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It looks as though Trump won’t press ahead with a Supreme Court nominee this side of the election –

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    to rip up the 'triple lock' which protects the income of pensioners.

    Good, I agree about that
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    edited September 2020

    If Labour supports austerity 2.0 I am going to have to consider resigning from the party.

    Given to become PM Starmer will likely need the backing of Ed Davey and the LDs and Davey is the most fiscally conservative party leader at the moment, a reflection of his time as a Minister in the Coalition, I would certainly think it unlikely he will be spending much more than the Tories. Of course in Blair's first term he actually spent slightly less than Major had
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    Barnesian said:

    I do think austerity 2.0 is inevitable with the Tories but who it falls on, well that's for them to decide

    Austerity is inevitable under any party of government
    Quite so. Even Starmer says tax rises now are off the agenda so the deficit needs to be tackled somehow.
    It doesn't. We can live with it. The Bank of England can create the money to fill the gap. There's no risk of inflation in the foreseeable future - the reverse in fact.
    With all due respect, planning on the basis that "there's no risk of inflation in the foreseeable future" is remarkably complacent. If 2020 has taught us anything it's that the foreseeable future is not foreseeable at all.
    But squeezing the economy dry by austerity for fear of potential inflation at some unforeseeable point in the future is worse than complacent - it's insane.
    Freezing wages when there is zero inflation and negative growth is not "austerity".

    Is a 5% pay rise when there is 5% inflation "austerity"?
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,636

    Barnesian said:

    I do think austerity 2.0 is inevitable with the Tories but who it falls on, well that's for them to decide

    Austerity is inevitable under any party of government
    Quite so. Even Starmer says tax rises now are off the agenda so the deficit needs to be tackled somehow.
    It doesn't. We can live with it. The Bank of England can create the money to fill the gap. There's no risk of inflation in the foreseeable future - the reverse in fact.
    With all due respect, planning on the basis that "there's no risk of inflation in the foreseeable future" is remarkably complacent. If 2020 has taught us anything it's that the foreseeable future is not foreseeable at all.
    inflation is a problem soon .
    Not for the next two years at least.
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    Barnesian said:

    I do think austerity 2.0 is inevitable with the Tories but who it falls on, well that's for them to decide

    Austerity is inevitable under any party of government
    No it isn't BigG. Printing money and taxing wealth are both viable approaches.

    Freezing benefits and public-sector pay just means less money going into the economy to drive the recovery.
    With millions of private sector jobs on the line freezing public sector pay and selective benefits like annual 2.5% pension increases is inevitable
    How does freezing public sector pay and selective benefits save any private sector jobs? Quite the opposite - a lot of those private sector jobs rely on money being spent. You can guarantee that virtually every penny of benefits will go straight back into the economy to support those private sector jobs. (The only exception being housing benefit much of which ends up subsidising private landlords - freeze that by all means.)
    The more lost jobs in the private sector the less tax and less to pay the public sector
    The BoE prints the money and lends it to the government. It remits the interest on the debt back to the Treasury. MMT.
    you dont create wealth by printing money - money is only backed ultimately by a productive economy -inflation will increase and the pound weaken .
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,952
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Excellent choice, he is the high priest of intellectual Toryism though his parents were Liberals
    Textbook member of the elite.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,484
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Excellent choice, he is the high priest of intellectual Toryism though his parents were Liberals
    He’s barely more an intellectual than Hannan.
    Though High Priest might be a more appropriate appointment than BBC chairman.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,636

    Now is the time to invest, not cut.

    You cannot cut your way out of a hole. It has never worked and it will never work.

    NO, you let businesses free .

    Let them free what?
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    Now is the time to invest, not cut.

    You cannot cut your way out of a hole. It has never worked and it will never work.

    A pay freeze when there is no inflation is not a cut.
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    Spending on housing, that's what the Government should do. Get to it.

    It's about the world post this crash, interest rates are at a historic low, invest properly.

    Renewables.

    Why is nobody in the political mainstream arguing for this?

    Boris is. Boris has spoken about all of that.

    But pay rises are not "investment". Pay rises are current expenditure, not investment.
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    New York will honor Ruth Bader Ginsburg with statue in Brooklyn

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/sep/19/new-york-ruth-bader-ginsburg-statue-brooklyn

    In 100 years they will be ripping it down because of her unprogressive views...
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    Now is the time to invest, not cut.

    You cannot cut your way out of a hole. It has never worked and it will never work.

    A pay freeze when there is no inflation is not a cut.
    You know full well in the long term the result will be their pay goes down in real terms
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    to rip up the 'triple lock' which protects the income of pensioners.

    Good, I agree about that

    Glad we can agree on this one.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Mortimer said:

    Freeze benefits and freeze state pay, lets see how Rishi's popularity is after that

    I suspect it might go up amongst Tory voters....
    And to think they were applauding NHS heroes a few months ago.
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    Spending on housing, that's what the Government should do. Get to it.

