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  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,683
    HYUFD said:

    Cornwall was absorbed into Wessex after the Battle of Hingston Down in 838 and then was part of England from 886 when the House of Wessex produce the first King of the whole of England, Alfred the Great
    Your point is? The scots and welsh both got conquered by english kings too. You want to tell them they cant be a nation on those bounds?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,005
    Pagan2 said:

    Your point is? The scots and welsh both got conquered by english kings too. You want to tell them they cant be a nation on those bounds?
    Would you be happy/tolerate being part of an independent English state?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,516
    Pagan2 said:

    I am british and from the UK. I am not english not more than the scots are or the welsh are. We aren't mainly separatists but we have our own identity. Most of us think of ourselves of cornish then british then ukish we dont think of ourselves as english because we aren't simple as that
    You have every right to prioritise your identities - it's just that geographically, Cornwall is part of England. But it's interesting to hear your thoughts on it.

    Anyway, school night - night all.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,683

    Emojis are there name, that's why. Emoticons are text only, emojis are the image.

    :-) is an emoticon.
    😀 is an emoji.

    When I first started using them we called them smileys not emojis.
    When I first started using them it was because we had 360bps modems and it made emails shorter which was why they were there. Kids today don't have that issue
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,978
    "Full stops have become the latest casualty of youthful sensitivity as experts say they can be “intimidating”.

    As teenagers and those in their early twenties, Generation Z, have grown up with phones in their hands, using short messages to communicate with one another, and the punctuation mark has fallen out of fashion and become a symbol of curt passive-aggression.

    Linguists have been debating the use of the full stop and why some young people interpret a correctly punctuated text as a sign of annoyance."
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/08/23/generation-z-find-full-stops-intimidating-experts-say/
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,626

    Lib Dem revival in the SW on the cards? Or are they doomed

    SW postcodes perhaps. SW England, probably not.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    Labour is very fortunate Pidcock lost her seat because she would likely have won the leadership otherwise and that would have lead to Milne and others staying on

    I agree completely with that. Starmer would have found it much harder against her. RLB was obviously a non-starters.

    Thank you the voters of NW Durham
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,667
    You sure? Seems a good poll overall for Biden (+10 and lots of subsidiary gains) - seems unlikely he's -10 with indies?
  • So speaks someone who has spent her every waking hour since 3rd April 2020 seeking to undermine the widely respected and genuinely popular leader of the party to which she notionally belongs.

    The upside of all this is that I think there's a backlash coming from Labour members who would like to regard themselves on the left of the party but who are heartily sick and tired of the infantile factionalism of the likes of Pidcock and yearn for a degree of unity.

    Labour Party supporters should thank their lucky stars that she lost her seat.

    Wasn't Pidcock, not Wrong Daily, supposed to be the Corbynite standard bearer after Corbyn retired? Oops.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,179

    Labour is very fortunate Pidcock lost her seat because she would likely have won the leadership otherwise and that would have lead to Milne and others staying on

    Possible she might have won. She would certainly have stood.

    It would have been the end of the Labour party mind if she had won.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,683

    I agree completely with that. Starmer would have found it much harder against her. RLB was obviously a non-starters.

    Thank you the voters of NW Durham
    Laura pidcock was a disaster waiting to happen
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Yes, he had no choice at that stage. As useless as he was he really had no choice but to go with it. Corbyn was a poor leader for labour but Swinson has to be the most inept leader of a major party in modern times. Terrible judgement.
    Generous description of the Lib Dems.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,683

    SW postcodes perhaps. SW England, probably not.
    Dont see lib dems recovering their seats in the southwest
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,353
    geoffw said:

    "Full stops have become the latest casualty of youthful sensitivity as experts say they can be “intimidating”.

    As teenagers and those in their early twenties, Generation Z, have grown up with phones in their hands, using short messages to communicate with one another, and the punctuation mark has fallen out of fashion and become a symbol of curt passive-aggression.

    Linguists have been debating the use of the full stop and why some young people interpret a correctly punctuated text as a sign of annoyance."
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/08/23/generation-z-find-full-stops-intimidating-experts-say/

    I'm very forgiving of a loose approach to rules of grammar and syntax, within reason, but that headline is just barmy.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,179
    Pagan2 said:

    Laura pidcock was a disaster waiting to happen
    Will she be back though? Lavery off to the Lords in snap by-election?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,683

    Will she be back though? Lavery off to the Lords in snap by-election?
    It wouldnt surprise me, frankly I hope starmer will avoid that
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,179

    You sure? Seems a good poll overall for Biden (+10 and lots of subsidiary gains) - seems unlikely he's -10 with indies?
    Seems extremely unlikely.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited August 2020
    Pagan2 said:

    When I first started using them it was because we had 360bps modems and it made emails shorter which was why they were there. Kids today don't have that issue
    I've generally used them because when you're online you can't see the face of the other people you're talking to which means that things like sarcasm or wit can be taken the wrong way by people who think you're talking literally. Putting an 😉 next to something that is a joke makes it clear you're not being serious.

