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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Another leading Republican declares for Biden

SystemSystem Posts: 11,690
edited September 2020 in General
politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Another leading Republican declares for Biden

The former Republican Governor of the ultra marginal swing state of Michigan says he'll vote for Biden https://t.co/pdOfdG20fJ

Read the full story here

«1345

Comments

  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,845
    zeroth?
  • Options
    FPT: you're welcome Big G, I hope you will continue to post for many more years yet
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,712
    Second like Trump.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,030
    Clearly a boost for Biden, though in 2016 Snyder refused to endorse Trump either, endorsing neither him nor Hillary, so not a direct switch
  • Options
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8693995/BBC-boss-Tim-Davie-warns-opinionated-columnists-social-media-warriors-no-place-here.html

    Presumably Andrew Neil will be stopped from Tweeting too, or does it only apply to lefties? Would PB Tories support Andrew Neil also being stopped from Tweeting?
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,712
    edited September 2020
    FPT, quite a monument to hubris and English exceptionalism.

    Unfortunately, I fear that we are no different to France and Spain, just a few weeks behind.

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Quite amusing watching all those who spent the last 4 years stating that character and expertise absolutely do matter in public life (when it comes to an opponent like, say, ooh, I don’t know, J Corbyn) now saying that they don’t matter at all when it relates to one of your mates who believes in Brexit.

    Abbott was the elected leader of a major Western democracy and a Rhodes Scholar; Corbyn was a delusional, barely-educated crank.

    Apart from that, good point!
    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.
    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    He can't, spot on Pagan2.

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Quite amusing watching all those who spent the last 4 years stating that character and expertise absolutely do matter in public life (when it comes to an opponent like, say, ooh, I don’t know, J Corbyn) now saying that they don’t matter at all when it relates to one of your mates who believes in Brexit.

    Abbott was the elected leader of a major Western democracy and a Rhodes Scholar; Corbyn was a delusional, barely-educated crank.

    Apart from that, good point!
    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.
    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    Example: Test & Trace

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&year=latest&country=GBR~FRA~ESP~PRT~ITA
    *cough*

    You don't know me at all it seems.
    Its a simple challenge show us a link to some actual source where you can say Dido harding achieved that.

    I can only wait 20 years or so however
    I just did. Harding runs Test & Trace and this is the result Test & Trace is getting compared to other countries.

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&year=latest&country=GBR~FRA~ESP~PRT~ITA
    Second Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/full-list-total-tests-for-covid-19?year=latest&time=2020-04-01..latest&country=GBR~France, tests performed~ITA~PRT~ESP

    Success.


  • Options
    The disjoint between the polling in swing states like Michigan and the betting markets is quite perplexing. Certainly the betting markets give the impression of fighting the last war. 538 has Trump with a 30% chance of winning, that feels about right for now.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,013
    Oi.

    I know who has been tagging CBH posts as Off Topic.

    Don't do it anymore or I will unmask you.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,013

    The disjoint between the polling in swing states like Michigan and the betting markets is quite perplexing. Certainly the betting markets give the impression of fighting the last war. 538 has Trump with a 30% chance of winning, that feels about right for now.

    I think there's a 30% chance of a narrow Trump win, a 40% chance of a narrow Biden win, and a 30% chance of a big Biden win.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,845
    hmmm post button disappears with long post @rcs1000
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,845
    fpt

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:



    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.

    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    He can't, spot on Pagan2.

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Quite amusing watching all those who spent the last 4 years stating that character and expertise absolutely do matter in public life (when it comes to an opponent like, say, ooh, I don’t know, J Corbyn) now saying that they don’t matter at all when it relates to one of your mates who believes in Brexit.

    Abbott was the elected leader of a major Western democracy and a Rhodes Scholar; Corbyn was a delusional, barely-educated crank.

    Apart from that, good point!
    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.
    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    Example: Test & Trace

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&year=latest&country=GBR~FRA~ESP~PRT~ITA
    *cough*

    You don't know me at all it seems.
    Its a simple challenge show us a link to some actual source where you can say Dido harding achieved that.

    I can only wait 20 years or so however
    I just did. Harding runs Test & Trace and this is the result Test & Trace is getting compared to other countries.

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&year=latest&country=GBR~FRA~ESP~PRT~ITA
    Second Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/full-list-total-tests-for-covid-19?year=latest&time=2020-04-01..latest&country=GBR~France, tests performed~ITA~PRT~ESP

    Success.
    Besides which even if you were correct about that graph proving track and trace is working which you arent

    Before Harding took over positive test results were running at 0.6 % currently they are running at 0.6% so all you can actually claim is Harding hasn't made things worse yet but then she has only been doing it since the first week of august and she has plenty of time to fuck it up still. What you cant claim from that graph even if we didn't think it bollocks and not comparing like with like is she has made a positive difference because since she took over the rates haven't changed. At best you could claim the previous leader did all the hard work and now she is coming in and trying to claim the credit
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    The disjoint between the polling in swing states like Michigan and the betting markets is quite perplexing. Certainly the betting markets give the impression of fighting the last war. 538 has Trump with a 30% chance of winning, that feels about right for now.

    I think there's a 30% chance of a narrow Trump win, a 40% chance of a narrow Biden win, and a 30% chance of a big Biden win.
    Yup, I think so too. And in most of the scenarios where Biden wins the Dems would take the Senate as well.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,748
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:
    No facts set out above say he's not an expert. He's been Prime Minister of one of our closest partners that while Prime Minister signed multiple trade agreements. That's valuable experience - if his politics shared yours you wouldn't be laughing at him. If we'd said we'd signed Jacinda Ardern then I doubt her credentials would be mocked.

    Did he unilaterally write those trade deals? No of course not. Is he going to be expected to unilaterally write any trade deals? No of course not.

    As for the Test Act remark, you're just being silly. Governments have always signed advisors who share their politics - Blair wouldn't have appointed someone to a Health committee that was against the NHS and was an advocate of a US style health insurance model.
    You’re the one being silly. Remember Brown’s Government of all the Talents, which brought in people who were not Labour?Or Cameron seeking informal advice from Blair?

    Harding has experience of supermarkets and retail. Her one experience as CEO in charge of data was one of the worst corporate cock-ups around. Still the bar is low for this government. But I am not going to hail a second-rate executive some sort of wonder girl.
    Yes people sometimes get advice from others, especially on issues where they can agree on politics though. Boris has done the same and appointed former Labour people to roles too.

    You're wrong on Harding's experience. She's been Chair of NHS Improvement for three years now. She has worked at a vast swathe of companies, been Chief Executive of a major Telecoms company, been a director of The Court of The Bank of England served on many companies boards. That is a lot of experience, including years of experience specifically to do with the NHS.

    You have very terribly harsh and IMHO unrealistic views on people who have "failed" in the past as if there is no redemption possible for them. Personally I don't view having been through bad patches in the past is a bad thing, people have the opportunity learn a lot from adversity.
    Harding has all of 3 year’s part-time experience of the NHS. Quite how her previous experience of supermarkets is relevant beats me.

    As for the general point, I have high expectations because I have seen close up the consequences of having people in jobs for which they are not qualified and at which they fail.

    I very strongly believe in redemption - both on a personal and professional level - having like most people, if they’re honest, made my share of mistakes. And I strongly believe that one learns best from one’s mistakes.

    But there has to be evidence of such learning and some humility and change.

    Rather, what I see is people serenely moving on from their cock-ups, denying that they did anything wrong, leaving others to clean up or blaming others, not taking responsibility - the ESSENTIAL first step to learning from adversity IMO - and being rewarded for - or in spite of - their failures.

    That is what grates because it is sending out precisely the wrong signal to people. Rather than teaching that one should admit to mistakes and learn from them, it is creating a culture where denial and blaming others is all and getting away from the scene of the crime is seen as being clever rather than reprehensible.
    Dido Harding's only relevant experience is being an old Oxford chum of Boris Johnson. Nothing else is relevant to her getting these jobs.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,030
    FF43 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:
    No facts set out above say he's not an expert. He's been Prime Minister of one of our closest partners that while Prime Minister signed multiple trade agreements. That's valuable experience - if his politics shared yours you wouldn't be laughing at him. If we'd said we'd signed Jacinda Ardern then I doubt her credentials would be mocked.

    Did he unilaterally write those trade deals? No of course not. Is he going to be expected to unilaterally write any trade deals? No of course not.

    As for the Test Act remark, you're just being silly. Governments have always signed advisors who share their politics - Blair wouldn't have appointed someone to a Health committee that was against the NHS and was an advocate of a US style health insurance model.
    You’re the one being silly. Remember Brown’s Government of all the Talents, which brought in people who were not Labour?Or Cameron seeking informal advice from Blair?

    Harding has experience of supermarkets and retail. Her one experience as CEO in charge of data was one of the worst corporate cock-ups around. Still the bar is low for this government. But I am not going to hail a second-rate executive some sort of wonder girl.
    Yes people sometimes get advice from others, especially on issues where they can agree on politics though. Boris has done the same and appointed former Labour people to roles too.

    You're wrong on Harding's experience. She's been Chair of NHS Improvement for three years now. She has worked at a vast swathe of companies, been Chief Executive of a major Telecoms company, been a director of The Court of The Bank of England served on many companies boards. That is a lot of experience, including years of experience specifically to do with the NHS.

    You have very terribly harsh and IMHO unrealistic views on people who have "failed" in the past as if there is no redemption possible for them. Personally I don't view having been through bad patches in the past is a bad thing, people have the opportunity learn a lot from adversity.
    Harding has all of 3 year’s part-time experience of the NHS. Quite how her previous experience of supermarkets is relevant beats me.

    As for the general point, I have high expectations because I have seen close up the consequences of having people in jobs for which they are not qualified and at which they fail.

    I very strongly believe in redemption - both on a personal and professional level - having like most people, if they’re honest, made my share of mistakes. And I strongly believe that one learns best from one’s mistakes.

    But there has to be evidence of such learning and some humility and change.

    Rather, what I see is people serenely moving on from their cock-ups, denying that they did anything wrong, leaving others to clean up or blaming others, not taking responsibility - the ESSENTIAL first step to learning from adversity IMO - and being rewarded for - or in spite of - their failures.

    That is what grates because it is sending out precisely the wrong signal to people. Rather than teaching that one should admit to mistakes and learn from them, it is creating a culture where denial and blaming others is all and getting away from the scene of the crime is seen as being clever rather than reprehensible.
    Dido Harding's only relevant experience is being an old Oxford chum of Boris Johnson. Nothing else is relevant to her getting these jobs.
    To get to Oxford it is what you know, after Oxford it is who you knew there
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,987
    Insulting the Military again?
    Doesn't he realise they'll be deciding whether or not to frogmarch his sorry ass out of the White House?
  • Options
    What a disgusting individual

    He has no place in any public office far less POTUS
  • Options
    moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,244
    OT
    Oh to see the nation’s streets bustling with school jumpers and blazers this morning was enough to make the soul sing. Cursed be they this winter who dare try and reverse this. You will not be forgiven.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,712
    Last week in Leicester we were down to 8 covid patients, now up to 13.

    I hope it is just a blip, but I fear not.
  • Options
    Pagan2 said:

    fpt

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:



    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.

    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    He can't, spot on Pagan2.

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Quite amusing watching all those who spent the last 4 years stating that character and expertise absolutely do matter in public life (when it comes to an opponent like, say, ooh, I don’t know, J Corbyn) now saying that they don’t matter at all when it relates to one of your mates who believes in Brexit.

    Abbott was the elected leader of a major Western democracy and a Rhodes Scholar; Corbyn was a delusional, barely-educated crank.

    Apart from that, good point!
    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.
    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    Example: Test & Trace

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&year=latest&country=GBR~FRA~ESP~PRT~ITA
    *cough*

    You don't know me at all it seems.
    Its a simple challenge show us a link to some actual source where you can say Dido harding achieved that.

