That’s whose prerogative? – politicalbetting.com

HYUFD said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

HYUFD said:

https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1335147543899074560?s=20

https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1335169839544082432?s=20

Four years on, he's still fighting a war.

It's over Andrew.

Put your efforts into something more constructive.

He does have a point on No Deal though, Brexit to be viable longer term needs a Deal, whether Canada style or Norway style or whatever, no trade deal at all will embolden Remainers in that it will leave Brexit support confined to the diehards, there would almost certainly be a big majority in the polls for returning to the EU next year if the only alternative Brexiteers can produce is No Deal with our largest export destination by January

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Beibheirli_C said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Breaking

Scottish Fishing Federation urges PM to refuse bad deal for fishing industry

I am reminded of the miners in the 80s striking and closing pits in order to keep coal production going. Or the car unions in the 70s striking and stopping car production in order to keep car plants going.

There is a difference

Those industries were dying, the fishing industry is not and hence the battle for fish.

The Scots fishermen have a right to protect their industry

HYUFD said:

Cicero said:

HYUFD said:

kle4 said:

OldKingCole said:

noneoftheabove said:

FF43 said:

noneoftheabove said:

What happens to small to medium sized countries trading with much bigger ones:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-55167882

China is an interesting diplomatic challenge for the UK. Brexit allows the UK to do something different with China from the EU. It's about the only area where a buccaneering Britain could get a significant advantage. So far the UK has become more, not less, hostile to China for some good reasons. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

China was previously constrained by a Western alliance across the US-EU, it might not have felt that way at the time, but they would have gone faster and further without said alliance. With Trumpism and Brexit weakening that alliance heavily China will be far more aggressive internationally and abide by its own values not Western norms. It may well be the biggest cost of Brexit.

I suspect dealing with China is going to be a problem for Britain. This country has not, historically, had a good relationship with China, and indeed in the mid and late the 19thC threw it's weight about when dealing with what it apparently arrogantly perceived to be a failing and inferior state. Now that state, rejuvenated, is neither weak nor failing and I fear that the saying about revenge applies.

All nations deal or dealt arrogantly with nations less powerful than them. China certainly has in the past and does now, and nurses grievances from that time as a strategy, but do we think theyd be less inclined to throw their weight around if we'd been nicer back then? No, that just gives them flimsy pretext, but it's as much a joke as when we talk about the Treaty of Troyes as a reason to treat the French bad, only they pretend it's not a joke. China will do what it will do, but I highly doubt 19th C actions play any genuine part of their calculations.

So yes itll be a problem for us, but not really for that reason. Really we've had little historical relations with them at all compared to their neighbours.

Indeed, now Hong Kong is no longer a British Colony our relationships with China are not that important compared to those with the EU, it is over the other side of the world after all and only 3% of our exports go to China.

Even if we want to be global Britain we must remember France is our nearest continental neighbour just across the channel, a key NATO ally and a key member of the EU to whom we still sell 48% of our exports, this Macron spat over fishing needs to be resolved for both our sakes

The problem is that Redwood et al do not wish this fundamental reality to be true. They actively wish to redirect our trade away from the EU. which they consider to be a strategic competitor, not an ally. They are already discussing alliances with Russia, which they consider to be an historic partner, rather than a neo-fascist kleptostate. They are trapped in WWII thinking and despite the loss of Empire and all the rest of it (which, BTW they think CANZUK would partly restore) they believe that the British manifest destiny is to sit at the right hand of the US and decree the judgement of nations, despite having no means to enforce this. It is stupid. It is ignorant and arrogant. Most of all it is hubris.

Meanwhile the EU has plenty of means to disrupt the gadfly, up to and including supporting the break up of the UK. Canada, Australia and New Zealand now look to indigenous traditions at least as much to the tarnished Imperial past. So the fact is that although these people would actively prefer no deal, since any deal, by definition, would be a betrayal of our manifest global destiny, they are doomed to failure. The USA of course will continue the pressure that they have exerted over most of the past century: "we took their empire, they have yet to find a role".

It goes without saying that none of these deluded people are in business, and very few have studied economics or history. This circle of delusion will evaporate when the long predicted economic mess unfolds precisely as "project fear" foretold. Over the course of the next decade the current UK will revert to some kind of Europeanism, whether as one -humiliated- state or as several. Personally the judgement of history on these fools will be severe- and rightly so.

To be fair to Redwood he has a history phd and finance experience but yes as Blair correctly said last week we cannot ignore Europe even if we wanted too, in the 21st century there will be 3 superpowers, China, the US and maybe India who will largely look after their own interests, then there will be taller nations like Indonesia and Brazil and Russia and we will be another medium power on the next rung down. We will have to work with our European allies to make our collective voice heard on the world stage even outside the EU and it will remain our largest single export destination

MaxPB said:

rottenborough said:

Hold on. Johnson at Chequers? Are you allowed to visit your second home under the Tier system? Seem to recall NYorks police are checking number plates for precisely this kind of unnecessary weekend trip.

https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1335145681351225344

Do military helicopters have number plates? Nice loophole for Boris.

Stark_Dawning said:

The sooner Boris Johnson is a mere footnote in the history books the better. Since he's been around there's been nothing but trouble.

Slackbladder said:

HYUFD said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

HYUFD said:

https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1335147543899074560?s=20

https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1335169839544082432?s=20

Four years on, he's still fighting a war.

It's over Andrew.

Put your efforts into something more constructive.

He does have a point on No Deal though, Brexit to be viable longer term needs a Deal, whether Canada style or Norway style or whatever, no trade deal at all will embolden Remainers in that it will leave Brexit support confined to the diehards, there would almost certainly be a big majority in the polls for returning to the EU next year if the only alternative Brexiteers can produce is No Deal with our largest export destination by January

Anyone want any odds on the chances of Labour explicitly having 'we will reapply for membership of the EU' in their manifesto?

malcolmg said:

HYUFD said:

Cicero said:

HYUFD said:

kle4 said:

OldKingCole said:

noneoftheabove said:

FF43 said:

noneoftheabove said:

What happens to small to medium sized countries trading with much bigger ones:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-55167882

China is an interesting diplomatic challenge for the UK. Brexit allows the UK to do something different with China from the EU. It's about the only area where a buccaneering Britain could get a significant advantage. So far the UK has become more, not less, hostile to China for some good reasons. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

China was previously constrained by a Western alliance across the US-EU, it might not have felt that way at the time, but they would have gone faster and further without said alliance. With Trumpism and Brexit weakening that alliance heavily China will be far more aggressive internationally and abide by its own values not Western norms. It may well be the biggest cost of Brexit.