    I use emojis a lot less here than I would on any other site. Probably because this site is dominated by people much older than I am who don't use it so I don't often in comparison either. They are a fantastic means of short communication at expressing emotions without long text.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,600
    edited August 2020
    Pagan2 said:

    Your point is? The scots and welsh both got conquered by english kings too. You want to tell them they cant be a nation on those bounds?
    Cornwall was part of England from its creation in the 9th century. Wessex may have conquered Cornwall but Wessex was not England, just the dominant future component of it.

    Wales was conquered by England in the 13th century by Edward 1st who made his son Prince of Wales centuries after England was created and officially united with England by the Laws of Wales Acts under Henry VIII in the 16th century.

    Scotland was not united with England until 1707 and did not share a monarch with England until James 1st
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,683

    I've generally used them because when you're online you can't see the face of the other people you're talking to which means that things like sarcasm or wit can be taken the wrong way by people who think you're talking literally. Putting an 😉 next to something that is a joke makes it clear you're not being serious.

    I use emojis a lot less here than I would on any other site. Probably because this site is dominated by people much older than I am who don't use it so I don't often in comparison either. They are a fantastic means of short communication at expressing emotions without long text.
    I dont deny they are a good means of communication and even here I have found posts I made taken the wrong way but then I am used to that with text communication. It is why I most online stuff I do voice communication as it gives more emotive info.
  • HYUFD said:

    Cornwall was part of England from its creation in the 9th century. Wessex may have conquered Cornwall but Wessex was not England, just the largest future component of it.

    Wales was conquered by England in the 13th century by Edward 1st who made his son Prince of Wales centuries after England was created and officially united with England by the Laws of Wales Acts under Henry VIII in the 16th century.

    Scotland was not united with England until 1707 and did not share a monarch with England until James 1st
    None of which matters since nobody alive today was born in the 10th to 18th centuries.

    All that matters is what people alive today think.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,683
    HYUFD said:

    Cornwall was part of England from its creation in the 9th century. Wessex may have conquered Cornwall but Wessex was not England, just the largest future component of it.

    Wales was conquered by England in the 13th century by Edward 1st who made his son Prince of Wales centuries after England was created and officially united with England by the Laws of Wales Acts under Henry VIII in the 16th century.

    Scotland was not united with England until 1707 and did not share a monarch with England until James 1st
    Shrugs dont care, the cornish feel we are a separate nation what you feel doesnt matter
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,626
    kle4 said:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/08/23/generation-z-find-full-stops-intimidating-experts-say/
    I'm very forgiving of a loose approach to rules of grammar and syntax, within reason, but that headline is just barmy.

    Totally bonkers. Period.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,683

    None of which matters since nobody alive today was born in the 10th to 18th centuries.

    All that matters is what people alive today think.
    My point exactly, I still speak cornish. Its not english. I obviously speak english as well as a second language
  • HYUFD said:

    Cornwall was absorbed into Wessex after the Battle of Hingston Down in 838 and then was part of England from 886 when the House of Wessex produced the first King of the whole of England, Alfred the Great and certainly by 924 when Athelstan was proclaimed the first official King of the English
    Cornwall - England's First Victim

    Of course wasn't Alfred's grandfather a kernewek penvyghternet (or visa versa)?
  • Pagan2 said:

    Shrugs dont care, the cornish feel we are a separate nation what you feel doesnt matter
    The Scots legally are a different country, you're not. That's one technical difference.

    But if you vote that you should be, then you should be. That's not the case yet though.

    There's only three legal countries in the UK: England, Scotland and Wales*

    * No its not a principality.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,600

    Cornwall - England's First Victim

    Of course wasn't Alfred's grandfather a kernewek penvyghternet (or visa versa)?
    There was no England when Wessex defeated a Cornish and Danish army
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Lib Dem revival in the SW on the cards? Or are they doomed

    It's hard to be sure, but at this stage they look more likely to be doomed. Or, at the very least, to remain moribund for a very long time. They have, of course, endured three dreadful General Elections on the bounce and only managed to get their vote share back above 10% in the most recent one with the help of hardline Remainerism, which is now defunct.

    Looking specifically at the South-West, there are almost no Liberal Democrat targets left there in any event. Here's a list:

    Cheltenham (target number 5)
    Tory majority 981, swing required 0.83%

    St Ives (target number 13)
    Tory majority 4,280, swing required 4.16%

    Wells (target number 20)
    Tory majority 9,991, swing required 8.11%

    Taunton Deane (target number 27)
    Tory majority 11,700, swing required 9.18%

    Chippenham (target number 29)
    Tory majority 11,288, swing required 9.88%

    Of those, Cheltenham and Chippenham are both in the statistical region of the South West but it's at least arguable that they're really in the South Midlands. All the LD targets in the South West below Chippenham have even larger Conservative majorities and require swings in excess of 11.5% to capture.

