politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » As we head into August the impact on holidays becomes the big

Malmesbury said:

PastoralSign said:

Malmesbury said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

On topic.

I am sorry but who in their right mind thought it was a good idea to book overseas holidays this year after the virus had hit. Obviously I can understand beforehand as no one could have predicted this. But once we had been through the first wave, you have to be mad to book a holiday and not think it might all fall apart.

A friend and his wife went to Ibiza. On the basis that they are both WFH, and could work if stuck there. Or work from quarantine when they returned.

They got hit by quarantine, in the end.

In which case I doubt they're they are the types offering vox pops about how unforseeable and unjust this all is - good on them - and hope they keep happy and well.

I'm someone who has been banging on for months that our Government moved late at every stage and we suffered the consequences. That still stands. But I won't have any criticism them for prioritising public health over a total luxury - with a known risk attached.

Anyone visiting loved ones after many months I obviously have much more sympathy for.

They factored it in - he's Spanish and regards being stuck in Ibiza (if that had happened) as "so what?".

They've ended up with the quarantine - which means not a lot, since they are working from home anyway..

kinabalu said:

isam said:

Beibheirli_C said:

isam said:

Beibheirli_C said:

isam said:

30 odd years later, the Labour party kicked these workers where it hurts, then called them racist for complaining about it

...and they still do now

twitter.com/EnglishRadical/status/1288010229137973248?s=20

Are you serious? I mean really...?????

This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.

The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.

Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!

The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.

I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.

Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.

Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today.

It’s one of the things I find most baffling about modern left wing politics, they rail against the free market in a lot of ways but seem to consider poor peoples labour fair game

It's a big issue and I pretty much share your take except for the race and immigration angle. For me, the notion that the boss class use this to divide the workers has much going for it. This sort of thing -

https://isreview.org/issue/98/race-class-and-capitalism

contrarian said:

Philip_Thompson said:

contrarian said:

Johnson could not make a better job of making the coming economic cataclysm absolutely as bad as it possibly could be if he tried.

It really is a quite breathtaking example of cowardice, cravenness, vanity and incompetence.

I think you are going to be very, very wrong.

If the government hadn't done furlough etc then I'm quite confident the economic damage would have been much, much worse as countless healthy businesses would have gone to the wall.

Thanks to minimally intrusive measures like masks etc now, the economic damage will be really minimised going forwards.

All furlough as done is encourage extremely bad habits at vast expense.

We're at the point where the FT is reportingMPs are pleading with the government to 'order' firms to send workers back to their offices

I mean FFS. This is stalinist Russia stuff. They are that desperate.

And the results will be the same.

contrarian said:

Johnson could not make a better job of making the coming economic cataclysm absolutely as bad as it possibly could be if he tried.

It really is a quite breathtaking example of cowardice, cravenness, vanity and incompetence.

TheScreamingEagles said:

Another wrinkle in the fixture calendar and Covid-19 relations between the UK and Spain considering Real Madrid are due play a match in Manchester a week on Saturday.

Man City vs Real Madrid in serious doubt after positive Covid-19 test - reports

The Champions League last 16 game is in jeopardy after Spanish sources say the La Liga giants have a player self-isolating

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/breaking-real-madrid-player-covid-18675532

contrarian said:

Johnson could not make a better job of making the coming economic cataclysm absolutely as bad as it possibly could be if he tried.

It really is a quite breathtaking example of cowardice, cravenness, vanity and incompetence.

MaxPB said:

Malmesbury said:

PastoralSign said:

Malmesbury said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

On topic.

I am sorry but who in their right mind thought it was a good idea to book overseas holidays this year after the virus had hit. Obviously I can understand beforehand as no one could have predicted this. But once we had been through the first wave, you have to be mad to book a holiday and not think it might all fall apart.

A friend and his wife went to Ibiza. On the basis that they are both WFH, and could work if stuck there. Or work from quarantine when they returned.

They got hit by quarantine, in the end.

In which case I doubt they're they are the types offering vox pops about how unforseeable and unjust this all is - good on them - and hope they keep happy and well.

I'm someone who has been banging on for months that our Government moved late at every stage and we suffered the consequences. That still stands. But I won't have any criticism them for prioritising public health over a total luxury - with a known risk attached.

Anyone visiting loved ones after many months I obviously have much more sympathy for.

They factored it in - he's Spanish and regards being stuck in Ibiza (if that had happened) as "so what?".

They've ended up with the quarantine - which means not a lot, since they are working from home anyway..

Yup, that's exactly our situation as well. It literally makes no difference whether we're stuck indoors for 14 days or not and getting away to Sicily for 10 days seems like a worthwhile trade for the risk of quarantine.

TheScreamingEagles said:

Another wrinkle in the fixture calendar and Covid-19 relations between the UK and Spain considering Real Madrid are due play a match in Manchester a week on Saturday.

Man City vs Real Madrid in serious doubt after positive Covid-19 test - reports

The Champions League last 16 game is in jeopardy after Spanish sources say the La Liga giants have a player self-isolating

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/breaking-real-madrid-player-covid-18675532

ExiledInScotland said:

Question: does anyone know of an insurance company who would provide health insurance cover for a 2 week non-essential trip to Portugal EXCLUDING Covid-19 cover (so emergency + repatriation for accidents)? Eldest daughter wants to go with the boyfriend next week, and our family policy won't cover her due to the FCO advice at the moment.

And yes I know it's stupid.

Malmesbury said:

NickPalmer said:

Slackbladder said:

Something which people aren't talking about is the amount of holiday which people at work will have been building up. I've taken really no days holiday this year so far, and still have well over 20 days to take.

