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It looks as though Trump won’t press ahead with a Supreme Court nominee this side of the election –

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited September 19 in General
It looks as though Trump won’t press ahead with a Supreme Court nominee this side of the election – politicalbetting.com

The White House has confirmed that there is not enough time on the Senate calendar to confirm Trump’s Supreme Court nominee.https://t.co/A4KdukIghW via @politicususa

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 2,091
    Perhaps dangling the promise of a SCOTUS nominee after election is seen as a way to keep the base onside.

    Just as Boris left his Brexit deal hanging over an election.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 36,727
    The base will be desperate to reelect him now, but they were desperate anyway. So I think this is good news for all sensible people.
  • Perhaps Trump would just nominate his candidate so that he has sufficient "red meat" for his supporters without going through the Senate confirmation hearings?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 32,060

    Perhaps Trump would just nominate his candidate so that he has sufficient "red meat" for his supporters without going through the Senate confirmation hearings?

    Why? Let them just imagine it, for the moment. The risk is that announcing a new justice would become a campaign issue in itself, and not necessarily one fought on Trump's own turf.
  • The danger is that a lame duck Congress and Trump has the whole of November and December to throw a spanner in the works by confirming a new Justice even if they lose the election. Which is remarkable.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 34,638
    Pro_Rata said:

    Perhaps dangling the promise of a SCOTUS nominee after election is seen as a way to keep the base onside.

    Just as Boris left his Brexit deal hanging over an election.

    “Get Justice Done!”
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 8,711
    @ydoethur
    From last thread - tool to compare journey fuel cost EV vs ICE (Enables you to put in electricity and petrol/diesel costs. Charging overnight can be REALLY cheap on some suppliers)
    https://www.zap-map.com/tools/journey-cost-calculator/

    Also need to bear in mind maintenance
    https://insideevs.com/news/317307/ev-vs-ice-maintenance-the-first-100000-miles/

    Total cost of ownership if buying from new is worth comparing.
  • On topic: A surprising poll finding:


  • Wouldn't it be harder to get a Conservative nominee passed after the election even if Trump did win as the Senate numbers will be harder for them ?

    We might see a split between what Trump thinks is best for Trump and what the Republican party thinks is best for the country.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 32,060

    @ydoethur
    From last thread - tool to compare journey fuel cost EV vs ICE (Enables you to put in electricity and petrol/diesel costs. Charging overnight can be REALLY cheap on some suppliers)
    https://www.zap-map.com/tools/journey-cost-calculator/

    Also need to bear in mind maintenance
    https://insideevs.com/news/317307/ev-vs-ice-maintenance-the-first-100000-miles/

    Total cost of ownership if buying from new is worth comparing.

    Thank you, I will have a play with it.

    But I haven't yet seen anything that alters my view that we are still a long way from having mass electric cars. Certainly unless there are dramatic improvements in the next six months (that being about the time I will need to replace my car) I don't think I will be going for one given how much and where I drive.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 10,706

    The danger is that a lame duck Congress and Trump has the whole of November and December to throw a spanner in the works by confirming a new Justice even if they lose the election. Which is remarkable.

    Kelly and another senator are on “special elections” and thus take their seats early. Could be enough if Romney etc vote against.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 17,396
    Hugely surprising to me. Will need to see the exact question wording.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 34,638
    4422 Covid cases and 27 deaths.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 42,596
    I wondered why #COVIDIOTS was trending......
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 29,075
    I see the US population-adjusted death rate has just overtaken ours
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 42,596
    I'm sure this has been filed away for the GE:

  • Alistair said:

    Hugely surprising to me. Will need to see the exact question wording.

    The change since 2016 is perhaps the key thing.

    This also struck me as an interesting comment:


  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 8,711
    ydoethur said:

    @ydoethur
    From last thread - tool to compare journey fuel cost EV vs ICE (Enables you to put in electricity and petrol/diesel costs. Charging overnight can be REALLY cheap on some suppliers)
    https://www.zap-map.com/tools/journey-cost-calculator/

    Also need to bear in mind maintenance
    https://insideevs.com/news/317307/ev-vs-ice-maintenance-the-first-100000-miles/

    Total cost of ownership if buying from new is worth comparing.

    Thank you, I will have a play with it.

    But I haven't yet seen anything that alters my view that we are still a long way from having mass electric cars. Certainly unless there are dramatic improvements in the next six months (that being about the time I will need to replace my car) I don't think I will be going for one given how much and where I drive.
    I tend to agree with the timing, my diesel DS3 is 10 years old and will need replacing at some point but I've driven much less since Coronavirus. Plus the EVs are improving and proliferating at an amazing rate. However, I can't see myself buying a new ICE car ever again - maybe a 2nd hand one to fill in for a year or two.
    Next year could see Tesla prices start to come down and range to improve, see what Elon has to say on Tuesday.
    I think you will be surprised at how fast the changeover happens once the prices are right - the 'S' curve is quite steep. I'm seeing Plenty of Teslas locally already.
    https://marketrealist.imgix.net/uploads/2015/12/Technology-Adoption.png?w=660&fit=max&auto=format
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 17,396
    edited September 19

    Alistair said:

    Hugely surprising to me. Will need to see the exact question wording.

    The change since 2016 is perhaps the key thing.

    This also struck me as an interesting comment:


    The main thing I'm wondering about is an ordering affect

    1) Do you think what happened in 2016 was shit?
    2) Do you agree there should be confirmation hearings in 2020?

    is a different proposition from

    1) Is it okay to delay nomination when voting has already started for an election 50 days out?
    2) Do you think it was right to block a nomination for 9 months?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 42,596
    "Surprise attack"?



    Socialist Worker Gruaniad
  • stodgestodge Posts: 7,479
    Late afternoon all :)

    There's a fin-de-l'ete feel about the day as the realities of autumn are drawing nearer.

    There's also a state poll from Missouri which shows Trump up 53-45.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/docs/2020/MO_Scout_September_2020.pdf

    In 2016, Trump won Missouri 57-38 so that's a 5.5% swing to Biden which we've been seeing in some of the GOP strongholds. Margin of Error on the poll is 3%.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 7,887
    TdF a bit tasty...
  • "Surprise attack"?



    Socialist Worker Gruaniad
    It makes you despair
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 36,727

    "Surprise attack"?



    Socialist Worker Gruaniad
    It makes you despair
    Who are the police in red hats?
  • "Surprise attack"?



    Socialist Worker Gruaniad
    It makes you despair
    Who are the police in red hats?
    I have no idea
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 36,380
    edited September 19
    Scott_xP said:
    And just how does that help

    Encouraging people to breach the rules is asinine
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 2,565
    ydoethur said:

    @ydoethur
    From last thread - tool to compare journey fuel cost EV vs ICE (Enables you to put in electricity and petrol/diesel costs. Charging overnight can be REALLY cheap on some suppliers)
    https://www.zap-map.com/tools/journey-cost-calculator/

    Also need to bear in mind maintenance
    https://insideevs.com/news/317307/ev-vs-ice-maintenance-the-first-100000-miles/

    Total cost of ownership if buying from new is worth comparing.

    Thank you, I will have a play with it.

    But I haven't yet seen anything that alters my view that we are still a long way from having mass electric cars. Certainly unless there are dramatic improvements in the next six months (that being about the time I will need to replace my car) I don't think I will be going for one given how much and where I drive.
    From your descriptions of your specific requirements, I think we’re about 3-4 years away from what you want. Mind you, when that’s there, EVs have won.

    When ranges have doubled (to a standard of all cars being between 400-800 miles depending on what you’re looking for), 150-350kW charging capability is routine (a 150kW charger can put 60 miles charge in a battery in 6 minutes; a 350kW charger can do 140 miles in the same time), and prices are comparable to ICE cars, it’s done.

    And the rate of improvement in battery density and prices is going that way, as is the adoption of ultra-fast charging. It’s there or thereabouts for many people already, and more and more people will be in the category of “it suits me now” as time goes on.
  • I'm sure this has been filed away for the GE:

    I don't get why this is controversial. Here in Thornaby-on-Tees local Labour activists in their 60s describe their fellow townspeople as Parochial Bigots. And not incomers like me, these are was born here have only lived here and will die here activists. The town votes for the local independent party who rants on about the evils of the people on the Stockton (County Durham) side of the River. His eminence the Mayor-for-Life posted a very funny 3am Facebook rant against me that having not been born here I would never get here and would be better "going home" to Rochdale.

    And that's against people not from Yorkshire. People are increasingly openly against anyone who isn't exactly like them, and foreigners are an easy target. Its not hard right racism, just petty bigotry. And the kind of seats like Lavery mentions are riddled with exactly the kind of white working class people like Rochdale's Mrs "Bigoted Woman" Duffy and frankly my dad who whilst not being explicitly racist are more than happy to label non-whites by their skin colour and cast aspersions based on that.