    If the Liberal Democrats are going to stage any sort of a comeback at the next GE then they would be best off forgetting about Eurosceptic parts in the deep sticks, and concentrate instead mainly on seats full of Camerosborne Tory-type voters who are socially wet but fiscally dry, inhabiting the more upmarket bits of West London, the Home Counties and Cheshire. That covers the bulk of their top 20 targets.

    This, of course, probably means that they will elect Layla Moran and try to move to the left of Labour.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,600
    edited August 2020

    None of which matters since nobody alive today was born in the 10th to 18th centuries.

    All that matters is what people alive today think.
    Yes it does matter, England is defined as the Kingdoms which went into its creation ie Wessex, Mercia and Northumbria.

    If you live in any of the areas that were in the Kingdoms above then by definition you are English. What you want for the future is a different matter
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,683
    edited August 2020

    Cornwall - England's First Victim

    Of course wasn't Alfred's grandfather a kernewek penvyghternet (or visa versa)?
    There was a lot of intermingling at the time so quite possibly. Nations secured their sovereignty by marriage

    I can only trace my ancestors to 1497 where there is record of them being executed when they marched on london with michael an gof.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,667

    Seems extremely unlikely.
    I think CHB is passing on a genuine table but it's almost certainly back to front.

    Some remarkable findings for the Republican voters. They feel the virus is both exagerrated and being well-handled, and the economy is in great shape. A different planet.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,935
    edited August 2020
    In physiognomy the Cornish are one of the most distinct peoples of the UK. They tend to look extremely different from people in East Anglia or Sussex, for instance, as much so, or even more so, than people from Wales. The genetic data also points to them being almost as different as the Welsh.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,139
    Pagan2 said:


    I can only trace my ancestors to 1487 where there is record of them being executed when they marched on london with michael an gof.

    Not all of them presumably :)
  • I agree completely with that. Starmer would have found it much harder against her. RLB was obviously a non-starters.

    Thank you the voters of NW Durham
    Is this the first time we have ever agreed @MikeSmithson?
  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 21,436
    edited August 2020
    kle4 said:

    I'm very forgiving of a loose approach to rules of grammar and syntax, within reason, but that headline is just barmy.

    Which young people are they talking to? I have not spoken to a single young person in my life who finds them intimidating, what a load of utter nonsense
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,683

    Not all of them presumably :)
    I am assuming they didnt take all their children with them, you dont normally when rebelling :)
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    HYUFD said:

    Yes it does matter, England is defined as the Kingdoms which went into its creation ie Wessex, Mercia and Northumbria.

    If you live in any of the areas that were in the Kingdoms above then by definition you are English. What you want for the future is a different matter
    I'm not sure that arguing about the deep history of England really gets us anywhere at all.

    Though FWIW Alfred the Great was not the first King of England. That was Athelstan.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,683

    I'm not sure that arguing about the deep history of England really gets us anywhere at all.

    Though FWIW Alfred the Great was not the first King of England. That was Athelstan.
    No but the claims of a conqueror dont amount to a whole of a hill of beans these day. Yes the english conquered us. We dont wish separation just recognition
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,552
    geoffw said:

    "Full stops have become the latest casualty of youthful sensitivity as experts say they can be “intimidating”.

    As teenagers and those in their early twenties, Generation Z, have grown up with phones in their hands, using short messages to communicate with one another, and the punctuation mark has fallen out of fashion and become a symbol of curt passive-aggression.

    Linguists have been debating the use of the full stop and why some young people interpret a correctly punctuated text as a sign of annoyance."
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/08/23/generation-z-find-full-stops-intimidating-experts-say/

    Yes, son concurs that a full stop, specifically in a text or chat message, is "there for a reason" and is equivalent to ending a verbal sentence with the word "period". But Mum, "doesn't count" as she writes texts like formal letters, anyway.
  • I'm not sure that arguing about the deep history of England really gets us anywhere at all.

    Though FWIW Alfred the Great was not the first King of England. That was Athelstan.
    Oy. What happened to the Heptarchy?
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    edited August 2020

    I can't see how this would win a single vote in England. Not even with hand-wringers, never mind working class voters in the north.
    Yet a party whose flagship policy is a regional assembly for Yorkshire has been doing quite well in seats where it stands. An average of over 1,000 votes in the 28 Yorkshire constituencies where it stood in the 2019 GE, to supplement 6 out of their 38 candidates being elected in the 2019 local elections. That suggests to me that in parts of England at least, including in working class seats up north, a desire for meaningful regional devolution is enough to persuade significant numbers to switch parties. I hope Starmer has taken note.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,009
    Stocky said:

    I`m enjoying the kerfuffle between you guys and reflecting that it was Malcy who threw the original obnoxious hand grenade. He must be having a good old chuckle.

