deliver that mixture".

    It still sounds utterly disgusting.
    I learnt not to dismiss apparently weird combinations, after being served rabbit in chocolate sauce with pine nuts in a Skye cottage many yerars ago. (A bitter sauce, actually.)
  • Is Tier 42 a Level 42 tribute act?
    It does look like the virus started in The Chinese Way.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    "Dirty weekend to Cornwall" - was this part of HMG's valiant efforts to save the hospitality sector?
    I was more curious on whether the 2 had gone together or separately
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,668

    I saw a bit - my children watched for a while

    Mills & Boon version of Jane Austen.

    Only vaguely interesting bit was the interiors - mix of sets and some real places in London.
    They used Burghley a lot in The Crown for one of the royal palaces.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,182
    Leon said:

    It confuses me because, on the one hand, we are all supposed to be super-aware of race, Black Lives Matter, and all that, and yet here is a series with black Georgian dukes and duchesses and no one mentions their race or colour. So the series is telling us race and colour DON'T matter? So you could have a series about American slavery with whites playing slaves? Or War and Peace set very much in St Petersburg yet entirely cast with Chinese or Inuit actors?

    It is extra confusing because in many ways the series strives hard to be historically accurate - it has high production values, it carefully recreates 1813 Vauxhall Pleasure Gardens (tho I am told the costumery is all over the shop, with bits of Regency mixed with bits of mid-Victorian)

    Race is such a fucked-up subject, and no one knows quite how to handle it: perhaps the series is simply telling us THAT.
    Generally, I find this sort of thing irritating.
    It distracts from versimilitude, which is what I crave.

    I hope this doesn’t make me a screaming racist.

    I guess, by the sounds of it though, Bridgerton is not really striving for authenticity, it’s just a visual spectacle. In which case, who cares?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,569
    edited December 2020
    Leon said:

    It confuses me because, on the one hand, we are all supposed to be super-aware of race, Black Lives Matter, and all that, and yet here is a series with black Georgian dukes and duchesses and no one mentions their race or colour. So the series is telling us race and colour DON'T matter? So you could have a series about American slavery with whites playing slaves? Or War and Peace set very much in St Petersburg yet entirely cast with Chinese or Inuit actors?

    It is extra confusing because in many ways the series strives hard to be historically accurate - it has high production values, it carefully recreates 1813 Vauxhall Pleasure Gardens (tho I am told the costumery is all over the shop, with bits of Regency mixed with bits of mid-Victorian)

    Race is such a fucked-up subject, and no one knows quite how to handle it: perhaps the series is simply telling us THAT.
    They did with The Hollow Crown casting black actors and actresses in roles such as Edward, 2nd Duke of York and Margaret of Anjou.

    They thought lets cast good actors and actresses in the role and let people deal with it and they did.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617
    Charles said:

    I was more curious on whether the 2 had gone together or separately
    Me too, and how they knew it was dirty, as opposed, to, say, an industrial archaeology trip around the old wheals and flashes.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,668

    Generally, I find this sort of thing irritating.
    It distracts from versimilitude, which is what I crave.

    I hope this doesn’t make me a screaming racist.

    I guess, by the sounds of it though, Bridgerton is not really striving for authenticity, it’s just a visual spectacle. In which case, who cares?
    Who are your favourite Othellos?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,585
    Charles said:

    Management of a London hospital doesn’t like anything that suggests he couldn’t cope?
    If you think Britain is mismanaging Covid, this Guardian thread reveals that three days after vaccinations began in France, they have, so far, immunized..... 100 people.

    That's not a typo. One hundred. 33 people a day. Should have full herd immunity just before the sun turns into a Red Giant, devouring the solar system.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2020/dec/29/coronavirus-live-news-more-countries-alert-suspected-cases-new-uk-covid-variant
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,560
    eek said:

    That the only country doing enough sequencing is the UK
    My point was more that any country that 'got lucky', and chose PCR diagnostic markers similar to the ones we chose, does not need to have done much genetic sequencing to trace the history of Cockney COVID in their own country. And, given the duty to report, the fact nobody has come forward with large numbers of cases, plus the lack of other obvious examples of explosive outbreaks under similar grades of lockdown other than SE England (I think Berlin was mooted last time but I think the timeline of outbreak to lockdown was much more typical).

    I've yet to see good evidence of a major Cockney COVID outbreak elsewhere, and I feel it should be findable, despite other countries playing catch up on generic sequencing,. I've only seen 'its obvious innit' aspersion casting. In this respect, the spotting of a handful of cases doesn't cut it, just as saying we were in the same boat as Italy in late February wouldn't cut it.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,218
    edited December 2020
    Leon said:

    It confuses me because, on the one hand, we are all supposed to be super-aware of race, Black Lives Matter, and all that, and yet here is a series with black Georgian dukes and duchesses and no one mentions their race or colour. So the series is telling us race and colour DON'T matter? So you could have a series about American slavery with whites playing slaves? Or War and Peace set very much in St Petersburg yet entirely cast with Chinese or Inuit actors?