    I can only wait 20 years or so however
    I just did. Harding runs Test & Trace and this is the result Test & Trace is getting compared to other countries.

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&year=latest&country=GBR~FRA~ESP~PRT~ITA
    Second Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/full-list-total-tests-for-covid-19?year=latest&time=2020-04-01..latest&country=GBR~France, tests performed~ITA~PRT~ESP

    Success.
    Besides which even if you were correct about that graph proving track and trace is working which you arent

    Before Harding took over positive test results were running at 0.6 % currently they are running at 0.6% so all you can actually claim is Harding hasn't made things worse yet but then she has only been doing it since the first week of august and she has plenty of time to fuck it up still. What you cant claim from that graph even if we didn't think it bollocks and not comparing like with like is she has made a positive difference because since she took over the rates haven't changed. At best you could claim the previous leader did all the hard work and now she is coming in and trying to claim the credit
    Oh dear this is embarrassing for you. Harding was appointed head of Test and Trace in May, not August.

    https://twitter.com/MattHancock/status/1258448905555099649
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,013

    rcs1000 said:

    The disjoint between the polling in swing states like Michigan and the betting markets is quite perplexing. Certainly the betting markets give the impression of fighting the last war. 538 has Trump with a 30% chance of winning, that feels about right for now.

    I think there's a 30% chance of a narrow Trump win, a 40% chance of a narrow Biden win, and a 30% chance of a big Biden win.
    Yup, I think so too. And in most of the scenarios where Biden wins the Dems would take the Senate as well.
    It's possible (just) that the Dems take the Senate, but Trump the Presidency.

    Republicans lose Arizona, Colorado and Maine in the Senate, but gain Alabama.
    Result 51 - 49 Republicans to Democrats.

    But there's also Iowa, Georgia (x2), Kentucky, Montana, and North Carolina. Now, will the Dems win all of these? Probably not. But I could easily see the Special election in Georgia in January resulting in a Democratic pickup. And Joni Ernst looks vulnerable in Iowa.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,845

    Pagan2 said:

    fpt

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:



    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.

    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    He can't, spot on Pagan2.

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Quite amusing watching all those who spent the last 4 years stating that character and expertise absolutely do matter in public life (when it comes to an opponent like, say, ooh, I don’t know, J Corbyn) now saying that they don’t matter at all when it relates to one of your mates who believes in Brexit.

    Abbott was the elected leader of a major Western democracy and a Rhodes Scholar; Corbyn was a delusional, barely-educated crank.

    Apart from that, good point!
    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.
    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    Example: Test & Trace

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&year=latest&country=GBR~FRA~ESP~PRT~ITA
    *cough*

    You don't know me at all it seems.
    Its a simple challenge show us a link to some actual source where you can say Dido harding achieved that.

    I can only wait 20 years or so however
    I just did. Harding runs Test & Trace and this is the result Test & Trace is getting compared to other countries.

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&year=latest&country=GBR~FRA~ESP~PRT~ITA
    Second Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/full-list-total-tests-for-covid-19?year=latest&time=2020-04-01..latest&country=GBR~France, tests performed~ITA~PRT~ESP

    Success.
    Besides which even if you were correct about that graph proving track and trace is working which you arent

    Before Harding took over positive test results were running at 0.6 % currently they are running at 0.6% so all you can actually claim is Harding hasn't made things worse yet but then she has only been doing it since the first week of august and she has plenty of time to fuck it up still. What you cant claim from that graph even if we didn't think it bollocks and not comparing like with like is she has made a positive difference because since she took over the rates haven't changed. At best you could claim the previous leader did all the hard work and now she is coming in and trying to claim the credit
    Oh dear this is embarrassing for you. Harding was appointed head of Test and Trace in May, not August.

    https://twitter.com/MattHancock/status/1258448905555099649
    It was announced in May she didnt take over till august
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,845
    edited September 2020
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    fpt

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:



    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.

    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    He can't, spot on Pagan2.

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Quite amusing watching all those who spent the last 4 years stating that character and expertise absolutely do matter in public life (when it comes to an opponent like, say, ooh, I don’t know, J Corbyn) now saying that they don’t matter at all when it relates to one of your mates who believes in Brexit.

    Abbott was the elected leader of a major Western democracy and a Rhodes Scholar; Corbyn was a delusional, barely-educated crank.

    Apart from that, good point!
    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.
    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    Example: Test & Trace

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&year=latest&country=GBR~FRA~ESP~PRT~ITA
    *cough*

    You don't know me at all it seems.
    Its a simple challenge show us a link to some actual source where you can say Dido harding achieved that.

    I can only wait 20 years or so however
    I just did. Harding runs Test & Trace and this is the result Test & Trace is getting compared to other countries.

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&year=latest&country=GBR~FRA~ESP~PRT~ITA
    Second Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/full-list-total-tests-for-covid-19?year=latest&time=2020-04-01..latest&country=GBR~France, tests performed~ITA~PRT~ESP

    Success.
    Besides which even if you were correct about that graph proving track and trace is working which you arent

    Before Harding took over positive test results were running at 0.6 % currently they are running at 0.6% so all you can actually claim is Harding hasn't made things worse yet but then she has only been doing it since the first week of august and she has plenty of time to fuck it up still. What you cant claim from that graph even if we didn't think it bollocks and not comparing like with like is she has made a positive difference because since she took over the rates haven't changed. At best you could claim the previous leader did all the hard work and now she is coming in and trying to claim the credit
    Oh dear this is embarrassing for you. Harding was appointed head of Test and Trace in May, not August.

    https://twitter.com/MattHancock/status/1258448905555099649
    It was announced in May she didnt take over till august
    https://www.ft.com/content/a33cf8a5-1017-4ecd-8922-fb922358c0b5 or did you think the ft was 3 months out of date with the news of her taking over?
    or politics home
    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/coronavirus-test-and-trace-boss-dido-harding-to-head-up-new-pandemic-response-body-as-public-health-england-faces-the-chop
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,845
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    fpt

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:



    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.

    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    He can't, spot on Pagan2.

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Quite amusing watching all those who spent the last 4 years stating that character and expertise absolutely do matter in public life (when it comes to an opponent like, say, ooh, I don’t know, J Corbyn) now saying that they don’t matter at all when it relates to one of your mates who believes in Brexit.

    Abbott was the elected leader of a major Western democracy and a Rhodes Scholar; Corbyn was a delusional, barely-educated crank.

    Apart from that, good point!
    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.
    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    Example: Test & Trace

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&year=latest&country=GBR~FRA~ESP~PRT~ITA
    *cough*

    You don't know me at all it seems.
    Its a simple challenge show us a link to some actual source where you can say Dido harding achieved that.

    I can only wait 20 years or so however
    I just did. Harding runs Test & Trace and this is the result Test & Trace is getting compared to other countries.

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&year=latest&country=GBR~FRA~ESP~PRT~ITA
    Second Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/full-list-total-tests-for-covid-19?year=latest&time=2020-04-01..latest&country=GBR~France, tests performed~ITA~PRT~ESP

    Success.
    Besides which even if you were correct about that graph proving track and trace is working which you arent

    Before Harding took over positive test results were running at 0.6 % currently they are running at 0.6% so all you can actually claim is Harding hasn't made things worse yet but then she has only been doing it since the first week of august and she has plenty of time to fuck it up still. What you cant claim from that graph even if we didn't think it bollocks and not comparing like with like is she has made a positive difference because since she took over the rates haven't changed. At best you could claim the previous leader did all the hard work and now she is coming in and trying to claim the credit
    Oh dear this is embarrassing for you. Harding was appointed head of Test and Trace in May, not August.

    https://twitter.com/MattHancock/status/1258448905555099649
    It was announced in May she didnt take over till august
    https://www.ft.com/content/a33cf8a5-1017-4ecd-8922-fb922358c0b5 or did you think the ft was 3 months out of date with the news of her taking over?
    or politics home
    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/coronavirus-test-and-trace-boss-dido-harding-to-head-up-new-pandemic-response-body-as-public-health-england-faces-the-chop
    oh and

    The revamped app began new public trials on August 13 after months of setbacks. The app will be based on Apple and Google’s decentralised model. NHSX has been working with the tech giants to develop a new version of the app after abandoning its original model in June.

    This is the app you claim drove it all....quite an achievement in two weeks isnt it
  • Options
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    fpt

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:



    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.

    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    He can't, spot on Pagan2.

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Quite amusing watching all those who spent the last 4 years stating that character and expertise absolutely do matter in public life (when it comes to an opponent like, say, ooh, I don’t know, J Corbyn) now saying that they don’t matter at all when it relates to one of your mates who believes in Brexit.

    Abbott was the elected leader of a major Western democracy and a Rhodes Scholar; Corbyn was a delusional, barely-educated crank.

    Apart from that, good point!
    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.
    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    Example: Test & Trace

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&year=latest&country=GBR~FRA~ESP~PRT~ITA
    *cough*

    You don't know me at all it seems.
    Its a simple challenge show us a link to some actual source where you can say Dido harding achieved that.

    I can only wait 20 years or so however
    I just did. Harding runs Test & Trace and this is the result Test & Trace is getting compared to other countries.

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&year=latest&country=GBR~FRA~ESP~PRT~ITA
    Second Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/full-list-total-tests-for-covid-19?year=latest&time=2020-04-01..latest&country=GBR~France, tests performed~ITA~PRT~ESP

    Success.
    Besides which even if you were correct about that graph proving track and trace is working which you arent

    Before Harding took over positive test results were running at 0.6 % currently they are running at 0.6% so all you can actually claim is Harding hasn't made things worse yet but then she has only been doing it since the first week of august and she has plenty of time to fuck it up still. What you cant claim from that graph even if we didn't think it bollocks and not comparing like with like is she has made a positive difference because since she took over the rates haven't changed. At best you could claim the previous leader did all the hard work and now she is coming in and trying to claim the credit
    Oh dear this is embarrassing for you. Harding was appointed head of Test and Trace in May, not August.

    https://twitter.com/MattHancock/status/1258448905555099649
    It was announced in May she didnt take over till august
    https://www.ft.com/content/a33cf8a5-1017-4ecd-8922-fb922358c0b5 or did you think the ft was 3 months out of date with the news of her taking over?
    or politics home
    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/coronavirus-test-and-trace-boss-dido-harding-to-head-up-new-pandemic-response-body-as-public-health-england-faces-the-chop
    You're totally wrong. That's her taking over a new body, she'd already been head of Test & Trace for months before then. Both articles specifically refer to her as already being the head of the Test & Trace program, which she'd been for months by then.

    When they had the daily press briefings she frequently appeared with Matt Hancock.

    Who do you think was heading up Test and Trace in June?
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The disjoint between the polling in swing states like Michigan and the betting markets is quite perplexing. Certainly the betting markets give the impression of fighting the last war. 538 has Trump with a 30% chance of winning, that feels about right for now.

    I think there's a 30% chance of a narrow Trump win, a 40% chance of a narrow Biden win, and a 30% chance of a big Biden win.
    Yup, I think so too. And in most of the scenarios where Biden wins the Dems would take the Senate as well.
    It's possible (just) that the Dems take the Senate, but Trump the Presidency.

    Republicans lose Arizona, Colorado and Maine in the Senate, but gain Alabama.
    Result 51 - 49 Republicans to Democrats.

    But there's also Iowa, Georgia (x2), Kentucky, Montana, and North Carolina. Now, will the Dems win all of these? Probably not. But I could easily see the Special election in Georgia in January resulting in a Democratic pickup. And Joni Ernst looks vulnerable in Iowa.
    Is there really no polling on the Alabama senate race?
  • Options
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    fpt

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:



    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.