    HYUFD - you shouldn`t have take the bait.
    Stocky , he is such a divvy. His sanctimonious right wing Pinochet opinions stink and he needs called out as often as possible.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,353

    None of which matters since nobody alive today was born in the 10th to 18th centuries.

    All that matters is what people alive today think.
    That is certainly true, although such a feeling seemingly being more of a modern rediscovery than historically persistent is worthy of note at least.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,353

    Which young people are they talking to? I have not spoken to a single young person in my life who finds them intimidating, what a load of utter nonsense
    I think it's just part of today's general trend of utterly infantilising young people but treating them like fragile idiots, even as the 'think of the children and young people' tendency remains higher than it has ever been.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,600
    edited August 2020
    Pagan2 said:

    No but the claims of a conqueror dont amount to a whole of a hill of beans these day. Yes the english conquered us. We dont wish separation just recognition
    The English did not conquer you, the Kingdom of Wessex did. England was only created after you were conquered and not just from Wessex, there was no England to conquer you before
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,009

    It's wonderful stuff.
    Totally agree and enhanced when taken with a pie.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,098
    geoffw said:

    "Full stops have become the latest casualty of youthful sensitivity as experts say they can be “intimidating”.

    As teenagers and those in their early twenties, Generation Z, have grown up with phones in their hands, using short messages to communicate with one another, and the punctuation mark has fallen out of fashion and become a symbol of curt passive-aggression.

    Linguists have been debating the use of the full stop and why some young people interpret a correctly punctuated text as a sign of annoyance."
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/08/23/generation-z-find-full-stops-intimidating-experts-say/
    geoffw said:

    "Full stops have become the latest casualty of youthful sensitivity as experts say they can be “intimidating”.

    As teenagers and those in their early twenties, Generation Z, have grown up with phones in their hands, using short messages to communicate with one another, and the punctuation mark has fallen out of fashion and become a symbol of curt passive-aggression.

    Linguists have been debating the use of the full stop and why some young people interpret a correctly punctuated text as a sign of annoyance."
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/08/23/generation-z-find-full-stops-intimidating-experts-say/

    This is such a bullshit story.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,626

    Yet a party whose flagship policy is a regional assembly for Yorkshire has been doing quite well in seats where it stands. An average of over 1,000 votes in the 28 Yorkshire constituencies where it stood in the 2019 GE, to supplement 6 out of their 38 candidates being elected in the 2019 local elections. That suggests to me that in parts of England at least, including in working class seats up north, a desire for meaningful regional devolution is enough to persuade significant numbers to switch parties. I hope Starmer has taken note.
    I fancy that a lot of their votes were 'none of the above' rather than a positive support for their policies.

    And besides, Yorkshire is as separate from England as Cornwall is. The most parochial part of the country I've ever experienced.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,009

    It does in the sense that we can all have multiple identities and rub along fairly well. I hate to break this to you, but you're not only English, you're also British, United Kingdomish, and European. Not sure why a wonderful identity like being Cornish has to come at the expense of being English. Or (tangentially) why so many think identifying as Scottish means you have to reject Britishness.

    It sometimes amuses me that if Scotland were to separate, everyone in Scotland would be every bit as British as they were before. Wonder if we gently told them that, they'd stop bothering with the whole cutting the country in half thing.
    NO
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,098
    Pagan2 said:

    When I first started using them it was because we had 360bps modems and it made emails shorter which was why they were there. Kids today don't have that issue
    Ah hem.

    It was 300bps modems. You normally had the choice of 300/300 or an aysmetrical rate (which I forget) where downstream was about 1,200 bps and upstream was about 75 bps.

    Ahhh... I still remember all the Hayes dial commands, and used to use them when connecting laptops to phones to get Internet connections...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,030
    More US election stealing scenarios...

    And Trump already has his acolytes saying that it won’t be a fair election if he doesn’t win,

    https://www.newyorker.com/news/campaign-chronicles/what-happens-if-donald-trump-fights-the-election-results
    ... These war games were hypothetical imaginings of extraordinary circumstances. But an election in a pandemic year with a President declaring in advance that the vote will be rigged are extraordinary circumstances. “One big takeaway is that leaders really need to know what exactly their powers are, and what the powers of others are, and think through some of these options in advance,” Rosa Brooks, a law professor at Georgetown University who helped convene the Transition Integrity Project, told me recently. “Because if things go bad, they’ll go bad very quickly, and people will have to make decisions in an hour, not in a week.”...