I'm beginning to be pressured (as with everyone at my work) to consider taking them, but I don't really want to. Obviously some people have jumped at the chance of a summer holiday in Spain and the like on the basis that they 'have' to take holiday, and don;t want to just hang around at home (especially if you're working from home already!).

It's only going to get worse, and could be a big issue for lots of firms. I can already see I'm going to be very busy this year and could easilt run though my work to December without a good time for a break.

Of course i 'do' need a break, and will take at least a week soon, but then I still over 3 other weeks to take off.... for what?

Yes, we have a mild management style but the message has been gently communicated that it would be really nice if people took some days off now (especially as with Parliament in recess there is less lobbying going on) rather than saving it all up. Lots of people are taking long weekends just to add variety to the 5/2 routine, but nobody is taking a long break. It's one of the subtle problems that will rear its head later in the year.

Where I am, we were flat out told that we needed to use x amount of holiday by date y.

Pretty sensible - otherwise everyone would have taken the entire of December off.

isam said:

Beibheirli_C said:

isam said:

Beibheirli_C said:

isam said:

30 odd years later, the Labour party kicked these workers where it hurts, then called them racist for complaining about it

...and they still do now

twitter.com/EnglishRadical/status/1288010229137973248?s=20

Are you serious? I mean really...?????

This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.

The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.

Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!

The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.

I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.

Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.

Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today....

WhisperingOracle said:

kinabalu said:

isam said:

Beibheirli_C said:

isam said:

Beibheirli_C said:

isam said:

30 odd years later, the Labour party kicked these workers where it hurts, then called them racist for complaining about it

...and they still do now

twitter.com/EnglishRadical/status/1288010229137973248?s=20

Are you serious? I mean really...?????

This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.

The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.

Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!

The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.

I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.

Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.

Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today.

It’s one of the things I find most baffling about modern left wing politics, they rail against the free market in a lot of ways but seem to consider poor peoples labour fair game

It's a big issue and I pretty much share your take except for the race and immigration angle. For me, the notion that the boss class use this to divide the workers has much going for it. This sort of thing -

https://isreview.org/issue/98/race-class-and-capitalism

It's a very interesting political question. The modern identity politics of the right is, in part, a very clear and effective way of dividing up working class people. Tabloid campaigns against EU immigrant labourers, for instance, from the offices of what are essentially billionaire-owned and plutocrat mouthpieces, defiintely bear some relation to this.

On the other hand, on some occasions, parts of the modern left are also doing the plutocrats' work for them. The insistent focus on statue issues rather than foodbanks in the Guardian, for instance, is very handy for ensuring the continuity of current working conditions, and discouraging cross-ethnic and cross-cultural working class activity.

kinabalu said:

WhisperingOracle said:

kinabalu said:

isam said:

Beibheirli_C said:

isam said:

Beibheirli_C said:

isam said:

30 odd years later, the Labour party kicked these workers where it hurts, then called them racist for complaining about it

...and they still do now

twitter.com/EnglishRadical/status/1288010229137973248?s=20

Are you serious? I mean really...?????

This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.

The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.

Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!

The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.

I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.

Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.

Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today.

It’s one of the things I find most baffling about modern left wing politics, they rail against the free market in a lot of ways but seem to consider poor peoples labour fair game

It's a big issue and I pretty much share your take except for the race and immigration angle. For me, the notion that the boss class use this to divide the workers has much going for it. This sort of thing -

https://isreview.org/issue/98/race-class-and-capitalism

It's a very interesting political question. The modern identity politics of the right is, in part, a very clear and effective way of dividing up working class people. Tabloid campaigns against EU immigrant labourers, for instance, from the offices of what are essentially billionaire-owned and plutocrat mouthpieces, defiintely bear some relation to this.

On the other hand, on some occasions, parts of the modern left are also doing the plutocrats' work for them. The insistent focus on statue issues rather than foodbanks in the Guardian, for instance, is very handy for ensuring the continuity of current working conditions, and discouraging cross-ethnic and cross-cultural working class activity.

All about priorities, I suppose.

I'd say the top level mission statement for the left should be that we work towards eradicating, within the constraints of democratic consent and personal liberty, inequalities of class, race, gender and sexuality.

These will usually go in tandem imo but sometimes there will be clashes. A measure to reduce class inequality, for example, might widen gender inequality.

So you need a hierarchy for when these clashes happen. Which is the more important? Race trumps class? The opposite? What about gender? What about LBGT?

And this is difficult. Class is probably the most important in terms of the size of the problem but the other things are about personal identity and therefore are more visceral and the inequalities thereof in a sense more egregious.

One thing is certain - if you get either the priorities wrong or the messaging wrong you end up with some quite bizarre alliances against you. Obvious example, Brexit, a project of the reactionary right delivered with the help of blue collar workers and the underclass.

DavidL said:

Malmesbury said:

NickPalmer said:

Slackbladder said:

Something which people aren't talking about is the amount of holiday which people at work will have been building up. I've taken really no days holiday this year so far, and still have well over 20 days to take.

I'm beginning to be pressured (as with everyone at my work) to consider taking them, but I don't really want to. Obviously some people have jumped at the chance of a summer holiday in Spain and the like on the basis that they 'have' to take holiday, and don;t want to just hang around at home (especially if you're working from home already!).

It's only going to get worse, and could be a big issue for lots of firms. I can already see I'm going to be very busy this year and could easilt run though my work to December without a good time for a break.

Of course i 'do' need a break, and will take at least a week soon, but then I still over 3 other weeks to take off.... for what?

Yes, we have a mild management style but the message has been gently communicated that it would be really nice if people took some days off now (especially as with Parliament in recess there is less lobbying going on) rather than saving it all up. Lots of people are taking long weekends just to add variety to the 5/2 routine, but nobody is taking a long break. It's one of the subtle problems that will rear its head later in the year.