    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    He can't, spot on Pagan2.

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Quite amusing watching all those who spent the last 4 years stating that character and expertise absolutely do matter in public life (when it comes to an opponent like, say, ooh, I don’t know, J Corbyn) now saying that they don’t matter at all when it relates to one of your mates who believes in Brexit.

    Abbott was the elected leader of a major Western democracy and a Rhodes Scholar; Corbyn was a delusional, barely-educated crank.

    Apart from that, good point!
    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.
    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    Example: Test & Trace

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&year=latest&country=GBR~FRA~ESP~PRT~ITA
    *cough*

    You don't know me at all it seems.
    Its a simple challenge show us a link to some actual source where you can say Dido harding achieved that.

    I can only wait 20 years or so however
    I just did. Harding runs Test & Trace and this is the result Test & Trace is getting compared to other countries.

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&year=latest&country=GBR~FRA~ESP~PRT~ITA
    Second Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/full-list-total-tests-for-covid-19?year=latest&time=2020-04-01..latest&country=GBR~France, tests performed~ITA~PRT~ESP

    Success.
    Besides which even if you were correct about that graph proving track and trace is working which you arent

    Before Harding took over positive test results were running at 0.6 % currently they are running at 0.6% so all you can actually claim is Harding hasn't made things worse yet but then she has only been doing it since the first week of august and she has plenty of time to fuck it up still. What you cant claim from that graph even if we didn't think it bollocks and not comparing like with like is she has made a positive difference because since she took over the rates haven't changed. At best you could claim the previous leader did all the hard work and now she is coming in and trying to claim the credit
    Oh dear this is embarrassing for you. Harding was appointed head of Test and Trace in May, not August.

    https://twitter.com/MattHancock/status/1258448905555099649
    It was announced in May she didnt take over till august
    https://www.ft.com/content/a33cf8a5-1017-4ecd-8922-fb922358c0b5 or did you think the ft was 3 months out of date with the news of her taking over?
    or politics home
    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/coronavirus-test-and-trace-boss-dido-harding-to-head-up-new-pandemic-response-body-as-public-health-england-faces-the-chop
    oh and

    The revamped app began new public trials on August 13 after months of setbacks. The app will be based on Apple and Google’s decentralised model. NHSX has been working with the tech giants to develop a new version of the app after abandoning its original model in June.

    This is the app you claim drove it all....quite an achievement in two weeks isnt it
    The app didn't drive anything. When did I mention an app? I said Test and Trace. Which is about Testing and Tracing. Not an app.

    I even gave links, not to an app, but to testing numbers. The clue might be in the name Test and Trace.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,712
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,845

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    fpt

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:



    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.

    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    He can't, spot on Pagan2.

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Quite amusing watching all those who spent the last 4 years stating that character and expertise absolutely do matter in public life (when it comes to an opponent like, say, ooh, I don’t know, J Corbyn) now saying that they don’t matter at all when it relates to one of your mates who believes in Brexit.

    Abbott was the elected leader of a major Western democracy and a Rhodes Scholar; Corbyn was a delusional, barely-educated crank.

    Apart from that, good point!
    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.
    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    Example: Test & Trace

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&year=latest&country=GBR~FRA~ESP~PRT~ITA
    *cough*

    You don't know me at all it seems.
    Its a simple challenge show us a link to some actual source where you can say Dido harding achieved that.

    I can only wait 20 years or so however
    I just did. Harding runs Test & Trace and this is the result Test & Trace is getting compared to other countries.

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&year=latest&country=GBR~FRA~ESP~PRT~ITA
    Second Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/full-list-total-tests-for-covid-19?year=latest&time=2020-04-01..latest&country=GBR~France, tests performed~ITA~PRT~ESP

    Success.
    Besides which even if you were correct about that graph proving track and trace is working which you arent

    Before Harding took over positive test results were running at 0.6 % currently they are running at 0.6% so all you can actually claim is Harding hasn't made things worse yet but then she has only been doing it since the first week of august and she has plenty of time to fuck it up still. What you cant claim from that graph even if we didn't think it bollocks and not comparing like with like is she has made a positive difference because since she took over the rates haven't changed. At best you could claim the previous leader did all the hard work and now she is coming in and trying to claim the credit
    Oh dear this is embarrassing for you. Harding was appointed head of Test and Trace in May, not August.

    https://twitter.com/MattHancock/status/1258448905555099649
    It was announced in May she didnt take over till august
    https://www.ft.com/content/a33cf8a5-1017-4ecd-8922-fb922358c0b5 or did you think the ft was 3 months out of date with the news of her taking over?
    or politics home
    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/coronavirus-test-and-trace-boss-dido-harding-to-head-up-new-pandemic-response-body-as-public-health-england-faces-the-chop
    oh and

    The revamped app began new public trials on August 13 after months of setbacks. The app will be based on Apple and Google’s decentralised model. NHSX has been working with the tech giants to develop a new version of the app after abandoning its original model in June.

    This is the app you claim drove it all....quite an achievement in two weeks isnt it
    The app didn't drive anything. When did I mention an app? I said Test and Trace. Which is about Testing and Tracing. Not an app.

    I even gave links, not to an app, but to testing numbers. The clue might be in the name Test and Trace.
    You gave a link that showed things had improved before she ever took over and she has done nothing to increase that rate yet you cite it as one of her successes even though she had bugger all to do with it. She is purely a crony with no use given a sinecure
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,845

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    fpt

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:



    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.

    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    He can't, spot on Pagan2.

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Quite amusing watching all those who spent the last 4 years stating that character and expertise absolutely do matter in public life (when it comes to an opponent like, say, ooh, I don’t know, J Corbyn) now saying that they don’t matter at all when it relates to one of your mates who believes in Brexit.

    Abbott was the elected leader of a major Western democracy and a Rhodes Scholar; Corbyn was a delusional, barely-educated crank.

    Apart from that, good point!
    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.
    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    Example: Test & Trace

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&year=latest&country=GBR~FRA~ESP~PRT~ITA
    *cough*

    You don't know me at all it seems.
    Its a simple challenge show us a link to some actual source where you can say Dido harding achieved that.

    I can only wait 20 years or so however
    I just did. Harding runs Test & Trace and this is the result Test & Trace is getting compared to other countries.

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&year=latest&country=GBR~FRA~ESP~PRT~ITA
    Second Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/full-list-total-tests-for-covid-19?year=latest&time=2020-04-01..latest&country=GBR~France, tests performed~ITA~PRT~ESP

    Success.
    Besides which even if you were correct about that graph proving track and trace is working which you arent

    Before Harding took over positive test results were running at 0.6 % currently they are running at 0.6% so all you can actually claim is Harding hasn't made things worse yet but then she has only been doing it since the first week of august and she has plenty of time to fuck it up still. What you cant claim from that graph even if we didn't think it bollocks and not comparing like with like is she has made a positive difference because since she took over the rates haven't changed. At best you could claim the previous leader did all the hard work and now she is coming in and trying to claim the credit
    Oh dear this is embarrassing for you. Harding was appointed head of Test and Trace in May, not August.

    https://twitter.com/MattHancock/status/1258448905555099649
    It was announced in May she didnt take over till august
    https://www.ft.com/content/a33cf8a5-1017-4ecd-8922-fb922358c0b5 or did you think the ft was 3 months out of date with the news of her taking over?
    or politics home
    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/coronavirus-test-and-trace-boss-dido-harding-to-head-up-new-pandemic-response-body-as-public-health-england-faces-the-chop
    oh and

    The revamped app began new public trials on August 13 after months of setbacks. The app will be based on Apple and Google’s decentralised model. NHSX has been working with the tech giants to develop a new version of the app after abandoning its original model in June.

    This is the app you claim drove it all....quite an achievement in two weeks isnt it
    The app didn't drive anything. When did I mention an app? I said Test and Trace. Which is about Testing and Tracing. Not an app.

    I even gave links, not to an app, but to testing numbers. The clue might be in the name Test and Trace.
    If harding had ever achieved anything you would be able to say Harding did this which caused that.....putting someone in the top job doesnt mean they contributed in anyway shape or form. Enlighten us what did she actually do and as I said the successful bit is local track and trace not the national bit which is still a failure and the bit she is in actual charge of.
  • Options
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    fpt

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:



    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.

    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    He can't, spot on Pagan2.

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Quite amusing watching all those who spent the last 4 years stating that character and expertise absolutely do matter in public life (when it comes to an opponent like, say, ooh, I don’t know, J Corbyn) now saying that they don’t matter at all when it relates to one of your mates who believes in Brexit.

    Abbott was the elected leader of a major Western democracy and a Rhodes Scholar; Corbyn was a delusional, barely-educated crank.

    Apart from that, good point!
    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.
    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    Example: Test & Trace

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&year=latest&country=GBR~FRA~ESP~PRT~ITA
    *cough*

    You don't know me at all it seems.
    Its a simple challenge show us a link to some actual source where you can say Dido harding achieved that.

    I can only wait 20 years or so however
    I just did. Harding runs Test & Trace and this is the result Test & Trace is getting compared to other countries.

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&year=latest&country=GBR~FRA~ESP~PRT~ITA
    Second Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/full-list-total-tests-for-covid-19?year=latest&time=2020-04-01..latest&country=GBR~France, tests performed~ITA~PRT~ESP

    Success.
    Besides which even if you were correct about that graph proving track and trace is working which you arent

    Before Harding took over positive test results were running at 0.6 % currently they are running at 0.6% so all you can actually claim is Harding hasn't made things worse yet but then she has only been doing it since the first week of august and she has plenty of time to fuck it up still. What you cant claim from that graph even if we didn't think it bollocks and not comparing like with like is she has made a positive difference because since she took over the rates haven't changed. At best you could claim the previous leader did all the hard work and now she is coming in and trying to claim the credit
    Oh dear this is embarrassing for you. Harding was appointed head of Test and Trace in May, not August.

    https://twitter.com/MattHancock/status/1258448905555099649
    It was announced in May she didnt take over till august
    https://www.ft.com/content/a33cf8a5-1017-4ecd-8922-fb922358c0b5 or did you think the ft was 3 months out of date with the news of her taking over?
    or politics home
    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/coronavirus-test-and-trace-boss-dido-harding-to-head-up-new-pandemic-response-body-as-public-health-england-faces-the-chop
    oh and

    The revamped app began new public trials on August 13 after months of setbacks. The app will be based on Apple and Google’s decentralised model. NHSX has been working with the tech giants to develop a new version of the app after abandoning its original model in June.

    This is the app you claim drove it all....quite an achievement in two weeks isnt it
    The app didn't drive anything. When did I mention an app? I said Test and Trace. Which is about Testing and Tracing. Not an app.

    I even gave links, not to an app, but to testing numbers. The clue might be in the name Test and Trace.
    You gave a link that showed things had improved before she ever took over and she has done nothing to increase that rate yet you cite it as one of her successes even though she had bugger all to do with it. She is purely a crony with no use given a sinecure
    She took over as head of Test and Trace in May.

    Who do you think was heading Test and Trace when the rate went down? Give a name for that person you think deserves credit.
  • Options
    EPGEPG Posts: 6,013
    Snyder and friends give permission to Republicans to vote Biden. I fear what many of them are looking for is, instead, permission to vote Trump.
  • Options
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    fpt

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:



    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.

    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    He can't, spot on Pagan2.

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Quite amusing watching all those who spent the last 4 years stating that character and expertise absolutely do matter in public life (when it comes to an opponent like, say, ooh, I don’t know, J Corbyn) now saying that they don’t matter at all when it relates to one of your mates who believes in Brexit.

    Abbott was the elected leader of a major Western democracy and a Rhodes Scholar; Corbyn was a delusional, barely-educated crank.