    The media have a lot of the blame for whipping this up though. Anti-foreigner stories endlessly in their newspapers is how you end up with white people in a town that is almost entirely white saying that the country is too full of migrants like the ones that they can't see as they don't exist locally.
  • On topic, it makes absolute sense for Trump to delay the Supreme Court decision.

    Re-elect Trump and He will appoint a God-fearing real American who will defend your way of life
    Or vote for Biden and he will appoint a liberal anti-Christ who will make it illegal not to eat Quinoa
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 8,776
    Wow!
    What a finish to Tour de France. What odds could you have got on that?
    Pogacar overturns a 57 second deficit on final time trial to win by nearly a minute.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 36,727
    Scott_xP said:
    Might be an underestimate with the current shower in charge.
  • I'm sure this has been filed away for the GE:

    I don't get why this is controversial. Here in Thornaby-on-Tees local Labour activists in their 60s describe their fellow townspeople as Parochial Bigots. And not incomers like me, these are was born here have only lived here and will die here activists. The town votes for the local independent party who rants on about the evils of the people on the Stockton (County Durham) side of the River. His eminence the Mayor-for-Life posted a very funny 3am Facebook rant against me that having not been born here I would never get here and would be better "going home" to Rochdale.

    And that's against people not from Yorkshire. People are increasingly openly against anyone who isn't exactly like them, and foreigners are an easy target. Its not hard right racism, just petty bigotry. And the kind of seats like Lavery mentions are riddled with exactly the kind of white working class people like Rochdale's Mrs "Bigoted Woman" Duffy and frankly my dad who whilst not being explicitly racist are more than happy to label non-whites by their skin colour and cast aspersions based on that.

    The media have a lot of the blame for whipping this up though. Anti-foreigner stories endlessly in their newspapers is how you end up with white people in a town that is almost entirely white saying that the country is too full of migrants like the ones that they can't see as they don't exist locally.
    Wait so the story here is "man nods head"?

    I sometimes nod my head when I'm listening, I must be more careful as I never thought it implied agreement.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 78,329
    Trump clearly wants to keep the issue of a new Justice live on election day to maximise evangelical turnout
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 42,596
    edited September 19
    A New Yorker opines:



    Edit - I see he's from Carsnootie, which would explain a lot....
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 7,887
    dixiedean said:

    Wow!
    What a finish to Tour de France. What odds could you have got on that?
    Pogacar overturns a 57 second deficit on final time trial to win by nearly a minute.

  • alex_alex_ Posts: 3,155

    Scott_xP said:
    And just how does that help

    Encouraging people to breach the rules is asinine
    God knows how you would react to actual gallows humour.


  • No and thank God for that.

    Social democrats are in charge now
  • I hope Labour will back PR
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 1,209
    Scott_xP said:
    Looks like the Republican line to justify a pick will be that, while Obama could not be re-elected in 2016 because of term limits - and so his nominee was chosen by a lame duck President - Trump is up for re-election so has the right to choose his nominee.

  • A New Yorker opines:



    Edit - I see he's from Carsnootie, which would explain a lot....
    Unionists hate to see themselves revealed for what they are.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 7,887
    MrEd said:

    Looks like the Republican line to justify a pick will be that, while Obama could not be re-elected in 2016 because of term limits - and so his nominee was chosen by a lame duck President - Trump is up for re-election so has the right to choose his nominee.

    Is the head of the pin large enough..?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 42,596

    I'm sure this has been filed away for the GE:

    I don't get why this is controversial. Here in Thornaby-on-Tees local Labour activists in their 60s describe their fellow townspeople as Parochial Bigots.
    It may be true - but is it wise to agree with?

    "Are you a Leave voter? Sir Keir Starmer thinks you're racist"
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 7,672
    UK cases, by specimen date, scaled to 100K population

    image
  • I'm sure this has been filed away for the GE:

    I don't get why this is controversial. Here in Thornaby-on-Tees local Labour activists in their 60s describe their fellow townspeople as Parochial Bigots.
    It may be true - but is it wise to agree with?

    "Are you a Leave voter? Sir Keir Starmer thinks you're racist"
    Sir Keir does not think you're a racist, oh okay then.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 7,672
    UK cases by specimen date

    image
  • Is it Opinium tonight?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 7,887

    Unionists hate to see themselves revealed for what they are.

    Oh...

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 7,672
    UK cases summary

    image
    image
    image
    image
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 7,672
    UK deaths

    image
    image
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 42,596
    edited September 19

    A New Yorker opines:



    Edit - I see he's from Carsnootie, which would explain a lot....
    Unionists hate to see themselves revealed for what they are.
    If the McLuvvies are so fond of the SNP, why do so few (any?) of them live in Scotland?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 7,672
    UK hospitals

    image
    image
  • felixfelix Posts: 11,019

    I'm sure this has been filed away for the GE:

    I don't get why this is controversial. Here in Thornaby-on-Tees local Labour activists in their 60s describe their fellow townspeople as Parochial Bigots. And not incomers like me, these are was born here have only lived here and will die here activists. The town votes for the local independent party who rants on about the evils of the people on the Stockton (County Durham) side of the River. His eminence the Mayor-for-Life posted a very funny 3am Facebook rant against me that having not been born here I would never get here and would be better "going home" to Rochdale.

    And that's against people not from Yorkshire. People are increasingly openly against anyone who isn't exactly like them, and foreigners are an easy target. Its not hard right racism, just petty bigotry. And the kind of seats like Lavery mentions are riddled with exactly the kind of white working class people like Rochdale's Mrs "Bigoted Woman" Duffy and frankly my dad who whilst not being explicitly racist are more than happy to label non-whites by their skin colour and cast aspersions based on that.

    The media have a lot of the blame for whipping this up though. Anti-foreigner stories endlessly in their newspapers is how you end up with white people in a town that is almost entirely white saying that the country is too full of migrants like the ones that they can't see as they don't exist locally.
    Wait so the story here is "man nods head"?

    I sometimes nod my head when I'm listening, I must be more careful as I never thought it implied agreement.
    Ahem - yeah .. it really does.
  • felix said:

    I'm sure this has been filed away for the GE:

    I don't get why this is controversial. Here in Thornaby-on-Tees local Labour activists in their 60s describe their fellow townspeople as Parochial Bigots. And not incomers like me, these are was born here have only lived here and will die here activists. The town votes for the local independent party who rants on about the evils of the people on the Stockton (County Durham) side of the River. His eminence the Mayor-for-Life posted a very funny 3am Facebook rant against me that having not been born here I would never get here and would be better "going home" to Rochdale.

    And that's against people not from Yorkshire. People are increasingly openly against anyone who isn't exactly like them, and foreigners are an easy target. Its not hard right racism, just petty bigotry. And the kind of seats like Lavery mentions are riddled with exactly the kind of white working class people like Rochdale's Mrs "Bigoted Woman" Duffy and frankly my dad who whilst not being explicitly racist are more than happy to label non-whites by their skin colour and cast aspersions based on that.

    The media have a lot of the blame for whipping this up though. Anti-foreigner stories endlessly in their newspapers is how you end up with white people in a town that is almost entirely white saying that the country is too full of migrants like the ones that they can't see as they don't exist locally.
    Wait so the story here is "man nods head"?

    I sometimes nod my head when I'm listening, I must be more careful as I never thought it implied agreement.
    Ahem - yeah .. it really does.
    Well I'll be sure to be more careful, I do it subconsciously to let them know I am listening.

    I was watching an interview with Gabriel Pogrund last night, he was nodding his head a lot and I highly doubt he agreed with anything Aaron Bastani was saying
  • So hospitalisations are going back up again (England is back at where it was in July?) and the death rate is also trending up.

    If I have misunderstood please do correct me but that's not good at all
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 7,672

    So hospitalisations are going back up again (England is back at where it was in July?) and the death rate is also trending up.

    If I have misunderstood please do correct me but that's not good at all

    Yes, it is not good.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 32,060
    edited September 19

    ydoethur said:

    @ydoethur
    From last thread - tool to compare journey fuel cost EV vs ICE (Enables you to put in electricity and petrol/diesel costs. Charging overnight can be REALLY cheap on some suppliers)
    https://www.zap-map.com/tools/journey-cost-calculator/

    Also need to bear in mind maintenance
    https://insideevs.com/news/317307/ev-vs-ice-maintenance-the-first-100000-miles/

    Total cost of ownership if buying from new is worth comparing.

    Thank you, I will have a play with it.

    But I haven't yet seen anything that alters my view that we are still a long way from having mass electric cars. Certainly unless there are dramatic improvements in the next six months (that being about the time I will need to replace my car) I don't think I will be going for one given how much and where I drive.
    From your descriptions of your specific requirements, I think we’re about 3-4 years away from what you want. Mind you, when that’s there, EVs have won.