    ... As he has in other areas of American self-government, Trump has revealed how much of our democracy rests on norms rather than enforceable laws. Ultimately, the one norm that has been crucial to the resolution of past disputes is the one that Trump is perhaps least likely to observe: conceding defeat. In 1876, Tilden, from the start of the crisis, was privately prepared to concede and ultimately did so. And while the Supreme Court is popularly remembered as the decisive actor that handed the 2000 election to George W. Bush, it was Al Gore’s decision to concede, and to not pursue additional legal options, that really ended matters. In November, if Trump loses and refuses to concede, he may live up to one of his favorite boasts. No one will have ever seen anything like it. When I asked the Trump campaign what preparations it was making for the possibility of counts coming in slowly, or being too close to call, on and after Election Day, Tim Murtaugh, Trump’s campaign communications director, told me in an e-mailed statement, “We don’t know what kind of shenanigans Democrats will try leading up to November. If someone had asked George W. Bush and Al Gore this same question in 2000, would they have been able to foresee the drawn out fight over Florida? The central point remains clear: in a free and fair election, President Trump will win.”
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,600
    edited August 2020

    I fancy that a lot of their votes were 'none of the above' rather than a positive support for their policies.

    And besides, Yorkshire is as separate from England as Cornwall is. The most parochial part of the country I've ever experienced.
    Yorkshire is also part of England being part of the Kingdom of Northumbria which was one of the Kingdoms from which England was formed.

    I would also point out Yorkshire was never a completely separate Kingdom unlike my county of birth, Kent and my county of residence, Essex
  • kle4 said:

    I think it's just part of today's general trend of utterly infantilising young people but treating them like fragile idiots, even as the 'think of the children and young people' tendency remains higher than it has ever been.
    Yes but it's more dishonest reporting by the Telegraph which makes young people look like we're pathetic and victims. They make us look bad with this nonsense, all as part of their "they get offended at everything" angle.

    I am fed up with it
  • No actual young person is calling fullstops offensive, yet the Telegraph is happy for their readers to think so, it's not a good look
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,626

    Yes but it's more dishonest reporting by the Telegraph which makes young people look like we're pathetic and victims. They make us look bad with this nonsense, all as part of their "they get offended at everything" angle.

    I am fed up with it
    Clearly not that fed up, as you didn't end that sentence with a full stop.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Yet a party whose flagship policy is a regional assembly for Yorkshire has been doing quite well in seats where it stands. An average of over 1,000 votes in the 28 Yorkshire constituencies where it stood in the 2019 GE, to supplement 6 out of their 38 candidates being elected in the 2019 local elections. That suggests to me that in parts of England at least, including in working class seats up north, a desire for meaningful regional devolution is enough to persuade significant numbers to switch parties. I hope Starmer has taken note.
    Regionalism - as distinct from stronger local government - is an enormous problem in England, for several reasons:

    1. The only obvious regions of sufficient size that offer themselves for creation are Greater London and Yorkshire (and even in the latter case it has had bits chopped off it by successive local government reforms, so would presumably need to be reconstituted properly.) The rest of them are all artificial. For example, where do we put Hertfordshire? In the South East, the East of England, the South Midlands, the South-East Midlands, the East Midlands, West Anglia or the Northern Home Counties? It's a mess.
    2. The previous experience with the failed North-East Assembly suggests that there is little appetite for paper-shuffling, talking-shop provincial assemblies that do little apart from providing yet another layer of government with lots of well-paid sinecures for pensioned-off and third-rate politicians.
    3. Alternatively, it has been suggested that powerful devolved provinces could be created, with legislative and administrative powers comparable to those of Scotland and Wales. This, however, leaves problem 1 and aspects of problem 2 unresolved, and also makes the heroic assumption both that the English want their country Balkanised into a collection of cantons, and that it is desirable to end up with a patchwork quilt of little regions all with separate sets of public services and different laws.
  • Clearly not that fed up, as you didn't end that sentence with a full stop.
    You have got me there.

    .
    ..

    .
    .
    .
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,626

    Regionalism - as distinct from stronger local government - is an enormous problem in England, for several reasons:

    1. The only obvious regions of sufficient size that offer themselves for creation are Greater London and Yorkshire (and even in the latter case it has had bits chopped off it by successive local government reforms, so would presumably need to be reconstituted properly.) The rest of them are all artificial. For example, where do we put Hertfordshire? In the South East, the East of England, the South Midlands, the South-East Midlands, the East Midlands, West Anglia or the Northern Home Counties? It's a mess.
    2. The previous experience with the failed North-East Assembly suggests that there is little appetite for paper-shuffling, talking-shop provincial assemblies that do little apart from providing yet another layer of government with lots of well-paid sinecures for pensioned-off and third-rate politicians.
    3. Alternatively, it has been suggested that powerful devolved provinces could be created, with legislative and administrative powers comparable to those of Scotland and Wales. This, however, leaves problem 1 and aspects of problem 2 unresolved, and also makes the heroic assumption both that the English want their country Balkanised into a collection of cantons, and that it is desirable to end up with a patchwork quilt of little regions all with separate sets of public services and different laws.
    This government has decided that 'city regions' are the way it wants to go.