    It's about the world post this crash, interest rates are at a historic low, invest properly.

    Renewables.

    Why is nobody in the political mainstream arguing for this?

    Boris is. Boris has spoken about all of that.

    But pay rises are not "investment". Pay rises are current expenditure, not investment.
    He has not articulated any of this as a result to COVID. He articulated it in a very small way with some nonsense about full fibre which he then dropped when he became leader. He has not mentioned it at all in recent months.

    Keir has a window here to make a real contrast.
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    Now is the time to invest, not cut.

    You cannot cut your way out of a hole. It has never worked and it will never work.

    A pay freeze when there is no inflation is not a cut.
    You know full well in the long term the result will be their pay goes down in real terms
    Not at all.

    Once inflation returns pay rises should too. A pay freeze when there's no growth and no inflation is not a cut - and yes 100% this should apply to pensioners too.

    If there's extra spending it should go on investment etc, not current expenditure like wages and pensions. Or would you rather have less investment and more current expenditure?
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    So how do you avoid a £10k fine for going out after a positive test?

    Don't get tested!

    This is all a cunning plan (Cumming plan?) to take the pressure off the testing system.
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    Jonathan said:

    Mortimer said:

    Freeze benefits and freeze state pay, lets see how Rishi's popularity is after that

    I suspect it might go up amongst Tory voters....
    And to think they were applauding NHS heroes a few months ago.
    It's just a means to an end.

    They were never going to get a long term better deal. It's the Tory way.

    This is how Labour rebuilds support, we be on their side.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,636

    Now is the time to invest, not cut.

    You cannot cut your way out of a hole. It has never worked and it will never work.

    A pay freeze when there is no inflation is not a cut.
    There is not no inflation.
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    Now is the time to invest, not cut.

    You cannot cut your way out of a hole. It has never worked and it will never work.

    A pay freeze when there is no inflation is not a cut.
    You know full well in the long term the result will be their pay goes down in real terms
    Not at all.

    Once inflation returns pay rises should too. A pay freeze when there's no growth and no inflation is not a cut - and yes 100% this should apply to pensioners too.

    If there's extra spending it should go on investment etc, not current expenditure like wages and pensions. Or would you rather have less investment and more current expenditure?
    No pay freezes and investment. We can do both.
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    I find it funny Philip, they're about to put Charles Moore to head the BBC (per DM), he's a climate change denier.

    Johnson is not articulating investment in renewables at all.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    Mortimer said:

    Freeze benefits and freeze state pay, lets see how Rishi's popularity is after that

    I suspect it might go up amongst Tory voters....
    And to think they were applauding NHS heroes a few months ago.
    It's just a means to an end.

    They were never going to get a long term better deal. It's the Tory way.

    This is how Labour rebuilds support, we be on their side.
    The Conservatives are dishonourable if they go through with this. Empty applause.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,910
    Nigelb said:
    Overturning Roe v Wade is a fantasy for hardcore conservatives but it's a net vote loser.
    Im not sure the header is accurate either, judging by the tweet replies
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited September 2020
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    Now is the time to invest, not cut.

    You cannot cut your way out of a hole. It has never worked and it will never work.

    A pay freeze when there is no inflation is not a cut.
    You know full well in the long term the result will be their pay goes down in real terms
    Not at all.

    Once inflation returns pay rises should too. A pay freeze when there's no growth and no inflation is not a cut - and yes 100% this should apply to pensioners too.

    If there's extra spending it should go on investment etc, not current expenditure like wages and pensions. Or would you rather have less investment and more current expenditure?
    No pay freezes and investment. We can do both.
    Funded how?

    And presumably you'd want a pay raise for everyone next year, and the year after, and the year after that too. The alternative to restraining wage bills when money is limited is losing staff.
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    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Mortimer said:

    Freeze benefits and freeze state pay, lets see how Rishi's popularity is after that

    I suspect it might go up amongst Tory voters....
    And to think they were applauding NHS heroes a few months ago.
    It's just a means to an end.

    They were never going to get a long term better deal. It's the Tory way.

    This is how Labour rebuilds support, we be on their side.
    The Conservatives are dishonourable if they go through with this. Empty applause.
    Well they've made a string of terrible decisions lately, it will not surprise me at all.

    I don't think they have a clue how to Govern.

    Win elections, absolutely. Government? No.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,636

    Barnesian said:

    I do think austerity 2.0 is inevitable with the Tories but who it falls on, well that's for them to decide

    Austerity is inevitable under any party of government
    Quite so. Even Starmer says tax rises now are off the agenda so the deficit needs to be tackled somehow.
    It doesn't. We can live with it. The Bank of England can create the money to fill the gap. There's no risk of inflation in the foreseeable future - the reverse in fact.
    With all due respect, planning on the basis that "there's no risk of inflation in the foreseeable future" is remarkably complacent. If 2020 has taught us anything it's that the foreseeable future is not foreseeable at all.
    But squeezing the economy dry by austerity for fear of potential inflation at some unforeseeable point in the future is worse than complacent - it's insane.
    Freezing wages when there is zero inflation and negative growth is not "austerity".