I suspect dealing with China is going to be a problem for Britain. This country has not, historically, had a good relationship with China, and indeed in the mid and late the 19thC threw it's weight about when dealing with what it apparently arrogantly perceived to be a failing and inferior state. Now that state, rejuvenated, is neither weak nor failing and I fear that the saying about revenge applies.

All nations deal or dealt arrogantly with nations less powerful than them. China certainly has in the past and does now, and nurses grievances from that time as a strategy, but do we think theyd be less inclined to throw their weight around if we'd been nicer back then? No, that just gives them flimsy pretext, but it's as much a joke as when we talk about the Treaty of Troyes as a reason to treat the French bad, only they pretend it's not a joke. China will do what it will do, but I highly doubt 19th C actions play any genuine part of their calculations.

So yes itll be a problem for us, but not really for that reason. Really we've had little historical relations with them at all compared to their neighbours.

Indeed, now Hong Kong is no longer a British Colony our relationships with China are not that important compared to those with the EU, it is over the other side of the world after all and only 3% of our exports go to China.

Even if we want to be global Britain we must remember France is our nearest continental neighbour just across the channel, a key NATO ally and a key member of the EU to whom we still sell 48% of our exports, this Macron spat over fishing needs to be resolved for both our sakes

The problem is that Redwood et al do not wish this fundamental reality to be true. They actively wish to redirect our trade away from the EU. which they consider to be a strategic competitor, not an ally. They are already discussing alliances with Russia, which they consider to be an historic partner, rather than a neo-fascist kleptostate. They are trapped in WWII thinking and despite the loss of Empire and all the rest of it (which, BTW they think CANZUK would partly restore) they believe that the British manifest destiny is to sit at the right hand of the US and decree the judgement of nations, despite having no means to enforce this. It is stupid. It is ignorant and arrogant. Most of all it is hubris.

Meanwhile the EU has plenty of means to disrupt the gadfly, up to and including supporting the break up of the UK. Canada, Australia and New Zealand now look to indigenous traditions at least as much to the tarnished Imperial past. So the fact is that although these people would actively prefer no deal, since any deal, by definition, would be a betrayal of our manifest global destiny, they are doomed to failure. The USA of course will continue the pressure that they have exerted over most of the past century: "we took their empire, they have yet to find a role".

It goes without saying that none of these deluded people are in business, and very few have studied economics or history. This circle of delusion will evaporate when the long predicted economic mess unfolds precisely as "project fear" foretold. Over the course of the next decade the current UK will revert to some kind of Europeanism, whether as one -humiliated- state or as several. Personally the judgement of history on these fools will be severe- and rightly so.

To be fair to Redwood he has a history phd and finance experience but yes as Blair correctly said last week we cannot ignore Europe even if we wanted too, in the 21st century there will be 3 superpowers, China, the US and maybe India who will largely look after their own interests, then there will be taller nations like Indonesia and Brazil and Russia and we will be another medium power on the next rung down. We will have to work with our European allies to make our collective voice heard on the world stage even outside the EU and it will remain our largest single export destination

Just shows having a degree does not make you intelligent. The man is a raving loony , albeit he can read books and pass exams.
How these moronic pygmies get to where they are is amazing.

felix said:

CarlottaVance said:

The EU worries that the UK might somehow cheat; the UK fears the EU wants to tie it down and dictate its rules. It’s asking a lot of any deal to salve these kinds of concerns. But leaders on both sides of these negotiations need to take a hard-headed look at the underlying issues and their respective interests, and recognise that a deal would at least allow us to start to address differences, some of which have built up over a long time. We build, or rebuild, trust by finding ways of working together, not by turning our backs.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/brexit-the-uk-and-eu-both-need-to-put-aside-emotion-and-cut-a-deal-1.4425580#.X8iZxDc3Wlg.twitter

It's been clear for some time that Ireland are very keen for practical to do a deal. Also clear that the French for other reasons entirely are much less keen.

TheWhiteRabbit said:

HYUFD said:

https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1335147543899074560?s=20

https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1335169839544082432?s=20

Four years on, he's still fighting a war.

It's over Andrew.

Put your efforts into something more constructive.

HYUFD said:

CarlottaVance said:

HYUFD said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

HYUFD said:

https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1335147543899074560?s=20

https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1335169839544082432?s=20

Four years on, he's still fighting a war.

It's over Andrew.

Put your efforts into something more constructive.

there would almost certainly be a big majority in the polls for returning to the EU next year if the only alternative Brexiteers can produce is No Deal with our largest export destination by January

Doubt it. If there is a serious mess there will be plenty of blame to spread around "Why are the French imposing checks when we're not, why are we queuing with "Others" when EU visitors use our e-gates at passport control (that won't last long) and so forth. If there's a mess it will be on both sides of the channel.

Over 60% of voters think a No Deal Brexit would be bad for Britain according to a poll last month, only 37% think it would be a good outcome. Even if every No Deal Brexit supporter voted Tory in 2024 then the Tory voteshare would still be 6% down on 2019 and the Tories would almost certainly lose power

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/brexit-news/westminster-news/brexit-backing-areas-oppose-no-deal-scenario-poll-finds-3269920

rottenborough said:

Hold on. Johnson at Chequers? Are you allowed to visit your second home under the Tier system? Seem to recall NYorks police are checking number plates for precisely this kind of unnecessary weekend trip.

https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1335145681351225344

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/JuliaHB1/status/1335163670251368448

felix said:

483 deaths from Covid in Germany today - second highest the worst just a few days ago. Ominous signs in several Spanish Autonomous Communities of cases starting to tick upwards again even before the Xmas relaxation period starts - with no significant vaccination programme much before March.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

malcolmg said:

Beibheirli_C said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Breaking

Scottish Fishing Federation urges PM to refuse bad deal for fishing industry

I am reminded of the miners in the 80s striking and closing pits in order to keep coal production going. Or the car unions in the 70s striking and stopping car production in order to keep car plants going.

That will be the Tory East Coast Fishing Federation Millionaires then I presume.

In my Scottish Fishing Family the vast majority are just hard working honest fishermen involved in a perilous occupation

CarlottaVance said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MaxPB said:

Beibheirli_C said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/JuliaHB1/status/1335163670251368448

From a business point of view, what else can they do? Keg beer only lasts six weeks. Why buy stock that costs a lot and you might not be able to sell? As for food stock...

Hospitality is not really very switch-on-and-off-able...

But PB experts told me that it was and the strategy of two weeks of "circuit break" every four weeks was a great idea. Amazingly these PB experts have gone quiet after the fiasco that was the Wales circuit breaker.

Surely is it obvious that "circuit-breakers" do nothing to solve the problem? At the end of each circuit-break the virus is still there.