    When ranges have doubled (to a standard of all cars being between 400-800 miles depending on what you’re looking for), 150-350kW charging capability is routine (a 150kW charger can put 60 miles charge in a battery in 6 minutes; a 350kW charger can do 140 miles in the same time), and prices are comparable to ICE cars, it’s done.

    And the rate of improvement in battery density and prices is going that way, as is the adoption of ultra-fast charging. It’s there or thereabouts for many people already, and more and more people will be in the category of “it suits me now” as time goes on.
    Yes, that's possible. But don't forget one other thing. Before we can switch to mass EVs, we need to generate sufficient electricity to power them.

    In 2017 55 million barrels of oil were used to power our transport network. The whole of our electrical output was equivalent to just 17.1 million barrels of oil.

    So just to convert transport, we need to more than triple our electricity supply. OK, it will be less than that because ships and probably lorries will not be converted to electricity (more probably hydrogen) and that will amount to at a guess 50% of consumption. But it's still a large figure.

    And that's before we talk about gas, which the government also wants to replace, and which was used for the equivalent of 34 million barrels of direct energy (not including gas used to generate electricity)

    Add those together and we're looking at a need for a sixfold increase in electricity generation to stand still - and demand is also set to grow.

    Finally we need to make sure our grid can cope with that level of demand.

    So it's not just about the technology.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 1,540

    I'm sure this has been filed away for the GE:

    I don't get why this is controversial. Here in Thornaby-on-Tees local Labour activists in their 60s describe their fellow townspeople as Parochial Bigots. And not incomers like me, these are was born here have only lived here and will die here activists. The town votes for the local independent party who rants on about the evils of the people on the Stockton (County Durham) side of the River. His eminence the Mayor-for-Life posted a very funny 3am Facebook rant against me that having not been born here I would never get here and would be better "going home" to Rochdale.

    And that's against people not from Yorkshire. People are increasingly openly against anyone who isn't exactly like them, and foreigners are an easy target. Its not hard right racism, just petty bigotry. And the kind of seats like Lavery mentions are riddled with exactly the kind of white working class people like Rochdale's Mrs "Bigoted Woman" Duffy and frankly my dad who whilst not being explicitly racist are more than happy to label non-whites by their skin colour and cast aspersions based on that.

    The media have a lot of the blame for whipping this up though. Anti-foreigner stories endlessly in their newspapers is how you end up with white people in a town that is almost entirely white saying that the country is too full of migrants like the ones that they can't see as they don't exist locally.
    Just a thought that appears not to have crossed your mind. Sometimes locals have very good reasons for resenting incomers. Not always but sometimes. Where I come from in Cornwall for instance my home town the incomers have pushed house prices out of all recognition buying up their second homes. Shops have changed out of all recognition to cater to them as well and come winter everything shuts and the place becomes a damn ghost town.

    As an example my mother got offered the chance to buy her council house under right to buy and looked into it and found she couldn't afford it even with the maximum discount. Her two bedroom prefab 1960's bungalow apparently had a market price of 500K

    Why shouldn't the locals resent that?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 78,329
    edited September 19
    HYUFD said:

    Trump clearly wants to keep the issue of a new Justice live on election day to maximise evangelical turnout

    In 2004 Bush won 78% of evangelicals and they made up 23% of the electorate

    In 2008 McCain's share of evangelicals fell to 74% but their share of the electorate rose to 26%

    In 2012 Romney increased his share of evangelicals back to the 78% Bush got though their share of the electorate remained unchanged at 26%

    In 2016 Trump got the highest share of the evangelical vote yet at 81% though their voteshare again remained at 26%.

    In November Trump will therefore not only be aiming to keep his share of evangelicals over 80% but to drive their turnout close to 30% of the electorate given the chance of a pro life Justice to replace a pro choice Justice

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_United_States_presidential_election
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_United_States_presidential_election
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_United_States_presidential_election
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidential_election

    The last Democrat to win the evangelical vote was Carter in 1976, since then they have played a key part in the winning Republican campaigns of Reagan, Bush 41 once and Bush 43 twice and Trump
  • Pagan2 said:

    I'm sure this has been filed away for the GE:

    I don't get why this is controversial. Here in Thornaby-on-Tees local Labour activists in their 60s describe their fellow townspeople as Parochial Bigots. And not incomers like me, these are was born here have only lived here and will die here activists. The town votes for the local independent party who rants on about the evils of the people on the Stockton (County Durham) side of the River. His eminence the Mayor-for-Life posted a very funny 3am Facebook rant against me that having not been born here I would never get here and would be better "going home" to Rochdale.

    And that's against people not from Yorkshire. People are increasingly openly against anyone who isn't exactly like them, and foreigners are an easy target. Its not hard right racism, just petty bigotry. And the kind of seats like Lavery mentions are riddled with exactly the kind of white working class people like Rochdale's Mrs "Bigoted Woman" Duffy and frankly my dad who whilst not being explicitly racist are more than happy to label non-whites by their skin colour and cast aspersions based on that.

    The media have a lot of the blame for whipping this up though. Anti-foreigner stories endlessly in their newspapers is how you end up with white people in a town that is almost entirely white saying that the country is too full of migrants like the ones that they can't see as they don't exist locally.
    Just a thought that appears not to have crossed your mind. Sometimes locals have very good reasons for resenting incomers. Not always but sometimes. Where I come from in Cornwall for instance my home town the incomers have pushed house prices out of all recognition buying up their second homes. Shops have changed out of all recognition to cater to them as well and come winter everything shuts and the place becomes a damn ghost town.

    As an example my mother got offered the chance to buy her council house under right to buy and looked into it and found she couldn't afford it even with the maximum discount. Her two bedroom prefab 1960's bungalow apparently had a market price of 500K

    Why shouldn't the locals resent that?
    I think resenting specific people is fine but I think it's when we tar every person with the same brush that some might find difficulty. I am not saying that is what you are doing here.
  • felixfelix Posts: 11,019

    felix said:

    I'm sure this has been filed away for the GE:

    I don't get why this is controversial. Here in Thornaby-on-Tees local Labour activists in their 60s describe their fellow townspeople as Parochial Bigots. And not incomers like me, these are was born here have only lived here and will die here activists. The town votes for the local independent party who rants on about the evils of the people on the Stockton (County Durham) side of the River. His eminence the Mayor-for-Life posted a very funny 3am Facebook rant against me that having not been born here I would never get here and would be better "going home" to Rochdale.

    And that's against people not from Yorkshire. People are increasingly openly against anyone who isn't exactly like them, and foreigners are an easy target. Its not hard right racism, just petty bigotry. And the kind of seats like Lavery mentions are riddled with exactly the kind of white working class people like Rochdale's Mrs "Bigoted Woman" Duffy and frankly my dad who whilst not being explicitly racist are more than happy to label non-whites by their skin colour and cast aspersions based on that.

    The media have a lot of the blame for whipping this up though. Anti-foreigner stories endlessly in their newspapers is how you end up with white people in a town that is almost entirely white saying that the country is too full of migrants like the ones that they can't see as they don't exist locally.
    Wait so the story here is "man nods head"?

    I sometimes nod my head when I'm listening, I must be more careful as I never thought it implied agreement.
    Ahem - yeah .. it really does.
    Well I'll be sure to be more careful, I do it subconsciously to let them know I am listening.

    I was watching an interview with Gabriel Pogrund last night, he was nodding his head a lot and I highly doubt he agreed with anything Aaron Bastani was saying
    Your sycophantic support for Starmer would be more credible if you could just occasionally acknowledge his faults. This is not a big story but it is entirely believeable that many in the party, including Starmer, have a thinly veiled contempt for some of their erstwhile supporters. it has been well documented over the years - ask Gordon.
  • felix said:

    I'm sure this has been filed away for the GE:

    I don't get why this is controversial. Here in Thornaby-on-Tees local Labour activists in their 60s describe their fellow townspeople as Parochial Bigots. And not incomers like me, these are was born here have only lived here and will die here activists. The town votes for the local independent party who rants on about the evils of the people on the Stockton (County Durham) side of the River. His eminence the Mayor-for-Life posted a very funny 3am Facebook rant against me that having not been born here I would never get here and would be better "going home" to Rochdale.

    And that's against people not from Yorkshire. People are increasingly openly against anyone who isn't exactly like them, and foreigners are an easy target. Its not hard right racism, just petty bigotry. And the kind of seats like Lavery mentions are riddled with exactly the kind of white working class people like Rochdale's Mrs "Bigoted Woman" Duffy and frankly my dad who whilst not being explicitly racist are more than happy to label non-whites by their skin colour and cast aspersions based on that.

