This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.
The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.
Unions today are not quite the luddites they were in the 70s, having absorbed the lessons of recent history.
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/hydrogen-champion-hyundai-races-electric-020141822.html ...Hyundai could also face a roadblock from its powerful union, which is worried about job security as EVs require fewer components and workers than gasoline vehicles; at Hyundai, this is partly because the automaker makes a number of key components for conventional cars in-house, while many EV parts are outsourced at present.
The union is pushing for the company to assemble key EV components, like battery packs and motors, in-house to offset any reduction in workforce.
"We are not opposed to EV business. Kodak went bankrupt because it stuck to film even as the industry was shifting to digital photography," union spokesman Kwon Oh-kook told Reuters.
"We just want to protect the jobs of our members," he said....
I am sorry but who in their right mind thought it was a good idea to book overseas holidays this year after the virus had hit. Obviously I can understand beforehand as no one could have predicted this. But once we had been through the first wave, you have to be mad to book a holiday and not think it might all fall apart.
A friend and his wife went to Ibiza. On the basis that they are both WFH, and could work if stuck there. Or work from quarantine when they returned.
They got hit by quarantine, in the end.
In which case I doubt they're they are the types offering vox pops about how unforseeable and unjust this all is - good on them - and hope they keep happy and well.
I'm someone who has been banging on for months that our Government moved late at every stage and we suffered the consequences. That still stands. But I won't have any criticism them for prioritising public health over a total luxury - with a known risk attached.
Anyone visiting loved ones after many months I obviously have much more sympathy for.
They factored it in - he's Spanish and regards being stuck in Ibiza (if that had happened) as "so what?".
They've ended up with the quarantine - which means not a lot, since they are working from home anyway..
Yup, that's exactly our situation as well. It literally makes no difference whether we're stuck indoors for 14 days or not and getting away to Sicily for 10 days seems like a worthwhile trade for the risk of quarantine.
This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.
The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.
Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!
The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.
I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.
Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.
Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today.
It’s one of the things I find most baffling about modern left wing politics, they rail against the free market in a lot of ways but seem to consider poor peoples labour fair game
It's a big issue and I pretty much share your take except for the race and immigration angle. For me, the notion that the boss class use this to divide the workers has much going for it. This sort of thing -
It's a very interesting political question. The modern identity politics of the right is, in part, a very clear and effective way of dividing up working class people. Tabloid campaigns against EU immigrant labourers, for instance, from the offices of what are essentially billionaire-owned and plutocrat mouthpieces, defiintely bear some relation to this.
On the other hand, on some occasions, parts of the modern left are also doing the plutocrats' work for them. The insistent focus on statue issues rather than foodbanks in the Guardian, for instance, is very handy for ensuring the continuity of current working conditions, and discouraging cross-ethnic and cross-cultural working class activity.
Johnson could not make a better job of making the coming economic cataclysm absolutely as bad as it possibly could be if he tried.
It really is a quite breathtaking example of cowardice, cravenness, vanity and incompetence.
I think you are going to be very, very wrong.
If the government hadn't done furlough etc then I'm quite confident the economic damage would have been much, much worse as countless healthy businesses would have gone to the wall.
Thanks to minimally intrusive measures like masks etc now, the economic damage will be really minimised going forwards.
All furlough as done is encourage extremely bad habits at vast expense.
We're at the point where the FT is reportingMPs are pleading with the government to 'order' firms to send workers back to their offices
I mean FFS. This is stalinist Russia stuff. They are that desperate.
Johnson could not make a better job of making the coming economic cataclysm absolutely as bad as it possibly could be if he tried.
It really is a quite breathtaking example of cowardice, cravenness, vanity and incompetence.
I think you are going to be very, very wrong.
If the government hadn't done furlough etc then I'm quite confident the economic damage would have been much, much worse as countless healthy businesses would have gone to the wall.
Thanks to minimally intrusive measures like masks etc now, the economic damage will be really minimised going forwards.
All furlough as done is encourage extremely bad habits at vast expense.
We're at the point where the FT is reportingMPs are pleading with the government to 'order' firms to send workers back to their offices
I mean FFS. This is stalinist Russia stuff. They are that desperate.
And the results will be the same.
Any MP doing that should be ashamed of themselves. The government is rightly ignoring such idiocy.
Not all of us travel abroad for holiday. Some of us have close family abroad. That they live somewhere in the sun not the issue - if my FIL lived in Aberdare instead of Alicante I guess we'd be having a lot of trips to Wales instead of Spain every year.
Another wrinkle in the fixture calendar and Covid-19 relations between the UK and Spain considering Real Madrid are due play a match in Manchester a week on Saturday.
Man City vs Real Madrid in serious doubt after positive Covid-19 test - reports
The Champions League last 16 game is in jeopardy after Spanish sources say the La Liga giants have a player self-isolating
Another wrinkle in the fixture calendar and Covid-19 relations between the UK and Spain considering Real Madrid are due play a match in Manchester a week on Saturday.
Man City vs Real Madrid in serious doubt after positive Covid-19 test - reports
The Champions League last 16 game is in jeopardy after Spanish sources say the La Liga giants have a player self-isolating
Johnson could not make a better job of making the coming economic cataclysm absolutely as bad as it possibly could be if he tried.
It really is a quite breathtaking example of cowardice, cravenness, vanity and incompetence.
I think you are going to be very, very wrong.
If the government hadn't done furlough etc then I'm quite confident the economic damage would have been much, much worse as countless healthy businesses would have gone to the wall.
Thanks to minimally intrusive measures like masks etc now, the economic damage will be really minimised going forwards.
All furlough as done is encourage extremely bad habits at vast expense.
We're at the point where the FT is reportingMPs are pleading with the government to 'order' firms to send workers back to their offices
I mean FFS. This is stalinist Russia stuff. They are that desperate.
And the results will be the same.
If this really was Stalinist Russia stuff people like you would have been sent to the gulags a long time ago.
Johnson could not make a better job of making the coming economic cataclysm absolutely as bad as it possibly could be if he tried.
It really is a quite breathtaking example of cowardice, cravenness, vanity and incompetence.
I think you are going to be very, very wrong.
If the government hadn't done furlough etc then I'm quite confident the economic damage would have been much, much worse as countless healthy businesses would have gone to the wall.
Thanks to minimally intrusive measures like masks etc now, the economic damage will be really minimised going forwards.
All furlough as done is encourage extremely bad habits at vast expense.
We're at the point where the FT is reportingMPs are pleading with the government to 'order' firms to send workers back to their offices
I mean FFS. This is stalinist Russia stuff. They are that desperate.
And the results will be the same.
Any MP doing that should be ashamed of themselves. The government is rightly ignoring such idiocy.
A lot of MPs aren't particularly bright but I can see why they are saying it as it avoids explaining to companies that the world has changed and a lot of office based jobs are now (and for ever more will be) home-office based jobs.
Which is why a lot of cafes and other businesses located in what were office heavy areas are doomed, 10-20 years of forthcoming technology driven economic changes occurred overnight in March 2020.
I am sorry but who in their right mind thought it was a good idea to book overseas holidays this year after the virus had hit. Obviously I can understand beforehand as no one could have predicted this. But once we had been through the first wave, you have to be mad to book a holiday and not think it might all fall apart.
A friend and his wife went to Ibiza. On the basis that they are both WFH, and could work if stuck there. Or work from quarantine when they returned.
They got hit by quarantine, in the end.
In which case I doubt they're they are the types offering vox pops about how unforseeable and unjust this all is - good on them - and hope they keep happy and well.
I'm someone who has been banging on for months that our Government moved late at every stage and we suffered the consequences. That still stands. But I won't have any criticism them for prioritising public health over a total luxury - with a known risk attached.
Anyone visiting loved ones after many months I obviously have much more sympathy for.
They factored it in - he's Spanish and regards being stuck in Ibiza (if that had happened) as "so what?".
They've ended up with the quarantine - which means not a lot, since they are working from home anyway..
Yup, that's exactly our situation as well. It literally makes no difference whether we're stuck indoors for 14 days or not and getting away to Sicily for 10 days seems like a worthwhile trade for the risk of quarantine.
Did you see my message below - can the numbers be really *that* different?
Johnson could not make a better job of making the coming economic cataclysm absolutely as bad as it possibly could be if he tried.
It really is a quite breathtaking example of cowardice, cravenness, vanity and incompetence.
I think you are going to be very, very wrong.
If the government hadn't done furlough etc then I'm quite confident the economic damage would have been much, much worse as countless healthy businesses would have gone to the wall.
Thanks to minimally intrusive measures like masks etc now, the economic damage will be really minimised going forwards.
All furlough as done is encourage extremely bad habits at vast expense.
We're at the point where the FT is reportingMPs are pleading with the government to 'order' firms to send workers back to their offices
I mean FFS. This is stalinist Russia stuff. They are that desperate.
And the results will be the same.
Any MP doing that should be ashamed of themselves. The government is rightly ignoring such idiocy.
A lot of MPs aren't particularly bright but I can see why they are saying it as it avoids explaining to companies that the world has changed and a lot of office based jobs are now (and for ever more will be) home-office based jobs.
Which is why a lot of cafes and other businesses located in what were office heavy areas are doomed, 10-20 years of forthcoming technology driven economic changes occurred overnight in March 2020.
Indeed. Change happens. There's no reason to stick your head in the sand if people have evolved their businesses and don't want to return to their office. If they do then help make that possible, but if they don't then so be it.
Another wrinkle in the fixture calendar and Covid-19 relations between the UK and Spain considering Real Madrid are due play a match in Manchester a week on Saturday.
Man City vs Real Madrid in serious doubt after positive Covid-19 test - reports
The Champions League last 16 game is in jeopardy after Spanish sources say the La Liga giants have a player self-isolating
Johnson could not make a better job of making the coming economic cataclysm absolutely as bad as it possibly could be if he tried.
It really is a quite breathtaking example of cowardice, cravenness, vanity and incompetence.
I think you are going to be very, very wrong.
If the government hadn't done furlough etc then I'm quite confident the economic damage would have been much, much worse as countless healthy businesses would have gone to the wall.
Thanks to minimally intrusive measures like masks etc now, the economic damage will be really minimised going forwards.
All furlough as done is encourage extremely bad habits at vast expense.
We're at the point where the FT is reportingMPs are pleading with the government to 'order' firms to send workers back to their offices
I mean FFS. This is stalinist Russia stuff. They are that desperate.
And the results will be the same.
Why should companies have people working from offices if they can do the work just as well from home? My hope is that this is one effect of the virus which becomes permanent. A complete remodelling of work practices.
Question: does anyone know of an insurance company who would provide health insurance cover for a 2 week non-essential trip to Portugal EXCLUDING Covid-19 cover (so emergency + repatriation for accidents)? Eldest daughter wants to go with the boyfriend next week, and our family policy won't cover her due to the FCO advice at the moment.