We do need effective mitigation strategies and I think that you and I had some discussion about that some time back, but circuit breakers are not the answer.

All "Circuit breaks" do is buy you some limited time to DO something, like, oh I dunno, fix track & trace, secure the border quarantine system......not much appears to have been done by any of the UK administrations (or European ones, for that matter).

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Stark_Dawning said:

The sooner Boris Johnson is a mere footnote in the history books the better. Since he's been around there's been nothing but trouble.

He has many faults but he cannot be blamed for covid

YBarddCwsc said:

malcolmg said:

Mexicanpete said:

No_Offence_Alan said:

Of course, if a Corbyn government was repealing the FTPA, the Tory media would be screaming about prioritising obscure constitutional matters in the first year of a Parliament, when hundreds are dying from COVID daily.

The current incumbents of Downing Street are not alone. Nippy sees the Pandemic as an aligning star to get Scottish Independence over the line.

Bollox, the total opposite in fact.

Yes I think MalcomG is right.

I think Sturgeon has been especially good at communicating the terrifying & sombre responsibility of politicians who have to take life-costing public policy decisions from a position of ignorance (we still know little about the disease). I don't doubt that Sturgeon bitterly regrets the loss of every life: every Scottish life, every British life, every life.

(Boris' flippancy and jokiness means he has been especially bad at this).

Sturgeon however has made mistakes -- she has made nearly as many as Boris. She just hadn't paid for them in the polls (much like Drakeford, yet).

It will be interesting -- once this is all over -- to look at if there is any statistically significant difference between Scotland, England, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Republic. My guess is there may be, though it does need a proper analysis.

For the moment, let's recall population density is an important factor in the transmission. Scotland has the lowest population density of England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland -- its population density is much lower than even Wales, let alone England. On those (admittedly crude) grounds alone, I'd expect Scotland to do quite a bit better than England.

We should remember that all the countries in Western Europe bar Germany & Norway have done pretty darned badly. We are arguing about the degree of badness. It is especially shaming because the UK is scientifically -- erm -- world beating. We should have done way, way better.

another_richard said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/JuliaHB1/status/1335163670251368448

Her tweets are becoming increasingly shrill.

Slackbladder said:

HYUFD said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

HYUFD said:

https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1335147543899074560?s=20

https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1335169839544082432?s=20

Four years on, he's still fighting a war.

It's over Andrew.

Put your efforts into something more constructive.

He does have a point on No Deal though, Brexit to be viable longer term needs a Deal, whether Canada style or Norway style or whatever, no trade deal at all will embolden Remainers in that it will leave Brexit support confined to the diehards, there would almost certainly be a big majority in the polls for returning to the EU next year if the only alternative Brexiteers can produce is No Deal with our largest export destination by January

Anyone want any odds on the chances of Labour explicitly having 'we will reapply for membership of the EU' in their manifesto?

Dura_Ace said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Stark_Dawning said:

The sooner Boris Johnson is a mere footnote in the history books the better. Since he's been around there's been nothing but trouble.

He has many faults but he cannot be blamed for covid

He can be blamed for the response which has usually been late, confusing and discredited in the eyes of the public because he decided to die on a cross for Cummo.

https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1212679425629859840

60,000 dead.

FF43 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

FF43 said:

Scott_xP said:

FF43 said:

Fishing is about the only win from Brexit.

It's not though.

Catching fish you can't sell is not a win

Correct. Should always be precise. Fishing quotas is a win. Also how you allocate those quotas is not a win. And fishing quotas don't benefit inshore fishing or fish production. Nevertheless it is a win, however small, and just about the only one. The UK should concede on LPF and governance and maximise their fisheries "win"

Without a win in fish it will be no deal sadly

Given the whole thing is a nonsense anyway, I think that's OK. But the UK will need to concede on LPF and governance and drop the treaty breaches.

YBarddCwsc said:

malcolmg said:

Mexicanpete said:

No_Offence_Alan said:

Of course, if a Corbyn government was repealing the FTPA, the Tory media would be screaming about prioritising obscure constitutional matters in the first year of a Parliament, when hundreds are dying from COVID daily.

The current incumbents of Downing Street are not alone. Nippy sees the Pandemic as an aligning star to get Scottish Independence over the line.

Bollox, the total opposite in fact.

Yes I think MalcomG is right.

I think Sturgeon has been especially good at communicating the terrifying & sombre responsibility of politicians who have to take life-costing public policy decisions from a position of ignorance (we still know little about the disease). I don't doubt that Sturgeon bitterly regrets the loss of every life: every Scottish life, every British life, every life.

(Boris' flippancy and jokiness means he has been especially bad at this).

Sturgeon however has made mistakes -- she has made nearly as many as Boris. She just hadn't paid for them in the polls (much like Drakeford, yet).

It will be interesting -- once this is all over -- to look to see if there is any statistically significant difference between Scotland, England, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Republic. My guess is there may be, though it does need a proper analysis.

For the moment, let's recall population density is an important factor in the transmission. Scotland has the lowest population density of England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland -- its population density is much lower than even Wales, let alone England. On those (admittedly crude) grounds alone, I'd expect Scotland to do quite a bit better than England.

We should remember that all the countries in Western Europe bar Germany & Norway have done pretty darned badly. We are arguing about the degree of badness. It is especially shaming because the UK is scientifically -- erm -- world beating. We should have done way, way better.

FF43 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

FF43 said:

Scott_xP said:

FF43 said:

Fishing is about the only win from Brexit.

It's not though.

Catching fish you can't sell is not a win

Correct. Should always be precise. Fishing quotas is a win. Also how you allocate those quotas is not a win. And fishing quotas don't benefit inshore fishing or fish production. Nevertheless it is a win, however small, and just about the only one. The UK should concede on LPF and governance and maximise their fisheries "win"

Without a win in fish it will be no deal sadly

Given the whole thing is a nonsense anyway, I think that's OK. But the UK will need to concede on LPF and governance and drop the treaty breaches.

YBarddCwsc said:

malcolmg said:

Mexicanpete said:

No_Offence_Alan said:

Of course, if a Corbyn government was repealing the FTPA, the Tory media would be screaming about prioritising obscure constitutional matters in the first year of a Parliament, when hundreds are dying from COVID daily.

The current incumbents of Downing Street are not alone. Nippy sees the Pandemic as an aligning star to get Scottish Independence over the line.

Bollox, the total opposite in fact.

For the moment, let's recall population density is an important factor in the transmission. Scotland has the lowest population density of England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland -- its population density is much lower than even Wales, let alone England. On those (admittedly crude) grounds alone, I'd expect Scotland to do quite a bit better than England.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

malcolmg said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

malcolmg said:

Beibheirli_C said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Breaking

Scottish Fishing Federation urges PM to refuse bad deal for fishing industry

I am reminded of the miners in the 80s striking and closing pits in order to keep coal production going. Or the car unions in the 70s striking and stopping car production in order to keep car plants going.