    The media have a lot of the blame for whipping this up though. Anti-foreigner stories endlessly in their newspapers is how you end up with white people in a town that is almost entirely white saying that the country is too full of migrants like the ones that they can't see as they don't exist locally.
    Wait so the story here is "man nods head"?

    I sometimes nod my head when I'm listening, I must be more careful as I never thought it implied agreement.
    Ahem - yeah .. it really does.
    Good eveing all. If Starmer disagreed with Abbott's analysis perhaps he should have said so.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 7,672
    edited September 19
    Updated the case discovery rate graphs

    image
    image
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 33,140
    Desperate defending yet again by United.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 1,540

    Pagan2 said:

    I'm sure this has been filed away for the GE:

    I don't get why this is controversial. Here in Thornaby-on-Tees local Labour activists in their 60s describe their fellow townspeople as Parochial Bigots. And not incomers like me, these are was born here have only lived here and will die here activists. The town votes for the local independent party who rants on about the evils of the people on the Stockton (County Durham) side of the River. His eminence the Mayor-for-Life posted a very funny 3am Facebook rant against me that having not been born here I would never get here and would be better "going home" to Rochdale.

    And that's against people not from Yorkshire. People are increasingly openly against anyone who isn't exactly like them, and foreigners are an easy target. Its not hard right racism, just petty bigotry. And the kind of seats like Lavery mentions are riddled with exactly the kind of white working class people like Rochdale's Mrs "Bigoted Woman" Duffy and frankly my dad who whilst not being explicitly racist are more than happy to label non-whites by their skin colour and cast aspersions based on that.

    The media have a lot of the blame for whipping this up though. Anti-foreigner stories endlessly in their newspapers is how you end up with white people in a town that is almost entirely white saying that the country is too full of migrants like the ones that they can't see as they don't exist locally.
    Just a thought that appears not to have crossed your mind. Sometimes locals have very good reasons for resenting incomers. Not always but sometimes. Where I come from in Cornwall for instance my home town the incomers have pushed house prices out of all recognition buying up their second homes. Shops have changed out of all recognition to cater to them as well and come winter everything shuts and the place becomes a damn ghost town.

    As an example my mother got offered the chance to buy her council house under right to buy and looked into it and found she couldn't afford it even with the maximum discount. Her two bedroom prefab 1960's bungalow apparently had a market price of 500K

    Why shouldn't the locals resent that?
    I think resenting specific people is fine but I think it's when we tar every person with the same brush that some might find difficulty. I am not saying that is what you are doing here.
    It was abbot , starmer and rochdale doing the tarring all those people with a brush. I merely pointed out that yes sometimes in someplaces locals have good solid reasons to resent incomers
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 8,776
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Trump clearly wants to keep the issue of a new Justice live on election day to maximise evangelical turnout

    In 2004 Bush won 78% of evangelicals and they made up 23% of the electorate

    In 2008 McCain's share of evangelicals fell to 74% but their share of the electorate rose to 26%

    In 2012 Romney increased his share of evangelicals back to the 78% Bush got though their share of the electorate remained unchanged at 26%

    In 2016 Trump got the highest share of the evangelical vote yet at 81% though their voteshare again remained at 26%.

    In November Trump will therefore not only be aiming to keep his share of evangelicals over 80% but to drive their turnout close to 30% of the electorate given the chance of a pro life Justice to replace a pro choice Justice

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_United_States_presidential_election
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_United_States_presidential_election
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_United_States_presidential_election
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidential_election

    The last Democrat to win the evangelical vote was Carter in 1976, since then they have played a key part in the winning Republican campaigns of Reagan, Bush 41 once and Bush 43 twice and Trump
    The proportion of Americans identifying as Evangelical, (and indeed Christian), is falling though.
    So really he has to work hard to stand still with them.
  • felix said:

    felix said:

    I'm sure this has been filed away for the GE:

    I don't get why this is controversial. Here in Thornaby-on-Tees local Labour activists in their 60s describe their fellow townspeople as Parochial Bigots. And not incomers like me, these are was born here have only lived here and will die here activists. The town votes for the local independent party who rants on about the evils of the people on the Stockton (County Durham) side of the River. His eminence the Mayor-for-Life posted a very funny 3am Facebook rant against me that having not been born here I would never get here and would be better "going home" to Rochdale.

    And that's against people not from Yorkshire. People are increasingly openly against anyone who isn't exactly like them, and foreigners are an easy target. Its not hard right racism, just petty bigotry. And the kind of seats like Lavery mentions are riddled with exactly the kind of white working class people like Rochdale's Mrs "Bigoted Woman" Duffy and frankly my dad who whilst not being explicitly racist are more than happy to label non-whites by their skin colour and cast aspersions based on that.

    The media have a lot of the blame for whipping this up though. Anti-foreigner stories endlessly in their newspapers is how you end up with white people in a town that is almost entirely white saying that the country is too full of migrants like the ones that they can't see as they don't exist locally.
    Wait so the story here is "man nods head"?

    I sometimes nod my head when I'm listening, I must be more careful as I never thought it implied agreement.
    Ahem - yeah .. it really does.
    Well I'll be sure to be more careful, I do it subconsciously to let them know I am listening.

    I was watching an interview with Gabriel Pogrund last night, he was nodding his head a lot and I highly doubt he agreed with anything Aaron Bastani was saying
    Your sycophantic support for Starmer would be more credible if you could just occasionally acknowledge his faults. This is not a big story but it is entirely believeable that many in the party, including Starmer, have a thinly veiled contempt for some of their erstwhile supporters. it has been well documented over the years - ask Gordon.
    Whatever mate, I thought I made a perfectly reasonable point about my own experience with nodding a head not automatically meaning agreement (and gave another example) but irrespective of that, if Keir was agreeing then obviously that's no way to win an election.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 8,776

    Pagan2 said:

    I'm sure this has been filed away for the GE:

    I don't get why this is controversial. Here in Thornaby-on-Tees local Labour activists in their 60s describe their fellow townspeople as Parochial Bigots. And not incomers like me, these are was born here have only lived here and will die here activists. The town votes for the local independent party who rants on about the evils of the people on the Stockton (County Durham) side of the River. His eminence the Mayor-for-Life posted a very funny 3am Facebook rant against me that having not been born here I would never get here and would be better "going home" to Rochdale.

    And that's against people not from Yorkshire. People are increasingly openly against anyone who isn't exactly like them, and foreigners are an easy target. Its not hard right racism, just petty bigotry. And the kind of seats like Lavery mentions are riddled with exactly the kind of white working class people like Rochdale's Mrs "Bigoted Woman" Duffy and frankly my dad who whilst not being explicitly racist are more than happy to label non-whites by their skin colour and cast aspersions based on that.

    The media have a lot of the blame for whipping this up though. Anti-foreigner stories endlessly in their newspapers is how you end up with white people in a town that is almost entirely white saying that the country is too full of migrants like the ones that they can't see as they don't exist locally.
    Just a thought that appears not to have crossed your mind. Sometimes locals have very good reasons for resenting incomers. Not always but sometimes. Where I come from in Cornwall for instance my home town the incomers have pushed house prices out of all recognition buying up their second homes. Shops have changed out of all recognition to cater to them as well and come winter everything shuts and the place becomes a damn ghost town.

    As an example my mother got offered the chance to buy her council house under right to buy and looked into it and found she couldn't afford it even with the maximum discount. Her two bedroom prefab 1960's bungalow apparently had a market price of 500K

    Why shouldn't the locals resent that?
    I think resenting specific people is fine but I think it's when we tar every person with the same brush that some might find difficulty. I am not saying that is what you are doing here.
    Also, I doubt second home owners are much of an issue in Thornaby.
  • Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I'm sure this has been filed away for the GE:

    I don't get why this is controversial. Here in Thornaby-on-Tees local Labour activists in their 60s describe their fellow townspeople as Parochial Bigots. And not incomers like me, these are was born here have only lived here and will die here activists. The town votes for the local independent party who rants on about the evils of the people on the Stockton (County Durham) side of the River. His eminence the Mayor-for-Life posted a very funny 3am Facebook rant against me that having not been born here I would never get here and would be better "going home" to Rochdale.

    And that's against people not from Yorkshire. People are increasingly openly against anyone who isn't exactly like them, and foreigners are an easy target. Its not hard right racism, just petty bigotry. And the kind of seats like Lavery mentions are riddled with exactly the kind of white working class people like Rochdale's Mrs "Bigoted Woman" Duffy and frankly my dad who whilst not being explicitly racist are more than happy to label non-whites by their skin colour and cast aspersions based on that.