Question: does anyone know of an insurance company who would provide health insurance cover for a 2 week non-essential trip to Portugal EXCLUDING Covid-19 cover (so emergency + repatriation for accidents)? Eldest daughter wants to go with the boyfriend next week, and our family policy won't cover her due to the FCO advice at the moment.
And yes I know it's stupid.
Good luck, but if I phone an insurance company and say I’ve just doused the house with petrol and am just getting the matches out, I don’t think I’d be overly surprised if they put the phone down when I asked about the price of fire cover.
Why does she feel the need to go to Portugal? Can’t she see, it’s as you put it, stupid?
I am sorry but who in their right mind thought it was a good idea to book overseas holidays this year after the virus had hit. Obviously I can understand beforehand as no one could have predicted this. But once we had been through the first wave, you have to be mad to book a holiday and not think it might all fall apart.
For some people holidays seem to be their main focus in life.
I know people who weren't concerned about the risks to health from covid or the risks to their jobs (though some certainly should have been) but never stopped talking about how their holiday plans were being disrupted.
As soon as lockdown ended they were looking to book new holidays.
Something which people aren't talking about is the amount of holiday which people at work will have been building up. I've taken really no days holiday this year so far, and still have well over 20 days to take.
I'm beginning to be pressured (as with everyone at my work) to consider taking them, but I don't really want to. Obviously some people have jumped at the chance of a summer holiday in Spain and the like on the basis that they 'have' to take holiday, and don;t want to just hang around at home (especially if you're working from home already!).
It's only going to get worse, and could be a big issue for lots of firms. I can already see I'm going to be very busy this year and could easilt run though my work to December without a good time for a break.
Of course i 'do' need a break, and will take at least a week soon, but then I still over 3 other weeks to take off.... for what?
Yes, we have a mild management style but the message has been gently communicated that it would be really nice if people took some days off now (especially as with Parliament in recess there is less lobbying going on) rather than saving it all up. Lots of people are taking long weekends just to add variety to the 5/2 routine, but nobody is taking a long break. It's one of the subtle problems that will rear its head later in the year.
Where I am, we were flat out told that we needed to use x amount of holiday by date y.
Pretty sensible - otherwise everyone would have taken the entire of December off.
We've agreed with our staff that they will not accumulate holidays whilst on furlough. It was a quid pro quo for keeping wages at 100%.
Johnson could not make a better job of making the coming economic cataclysm absolutely as bad as it possibly could be if he tried. It really is a quite breathtaking example of cowardice, cravenness, vanity and incompetence.
I think you are going to be very, very wrong. If the government hadn't done furlough etc then I'm quite confident the economic damage would have been much, much worse as countless healthy businesses would have gone to the wall. Thanks to minimally intrusive measures like masks etc now, the economic damage will be really minimised going forwards.
All furlough as done is encourage extremely bad habits at vast expense. We're at the point where the FT is reporting MPs are pleading with the government to 'order' firms to send workers back to their offices I mean FFS. This is stalinist Russia stuff. They are that desperate. And the results will be the same.
Any MP doing that should be ashamed of themselves. The government is rightly ignoring such idiocy.
I wonder what the argument from these Conservative MPs would be that they somehow have the power to order people to go back to work in offices.
This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.
The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.
Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!
The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.
I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.
Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.
Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today....
The 70s was something of a disaster for unions and business alike, and such confrontations benefitted neither.
Another wrinkle in the fixture calendar and Covid-19 relations between the UK and Spain considering Real Madrid are due play a match in Manchester a week on Saturday.
Man City vs Real Madrid in serious doubt after positive Covid-19 test - reports
The Champions League last 16 game is in jeopardy after Spanish sources say the La Liga giants have a player self-isolating
This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.
The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.
Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!
The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.
I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.
Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.
Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today.
It’s one of the things I find most baffling about modern left wing politics, they rail against the free market in a lot of ways but seem to consider poor peoples labour fair game
It's a big issue and I pretty much share your take except for the race and immigration angle. For me, the notion that the boss class use this to divide the workers has much going for it. This sort of thing -
It's a very interesting political question. The modern identity politics of the right is, in part, a very clear and effective way of dividing up working class people. Tabloid campaigns against EU immigrant labourers, for instance, from the offices of what are essentially billionaire-owned and plutocrat mouthpieces, defiintely bear some relation to this.
On the other hand, on some occasions, parts of the modern left are also doing the plutocrats' work for them. The insistent focus on statue issues rather than foodbanks in the Guardian, for instance, is very handy for ensuring the continuity of current working conditions, and discouraging cross-ethnic and cross-cultural working class activity.
All about priorities, I suppose.
I'd say the top level mission statement for the left should be that we work towards eradicating, within the constraints of democratic consent and personal liberty, inequalities of class, race, gender and sexuality.
These will usually go in tandem imo but sometimes there will be clashes. A measure to reduce class inequality, for example, might widen gender inequality.
So you need a hierarchy for when these clashes happen. Which is the more important? Race trumps class? The opposite? What about gender? What about LBGT?
And this is difficult. Class is probably the most important in terms of the size of the problem but the other things are about personal identity and therefore are more visceral and the inequalities thereof in a sense more egregious.
One thing is certain - if you get either the priorities wrong or the messaging wrong you end up with some quite bizarre alliances against you. Obvious example, Brexit, a project of the reactionary right delivered with the help of blue collar workers and the underclass.
This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.
The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.
Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!
The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.
I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.
Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.
Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today.
It’s one of the things I find most baffling about modern left wing politics, they rail against the free market in a lot of ways but seem to consider poor peoples labour fair game
It's a big issue and I pretty much share your take except for the race and immigration angle. For me, the notion that the boss class use this to divide the workers has much going for it. This sort of thing -
It's a very interesting political question. The modern identity politics of the right is, in part, a very clear and effective way of dividing up working class people. Tabloid campaigns against EU immigrant labourers, for instance, from the offices of what are essentially billionaire-owned and plutocrat mouthpieces, defiintely bear some relation to this.
On the other hand, on some occasions, parts of the modern left are also doing the plutocrats' work for them. The insistent focus on statue issues rather than foodbanks in the Guardian, for instance, is very handy for ensuring the continuity of current working conditions, and discouraging cross-ethnic and cross-cultural working class activity.
All about priorities, I suppose.
I'd say the top level mission statement for the left should be that we work towards eradicating, within the constraints of democratic consent and personal liberty, inequalities of class, race, gender and sexuality.
These will usually go in tandem imo but sometimes there will be clashes. A measure to reduce class inequality, for example, might widen gender inequality.
So you need a hierarchy for when these clashes happen. Which is the more important? Race trumps class? The opposite? What about gender? What about LBGT?
And this is difficult. Class is probably the most important in terms of the size of the problem but the other things are about personal identity and therefore are more visceral and the inequalities thereof in a sense more egregious.
One thing is certain - if you get either the priorities wrong or the messaging wrong you end up with some quite bizarre alliances against you. Obvious example, Brexit, a project of the reactionary right delivered with the help of blue collar workers and the underclass.
This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.
The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.
Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!
The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.
I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.
Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.
Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today....
The 70s was something of a disaster for unions and business alike, and such confrontations benefitted neither.
Union unrest had two sides - often awful, non-consultative and non-consensual management, and often tribal, non-discriminating and wilfully obstructive workers. The common denominator was class, and a key reason why countries like Germany were able to forge much better industrial relations.
Union power became too great, but arguably since then, against the long-term interests of the overall economy, as Piketty argues, and in Anglo-Saxon countries particularly, it's become too weak.
The fact that New Labour was not even prepared to consider German-style structures like workers on boards, and that, even more tellingly, Theresa May's government pretended to, before them throwing out, does suggest, as isam says, that we've gone much too far the other way.
Something which people aren't talking about is the amount of holiday which people at work will have been building up. I've taken really no days holiday this year so far, and still have well over 20 days to take.
I'm beginning to be pressured (as with everyone at my work) to consider taking them, but I don't really want to. Obviously some people have jumped at the chance of a summer holiday in Spain and the like on the basis that they 'have' to take holiday, and don;t want to just hang around at home (especially if you're working from home already!).
It's only going to get worse, and could be a big issue for lots of firms. I can already see I'm going to be very busy this year and could easilt run though my work to December without a good time for a break.
Of course i 'do' need a break, and will take at least a week soon, but then I still over 3 other weeks to take off.... for what?
Yes, we have a mild management style but the message has been gently communicated that it would be really nice if people took some days off now (especially as with Parliament in recess there is less lobbying going on) rather than saving it all up. Lots of people are taking long weekends just to add variety to the 5/2 routine, but nobody is taking a long break. It's one of the subtle problems that will rear its head later in the year.
Where I am, we were flat out told that we needed to use x amount of holiday by date y.
Pretty sensible - otherwise everyone would have taken the entire of December off.
We've agreed with our staff that they will not accumulate holidays whilst on furlough. It was a quid pro quo for keeping wages at 100%.
Been told we can carry 10 days over in to next leave year (starts Sept) - normally its 5. Trouble is I've got to find space to take 15 days off in the next five weeks, but also need to working...
This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.
The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.
Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!
The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.
I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.
Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.
Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today.
It’s one of the things I find most baffling about modern left wing politics, they rail against the free market in a lot of ways but seem to consider poor peoples labour fair game
It's a big issue and I pretty much share your take except for the race and immigration angle. For me, the notion that the boss class use this to divide the workers has much going for it. This sort of thing -
It's a very interesting political question. The modern identity politics of the right is, in part, a very clear and effective way of dividing up working class people. Tabloid campaigns against EU immigrant labourers, for instance, from the offices of what are essentially billionaire-owned and plutocrat mouthpieces, defiintely bear some relation to this.
On the other hand, on some occasions, parts of the modern left are also doing the plutocrats' work for them. The insistent focus on statue issues rather than foodbanks in the Guardian, for instance, is very handy for ensuring the continuity of current working conditions, and discouraging cross-ethnic and cross-cultural working class activity.
All about priorities, I suppose.
I'd say the top level mission statement for the left should be that we work towards eradicating, within the constraints of democratic consent and personal liberty, inequalities of class, race, gender and sexuality.
These will usually go in tandem imo but sometimes there will be clashes. A measure to reduce class inequality, for example, might widen gender inequality.
So you need a hierarchy for when these clashes happen. Which is the more important? Race trumps class? The opposite? What about gender? What about LBGT?
And this is difficult. Class is probably the most important in terms of the size of the problem but the other things are about personal identity and therefore are more visceral and the inequalities thereof in a sense more egregious.
One thing is certain - if you get either the priorities wrong or the messaging wrong you end up with some quite bizarre alliances against you. Obvious example, Brexit, a project of the reactionary right delivered with the help of blue collar workers and the underclass.
Question: does anyone know of an insurance company who would provide health insurance cover for a 2 week non-essential trip to Portugal EXCLUDING Covid-19 cover (so emergency + repatriation for accidents)? Eldest daughter wants to go with the boyfriend next week, and our family policy won't cover her due to the FCO advice at the moment.