    Is a 5% pay rise when there is 5% inflation "austerity"?
    If inflation were zero the government would not be talking about freezing benefits and public-sector pay, it could just let the standard formulas apply each year.
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    Pulpstar said:

    moonshine said:

    Pulpstar said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    nichomar said:

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    The problem we might have is when Sunak takes over, we go back to where we were.

    Someone who keeps handing out free money and free food and booze will be tough to beat!
    It looks like Eat Out To Help Out is coming back to bite him - and we will see shortly when the furlough scheme ends, how his popularity might change.
    You think he didn't foresee the inflation thing? He's a clever cookie. It widens his choices - he can save a shedload on govt index linked obligations, or look personally bountiful by waiving the effect of eotho, or a mixture (waive for wages, not for indexed bonds).
    No not inflation, I refer to it perhaps causing the idea of the virus having gone away and putting into place the idea to ignore social distancing. Perhaps I'm reaching.
    I think so. The absence of significant numbers of cases and deaths were causing people to get out more anyway.

    People won't live locked down forever, VE Day weekend when it was gloriously sunny and we were still in lockdown is when it began to end for me, most houses on my street were out in their gardens and at least half of them had visitors despite it being illegal still at the time.
    The problem is that this attitude - and I accept I might be reaching - leads to cases going up again.

    The Government clearly thinks this is an issue, hence their change in tack this week.

    I just don't see how we avoid the economy being in a hole for a long period of time and I can only blame Government incompetence for that. They started briefing about getting back to work, they decided to let groups of 30 meet, they said get out and use the pubs.

    We will see what happens - but I think perhaps people being scared to go out might be seen as better in the long term
    It would be interesting to know what has caused the recent rapid growth in cases, after all we spent several weeks after 4 July with cases going nowhere. Given that people are talking about recent local spikes being due to household transmission, I guess it might have been allowing 30 people to mix. I've had no people in my flat since March apart from some heating engineers (which was a bit of a necessity) and have been to half a dozen garden socials so I'm at a bit of a loss as to why people feel the need to huddle together in each others' houses. Just grow up and learn to stand on your own two feet.
    Why don’t you grow up and let other people live how they want in their own homes
    In Spain family/friends social gatherings are one of the main drivers of the increased infection rates.
    You miss the point. I and many others don’t care any more.
    Why do you not care? I know you have secret insider knowledge about the imminent availability of a vaccine but even so surely it is worth keeping a lid on it until it is available?
    Because I look at the evidence which indicates that this is not a Justinian plague as originally feared but something that causes perhaps 8 weeks of excess mortality, and potentially a post viral syndrome with as yet unspecified severity, prevalence and duration.

    The vaccine is useful not because it’s something that magically saves half a million lives in the UK (although it will of course save lives) but because without it the unthinking multitudes will remain too fearful to notice what’s been taken away from them.
    Friend of mine still has effects from the virus - 50ish years old, fit as a fiddle; no pre-existing conditions
    What’s your point? I know loads of people that had it too and are just fine. I also know plenty of people that ended up with post viral fatigue syndrome long before anyone had the word coronavirus in their scrabble notebook. I also know people that are going to die because their cancer treatment got suspended, sacrificed at the holy altar of covid.
    Vaccine is probably available next year, best try and keep Covid numbers down till then I think. If a vaccine was years away I'd agree about 'living with it' but it isn't so best to sacrifice some short term liberty for long term health
    Try explaining that to the foreign holiday obsessives.
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    Now is the time to invest, not cut.

    You cannot cut your way out of a hole. It has never worked and it will never work.

    A pay freeze when there is no inflation is not a cut.
    You know full well in the long term the result will be their pay goes down in real terms
    Not at all.

    Once inflation returns pay rises should too. A pay freeze when there's no growth and no inflation is not a cut - and yes 100% this should apply to pensioners too.

    If there's extra spending it should go on investment etc, not current expenditure like wages and pensions. Or would you rather have less investment and more current expenditure?
    No pay freezes and investment. We can do both.
    Funded how?

    And presumably you'd want a pay raise for everyone next year, and the year after, and the year after that too. The alternative to restraining wage bills when money is limited is losing staff.
    Borrowing, interest rates are at a record low, or QE for the people.
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    You cannot cut your way out of a recession. We are in deep and we need to invest.

    This is 2010 all over again, Labour needs to be on the correct side this time
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,636
    Will the £20 per week supplement Rishi added to the UC standard allowance end in March 2021, I wonder?
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,538

    New York will honor Ruth Bader Ginsburg with statue in Brooklyn

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/sep/19/new-york-ruth-bader-ginsburg-statue-brooklyn

    In 100 years they will be ripping it down because of her unprogressive views...