Where I am, we were flat out told that we needed to use x amount of holiday by date y.

Pretty sensible - otherwise everyone would have taken the entire of December off.

We've agreed with our staff that they will not accumulate holidays whilst on furlough. It was a quid pro quo for keeping wages at 100%.

Nigelb said:

ExiledInScotland said:

Question: does anyone know of an insurance company who would provide health insurance cover for a 2 week non-essential trip to Portugal EXCLUDING Covid-19 cover (so emergency + repatriation for accidents)? Eldest daughter wants to go with the boyfriend next week, and our family policy won't cover her due to the FCO advice at the moment.

And yes I know it's stupid.

I believe such a policy is available from the Post Office.
https://www.postoffice.co.uk/travel-insurance/single-trip

WhisperingOracle said:

Nigelb said:

isam said:

Beibheirli_C said:

isam said:

Beibheirli_C said:

isam said:

30 odd years later, the Labour party kicked these workers where it hurts, then called them racist for complaining about it

...and they still do now

twitter.com/EnglishRadical/status/1288010229137973248?s=20

Are you serious? I mean really...?????

This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.

The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.

Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!

The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.

I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.

Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.

Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today....

The 70s was something of a disaster for unions and business alike, and such confrontations benefitted neither.

The dock strikes were pretty futile in the end (though they did get government to subsidise the jobs of workers holding otherwise redundant positions for a decade or two).
Containerisation in the late 60s/early 70s dramatically and unavoidably reduced the need for dock labour:
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/businessreview/2017/11/10/dockworkers-and-the-introduction-of-containers-in-uk-shipping-in-the-late-1960s/

Union unrest had two sides - often awful, non-consultative and non-consensual management, and often tribal, non-discriminating and wilfully obstructive workers. The common denominator was class, and a key reason why countries like Germany were able to forge much better industrial relations.

Union power became too great, but arguably since then, against the long-term interests of the overall economy, as Piketty argues, and in Anglo-Saxon countries particularly, it's become too weak.

The fact that New Labour was not even prepared to consider German-style structures like workers on boards, and that, even more tellingly, Theresa May's government pretended to, before them throwing out, does suggest, as isam says, that we've gone much too far the other way.

Nigelb said:

isam said:

Beibheirli_C said:

isam said:

Beibheirli_C said:

isam said:

30 odd years later, the Labour party kicked these workers where it hurts, then called them racist for complaining about it

...and they still do now

twitter.com/EnglishRadical/status/1288010229137973248?s=20

Are you serious? I mean really...?????

This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.

The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.

Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!

The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.

I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.

Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.

Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today....

The 70s was something of a disaster for unions and business alike, and such confrontations benefitted neither.

The dock strikes were pretty futile in the end (though they did get government to subsidise the jobs of workers holding otherwise redundant positions for a decade or two).
Containerisation in the late 60s/early 70s dramatically and unavoidably reduced the need for dock labour:
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/businessreview/2017/11/10/dockworkers-and-the-introduction-of-containers-in-uk-shipping-in-the-late-1960s/

WhisperingOracle said:

kinabalu said:

isam said:

Beibheirli_C said:

isam said:

Beibheirli_C said:

isam said:

30 odd years later, the Labour party kicked these workers where it hurts, then called them racist for complaining about it

...and they still do now

twitter.com/EnglishRadical/status/1288010229137973248?s=20

Are you serious? I mean really...?????

This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.

The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.

Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!

The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.

I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.

Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.

Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today.

It’s one of the things I find most baffling about modern left wing politics, they rail against the free market in a lot of ways but seem to consider poor peoples labour fair game

It's a big issue and I pretty much share your take except for the race and immigration angle. For me, the notion that the boss class use this to divide the workers has much going for it. This sort of thing -

https://isreview.org/issue/98/race-class-and-capitalism

It's a very interesting political question. The modern identity politics of the right is, in part, a very clear and effective way of dividing up working class people. Tabloid campaigns against EU immigrant labourers, for instance, from the offices of what are essentially billionaire-owned and plutocrat mouthpieces, defiintely bear some relation to this.

On the other hand, on some occasions, parts of the modern left are also doing the plutocrats' work for them. The insistent focus on statue issues rather than foodbanks in the Guardian, for instance, is very handy for ensuring the continuity of current working conditions, and discouraging cross-ethnic and cross-cultural working class activity.

DavidL said:

contrarian said:

Johnson could not make a better job of making the coming economic cataclysm absolutely as bad as it possibly could be if he tried.

It really is a quite breathtaking example of cowardice, cravenness, vanity and incompetence.

And breath...

Feel better now?

Carnyx said:

Philip_Thompson said:

contrarian said:

Philip_Thompson said:

contrarian said:

Johnson could not make a better job of making the coming economic cataclysm absolutely as bad as it possibly could be if he tried.

It really is a quite breathtaking example of cowardice, cravenness, vanity and incompetence.

I think you are going to be very, very wrong.

If the government hadn't done furlough etc then I'm quite confident the economic damage would have been much, much worse as countless healthy businesses would have gone to the wall.

Thanks to minimally intrusive measures like masks etc now, the economic damage will be really minimised going forwards.

All furlough as done is encourage extremely bad habits at vast expense.

We're at the point where the FT is reportingMPs are pleading with the government to 'order' firms to send workers back to their offices

I mean FFS. This is stalinist Russia stuff. They are that desperate.

And the results will be the same.

Any MP doing that should be ashamed of themselves. The government is rightly ignoring such idiocy.

And at the same time they are happily supporting a regime which discourages people from using public transport, amongst other things.

Why are the MPs doing it, anyway? Pressure from property companies? There can't be that many votes in city centre business districts.