Remember, your cover won’t count if you travel against official Government and FCO advice. So be sure before you go. Get the latest FCO advice on international travel here. Check the Government’s UK travel guidelines here. And find out what’s covered on our support page.
Johnson could not make a better job of making the coming economic cataclysm absolutely as bad as it possibly could be if he tried.
It really is a quite breathtaking example of cowardice, cravenness, vanity and incompetence.
I think you are going to be very, very wrong.
If the government hadn't done furlough etc then I'm quite confident the economic damage would have been much, much worse as countless healthy businesses would have gone to the wall.
Thanks to minimally intrusive measures like masks etc now, the economic damage will be really minimised going forwards.
All furlough as done is encourage extremely bad habits at vast expense.
We're at the point where the FT is reportingMPs are pleading with the government to 'order' firms to send workers back to their offices
I mean FFS. This is stalinist Russia stuff. They are that desperate.
And the results will be the same.
Any MP doing that should be ashamed of themselves. The government is rightly ignoring such idiocy.
A lot of MPs aren't particularly bright but I can see why they are saying it as it avoids explaining to companies that the world has changed and a lot of office based jobs are now (and for ever more will be) home-office based jobs.
Which is why a lot of cafes and other businesses located in what were office heavy areas are doomed, 10-20 years of forthcoming technology driven economic changes occurred overnight in March 2020.
This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.
The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.
Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!
The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.
I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.
Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.
Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today....
The 70s was something of a disaster for unions and business alike, and such confrontations benefitted neither.
Union unrest had two sides - often awful, non-consultative and non-consensual management, and often tribal, non-discriminating and wilfully obstructive workers. The common denominator was class, and a key reason why countries like Germany were able to forge much better industrial relations.
Union power became too great, but arguably since then, against the long-term interests of the overall economy, as Piketty argues, and in Anglo-Saxon countries particularly, it's become too weak.
The fact that New Labour was not even prepared to consider German-style structures like workers on boards, and that, even more tellingly, Theresa May's government pretended to, before them throwing out, does suggest, as isam says, that we've gone much too far the other way.
It was also about the toxic accumulation,ulation of strife in existing companies.
The new car factories in the UK which were built in the 80s seem to be much happier places all around.
I am sorry but who in their right mind thought it was a good idea to book overseas holidays this year after the virus had hit. Obviously I can understand beforehand as no one could have predicted this. But once we had been through the first wave, you have to be mad to book a holiday and not think it might all fall apart.
Are you angling for a new record number of PB 'likes', Richard?
This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.
The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.
Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!
The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.
I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.
Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.
Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today....
The 70s was something of a disaster for unions and business alike, and such confrontations benefitted neither.
Johnson could not make a better job of making the coming economic cataclysm absolutely as bad as it possibly could be if he tried.
It really is a quite breathtaking example of cowardice, cravenness, vanity and incompetence.
I think you are going to be very, very wrong.
If the government hadn't done furlough etc then I'm quite confident the economic damage would have been much, much worse as countless healthy businesses would have gone to the wall.
Thanks to minimally intrusive measures like masks etc now, the economic damage will be really minimised going forwards.
All furlough as done is encourage extremely bad habits at vast expense.
We're at the point where the FT is reportingMPs are pleading with the government to 'order' firms to send workers back to their offices
I mean FFS. This is stalinist Russia stuff. They are that desperate.
And the results will be the same.
Any MP doing that should be ashamed of themselves. The government is rightly ignoring such idiocy.
And at the same time they are happily supporting a regime which discourages people from using public transport, amongst other things.
Why are the MPs doing it, anyway? Pressure from property companies? There can't be that many votes in city centre business districts.
This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.
The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.
Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!
The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.
I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.
Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.
Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today.
It’s one of the things I find most baffling about modern left wing politics, they rail against the free market in a lot of ways but seem to consider poor peoples labour fair game
It's a big issue and I pretty much share your take except for the race and immigration angle. For me, the notion that the boss class use this to divide the workers has much going for it. This sort of thing -
It's a very interesting political question. The modern identity politics of the right is, in part, a very clear and effective way of dividing up working class people. Tabloid campaigns against EU immigrant labourers, for instance, from the offices of what are essentially billionaire-owned and plutocrat mouthpieces, defiintely bear some relation to this.
On the other hand, on some occasions, parts of the modern left are also doing the plutocrats' work for them. The insistent focus on statue issues rather than foodbanks in the Guardian, for instance, is very handy for ensuring the continuity of current working conditions, and discouraging cross-ethnic and cross-cultural working class activity.
I'd recommend Piers Wauchope's History of Camden Council, which sounds dull as ditchwater, but gives a very interesting account of how the local Labour developed between 1964 and 1986. It's a microcosm of how the Labour Party has continued to develop.
At the start of Camden Council, Labour was dominated by St. Pancras. St. Pancras' concerns were housing and employment rights. By 1986, it was dominated by Hampstead. Hampstead's concerns were women' issues, CND, and anti-apartheid.
This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.
The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.
Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!
The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.
I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.
Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.
Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today....
The 70s was something of a disaster for unions and business alike, and such confrontations benefitted neither.
Union unrest had two sides - often awful, non-consultative and non-consensual management, and often tribal, non-discriminating and wilfully obstructive workers. The common denominator was class, and a key reason why countries like Germany were able to forge much better industrial relations.
Union power became too great, but arguably since then, against the long-term interests of the overall economy, as Piketty argues, and in Anglo-Saxon countries particularly, it's become too weak.
The fact that New Labour was not even prepared to consider German-style structures like workers on boards, and that, even more tellingly, Theresa May's government pretended to, before them throwing out, does suggest, as isam says, that we've gone much too far the other way.
It was also about the toxic accumulation,ulation of strife in existing companies.
The new car factories in the UK which were built in the 80s seem to be much happier places all around.
You read up on some of the union vs BL strikes and wonder what the union had in mind. If the cars their members make when they can be bothered have horrendous build quality and you had a long wait as strikes crippled production, then closure of the factory / business and with it your job was always likely.
The idea that the government would keep siding with them over management to make shit cars in a shit way was at best a pipe dream.
I am sorry but who in their right mind thought it was a good idea to book overseas holidays this year after the virus had hit. Obviously I can understand beforehand as no one could have predicted this. But once we had been through the first wave, you have to be mad to book a holiday and not think it might all fall apart.
For some people holidays seem to be their main focus in life.
I know people who weren't concerned about the risks to health from covid or the risks to their jobs (though some certainly should have been) but never stopped talking about how their holiday plans were being disrupted.
As soon as lockdown ended they were looking to book new holidays.
Johnson could not make a better job of making the coming economic cataclysm absolutely as bad as it possibly could be if he tried.
It really is a quite breathtaking example of cowardice, cravenness, vanity and incompetence.
I think you are going to be very, very wrong.
If the government hadn't done furlough etc then I'm quite confident the economic damage would have been much, much worse as countless healthy businesses would have gone to the wall.
Thanks to minimally intrusive measures like masks etc now, the economic damage will be really minimised going forwards.
All furlough as done is encourage extremely bad habits at vast expense.
We're at the point where the FT is reportingMPs are pleading with the government to 'order' firms to send workers back to their offices
I mean FFS. This is stalinist Russia stuff. They are that desperate.
And the results will be the same.
Any MP doing that should be ashamed of themselves. The government is rightly ignoring such idiocy.
And at the same time they are happily supporting a regime which discourages people from using public transport, amongst other things.
Why are the MPs doing it, anyway? Pressure from property companies? There can't be that many votes in city centre business districts.
A very large number of businesses are going to go to the wall over this.
Lots of jobs lost.
Essentially a lot of retail spend is relocating (and has already done so), very, very sharply.
This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.
The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.
Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!
The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.
I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.
Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.
Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today....
The 70s was something of a disaster for unions and business alike, and such confrontations benefitted neither.
Union unrest had two sides - often awful, non-consultative and non-consensual management, and often tribal, non-discriminating and wilfully obstructive workers. The common denominator was class, and a key reason why countries like Germany were able to forge much better industrial relations.
Union power became too great, but arguably since then, against the long-term interests of the overall economy, as Piketty argues, and in Anglo-Saxon countries particularly, it's become too weak.
The fact that New Labour was not even prepared to consider German-style structures like workers on boards, and that, even more tellingly, Theresa May's government pretended to, before them throwing out, does suggest, as isam says, that we've gone much too far the other way.
Something which people aren't talking about is the amount of holiday which people at work will have been building up. I've taken really no days holiday this year so far, and still have well over 20 days to take.
I'm beginning to be pressured (as with everyone at my work) to consider taking them, but I don't really want to. Obviously some people have jumped at the chance of a summer holiday in Spain and the like on the basis that they 'have' to take holiday, and don;t want to just hang around at home (especially if you're working from home already!).
It's only going to get worse, and could be a big issue for lots of firms. I can already see I'm going to be very busy this year and could easilt run though my work to December without a good time for a break.
Of course i 'do' need a break, and will take at least a week soon, but then I still over 3 other weeks to take off.... for what?
Yes, we have a mild management style but the message has been gently communicated that it would be really nice if people took some days off now (especially as with Parliament in recess there is less lobbying going on) rather than saving it all up. Lots of people are taking long weekends just to add variety to the 5/2 routine, but nobody is taking a long break. It's one of the subtle problems that will rear its head later in the year.
Where I am, we were flat out told that we needed to use x amount of holiday by date y.
Pretty sensible - otherwise everyone would have taken the entire of December off.
I know I’m not going to get any sympathy for this (and indeed I’m not really asking for any) but I have never had a job where I got to pick my own holidays which means I have no idea how the process works. How much notice do you normally have to give?
This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.
The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.
Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!
The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.
I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.
Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.
Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today....
The 70s was something of a disaster for unions and business alike, and such confrontations benefitted neither.
Union unrest had two sides - often awful, non-consultative and non-consensual management, and often tribal, non-discriminating and wilfully obstructive workers. The common denominator was class, and a key reason why countries like Germany were able to forge much better industrial relations.
Union power became too great, but arguably since then, against the long-term interests of the overall economy, as Piketty argues, and in Anglo-Saxon countries particularly, it's become too weak.
The fact that New Labour was not even prepared to consider German-style structures like workers on boards, and that, even more tellingly, Theresa May's government pretended to, before them throwing out, does suggest, as isam says, that we've gone much too far the other way.
Johnson could not make a better job of making the coming economic cataclysm absolutely as bad as it possibly could be if he tried.
It really is a quite breathtaking example of cowardice, cravenness, vanity and incompetence.
I think you are going to be very, very wrong.
If the government hadn't done furlough etc then I'm quite confident the economic damage would have been much, much worse as countless healthy businesses would have gone to the wall.
Thanks to minimally intrusive measures like masks etc now, the economic damage will be really minimised going forwards.
All furlough as done is encourage extremely bad habits at vast expense.
We're at the point where the FT is reportingMPs are pleading with the government to 'order' firms to send workers back to their offices
I mean FFS. This is stalinist Russia stuff. They are that desperate.
And the results will be the same.