    100 years? Probably more like 10.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited September 2020
    The Conservatives do not get to play the public sector pay is unaffordable card any more. One word...

    Moonshot.
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    You cannot cut your way out of a recession. We are in deep and we need to invest.

    This is 2010 all over again, Labour needs to be on the correct side this time

    the private sector needs to do the investing though otherwise the public sector do it wasteful and generally crap
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    I find it funny Philip, they're about to put Charles Moore to head the BBC (per DM), he's a climate change denier.

    Johnson is not articulating investment in renewables at all.

    Is the BBC Chairman responsible for climate change policy now? Or is he responsible for the BBC?
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    Whatever dirt Dido has on the Hancock, it must be absolute filth.
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    I find it funny Philip, they're about to put Charles Moore to head the BBC (per DM), he's a climate change denier.

    Johnson is not articulating investment in renewables at all.

    Is the BBC Chairman responsible for climate change policy now? Or is he responsible for the BBC?
    Number 10 favour him. You best ask them.

    This is you washing your hands of it all over again, just like the IRA appointment.
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    You cannot cut your way out of a recession. We are in deep and we need to invest.

    This is 2010 all over again, Labour needs to be on the correct side this time

    the private sector needs to do the investing though otherwise the public sector do it wasteful and generally crap
    State investment bank.
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    If the Tories do go full austerity 2.0, well I won't be as worried about Labour's chances in the Red Wall.
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    You cannot cut your way out of a recession. We are in deep and we need to invest.

    This is 2010 all over again, Labour needs to be on the correct side this time

    the private sector needs to do the investing though otherwise the public sector do it wasteful and generally crap
    State investment bank.
    Dear god!
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    You cannot cut your way out of a recession. We are in deep and we need to invest.

    This is 2010 all over again, Labour needs to be on the correct side this time

    the private sector needs to do the investing though otherwise the public sector do it wasteful and generally crap
    State investment bank.
    Dear god!
    Works well in Germany.

    State gives loans to companies, they can spend it as they wish. It's a good idea.

    I also support investment in roads, railways, FTTP. All superb ideas.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    Nigelb said:
    There are more evangelicals than that in Ohio and Arizona and Iowa for example and they proved crucial in Bush's win in 2004 and Trump's in 2016
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    You cannot cut your way out of a recession. We are in deep and we need to invest.

    This is 2010 all over again, Labour needs to be on the correct side this time

    Was the UK in recession in 2010?

    I agree there shouldn't be cuts this year BTW, we are in recession now. But after this virus and recession is over the deficit will need dealing with.
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    Playing a round of golf with Bryson DeChambeau seems on par with having to share an office with Dominic Cummings.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,162

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    SandraMc said:

    Is Sean T around in one of his many forms? In the "Telegraph" magazine today Martin Amis is quoted as saying: "There are no other examples of a writer child from a writer parent. It makes me feel freakish". Any thoughts?.

    Mary Shelley and Mary Wollstonecraft say hi.
    Jules and Michel Verne.

    Alexandre Dumas pere and fils.
    Martin Amis obviously meant people in his league: the Shakespeares, the Goethes, the Tolstoys...
    ☺ - although Money is better than anything by those 3.
    Well, that a view I guess. I'm inclined to think though that Money will be a little-known curiosity in 400 years, while Hamlet, Macbeth, Romeo & Juliet etc. will still be playing to live audiences. And with good reason.
    I think Money will be read 500 years from now if reading is still a thing.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    You cannot cut your way out of a recession. We are in deep and we need to invest.

    This is 2010 all over again, Labour needs to be on the correct side this time

    the private sector needs to do the investing though otherwise the public sector do it wasteful and generally crap
    As if the private sector doesn’t waste money or is immune from crap. If we are to dig our way of this we’ll need private and public spending and a little less dogma.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    edited September 2020

    If the Tories do go full austerity 2.0, well I won't be as worried about Labour's chances in the Red Wall.

    That is precisely why they won't go full austerity as so many Tory MPs now represent Red Wall seats and without their votes there is no Tory majority in the Commons
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    It's interesting to see HYUFD opposing austerity and Philip gleefully supporting it. Split in the Tory ranks
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    It's interesting to see HYUFD opposing austerity and Philip gleefully supporting it. Split in the Tory ranks

    I oppose HYUFD about as often as I oppose you.
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    You cannot cut your way out of a recession. We are in deep and we need to invest.

    This is 2010 all over again, Labour needs to be on the correct side this time

    Was the UK in recession in 2010?

    I agree there shouldn't be cuts this year BTW, we are in recession now. But after this virus and recession is over the deficit will need dealing with.
    No thanks to Gordon Brown we'd recovered. Osborne's ideological experiment undid that and almost put us into another one.
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    Austerity didn't work then, it won't work now.
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    It's interesting to see HYUFD opposing austerity and Philip gleefully supporting it. Split in the Tory ranks

    I oppose HYUFD about as often as I oppose you.
    Your party is split on this issue though.
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    You want to cut the deficit, grow the economy.
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    It's interesting to see HYUFD opposing austerity and Philip gleefully supporting it. Split in the Tory ranks

    I oppose HYUFD about as often as I oppose you.
    Your party is split on this issue though.
    Good.
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    Starmer should play up his family credentials and humble beginnings more, that's relatable.