That will be the Tory East Coast Fishing Federation Millionaires then I presume.

In my Scottish Fishing Family the vast majority are just hard working honest fishermen involved in a perilous occupation

G , I am pretty sure this is the mob where about 5 owners have all the boats and employ foreigners on low wages, all rich paid up Tories. I may be wrong as no expert but you see the same few Tory faces on whining about fishing up here, the west coast small boat boys never get a look in.

You do not do your kinsman justice by that observation

Throughout my near 60 years association with my Scottish Fishing Family and community they have been against not only joining the EU but also great resentment over the way the CFP worked

60 years ago each and every one of them was an honest hard working person doing a dangerous job and providing for their families and community and of course voting Labour. Of those left at sea today the same applies but Labour is over and they vote SNP though many do not support independence

It is to be hoped sense prevails but I would expect the fishermen to support no deal if that is what it takes

MarqueeMark said:

Dura_Ace said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Stark_Dawning said:

The sooner Boris Johnson is a mere footnote in the history books the better. Since he's been around there's been nothing but trouble.

He has many faults but he cannot be blamed for covid

He can be blamed for the response which has usually been late, confusing and discredited in the eyes of the public because he decided to die on a cross for Cummo.

https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1212679425629859840

60,000 dead.

1918, after the end of the Great War1 you could have reasonably said "1919 is going to be a great year for the UK."

1919, 228,000 dead from the Spanish flu.

Shit happens, despite the hopes of politicians.

Foxy said:

FF43 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

FF43 said:

Scott_xP said:

FF43 said:

Fishing is about the only win from Brexit.

It's not though.

Catching fish you can't sell is not a win

Correct. Should always be precise. Fishing quotas is a win. Also how you allocate those quotas is not a win. And fishing quotas don't benefit inshore fishing or fish production. Nevertheless it is a win, however small, and just about the only one. The UK should concede on LPF and governance and maximise their fisheries "win"

Without a win in fish it will be no deal sadly

Given the whole thing is a nonsense anyway, I think that's OK. But the UK will need to concede on LPF and governance and drop the treaty breaches.

If the treaty breaches are in the Internal Market bill on Monday as promised, then it is hard to not see the end of negotiations. Such a breach of trust and law makes an agreement untenable.

SouthamObserver said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

malcolmg said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

malcolmg said:

Beibheirli_C said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Breaking

Scottish Fishing Federation urges PM to refuse bad deal for fishing industry

I am reminded of the miners in the 80s striking and closing pits in order to keep coal production going. Or the car unions in the 70s striking and stopping car production in order to keep car plants going.

That will be the Tory East Coast Fishing Federation Millionaires then I presume.

In my Scottish Fishing Family the vast majority are just hard working honest fishermen involved in a perilous occupation

G , I am pretty sure this is the mob where about 5 owners have all the boats and employ foreigners on low wages, all rich paid up Tories. I may be wrong as no expert but you see the same few Tory faces on whining about fishing up here, the west coast small boat boys never get a look in.

You do not do your kinsman justice by that observation

Throughout my near 60 years association with my Scottish Fishing Family and community they have been against not only joining the EU but also great resentment over the way the CFP worked

60 years ago each and every one of them was an honest hard working person doing a dangerous job and providing for their families and community and of course voting Labour. Of those left at sea today the same applies but Labour is over and they vote SNP though many do not support independence

It is to be hoped sense prevails but I would expect the fishermen to support no deal if that is what it takes

Weren't most of the seats that are home to the Scottish fishing industry solidly Tory or Liberal 60 years ago?

ydoethur said:

I suppose the question really is do we trust judges more than politicians?

Well, I despise politicians. Particularly this lot.

But I trust judges far less. One judge, making bizarre rulings on alleged blackmail, very nearly created a situation where a court had created a privacy law in defiance of parliament (and but for John Hemming, probably would have succeeded) merely because he had a personal horror of seeing salacious details of people’s private lives in the papers.

Similarly, the Supreme Court has made some very strange rulings in the last few years, notably on prorogation, and it’s difficult to escape the sense that they did so in order to feel important and to annoy a government they didn’t like.

If I don’t have the power to kick out dodgy judges, I don’t want them making laws on my behalf. At least with Parliament I can vote the bastards out if they annoy me.

(In the US it’s a little different, as the SOCTUS can strike down laws, rather than create them.)

YBarddCwsc said:

Theuniondivvie said:

YBarddCwsc said:

malcolmg said:

Mexicanpete said:

No_Offence_Alan said:

Of course, if a Corbyn government was repealing the FTPA, the Tory media would be screaming about prioritising obscure constitutional matters in the first year of a Parliament, when hundreds are dying from COVID daily.

The current incumbents of Downing Street are not alone. Nippy sees the Pandemic as an aligning star to get Scottish Independence over the line.

Bollox, the total opposite in fact.

Yes I think MalcomG is right.

I think Sturgeon has been especially good at communicating the terrifying & sombre responsibility of politicians who have to take life-costing public policy decisions from a position of ignorance (we still know little about the disease). I don't doubt that Sturgeon bitterly regrets the loss of every life: every Scottish life, every British life, every life.

(Boris' flippancy and jokiness means he has been especially bad at this).

Sturgeon however has made mistakes -- she has made nearly as many as Boris. She just hadn't paid for them in the polls (much like Drakeford, yet).

It will be interesting -- once this is all over -- to look to see if there is any statistically significant difference between Scotland, England, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Republic. My guess is there may be, though it does need a proper analysis.

For the moment, let's recall population density is an important factor in the transmission. Scotland has the lowest population density of England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland -- its population density is much lower than even Wales, let alone England. On those (admittedly crude) grounds alone, I'd expect Scotland to do quite a bit better than England.

We should remember that all the countries in Western Europe bar Germany & Norway have done pretty darned badly. We are arguing about the degree of badness. It is especially shaming because the UK is scientifically -- erm -- world beating. We should have done way, way better.

I'm not a fan of the Covid nationalism that not infrequently breaks out on here, but Scotland has done a 'bit' better (or less badly if you'd prefer); if these numbers were reversed you can be sure we'd never hear the end of it.

'Scotland has had 3 848 confirmed Covid deaths or 704 per million putting her in 22nd place. England with 52 601 deaths or 935 per million would be in 5th place and Wales with 2 638 or 837 per milliom would be in 11th place, just slightly worse than the USA. Northern Ireland with 542 would be way down the list.