    It is extra confusing because in many ways the series strives hard to be historically accurate - it has high production values, it carefully recreates 1813 Vauxhall Pleasure Gardens (tho I am told the costumery is all over the shop, with bits of Regency mixed with bits of mid-Victorian)

    Race is such a fucked-up subject, and no one knows quite how to handle it: perhaps the series is simply telling us THAT.
    I would say that if the race of the character isn't important to the story, then the race of the actor doesn't matter. You cant have white actors playing slaves in the Deep South, or MLK, but conceivably they could play the role of a black character where their race isn't part of the story... I cant think of one though! So in my eyes, having black Edwardian Londoners doesn't really matter, even if there weren't really any, but it would be weird if their skin colour were mentioned as part of the story
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,423
    edited December 2020
    Leon said:

    It confuses me because, on the one hand, we are all supposed to be super-aware of race, Black Lives Matter, and all that, and yet here is a series with black Georgian dukes and duchesses and no one mentions their race or colour. So the series is telling us race and colour DON'T matter? So you could have a series about American slavery with whites playing slaves? Or War and Peace set very much in St Petersburg yet entirely cast with Chinese or Inuit actors?

    It is extra confusing because in many ways the series strives hard to be historically accurate - it has high production values, it carefully recreates 1813 Vauxhall Pleasure Gardens (tho I am told the costumery is all over the shop, with bits of Regency mixed with bits of mid-Victorian)

    Race is such a fucked-up subject, and no one knows quite how to handle it: perhaps the series is simply telling us THAT.
    If it is all just meant to be a bit of fun I don't think it matters, since authenticity of race won't add anything, but if it is meant to be serious and weighty then a really incongrous element might feel strange. Not that films or tv shows need a warning about lack of historical accuracy, but if it is not the point to comment, and it is meant to be serious, I can understand it causing a few head tilts.

    That Mary Queen of Scots movie was very serious (though David Tennant was hilarious as John Knox) and had a few non-white actors in roles that seems improbable, and it didn't hurt the film exactly, but given its 'this is a serious historical film, no really' feel that it seemed to be going for, it did make me wonder why it went for that approach, and why not go further if the point was 'we don't care about race when casting this film'.

    This is why I prefer fantasy fiction - sure people usually go for a more racist approach nations and races being entirely separate and genuinely distinct even beyond history, if you want a society to be racially diverse or tolerant of race and sexuality and the like, you can, and no one can complain about inaccuracy.

    Hopefully Gal Gadot will still get to play Cleopatra in that movie she is trying to make. Mostly because she is Gal Gadot.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,182
    edited December 2020
    TOPPING said:

    Who are your favourite Othellos?
    Is that supposed to be a gotcha?
    I’ve never seen Othello on screen, and I think the one time I saw it performed live, Othello was played by a black actor.
  • Generally, I find this sort of thing irritating.
    It distracts from versimilitude, which is what I crave.

    I hope this doesn’t make me a screaming racist.

    I guess, by the sounds of it though, Bridgerton is not really striving for authenticity, it’s just a visual spectacle. In which case, who cares?
    I'm amused that you've spelled verisimilitude incorrectly.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,654
    I enjoyed that new comedy the BBC was showing earlier in the year. You had that guy who used to present HIGNFY giving a satirical monologue focusing on current events and then him and a couple of guests would do some improv based on topics thrown out by folk via video link.

    The catch phrases were a bit lame, mind.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Leon said:

    It confuses me because, on the one hand, we are all supposed to be super-aware of race, Black Lives Matter, and all that, and yet here is a series with black Georgian dukes and duchesses and no one mentions their race or colour. So the series is telling us race and colour DON'T matter? So you could have a series about American slavery with whites playing slaves? Or War and Peace set very much in St Petersburg yet entirely cast with Chinese or Inuit actors?

    It is extra confusing because in many ways the series strives hard to be historically accurate - it has high production values, it carefully recreates 1813 Vauxhall Pleasure Gardens (tho I am told the costumery is all over the shop, with bits of Regency mixed with bits of mid-Victorian)

    Race is such a fucked-up subject, and no one knows quite how to handle it: perhaps the series is simply telling us THAT.
    You should have seen how angry racists got when black characters turned up in BBC family entertainment Merlin.

    Their suspension of disbelief in wizards and dragons was totally shattered by black people being knights.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    TOPPING said:

    Again not as per today. There are plenty of NHS staff around to stick needles into.
    I am Stateside, so not NHS-related.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,218

    It does look like the virus started in The Chinese Way.
    Having Christmas dinner with the folks keeps it Running in the Family
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,050
    Can we assume everybody has seen David Copperfield?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,585

    They did with The Hollow Crown casting black actors and actresses in roles such as Edward, 2nd Duke of York and Margaret of Anjou.