Any MP doing that should be ashamed of themselves. The government is rightly ignoring such idiocy.
And at the same time they are happily supporting a regime which discourages people from using public transport, amongst other things.
Why are the MPs doing it, anyway? Pressure from property companies? There can't be that many votes in city centre business districts.
A very large number of businesses are going to go to the wall over this.
Lots of jobs lost.
Essentially a lot of retail spend is relocating (and has already done so), very, very sharply.
Johnson could not make a better job of making the coming economic cataclysm absolutely as bad as it possibly could be if he tried.
It really is a quite breathtaking example of cowardice, cravenness, vanity and incompetence.
And breath...
Feel better now?
I am looking forward to the economic cataclysm. It is not often you get to "... live in interesting times"
When was the last time? Berlin Wall coming down - good news story, but uncertainty how the Russians would react still. Before that - the Cuban missile crisis?
Johnson could not make a better job of making the coming economic cataclysm absolutely as bad as it possibly could be if he tried.
It really is a quite breathtaking example of cowardice, cravenness, vanity and incompetence.
And breath...
Feel better now?
I am looking forward to the economic cataclysm. It is not often you get to "... live in interesting times"
When was the last time? Berlin Wall coming down - good news story, but uncertainty how the Russians would react still. Before that - the Cuban missile crisis?
Question: does anyone know of an insurance company who would provide health insurance cover for a 2 week non-essential trip to Portugal EXCLUDING Covid-19 cover (so emergency + repatriation for accidents)? Eldest daughter wants to go with the boyfriend next week, and our family policy won't cover her due to the FCO advice at the moment.
This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.
The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.
Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!
The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.
I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.
Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.
Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today....
The 70s was something of a disaster for unions and business alike, and such confrontations benefitted neither.
Union unrest had two sides - often awful, non-consultative and non-consensual management, and often tribal, non-discriminating and wilfully obstructive workers. The common denominator was class, and a key reason why countries like Germany were able to forge much better industrial relations.
Union power became too great, but arguably since then, against the long-term interests of the overall economy, as Piketty argues, and in Anglo-Saxon countries particularly, it's become too weak.
The fact that New Labour was not even prepared to consider German-style structures like workers on boards, and that, even more tellingly, Theresa May's government pretended to, before them throwing out, does suggest, as isam says, that we've gone much too far the other way.
Zero Hours Contracts should be outlawed
That's absolutely ridiculous! There's a definite time and a place for them.
Exclusive zero hour contracts were abusive and outlawed years ago.
This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.
The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.
Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!
The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.
I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.
Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.
Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today....
The 70s was something of a disaster for unions and business alike, and such confrontations benefitted neither.
Union unrest had two sides - often awful, non-consultative and non-consensual management, and often tribal, non-discriminating and wilfully obstructive workers. The common denominator was class, and a key reason why countries like Germany were able to forge much better industrial relations.
Union power became too great, but arguably since then, against the long-term interests of the overall economy, as Piketty argues, and in Anglo-Saxon countries particularly, it's become too weak.
The fact that New Labour was not even prepared to consider German-style structures like workers on boards, and that, even more tellingly, Theresa May's government pretended to, before them throwing out, does suggest, as isam says, that we've gone much too far the other way.
It was also about the toxic accumulation,ulation of strife in existing companies.
The new car factories in the UK which were built in the 80s seem to be much happier places all around.
You read up on some of the union vs BL strikes and wonder what the union had in mind. If the cars their members make when they can be bothered have horrendous build quality and you had a long wait as strikes crippled production, then closure of the factory / business and with it your job was always likely.
The idea that the government would keep siding with them over management to make shit cars in a shit way was at best a pipe dream.
One hypothesis that would explain it is an attempt by the Soviets to destabilise our industry, but I’m not sure there is any evidence for that.
This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.
The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.
Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!
The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.
I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.
Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.
Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today....
The 70s was something of a disaster for unions and business alike, and such confrontations benefitted neither.
Union unrest had two sides - often awful, non-consultative and non-consensual management, and often tribal, non-discriminating and wilfully obstructive workers. The common denominator was class, and a key reason why countries like Germany were able to forge much better industrial relations.
Union power became too great, but arguably since then, against the long-term interests of the overall economy, as Piketty argues, and in Anglo-Saxon countries particularly, it's become too weak.
The fact that New Labour was not even prepared to consider German-style structures like workers on boards, and that, even more tellingly, Theresa May's government pretended to, before them throwing out, does suggest, as isam says, that we've gone much too far the other way.
Zero Hours Contracts should be outlawed
That’s cover teaching stuffed then.
One solution I thought up was that ZHC could be used but the statutory minimum wage for those contracts should be higher than the regular statutory minimum wage.
Something which people aren't talking about is the amount of holiday which people at work will have been building up. I've taken really no days holiday this year so far, and still have well over 20 days to take.
I'm beginning to be pressured (as with everyone at my work) to consider taking them, but I don't really want to. Obviously some people have jumped at the chance of a summer holiday in Spain and the like on the basis that they 'have' to take holiday, and don;t want to just hang around at home (especially if you're working from home already!).
It's only going to get worse, and could be a big issue for lots of firms. I can already see I'm going to be very busy this year and could easilt run though my work to December without a good time for a break.
Of course i 'do' need a break, and will take at least a week soon, but then I still over 3 other weeks to take off.... for what?
Yes, we have a mild management style but the message has been gently communicated that it would be really nice if people took some days off now (especially as with Parliament in recess there is less lobbying going on) rather than saving it all up. Lots of people are taking long weekends just to add variety to the 5/2 routine, but nobody is taking a long break. It's one of the subtle problems that will rear its head later in the year.
Where I am, we were flat out told that we needed to use x amount of holiday by date y.
Pretty sensible - otherwise everyone would have taken the entire of December off.
I am doing my bit by going to Scotland for three weeks in August!
This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.
The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.
Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!
The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.
I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.
Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.
Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today....
The problem with the modern parties is that they have no policies founded on principles. All they have are policies founded on dog-whistling.
So, the Tories pander to the grey vote (because that is their base) and ignore the Millennials who, by and large, do not vote Tory.
Labour's policies have, until recently, been aimed squarely at the Marxist Revival with the usual dislocation from reality that is required.
The Lib Dems have their head wedged up where the sun does not shine. That leaves the fruit-cake parties and the ones that skate on the edge of legality and decency.
Anyone who is not a camp-follower therefore winds up having nothing to appeal to them and the resulting policy vacuum allows all sorts of egregious nonsense to happen because none of the politicians give a d*mn about anything outside their laser-focused-dog-whistle targets.
Johnson could not make a better job of making the coming economic cataclysm absolutely as bad as it possibly could be if he tried.
It really is a quite breathtaking example of cowardice, cravenness, vanity and incompetence.
And breath...
Feel better now?
I am looking forward to the economic cataclysm. It is not often you get to "... live in interesting times"
When was the last time? Berlin Wall coming down - good news story, but uncertainty how the Russians would react still. Before that - the Cuban missile crisis?
Something which people aren't talking about is the amount of holiday which people at work will have been building up. I've taken really no days holiday this year so far, and still have well over 20 days to take.
I'm beginning to be pressured (as with everyone at my work) to consider taking them, but I don't really want to. Obviously some people have jumped at the chance of a summer holiday in Spain and the like on the basis that they 'have' to take holiday, and don;t want to just hang around at home (especially if you're working from home already!).
It's only going to get worse, and could be a big issue for lots of firms. I can already see I'm going to be very busy this year and could easilt run though my work to December without a good time for a break.
Of course i 'do' need a break, and will take at least a week soon, but then I still over 3 other weeks to take off.... for what?
Yes, we have a mild management style but the message has been gently communicated that it would be really nice if people took some days off now (especially as with Parliament in recess there is less lobbying going on) rather than saving it all up. Lots of people are taking long weekends just to add variety to the 5/2 routine, but nobody is taking a long break. It's one of the subtle problems that will rear its head later in the year.
Where I am, we were flat out told that we needed to use x amount of holiday by date y.
Pretty sensible - otherwise everyone would have taken the entire of December off.
I am doing my bit by going to Scotland for three weeks in August!
The push from government to get people back to offices is absolutely doomed to failure. I can understand the desperation as the economic model especially for retail and town centre businesses is falling apart before our eyes.
Staff will return to offices, for some it may even be 5 days per week, but for many others the time spent in the offices will be a limited. I'm not aware of one senior director or CEO that I know who thinks the office will ever return to what it was. The office will be a place for creative interaction that can't yet be truly replicated virtually.
Employees are being asked how they see themselves working in future.Both internal company and external engagement with partners and customers is going mainly virtual. I know for ourselves, 90% of activity was carried out face to face with those we worked with. Every indication that post pandemic it will shift the other way. No-one sees themselves travelling hours for a meeting except in exceptional circumstances. No one is sad to be losing 5 days of the commute a week.
So the economic model and hospitality and service businesses will have to adapt and change location or their business model. City and town centres need radical rethinking and reshaping.
These are not forces that government can hold back like King Canute.
Time to think radical and build a society around a changing paradigm. The pandemic has advanced the home working or rather the work from anywhere revolution by 20 years in 5 months.
Question: does anyone know of an insurance company who would provide health insurance cover for a 2 week non-essential trip to Portugal EXCLUDING Covid-19 cover (so emergency + repatriation for accidents)? Eldest daughter wants to go with the boyfriend next week, and our family policy won't cover her due to the FCO advice at the moment.
This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.
The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.
Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!
The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.
I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.
Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.
Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today....
The 70s was something of a disaster for unions and business alike, and such confrontations benefitted neither.
Union unrest had two sides - often awful, non-consultative and non-consensual management, and often tribal, non-discriminating and wilfully obstructive workers. The common denominator was class, and a key reason why countries like Germany were able to forge much better industrial relations.
Union power became too great, but arguably since then, against the long-term interests of the overall economy, as Piketty argues, and in Anglo-Saxon countries particularly, it's become too weak.
The fact that New Labour was not even prepared to consider German-style structures like workers on boards, and that, even more tellingly, Theresa May's government pretended to, before them throwing out, does suggest, as isam says, that we've gone much too far the other way.
Zero Hours Contracts should be outlawed
That's absolutely ridiculous! There's a definite time and a place for them.
Exclusive zero hour contracts were abusive and outlawed years ago.
"Ban zero hours contracts - you are being Exploited by The Man" was one of the key indicators that Labour has lost their grip on how people live. Should we end exploitative contracts where people can be left on the hook day to day if they have work (or worse) - yes. Should we outlaw flexible contracts that so many people appreciate because life is complex? No.
I am sorry but who in their right mind thought it was a good idea to book overseas holidays this year after the virus had hit. Obviously I can understand beforehand as no one could have predicted this. But once we had been through the first wave, you have to be mad to book a holiday and not think it might all fall apart.
For some people holidays seem to be their main focus in life.
I know people who weren't concerned about the risks to health from covid or the risks to their jobs (though some certainly should have been) but never stopped talking about how their holiday plans were being disrupted.