    The media have a lot of the blame for whipping this up though. Anti-foreigner stories endlessly in their newspapers is how you end up with white people in a town that is almost entirely white saying that the country is too full of migrants like the ones that they can't see as they don't exist locally.
    Just a thought that appears not to have crossed your mind. Sometimes locals have very good reasons for resenting incomers. Not always but sometimes. Where I come from in Cornwall for instance my home town the incomers have pushed house prices out of all recognition buying up their second homes. Shops have changed out of all recognition to cater to them as well and come winter everything shuts and the place becomes a damn ghost town.

    As an example my mother got offered the chance to buy her council house under right to buy and looked into it and found she couldn't afford it even with the maximum discount. Her two bedroom prefab 1960's bungalow apparently had a market price of 500K

    Why shouldn't the locals resent that?
    I think resenting specific people is fine but I think it's when we tar every person with the same brush that some might find difficulty. I am not saying that is what you are doing here.
    It was abbot , starmer and rochdale doing the tarring all those people with a brush. I merely pointed out that yes sometimes in someplaces locals have good solid reasons to resent incomers
    So basically it's okay to resent people as long as they're people you personally don't like, is that the conclusion? Then you might be called a hypocrite.

    My concern would be around - for example - that say "Romanians are coming here to steal our jobs". They aren't coming here to steal anything, in many cases they're doing jobs the British refuse to do like cleaning loos. Or working in the NHS, or keeping our elderly people alive.

    Are we to resent those "incomers"? Or you agree that we should make distinctions.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 7,672
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    @ydoethur
    From last thread - tool to compare journey fuel cost EV vs ICE (Enables you to put in electricity and petrol/diesel costs. Charging overnight can be REALLY cheap on some suppliers)
    https://www.zap-map.com/tools/journey-cost-calculator/

    Also need to bear in mind maintenance
    https://insideevs.com/news/317307/ev-vs-ice-maintenance-the-first-100000-miles/

    Total cost of ownership if buying from new is worth comparing.

    Thank you, I will have a play with it.

    But I haven't yet seen anything that alters my view that we are still a long way from having mass electric cars. Certainly unless there are dramatic improvements in the next six months (that being about the time I will need to replace my car) I don't think I will be going for one given how much and where I drive.
    From your descriptions of your specific requirements, I think we’re about 3-4 years away from what you want. Mind you, when that’s there, EVs have won.

    When ranges have doubled (to a standard of all cars being between 400-800 miles depending on what you’re looking for), 150-350kW charging capability is routine (a 150kW charger can put 60 miles charge in a battery in 6 minutes; a 350kW charger can do 140 miles in the same time), and prices are comparable to ICE cars, it’s done.

    And the rate of improvement in battery density and prices is going that way, as is the adoption of ultra-fast charging. It’s there or thereabouts for many people already, and more and more people will be in the category of “it suits me now” as time goes on.
    Yes, that's possible. But don't forget one other thing. Before we can switch to mass EVs, we need to generate sufficient electricity to power them.

    In 2017 55 million barrels of oil were used to power our transport network. The whole of our electrical output was equivalent to just 17.1 million barrels of oil.

    So just to convert transport, we need to more than triple our electricity supply. OK, it will be less than that because ships and probably lorries will not be converted to electricity (more probably hydrogen) and that will amount to at a guess 50% of consumption. But it's still a large figure.

    And that's before we talk about gas, which the government also wants to replace, and which was used for the equivalent of 34 million barrels of direct energy (not including gas used to generate electricity)

    Add those together and we're looking at a need for a sixfold increase in electricity generation to stand still - and demand is also set to grow.

    Finally we need to make sure our grid can cope with that level of demand.

    So it's not just about the technology.
    Lorries are going to go electric next.

    As to the demand for electricity - yes, it will require an enormous build out.
  • felix said:

    I'm sure this has been filed away for the GE:

    I don't get why this is controversial. Here in Thornaby-on-Tees local Labour activists in their 60s describe their fellow townspeople as Parochial Bigots. And not incomers like me, these are was born here have only lived here and will die here activists. The town votes for the local independent party who rants on about the evils of the people on the Stockton (County Durham) side of the River. His eminence the Mayor-for-Life posted a very funny 3am Facebook rant against me that having not been born here I would never get here and would be better "going home" to Rochdale.

    And that's against people not from Yorkshire. People are increasingly openly against anyone who isn't exactly like them, and foreigners are an easy target. Its not hard right racism, just petty bigotry. And the kind of seats like Lavery mentions are riddled with exactly the kind of white working class people like Rochdale's Mrs "Bigoted Woman" Duffy and frankly my dad who whilst not being explicitly racist are more than happy to label non-whites by their skin colour and cast aspersions based on that.

    The media have a lot of the blame for whipping this up though. Anti-foreigner stories endlessly in their newspapers is how you end up with white people in a town that is almost entirely white saying that the country is too full of migrants like the ones that they can't see as they don't exist locally.
    Wait so the story here is "man nods head"?

    I sometimes nod my head when I'm listening, I must be more careful as I never thought it implied agreement.
    Ahem - yeah .. it really does.
    Good eveing all. If Starmer disagreed with Abbott's analysis perhaps he should have said so.
    That's exactly right, we are to conclude he agreed.

    Which even if he does, the optics are not good at all.
  • DavidL said:

    Desperate defending yet again by United.

    I broke a rib laughing yesterday when I found out that when Fergie retired he had lined up Thiago Alcantara as a welcome present but Moyes said no to the transfer because he hadn't seen Thiago play, so you ended up with Marouane Fellaini.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 1,540
    dixiedean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I'm sure this has been filed away for the GE:

    I don't get why this is controversial. Here in Thornaby-on-Tees local Labour activists in their 60s describe their fellow townspeople as Parochial Bigots. And not incomers like me, these are was born here have only lived here and will die here activists. The town votes for the local independent party who rants on about the evils of the people on the Stockton (County Durham) side of the River. His eminence the Mayor-for-Life posted a very funny 3am Facebook rant against me that having not been born here I would never get here and would be better "going home" to Rochdale.

    And that's against people not from Yorkshire. People are increasingly openly against anyone who isn't exactly like them, and foreigners are an easy target. Its not hard right racism, just petty bigotry. And the kind of seats like Lavery mentions are riddled with exactly the kind of white working class people like Rochdale's Mrs "Bigoted Woman" Duffy and frankly my dad who whilst not being explicitly racist are more than happy to label non-whites by their skin colour and cast aspersions based on that.

    The media have a lot of the blame for whipping this up though. Anti-foreigner stories endlessly in their newspapers is how you end up with white people in a town that is almost entirely white saying that the country is too full of migrants like the ones that they can't see as they don't exist locally.
    Just a thought that appears not to have crossed your mind. Sometimes locals have very good reasons for resenting incomers. Not always but sometimes. Where I come from in Cornwall for instance my home town the incomers have pushed house prices out of all recognition buying up their second homes. Shops have changed out of all recognition to cater to them as well and come winter everything shuts and the place becomes a damn ghost town.

    As an example my mother got offered the chance to buy her council house under right to buy and looked into it and found she couldn't afford it even with the maximum discount. Her two bedroom prefab 1960's bungalow apparently had a market price of 500K

    Why shouldn't the locals resent that?
    I think resenting specific people is fine but I think it's when we tar every person with the same brush that some might find difficulty. I am not saying that is what you are doing here.
    Also, I doubt second home owners are much of an issue in Thornaby.
    I didn't assert it was always reasonable to resent incomers, just that sometimes it has real reasons and it shouldn't be automatically assumed to be bigotry,

    I am sure many in the country resented the vikings when they used to visit but I think it would be hard to put that down purely to xenophobic bigotry
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Trump clearly wants to keep the issue of a new Justice live on election day to maximise evangelical turnout

    In 2004 Bush won 78% of evangelicals and they made up 23% of the electorate

    In 2008 McCain's share of evangelicals fell to 74% but their share of the electorate rose to 26%

    In 2012 Romney increased his share of evangelicals back to the 78% Bush got though their share of the electorate remained unchanged at 26%

    In 2016 Trump got the highest share of the evangelical vote yet at 81% though their voteshare again remained at 26%.

    In November Trump will therefore not only be aiming to keep his share of evangelicals over 80% but to drive their turnout close to 30% of the electorate given the chance of a pro life Justice to replace a pro choice Justice

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_United_States_presidential_election
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_United_States_presidential_election
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_United_States_presidential_election
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidential_election

    The last Democrat to win the evangelical vote was Carter in 1976, since then they have played a key part in the winning Republican campaigns of Reagan, Bush 41 once and Bush 43 twice and Trump
    Been away from PB and visiting the real world for a bit so I don't know how the Brains Trust here has evaluated the Ginsburg effect. Intuitively I feel it should favor Trump but logically it is hard to pinpoint why. It was known she was likely to go soon, whether through illness death or retirement, and Evangelicals would always support a candidate who promised them SC appointments to their liking. So Trump was always going to get their vote regardless of whether there was actually a vacancy or not. I'm not sure really why the actuality of a vacancy makes much difference.