ONS and NRS data tabulated by: https://www.travellingtabby.com/uk-coronavirus-tracker/'

https://tinyurl.com/yxhhl3q4

I'm not a fan of COVID nationalism either -- other than as an indication of which policies pursued by the various politicians have actually worked.

I think the table you linked to is interesting, but part of the story. To properly compare Scotland with England or Wales, I think you would want to compare e.g., regions of similar population density/demographics e.g., Central Belt with NE England or South Wales valleys. And the maybe with some equivalent regions on the continent.

I think I agree with David Spiegalhalter that the comparison is not easy, but you don't need to do lots of clever statistics to see Germany has done well.

"If these numbers were reversed you can be sure we'd never hear the end of it"

I agree with that. World Cup 1966, Olympics, Johnny Wilkinson's drop goal, and the Covid Tables would then skip easily off the English politician's tongue.😁

MaxPB said:

Theuniondivvie said:

YBarddCwsc said:

malcolmg said:

Mexicanpete said:

No_Offence_Alan said:

Of course, if a Corbyn government was repealing the FTPA, the Tory media would be screaming about prioritising obscure constitutional matters in the first year of a Parliament, when hundreds are dying from COVID daily.

The current incumbents of Downing Street are not alone. Nippy sees the Pandemic as an aligning star to get Scottish Independence over the line.

Bollox, the total opposite in fact.

Yes I think MalcomG is right.

I think Sturgeon has been especially good at communicating the terrifying & sombre responsibility of politicians who have to take life-costing public policy decisions from a position of ignorance (we still know little about the disease). I don't doubt that Sturgeon bitterly regrets the loss of every life: every Scottish life, every British life, every life.

(Boris' flippancy and jokiness means he has been especially bad at this).

Sturgeon however has made mistakes -- she has made nearly as many as Boris. She just hadn't paid for them in the polls (much like Drakeford, yet).

It will be interesting -- once this is all over -- to look to see if there is any statistically significant difference between Scotland, England, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Republic. My guess is there may be, though it does need a proper analysis.

For the moment, let's recall population density is an important factor in the transmission. Scotland has the lowest population density of England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland -- its population density is much lower than even Wales, let alone England. On those (admittedly crude) grounds alone, I'd expect Scotland to do quite a bit better than England.

We should remember that all the countries in Western Europe bar Germany & Norway have done pretty darned badly. We are arguing about the degree of badness. It is especially shaming because the UK is scientifically -- erm -- world beating. We should have done way, way better.

I'm not a fan of the Covid nationalism that not infrequently breaks out on here, but Scotland has done a 'bit' better (or less badly if you'd prefer); if these numbers were reversed you can be sure we'd never hear the end of it.

'Scotland has had 3 848 confirmed Covid deaths or 704 per million putting her in 22nd place. England with 52 601 deaths or 935 per million would be in 5th place and Wales with 2 638 or 837 per milliom would be in 11th place, just slightly worse than the USA. Northern Ireland with 542 would be way down the list.

ONS and NRS data tabulated by: https://www.travellingtabby.com/uk-coronavirus-tracker/'

https://tinyurl.com/yxhhl3q4

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths

COVID on the death certificate at the bottom of the page. The numbers are all basically the same for Wales, Scotland and England.

solarflare said:

CarlottaVance said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MaxPB said:

Beibheirli_C said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/JuliaHB1/status/1335163670251368448

From a business point of view, what else can they do? Keg beer only lasts six weeks. Why buy stock that costs a lot and you might not be able to sell? As for food stock...

Hospitality is not really very switch-on-and-off-able...

But PB experts told me that it was and the strategy of two weeks of "circuit break" every four weeks was a great idea. Amazingly these PB experts have gone quiet after the fiasco that was the Wales circuit breaker.

Surely is it obvious that "circuit-breakers" do nothing to solve the problem? At the end of each circuit-break the virus is still there.

We do need effective mitigation strategies and I think that you and I had some discussion about that some time back, but circuit breakers are not the answer.

All "Circuit breaks" do is buy you some limited time to DO something, like, oh I dunno, fix track & trace, secure the border quarantine system......not much appears to have been done by any of the UK administrations (or European ones, for that matter).

Or, as it's turned out by more luck than judgement, stall for time for the vaccine.

Got away with it largely because of the speed of that, but couldn't have held out for another two or three years, say.

Gaussian said:

another_richard said:

Theuniondivvie said:

YBarddCwsc said:

malcolmg said:

Mexicanpete said:

No_Offence_Alan said:

Of course, if a Corbyn government was repealing the FTPA, the Tory media would be screaming about prioritising obscure constitutional matters in the first year of a Parliament, when hundreds are dying from COVID daily.

The current incumbents of Downing Street are not alone. Nippy sees the Pandemic as an aligning star to get Scottish Independence over the line.

Bollox, the total opposite in fact.

Yes I think MalcomG is right.

I think Sturgeon has been especially good at communicating the terrifying & sombre responsibility of politicians who have to take life-costing public policy decisions from a position of ignorance (we still know little about the disease). I don't doubt that Sturgeon bitterly regrets the loss of every life: every Scottish life, every British life, every life.

(Boris' flippancy and jokiness means he has been especially bad at this).

Sturgeon however has made mistakes -- she has made nearly as many as Boris. She just hadn't paid for them in the polls (much like Drakeford, yet).

It will be interesting -- once this is all over -- to look to see if there is any statistically significant difference between Scotland, England, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Republic. My guess is there may be, though it does need a proper analysis.

For the moment, let's recall population density is an important factor in the transmission. Scotland has the lowest population density of England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland -- its population density is much lower than even Wales, let alone England. On those (admittedly crude) grounds alone, I'd expect Scotland to do quite a bit better than England.

We should remember that all the countries in Western Europe bar Germany & Norway have done pretty darned badly. We are arguing about the degree of badness. It is especially shaming because the UK is scientifically -- erm -- world beating. We should have done way, way better.

I'm not a fan of the Covid nationalism that not infrequently breaks out on here, but Scotland has done a 'bit' better (or less badly if you'd prefer); if these numbers were reversed you can be sure we'd never hear the end of it.

'Scotland has had 3 848 confirmed Covid deaths or 704 per million putting her in 22nd place. England with 52 601 deaths or 935 per million would be in 5th place and Wales with 2 638 or 837 per milliom would be in 11th place, just slightly worse than the USA. Northern Ireland with 542 would be way down the list.

ONS and NRS data tabulated by: https://www.travellingtabby.com/uk-coronavirus-tracker/'

https://tinyurl.com/yxhhl3q4

I suspect that luck was the major factor in how countries performed in the spring.