    Apart from that, good point!
    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.
    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    Example: Test & Trace

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&year=latest&country=GBR~FRA~ESP~PRT~ITA
    *cough*

    You don't know me at all it seems.
    Its a simple challenge show us a link to some actual source where you can say Dido harding achieved that.

    I can only wait 20 years or so however
    I just did. Harding runs Test & Trace and this is the result Test & Trace is getting compared to other countries.

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&year=latest&country=GBR~FRA~ESP~PRT~ITA
    Second Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/full-list-total-tests-for-covid-19?year=latest&time=2020-04-01..latest&country=GBR~France, tests performed~ITA~PRT~ESP

    Success.
    Besides which even if you were correct about that graph proving track and trace is working which you arent

    Before Harding took over positive test results were running at 0.6 % currently they are running at 0.6% so all you can actually claim is Harding hasn't made things worse yet but then she has only been doing it since the first week of august and she has plenty of time to fuck it up still. What you cant claim from that graph even if we didn't think it bollocks and not comparing like with like is she has made a positive difference because since she took over the rates haven't changed. At best you could claim the previous leader did all the hard work and now she is coming in and trying to claim the credit
    Oh dear this is embarrassing for you. Harding was appointed head of Test and Trace in May, not August.

    https://twitter.com/MattHancock/status/1258448905555099649
    It was announced in May she didnt take over till august
    https://www.ft.com/content/a33cf8a5-1017-4ecd-8922-fb922358c0b5 or did you think the ft was 3 months out of date with the news of her taking over?
    or politics home
    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/coronavirus-test-and-trace-boss-dido-harding-to-head-up-new-pandemic-response-body-as-public-health-england-faces-the-chop
    oh and

    The revamped app began new public trials on August 13 after months of setbacks. The app will be based on Apple and Google’s decentralised model. NHSX has been working with the tech giants to develop a new version of the app after abandoning its original model in June.

    This is the app you claim drove it all....quite an achievement in two weeks isnt it
    The app didn't drive anything. When did I mention an app? I said Test and Trace. Which is about Testing and Tracing. Not an app.

    I even gave links, not to an app, but to testing numbers. The clue might be in the name Test and Trace.
    If harding had ever achieved anything you would be able to say Harding did this which caused that.....putting someone in the top job doesnt mean they contributed in anyway shape or form. Enlighten us what did she actually do and as I said the successful bit is local track and trace not the national bit which is still a failure and the bit she is in actual charge of.
    I am able to say it and I have said it.

    Enlighten us as to her supposed failure please? I gave evidence as to her success, clear unambiguous evidence that our positivity rate is just 0.6% currently which is a fraction of what it was in May when she took over and a fraction of other nations rates. That is a remarkably low positivity rate and is a great success.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,458
    On testing/cases. The most important numbers are these -

    image

    This is the ONS infection survey. This means that the infection rate in the community is stable. The increasing cases -

    image

    Are from finding a larger and larger percentage of the cases occurring.

    Given that the ONS estimate to 2200 cases per day in England and Wales, we are already seeing the testing program finding half the cases. And that appears to be steadily increasing.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    rcs1000 said:

    If you want a wonderfully nightmarish scenario, how's this:

    It's 269-269 on the night.

    So, Trump is President, but the Senate chooses the VP.

    The Dems make three pickups net, but the Georgia Special is a Jungle Primary type affair, which won't be resolved until January.

    Does Kelly Loeffler (the current appointed Senator) get to vote, or do they wait until the results for her State's special election are known?

    Such a clusterfuck would serve both parties right - for giving the voters this godawful choice.

    America desperately needs a viable third party to break the current 50.5 - 49.5 democratic stalemate.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,825
    edited September 2020
    Foxy said:

    FPT, quite a monument to hubris and English exceptionalism.

    Unfortunately, I fear that we are no different to France and Spain, just a few weeks behind.

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Quite amusing watching all those who spent the last 4 years stating that character and expertise absolutely do matter in public life (when it comes to an opponent like, say, ooh, I don’t know, J Corbyn) now saying that they don’t matter at all when it relates to one of your mates who believes in Brexit.

    Abbott was the elected leader of a major Western democracy and a Rhodes Scholar; Corbyn was a delusional, barely-educated crank.

    Apart from that, good point!
    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.
    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    He can't, spot on Pagan2.

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Quite amusing watching all those who spent the last 4 years stating that character and expertise absolutely do matter in public life (when it comes to an opponent like, say, ooh, I don’t know, J Corbyn) now saying that they don’t matter at all when it relates to one of your mates who believes in Brexit.

    Abbott was the elected leader of a major Western democracy and a Rhodes Scholar; Corbyn was a delusional, barely-educated crank.

    Apart from that, good point!
    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.
    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    Example: Test & Trace

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&year=latest&country=GBR~FRA~ESP~PRT~ITA
    *cough*

    You don't know me at all it seems.
    Its a simple challenge show us a link to some actual source where you can say Dido harding achieved that.

    I can only wait 20 years or so however
    I just did. Harding runs Test & Trace and this is the result Test & Trace is getting compared to other countries.

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&year=latest&country=GBR~FRA~ESP~PRT~ITA
    Second Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/full-list-total-tests-for-covid-19?year=latest&time=2020-04-01..latest&country=GBR~France, tests performed~ITA~PRT~ESP

    Success.
    I will never understand why English exceptionalism is reacted to as some unique and foolish trait, as though nowhere else has ever overestimated its own goodness at something.

    Edit: I'd go so far as to say the handringedness of banging on about the exceptionalism is, itself, an example of exceptionalism, in insisting we must be doing it more than other places.
  • Options
    Indeed Malmesbury. Our Test and Trace is doing a wonderful job and its a shame are so relentlessly negative they can't even acknowledge when we get something right.

    Your chart on the top-right "Percentage testing positive for Covid-19" is the one I linked to which I referred to as the "Positivity rate" at 0.6% - and it is remarkable how that has not just come down but stayed steady.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,825
    I know people who feel, at times, that we overdo the honouring of soldiers. But I've never come across someone who (openly) thinks like Trump on these matters. I cannot conceive of the levels of self confidence the man has to say so much of what he says.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,825
    HYUFD said:
    There was a prophecy and everything, they made a movie about it.

    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8235296/

  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,825
    rcs1000 said:

    If you want a wonderfully nightmarish scenario, how's this:

    It's 269-269 on the night.

    So, Trump is President, but the Senate chooses the VP.

    The Dems make three pickups net, but the Georgia Special is a Jungle Primary type affair, which won't be resolved until January.

    Does Kelly Loeffler (the current appointed Senator) get to vote, or do they wait until the results for her State's special election are known?

    Sometimes it feels like you can have too much detail in the rules, and in trying to cover every conceivable scenario rather than have accepted flexibility it just opens up potential for really intensive confusion when the attempt to cover all scenarios inevitably falls short.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,825
    If Trump still wins I wonder if the more progressive Democrats will blame an ill guided attempt to appeal to moderate Republicans.
  • Options
    kle4 said:
    I think this is the prophecy that you were looking for.

    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,712

    Foxy said:

    FPT, quite a monument to hubris and English exceptionalism.

    Unfortunately, I fear that we are no different to France and Spain, just a few weeks behind.

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Quite amusing watching all those who spent the last 4 years stating that character and expertise absolutely do matter in public life (when it comes to an opponent like, say, ooh, I don’t know, J Corbyn) now saying that they don’t matter at all when it relates to one of your mates who believes in Brexit.

    Abbott was the elected leader of a major Western democracy and a Rhodes Scholar; Corbyn was a delusional, barely-educated crank.

    Apart from that, good point!
    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.
    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    He can't, spot on Pagan2.

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Quite amusing watching all those who spent the last 4 years stating that character and expertise absolutely do matter in public life (when it comes to an opponent like, say, ooh, I don’t know, J Corbyn) now saying that they don’t matter at all when it relates to one of your mates who believes in Brexit.

    Abbott was the elected leader of a major Western democracy and a Rhodes Scholar; Corbyn was a delusional, barely-educated crank.

    Apart from that, good point!
    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.
    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    Example: Test & Trace

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&year=latest&country=GBR~FRA~ESP~PRT~ITA
    *cough*

    You don't know me at all it seems.
    Its a simple challenge show us a link to some actual source where you can say Dido harding achieved that.

    I can only wait 20 years or so however
    I just did. Harding runs Test & Trace and this is the result Test & Trace is getting compared to other countries.

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&year=latest&country=GBR~FRA~ESP~PRT~ITA
    Second Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/full-list-total-tests-for-covid-19?year=latest&time=2020-04-01..latest&country=GBR~France, tests performed~ITA~PRT~ESP

    Success.


    Will be easy enough to check these charts in two weeks time to find out.

    Though by the end of August the UK had done 13.5 million tests and Spain 6.5 million. Quite a difference there.

    UK tests running at a daily positivity rate of 0.6% - Spanish tests running at a daily positivity rate of 8.8%. Quite a difference there.

    I think its a shame people feel so bent out of shape they can't give credit where its due, people are prepared so easily to attack others - but to be running a system which has ran literally more than double the number of tests of Spain - and to have a positive rate that is down by over 90% of Spain's rate . . . if that isn't a success then what is?
    Sadly, I think we are simply on a slightly different part of the covid rollercoaster, in a similar place to Spain and France maybe six weeks ago. Like I said, Hubris and English exceptionalism. This account is worth reading of a recent cluster, and doesn't show T and T in a good light.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/02/race-to-track-200-people-on-flight-after-officials-fail-to-tell-airline-of-covid-cases
  • Options
    Foxy said:
    The US has probably past a grim milestone today - or will tomorrow - when the stats are next updated I expect it will show that the USA will have overtaken Sweden on deaths per capita.
  • Options
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    FPT, quite a monument to hubris and English exceptionalism.

    Unfortunately, I fear that we are no different to France and Spain, just a few weeks behind.

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Quite amusing watching all those who spent the last 4 years stating that character and expertise absolutely do matter in public life (when it comes to an opponent like, say, ooh, I don’t know, J Corbyn) now saying that they don’t matter at all when it relates to one of your mates who believes in Brexit.

    Abbott was the elected leader of a major Western democracy and a Rhodes Scholar; Corbyn was a delusional, barely-educated crank.

    Apart from that, good point!
    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.
    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    He can't, spot on Pagan2.

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Quite amusing watching all those who spent the last 4 years stating that character and expertise absolutely do matter in public life (when it comes to an opponent like, say, ooh, I don’t know, J Corbyn) now saying that they don’t matter at all when it relates to one of your mates who believes in Brexit.

    Abbott was the elected leader of a major Western democracy and a Rhodes Scholar; Corbyn was a delusional, barely-educated crank.

    Apart from that, good point!
    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.
    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    Example: Test & Trace

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&year=latest&country=GBR~FRA~ESP~PRT~ITA
    *cough*

    You don't know me at all it seems.
    Its a simple challenge show us a link to some actual source where you can say Dido harding achieved that.

    I can only wait 20 years or so however
    I just did. Harding runs Test & Trace and this is the result Test & Trace is getting compared to other countries.

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&year=latest&country=GBR~FRA~ESP~PRT~ITA
    Second Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/full-list-total-tests-for-covid-19?year=latest&time=2020-04-01..latest&country=GBR~France, tests performed~ITA~PRT~ESP

    Success.


    Will be easy enough to check these charts in two weeks time to find out.

    Though by the end of August the UK had done 13.5 million tests and Spain 6.5 million. Quite a difference there.

    UK tests running at a daily positivity rate of 0.6% - Spanish tests running at a daily positivity rate of 8.8%. Quite a difference there.