    I admire his commitment to his mother.
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    It's interesting to see HYUFD opposing austerity and Philip gleefully supporting it. Split in the Tory ranks

    I oppose HYUFD about as often as I oppose you.
    Your party is split on this issue though.
    Good.
    Indeed, great for Labour.
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    Presumably the Government has now turned "woke" with its view to eliminate the honours system.

    Or is it because it's a Tory proposal, now ok?
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Now is the time to invest, not cut.

    You cannot cut your way out of a hole. It has never worked and it will never work.

    A pay freeze when there is no inflation is not a cut.
    You know full well in the long term the result will be their pay goes down in real terms
    Not at all.

    Once inflation returns pay rises should too. A pay freeze when there's no growth and no inflation is not a cut - and yes 100% this should apply to pensioners too.

    If there's extra spending it should go on investment etc, not current expenditure like wages and pensions. Or would you rather have less investment and more current expenditure?
    No pay freezes and investment. We can do both.
    Funded how?

    And presumably you'd want a pay raise for everyone next year, and the year after, and the year after that too. The alternative to restraining wage bills when money is limited is losing staff.
    Borrowing, interest rates are at a record low, or QE for the people.
    Borrowing has to be refinanced and rates will not always be at historic lows.

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    You cannot cut your way out of a recession. We are in deep and we need to invest.

    This is 2010 all over again, Labour needs to be on the correct side this time

    Was the UK in recession in 2010?

    I agree there shouldn't be cuts this year BTW, we are in recession now. But after this virus and recession is over the deficit will need dealing with.
    No thanks to Gordon Brown we'd recovered. Osborne's ideological experiment undid that and almost put us into another one.
    We hadn't recovered, we had a 10% deficit. Until that's gone you can't say we'd "recovered".

    Osborne's fantastic stewardship of the economy helped lay the foundations for a decade of growth, elimination of Brown's deficit, full employment, faster growth in the UK over the decade than the rest of our continent and the EU we were within and yet you still object.
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    You cannot cut your way out of a recession. We are in deep and we need to invest.

    This is 2010 all over again, Labour needs to be on the correct side this time

    Was the UK in recession in 2010?

    I agree there shouldn't be cuts this year BTW, we are in recession now. But after this virus and recession is over the deficit will need dealing with.
    No thanks to Gordon Brown we'd recovered. Osborne's ideological experiment undid that and almost put us into another one.
    We hadn't recovered, we had a 10% deficit. Until that's gone you can't say we'd "recovered".

    Osborne's fantastic stewardship of the economy helped lay the foundations for a decade of growth, elimination of Brown's deficit, full employment, faster growth in the UK over the decade than the rest of our continent and the EU we were within and yet you still object.
    No deficit is not the sign of a healthy economy. Or do you think every other Tory Government that ran a deficit is also a failure?
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    Jonathan said:

    You cannot cut your way out of a recession. We are in deep and we need to invest.

    This is 2010 all over again, Labour needs to be on the correct side this time

    the private sector needs to do the investing though otherwise the public sector do it wasteful and generally crap
    As if the private sector doesn’t waste money or is immune from crap. If we are to dig our way of this we’ll need private and public spending and a little less dogma.
    The railways and banks waste money like it's going out of fashion, because they know we'll bail them out when they run out.
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    It's interesting to see HYUFD opposing austerity and Philip gleefully supporting it. Split in the Tory ranks

    I oppose HYUFD about as often as I oppose you.
    Your party is split on this issue though.
    Good.
    Indeed, great for Labour.
    Why?

    Diversity is important. Parties that have no diversity of thought lead to ignorance.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,910
    https://twitter.com/CNNPolitics/status/1307443874185576449

    Trump wants a SCOTUS confirmed quickly because he knows its a wedge issue that wont help him
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    It's interesting to see HYUFD opposing austerity and Philip gleefully supporting it. Split in the Tory ranks

    I oppose HYUFD about as often as I oppose you.
    Your party is split on this issue though.
    Good.
    Indeed, great for Labour.
    Why?

    Diversity is important. Parties that have no diversity of thought lead to ignorance.
    If you're pro austerity as a party and you adopt that position, you're going to tank.