Just locking down a week earlier would have halved the number of deaths. Italy locked down two weeks before the UK (and much of the rest Europe to be fair), and there was no good reason to wait until cases had reached similar levels here.

Philip_Thompson said:

malcolmg said:

Philip_Thompson said:

rottenborough said:

Hold on. Johnson at Chequers? Are you allowed to visit your second home under the Tier system? Seem to recall NYorks police are checking number plates for precisely this kind of unnecessary weekend trip.

https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1335145681351225344

I'm not sure for social purposes, I think so though it's not recommended for Tier 3 from memory.

But he's hosting and negotiating with Von Der Leyen, that would quite clearly be work related and work meetings are definitely allowed under even Tier 3.

Is making a phone call similar to testing your eyes

If it's work related the government don't decree which office you need to work in.

Sandpit said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Foxy said:

FF43 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

FF43 said:

Scott_xP said:

FF43 said:

Fishing is about the only win from Brexit.

It's not though.

Catching fish you can't sell is not a win

Correct. Should always be precise. Fishing quotas is a win. Also how you allocate those quotas is not a win. And fishing quotas don't benefit inshore fishing or fish production. Nevertheless it is a win, however small, and just about the only one. The UK should concede on LPF and governance and maximise their fisheries "win"

Without a win in fish it will be no deal sadly

Given the whole thing is a nonsense anyway, I think that's OK. But the UK will need to concede on LPF and governance and drop the treaty breaches.

If the treaty breaches are in the Internal Market bill on Monday as promised, then it is hard to not see the end of negotiations. Such a breach of trust and law makes an agreement untenable.

That's why the negotiations are this weekend though. You're putting the cart before the horse

If the negotiations reach a deal then the Internal Market Bill international law breaches become moot and can be dropped.

If the negotiations fail to reach a deal then the Internal Market Bill is entirely necessary so the amendments need to be put back in.

You’d have thought the EU would be familiar by now, with the concept of an insurance policy against a failure to make a deal?

Gaussian said:

tlg86 said:

In terms of population density, I reckon France has had a very poor pandemic.

Overall population density matters little, as most people do live in dense towns and cities anyway and there are plenty of connections between the.

malcolmg said:

MaxPB said:

YBarddCwsc said:

Theuniondivvie said:

YBarddCwsc said:

malcolmg said:

Mexicanpete said:

No_Offence_Alan said:

Of course, if a Corbyn government was repealing the FTPA, the Tory media would be screaming about prioritising obscure constitutional matters in the first year of a Parliament, when hundreds are dying from COVID daily.

The current incumbents of Downing Street are not alone. Nippy sees the Pandemic as an aligning star to get Scottish Independence over the line.

Bollox, the total opposite in fact.

Yes I think MalcomG is right.

I think Sturgeon has been especially good at communicating the terrifying & sombre responsibility of politicians who have to take life-costing public policy decisions from a position of ignorance (we still know little about the disease). I don't doubt that Sturgeon bitterly regrets the loss of every life: every Scottish life, every British life, every life.

(Boris' flippancy and jokiness means he has been especially bad at this).

Sturgeon however has made mistakes -- she has made nearly as many as Boris. She just hadn't paid for them in the polls (much like Drakeford, yet).

It will be interesting -- once this is all over -- to look to see if there is any statistically significant difference between Scotland, England, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Republic. My guess is there may be, though it does need a proper analysis.

For the moment, let's recall population density is an important factor in the transmission. Scotland has the lowest population density of England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland -- its population density is much lower than even Wales, let alone England. On those (admittedly crude) grounds alone, I'd expect Scotland to do quite a bit better than England.

We should remember that all the countries in Western Europe bar Germany & Norway have done pretty darned badly. We are arguing about the degree of badness. It is especially shaming because the UK is scientifically -- erm -- world beating. We should have done way, way better.

I'm not a fan of the Covid nationalism that not infrequently breaks out on here, but Scotland has done a 'bit' better (or less badly if you'd prefer); if these numbers were reversed you can be sure we'd never hear the end of it.

'Scotland has had 3 848 confirmed Covid deaths or 704 per million putting her in 22nd place. England with 52 601 deaths or 935 per million would be in 5th place and Wales with 2 638 or 837 per milliom would be in 11th place, just slightly worse than the USA. Northern Ireland with 542 would be way down the list.

ONS and NRS data tabulated by: https://www.travellingtabby.com/uk-coronavirus-tracker/'

https://tinyurl.com/yxhhl3q4

I'm not a fan of COVID nationalism either -- other than as an indication of which policies pursued by the various politicians have actually worked.

I think the table you linked to is interesting, but part of the story. To properly compare Scotland with England or Wales, I think you would want to compare e.g., regions of similar population density/demographics e.g., Central Belt with NE England or South Wales valleys. And the maybe with some equivalent regions on the continent.

I think I agree with David Spiegalhalter that the comparison is not easy, but you don't need to do lots of clever statistics to see Germany has done well.

"If these numbers were reversed you can be sure we'd never hear the end of it"

I agree with that. World Cup 1966, Olympics, Johnny Wilkinson's drop goal, and the Covid Tables would then skip easily off the English politician's tongue.😁

TUD has linked to incorrect or old data. There's is no difference between England, Scotland and Wales wrt COVID deaths. All three countries are at or around 100 deaths per 100k.

Disagree, Scotland is about 75 same as England, Wales is over a hundred and NI 30 ish
PS , talking about current numbers , overall Scotland is well below England

Cyclefree said:

Philip_Thompson said:

rottenborough said:

Hold on. Johnson at Chequers? Are you allowed to visit your second home under the Tier system? Seem to recall NYorks police are checking number plates for precisely this kind of unnecessary weekend trip.

https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1335145681351225344

I'm not sure for social purposes, I think so though it's not recommended for Tier 3 from memory.

But he's hosting and negotiating with Von Der Leyen, that would quite clearly be work related and work meetings are definitely allowed under even Tier 3.

He’s not hosting her. It’s a telephone call which he can perfectly well do from No 10. There is no reason for him to travel to Chequers at all.

another_richard said:

Gaussian said:

another_richard said:

Theuniondivvie said:

YBarddCwsc said:

malcolmg said:

Mexicanpete said:

No_Offence_Alan said:

Of course, if a Corbyn government was repealing the FTPA, the Tory media would be screaming about prioritising obscure constitutional matters in the first year of a Parliament, when hundreds are dying from COVID daily.

The current incumbents of Downing Street are not alone. Nippy sees the Pandemic as an aligning star to get Scottish Independence over the line.

Bollox, the total opposite in fact.

Yes I think MalcomG is right.