    Trump's price has shortened a bit on Betfair, back to where it was a few days ago. The Spreads are unmoved. Somehow I think replacing Ginsburg is not going to determine the Election.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 7,672

    So hospitalisations are going back up again (England is back at where it was in July?) and the death rate is also trending up.

    If I have misunderstood please do correct me but that's not good at all

    Yes, it is not good.
    For a bit of balance, though

    image
  • I do not think all Brexit voters were racist, do I think racism informed some voters' decisions? Of course I do.

    Do I think the media whipped up hatred for people from abroad and pretended they caused a lot of problems in our society? Also, yes
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 29,075

    I do not think all Brexit voters were racist, do I think racism informed some voters' decisions? Of course I do.

    Do I think the media whipped up hatred for people from abroad and pretended they caused a lot of problems in our society? Also, yes

    Must be a quiet news day if we are having this debate again.

    Violins.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Trump clearly wants to keep the issue of a new Justice live on election day to maximise evangelical turnout

    In 2004 Bush won 78% of evangelicals and they made up 23% of the electorate

    In 2008 McCain's share of evangelicals fell to 74% but their share of the electorate rose to 26%

    In 2012 Romney increased his share of evangelicals back to the 78% Bush got though their share of the electorate remained unchanged at 26%

    In 2016 Trump got the highest share of the evangelical vote yet at 81% though their voteshare again remained at 26%.

    In November Trump will therefore not only be aiming to keep his share of evangelicals over 80% but to drive their turnout close to 30% of the electorate given the chance of a pro life Justice to replace a pro choice Justice

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_United_States_presidential_election
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_United_States_presidential_election
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_United_States_presidential_election
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidential_election

    The last Democrat to win the evangelical vote was Carter in 1976, since then they have played a key part in the winning Republican campaigns of Reagan, Bush 41 once and Bush 43 twice and Trump
    Been away from PB and visiting the real world for a bit so I don't know how the Brains Trust here has evaluated the Ginsburg effect. Intuitively I feel it should favor Trump but logically it is hard to pinpoint why. It was known she was likely to go soon, whether through illness death or retirement, and Evangelicals would always support a candidate who promised them SC appointments to their liking. So Trump was always going to get their vote regardless of whether there was actually a vacancy or not. I'm not sure really why the actuality of a vacancy makes much difference.

    Trump's price has shortened a bit on Betfair, back to where it was a few days ago. The Spreads are unmoved. Somehow I think replacing Ginsburg is not going to determine the Election.
    A few weeks ago I posted on PB that an American friend, a never Trump GOPer, said that the only way Trump was going to win was if one of the Supremes dropped dead, that we underestimated the influence of selecting Scalia's replacement got out the never Trumpers for Trump in 2016.
  • felixfelix Posts: 11,019

    felix said:

    felix said:

    I'm sure this has been filed away for the GE:

    I don't get why this is controversial. Here in Thornaby-on-Tees local Labour activists in their 60s describe their fellow townspeople as Parochial Bigots. And not incomers like me, these are was born here have only lived here and will die here activists. The town votes for the local independent party who rants on about the evils of the people on the Stockton (County Durham) side of the River. His eminence the Mayor-for-Life posted a very funny 3am Facebook rant against me that having not been born here I would never get here and would be better "going home" to Rochdale.

    And that's against people not from Yorkshire. People are increasingly openly against anyone who isn't exactly like them, and foreigners are an easy target. Its not hard right racism, just petty bigotry. And the kind of seats like Lavery mentions are riddled with exactly the kind of white working class people like Rochdale's Mrs "Bigoted Woman" Duffy and frankly my dad who whilst not being explicitly racist are more than happy to label non-whites by their skin colour and cast aspersions based on that.

    The media have a lot of the blame for whipping this up though. Anti-foreigner stories endlessly in their newspapers is how you end up with white people in a town that is almost entirely white saying that the country is too full of migrants like the ones that they can't see as they don't exist locally.
    Wait so the story here is "man nods head"?

    I sometimes nod my head when I'm listening, I must be more careful as I never thought it implied agreement.
    Ahem - yeah .. it really does.
    Well I'll be sure to be more careful, I do it subconsciously to let them know I am listening.

    I was watching an interview with Gabriel Pogrund last night, he was nodding his head a lot and I highly doubt he agreed with anything Aaron Bastani was saying
    Your sycophantic support for Starmer would be more credible if you could just occasionally acknowledge his faults. This is not a big story but it is entirely believeable that many in the party, including Starmer, have a thinly veiled contempt for some of their erstwhile supporters. it has been well documented over the years - ask Gordon.
    Whatever mate, I thought I made a perfectly reasonable point about my own experience with nodding a head not automatically meaning agreement (and gave another example) but irrespective of that, if Keir was agreeing then obviously that's no way to win an election.
    It illustrates a problem that Labour need to solve and which was writ very large under Corbyn - the tension between the m/c well educated socialists and the w/c voter base whose societal view is often not on script. It has existed since the party's birth at the turn of the 20th century and has waxed and waned throughout its history. Starmer may or may not be able to square it. Much depends on policies which we are largely yet to see. His current polling is quite good but given who he replaced and the current situation it would be very odd indeed if it was anything else.
  • Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I'm sure this has been filed away for the GE:

    I don't get why this is controversial. Here in Thornaby-on-Tees local Labour activists in their 60s describe their fellow townspeople as Parochial Bigots. And not incomers like me, these are was born here have only lived here and will die here activists. The town votes for the local independent party who rants on about the evils of the people on the Stockton (County Durham) side of the River. His eminence the Mayor-for-Life posted a very funny 3am Facebook rant against me that having not been born here I would never get here and would be better "going home" to Rochdale.

    And that's against people not from Yorkshire. People are increasingly openly against anyone who isn't exactly like them, and foreigners are an easy target. Its not hard right racism, just petty bigotry. And the kind of seats like Lavery mentions are riddled with exactly the kind of white working class people like Rochdale's Mrs "Bigoted Woman" Duffy and frankly my dad who whilst not being explicitly racist are more than happy to label non-whites by their skin colour and cast aspersions based on that.

    The media have a lot of the blame for whipping this up though. Anti-foreigner stories endlessly in their newspapers is how you end up with white people in a town that is almost entirely white saying that the country is too full of migrants like the ones that they can't see as they don't exist locally.
    Just a thought that appears not to have crossed your mind. Sometimes locals have very good reasons for resenting incomers. Not always but sometimes. Where I come from in Cornwall for instance my home town the incomers have pushed house prices out of all recognition buying up their second homes. Shops have changed out of all recognition to cater to them as well and come winter everything shuts and the place becomes a damn ghost town.

    As an example my mother got offered the chance to buy her council house under right to buy and looked into it and found she couldn't afford it even with the maximum discount. Her two bedroom prefab 1960's bungalow apparently had a market price of 500K

    Why shouldn't the locals resent that?
    I think resenting specific people is fine but I think it's when we tar every person with the same brush that some might find difficulty. I am not saying that is what you are doing here.
    Also, I doubt second home owners are much of an issue in Thornaby.
    I didn't assert it was always reasonable to resent incomers, just that sometimes it has real reasons and it shouldn't be automatically assumed to be bigotry,

    I am sure many in the country resented the vikings when they used to visit but I think it would be hard to put that down purely to xenophobic bigotry
    It's okay to resent a specific person, I think but to resent everyone of a certain race, or country because of bad experiences with one would be bordering on racism.

    For example, hating Eastern Europeans because Polish people come here to work. Do you think that's reasonable? I don't.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 1,540

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I'm sure this has been filed away for the GE:

    I don't get why this is controversial. Here in Thornaby-on-Tees local Labour activists in their 60s describe their fellow townspeople as Parochial Bigots. And not incomers like me, these are was born here have only lived here and will die here activists. The town votes for the local independent party who rants on about the evils of the people on the Stockton (County Durham) side of the River. His eminence the Mayor-for-Life posted a very funny 3am Facebook rant against me that having not been born here I would never get here and would be better "going home" to Rochdale.

    And that's against people not from Yorkshire. People are increasingly openly against anyone who isn't exactly like them, and foreigners are an easy target. Its not hard right racism, just petty bigotry. And the kind of seats like Lavery mentions are riddled with exactly the kind of white working class people like Rochdale's Mrs "Bigoted Woman" Duffy and frankly my dad who whilst not being explicitly racist are more than happy to label non-whites by their skin colour and cast aspersions based on that.