    HYUFD obviously sees that
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    moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,244
    edited September 2020

    It's interesting to see HYUFD opposing austerity and Philip gleefully supporting it. Split in the Tory ranks

    I oppose HYUFD about as often as I oppose you.
    Your party is split on this issue though.
    Good.
    Indeed, great for Labour.
    Starmer needs to get rid of Corbyn, RLB and their ilk pronto. If he does so, he’ll stand an excellent chance of winning next time. If he doesn’t, then he’ll be a quickly forgotten figure.
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    moonshine said:

    It's interesting to see HYUFD opposing austerity and Philip gleefully supporting it. Split in the Tory ranks

    I oppose HYUFD about as often as I oppose you.
    Your party is split on this issue though.
    Good.
    Indeed, great for Labour.
    Starmer needs to get rid of Corbyn, RLB and their ilk pronto. If he does so, he’ll stand an excellent chance of winning next time. If he doesn’t, then he’ll be a quickly forgotten figure.
    The report must be out soon
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    You cannot cut your way out of a recession. We are in deep and we need to invest.

    This is 2010 all over again, Labour needs to be on the correct side this time

    Was the UK in recession in 2010?

    I agree there shouldn't be cuts this year BTW, we are in recession now. But after this virus and recession is over the deficit will need dealing with.
    No thanks to Gordon Brown we'd recovered. Osborne's ideological experiment undid that and almost put us into another one.
    We hadn't recovered, we had a 10% deficit. Until that's gone you can't say we'd "recovered".

    Osborne's fantastic stewardship of the economy helped lay the foundations for a decade of growth, elimination of Brown's deficit, full employment, faster growth in the UK over the decade than the rest of our continent and the EU we were within and yet you still object.
    No deficit is not the sign of a healthy economy. Or do you think every other Tory Government that ran a deficit is also a failure?
    A deficit over the cycle at or below growth is fine. There doesn't need to be zero deficit but it needs to be managed. 10% is not managed.

    Going into this recession the UK debt-to-GDP was falling because the deficit had been brought down and was below growth.
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    https://twitter.com/standardnews/status/1307446134122704896

    Typical woke BB...oh it's a private company
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    It's interesting to see HYUFD opposing austerity and Philip gleefully supporting it. Split in the Tory ranks

    I oppose HYUFD about as often as I oppose you.
    Your party is split on this issue though.
    Good.
    Indeed, great for Labour.
    Why?

    Diversity is important. Parties that have no diversity of thought lead to ignorance.
    If you're pro austerity as a party and you adopt that position, you're going to tank.

    HYUFD obviously sees that
    Proper stewardship of finances is not "austerity".
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    You cannot cut your way out of a recession. We are in deep and we need to invest.

    This is 2010 all over again, Labour needs to be on the correct side this time

    Was the UK in recession in 2010?

    I agree there shouldn't be cuts this year BTW, we are in recession now. But after this virus and recession is over the deficit will need dealing with.
    No thanks to Gordon Brown we'd recovered. Osborne's ideological experiment undid that and almost put us into another one.
    We hadn't recovered, we had a 10% deficit. Until that's gone you can't say we'd "recovered".

    Osborne's fantastic stewardship of the economy helped lay the foundations for a decade of growth, elimination of Brown's deficit, full employment, faster growth in the UK over the decade than the rest of our continent and the EU we were within and yet you still object.
    No deficit is not the sign of a healthy economy. Or do you think every other Tory Government that ran a deficit is also a failure?
    A deficit over the cycle at or below growth is fine. There doesn't need to be zero deficit but it needs to be managed. 10% is not managed.

    Going into this recession the UK debt-to-GDP was falling because the deficit had been brought down and was below growth.
    What percentage do you consider managed?
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    Austerity didn't work then, it won't work now.

    I've never understood the difference between austerity and the government not spending money it doesn't have.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    edited September 2020

    It's interesting to see HYUFD opposing austerity and Philip gleefully supporting it. Split in the Tory ranks

    I supported austerity in 2010 as it was needed to balance the books but we need the economy to grow again now as a priority and then we can balance the books.

    Plus in 2010 and 2015 far more Tory MPs represented fiscally conservative, wealthy seats in the south and areas of London which backed Remain in 2016.

    Now some of those have been lost to Labour and the LDs and new Tory MPs have been elected from poorer Leave voting seats in the North and Midlands and Wales who are less supportive of austerity, hence they supported Labour in 2010 and 2015. Indeed the new Tory Red Wall seats even have an average income less than current Labour seats let alone previous Tory ones

    https://www.ft.com/content/48495b7f-b749-407b-9cfe-c1a34f6a9cf5
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,910
    Biden's happy enough to make the election about SCOTUS..

    https://twitter.com/JoeBiden/status/1307445614184198151
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,484
    edited September 2020
    .
    Pulpstar said:

    https://twitter.com/CNNPolitics/status/1307443874185576449

    Trump wants a SCOTUS confirmed quickly because he knows its a wedge issue that wont help him

    They’re not going to leave it for the lame duck session as they’ll have one, possibly two fewer votes after the winners of the Arizona and Georgia special elections take their seats.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,952
    Excellent insight on here tonight to yet another problem the government faces coming down the tracks.
    The scale of the economic problem dwarfs any possible cuts that can be conceivably made. There isn't much fat to be trimmed.
    Yet a faction still believe in a quasi-mystical fashion that that is the only way.
    And that it is just and proper too.
    @stodge was right earlier. The world has changed utterly.
    We need new thinking, but many want desperately to reach for the old comfort blankets.
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    dixiedean said:

    Excellent insight on here tonight to yet another problem the government faces coming down the tracks.
    The scale of the economic problem dwarfs any possible cuts that can be conceivably made. There isn't much fat to be trimmed.
    Yet a faction still believe in a quasi-mystical fashion that that is the only way.
    And that it is just and proper too.
    @stodge was right earlier. The world has changed utterly.
    We need new thinking, but many want desperately to reach for the old comfort blankets.