Malmesbury said:

NickPalmer said:

Slackbladder said:

Something which people aren't talking about is the amount of holiday which people at work will have been building up. I've taken really no days holiday this year so far, and still have well over 20 days to take.

I'm beginning to be pressured (as with everyone at my work) to consider taking them, but I don't really want to. Obviously some people have jumped at the chance of a summer holiday in Spain and the like on the basis that they 'have' to take holiday, and don;t want to just hang around at home (especially if you're working from home already!).

It's only going to get worse, and could be a big issue for lots of firms. I can already see I'm going to be very busy this year and could easilt run though my work to December without a good time for a break.

Of course i 'do' need a break, and will take at least a week soon, but then I still over 3 other weeks to take off.... for what?

Yes, we have a mild management style but the message has been gently communicated that it would be really nice if people took some days off now (especially as with Parliament in recess there is less lobbying going on) rather than saving it all up. Lots of people are taking long weekends just to add variety to the 5/2 routine, but nobody is taking a long break. It's one of the subtle problems that will rear its head later in the year.

Where I am, we were flat out told that we needed to use x amount of holiday by date y.

Pretty sensible - otherwise everyone would have taken the entire of December off.

Malmesbury said:

Carnyx said:

Philip_Thompson said:

contrarian said:

Philip_Thompson said:

contrarian said:

Johnson could not make a better job of making the coming economic cataclysm absolutely as bad as it possibly could be if he tried.

It really is a quite breathtaking example of cowardice, cravenness, vanity and incompetence.

I think you are going to be very, very wrong.

If the government hadn't done furlough etc then I'm quite confident the economic damage would have been much, much worse as countless healthy businesses would have gone to the wall.

Thanks to minimally intrusive measures like masks etc now, the economic damage will be really minimised going forwards.

All furlough as done is encourage extremely bad habits at vast expense.

We're at the point where the FT is reportingMPs are pleading with the government to 'order' firms to send workers back to their offices

I mean FFS. This is stalinist Russia stuff. They are that desperate.

And the results will be the same.

Any MP doing that should be ashamed of themselves. The government is rightly ignoring such idiocy.

And at the same time they are happily supporting a regime which discourages people from using public transport, amongst other things.

Why are the MPs doing it, anyway? Pressure from property companies? There can't be that many votes in city centre business districts.

A very large number of businesses are going to go to the wall over this.

Lots of jobs lost.

Essentially a lot of retail spend is relocating (and has already done so), very, very sharply.

MarqueeMark said:

Beibheirli_C said:

DavidL said:

contrarian said:

Johnson could not make a better job of making the coming economic cataclysm absolutely as bad as it possibly could be if he tried.

It really is a quite breathtaking example of cowardice, cravenness, vanity and incompetence.

And breath...

Feel better now?

I am looking forward to the economic cataclysm. It is not often you get to "... live in interesting times"

When was the last time? Berlin Wall coming down - good news story, but uncertainty how the Russians would react still. Before that - the Cuban missile crisis?

Nigelb said:

ExiledInScotland said:

Question: does anyone know of an insurance company who would provide health insurance cover for a 2 week non-essential trip to Portugal EXCLUDING Covid-19 cover (so emergency + repatriation for accidents)? Eldest daughter wants to go with the boyfriend next week, and our family policy won't cover her due to the FCO advice at the moment.

And yes I know it's stupid.

I believe such a policy is available from the Post Office.
https://www.postoffice.co.uk/travel-insurance/single-trip

RochdalePioneers said:

Malmesbury said:

WhisperingOracle said:

Nigelb said:

isam said:

Beibheirli_C said:

isam said:

Beibheirli_C said:

isam said:

30 odd years later, the Labour party kicked these workers where it hurts, then called them racist for complaining about it

...and they still do now

twitter.com/EnglishRadical/status/1288010229137973248?s=20

Are you serious? I mean really...?????

This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.

The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.

Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!

The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.

I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.

Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.

Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today....

The 70s was something of a disaster for unions and business alike, and such confrontations benefitted neither.

The dock strikes were pretty futile in the end (though they did get government to subsidise the jobs of workers holding otherwise redundant positions for a decade or two).
Containerisation in the late 60s/early 70s dramatically and unavoidably reduced the need for dock labour:
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/businessreview/2017/11/10/dockworkers-and-the-introduction-of-containers-in-uk-shipping-in-the-late-1960s/

Union unrest had two sides - often awful, non-consultative and non-consensual management, and often tribal, non-discriminating and wilfully obstructive workers. The common denominator was class, and a key reason why countries like Germany were able to forge much better industrial relations.

Union power became too great, but arguably since then, against the long-term interests of the overall economy, as Piketty argues, and in Anglo-Saxon countries particularly, it's become too weak.

The fact that New Labour was not even prepared to consider German-style structures like workers on boards, and that, even more tellingly, Theresa May's government pretended to, before them throwing out, does suggest, as isam says, that we've gone much too far the other way.

It was also about the toxic accumulation,ulation of strife in existing companies.

The new car factories in the UK which were built in the 80s seem to be much happier places all around.

You read up on some of the union vs BL strikes and wonder what the union had in mind. If the cars their members make when they can be bothered have horrendous build quality and you had a long wait as strikes crippled production, then closure of the factory / business and with it your job was always likely.

The idea that the government would keep siding with them over management to make shit cars in a shit way was at best a pipe dream.

Fysics_Teacher said:

Beibheirli_C said:

WhisperingOracle said:

Nigelb said:

isam said:

Beibheirli_C said:

isam said:

Beibheirli_C said:

isam said:

30 odd years later, the Labour party kicked these workers where it hurts, then called them racist for complaining about it

...and they still do now

twitter.com/EnglishRadical/status/1288010229137973248?s=20

Are you serious? I mean really...?????