    So even when the majority of people in Yorkshire want an all-Yorkshire mayor we aren't allowed to have one.

  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,683

    This government has decided that 'city regions' are the way it wants to go.

    So even when the majority of people in Yorkshire want an all-Yorkshire mayor we aren't allowed to have one.

    You have mistaken politicians for people who give people what they want instead of what they want
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,005

    This government has decided that 'city regions' are the way it wants to go.

    So even when the majority of people in Yorkshire want an all-Yorkshire mayor we aren't allowed to have one.

    City Regions are also a mess - see “North of Tyne”.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,626
    I feel the need to point out that Tees Valley is a city region without a city. And it has annexed part of Yorkshire.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,683

    Regionalism - as distinct from stronger local government - is an enormous problem in England, for several reasons:

    1. The only obvious regions of sufficient size that offer themselves for creation are Greater London and Yorkshire (and even in the latter case it has had bits chopped off it by successive local government reforms, so would presumably need to be reconstituted properly.) The rest of them are all artificial. For example, where do we put Hertfordshire? In the South East, the East of England, the South Midlands, the South-East Midlands, the East Midlands, West Anglia or the Northern Home Counties? It's a mess.
    2. The previous experience with the failed North-East Assembly suggests that there is little appetite for paper-shuffling, talking-shop provincial assemblies that do little apart from providing yet another layer of government with lots of well-paid sinecures for pensioned-off and third-rate politicians.
    3. Alternatively, it has been suggested that powerful devolved provinces could be created, with legislative and administrative powers comparable to those of Scotland and Wales. This, however, leaves problem 1 and aspects of problem 2 unresolved, and also makes the heroic assumption both that the English want their country Balkanised into a collection of cantons, and that it is desirable to end up with a patchwork quilt of little regions all with separate sets of public services and different laws.
    Westminster will never give regions power like scotland has. They will as you said merely talking shops for people like hyufd
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,005
    @Black_Rook the problem is that some local councils need to be abolished first.

    Take the mess that was “Tyne and Wear” that for all intents and purposes no longer exists. This has been repeated with the now named “North of Tyne” city region, where Gateshead and South Tyneside councils refused to join to protect their own fiefdoms.

    One “city” essentially has 6 local authorities - Northumberland CC, Newcastle upon Tyne, North Tyneside, South Tyneside, and “North of Tyne”.

    Its simple - overrule the local authorities, hive Sunderland back into County Durham, keep Northumberland CC, and redraw the boundaries so the whole of Tyndeside accurately reflects its status as “Greater Newcastle”.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,626

    @Black_Rook the problem is that some local councils need to be abolished first.

    Take the mess that was “Tyne and Wear” that for all intents and purposes no longer exists. This has been repeated with the now named “North of Tyne” city region, where Gateshead and South Tyneside councils refused to join to protect their own fiefdoms.

    One “city” essentially has 6 local authorities - Northumberland CC, Newcastle upon Tyne, North Tyneside, South Tyneside, and “North of Tyne”.

    Its simple - overrule the local authorities, hive Sunderland back into County Durham, keep Northumberland CC, and redraw the boundaries so the whole of Tyndeside accurately reflects its status as “Greater Newcastle”.

    Hold on a minute. Gateshead is part of County Durham. Not part of some 'Greater Newcastle'.

  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    rcs1000 said:

    Ah hem.

    It was 300bps modems. You normally had the choice of 300/300 or an aysmetrical rate (which I forget) where downstream was about 1,200 bps and upstream was about 75 bps.

    Ahhh... I still remember all the Hayes dial commands, and used to use them when connecting laptops to phones to get Internet connections...
    Even Jimi Hendrix had a purple hayes....
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited August 2020
    rcs1000 said:
    It is and it isn't. To some people a full stop is equivalent to an exclamation mark.

    Then again to some people not ending a message with an x kiss is passive aggressive too.
  • It is and it isn't. To some people a full stop is equivalent to an exclamation mark.

    Then again to some people not ending a message with an x kiss is passive aggressive too.
    The point it is making is nonsense.

    The implication is that young "snowflakes" are worried about fullstops and find them offensive. We don't, we don't give a toss.

    This is just the latest in a long line of nonsense culture war stories from the Telegraph
  • No actual young person is calling fullstops offensive, yet the Telegraph is happy for their readers to think so, it's not a good look

    Offensive no definitely not but I have spoken to people who find texts ending in a full stop to be passive aggressive.
  • Offensive no definitely not but I have spoken to people who find texts ending in a full stop to be passive aggressive.
    Is it worth making a story about? Again as I say the implication being that this is just yet another of young people being snowflakes? No, of course not
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,005

    Hold on a minute. Gateshead is part of County Durham. Not part of some 'Greater Newcastle'.