    I think its a shame people feel so bent out of shape they can't give credit where its due, people are prepared so easily to attack others - but to be running a system which has ran literally more than double the number of tests of Spain - and to have a positive rate that is down by over 90% of Spain's rate . . . if that isn't a success then what is?
    Sadly, I think we are simply on a slightly different part of the covid rollercoaster, in a similar place to Spain and France maybe six weeks ago. Like I said, Hubris and English exceptionalism. This account is worth reading of a recent cluster, and doesn't show T and T in a good light.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/02/race-to-track-200-people-on-flight-after-officials-fail-to-tell-airline-of-covid-cases
    There are issues that happen, of that there is no doubt, but we are not remotely in a similar place to Spain six weeks ago (although you've moved it on from two weeks ago I see).

    Six weeks ago Spain's positivity rate was 4.4% - ours is 0.6%
    Six weeks ago Spain had done 4.4m tests versus our then 8.4m or now 14m
  • Options
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,714
    edited September 2020
    When the SNP said the first referendum would be a once in a generation event, I knew that would actually turn out to mean about 5 to 10 years.
  • Options
    Andy_JS said:

    When the SNP said the first referendum would be a once in a generation event, I knew that would actually turn out to mean about 5 to 10 years.

    It doesn't matter what they said then, it matters what they say now.

    If they say now they want another referendum and if the voters vote for them, that is democracy. Plain and simple.

    I believe in democracy and democracy trumps all - even prior commitments.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,030
    Blair on BBC1 Newscast now
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,030

    Foxy said:
    The US has probably past a grim milestone today - or will tomorrow - when the stats are next updated I expect it will show that the USA will have overtaken Sweden on deaths per capita.
    Sweden and the USA are also likely to overtake Italy on deaths per capita shortly
  • Options
    I'm in a somewhat conflicted position.

    If the SNP win next year, I think they are entitled to their referendum. I won't take a position on that but I hope they stay. But I can totally see why they would vote to go.

    But that makes the chance of Labour getting back into office quite challenging - and living in England it's then more Tory rule.

    We really need to not be relying on the SNP, it seems very risky.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,030

    rcs1000 said:

    If you want a wonderfully nightmarish scenario, how's this:

    It's 269-269 on the night.

    So, Trump is President, but the Senate chooses the VP.

    The Dems make three pickups net, but the Georgia Special is a Jungle Primary type affair, which won't be resolved until January.

    Does Kelly Loeffler (the current appointed Senator) get to vote, or do they wait until the results for her State's special election are known?

    Such a clusterfuck would serve both parties right - for giving the voters this godawful choice.

    America desperately needs a viable third party to break the current 50.5 - 49.5 democratic stalemate.
    Had it been Trump v Sanders, Trump would likely be polling ahead now.

    A third party US version of the LDs really would not make any difference
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,714
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    If you want a wonderfully nightmarish scenario, how's this:

    It's 269-269 on the night.

    So, Trump is President, but the Senate chooses the VP.

    The Dems make three pickups net, but the Georgia Special is a Jungle Primary type affair, which won't be resolved until January.

    Does Kelly Loeffler (the current appointed Senator) get to vote, or do they wait until the results for her State's special election are known?

    Such a clusterfuck would serve both parties right - for giving the voters this godawful choice.

    America desperately needs a viable third party to break the current 50.5 - 49.5 democratic stalemate.
    Had it been Trump v Sanders, Trump would likely be polling ahead now.

    A third party US version of the LDs really would not make any difference
    Biden would be the perfect candidate if he was 10 or 15 years younger.
  • Options
    kle4 said:

    If Trump still wins I wonder if the more progressive Democrats will blame an ill guided attempt to appeal to moderate Republicans.

    Surely they will have to blame it (correctly) on having run a senile has-been as a candidate. Literally the only quality Biden has is that he isn't Trump. That may be enough, but it's possible it isn't. The problem for the Dems is that for some inexplicable reason they keep picking exceptionally poor candidates.
    Watching from afar, neither side seem to have any actual policies - Biden's main selling point is that he isn't Trump, whilst Trump's is that he's not Biden.
    Of course this is partly because of the way American politics is centred on getting "your guys" onto the Supreme Court. For a lot of voters on both sides, it's not really about who gets to sit in the oval office, but about appointments to the SC which may get you the judgements you want. This is particularly relevant given the current culture wars, where most contraversial decisions end up being fought through the SC, rather than decided by elected politicians. The practical outworking (for both sides) is that your guy being a dribbling idiot doesn't matter that much, provided he wins...
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    If you want a wonderfully nightmarish scenario, how's this:

    It's 269-269 on the night.

    So, Trump is President, but the Senate chooses the VP.

    The Dems make three pickups net, but the Georgia Special is a Jungle Primary type affair, which won't be resolved until January.

    Does Kelly Loeffler (the current appointed Senator) get to vote, or do they wait until the results for her State's special election are known?

    Such a clusterfuck would serve both parties right - for giving the voters this godawful choice.

    America desperately needs a viable third party to break the current 50.5 - 49.5 democratic stalemate.
    Had it been Trump v Sanders, Trump would likely be polling ahead now.

    A third party US version of the LDs really would not make any difference
    Biden would be the perfect candidate if he was 10 or 15 years younger.
    If he was 10 or 15 years younger his libido would have been causing problems.
  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,151
    edited September 2020
    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    If you want a wonderfully nightmarish scenario, how's this:

    It's 269-269 on the night.

    So, Trump is President, but the Senate chooses the VP.

    The Dems make three pickups net, but the Georgia Special is a Jungle Primary type affair, which won't be resolved until January.

    Does Kelly Loeffler (the current appointed Senator) get to vote, or do they wait until the results for her State's special election are known?

    Sometimes it feels like you can have too much detail in the rules, and in trying to cover every conceivable scenario rather than have accepted flexibility it just opens up potential for really intensive confusion when the attempt to cover all scenarios inevitably falls short.
    There's a good example of this in the crypto markets, there are currently two competing systems, Augur and Omen. In both cases anybody can create a market, so unlike a bookmaker or Betfair it's often being written by a non-expert, and it's also possible that the person making the market may want to make it mean something different to what it seems to mean on purpose. (There's one particular user called Poyo who styles himself as a cat with very soft fur who is notorious for making scammy markets.)

    Both have a basic question, but Augur has a "terms and conditions" section where you can put a lot of detail about how a market is defined. Omen doesn't do this - they just have a question title, and leave it to common sense (or ultimately, the Kleros decentralized court system) to work out what it means.

    It generally feels like common sense that you'd want to define the terms, but this can often end up resulting in non-common-sense results, and it also creates scope for people to make a market that doesn't at all mean what it seems like it means, and you have to think like a lawyer to work it out.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited September 2020
    Mr CHB - F**k the IRA but F**k the DUP too.

    I have never respected the DUP and seeing Tweets like that just make me think even more than I will never shed a crocodile tear about Boris screwing over the DUP with the Brexit deal.

    I hope the SNP get independence not out of any anger with Scotland or desire to see Scotland go, but simply because I think its in Scotland's best interests. If I was a Scot I would vote SNP/Yes despite being a right winger.

    I hope that NI goes in part because I want rid of NI. I despise the IRA and loathe its sympathisers at the time, I would never have backed Irish unification pre-peace process but now? I want rid of its troubles, I want rid of its fanaticism and religion, the DUP and Sinn Fein and . . . let them be Ireland's problem, we've dealt with them long enough.

    In the words of someone who probably shouldn't be brought up in discussions about Ireland: "You have sat too long for any good you have been doing lately... Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!"
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,980

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8693995/BBC-boss-Tim-Davie-warns-opinionated-columnists-social-media-warriors-no-place-here.html

    Presumably Andrew Neil will be stopped from Tweeting too, or does it only apply to lefties? Would PB Tories support Andrew Neil also being stopped from Tweeting?

    I thought he had been binned?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,030
    edited September 2020

    Mr CHB - F**k the IRA but F**k the DUP too.

    I have never respected the DUP and seeing Tweets like that just make me think even more than I will never shed a crocodile tear about Boris screwing over the DUP with the Brexit deal.

    I hope the SNP get independence not out of any anger with Scotland or desire to see Scotland go, but simply because I think its in Scotland's best interests. If I was a Scot I would vote SNP/Yes despite being a right winger.

    I hope that NI goes in part because I want rid of NI. I despise the IRA and loathe its sympathisers at the time, I would never have backed Irish unification pre-peace process but now? I want rid of its troubles, I want rid of its fanaticism and religion, the DUP and Sinn Fein and . . . let them be Ireland's problem, we've dealt with them long enough.

    In the words of someone who probably shouldn't be brought up in discussions about Ireland: "You have sat too long for any good you have been doing lately... Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!"

    Well I am a Tory and remain a staunch Unionist.

    Ripping the country in two with border posts and tariffs on exports to and from Scotland, inevitable after a No Deal Brexit or even a basic FTA with the EU would not do us any good, Scotland would effectively be an EU colony in the British Isles.

    It would also be the end of the United Kingdom, we would become simply England and Wales overnight and as for Northern Ireland I would happily give away the Catholic and Sinn Fein, Remain voting counties on the Irish border like Fermanagh and Tyrone to the Republic of Ireland but in Protestant County Antrim every MP is DUP and every local authority voted Leave and it wants to remain with us.

    England, Wales and Antrim would be fine with me, but the UK staying together best of all and that requires unity between the Kingdoms of England and Scotland
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    Mr CHB - F**k the IRA but F**k the DUP too.

    I have never respected the DUP and seeing Tweets like that just make me think even more than I will never shed a crocodile tear about Boris screwing over the DUP with the Brexit deal.

    I hope the SNP get independence not out of any anger with Scotland or desire to see Scotland go, but simply because I think its in Scotland's best interests. If I was a Scot I would vote SNP/Yes despite being a right winger.

    I hope that NI goes in part because I want rid of NI. I despise the IRA and loathe its sympathisers at the time, I would never have backed Irish unification pre-peace process but now? I want rid of its troubles, I want rid of its fanaticism and religion, the DUP and Sinn Fein and . . . let them be Ireland's problem, we've dealt with them long enough.

    In the words of someone who probably shouldn't be brought up in discussions about Ireland: "You have sat too long for any good you have been doing lately... Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!"

    Well I am a Tory and remain a staunch Unionist.

    Ripping the country in two with border posts and tariffs on exports to and from Scotland, inevitable after a No Deal Brexit or even a basic FTA with the EU would not do us any good, Scotland would effectively be an EU colony in the British Isles.

    It would also be the end of the United Kingdom, we would become simply England and Wales overnight and as for Northern Ireland I would happily give away the Catholic and Sinn Fein, Remain voting counties on the Irish border like Fermanagh and Tyrone to the Republic of Ireland but in Protestant County Antrim every MP is DUP and every local authority voted Leave and it wants to remain with us.

    England, Wales and Antrim would be fine with me, but the UK staying together best of all and that requires unity between the Kingdoms of England and Scotland
    There's only one thing for it, HYUFD: join the Labour Party and campaign to stay in the single market.
  • Options
    alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100

    HYUFD said:

    Mr CHB - F**k the IRA but F**k the DUP too.

    I have never respected the DUP and seeing Tweets like that just make me think even more than I will never shed a crocodile tear about Boris screwing over the DUP with the Brexit deal.

    I hope the SNP get independence not out of any anger with Scotland or desire to see Scotland go, but simply because I think its in Scotland's best interests. If I was a Scot I would vote SNP/Yes despite being a right winger.

    I hope that NI goes in part because I want rid of NI. I despise the IRA and loathe its sympathisers at the time, I would never have backed Irish unification pre-peace process but now? I want rid of its troubles, I want rid of its fanaticism and religion, the DUP and Sinn Fein and . . . let them be Ireland's problem, we've dealt with them long enough.

    In the words of someone who probably shouldn't be brought up in discussions about Ireland: "You have sat too long for any good you have been doing lately... Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!"

    Well I am a Tory and remain a staunch Unionist.