    The media have a lot of the blame for whipping this up though. Anti-foreigner stories endlessly in their newspapers is how you end up with white people in a town that is almost entirely white saying that the country is too full of migrants like the ones that they can't see as they don't exist locally.
    Just a thought that appears not to have crossed your mind. Sometimes locals have very good reasons for resenting incomers. Not always but sometimes. Where I come from in Cornwall for instance my home town the incomers have pushed house prices out of all recognition buying up their second homes. Shops have changed out of all recognition to cater to them as well and come winter everything shuts and the place becomes a damn ghost town.

    As an example my mother got offered the chance to buy her council house under right to buy and looked into it and found she couldn't afford it even with the maximum discount. Her two bedroom prefab 1960's bungalow apparently had a market price of 500K

    Why shouldn't the locals resent that?
    I think resenting specific people is fine but I think it's when we tar every person with the same brush that some might find difficulty. I am not saying that is what you are doing here.
    It was abbot , starmer and rochdale doing the tarring all those people with a brush. I merely pointed out that yes sometimes in someplaces locals have good solid reasons to resent incomers
    So basically it's okay to resent people as long as they're people you personally don't like, is that the conclusion? Then you might be called a hypocrite.

    My concern would be around - for example - that say "Romanians are coming here to steal our jobs". They aren't coming here to steal anything, in many cases they're doing jobs the British refuse to do like cleaning loos. Or working in the NHS, or keeping our elderly people alive.

    Are we to resent those "incomers"? Or you agree that we should make distinctions.
    I gave you a specific example from personal experience where I fely the locals had a cause for resentment and as usual you try and put words in my mouth that I haven't uttered in your nasty lefty way.

    I REPEAT IN CAPS BECAUSE YOU SEEM TO BE UNABLE TO READ WHAT I WROTE ......IN SOME PLACES....IE NOT ALL
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 42,596

    UK cases, by specimen date, scaled to 100K population

    Thanks - remind me how many days back do we have to go to see "reliable" data that's unlikely to change (much)?

    Clearly Scotland is getting its stats out faster than EW. Given a lot of the testing is via UK "Lighthouse" labs, why does EW have a lag Scotland does not?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 1,540

    Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I'm sure this has been filed away for the GE:

    I don't get why this is controversial. Here in Thornaby-on-Tees local Labour activists in their 60s describe their fellow townspeople as Parochial Bigots. And not incomers like me, these are was born here have only lived here and will die here activists. The town votes for the local independent party who rants on about the evils of the people on the Stockton (County Durham) side of the River. His eminence the Mayor-for-Life posted a very funny 3am Facebook rant against me that having not been born here I would never get here and would be better "going home" to Rochdale.

    And that's against people not from Yorkshire. People are increasingly openly against anyone who isn't exactly like them, and foreigners are an easy target. Its not hard right racism, just petty bigotry. And the kind of seats like Lavery mentions are riddled with exactly the kind of white working class people like Rochdale's Mrs "Bigoted Woman" Duffy and frankly my dad who whilst not being explicitly racist are more than happy to label non-whites by their skin colour and cast aspersions based on that.

    The media have a lot of the blame for whipping this up though. Anti-foreigner stories endlessly in their newspapers is how you end up with white people in a town that is almost entirely white saying that the country is too full of migrants like the ones that they can't see as they don't exist locally.
    Just a thought that appears not to have crossed your mind. Sometimes locals have very good reasons for resenting incomers. Not always but sometimes. Where I come from in Cornwall for instance my home town the incomers have pushed house prices out of all recognition buying up their second homes. Shops have changed out of all recognition to cater to them as well and come winter everything shuts and the place becomes a damn ghost town.

    As an example my mother got offered the chance to buy her council house under right to buy and looked into it and found she couldn't afford it even with the maximum discount. Her two bedroom prefab 1960's bungalow apparently had a market price of 500K

    Why shouldn't the locals resent that?
    I think resenting specific people is fine but I think it's when we tar every person with the same brush that some might find difficulty. I am not saying that is what you are doing here.
    Also, I doubt second home owners are much of an issue in Thornaby.
    I didn't assert it was always reasonable to resent incomers, just that sometimes it has real reasons and it shouldn't be automatically assumed to be bigotry,

    I am sure many in the country resented the vikings when they used to visit but I think it would be hard to put that down purely to xenophobic bigotry
    It's okay to resent a specific person, I think but to resent everyone of a certain race, or country because of bad experiences with one would be bordering on racism.

    For example, hating Eastern Europeans because Polish people come here to work. Do you think that's reasonable? I don't.
    Stop putting words in my mouth I never said
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 34,638
    edited September 19
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 7,672
    felix said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    I'm sure this has been filed away for the GE:

    I don't get why this is controversial. Here in Thornaby-on-Tees local Labour activists in their 60s describe their fellow townspeople as Parochial Bigots. And not incomers like me, these are was born here have only lived here and will die here activists. The town votes for the local independent party who rants on about the evils of the people on the Stockton (County Durham) side of the River. His eminence the Mayor-for-Life posted a very funny 3am Facebook rant against me that having not been born here I would never get here and would be better "going home" to Rochdale.

    And that's against people not from Yorkshire. People are increasingly openly against anyone who isn't exactly like them, and foreigners are an easy target. Its not hard right racism, just petty bigotry. And the kind of seats like Lavery mentions are riddled with exactly the kind of white working class people like Rochdale's Mrs "Bigoted Woman" Duffy and frankly my dad who whilst not being explicitly racist are more than happy to label non-whites by their skin colour and cast aspersions based on that.

    The media have a lot of the blame for whipping this up though. Anti-foreigner stories endlessly in their newspapers is how you end up with white people in a town that is almost entirely white saying that the country is too full of migrants like the ones that they can't see as they don't exist locally.
    Wait so the story here is "man nods head"?

    I sometimes nod my head when I'm listening, I must be more careful as I never thought it implied agreement.
    Ahem - yeah .. it really does.
    Well I'll be sure to be more careful, I do it subconsciously to let them know I am listening.

    I was watching an interview with Gabriel Pogrund last night, he was nodding his head a lot and I highly doubt he agreed with anything Aaron Bastani was saying
    Your sycophantic support for Starmer would be more credible if you could just occasionally acknowledge his faults. This is not a big story but it is entirely believeable that many in the party, including Starmer, have a thinly veiled contempt for some of their erstwhile supporters. it has been well documented over the years - ask Gordon.
    Whatever mate, I thought I made a perfectly reasonable point about my own experience with nodding a head not automatically meaning agreement (and gave another example) but irrespective of that, if Keir was agreeing then obviously that's no way to win an election.
    It illustrates a problem that Labour need to solve and which was writ very large under Corbyn - the tension between the m/c well educated socialists and the w/c voter base whose societal view is often not on script. It has existed since the party's birth at the turn of the 20th century and has waxed and waned throughout its history. Starmer may or may not be able to square it. Much depends on policies which we are largely yet to see. His current polling is quite good but given who he replaced and the current situation it would be very odd indeed if it was anything else.
    George Orwell write extensively on the issue of the Intellectuals vs The Workers in the socialist movement. Nothing much has changed.
  • felix said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    I'm sure this has been filed away for the GE:

    I don't get why this is controversial. Here in Thornaby-on-Tees local Labour activists in their 60s describe their fellow townspeople as Parochial Bigots. And not incomers like me, these are was born here have only lived here and will die here activists. The town votes for the local independent party who rants on about the evils of the people on the Stockton (County Durham) side of the River. His eminence the Mayor-for-Life posted a very funny 3am Facebook rant against me that having not been born here I would never get here and would be better "going home" to Rochdale.

    And that's against people not from Yorkshire. People are increasingly openly against anyone who isn't exactly like them, and foreigners are an easy target. Its not hard right racism, just petty bigotry. And the kind of seats like Lavery mentions are riddled with exactly the kind of white working class people like Rochdale's Mrs "Bigoted Woman" Duffy and frankly my dad who whilst not being explicitly racist are more than happy to label non-whites by their skin colour and cast aspersions based on that.

    The media have a lot of the blame for whipping this up though. Anti-foreigner stories endlessly in their newspapers is how you end up with white people in a town that is almost entirely white saying that the country is too full of migrants like the ones that they can't see as they don't exist locally.
    Wait so the story here is "man nods head"?

    I sometimes nod my head when I'm listening, I must be more careful as I never thought it implied agreement.
    Ahem - yeah .. it really does.
    Well I'll be sure to be more careful, I do it subconsciously to let them know I am listening.