    Indeed, the Tories already destroyed the welfare state and public sector. There isn't anymore to cut.

    Labour now needs to articulate the next 20 years, not the previous 20.
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    You cannot cut your way out of a recession. We are in deep and we need to invest.

    This is 2010 all over again, Labour needs to be on the correct side this time

    Was the UK in recession in 2010?

    I agree there shouldn't be cuts this year BTW, we are in recession now. But after this virus and recession is over the deficit will need dealing with.
    No thanks to Gordon Brown we'd recovered. Osborne's ideological experiment undid that and almost put us into another one.
    We hadn't recovered, we had a 10% deficit. Until that's gone you can't say we'd "recovered".

    Osborne's fantastic stewardship of the economy helped lay the foundations for a decade of growth, elimination of Brown's deficit, full employment, faster growth in the UK over the decade than the rest of our continent and the EU we were within and yet you still object.
    No deficit is not the sign of a healthy economy. Or do you think every other Tory Government that ran a deficit is also a failure?
    A deficit over the cycle at or below growth is fine. There doesn't need to be zero deficit but it needs to be managed. 10% is not managed.

    Going into this recession the UK debt-to-GDP was falling because the deficit had been brought down and was below growth.
    What percentage do you consider managed?
    Depends upon the stage of the economic cycle but about 2% as a long term average. Long term economic growth averages at about 2% so about that is acceptable but it should be countercyclical - below that (or falling) during growth times and above that during emergencies.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    Pulpstar said:

    https://twitter.com/CNNPolitics/status/1307443874185576449

    Trump wants a SCOTUS confirmed quickly because he knows its a wedge issue that wont help him

    He doesn't, he wants to use it as an incentive to get evangelicals out to vote if he is re elected, not get a justice confirmed before the election so they have less incentive to turn out while angry Liberals do
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    Austerity didn't work then, it won't work now.

    I've never understood the difference between austerity and the government not spending money it doesn't have.
    Which Government have you supported then?
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,952

    Presumably the Government has now turned "woke" with its view to eliminate the honours system.

    Or is it because it's a Tory proposal, now ok?

    Woke is an improvement on half asleep for this lot.
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    moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,244
    dixiedean said:

    Excellent insight on here tonight to yet another problem the government faces coming down the tracks.
    The scale of the economic problem dwarfs any possible cuts that can be conceivably made. There isn't much fat to be trimmed.
    Yet a faction still believe in a quasi-mystical fashion that that is the only way.
    And that it is just and proper too.
    @stodge was right earlier. The world has changed utterly.
    We need new thinking, but many want desperately to reach for the old comfort blankets.

    The truth is we are all MMT-ers now. The blurred line between fiscal and monetary policy has entirely disappeared. And the deficit hawks look like deficit dinosaurs.
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    Spending on housing, that's what the Government should do. Get to it.

    It's about the world post this crash, interest rates are at a historic low, invest properly.

    Renewables.

    Why is nobody in the political mainstream arguing for this?

    What sort of housing and where ?
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,484
    With everything going on, I hadn’t noticed AZN had also published their vaccine trial protocol, Well done.

    https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1307415684431765504
  • Options

    You cannot cut your way out of a recession. We are in deep and we need to invest.

    This is 2010 all over again, Labour needs to be on the correct side this time

    Was the UK in recession in 2010?

    I agree there shouldn't be cuts this year BTW, we are in recession now. But after this virus and recession is over the deficit will need dealing with.
    No thanks to Gordon Brown we'd recovered. Osborne's ideological experiment undid that and almost put us into another one.
    We hadn't recovered, we had a 10% deficit. Until that's gone you can't say we'd "recovered".

    Osborne's fantastic stewardship of the economy helped lay the foundations for a decade of growth, elimination of Brown's deficit, full employment, faster growth in the UK over the decade than the rest of our continent and the EU we were within and yet you still object.
    No deficit is not the sign of a healthy economy. Or do you think every other Tory Government that ran a deficit is also a failure?
    A deficit over the cycle at or below growth is fine. There doesn't need to be zero deficit but it needs to be managed. 10% is not managed.