As soon as lockdown ended they were looking to book new holidays.
Its called having a life!
Or... It's called escaping from the life you have.
This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.
The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.
Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!
The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.
I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.
Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.
Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today....
The 70s was something of a disaster for unions and business alike, and such confrontations benefitted neither.
Union unrest had two sides - often awful, non-consultative and non-consensual management, and often tribal, non-discriminating and wilfully obstructive workers. The common denominator was class, and a key reason why countries like Germany were able to forge much better industrial relations.
Union power became too great, but arguably since then, against the long-term interests of the overall economy, as Piketty argues, and in Anglo-Saxon countries particularly, it's become too weak.
The fact that New Labour was not even prepared to consider German-style structures like workers on boards, and that, even more tellingly, Theresa May's government pretended to, before them throwing out, does suggest, as isam says, that we've gone much too far the other way.
It was also about the toxic accumulation,ulation of strife in existing companies.
The new car factories in the UK which were built in the 80s seem to be much happier places all around.
You read up on some of the union vs BL strikes and wonder what the union had in mind. If the cars their members make when they can be bothered have horrendous build quality and you had a long wait as strikes crippled production, then closure of the factory / business and with it your job was always likely.
The idea that the government would keep siding with them over management to make shit cars in a shit way was at best a pipe dream.
One hypothesis that would explain it is an attempt by the Soviets to destabilise our industry, but I’m not sure there is any evidence for that.
Britain's persistently Victorian class relations of the 1950s to the 1970's were well able enough to do the job of self-harm themselves, I would say, once they'd had the external stimulus and shock to the system of the 60's culture revolution.
This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.
The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.
Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!
The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.
I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.
Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.
Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today.
It’s one of the things I find most baffling about modern left wing politics, they rail against the free market in a lot of ways but seem to consider poor peoples labour fair game
It's a big issue and I pretty much share your take except for the race and immigration angle. For me, the notion that the boss class use this to divide the workers has much going for it. This sort of thing -
It's a very interesting political question. The modern identity politics of the right is, in part, a very clear and effective way of dividing up working class people. Tabloid campaigns against EU immigrant labourers, for instance, from the offices of what are essentially billionaire-owned and plutocrat mouthpieces, defiintely bear some relation to this.
On the other hand, on some occasions, parts of the modern left are also doing the plutocrats' work for them. The insistent focus on statue issues rather than foodbanks in the Guardian, for instance, is very handy for ensuring the continuity of current working conditions, and discouraging cross-ethnic and cross-cultural working class activity.
I'd recommend Piers Wauchope's History of Camden Council, which sounds dull as ditchwater, but gives a very interesting account of how the local Labour developed between 1964 and 1986. It's a microcosm of how the Labour Party has continued to develop.
At the start of Camden Council, Labour was dominated by St. Pancras. St. Pancras' concerns were housing and employment rights. By 1986, it was dominated by Hampstead. Hampstead's concerns were women' issues, CND, and anti-apartheid.
Thanks, that sounds interesting. I was involved in Hampstead/Highgate Labour Party in the 1980s, and that sounds about right - especially the CND bit. Though they did a lot to fundraise for the miners during the strike. In 1983 they appointed a young leftie firebrand to contest the seat - name of John McDonnell. He lost (to a time-serving, hopeless Tory).
Johnson could not make a better job of making the coming economic cataclysm absolutely as bad as it possibly could be if he tried.
It really is a quite breathtaking example of cowardice, cravenness, vanity and incompetence.
I think you are going to be very, very wrong.
If the government hadn't done furlough etc then I'm quite confident the economic damage would have been much, much worse as countless healthy businesses would have gone to the wall.
Thanks to minimally intrusive measures like masks etc now, the economic damage will be really minimised going forwards.
All furlough as done is encourage extremely bad habits at vast expense.
We're at the point where the FT is reportingMPs are pleading with the government to 'order' firms to send workers back to their offices
I mean FFS. This is stalinist Russia stuff. They are that desperate.
And the results will be the same.
Why should companies have people working from offices if they can do the work just as well from home? My hope is that this is one effect of the virus which becomes permanent. A complete remodelling of work practices.
Especially since there is abundant evidence that many jobs are done much more productively from home, though obviously many others are not.
Johnson could not make a better job of making the coming economic cataclysm absolutely as bad as it possibly could be if he tried.
It really is a quite breathtaking example of cowardice, cravenness, vanity and incompetence.
And breath...
Feel better now?
I am looking forward to the economic cataclysm. It is not often you get to "... live in interesting times"
When was the last time? Berlin Wall coming down - good news story, but uncertainty how the Russians would react still. Before that - the Cuban missile crisis?
The period leading up to that with Solidarity in Poland was absolutely riveting. The other story I think totally gripped me was the Falklands war. The media were nothing like as pervasive as they are now and no internet of course but I was just obsessed with every detail.
Johnson could not make a better job of making the coming economic cataclysm absolutely as bad as it possibly could be if he tried.
It really is a quite breathtaking example of cowardice, cravenness, vanity and incompetence.
And breath...
Feel better now?
I am looking forward to the economic cataclysm. It is not often you get to "... live in interesting times"
When was the last time? Berlin Wall coming down - good news story, but uncertainty how the Russians would react still. Before that - the Cuban missile crisis?
9/11
I guess. I just never saw 9/11 as anything other than an opportunity for Bush to go kick the shit out of oil-rich countries. I never saw it as changing the way the world is.
Something which people aren't talking about is the amount of holiday which people at work will have been building up. I've taken really no days holiday this year so far, and still have well over 20 days to take.
I'm beginning to be pressured (as with everyone at my work) to consider taking them, but I don't really want to. Obviously some people have jumped at the chance of a summer holiday in Spain and the like on the basis that they 'have' to take holiday, and don;t want to just hang around at home (especially if you're working from home already!).
It's only going to get worse, and could be a big issue for lots of firms. I can already see I'm going to be very busy this year and could easilt run though my work to December without a good time for a break.
Of course i 'do' need a break, and will take at least a week soon, but then I still over 3 other weeks to take off.... for what?
Yes, we have a mild management style but the message has been gently communicated that it would be really nice if people took some days off now (especially as with Parliament in recess there is less lobbying going on) rather than saving it all up. Lots of people are taking long weekends just to add variety to the 5/2 routine, but nobody is taking a long break. It's one of the subtle problems that will rear its head later in the year.
Where I am, we were flat out told that we needed to use x amount of holiday by date y.
Pretty sensible - otherwise everyone would have taken the entire of December off.
I am doing my bit by going to Scotland for three weeks in August!
I'm doing my bit by being made redundant. Btw, we should remember that for many workers, being told when to take holiday was normal -- the factory would close for a fortnight and that was it. (ETA which is why the law allows companies to impose leave, as I suspect a few white collar workers will discover in the months to come.)
This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.
The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.
Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!
The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.
I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.
Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.
Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today.
It’s one of the things I find most baffling about modern left wing politics, they rail against the free market in a lot of ways but seem to consider poor peoples labour fair game
It's a big issue and I pretty much share your take except for the race and immigration angle. For me, the notion that the boss class use this to divide the workers has much going for it. This sort of thing -
It's a very interesting political question. The modern identity politics of the right is, in part, a very clear and effective way of dividing up working class people. Tabloid campaigns against EU immigrant labourers, for instance, from the offices of what are essentially billionaire-owned and plutocrat mouthpieces, defiintely bear some relation to this.
On the other hand, on some occasions, parts of the modern left are also doing the plutocrats' work for them. The insistent focus on statue issues rather than foodbanks in the Guardian, for instance, is very handy for ensuring the continuity of current working conditions, and discouraging cross-ethnic and cross-cultural working class activity.
All about priorities, I suppose.
I'd say the top level mission statement for the left should be that we work towards eradicating, within the constraints of democratic consent and personal liberty, inequalities of class, race, gender and sexuality.
These will usually go in tandem imo but sometimes there will be clashes. A measure to reduce class inequality, for example, might widen gender inequality.
So you need a hierarchy for when these clashes happen. Which is the more important? Race trumps class? The opposite? What about gender? What about LBGT?
And this is difficult. Class is probably the most important in terms of the size of the problem but the other things are about personal identity and therefore are more visceral and the inequalities thereof in a sense more egregious.
One thing is certain - if you get either the priorities wrong or the messaging wrong you end up with some quite bizarre alliances against you. Obvious example, Brexit, a project of the reactionary right delivered with the help of blue collar workers and the underclass.
Worth listening to when you have the time. He doesn't agree with Brexit ( or "Bregzit" as he pronounces it) being "a project of the reactionary right delivered with the help of blue collar workers and the underclass" - he thinks the Freedom of Movement is Capitalism's greatest trick, and I agree!
This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.
The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.
Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!
The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.
I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.
Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.
Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today....
The 70s was something of a disaster for unions and business alike, and such confrontations benefitted neither.
Union unrest had two sides - often awful, non-consultative and non-consensual management, and often tribal, non-discriminating and wilfully obstructive workers. The common denominator was class, and a key reason why countries like Germany were able to forge much better industrial relations.
Union power became too great, but arguably since then, against the long-term interests of the overall economy, as Piketty argues, and in Anglo-Saxon countries particularly, it's become too weak.
The fact that New Labour was not even prepared to consider German-style structures like workers on boards, and that, even more tellingly, Theresa May's government pretended to, before them throwing out, does suggest, as isam says, that we've gone much too far the other way.
It was also about the toxic accumulation,ulation of strife in existing companies.
The new car factories in the UK which were built in the 80s seem to be much happier places all around.
You read up on some of the union vs BL strikes and wonder what the union had in mind. If the cars their members make when they can be bothered have horrendous build quality and you had a long wait as strikes crippled production, then closure of the factory / business and with it your job was always likely.
The idea that the government would keep siding with them over management to make shit cars in a shit way was at best a pipe dream.
One hypothesis that would explain it is an attempt by the Soviets to destabilise our industry, but I’m not sure there is any evidence for that.
Britain's still-Victorian class relations of the 1960's and 70's were well able enough to do the job of self-harm themselves, I would say.
Never ascribe to malevolence what can be explained by incompetence you mean?
This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.
The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.
Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!
The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.
I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.
Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.
Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today....
The 70s was something of a disaster for unions and business alike, and such confrontations benefitted neither.
Union unrest had two sides - often awful, non-consultative and non-consensual management, and often tribal, non-discriminating and wilfully obstructive workers. The common denominator was class, and a key reason why countries like Germany were able to forge much better industrial relations.
Union power became too great, but arguably since then, against the long-term interests of the overall economy, as Piketty argues, and in Anglo-Saxon countries particularly, it's become too weak.
The fact that New Labour was not even prepared to consider German-style structures like workers on boards, and that, even more tellingly, Theresa May's government pretended to, before them throwing out, does suggest, as isam says, that we've gone much too far the other way.
I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that. But German industrial policy is about much more than workers on boards, and evolving those kinds of structures is perhaps as much, or more about culture as it is about legislation. As as has been pointed out recently, Germany seems to be a pretty unequal society, at least in terms of wealth, too.