This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.

The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.

Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!

The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.

I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.

Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.

Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today....

The 70s was something of a disaster for unions and business alike, and such confrontations benefitted neither.

The dock strikes were pretty futile in the end (though they did get government to subsidise the jobs of workers holding otherwise redundant positions for a decade or two).
Containerisation in the late 60s/early 70s dramatically and unavoidably reduced the need for dock labour:
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/businessreview/2017/11/10/dockworkers-and-the-introduction-of-containers-in-uk-shipping-in-the-late-1960s/

Union unrest had two sides - often awful, non-consultative and non-consensual management, and often tribal, non-discriminating and wilfully obstructive workers. The common denominator was class, and a key reason why countries like Germany were able to forge much better industrial relations.

Union power became too great, but arguably since then, against the long-term interests of the overall economy, as Piketty argues, and in Anglo-Saxon countries particularly, it's become too weak.

The fact that New Labour was not even prepared to consider German-style structures like workers on boards, and that, even more tellingly, Theresa May's government pretended to, before them throwing out, does suggest, as isam says, that we've gone much too far the other way.

Zero Hours Contracts should be outlawed

That’s cover teaching stuffed then.

isam said:

Beibheirli_C said:

isam said:

Beibheirli_C said:

isam said:

30 odd years later, the Labour party kicked these workers where it hurts, then called them racist for complaining about it

...and they still do now

twitter.com/EnglishRadical/status/1288010229137973248?s=20

Are you serious? I mean really...?????

This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.

The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.

Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!

The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.

I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.

Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.

Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today....

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Malmesbury said:

NickPalmer said:

Slackbladder said:

Something which people aren't talking about is the amount of holiday which people at work will have been building up. I've taken really no days holiday this year so far, and still have well over 20 days to take.

I'm beginning to be pressured (as with everyone at my work) to consider taking them, but I don't really want to. Obviously some people have jumped at the chance of a summer holiday in Spain and the like on the basis that they 'have' to take holiday, and don;t want to just hang around at home (especially if you're working from home already!).

It's only going to get worse, and could be a big issue for lots of firms. I can already see I'm going to be very busy this year and could easilt run though my work to December without a good time for a break.

Of course i 'do' need a break, and will take at least a week soon, but then I still over 3 other weeks to take off.... for what?

Yes, we have a mild management style but the message has been gently communicated that it would be really nice if people took some days off now (especially as with Parliament in recess there is less lobbying going on) rather than saving it all up. Lots of people are taking long weekends just to add variety to the 5/2 routine, but nobody is taking a long break. It's one of the subtle problems that will rear its head later in the year.

Where I am, we were flat out told that we needed to use x amount of holiday by date y.

Pretty sensible - otherwise everyone would have taken the entire of December off.

I am doing my bit by going to Scotland for three weeks in August!

ExiledInScotland said:

Nigelb said:

ExiledInScotland said:

Question: does anyone know of an insurance company who would provide health insurance cover for a 2 week non-essential trip to Portugal EXCLUDING Covid-19 cover (so emergency + repatriation for accidents)? Eldest daughter wants to go with the boyfriend next week, and our family policy won't cover her due to the FCO advice at the moment.

And yes I know it's stupid.

I believe such a policy is available from the Post Office.
https://www.postoffice.co.uk/travel-insurance/single-trip

Unfortunately not - "Remember, your cover won’t count if you travel against official Government and FCO advice."

state_go_away said:

another_richard said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

On topic.

I am sorry but who in their right mind thought it was a good idea to book overseas holidays this year after the virus had hit. Obviously I can understand beforehand as no one could have predicted this. But once we had been through the first wave, you have to be mad to book a holiday and not think it might all fall apart.

For some people holidays seem to be their main focus in life.

I know people who weren't concerned about the risks to health from covid or the risks to their jobs (though some certainly should have been) but never stopped talking about how their holiday plans were being disrupted.

As soon as lockdown ended they were looking to book new holidays.

Its called having a life!

Sean_F said:

WhisperingOracle said:

kinabalu said:

isam said:

Beibheirli_C said:

isam said:

Beibheirli_C said:

isam said:

30 odd years later, the Labour party kicked these workers where it hurts, then called them racist for complaining about it

...and they still do now

twitter.com/EnglishRadical/status/1288010229137973248?s=20

Are you serious? I mean really...?????

This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.

The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.

Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!

The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.

I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.

Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.

Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today.

It’s one of the things I find most baffling about modern left wing politics, they rail against the free market in a lot of ways but seem to consider poor peoples labour fair game

It's a big issue and I pretty much share your take except for the race and immigration angle. For me, the notion that the boss class use this to divide the workers has much going for it. This sort of thing -

https://isreview.org/issue/98/race-class-and-capitalism

It's a very interesting political question. The modern identity politics of the right is, in part, a very clear and effective way of dividing up working class people. Tabloid campaigns against EU immigrant labourers, for instance, from the offices of what are essentially billionaire-owned and plutocrat mouthpieces, defiintely bear some relation to this.

On the other hand, on some occasions, parts of the modern left are also doing the plutocrats' work for them. The insistent focus on statue issues rather than foodbanks in the Guardian, for instance, is very handy for ensuring the continuity of current working conditions, and discouraging cross-ethnic and cross-cultural working class activity.

I'd recommend Piers Wauchope's History of Camden Council, which sounds dull as ditchwater, but gives a very interesting account of how the local Labour developed between 1964 and 1986. It's a microcosm of how the Labour Party has continued to develop.

At the start of Camden Council, Labour was dominated by St. Pancras. St. Pancras' concerns were housing and employment rights. By 1986, it was dominated by Hampstead. Hampstead's concerns were women' issues, CND, and anti-apartheid.