    Its Greater Newcastle whether you like it or not unfortunately.
  • The point it is making is nonsense.

    The implication is that young "snowflakes" are worried about fullstops and find them offensive. We don't, we don't give a toss.

    This is just the latest in a long line of nonsense culture war stories from the Telegraph
    Of course we don't.

    But language is evolving, I did have a conversation once with a young colleague who thought I was being curt with him as I'd ended my text in a full stop. I'm not making it up it really happened. There was other stuff going on as to why he thought it too but that's literally what he said, I then said he should look back through my messages and I always do. That's unusual, at the time in the environment I was working in I'd be as likely to get a text ending in an x than a full stop.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,005

    Offensive no definitely not but I have spoken to people who find texts ending in a full stop to be passive aggressive.
    That’s because they are! It all comes down to the communication medium. There’s no need to put full stops on the end of digital messages because by virtue of the message being sent its clear a sentence is finished.
  • Of course we don't.

    But language is evolving, I did have a conversation once with a young colleague who thought I was being curt with him as I'd ended my text in a full stop. I'm not making it up it really happened. There was other stuff going on as to why he thought it too but that's literally what he said, I then said he should look back through my messages and I always do. That's unusual, at the time in the environment I was working in I'd be as likely to get a text ending in an x than a full stop.
    Language is evolving isn't what my issue is with, it's with the Telegraph making out this is yet another snowflake, culture war issue
  • That’s because they are! It all comes down to the communication medium. There’s no need to put full stops on the end of digital messages because by virtue of the message being sent its clear a sentence is finished.
    I suspect at one time full stops were not added to save on memory, or due to limitations in the amount of text you could fit in a single message
  • Language is evolving isn't what my issue is with, it's with the Telegraph making out this is yet another snowflake, culture war issue
    get the same in my job, pal, a full stop tells them that the discussion is over.

    .
  • just get the feeling some on here don't get out much.

    .
  • Is it worth making a story about? Again as I say the implication being that this is just yet another of young people being snowflakes? No, of course not
    Clickbait.

    As far as linguists and academics are concerned the evolution of language is fascinating. Language, spelling and grammar have changed in the past and now they are rapidly changing with the addition of emoji and an array of acronyms etc as a modern part of our language. Heck in 2015 😂 was "word of the year".

    But for the Telegraph I suspect it is clickbait.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,626

    Its Greater Newcastle whether you like it or not unfortunately.
    I'll be manning the barricades on the Redheugh Bridge. The Heed will not be subjugated!

    Night all.
  • What niche can the Lib Dems calve out? They've lost the centre-left one surely with Starmer.

    Is it being centre right? Is that appealing to their voters bearing in mind by implication they're putting Starmer into No 10?
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    @Black_Rook the problem is that some local councils need to be abolished first.

    Take the mess that was “Tyne and Wear” that for all intents and purposes no longer exists. This has been repeated with the now named “North of Tyne” city region, where Gateshead and South Tyneside councils refused to join to protect their own fiefdoms.

    One “city” essentially has 6 local authorities - Northumberland CC, Newcastle upon Tyne, North Tyneside, South Tyneside, and “North of Tyne”.

    Its simple - overrule the local authorities, hive Sunderland back into County Durham, keep Northumberland CC, and redraw the boundaries so the whole of Tyndeside accurately reflects its status as “Greater Newcastle”.

    There are a lot of legacy issues that have built up over the last half-century, to be sure.

    I would've thought myself that the best solution would be mass unitarisation, plus a lightweight mayor and assembly model for Greater London, Greater Birmingham and Greater Manchester. It'd be a chance simply to erase the last vestiges of the 1974 reforms, fit the revised boundaries either to the historic county map or to those suggested by the current limits of major urban areas, and to equalise the powers and responsibilities of councils and thus make them clearer and simpler for voters to understand which level of Government does what.

    All sorts of services - police, fire, NHS trusts and CCGs, and so on - could then be matched to the boundaries of local authorities or groups of local authorities, and placed under the oversight of locally rather than nationally elected politicians to the extent deemed appropriate. Smaller cities and any towns that wanted them could also elect mayors as civic figureheads, but with limited powers.