Johnson could not make a better job of making the coming economic cataclysm absolutely as bad as it possibly could be if he tried.
It really is a quite breathtaking example of cowardice, cravenness, vanity and incompetence.
And breath...
Feel better now?
I am looking forward to the economic cataclysm. It is not often you get to "... live in interesting times"
When was the last time? Berlin Wall coming down - good news story, but uncertainty how the Russians would react still. Before that - the Cuban missile crisis?
I think the 9/11 attacks on New York etc. were pretty seismic and influential.
Something which people aren't talking about is the amount of holiday which people at work will have been building up. I've taken really no days holiday this year so far, and still have well over 20 days to take.
I'm beginning to be pressured (as with everyone at my work) to consider taking them, but I don't really want to. Obviously some people have jumped at the chance of a summer holiday in Spain and the like on the basis that they 'have' to take holiday, and don;t want to just hang around at home (especially if you're working from home already!).
It's only going to get worse, and could be a big issue for lots of firms. I can already see I'm going to be very busy this year and could easilt run though my work to December without a good time for a break.
Of course i 'do' need a break, and will take at least a week soon, but then I still over 3 other weeks to take off.... for what?
Yes, we have a mild management style but the message has been gently communicated that it would be really nice if people took some days off now (especially as with Parliament in recess there is less lobbying going on) rather than saving it all up. Lots of people are taking long weekends just to add variety to the 5/2 routine, but nobody is taking a long break. It's one of the subtle problems that will rear its head later in the year.
Where I am, we were flat out told that we needed to use x amount of holiday by date y.
Pretty sensible - otherwise everyone would have taken the entire of December off.
I am doing my bit by going to Scotland for three weeks in August!
Don't tell Nicola!
I checked with all the air BnB hosts that we would get a refund of the pox-ridden English were banned. It looks like we will be ok.
This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.
The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.
Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!
The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.
I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.
Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.
Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today....
The 70s was something of a disaster for unions and business alike, and such confrontations benefitted neither.
Union unrest had two sides - often awful, non-consultative and non-consensual management, and often tribal, non-discriminating and wilfully obstructive workers. The common denominator was class, and a key reason why countries like Germany were able to forge much better industrial relations.
Union power became too great, but arguably since then, against the long-term interests of the overall economy, as Piketty argues, and in Anglo-Saxon countries particularly, it's become too weak.
The fact that New Labour was not even prepared to consider German-style structures like workers on boards, and that, even more tellingly, Theresa May's government pretended to, before them throwing out, does suggest, as isam says, that we've gone much too far the other way.
It was also about the toxic accumulation,ulation of strife in existing companies.
The new car factories in the UK which were built in the 80s seem to be much happier places all around.
You read up on some of the union vs BL strikes and wonder what the union had in mind. If the cars their members make when they can be bothered have horrendous build quality and you had a long wait as strikes crippled production, then closure of the factory / business and with it your job was always likely.
The idea that the government would keep siding with them over management to make shit cars in a shit way was at best a pipe dream.
One hypothesis that would explain it is an attempt by the Soviets to destabilise our industry, but I’m not sure there is any evidence for that.
Britain's still-Victorian class relations of the 1960's and 70's were well able enough to do the job of self-harm themselves, I would say.
Never ascribe to malevolence what can be explained by incompetence you mean?
Johnson could not make a better job of making the coming economic cataclysm absolutely as bad as it possibly could be if he tried.
It really is a quite breathtaking example of cowardice, cravenness, vanity and incompetence.
And breath...
Feel better now?
I am looking forward to the economic cataclysm. It is not often you get to "... live in interesting times"
When was the last time? Berlin Wall coming down - good news story, but uncertainty how the Russians would react still. Before that - the Cuban missile crisis?
I was in nappies during the Cuban Missile Crisis so I missed that one as playing with my spinning-top was a bigger concern.
The Berlin Wall and 911 were more like "events" - they happened elsewhere and were over with quickly even though they had longer lasting aftermaths.
I guess that Covid would qualify as it has had a direct effect on me and those I know, is prolonged and the outcome is not clear. If you where to combine Covid, No-Deal Brexit and economic mismanagement as a prolonged 5 to 10 year thing then I think we have covered all the bases.
Johnson could not make a better job of making the coming economic cataclysm absolutely as bad as it possibly could be if he tried.
It really is a quite breathtaking example of cowardice, cravenness, vanity and incompetence.
And breath...
Feel better now?
I am looking forward to the economic cataclysm. It is not often you get to "... live in interesting times"
When was the last time? Berlin Wall coming down - good news story, but uncertainty how the Russians would react still. Before that - the Cuban missile crisis?
9/11
I guess. I just never saw 9/11 as anything other than an opportunity for Bush to go kick the shit out of oil-rich countries. I never saw it as changing the way the world is.
There are plenty of people in bombed out countries who beg to disagree. And it changed the nature of travel. And lit the fuse that pushed immigration to the top of the agenda in much of Europe. Set in train an utterly self-defeating war on terror, in the quite literal sense that we have fuelled precisely that which we were trying to defeat. The increasingly glaring failure of which led to America turning away from intervention on the world stage - a rare commonality between the Obama and Trump administrations, if played out in very different ways. I am sure someone cleverer than me could draw out the thread that led from 9/11 to Trump.
Something which people aren't talking about is the amount of holiday which people at work will have been building up. I've taken really no days holiday this year so far, and still have well over 20 days to take.
I'm beginning to be pressured (as with everyone at my work) to consider taking them, but I don't really want to. Obviously some people have jumped at the chance of a summer holiday in Spain and the like on the basis that they 'have' to take holiday, and don;t want to just hang around at home (especially if you're working from home already!).
It's only going to get worse, and could be a big issue for lots of firms. I can already see I'm going to be very busy this year and could easilt run though my work to December without a good time for a break.
Of course i 'do' need a break, and will take at least a week soon, but then I still over 3 other weeks to take off.... for what?
Yes, we have a mild management style but the message has been gently communicated that it would be really nice if people took some days off now (especially as with Parliament in recess there is less lobbying going on) rather than saving it all up. Lots of people are taking long weekends just to add variety to the 5/2 routine, but nobody is taking a long break. It's one of the subtle problems that will rear its head later in the year.
Where I am, we were flat out told that we needed to use x amount of holiday by date y.
Pretty sensible - otherwise everyone would have taken the entire of December off.
I am doing my bit by going to Scotland for three weeks in August!
I'm doing my bit by being made redundant. Btw, we should remember that for many workers, being told when to take holiday was normal -- the factory would close for a fortnight and that was it. (ETA which is why the law allows companies to impose leave, as I suspect a few white collar workers will discover in the months to come.)
Sorry to hear it. Bring made redundant is not a great feeling. Things turned out ok when it happened to me, but it was scary for a while and I imagine might be more so now. Good luck!
This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.
The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.
Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!
The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.
I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.
Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.
Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today....
The 70s was something of a disaster for unions and business alike, and such confrontations benefitted neither.
Union unrest had two sides - often awful, non-consultative and non-consensual management, and often tribal, non-discriminating and wilfully obstructive workers. The common denominator was class, and a key reason why countries like Germany were able to forge much better industrial relations.
Union power became too great, but arguably since then, against the long-term interests of the overall economy, as Piketty argues, and in Anglo-Saxon countries particularly, it's become too weak.
The fact that New Labour was not even prepared to consider German-style structures like workers on boards, and that, even more tellingly, Theresa May's government pretended to, before them throwing out, does suggest, as isam says, that we've gone much too far the other way.
Zero Hours Contracts should be outlawed
That’s cover teaching stuffed then.
One solution I thought up was that ZHC could be used but the statutory minimum wage for those contracts should be higher than the regular statutory minimum wage.
That would work and make it clear that the worker's taxes, EE's and ER's get paid by the agency.
The push from government to get people back to offices is absolutely doomed to failure. I can understand the desperation as the economic model especially for retail and town centre businesses is falling apart before our eyes.
Staff will return to offices, for some it may even be 5 days per week, but for many others the time spent in the offices will be a limited. I'm not aware of one senior director or CEO that I know who thinks the office will ever return to what it was. The office will be a place for creative interaction that can't yet be truly replicated virtually.
Employees are being asked how they see themselves working in future.Both internal company and external engagement with partners and customers is going mainly virtual. I know for ourselves, 90% of activity was carried out face to face with those we worked with. Every indication that post pandemic it will shift the other way. No-one sees themselves travelling hours for a meeting except in exceptional circumstances. No one is sad to be losing 5 days of the commute a week.
So the economic model and hospitality and service businesses will have to adapt and change location or their business model. City and town centres need radical rethinking and reshaping.
These are not forces that government can hold back like King Canute.
Time to think radical and build a society around a changing paradigm. The pandemic has advanced the home working or rather the work from anywhere revolution by 20 years in 5 months.
A massive culture change if you're right. The end of a whole way of working.
This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.
The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.
Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!
The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.
I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.
Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.
Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today....
The 70s was something of a disaster for unions and business alike, and such confrontations benefitted neither.
Union unrest had two sides - often awful, non-consultative and non-consensual management, and often tribal, non-discriminating and wilfully obstructive workers. The common denominator was class, and a key reason why countries like Germany were able to forge much better industrial relations.
Union power became too great, but arguably since then, against the long-term interests of the overall economy, as Piketty argues, and in Anglo-Saxon countries particularly, it's become too weak.
The fact that New Labour was not even prepared to consider German-style structures like workers on boards, and that, even more tellingly, Theresa May's government pretended to, before them throwing out, does suggest, as isam says, that we've gone much too far the other way.
Zero Hours Contracts should be outlawed
That's absolutely ridiculous! There's a definite time and a place for them.
Exclusive zero hour contracts were abusive and outlawed years ago.
"Ban zero hours contracts - you are being Exploited by The Man" was one of the key indicators that Labour has lost their grip on how people live. Should we end exploitative contracts where people can be left on the hook day to day if they have work (or worse) - yes. Should we outlaw flexible contracts that so many people appreciate because life is complex? No.
Mrs Foxy is on ZHC and happy with it, but we do have my salary as baseline.
I would suggest that anyone working more than a few months on a ZHC should be given the right to switch to a fixed hours contract if they choose to do so.
There is a big difference to being on a ZHC where the employee chooses the hours, to one where the boss does.
FT: "Swedish companies reap benefits of country’s Covid-19 approach" Better than expected numbers suggests no-lockdown strategy helped business
and
Telegraph: "Spain's experience shows that Sweden's Covid approach could have been right all along" At the end of this we may well conclude that countries which attempted total suppression of the virus killed their economies for zero gain
Johnson could not make a better job of making the coming economic cataclysm absolutely as bad as it possibly could be if he tried.
It really is a quite breathtaking example of cowardice, cravenness, vanity and incompetence.
And breath...
Feel better now?
I am looking forward to the economic cataclysm. It is not often you get to "... live in interesting times"
When was the last time? Berlin Wall coming down - good news story, but uncertainty how the Russians would react still. Before that - the Cuban missile crisis?