MarqueeMark said:

Beibheirli_C said:

DavidL said:

contrarian said:

Johnson could not make a better job of making the coming economic cataclysm absolutely as bad as it possibly could be if he tried.

It really is a quite breathtaking example of cowardice, cravenness, vanity and incompetence.

And breath...

Feel better now?

I am looking forward to the economic cataclysm. It is not often you get to "... live in interesting times"

When was the last time? Berlin Wall coming down - good news story, but uncertainty how the Russians would react still. Before that - the Cuban missile crisis?

Malmesbury said:

NHS England Hospital numbers out

Headline - 12
7 days - 6 - lots of back dating
Yesterday - 0

kinabalu said:

isam said:

kinabalu said:

WhisperingOracle said:

kinabalu said:

isam said:

Beibheirli_C said:

isam said:

Beibheirli_C said:

isam said:

30 odd years later, the Labour party kicked these workers where it hurts, then called them racist for complaining about it

...and they still do now

twitter.com/EnglishRadical/status/1288010229137973248?s=20

Are you serious? I mean really...?????

This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.

The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.

Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!

The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.

I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.

Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.

Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today.

It’s one of the things I find most baffling about modern left wing politics, they rail against the free market in a lot of ways but seem to consider poor peoples labour fair game

It's a big issue and I pretty much share your take except for the race and immigration angle. For me, the notion that the boss class use this to divide the workers has much going for it. This sort of thing -

https://isreview.org/issue/98/race-class-and-capitalism

It's a very interesting political question. The modern identity politics of the right is, in part, a very clear and effective way of dividing up working class people. Tabloid campaigns against EU immigrant labourers, for instance, from the offices of what are essentially billionaire-owned and plutocrat mouthpieces, defiintely bear some relation to this.

On the other hand, on some occasions, parts of the modern left are also doing the plutocrats' work for them. The insistent focus on statue issues rather than foodbanks in the Guardian, for instance, is very handy for ensuring the continuity of current working conditions, and discouraging cross-ethnic and cross-cultural working class activity.

All about priorities, I suppose.

I'd say the top level mission statement for the left should be that we work towards eradicating, within the constraints of democratic consent and personal liberty, inequalities of class, race, gender and sexuality.

These will usually go in tandem imo but sometimes there will be clashes. A measure to reduce class inequality, for example, might widen gender inequality.

So you need a hierarchy for when these clashes happen. Which is the more important? Race trumps class? The opposite? What about gender? What about LBGT?

And this is difficult. Class is probably the most important in terms of the size of the problem but the other things are about personal identity and therefore are more visceral and the inequalities thereof in a sense more egregious.

One thing is certain - if you get either the priorities wrong or the messaging wrong you end up with some quite bizarre alliances against you. Obvious example, Brexit, a project of the reactionary right delivered with the help of blue collar workers and the underclass.

Have a listen - Maurice Glasman

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pa5vsa1FLKY

Thanks. I'll try but it's quite a long one.

Is he pretty much agreeing with me?

WhisperingOracle said:

Nigelb said:

isam said:

Beibheirli_C said:

isam said:

Beibheirli_C said:

isam said:

30 odd years later, the Labour party kicked these workers where it hurts, then called them racist for complaining about it

...and they still do now

twitter.com/EnglishRadical/status/1288010229137973248?s=20

Are you serious? I mean really...?????

This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.

The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.

Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!

The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.

I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.

Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.

Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today....

The 70s was something of a disaster for unions and business alike, and such confrontations benefitted neither.

The dock strikes were pretty futile in the end (though they did get government to subsidise the jobs of workers holding otherwise redundant positions for a decade or two).
Containerisation in the late 60s/early 70s dramatically and unavoidably reduced the need for dock labour:
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/businessreview/2017/11/10/dockworkers-and-the-introduction-of-containers-in-uk-shipping-in-the-late-1960s/

Union unrest had two sides - often awful, non-consultative and non-consensual management, and often tribal, non-discriminating and wilfully obstructive workers. The common denominator was class, and a key reason why countries like Germany were able to forge much better industrial relations.

Union power became too great, but arguably since then, against the long-term interests of the overall economy, as Piketty argues, and in Anglo-Saxon countries particularly, it's become too weak.

The fact that New Labour was not even prepared to consider German-style structures like workers on boards, and that, even more tellingly, Theresa May's government pretended to, before them throwing out, does suggest, as isam says, that we've gone much too far the other way.

DavidL said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Malmesbury said:

NickPalmer said:

Slackbladder said:

Something which people aren't talking about is the amount of holiday which people at work will have been building up. I've taken really no days holiday this year so far, and still have well over 20 days to take.

I'm beginning to be pressured (as with everyone at my work) to consider taking them, but I don't really want to. Obviously some people have jumped at the chance of a summer holiday in Spain and the like on the basis that they 'have' to take holiday, and don;t want to just hang around at home (especially if you're working from home already!).

It's only going to get worse, and could be a big issue for lots of firms. I can already see I'm going to be very busy this year and could easilt run though my work to December without a good time for a break.

Of course i 'do' need a break, and will take at least a week soon, but then I still over 3 other weeks to take off.... for what?

Yes, we have a mild management style but the message has been gently communicated that it would be really nice if people took some days off now (especially as with Parliament in recess there is less lobbying going on) rather than saving it all up. Lots of people are taking long weekends just to add variety to the 5/2 routine, but nobody is taking a long break. It's one of the subtle problems that will rear its head later in the year.

Where I am, we were flat out told that we needed to use x amount of holiday by date y.

Pretty sensible - otherwise everyone would have taken the entire of December off.

I am doing my bit by going to Scotland for three weeks in August!

Don't tell Nicola!