I think Sturgeon has been especially good at communicating the terrifying & sombre responsibility of politicians who have to take life-costing public policy decisions from a position of ignorance (we still know little about the disease). I don't doubt that Sturgeon bitterly regrets the loss of every life: every Scottish life, every British life, every life.

(Boris' flippancy and jokiness means he has been especially bad at this).

Sturgeon however has made mistakes -- she has made nearly as many as Boris. She just hadn't paid for them in the polls (much like Drakeford, yet).

It will be interesting -- once this is all over -- to look to see if there is any statistically significant difference between Scotland, England, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Republic. My guess is there may be, though it does need a proper analysis.

For the moment, let's recall population density is an important factor in the transmission. Scotland has the lowest population density of England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland -- its population density is much lower than even Wales, let alone England. On those (admittedly crude) grounds alone, I'd expect Scotland to do quite a bit better than England.

We should remember that all the countries in Western Europe bar Germany & Norway have done pretty darned badly. We are arguing about the degree of badness. It is especially shaming because the UK is scientifically -- erm -- world beating. We should have done way, way better.

I'm not a fan of the Covid nationalism that not infrequently breaks out on here, but Scotland has done a 'bit' better (or less badly if you'd prefer); if these numbers were reversed you can be sure we'd never hear the end of it.

'Scotland has had 3 848 confirmed Covid deaths or 704 per million putting her in 22nd place. England with 52 601 deaths or 935 per million would be in 5th place and Wales with 2 638 or 837 per milliom would be in 11th place, just slightly worse than the USA. Northern Ireland with 542 would be way down the list.

ONS and NRS data tabulated by: https://www.travellingtabby.com/uk-coronavirus-tracker/'

https://tinyurl.com/yxhhl3q4

I suspect that luck was the major factor in how countries performed in the spring.

Just locking down a week earlier would have halved the number of deaths. Italy locked down two weeks before the UK (and much of the rest Europe to be fair), and there was no good reason to wait until cases had reached similar levels here.

Activity had begun to reduce before the lockdown - people had been told to work form home, pubs had been shut, people had begun to shield by their own choice.

And there had been very few deaths anywhere before then.

I don't think a lockdown was possible before it had become generally accepted as necessary - remember, for example, the hordes of people driving to national parks in the weekend before lockdown.

malcolmg said:

MaxPB said:

YBarddCwsc said:

Theuniondivvie said:

YBarddCwsc said:

malcolmg said:

Mexicanpete said:

No_Offence_Alan said:

Of course, if a Corbyn government was repealing the FTPA, the Tory media would be screaming about prioritising obscure constitutional matters in the first year of a Parliament, when hundreds are dying from COVID daily.

The current incumbents of Downing Street are not alone. Nippy sees the Pandemic as an aligning star to get Scottish Independence over the line.

Bollox, the total opposite in fact.

Yes I think MalcomG is right.

I think Sturgeon has been especially good at communicating the terrifying & sombre responsibility of politicians who have to take life-costing public policy decisions from a position of ignorance (we still know little about the disease). I don't doubt that Sturgeon bitterly regrets the loss of every life: every Scottish life, every British life, every life.

(Boris' flippancy and jokiness means he has been especially bad at this).

Sturgeon however has made mistakes -- she has made nearly as many as Boris. She just hadn't paid for them in the polls (much like Drakeford, yet).

It will be interesting -- once this is all over -- to look to see if there is any statistically significant difference between Scotland, England, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Republic. My guess is there may be, though it does need a proper analysis.

For the moment, let's recall population density is an important factor in the transmission. Scotland has the lowest population density of England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland -- its population density is much lower than even Wales, let alone England. On those (admittedly crude) grounds alone, I'd expect Scotland to do quite a bit better than England.

We should remember that all the countries in Western Europe bar Germany & Norway have done pretty darned badly. We are arguing about the degree of badness. It is especially shaming because the UK is scientifically -- erm -- world beating. We should have done way, way better.

I'm not a fan of the Covid nationalism that not infrequently breaks out on here, but Scotland has done a 'bit' better (or less badly if you'd prefer); if these numbers were reversed you can be sure we'd never hear the end of it.

'Scotland has had 3 848 confirmed Covid deaths or 704 per million putting her in 22nd place. England with 52 601 deaths or 935 per million would be in 5th place and Wales with 2 638 or 837 per milliom would be in 11th place, just slightly worse than the USA. Northern Ireland with 542 would be way down the list.

ONS and NRS data tabulated by: https://www.travellingtabby.com/uk-coronavirus-tracker/'

https://tinyurl.com/yxhhl3q4

I'm not a fan of COVID nationalism either -- other than as an indication of which policies pursued by the various politicians have actually worked.

I think the table you linked to is interesting, but part of the story. To properly compare Scotland with England or Wales, I think you would want to compare e.g., regions of similar population density/demographics e.g., Central Belt with NE England or South Wales valleys. And the maybe with some equivalent regions on the continent.

I think I agree with David Spiegalhalter that the comparison is not easy, but you don't need to do lots of clever statistics to see Germany has done well.

"If these numbers were reversed you can be sure we'd never hear the end of it"

I agree with that. World Cup 1966, Olympics, Johnny Wilkinson's drop goal, and the Covid Tables would then skip easily off the English politician's tongue.😁

TUD has linked to incorrect or old data. There's is no difference between England, Scotland and Wales wrt COVID deaths. All three countries are at or around 100 deaths per 100k.

Disagree, Scotland is about 75 same as England, Wales is over a hundred and NI 30 ish
PS , talking about current numbers , overall Scotland is well below England

Theuniondivvie said:

malcolmg said:

MaxPB said:

YBarddCwsc said:

Theuniondivvie said:

YBarddCwsc said:

malcolmg said:

Mexicanpete said:

No_Offence_Alan said:

Of course, if a Corbyn government was repealing the FTPA, the Tory media would be screaming about prioritising obscure constitutional matters in the first year of a Parliament, when hundreds are dying from COVID daily.

The current incumbents of Downing Street are not alone. Nippy sees the Pandemic as an aligning star to get Scottish Independence over the line.

Bollox, the total opposite in fact.

Yes I think MalcomG is right.

I think Sturgeon has been especially good at communicating the terrifying & sombre responsibility of politicians who have to take life-costing public policy decisions from a position of ignorance (we still know little about the disease). I don't doubt that Sturgeon bitterly regrets the loss of every life: every Scottish life, every British life, every life.

(Boris' flippancy and jokiness means he has been especially bad at this).

Sturgeon however has made mistakes -- she has made nearly as many as Boris. She just hadn't paid for them in the polls (much like Drakeford, yet).

It will be interesting -- once this is all over -- to look to see if there is any statistically significant difference between Scotland, England, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Republic. My guess is there may be, though it does need a proper analysis.