    Ripping the country in two with border posts and tariffs on exports to and from Scotland, inevitable after a No Deal Brexit or even a basic FTA with the EU would not do us any good, Scotland would effectively be an EU colony in the British Isles.

    It would also be the end of the United Kingdom, we would become simply England and Wales overnight and as for Northern Ireland I would happily give away the Catholic and Sinn Fein, Remain voting counties on the Irish border like Fermanagh and Tyrone to the Republic of Ireland but in Protestant County Antrim every MP is DUP and every local authority voted Leave and it wants to remain with us.

    England, Wales and Antrim would be fine with me, but the UK staying together best of all and that requires unity between the Kingdoms of England and Scotland
    There's only one thing for it, HYUFD: join the Labour Party and campaign to stay in the single market.
    Not sure that does it for Scotland.
  • Options
    alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100
    RobD said:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8693995/BBC-boss-Tim-Davie-warns-opinionated-columnists-social-media-warriors-no-place-here.html

    Presumably Andrew Neil will be stopped from Tweeting too, or does it only apply to lefties? Would PB Tories support Andrew Neil also being stopped from Tweeting?

    I thought he had been binned?
    Me too. Perhaps his batteries have run out.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,030

    HYUFD said:

    Mr CHB - F**k the IRA but F**k the DUP too.

    I have never respected the DUP and seeing Tweets like that just make me think even more than I will never shed a crocodile tear about Boris screwing over the DUP with the Brexit deal.

    I hope the SNP get independence not out of any anger with Scotland or desire to see Scotland go, but simply because I think its in Scotland's best interests. If I was a Scot I would vote SNP/Yes despite being a right winger.

    I hope that NI goes in part because I want rid of NI. I despise the IRA and loathe its sympathisers at the time, I would never have backed Irish unification pre-peace process but now? I want rid of its troubles, I want rid of its fanaticism and religion, the DUP and Sinn Fein and . . . let them be Ireland's problem, we've dealt with them long enough.

    In the words of someone who probably shouldn't be brought up in discussions about Ireland: "You have sat too long for any good you have been doing lately... Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!"

    Well I am a Tory and remain a staunch Unionist.

    Ripping the country in two with border posts and tariffs on exports to and from Scotland, inevitable after a No Deal Brexit or even a basic FTA with the EU would not do us any good, Scotland would effectively be an EU colony in the British Isles.

    It would also be the end of the United Kingdom, we would become simply England and Wales overnight and as for Northern Ireland I would happily give away the Catholic and Sinn Fein, Remain voting counties on the Irish border like Fermanagh and Tyrone to the Republic of Ireland but in Protestant County Antrim every MP is DUP and every local authority voted Leave and it wants to remain with us.

    England, Wales and Antrim would be fine with me, but the UK staying together best of all and that requires unity between the Kingdoms of England and Scotland
    There's only one thing for it, HYUFD: join the Labour Party and campaign to stay in the single market.
    No need, I support Boris' commitment to respect the 'once in a generation' 2014 vote and ban indyref2 while he remains PM.

    If Starmer wishes to rejoin the single market then call indyref2 if he becomes PM that is up to him
  • Options
    alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    If you want a wonderfully nightmarish scenario, how's this:

    It's 269-269 on the night.

    So, Trump is President, but the Senate chooses the VP.

    The Dems make three pickups net, but the Georgia Special is a Jungle Primary type affair, which won't be resolved until January.

    Does Kelly Loeffler (the current appointed Senator) get to vote, or do they wait until the results for her State's special election are known?

    Such a clusterfuck would serve both parties right - for giving the voters this godawful choice.

    America desperately needs a viable third party to break the current 50.5 - 49.5 democratic stalemate.
    Had it been Trump v Sanders, Trump would likely be polling ahead now.

    A third party US version of the LDs really would not make any difference
    Biden would be the perfect candidate if he was 10 or 15 years younger.
    If he was 10 or 15 years younger his libido would have been causing problems.
    That would have given Trump a respect problem
  • Options
    alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr CHB - F**k the IRA but F**k the DUP too.

    I have never respected the DUP and seeing Tweets like that just make me think even more than I will never shed a crocodile tear about Boris screwing over the DUP with the Brexit deal.

    I hope the SNP get independence not out of any anger with Scotland or desire to see Scotland go, but simply because I think its in Scotland's best interests. If I was a Scot I would vote SNP/Yes despite being a right winger.

    I hope that NI goes in part because I want rid of NI. I despise the IRA and loathe its sympathisers at the time, I would never have backed Irish unification pre-peace process but now? I want rid of its troubles, I want rid of its fanaticism and religion, the DUP and Sinn Fein and . . . let them be Ireland's problem, we've dealt with them long enough.

    In the words of someone who probably shouldn't be brought up in discussions about Ireland: "You have sat too long for any good you have been doing lately... Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!"

    Well I am a Tory and remain a staunch Unionist.

    Ripping the country in two with border posts and tariffs on exports to and from Scotland, inevitable after a No Deal Brexit or even a basic FTA with the EU would not do us any good, Scotland would effectively be an EU colony in the British Isles.

    It would also be the end of the United Kingdom, we would become simply England and Wales overnight and as for Northern Ireland I would happily give away the Catholic and Sinn Fein, Remain voting counties on the Irish border like Fermanagh and Tyrone to the Republic of Ireland but in Protestant County Antrim every MP is DUP and every local authority voted Leave and it wants to remain with us.

    England, Wales and Antrim would be fine with me, but the UK staying together best of all and that requires unity between the Kingdoms of England and Scotland
    There's only one thing for it, HYUFD: join the Labour Party and campaign to stay in the single market.
    No need, I support Boris' commitment to respect the 'once in a generation' 2014 vote and ban indyref2 while he remains PM.

    If Starmer wishes to rejoin the single market then call indyref2 if he becomes PM that is up to him
    Starmer is a prosecutor who requires no vision. He will never contemplate a bridge even if someone else puts it in front of him. Boris has no problem finding the bridge but doesn't know it is one that has to be crossed not merely contemplated. At present, we're fucked either way. Much like the States.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr CHB - F**k the IRA but F**k the DUP too.

    I have never respected the DUP and seeing Tweets like that just make me think even more than I will never shed a crocodile tear about Boris screwing over the DUP with the Brexit deal.

    I hope the SNP get independence not out of any anger with Scotland or desire to see Scotland go, but simply because I think its in Scotland's best interests. If I was a Scot I would vote SNP/Yes despite being a right winger.

    I hope that NI goes in part because I want rid of NI. I despise the IRA and loathe its sympathisers at the time, I would never have backed Irish unification pre-peace process but now? I want rid of its troubles, I want rid of its fanaticism and religion, the DUP and Sinn Fein and . . . let them be Ireland's problem, we've dealt with them long enough.

    In the words of someone who probably shouldn't be brought up in discussions about Ireland: "You have sat too long for any good you have been doing lately... Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!"

    Well I am a Tory and remain a staunch Unionist.

    Ripping the country in two with border posts and tariffs on exports to and from Scotland, inevitable after a No Deal Brexit or even a basic FTA with the EU would not do us any good, Scotland would effectively be an EU colony in the British Isles.

    It would also be the end of the United Kingdom, we would become simply England and Wales overnight and as for Northern Ireland I would happily give away the Catholic and Sinn Fein, Remain voting counties on the Irish border like Fermanagh and Tyrone to the Republic of Ireland but in Protestant County Antrim every MP is DUP and every local authority voted Leave and it wants to remain with us.

    England, Wales and Antrim would be fine with me, but the UK staying together best of all and that requires unity between the Kingdoms of England and Scotland
    There's only one thing for it, HYUFD: join the Labour Party and campaign to stay in the single market.
    No need, I support Boris' commitment to respect the 'once in a generation' 2014 vote and ban indyref2 while he remains PM.

    If Starmer wishes to rejoin the single market then call indyref2 if he becomes PM that is up to him
    What do you think about the idea of a referendum on a concrete deal that is being floated?
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,714
    Both 538 and RCP are in agreement that Biden's polling lead is currently 4% in Pennsylvania and 3% in Florida.
  • Options
    alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr CHB - F**k the IRA but F**k the DUP too.

    I have never respected the DUP and seeing Tweets like that just make me think even more than I will never shed a crocodile tear about Boris screwing over the DUP with the Brexit deal.

    I hope the SNP get independence not out of any anger with Scotland or desire to see Scotland go, but simply because I think its in Scotland's best interests. If I was a Scot I would vote SNP/Yes despite being a right winger.

    I hope that NI goes in part because I want rid of NI. I despise the IRA and loathe its sympathisers at the time, I would never have backed Irish unification pre-peace process but now? I want rid of its troubles, I want rid of its fanaticism and religion, the DUP and Sinn Fein and . . . let them be Ireland's problem, we've dealt with them long enough.

    In the words of someone who probably shouldn't be brought up in discussions about Ireland: "You have sat too long for any good you have been doing lately... Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!"

    Well I am a Tory and remain a staunch Unionist.

    Ripping the country in two with border posts and tariffs on exports to and from Scotland, inevitable after a No Deal Brexit or even a basic FTA with the EU would not do us any good, Scotland would effectively be an EU colony in the British Isles.

    It would also be the end of the United Kingdom, we would become simply England and Wales overnight and as for Northern Ireland I would happily give away the Catholic and Sinn Fein, Remain voting counties on the Irish border like Fermanagh and Tyrone to the Republic of Ireland but in Protestant County Antrim every MP is DUP and every local authority voted Leave and it wants to remain with us.

    England, Wales and Antrim would be fine with me, but the UK staying together best of all and that requires unity between the Kingdoms of England and Scotland
    There's only one thing for it, HYUFD: join the Labour Party and campaign to stay in the single market.
    No need, I support Boris' commitment to respect the 'once in a generation' 2014 vote and ban indyref2 while he remains PM.

    If Starmer wishes to rejoin the single market then call indyref2 if he becomes PM that is up to him
    What do you think about the idea of a referendum on a concrete deal that is being floated?
    I thought Mulberrys did quite a good job
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    Mr CHB - F**k the IRA but F**k the DUP too.

    I have never respected the DUP and seeing Tweets like that just make me think even more than I will never shed a crocodile tear about Boris screwing over the DUP with the Brexit deal.

    I hope the SNP get independence not out of any anger with Scotland or desire to see Scotland go, but simply because I think its in Scotland's best interests. If I was a Scot I would vote SNP/Yes despite being a right winger.

    I hope that NI goes in part because I want rid of NI. I despise the IRA and loathe its sympathisers at the time, I would never have backed Irish unification pre-peace process but now? I want rid of its troubles, I want rid of its fanaticism and religion, the DUP and Sinn Fein and . . . let them be Ireland's problem, we've dealt with them long enough.

    In the words of someone who probably shouldn't be brought up in discussions about Ireland: "You have sat too long for any good you have been doing lately... Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!"

    Well I am a Tory and remain a staunch Unionist.

    Ripping the country in two with border posts and tariffs on exports to and from Scotland, inevitable after a No Deal Brexit or even a basic FTA with the EU would not do us any good, Scotland would effectively be an EU colony in the British Isles.

    It would also be the end of the United Kingdom, we would become simply England and Wales overnight and as for Northern Ireland I would happily give away the Catholic and Sinn Fein, Remain voting counties on the Irish border like Fermanagh and Tyrone to the Republic of Ireland but in Protestant County Antrim every MP is DUP and every local authority voted Leave and it wants to remain with us.

    England, Wales and Antrim would be fine with me, but the UK staying together best of all and that requires unity between the Kingdoms of England and Scotland
    I'm not sure that Scotland and NI going would be the end of the United Kingdom is that great an argument to make to someone who has just said that Scotland and NI should go.

    In the event NI goes so will Antrim just like how London left the EU.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,030
    edited September 2020

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr CHB - F**k the IRA but F**k the DUP too.