    Going into this recession the UK debt-to-GDP was falling because the deficit had been brought down and was below growth.
    What percentage do you consider managed?
    Depends upon the stage of the economic cycle but about 2% as a long term average. Long term economic growth averages at about 2% so about that is acceptable but it should be countercyclical - below that (or falling) during growth times and above that during emergencies.
    So presumably you opposed Thatcher who ran 2.88% in 1983, Major who ran 3% in 1991, Cameron who ran 4.6% in 2015, May 2.5% in 2017 and Johnson 2.1% in 2019.

    Blair ran no deficit in 1999, 2000 and 2001, you must be a great supporter of his.

    https://countryeconomy.com/deficit/uk
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    BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    SandraMc said:

    Is Sean T around in one of his many forms? In the "Telegraph" magazine today Martin Amis is quoted as saying: "There are no other examples of a writer child from a writer parent. It makes me feel freakish". Any thoughts?.

    Mary Shelley and Mary Wollstonecraft say hi.
    Jules and Michel Verne.

    Alexandre Dumas pere and fils.
    Martin Amis obviously meant people in his league: the Shakespeares, the Goethes, the Tolstoys...
    ☺ - although Money is better than anything by those 3.
    Well, that a view I guess. I'm inclined to think though that Money will be a little-known curiosity in 400 years, while Hamlet, Macbeth, Romeo & Juliet etc. will still be playing to live audiences. And with good reason.
    I think Money will be read 500 years from now if reading is still a thing.
    To paraphrase Porson, Money will be read ... when Macbeth and Hamlet are forgotten :wink:
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    The deficit is irrelevant, grow the economy. That's what a Government should do.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Pulpstar said:

    https://twitter.com/CNNPolitics/status/1307443874185576449

    Trump wants a SCOTUS confirmed quickly because he knows its a wedge issue that wont help him

    Does he, or does he just want to dangle the carrot of what his base will get if elected.
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    MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    https://twitter.com/CNNPolitics/status/1307443874185576449

    Trump wants a SCOTUS confirmed quickly because he knows its a wedge issue that wont help him

    He doesn't, he wants to use it as an incentive to get evangelicals out to vote if he is re elected, not get a justice confirmed before the election so they have less incentive to turn out while angry Liberals do
    I don’t think Trump has a choice to be honest. Once RBG died, it was clear this would be an issue that would further incentivise those on the left. He now needs to get his base fired up. Having a nominee named but not through the Senate is a way to get evangelicals motivated.

    One thing that has been missing on the calculations here. There is a chance the Republicans could pick up two Senate seats - Minnesota and Michigan.

    I go with my initial feel. He will go with Any Coney Barrett (?) - getting Biden to go against a Catholic nominee will be on the minds of Trump
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,952
    moonshine said:

    dixiedean said:

    Excellent insight on here tonight to yet another problem the government faces coming down the tracks.
    The scale of the economic problem dwarfs any possible cuts that can be conceivably made. There isn't much fat to be trimmed.
    Yet a faction still believe in a quasi-mystical fashion that that is the only way.
    And that it is just and proper too.
    @stodge was right earlier. The world has changed utterly.
    We need new thinking, but many want desperately to reach for the old comfort blankets.

    The truth is we are all MMT-ers now. The blurred line between fiscal and monetary policy has entirely disappeared. And the deficit hawks look like deficit dinosaurs.
    The problem is that thanks to Corbyn the Tory coalition is so broad that it has advocates of entirely contradictory economic policies contained within it.
    Deficit hawks, free market fundamentalists, radical tax cutters, and tax and spenders all on the same benches.
    And with a PM of no fixed ideology who likes to be liked by all of them.
    Not ideal.
  • Options
    FishingFishing Posts: 4,561

    You cannot cut your way out of a recession. We are in deep and we need to invest.

    This is 2010 all over again, Labour needs to be on the correct side this time

    Was the UK in recession in 2010?

    I agree there shouldn't be cuts this year BTW, we are in recession now. But after this virus and recession is over the deficit will need dealing with.
    No thanks to Gordon Brown we'd recovered. Osborne's ideological experiment undid that and almost put us into another one.
    We hadn't recovered, we had a 10% deficit. Until that's gone you can't say we'd "recovered".

    Osborne's fantastic stewardship of the economy helped lay the foundations for a decade of growth, elimination of Brown's deficit, full employment, faster growth in the UK over the decade than the rest of our continent and the EU we were within and yet you still object.
    No deficit is not the sign of a healthy economy. Or do you think every other Tory Government that ran a deficit is also a failure?
    A deficit over the cycle at or below growth is fine. There doesn't need to be zero deficit but it needs to be managed. 10% is not managed.

    Going into this recession the UK debt-to-GDP was falling because the deficit had been brought down and was below growth.
    What percentage do you consider managed?
    Depends upon the stage of the economic cycle but about 2% as a long term average. Long term economic growth averages at about 2% so about that is acceptable but it should be countercyclical - below that (or falling) during growth times and above that during emergencies.
    As virtually any reputable economist would answer, it completely depends on the level of real interest rates. The answer is completely different if they are 10% or, as now, -1%.
This discussion has been closed.