For the moment, let's recall population density is an important factor in the transmission. Scotland has the lowest population density of England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland -- its population density is much lower than even Wales, let alone England. On those (admittedly crude) grounds alone, I'd expect Scotland to do quite a bit better than England.

We should remember that all the countries in Western Europe bar Germany & Norway have done pretty darned badly. We are arguing about the degree of badness. It is especially shaming because the UK is scientifically -- erm -- world beating. We should have done way, way better.

I'm not a fan of the Covid nationalism that not infrequently breaks out on here, but Scotland has done a 'bit' better (or less badly if you'd prefer); if these numbers were reversed you can be sure we'd never hear the end of it.

'Scotland has had 3 848 confirmed Covid deaths or 704 per million putting her in 22nd place. England with 52 601 deaths or 935 per million would be in 5th place and Wales with 2 638 or 837 per milliom would be in 11th place, just slightly worse than the USA. Northern Ireland with 542 would be way down the list.

ONS and NRS data tabulated by: https://www.travellingtabby.com/uk-coronavirus-tracker/'

https://tinyurl.com/yxhhl3q4

I'm not a fan of COVID nationalism either -- other than as an indication of which policies pursued by the various politicians have actually worked.

I think the table you linked to is interesting, but part of the story. To properly compare Scotland with England or Wales, I think you would want to compare e.g., regions of similar population density/demographics e.g., Central Belt with NE England or South Wales valleys. And the maybe with some equivalent regions on the continent.

I think I agree with David Spiegalhalter that the comparison is not easy, but you don't need to do lots of clever statistics to see Germany has done well.

"If these numbers were reversed you can be sure we'd never hear the end of it"

I agree with that. World Cup 1966, Olympics, Johnny Wilkinson's drop goal, and the Covid Tables would then skip easily off the English politician's tongue.😁

TUD has linked to incorrect or old data. There's is no difference between England, Scotland and Wales wrt COVID deaths. All three countries are at or around 100 deaths per 100k.

Disagree, Scotland is about 75 same as England, Wales is over a hundred and NI 30 ish
PS , talking about current numbers , overall Scotland is well below England

C'mon malc, folk moving from suggesting that Scotland's public services are not as 'resilient' as those of the rest of the UK to 'we're all as shit as each other' has got to be seen as a positive.

Sandpit said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Foxy said:

FF43 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

FF43 said:

Scott_xP said:

FF43 said:

Fishing is about the only win from Brexit.

It's not though.

Catching fish you can't sell is not a win

Correct. Should always be precise. Fishing quotas is a win. Also how you allocate those quotas is not a win. And fishing quotas don't benefit inshore fishing or fish production. Nevertheless it is a win, however small, and just about the only one. The UK should concede on LPF and governance and maximise their fisheries "win"

Without a win in fish it will be no deal sadly

Given the whole thing is a nonsense anyway, I think that's OK. But the UK will need to concede on LPF and governance and drop the treaty breaches.

If the treaty breaches are in the Internal Market bill on Monday as promised, then it is hard to not see the end of negotiations. Such a breach of trust and law makes an agreement untenable.

That's why the negotiations are this weekend though. You're putting the cart before the horse

If the negotiations reach a deal then the Internal Market Bill international law breaches become moot and can be dropped.

If the negotiations fail to reach a deal then the Internal Market Bill is entirely necessary so the amendments need to be put back in.

You’d have thought the EU would be familiar by now, with the concept of an insurance policy against a failure to make a deal?

another_richard said:

MaxPB said:

Beibheirli_C said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/JuliaHB1/status/1335163670251368448

From a business point of view, what else can they do? Keg beer only lasts six weeks. Why buy stock that costs a lot and you might not be able to sell? As for food stock...

Hospitality is not really very switch-on-and-off-able...

But PB experts told me that it was and the strategy of two weeks of "circuit break" every four weeks was a great idea. Amazingly these PB experts have gone quiet after the fiasco that was the Wales circuit breaker.

Not just the PB experts but Whitty, Vallance and the other scientific 'experts' thought it a good idea as well.

HYUFD said:

Slackbladder said:

HYUFD said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

HYUFD said:

https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1335147543899074560?s=20

https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1335169839544082432?s=20

Four years on, he's still fighting a war.

It's over Andrew.

Put your efforts into something more constructive.

He does have a point on No Deal though, Brexit to be viable longer term needs a Deal, whether Canada style or Norway style or whatever, no trade deal at all will embolden Remainers in that it will leave Brexit support confined to the diehards, there would almost certainly be a big majority in the polls for returning to the EU next year if the only alternative Brexiteers can produce is No Deal with our largest export destination by January

Anyone want any odds on the chances of Labour explicitly having 'we will reapply for membership of the EU' in their manifesto?

If we go to No Deal in January and it proves a disaster with mass unemployment etc and tensions across the Union and as unpopular in the polls as the poll tax was then I think that is quite likely, however I think if that was the case Tory MPs would take fright and replace Boris with Sunak to get a deal as they did in 1990 when they replaced Thatcher with Major who then dumped the poll tax

Pulpstar said:

kinabalu said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Foxy said:

FF43 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

FF43 said:

Scott_xP said:

FF43 said:

Fishing is about the only win from Brexit.

It's not though.

Catching fish you can't sell is not a win

Correct. Should always be precise. Fishing quotas is a win. Also how you allocate those quotas is not a win. And fishing quotas don't benefit inshore fishing or fish production. Nevertheless it is a win, however small, and just about the only one. The UK should concede on LPF and governance and maximise their fisheries "win"

Without a win in fish it will be no deal sadly

Given the whole thing is a nonsense anyway, I think that's OK. But the UK will need to concede on LPF and governance and drop the treaty breaches.

If the treaty breaches are in the Internal Market bill on Monday as promised, then it is hard to not see the end of negotiations. Such a breach of trust and law makes an agreement untenable.

That's why the negotiations are this weekend though. You're putting the cart before the horse

If the negotiations reach a deal then the Internal Market Bill international law breaches become moot and can be dropped.

If the negotiations fail to reach a deal then the Internal Market Bill is entirely necessary so the amendments need to be put back in.

There'll be a deal. It just has to go to the stroke of midnight and beyond - with leaks of great late drama and conflicts - so that Muscles and Manu are perceived by their publics to have battled to the death for their respective nations. This is not cynicism from me - I hate cynicism - it's simply the clear and obvious reality. We will not be moving to WTO terms and playing fast and loose with the Irish border. Only a total Brexit headbanger PM such as John "hey you get off of our trout" Redwood would even contemplate such utter madness.

No, Philip, the deal is coming. So get the coffee on and get ready for a typefest ...

I hope you're as right on this as you were on the US elections !