    The current muddy hodgepodge of districts, counties, unitaries and city regions with wildly differing sizes and suites of powers does nobody any favours.
  • I suspect at one time full stops were not added to save on memory, or due to limitations in the amount of text you could fit in a single message
    Or because people didn't want to press the 0 button repeatedly for a character that didn't express any needed meaning. Same reason pre predictive text and QWERTY keyboards on phones ppl wld tlk like this n drp vwls n lttrs that cld b dn without. B 1337.
  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 21,436
    edited August 2020

    Or because people didn't want to press the 0 button repeatedly for a character that didn't express any needed meaning. Same reason pre predictive text and QWERTY keyboards on phones ppl wld tlk like this n drp vwls n lttrs that cld b dn without. B 1337.
    I don't miss the old keypads at all
  • I don't miss the old keypads at all
    I doubt anyone does.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,667

    It is and it isn't. To some people a full stop is equivalent to an exclamation mark.

    Then again to some people not ending a message with an x kiss is passive aggressive too.
    The lack of visual information makes people more sensitive to details. If you often correspond with someone you get used to their style, but you may then look for consistency and wonder about the meaning of its absence. I remember one friend always signing messages with x and one day not doing so - I did worry a bit that I'd offended her.

    I wonder if that sort of thing is more of an issue with lockdown, because potentially you don't see them at all to iron out any misunderstandings?
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    What niche can the Lib Dems calve out? They've lost the centre-left one surely with Starmer.

    Is it being centre right? Is that appealing to their voters bearing in mind by implication they're putting Starmer into No 10?

    The problem with the Lib Dems isn't the voters, it's the members.

    The section of the electorate where they are likely to get furthest in making converts - if they decide to go after them - are well-to-do, moderate, wet centre-right voters who can be prized from the Tories. Johnson's populism has created a potential opening in the market there.

    The members, however, are centre-left and will therefore want to go fishing in the same pond as Starmer's Labour.

    If they won't work to attract the soft Tories then their only hope of getting anywhere lies in persuading enough Labour voters in places where that party is currently in third place to switch to them in a bid to chuck the Tories out (and hope that those voters have by now forgiven them for the Coalition.) Except, if the Lib Dems are effectively going to be a smaller, weaker copy of Labour, then why shouldn't their voters go in the other direction and unite behind Labour's candidates instead?
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    just get the feeling some on here don't get out much.

    I for one do, although one does sometimes get bogged down and lose track of the time.

    On which note, I need to get to bed or will be useless for work in the morning. Au revoir.
  • The lack of visual information makes people more sensitive to details. If you often correspond with someone you get used to their style, but you may then look for consistency and wonder about the meaning of its absence. I remember one friend always signing messages with x and one day not doing so - I did worry a bit that I'd offended her.

    I wonder if that sort of thing is more of an issue with lockdown, because potentially you don't see them at all to iron out any misunderstandings?
    Very true.

    About a decade ago my boss at the time once signed a text to me with an x. I replied quizzically bemused about it, he said it was force of habit, he replied to most people with them and didn't to me because I didn't use them. That one had slipped through out of habit.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,165

    What niche can the Lib Dems calve out? They've lost the centre-left one surely with Starmer.

    Is it being centre right? Is that appealing to their voters bearing in mind by implication they're putting Starmer into No 10?

    They could try being radical centrists like they always were before.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,600

    The problem with the Lib Dems isn't the voters, it's the members.

    The section of the electorate where they are likely to get furthest in making converts - if they decide to go after them - are well-to-do, moderate, wet centre-right voters who can be prized from the Tories. Johnson's populism has created a potential opening in the market there.

    The members, however, are centre-left and will therefore want to go fishing in the same pond as Starmer's Labour.

    If they won't work to attract the soft Tories then their only hope of getting anywhere lies in persuading enough Labour voters in places where that party is currently in third place to switch to them in a bid to chuck the Tories out (and hope that those voters have by now forgiven them for the Coalition.) Except, if the Lib Dems are effectively going to be a smaller, weaker copy of Labour, then why shouldn't their voters go in the other direction and unite behind Labour's candidates instead?
    A lot depends on the LD leadership result at the end of the month, if LD members pick Davey they are clearly making a move for soft Tories, if they pick Moran they are sticking in their centre-left comfort zone
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,005
    I don’t even send “x”s in messages to my girlfriend. Never understood why people do that. Such a waste of time!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,600

    I don’t even send “x”s in messages to my girlfriend. Never understood why people do that. Such a waste of time!

    And who said romance was dead
  • Gary_BurtonGary_Burton Posts: 737
    edited August 2020
    HYUFD said:

    A lot depends on the LD leadership result at the end of the month, if LD members pick Davey they are clearly making a move for soft Tories, if they pick Moran they are sticking in their centre-left comfort zone
    Should be interesting to see what happens. My gut feeling is that Davey will win by 55% to 45% but there's no way of knowing for sure.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,005
    HYUFD said:

    And who said romance was dead
    She’d rather receive an intimate photo than a random letter of the alphabet.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924
    I see Daniel Craig cancelled his hair colouring appointment this afternoon.

    He is going to dye another day.

    Goodnight.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924
    HYUFD said:

    And who said romance was dead
    I think it was you at 12.43
This discussion has been closed.