    They thought lets cast good actors and actresses in the role and let people deal with it and they did.
    I get that, and I generally approve. But there is a point where it becomes utterly surreal, and maybe morally wrong.

    Not least because there WERE some black people in late Georgian London: but they were imported servants, and freed slaves, and the like. they certainly weren't dukes from ancient families.

    So, to me, it seems to be belittling and trivialising the difficult lived experience of black people in Britain in the early 19th century.



  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,668

    Is that supposed to be a gotcha?
    I’ve never seen Othello on screen, and I think the one time I saw it performed live, Othello was played by a black actor.
    Poor you.

    As one of them famously said: it's acting.

    Anyway off to watch Fargo S2.

    Enjoy.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,423
    isam said:

    I would say that if the race of the character isn't important to the story, then the race of the actor doesn't matter.
    I'd say the same on something like gender. People would (and probably did) disagree, but it never seemed to me that being a man was that central to the character of The Doctor in Doctor Who, nor race. Though as it is a very British show, they'd at least need to have a british accent even though the character is an alien. But what about a character like James Bond? I don't think race matters a jot there, but possibly being a man is a bit more important to the fundamentals of that character.

    Certainly in a lot of modern settings it doesn't seem like it would matter much.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617
    Scott_xP said:

    Can we assume everybody has seen David Copperfield?

    Not me.
  • Leon said:

    If you think Britain is mismanaging Covid, this Guardian thread reveals that three days after vaccinations began in France, they have, so far, immunized..... 100 people.

    That's not a typo. One hundred. 33 people a day. Should have full herd immunity just before the sun turns into a Red Giant, devouring the solar system.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2020/dec/29/coronavirus-live-news-more-countries-alert-suspected-cases-new-uk-covid-variant
    That makes no sense.

    How are they dealing with the fact that there's 970 in a box that all need using in 3.5 days if they've done 100 in 3 days?

    Going to be a busy half a day tomorrow.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,218
    Scott_xP said:

    Can we assume everybody has seen David Copperfield?

    Yes, and Lenny Henry, and Tracey UIlman
  • Leon said:

    If you think Britain is mismanaging Covid, this Guardian thread reveals that three days after vaccinations began in France, they have, so far, immunized..... 100 people.

    That's not a typo. One hundred. 33 people a day. Should have full herd immunity just before the sun turns into a Red Giant, devouring the solar system.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2020/dec/29/coronavirus-live-news-more-countries-alert-suspected-cases-new-uk-covid-variant
    So far, no stories in UK of giving people 5x the dosage....as have been reported elsewhere.

    And Netherlands, can't even be arsed to start until second week of January.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617
    Leon said:

    I get that, and I generally approve. But there is a point where it becomes utterly surreal, and maybe morally wrong.

    Not least because there WERE some black people in late Georgian London: but they were imported servants, and freed slaves, and the like. they certainly weren't dukes from ancient families.

    So, to me, it seems to be belittling and trivialising the difficult lived experience of black people in Britain in the early 19th century.



    Also sailors, but they were also on the margin of London society - literally so also as they would have been concentrated in Docklands. Which reinforces your point.

    Though there were a few imported children from West Indian planter/settler families, middle class and up.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,585
    Carnyx said:

    I learnt not to dismiss apparently weird combinations, after being served rabbit in chocolate sauce with pine nuts in a Skye cottage many yerars ago. (A bitter sauce, actually.)
    Chocolate with meat is a different thing. The Aztecs perfected it. Mole sauce. Can be delish
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,654
    Scott_xP said:
    Toby Shitforbrains will be along in a moment tweeting a 5 year old photo of an empty street in Paraguay to demonstrate that this is fake news.
  • Alistair said:

    You should have seen how angry racists got when black characters turned up in BBC family entertainment Merlin.

    Their suspension of disbelief in wizards and dragons was totally shattered by black people being knights.
    Reminded me of this.


  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,182
    TOPPING said:

    Poor you.

    As one of them famously said: it's acting.

    Anyway off to watch Fargo S2.

    Enjoy.
    That’s a pretty sanctimonious response to quite an interesting subject.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,423
    Alistair said:

    You should have seen how angry racists got when black characters turned up in BBC family entertainment Merlin.

    Their suspension of disbelief in wizards and dragons was totally shattered by black people being knights.
    Presumably on a 'it's supposed to be historically accurate, except for the specific elements of dragons and wizards' basis, but it's not much of a pretext argument. When you're already in fantasy land, getting fussy over anachronisms is futile, and potentially suspicious if it is just that one element.