I was in nappies during the Cuban Missile Crisis so I missed that one as playing with my spinning-top was a bigger concern.
The Berlin Wall and 911 were more like "events" - they happened elsewhere and were over with quickly even though they had longer lasting aftermaths.
I guess that Covid would qualify as it has had a direct effect on me and those I know, is prolonged and the outcome is not clear. If you where to combine Covid, No-Deal Brexit and economic mismanagement as a prolonged 5 to 10 year thing then I think we have covered all the bases.
Agree that this has hit home more than any event in my lifetime.
This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.
The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.
Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!
The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.
I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.
Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.
Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today....
The 70s was something of a disaster for unions and business alike, and such confrontations benefitted neither.
Union unrest had two sides - often awful, non-consultative and non-consensual management, and often tribal, non-discriminating and wilfully obstructive workers. The common denominator was class, and a key reason why countries like Germany were able to forge much better industrial relations.
Union power became too great, but arguably since then, against the long-term interests of the overall economy, as Piketty argues, and in Anglo-Saxon countries particularly, it's become too weak.
The fact that New Labour was not even prepared to consider German-style structures like workers on boards, and that, even more tellingly, Theresa May's government pretended to, before them throwing out, does suggest, as isam says, that we've gone much too far the other way.
Zero Hours Contracts should be outlawed
That's absolutely ridiculous! There's a definite time and a place for them.
Exclusive zero hour contracts were abusive and outlawed years ago.
I got my break in my current career on a zero hours contract - local uni needed a programmer to rewrite their tools/develop new ones as needed, I was between PhD submission and viva (PhD in different field, but I'd picked up the coding/modelling skills they required), reluctant to go too far having just met my (now) wife and had a consultancy contract on an EU research project and some freelance writing work. It was ideal for me, the uni actually were very good and guaranteed me (not in writing, but they stuck to it) minimum 21 hours per week and after 9 months or so, with funding I helped to secure, it led to a conventional full-time position. I'm no longer at the same university, but 7 years into a job at another university where I wouldn't have even got to interview without that experience (I'd have likely been in my PhD field still, which would be no disaster, but I much prefer what I do now).
So, it worked for me and, without being zero hours, they'd never have been able to provide the work - they essentially didn't have any money, the university would not have allowed them to advertise a fixed hours post without them having a pot of money to cover it because of the liabilities that would have entailed. In principle, I tend to be against zero hours contracts in most places they were used but, for me, they were a very positive thing (I accept that I was atypical, pay was in the £30k FTE range and I had other income from the contracting work, no dependents, no mortgage etc).
There is a place for zero hours, but they're also potentially abusive. I'm not sure what the solution is or whether there necessarily is one.
This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.
The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.
Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!
The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.
I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.
Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.
Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today....
The 70s was something of a disaster for unions and business alike, and such confrontations benefitted neither.
Union unrest had two sides - often awful, non-consultative and non-consensual management, and often tribal, non-discriminating and wilfully obstructive workers. The common denominator was class, and a key reason why countries like Germany were able to forge much better industrial relations.
Union power became too great, but arguably since then, against the long-term interests of the overall economy, as Piketty argues, and in Anglo-Saxon countries particularly, it's become too weak.
The fact that New Labour was not even prepared to consider German-style structures like workers on boards, and that, even more tellingly, Theresa May's government pretended to, before them throwing out, does suggest, as isam says, that we've gone much too far the other way.
It was also about the toxic accumulation,ulation of strife in existing companies.
The new car factories in the UK which were built in the 80s seem to be much happier places all around.
You read up on some of the union vs BL strikes and wonder what the union had in mind. If the cars their members make when they can be bothered have horrendous build quality and you had a long wait as strikes crippled production, then closure of the factory / business and with it your job was always likely.
The idea that the government would keep siding with them over management to make shit cars in a shit way was at best a pipe dream.
As a young teen, even I could see the flaw in the logic of "... do what we say or we will force this company out of business to protect the jobs of its employees"
This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.
The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.
Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!
The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.
I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.
Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.
Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today.
It’s one of the things I find most baffling about modern left wing politics, they rail against the free market in a lot of ways but seem to consider poor peoples labour fair game
It's a big issue and I pretty much share your take except for the race and immigration angle. For me, the notion that the boss class use this to divide the workers has much going for it. This sort of thing -
It's a very interesting political question. The modern identity politics of the right is, in part, a very clear and effective way of dividing up working class people. Tabloid campaigns against EU immigrant labourers, for instance, from the offices of what are essentially billionaire-owned and plutocrat mouthpieces, defiintely bear some relation to this.
On the other hand, on some occasions, parts of the modern left are also doing the plutocrats' work for them. The insistent focus on statue issues rather than foodbanks in the Guardian, for instance, is very handy for ensuring the continuity of current working conditions, and discouraging cross-ethnic and cross-cultural working class activity.
I'd recommend Piers Wauchope's History of Camden Council, which sounds dull as ditchwater, but gives a very interesting account of how the local Labour developed between 1964 and 1986. It's a microcosm of how the Labour Party has continued to develop.
At the start of Camden Council, Labour was dominated by St. Pancras. St. Pancras' concerns were housing and employment rights. By 1986, it was dominated by Hampstead. Hampstead's concerns were women' issues, CND, and anti-apartheid.
Thanks, that sounds interesting. I was involved in Hampstead/Highgate Labour Party in the 1980s, and that sounds about right - especially the CND bit. Though they did a lot to fundraise for the miners during the strike. In 1983 they appointed a young leftie firebrand to contest the seat - name of John McDonnell. He lost (to a time-serving, hopeless Tory).
Yes, I remember McDonnell from those days, the subject of some ‘jobs for the boys’ episode on Camden council. My first foray into local politics was as a candidate in a no-hope seat in Camden in 1986, and I also did my bit to get the first ever LibDem elected to the council (and she’s still there).
Johnson could not make a better job of making the coming economic cataclysm absolutely as bad as it possibly could be if he tried.
It really is a quite breathtaking example of cowardice, cravenness, vanity and incompetence.
And breath...
Feel better now?
I am looking forward to the economic cataclysm. It is not often you get to "... live in interesting times"
When was the last time? Berlin Wall coming down - good news story, but uncertainty how the Russians would react still. Before that - the Cuban missile crisis?
The period leading up to that with Solidarity in Poland was absolutely riveting. The other story I think totally gripped me was the Falklands war. The media were nothing like as pervasive as they are now and no internet of course but I was just obsessed with every detail.
Agree that this has hit home more than any event in my lifetime.
Covid is strange because it is a deadly virus but it isn't a deadly virus for most people so the overall reaction is understandable and also, as we are seeing from da yoof on tour, ignorable. Certainly the measures taken, lockdown, etc are once in a lifetime events. But walking around it doesn't feel as though we are in mortal danger. Whether rightly or wrongly.
For me IIRC just before Gulf 1 there was a time when it was thought that Iran and Iraq would come together to fight the infidel, thus occasioning a literal clash of civilisations. A cultural war, but a hot one, not just one conducted in the Graun Opinion section.
This is a perfect example of what was wrong with Britain in the early 70s. Trade Unions dictating to the govt and the Courts and threatening to bring the country to its knees.
The "Pentonville Five" were locked up for breaking the law.
Of course I am serious, I mean really, yes I am!
The Labour Party went from supporting this kind of action, to importing hundreds of thousands of people to undercut the wages of the people on marches like this.
I remember this stuff from the 70s. The Labour Party was full of the then equivalent of Corbynites (anti-semitism would not matter back then) and the "Loony Left". It was unworkable. You could get nothing done because of strike disruption and when you did get it done, it was overpriced and under-spec and usually shoddily made.
Modern Labour may have gone too far, but that does not excuse the near Marxist Labour from back then.
Before my time, and I take your point that overarching Trade Unions can be more of an overall hindrance than a help, but my feeling, that you seem to sympathise with, is that Modern Labour threw the baby out with the bathwater. The majority of people on the march were probably not Loony left, Corbynite anti semites but working class people who wanted job security, same as most poorly paid people today.
It’s one of the things I find most baffling about modern left wing politics, they rail against the free market in a lot of ways but seem to consider poor peoples labour fair game
It's a big issue and I pretty much share your take except for the race and immigration angle. For me, the notion that the boss class use this to divide the workers has much going for it. This sort of thing -
It's a very interesting political question. The modern identity politics of the right is, in part, a very clear and effective way of dividing up working class people. Tabloid campaigns against EU immigrant labourers, for instance, from the offices of what are essentially billionaire-owned and plutocrat mouthpieces, defiintely bear some relation to this.
On the other hand, on some occasions, parts of the modern left are also doing the plutocrats' work for them. The insistent focus on statue issues rather than foodbanks in the Guardian, for instance, is very handy for ensuring the continuity of current working conditions, and discouraging cross-ethnic and cross-cultural working class activity.
I'd recommend Piers Wauchope's History of Camden Council, which sounds dull as ditchwater, but gives a very interesting account of how the local Labour developed between 1964 and 1986. It's a microcosm of how the Labour Party has continued to develop.
At the start of Camden Council, Labour was dominated by St. Pancras. St. Pancras' concerns were housing and employment rights. By 1986, it was dominated by Hampstead. Hampstead's concerns were women' issues, CND, and anti-apartheid.
Thanks, that sounds interesting. I was involved in Hampstead/Highgate Labour Party in the 1980s, and that sounds about right - especially the CND bit. Though they did a lot to fundraise for the miners during the strike. In 1983 they appointed a young leftie firebrand to contest the seat - name of John McDonnell. He lost (to a time-serving, hopeless Tory).
Yes, I remember McDonnell from those days, the subject of some ‘jobs for the boys’ episode on Camden council. My first foray into local politics was as a candidate in a no-hope seat in Camden in 1986, and I also did my bit to get the first ever LibDem elected to the council (and she’s still there).
Interesting - Orwell warned, in his afterword to Wigan Pier (IIRC) that the socialist movement needed to stay relevant to the working class. And not go off chasing the goals of middle class intellectuals....
FT: "Swedish companies reap benefits of country’s Covid-19 approach" Better than expected numbers suggests no-lockdown strategy helped business
and
Telegraph: "Spain's experience shows that Sweden's Covid approach could have been right all along" At the end of this we may well conclude that countries which attempted total suppression of the virus killed their economies for zero gain
And they didn't close their schools so they haven't got a cohort of badly educated, socially-traumatised kids.
I guess we cannot presume that all Bernie's supporters will back Biden come November. Bernie's former Co-Chair, Nina Turner, described the choice between Trump and Biden as 'You have a bowl of sh1t in front of you, and all you've got to do is eat half of it instead of the whole thing.'
Agree that this has hit home more than any event in my lifetime.
Covid is strange because it is a deadly virus but it isn't a deadly virus for most people so the overall reaction is understandable and also, as we are seeing from da yoof on tour, ignorable. Certainly the measures taken, lockdown, etc are once in a lifetime events. But walking around it doesn't feel as though we are in mortal danger. Whether rightly or wrongly.