    I have never respected the DUP and seeing Tweets like that just make me think even more than I will never shed a crocodile tear about Boris screwing over the DUP with the Brexit deal.

    I hope the SNP get independence not out of any anger with Scotland or desire to see Scotland go, but simply because I think its in Scotland's best interests. If I was a Scot I would vote SNP/Yes despite being a right winger.

    I hope that NI goes in part because I want rid of NI. I despise the IRA and loathe its sympathisers at the time, I would never have backed Irish unification pre-peace process but now? I want rid of its troubles, I want rid of its fanaticism and religion, the DUP and Sinn Fein and . . . let them be Ireland's problem, we've dealt with them long enough.

    In the words of someone who probably shouldn't be brought up in discussions about Ireland: "You have sat too long for any good you have been doing lately... Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!"

    Well I am a Tory and remain a staunch Unionist.

    Ripping the country in two with border posts and tariffs on exports to and from Scotland, inevitable after a No Deal Brexit or even a basic FTA with the EU would not do us any good, Scotland would effectively be an EU colony in the British Isles.

    It would also be the end of the United Kingdom, we would become simply England and Wales overnight and as for Northern Ireland I would happily give away the Catholic and Sinn Fein, Remain voting counties on the Irish border like Fermanagh and Tyrone to the Republic of Ireland but in Protestant County Antrim every MP is DUP and every local authority voted Leave and it wants to remain with us.

    England, Wales and Antrim would be fine with me, but the UK staying together best of all and that requires unity between the Kingdoms of England and Scotland
    There's only one thing for it, HYUFD: join the Labour Party and campaign to stay in the single market.
    No need, I support Boris' commitment to respect the 'once in a generation' 2014 vote and ban indyref2 while he remains PM.

    If Starmer wishes to rejoin the single market then call indyref2 if he becomes PM that is up to him
    What do you think about the idea of a referendum on a concrete deal that is being floated?
    I have no problem with a referendum on a trade deal that ends free movement, regains control of our fishing waters and allows our own trade deals but we have to get one with the EU agreed first
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr CHB - F**k the IRA but F**k the DUP too.

    I have never respected the DUP and seeing Tweets like that just make me think even more than I will never shed a crocodile tear about Boris screwing over the DUP with the Brexit deal.

    I hope the SNP get independence not out of any anger with Scotland or desire to see Scotland go, but simply because I think its in Scotland's best interests. If I was a Scot I would vote SNP/Yes despite being a right winger.

    I hope that NI goes in part because I want rid of NI. I despise the IRA and loathe its sympathisers at the time, I would never have backed Irish unification pre-peace process but now? I want rid of its troubles, I want rid of its fanaticism and religion, the DUP and Sinn Fein and . . . let them be Ireland's problem, we've dealt with them long enough.

    In the words of someone who probably shouldn't be brought up in discussions about Ireland: "You have sat too long for any good you have been doing lately... Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!"

    Well I am a Tory and remain a staunch Unionist.

    Ripping the country in two with border posts and tariffs on exports to and from Scotland, inevitable after a No Deal Brexit or even a basic FTA with the EU would not do us any good, Scotland would effectively be an EU colony in the British Isles.

    It would also be the end of the United Kingdom, we would become simply England and Wales overnight and as for Northern Ireland I would happily give away the Catholic and Sinn Fein, Remain voting counties on the Irish border like Fermanagh and Tyrone to the Republic of Ireland but in Protestant County Antrim every MP is DUP and every local authority voted Leave and it wants to remain with us.

    England, Wales and Antrim would be fine with me, but the UK staying together best of all and that requires unity between the Kingdoms of England and Scotland
    There's only one thing for it, HYUFD: join the Labour Party and campaign to stay in the single market.
    No need, I support Boris' commitment to respect the 'once in a generation' 2014 vote and ban indyref2 while he remains PM.

    If Starmer wishes to rejoin the single market then call indyref2 if he becomes PM that is up to him
    What do you think about the idea of a referendum on a concrete deal that is being floated?

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr CHB - F**k the IRA but F**k the DUP too.

    I have never respected the DUP and seeing Tweets like that just make me think even more than I will never shed a crocodile tear about Boris screwing over the DUP with the Brexit deal.

    I hope the SNP get independence not out of any anger with Scotland or desire to see Scotland go, but simply because I think its in Scotland's best interests. If I was a Scot I would vote SNP/Yes despite being a right winger.

    I hope that NI goes in part because I want rid of NI. I despise the IRA and loathe its sympathisers at the time, I would never have backed Irish unification pre-peace process but now? I want rid of its troubles, I want rid of its fanaticism and religion, the DUP and Sinn Fein and . . . let them be Ireland's problem, we've dealt with them long enough.

    In the words of someone who probably shouldn't be brought up in discussions about Ireland: "You have sat too long for any good you have been doing lately... Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!"

    Well I am a Tory and remain a staunch Unionist.

    Ripping the country in two with border posts and tariffs on exports to and from Scotland, inevitable after a No Deal Brexit or even a basic FTA with the EU would not do us any good, Scotland would effectively be an EU colony in the British Isles.

    It would also be the end of the United Kingdom, we would become simply England and Wales overnight and as for Northern Ireland I would happily give away the Catholic and Sinn Fein, Remain voting counties on the Irish border like Fermanagh and Tyrone to the Republic of Ireland but in Protestant County Antrim every MP is DUP and every local authority voted Leave and it wants to remain with us.

    England, Wales and Antrim would be fine with me, but the UK staying together best of all and that requires unity between the Kingdoms of England and Scotland
    There's only one thing for it, HYUFD: join the Labour Party and campaign to stay in the single market.
    No need, I support Boris' commitment to respect the 'once in a generation' 2014 vote and ban indyref2 while he remains PM.

    If Starmer wishes to rejoin the single market then call indyref2 if he becomes PM that is up to him
    What do you think about the idea of a referendum on a concrete deal that is being floated?
    I have no problem with a referendum on a trade deal that ends free movement, regains control of our fishing waters and allows our own trade deals but we have to get one with the EU agreed first
    I mean a Scottish independence deal.

    https://twitter.com/JGForsyth/status/1301503843704897540
  • Options
    alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100
    HYUFD said:



    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr CHB - F**k the IRA but F**k the DUP too.

    I have never respected the DUP and seeing Tweets like that just make me think even more than I will never shed a crocodile tear about Boris screwing over the DUP with the Brexit deal.

    I hope the SNP get independence not out of any anger with Scotland or desire to see Scotland go, but simply because I think its in Scotland's best interests. If I was a Scot I would vote SNP/Yes despite being a right winger.

    I hope that NI goes in part because I want rid of NI. I despise the IRA and loathe its sympathisers at the time, I would never have backed Irish unification pre-peace process but now? I want rid of its troubles, I want rid of its fanaticism and religion, the DUP and Sinn Fein and . . . let them be Ireland's problem, we've dealt with them long enough.

    In the words of someone who probably shouldn't be brought up in discussions about Ireland: "You have sat too long for any good you have been doing lately... Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!"

    Well I am a Tory and remain a staunch Unionist.

    Ripping the country in two with border posts and tariffs on exports to and from Scotland, inevitable after a No Deal Brexit or even a basic FTA with the EU would not do us any good, Scotland would effectively be an EU colony in the British Isles.

    It would also be the end of the United Kingdom, we would become simply England and Wales overnight and as for Northern Ireland I would happily give away the Catholic and Sinn Fein, Remain voting counties on the Irish border like Fermanagh and Tyrone to the Republic of Ireland but in Protestant County Antrim every MP is DUP and every local authority voted Leave and it wants to remain with us.

    England, Wales and Antrim would be fine with me, but the UK staying together best of all and that requires unity between the Kingdoms of England and Scotland
    There's only one thing for it, HYUFD: join the Labour Party and campaign to stay in the single market.
    No need, I support Boris' commitment to respect the 'once in a generation' 2014 vote and ban indyref2 while he remains PM.

    If Starmer wishes to rejoin the single market then call indyref2 if he becomes PM that is up to him
    What do you think about the idea of a referendum on a concrete deal that is being floated?
    I have no problem with a referendum on a trade deal that ends free movement, regains control of our fishing waters and allows our own trade deals but we have to get one with the EU agreed first
    The EEC morphing into the EU is to blame. Our politicians are bad enough, we can do without more, foreigners too.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,030
    edited September 2020
    Andy_JS said:

    Both 538 and RCP are in agreement that Biden's polling lead is currently 4% in Pennsylvania and 3% in Florida.

    RCP also has Biden's lead at 5.3% in Minnesota, 5% in Arizona, 4% in Wisconsin, 2.6% in Michigan and 0.6% in North Carolina.

    That makes Wisconsin and Pennsylvania the key swing states Biden needs to win to get to 270 votes or more and an EC majority
  • Options
    alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr CHB - F**k the IRA but F**k the DUP too.

    I have never respected the DUP and seeing Tweets like that just make me think even more than I will never shed a crocodile tear about Boris screwing over the DUP with the Brexit deal.

    I hope the SNP get independence not out of any anger with Scotland or desire to see Scotland go, but simply because I think its in Scotland's best interests. If I was a Scot I would vote SNP/Yes despite being a right winger.

    I hope that NI goes in part because I want rid of NI. I despise the IRA and loathe its sympathisers at the time, I would never have backed Irish unification pre-peace process but now? I want rid of its troubles, I want rid of its fanaticism and religion, the DUP and Sinn Fein and . . . let them be Ireland's problem, we've dealt with them long enough.

    In the words of someone who probably shouldn't be brought up in discussions about Ireland: "You have sat too long for any good you have been doing lately... Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!"

    Well I am a Tory and remain a staunch Unionist.

    Ripping the country in two with border posts and tariffs on exports to and from Scotland, inevitable after a No Deal Brexit or even a basic FTA with the EU would not do us any good, Scotland would effectively be an EU colony in the British Isles.

    It would also be the end of the United Kingdom, we would become simply England and Wales overnight and as for Northern Ireland I would happily give away the Catholic and Sinn Fein, Remain voting counties on the Irish border like Fermanagh and Tyrone to the Republic of Ireland but in Protestant County Antrim every MP is DUP and every local authority voted Leave and it wants to remain with us.

    England, Wales and Antrim would be fine with me, but the UK staying together best of all and that requires unity between the Kingdoms of England and Scotland
    There's only one thing for it, HYUFD: join the Labour Party and campaign to stay in the single market.
    No need, I support Boris' commitment to respect the 'once in a generation' 2014 vote and ban indyref2 while he remains PM.

    If Starmer wishes to rejoin the single market then call indyref2 if he becomes PM that is up to him
    What do you think about the idea of a referendum on a concrete deal that is being floated?

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr CHB - F**k the IRA but F**k the DUP too.

    I have never respected the DUP and seeing Tweets like that just make me think even more than I will never shed a crocodile tear about Boris screwing over the DUP with the Brexit deal.

    I hope the SNP get independence not out of any anger with Scotland or desire to see Scotland go, but simply because I think its in Scotland's best interests. If I was a Scot I would vote SNP/Yes despite being a right winger.

    I hope that NI goes in part because I want rid of NI. I despise the IRA and loathe its sympathisers at the time, I would never have backed Irish unification pre-peace process but now? I want rid of its troubles, I want rid of its fanaticism and religion, the DUP and Sinn Fein and . . . let them be Ireland's problem, we've dealt with them long enough.

    In the words of someone who probably shouldn't be brought up in discussions about Ireland: "You have sat too long for any good you have been doing lately... Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!"

    Well I am a Tory and remain a staunch Unionist.

    Ripping the country in two with border posts and tariffs on exports to and from Scotland, inevitable after a No Deal Brexit or even a basic FTA with the EU would not do us any good, Scotland would effectively be an EU colony in the British Isles.