    As it happens I'm reading a series right now which if they ever did an adaption I think they would need to pay attention to race when casting, as within the story it is quite relevant, yet notably even though all but 1 (relatively minor) character (including the entire cultures where the story takes place) is non-white, the front cover includes a white woman (who cannot be that character due to hair colour).

    That's marketing I guess.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,690
    TOPPING said:

    Useless. Needs to be a delivery service otherwise it's too healthy. They slather them in loveliness (oil?) whereas the supermarket ones are depressingly non oily.
    The oil wouldn't necessarily diminish the healthiness. There's some evidence that it slows the absorption of sugar into the bloodstream, meaning a lower insulin spike. The pizza itself is the problem. Same with pasta. So if you're going to eat those things (and why not from time to time) douse away I say.
  • Re TTSS

    Am I the only person to be amused by the name under which Ricki Tarr rampages around SE Asia ?

    Thomas.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,218
    kle4 said:

    I'd say the same on something like gender. People would (and probably did) disagree, but it never seemed to me that being a man was that central to the character of The Doctor in Doctor Who, nor race. Though as it is a very British show, they'd at least need to have a british accent even though the character is an alien. But what about a character like James Bond? I don't think race matters a jot there, but possibly being a man is a bit more important to the fundamentals of that character.

    Certainly in a lot of modern settings it doesn't seem like it would matter much.
    I dont really know a lot about James Bond, except that the extreme left at Brighton Uni HATE the character! But cant see how it would make much difference what race he was.

    The difference is that a lot of black characters in majority white films are defined by their race, so only black actors can play them, whereas the same isnt true for the white characters, so it doesnt about matter the race of the actor. Ypu cant really limit the job opportunities of non white actors by only allowing them to play 20th or 21st Century characters, or oppressed ones
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    isam said:

    I would say that if the race of the character isn't important to the story, then the race of the actor doesn't matter. You cant have white actors playing slaves in the Deep South, or MLK, but conceivably they could play the role of a black character where their race isn't part of the story... I cant think of one though! So in my eyes, having black Edwardian Londoners doesn't really matter, even if there weren't really any, but it would be weird if their skin colour were mentioned as part of the story
    Spot on.

    Like you I can't think of a "story involving a black person where their race isn't relevant", I presume that is because we are a white-default country so any story/incident/history we know involving a black person is _beacuse_ it involves a black person interacting with white people in exceptional circumstances.

    If we all lived in Nigeria I'm sure we'd be struggling to think of a story involving a white person where their whitness wasn't vitally important to the situation.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,423

    Reminded me of this.


    I've often wondered if all the medieval european artists, and people who viewed their work, genuinely thought it the case that Jesus was not just white but very pale, or if they considered it likely he was not but they used people as existed around them as templates.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,452
    edited December 2020
    Leon said:

    Chocolate with meat is a different thing. The Aztecs perfected it. Mole sauce. Can be delish
    I've had venison with dark chocolate sauce. On Mull. Maybe it's just a weird Scottish isles thing, where they are happy to improvise with stuff when they have run out of ingredients and going for the right thing is a faff.

    Although Michael Wignall had no such excuse for his eel with white chocolate. Other than culinary brilliance.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,654

    Reminded me of this.


    Proof that the Holy Spirit comes from Sweden?
  • Toby Shitforbrains will be along in a moment tweeting a 5 year old photo of an empty street in Paraguay to demonstrate that this is fake news.
    https://twitter.com/jamesdoleman/status/1344008315639095296?s=21
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,452
    Carnyx said:

    Also sailors, but they were also on the margin of London society - literally so also as they would have been concentrated in Docklands. Which reinforces your point.

    Though there were a few imported children from West Indian planter/settler families, middle class and up.
    There were several gifted musicians too, who played in orchestras.
  • kle4 said:

    If it is all just meant to be a bit of fun I don't think it matters, since authenticity of race won't add anything, but if it is meant to be serious and weighty then a really incongrous element might feel strange. Not that films or tv shows need a warning about lack of historical accuracy, but if it is not the point to comment, and it is meant to be serious, I can understand it causing a few head tilts.

    That Mary Queen of Scots movie was very serious (though David Tennant was hilarious as John Knox) and had a few non-white actors in roles that seems improbable, and it didn't hurt the film exactly, but given its 'this is a serious historical film, no really' feel that it seemed to be going for, it did make me wonder why it went for that approach, and why not go further if the point was 'we don't care about race when casting this film'.

    This is why I prefer fantasy fiction - sure people usually go for a more racist approach nations and races being entirely separate and genuinely distinct even beyond history, if you want a society to be racially diverse or tolerant of race and sexuality and the like, you can, and no one can complain about inaccuracy.

    Hopefully Gal Gadot will still get to play Cleopatra in that movie she is trying to make. Mostly because she is Gal Gadot.
    There is no reason besides ignorance and antisemitism for Gal Gadot not to play Cleopatra.
This discussion has been closed.