Fysics_Teacher said:

WhisperingOracle said:

Fysics_Teacher said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Malmesbury said:

WhisperingOracle said:

Nigelb said:

isam said:

Beibheirli_C said:

isam said:

Beibheirli_C said:

isam said:

30 odd years later, the Labour party kicked these workers where it hurts, then called them racist for complaining about it

...and they still do now

twitter.com/EnglishRadical/status/1288010229137973248?s=20

Are you serious? I mean really...?????

This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.

The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.

Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!

The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.

I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.

Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.

Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today....

The 70s was something of a disaster for unions and business alike, and such confrontations benefitted neither.

The dock strikes were pretty futile in the end (though they did get government to subsidise the jobs of workers holding otherwise redundant positions for a decade or two).
Containerisation in the late 60s/early 70s dramatically and unavoidably reduced the need for dock labour:
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/businessreview/2017/11/10/dockworkers-and-the-introduction-of-containers-in-uk-shipping-in-the-late-1960s/

Union unrest had two sides - often awful, non-consultative and non-consensual management, and often tribal, non-discriminating and wilfully obstructive workers. The common denominator was class, and a key reason why countries like Germany were able to forge much better industrial relations.

Union power became too great, but arguably since then, against the long-term interests of the overall economy, as Piketty argues, and in Anglo-Saxon countries particularly, it's become too weak.

The fact that New Labour was not even prepared to consider German-style structures like workers on boards, and that, even more tellingly, Theresa May's government pretended to, before them throwing out, does suggest, as isam says, that we've gone much too far the other way.

It was also about the toxic accumulation,ulation of strife in existing companies.

The new car factories in the UK which were built in the 80s seem to be much happier places all around.

You read up on some of the union vs BL strikes and wonder what the union had in mind. If the cars their members make when they can be bothered have horrendous build quality and you had a long wait as strikes crippled production, then closure of the factory / business and with it your job was always likely.

The idea that the government would keep siding with them over management to make shit cars in a shit way was at best a pipe dream.

One hypothesis that would explain it is an attempt by the Soviets to destabilise our industry, but I’m not sure there is any evidence for that.

Britain's still-Victorian class relations of the 1960's and 70's were well able enough to do the job of self-harm themselves, I would say.

Never ascribe to malevolence what can be explained by incompetence you mean?

MarqueeMark said:

Slackbladder said:

MarqueeMark said:

Beibheirli_C said:

DavidL said:

contrarian said:

Johnson could not make a better job of making the coming economic cataclysm absolutely as bad as it possibly could be if he tried.

It really is a quite breathtaking example of cowardice, cravenness, vanity and incompetence.

And breath...

Feel better now?

I am looking forward to the economic cataclysm. It is not often you get to "... live in interesting times"

When was the last time? Berlin Wall coming down - good news story, but uncertainty how the Russians would react still. Before that - the Cuban missile crisis?

9/11

I guess. I just never saw 9/11 as anything other than an opportunity for Bush to go kick the shit out of oil-rich countries. I never saw it as changing the way the world is.

Pulpstar said:

Fysics_Teacher said:

Beibheirli_C said:

WhisperingOracle said:

Nigelb said:

isam said:

Beibheirli_C said:

isam said:

Beibheirli_C said:

isam said:

30 odd years later, the Labour party kicked these workers where it hurts, then called them racist for complaining about it

...and they still do now

twitter.com/EnglishRadical/status/1288010229137973248?s=20

Are you serious? I mean really...?????

This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.

The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.

Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!

The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.

I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.

Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.

Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today....

The 70s was something of a disaster for unions and business alike, and such confrontations benefitted neither.

The dock strikes were pretty futile in the end (though they did get government to subsidise the jobs of workers holding otherwise redundant positions for a decade or two).
Containerisation in the late 60s/early 70s dramatically and unavoidably reduced the need for dock labour:
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/businessreview/2017/11/10/dockworkers-and-the-introduction-of-containers-in-uk-shipping-in-the-late-1960s/

Union unrest had two sides - often awful, non-consultative and non-consensual management, and often tribal, non-discriminating and wilfully obstructive workers. The common denominator was class, and a key reason why countries like Germany were able to forge much better industrial relations.

Union power became too great, but arguably since then, against the long-term interests of the overall economy, as Piketty argues, and in Anglo-Saxon countries particularly, it's become too weak.

The fact that New Labour was not even prepared to consider German-style structures like workers on boards, and that, even more tellingly, Theresa May's government pretended to, before them throwing out, does suggest, as isam says, that we've gone much too far the other way.

Zero Hours Contracts should be outlawed

That’s cover teaching stuffed then.

One solution I thought up was that ZHC could be used but the statutory minimum wage for those contracts should be higher than the regular statutory minimum wage.

RochdalePioneers said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Beibheirli_C said:

WhisperingOracle said:

Nigelb said:

isam said:

Beibheirli_C said:

isam said:

Beibheirli_C said:

isam said:

30 odd years later, the Labour party kicked these workers where it hurts, then called them racist for complaining about it

...and they still do now

twitter.com/EnglishRadical/status/1288010229137973248?s=20

Are you serious? I mean really...?????

This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.

The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.

Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!

The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.

I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.

Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.

Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today....

The 70s was something of a disaster for unions and business alike, and such confrontations benefitted neither.

The dock strikes were pretty futile in the end (though they did get government to subsidise the jobs of workers holding otherwise redundant positions for a decade or two).
Containerisation in the late 60s/early 70s dramatically and unavoidably reduced the need for dock labour:
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/businessreview/2017/11/10/dockworkers-and-the-introduction-of-containers-in-uk-shipping-in-the-late-1960s/

Union unrest had two sides - often awful, non-consultative and non-consensual management, and often tribal, non-discriminating and wilfully obstructive workers. The common denominator was class, and a key reason why countries like Germany were able to forge much better industrial relations.