For me IIRC just before Gulf 1 there was a time when it was thought that Iran and Iraq would come together to fight the infidel, thus occasioning a literal clash of civilisations. A cultural war, but a hot one, not just one conducted in the Graun Opinion section.
Covid 19 is the biggest event of my lifetime. We aren't even halfway through and it is transforming the world.
Inter alia, it will mark the decisive moment when supreme power passed from the West to the East.
Johnson could not make a better job of making the coming economic cataclysm absolutely as bad as it possibly could be if he tried.
It really is a quite breathtaking example of cowardice, cravenness, vanity and incompetence.
I think you are going to be very, very wrong.
If the government hadn't done furlough etc then I'm quite confident the economic damage would have been much, much worse as countless healthy businesses would have gone to the wall.
Thanks to minimally intrusive measures like masks etc now, the economic damage will be really minimised going forwards.
All furlough as done is encourage extremely bad habits at vast expense.
We're at the point where the FT is reportingMPs are pleading with the government to 'order' firms to send workers back to their offices
I mean FFS. This is stalinist Russia stuff. They are that desperate.
And the results will be the same.
If this really was Stalinist Russia stuff people like you would have been sent to the gulags a long time ago.
He’d be away in the far east, digging a canal to Norwich with his bare hands and a small shovel.
I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that. But German industrial policy is about much more than workers on boards, and evolving those kinds of structures is perhaps as much, or more about culture as it is about legislation. As as has been pointed out recently, Germany seems to be a pretty unequal society, at least in terms of wealth, too.
Yes, I think also German society tends to be much more consensus based and worried about taking extreme positions, for obvious historical reasons. Whereas we have a much more adversarial Kultur.
I guess we cannot presume that all Bernie's supporters will back Biden come November. Bernie's former Co-Chair, Nina Turner, described the choice between Trump and Biden as 'You have a bowl of sh1t in front of you, and all you've got to do is eat half of it instead of the whole thing.'
Voting for neither would be equivalent to eating 3/4 of it, so you're still better off eating 1/2 of it.
Agree that this has hit home more than any event in my lifetime.
Covid is strange because it is a deadly virus but it isn't a deadly virus for most people so the overall reaction is understandable and also, as we are seeing from da yoof on tour, ignorable. Certainly the measures taken, lockdown, etc are once in a lifetime events. But walking around it doesn't feel as though we are in mortal danger. Whether rightly or wrongly.
For me IIRC just before Gulf 1 there was a time when it was thought that Iran and Iraq would come together to fight the infidel, thus occasioning a literal clash of civilisations. A cultural war, but a hot one, not just one conducted in the Graun Opinion section.
Covid 19 is the biggest event of my lifetime. We aren't even halfway through and it is transforming the world.
Inter alia, it will mark the decisive moment when supreme power passed from the West to the East.
Not quite, but I suspect it will be the reference pointed use in the same way that the US is regarded to have replaced the UK as the leading power between 1939 and 1945 when in reality it was probably some time in the 1920's / 30's..
Comments
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/hydrogen-champion-hyundai-races-electric-020141822.html
...Hyundai could also face a roadblock from its powerful union, which is worried about job security as EVs require fewer components and workers than gasoline vehicles; at Hyundai, this is partly because the automaker makes a number of key components for conventional cars in-house, while many EV parts are outsourced at present.
The union is pushing for the company to assemble key EV components, like battery packs and motors, in-house to offset any reduction in workforce.
"We are not opposed to EV business. Kodak went bankrupt because it stuck to film even as the industry was shifting to digital photography," union spokesman Kwon Oh-kook told Reuters.
"We just want to protect the jobs of our members," he said....
On the other hand, on some occasions, parts of the modern left are also doing the plutocrats' work for them. The insistent focus on statue issues rather than foodbanks in the Guardian, for instance, is very handy for ensuring the continuity of current working conditions, and discouraging cross-ethnic and cross-cultural working class activity.
We're at the point where the FT is reportingMPs are pleading with the government to 'order' firms to send workers back to their offices
I mean FFS. This is stalinist Russia stuff. They are that desperate.
And the results will be the same.
Feel better now?
Man City vs Real Madrid in serious doubt after positive Covid-19 test - reports
The Champions League last 16 game is in jeopardy after Spanish sources say the La Liga giants have a player self-isolating
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/breaking-real-madrid-player-covid-18675532
Just void this Champions League and have the incumbent winners hold it for another season, job done.
I hope he doesn't capitulate under media and opposition pressure.
Which is why a lot of cafes and other businesses located in what were office heavy areas are doomed, 10-20 years of forthcoming technology driven economic changes occurred overnight in March 2020.
https://www.postoffice.co.uk/travel-insurance/single-trip
Why does she feel the need to go to Portugal? Can’t she see, it’s as you put it, stupid?
I know people who weren't concerned about the risks to health from covid or the risks to their jobs (though some certainly should have been) but never stopped talking about how their holiday plans were being disrupted.
As soon as lockdown ended they were looking to book new holidays.
The dock strikes were pretty futile in the end (though they did get government to subsidise the jobs of workers holding otherwise redundant positions for a decade or two).
Containerisation in the late 60s/early 70s dramatically and unavoidably reduced the need for dock labour:
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/businessreview/2017/11/10/dockworkers-and-the-introduction-of-containers-in-uk-shipping-in-the-late-1960s/
I'd say the top level mission statement for the left should be that we work towards eradicating, within the constraints of democratic consent and personal liberty, inequalities of class, race, gender and sexuality.
These will usually go in tandem imo but sometimes there will be clashes. A measure to reduce class inequality, for example, might widen gender inequality.
So you need a hierarchy for when these clashes happen. Which is the more important? Race trumps class? The opposite? What about gender? What about LBGT?
And this is difficult. Class is probably the most important in terms of the size of the problem but the other things are about personal identity and therefore are more visceral and the inequalities thereof in a sense more egregious.
One thing is certain - if you get either the priorities wrong or the messaging wrong you end up with some quite bizarre alliances against you. Obvious example, Brexit, a project of the reactionary right delivered with the help of blue collar workers and the underclass.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pa5vsa1FLKY
Union power became too great, but arguably since then, against the long-term interests of the overall economy, as Piketty argues, and in Anglo-Saxon countries particularly, it's become too weak.
The fact that New Labour was not even prepared to consider German-style structures like workers on boards, and that, even more tellingly, Theresa May's government pretended to, before them throwing out, does suggest, as isam says, that we've gone much too far the other way.
Is he pretty much agreeing with me?
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The new car factories in the UK which were built in the 80s seem to be much happier places all around.
Why are the MPs doing it, anyway? Pressure from property companies? There can't be that many votes in city centre business districts.
At the start of Camden Council, Labour was dominated by St. Pancras. St. Pancras' concerns were housing and employment rights. By 1986, it was dominated by Hampstead. Hampstead's concerns were women' issues, CND, and anti-apartheid.
The idea that the government would keep siding with them over management to make shit cars in a shit way was at best a pipe dream.
Lots of jobs lost.
Essentially a lot of retail spend is relocating (and has already done so), very, very sharply.
I'd agree with the law being tightened up but an outright ban of something most people involved like seems unwise.
Headline - 12
7 days - 6 - lots of back dating
Yesterday - 0
Exclusive zero hour contracts were abusive and outlawed years ago.
So, the Tories pander to the grey vote (because that is their base) and ignore the Millennials who, by and large, do not vote Tory.
Labour's policies have, until recently, been aimed squarely at the Marxist Revival with the usual dislocation from reality that is required.
The Lib Dems have their head wedged up where the sun does not shine. That leaves the fruit-cake parties and the ones that skate on the edge of legality and decency.
Anyone who is not a camp-follower therefore winds up having nothing to appeal to them and the resulting policy vacuum allows all sorts of egregious nonsense to happen because none of the politicians give a d*mn about anything outside their laser-focused-dog-whistle targets.
It is a complete failure of politics.
Staff will return to offices, for some it may even be 5 days per week, but for many others the time spent in the offices will be a limited. I'm not aware of one senior director or CEO that I know who thinks the office will ever return to what it was. The office will be a place for creative interaction that can't yet be truly replicated virtually.
Employees are being asked how they see themselves working in future.Both internal company and external engagement with partners and customers is going mainly virtual. I know for ourselves, 90% of activity was carried out face to face with those we worked with. Every indication that post pandemic it will shift the other way. No-one sees themselves travelling hours for a meeting except in exceptional circumstances. No one is sad to be losing 5 days of the commute a week.
So the economic model and hospitality and service businesses will have to adapt and change location or their business model. City and town centres need radical rethinking and reshaping.
These are not forces that government can hold back like King Canute.
Time to think radical and build a society around a changing paradigm. The pandemic has advanced the home working or rather the work from anywhere revolution by 20 years in 5 months.
31-38 mins maybe
But German industrial policy is about much more than workers on boards, and evolving those kinds of structures is perhaps as much, or more about culture as it is about legislation.
As as has been pointed out recently, Germany seems to be a pretty unequal society, at least in terms of wealth, too.
The Berlin Wall and 911 were more like "events" - they happened elsewhere and were over with quickly even though they had longer lasting aftermaths.
I guess that Covid would qualify as it has had a direct effect on me and those I know, is prolonged and the outcome is not clear. If you where to combine Covid, No-Deal Brexit and economic mismanagement as a prolonged 5 to 10 year thing then I think we have covered all the bases.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1PHpkdvNOs
I would suggest that anyone working more than a few months on a ZHC should be given the right to switch to a fixed hours contract if they choose to do so.
There is a big difference to being on a ZHC where the employee chooses the hours, to one where the boss does.
and
So, it worked for me and, without being zero hours, they'd never have been able to provide the work - they essentially didn't have any money, the university would not have allowed them to advertise a fixed hours post without them having a pot of money to cover it because of the liabilities that would have entailed. In principle, I tend to be against zero hours contracts in most places they were used but, for me, they were a very positive thing (I accept that I was atypical, pay was in the £30k FTE range and I had other income from the contracting work, no dependents, no mortgage etc).
There is a place for zero hours, but they're also potentially abusive. I'm not sure what the solution is or whether there necessarily is one.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082222/
(Lech Walesa even appears as himself in a bit part.)
For me IIRC just before Gulf 1 there was a time when it was thought that Iran and Iraq would come together to fight the infidel, thus occasioning a literal clash of civilisations. A cultural war, but a hot one, not just one conducted in the Graun Opinion section.
And they didn't close their schools so they haven't got a cohort of badly educated, socially-traumatised kids.
I guess we cannot presume that all Bernie's supporters will back Biden come November. Bernie's former Co-Chair, Nina Turner, described the choice between Trump and Biden as 'You have a bowl of sh1t in front of you, and all you've got to do is eat half of it instead of the whole thing.'
Inter alia, it will mark the decisive moment when supreme power passed from the West to the East.