    It would also be the end of the United Kingdom, we would become simply England and Wales overnight and as for Northern Ireland I would happily give away the Catholic and Sinn Fein, Remain voting counties on the Irish border like Fermanagh and Tyrone to the Republic of Ireland but in Protestant County Antrim every MP is DUP and every local authority voted Leave and it wants to remain with us.

    England, Wales and Antrim would be fine with me, but the UK staying together best of all and that requires unity between the Kingdoms of England and Scotland
    There's only one thing for it, HYUFD: join the Labour Party and campaign to stay in the single market.
    No need, I support Boris' commitment to respect the 'once in a generation' 2014 vote and ban indyref2 while he remains PM.

    If Starmer wishes to rejoin the single market then call indyref2 if he becomes PM that is up to him
    What do you think about the idea of a referendum on a concrete deal that is being floated?
    I have no problem with a referendum on a trade deal that ends free movement, regains control of our fishing waters and allows our own trade deals but we have to get one with the EU agreed first
    I mean a Scottish independence deal.

    https://twitter.com/JGForsyth/status/1301503843704897540
    I think I know that bloke. What looks like a moustache is actually nasal hair.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Both 538 and RCP are in agreement that Biden's polling lead is currently 4% in Pennsylvania and 3% in Florida.

    RCP also has Biden's lead at 5.3% in Minnesota, 5% in Arizona, 4% in Wisconsin, 2.6% in Michigan and 0.6% in North Carolina.

    That makes Wisconsin and Pennsylvania the key swing states Biden needs to win to get to 270 votes or more and an EC majority
    Probably better to use 538 for this particular purpose rather than RCP, without the House Effect adjustments you're mostly just comparing which pollsters happened to poll which states.

    That currently gets you to the same conclusion, but with an opposite view as to whether Michigan is surplus to requirements or in the bag.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,030

    HYUFD said:

    Mr CHB - F**k the IRA but F**k the DUP too.

    I have never respected the DUP and seeing Tweets like that just make me think even more than I will never shed a crocodile tear about Boris screwing over the DUP with the Brexit deal.

    I hope the SNP get independence not out of any anger with Scotland or desire to see Scotland go, but simply because I think its in Scotland's best interests. If I was a Scot I would vote SNP/Yes despite being a right winger.

    I hope that NI goes in part because I want rid of NI. I despise the IRA and loathe its sympathisers at the time, I would never have backed Irish unification pre-peace process but now? I want rid of its troubles, I want rid of its fanaticism and religion, the DUP and Sinn Fein and . . . let them be Ireland's problem, we've dealt with them long enough.

    In the words of someone who probably shouldn't be brought up in discussions about Ireland: "You have sat too long for any good you have been doing lately... Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!"

    Well I am a Tory and remain a staunch Unionist.

    Ripping the country in two with border posts and tariffs on exports to and from Scotland, inevitable after a No Deal Brexit or even a basic FTA with the EU would not do us any good, Scotland would effectively be an EU colony in the British Isles.

    It would also be the end of the United Kingdom, we would become simply England and Wales overnight and as for Northern Ireland I would happily give away the Catholic and Sinn Fein, Remain voting counties on the Irish border like Fermanagh and Tyrone to the Republic of Ireland but in Protestant County Antrim every MP is DUP and every local authority voted Leave and it wants to remain with us.

    England, Wales and Antrim would be fine with me, but the UK staying together best of all and that requires unity between the Kingdoms of England and Scotland
    I'm not sure that Scotland and NI going would be the end of the United Kingdom is that great an argument to make to someone who has just said that Scotland and NI should go.

    In the event NI goes so will Antrim just like how London left the EU.
    It would not just be the end of the name of the country and the economic relationship remaining the same with free trade and no borders, there would be customs posts and tariffs between England and Scotland as a result of a hard Brexit and Scotland voting for independence and to return to the EU.

    Antrim will not go, the dominant party in Antrim, the DUP, wants to stay part of the UK and not join the Republic of Ireland, the dominant party in London, Labour, does not want to rejoin the EU and leave the UK
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,030

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr CHB - F**k the IRA but F**k the DUP too.

    I have never respected the DUP and seeing Tweets like that just make me think even more than I will never shed a crocodile tear about Boris screwing over the DUP with the Brexit deal.

    I hope the SNP get independence not out of any anger with Scotland or desire to see Scotland go, but simply because I think its in Scotland's best interests. If I was a Scot I would vote SNP/Yes despite being a right winger.

    I hope that NI goes in part because I want rid of NI. I despise the IRA and loathe its sympathisers at the time, I would never have backed Irish unification pre-peace process but now? I want rid of its troubles, I want rid of its fanaticism and religion, the DUP and Sinn Fein and . . . let them be Ireland's problem, we've dealt with them long enough.

    In the words of someone who probably shouldn't be brought up in discussions about Ireland: "You have sat too long for any good you have been doing lately... Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!"

    Well I am a Tory and remain a staunch Unionist.

    Ripping the country in two with border posts and tariffs on exports to and from Scotland, inevitable after a No Deal Brexit or even a basic FTA with the EU would not do us any good, Scotland would effectively be an EU colony in the British Isles.

    It would also be the end of the United Kingdom, we would become simply England and Wales overnight and as for Northern Ireland I would happily give away the Catholic and Sinn Fein, Remain voting counties on the Irish border like Fermanagh and Tyrone to the Republic of Ireland but in Protestant County Antrim every MP is DUP and every local authority voted Leave and it wants to remain with us.

    England, Wales and Antrim would be fine with me, but the UK staying together best of all and that requires unity between the Kingdoms of England and Scotland
    There's only one thing for it, HYUFD: join the Labour Party and campaign to stay in the single market.
    No need, I support Boris' commitment to respect the 'once in a generation' 2014 vote and ban indyref2 while he remains PM.

    If Starmer wishes to rejoin the single market then call indyref2 if he becomes PM that is up to him
    What do you think about the idea of a referendum on a concrete deal that is being floated?

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr CHB - F**k the IRA but F**k the DUP too.

    I have never respected the DUP and seeing Tweets like that just make me think even more than I will never shed a crocodile tear about Boris screwing over the DUP with the Brexit deal.

    I hope the SNP get independence not out of any anger with Scotland or desire to see Scotland go, but simply because I think its in Scotland's best interests. If I was a Scot I would vote SNP/Yes despite being a right winger.

    I hope that NI goes in part because I want rid of NI. I despise the IRA and loathe its sympathisers at the time, I would never have backed Irish unification pre-peace process but now? I want rid of its troubles, I want rid of its fanaticism and religion, the DUP and Sinn Fein and . . . let them be Ireland's problem, we've dealt with them long enough.

    In the words of someone who probably shouldn't be brought up in discussions about Ireland: "You have sat too long for any good you have been doing lately... Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!"

    Well I am a Tory and remain a staunch Unionist.

    Ripping the country in two with border posts and tariffs on exports to and from Scotland, inevitable after a No Deal Brexit or even a basic FTA with the EU would not do us any good, Scotland would effectively be an EU colony in the British Isles.

    It would also be the end of the United Kingdom, we would become simply England and Wales overnight and as for Northern Ireland I would happily give away the Catholic and Sinn Fein, Remain voting counties on the Irish border like Fermanagh and Tyrone to the Republic of Ireland but in Protestant County Antrim every MP is DUP and every local authority voted Leave and it wants to remain with us.

    England, Wales and Antrim would be fine with me, but the UK staying together best of all and that requires unity between the Kingdoms of England and Scotland
    There's only one thing for it, HYUFD: join the Labour Party and campaign to stay in the single market.
    No need, I support Boris' commitment to respect the 'once in a generation' 2014 vote and ban indyref2 while he remains PM.

    If Starmer wishes to rejoin the single market then call indyref2 if he becomes PM that is up to him
    What do you think about the idea of a referendum on a concrete deal that is being floated?
    I have no problem with a referendum on a trade deal that ends free movement, regains control of our fishing waters and allows our own trade deals but we have to get one with the EU agreed first
    I mean a Scottish independence deal.

    https://twitter.com/JGForsyth/status/1301503843704897540
    Fine, 'Do you wish Scotland to leave the UK to rejoin the EU with customs posts at the English border and tariffs on Scottish exports to England then imposed as a result?'
  • Options

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    If you want a wonderfully nightmarish scenario, how's this:

    It's 269-269 on the night.

    So, Trump is President, but the Senate chooses the VP.

    The Dems make three pickups net, but the Georgia Special is a Jungle Primary type affair, which won't be resolved until January.

    Does Kelly Loeffler (the current appointed Senator) get to vote, or do they wait until the results for her State's special election are known?

    Such a clusterfuck would serve both parties right - for giving the voters this godawful choice.

    America desperately needs a viable third party to break the current 50.5 - 49.5 democratic stalemate.
    Had it been Trump v Sanders, Trump would likely be polling ahead now.

    A third party US version of the LDs really would not make any difference
    Biden would be the perfect candidate if he was 10 or 15 years younger.
    If he was 10 or 15 years younger his libido would have been causing problems.
    Ten years ago Biden was Vice President. Was his libido a problem?

    Tbh I'm not really sure voters care anyway. Americans elected Trump; we elected Boris; in both cases knowing about their libidos. I'm not even sure we care about drugs.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,714
    "Don’t import America’s race wars into the UK
    The controversy over Adele’s Bantu hairstyle confirmed that woke Americans don’t understand the UK.

    Inaya Folarin Iman"

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/09/03/dont-import-americas-race-wars-into-the-uk/
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,013
    Personally, I would pay very little attention to the state by state polling. The question is does Biden have a lead, and if so, how much?.

    If he does, and it's three points or more, then I would be very surprised if he lost. Simply, Trump's vote efficiency was amazing last time, and you just need to add a tiny bit of randomness to the results (plus maybe 0.5% to Hillary's vote), and he's in the White House. Indeed, it's far from impossible that Biden gets a smaller lead than Hillary and still wins.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,714
    IMO 269-269 is looking like a value bet atm.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,013
    edited September 2020
    Looking at RCP polling averages for Trump v Clinton, and the final average was a 3.2% lead for Clinton, against 2.1% achieved.

    This means IBD/TIPP (Clinton +1) and USC (Trump +3) both overestimated Trump and under-estimated Clinton.

    Also pretty accurate were Bloomberg (Clinton +3) and the Washington Post (ditto).

  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    Personally, I would pay very little attention to the state by state polling. The question is does Biden have a lead, and if so, how much?.

    If he does, and it's three points or more, then I would be very surprised if he lost. Simply, Trump's vote efficiency was amazing last time, and you just need to add a tiny bit of randomness to the results (plus maybe 0.5% to Hillary's vote), and he's in the White House. Indeed, it's far from impossible that Biden gets a smaller lead than Hillary and still wins.

    Although I'm always too lazy to actually do it, I always thought it would be interesting to compare the predictions you'd make based on state polling (say a month out and the day before) to what you'd get based on UNS.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,714
    edited September 2020
    Murray 2-4 Auger Aliassime, first set.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/tennis/50974511
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,299

    I'm in a somewhat conflicted position.

    If the SNP win next year, I think they are entitled to their referendum. I won't take a position on that but I hope they stay. But I can totally see why they would vote to go.

    But that makes the chance of Labour getting back into office quite challenging - and living in England it's then more Tory rule.

    We really need to not be relying on the SNP, it seems very risky.

    I can’t see English and Welsh voters thanking the Tories for breaking up the country?
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,299
    In other news: HS2 has announced the formal start of construction of the high-speed rail line between London and the West Midlands, which it claims will create 22,000 jobs.

    The prime minister, Boris Johnson, was expected to attend a ceremonial launch of the first shovels in the ground on Friday for the main civil engineering contracts
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