    I was watching an interview with Gabriel Pogrund last night, he was nodding his head a lot and I highly doubt he agreed with anything Aaron Bastani was saying
    Your sycophantic support for Starmer would be more credible if you could just occasionally acknowledge his faults. This is not a big story but it is entirely believeable that many in the party, including Starmer, have a thinly veiled contempt for some of their erstwhile supporters. it has been well documented over the years - ask Gordon.
    Whatever mate, I thought I made a perfectly reasonable point about my own experience with nodding a head not automatically meaning agreement (and gave another example) but irrespective of that, if Keir was agreeing then obviously that's no way to win an election.
    It illustrates a problem that Labour need to solve and which was writ very large under Corbyn - the tension between the m/c well educated socialists and the w/c voter base whose societal view is often not on script. It has existed since the party's birth at the turn of the 20th century and has waxed and waned throughout its history. Starmer may or may not be able to square it. Much depends on policies which we are largely yet to see. His current polling is quite good but given who he replaced and the current situation it would be very odd indeed if it was anything else.
    Good post.

    I think we need to distinguish between views which we hold in private - which may well be right or wrong - and those that we air as a party. Too much - as you say - our private views have become party policy.

    For example, I do think racism informed the Brexit vote for some. Do I think it's useful to air those views to the public? No.

    But this is about clever politics and something far above my paygrade, it is turning around the policies to who they target and the way we sell them.

    You could sell railway nationalisation in a far more patriotic and working-class focussed way than Labour has done historically.
  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 10,899
    edited September 19
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I'm sure this has been filed away for the GE:

    I don't get why this is controversial. Here in Thornaby-on-Tees local Labour activists in their 60s describe their fellow townspeople as Parochial Bigots. And not incomers like me, these are was born here have only lived here and will die here activists. The town votes for the local independent party who rants on about the evils of the people on the Stockton (County Durham) side of the River. His eminence the Mayor-for-Life posted a very funny 3am Facebook rant against me that having not been born here I would never get here and would be better "going home" to Rochdale.

    And that's against people not from Yorkshire. People are increasingly openly against anyone who isn't exactly like them, and foreigners are an easy target. Its not hard right racism, just petty bigotry. And the kind of seats like Lavery mentions are riddled with exactly the kind of white working class people like Rochdale's Mrs "Bigoted Woman" Duffy and frankly my dad who whilst not being explicitly racist are more than happy to label non-whites by their skin colour and cast aspersions based on that.

    The media have a lot of the blame for whipping this up though. Anti-foreigner stories endlessly in their newspapers is how you end up with white people in a town that is almost entirely white saying that the country is too full of migrants like the ones that they can't see as they don't exist locally.
    Just a thought that appears not to have crossed your mind. Sometimes locals have very good reasons for resenting incomers. Not always but sometimes. Where I come from in Cornwall for instance my home town the incomers have pushed house prices out of all recognition buying up their second homes. Shops have changed out of all recognition to cater to them as well and come winter everything shuts and the place becomes a damn ghost town.

    As an example my mother got offered the chance to buy her council house under right to buy and looked into it and found she couldn't afford it even with the maximum discount. Her two bedroom prefab 1960's bungalow apparently had a market price of 500K

    Why shouldn't the locals resent that?
    I think resenting specific people is fine but I think it's when we tar every person with the same brush that some might find difficulty. I am not saying that is what you are doing here.
    Also, I doubt second home owners are much of an issue in Thornaby.
    I didn't assert it was always reasonable to resent incomers, just that sometimes it has real reasons and it shouldn't be automatically assumed to be bigotry,

    I am sure many in the country resented the vikings when they used to visit but I think it would be hard to put that down purely to xenophobic bigotry
    It's okay to resent a specific person, I think but to resent everyone of a certain race, or country because of bad experiences with one would be bordering on racism.

    For example, hating Eastern Europeans because Polish people come here to work. Do you think that's reasonable? I don't.
    Stop putting words in my mouth I never said
    You said it's sometimes reasonable to resent incomers, I just wondered which incomers you thought it okay to resent and your reasons for doing so.

    I recalled that in the past you cited immigration that came from abroad as being one of your issues and it was a motivation for Brexit.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 42,596

    felix said:

    I'm sure this has been filed away for the GE:

    I don't get why this is controversial. Here in Thornaby-on-Tees local Labour activists in their 60s describe their fellow townspeople as Parochial Bigots. And not incomers like me, these are was born here have only lived here and will die here activists. The town votes for the local independent party who rants on about the evils of the people on the Stockton (County Durham) side of the River. His eminence the Mayor-for-Life posted a very funny 3am Facebook rant against me that having not been born here I would never get here and would be better "going home" to Rochdale.

    And that's against people not from Yorkshire. People are increasingly openly against anyone who isn't exactly like them, and foreigners are an easy target. Its not hard right racism, just petty bigotry. And the kind of seats like Lavery mentions are riddled with exactly the kind of white working class people like Rochdale's Mrs "Bigoted Woman" Duffy and frankly my dad who whilst not being explicitly racist are more than happy to label non-whites by their skin colour and cast aspersions based on that.

    The media have a lot of the blame for whipping this up though. Anti-foreigner stories endlessly in their newspapers is how you end up with white people in a town that is almost entirely white saying that the country is too full of migrants like the ones that they can't see as they don't exist locally.
    Wait so the story here is "man nods head"?

    I sometimes nod my head when I'm listening, I must be more careful as I never thought it implied agreement.
    Ahem - yeah .. it really does.
    Well I'll be sure to be more careful, I do it subconsciously to let them know I am listening.
    A senior politician, let alone the leader of a party should surely be aware of the signals he sends, given most eyes will be upon him. As has been pointed out, if he disagreed with the analysis, surely he would have said something?

  • felixfelix Posts: 11,019
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I'm sure this has been filed away for the GE:

    I don't get why this is controversial. Here in Thornaby-on-Tees local Labour activists in their 60s describe their fellow townspeople as Parochial Bigots. And not incomers like me, these are was born here have only lived here and will die here activists. The town votes for the local independent party who rants on about the evils of the people on the Stockton (County Durham) side of the River. His eminence the Mayor-for-Life posted a very funny 3am Facebook rant against me that having not been born here I would never get here and would be better "going home" to Rochdale.

    And that's against people not from Yorkshire. People are increasingly openly against anyone who isn't exactly like them, and foreigners are an easy target. Its not hard right racism, just petty bigotry. And the kind of seats like Lavery mentions are riddled with exactly the kind of white working class people like Rochdale's Mrs "Bigoted Woman" Duffy and frankly my dad who whilst not being explicitly racist are more than happy to label non-whites by their skin colour and cast aspersions based on that.

    The media have a lot of the blame for whipping this up though. Anti-foreigner stories endlessly in their newspapers is how you end up with white people in a town that is almost entirely white saying that the country is too full of migrants like the ones that they can't see as they don't exist locally.
    Just a thought that appears not to have crossed your mind. Sometimes locals have very good reasons for resenting incomers. Not always but sometimes. Where I come from in Cornwall for instance my home town the incomers have pushed house prices out of all recognition buying up their second homes. Shops have changed out of all recognition to cater to them as well and come winter everything shuts and the place becomes a damn ghost town.

    As an example my mother got offered the chance to buy her council house under right to buy and looked into it and found she couldn't afford it even with the maximum discount. Her two bedroom prefab 1960's bungalow apparently had a market price of 500K

    Why shouldn't the locals resent that?
    I think resenting specific people is fine but I think it's when we tar every person with the same brush that some might find difficulty. I am not saying that is what you are doing here.
    Also, I doubt second home owners are much of an issue in Thornaby.
    I didn't assert it was always reasonable to resent incomers, just that sometimes it has real reasons and it shouldn't be automatically assumed to be bigotry,

    I am sure many in the country resented the vikings when they used to visit but I think it would be hard to put that down purely to xenophobic bigotry
    It's okay to resent a specific person, I think but to resent everyone of a certain race, or country because of bad experiences with one would be bordering on racism.

    For example, hating Eastern Europeans because Polish people come here to work. Do you think that's reasonable? I don't.
    Stop putting words in my mouth I never said
    A problem for the left is the tendency to denounce with words like 'racism' 'sexism' as a substitute for reasoned argument. CHB tries to avoid it but you hear and read it all the time from the left. In the end most people ignore it and vote accordingly.
  • Top trolling by Spurs.

    Announcing this while Manchester United are trailing Crystal Palace due to sloppy defending.

    I see what you did there Spurs.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 7,672
    edited September 19

    UK cases, by specimen date, scaled to 100K population

    Thanks - remind me how many days back do we have to go to see "reliable" data that's unlikely to change (much)?

    Clearly Scotland is getting its stats out faster than EW. Given a lot of the testing is via UK "Lighthouse" labs, why does EW have a lag Scotland does not?
    After the last 3 days, it is usually pretty stable.

    Scotland puts out data faster, mainly because of centralisation. It did take them a long, long time to start collecting data by specimen date, though. They are also doing much less pillar 2 testing, I believe.
This discussion has been closed.