Union power became too great, but arguably since then, against the long-term interests of the overall economy, as Piketty argues, and in Anglo-Saxon countries particularly, it's become too weak.

The fact that New Labour was not even prepared to consider German-style structures like workers on boards, and that, even more tellingly, Theresa May's government pretended to, before them throwing out, does suggest, as isam says, that we've gone much too far the other way.

Zero Hours Contracts should be outlawed

That's absolutely ridiculous! There's a definite time and a place for them.

Exclusive zero hour contracts were abusive and outlawed years ago.

"Ban zero hours contracts - you are being Exploited by The Man" was one of the key indicators that Labour has lost their grip on how people live. Should we end exploitative contracts where people can be left on the hook day to day if they have work (or worse) - yes. Should we outlaw flexible contracts that so many people appreciate because life is complex? No.

Beibheirli_C said:

MarqueeMark said:

Beibheirli_C said:

DavidL said:

contrarian said:

Johnson could not make a better job of making the coming economic cataclysm absolutely as bad as it possibly could be if he tried.

It really is a quite breathtaking example of cowardice, cravenness, vanity and incompetence.

And breath...

Feel better now?

I am looking forward to the economic cataclysm. It is not often you get to "... live in interesting times"

When was the last time? Berlin Wall coming down - good news story, but uncertainty how the Russians would react still. Before that - the Cuban missile crisis?

I was in nappies during the Cuban Missile Crisis so I missed that one as playing with my spinning-top was a bigger concern.

The Berlin Wall and 911 were more like "events" - they happened elsewhere and were over with quickly even though they had longer lasting aftermaths.

I guess that Covid would qualify as it has had a direct effect on me and those I know, is prolonged and the outcome is not clear. If you where to combine Covid, No-Deal Brexit and economic mismanagement as a prolonged 5 to 10 year thing then I think we have covered all the bases.

RochdalePioneers said:

Malmesbury said:

WhisperingOracle said:

Nigelb said:

isam said:

Beibheirli_C said:

isam said:

Beibheirli_C said:

isam said:

30 odd years later, the Labour party kicked these workers where it hurts, then called them racist for complaining about it

...and they still do now

twitter.com/EnglishRadical/status/1288010229137973248?s=20

Are you serious? I mean really...?????

This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.

The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.

Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!

The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.

I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.

Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.

Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today....

The 70s was something of a disaster for unions and business alike, and such confrontations benefitted neither.

The dock strikes were pretty futile in the end (though they did get government to subsidise the jobs of workers holding otherwise redundant positions for a decade or two).
Containerisation in the late 60s/early 70s dramatically and unavoidably reduced the need for dock labour:
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/businessreview/2017/11/10/dockworkers-and-the-introduction-of-containers-in-uk-shipping-in-the-late-1960s/

Union unrest had two sides - often awful, non-consultative and non-consensual management, and often tribal, non-discriminating and wilfully obstructive workers. The common denominator was class, and a key reason why countries like Germany were able to forge much better industrial relations.

Union power became too great, but arguably since then, against the long-term interests of the overall economy, as Piketty argues, and in Anglo-Saxon countries particularly, it's become too weak.

The fact that New Labour was not even prepared to consider German-style structures like workers on boards, and that, even more tellingly, Theresa May's government pretended to, before them throwing out, does suggest, as isam says, that we've gone much too far the other way.

It was also about the toxic accumulation,ulation of strife in existing companies.

The new car factories in the UK which were built in the 80s seem to be much happier places all around.

You read up on some of the union vs BL strikes and wonder what the union had in mind. If the cars their members make when they can be bothered have horrendous build quality and you had a long wait as strikes crippled production, then closure of the factory / business and with it your job was always likely.

The idea that the government would keep siding with them over management to make shit cars in a shit way was at best a pipe dream.

DavidL said:

MarqueeMark said:

Beibheirli_C said:

DavidL said:

contrarian said:

Johnson could not make a better job of making the coming economic cataclysm absolutely as bad as it possibly could be if he tried.

It really is a quite breathtaking example of cowardice, cravenness, vanity and incompetence.

And breath...

Feel better now?

I am looking forward to the economic cataclysm. It is not often you get to "... live in interesting times"

When was the last time? Berlin Wall coming down - good news story, but uncertainty how the Russians would react still. Before that - the Cuban missile crisis?

The period leading up to that with Solidarity in Poland was absolutely riveting. The other story I think totally gripped me was the Falklands war. The media were nothing like as pervasive as they are now and no internet of course but I was just obsessed with every detail.

MarqueeMark said:

Agree that this has hit home more than any event in my lifetime.

Nigelb said:

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that.
But German industrial policy is about much more than workers on boards, and evolving those kinds of structures is perhaps as much, or more about culture as it is about legislation.
As as has been pointed out recently, Germany seems to be a pretty unequal society, at least in terms of wealth, too.

LadyG said:

TOPPING said:

MarqueeMark said:

Agree that this has hit home more than any event in my lifetime.

Covid is strange because it is a deadly virus but it isn't a deadly virus for most people so the overall reaction is understandable and also, as we are seeing from da yoof on tour, ignorable. Certainly the measures taken, lockdown, etc are once in a lifetime events. But walking around it doesn't feel as though we are in mortal danger. Whether rightly or wrongly.

For me IIRC just before Gulf 1 there was a time when it was thought that Iran and Iraq would come together to fight the infidel, thus occasioning a literal clash of civilisations. A cultural war, but a hot one, not just one conducted in the Graun Opinion section.

Covid 19 is the biggest event of my lifetime. We aren't even halfway through and it is transforming the world.

Inter alia, it will mark the decisive moment when supreme power passed from the West to the East.